ISLAM - ask your questions

[islamvslizards]

hello, and peace be on you all.

im a big time fan of david icke, and yep, im a muslim. and whats more i know enough to talk about islam and "conspiracy" theories and all kinds of funky stuff.

so if you have any questions, feel free, ill answer using as many "islamic" sources as i can, you would be suprised at how much you guys dont know.

[size_of_light]

Hi mr vs.

Who or what are the Jinn?
What does Islam have to say about other religions?
What does Islam have to say about committing acts of violence?

Thanks.

[synergy777]

hello bro, heres a question.

what does islam think of sikhs?

[islamvslizards]

hiya size_of_light and synergy777, ive been a LONG TIME stalker of this site so feel like i know u all already :) for filthy hellbound western devil infidels you guys are alright lol

SOL:

Jinns are a manner of being that exist on earth, somehow in the same space as us, but not interacting with us generally. what we call "shaytaan" or "iblees" (they are interchangeable), what the bible calles "the devil", WASNT a fallen angel, he was a JINN who after thousands of years of devotion to god (according to the quran) was elevated to a status above that of regular angels, however he refused to bow to adam, and was cast out of heaven.

the quran says the following:

[18.50] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.

its actually a really big topic, the jinn. but yeah, they can shapeshift.

to sum up the difference between jinn and men, Jinn were made from FIRE while man (adam) was made from CLAY

so when allah/god/flying spaghetti monster created adam, he instructed all angels and iblis to prostrate before adam, iblis said "hold up buddy, why shud i bow before him, this dudes made from dirt im from fire", which caused him to be cast out.

does that answer ur question? sorry its a pretty big thing to tackle in 1 post lol.

Q:What does Islam have to say about other religions?

loaded question :)

the quran was revealed throughout the prophets life, when certain events happened. some of the passages were revealed just before a battle, which the prophet had to win or be annhialated. if taken outta context (the context being god saying dont negotiate, you have to fight and win), it gives the impression that islam is saying kill everyone wherever u see em, subjugate all, wipe em out, holy war and so on.

in truth, thats total bullcrap spread by the saudi wahabbi propaganda machine, whose fruits we can all see in todays taleban and other militant organisations.

the actual view on other religions was summed up by the fourth islamic caliph, ali, where he said to his friend:

Remember, Maalik, (his friend who he wrote this letter to) that amongst your subjects there are two kinds of people: those who have the same religion as you have; they are brothers to you, and those who have religions other than that of yours, they are human beings like you.

see the whole letter here (http://www.nahjulbalagha.org/LetterDetail.php?Letter=53)


Q:What does Islam have to say about committing acts of violence?

the thing is, islam isnt a pacifist religion. yeah we are taught to have patience, and stay calm, and we are never allowed to start an OFFENSIVE war, but when you HAVE to resort to violence, then how can that be a sin?

i think malcolm X said it pretty well, although his views are a little extreme and slanted towards the NOI:

"There is nothing in our book, the Koran, that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That’s a good religion."
"Message to the Grass Roots," speech, Nov. 1963, Detroit (published in Malcolm X Speaks, ch. 1, 1965).

synergy777:

they are not ahle kitaab (people of the book, i.e. people who prophets from adam to mohammed were sent to guide), so muslims cannot intermarry with them, but they should be respected for their beliefs as fellow humans (see my previous quote from the fourth caliph ali).

however in their book there does seem to be passages or bits and pieces of islamic text. there is a theory by some that guru nannak was actually a shiite muslim, or sufi, who visited the kaaba during his life.

i hope these answer your questions?

[synergy777]

hiya size_of_light and synergy777, ive been a LONG TIME stalker of this site so feel like i know u all already :) for filthy hellbound western devil infidels you guys are alright lol

SOL:

Jinns are a manner of being that exist on earth, somehow in the same space as us, but not interacting with us generally. what we call "shaytaan" or "iblees" (they are interchangeable), what the bible calles "the devil", WASNT a fallen angel, he was a JINN who after thousands of years of devotion to god (according to the quran) was elevated to a status above that of regular angels, however he refused to bow to adam, and was cast out of heaven.

the quran says the following:

[18.50] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.

its actually a really big topic, the jinn. but yeah, they can shapeshift.

to sum up the difference between jinn and men, Jinn were made from FIRE while man (adam) was made from CLAY

so when allah/god/flying spaghetti monster created adam, he instructed all angels and iblis to prostrate before adam, iblis said "hold up buddy, why shud i bow before him, this dudes made from dirt im from fire", which caused him to be cast out.

does that answer ur question? sorry its a pretty big thing to tackle in 1 post lol.

Q:What does Islam have to say about other religions?

loaded question :)

the quran was revealed throughout the prophets life, when certain events happened. some of the passages were revealed just before a battle, which the prophet had to win or be annhialated. if taken outta context (the context being god saying dont negotiate, you have to fight and win), it gives the impression that islam is saying kill everyone wherever u see em, subjugate all, wipe em out, holy war and so on.

in truth, thats total bullcrap spread by the saudi wahabbi propaganda machine, whose fruits we can all see in todays taleban and other militant organisations.

the actual view on other religions was summed up by the fourth islamic caliph, ali, where he said to his friend:

Remember, Maalik, (his friend who he wrote this letter to) that amongst your subjects there are two kinds of people: those who have the same religion as you have; they are brothers to you, and those who have religions other than that of yours, they are human beings like you.

see the whole letter here (http://www.nahjulbalagha.org/LetterDetail.php?Letter=53)


Q:What does Islam have to say about committing acts of violence?

the thing is, islam isnt a pacifist religion. yeah we are taught to have patience, and stay calm, and we are never allowed to start an OFFENSIVE war, but when you HAVE to resort to violence, then how can that be a sin?

i think malcolm X said it pretty well, although his views are a little extreme and slanted towards the NOI:

"There is nothing in our book, the Koran, that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That’s a good religion."
"Message to the Grass Roots," speech, Nov. 1963, Detroit (published in Malcolm X Speaks, ch. 1, 1965).

synergy777:

they are not ahle kitaab (people of the book, i.e. people who prophets from adam to mohammed were sent to guide), so muslims cannot intermarry with them, but they should be respected for their beliefs as fellow humans (see my previous quote from the fourth caliph ali).

however in their book there does seem to be passages or bits and pieces of islamic text. there is a theory by some that guru nannak was actually a shiite muslim, or sufi, who visited the kaaba during his life.

i hope these answer your questions?

i am a sikh, and there are some islamic influences in sikhism. the mool mantra from sikhism and the bismiallah from islam have similar structure/message. sikhism itself draws from hinduism, buddhism and islam.

obviously you know about the history between the islamic mughal empires and india, the conflict/occupation gave birth to sikhism.

i as a sikh, is encouraged to read and understand all religions. the word sikh is sanskrit for disciple/seeker of truth.

i know about islam, and have muslim friends. i too understand the role of the wahabbis's etc.

nice having you onboard bro, welcome.

[octopusrex]

hello, and peace be on you all.

im a big time fan of david icke, and yep, im a muslim. and whats more i know enough to talk about islam and "conspiracy" theories and all kinds of funky stuff.

so if you have any questions, feel free, ill answer using as many "islamic" sources as i can, you would be suprised at how much you guys dont know.

Saalam aleycum,

Give me a list of the principal and most important Laws of Islam, including sources. I am not interested in details, only accuracy.

[islamvslizards]

^^ wa alaikum as salam

er bro, why dont you give me a list of the principal and most important Laws in the british legal system in a single post first, then ill do one for islam lol.

sure you dont wanna be a bit more specific?

[islamvslizards]

i am a sikh, and there are some islamic influences in sikhism. the mool mantra from sikhism and the bismiallah from islam have similar structure/message. sikhism itself draws from hinduism, buddhism and islam.

obviously you know about the history between the islamic mughal empires and india, the conflict/occupation gave birth to sikhism.

i as a sikh, is encouraged to read and understand all religions. the word sikh is sanskrit for disciple/seeker of truth.

i know about islam, and have muslim friends. i too understand the role of the wahabbis's etc.

nice having you onboard bro, welcome.

ah excellent, thanks for the welcome! and sasri akkaar!

yeah i have loads of sikh friends too, you guys are great. my mates tried teaching me gadka but i suck at it, i do know about the gurus and the living gurus, and i respect your way of life and phiolosophy. the 5 Ks and everything.

[octopusrex]

^^ wa alaikum as salam

er bro, why dont you give me a list of the principal and most important Laws in the british legal system in a single post first, then ill do one for islam lol.

sure you dont wanna be a bit more specific?

If a Sufi Leader emerged in the west to kick the ass of all the Sunnis and Shias, what would be left of Islamic Law? What would be the absolute basic necessary social medium to continue being Muslims?

[islamvslizards]

does this answer ur question (all taken from the quran)



[2.2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
[2.3] Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
[2.4] And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
[2.5] These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.



[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.



[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.



[109.1] Say: O unbelievers!
[109.2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[109.3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[109.5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.



[2.263] Kind speech and forgiveness is better than charity followed by injury; and Allah is Self-sufficient, Forbearing.
[2.264] O you who believe! do not make your charity worthless by reproach and injury, like him who spends his property to be seen of men and does not believe in Allah and the last day; so his parable is as the parable of a smooth rock with earth upon it, then a heavy rain falls upon it, so it leaves it bare; they shall not be able to gain anything of what they have earned; and Allah does not guide the unbelieving people.



[4.114] There is no good in most of their secret counsels except (in his) who enjoins charity or goodness or reconciliation between people; and whoever does this seeking Allah's pleasure, We will give him a mighty reward.



is that enough?

[mephibosheth]

If the Quraan, as spoken by an angel, is supposed to be the final and perfect word of God, why is it insufficient to guide Muslim life and practices?

[islamvslizards]

because it isnt the sole source of guidance.

The Messenger of Allah - may Allah bestow peace and benedictions upon him and his Progeny - said: "Verily, I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you: the Book of God and my kindred (`itrah), my household (Ahl al­Bayt), for indeed, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the Pond (of al­Kawthar on the Judgement's Day)."

website that discusses the hadith (http://www.al-islam.org/thaqalayn/nontl/)

the majority of the worlds muslims forget the second half of the prophets saying (follow his ahlebeyt), leading to the cock up of a religion most people follow to this day.

a good film worth watching if you have the time is the arrivals. its the muslim stance on the global elite and powers that be etc.

well worth a look.

the arrivals: (http://www.wakeupproject.com/VList.asp?Series=1)

[mephibosheth]

If God wanted people to follow hadith why aren't the teachings in the hadith revealed in the Quraan? Why is God's instruction not 'the sole source of guidance'? Why should anyone rely on the words and deed of human beings (or angels)?

[mephibosheth]

This by way of contrast. While there are innumerable great Christian writers and philosophers who have no doubt shed light on the various mysteries of the faith, most Christians will think that the Gospels themselves are sufficient as representative of Christ's message (and hence, of God's message of Grace); so, they don't go around reading Augustine or Aquinus.

Some Muslims, however, insist on the authority of hadith and/or sunnah in addition to the revealed word of God. And, what's more, those who adhere only to the teaching of the Quraan itself, so called Quraanites, seem to be held in low regard.

[tgmu]

Hey "islamvslizards,"

What is your point of view on David's writing about organised religion? Which aspects of David's work do you agree with, and disagree with? (If any.)

[picha]

hello, and peace be on you all.

im a big time fan of david icke, and yep, im a muslim. and whats more i know enough to talk about islam and "conspiracy" theories and all kinds of funky stuff.

so if you have any questions, feel free, ill answer using as many "islamic" sources as i can, you would be suprised at how much you guys dont know.

Is it true that the punishment for apostasy in islam is death?

[islamvslizards]

If God wanted people to follow hadith why aren't the teachings in the hadith revealed in the Quraan? Why is God's instruction not 'the sole source of guidance'? Why should anyone rely on the words and deed of human beings (or angels)?

gods instruction was twofold. what would have been the point of revealing a book on its own without sending a guide (or guides) who could understand the qurans literal and allegorical meanings (and the difference between them), and those with the ability to understand it fully (ie the prophets ahlebeyt).

hadith are not separate from the quran, they are ALL based on the quran. the first criteria for any hadith is that it must agree with what the quran says, for example if the quran says "the sky is blue" and a hadith says "the sky is purple", since the hadith goes against the quran the hadith is rejected.

the sunni sect, which is the majority of muslims, have certain "sahih" or infallible books of hadith, bukhari, muslim etc etc. theyre full of all kinds of bullshit. but since most muslims blindly follow the books without a second thought thats what causes the mess we see today.

finally, the "ahlebeyt" were not seen as regular human beings. they were seen as perfect embodiments of what the quran teaches, having been taught directly by the prophet, and the best people to follow since they spent all their time in the prophets household, and learnt more than any companion.

so when it comes to things like sharia - it is actually only the ahlebeyt who can do things like cutting hands off etc, those things shouldnt apply to this day and age since we are not as jood judges or as fair as they were. we are actually instructed to follow the rules of the country we live in.

but again, the majority of muslims dont know this. thank you misinformation and wahabbi (read: america backed) propaganda from saudi arabia

[islamvslizards]

This by way of contrast. While there are innumerable great Christian writers and philosophers who have no doubt shed light on the various mysteries of the faith, most Christians will think that the Gospels themselves are sufficient as representative of Christ's message (and hence, of God's message of Grace); so, they don't go around reading Augustine or Aquinus.

Some Muslims, however, insist on the authority of hadith and/or sunnah in addition to the revealed word of God. And, what's more, those who adhere only to the teaching of the Quraan itself, so called Quraanites, seem to be held in low regard.

you have hit the nail squarely on the head. SOME muslims. unfortunately "some" is now "almost all". there is a core of people who arent like that tho. watch "the arrivals". it will be worth your time.

as for the quraanites, those guys are utter muppets. they believe that every single ayat in the quran is literal no matter what, so if it says something like "god has got the whole world in his hands" it must mean god has two hands and he is holding up the world in them. allegory is a closed book to them, apparantely.

people like the taleban and all these militant little gayboys are more or less quranists. they have taken the quran and removed the guides and replaced them with their own mad mullahs.

[islamvslizards]

Hey "islamvslizards,"

What is your point of view on David's writing about organised religion? Which aspects of David's work do you agree with, and disagree with? (If any.)

i agree with quite a lot actually. i believe that pretty much all religions have been infiltrated and distorted beyond recognition. i also believe in the global agenda, 13 bloodlines, sinister plans, RFID chips, im having trouble with the whole shapeshifting lizards thing tho, its POSSIBLE that they could be jinns, but jinns can be good or bad, they will end up in the same heaven and hell as the rest of us, so how can some enter heaven if they are all evil blood drinking monsters?

[islamvslizards]

Is it true that the punishment for apostasy in islam is death?

another loaded question lol ;)

firstly remember what i said earlier about who can administer that punishment. its not meant to be some mullah in a cave who chooses who lives and who dies.

secondly, its a bit more complicated than that. theres other criteria to take into considerattion first

finally, yeah, one of the ultimate punishments for apostacy is death. if the other criteria are fulfilled.

[axcunningxstunt]

Do you take the Koran as literal truth, as in these things happened, like the splitting of the moon when requested, men living in a cave for 300 years and the miracles?

Also if you do could you tell me/us some of these miracles and why you believe them to be the work of God.

[islamvslizards]

Do you take the Koran as literal truth, as in these things happened, like the splitting of the moon when requested, men living in a cave for 300 years and the miracles?

Also if you do could you tell me/us some of these miracles and why you believe them to be the work of God.

not completelt literal no, see my previous point about the quraanists. the quran itself is pretty clear as to some of it being literal, and some being allegorical, look at this ayat:

[3.7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding

do you see? its up to those "firmly rooted in knowledge" and "those having understanding" (i.e. the ahlebeyt) determining what is literal and what is allegorical. when you take away the ahlebeyt (as sunnis/ wahabbis do) you are pretty much up shit creek without a paddle.

i believe the quran itself is a miracle. mathematically it is flawless. as for the rest, as we say, allahu aalim (god knows best)

[quysant]

not completelt literal no, see my previous point about the quraanists. the quran itself is pretty clear as to some of it being literal, and some being allegorical, look at this ayat:

[3.7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding

do you see? its up to those "firmly rooted in knowledge" and "those having understanding" (i.e. the ahlebeyt) determining what is literal and what is allegorical. when you take away the ahlebeyt (as sunnis/ wahabbis do) you are pretty much up shit creek without a paddle.

i believe the quran itself is a miracle. mathematically it is flawless. as for the rest, as we say, allahu aalim (god knows best)


That's how you see it. Other Muslims see it differently.
So many sects believe they are the "true" Muslims.

If God passed his infinite knowledge through Quran, why should it be so ambiguous?

Quran claim for itself to be 'CLEAR and EASILY UNDERSTOOD:

[2.99] And certainly We have revealed to you clear communications and none disbelieve in them except the transgressors.  
[2.242] Allah thus makes clear to you His communications that you may understand.[Q44:58] Verily, We have made This Quran easy in the tongue, in order that they may give heed.  

So clearly Quran is not what its claim for itself then.
The bottom line is that the guidance, which is supposed to flow from the Quran, simply isn't there, any more than answers to prayer are there.

Why do you say the Quran is miraculous? 

Salaam +

[islamvslizards]

you have a good point. speaking for myself, my own beliefs are that a lot of islam has been infiltrated in many ways by the very same powers they be, irrespective of sect. sunni, shia, yes even sufi.

the belief in the "sahih sittah", and literalist approach just reek of outside infiltration. and just look at this very thread, people are sprouting nonsense from sites like thereligionofpeace which uses bukhari and other "sahih" books, and using that as solid proof the prophet was a paedophile etc etc, and the (sunni/wahabbi) muslims whose beliefs REQUIRE them to believe in the infallibility of these same hadith books, are over a bloody barrel, because they cant agree with what is obviously a pile of crap but to deny it would mean they were not sunni any more.

in truth, there is NO compulsion to follow the infallibility of these hadith books.

as for "true" muslims, thats a can of worms i dont want to go into on this forum lol

the quran isnt gods infinite knowledge, thats a misconception carried over from christianity and judaism, and is against logic. if it contained all information for all things past present and future, then where is mention of ostriches? or the duck billed platypus? or athletes foot? u get me?

the quran is a guide, one half of a guide. the other half is the ahlebeyt.

the quran isnt abiguous, the translations are. added to that it talks about different situations, so where one thing applies in one context, another applies in another.

"clear and easily understood" is referring to the language used man - arabic - it was the language of that place and time that anyone could understand. remember the bible traditionally was in greek then latin no matter what country u were in.

i say the quran is miraculous because of ilm e jafar

see here for a taster but its an enormous topic (http://www.qalandar786.com/ilmejafar.htm)

[lostwonderer]

Not really a question but would like to know more about the kabbah which contained the 360 idols. From what i've read 1 was kept in connection to the moon aspect, hence the symbol for islam is a moon and star. Now i don't know if this is actually true, so information on it will be appreciated.

[size_of_light]

hiya size_of_light and synergy777, ive been a LONG TIME stalker of this site so feel like i know u all already :) for filthy hellbound western devil infidels you guys are alright lol

SOL:

Jinns are a manner of being that exist on earth, somehow in the same space as us, but not interacting with us generally. what we call "shaytaan" or "iblees" (they are interchangeable), what the bible calles "the devil", WASNT a fallen angel, he was a JINN who after thousands of years of devotion to god (according to the quran) was elevated to a status above that of regular angels, however he refused to bow to adam, and was cast out of heaven.

the quran says the following:

[18.50] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.

its actually a really big topic, the jinn. but yeah, they can shapeshift.

to sum up the difference between jinn and men, Jinn were made from FIRE while man (adam) was made from CLAY

so when allah/god/flying spaghetti monster created adam, he instructed all angels and iblis to prostrate before adam, iblis said "hold up buddy, why shud i bow before him, this dudes made from dirt im from fire", which caused him to be cast out.

does that answer ur question? sorry its a pretty big thing to tackle in 1 post lol.


Do you think there's a connection between the Jinn and depictions and stories of 'reptillian' or serpent-like beings down through history in many different cultures?
Also wondering if you're aware of any Muslim mystics or scholars who might have had something to say on this issue. Thanks (and welcome).

[dlb2007]

Does Islam mean - Belief in One God?

Does Muslim mean - s/he who believes in one God?

Does Muslims mean - Those who believe in one God?

I was told by a muslim they do

If this is so, arnt Jews and Christians also Muslims...... and Judiasm and Christianity Islam as well?

[islamvslizards]

hiya

this has been refuted a few times by more reliable scholars. the symbol of the moon and the star if nothing else seem to be highlighting the opposition to the sun centred religions which precede it.

the standard belief tho is because the muslim calendar is a lunar calendar and muslims were highly developed navigators of the stars.

as for the kaaba, its history is pretty well recorded. it was first built by the prophet abraham, who was a monotheist (i think we can all agree here?) and the ownership remained within his family, right down to the prophet muhammed (pbuh). this in itself refutes the claim that it was originally dedicated to idol worship. on top of that, at that time in arabia there werent actually shaped idols like we see today, but things like stone obelisks and similar stuff that were dedicated to gods.

there was a steady influx of different groups of people over the years, who grew in power. they took their religion as a mix of Ugarits, Hittites, Egyptians, Phoenicians, you know people like them. while ownership remained ultimately within the prophets family, the power and influence of the people attracted to mecca over the years meant slowly, bit by bit, idols started popping up in the kaaba.


would you like an islamic view on its history?



as for the supposed "al-lat" being "allah", the quran says this firstly:

[53.19] Have you then considered the Lat and the Uzza,
[53.20] And Manat, the third, the last?
[53.21] What! for you the males and for Him the females!
[53.22] This indeed is an unjust division!
[53.23] They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord.

[islamvslizards]

bro this is a massive topic. what sources would you prefer? theres a wealth of info i can get for you.

personally, i think its POSSIBLE that reptillians = jinn, however theres a heaven and a hell for jinn, the same as muslims, and from what ive read all reptillians are nobs, so how can they enter heaven?

[islamvslizards]

Does Islam mean - Belief in One God?

a bit more than that, but thats definately up there with the main beliefs. things like belief in the last day (judgement day) and prophethood of muhammed are also vital.

people that believe in 1 god and prophets adam to mohammed (ie jews, christians) are known as "ahle kitaab", or "people of the book". they recieved a prophet who came with a divinely inspired book, but when the book was changed or infiltrated, a new prophet came with a book with the original message, down the ages. the quran (it is believed) is protected from alterations, due to its mathematical miracle preventing any changes.

other monotheists, like for examples sikhs, or some hindus etc, or even some polytheists, they will be judged by god according to how well they lived their own lives, according to the rules they followed.

[quysant]

Not really a question but would like to know more about the kabbah which contained the 360 idols. From what i've read 1 was kept in connection to the moon aspect, hence the symbol for islam is a moon and star. Now i don't know if this is actually true, so information on it will be appreciated.

Allah was a name of deity before the arrival of Islam, pre-Islamic Pagan peoples worshipped Allah as their supreme deity (moon-god).
Some of the names/titles were Sin, Hubal, Ilumquh, Al-ilah, (depending on the tribe).

In ancient Arab Allah was considered to be the supreme God/deity and Arab Pagans worshipped Allah before Islam arrived.


They worshipped the sun, moon and the stars. There were 360 Idols/Gods in the Kaaba.

Mohammed's own father was called Abdullah which means servant of Allah; Islam did not yet exist.

To this day pilgrims that go to the Kaaba are supposed to kiss a vagina shaped object(Black Stone), run around it seven times and throw pebbles at the Devil.

[islamvslizards]

woah there buddy, didnt i just say the kaaba was built by abraham?

allah = god. thats like saying "no one knew the name "god" before jesus came".

monotheistsic religions existed from the time of abraham, sorry to burst your bubble. all this theory about moongods and idols and whatnot only popped up in the last decade or two.

[quysant]

the quran isnt abiguous, the translations are. added to that it talks about different situations, so where one thing applies in one context, another applies in another.

"clear and easily understood" is referring to the language used man - arabic - it was the language of that place and time that anyone could understand. remember the bible traditionally was in greek then latin no matter what country u were in.


Much of the Quran is incomprehensible even to Arabic speakers.

So far two known manuscripts of the Quran exist that have the possibility of being the Uthmanic Quran. One resides in Tashkent , Uzbekistan that only contains sura 2 to 43. Another is the Topkapi Manuscript of Istanbul , Turkey.

Both were written on parchment and in the Kufic script. Modern Quranic experts, including Martin Lings and Yasin Hamid Safadi, agree that the Kufic script did not appear until 790 AD and later. So, these two books have the remote possibility of being one of Uthmanic books.

According to some scholars, if the Quran had been composed in the seventh century, it should have been written in either the Ma'il or Masheq script. There is one Quran in the British Library in London that was written in the
Ma'il script and it is believed to be the oldest Quran in our possession today. However, Martin Lings, a practising Muslim and the former curator for the manuscript of the British Library, certified that the Quran in question dates back to the end of the eighth century.



i say the quran is miraculous because of ilm e jafar

see here for a taster but its an enormous topic (http://www.qalandar786.com/ilmejafar.htm)

There is nothing miraculous in "ilm e jafar" that is not in the Qabalah and the Zohar or for that matter in Dante's Divine Commedy

[quysant]

woah there buddy, didnt i just say the kaaba was built by abraham?

allah = god. thats like saying "no one knew the name "god" before jesus came".

monotheistsic religions existed from the time of abraham, sorry to burst your bubble. all this theory about moongods and idols and whatnot only popped up in the last decade or two.


Mohammed's own father was called Abdullah which means servant of Allah; Islam did not yet exist.

Before Islam The Moon was the great divinity of the Arabs. One name was "Cabar" or the Great; the Kabah was a temple dedicated to the Moon..

Arab women still insist that the moon is the parent of mankind.

The Shrine of the sacred stone in Mecca,was known as the 'Old Woman': worshipped by the Quraish tribe.

Priests of the Kaaba are still known as Sons of the "Old Woman."

The word imam is related to Semitic ima, 'mother.'

Hubal was the top pagan moon god of the Kabah. The Arabs referred to "Hubal" as "Allah"(the God), just like Jews would refer to "Jehovah" as "Adoni (the Lord)".

The Bedouins based their primitive calendar on the movement of the moon; their religious and communal ceremonies were all arranged according to the moon's position and phases. Arabs considered moon as their highest deity--Allah Taalaa-the supreme God.

The Bedouin's astral beliefs centred upon the moon, in whose light he grazed his flocks. Moon-worship implies a pastoral society, whereas sun-worship represents a later agricultural stage. In our own day the Moslem Ruwalah Bedouins imagine that their life is regulated by the moon, which condenses the water vapours, distils the beneficent dew on the pasture and makes possible the growth of plants.(History Of The Arabs, Philip K. Hitti, 1937, p 96-101)

Islam is intimately connected with the moon, all its rituals (Ramadan) are based on the sighting of the moon or on the moon calendar.

074.032 SHAKIR: "Nay; I swear by the moon"

In his explanation of why Allah swears by the moon in Surah 74:32, he comments: "the Moon was worshipped as a deity in times of darkness."

Ramadan has to do with the cycle of the moon (hence ramadan) as the worshipping of the kabbah (black stone) was the worship of a moon goddess.

The Black stone itself was not solely worshipped for that God, most people came there believing it had significance to their particular religions God(s).

The Sabeans became a very dominant religion, even Islam mentions them on par with the Jews and Christians, they had the lunar fasting schedule too.

I do recall that there is quite a lot of evidence and agreement of that, it is even in Britannica in the 'arabian religions' section, specifically saying Islam adopted it.

[druggalo]

ALL religion iz worthless

worshiping defeats the purpose

worship yourself -cuz you are everything that exsist

in america they label the profet mohumand a terrorist
-he waza allright dude from what ive heard
but even malcom x quit phuckin with the nation of islam at one point

STILL

"EYE dont trust religion phuck tha system"
peace to non phixion killin polititions leave his wig twiztid do it for the children kidz with biscuits who aint got no feelingz

[islamvslizards]

Much of the Quran is incomprehensible even to Arabic speakers.


do you speak arabic? it uses archaic language and is about as difficult as reading middle ages english, but its more or less comprehensible.


So far two known manuscripts of the Quran exist that have the possibility of being the Uthmanic Quran. One resides in Tashkent , Uzbekistan that only contains sura 2 to 43. Another is the Topkapi Manuscript of Istanbul , Turkey.


again, you have read something and misunderstood it. the quran was completed and finished DURING THE PROPHETS LIFETIME. it was committed to memory by pretty much every single one of his 100,000 companions. just because it was not compiled together in a formal book format until the caliphate of usman, doesnt mean it didnt exist. for example in the battle of siffeen during the caliphate of ali (after usman) something like 4000 hafiz (memorisors of the quran) were killed, out of a total of 10,000 killed in total.

details like what sort of script or font it was written in are trivial, and ring of desperation, to be honest. what you should remember is that there has been an unbroken chain of memorisors of the entire quran, in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, every generation ever since the time of the prophet.



Both were written on parchment and in the Kufic script. Modern Quranic experts, including Martin Lings and Yasin Hamid Safadi, agree that the Kufic script did not appear until 790 AD and later. So, these two books have the remote possibility of being one of Uthmanic books.

According to some scholars, if the Quran had been composed in the seventh century, it should have been written in either the Ma'il or Masheq script. There is one Quran in the British Library in London that was written in the
Ma'il script and it is believed to be the oldest Quran in our possession today. However, Martin Lings, a practising Muslim and the former curator for the manuscript of the British Library, certified that the Quran in question dates back to the end of the eighth century.


i think ive answered this in my previous point?




There is nothing miraculous in "ilm e jafar" that is not in the Qabalah and the Zohar or for that matter in Dante's Divine Commedy
[/QUOTE]

how do you know what is miraclulous if i havent told anyone just what the miracle actually is yet? :rolleyes:

[islamvslizards]

Mohammed's own father was called Abdullah which means servant of Allah; Islam did not yet exist.

Before Islam The Moon was the great divinity of the Arabs. One name was "Cabar" or the Great; the Kabah was a temple dedicated to the Moon.......


guysant please bring evidence of everything you have just written and we will go from there.

[islamvslizards]

ALL religion iz worthless

worshiping defeats the purpose

worship yourself -cuz you are everything that exsist


should i worship the creator, or the created?

[quysant]

do you speak arabic? it uses archaic language and is about as difficult as reading middle ages english, but its more or less comprehensible.

again, you have read something and misunderstood it. the quran was completed and finished DURING THE PROPHETS LIFETIME. it was committed to memory by pretty much every single one of his 100,000 companions. just because it was not compiled together in a formal book format until the caliphate of usman, doesnt mean it didnt exist. for example in the battle of siffeen during the caliphate of ali (after usman) something like 4000 hafiz (memorisors of the quran) were killed, out of a total of 10,000 killed in total.

details like what sort of script or font it was written in are trivial, and ring of desperation, to be honest. what you should remember is that there has been an unbroken chain of memorisors of the entire quran, in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, every generation ever since the time of the prophet.

Memorisers are also known as "Chinese whisperers"

You are ill informed.
The Quran as we know it was put together by Zaid ibn Thabit as commanded by Caliph Uthman.  

The Quran that exists today is the one Caliph Uthman authorized--all others were burned. There is no way to know whether that one or some other Quran is the authentic words that Jibreel told Muhammad.
The Book of Allah is in fact the Book of Uthman, compiled some 30 years after the death of Muhammad. It is not clear how much is missing and how much has been added.
The Hadiths were collected some two hundred years later.



how do you know what is miraclulous if i havent told anyone just what the miracle actually is yet? :rolleyes:

Because I am cool.

[druggalo]

ever ponder tha idea that you created yourself?

god iz a athiest satan is a business

eye dont trust religion
phuck the system
peace 2 non phixion killin polititionz
leave his wig twiztid
do it for tha children
kidz with biscuits who aint got no feelingz

[scooby85]

Is it true that the punishment for apostasy in islam is death?

why only mention islam when christianity also has the same punishment, being biased again i see...

[islamvslizards]

Memorisers are also known as "Chinese whisperers"

You are ill informed.
The Quran as we know it was put together by Zaid ibn Thabit as commanded by Caliph Uthman.  


yeah you are right. and the 100,000 companions who spent every waking moment with the prophet, listening to his revelations and memorising the quran as and when it was revealed suddenly got mass amnesia even though plenty were still alive at the time and apparantely did nothing to stop it even tho they were told to.

spot on ;)

the versions that were burned were in different dialects of the same quran, not different qurans, if u get me.


The Quran that exists today is the one Caliph Uthman authorized--all others were burned. There is no way to know whether that one or some other Quran is the authentic words that Jibreel told Muhammad.
The Book of Allah is in fact the Book of Uthman, compiled some 30 years after the death of Muhammad. It is not clear how much is missing and how much has been added.


in truth caliph usman did very little nor was he involved in this process, he just took the credi since he was caliph at the time. there was a council of the main hafiz who met, with guidance from the ahlebeyt, and compiled the quran together, and all unanimously agreed, and all the other thousands of hafiz read it and agreed.


The Hadiths were collected some two hundred years later.


correct. which is why i believe islam has been mostly infiltrated because people thing the quran and hadith were simultaneous.


Because I am cool.

cant argue with that

[islamvslizards]

ever ponder tha idea that you created yourself?


if i created myself, and you created yourself, can you please create me angelina jolie right here, right now, naked, sat on my desk, and a bugatti veyron full of cash waiting for me outside.

be quick im waiting.

[quysant]

You can learn about the Quran here:

http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html

[scooby85]

Does Islam mean - Belief in One God?

Does Muslim mean - s/he who believes in one God?

Does Muslims mean - Those who believe in one God?

I was told by a muslim they do

If this is so, arnt Jews and Christians also Muslims...... and Judiasm and Christianity Islam as well?

the literal meaning of a muslim is: someone who submits to the will of allah, meaning the sun, moon, sea, rivers and everything natural can be called muskims as they follow gods instruction to them, the sun has been instructed to give us heat and light and its doing its job etc altho the sun try a bit harder here in england lol

[lostwonderer]

Something else i also wanted to know was, what is the significance of the number 786 in islam?

[islamvslizards]

Something else i also wanted to know was, what is the significance of the number 786 in islam?

each letter has a numerical value, for example a = 1, b = 2, c = 3 and so on. arabic letters have their own numerical values. if you take the letter of every letter in the traditional way to begin any task, bismillah hir rah maa nirr raheem, or (i begin) in the name of allah, the beneficient, the merciful,

and add up all the numbers, you get 786. its kind of a shorthand way of writing the sentence.

in the same way muhammed = 92 and ali = 110

[islamvslizards]

You can learn about the Quran here:

http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html

had a quick scan through it, to be honest within the first 2 chapters that i read, theres nothing that i read that hasnt been refuted to death a million times. its standard cut and paste worthy stuff man.

[turbine]

Do you believe in the crusade to kill the non believers or have them converted?

[mephibosheth]

Islam is intimately connected with the moon, all its rituals (Ramadan) are based on the sighting of the moon or on the moon calendar.

074.032 SHAKIR: "Nay; I swear by the moon"

In his explanation of why Allah swears by the moon in Surah 74:32, he comments: "the Moon was worshipped as a deity in times of darkness."

Ramadan has to do with the cycle of the moon (hence ramadan) as the worshipping of the kabbah (black stone) was the worship of a moon goddess.


By way of comment...

This moon aspect is interesting. It brings to mind some themes found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in which the sons of light are pitted against the sons of darkness. One of the characteristics of the 'true' priests, the sons of light, is that they keep to a solar calendar, to most precisely keep track of sacred days. Those who keep to a lunar calendar are seen as being wayward.

8)

[mephibosheth]

Why is a woman's testimony only worth 1/2 that of a man's?

[islamvslizards]

Do you believe in the crusade to kill the non believers or have them converted?

no, thats sunni/ wahabbi bullshit. the ayats that that is referring to were revealed at a very specific place, at a very specific time, for a very specific reason. taken out of context and mistranslated, they are used by militants. anyone with a kernel of logic would see what they are talking about.

[islamvslizards]

By way of comment...

This moon aspect is interesting. It brings to mind some themes found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, in which the sons of light are pitted against the sons of darkness. One of the characteristics of the 'true' priests, the sons of light, is that they keep to a solar calendar, to most precisely keep track of sacred days. Those who keep to a lunar calendar are seen as being wayward.

8)

erm...you sure thats not a symbolic passage, not meant to be taken literally?

[islamvslizards]

Why is a woman's testimony only worth 1/2 that of a man's?

depends on which testimony you mean and what about? theres loads.

[kingmonkey]

You mentioned earlier about the pedophile thing, where does this come from?

What are the main beliefs of the sufi and their origins?

And what did you mean when you mentioned the mathmatical nature of the qu'ran?

Thanks,

KM.

[islamvslizards]

hiya kingmonkey, is ur real name louis by any chance lol???

You mentioned earlier about the pedophile thing, where does this come from?

mostly from hadith...hadiths which were written at least 200 years after the prophet died. its crazy man. the mainstream (read: sunni/ wahabbi) beliefs is that these hadith books are on a par with the quran in all but name, such is their reliability. whoever was behind these filthy books sure knew what they were doing, the books are ram packed full of some of the pervyest stuff ever.

the bride in question was called aisha. she had an older sister called i believe, asma. asma was 10 years older than aisha. at the migration (hijra) asma was between 22 and 24 years old. aisha married the prophet in the second year of hijra. this makes her between 14 and 16 when she married the prophet, which is pretty normal even by modern standards, considering the age kids are having sex these days.

for some reason, there was a massively funded, well organised and thorough project a few hundred years after the prophets death to introduce all these bullshit hadiths into islam, and make as many people as possible believe that they are nigh on infallible, on pain of apostacy if anyone questioned them.


What are the main beliefs of the sufi and their origins?

And what did you mean when you mentioned the mathmatical nature of the qu'ran?

Thanks,

KM.

sufis are complicated, they mostly have a chain of saints which begins with ali, apart from the nakshabandis who for some reason known only to themselves have one which begins at abu bakr. if you run a search on wikipedia thats more or less accurate (as wiki goes)

[mephibosheth]

erm...you sure thats not a symbolic passage, not meant to be taken literally?

Well, as I recall, the text speaks specifically about how those who keep to a lunar calendar fall into error. I dont think reference to time-keeping is symbolic.

I'd have to have a look see what the context of that passage is...

[tgmu]

i agree with quite a lot actually. i believe that pretty much all religions have been infiltrated and distorted beyond recognition. i also believe in the global agenda, 13 bloodlines, sinister plans, RFID chips, im having trouble with the whole shapeshifting lizards thing tho, its POSSIBLE that they could be jinns, but jinns can be good or bad, they will end up in the same heaven and hell as the rest of us, so how can some enter heaven if they are all evil blood drinking monsters?

I'm glad to see more evidence that we can all get along, despite some differences. :) I have found every Muslim I've met personally to be friendly.

David Icke has said that there are both good and bad reptilians. This would naturally be true - there are good and bad humans, so why would another sentient species be different? The reptilians are said to lack empathy, but this doesn't equate to them all being bad. Does Islam specifically preclude the possibility of other sentient entities existing?

[mephibosheth]

depends on which testimony you mean and what about? theres loads.

From:

[Baqarah 2:282]
Two men shall serve as witnesses; if not two men, then a man and two women whose testimony is acceptable to all. Thus, if one woman becomes biased, the other will remind her.


As Mohammed later says in a hadith, this fact of testimony is evidence of the deficiency of women with regards to religion.

[picha]

another loaded question lol ;)

firstly remember what i said earlier about who can administer that punishment. its not meant to be some mullah in a cave who chooses who lives and who dies.

secondly, its a bit more complicated than that. theres other criteria to take into considerattion first

finally, yeah, one of the ultimate punishments for apostacy is death. if the other criteria are fulfilled.


It wasnt a loaded question, I already knew the punishment is death I just wanted to see if you would be honest enough to admit it.

What kind of a god would want people to be killed for changing their religion? An evil one perhaps?

[islamvslizards]

I'm glad to see more evidence that we can all get along, despite some differences. :) I have found every Muslim I've met personally to be friendly.

David Icke has said that there are both good and bad reptilians. This would naturally be true - there are good and bad humans, so why would another sentient species be different? The reptilians are said to lack empathy, but this doesn't equate to them all being bad. Does Islam specifically preclude the possibility of other sentient entities existing?

yeah, to be honest right, even if theres 100,000 terrorists, 200,000, screw it say half a million howling barbarian muslim "turr-rists" in the world...theres something like ONE BILLION regular muslims in the world. its unfair to assume muslims arent just like you. were human man, and we just wanna get along in peace.

islam is pretty clear that there are LOADS of sentient beings, on this world, and on others. i forget the exact wording but along the lines of almost every major star system has at least one life containing planet circling it. ill see if i can dig it up.

[islamvslizards]

From:

[Baqarah 2:282]
Two men shall serve as witnesses; if not two men, then a man and two women whose testimony is acceptable to all. Thus, if one woman becomes biased, the other will remind her.


As Mohammed later says in a hadith, this fact of testimony is evidence of the deficiency of women with regards to religion.

hmmm firstly thats not the entire ayat, and secondly youve taken it way out of context. the full ayat is this:

[Shakir 2:282] O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other; and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), except when it is ready merchandise which you give and take among yourselves from hand to hand, then there is no blame on you in not writing it down; and have witnesses when you barter with one another, and let no harm be done to the scribe or to the witness; and if you do (it) then surely it will be a transgression in you, and be careful of (your duty) to Allah, Allah teaches you, and Allah knows all things.

when you look at the ayat in the context that it is in, do you get whats being said?

at the time of the prophet, women did not get involved in debt management, as such, it was unusual for them to be dragged into what was essentially a mans role. as such, they were allowed extra support to help them, since they would not normally have been used to these sort of matters.

[islamvslizards]

It wasnt a loaded question, I already knew the punishment is death I just wanted to see if you would be honest enough to admit it.

What kind of a god would want people to be killed for changing their religion? An evil one perhaps?

its a very loaded question. i think i should draw your attention to this ayat first:

[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

and secondly look

theres different criteria. the first if someone converted to islam and then left, thats one thing. the other is if they were born a muslim then left.

the other main difference is peacefully not being a muslim and being cool about it (NOT punishable by death or anything majorly significant if we are honest) and turning against islam and ACTIVELY acting against it, as its enemy or aiding its enemy.

if we look at hadiths we see that the people killed for "apostacy" were not actually killed cos they left islam, but because they were active in trying to destroy islam.

do you get what i mean? maybe apostacy is the wrong word? maybe treason is better?

hardly an evil god :rolleyes:

[mephibosheth]

when you look at the ayat in the context that it is in, do you get whats being said?

at the time of the prophet, women did not get involved in debt management, as such, it was unusual for them to be dragged into what was essentially a mans role. as such, they were allowed extra support to help them, since they would not normally have been used to these sort of matters.


The implication is not that women are unfamiliar with what they are witnessing, but rather that one woman is not sufficient to witness the event. Thus, you need at least two women to equal the witness of one man, ergo, the worth of one woman's testimony is only half that of one man's testimony. Otherwise why make such a distinction?

Further, what about the hadith that reiterates this practice and sees this as clear evidence that women are deficient in religion because they are deficient of mind (in the sense of the value of their witness)?

So is it or is it not the case that women's testimony, in general matters of judiciary, is worth half that of men's?

[mephibosheth]

theres different criteria. the first if someone converted to islam and then left, thats one thing. the other is if they were born a muslim then left.


These are not different criteria.

For one thing, no person is 'born' with a religion attached to them. Religion is not a characteristic feature of human beings like eye colour or predisposition to heart disease.

So, strictly speaking, all persons must convert to Islam, that is, accept Islam, at some point in their life. They must make a choice. Because Islam, like all religions, is a matter of belief, the acceptance of a value-system. There is no compulsion in religion because religion is not something forced upon people by nature. People can quite comfortably and successfully live and die without having a single 'religious' thought. Religion is ALWAYS something imposed on people from outside.

For a second thing, and contrary to the above, many Muslims believe that all human beings are born Muslims, ie, that being Muslims is the natural state for human beings. Hence, ALL people that refuse Islam are in effect those who are 'born Muslim and then left'.

So either it's one way or the other, but in either case, there's only one real option here.

[scooby85]

It wasnt a loaded question, I already knew the punishment is death I just wanted to see if you would be honest enough to admit it.

What kind of a god would want people to be killed for changing their religion? An evil one perhaps?

it was only a matter of time before u put on ur anti islamic drivel on here..

What kind of a god would want people to be killed for changing their religion? An evil one perhaps?

erm maybe the same god of christianity as well? its the same punishment but why only mention islam? vslizard be careful of this compulsive liar, hes just like fm7, eternal spirit and seekthetruth, all that comes out their mouth about islam are lies and vile bnp style propanga picked up from nazi.com or thesun..

if u wanna debate then debate like an adult and research stuff before u copy and paste

[octopusrex]

2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

Crsytal.

[rewind_bo]

thanks for all your responses on these questions - has helped answer a few questions i had been thinking of

[islamvslizards]

The implication is not that women are unfamiliar with what they are witnessing, but rather that one woman is not sufficient to witness the event. Thus, you need at least two women to equal the witness of one man, ergo, the worth of one woman's testimony is only half that of one man's testimony. Otherwise why make such a distinction?

Further, what about the hadith that reiterates this practice and sees this as clear evidence that women are deficient in religion because they are deficient of mind (in the sense of the value of their witness)?

So is it or is it not the case that women's testimony, in general matters of judiciary, is worth half that of men's?

i think the only implications you can find that make womens testimony "half" the value of mens, is when you do not know the customs or the culture at the time. you are judging what was normal at that time, by what is normal at this time.

you are taking a single example of jurispudence (not a core everyday belief like praying etc) mentioned in the quran and using it to prove islam devalues women, when in truth islam gives much more value to women than any other religion.

islams stance is that men and women are equal- not identical. theres a difference. people (usually people who dont understand the full story) have a habit of making a big deal out of nothing.

its a dumb attitude if im honest. people (usually women) see things men do as somehow "better" than what they do, eg working for a living is better than looking after the house, going to war is better than childbirth, and so on.

in truth childbirth carries the SAME rewards for a woman as going to jihaad, and other examples.

if you really are interested in finding out the truth of what "2 womens testimony" actually means, and not just stirring up arguments for arguments sake, then i highly, highly suggest you read this article

a new perspective - testifying and judging (http://www.al-islam.org/wii-persp-edt2/13.htm)

again, if you are actually serious about what 2 women testifying means, then read it. if you have any further questions AFTER reading it, then by all means ask away.

please...dont bother teaching me about hadiths. if a hadith contradicts the quran the hadith is rejected. do you know how many times the quran states that men and women are equal?

there are loads more but to start with the quran says this:

[3.195] So their Lord accepted their prayer: That I will not waste the work of a worker among you, whether male or female, the one of you being from the other; they, therefore, who fled and were turned out of their homes and persecuted in My way and who fought and were slain, I will most certainly cover their evil deeds, and I will most certainly make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; a reward from Allah, and with Allah is yet better reward.

[33.35] Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.

[islamvslizards]

These are not different criteria.

For one thing, no person is 'born' with a religion attached to them. Religion is not a characteristic feature of human beings like eye colour or predisposition to heart disease.

So, strictly speaking, all persons must convert to Islam, that is, accept Islam, at some point in their life. They must make a choice. Because Islam, like all religions, is a matter of belief, the acceptance of a value-system. There is no compulsion in religion because religion is not something forced upon people by nature. People can quite comfortably and successfully live and die without having a single 'religious' thought. Religion is ALWAYS something imposed on people from outside.

For a second thing, and contrary to the above, many Muslims believe that all human beings are born Muslims, ie, that being Muslims is the natural state for human beings. Hence, ALL people that refuse Islam are in effect those who are 'born Muslim and then left'.

So either it's one way or the other, but in either case, there's only one real option here.

im getting the impression more and more from your posts that you are not actually getting what im saying but are just trying to find arguments for the sake of it.

theres a difference between "leaving" islam as a mature adult if you are born into a muslim family and raised as a muslim from birth, this is what i (obviously) meant by being muslim born, and being a muslim convert then leaving. if we look at reliable hadiths the "apostates" who were killed were killed after they joined the enemy armies with the intentions of killing the prophet and his followers.

if people misrepresent this and use it to kill apostates in this day and age, thats their fault. islam is clear. death is for those who fight against islam after apostising.

[islamvslizards]

2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

Crsytal.

dont get what you said boss?

[islamvslizards]

thanks for all your responses on these questions - has helped answer a few questions i had been thinking of

no problemo, if you have any more feel free to ask as many as you want. i promise you i dont bite (often)

[tjohn]

hello, and peace be on you all.

im a big time fan of david icke, and yep, i'm a muslim.No, 'Muslim' is something you believe and something you do, it is not you. and whats more i know enough to talk about islam and "conspiracy" theories and all kinds of funky stuff.

so if you have any questions, feel free, ill answer using as many "islamic" sources as i can, you would be suprised at how much you guys dont know.Frankly, I wouldn't be too surprised at what people who rather than knowing their true essence, think that they are 'Muslim' or any other religion.

[islamvslizards]

No, 'Muslim' is something you believe and something you do, it is not you. Frankly, I wouldn't be too surprised at what people who rather than knowing their true essence, think that they are 'Muslim' or any other religion.

technically, "muslim" means "one who submits (to allah)" so its fine to call myself a muslim, i believe in islam so i could have said "i believe in islam" but instead i chose "im a muslim" (one who submits)

i dont actually understand the second half of what u said john

[kingmonkey]

Hello again,

I asked you a few questions yesterday; you didn't answer the third one about the mathmatically perfect nature of the qu'ran...Can you? As it sounds interesting...

[islamvslizards]

oh bro im sorry, i totally missed the third one!

ok

its like this. give each letter in the arabic alphabet a numerical value, similar to a = 1, b = 2, c = 3 and so on.

now, on every single page of the quran, if you add up all the values of all the numbers corresponding to each letter on that page, you get usually a 4 or 5 or 6 digit number. if you add THOSE digits up you eventually get a 2 digit number. the same number. for every page in the quran.

ask anyone who knows any arabic, it is a PHOENOMENALLY delicate language, there are more letters than the english one, and added to that each letter can have six accent marks changing its sound and the meaning of the word. it takes around 10 years to learn the language fully just to speak it, let alone understand it lol.

i mention that, because even if you change a single letter, or add a single letter or take one away (let alone adding or subtracting whole sentences) it will change the meaning of the word, and the numerical value of the page and every page after it, rendering the entire quran worthless. it is a bit more complicated than this but ive kept it simple to give you the main points.

for this reason, we believe, the quran cannot be altered or changed, i.e. is the same as was revealed to mohammed, and far beyond the capabilities of anyone in caliph usmans time.

added to this are the other mathematical funkiness. not really miracles but still kinda cool. take a look:

ignore the rest of the site just check out the stats tho (http://www.submission.org/math-ap1.html)

[thirdwave]

hello, and peace be on you all.

im a big time fan of david icke, and yep, im a muslim. and whats more i know enough to talk about islam and "conspiracy" theories and all kinds of funky stuff.

so if you have any questions, feel free, ill answer using as many "islamic" sources as i can, you would be suprised at how much you guys dont know.

What are you views on the institutions that force the Koran on people?

for example in many places women would be punished for showing their hair... and men punished for being unholy....

Does the Koran promote free will and choice?.. if so where do we see this?

Second of all, why does the Koran not offer equil rights to women?, why is the body treated so seriously when it is simply our temple... where man and women both have temples.

[thirdwave]

technically, "muslim" means "one who submits (to allah)" so its fine to call myself a muslim, i believe in islam so i could have said "i believe in islam" but instead i chose "im a muslim" (one who submits)

i dont actually understand the second half of what u said john

this brought about another question...


does that not mean that humans are naturally bad?.. and must submit to another's will in order to be seen as good?


Why does the human race deserve life if in order to be good they have to submit to another? ... do you believe there will be a time where man will not need to submit to another in order to be decent beings?

[islamvslizards]

What are you views on the institutions that force the Koran on people?


they are the scum of humanity, a cancer on society, filth, vile, evil bastards. there is NO compulsion in islam - NONE.


for example in many places women would be punished for showing their hair... and men punished for being unholy....


you are talking about militants like the taliban, whose beliefs trace back to saudi, i.e. the wahabbis, whose beliefs trace back to the us, whose beliefs trace back to the powers that be.

just because those pigs do it, doesnt make it halal.



Does the Koran promote free will and choice?.. if so where do we see this?


this is a hotly discussed philosophical topic, and one that cant be answered in a few lines. to summarise, sunnis/wahabbis believe we are completely and utterly following a fixed destiny set by god that we cant change.

obviously this doesnt make any sense, since what would be the point of heaven or hell if we are only following gods plan?

the shia belief is that there are some things that god controls, and some he doesnt. we wont get judged on what we dont control (eg where we are born, what time etc etc), but the things we can control (our choices in life).

an analogy used by the 6th imam, jafar sadiq, was he asked a man to raise his right leg, the man obviously could, then he told the man to raise his left leg at the same time, and he couldnt. the imam said that was the ratio between what man controls and what god controls.



Second of all, why does the Koran not offer equil rights to women?, why is the body treated so seriously when it is simply our temple... where man and women both have temples.

it does. theres a difference between "equal" and "identical" tho. for example a man is allowed to pray without a shirt on, bare chested. a woman isnt. this doesnt mean that the woman is being degraded.

men have their roles, and their rights. women have their roles, and their rights. women in islam can run businesses, own property, be independant (see the prophets own wife khatija), but where they are restricted is places it is not natural for them to be, such as for example in a battlefield

[islamvslizards]

this brought about another question...


does that not mean that humans are naturally bad?.. and must submit to another's will in order to be seen as good?


no, original sin is a christian doctrine, not a muslim one. muslims believe everyone is born naturally good and pure and innocent.

if someone is born into a muslim family, its cool. if they are not, then they are seen as good or bad according to THEIR standards. islam, despite what the saudi propaganda machine pushes, is NOT a totalitarian religion. the prophet never offensively invaded anywhere to expand his borders or gain land. that was done by caliphs after he died.


Why does the human race deserve life if in order to be good they have to submit to another? ... do you believe there will be a time where man will not need to submit to another in order to be decent beings?

see my previous point. heaven isnt a nightclub only muslims have access to. it says numerous times in the quran that allah knows our INTENTIONS, and on judgement day its our INTENTIONS that will be judged, i.e. if you arent a muslim but you be a decent human being with the intention of doing good on earth, you will be judged according to that.

as for submission to the will of allah, it gets a bit complicated because it depends on how you recieve the information on islam and who from and all kinds of things.

basically tho, it boils down to - be the best person you can according to your own heart and mind, and leave the rest to god.

[thirdwave]

they are the scum of humanity, a cancer on society, filth, vile, evil bastards. there is NO compulsion in islam - NONE. Well I much prefer your take on it.

you are talking about militants like the taliban, whose beliefs trace back to saudi, i.e. the wahabbis, whose beliefs trace back to the us, whose beliefs trace back to the powers that be.

just because those pigs do it, doesnt make it halal.

I am open to the fact that from what we see here in the west of it made out to be much worse so people are less objective to Wars over there and so on... brainwashing..so on...

Although It concerns me how religion as a whole has always had this.. and it is a constant thorn in mankind's side.



it does. theres a difference between "equal" and "identical" tho. for example a man is allowed to pray without a shirt on, bare chested. a woman isnt. this doesnt mean that the woman is being degraded.

men have their roles, and their rights. women have their roles, and their rights. women in islam can run businesses, own property, be independant (see the prophets own wife khatija), but where they are restricted is places it is not natural for them to be, such as for example in a battlefield

I have not really read the Koran so cant really comment, I only go buy what I see, which is a view from the West I agree... though for me I find even if a religion is good, it still creates vulnerability... and if everyone on the earth had their own religion that was good then the vulnerability would vanish.

no, original sin is a christian doctrine, not a muslim one. muslims believe everyone is born naturally good and pure and innocent.

if someone is born into a muslim family, its cool. if they are not, then they are seen as good or bad according to THEIR standards. islam, despite what the saudi propaganda machine pushes, is NOT a totalitarian religion. the prophet never offensively invaded anywhere to expand his borders or gain land. that was done by caliphs after he died.

[QUOTE]
see my previous point. heaven isnt a nightclub only muslims have access to. it says numerous times in the quran that allah knows our INTENTIONS, and on judgement day its our INTENTIONS that will be judged, If this is so then I can respect that...

the thing is, like many texts in the bible, there are some very wise and decent words from a person you could picture being very peacfull.. but there are also other texts that can contradict ... almost like a book of good and a book of evil mixed together... and it seems most religions have this...

i.e. if you arent a muslim but you be a decent human being with the intention of doing good on earth, you will be judged according to that.
This is how I see it... all should be permitted as long as ones will is good and does not harm others will.

as for submission to the will of allah, it gets a bit complicated because it depends on how you receive the information on islam and who from and all kinds of things.

basically though, it boils down to - be the best person you can according to your own heart and mind, and leave the rest to god.

I agree with that outlook and Im sure it serves you well, its just a shame so many others see it a different way than you do.

[islamvslizards]

Well I much prefer your take on it.

I am open to the fact that from what we see here in the west of it made out to be much worse so people are less objective to Wars over there and so on... brainwashing..so on...


thanks. i could have said what i really think of them, but, u know. forum rules lol.

the thing is, the brainwashing goes both ways, and both sides controlled by the same people. here in the west all you ever hear is muslims are wild woman hating barbarians out to do nothing but breed like rabbits, take over the UK converting all to islam and beheading disbelievers and who "hate our freedom" (lol), in the east the west is seen as the evil enemy, stealing all the resources, invading the countries, helping israel etc etc etc.

who gets stuck in the middle? people like you and me who dont have anything to do with anything.



Although It concerns me how religion as a whole has always had this.. and it is a constant thorn in mankind's side.


you are right, and i fully believe that islam has been mainly infiltrated via the wahabbi/ sunni belief system, and it is those people who are twisting the thorn in all our sides.

the shia system has been infiltrated too by the way, i dont think they are immune. but to a lesser extent. the shia nation has been a harder nut to crack but its getting there. flash enough money even the highest mullahs will get tempted.


I have not really read the Koran so cant really comment, I only go buy what I see, which is a view from the West I agree... though for me I find even if a religion is good, it still creates vulnerability... and if everyone on the earth had their own religion that was good then the vulnerability would vanish.


yeah, if you see the article i posted earlier "a new perspective" it should hopefully clear up a lot of misconceptions.


the thing is, like many texts in the bible, there are some very wise and decent words from a person you could picture being very peacfull.. but there are also other texts that can contradict ... almost like a book of good and a book of evil mixed together... and it seems most religions have this...


yeah that can be explained. the quran wasnt revealed all in one go, it was revealed bit by bit over 20 or so years, after certain events. the very few ayats that were revealed on the eve of a major battle do indeed say violent stuff, but they are very clear that they apply only to that situation at that time to those people. its easy to take them out of context, but in truth the prophet was about to be killed and his people annhialated, so it was kill or be killed by enemies who knew it was end game.

in reality of day to day living, muslims lived side by side with all faiths. do you know the fourth caliph ali, used to work for a jew in a date orchard for a living? even when he was caliph?

hardly a totalitarian religion man.

peace.

[quysant]

yeah that can be explained. the quran wasnt revealed all in one go, it was revealed bit by bit over 20 or so years, after certain events. the very few ayats that were revealed on the eve of a major battle do indeed say violent stuff, but they are very clear that they apply only to that situation at that time to those people. its easy to take them out of context, but in truth the prophet was about to be killed and his people annhialated, so it was kill or be killed by enemies who knew it was end game.

peace.

Are you a Muslim? or are you working against Muslims?

The historical context argument is not available in fact to Muslims, since the Quran is the eternal word of God, true and valid for always.
Thus for Muslims themselves there is no historical context. 

If suras are contextual then it is not an eternal message.

The eternal words of God:

4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise. 

9:73 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. 

[oiram]

"islamvslizards" I worked long time in Indonesia & had some good talks about there Religion & Holy book!
One of my engineer studys the Koran & he was a very opened minded person which is hard to find in Muslim land!

He told me once that Islam would split into 273 individual groups up to the end times prediction but only one group would really represent the true Islam.

I can not remember where he has taken his information from.

He told me but I forgot. But I am sure about the number 273 different Islamic groups.

Do you know about this prediction is it part of your Koran or has he taken it from other Scripture?

But one thing is fact Indonesia is a total mess in regards of Religion very primitive & hypocrites are ruling the land scape!
Lying is a real hobby over here & yes they do there praying regularly.

Oh Christians are not much better in regards of being hypocrites.

If there are any predictions like this I believe it is important for all to know about this. Would be a bit like the revelation in a way.

You have any info on this?

One thing I found very interesting in the Koran; the end times prediction & when the sun rises in the West which I related to the Poll shift which would make sense "right." Aren't we due for a Poll Shift?

If North becomes South and East becomes West then the end-times are completed.

So where did the once which have written all the books get there information from. Repetition of cycles recorded in the past?

Thanks.

[mephibosheth]

im getting the impression more and more from your posts that you are not actually getting what im saying but are just trying to find arguments for the sake of it.


No, its a simple point. Religion is not something a person is born with.



theres a difference between "leaving" islam as a mature adult if you are born into a muslim family and raised as a muslim from birth, this is what i (obviously) meant by being muslim born, and being a muslim convert then leaving.

What's the difference then? Either a person accepts the religion or not, rejects it or not. Circumstances of birth are irrelevant, except for the obvious social pressure to conform to the standards of one's environment (thats prevelant in all social environments). In this sense, we might say people born into a religious community have less choice than those who enter into the community later in life.

[mephibosheth]

You didn't answer my question.

Pretty simply, is it or is it not the case that women's testimony, in general matters of judiciary, is worth half that of men's?

Is this the standard for Islamic courts in matters of testimony or not?




i think the only implications you can find that make womens testimony "half" the value of mens, is when you do not know the customs or the culture at the time. you are judging what was normal at that time, by what is normal at this time.

you are taking a single example of jurispudence (not a core everyday belief like praying etc) mentioned in the quran and using it to prove islam devalues women, when in truth islam gives much more value to women than any other religion.

islams stance is that men and women are equal- not identical. theres a difference. people (usually people who dont understand the full story) have a habit of making a big deal out of nothing.

its a dumb attitude if im honest. people (usually women) see things men do as somehow "better" than what they do, eg working for a living is better than looking after the house, going to war is better than childbirth, and so on.

in truth childbirth carries the SAME rewards for a woman as going to jihaad, and other examples.

if you really are interested in finding out the truth of what "2 womens testimony" actually means, and not just stirring up arguments for arguments sake, then i highly, highly suggest you read this article

a new perspective - testifying and judging (http://www.al-islam.org/wii-persp-edt2/13.htm)

again, if you are actually serious about what 2 women testifying means, then read it. if you have any further questions AFTER reading it, then by all means ask away.

please...dont bother teaching me about hadiths. if a hadith contradicts the quran the hadith is rejected. do you know how many times the quran states that men and women are equal?

there are loads more but to start with the quran says this:

[3.195] So their Lord accepted their prayer: That I will not waste the work of a worker among you, whether male or female, the one of you being from the other; they, therefore, who fled and were turned out of their homes and persecuted in My way and who fought and were slain, I will most certainly cover their evil deeds, and I will most certainly make them enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; a reward from Allah, and with Allah is yet better reward.

[33.35] Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.

[octopusrex]

dont get what you said boss?

What part of "there is no compusion in religion" do you not get?

[tjohn]

technically, "muslim" means "one who submits (to allah)" so its fine to call myself a muslim, i believe in islam so i could have said "i believe in islam" but instead i chose "im a muslim" (one who submits)

i dont actually understand the second half of what u said johnLook again at what I said at first. I said,No, 'Muslim' is something you believe and something you do, it is not you. Then I said in response to something else you said, Frankly, I wouldn't be too surprised at what people who rather than knowing their true essence, think that they are 'Muslim' or any other religion.Got it now?

[tjohn]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55194&page=3
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=832940&postcount=21

[octopusrex]

When I have questions about Islam, I ask this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th9dbSva5gI


sadly he's dead now... But his lineage still around.

[mephibosheth]

About the Quraan.

How did the addition of vowels and other marks impact the reading of the text?

We know from the Old Testament, that the addition of vowels or vowel choices gives diverse readings, and can change meaning, even dramatically.

[decode reality]

Hi IslamVsLizards, I've got a few questions but I'll give them one at a time.:D

Firstly, I'm a musician and I would be interested to know how you as a muslim view music? The reason I ask is that amongst many muslims, music and dance is seen as being contrary to the religion.

At the same time, I know that many south Asian muslims in the uk love the whole Bollywood scene, they know the songs past and present. And from my limited knowledge on the subject, I'm aware that many of the icons in Indian film music/cinema like Mohammed Rafi and Shahrukh Khan are muslims ('was' in Rafi's case, of course). So why is music still negatively, and dogmatically viewed, in some circles?

Look forward to your answer.

Imani.

[nirvana]

Hi Islamvlizards

Good to see musilms comming on the board. At the end of the day we are all fighting the same enemy.

What do you think of the interfaith movement. This is helping different people of faiths to find alot of common ground.

Ive just watched a film called fitna .I think it maybe just showing one section of Islam .What do you think?
The film was discussed on the jesus army forum , your views would be valid.

http://www.jesus.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3560


Peace:)

[islamvslizards]

Are you a Muslim? or are you working against Muslims?

The historical context argument is not available in fact to Muslims, since the Quran is the eternal word of God, true and valid for always.
Thus for Muslims themselves there is no historical context. 


im a muslim who believes that most of islam has been infiltrated and distorted by the powers that be, and if that makes me sound like a heretic, i dont actually give a toss :) i know the truth and my creator knows.


If suras are contextual then it is not an eternal message.

The eternal words of God:

4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise. 

9:73 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. 

this is the damage caused by not understanding what, where, when and why ayats of the quran were revealed, nor an understanding as to the surrounding ayats and the context they are in.

let me give you an example, using the second ayat you posted,

this is what one set of quranic scholars said (pooya/ ali):

The order is to strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites with arms as well as with words and arguments.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Here and in verse 9 of Tahrim the Holy Prophet has been commanded to fight against the hypocrites as was being done against the disbelievers, but no war was waged against the hypocrites during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet, nor in the times of the first three rulers. The order did not remain unattended, but was carried out by Ali as the Holy Prophet's true successor (see introduction of this surah to know that the command of Allah could only be carried out by the Holy Prophet himself or by one who was from him) in fulfilment of his prophecy that Ali would fight and destroy the nakithin (oath breakers), qasitin (deviators) and mariqin (apostates).

do you see what happens when people take ayats out without fully understanding what they are doing?

[islamvslizards]

"islamvslizards" I worked long time in Indonesia & had some good talks about there Religion & Holy book!
One of my engineer studys the Koran & he was a very opened minded person which is hard to find in Muslim land!

He told me once that Islam would split into 273 individual groups up to the end times prediction but only one group would really represent the true Islam.


hmm i tend to avoid looking into hadiths like that, all we should be, is the best we can be according to the sense we have and leave the rest to god. i think its in bukhari (not the quran) so i am suspicious, considering the rubbish that seems to fill that "holy" book.

[INDENT]
One thing I found very interesting in the Koran; the end times prediction & when the sun rises in the West which I related to the Poll shift which would make sense "right." Aren't we due for a Poll Shift?

If North becomes South and East becomes West then the end-times are completed.

So where did the once which have written all the books get there information from. Repetition of cycles recorded in the past?

Thanks.

thanks for bringing this up :)

again, this isnt the quran, but its a pretty solid and confirmed hadith by all schools in islam, that the sun rising in the west will be a MAJOR trigger for the final battle that is coming. i fully believe that this coincides with the 2012 theory and all that implies.

[islamvslizards]

What's the difference then? Either a person accepts the religion or not, rejects it or not. Circumstances of birth are irrelevant, except for the obvious social pressure to conform to the standards of one's environment (thats prevelant in all social environments). In this sense, we might say people born into a religious community have less choice than those who enter into the community later in life.

the only difference is, their actions after apostisisng. if they for example join the enemy army and attack the army of the prophet, their punishment is death, while other soldiers in the enemy army can get away with their lives most times.

if they live in peace and be cool, then no one will say or do anything.

and anyway, its only the prophet or the ahlebeyt who have the actual right to kill apostates, not regular people. and since the final member of the ahlebeyt, the awaited one, imam mehdi (may god hasten his return) has still not arisen...that means all these lovely little fatwas calling everyone an apostate arent worth the paper they are scrawled upon

[islamvslizards]

You didn't answer my question.

Pretty simply, is it or is it not the case that women's testimony, in general matters of judiciary, is worth half that of men's?

Is this the standard for Islamic courts in matters of testimony or not?

how did i know you would not read the article :rolleyes:

took me ages to find that for you as well you know

[islamvslizards]

About the Quraan.

How did the addition of vowels and other marks impact the reading of the text?

We know from the Old Testament, that the addition of vowels or vowel choices gives diverse readings, and can change meaning, even dramatically.

they havent affected anything - and vowels were not added, in the sense of extra letters or anything like that.

the accents were what were added. since these have no numerical value they do not affect anything, nbut make reading easier.

originally the old testament was written in aramaic or greek, am i right? the difference between arabic and greek is that arabic is a much more "delicate" language, a more sensetive one. its all well and good having diverse sounds but you cant mix and match sounds, because you will just be left with gibberish.

if you bear in mind that the quran was written in a poetic, archaic form, and there has been an unbroken chain of hafiz since it was revealed, and independant centres all over earth confirm its adherence to the original text every time a new quran is printed, and that its such a fine language you cant mess with it, and the mathematical layout of the words, id say its a pretty sure fire way of keeping it from changes.

[islamvslizards]

Hi IslamVsLizards, I've got a few questions but I'll give them one at a time.:D


hiya mate...i appreciate it :D ive been a bit busy this weekend but i do try and answer the questions ASAP during the week, hope i havent kept you waiting too long?


Firstly, I'm a musician and I would be interested to know how you as a muslim view music? The reason I ask is that amongst many muslims, music and dance is seen as being contrary to the religion.


see this view that music is contrary to religion as absolutely daft, yet people seem to believe it. if you watch any hollywood film in history that showed any muslim country even for a second, whats the FIRST soundbite that they play? the call to prayer. isnt that a form of music?

or when people all over the planet recite the quran, isnt that music?

look (and listen):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33PnAuHS22g

in islam, the line is drawn with forms of music that lead to self destruction, eg if you are at risk of doing some sin, as a result of listenin to certain types of music, then those types of music are forbidden for you.

secondly, the people banning music are usually the people who dont understand the power and beauty of music. there are reports of the prophets own wives listening to musicians in bukhari with his knowledge, so i dont see why people get their knickers in a twist in this day and age.


At the same time, I know that many south Asian muslims in the uk love the whole Bollywood scene, they know the songs past and present. And from my limited knowledge on the subject, I'm aware that many of the icons in Indian film music/cinema like Mohammed Rafi and Shahrukh Khan are muslims ('was' in Rafi's case, of course). So why is music still negatively, and dogmatically viewed, in some circles?

Look forward to your answer.

Imani.

islam is a religion that believes that a womans body shouldnt be paraded around for all to see like some cattle market just for the benefit of any passing horny male, she should be given dignity and respect by men, and not have to rely on her looks for people to see her as attractive, but her personality. in bollywood films the women are prancing around wearing pretty much next to nothing apart from bikinis and sarongs, and we see that as an insult to femininity. a woman is viewed as a precious jewel, you have to protect it and care for it, not show it off for all to see.

so in that sense thats why videos of bollywood are frowned upon. its so prevalent because until less than 100 years ago india, pakistan and bangladesh were all the same country and culture was the same for everyone. after all these years south asian muslims cannot shake off the indian culture lol

[islamvslizards]

Hi Islamvlizards

Good to see musilms comming on the board. At the end of the day we are all fighting the same enemy.

What do you think of the interfaith movement. This is helping different people of faiths to find alot of common ground.

Ive just watched a film called fitna .I think it maybe just showing one section of Islam .What do you think?
The film was discussed on the jesus army forum , your views would be valid.

http://www.jesus.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3560


Peace:)

hiya boss. im glad we are all coming together too, muslims arent really the enemy man, im happy people know that on this board. you are absolutely spot on that the enemies are the same, the struggle is the same. we are all in this fight togther. people want to keep muslims apart from the rest of the world because they know the power the people will have once we are united.

ahhhh the good old fitnah film. :p

this is what happens when someone looks into the bullshit filled hadith books, and takes the quran out of context (as ive shown numerous times on this thread alone) and has a political goal.

i saw the film. the only thing that was missing was the statement that all those views are held and promoted by a single sect - the wahabbi (read: us backed) sect in saudi, whose tentacles have spread into almost all other sects and communities, hence why i say islam has been mostly infiltrated.

[islamvslizards]

Look again at what I said at first.

I said,

Then I said in response to something else you said,

Got it now?

yeah. thanks.


http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55194&page=3
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=832940&postcount=21

i havent been to space and i suspect neither have you, so cant comment

When I have questions about Islam, I ask this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th9dbSva5gI


sadly he's dead now... But his lineage still around.

i dont speak german mate, translation?

[mephibosheth]

and anyway, its only the prophet or the ahlebeyt who have the actual right to kill apostates, not regular people.


This is a good point. Isn't there a hadith that specifies this?




how did i know you would not read the article :rolleyes:

took me ages to find that for you as well you know



Ok, thanks for your efforts.



they havent affected anything - and vowels were not added, in the sense of extra letters or anything like that.

the accents were what were added. since these have no numerical value they do not affect anything, nbut make reading easier.

originally the old testament was written in aramaic or greek, am i right? the difference between arabic and greek is that arabic is a much more "delicate" language, a more sensetive one. its all well and good having diverse sounds but you cant mix and match sounds, because you will just be left with gibberish.

if you bear in mind that the quran was written in a poetic, archaic form, and there has been an unbroken chain of hafiz since it was revealed, and independant centres all over earth confirm its adherence to the original text every time a new quran is printed, and that its such a fine language you cant mess with it, and the mathematical layout of the words, id say its a pretty sure fire way of keeping it from changes.


The Old Testament is originally written in Hebrew (and there is a debate about whether the New Testament was first written in Greek or Aramaic, with scholars leaning towards Greek). And originally the Hebrew script did not contain vowels. Interpolating the vowels into the original text can give divergent readings for certain words. For instance, there are debates about God's correct name. I thought that the Arabic script was the same, that originally it was written in a script that did not contain vowels, and so that when these were added later as the written language evolved, it led to some divergent interpretations.


An unrelated question. Why do you use a cresent moon and star as your avatar when these symbols are not really islamic symbols?

Or, more generally, why are these symbols often associated with Islam?

8)

[islamvslizards]

This is a good point. Isn't there a hadith that specifies this?


can you do me a favour, can you leave me to answer this until tomorrow? i have a hazy idea where the hadiths are but need to do a search for them.


The Old Testament is originally written in Hebrew (and there is a debate about whether the New Testament was first written in Greek or Aramaic, with scholars leaning towards Greek). And originally the Hebrew script did not contain vowels. Interpolating the vowels into the original text can give divergent readings for certain words. For instance, there are debates about God's correct name. I thought that the Arabic script was the same, that originally it was written in a script that did not contain vowels, and so that when these were added later as the written language evolved, it led to some divergent interpretations.


yeah but remember, the fact that it wasnt formally compiled into a proper book until during the time of the 3rd caliph (maybe 20-30 years after the prophet died), from the time of the advent of islam when the prophet was around 25 to then, there were many tens of thousands of companions who knew the entire book off by heart. if there were discrepencies then the whole nation would have known about them, however they were cool. you are assuming that mistakes could have crept in when vowels were added, without forgetting the sea of people who knew it off by heart anyway. if even a single word was changed, it would stick out like a sore thumb. they knew the entire quran like christians know the lords prayer.

added to this the ahlebeyt were alive and there making sure it was the right one.


An unrelated question. Why do you use a cresent moon and star as your avatar when these symbols are not really islamic symbols?

Or, more generally, why are these symbols often associated with Islam?

8)

just playing up to the stereotype ya know ;) check my profile info lol

theyre from the ottoman empire i believe.

[mephibosheth]

About music.

I've seen that the sura Luqmaan 31:6 is used to support the idea that music, ie, singing and playing instruments, is haraam. However, looking at a couple of english translations, this doesn't seem all that clear to me. But there seems to be a scholarly consensus about this, even if there are dissenting opinions.

Islamvlizards, what's your take on this sura?

[islamvslizards]

About music.

I've seen that the sura Luqmaan 31:6 is used to support the idea that music, ie, singing and playing instruments, is haraam. However, looking at a couple of english translations, this doesn't seem all that clear to me. But there seems to be a scholarly consensus about this, even if there are dissenting opinions.

Islamvlizards, what's your take on this sura?

hmmm

[31:6] And of men is he who takes instead frivolous discourse to lead astray from Allah's path without knowledge, and to take it for a mockery; these shall have an abasing chastisement.

that ayat is talkin about during the time of the prophet, a pagan homeboy called Nadhr ibn al Harith who went to Syria for trade and brought back stories of Persian heroes, with which he allured the crowds of the Quraysh and persuaded them to believe that his stories were preferable to the word of Allah.

the reason people make the jump between this and music, is because, according to the famous quranic scholar pooya:

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Lahw means idle or amusing discourse which disengages attention from meaningful thought, field of inquiry or argument. On this basis the Ahl ul Bayt have applied the term "lawh al hadith " to music.

to be honest, we dont KNOW what the ahlebeyt said or didnt say for sure about things like this (see my point about corrupt hadiths), but it kinda ties into what i said, that if the music leads you to do a sin, then avoid that music. if it helps you in some way spiritually or other, then how can it be forbidden?

[picha]

hello, and peace be on you all.

im a big time fan of david icke, and yep, im a muslim. and whats more i know enough to talk about islam and "conspiracy" theories and all kinds of funky stuff.

so if you have any questions, feel free, ill answer using as many "islamic" sources as i can, you would be suprised at how much you guys dont know.

Is it true that the ultimate aim of islam is to make the whole world islamic?

Is it true that paradise is not guaranteed for muslims and that the only way you can be sure of paradise is through jihad?

[islamvslizards]

Is it true that the ultimate aim of islam is to make the whole world islamic?


bullshit. thats wahabbi mentality (read: us backed)


Is it true that paradise is not guaranteed for muslims and that the only way you can be sure of paradise is through jihad?

bullshit. thats wahabbi mentality (read: us backed)

[picha]

bullshit. thats wahabbi mentality (read: us backed)



bullshit. thats wahabbi mentality (read: us backed)

So are you saying that wahabbi islam isnt 'true' islam?

If not which 'sect' would you say is following the true islam?

[islamvslizards]

So are you saying that wahabbi islam isnt 'true' islam?


wahabbi islam is a religion of retards. it was invented in the 1800s (as in 200 years ago for f*cks sake! the prophet lived 1500 years ago!!!) by a bastard called muhammed bin abdul wahhab, with the aid and funding of the british government. its conception and spread is very, very well recorded. it has NOTHING to do with islam. NOTHING. it is a made up british (and now US) backed death cult. due to the majority (sunni) muslim worlds general ignorance its influence and teachings leaked into all other sects, but mainly the 4 main sunni ones. shia islam has always stood opposed to it, and shias have been persecuted horribly ever since. i believe that shia sect has been infiltrated too, but not by wahabbis. the powers that be were much more sly with shias. but the first thing they did was assassinate all the great shia leaders, scholars, philosophers, teachers, thinkers and the like.


If not which 'sect' would you say is following the true islam?

formal sunni, and formal shia, both have been infiltrated. shia sect to a much less degree. as for "true" islam, "true" islam is living in peace with yourself, your family, your community and your lord. doesnt matter how you pray or your view on history.

[eternal_spirit]

So are you saying that wahabbi islam isnt 'true' islam?

If not which 'sect' would you say is following the true islam?

Millions of Muslims make a pilgrimage each year to Mecca (Saudi Arabia) the centre and most important sites of the Islamic world. The Saudi's live by the teachings of Mohammed so therefore must be true Muslims.

Also why do all Muslim's face Mecca when they pray? This is just a few reasons why I don't buy it when Muslims say Wahhabi is not true Islam.

Many of the Mosques in Britain are paid/funded by Saudi's and many of the preachers/Imams etc are schooled and trained in Saudi.

In the Kabbah is the meteorite (polished stone) The Kabbah is symbolic of the Masonic perfect ashlar (squared and polished stone building block)

Muslims circumnavigate (circumnambulate "walk around") the Kabbah same as Masons do their altar in the Lodge/Temples. Jews circumnavigate the walls of Jerusalem.

[eternal_spirit]

wahabbi islam is a religion of retards. it was invented in the 1800s (as in 200 years ago for f*cks sake! the prophet lived 1500 years ago!!!) by a bastard called muhammed bin abdul wahhab, with the aid and funding of the british government. its conception and spread is very, very well recorded. it has NOTHING to do with islam. NOTHING. it is a made up british (and now US) backed death cult. due to the majority (sunni) muslim worlds general ignorance its influence and teachings leaked into all other sects, but mainly the 4 main sunni ones. shia islam has always stood opposed to it, and shias have been persecuted horribly ever since. i believe that shia sect has been infiltrated too, but not by wahabbis. the powers that be were much more sly with shias. but the first thing they did was assassinate all the great shia leaders, scholars, philosophers, teachers, thinkers and the like.



formal sunni, and formal shia, both have been infiltrated. shia sect to a much less degree. as for "true" islam, "true" islam is living in peace with yourself, your family, your community and your lord. doesnt matter how you pray or your view on history.

I don't believe that. Because Mohammed your prophet was looting invading destroying, killing, raping, enslaving right from the beginning of Islam.
When Umar ibn al-Khattab (580-644), the second Caliph, came to kiss the Stone, he said in front of all assembled: "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] kissing you, I would not have kissed you."[11] Many Muslims follow Umar: they pay their respects to the Black Stone in a spirit of trust in Muhammad, not with any belief in the Black Stone itself. This, however does not indicate their disrespect to the stone, but their belief that harm and benefit are in the hands of God, and nothing else.

From Wikipedia.

Quote:
Is the Kabba with it's 366 stones,
a pagan temple,
The Kaaba is the holiest place in Islam.[1] The qibla, the direction Muslims face during prayer, is the direction from their location on Earth towards the Kaaba. It is around the Kaaba that ritual circumambulation is performed by Muslims during the Hajj (pilgrimage) season as well as during the Umrah (lesser pilgrimage).[1]

circumambulation is what Freemasons do in the Lodge/Temple. Read somewhere that Jews circumambulate the walls of Jerusalem.

According to the Qur'an, the Kaaba was built by Ibrahim (Abraham) and his son Ismail (Ishmael [1]). Islamic traditions assert that the Kaaba "reflects" a house in heaven called al-Baytu l-Maˤmur[13] (Arabic: البيت المعمور) and that it was first built by the first man, Adam. Ibrahim and Ismail rebuilt the Kaaba on the old foundations. [14]

When Muhammad conquered Mecca, he destroyed the 360 idols around Kaaba which the Meccan pagans possessed. [15][16] There was one god for each day of the year. [15] While destroying each idol, Muhammad recited [Qur'an 17:81] which says "Truth has arrived and falsehood has perished for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish.'" [15][16]

Muhammad then entered the Ka`abah and ordered all the pictures to be destroyed. [16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

Quote:
Originally Posted by rr_x http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=624243#post624243)
Islam is an Abrahamic religion it has more in common with the Kaballah than he could possibly imagine (Kab-ALLAH). more here



http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...belisk&page=35 (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7161&highlight=obelisk&page=35)

[islamvslizards]

Millions of Muslims make a pilgrimage each year to Mecca (Saudi Arabia) the centre and most important sites of the Islamic world. The Saudi's live by the teachings of Mohammed so therefore must be true Muslims.


not true. wahabbis have only been floating around for about 200 years. people have been going on pilgrimage to mecca since the time of abraham.

the saudis live by the teachings of a raving lunatic called "ibn taymiyya", who himself lived on the teachings of a known fraudster and forger or hadiths who was only with the prophet for 2 of his 50-odd years, called "abu hurraira", who somehow (despite his short stay with the prophet) managed to write about 90% of the hadiths most muslims believe are almost infallible.


Also why do all Muslim's face Mecca when they pray? This is just a few reasons why I don't buy it when Muslims say Wahhabi is not true Islam.


to show unity and brotherhood, no matter who you are or where you are in the world, we all have a common goal, a common faith. everyone united and praying in the same direction symbolises this.

has nothing to do with wahabbis at all.


Many of the Mosques in Britain are paid/funded by Saudi's and many of the preachers/Imams etc are schooled and trained in Saudi.


exactly. dont you think that is suspicious? why are saudi retard preachers like abu hamza given so much support? why is saudi sharia law being implemented? why all the support of saudi beliefs?


In the Kabbah is the meteorite (polished stone) The Kabbah is symbolic of the Masonic perfect ashlar (squared and polished stone building block)

Muslims circumnavigate (circumnambulate "walk around") the Kabbah same as Masons do their altar in the Lodge/Temples. Jews circumnavigate the walls of Jerusalem.

masons were not around at the time of abraham (who built the kaaba)

[eternal_spirit]

The Crusades were not the beginning of the fight between Islam and the West, they were a second, belated act, by a hitherto sleep-walking Christian world, after centuries of Muslim/Arab aggression, centuries of invasions, conquests, massacres, forced conversions, that reached all the way into the heart of western Europe. After the birth of Islam, in a small, obscure part of Arabia, in the 7th century, wave after wave of Muslim armies crashed into Christian and Jewish lands, conquered them, usurped them, colonized them, bled them. These armies carried Islam all the way to southern Spain, to Andalusia, and of course to countless, mainly Christian, lands along that bloody way. Conquered peoples were offered few choices - convert or accept the humiliating status of dhimmi. Over three centuries later, after this massive jihad had begun, the European Christians finally and belatedly made some sort of response - the Crusades - and attempted to seize back at least some of the areas lost to Christendom.


http://www.indonesiamatters.com/453/the-crusades-liberal-islam/

Just one example of many articles and Islam has been doing the same invading it does Today as it has always done since it's conception/creation.

[islamvslizards]

I don't believe that. Because Mohammed your prophet was looting invading destroying, killing, raping, enslaving right from the beginning of Islam.

while you are entitled to your beliefs, this does not neccessarily mean that your beliefs have any reflection on the history of islam.

i suggest you look up the "year of treaties" and the "event of brotherhood" and the "treaty of hudaiybiya" for an idea of how much of a looting, invading, destroying etc etc prophet the prophet muhammed was.


When Umar ibn al-Khattab (580-644), the second Caliph, came to kiss the Stone, he said in front of all assembled: "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] kissing you, I would not have kissed you."[11] Many Muslims follow Umar: they pay their respects to the Black Stone in a spirit of trust in Muhammad, not with any belief in the Black Stone itself. This, however does not indicate their disrespect to the stone, but their belief that harm and benefit are in the hands of God, and nothing else.


umar al khattab does not speak for the prophet, despite what he thought of himself.

for "many muslims" read "many muslims following the infiltrated version of islam". umar was a coward in battle, a tyrant and a bully.

have you noticed the following:

(1) umar admits the prophet kissed the stone
(2) umar kisses the stone
(3) the article says most muslims follow UMAR in kissing the stone, and not the prophet, who was the person who actually kissed it first.

why do you suspect this is?


From Wikipedia.

Quote:
Is the Kabba with it's 366 stones,
a pagan temple,
The Kaaba is the holiest place in Islam.[1] The qibla, the direction Muslims face during prayer, is the direction from their location on Earth towards the Kaaba. It is around the Kaaba that ritual circumambulation is performed by Muslims during the Hajj (pilgrimage) season as well as during the Umrah (lesser pilgrimage).[1]

circumambulation is what Freemasons do in the Lodge/Temple. Read somewhere that Jews circumambulate the walls of Jerusalem.

According to the Qur'an, the Kaaba was built by Ibrahim (Abraham) and his son Ismail (Ishmael [1]). Islamic traditions assert that the Kaaba "reflects" a house in heaven called al-Baytu l-Maˤmur[13] (Arabic: البيت المعمور) and that it was first built by the first man, Adam. Ibrahim and Ismail rebuilt the Kaaba on the old foundations. [14]

When Muhammad conquered Mecca, he destroyed the 360 idols around Kaaba which the Meccan pagans possessed. [15][16] There was one god for each day of the year. [15] While destroying each idol, Muhammad recited [Qur'an 17:81] which says "Truth has arrived and falsehood has perished for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish.'" [15][16]

firstly....wiki isnt exactly the fountain of all knowledge.

secondly - the kaaba was traditionally in the ownership of the prophet abraham, and stayed in his bloodline down to the grandfather and father of the prophet, i.e. was theirs. he had a right over it, more of a right than the pagans living in mecca.

the prophet was a monotheist, ownership of the kaaba had been with his family since the time of abraham, the kaaba was dedicated to a monotheist god, idols crept in as pagans power increased, upon the prophets return he removed the idols and rededicated the kaaba to the worship of one god.

does something seem wrong with any of these actions?



Muhammad then entered the Ka`abah and ordered all the pictures to be destroyed. [16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

Quote:
Originally Posted by rr_x http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=624243#post624243)
Islam is an Abrahamic religion it has more in common with the Kaballah than he could possibly imagine (Kab-ALLAH). more here



http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...belisk&page=35 (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7161&highlight=obelisk&page=35)

wow im not quite sure where to BEGIN with replying to those threads, so im just gonna ignore them lol

[islamvslizards]

The Crusades were not the beginning of the fight between Islam and the West, they were a second, belated act, by a hitherto sleep-walking Christian world, after centuries of Muslim/Arab aggression, centuries of invasions, conquests, massacres, forced conversions, that reached all the way into the heart of western Europe. After the birth of Islam, in a small, obscure part of Arabia, in the 7th century, wave after wave of Muslim armies crashed into Christian and Jewish lands, conquered them, usurped them, colonized them, bled them. These armies carried Islam all the way to southern Spain, to Andalusia, and of course to countless, mainly Christian, lands along that bloody way. Conquered peoples were offered few choices - convert or accept the humiliating status of dhimmi. Over three centuries later, after this massive jihad had begun, the European Christians finally and belatedly made some sort of response - the Crusades - and attempted to seize back at least some of the areas lost to Christendom.


http://www.indonesiamatters.com/453/the-crusades-liberal-islam/

Just one example of many articles and Islam has been doing the same invading it does Today as it has always done since it's conception/creation.

er im sorry but what kind of evidence are you bringing??? first you cut and paste directly from wikipedia without provided any references or checking their validity, and now you cut and paste an article produced from the firecly pro wahabbi indonesian website that again, provides NO references, NO reliable scholars accounts apart from people leaving comments and no verifyable evidence whatsoever!!!!

what do you expect me to do once ive read that article??? become an atheist on the power of its arguments???? lol

for an idea of how terrifying islam is, take a look at the muslim rule of spain, and eligous tolerance with all faiths.

[decode reality]

hiya mate...i appreciate it :D ive been a bit busy this weekend but i do try and answer the questions ASAP during the week, hope i havent kept you waiting too long?



see this view that music is contrary to religion as absolutely daft, yet people seem to believe it. if you watch any hollywood film in history that showed any muslim country even for a second, whats the FIRST soundbite that they play? the call to prayer. isnt that a form of music?

or when people all over the planet recite the quran, isnt that music?

look (and listen):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33PnAuHS22g

in islam, the line is drawn with forms of music that lead to self destruction, eg if you are at risk of doing some sin, as a result of listenin to certain types of music, then those types of music are forbidden for you.

secondly, the people banning music are usually the people who dont understand the power and beauty of music. there are reports of the prophets own wives listening to musicians in bukhari with his knowledge, so i dont see why people get their knickers in a twist in this day and age.



islam is a religion that believes that a womans body shouldnt be paraded around for all to see like some cattle market just for the benefit of any passing horny male, she should be given dignity and respect by men, and not have to rely on her looks for people to see her as attractive, but her personality. in bollywood films the women are prancing around wearing pretty much next to nothing apart from bikinis and sarongs, and we see that as an insult to femininity. a woman is viewed as a precious jewel, you have to protect it and care for it, not show it off for all to see.

so in that sense thats why videos of bollywood are frowned upon. its so prevalent because until less than 100 years ago india, pakistan and bangladesh were all the same country and culture was the same for everyone. after all these years south asian muslims cannot shake off the indian culture lol

Yes I hear you regarding music, I feel much the same as you've expressed it. And thanks for the breakdown of Bollywood also.:D

[islamvslizards]

Yes I hear you regarding music, I feel much the same as you've expressed it. And thanks for the breakdown of Bollywood also.:D

glad to be of service boss, if you have any more questions by all means fire away

[mephibosheth]

What is the significance of the daily call to prayer? Specifically, why is this done 5 times a day?

[eternal_spirit]

What is the significance of the daily call to prayer? Specifically, why is this done 5 times a day?
I'd like to expand on this aslo.

If a Muslim is bound to duty of prayer, if someone is in trouble, sick or dying etc outside the Mosque and could be heard shouting for help. would a Muslim be allowed to leave the Mosque and his prayes to go help the person suffering outside?

[eternal_spirit]

er im sorry but what kind of evidence are you bringing??? first you cut and paste directly from wikipedia without provided any references or checking their validity, and now you cut and paste an article produced from the firecly pro wahabbi indonesian website that again, provides NO references, NO reliable scholars accounts apart from people leaving comments and no verifyable evidence whatsoever!!!!



Not seen you providing any links or sources for any of your posts and claims as of yet:confused:

Is this enough I can post much more:D ?

1. History Sindh, Invasions, Arab contact, trade, civilization, India ...

"2 May 2002 ... The claim that Sindh during the 7th century was reeling from the hegemony ... several 5th-7th C Gupta-period land decrees demonstrate that caste .... It was the cohesive force of Islam that enabled the Arabs to combine ..."
http://india_resource.tripod.com/sindh.html

2. History of the Southern Levant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Philistines (whose traces disappear before the 5th century BCE) are ..... to the Islamic Arab invasion of the Eastern Roman Empire in the 7th century. ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

3. History of Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Xuanzang reports in his travels across India during the 7th century of Buddhism ... By the end of the 12th century, following the Islamic conquest of the ... the White Hun invasion in the 5th century where under the King Mihirkula they ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Buddhism

4. Arabia - History. Pre-Islamic Arabia, to the 7th Century AD.

"Pre-Islamic Arabia, to the 7th Century. History of Arabia The history of Arabia and its inhabitants naturally divides itself into two distinct and even ..."
www.1902encyclopedia.com/A/ARA/arabia-40.html (http://www.1902encyclopedia.com/A/ARA/arabia-40.html)

5. Durga's origins :Shahi and Kashmiri Durga

"Facing to the islamic invasions, the evolution of Durga's image in the Turki ... 3rd century until the Hephthalit invasions at the end of the 5th century. ... because of the islamic invasions of the 7th century, Islam prohibiting the ..."
www.scribd.com/doc/11372340/Durgas-origins-Shahi-and-Kashmiri-Durga (http://www.scribd.com/doc/11372340/Durgas-origins-Shahi-and-Kashmiri-Durga)

6. Islamic invasion of India

"Islamic invasion of India: Encyclopedia II - Indo-Parthian Kingdom - Main Indo- Parthian rulers. 6th century BCE 5th century BCE 4th century BCE 3rd century ..."
www.experiencefestival.com/islamic_invasion_of_india/page/2 (http://www.experiencefestival.com/islamic_invasion_of_india/page/2)

7. Chapter 13 Abbasid Decline and the Spread of Islamic Civilization ...

"The Coming of Islam to South Asia. Muslim invasions from the 7th century ... rival dynasties after the 5th century fall of the Gupta until Harsha in the 7th ..."
occawlonline.pearsoned.com/bookbind/pubbooks/stearns_awl/medialib/IM/ch13.pdf

8. Revision:A Continuous History of the Empire of New Rome - The ...

"In the 5th 6th, 7th centuries, major cultural changes, no longercities on classical model, ... Islamic invasion saw continuation of existing trends. ... By the 7th century old style political elite almost vanished. ..."
www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Revision:A_Continuous_History_of_the_Empire_of_New _Rome (http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Revision:A_Continuous_History_of_the_Empire_of_New _Rome)

9. BBC World Service | The Story of Africa

"5th-7th Century - Scriptures translated into Ge'ez in Ethiopia ... 639 - Islam comes to North Africa, displacing Christianity on a large scale ... 639 - Muslim invasion of Egypt under Amr Ibn al-As challenging Roman Byzantine rule ..."
www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1624_story_of_africa/page96.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1624_story_of_africa/page96.shtml)

10. Islamic Danger in History: Lebanon, the Arab Invasion, and The ...

"4 Jan 2009 ... Lebanon, the Arab Invasion, and The Arrival of Islam .... From early in the 5th Century and throughout the 6th, through the works of the ... By the end of the 7th century the Arabs and the Persians, newcomers to an ..
http://islamicdangerhistory.blogspot.com/2009/01/lebanon-arab-invasion-and-arrival-of.html

11. Bambooweb: Middle ages

"The Islamic invasions of the 7th Century, conquering the southern and eastern ... Between the 5th and 8th centuries a completely new political and social ..."
www.bambooweb.com/articles/m/i/Middle_Ages.html (http://www.bambooweb.com/articles/m/i/Middle_Ages.html)

12. Afghanistan :: Historical beginnings (to the 7th century ad ...

"From the 5th through the 7th century many Chinese Buddhist pilgrims continued to travel through Afghanistan. The pilgrim Xüanzang wrote an important account ..."
www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/7798/Afghanistan/21381/Historical-beginnings-to-the-7th-century-ad (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/7798/Afghanistan/21381/Historical-beginnings-to-the-7th-century-ad)

13. ORB: The Online Reference Book for Medieval Studies

"Leo I, in the 5th century, and Gregory I, in the 6th century, .... two were the civil wars of the 3rd century, and the Islamic invasions of the 7th century. ..."
www.the-orb.net/textbooks/westciv/darkages.html (http://www.the-orb.net/textbooks/westciv/darkages.html)

14. On The Sources Of The Qur'anic Dhul-Qarnayn

"First Composed: 1st September 1999. Last Updated: 5th March 2006 .... The poem, however, was actually written in the seventh century, .... R. Morey, The Islamic Invasion: Confronting The World's Fastest Growing Religion, 1992, ..."
www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBhorned.html (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBhorned.html)

15. Anti Essays : Free Essays on The Berbers And Islam Essay

"24 Jan 2008 ... It wasn't until the 7th century with the Arab invasion that the Berbers ... in the 5th century. The Arabs invaded circa 685, bringing Islam. ..."
www.antiessays.com/free-essays/855.html (http://www.antiessays.com/free-essays/855.html)

16. Middle Ages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"18 Jul 2006 ... The Islamic invasions of the 7th and 8th centuries, which conquered ... Between the 5th and 8th centuries a completely new political and social ..... see the period to the rise of Islam (7th century) as "late Classical". ..."
scorpio.cs.usfca.edu/wiki/index.php/Middle_Ages

17. Egypt: Petra, Part I: The History and Relationship with Egypt

"It continued to decline with the Muslim invasion of the 7th century, though the new ... that the area of Petra had already seen a large conversion to Islam, ..."
www.touregypt.net/featurestories/petra1.htm (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/petra1.htm)

18. Coptic Church@Everything2.com

"24 Nov 2005 ... Thus it was that the Islamic invasions of the seventh century were met with ... Nine Syrian monks brought monasticism to Ethiopia in the 5th century. ... Since the 7th century the Coptic Church has been so isolated from ..."
everything2.com/title/Coptic%2520Church

19. Byzantine Empire - Crystalinks

"Throughout the 5th century various invasions conquered the western half of the empire, ..... and Anatolia after the Islamic invasions of the 7th century. ..."
www.crystalinks.com/byzantine.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/byzantine.html)

20. Islam, The Coming Of Islam To South Asia

"arrival of the Muslims in the last years of the 7th century A.D. ... In the years after the collapse of the Gupta Empire at the end of the 5th century ..... had survived as a popular religion until the era of the Muslim invasions, ..."
http://history-world.org/islam6.htm

[picha]

Not seen you providing any links or sources for any of your posts and claims as of yet:confused:

Is this enough I can post much more:D ?

1. History Sindh, Invasions, Arab contact, trade, civilization, India ...

"2 May 2002 ... The claim that Sindh during the 7th century was reeling from the hegemony ... several 5th-7th C Gupta-period land decrees demonstrate that caste .... It was the cohesive force of Islam that enabled the Arabs to combine ..."
http://india_resource.tripod.com/sindh.html

2. History of the Southern Levant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Philistines (whose traces disappear before the 5th century BCE) are ..... to the Islamic Arab invasion of the Eastern Roman Empire in the 7th century. ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

3. History of Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Xuanzang reports in his travels across India during the 7th century of Buddhism ... By the end of the 12th century, following the Islamic conquest of the ... the White Hun invasion in the 5th century where under the King Mihirkula they ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Buddhism

4. Arabia - History. Pre-Islamic Arabia, to the 7th Century AD.

"Pre-Islamic Arabia, to the 7th Century. History of Arabia The history of Arabia and its inhabitants naturally divides itself into two distinct and even ..."
www.1902encyclopedia.com/A/ARA/arabia-40.html (http://www.1902encyclopedia.com/A/ARA/arabia-40.html)

5. Durga's origins :Shahi and Kashmiri Durga

"Facing to the islamic invasions, the evolution of Durga's image in the Turki ... 3rd century until the Hephthalit invasions at the end of the 5th century. ... because of the islamic invasions of the 7th century, Islam prohibiting the ..."
www.scribd.com/doc/11372340/Durgas-origins-Shahi-and-Kashmiri-Durga (http://www.scribd.com/doc/11372340/Durgas-origins-Shahi-and-Kashmiri-Durga)

6. Islamic invasion of India

"Islamic invasion of India: Encyclopedia II - Indo-Parthian Kingdom - Main Indo- Parthian rulers. 6th century BCE 5th century BCE 4th century BCE 3rd century ..."
www.experiencefestival.com/islamic_invasion_of_india/page/2 (http://www.experiencefestival.com/islamic_invasion_of_india/page/2)

7. Chapter 13 Abbasid Decline and the Spread of Islamic Civilization ...

"The Coming of Islam to South Asia. Muslim invasions from the 7th century ... rival dynasties after the 5th century fall of the Gupta until Harsha in the 7th ..."
occawlonline.pearsoned.com/bookbind/pubbooks/stearns_awl/medialib/IM/ch13.pdf

8. Revision:A Continuous History of the Empire of New Rome - The ...

"In the 5th 6th, 7th centuries, major cultural changes, no longercities on classical model, ... Islamic invasion saw continuation of existing trends. ... By the 7th century old style political elite almost vanished. ..."
www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Revision:A_Continuous_History_of_the_Empire_of_New _Rome (http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Revision:A_Continuous_History_of_the_Empire_of_New _Rome)

9. BBC World Service | The Story of Africa

"5th-7th Century - Scriptures translated into Ge'ez in Ethiopia ... 639 - Islam comes to North Africa, displacing Christianity on a large scale ... 639 - Muslim invasion of Egypt under Amr Ibn al-As challenging Roman Byzantine rule ..."
www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1624_story_of_africa/page96.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1624_story_of_africa/page96.shtml)

10. Islamic Danger in History: Lebanon, the Arab Invasion, and The ...

"4 Jan 2009 ... Lebanon, the Arab Invasion, and The Arrival of Islam .... From early in the 5th Century and throughout the 6th, through the works of the ... By the end of the 7th century the Arabs and the Persians, newcomers to an ..
http://islamicdangerhistory.blogspot.com/2009/01/lebanon-arab-invasion-and-arrival-of.html

11. Bambooweb: Middle ages

"The Islamic invasions of the 7th Century, conquering the southern and eastern ... Between the 5th and 8th centuries a completely new political and social ..."
www.bambooweb.com/articles/m/i/Middle_Ages.html (http://www.bambooweb.com/articles/m/i/Middle_Ages.html)

12. Afghanistan :: Historical beginnings (to the 7th century ad ...

"From the 5th through the 7th century many Chinese Buddhist pilgrims continued to travel through Afghanistan. The pilgrim Xüanzang wrote an important account ..."
www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/7798/Afghanistan/21381/Historical-beginnings-to-the-7th-century-ad (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/7798/Afghanistan/21381/Historical-beginnings-to-the-7th-century-ad)

13. ORB: The Online Reference Book for Medieval Studies

"Leo I, in the 5th century, and Gregory I, in the 6th century, .... two were the civil wars of the 3rd century, and the Islamic invasions of the 7th century. ..."
www.the-orb.net/textbooks/westciv/darkages.html (http://www.the-orb.net/textbooks/westciv/darkages.html)

14. On The Sources Of The Qur'anic Dhul-Qarnayn

"First Composed: 1st September 1999. Last Updated: 5th March 2006 .... The poem, however, was actually written in the seventh century, .... R. Morey, The Islamic Invasion: Confronting The World's Fastest Growing Religion, 1992, ..."
www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBhorned.html (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBhorned.html)

15. Anti Essays : Free Essays on The Berbers And Islam Essay

"24 Jan 2008 ... It wasn't until the 7th century with the Arab invasion that the Berbers ... in the 5th century. The Arabs invaded circa 685, bringing Islam. ..."
www.antiessays.com/free-essays/855.html (http://www.antiessays.com/free-essays/855.html)

16. Middle Ages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"18 Jul 2006 ... The Islamic invasions of the 7th and 8th centuries, which conquered ... Between the 5th and 8th centuries a completely new political and social ..... see the period to the rise of Islam (7th century) as "late Classical". ..."
scorpio.cs.usfca.edu/wiki/index.php/Middle_Ages

17. Egypt: Petra, Part I: The History and Relationship with Egypt

"It continued to decline with the Muslim invasion of the 7th century, though the new ... that the area of Petra had already seen a large conversion to Islam, ..."
www.touregypt.net/featurestories/petra1.htm (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/petra1.htm)

18. Coptic Church@Everything2.com

"24 Nov 2005 ... Thus it was that the Islamic invasions of the seventh century were met with ... Nine Syrian monks brought monasticism to Ethiopia in the 5th century. ... Since the 7th century the Coptic Church has been so isolated from ..."
everything2.com/title/Coptic%2520Church

19. Byzantine Empire - Crystalinks

"Throughout the 5th century various invasions conquered the western half of the empire, ..... and Anatolia after the Islamic invasions of the 7th century. ..."
www.crystalinks.com/byzantine.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/byzantine.html)

20. Islam, The Coming Of Islam To South Asia

"arrival of the Muslims in the last years of the 7th century A.D. ... In the years after the collapse of the Gupta Empire at the end of the 5th century ..... had survived as a popular religion until the era of the Muslim invasions, ..."
http://history-world.org/islam6.htm

Some good info there. It really annoys me when people say muslims are only violent because of the isreal palestine issue. Theyve been violent ever since mohammed managed to get enough followers so that violence would be a viable method of getting himself what he wanted.

[zarah]

Some good info there. It really annoys me when people say muslims are only violent because of the isreal palestine issue. Theyve been violent ever since mohammed managed to get enough followers so that violence would be a viable method of getting himself what he wanted.

Is your hobby trailing around this place looking for anti Islamic rhetoric you can wet your knickers to? Why don't you spend your time more constructively and go and do a modicum of bloody research which doesn't entail getting needlessly excited at obvious controlled, biased websites.

[eternal_spirit]

Some good info there. It really annoys me when people say muslims are only violent because of the isreal palestine issue. Theyve been violent ever since mohammed managed to get enough followers so that violence would be a viable method of getting himself what he wanted.

Yes well the cats out the bag now we know the truth. Muslims try to be like Mohamed.
quote: Zarah
Is your hobby trailing around this place looking for anti Islamic rhetoric you can wet your knickers to? Why don't you spend your time more constructively and go and do a modicum of bloody research which doesn't entail getting needlessly excited at obvious controlled, biased websites.




The Muslims here rarely provide and link/sources to back up what they post.
Me and others post a lot from Muslims own religious texts/words laws etc, which contradict much of what you Muslims post. So, your comments are void.

[islamvslizards]

Yes well the cats out the bag now we know the truth. Muslims try to be like Mohamed.
The Muslims here rarely provide and link/sources to back up what they post.
Me and others post a lot from Muslims own religious texts/words laws etc, which contradict much of what you Muslims post. So, your comments are void.

eternal spirit thats quite a formidable list of links man :). if you dont mind its gonna take me a while to refute them all one by one, so bear with me ill do it in bits and pieces.

however, it is slightly inaccurate to claim that you are posting a lot from muslims "own" religious texts/words/laws etc, since there isnt a standard set of laws or texts apart from the quran that is universal to all sects within islam. if you notice, so far i have only stuck to the quran and articles from world famous and respected scholars. i am a little confused as to what other "links/ sources" you expect from me, because if you scan through my posts ive actually provided loads.

[islamvslizards]

What is the significance of the daily call to prayer? Specifically, why is this done 5 times a day?

its done 5 times a day in sunni places, 3 times a day in shia ones, the quran says to establish prayers at the start, middle and sunset of each day.

the reason there is a call to prayer is again to show unity and brotherhood between the muslim community - community is very important part of religion. many things are done in islam simply for the sake of unity and brotherhood between people.

when there is a call to prayer, all followers are united and join together as a community to offer prayers together, so at least 3 times a day socially they gather together. this way a muslims daily life revolves around worship and thanks towards the creator, instead of pushing the spiritual side of life to one side until you can be bothered to think about it.

[islamvslizards]

I'd like to expand on this aslo.

If a Muslim is bound to duty of prayer, if someone is in trouble, sick or dying etc outside the Mosque and could be heard shouting for help. would a Muslim be allowed to leave the Mosque and his prayes to go help the person suffering outside?

i would say that the answer to that was kinda pretty obviously yes. what sort of question is that to ask lol? the quran says this:

[5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

i.e. whoever has saved a life, it is as though they have saved the entire world, because you have saved THAT persons world.

you do get zealots who are a bit weird, but the quran is clear, human life has value above all things.

[islamvslizards]

1. History Sindh, Invasions, Arab contact, trade, civilization, India ...

"2 May 2002 ... The claim that Sindh during the 7th century was reeling from the hegemony ... several 5th-7th C Gupta-period land decrees demonstrate that caste .... It was the cohesive force of Islam that enabled the Arabs to combine ..."
http://india_resource.tripod.com/sindh.html


firstly, right off the bat. look at the entire paragraphs not just snippets here and there taken out of long articles.

im not going to bother talking about the first half "The claim that Sindh during the 7th century...." because caste systems have nothing to do at all with islam, so i dont know why you posted it or what relevance that point has to this discussion.

In the views of Ibn Khaldun dynasties arise from successfully marshalling "group feeling" which he believed originated from respect of blood ties or something akin to that. Because of the difficult conditions the Bedouins were exposed to in the desert, he saw the Bedouins as most capable of developing and harnessing "group feelings". He also noted the fearless manner in which they fought and subdued others - seeing in their "savagery", the seeds of royal power. However, he also saw the Bedouins as wild and anarchic - as all too capable of plundering the possessions of others, and destroying the civilizations of those whom they conquered, citing specifically the ruination of the civilizations of Yemen, Syria, Iraq, and the Sudan after Bedouin conquests. He thus argued that for the Bedouins to develop royal leadership, they needed the strong influence of a religion such as Islam, which he saw as being crucial to the initial success of the Arabs. It was the cohesive force of Islam that enabled the Arabs to combine strong "group feelings" with the political leadership that was necessary to win and sustain stable royal dynasties. He attributed their subsequent decline to their neglect of religion, and of losing their "group feeling" and leadership skills in the course of acquiring wealth and urban comforts.

look at what i highlighted. whats been said here is that the ibn khaldun dynasties wanted to manipulate the arab (not muslim) bedouins to serve their own ends so encouraged them all to become muslims and do what they wanted.

this is not the fault of islam, it is the fault of the ibn khaldun dynasties trying to gain power and manipulating people.



2. History of the Southern Levant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Philistines (whose traces disappear before the 5th century BCE) are ..... to the Islamic Arab invasion of the Eastern Roman Empire in the 7th century. ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine


again....what revelance does this have? talk about what the prophet or the ahlebeyt did during their lives, not what people who came after them did in their name. umar was a tyrant, and a racist arab supremacist. he does NOT represent the prophet even if he was the "second of the initial 4 caliphs".

even tho he was as bad as he was, look how he treated the people of that place:

In 638 CE, the Christians of Jerusalem surrendered to the conquering armies of the Caliphate (Islamic Empire) under Caliph (Emperor) Umar, the second of the initial four Rashideen Caliphs.

Umar allowed seventy families from Tiberias in Galilee to move to Jerusalem to live. Christians, who were expelled from Arabia by Umar also moved to Palestine.

and just for your information - the current wahabbi saudi royal family are direct descendants of the ummayad dynasty. bear that in mind considering what sect the current saudi royal family follow, and who funds them. is it impossible to put 2 and 2 together and realise that the umayyads (and actually abbasids) were the initial infiltrators of islam?

[islamvslizards]

Some good info there. It really annoys me when people say muslims are only violent because of the isreal palestine issue. Theyve been violent ever since mohammed managed to get enough followers so that violence would be a viable method of getting himself what he wanted.

ammar nakshawani - was islam spread by the sword? forward it about 5 minutes or so until he starts speaking english it will answer any and every question you can think of, and many you cant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s48y8bZSEY)

the treaty of hudaiybiya (http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/companion/19_ali_bin_talib.htm)

[islamvslizards]

3. History of Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Xuanzang reports in his travels across India during the 7th century of Buddhism ... By the end of the 12th century, following the Islamic conquest of the ... the White Hun invasion in the 5th century where under the King Mihirkula they ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Buddhism


again....what does this have to do with islamic history? instead of focusing on "muslim" conquests in the 12th century, why dont you look at how many times the PROPHET HIMSELF OR HIS AHLEBEYT conquered any foreign lands for empire or land or whatever. take as long as you want.



4. Arabia - History. Pre-Islamic Arabia, to the 7th Century AD.

"Pre-Islamic Arabia, to the 7th Century. History of Arabia The history of Arabia and its inhabitants naturally divides itself into two distinct and even ..."
www.1902encyclopedia.com/A/ARA/arabia-40.html (http://www.1902encyclopedia.com/A/ARA/arabia-40.html)


ok finally something worth discussing :D

Of their pedigree, which, as is well known, includes that of Mahomet himself, we have a carefully-too carefully, indeed, for authenticity-constructed chronicle, bringing the family tree up in due form of Ishmael, the son of Abraham, of whom the Koreysh figure as the direct descendants.

thank you...thats what ive been saying all along lol. is it really too much of a leap to suggest that if the quraish tribe were direct descendants of abraham, they were also monotheists like him?

the rest of the article doesnt actually talk about whatever point it was you were trying to make, does it? what does arabic peninsula history have to do with proving islam was spread by the sword or whatever?

[lostwonderer]

"How can you deny God, when you were dead and God gave you life? Then God will cause you to die, and then revive you, and then you will be returned to God."

I know Islam does not believe in reincarnation, but what does the above verse mean?

[islamvslizards]

"How can you deny God, when you were dead and God gave you life? Then God will cause you to die, and then revive you, and then you will be returned to God."

I know Islam does not believe in reincarnation, but what does the above verse mean?

hiya

islam does not believe in the transmigration of the soul from one body into another after death - islam believes that we only get one shot at this life in one body.

however this does not rule out god granting the dead life, for example jesus resurrecting lazarus. there are numerous examples of god resurrecting the dead in the quran for various reasons:

[2.259] Or the like of him (Uzair) who passed by a town, and it had fallen down upon its roofs; he said: When will Allah give it life after its death? So Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him to life. He said: How long have you tarried? He said: I have tarried a day, or a part of a day. Said He: Nay! you have tarried a hundred years; then look at your food and drink-- years have not passed over it; and look at your ass; and that We may make you a sign to men, and look at the bones, how We set them together, then clothed them with flesh; so when it became clear to him, he said: I know that Allah has power over all things.

so in this case god was showing a prophet what it feels like to die, and how time passes.

[30.40] Allah is He Who created you, then gave you sustenance, then He causes you to die, then brings you to life. Is there any of your associate-gods who does aught of it? Glory be to Him, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).

this case is talking about judgement day - all human life on earth will come to an end, and be resurrected.

there is a belief in islam, that upon death, there is an "intermediary world" that the soul enters, before judgement day. kind of like catholisism but different. its a journey, an echo of your life.

now.

with the ayat you posted:

[2.28] How do you deny Allah and you were dead and He gave you life? Again He will cause you to die and again bring you to life, then you shall be brought back to Him.

i will show you the views of my two favourite (and probably the best in the world at their time) scholars, whose views and thoughts were pretty much accepted by all schools.

first is pooya/ali:

True knowledge about Allah is the basis of the faith. The whole system of religion is a natural consequence of that generative factor. The most practical method of acquiring this knowledge is to observe and contemplate on the creation before our eyes, as repeatedly advised by the Quran, known to the modern world as scientific, proceeding from the concrete to the abstract.

Through "kuntum amwatan" it is made clear that the soul, though existed in the spiritual realm but was unable to take any active part in the visible creation.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

The human ego, which was not as it is now - a conscious self - is addressed here. The previous state is termed as "being dead". "Giving life" is the present conscious state. The departure of the conscious self from the body is death. The state after this departure is revivification. It is a continuous evolutionary transformation of a conscious self upto the communion with the infinite, not in the sense of annihilation, nor the absorption of the finite into the infinite, but in the sense of the realisation of the fact that nothing is real save Allah.

After departing from one life to live another life, the pain or pleasure in the succeeding life is the result of the mode of life adopted in the preceding life. Therefore the return is for the final retribution.

The Holy Prophet said:

You shall not be annihilated, because you have been created to last till eternity. You only go from this life of actions (good or bad) to the life of happiness or misery.

(see commentary for verse 4)(see commentary for verse 2)

and secondly allama tabatabei in his tafsir al mizan:

QUR’AN: How do you deny Allàh ... you shall be brought back to Him: The verse is somewhat (though not exactly) similar to the verse 40:11: They shall say: “Our Lord! twice didst Thou give us death, and twice hast Thou give us life, so we do confess our faults; is there then a way to get out?

This (later) is one of the verses that prove an al-barzakh (= intervening period or life) between this world and the next. It says that Allàh gives death twice. First is the death that transfers us from this world. But when and where shall we be given the second death? Giving of death presupposes a preceding life. It means that man shall be given a life in the period intervening between this first death and the Day of Resurrection. This argument is solid, and it has been offered in some traditions too.

Question: Both verses have exactly the same connotation. Both mention two deaths and two lives. According to the verse 2:28, the stage before the life of this world has been called the first death. Then comes the first life in this world, followed by the second death transferring the man to the next world, and lastly will come the second life on the Day of Resurrection. The second verse (40:11) too should be interpreted in the same way, because both have the same import. It means that after the death of this world, there is no life, before the Day of Resurrection.

Reply: It is wrong to say that the two verses have the same connotation. The verse 2:28 mentions one death, one causing to die and two giving of life; while the verse 40:11 is talking about two giving of death and two giving of life. There is a world of difference between "death" and "causing to die". "Causing to die" shows a preceding life; while "death" can be used just for absence of life - even when there was no life before it.

The verse 40:11 refers to the death after this life, then the life of the intervening period, then the death after that, and finally to the life on the Day of Resurrection. The verse 2:28 on the other hand, refers first to the lifeless state ("death", and not "causing to die") before coming to this world, then goes on mentioning this life, then death and then the life of the intervening period. There will be some delay before man is returned to his Lord. The conjunctive used "thumma" (= then) denotes some delay. Its use here supports this explanation because after the life of the intervening period there shall come again a death and only then the man shall be returned to Allah.

i hope this helped? if you have any more questions feel free

[lostwonderer]

each letter has a numerical value, for example a = 1, b = 2, c = 3 and so on. arabic letters have their own numerical values. if you take the letter of every letter in the traditional way to begin any task, bismillah hir rah maa nirr raheem, or (i begin) in the name of allah, the beneficient, the merciful,

and add up all the numbers, you get 786. its kind of a shorthand way of writing the sentence.

in the same way muhammed = 92 and ali = 110

So would you say it is of importance in Islam?

[islamvslizards]

So would you say it is of importance in Islam?

kind of yeah. you see there isnt one, there are several codes, like layers, all linked to maths within the quran, all of them separate, but at the same time existing in the same space, if you get me. if you remove even a single letter from anywhere in the quran all the codes get shattered and dont work.

its important because its one of many ways in which we can prove that the quran cannot be changed, and hasnt been changed since it was first written.

added to this there has been an unbroken chain of "hafiz", or people that have memorised the entire quran perfectly off by heart. they number the many millions, in iran and saudi and pakistan and pretty much all "muslim" countries there are yearly hafiz cometitions, so even if the quran was altered, theres millions of people all over the world who know it and will be able to spot any changes.

thirdly there are again many many independant organisations which monitor the quran and ensure that every publication is in line with the rest of them.

[mephibosheth]

its done 5 times a day in sunni places, 3 times a day in shia ones, the quran says to establish prayers at the start, middle and sunset of each day.

the reason there is a call to prayer is again to show unity and brotherhood between the muslim community - community is very important part of religion. many things are done in islam simply for the sake of unity and brotherhood between people.

when there is a call to prayer, all followers are united and join together as a community to offer prayers together, so at least 3 times a day socially they gather together. this way a muslims daily life revolves around worship and thanks towards the creator, instead of pushing the spiritual side of life to one side until you can be bothered to think about it.

Is there no further justification for this regulation in the Quraan? I mean, no special reason, aside from the general social solidarity you mention? Is this a command in the Quraan itself, or a tradition that arose afterward?

The idea of prayer at certain solar positions is interesting. It brings to mind tai chi practice, where these key times are associated with more fruitful cultivation.

8)

[islamvslizards]

ah yes ok i understand what you are asking now, sorry i misunderstood. let me dig out the info ill show u asap

off the top of my head tho i dont think its has much to do with tai chi nor solar positions, you just split the day into three and work your day around spirituality.

[major seven]

Hi Islam
Thanks for volunteering to answer questions from us infidels.:)
If you don't mind, here are some I'm curious about.

1.) There has been some mention of Adam being something like 60 cubits tall, mainly I guess from some dude named Abu Huraira narrating in Bukhari Vol4, Book 55 Number 544.
Apparently Mohmmed said this which of course is the same as Allah telling us the same thing, Right?
So what do you think?
Is this one of those "Bullshit hadiths" you have mentioned or one that has been infiltrated by some evil hadith conman sent by the Illuminati?
I am a bit surprised that Mr Adbasque hasn't weighed in on your comments about "Bullshit Hadiths" since I think he is a dyed in the wool Ko'ranist who believes ALL the hadiths are relevant and that there are only "strong hadiths and "weak hadiths", but Bukhari always comes in as a "strong hadith".
Even our little buddy Scooby doesn't think much about most hadiths except for old Bukhari.
So do most muslims think that Adam showed up as first man somewheres in the neighborhood of 90 or more feet tall? That would imply of course that Eve and the kids were the same, Right? And also that eventually men became shorter gradually to our present stature of 5-6 feet?
I wonder if it was the stick(tree?) that Cain hit Abel with that killed him or perhaps it was the fall.:)


2.) In Genesis, there is no mention of Abraham following Hagar and Ishmael into the desert.
What proof, therefore, do muslims have that Abraham built the Kabaa with Ishmael at the same site that Adam did.? See Gen. 21:8-20
Its pretty obvious that Ishmael wasn't going to have any inheritance as per Gen.21:10.
Now just about every pro islam site will go through more gyrations than a prom queen to justify Ishmael as the litgitamate heir including a Jewish conspiracy to corrupt the bible readings.
Interesting that you claim Mohammud and his immediate family were monotheists in charge of the Kabaa, yet everybody else on the Arabian pennisula were pagans.
Don't sound like they did a whole lot of teaching folks the way it really is, does it? I Wonder why? Why the secrecy?
Also interesting your claim that Mohammud wasn't illiterate at all.
Even Mr Adbasque believes Mohammud to be a total illiterate and he has a whole room full of books that he spends all day reading.
It really doesn't jive, does it, that Mohammud should be born into this elite family with all this secret knowledge and yet never bothered to learn how to read and write? Good Call!


3.) Mr Adbasque has claimed that there hasn't been more than two cases of theft under islamic law in 700 years. Another pro islam site has claimed only six cases in 400 hundred years.
What do you think? :)


4.) Whats up with that "fly wing hadith by Bukhari(again) Vol.4 Book 54, Num537.
I know Scooby is a big fan for dunking flys in his drinks like any good old tea bag.:)
Apparently Scooby doesn't know that the fly carries more crap than he has antidotes for.
So QUIT DUNKING FLYS Scooby!
Personally I am more in favor of throwing out the whole lot and starting over with a new drink in a new glass or in the case of some food, at least throw out a section the stupid fly landed on.
In other words, don't go dragging the fly through your chili to make sure you get all them good antidotes mixed up with the rest of the diseases.
Now if Mohammud really had your health in mind, he might have said as much.

Interesting thread on the subject here.
http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org/showthread.php?t=1525
A bit lengthy and a lot of back and forth but you can skip to page 5 for a final rebuttle to the debate.
My man Hector makes some good observations. I think the muslims pretty much fall flat.
Even though it was as far back as 2004, this thread goes to show that nothing much has changed on these religion forum boards. :)

Thanks for your time

Frank

[islamvslizards]

Hi Islam
Thanks for volunteering to answer questions from us infidels.:)
If you don't mind, here are some I'm curious about.


(in an akhmed the dead terrorist voice) greetings.....infidel


1.) There has been some mention of Adam being something like 60 cubits tall, mainly I guess from some dude named Abu Huraira narrating in Bukhari Vol4, Book 55 Number 544.
Apparently Mohmmed said this which of course is the same as Allah telling us the same thing, Right?
So what do you think?


interesting first question. first of all abu hurraira is a known fabricator of hadiths and a liar. when he was the govenor of syria during the time of umar he used to get paid money just to make up hadiths for people. however there are the odd nuggets of truth in some of his hadiths.

abu hurraira is the person who the lunatic ibn taymiyya followed the most, and created his religion from. ibn taymiyya was the scholar whose teachings were adopted by muhammed bin abdul wahhab - the founder of the wahabbi death cult. for this reason i believe that abu hurraira was a fundamental infiltrator of islam.

there are a number of theories as to the height of the prophet adam. just as an interesting bit of info, did you know that according to muslim beliefs, the adam who we descend from ISNT the "first" man, but the earth is much older, and there were THOUSANDS of adams before "our" adam, all who came to earth from heaven and died out to be replaced by another adam.

as for his height, i think that might be a general muslim belief, with a difference of opinion between the scholars, despite abu hurraira transmitting it. there are other narrators who are more reliable. his son - abel, is buried in syria right on the lebanon border (i have been to the grave), his grave is a good 25 foot long, not 90-odd, so maybe there is some truth to it? i have pics of the grave on my fone if you wanna see it.

i can probably dig out some info if you want to know more. it is a very interesting topic, considering the views of many on this board.


Is this one of those "Bullshit hadiths" you have mentioned or one that has been infiltrated by some evil hadith conman sent by the Illuminati?
I am a bit surprised that Mr Adbasque hasn't weighed in on your comments about "Bullshit Hadiths" since I think he is a dyed in the wool Ko'ranist who believes ALL the hadiths are relevant and that there are only "strong hadiths and "weak hadiths", but Bukhari always comes in as a "strong hadith".


if bro adbaque wants to debate on the history of hadiths, i wouldnt mind altho i feel that the topic will go way over many peoples heads here. all you need to ask, however, is how many years after the prophets death was bukhari even BORN, and secondly why was there a blanket ban on the writing of hadiths immediately after the prophets death?

bukhari isnt infallible man. i can show you literally hundreds of hadiths which are in flat contradiction of the quran. the rules are if a hadith contradicts the quran, the hadith is rejected, yet here is hadith upon hadith of contradictory hadiths, which somehow no one dares to question?

infiltration man. absolute infiltration. like david icke says, the sheeple shepherd themselves.


Even our little buddy Scooby doesn't think much about most hadiths except for old Bukhari.
So do most muslims think that Adam showed up as first man somewheres in the neighborhood of 90 or more feet tall? That would imply of course that Eve and the kids were the same, Right? And also that eventually men became shorter gradually to our present stature of 5-6 feet?
I wonder if it was the stick(tree?) that Cain hit Abel with that killed him or perhaps it was the fall.:)


it could be. the thing is, all we know for certain is that the quran is free from change or alteration, so when it comes to issues like this, all i can show you is the different scholars opinions on the matter, since there isnt a set in stone rule "yes adam was this tall", most think that its true, some dont. sorry i cant be more specific.


2.) In Genesis, there is no mention of Abraham following Hagar and Ishmael into the desert.
What proof, therefore, do muslims have that Abraham built the Kabaa with Ishmael at the same site that Adam did.? See Gen. 21:8-20
Its pretty obvious that Ishmael wasn't going to have any inheritance as per Gen.21:10.


to be honest, the only "proof" would be classed as weak by non muslims. we are back to hadiths narrated from the prophet and the ahlebeyt, explaining certain ayats in the quran which describe the history of the events. so the focus isnt on whether or not it happened, but whether or not the prophet or the ahlebeyt actually said those hadiths, and if they did, then they are taken as true.

do you believe that the bible is the literal, infallible word of god, exactly as the holy prophet jesus transmitted it during his life?


Now just about every pro islam site will go through more gyrations than a prom queen to justify Ishmael as the litgitamate heir including a Jewish conspiracy to corrupt the bible readings.


yeah i hear you man. im not too keen to discuss it cos we both know its just been done to death. we believe both were legitimate, and both produced a line of descendants, both of which produced prophets of god. however the building of the kaaba and the line of mohammed comes from ismail. this doesnt make us disrespect hazrat ishaac in any way, or think of him as lesser.


Interesting that you claim Mohammud and his immediate family were monotheists in charge of the Kabaa, yet everybody else on the Arabian pennisula were pagans.
Don't sound like they did a whole lot of teaching folks the way it really is, does it? I Wonder why? Why the secrecy?


this is another misconception bro. dont forget that there were plenty of jews, christians, sabians, even zoroastrans in the arab peninsula at the time, all of whom were monotheist (not sure about the zoroastrans tho). the religion that was most close to what islam became, was called "haneef".

it wasnt the case that EVERYONE was a pagan, the arab peninsula is massive. they were concentrated in mecca and medina, the trade routes, which is why they played such a big role in the history of islam.


Also interesting your claim that Mohammud wasn't illiterate at all.
Even Mr Adbasque believes Mohammud to be a total illiterate and he has a whole room full of books that he spends all day reading.
It really doesn't jive, does it, that Mohammud should be born into this elite family with all this secret knowledge and yet never bothered to learn how to read and write? Good Call!


this is further bullshit. the prophet was born into a rich business orientated family. he was a businessman himself. how can a businessman not know how to count? or read and write?

the focus of this misinfo is poorly translated and misunderstood ayats in the quran. the word in question is "ummi" - or untaught. as in the prophet was not taught by any man. since we believe he was taught by god himself. how can a prophet need to rely on others to fill his ignorance? what kinda prophet would that be?

the prophet COULD read and write and converse and everything. but he was "ummi" - untaught (by men), since he was taught by god. this is mentioned many times in the quran actually.




3.) Mr Adbasque has claimed that there hasn't been more than two cases of theft under islamic law in 700 years. Another pro islam site has claimed only six cases in 400 hundred years.
What do you think? :)


er.....what now? :confused:


4.) Whats up with that "fly wing hadith by Bukhari(again) Vol.4 Book 54, Num537.
I know Scooby is a big fan for dunking flys in his drinks like any good old tea bag.:)
Apparently Scooby doesn't know that the fly carries more crap than he has antidotes for.
So QUIT DUNKING FLYS Scooby!


LOL ROFLMAO the good old fly hadith. i cant TELL you the amount of headaches that caused for the "bukhari is infallible" people. i thought it was freakin hilarious. here is an obvious case of bullshit hadith-itis. they cant accept the fact that naked science proves it to be a load of crap, so they paint themselves into a corner defending it.



Thanks for your time

Frank

not at all, thank you! if you have any more questions go right ahead mate.

[mephibosheth]

What are the main sects of Islam prevalent today, and what is the differences between them?

In your opinion, which ones are more authentic and which ones are more heretical?

8)

[islamvslizards]

What are the main sects of Islam prevalent today, and what is the differences between them?


broadly speaking i would say that islam can be split into two main sects - the shia and the sunni. i believe that they have both been infiltrated, but the sunnis to a much, much greater degree, since they rejected the ahlebeyt as soon as the prophet died so were left with a literalist approach to the quran ever since.

however the shias have been infiltrated in the sense that there is a mass extermination going on of any bright lights, any great leaders, and has been going on since the start of the umayyads.

of the two, the sunnis are the majority, due mainly to the fact of the money being pumped into sunni centres all over the world by the wahabbis in saudi. walk down almost any street in the UK these days and ull be able to spot a mosque nearby - all the money to build these is coming from one source - the wahabbis.

the difference between them is this:

(1) the shias believe that the prophet left clear and unambiguous statements as to who would be the leader of the muslim ummah after he died, specifically and most famously at the place called ghadir khum after his farewell pilgrimage to mecca before he died, when he gave a speech in front of 100,000 companions and for 3 days made them pledge allegiance to ali.

shias follow ali, and see him as the rightful leader, and a member of the ahlebeyt, and the best suited to rule considering his lifetime spent with the prophet in the prohets house (alis father adopted the prophet and raised him from a child, making the prophet and ali almost brothers)

(2) sunnis believe that the prophet either forgot, or did not realise to leave guidance as to leadership of the muslim nation after his death. (he must have been busy marrying 5 year olds or something lol).

sunnis were formed around 300 years after the prophets death, there are 4 sunni "imams" - abu hanifa, shafii, malik and hanbal, who founded the four "branches" of sunni islam. there is no mention as to who was a sunni during the prophets life or the 300 years between the prophet dying and the rise of the sunnis. in these intervening 300 years there was only shia, and non shia. sunnis didnt exist.

the sunni belief is that once the prophet died since there were no set rules for guidance, some of the companions held an election and selected abu bakr as the 1st caliph. after this abu bakr personally selected umar, and when umar came close to death he chose a few people out of which usman was selected for the third caliph.

by this time the muslim ummah was sick and tired of the 3 caliphs, there was a mass revolt to remove usman after his nepotism and disregard for islamic laws, he was killed and the people suddenly remembered the prophets selection of ali, so ali became the fourth caliph.


In your opinion, which ones are more authentic and which ones are more heretical?

8)

i wouldnt say heretical, thats too strong. islam is all about intentions man. if someone follows whatever path with a pure intention to become closer to his creator, then its all good.

[decode reality]

Greetings...

I wondered what your thoughts were on the Alberto Rivera doccument 'How The Vatican Created Islam'?

Thanks :)

[major seven]

Hey Islam
Thanks again for your replys,
It can't be easy trying to answer questions of a religion that has so much negative press going against it, especially when the bad guys get grouped in with the folks who are just trying to be cool.

You should write a book :) Or have you?
You appear to have sources and knowledge way beyond the average muslim not to mention their spiritual leader imam guys who are doing their level best to maintain the status quo as it were.
You should have a bigger audiance than this little ole forum populated by about six or seven muslims.

From what I can gather so far is that there are around one billion odd muslims that believe a lot of bullshit.
Not real sure how that can be rectified after 1400 years of the same old, same old.
Just talking about Islam here at the moment since I'm sure the Catholics and the Jews can come up with some interesting bullshit of their own, eh what?

Trouble is, if someone such as yourself say, writes a book about all them bullshit hadiths and other misconceptions, you might wake up one day to find a fatwa taken out on your ass like that poor guy Salman Rushdie.
Looks like he has been fatwaed for life since, apparently, a fatwa can't be revoked except by the one who made it rule.
In Iran, that would be your lovely Ayotolah Khomeini who is obviously now dead.
Now there was a fun guy who must have been a lot of laughs at partys.
He would of made a great streight man for Bud Abbot or Jack Benny. :)

Of course you could always "ghost write" the book. Just make sure you don't get your photo took, or better yet, use a photo of somebody you don't like.
I recommend that big Dick, Cheny or even better, that dilhole Paul Wolfawitz.:)

The average muslim just like the average christian and whoever else generally can't be bothered by all the research it takes to really get into what makes their religion tick, and usually are content to just leave it up to the guys that get paid to feed them their daily bread as it were.

Unfortunately we now have that muslim radical militant contingent, who by using the same Koranic and Hadith verses, interpret them to fit their actions.
"Houston!!! We have a problem!!!"

Personally, I see no end in sight to all this crap with Palestinians and Jews.
Even with Arrafuckingfat running around trying to look important with all those phony peace in the middle east attempts, you can tell it was all bullshit.

The Jews keep on breeding another crop of pissed off muslims who are going to go radical on somebody and the Jews are going to keep doing what they do best and that is blow them up.
What a freakin merry-go-round!

So what are we looking forward to now?
Well, I see the militants still doing militant type crap everywhere they can in the name of Allah, of course.

No revoking on the tall cave twit's fatwa on the west to convert or be destoyed.

Continued Islam misconceptions by muslims and non-muslims.

The Jews finally blow up the Dome of the Rock and build their third temple before the dust clears.

Miltant radicals finally getting their hands on some WMD of some sort or another and happily using them to wipe out Jews and all of their supporters.
In the name of Allah, of course.

White supremisists neo nazi nut jobs doing a fatwa of their own on any muslim in the neighborhood.

Scooby will continue to dunk flies in his drink because Mohammed said it was OK. :)

Damn Islam! You need to hurry up with that book so it can be carpet bombed all over the planet.
Think that might work?
Peace on Earth!
Yeah! That'll happen!

Frank the Optimist :)

[gu3rr1lla]

Salam walaikom wah rahmatu allah baraktu (hope i said that right :D) islamvslizards, good to have you. I was born Catholic, then a few years ago I came a Muslim, and now I dont have a religion though I just want to say that whatever "religion" i was it was the same God that I was talking to.

Wondering does Islam teach anything about nature and how we should treat animals. I ask because at times I find God the most is when im alone out in the wild and seeing the beauty he created. I'd be interested to hear what he had to say about wildlife. Thanks. Fi amanullah :)

[eternal_spirit]

Sacrifice and Hal al meat comes to mind.

[informationx]

hello, and peace be on you all.

im a big time fan of david icke, and yep, im a muslim. and whats more i know enough to talk about islam and "conspiracy" theories and all kinds of funky stuff.

so if you have any questions, feel free, ill answer using as many "islamic" sources as i can, you would be suprised at how much you guys dont know.

Hello, welcome.

What is the most faithful, correct translation of the Koran please. :D

And Im a big fan of Ahmed Deedat!

[bendoon]

When are Muslims going to stop trying to take over Europe ?

Will they ever go home and leave us in peace ?

[drael]

How common is your attitude towards mystic islamic religion?

Overall chirstianity is quite intolerant toward it, and in judiac religion they must study for 30 years or something before being allowed to look at the text mystically.

I know little koran, but i do know, its very literally mystic in places.

Cheers man.

[eternal_spirit]

Why two spellings Koran and Quaran, is it the same meanings why we have Kabbalah and Quabala?
someone correct my spelling lol.

[unbornawakened]

Hello,

I wonder how literally you believe in Islam ? A literal interpretation of any religion would be in contradiction with David Icke's thoughts. Do you have a free interpretation of your own, where you simply pick what you find useful ? Or are you more Sufi-leaning ?


P.S. By the way, I come from a Shia Muslim family, although neither of my parents were practicing or believing in the religion. I am not religious myself
hello, and peace be on you all.

im a big time fan of david icke, and yep, im a muslim. and whats more i know enough to talk about islam and "conspiracy" theories and all kinds of funky stuff.

so if you have any questions, feel free, ill answer using as many "islamic" sources as i can, you would be suprised at how much you guys dont know.

[mephibosheth]

Why two spellings Koran and Quaran, is it the same meanings why we have Kabbalah and Quabala?
someone correct my spelling lol.

Its just variations on the english translation. You could have--

Koran
Qur'an
Quraan

Each is more or less trying to capture the phonetic of the term, methinks.

You'll see this with a lot of Arabic terms used in Islam, eg, 'kafir' vs 'kuffar' (unbeliever).

[mephibosheth]

When are Muslims going to stop trying to take over Europe ?


When all the infidels are dead, of course!

:eek:

Meanwhile, when will all the Christians stop trying to take over the rest of the world?

[major seven]

When all the infidels are dead, of course!

:eek:

Meanwhile, when will all the Christians stop trying to take over the rest of the world?


When all the muslims are dead, of course!! :)

[islamvslizards]

Greetings...

I wondered what your thoughts were on the Alberto Rivera doccument 'How The Vatican Created Islam'?

Thanks :)

hi mate, good to hear from you again ;)

the theory that the vatican created islam falls down on a number of reasons, its been a while since i read it on scribd, but off the top of my head i can remember:

(1) traveling missionaries to the arab peninsula, the vatican, or even christians living in that area at that time, could never have come up with such a perfect and flawless mathematical code, while at the same time using the language of the quran as the "high" poetic form of archaic arabic, and both fitting together in perfect harmony. if they COULD, they why didnt they apply it to the bible or their own holy texts as proof of the signs of god that their books were divinely inspired?

(2) if any psuedo religion was "created" by the vatican, then it was catholisim itself. for example their gods just got their names changed but the temples stayed the same, eg jupiter became saint paul, venus became mary mother of jesus and so on.

(3) the muslims do not see the prophet as a messiah. they see him as a prophet. the messiah will return at the end times.

*ok ive just scanned through the article again on scribd lol*

(4) the claims about hazrat khatija (as) being a spy for the christians is all well and good...except for the fact that she was wealthy even after she married the prophet (she didnt give up her money), the prophet himself was a wealthy businessman, from a high ranking family, and not a manipulatale child as made out, she protected him, she was the first woman to pray the muslim prayers, and there is no reliable, independant evidence apart from the rivera article itself (which btw is not referenced in any way) which state this.

(5) the claims that hazrat waraqahs "interpretations" created the bible are laughable. the guy was an old, blind man when this happened and died soon afterwards yet the quran was revealed in stages over the next 30 years or so. if he died early on in the advent of islam, how could his "interpretations" have formed the quran???

(6) some of mohammeds writings were placed in the quran, some were never published, they are now in the hands of high ranking holy men (ayatollahs) in the islamic faith

again, such ignorance!!!! the revelations which are not in the quran are known as "hadith qudsi". theres no secret, and no forbidden knowledge man. wiki article on hadith qudsi, more or less accurate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_qudsi). theres loads of them, freely available. me or you could wander into any hawza in qum, or najaf, or kerbala, or syria, and take a look through the islamic libraries. the only reason that there are not more freely available, is because they havent been translated yet.

only someone who didnt know what they were talking about, or making things up based on half truths, would not know about hadith qudsi.

(7) muslims DEFINATELY do not fear the pope, nor do we see him as a "holy man", any more, or any less, than any other leader of any other world faith. we respect all beliefs, catholic popes or not. the same was true at the time of the prophet. if you could provide me with hadiths stating muslims should fear/respect the pope, then by all means go ahead :)

(8) the prophet never invaded any north african lands, nor did he ever even attempt at building an empire. all the battles were in self defence, with the exception of mecca which he saw as his right, since his family were tardional keepers of the kaaba. what came after his life, whether infiltrated by the vatican or not, does not concern the prophets life.


(9) after the death of his daughter, muhammed wrote that she "is the most holy of all women in paradise, next to mary"

my god, such a level of ignorance, which i know people have accepted without second thought, is truly frightening.

not only does the author not know what hes talking about, he is actually saying complete falsehoods and stating them as fact!!!!

- the prophets daughter died SIX MONTHS AFTER THE PROPHET, NOT BEFORE

- she was murdered by a band of people sent by the first caliph abu bakr, led by the second caliph umar, who set her house on fire, kicked a door onto her pregnany belly (killing the foetus) and breaking her ribs, then whipping her. she died from her injuries weeks later.

- the muslim view is that she has a HIGHER status in heaven then mary mother of jesus. there are plenty of hadiths (if the author had actually bothered to check), for example:

Tradition: The Messenger of Allah said: "Al-Hassan and al-Hussain are the chiefs of the youth of Paradise and Fatimah is the chief of their women."

Sunni references:

* Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p660, on the authority of Abu Sa'id and Hudhayfa
* Sunan Ibn Majah, Introduction 8
* Al-Tabarani, on the authorities of: Umar, Ali, Jabir, Abu Hurayrah, Usamah Ibn Zaid, al-Baraa, Ibn 'Adi, and Ibn Masud.
* Al-Kubra, by al-Nisa'i
* Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 62,82, v3, pp 3,64, v5, p391
* Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, p771, Tradition (7) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, pp 166,167
* Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v5, p71
* Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p187
* Tuhfatul Ashraf, by Lumzi, v3, p31
* Ibn Habban, as mentioned in al-Mawarid, pp 551,553
* al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami, Ch. 11, section 3, p290
* Mishkat al-Masabih, by Khatib al-Tabrizi, English Version, Tdadition

[islamvslizards]

Hey Islam
Thanks again for your replys,
It can't be easy trying to answer questions of a religion that has so much negative press going against it, especially when the bad guys get grouped in with the folks who are just trying to be cool.

You should write a book :) Or have you?
You appear to have sources and knowledge way beyond the average muslim not to mention their spiritual leader imam guys who are doing their level best to maintain the status quo as it were.
You should have a bigger audiance than this little ole forum populated by about six or seven muslims.

Frank the Optimist :)

LOL bro Frank that was a great post.

no, i havent written a book, im definately in the below average level of knowledge when it comes to islam. i am educated to shia standards so its naturally much higher than the sunni standard so it SEEMS like i know loads, but when you compare me to actual knowledgeable shias, they can just blow your socks off with the sort of knowledge they have, and as for ayatollahs...well, im sure you can imagine.

[islamvslizards]

Salam walaikom wah rahmatu allah baraktu (hope i said that right :D) islamvslizards, good to have you. I was born Catholic, then a few years ago I came a Muslim, and now I dont have a religion though I just want to say that whatever "religion" i was it was the same God that I was talking to.

Wondering does Islam teach anything about nature and how we should treat animals. I ask because at times I find God the most is when im alone out in the wild and seeing the beauty he created. I'd be interested to hear what he had to say about wildlife. Thanks. Fi amanullah :)

Wa Alaikum As Salaam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaa tuhu bro, i hope this post finds you in the best of health and imaan :)

islam teaches absolutely WONDERFUL things about nature and animals, really great stuff. i am going to dig up some of the hadiths and show them to you, i guarantee that you will enjoy them :D

fi amaanillah bro

[islamvslizards]

Hello, welcome.

What is the most faithful, correct translation of the Koran please. :D

And Im a big fan of Ahmed Deedat!

lol, muslims are meant to actually learn arabic properly so they can read and understand the words for themselves. failing that, there are 3 "main" translations that or more or less accepted as reliable, they are

- shakir translation
- yusuf ali translation
- pickthall translation

you have to kinda read all three at once and get a "feel" for what theyre saying, and at the same time read what famous reliable scholars have said about it.

all the ayats i have been posting have been from the shakir translation, it seems to be the closest to the original arabic, based on what my arab mates tell me. if you want to have a look its available online at

this website (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/)

ahmed deedat, hes the guy taught by the ahmadiyyas right? loving his discussions with the christians tho, the guy kills it lol

[islamvslizards]

When are Muslims going to stop trying to take over Europe ?

Will they ever go home and leave us in peace ?

i dont think wahabbis will ever stop. they are backed by saudi, who are backed by the US. they have an agenda, and we all know what the powers that be are like once they are working to a plan.

please replace "muslims" with "wahabbis". regular muslims have no interest in converting the masses or fighting the good fight with all their might.

[element]

When are Muslims going to stop trying to take over Europe ?

Will they ever go home and leave us in peace ?
But how do you know what 'home' is? People travel the globe through history all the time. Do you want everyone in a nice box?

[islamvslizards]

How common is your attitude towards mystic islamic religion?


interesting question, it depends on what you mean by "mystic" islamic religion, see there are two forms, the more commonly known "sufi", and the less well known, but astonishingly spiritual "irfan", or "gnostics". all the highest scholars encourage everyone to become an "urefa" (one who follows the gnostic path), its benefits being the ability to see things and experience things others cant, the ability to know the future and all kinds of things. there are word of mouth accounts that one high scholar, ayatollah behjat, can actually fly, such is his level, but its never been filmed.

there was a really good book written by the famous scholar mutahari, introducing the concepts of irfan, you can read it online here:

an introduction to irfan (http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/irfan.htm)

as for sufism, the general view is that it started off as a more or less good path, but has been infiltrated and distorted through the centuries, to the point where it is unrecognisable from what it started out as.

the shia view has never favoured sufism, but always focused towards gnostisism.


Overall chirstianity is quite intolerant toward it, and in judiac religion they must study for 30 years or something before being allowed to look at the text mystically.

I know little koran, but i do know, its very literally mystic in places.

Cheers man.

yes, you are spot on. there are so many layers of meaning in the quran, its astonishing. anyone is free to follow the gnostic path tho, the info is all there freely available. if i wanted to i could get up and start right now, its even available online lol.

[islamvslizards]

Hello,

I wonder how literally you believe in Islam ? A literal interpretation of any religion would be in contradiction with David Icke's thoughts. Do you have a free interpretation of your own, where you simply pick what you find useful ? Or are you more Sufi-leaning ?


hi bro.

i believe that some islam is literal, and some allegorical. a mix of the two. the quran itself is clear that this is indeed the case.

you dont really have a free interpretation of your own, instead you rely on the interpretations of scholars who have spent 50+ years learning and studying, and compare what they have said about a particular ayat. i know of one scholar whose intepretations and discussions on ayats of the quran make up a 100 BOOK LIBRARY. such is the level of detail and intricasy involved. the tafsir al mizan, the book i rely on the most in this thread, itself is a 30 book monster.

all these wahabbi mullahs who read an ayat and appy their own conjecture on it and use it as evidence to commit atrocities are retards.

im not a sufi, i lean towards gnostics but am anti taqleed so a bit of an odd case.

[bendoon]

When all the infidels are dead, of course!

:eek:

Meanwhile, when will all the Christians stop trying to take over the rest of the world?

I do not see millions of Christians flocking to Pakistan for a free house, social security and building Churches all over the shop. Maybe they are but they just don't put it on the Tele.

[bendoon]

i dont think wahabbis will ever stop. they are backed by saudi, who are backed by the US. they have an agenda, and we all know what the powers that be are like once they are working to a plan.

please replace "muslims" with "wahabbis". regular muslims have no interest in converting the masses or fighting the good fight with all their might.

Thanks for the measured response, respect. :cool:

Now a serious question, why don't Muslims read the Bible as they are commanded in the Koran.

The usual response I get to this question is;

"Its been corrupted by Jews and Christians"

My response would be;

"Why would Allah tell you to do something you couldn't do ?"

They didn't really answer that one.

[element]

I do not see millions of Christians flocking to Pakistan for a free house, social security and building Churches all over the shop. Maybe they are but they just don't put it on the Tele.
Most christians live quite rich materially speaken.

[decode reality]

hi mate, good to hear from you again ;)

the theory that the vatican created islam falls down on a number of reasons, its been a while since i read it on scribd, but off the top of my head i can remember:

(1) traveling missionaries to the arab peninsula, the vatican, or even christians living in that area at that time, could never have come up with such a perfect and flawless mathematical code, while at the same time using the language of the quran as the "high" poetic form of archaic arabic, and both fitting together in perfect harmony. if they COULD, they why didnt they apply it to the bible or their own holy texts as proof of the signs of god that their books were divinely inspired?

(2) if any psuedo religion was "created" by the vatican, then it was catholisim itself. for example their gods just got their names changed but the temples stayed the same, eg jupiter became saint paul, venus became mary mother of jesus and so on.

(3) the muslims do not see the prophet as a messiah. they see him as a prophet. the messiah will return at the end times.

*ok ive just scanned through the article again on scribd lol*

(4) the claims about hazrat khatija (as) being a spy for the christians is all well and good...except for the fact that she was wealthy even after she married the prophet (she didnt give up her money), the prophet himself was a wealthy businessman, from a high ranking family, and not a manipulatale child as made out, she protected him, she was the first woman to pray the muslim prayers, and there is no reliable, independant evidence apart from the rivera article itself (which btw is not referenced in any way) which state this.

(5) the claims that hazrat waraqahs "interpretations" created the bible are laughable. the guy was an old, blind man when this happened and died soon afterwards yet the quran was revealed in stages over the next 30 years or so. if he died early on in the advent of islam, how could his "interpretations" have formed the quran???

(6)

again, such ignorance!!!! the revelations which are not in the quran are known as "hadith qudsi". theres no secret, and no forbidden knowledge man. wiki article on hadith qudsi, more or less accurate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_qudsi). theres loads of them, freely available. me or you could wander into any hawza in qum, or najaf, or kerbala, or syria, and take a look through the islamic libraries. the only reason that there are not more freely available, is because they havent been translated yet.

only someone who didnt know what they were talking about, or making things up based on half truths, would not know about hadith qudsi.

(7) muslims DEFINATELY do not fear the pope, nor do we see him as a "holy man", any more, or any less, than any other leader of any other world faith. we respect all beliefs, catholic popes or not. the same was true at the time of the prophet. if you could provide me with hadiths stating muslims should fear/respect the pope, then by all means go ahead :)

(8) the prophet never invaded any north african lands, nor did he ever even attempt at building an empire. all the battles were in self defence, with the exception of mecca which he saw as his right, since his family were tardional keepers of the kaaba. what came after his life, whether infiltrated by the vatican or not, does not concern the prophets life.


(9)

my god, such a level of ignorance, which i know people have accepted without second thought, is truly frightening.

not only does the author not know what hes talking about, he is actually saying complete falsehoods and stating them as fact!!!!

- the prophets daughter died SIX MONTHS AFTER THE PROPHET, NOT BEFORE

- she was murdered by a band of people sent by the first caliph abu bakr, led by the second caliph umar, who set her house on fire, kicked a door onto her pregnany belly (killing the foetus) and breaking her ribs, then whipping her. she died from her injuries weeks later.

- the muslim view is that she has a HIGHER status in heaven then mary mother of jesus. there are plenty of hadiths (if the author had actually bothered to check), for example:

Tradition: The Messenger of Allah said: "Al-Hassan and al-Hussain are the chiefs of the youth of Paradise and Fatimah is the chief of their women."

Sunni references:

* Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p660, on the authority of Abu Sa'id and Hudhayfa
* Sunan Ibn Majah, Introduction 8
* Al-Tabarani, on the authorities of: Umar, Ali, Jabir, Abu Hurayrah, Usamah Ibn Zaid, al-Baraa, Ibn 'Adi, and Ibn Masud.
* Al-Kubra, by al-Nisa'i
* Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 62,82, v3, pp 3,64, v5, p391
* Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, p771, Tradition (7) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, pp 166,167
* Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v5, p71
* Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p187
* Tuhfatul Ashraf, by Lumzi, v3, p31
* Ibn Habban, as mentioned in al-Mawarid, pp 551,553
* al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami, Ch. 11, section 3, p290
* Mishkat al-Masabih, by Khatib al-Tabrizi, English Version, Tdadition


Thanks for this detailed reply, certainly food for thought and study. My jury is out in deliberation on this one, to be honest. I personally won't be ruling out the possibility of the Vatican's creation of Islam but as you say, there is only Rivera's word thus far (if there is any more to substantiate his thesis, I would be interested to know):)

[islamvslizards]

Thanks for the measured response, respect. :cool:

Now a serious question, why don't Muslims read the Bible as they are commanded in the Koran.

The usual response I get to this question is;

"Its been corrupted by Jews and Christians"

My response would be;

"Why would Allah tell you to do something you couldn't do ?"

They didn't really answer that one.

thanks, however in truth i was in a BOILING rage and writing a fatwa calling for your immediate death, you filthy infidel, as i was posting lol.

muslims are meant to read the bible, ive got one called the "good news bible" in my personal library. i think the problem most muslims have with the bible is, what version to read? i guess theres so many versions, each one very different to the next, most muslims feel as though they arent sure which is the "right" one and dont trust the translations, since we are meant to read the holy books in their original language (ie learn it), but since we dont know for sure WHAT the original language is, nor if there are any surviving copies IN that language, and then learning the language in question....most muslims just dont bother lol.

we read snippets here and there, the psalms are great, but as a start to end read, i wud say very few actually do

[islamvslizards]

Thanks for this detailed reply, certainly food for thought and study. My jury is out in deliberation on this one, to be honest. I personally won't be ruling out the possibility of the Vatican's creation of Islam but as you say, there is only Rivera's word thus far (if there is any more to substantiate his thesis, I would be interested to know):)

thank you, if you would like more evidence to back up my claims, this can of course be provided for you? to "tip the scales" so to speak against mr rivera???

[bendoon]

Most christians live quite rich materially speaken.

Riiiight, so thats why everyone wants to come and live here :D;)

[picha]

hello, and peace be on you all.

im a big time fan of david icke, and yep, im a muslim. and whats more i know enough to talk about islam and "conspiracy" theories and all kinds of funky stuff.

so if you have any questions, feel free, ill answer using as many "islamic" sources as i can, you would be suprised at how much you guys dont know.


Do you believe that mohammed is the perfect example of a human being?

[islamvslizards]

Do you believe that mohammed is the perfect example of a human being?

yes. i believe he is A perfect example of a human being.

[picha]

yes. i believe he is A perfect example of a human being.

Could you elaborate on that please?

[islamvslizards]

Could you elaborate on that please?

sure thing man.

its like this: the muslim belief is that from the prophet adam, to judgement day, there always has been, and always will be, divinely chosen guides for humanity, to show people how to live decent lives and follow a single god. the prophets down the ages brought bits and pieces of the message of islam, so from adam to mohammed, the "rules" so to speak of islam, or the sharia, came in pieces, building up to a whole.

one of the titles of mohammed is "the seal of prophethood", i.e. the one who completed the revelations that started with adam. it is a muslim belief, and it is written in the quran, that the prophet from birth was only every able to speak the word of god

its a fundamental difference, and one which the infiltrators have exploited horribly, that people these days say he was just a regular old guy who had an illness or something, and every now and again revelations "popped" into his head which were written down, forming the quran.

the actual view in the quran and major reliable hadiths, is that the prophet wasnt "made" a prophet when he was middle aged, he was BORN a prophet, and was unable to speak idle chatter or do anything against the will of god. the quran says:

[53.1] I swear by the star when it goes down.
[53.2] Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray;
[53.3] Nor does he speak out of desire.
[53.4] It is naught but revelation that is revealed,
[53.5] The Lord of Mighty Power has taught him,

do you see? its written plain and simple, in black and white, that the prophet was taught by god, he does not speak out of his own desire, but the word of god, and he cannot make mistakes or sin.

the prophet is known as the "perfect" man, because he was the prophet that perfected the religious revelation that began with adam, and embodied it absolutely, how man is meant to live. there have been many bullshit hadiths attributed to him, but if you strip them away and look at the actual reliable stuff, i doubt you will even be able to find a single MISTAKE he made in his life. he was the gentlest, humblest, most knowledgable man i believe ever born.

when it comes to the revelation of the quran, we believe that the prophet was actually taught everything at once, when the angel gabriel visited him for the first time, but the ayats were revealed in stages over his life when certain things came to pass.

what do you think?

[anthony65]

hello, and peace be on you all.

im a big time fan of david icke, and yep, im a muslim. and whats more i know enough to talk about islam and "conspiracy" theories and all kinds of funky stuff.

so if you have any questions, feel free, ill answer using as many "islamic" sources as i can, you would be suprised at how much you guys dont know.

:)

Great idea for a thread.

No questions right now, but I did want to mention that I often express my solidarity with muslims in the region where I live; even if it's just with a smile :)

** One nice story was on the train when the topic got on to terrorism and I said (extra loud ;)) that Islamic terrorism was a creation of western intelligence agencies, etc. etc.). ** And I used to believe the government line :o

From behind me someone said something, and there was this very big bloke wearing Islamic dress and a neat little beard.

He agreed with me and we spoke for a few minutes before I got off the train.

He was maybe early twenties, tall, handsome, eloquent and somehow had a special aura about him. (and before anyone comments, my 2 year old son is magnificently handsome: I can see beauty without it being sexual. So no smutty comments please :rolleyes:)

It was almost like meeting an angel! :D

He was certainly a wonderful advert for Islam and for humanity!

** I was even invited to speak at a mosque once by an elderly bloke (maybe an imam?). But I didn't feel ready for that.

** I have many muslim friends, many on the secular side, some religious but definitely tolerant and mainly more open to exchanging ideas, especially spiritual, than my "Christian" friends and acquaintances. And depending on their country of origin, ethnic background they know loads about their cultures and history :D

Diversity? I love it! :)

[islamvslizards]

thanks for the kinds word bro, and thanks for the story :) thats what islams all about man, people getting along with each other in peace and brotherhood.

made my day anthony, thanks a lot!

[jesuitsdidit]

wots yr opinion on 'The Nation of Islam' ??

[mephibosheth]

I have many muslim friends, many on the secular side

There's no such thing as a 'secular' Muslim. You can't be Muslim and practice the ways of kafir at the same time.

[islamvslizards]

There's no such thing as a 'secular' Muslim. You can't be Muslim and practice the ways of kafir at the same time.

of course you can. the rules are that so long as you do not do anything which is a sin eg drinking alcohol, eating pork, fornicating etc, then you are totally free to adopt the cultures of the community you settle in, in fact, this is encouraged.

guess which sect has the attitude you just described - hint: it isnt the sunnis or the shias.

[islamvslizards]

wots yr opinion on 'The Nation of Islam' ??

they have many unusual beliefs, which fall slightly outside the realms of islam, especially in regards to elijah mohammed. however they live in peace and dignity, and fight opression, so i respect them for this sake, and ignore their beliefs (all white man are literally the devil, elijah mohammed is a prophet etc) since thats between them and their maker.

mind u, cant say ive ever met one in the UK so my authority to talk about them is decreased even more lol

[mephibosheth]

of course you can. the

My point was that you cant be a secular Muslim. Thats an oxymoron. Just like you can't be a secular Hebrew or a secular Christian. When people say this, they are not using the titles properly, and are conflating race and culture with religion.

Either you practice your religion or you don't. If you don't, you can't very well say that you're a practioner of your religion!

[mephibosheth]

guess which sect has the attitude you just described - hint: it isnt the sunnis or the shias.

Maybe the Ismailis...?

[islamvslizards]

My point was that you cant be a secular Muslim. Thats an oxymoron. Just like you can't be a secular Hebrew or a secular Christian. When people say this, they are not using the titles properly, and are conflating race and culture with religion.

Either you practice your religion or you don't. If you don't, you can't very well say that you're a practioner of your religion!

ah good point, secular isnt used right. its common to confuse "secular" with "cultural", when it means like you said that it means non practicing of religion.

[islamvslizards]

Maybe the Ismailis...?

LOL hahahahaha yeah thats the scoundrels! got it in one :rolleyes:

[mephibosheth]

Do you think there is such a thing as 'progressive Islam'?

Related, do you think Islam can embrace, for example, feminists who desire to retain the roots of the faith (in one God) but cast off the outward forms of identification (like hijab)?

[picha]

sure thing man.

its like this: the muslim belief is that from the prophet adam, to judgement day, there always has been, and always will be, divinely chosen guides for humanity, to show people how to live decent lives and follow a single god. the prophets down the ages brought bits and pieces of the message of islam, so from adam to mohammed, the "rules" so to speak of islam, or the sharia, came in pieces, building up to a whole.

one of the titles of mohammed is "the seal of prophethood", i.e. the one who completed the revelations that started with adam. it is a muslim belief, and it is written in the quran, that the prophet from birth was only every able to speak the word of god

its a fundamental difference, and one which the infiltrators have exploited horribly, that people these days say he was just a regular old guy who had an illness or something, and every now and again revelations "popped" into his head which were written down, forming the quran.

the actual view in the quran and major reliable hadiths, is that the prophet wasnt "made" a prophet when he was middle aged, he was BORN a prophet, and was unable to speak idle chatter or do anything against the will of god. the quran says:

[53.1] I swear by the star when it goes down.
[53.2] Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray;
[53.3] Nor does he speak out of desire.
[53.4] It is naught but revelation that is revealed,
[53.5] The Lord of Mighty Power has taught him,

do you see? its written plain and simple, in black and white, that the prophet was taught by god, he does not speak out of his own desire, but the word of god, and he cannot make mistakes or sin.

the prophet is known as the "perfect" man, because he was the prophet that perfected the religious revelation that began with adam, and embodied it absolutely, how man is meant to live. there have been many bullshit hadiths attributed to him, but if you strip them away and look at the actual reliable stuff, i doubt you will even be able to find a single MISTAKE he made in his life. he was the gentlest, humblest, most knowledgable man i believe ever born.

when it comes to the revelation of the quran, we believe that the prophet was actually taught everything at once, when the angel gabriel visited him for the first time, but the ayats were revealed in stages over his life when certain things came to pass.

what do you think?

Ok so youve told me that you do think that mohammed is the perfect example of a human being.

So can I ask you if having someone murdered because you dont like what they have said about you is a good example of how to behave?

THE MURDER OF KAB BIN AL-ASHRAF

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/ashraf.htm

[eternal_spirit]

Mohammed the peado who married a 9 year old. He'd be killed for that here not made a Prophet! Child brides are still married Today with the blessings if Islam.

Isn't it about time you Muslims left your religion and joined the rest of the human race.

[unbornawakened]

I hope I am not misinterpreting you but if you are solely focusing on Islam and Muslim as the source of "evil deeds" you are wrong.

The Jewish Torah has things worse than exist in Islam (and since Christianity includes the old testament - same for Christianity). For example, stoning as a punishment for adultery (and punishment by death for what would be consider minor infringements today). What's the difference then ? Too many muslim clerics, and those who follow them, still stick to a literal interpretation of the religion. In Europe over the last 500 years, the efforts of enlightened and intellectual people changed the interpretation of religion.


As for child brides, I would suggest you also consider the huge child pornography industry in "Christian" Western countries. Are you not equally outraged by what is going on in the West with child pornography ?

Mohammed the peado who married a 9 year old. He'd be killed for that here not made a Prophet! Child brides are still married Today with the blessings if Islam.

Isn't it about time you Muslims left your religion and joined the rest of the human race.

[eternal_spirit]

[quote]The Jewish Torah has things worse than exist in Islam (and since Christianity includes the old testament - same for Christianity). For example, stoning as a punishment for adultery (and punishment by death for what would be consider minor infringements today). What's the difference then ? Too many muslim clerics, and those who follow them, still stick to a literal interpretation of the religion. In Europe over the last 500 years, the efforts of enlightened and intellectual people changed the interpretation of religion.
Correct Islam needs to catch up with the modern world and reform itself, take out the insane parts like the other religions have done. And thus lies the solution.

As for child brides, I would suggest you also consider the huge child pornography industry in "Christian" Western countries. Are you not equally outraged by what is going on in the West with child pornography ?Nothing to do with religion Some forms of Islam (maybe all forms I don't know and I don't want to label them all the same) condones child brides. There wasn't even an age of consent in many African countries or India and other places around the world until recently, and not certain that there are any laws still in some places, or that it's possible laws are ignored.

I've even posted sources from Muslim's own texts and words claiming this to be true. Here it is again Stating that Mohammed married a 9 year old and it's ok for Muslims to do the same.

And you know what a so called good Muslim does? Follow in the footsteps of their prophet Mohammed. :( Read it it's all there in plain English.

http://web.archive.org/web/200502051...riage.html#age (http://web.archive.org/web/20050205151045/www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/fatawawom/marriage.html#age)

[unbornawakened]

In some societies, in rural ares, both boys and girls are married in their early teens, I am not sure if it is good or bad but it applies to both sexes, and there is no inequality involved in the age itself. The phenomenon you are talking about is an old man marrying a young girl, right or wrong ?

This thread is about Islam but when we condemn one form of evil, we should always remember to condemn other forms as well. Child pornography may not have anything to do with religion, but it is to be condemned side by side.


Nothing to do with religion Some forms of Islam (maybe all forms I don't know and I don't want to label them all the same) condones child brides. There wasn't even an age of consent in many African countries or India and other places around the world until recently, and not certain that there are any laws still in some places, or that it's possible laws are ignored.

[who elsie]

hello, and peace be on you all.

im a big time fan of david icke, and yep, im a muslim. and whats more i know enough to talk about islam and "conspiracy" theories and all kinds of funky stuff.

so if you have any questions, feel free, ill answer using as many "islamic" sources as i can, you would be suprised at how much you guys dont know.

If not read all of this thread, so I don't know if it's been covered already, but as you ask, I would like to know why most Muslims are so violently anti-gay. I was shocked recently when working with a group of Muslims of mixed nationality that they harbored such anger and aggression towards this group of people. I had not heard such ignorant views on the subject since the 1970s. They even told me a story about the Black Sea, turning to dead, salt water because of a community of gay people that were drowned in it! They told me that this is standard teaching at Koran school! Are all Muslims that gullible to such nonsense?

I truly believe that if the world is ever going to have true peace, then we all must accept each others differences. Unfortunately, most Muslims don't seem to want to do this, which is a great shame, as there will always be huge gulfs between people if we can not reconcile our differences. Your thoughts would be welcome.

Peace!

[eternal_spirit]

Okay I'd say it's big con by the Muslim leaders/Imams on their people.

They want them to be anti- gay the real reason is to breed more Muslims.
They'd like a totally Islamic world and this helps with the numbers.
It's possible.
But there maybe other reasons that I don't know of.

[bendoon]

Why do Muslim men rape hundreds (possibly thousands) of white English school girls in the UK every year ?

Some as young as 11

Just in case you refute my assertion here are about 35 cases reported in local Newspapers in the last 4 days.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=850464&postcount=63

[zarah]

I hope I am not misinterpreting you but if you are solely focusing on Islam and Muslim as the source of "evil deeds" you are wrong.


As for child brides, I would suggest you also consider the huge child pornography industry in "Christian" Western countries. Are you not equally outraged by what is going on in the West with child pornography ?

No. of course they aren't, please don't be silly. :rolleyes:

[zarah]

Why do Muslim men rape hundreds (possibly thousands) of white English school girls in the UK every year ?

Some as young as 11

Just in case you refute my assertion here are about 35 cases reported in local Newspapers in the last 4 days.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=850464&postcount=63

Well actually you posted four or five, and I quite clearly and easily illustrated how there was no mention of their faith or lack there of.

So. Can you please provide evidence of the following:

1. Muslim men (and remember that this means practicing, not those who are born to Muslim parents but are secular, as are many millions of men of all races and colours who are born to Christian parents but commit violent crime) commit thousands of rapes of English schoolgirls (which means no older than 16) each year.

2. That these heinous attacks are committed because of their faith and because the girls are white. I think this evidence is equally important as (1) because the implication in your posts is that some intent exists in the acts you refer to. Obviously though, this evidence cannot be presented until (1) has been satisfied.

3. The ages of the girls in all of the attacks, so we can substantiate your claim that some of the children were as young as 11.

I await your prompt response.

[zarah]

Mohammed the peado who married a 9 year old. He'd be killed for that here not made a Prophet! Child brides are still married Today with the blessings if Islam.

Isn't it about time you Muslims left your religion and joined the rest of the human race.

Ummm...

A cursory glance at this island's history would confirm that from the Middle Ages and up to as comparatively recently as the 18th c, children could marry as soon as their menstrual cycle began. I certainly am not asserting this was common practice, but it occurred, as did the marrying of cousins and other family members. I can provide you with a link to an excellent dissertation on the changing social structure of England during the requisite period if you would like.

Isn't it about time you read the Qur'an for yourself rather than tiredly repeating inane anti Islamic rhetoric gleaned from equally ignorant online sources?

[zarah]

There's no such thing as a 'secular' Muslim. You can't be Muslim and practice the ways of kafir at the same time.

I think that depends on the deconstruction of the term 'Muslim' and whether one regards it as 'race' or 'faith'. While I understand that it technically isn't labelled as a race, I think our friend Benthingy has clearly illustrated how race and faith can be intertwined by those with not much understanding or capacity to gauge the difference. For this purpose, and for the sake of argument, I would accept the term secular Muslim, although I agree entirely with your point.

[danster82]

Islam is written in a warring context, why, because thousands of years ago when the religion was formed the country was a warring country of tribes and so God has to meet a people where they are in consciousness otherwise the message would be rejected. This is why its full of warring terminology. Like all religions there is not one thing that should be taken literally everything is symbolic and in reference to spirit. Jihad is a holy war against your enemy's which are all in your consciousness, those who interpret this to mean they need to kill all external threats have miss understood entirely and its not only tragic for them but also tragic for the religion.

[anthony65]

I think that depends on the deconstruction of the term 'Muslim' and whether one regards it as 'race' or 'faith'. While I understand that it technically isn't labelled as a race, I think our friend Benthingy has clearly illustrated how race and faith can be intertwined by those with not much understanding or capacity to gauge the difference. For this purpose, and for the sake of argument, I would accept the term secular Muslim, although I agree entirely with your point.

There have been a couple of good responses to my use of the term "secular muslim", but I'll reply to this one.

The friends I'm referring to are Turks. I'm sure that to strict muslims they would be considered very bad people :rolleyes: but they view themselves as muslim and they are proud of Turkey's secular tradition (whether that is a good or not so good thing is another story). These friends have pretty much the same "moral code" as most of the "Christian" people I know. They are very loyal and honest friends with a massive code of honour! :)

The muslim world is very big and very diverse.

The Islam haters and baiters generally don't acknowledge this. They choose to pick from the "worst" / most sensationalist they can find and use that as the yardstick. The same measure can of course be applied to any religion, race, culture, secret society, golf club membership, knitting circle....

I will not ignore injustice from any side, but by the same token I will make a stand for the fairness for any group.

[anthony65]

thanks for the kinds word bro, and thanks for the story :) thats what islams all about man, people getting along with each other in peace and brotherhood.

made my day anthony, thanks a lot!

Excellent! :)

And your reply just made mine!

I didn't always feel this way. I fell for some of the bullshit propaganda and had personal encounters with some Islamic extremists that helped to cement my prejudice.

But when I later discovered that Islamic fundamentalism and even Islamic terror was created and sponsored by the west I started to see muslims in a different light.

This coincided with the breaking of many of my prejudices to the extent that I now judge every man, woman and child solely by the quality of their heart.

** By "judge" I mean that when we meet people we have to make an instant evaluation of how we think they are. This initial judgement may be right or wrong, but it will not be based on race, religion, colour, sex, clothes, etc.

[pinkfreud]

hey OP, nice of you to 'offer' yourself to answer some tough questions, i say ;) considering the anti-muslim drivel that's been gaining ground here. i have many muslim friends, who are very liberal and they're just plain fucking amazing- but i don't know anything about the religion per se, so i'm hoping you could explain. i do have a 'problem' with some aspects of islam, but then again i have issues with most organised religions including my 'own'. :rolleyes:

anyway, i have numerous questions (sorry if they've been answered before- haven't read the entire thread), some of which are:



1. if you resonate with the idea of infinite consciousness, or the premise that submitting yourself to a higher god is actually giving yourself/your energies away (like icke says, all major religions are a form of mind control), then what would make islam different from any other religion?

for example:

technically, "muslim" means "one who submits (to allah)"

what advantage does submitting yourself to allah have over submitting yourself to say- jesus, abraham, vishnu or even buddha?




2. why don't women enjoy the 'freedoms' men do in most islamic nations? are secular islamic states like turkey and jordan considered 'unislamic' by countries like saudi arabia, where the laws don't even allow women to drive? and if, like you say, men and women are considered equal, is the clamping down on women's rights a deliberate move to tarnish the religion?

related- why is polygamy permitted in islam, but polyandry shunned? this doesn't make sense if both sexes are equal.




3. could you please explain what's the main difference between the sunni and shiite muslims (other than the fact they worship different prophets), and why shiia islam is looked down upon, or sometimes considered unpure by followers of sunni islam?




4. what do you have to say about some people stating that islam is actually very deeply connected to freemasonry?








thanks in advance.

[eternal_spirit]

quote: anthony65
But when I later discovered that Islamic fundamentalism and even Islamic terror was created and sponsored by the west I started to see muslims in a different light.
Blame it all on whitey:rolleyes:

[eternal_spirit]

1. History Sindh, Invasions, Arab contact, trade, civilization, India ...

"2 May 2002 ... The claim that Sindh during the 7th century was reeling from the hegemony ... several 5th-7th C Gupta-period land decrees demonstrate that caste .... It was the cohesive force of Islam that enabled the Arabs to combine ..."
http://india_resource.tripod.com/sindh.html

2. History of the Southern Levant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Philistines (whose traces disappear before the 5th century BCE) are ..... to the Islamic Arab invasion of the Eastern Roman Empire in the 7th century. ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

3. History of Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Xuanzang reports in his travels across India during the 7th century of Buddhism ... By the end of the 12th century, following the Islamic conquest of the ... the White Hun invasion in the 5th century where under the King Mihirkula they ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Buddhism

4. Arabia - History. Pre-Islamic Arabia, to the 7th Century AD.

"Pre-Islamic Arabia, to the 7th Century. History of Arabia The history of Arabia and its inhabitants naturally divides itself into two distinct and even ..."
www.1902encyclopedia.com/A/ARA/arabia-40.html (http://www.1902encyclopedia.com/A/ARA/arabia-40.html)

5. Durga's origins :Shahi and Kashmiri Durga

"Facing to the islamic invasions, the evolution of Durga's image in the Turki ... 3rd century until the Hephthalit invasions at the end of the 5th century. ... because of the islamic invasions of the 7th century, Islam prohibiting the ..."
www.scribd.com/doc/11372340/Durgas-origins-Shahi-and-Kashmiri-Durga (http://www.scribd.com/doc/11372340/Durgas-origins-Shahi-and-Kashmiri-Durga)

6. Islamic invasion of India

"Islamic invasion of India: Encyclopedia II - Indo-Parthian Kingdom - Main Indo- Parthian rulers. 6th century BCE 5th century BCE 4th century BCE 3rd century ..."
www.experiencefestival.com/islamic_invasion_of_india/page/2 (http://www.experiencefestival.com/islamic_invasion_of_india/page/2)

7. Chapter 13 Abbasid Decline and the Spread of Islamic Civilization ...

"The Coming of Islam to South Asia. Muslim invasions from the 7th century ... rival dynasties after the 5th century fall of the Gupta until Harsha in the 7th ..."
occawlonline.pearsoned.com/bookbind/pubbooks/stearns_awl/medialib/IM/ch13.pdf

8. Revision:A Continuous History of the Empire of New Rome - The ...

"In the 5th 6th, 7th centuries, major cultural changes, no longercities on classical model, ... Islamic invasion saw continuation of existing trends. ... By the 7th century old style political elite almost vanished. ..."
www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Revision:A_Continuous_History_of_the_Empire_of_New _Rome (http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Revision:A_Continuous_History_of_the_Empire_of_New _Rome)

9. BBC World Service | The Story of Africa

"5th-7th Century - Scriptures translated into Ge'ez in Ethiopia ... 639 - Islam comes to North Africa, displacing Christianity on a large scale ... 639 - Muslim invasion of Egypt under Amr Ibn al-As challenging Roman Byzantine rule ..."
www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1624_story_of_africa/page96.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1624_story_of_africa/page96.shtml)

10. Islamic Danger in History: Lebanon, the Arab Invasion, and The ...

"4 Jan 2009 ... Lebanon, the Arab Invasion, and The Arrival of Islam .... From early in the 5th Century and throughout the 6th, through the works of the ... By the end of the 7th century the Arabs and the Persians, newcomers to an ..
http://islamicdangerhistory.blogspot...rrival-of.html (http://islamicdangerhistory.blogspot.com/2009/01/lebanon-arab-invasion-and-arrival-of.html)

11. Bambooweb: Middle ages

"The Islamic invasions of the 7th Century, conquering the southern and eastern ... Between the 5th and 8th centuries a completely new political and social ..."
www.bambooweb.com/articles/m/i/Middle_Ages.html (http://www.bambooweb.com/articles/m/i/Middle_Ages.html)

12. Afghanistan :: Historical beginnings (to the 7th century ad ...

"From the 5th through the 7th century many Chinese Buddhist pilgrims continued to travel through Afghanistan. The pilgrim Xüanzang wrote an important account ..."
www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/7798/Afghanistan/21381/Historical-beginnings-to-the-7th-century-ad (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/7798/Afghanistan/21381/Historical-beginnings-to-the-7th-century-ad)

13. ORB: The Online Reference Book for Medieval Studies

"Leo I, in the 5th century, and Gregory I, in the 6th century, .... two were the civil wars of the 3rd century, and the Islamic invasions of the 7th century. ..."
www.the-orb.net/textbooks/westciv/darkages.html (http://www.the-orb.net/textbooks/westciv/darkages.html)

14. On The Sources Of The Qur'anic Dhul-Qarnayn

"First Composed: 1st September 1999. Last Updated: 5th March 2006 .... The poem, however, was actually written in the seventh century, .... R. Morey, The Islamic Invasion: Confronting The World's Fastest Growing Religion, 1992, ..."
www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBhorned.html (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBhorned.html)

15. Anti Essays : Free Essays on The Berbers And Islam Essay

"24 Jan 2008 ... It wasn't until the 7th century with the Arab invasion that the Berbers ... in the 5th century. The Arabs invaded circa 685, bringing Islam. ..."
www.antiessays.com/free-essays/855.html (http://www.antiessays.com/free-essays/855.html)

16. Middle Ages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"18 Jul 2006 ... The Islamic invasions of the 7th and 8th centuries, which conquered ... Between the 5th and 8th centuries a completely new political and social ..... see the period to the rise of Islam (7th century) as "late Classical". ..."
scorpio.cs.usfca.edu/wiki/index.php/Middle_Ages

17. Egypt: Petra, Part I: The History and Relationship with Egypt

"It continued to decline with the Muslim invasion of the 7th century, though the new ... that the area of Petra had already seen a large conversion to Islam, ..."
www.touregypt.net/featurestories/petra1.htm (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/petra1.htm)

18. Coptic Church@Everything2.com

"24 Nov 2005 ... Thus it was that the Islamic invasions of the seventh century were met with ... Nine Syrian monks brought monasticism to Ethiopia in the 5th century. ... Since the 7th century the Coptic Church has been so isolated from ..."
everything2.com/title/Coptic%2520Church

19. Byzantine Empire - Crystalinks

"Throughout the 5th century various invasions conquered the western half of the empire, ..... and Anatolia after the Islamic invasions of the 7th century. ..."
www.crystalinks.com/byzantine.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/byzantine.html)

20. Islam, The Coming Of Islam To South Asia

"arrival of the Muslims in the last years of the 7th century A.D. ... In the years after the collapse of the Gupta Empire at the end of the 5th century ..... had survived as a popular religion until the era of the Muslim invasions, ..."
http://history-world.org/islam6.htm

[pinkfreud]

1. History Sindh, Invasions, Arab contact, trade, civilization, India ...

"2 May 2002 ... The claim that Sindh during the 7th century was reeling from the hegemony ... several 5th-7th C Gupta-period land decrees demonstrate that caste .... It was the cohesive force of Islam that enabled the Arabs to combine ..."
http://india_resource.tripod.com/sindh.html

2. History of the Southern Levant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Philistines (whose traces disappear before the 5th century BCE) are ..... to the Islamic Arab invasion of the Eastern Roman Empire in the 7th century. ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

3. History of Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Xuanzang reports in his travels across India during the 7th century of Buddhism ... By the end of the 12th century, following the Islamic conquest of the ... the White Hun invasion in the 5th century where under the King Mihirkula they ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Buddhism

4. Arabia - History. Pre-Islamic Arabia, to the 7th Century AD.

"Pre-Islamic Arabia, to the 7th Century. History of Arabia The history of Arabia and its inhabitants naturally divides itself into two distinct and even ..."
www.1902encyclopedia.com/A/ARA/arabia-40.html (http://www.1902encyclopedia.com/A/ARA/arabia-40.html)

5. Durga's origins :Shahi and Kashmiri Durga

"Facing to the islamic invasions, the evolution of Durga's image in the Turki ... 3rd century until the Hephthalit invasions at the end of the 5th century. ... because of the islamic invasions of the 7th century, Islam prohibiting the ..."
www.scribd.com/doc/11372340/Durgas-origins-Shahi-and-Kashmiri-Durga (http://www.scribd.com/doc/11372340/Durgas-origins-Shahi-and-Kashmiri-Durga)

6. Islamic invasion of India

"Islamic invasion of India: Encyclopedia II - Indo-Parthian Kingdom - Main Indo- Parthian rulers. 6th century BCE 5th century BCE 4th century BCE 3rd century ..."
www.experiencefestival.com/islamic_invasion_of_india/page/2 (http://www.experiencefestival.com/islamic_invasion_of_india/page/2)

7. Chapter 13 Abbasid Decline and the Spread of Islamic Civilization ...

"The Coming of Islam to South Asia. Muslim invasions from the 7th century ... rival dynasties after the 5th century fall of the Gupta until Harsha in the 7th ..."
occawlonline.pearsoned.com/bookbind/pubbooks/stearns_awl/medialib/IM/ch13.pdf

8. Revision:A Continuous History of the Empire of New Rome - The ...

"In the 5th 6th, 7th centuries, major cultural changes, no longercities on classical model, ... Islamic invasion saw continuation of existing trends. ... By the 7th century old style political elite almost vanished. ..."
www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Revision:A_Continuous_History_of_the_Empire_of_New _Rome (http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Revision:A_Continuous_History_of_the_Empire_of_New _Rome)

9. BBC World Service | The Story of Africa

"5th-7th Century - Scriptures translated into Ge'ez in Ethiopia ... 639 - Islam comes to North Africa, displacing Christianity on a large scale ... 639 - Muslim invasion of Egypt under Amr Ibn al-As challenging Roman Byzantine rule ..."
www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1624_story_of_africa/page96.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/specials/1624_story_of_africa/page96.shtml)

10. Islamic Danger in History: Lebanon, the Arab Invasion, and The ...

"4 Jan 2009 ... Lebanon, the Arab Invasion, and The Arrival of Islam .... From early in the 5th Century and throughout the 6th, through the works of the ... By the end of the 7th century the Arabs and the Persians, newcomers to an ..
http://islamicdangerhistory.blogspot...rrival-of.html (http://islamicdangerhistory.blogspot.com/2009/01/lebanon-arab-invasion-and-arrival-of.html)

11. Bambooweb: Middle ages

"The Islamic invasions of the 7th Century, conquering the southern and eastern ... Between the 5th and 8th centuries a completely new political and social ..."
www.bambooweb.com/articles/m/i/Middle_Ages.html (http://www.bambooweb.com/articles/m/i/Middle_Ages.html)

12. Afghanistan :: Historical beginnings (to the 7th century ad ...

"From the 5th through the 7th century many Chinese Buddhist pilgrims continued to travel through Afghanistan. The pilgrim Xüanzang wrote an important account ..."
www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/7798/Afghanistan/21381/Historical-beginnings-to-the-7th-century-ad (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/7798/Afghanistan/21381/Historical-beginnings-to-the-7th-century-ad)

13. ORB: The Online Reference Book for Medieval Studies

"Leo I, in the 5th century, and Gregory I, in the 6th century, .... two were the civil wars of the 3rd century, and the Islamic invasions of the 7th century. ..."
www.the-orb.net/textbooks/westciv/darkages.html (http://www.the-orb.net/textbooks/westciv/darkages.html)

14. On The Sources Of The Qur'anic Dhul-Qarnayn

"First Composed: 1st September 1999. Last Updated: 5th March 2006 .... The poem, however, was actually written in the seventh century, .... R. Morey, The Islamic Invasion: Confronting The World's Fastest Growing Religion, 1992, ..."
www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBhorned.html (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBhorned.html)

15. Anti Essays : Free Essays on The Berbers And Islam Essay

"24 Jan 2008 ... It wasn't until the 7th century with the Arab invasion that the Berbers ... in the 5th century. The Arabs invaded circa 685, bringing Islam. ..."
www.antiessays.com/free-essays/855.html (http://www.antiessays.com/free-essays/855.html)

16. Middle Ages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"18 Jul 2006 ... The Islamic invasions of the 7th and 8th centuries, which conquered ... Between the 5th and 8th centuries a completely new political and social ..... see the period to the rise of Islam (7th century) as "late Classical". ..."
scorpio.cs.usfca.edu/wiki/index.php/Middle_Ages

17. Egypt: Petra, Part I: The History and Relationship with Egypt

"It continued to decline with the Muslim invasion of the 7th century, though the new ... that the area of Petra had already seen a large conversion to Islam, ..."
www.touregypt.net/featurestories/petra1.htm (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/petra1.htm)

18. Coptic Church@Everything2.com

"24 Nov 2005 ... Thus it was that the Islamic invasions of the seventh century were met with ... Nine Syrian monks brought monasticism to Ethiopia in the 5th century. ... Since the 7th century the Coptic Church has been so isolated from ..."
everything2.com/title/Coptic%2520Church

19. Byzantine Empire - Crystalinks

"Throughout the 5th century various invasions conquered the western half of the empire, ..... and Anatolia after the Islamic invasions of the 7th century. ..."
www.crystalinks.com/byzantine.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/byzantine.html)

20. Islam, The Coming Of Islam To South Asia

"arrival of the Muslims in the last years of the 7th century A.D. ... In the years after the collapse of the Gupta Empire at the end of the 5th century ..... had survived as a popular religion until the era of the Muslim invasions, ..."
http://history-world.org/islam6.htm


what's your point honey?

far more countries and peoples have been looted in the name of christianity.

[anthony65]

Blame it all on whitey:rolleyes:

Not at all.

But Islamic Fundamentalism / terrorism was a creation of the west wasn't it?

[islamvslizards]

Do you think there is such a thing as 'progressive Islam'?

Related, do you think Islam can embrace, for example, feminists who desire to retain the roots of the faith (in one God) but cast off the outward forms of identification (like hijab)?

well, it depends on what you mean by "progressive". its a myth that islam is stuck in the middle ages in fixed, dogmatic rituals and refuse to move with the times. in fact muslim studies on things like the internet, evolution and even stem cell research are commonplace and much more liberal and progressive than people expect. a single example - did you know iran has the largest number of female nobel prize winners than any other country on earth?

when it comes to things like feminism, islam is already very woman-empowering. under the prophet women could run businesses, have independant incomes, and were given equal rights as men, not to mention protection under sharia law from harrassment and respect and dignity. they were not seen as eye-candy or used for casual sex, nor were they abused or allowed to be beaten.

many of the things modern feminists strive for, are already in place (as far as i can tell) in islam. equal rights, freedom from leering men, equal rights in the workplace, dignity, respect and so on.

if the wahabbis have distorted it to the point women cant even own DRIVERS LICENCES in saudi arabia, and this mentality has seeped into the mainstream sunni belief system, thats the fault of the wahabbis, not the prophet.

all you need to do is look at the life and lifestyle of the prophets own wife - hazrat khatija (sa), to see the sort of pro-feminist views islam had.

when it comes to outward forms of identification, its a grey area. in many areas of pakistan and south asia it isnt part of the culture for the women to cover their heads with a headscarf so they dont do this, but arent exactly persecuted. it comes down to the culture you live in.

the quran says "dress modestly and cover your breasts". some people equate that to the headscarf, others dont. you could probably find scholars on both sides of the argument.

[islamvslizards]

Ok so youve told me that you do think that mohammed is the perfect example of a human being.

So can I ask you if having someone murdered because you dont like what they have said about you is a good example of how to behave?

THE MURDER OF KAB BIN AL-ASHRAF

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/ashraf.htm

kab bin al ashraf did a bit more than just writing some insulting poetry man.

if you disagree with the prophet, but live in peace without stirring things up, thats one thing. encouraging or supporting the enemies of the prophet and getting them excited is quite another. read the hadith silas posted himself:

QUOTE FROM THE SIRAT RASULALLAH
""Is this true? Did Muhammad actually kill these whom these two men mention? These are the nobles of the Arabs and kingly men; by God, if Muhammad has slain these people it were better to be dead than alive." When the enemy of god became certain that the news was true he left the town and went to Mecca to stay with al-Muttalib who was married to Atika. She took him in and entertained him hospitably. He began to inveigh against the apostle and to recite verses in which he bewailed the Quraysh who were thrown into the pit after having been slain at Badr.

so silas admits that the guy wasnt just sitting in his bedroom writing poetry, he actively went and joined the ranks of the enemies of teh prophet, and used his poetry to wind them up against the prophet by mentioning what happened to their kinsmen at the battle of badr.

inciting people to kill the prophet is slightly more serious than writing poetry. he may not have held a sword, but he was AT LEAST an accomplice to attempted murder.

4) What does this say about the real character of Muhammad? How would such actions be judged in America today?

:eek:

lol

theres an ok-ish rebuttal of the article on this site (http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttal_to_silas_2.htm)if you want to read into it in more detail

[islamvslizards]

Mohammed the peado who married a 9 year old. He'd be killed for that here not made a Prophet! Child brides are still married Today with the blessings if Islam.

Isn't it about time you Muslims left your religion and joined the rest of the human race.

according to slighly more reliable non wahabbi funded scholars aisha was between 16 and 18ish when she married the prophet. the prophet did not marry her for personal lust or love but for another reason. if you have time, then:

watch this speech - "the mother of believers" by sayyed ammar nakshawani, it discusses her age and the prophets reasons for marrying her. its in english (the guys from the uk), just forward it about five minutes after prayers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-3xvJYcyms)

the prophet is not responsible for child brides or child abuse. the wahabbis are. they will never join the human race since they have a contempt and loathing for anyone who is not a wahabbi.

[eternal_spirit]

what's your point honey?

far more countries and peoples have been looted in the name of christianity.

I wouldn't be so ceratin of that, It's taken for granted by the majority who haven't done any research into Islamic invasions.
But sure both religions have done their fair share of invading etc.

Islam was never a religion of peace it was always war like, oppressive and a dangerous death cult since it began... so I don't buy it was corrupted and taken over by some nasty people. It was corrupt from the beginning.

Mohammed was nasty - fact. A good Muslim should try and be like Mohammed by following his examples.

And here are some of those examples of Islam in it's infancy
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...7&postcount=28 (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=787187&postcount=28)

and also
The Crusades were not the beginning of the fight between Islam and the West, they were a second, belated act, by a hitherto sleep-walking Christian world, after centuries of Muslim/Arab aggression, centuries of invasions, conquests, massacres, forced conversions, that reached all the way into the heart of western Europe. After the birth of Islam, in a small, obscure part of Arabia, in the 7th century, wave after wave of Muslim armies crashed into Christian and Jewish lands, conquered them, usurped them, colonized them, bled them. These armies carried Islam all the way to southern Spain, to Andalusia, and of course to countless, mainly Christian, lands along that bloody way. Conquered peoples were offered few choices - convert or accept the humiliating status of dhimmi. Over three centuries later, after this massive jihad had begun, the European Christians finally and belatedly made some sort of response - the Crusades - and attempted to seize back at least some of the areas lost to Christendom.


http://www.indonesiamatters.com/453/...liberal-islam/ (http://www.indonesiamatters.com/453/the-crusades-liberal-islam/)

Just one example of many articles and Islam has been doing the same invading it does Today as it has always done since it's conception/creation.

Shariah laws (Islamic society) or the freedom that the West. I choose the latter.

[eternal_spirit]

according to slighly more reliable non wahabbi funded scholars aisha was between 16 and 18ish when she married the prophet. the prophet did not marry her for personal lust or love but for another reason. if you have time, then:

watch this speech - "the mother of believers" by sayyed ammar nakshawani, it discusses her age and the prophets reasons for marrying her. its in english (the guys from the uk), just forward it about five minutes after prayers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-3xvJYcyms)

the prophet is not responsible for child brides or child abuse. the wahabbis are. they will never join the human race since they have a contempt and loathing for anyone who is not a wahabbi.
Of course Muslims will deny it like they deny everything else
I'll refer back to this link you didn't quote in my post. I also stated that not ALL Muslims condone marrying children

I've even posted sources from Muslim's own texts and words claiming this to be true (the majority agree she was aged 9) Here it is again Stating that Mohammed married a 9 year old and it's ok for Muslims to do the same.



http://web.archive.org/web/200502051...riage.html#age (http://web.archive.org/web/20050205151045/www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/fatawawom/marriage.html#age)

[islamvslizards]

If not read all of this thread, so I don't know if it's been covered already, but as you ask, I would like to know why most Muslims are so violently anti-gay. I was shocked recently when working with a group of Muslims of mixed nationality that they harbored such anger and aggression towards this group of people. I had not heard such ignorant views on the subject since the 1970s. They even told me a story about the Black Sea, turning to dead, salt water because of a community of gay people that were drowned in it! They told me that this is standard teaching at Koran school! Are all Muslims that gullible to such nonsense?


:eek::eek::eek:

lol the good old sunnis eh. be careful a fly doesnt drop into your drink ;)

theres a difference between "gay" and "transgender". islam is very supportive towards people who are genuinely transgender, and in fact in iran (even though it isnt a very nice place generally) they are allowed to go under sex realignment operations after a years hormone therapy.

as for being "gay" for social (not biological) reasons, yes thats seen as a sin. however it is not meant to be dragged out in the open - in the same way a husbands and wifes relations shouldnt be brought into the open.

added to this - ONLY a member of the ahlebeyt is allowed to "punish" someone for this. and since the final member of the ahlebeyt is in occultation, and will not return until the end times, and probably will have better things to do such as fighting the powers that be and ending opression......instead of killing all the worlds gays, rofl

it basically means islams stance is everyone should mind their own business lol. no one has any right to "punish" anyone for their sexual orientation, and gay people should have enough manners to keep things behind locked doors, in the same way a husband and wife do.


I truly believe that if the world is ever going to have true peace, then we all must accept each others differences. Unfortunately, most Muslims don't seem to want to do this, which is a great shame, as there will always be huge gulfs between people if we can not reconcile our differences. Your thoughts would be welcome.

Peace!

true. this is a result of the wahabbi death cults infiltration of the main belief sects within islam. they have done much damage both to islam and to the wider world. all we can do is some small good to each other, and show love between each other, and hope for the best. we arent like david icke that we can wake up the whole world, we all are just regular people. if we do the best we can to the people we meet, thats the best we can hope for.

[islamvslizards]

Why do Muslim men rape hundreds (possibly thousands) of white English school girls in the UK every year ?

Some as young as 11

Just in case you refute my assertion here are about 35 cases reported in local Newspapers in the last 4 days.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=850464&postcount=63

i think you need to ask them that. what does that have to do with their religion? do i ask why thousands of christian soldiers have killed tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of children in iraq and afghanistan?

[major seven]

Not at all.

But Islamic Fundamentalism / terrorism was a creation of the west wasn't it?

Hey Anthony
Just for the record, how exactly did the west create this fundamentalism/terror.
A search on the Wahabi's shows they developed completely on their own outside of western influence for 200 hundred years or so.
www.shaikhsiddiqui.com/wahabi.html
It wasn't until the early 1900's that the British had any significant influence and then of course the oil money didn't start flowing until the 1930's which as money usually does, corrupts anything and everything in sight.
The Saudi's being the wonderful Wahabis that they are have used this money for all sorts of intrigue all in the name of Allah, of course, such as to help fund the irradication of Israel off the face of the earth and bring down the evil decadent west and its wicked ways meanwhile pandering to the west's technology to keep their precious oil flowing because they themselves were never much good at anything except breeding camels and carving each other up at the drop of a hat, the phony hippocrites.
Meanwhile, before westerners showed up, the ultra conservative Wahabis were pitted against the way more moderate, in their view, sunni and shia factions because they were seen as way too liberal and they wanted to go back to the "pure" terachings of Mohammad and the Koran and Hadiths which meant a very literal take on everything.
Every religion has their ultra conservative factions which view themselfs as the "Only Way".
The Jews have their various sects of the Hassidicks, who don't like pretty much everybody, including your basic mainstream Zionist Jew, and then there are the Christians who have got, past and present, every sort of combination of ultra conservatives from the Puritans and the Shakers, to the Jehova Witnesses not to mention everything in between such as the Amish, Mennonites, Quakers and Oneness Pentacostals.
Unfortunately, the muslims have gotten themselves saddled with the Wahabis and the Taliban who use a literal translation of the Koran and Hadiths to fabricate all sorts of reasons for their actions.
Interestingly, the Jehova Witnesses have a plan of sorts for world domination too except that they ain't blowing up innocent people to make their point.
I'm sure the Mormons would like to see the whole world as they are too, but again, blowing up shit to make their point doesn't seem to be in their agenda either, yet both of them hate each others guts.
Religion! What would we do without it?
Get Along?
Yeah! That'll happen!

FM7

[thirdwave]

what's your point honey?

far more countries and peoples have been looted in the name of Christianity.

There are many on this forum that seem to believe that because in the West we live in a world where the Dogmas of religion no longer oppress us and our way of life (openly at least), that Christianity is some kind of guiding light, forgetting about all the bullshit the Western word has been dragged through by the religion to get to this point... to a point where its institutions do no longer manipulate and control us.

Its quite clear in many places around the world the religions are still very much holding that control over people...

every religion is the same... and none of them are the real solution to the world... to glorify one over another is the exact mentality the corrupt institutions target....

[islamvslizards]

Islam is written in a warring context,

the quran is not islam. and only certain parts of it are written in a "warring context", the bits that were revealed before or during one of the main battles in islamic history. the rest has nothing whatsoever to do with war. if you would have ever read the quran you would know this.


why, because thousands of years ago when the religion was formed the country was a warring country of tribes and so God has to meet a people where they are in consciousness otherwise the message would be rejected.

and you base this on.....what evidence exactly?

i suggest you look up "the year of treaties", "the treaty of hudaiybiya", "the event of brotherhood", "the event of mubahila", "the year of sorrow", "the boycott by the quraish" and "the prophet and the jewish woman". this will show you how warlike the religion was.


This is why its full of warring terminology. Like all religions there is not one thing that should be taken literally everything is symbolic and in reference to spirit.

:rolleyes: so when the quran describes how to divide a persons will to his relatives, or the rights of a widow, or etiquette of battle, or what is permissable to eat, and countless other examples, thats symbolic and not literal?

cummon man use your logic. thats nonsense what you just wrote lol.


Jihad is a holy war against your enemy's which are all in your consciousness,

that, my friend. is pure BNP propaganda grade A vintage BULLSHIT.

jihad means "struggle". making yourself a better human being is a jihad. helping your community is a jihad. maintaining your manners in the face of people passing personal opinions as fact is jihad. defending your homeland when invaded is jihad.

travelling to a foreign country and killing innocent people is murder.


those who interpret this to mean they need to kill all external threats have miss understood entirely and its not only tragic for them but also tragic for the religion.

right, and you understand fully?

[eternal_spirit]

Note all the rape victims where white English girls. These sicko men didn't make victims of Muslims or other girls right? Now where are the stories of white men raping Muslim and other girls? There must be some cases of this but I think they are a minority compared.

[thirdwave]

Note all the rape victims where white English girls. These sicko men didn't make victims of Muslims or other girls right? Now where are the stories of white men raping Muslim and other girls? There must be some cases of this but I think they are a minority compared.

what a shocking comment.

*well not that shocking*

[rewind_bo]

Note all the rape victims where white English girls. These sicko men didn't make victims of Muslims or other girls right? Now where are the stories of white men raping Muslim and other girls? There must be some cases of this but I think they are a minority compared.

depends where you look - im sure the occupants of iraq would disagree. - thats if they havent been shot in the back

[islamvslizards]

hey OP, nice of you to 'offer' yourself to answer some tough questions, i say ;)

hiya pinky (do you mind if i call you that?), how u doin? lovin the DP norma jean was one of the things that got me into "conspiracy" theories in the first place :)


considering the anti-muslim drivel that's been gaining ground here. i have many muslim friends, who are very liberal and they're just plain fucking amazing- but i don't know anything about the religion per se, so i'm hoping you could explain. i do have a 'problem' with some aspects of islam, but then again i have issues with most organised religions including my 'own'. :rolleyes:


sure thing, ill try my best to answer but im not the best authority on these things. you filthy infidel.


1. if you resonate with the idea of infinite consciousness, or the premise that submitting yourself to a higher god is actually giving yourself/your energies away (like icke says, all major religions are a form of mind control), then what would make islam different from any other religion?


wow. now thats one hell of a killer first question LOL.

the difference between islam and the other religions (as i see it), is the signs that show you what you stand to gain by your submission. for example the gnostic side is like meditation on steroids, when you can feel the benefits here and now in this life, your psycic abilities, remote viewing, even precognition can be developed, theres no secret societies that only teach the chosen few, anyone can pick up a book on irfan and get cracking. its not some "new age" mumbo jumbo either, its thousands of years old tried and tested techniques.

secondly there are signs in the quran, see what i said about the perfect mathematical code. again, this isnt secret knowledge, its all there for anyone to view and try out.

one thing i always think about is nassim haramein, and his double tetrahedron structure, and the 8 circle structure on the crop circles, u know his talk in rogue valley? i love the structures of the molecules he shows, can you see them here:

do a search for the "circle grid" (http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/publications/pdfs/islamic_geometric/islamic_art_and_geometric_design.pdf)

i love the fact that all the ancient religions and cultures, and even aliens with their crop circle messages, knew of this grid, this structure of creation. as far as i can see, there is only islam which has this structure anywhere as part of its religion.

if you go anywhere, to any place where there is a muslim community, you can see these beautiful calligraphy structures on all the buildings and artwork. muslims dont even bother forming humans or living things as part of their art culture, every single thing is based on the pattern of creation itself, as discovered by nassim haramein, as shown in crop circles, as shown in ancient civilisations. if art is holding a mirror to creation, then i can only see islam that uses that same structure as the mirror!


what advantage does submitting yourself to allah have over submitting yourself to say- jesus, abraham, vishnu or even buddha?


people like jesus and abraham and even budda (cant speak for vishnu im afraid :() were seen as links in a divine chain that started with adam. each came with bits and pieces of the same message, the same religion, each adding a bit here and there as they came. the benefits of following mohammed (as i understand) is that you are not following a prophet like jesus who came with part of the religion, you are following the completed and perfect religion, at the end of the chain. it seems to make more sense to me, to follow the completed product, not a composite part.



2. why don't women enjoy the 'freedoms' men do in most islamic nations? are secular islamic states like turkey and jordan considered 'unislamic' by countries like saudi arabia, where the laws don't even allow women to drive? and if, like you say, men and women are considered equal, is the clamping down on women's rights a deliberate move to tarnish the religion?


islam has been infiltrated by the powers that be. at the time of the prophet there was an utter retard who went by the name of "abu hurraira". this guy was only with the prophet for maybe 2 years, but somehow he has transmitted maybe 20 or 30 TIMES more hadiths of the prophets life, than people who spent their entire LIVES with the prophet. not to mention that he was caught during the caliphate of umar to be getting paid to make up false hadiths and pass them off as true. somehow his hadiths make up the bulk of the main sunni books like bukhari et al.

i believe that abu hurraira was one of the first infiltrators of islam.

now

fast forward to the time of this raving lunatic called "ibn taymiyya". who formed the beginnings of the wahabbi movement based almost soley on the work of abu hurraira.

now

fast forward to the late 1800s, saudi arabia. the bastard muhammed bin abdul wahhab uses the teachings of ibn taymiyya to form the wahabbi death cult, with the help of the british empire, and installs the current saudi "royal" family as heads of state, even tho islam does not recognise kings.

the wahabbi death cult is MASSIVELY funded by the saudis, and pushed by the US, toall places in the muslim world. it has infiltrated all sects in islam with its noxious beliefs, but sunnism by miles and miles.

it has been not so successful in infiltrating shia islam, which has resulted in horrific persecution and murder of shias which continues up to today.

the wahabbis are the cause of all this suffering for women.



related- why is polygamy permitted in islam, but polyandry shunned? this doesn't make sense if both sexes are equal.


depends on the culture you live in. in most places in the muslim world the culture is monogamous. however back in the day due to the short life expectancy and other issues there was a higher proportion of women to men, so polygamy was common.

polyandry is shunned because of the issues with determining who the father of a baby is since DNA tests are still uncommon in the muslim world.


3. could you please explain what's the main difference between the sunni and shiite muslims (other than the fact they worship different prophets), and why shiia islam is looked down upon, or sometimes considered unpure by followers of sunni islam?


lol how much time do you have?!?!?!

let me sum it up

sunnis believe that the prophet either forgot, or didnt think to leave clear instructions as to what the muslim world was meant to do after he died, nor appoint a successor. i.e. they believe that after the prophet we were on our own.

shias believe that the prophet WASNT an idiot, and he selected his cousin ali as his successor in front of 100,000 companions during his final pilgrimage at a place called ghadeer khum.

see here for more details of what happened at ghadeer khum (http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/)

shias and sunnis both believe in exactly the same prophets. both believe prophethood ended with the prophet, however shias believe that there was still guidance available to the world through the ahlebeyt, so stick to the ahlebeyt and not the man made caliphs of the sunnis.

all the other differences stem from this.

however, sunni islam did not form formally until about 300 - 400 years AFTER the prophet died, i.e. if the prophet was born in the 1600's then sunnism would only have started today. shias formed at ghadeer khum but there was originally only the "shia of ali" (modern shias) and "shia or muawiyyah" (modern day wahabbis). sunnism, although the biggest sect, was by far and away a later sect to show up.



4. what do you have to say about some people stating that islam is actually very deeply connected to freemasonry?


freemasonry - not at all.
knights templar - i believe the knights templar were shia, and their founder was in fact a sayyed. freemasonry stole a lot of the "symbolism" of the knights templar without actually understanding what it all meant.

eg the 14 pillars with 2 unique pillars represent the ahlebeyt - the 2 unique pillars represent the prophet and his daughter, and the 12 remaining identical pillars represent the 12 shia imams, but this is a tale for another thread lol.


thanks in advance.

thank YOu for asking :)

[islamvslizards]

Note all the rape victims where white English girls. These sicko men didn't make victims of Muslims or other girls right? Now where are the stories of white men raping Muslim and other girls? There must be some cases of this but I think they are a minority compared.

and that has what to do with the religion? please find me somewhere in the quran or hadith that instructs muslim men to go out and rape as many white non muslim young girls as possible.

thank you.

[eternal_spirit]

depends where you look - im sure the occupants of iraq would disagree. - thats if they havent been shot in the back

Try looking in England. Military is war and of course its sick, but we are talking about EDIT foreign civilians raping our children.

[eternal_spirit]

freemasonry - not at all.
knights templar - i believe the knights templar were shia, and their founder was in fact a sayyed. freemasonry stole a lot of the "symbolism" of the knights templar without actually understanding what it all meant.

Elijah Muhammad
Muhammad taught that the Asiatic Black man stripped the Caucasian of everything other than the original man's language, including their original garments; moreover, hoodwinked, cable-towed and gave him an apron to hide his shame and walked him 2200 miles across the hot Arabian Desert (this is perhaps consistent with ritual aspects of the Blue Lodge and definitely with the Shrine ritual). Muhammad said when the black man crosses the hot burning sands, he in essence lack knowledge of self and history. 26

Moreover, they are acting out the history of Caucasian people. Muhammad stated: "I will not go into the history of the Masons since I was a Mason myself once and I swore, too, not reveal the secrets. Masons who have reached such degrees as 32nd and 33,d are not called Masons. They are called Moslem Shriners. They are reaching up to us. When you take the 33rd degree you are taught to greet each other; 'As- Salaam Alaikum '. You are taught Islam from then on because you become a Muslim when that degree is conferred on you. At least you are supposed to be a believer in Islam. They teach you, almost from the start, to turn your face to the east." 27

AN ORIGINAL MAN

Claude Clegg a former Professor of History at North Carolina A&T State University in Greensboro, North Carolina, authored the book titled, "An Original Man: The Life and Times of Elijah Muhammad", which was considered the first scholarly biography on Elijah Muhammad. Clegg contacted me via telephone in 1995, he and I, had various conversations during this time period about the Nation of Islam during the research stage of this project. Clegg had received a copy of my book titled, In Defense of the Defender: The Most Honorable Elijah Muhammad, (published in1994) and he thought I would be a good resource to assist him with making contact with former followers of Elijah Muhammad prior to 1976. 28

Clegg's perspective on the Nation of Islam sums up their view of admitting the unorthodox correlation of Islam and Freemasonry but the Nation of Islam teaches that Islam offers a "superior" theology" and one could transition from a "pseudo Islamic" organization like Freemasonry (Shrine Masonry aka in Islam as Moslem Sons) into the "Supreme Wisdom" as taught by the Nation of Islam. Clegg stated:

"At least for some Masons, membership in the Nation of Islam represented a spiritual graduation to a new level of knowledge even more intriguing and coveted than the thirty-three degrees of Masonic secrets. The Muslims believe that their gnosis was superior to the knowledge of the Masons in philosophical breadth and practical utility. It was not so much that they felt that the Nation's theology was radically different from Masonic doctrines, though it was in many ways, but instead, that the beliefs of the Muslims were 'original' formulations from which Freemasonry flowed as a sort of doctrinal distributary. Both the Muslims and the Masons shared an affinity for mystical symbolism, biblical allegories, and numerology, but the former considered themselves superior custodians of arcane knowledge. Whatever their ultimate motives for becoming Muslims, Masons did number among the early converts of the Nation of Islam". 29

ISLAM'S KNOWLEDGE IS 360 DEGREES A COMPLETE CIRCLE

Islam claim to represent 360 degrees of knowledge, which is a complete circle and the Masons who reaches the apex of becoming a thirty-third degree only have attained partial knowledge. It is this so-called incompleteness of the acquisition of knowledge, which often draws the un-daunting criticism from Muslims. However, I do not think Masonry was intending for thirty-third degree to freeze or terminate its devotees ability to continue this infinite quest to study, research, analyze and to acquire wisdom, etc. Masonry is both a science and a social science and this journey (or traveling path) could lead you in various directions.

For example, Masonry can led you Madam H.P. Blavatsky who is a master in the field of Theosophy and authored two monumental works, The Secret Doctrine: The Synthesis of Religion and Philosophy and "Isis Unveiled" and you could spend a lifetime deciphering Manley P. Hall's book titled, "Secret Teachings of all Ages". Moreover, and never exhaust the boundless wisdom because the ancients intended for it to be never -ending and to suggest that our Masonic travel ends at the United Supreme Council, 33rd Ancient Accepted Scottish Rites of Freemasonry conferring the honorary 33rd degree in a formalized way, completes our knowledge goal is ludicrous. This false contention is arguably the fuel that breeds so many misconceptions between the two entities.

Elijah Muhammad stated" "Only in higher freemasonry is there a little teachings at the top, mostly of this particular order that mentions the teachings of Almighty God Allah, but ( you have to pay a lot of money to become a 33'rd degree Mason. .. A Mason cannot be a good Mason unless he knows the Holy Qur'an and follow its teachings ... " 30
The secret to Freemasonry, is that there is no secret, and anyone who is willing to take the time to investigate this subject could get a working knowledge of the order from the first degree (Entered Apprentice) to the thirty-third (Sovereign Grand Inspector General of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry) and/or the York Rite Side.

http://templedc.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7

Although this is from the NOI who call all white men devils and whites should be wiped from the face of the earth:rolleyes:

[islamvslizards]

^^ elijah mohammed isnt exactly the worlds most reliable source, nor does he speak for islam.

[lottie]

^^ elijah mohammed isnt exactly the worlds most reliable source, nor does he speak for islam.

OMG, Elijah Mohammed is by no means spokes person for the Islamic community, thats like saying Hitler spoke for the whole of Germany.... Elijah was part of the NOI which again is an institution corrupted again by higher ups and is not necessarily endorsed by the Muslim religion/community as a whole, just like many Jews in Israel dont agree with Zionism and the State of Israel.

[islamvslizards]

not to mention elijah mohammed saw himself as a reciever of revelation, i.e. a prophet after mohammed, and this is a belief which takes them technically out of the folds of islam anyway, so using him in your argument is further weakened

[eternal_spirit]

There was a 2 million man march in support of NOI in Washington USA in the 90s.
Some link Obamah and funding to NOI or at least his mentor (can't remember his name) who preaches in a Blacks only Christian Church.

The oil rich Saudis etc fix the price of oil and have made trillions$£.
If it's true about supressed alternative fuel/energy sources why does the west continue to be held to ransom for the price of oil!

I'm so tired of all the fighting. Jews and Muslims are of the same seed Abraham, why all the fighting, it's a bit like the Catholic and Protestant troubles in England Ireland that have gone on for centuries.

Seems that the whites are scapegoated and blamed for most problems, my goal is to prove that some of the Elite of ALL races and religons etc are the problem, in defense of my own people who will be blamed and killed.

We are all attacked, we get vaccinations (claimed to cause cancer) plus mercury and man made diseases. Cancer causing Chemicals in our food and water.

The poor Iraqus got bombed to death.

Some see nazis everywhere some see Jews everywhere.
There's disinfo from ALL sides scapegoating eachother.

[islamvslizards]

i think the best way to sum it up, is "there are three types of people in the world, cocks, assholes, and pussies......."

team america....where some see dumb comedy i see deep philosophy lol.

[anthony65]

Hey Anthony
Just for the record, how exactly did the west create this fundamentalism/terror.
A search on the Wahabi's shows they developed completely on their own outside of western influence for 200 hundred years or so.
www.shaikhsiddiqui.com/wahabi.html
It wasn't until the early 1900's that the British had any significant influence and then of course the oil money didn't start flowing until the 1930's which as money usually does, corrupts anything and everything in sight.
The Saudi's being the wonderful Wahabis that they are have used this money for all sorts of intrigue all in the name of Allah, of course, such as to help fund the irradication of Israel off the face of the earth and bring down the evil decadent west and its wicked ways meanwhile pandering to the west's technology to keep their precious oil flowing because they themselves were never much good at anything except breeding camels and carving each other up at the drop of a hat, the phony hippocrites.
Meanwhile, before westerners showed up, the ultra conservative Wahabis were pitted against the way more moderate, in their view, sunni and shia factions because they were seen as way too liberal and they wanted to go back to the "pure" terachings of Mohammad and the Koran and Hadiths which meant a very literal take on everything.
Every religion has their ultra conservative factions which view themselfs as the "Only Way".
The Jews have their various sects of the Hassidicks, who don't like pretty much everybody, including your basic mainstream Zionist Jew, and then there are the Christians who have got, past and present, every sort of combination of ultra conservatives from the Puritans and the Shakers, to the Jehova Witnesses not to mention everything in between such as the Amish, Mennonites, Quakers and Oneness Pentacostals.
Unfortunately, the muslims have gotten themselves saddled with the Wahabis and the Taliban who use a literal translation of the Koran and Hadiths to fabricate all sorts of reasons for their actions.
Interestingly, the Jehova Witnesses have a plan of sorts for world domination too except that they ain't blowing up innocent people to make their point.
I'm sure the Mormons would like to see the whole world as they are too, but again, blowing up shit to make their point doesn't seem to be in their agenda either, yet both of them hate each others guts.
Religion! What would we do without it?
Get Along?
Yeah! That'll happen!

FM7

"A search on the Wahabi's shows they developed completely on their own outside of western influence for 200 hundred years or so.
www.shaikhsiddiqui.com/wahabi.html
It wasn't until the early 1900's that the British had any significant influence and then of course the oil money didn't start flowing until the 1930's which as money usually does, corrupts anything and everything in sight."

So the British were already influencing them in the early 1900's?

About the time the Zionists were starting to firm up their ideas about a return to Palestine, which of course they couldn't have achieved without kicking the Ottoman Turks out of Palestine and even more critically without the support of the British Empire. I'll have to read up more on this, and the origins of the Saudi Royal family might prove interesting reading.

I was actually referring more to the involvement of the Americans / CIA in building up and supporting Islamic Fundamentalists in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets.

And just to clarify things for the black and white brigade, I am not here to say "Islam good West bad".

But it is clear to me that the further you get up the pyramid of power, the more the distinctions of race, religion, etc. actually get less important, because their "satanic" / "demonic" masters don't give a shit for any human life of any colour, race or religion.

[islamvslizards]

for an idea as to the rise of the wahabbis, take a look at the rise of the house of saud

[rewind_bo]

Try looking in England. Military is war and of course its sick, but we are talking about EDIT foreign civilians raping our children.

I'm sure more white males are out their raping english women than 'muslims'. just then when a so called muslim is accused of something their religious beliefs are brought into it and then the entire religion blamed (even though its going against everything their religion states)

[islamvslizards]

I'm sure more white males are out their raping english women than 'muslims'. just then when a so called muslim is accused of something their religious beliefs are brought into it and then the entire religion blamed (even though its going against everything their religion states)

exactly. rape is actually a capital offense (i.e. death sentence) according to muslim sharia under the prophet/ ahlebeyt. during the occultation of the final imam the punishment is by the laws of whatever country you are living in.

[peter griffin]

Why does the God of the Torah love the Jews and the God of the Koran hate the Jews?

Why does the 12th Imam Madi closely resemble the anti-christ of Christianity?


Why are Muslim countries still living in the stone age while Christian nations are the most technically advanced in the world?

[mephibosheth]

people like jesus and abraham and even budda (cant speak for vishnu im afraid :() were seen as links in a divine chain that started with adam.


Sorry, you can't link poor ol' Buddha with this Abrahamic lineage. No one has 'seen' Buddha as a link in a chain that goes back to Adam. Not to mention that Buddhist cosmology is completely different from Abrahamic cosmology. Or to point out the fact that Buddhism does not recognize any single Most High God running the show. In fact, the cosmology of Buddhism is closer to gnosticism, in the sense that it sees a demiurge-type being at the source of divinity for this universe. But that being itself is not the 'utlimate' source, as it is, like all other things, impermenant, even if extremely long-lasting, relative to other beings.



each came with bits and pieces of the same message, the same religion


Again, the essence of Buddhism could not be any more different from Islam. This isn't a matter of corruption either, its a matter of fundamental principles. Islam demands submission to One God, while such a concept is entirely foriegn to Buddhism. It isn't the 'same' message or the 'same' religion, and you have to distort it quite a bit to make it appear that way.



depends on the culture you live in. in most places in the muslim world the culture is monogamous. however back in the day due to the short life expectancy and other issues there was a higher proportion of women to men, so polygamy was common.

polyandry is shunned because of the issues with determining who the father of a baby is since DNA tests are still uncommon in the muslim world.


This always strikes me as a lame excuse.

For one thing, Islam is supposed to present the final way of life for human kind. But if we're worried about parentage, well, in our day and age we can determine this relatively easily, making this rule obsolete given this concern.

For another thing, even without this technology, God knows what the lineage is, if this possibly matters.

The question is, why should God or any of us actually care about lineage anyway? Linegae is the tool of the breeder, and is of special concern to the breeder who seeks to control the dynamic chaos of nature. God, being able to create ex nihlo, cannot be seen as a mere breeder. This type of thinking seems to point to an all-too mortal power structure--relevant to people that--for whatever reason--have a need to keep track of bloodlines.

Once you take away the concern about parentage, which we can settle with today's technology, what's left? Only an inequality between men and women, which certainly gives the appearance of the old patriarchal power-structure wherein women are the property of men.

what other possible reason could there be for allowing this one-way street?

[major seven]

anthony65;853431]"A search on the Wahabi's shows they developed completely on their own outside of western influence for 200 hundred years or so.
www.shaikhsiddiqui.com/wahabi.html
It wasn't until the early 1900's that the British had any significant influence and then of course the oil money didn't start flowing until the 1930's which as money usually does, corrupts anything and everything in sight."

So the British were already influencing them in the early 1900's?


FM7
I should have qualified that a bit better.
The British got saddled with Palestine and the French got Jordon after WW1 after the Turks left cuz they sided with the Germans.
I don't think the British had at this time much influence with the Saudi's/Wahabis, who by now were in power after their wars with the sunnis and shia factions.
I don't think the Brits had much time to get involved with Saudi politics as they had enough problems with Palestinians and Jews.
Palestinians were pissed off because the Jews were coming in droves to their "promised land" resulting in a whole lot of pissed off muslims and the obligatory rioting in the streets. See Palestinian riots in the 1920s to 1948.
When the Brits tried to put the breaks on the zionist invasion, the Jews managed to form their own version of terrorists blowing up British shit in an attempt to reverse their policies.
I don't think the Saudi's/wahabbis were doing much at this time except playing in their own sandbox and perfecting the finer points of how to subjugate the masses to their ultra conservative brand of Islam.

Anthony
I was actually referring more to the involvement of the Americans / CIA in building up and supporting Islamic Fundamentalists in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets.


FM7
I sort of figured that.
The good old CIA.
Ain't it great that we Americans have to pay the price for all the fuckups those idiots have caused since their inception.
Exploding cigars for Castro, Bay of Pigs, untold number of intrigues to thwart the Soviets anywhere like Vietnam and supporting the progenitors of the Taliban in their fight against the Soviets, not to mention Latin America, and now Iraq.
How can you not love the CIA?

Fact of the matter is, fundamentalism and terror didn't need any help from those clowns.
Its self perpetuating and rooted in religious/political bullshit.
Naturally, the CIA have figured out all sorts of ways to use them to their advantage though and I suspect will continue to do so.
God Bless the CIA

FM7

[who elsie]

:eek::eek::eek:

lol the good old sunnis eh. be careful a fly doesnt drop into your drink ;)

theres a difference between "gay" and "transgender". islam is very supportive towards people who are genuinely transgender, and in fact in iran (even though it isnt a very nice place generally) they are allowed to go under sex realignment operations after a years hormone therapy.

as for being "gay" for social (not biological) reasons, yes thats seen as a sin. however it is not meant to be dragged out in the open - in the same way a husbands and wifes relations shouldnt be brought into the open.

added to this - ONLY a member of the ahlebeyt is allowed to "punish" someone for this. and since the final member of the ahlebeyt is in occultation, and will not return until the end times, and probably will have better things to do such as fighting the powers that be and ending opression......instead of killing all the worlds gays, rofl

it basically means islams stance is everyone should mind their own business lol. no one has any right to "punish" anyone for their sexual orientation, and gay people should have enough manners to keep things behind locked doors, in the same way a husband and wife do.



true. this is a result of the wahabbi death cults infiltration of the main belief sects within islam. they have done much damage both to islam and to the wider world. all we can do is some small good to each other, and show love between each other, and hope for the best. we arent like david icke that we can wake up the whole world, we all are just regular people. if we do the best we can to the people we meet, thats the best we can hope for.

Thank you for taking the trouble to reply. You seem to have a much more balanced and humane view of the world than many of the Muslims I've met. This is good, but why are so many so ignorant, yet spend most of their free time absorbing things to do with the religion? Are they all being brainwashed by this 'wahabbi death cult' you speak of? If so, it's pretty widespread, because so many seem to possess the same views. It seems to me that the Islamic community need to take stock of it's problems and divisions and start a program of re-education on such issues as gay awareness etc. In fact the same process that people in the Uk underwent in the 70's & 80's, before the influx of immigration really took hold. It seems that much of that work has now been undone here, as people import their ignorant and prejudiced views from other countries.

[mightyoak]

WHY do billions off followers worship a pedophile, Mohammed did marry Aisha a vulnerable 6 year old, having restrained himself for 3 yrs. He had sex with her at the onset off puberty at 9 whilst he was in his mid 50s i believe.. ?

[them]

hello, and peace be on you all.

im a big time fan of david icke, and yep, im a muslim. and whats more i know enough to talk about islam and "conspiracy" theories and all kinds of funky stuff.

so if you have any questions, feel free, ill answer using as many "islamic" sources as i can, you would be suprised at how much you guys dont know.

I have read a great deal of this thread because I like it.

However, I don't care for religion in general, although some of the texts are beautiful crafted by superlative word smiths.

My questions are;

What do you know about Islam & conspiracy theories?

What do you consider the non Islamic view of Islam to be? In two parts - Other religions & non religious?

How is the message allowed to be perverted by those in command of the correct evaluation of the texts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWhmOwGqcMQ

http://images.contactmusic.com/images/reviews2/touchingthevoid.jpg

[pinkfreud]

hiya pinky (do you mind if i call you that?), how u doin? lovin the DP norma jean was one of the things that got me into "conspiracy" theories in the first place :)

lol i don't mind, you can call me anything you want :)

i always had a soft spot for marilyn/norma, her being a mind controlled slave and all that... may her soul rest in peace.



you filthy infidel.

:D



the difference between islam and the other religions (as i see it), is the signs that show you what you stand to gain by your submission. for example the gnostic side is like meditation on steroids, when you can feel the benefits here and now in this life, your psycic abilities, remote viewing, even precognition can be developed, theres no secret societies that only teach the chosen few, anyone can pick up a book on irfan and get cracking. its not some "new age" mumbo jumbo either, its thousands of years old tried and tested techniques.

secondly there are signs in the quran, see what i said about the perfect mathematical code. again, this isnt secret knowledge, its all there for anyone to view and try out.

that's very interesting- see, the thing is i've never even heard a muslim talk about 'ancient wisdom' within the islamic texts; i was of the perception that the religious texts teach total submission only. it would be nice if you could elaborate on these.

even the followers of islam on these forums have not really brought up this 'mathematical code' within the quran and other holy books, it's sad but i guess even followers are not all aware of the true knowledge within; so i eagerly await your response on this subject.



one thing i always think about is nassim haramein, and his double tetrahedron structure, and the 8 circle structure on the crop circles, u know his talk in rogue valley? i love the structures of the molecules he shows, can you see them here:

do a search for the "circle grid" (http://www.metmuseum.org/explore/publications/pdfs/islamic_geometric/islamic_art_and_geometric_design.pdf)

i love the fact that all the ancient religions and cultures, and even aliens with their crop circle messages, knew of this grid, this structure of creation. as far as i can see, there is only islam which has this structure anywhere as part of its religion.

nassim is one fantastic guy. i have read through the nassim thread, though i haven't seen all his videos.

BUT the thing is, vs. (sorry i dunno what to call you, lol) islam is not the only religion which talks about this esoteric knowledge. buddhism and hinduism are two main religions which are based on this way of life; the fucked up thing is that both started out as channels to disseminate information, but were contorted and made to suit the needs of the selfish few- that's how they became religions (though of the two, i'd say buddhism is far less twisted; both however, contain amazing pearls of wisdom.)

they date far back before islam was even conceived as a positive way of life. so you can't really say islam is the only religion which incorporates these spell binding teachings.




if you go anywhere, to any place where there is a muslim community, you can see these beautiful calligraphy structures on all the buildings and artwork. muslims dont even bother forming humans or living things as part of their art culture, every single thing is based on the pattern of creation itself, as discovered by nassim haramein, as shown in crop circles, as shown in ancient civilisations. if art is holding a mirror to creation, then i can only see islam that uses that same structure as the mirror!

i absolutely agree :) some of the most beautiful architectural wonders of the world have been set up during 'islamic' rule- such as the taj mahal (such a magnificient monument, it never fails to take my breath away). the detailing, and the precision which went into making such buildings are really something to rave about.



people like jesus and abraham and even budda (cant speak for vishnu im afraid :() were seen as links in a divine chain that started with adam. each came with bits and pieces of the same message, the same religion, each adding a bit here and there as they came. the benefits of following mohammed (as i understand) is that you are not following a prophet like jesus who came with part of the religion, you are following the completed and perfect religion, at the end of the chain. it seems to make more sense to me, to follow the completed product, not a composite part.

i have to disagree with you there buddy.

if anything, islam is more abrahamic than the 'far east' religions. do remember that judaism, christianity and islam emerged from the same geographical point.

buddhism is not connected to adam at all. buddha (formerly siddhartha from the indo-nepal kingdom he was successor to) was born a hindu, and later went on to his path of salvation by way of non-violence, compassion, teaching others about karma and nirvana and thus seeking enlightenment- after he realised that hinduism was becoming extremely corrupt too (caste system, idol worship etc etc). his teachings are as abrahamic as i am blonde, lol :D

perhaps you should read up on the origins of buddhism; i'm not saying that in a bad way- it's just that religion sometimes teaches you things that aren't true. while your choice to be a muslim is yours, and yours only- i don't acknowledge or like the fact that many followers tend to look down upon other ways of life.




islam has been infiltrated by the powers that be. at the time of the prophet there was an utter retard who went by the name of "abu hurraira". this guy was only with the prophet for maybe 2 years, but somehow he has transmitted maybe 20 or 30 TIMES more hadiths of the prophets life, than people who spent their entire LIVES with the prophet. not to mention that he was caught during the caliphate of umar to be getting paid to make up false hadiths and pass them off as true. somehow his hadiths make up the bulk of the main sunni books like bukhari et al.

i believe that abu hurraira was one of the first infiltrators of islam.

now

fast forward to the time of this raving lunatic called "ibn taymiyya". who formed the beginnings of the wahabbi movement based almost soley on the work of abu hurraira.

now

fast forward to the late 1800s, saudi arabia. the bastard muhammed bin abdul wahhab uses the teachings of ibn taymiyya to form the wahabbi death cult, with the help of the british empire, and installs the current saudi "royal" family as heads of state, even tho islam does not recognise kings.

the wahabbi death cult is MASSIVELY funded by the saudis, and pushed by the US, to all places in the muslim world. it has infiltrated all sects in islam with its noxious beliefs, but sunnism by miles and miles.

it has been not so successful in infiltrating shia islam, which has resulted in horrific persecution and murder of shias which continues up to today.

the wahabbis are the cause of all this suffering for women.

thanks. i was never aware of that. interesting stuff.

however, i highlighted your first sentence because- though you do know it has been infiltrated by you-know-who, why would you still choose to submit to a god that in all possibility, is a creation of the illuminati- just like all others?

can anybody validate the authenticity of the quran? i mean, how do you know that it was not written by the very same folks who tarnished the true nature of islam, just like it has been in christianity, hinduism and so forth?




depends on the culture you live in. in most places in the muslim world the culture is monogamous. however back in the day due to the short life expectancy and other issues there was a higher proportion of women to men, so polygamy was common.

polyandry is shunned because of the issues with determining who the father of a baby is since DNA tests are still uncommon in the muslim world.

well then, how about the present day? :p shouldn't polygamy be made illegal considering this is the 21st century?




sunnis believe that the prophet either forgot, or didnt think to leave clear instructions as to what the muslim world was meant to do after he died, nor appoint a successor. i.e. they believe that after the prophet we were on our own.

shias believe that the prophet WASNT an idiot, and he selected his cousin ali as his successor in front of 100,000 companions during his final pilgrimage at a place called ghadeer khum.

see here for more details of what happened at ghadeer khum (http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/)

shias and sunnis both believe in exactly the same prophets. both believe prophethood ended with the prophet, however shias believe that there was still guidance available to the world through the ahlebeyt, so stick to the ahlebeyt and not the man made caliphs of the sunnis.

all the other differences stem from this.

however, sunni islam did not form formally until about 300 - 400 years AFTER the prophet died, i.e. if the prophet was born in the 1600's then sunnism would only have started today. shias formed at ghadeer khum but there was originally only the "shia of ali" (modern shias) and "shia or muawiyyah" (modern day wahabbis). sunnism, although the biggest sect, was by far and away a later sect to show up.


...then by definition, shiia islam is older than the sunni sect, am i right?

why then, is it still looked down upon? for instance, the shiia sect does pay great importance to music (sufi music for instance- which i find extremely beautiful and healing), and the sunnis don't; wahabbis actually deem music as 'evil'.

but then, since you've explained that bit- wahabbism is the corrupt form of islam.




freemasonry - not at all.
knights templar - i believe the knights templar were shia, and their founder was in fact a sayyed. freemasonry stole a lot of the "symbolism" of the knights templar without actually understanding what it all meant.

eg the 14 pillars with 2 unique pillars represent the ahlebeyt - the 2 unique pillars represent the prophet and his daughter, and the 12 remaining identical pillars represent the 12 shia imams, but this is a tale for another thread lol.

...eye opening. if you do start a thread on this i'd love to see it.







thank YOu for asking :)


and thank YOU for being so patient :p















edit:

Why are Muslim countries still living in the stone age while Christian nations are the most technically advanced in the world?



hahahahahahahahahaha.


nuff said.

[pinkfreud]

I wouldn't be so ceratin of that, It's taken for granted by the majority who haven't done any research into Islamic invasions.
But sure both religions have done their fair share of invading etc.

Islam was never a religion of peace it was always war like, oppressive and a dangerous death cult since it began... so I don't buy it was corrupted and taken over by some nasty people. It was corrupt from the beginning.

Mohammed was nasty - fact. A good Muslim should try and be like Mohammed by following his examples.

And here are some of those examples of Islam in it's infancy
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...7&postcount=28 (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=787187&postcount=28)

and also
The Crusades were not the beginning of the fight between Islam and the West, they were a second, belated act, by a hitherto sleep-walking Christian world, after centuries of Muslim/Arab aggression, centuries of invasions, conquests, massacres, forced conversions, that reached all the way into the heart of western Europe. After the birth of Islam, in a small, obscure part of Arabia, in the 7th century, wave after wave of Muslim armies crashed into Christian and Jewish lands, conquered them, usurped them, colonized them, bled them. These armies carried Islam all the way to southern Spain, to Andalusia, and of course to countless, mainly Christian, lands along that bloody way. Conquered peoples were offered few choices - convert or accept the humiliating status of dhimmi. Over three centuries later, after this massive jihad had begun, the European Christians finally and belatedly made some sort of response - the Crusades - and attempted to seize back at least some of the areas lost to Christendom.


http://www.indonesiamatters.com/453/...liberal-islam/ (http://www.indonesiamatters.com/453/the-crusades-liberal-islam/)

Just one example of many articles and Islam has been doing the same invading it does Today as it has always done since it's conception/creation.

Shariah laws (Islamic society) or the freedom that the West. I choose the latter.


eternal, i understand where you're coming from- then again, sometimes i don't.

you conveniently overlook the fact that though islam has played its role in usurping local religion and faith, christianity has played a far bigger role in terms of invasions, forced conversions and elimination of esoteric knowledge + native cultures.

think the americas. australasia. asia. africa. europe.

which is the world's dominant religion? and yes, islam is the fastest growing- but if you cared to use your discretion and realise that there are enlightened muslims who don't even resonate or conform to some quran teachings, you'd know that all muslims aren't as twisted. the magnitude of oppression by the so called followers of christ is beyond me; jesus would have been tossing and turning in his grave if he knew what was happening to humanity in his good name.

christianity has also subjugated women in the middle ages; please do not forget that- as has hinduism. and though i don't see islam as being any better, i definitely know that no one religion is 'the best'.

it's all the same source, eventually.

please keep in mind that islam is not the only villain; imo, all religions are fucked. but if people choose to follow it and use it for their own spiritual path, who are we to criticise them over and over?





There are many on this forum that seem to believe that because in the West we live in a world where the Dogmas of religion no longer oppress us and our way of life (openly at least), that Christianity is some kind of guiding light, forgetting about all the bullshit the Western word has been dragged through by the religion to get to this point... to a point where its institutions do no longer manipulate and control us.

Its quite clear in many places around the world the religions are still very much holding that control over people...

every religion is the same... and none of them are the real solution to the world... to glorify one over another is the exact mentality the corrupt institutions target....


absolutely... +1.

[zarah]

WHY do billions off followers worship a pedophile, Mohammed did marry Aisha a vulnerable 6 year old, having restrained himself for 3 yrs. He had sex with her at the onset off puberty at 9 whilst he was in his mid 50s i believe.. ?

From the message at the bottom of your post, I see that you revel in your ignorance. I really would suggest doing some basic reading on Islam, though. If you don't you'll continue making an arse of yourself.

[major seven]

Pink says!
"all religions are fucked"

FM7
:D :)

[anthony65]

anthony65;853431]"A search on the Wahabi's shows they developed completely on their own outside of western influence for 200 hundred years or so.
www.shaikhsiddiqui.com/wahabi.html
It wasn't until the early 1900's that the British had any significant influence and then of course the oil money didn't start flowing until the 1930's which as money usually does, corrupts anything and everything in sight."

So the British were already influencing them in the early 1900's?


FM7
I should have qualified that a bit better.
The British got saddled with Palestine and the French got Jordon after WW1 after the Turks left cuz they sided with the Germans.
I don't think the British had at this time much influence with the Saudi's/Wahabis, who by now were in power after their wars with the sunnis and shia factions.
I don't think the Brits had much time to get involved with Saudi politics as they had enough problems with Palestinians and Jews.
Palestinians were pissed off because the Jews were coming in droves to their "promised land" resulting in a whole lot of pissed off muslims and the obligatory rioting in the streets. See Palestinian riots in the 1920s to 1948.
When the Brits tried to put the breaks on the zionist invasion, the Jews managed to form their own version of terrorists blowing up British shit in an attempt to reverse their policies.
I don't think the Saudi's/wahabbis were doing much at this time except playing in their own sandbox and perfecting the finer points of how to subjugate the masses to their ultra conservative brand of Islam.




The British involvement with the Rothschild inspired Zionist movement goes back into the 19th Century.

You wrote...

The British got saddled with Palestine and the French got Jordon after WW1 after the Turks left cuz they sided with the Germans.

:D That's funny!

You really believe it was that simple... :eek:

[mightyoak]

From the message at the bottom of your post, I see that you revel in your ignorance. I really would suggest doing some basic reading on Islam, though. If you don't you'll continue making an arse of yourself.


Your reply is Not really answering the question tho is it.

My ignorance as you call it is based upon Well documeted facts about the prophets wives. Aisha aged 6 being the last off course.

So if you are not going to answer my original question Plz keep your personel attacks off the board Especially as they could be classed as childish

[major seven]

anthony65;855158]The British involvement with the Rothschild inspired Zionist movement goes back into the 19th Century.

You wrote...

The British got saddled with Palestine and the French got Jordon after WW1 after the Turks left cuz they sided with the Germans.


Anthony says
:D That's funny!


FM7
Ya Think? I thought it was pretty hilarious myself.
Gives new meaning to the saying,
"Don't look a gift horse in the mouth as you might get bit."


Anthony says
You really believe it was that simple... :eek


FM7
Of course it was that simple. Everything in the middle east is nothing but simple.
www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm

www.mideastweb.org/us_supportforstate.htm

Want to make any bets that the Brits were NOT glad to get the hell out of Dodge when Israel was made a state in 1948?

[anthony65]

anthony65;855158]The British involvement with the Rothschild inspired Zionist movement goes back into the 19th Century.

You wrote...

The British got saddled with Palestine and the French got Jordon after WW1 after the Turks left cuz they sided with the Germans.


Anthony says
:D That's funny!


FM7
Ya Think? I thought it was pretty hilarious myself.
Gives new meaning to the saying,
"Don't look a gift horse in the mouth as you might get bit."


Anthony says
You really believe it was that simple... :eek


FM7
Of course it was that simple. Everything in the middle east is nothing but simple.
www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm

www.mideastweb.org/us_supportforstate.htm

Want to make any bets that the Brits were NOT glad to get the hell out of Dodge when Israel was made a state in 1948?

I just remembered that this thread is about Islam...

I'll leave it here, but I wanted to clarify that British and Zionist intrigues led to the hell that we now see in Palestine...

"The British got saddled with Palestine and the French got Jordon after WW1 after the Turks left cuz they sided with the Germans"

That reads like the answer in a history GCSE exam... :D

There is an "official" dumbed down history and then there are numerous layers of alternative history...

British Zionism has sadly been a driving force in British politics for centuries.

And not just from Jews!

The "Christian" Zionists / Armageddonists who want to speed up the return of Christ... :eek:

And the Rothschilds who wanted to buy up Palestine and build their temple...

The Zionists who were ready to "sacrifice" Eastern European Jews to get a Jewish State in Palestine...

** Sorry if I sounded sarky, but yesterday and today I was shocked by these little potted accounts of history that sound as if they've come straight from the wikipedia editing community...

Shocked is the word...

I can't believe that anyone on this forum believes that history was that simple....

For a Jewish perspective on Zionism, try...

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.cfm

There are some very powerful accusations here against Zionism and their role in the Holocaust.

Somewhere out there is the truth...

and it ain't on wiki... :rolleyes:

[islamvslizards]

Why does the God of the Torah love the Jews and the God of the Koran hate the Jews?


thats not strictly true boss. the quran was revealed in stages, and the jews that it mentions as bad were particular groups, not the entire jewish nation. the quran says:

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

[3.23] Have you not considered those (Jews) who are given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah that it might decide between them, then a part of them turn back and they withdraw.

[5.44] Surely We revealed the Taurat (the torah) in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

[5.69] Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

dont forget, the fourth caliph ali was actually EMPLOYED by a jewish man, he used to earn his living in a date orchard picking dates, so how could muslims have hated jews if the muslim leaders were fine with being EMPLOYED by jews?



Why does the 12th Imam Madi closely resemble the anti-christ of Christianity?


er....in what way? :rolleyes: in islam the belief that jesus will return for the final battle is the same as that in christianity



Why are Muslim countries still living in the stone age while Christian nations are the most technically advanced in the world?

wow that was a really ignorant thing to say lol

look at this for a start (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world)

pay attention to Literature, Philosophy, Sciences, Technology, and economy and trade. we will go from there.

[mightyoak]

Any answers forthcoming on post #232 IslamvLizards ?

[mephibosheth]

which is the world's dominant religion? and yes, islam is the fastest growing-

There's no evidence of this, except 30 year old statistics. The increased 'growth' is due to population growth in Muslim countries, not conversion. In other words, its a growth of 'Muslim citizens', not Muslim practioners. Its like if the USA had a huge growth spurt we might say 'Christianity is growing' when in fact very few people are actual religious Christians (and not merely Christian by 'birth').

There is no dominant world religion, unless the NWO has its way and puts its satanic kabbalism to the forefront. There are only places in the world where religions are most active. In China you'll see a lot of Buddhism, in Malaysia, a lot of Islam, in Brazil, a lot of Catholics.

In all cases, its best for religion to stay out of politics. 'Dominance' and 'religion' have a very terrible and bloody history together.

8)

[unbornawakened]

Islamic 'fundamentalism' and/or 'extremism' was not created by the West - the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt was created in the 19th century, possibly to challenge Western influence (I am not sure) - but the 'West' either directly or indirectly promoted it and threw lots of fuel on its fire:

1- DIRECTLY: to fight the Soviets (fight communism by branding them as 'evil' atheists bent on the destruction of religious faith) - and this was put to good use in Afghanistan, with lots of money and men from Saudi Arabia (many Wahhabis); this created a huge army of thugs, one of them called Bin Laden, who then turned their guns against America to avenge the puppet-hood of their state (with their corrupt royal family strongly supported by the US ruling elites)

2- INDIRECTLY: by supporting tyrants, many of whom were covertly placed in power by the CIA, who suppressed people's aspirations and zealously promoted all kinds of Westernization that destabilized traditional society; a case in point is Iran, which had a functioning democracy from roughly 1942-1953, but the CIA restored a puppet dictatorship in 1953 which promoted fast and superficial Westernization (without regard for the sensitivities of the average people) and crushed all opposition parties - in the end, only the Shiite clergy was left to challenge the Shah, and they were able to mobilize people on masse (Shiite clergy was independent of government in Iran - Sunni clergy are generally subservient to government, as in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, since that is where their paycheque comes from)

In short, the Cold War and Imperialistic policies of the superpowers threw a huge amount of fuel on a small 'fundamentalist' fire which has become huge and has even engulfed their own societies. they were happy to burn Afghanistan and Iran, but now they are getting a taste of their own medicine, and still take no responsibility for their past actions (or very few people do).

But Islamic Fundamentalism / terrorism was a creation of the west wasn't it?

[islamvslizards]

Sorry, you can't link poor ol' Buddha with this Abrahamic lineage. No one has 'seen' Buddha as a link in a chain that goes back to Adam. Not to mention that Buddhist cosmology is completely different from Abrahamic cosmology. Or to point out the fact that Buddhism does not recognize any single Most High God running the show. In fact, the cosmology of Buddhism is closer to gnosticism, in the sense that it sees a demiurge-type being at the source of divinity for this universe. But that being itself is not the 'utlimate' source, as it is, like all other things, impermenant, even if extremely long-lasting, relative to other beings.


you could well be right. i remember reading in passing ages ago two theories by scholars, one on guru nannak being a sufi muslim, and two on bhudda being a monotheist (not muslim). they were interesting but not exactly fundamental cores to the muslim belief.

however islam DOES recognise gnostics, its called "irfan". a lot of what bhudda taught ties in quite closely to the theory of wahdatul wujud, which is why muslims began making links.

just out of interest tho, dont bhuddists worship bhudda as a god? i saw the film ong bak the thais definately seemed to be worshipping the idols representing bhudda?


This always strikes me as a lame excuse.

For one thing, Islam is supposed to present the final way of life for human kind. But if we're worried about parentage, well, in our day and age we can determine this relatively easily, making this rule obsolete given this concern.

For another thing, even without this technology, God knows what the lineage is, if this possibly matters.


polygamy isnt mandatory. islam doesnt demand us to "GO FORTH AND POLYGAMISE". however if you want to, if you live in a culture in which it is normal, islam provides rules and obligations and limitations for the people to follow.

parentage is important for a man to know (obviously god knows) as a mans has unescapable duties towards his children. with polygamy the chances of becoming a cuckold are obviously much lower than polandry. on top of that a woman is still able to lie, even with a DNA test since its confidential info in many parts of the world innit?


The question is, why should God or any of us actually care about lineage anyway? Linegae is the tool of the breeder, and is of special concern to the breeder who seeks to control the dynamic chaos of nature. God, being able to create ex nihlo, cannot be seen as a mere breeder. This type of thinking seems to point to an all-too mortal power structure--relevant to people that--for whatever reason--have a need to keep track of bloodlines.


children have rights over their parents. it is VITAL for a man to know who his children are and vice versa when it comes to things like inheritance and rights and duties and stuff.


Once you take away the concern about parentage, which we can settle with today's technology, what's left? Only an inequality between men and women, which certainly gives the appearance of the old patriarchal power-structure wherein women are the property of men.

what other possible reason could there be for allowing this one-way street?

would you mind sharing your wife with other men?

[gracimusic]

Don't you realise that is all a lie? it all goes far beyond what it appears to be. Jinns, devils, rules, heaven, paradise... all inventions for us, humans. And we believe those things as real, literally as the word mentions. I believe it's not like that. It all has a deeper meaning which we will never understand, regardless of how many explanations you may give them.

Why everybody tries to separate from each other?
Why do we fight our opposite with alternative arguments?
Why do we create discussion and arguments?
This is the beginning of the war.

Why do we think we are right?

WE ARE NOT!!! We don't know anything... but deep inside we know it all. In some people is awaken in others is asleep.

WE ARE THE SIMPLEST AND THE GREATEST OF ALL THINGS CREATED!!!
LET'S ENJOY IT!!!
LET'S NOT FIGHT!!!

[saaduh64]

Why everybody tries to separate from each other?
Why do we fight our opposite with alternative arguments?
Why do we create discussion and arguments?
This is the beginning of the war.

Why do we think we are right?

WE ARE NOT!!! We don't know anything... but deep inside we know it all. In some people is awaken in others is asleep.

WE ARE THE SIMPLEST AND THE GREATEST OF ALL THINGS CREATED!!!
LET'S ENJOY IT!!!
LET'S NOT FIGHT!!!


dude, please allow me to correct you but no one tries to seperate themselves from others, its just that everybody IS seperate from others. it is a part of human psychee to seek for loneliness time after time.
besides we are, all of uss very astounding specimens of philosophical aptitude, and not always one aptitude will click from the other, even a marreid couple has a row sometimes.
and as for fighting our opposites, its the way we evolve. our own opposite can be such a fun opponent that one just cant help stop questioning himself. and as for arguments, we all are here for the same reason, to make arguements and just like the male ants in the rain, we fly and fly as near to the burning candle as we can, end result? either we get burned, our philosophies our thoughts burned, we convert or else we get what we wanted and return home exalted, our souls tempered in the heat. its not fighting its just sort of an educational arguement.

dont take this argument as fighting, we are all just kids by heart, squabbling one munite and friendly the moment we all get what we want.
at least thats the way with me.

[saaduh64]

as an urdu poet goes...(honestly cant remember who it was)

[saaduh64]

as an urdu poet goes...(honestly cant remember who it was)

jhapatna, palatna, palat kay jhapatna
lahoo garm rakhnay ka hai aik bahana

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