ISLAM - ask your questions

[thirdwave]

riiiiiiiight. so these sources (quran, hadith) are ok for you to use when you want to try and make islam out to be bad, but when i use the same sets of books to refute your claims,

Christians here also say this smiler thing, which Makes me scratch me head..

either way, the contradictions in the books and the fact that they cant be taken as gospel are shown... if the books have become corrupt then none of us know what they were before.... the job would have been already done, the message poisoned.

[islamvslizards]

The point you are repeatedly making Does NOT wash tho I see things from a different perspective to yourself I as you are aware I am infidel (unbeliever) The accounts you have given to me Are slightly baised They are from Muslims Who revere there Prophet As Any other religious Zelot would. That does not however make it Correct Does it ? Example this would be the statement made by yourself earlier in the thread ""We believe in Jesus, but a different version to the one from the Christain bible "" How absurd and OFFENSIVE to Christains is that little gem.


my issue isnt the difference in your opinions to mine. it is your incredible ability to use completely unreferenced articles and assume that they are somehow just as worthy as anything else.

if you brought decent, reasoned arguments from any non muslim scholar, who provided evidence for his stance, we could have a much more worthwhile discussion. instead you choose statements from i dont even know where, and somehow reason that that is a convincing rebuttal.

its like writing an article for a science journal being peer reviewed. you cant just start cutting and pasting from random places and not referencing anything. why do you think it should work here?

lol @ christians find offensive. offended at what?



I too Would like yourself to initiate an unbiased view And seek the Truth that others freely find agreable That being in this case . That your the prophet did himself break the treaty off hudaiybiya BY breaking the promise he made regarding Umm Kulthum . I will post again for your perusal


i would really suggest you take your own advice here. ive had a scan through all my posts and im pretty sure whenever ive made a claim or statement, ive always tried to back it up with as wide a range of sources as possible. you cannot claim this.

as for the issue of umme kulthum, i suggest you take a look at, firstly, if she was the first woman to fall into this category, and when exactly she came to the prophet ;) we will go from there



REFERENCES

Seek n thee shall find ...................:D


thats your excuse for not providing any references whatsoever...ever?



:eek:No not really Just bored off TEXT BOOK answers


mmhmm :rolleyes:



What are they out off context or somfink :confused:


my point exactly


Another Q btw

Can you let me kno How many times the word Love is used in the Quran ?

how am i meant to find that out? do you know how many words in arabic there are for "love"? english is much simpler than arabic, it doesnt even come close when it comes to the extra vocabulary lol.

which type of "love" do you mean? cos the different types have different words. if you tell me that i can make a stab

[islamvslizards]

Not only am I of the opinion as you Rossus, but there is a salient point here as to how Islam as a mindset applies to International Relations in general.

After signing the Oslo Accords in 1993, Yasser Arafat went to speak in a mosque in South Africa and was caught on record making a speech which compared the Oslo peace process to the Treaty of Hudabiya. Just as Mohammed had made peace when it suited him, and waged war when the time was right, so too would the Palestinian nation strike Israel when the time was right, was his proclamation.

Bear in mind that this man was later offered 95% of the West Bank, the WHOLE of Gaza and billions of dollars, for 'his people' by Ehud Barak and Bill Clinton and still turned it down because he knew that if he accepted it would mean he would be vilified when the PLO made their next cowardly strike. Here was a man, like his prophet, who was never really interested in peace, but securing an ummah by means of war and conquest (al-Anfal).

*sigh*

with eternal_spirit it was his assumption that the nation of islam was the "voice" of the muslims or whatever. have you latched on to that retard yasser arafat?

hate to break this to you bub. but he isnt much of an argument for your case ;)

oh...and lol @ "by means of war and conquest" - what does al-anfal mean, and what did he conquer? go ahead id love to see this

[islamvslizards]

Christians here also say this smiler thing, which Makes me scratch me head..


there are a few differences tho - the quran was completed and memorised during the prophets own life, and written in book form relatively soon after his death, and it was revealed in stages, at certain events, FOR certain events.

we are meant to understand the context of each and every revelation and apply it accordingly.

what people are doing is not bothering about context and just plucking out whatever suits them.

however i am trying to show that once you actually understand the hows, the whys and the whens of each ayat, theres no contradiction at all, it makes perfect sense.

the hadiths are different - plenty of contradictions. plenty of mistakes. you have to apply a set of criteria to each one to determine whether its reliable or not.

again, what people are doing is assuming that muslims believe that the quran AND hadith are flawless. which is not right.


either way, the contradictions in the books and the fact that they cant be taken as gospel are shown... if the books have become corrupt then none of us know what they were before.... the job would have been already done, the message poisoned.

not contradictions, no. not in the quran. there are some things which were later abrogated, and some things which were referring to particular times/ events. if you dont understand the context then they seem like contradictions.

theres plenty of proofs about the quran being uncorrupted. ive already explained the maths, however, there is also

this little beauty

[adimon]

*sigh*

with eternal_spirit it was his assumption that the nation of islam was the "voice" of the muslims or whatever. have you latched on to that retard yasser arafat?

hate to break this to you bub. but he isnt much of an argument for your case ;)

oh...and lol @ "by means of war and conquest" - what does al-anfal mean, and what did he conquer? go ahead id love to see this

I know very well that there is NO centre of Islam, no one representative that can be used to judge the whole religion. But this fact undermines YOUR argument that by defending YOUR particular brand of Islam, you can defend the others.

I was also making the point that your version of Hudabiya is at odds with a great deal of scholarly opinion.

You have countered by offering your own interpretation, but this is one among many.

You want us to judge Islam by your standards and on your terms.

Nice try, but no cigar.

[metacomet]

what people are doing is not bothering about context and just plucking out whatever suits them.


Story of all religions.

Those who denounce,

and those who enforce.

[eternal_spirit]

Quote:
Originally Posted by islamvslizards http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=947816#post947816)
*sigh*

with eternal_spirit it was his assumption that the nation of islam was the "voice" of the muslims or whatever. have you latched on to that retard yasser arafat?

Never said the majority of Muslims support Nation of Islam if that's what you're infering, but a number of Muslims are Nation of Islam.

[islamvslizards]

I was also making the point that your version of Hudabiya is at odds with a great deal of scholarly opinion.

Nice try, but no cigar.

and you know what the "great deal of scholary opinion" is do you? give me names of famous scholars you know and references to their statements on their stance of this topic. if you are so sure you know what you are talking about.

oh wait...you cant can you ;) your vast library on books that somehow havent even taught you the very basics of any aspect of islam other than "the prophet married a child" (which was shown to be wrong anyway) seems to be lacking somewhat doesnt it?

Story of all religions.

Those who denounce,

and those who enforce.

i havent denounced anyone but the wahabbi death cult, and havent enforeced anything either boss.


Never said the majority of Muslims support Nation of Islam if that's what you're infering, but a number of Muslims are Nation of Islam.


oh ok, fair enough, apologies for the mistake.

[nambo]

Christians are drawn to God because of his goodness and the Love he shows to mankind, the sellfless sacrifice of his son Jesus for us.

Reading the Koran, I find no recommendations of Gods Love, rather a constant reminder that if you are not a Muslim, God is going to spend his time endlessly bringing you back to life so that he can torture you by making you drink boiling water, wear a suit of boiling pitch, and burn you in fire that is 7 times hotter than anything we know.

So are Muslims so religious out of Love, or fear?

I explained to a Muslim at work the origins of the word Hell, (hole in the ground, Hades, the abode of the uncountious dead), the modern notion of Hell being a Catholic tool to frighen us into being subjects, (Muhammeds uncle who brought him up was Catholic), the punishment for sin God gave in the Bible, death, non-existance, dust you are, dust you will return.
And reasoned with him on the absurd notion that a clean God who wants a perfect happy world would keep most of mankind around just so he could endlessly torture them!

He seemed most relieved.

[islamvslizards]

hiya nambo ;) how u doin

Christians are drawn to God because of his goodness and the Love he shows to mankind, the sellfless sacrifice of his son Jesus for us.


it is not in my nature to have interfaith dialogues with anyone, my understanding is, your faith is no ones business but your own. i can answer questions and clear up misconceptions about islam and islam alone, but i wont start forcing my beliefs or debating what faith is better and what is worse. im sorry.

however thank you for the input.


Reading the Koran, I find no recommendations of Gods Love, rather a constant reminder that if you are not a Muslim, God is going to spend his time endlessly bringing you back to life so that he can torture you by making you drink boiling water, wear a suit of boiling pitch, and burn you in fire that is 7 times hotter than anything we know.

wow. which koran have you read my man?

[2.195] And spend in the way of Allah and cast not yourselves to perdition with your own hands, and do good (to others); surely Allah loves the doers of good.

[3.57] And as to those who believe and do good deeds, He will pay them fully their rewards; and Allah does not love the unjust.

[3.76] Yea, whoever fulfills his promise and guards (against evil)-- then surely Allah loves those who guard (against evil).

[3.92] By no means shall you attain to righteousness until you spend (benevolently) out of what you love; and whatever thing you spend, Allah surely knows it.

[3.134] Those who spend (benevolently) in ease as well as in straitness, and those who restrain (their) anger and pardon men; and Allah loves the doers of good (to others).

[4.36] And serve Allah and do not associate any thing with Him and be good to the parents and to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the neighbor of (your) kin and the alien neighbor, and the companion in a journey and the wayfarer and those whom your right hands possess; surely Allah does not love him who is proud, boastful;

[5.42] (They are) listeners of a lie, devourers of what is forbidden; therefore if they come to you, judge between them or turn aside from them, and if you turn aside from them, they shall not harm you in any way; and if you judge, judge between them with equity; surely Allah loves those who judge equitably.

[5.93] On those who believe and do good there is no blame for what they eat, when they are careful (of their duty) and believe and do good deeds, then they are careful (of their duty) and believe, then they are careful (of their duty) and do good (to others), and Allah loves those who do good (to others).


[8.58] And if you fear treachery on the part of a people, then throw back to them on terms of equality; surely Allah does not love the treacherous.

[49.9] And if two parties of the believers quarrel, make peace between them; but if one of them acts wrongfully towards the other, fight that which acts wrongfully until it returns to Allah's command; then if it returns, make peace between them with justice and act equitably; surely Allah loves those who act equitably.

[2.224] And make not Allah because of your swearing (by Him) an obstacle to your doing good and guarding (against evil) and making peace between men, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

theres loads more, but do you get what i am trying to say?


So are Muslims so religious out of Love, or fear?


theres a quotation from imam ali - the cousin of the prophet. he said (i paraphrase)

oh allah! i do not worship you out of fear of hellfire, this is the worship of a sinner. nor do i worship you in order to attain heaven, this is the worship of a greedy man, instead i worship you, because i understand your majesty and see you worthy of my worship


I explained to a Muslim at work the origins of the word Hell, (hole in the ground, Hades, the abode of the uncountious dead), the modern notion of Hell being a Catholic tool to frighen us into being subjects,

the muslim concept of hell is not the same as the christian one. we do not believe hell is underground and heaven is in the sky and clouds.


(Muhammeds uncle who brought him up was Catholic),

and i suppose you can prove this? heres a clue. was his uncles wife a muslim or a catholic ;)


the punishment for sin God gave in the Bible, death, non-existance, dust you are, dust you will return.

christians dont believe in heaven? what happened to st peter and the pearly gates? or hell?


And reasoned with him on the absurd notion that a clean God who wants a perfect happy world would keep most of mankind around just so he could endlessly torture them!

He seemed most relieved.

actually, the muslim view is that only the worst of sinners will be in hell for all eternity. most people who end up there will eventually go to heaven once they have paid their price.

[manxboz]

I believe that Muslims, Christians and Muslims are all brothers and should be working together to stop this pedudince that religions are getting at the minute.

[islamvslizards]

I believe that Muslims, Christians and Muslims are all brothers and should be working together to stop this pedudince that religions are getting at the minute.

thank you...exactly right!

i believe that ALL of us are brothers and sisters man. race, sex, religion, whatever, its all trivial. all that matters is the same people are fucking us all and if we dont come together and get them to cut it out, then we only hurt ourselves.

[leviathanstaar]

1) Why does the prophet Mohamed, and the quaran when quoting Allah, say the word "verily" so many times?(in so many sentences that it makes me want to shoot myself in the face)


2) When veiwing videos about the message of islam, why is: ?

Always filled with over powering hiyo-hiiiiiyo punjabi music.


Definatly not knocking your faith, dogmatic to me though.

I beleive in God, just not the scary opressive one that (same for christianity) demands my constant praise and controls me through fear, then claims to do none of the above.

[mightyoak]

Could post 510 be taken out off context tho ......

[islamvslizards]

Could post 510 be taken out off context tho ......

how?

[luciferhorus]

In response to:

Originally Posted by manxboz
I believe that Muslims, Christians and Muslims are all brothers and should be working together to stop this pedudince that religions are getting at the minute.


thank you...exactly right!

i believe that ALL of us are brothers and sisters man. race, sex, religion, whatever, its all trivial. all that matters is the same people are fucking us all and if we dont come together and get them to cut it out, then we only hurt ourselves.


Frankly I am not uncritical of Mohammad, but similarly to Fidel Castro's Cuban revolution, Mohammad's armies did initiate an armed violent revolution against the corrupt Meccan tyranny and he initiated economic reforms in Mecca which put an end to loan-sharking / usury ('Ahat' in Arabic) and considered it to be 'haram (forbidden).'

All Muslims have a responsibility to carry out armed violent revolution against the Anglo-American Christian state terrorists / narco-terrorists; peaceful co-existance with such tyranny is simply 'haram' and I think would have been inconceivable to Mohammad to make peace with such genocidal Chrsitian torturers and murderers who rain down fire from the sky on women and children.

As much as I am not a fan of Islam or any organised religion, bear in mind that most Communists express solidarity with the Palestinians and the oppressed peoples of Afghanistan and Iraq; the Islamic militia is very much the modern David with their kalishnikivs and guerrilla methods and the Christian terrorists are very much the modern Goliath hiding in their armoured cars and behind bullet profof vests.

In time the kingdoms of the god of Capital shall turn to dust.

Love and Light

Lucifer.
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif
For revolution in all the world.


‘’Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them"

[islamvslizards]

Frankly I am not uncritical of Mohammad, but similarly to Fidel Castro's Cuban revolution, Mohammad's armies did initiate an armed violent revolution against the corrupt Meccan tyranny and he initiated economic reforms in Mecca which put an end to loan-sharking / usury ('Ahat' in Arabic) and considered it to be 'haram (forbidden).'


this is simply not true.

firstly the early muslims were persecuted horribly for their faith before any violence - see the torture of bilal al habashi and the torture and eventual murder of the parents of ammar e yassir as an example. see the boycott of the qureish - the year of sorrow. the muslims beared MANY trials with peace, and only resorted to defending themselves when they had no other option.

i am using a muslim source, but if you can find any non muslim source which discusses the battle of badr please do post it and we will discuss it.

the first "battle" - the battle of badr
(http://www.ezsoftech.com/islamic/badr.asp)

The Meccans and their allies started to bring their raids to the very outskirts of Medina, destroying the fruit trees of the Muslims and carrying away their flocks.

The winter of 624 AD saw the invasion of Medina by a strong force of Meccans led by Abu Jahl consisting of all army of 1000 strong with 700 camels and 100 horses.

Receiving information about this force, the Holy Prophet (S.A.W) decided to meet the enemy outside Medina at a place called as Badr (200 Miles from Mecca and 80 Miles from Medina). He set out with three hundred and thirteen (313) of his followers. This small force was marshaled out of Medina with the youthful Ali holding the Banner of the Prophet (S.A.W).

points to bear in mind:

1- the prophet EMIGRATED away from mecca to avoid troubles with the meccans. they followed him and harrassed his people and their livelyhoods

2- the meccans attacked the prophets people with a force of 1000 men, 700 camels and 100 horses

3- the prophet met them with 313 followers. on foot.

does this seem like "initiating" a violent attack on the poor defenceless peaceful meccans to any sane rational person?


All Muslims have a responsibility to carry out armed violent revolution against the Anglo-American Christian state terrorists / narco-terrorists; peaceful co-existance with such tyranny is simply 'haram' and I think would have been inconceivable to Mohammad to make peace with such genocidal Chrsitian torturers and murderers who rain down fire from the sky on women and children.


erm. this has crossed from the simply not true to the simply ridiculous. i suppose you have references to prove any of those statements?

here is a clue. how many muslims live in the west. do they live in peace or are we murdering everyone we see?

LOL at "inconceivable to mohammed to make peace with such genocidal christian torturers" where on earth do you guys get your info from?

the event of mubahila (http://www.al-islam.org/history/history/mubahila.html)



‘’Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them"

10 points if you can tell me when that ayat was revealed, why, and who its aimed at.

dont worry...i wont hold my breath tho.

[mightyoak]

how?

By plucking out certain ayats that suits your point off view as posted in #510They could be construde as misinterpretations off the bigger picture. You cannot apparently pick out at will the sentence to tell the whole story. Or is it ok when you do it ? But not for the rest off us :confused:

[luciferhorus]

LOL at "inconceivable to mohammed to make peace with such genocidal christian torturers" where on earth do you guys get your info from?



I could cite numerous quotations from the Koran which show it to be a militant religion.

Frankly, since there are myriads of bloggers in the employment of the state terrorists, I am suspicious of anyone claiming to be a Muslim on a board like this who preaches collaboration with the Anglo-American Christian state terrorists and claims to represent Mohammad.

Do the Israelis pay you, or do you just do this for fun?


LL

Lux
http://www.luciferia.tv/animation/A.gif


"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)


"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money (Surah 24:33-)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

[lightgiver]

this is simply not true.

firstly the early muslims were persecuted horribly for their faith before any violence - see the torture of bilal al habashi and the torture and eventual murder of the parents of ammar e yassir as an example. see the boycott of the qureish - the year of sorrow. the muslims beared MANY trials with peace, and only resorted to defending themselves when they had no other option.

i am using a muslim source, but if you can find any non muslim source which discusses the battle of badr please do post it and we will discuss it.

the first "battle" - the battle of badr
(http://www.ezsoftech.com/islamic/badr.asp)



points to bear in mind:

1- the prophet EMIGRATED away from mecca to avoid troubles with the meccans. they followed him and harrassed his people and their livelyhoods

2- the meccans attacked the prophets people with a force of 1000 men, 700 camels and 100 horses

3- the prophet met them with 313 followers. on foot.

does this seem like "initiating" a violent attack on the poor defenceless peaceful meccans to any sane rational person?



erm. this has crossed from the simply not true to the simply ridiculous. i suppose you have references to prove any of those statements?

here is a clue. how many muslims live in the west. do they live in peace or are we murdering everyone we see?

LOL at "inconceivable to mohammed to make peace with such genocidal christian torturers" where on earth do you guys get your info from?

the event of mubahila (http://www.al-islam.org/history/history/mubahila.html)




10 points if you can tell me when that ayat was revealed, why, and who its aimed at.

dont worry...i wont hold my breath tho.


HI, I V L;)

Just ignore the religion haters they will get bored eventually or others will get bored of their hate.:)

Followers of religion have always been persecuted through out the ages and just goes to show some things never change in this day and age.

People always have to blame something,and if religion wasn't around it would be something else.

They are still asleep because they definitely are not awake.;)

God Is Love.

BTW IVL they are not Christian torturers more like reppie torturers or maybe just evil deluded gits.

True religion or spirituality hurts no one intentionally.

[mightyoak]

Just ignore the religion haters they will get bored eventually or others will get bored of their hate.:).

Its not about hating anyone Lightgiver Religionists somehow suggest this when there views are challenged WHY is that ?

Followers of religion have always been persecuted through out the ages and just goes to show some things never change in this day and age..

Take a more unblinkered view and you might find that Abramic religions have persecuted far more. Those whos beliefs are different. ie The celtic pagans by the christian roman & the mayan by the catholic christain conquistadors Not forgetting the Babalonian by the Islamic hoards in the middle east etc etc etc All murdered by the holy And justified by their leaders Who say Their God ordained it BOLLOCKs

And can you honestly dispute all the infighting amonst the Jew Christain & Islamists since the hasty uprising of the one god system was imposed upon mankind. All practice peace to all YEAH RIGHT on bud tAKE A LOOK AROUND YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!


People always have to blame something,and if religion wasn't around it would be something else..

Like i said THEY have alot to be forgiven


They are still asleep because they definitely are not awake.;).

Pathetic and typically textbook.. I'm very awake sunshine to intense dogmatic brainwashing But then again if it works for you FAIR ENUF (pratice it peacefully)


God Is Love..

AGREED but Who or what is God is the question..

BTW IVL they are not Christian torturers more like reppie torturers or maybe just evil deluded gits..

Evil comes from within the soul Religion oks this at times Deluded is always a two edged sword


True religion or spirituality hurts no one intentionally.

Couldn't agree more with this statement lightgiver Have a nice day Enjoy Gods warmth TODAY and always

[decode reality]

Greetings...

There's a general air of suspicion and ignorance (in the most neutral sense of the word, i.e ill informed) towards Islam in the uk at the moment. Obviously the false flag attacks of recent years have fed into this. From your perspective, what do you feel are the BENEFITS that Islam could bring to British society? I know that's a big question but I look forward to your response.:)

[uncia]

Greetings...

There's a general air of suspicion and ignorance (in the most neutral sense of the word, i.e ill informed) towards Islam in the uk at the moment. Obviously the false flag attacks of recent years have fed into this. From your perspective, what do you feel are the BENEFITS that Islam could bring to British society? I know that's a big question but I look forward to your response.:)
Islam "could" overthrow the apostate British political and legal system, along with all their self-serving atheists. However I doubt it. All that will happen is that sheer weight of muslim numbers will in the end ensure that Muslim law is instituted as an alternative legal system.

[lostwonderer]

Why aren't women and men allowed to pray togeather?

Why aren't non-muslims allowed in a mosque?

[eternal_spirit]

what do you feel are the BENEFITS that Islam could bring to British society? I know that's a big question but I look forward to your response.:)
None it only brings problems.

[flyermay]

Why aren't women and men allowed to pray togeather?

I think that women could distract men, and vice versa, when praying. :)

Why aren't non-muslims allowed in a mosque?

Why would they, they are definitely not going to pray to Allah, which is the only function of a mosque... ;)

[lostwonderer]

I think that women could distract men, and vice versa, when praying. :)

So they're weak-minded now? I assume people go to pray, not eye up the opposite sex. :p


Why would they, they are definitely not going to pray to Allah, which is the only function of a mosque... ;)

Why wouldn't they? The fact that other faiths allow this shows something.

[flyermay]

Why wouldn't they? The fact that other faiths allow this shows something.

I don't get your point... are you saying that Islam should be like other faiths?

Hey, I never said that line you posted in the middle of my quote... :eek:

[lostwonderer]

I don't get your point... are you saying that Islam should be like other faiths?

No. I'm saying they should be tolerant enough to allow people of other faiths in. Why the big upheaval?

Edit: Sorted now.

[flyermay]

So they're weak-minded now? I assume people go to pray, not eye up the opposite sex. :p

:) I wouldn't say that (and I'm not trying to offend anyone here), but all the Muslims I know are with their "Radar ON" 24/7 -If you know what I mean-. So it's understandable that women and men are not allowed to pray together.

No. I'm saying they should be tolerant enough to allow people of other faiths in. Why the big upheaval?

But, why allow someone in, who has no intention to pray, in a place where other people are praying? That would also be disrespectful for those praying.

[lostwonderer]

:) I would say that (and I'm not trying to offend anyone here), but all the Muslims I know are with their "Radar ON" 24/7 -If you know what I mean-. So it's understandable that women and men are not allowed to pray together.



But, why allow someone in, who has no intention to pray, in a place where other people are praying? That would also be disrespectful for those praying.

I can't see how it would be disrespectful, it's not as if people are going to be running amok. Some may be curious, or want to observe, or even pray i.e belief that all God's are the same.

[flyermay]

I can't see how it would be disrespectful, it's not as if people are going to be running amok. Some may be curious, or want to observe, or even pray i.e belief that all God's are the same.

Well... if I'm praying (whatever my faith would be), I wouldn't like any "infidel" sneaking around.

A Mosque has just one purpose, and that’s praying to Allah. So it’s understandable if they prefer tourists and other visitors outside.

There are many places in our society were tourists and visitors are not allowed; and there's usually a good reason for it.

[islamvslizards]

I can't see how it would be disrespectful, it's not as if people are going to be running amok. Some may be curious, or want to observe, or even pray i.e belief that all God's are the same.

i think something is lost in translation when its said that non muslims arent "allowed" in mosques. i doubt you will ever see someone forcefully ejected from a mosque by muslims (unless the mosque is a salafi/ wahabbi one) because they are not muslim.

mosques are seen as deeply spiritual places, with certain customs, for example taking shoes off before entering to stop dirt from outside being trampled where people place their heads, and a dress code. it is considered respectful for a woman to be covered up, as we believe her beauty should only be shown to her husband, not any passing leery man. its also considered respectful for a man to be covered up, as it is not pleasant for a man to see another mans body (eg hairy legs if he is wearing shorts lol)

if someone does not observe these customs, then they will probably be asked to, and if they continue to refuse without providing a decent reason, then they will be asked to leave.

[fidelcastro]

Just found this topic and find it very usefull. Thank you for your time answering all these questions.

I have a question about this:

basically tho, it boils down to - be the best person you can according to your own heart and mind, and leave the rest to god.

The Quran clearly states that you have to follow the 5 pillars, for example perform your prayers. It repeatedly states that if you dont perform your prayers you will enter hell.

So how can you enter heaven if you never performed your prayers.

1 more question:
You said the hadith is not reliable. How does one know how to perform prayer when it is not to be found in the Quran how to perform them?

[fidelcastro]

and anyway, its only the prophet or the ahlebeyt who have the actual right to kill apostates, not regular people. and since the final member of the ahlebeyt, the awaited one, imam mehdi (may god hasten his return) has still not arisen...that means all these lovely little fatwas calling everyone an apostate arent worth the paper they are scrawled upon

Is the coming of imam mehdi mentioned in the Quran? If yes where can i find this?

[islamvslizards]

The Quran clearly states that you have to follow the 5 pillars, for example perform your prayers. It repeatedly states that if you dont perform your prayers you will enter hell.

So how can you enter heaven if you never performed your prayers.

there are different rules for different people. for muslims, there are these criteria, but for the non muslims, there are other.

the quran states:

[7.8] And the measuring out on that day will be just; then as for him whose measure (of good deeds) is heavy, those are they who shall be successful;

ask yourself - is it just to kill all non muslims, even if they were good people? or if they did not know or understand the commandments of islam? would they deserve hellfire?

look at the punishment for being unjust in the quran:

[10.54] And if every soul that has done injustice had all that is in the earth, it would offer it for ransom, and they will manifest regret when they see the chastisement and the matter shall be decided between them with justice and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.

if allah punishes the unjust in such a way, how can he be unjust himself?

above all this ayat needs reflection

[21.47] And We will set up a just balance on the day of resurrection, so no soul shall be dealt with unjustly in the least; and though there be the weight of a grain of mustard seed, (yet) will We bring it, and sufficient are We to take account.

also

it is worth noting that jews and christians never pray as muslims do, but look at how the quran praises them:

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

in fact this is one of the rare ayats that is actually REPEATED elsewhere

[5.69] Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

[5.44] Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.

so we know that jews and christians can enter heaven

but what about non abrahamic religions? how can THEY enter heaven?

the quran states:

[2.58] And when We said: Enter this city, then eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish, and enter the gate making obeisance, and say, forgiveness. We will forgive you your wrongs and give more to those who do good (to others).

and this:

[3.148] So Allah gave them the reward of this world and better reward of the hereafter and Allah loves those who do good (to others).

and this:

[5.13] But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).

and this:

[5.85] Therefore Allah rewarded them on account of what they said, with gardens in which rivers flow to abide in them; and this is the reward of those who do good (to others).

and this:

[7.56] And do not make mischief in the earth after its reformation, and call on Him fearing and hoping; surely the mercy of Allah is nigh to those who do good (to others).

and this:

[10.26] For those who do good is good (reward) and more (than this); and blackness or ignominy shall not cover their faces; these are the dwellers of the garden; in it they shall abide.

and this:

[12.90] They said: Are you indeed Yusuf? He said: I am Yusuf and this is my brother; Allah has indeed been gracious to us; surely he who guards (against evil) and is patient (is rewarded) for surely Allah does not waste the reward of those who do good.

and this:

[13.23] The gardens of perpetual abode which they will enter along with those who do good from among their parents and their spouses and their offspring; and the angels will enter in upon them from every gate:

and this:

[40.8] Our Lord! and make them enter the gardens of perpetuity which Thou hast promised to them and those who do good of their fathers and their wives and their offspring, surely Thou are the Mighty, the Wise.

and this:

[53.31] And Allah's is what is in the heavens and what is in the earth, that He may reward those who do evil according to what they do, and (that) He may reward those who do good with goodness.

so you see we can conclude the following:

(1) other people, not just muslims will attain heaven
(2) especially amongst the jews and the christians, who do not pray etc
(3) a common theme is "those who do good" entering heaven - in many places without the catch that "those who do good" are only muslims



1 more question:
You said the hadith is not reliable. How does one know how to perform prayer when it is not to be found in the Quran how to perform them?

which hadith do you mean? theres hundreds of thousands of them, if not millions.

[islamvslizards]

Is the coming of imam mehdi mentioned in the Quran? If yes where can i find this?

yes. i suggest you read this (http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/mahdi/en/chap2.php) in its entirety.

start from "First Evidence" about a third of the way down the page

[fidelcastro]

Thanx for your answer.

which hadith do you mean? theres hundreds of thousands of them, if not millions.

I mean Bukhari and Muslim. You said before that they are not to be trusted because they are infiltrated and they were written 200 years after the prophet died.

Now tell me if we cannot trust the hadith, where do we learn how to pray? I cannot find this in the Quran. Can we have a own interpretation on how the prayers should be performed?

[islamvslizards]

Thanx for your answer.
I mean Bukhari and Muslim. You said before that they are not to be trusted because they are infiltrated and they were written 200 years after the prophet died.

Now tell me if we cannot trust the hadith, where do we learn how to pray? I cannot find this in the Quran. Can we have a own interpretation on how the prayers should be performed?

what i am saying is (unfortunatelty) absolutely true.

bukhari DID live a few hundred years after the prophets death

there was a ban on writing hadith during the prophets life, and it was ibn umar and muawiyyah who started it, not the prophet himself.

on top of that i strongly suggest you research into the punishment of abu hurraira by the caliph omar for being paid to fabricate hadiths.

there are true hadith, and false hadiths.

Now tell me if we cannot trust the hadith, where do we learn how to pray?

Hadith studies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

let me give you an example, out of many that i can quote

(1) the lady fidha, the ethiopian princess who at the time of the prophet left everything to become a slave in the household of the prophet. she spent her entire life afterwards in the household of the prophet. she was present in every major event, right up until the massacre of kerbala and beyond.

she only spoke the quran for more than 20 years, no matter what she was asked.

now. for someone that spent her entire life learning directly from, and living with, the prophet and his family, can you tell me how many hadith are narrated from her in bukhari, where she describes ANYTHING she saw the prophet do?

have you even heard of her?

why is this?

(2) the prophets wife aisha spent less than 8 years at the end of the prophets life, yet between her and abu hurraira (who only spent 2 or 3 years in the presence of the prophet) they narrate OVER 90% OF THE HADITHS in the books.

does this seem logical?

[fidelcastro]

does this seem logical?

Still doesnt answer my question. My question is how can we know how to perform prayer conform islam if the bukhari-muslim hadiths are unreliable and thus cannot accept them to be true?

Do we fabricate a way of praying individually?

[islamvslizards]

Do we fabricate a way of praying individually?

apologies, we should have been clearer.

we know how to pray etc by an analysis of the chains of narrators plus the matn of the hadith.

sunni scholars believe the prophet prayed a certain way, based on narrations of certain narrators in their books

shia scholars believe the prophet prayed a certain way based on their books, however shia books are different in that ALL hadiths are combined, good and bad, there has been no attempt to filter them, since shias believe that it is the job of scholars to apply ilm ar rijal to hadiths to see if they are valid or not

this is different to sunnis, who rely soley on the trustworthiness of bukhari, who vetted all hadiths himself and left out the chains of the hadiths so no one could verify them at a later date, since he thought the job had already been done.

so no, we do not fabricate the way to pray, this is never been what i have said. i have always maintained that bukhari and muslim et al are not as reliable as people make out, but sunni scholars have agreed that the hadiths relating to praying are valid so thats how sunnis pray.

shias scholars have analysed THEIR hadiths and have concluded thats how the shias should pray.

[fidelcastro]

apologies, we should have been clearer.

we know how to pray etc by an analysis of the chains of narrators plus the matn of the hadith.

sunni scholars believe the prophet prayed a certain way, based on narrations of certain narrators in their books

shia scholars believe the prophet prayed a certain way based on their books, however shia books are different in that ALL hadiths are combined, good and bad, there has been no attempt to filter them, since shias believe that it is the job of scholars to apply ilm ar rijal to hadiths to see if they are valid or not

this is different to sunnis, who rely soley on the trustworthiness of bukhari, who vetted all hadiths himself and left out the chains of the hadiths so no one could verify them at a later date, since he thought the job had already been done.

so no, we do not fabricate the way to pray, this is never been what i have said. i have always maintained that bukhari and muslim et al are not as reliable as people make out, but sunni scholars have agreed that the hadiths relating to praying are valid so thats how sunnis pray.

shias scholars have analysed THEIR hadiths and have concluded thats how the shias should pray.

So you say that the sunni hadiths are in fact corrupted, but the shia hadiths are in fact authentic?

So muslims should better follow the hadiths of the shia?

What is the name of the shia hadiths and do you have a link to them?

What do sunni's think about the shia hadiths?

[islamvslizards]

So you say that the sunni hadiths are in fact corrupted, but the shia hadiths are in fact authentic?

no, thats precisely the opposite of what i said.

....however shia books are different in that ALL hadiths are combined, good and bad, there has been no attempt to filter them, since shias believe that it is the job of scholars to apply ilm ar rijal to hadiths to see if they are valid or not


So muslims should better follow the hadiths of the shia?

when did i say this?

i said we need to apply the science of hadith to all hadith, where hadith in bukhari can be corroborated in other books that contain the same hadith WITH chains, then analyse the hadiths.

where the hadith has no chain and is not found in any other books, be careful.

when the hadith goes against the quran, reject it.



What is the name of the shia hadiths and do you have a link to them?

they are scattered all over the place. im not sure they are online in english tho.


What do sunni's think about the shia hadiths?

they agree with the shia hadiths which also appear in sunni books, agree with shia hadiths if the chain of narrators are verified, and, just like shias, reject any hadiths that go against the quran or the chain is dodgy.

[islamvslizards]

the shia hadith books are a collection of hadiths - not a collection of hadiths that the compiler thought were sahih.

the "main" books are the:

kitab al kafi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitab_al-Kafi)

and

bihar ul anwar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar_al-Anwar)

however shias believe that only the quran is sahih, and every single hadith must be analysed i.e. it is wrong to accept any hadith in bukhari/muslim just because it is IN those books.

usool al kafi and bihar ul anwar are full of bullshit hadiths, shias openly admit this.

[fidelcastro]

the shia hadith books are a collection of hadiths - not a collection of hadiths that the compiler thought were sahih.

the "main" books are the:

kitab al kafi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitab_al-Kafi)

and

bihar ul anwar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar_al-Anwar)

however shias believe that only the quran is sahih, and every single hadith must be analysed i.e. it is wrong to accept any hadith in bukhari/muslim just because it is IN those books.

usool al kafi and bihar ul anwar are full of bullshit hadiths, shias openly admit this.


Thank you i understand you now and will try and learn more about the science of hadith.

[islamvslizards]

peace