Kabbalism??

[thewaycreates]

what do you think of Kabbalism?

i hear Freeman talk about it in a negative light, but i here Fred Alan Wolf put Kabbalism in a postive light.

[metatron]

Ooooppppps I read that as Kanabbalism.......dunno what that says about me:eek:

As for kabbalism well I don't know too much about apart from Madonna and some other celebs think its cool......thats enough for me to stay away from it!!!

[chris]

Kabballah is so big that it's hard to say it's good or not...Let's just say it's like Christianity, there are all kinds, evangelical, orthodox, methodist..Same with Qabalah.

I kind of practice a lot of the philosophies from hermetic qabalah, although what I practice is very practical because a lot of 'hermetic qabalists' simply do away with the original teachings and just use the symbols. I actually practice real hermeticism (alchemy) I also practice traditional astrology (to time when it's most powerful to meditate and conduct rituals) these types of things have been set aside thanks to 20th century magicians like Crowley and Mathers.

The very dumbed down explanation of qabalah (no knit picking) is that it's a map of the mind/universe (the tree of life)...The ten sephiroth basically split all symbols, gods, planets, plants, everything into there relative sphere. The purpose for doing this is so that if you can fill your mind with the corresponding symbols then you can penetrate into those energies through the higher language (symbolism). You can also use it to create your own rituals so you have yet another layer of symbolism triggering your mind...

Madonna learns more of the orthodox type of Kaballah which centers around numerology and the Jewish tradition. I don’t know much more about it apart from that she’s learning from an ex-insurance salesman.

http://emeagwali.com/speeches/immortality/Qabbalah-Tree-of-Life.jpg

[tru3]

You can also use it to create your own rituals so you have yet another layer of symbolism triggering your mind...

triggering the mind to do exactly...what?

my concern with qabbalah would be that it is a symbol of a symbol, especially the version that deals with numerology. it's twice removed from reality. too much potential for abuse, manipulation, imo.

as i understand it, the original tree of life came out of babylon, which the tribes 'borrowed' (?) when they operated out of babylon.

the tree of life is a map. it is a mental concept.

we are the territory. we are the living mandala.

focusing on an external symbol robs one of personal power.

abide as the Self, drop identification or focus on the symbol.

so it appears to me.

[chris]

triggering the mind to do exactly...what?

Let's say we are talking on levels of mind...We have a higher level of mind that creates abstract ideas that lay them down into the real world that is intangible yet mean something. This is call art. A tarot card might mean absolutely nothing yet the symbolic meaning might attract you to it with some kind of nostalgia or interest, this is because it is talking to your higher mind which only speaks in symbols and symbolic meaning. You may think tarot cards are shit but the principal is the same for art, films (matrix especially) or anything that conveys a deeper meaning and not just a mathmatical monotomous view of reality.

http://www.samhills.com/images/crm114_tarot_card_logo_small.jpg

A ritual is not for your lower mind, it is for your higher mind. If done correctly then you should be immersed in the symbolism to draw and build upon those energies that are corresponded with the particular sphere of the tree of life. Doing this has a strange effect on the mind, I seem to get very symbolic dreams at night for instance, last night I had a sword and kissed the ruby inside of it, then I got an eraser and started erasing all things on a white piece of paper, while this was happening I was speaking of the paper as my mind and the scribbles as the distractions and the act of erasing them as concentration...This is because my mind has been triggered with symbolic meanings during the day and is still working with them at night. This happens to all of us all the time but a ceremony is the act of consciously doing it with a desired effect and outcome, I think it’s the highest form of art since you are expressing your higher mind more so than with any other art (if done well)…

There is a false paradigm regarding it, there are the satanic witch burners and the dogmatic idol worshippers…The basic concepts are able to be found if you’ve got discernment though and then it’s all about making it work to prove it for yourself.

[chris]

my concern with qabbalah would be that it is a symbol of a symbol, especially the version that deals with numerology. it's twice removed from reality. too much potential for abuse, manipulation, imo.

as i understand it, the original tree of life came out of babylon, which the tribes 'borrowed' (?) when they operated out of babylon.

the tree of life is a map. it is a mental concept.

we are the territory. we are the living mandala.

focusing on an external symbol robs one of personal power.

abide as the Self, drop identification or focus on the symbol.

so it appears to me.

You convey the majority of occultists that are around. These people only really understand part of what is going on and receive little results. If you are worshipping symbols and getting nowhere then you might be inclined to take your view and save a little time and effort but if they are put in action then they can have interesting results.

There is nothing more unhealthy than to identify with anything other than who you really are; like you say, symbols can be an entrapment but also can be a way out.

[chris]

If you never use the higher mind because it can entrap you then you cannot create analogies, you cannot create meanings that convey a meaning much easier than text. So I don't think doing away with symbolism is the way to go...I heard someone once say that a picture is worth a thousand words and a symbol is worth a thousand pictures...This is true, when you make a great slogan, it will convey a great deal of meaning without actually saying much at all. This is the idea.

[tru3]

You convey the majority of occultists that are around. These people only really understand part of what is going on and receive little results. If you are worshipping symbols and getting nowhere then you might be inclined to take your view and save a little time and effort but if they are put in action then they can have interesting results.

There is nothing more unhealthy than to identify with anything other than who you really are; like you say, symbols can be an entrapment but also can be a way out.

i like this response. good on ya! :) i have a couple of other thoughts and observations that are not aimed at you personally, chris, but just in general...

i'm curious: from your experience, what does "put in action" look like? can you give me an example?

If you never use the higher mind because it can entrap you then you cannot create analogies, you cannot create meanings that convey a meaning much easier than text. So I don't think doing away with symbolism is the way to go...I heard someone once say that a picture is worth a thousand words and a symbol is worth a thousand pictures...This is true, when you make a great slogan, it will convey a great deal of meaning without actually saying much at all. This is the idea.

doing away with the symbol is in impossibility, imv; the mind is a symbol-making machine. everything is referenced to everything else. one can't signify something without referring to another signifier, like trying to define a word without using other words or pictures. the map is not the territory, in other words.

my gut tells me that the tree of life is just a pictorial representation of our own energetic "cosmology". i have studied the tao te ching on and off for years, for example, and i have come to believe that it's the same kind of thing: "the sage" is the higher self, and the "people" is the human body, "the ten thousand things" is the monkey mind, so to speak. alchemy, which was carried to the west from the taoists, is not about converting lead into gold, it is about refining chi fron jing into shen. so, qabbalah would also just be the same kind of pictorial representation.

however, since we all share this energy, when we tap into an aspect of the tree, we tap into all the energy that it is, the "malevolent" as well as the "benevolent".

ever heard the phrase, "when you have sex with someone, you're having sex with everyone else that person has had sex with?" i think it's the same thing here! :D

since the earliest versions of the tree come out of babylon, i just wonder what the original intention of qabbalah was.

so, i'm not attacking anyone for practising it, i'm genuinely curious and concerned about the unseen effects the practise may have on someone.

imo, it's playing with dynamite, and one needs to be well grounded and at least passingly familiar with one's own subconscious fears and wounds before one dives in.

in all the mystery schools, there were the left-hand and the right-hand paths. the right-hand was all the symbols and how to work with them, and the left-hand was about working with the subconscious, the emotions, and all the messy stuff associated with being a human being. it was believed that unless one addressed the left hand, the right hand could literally apart the psyche of the initiate. one couldn't even participate in the right-hand school until one had spent years in the left-hand school.

i have no question that qabbalah is a powerful practise. in fact, i believe that's why extra caution is advised. i also believe that caution is advised with any kind of esoteric practise (caveat emptor, and all that ;)) in the little i've read about the version of qabbalah that madonna practises, i see no hint that the left-hand is being acknowledged; just jump right in start working with the symbols.

imo, that's a really immature approach, and leaves one vulnerable. not just to outside manipulation, but also to inner blocks and wounds.

believe me, i speak from personal experience, when these "inner dragons" rush up from the subconscious, it can be a shattering experience. it's quite a predicament, really, and a sword that cuts both ways: lasting transformation can't happen without this process, and yet when one is laying there, the mind and ego flattened and deflated, so to speak, one is extremely vulnerable and exposed. great care is required, great trust in the process to allow the ego to grow into service to the higher self. it's a rebuilding process fraught with peril, and not for the faint of heart! so it appears to me.

i would go so far to say that the brotherhood knows this, and uses this exquisite vulnerability to their own ends. on a more mundane level, 'gurus' of all sorts have used this process to create little coccoons for themselves, manipulating peoples daddy/mommy issues to control them.

you seem to have a pretty good grasp of this, chris, so my comments are more directed for anyone else wandering into this thread. :)

p.s. i like your av. i can't help thinking about bobby lee on mad tv...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7561698324653383862&q=mad+tv+bobby+lee+master&total=18&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[carlg1212]

what do you think of Kabbalism?

i hear Freeman talk about it in a negative light, but i here Fred Alan Wolf put Kabbalism in a postive light.

Magic's neither good nor bad. The people using it.....now that's a different story.

[chris]

i like this response. good on ya! :) i have a couple of other thoughts and observations that are not aimed at you personally, chris, but just in general...

i'm curious: from your experience, what does "put in action" look like? can you give me an example?


I’d be happy to!

Let’s say for instance I wanted to do a meditation on the tree of life rather than a ritual which is the same thing apart from it is all internal. I would start off just with a silent meditation to concentrate my mind. Then when I am all relaxed (neck especially) I will begin by entering the temple of Malkuth and to cut it very short I will simply fill my experience in the realm of Malkith with the corresponding symbolism. After a little exploration I usually get a kundalini awakening and an experience or vision.

The other day I was in the temple of tipheret and I saw a cross on top of a hill with a giant Roman next to it with a huge sword piercing the sky and through the cut of the cloud I saw a ray of light shining down onto the cross. The sword had the number 1999 on it and it began to snow. I could hear a voice in my right ear speaking of the symbolism but it was going far too fast for me to comprehend it, I had to concentrate my hardest just to hear it or else it would sound like gibberish but it was still going too fast for me to remember.

This is an example of putting a symbol in action.



doing away with the symbol is in impossibility, imv; the mind is a symbol-making machine. everything is referenced to everything else. one can't signify something without referring to another signifier, like trying to define a word without using other words or pictures. the map is not the territory, in other words.

my gut tells me that the tree of life is just a pictorial representation of our own energetic "cosmology". i have studied the tao te ching on and off for years, for example, and i have come to believe that it's the same kind of thing: "the sage" is the higher self, and the "people" is the human body, "the ten thousand things" is the monkey mind, so to speak. alchemy, which was carried to the west from the taoists, is not about converting lead into gold, it is about refining chi fron jing into shen. so, qabbalah would also just be the same kind of pictorial representation.

however, since we all share this energy, when we tap into an aspect of the tree, we tap into all the energy that it is, the "malevolent" as well as the "benevolent".

ever heard the phrase, "when you have sex with someone, you're having sex with everyone else that person has had sex with?" i think it's the same thing here! :D

since the earliest versions of the tree come out of babylon, i just wonder what the original intention of qabbalah was.

so, i'm not attacking anyone for practising it, i'm genuinely curious and concerned about the unseen effects the practise may have on someone.

imo, it's playing with dynamite, and one needs to be well grounded and at least passingly familiar with one's own subconscious fears and wounds before one dives in.

in all the mystery schools, there were the left-hand and the right-hand paths. the right-hand was all the symbols and how to work with them, and the left-hand was about working with the subconscious, the emotions, and all the messy stuff associated with being a human being. it was believed that unless one addressed the left hand, the right hand could literally apart the psyche of the initiate. one couldn't even participate in the right-hand school until one had spent years in the left-hand school.

i have no question that qabbalah is a powerful practise. in fact, i believe that's why extra caution is advised. i also believe that caution is advised with any kind of esoteric practise (caveat emptor, and all that ;)) in the little i've read about the version of qabbalah that madonna practises, i see no hint that the left-hand is being acknowledged; just jump right in start working with the symbols.

imo, that's a really immature approach, and leaves one vulnerable. not just to outside manipulation, but also to inner blocks and wounds.

believe me, i speak from personal experience, when these "inner dragons" rush up from the subconscious, it can be a shattering experience. it's quite a predicament, really, and a sword that cuts both ways: lasting transformation can't happen without this process, and yet when one is laying there, the mind and ego flattened and deflated, so to speak, one is extremely vulnerable and exposed. great care is required, great trust in the process to allow the ego to grow into service to the higher self. it's a rebuilding process fraught with peril, and not for the faint of heart! so it appears to me.

i would go so far to say that the brotherhood knows this, and uses this exquisite vulnerability to their own ends. on a more mundane level, 'gurus' of all sorts have used this process to create little coccoons for themselves, manipulating peoples daddy/mommy issues to control them.

you seem to have a pretty good grasp of this, chris, so my comments are more directed for anyone else wandering into this thread. :)

p.s. i like your av. i can't help thinking about bobby lee on mad tv...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7561698324653383862&q=mad+tv+bobby+lee+master&total=18&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

You make very good points. However I don’t really think that playing with the tree of life is like playing with dynamite. The biggest problem I see from most occultists is that they are desperate for results; this leads them down a one way path. They are quick to point out the dogmatic teachings of other religions but fail to see their own shortcomings. They copy previous magicians and expect to see the same results but magic is an art and needs to be spontaneous or not at all. They miss out the basics like a healthy diet and extremely concentrated mind and they go for quick fixes like sexual exhaustion or near death obe’s. You can’t get prolonged results this way although this is not really their fault as this is pretty much all that has been written about in the occult world since Crowley.

[baron von lotsov]

It's evil.

Basically it's a Jewish form of the occult. Anyone who dabbles in it is asking for trouble but I know a lot of you have been highly bullshitted during your lives and think black is white and white is black.

Are we to go through each and every branch of the occult with a long diagnosis that will reveal the exact same thing or are any of you going to get the general principle that the occult is evil? Not some of the time but all of the time! Really its like trying to communicate with morons on this board sometimes who never ever learn and are the first to jump on a bit of truth and pronounce it as disinfo. Back at Illusions another pointless thread has been running for pages.

http://illusionsforum.jconserv.net/viewtopic.php?t=3547&sid=d3ab503de10de171554722272a808705

Notice how LUCKYDOGNICK is trying to work on MorganLefey and notice the complete brick wall ignorance and crass stupidity. Having an education is no good when the mind gets possessed.

This sort of thing goes on far more than useful NWO research but then these infiltrators need to be dealt with, lest they spread their poison to more unwitting victims.

[chris]

these infiltrators need to be dealt with, lest they spread their poison to more unwitting victims.

Try as you might baron, you will never stop me; mauahaahhaahhahahaahah

[chris]

Face it; occultists have suffered just as much as any other religions at the hands of the elite. It's just that now they have infiltrated and made a pseudo occult world based on the fire and brimstone philosophy to freak everyone out.

[john white]

It's evil.

Basically it's a Jewish form of the occult. Anyone who dabbles in it is asking for trouble but I know a lot of you have been highly bullshitted during your lives and think black is white and white is black.



Interesting. becuase there is no doubt whatsoever that Kabbalism is the root of the Torah, which is the root of the Old Testament, which is the root of the New Testament, which is the root of the Koran

And its evil you say?

Leaving your propogandising out of it for a moment Baron:

When will you find the courage to deal with the facts?

[tru3]

You make very good points. However I don’t really think that playing with the tree of life is like playing with dynamite. The biggest problem I see from most occultists is that they are desperate for results; this leads them down a one way path. They are quick to point out the dogmatic teachings of other religions but fail to see their own shortcomings. They copy previous magicians and expect to see the same results but magic is an art and needs to be spontaneous or not at all. They miss out the basics like a healthy diet and extremely concentrated mind and they go for quick fixes like sexual exhaustion or near death obe’s. You can’t get prolonged results this way although this is not really their fault as this is pretty much all that has been written about in the occult world since Crowley.

excellent response. ideological myopia abounds, as we can see by some of the posts in this thread. :)

as for being or not being dynamite, i maintain that it is. precisely because people become so desperate for results, they can become vulnerable to despair.

[carlg1212]

Interesting. becuase there is no doubt whatsoever that Kabbalism is the root of the Torah, which is the root of the Old Testament, which is the root of the New Testament, which is the root of the Koran

And its evil you say?

Leaving your propogandising out of it for a moment Baron:

When will you find the courage to deal with the facts?

What's up John!

I agree. Ironically, Baron uses the same logic to defeat his own argument. He needs to understand (but he probably never will) that any dogmatic belief is never good. There are good and bad things we can learn from all belief systems.

The same method is used to tap into the good things, no matter what the name for it may be. I don't know if that makes any sense.

[chris]

What's up John!

I agree. Ironically, Baron uses the same logic to defeat his own argument. He needs to understand (but he probably never will) that any dogmatic belief is never good. There are good and bad things we can learn from all belief systems.

The same method is used to tap into the good things, no matter what the name for it may be. I don't know if that makes any sense.

The way I discover truth is to always question my current beliefs even if I know they are correct because you never know, I might be wrong.

I've found this detrimental to me when talking about conspiracies because I always entertain the other side of the argument, while the other person does not. I am learning to be more of a bigot when it comes to truthin'

Baron has one of the best discernments that I've met on the net but I think he's exhausting himself a bit too much on this issue. Baron, almost all occultists I know are simply into roleplaying, this is as far as their magic goes. So most occultists you speak to are little more than actors, there is little you can do for their souls. Most are not ushering in the nwo, they probably have a higher %age than the other religions but real nwo people are in the nwo institutions because there they don't need to worry about all the pompus rituals and whatnot (which most don't believe in anyway).

[tru3]

The way I discover truth is to always question my current beliefs even if I know they are correct because you never know, I might be wrong.

I've found this detrimental to me when talking about conspiracies because I always entertain the other side of the argument, while the other person does not. I am learning to be more of a bigot when it comes to truthin'

Baron has one of the best discernments that I've met on the net but I think he's exhausting himself a bit too much on this issue. Baron, almost all occultists I know are simply into roleplaying, this is as far as their magic goes. So most occultists you speak to are little more than actors, there is little you can do for their souls. Most are not ushering in the nwo, they probably have a higher %age than the other religions but real nwo people are in the nwo institutions because there they don't need to worry about all the pompus rituals and whatnot (which most don't believe in anyway).

great post.

my whole approach to discussing esoteric subjects on this forum is like discussing safe sex.

one approach would be saying, "unsafe sex is dangerous! evil! don't do it!".

a more realistic approach might be, "people are going to have sex. to believe otherwise is naive. let's educate people about safe practises."

people who are attracted to this forum are investigating and experimenting all the time. some will inevitably fall into 'unsafe' practises (fools rush in where angels fear to tread).

let's take this out of the realm of theory and into the 'real' world for a moment.

i have been around spiritual seekers for 15 years. many people i have known started out with a sense of desperation, a desire to escape the mess we're in. i believe someone in a recent thread noted the high rate of suicide with respect to new age enclaves (true or not, the city with the highest suicide rates in the u.s. are seattle/tacoma, miami, and of course, las vegas). i was prone to suicidal thoughts myself, before i ever took up any spiritual practise. i believe it is the desperation people carry into their practises, not the practises themselves, that contribute to the suicide. i realized a long time ago that spiritual materialism is a path that can lead to perdition. overindulgence in anything can give one a tummyache. :-0

this is not to brag, just to witness, that having a spiritual practise, based in Divine Love, has helped me to let go of this dark energy i was prone to. for me, they are not to gain anything, but to assist me in letting go of illusions.

threads like this are valuable because they leave a record for those performing their due dilligence, which is always practical, imv. the more pov's the better.

the awareness of the pitfalls of the esoteric leads one to better choices.

[titurel]

Interesting. becuase there is no doubt whatsoever that Kabbalism is the root of the Torah, which is the root of the Old Testament, which is the root of the New Testament, which is the root of the Koran

And its evil you say?

Leaving your propogandising out of it for a moment Baron:

When will you find the courage to deal with the facts?
There is no doubt that the Kabalah is the root of the Bible but to put a finer point on it, the Kabbalah is the mirror image of the Bible... therefore, all the "truths" of the Kabbalah are reversed... black becomes white and white becomes black. That is why Freemasonry, for example, is based,, not on the positive image of the Bible, but the negative image. That is why Sophia of the Kabbalah preaches that the Serpent in Eden, who tempted Eve to eat of the fruit (the Kabbalah), is the hero. Thus, through the Kabbalah, the Reptilians are able to syphon off great oceans of spiritual energy from Kabbalah practising humans...

Eliphas Levi's mirrored hex[agram], depicting the positive and negative reflections of light. The Kabbalah springs from the negative reflection...

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9333/eliphasleviak4.gif

Freemason Albert Pike, noted that Freemasonry and all the dogmatic religions issued from the Kabbalah:

"ALL truly dogmatic religions have issued from the Kabalah and return to it; everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of all the Illuminati, Jacob Boeheme, Swedenborg, Saint Martin, and others, is borrowed from the Kabalah: all Masonic associations owe to it their Secrets and their Symbols." (Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma p.744)

Secrecy & Hypocrisy

(Matthew 10:27-28 - Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light)

That which they were secretly doing that undergirded their secret religious philosophies, while outwardly wearing religious garb, Jesus called hypocrisy! Hypocrisy is the ancient term to wear a mask and play different roles as an actor would in a play. Jesus was well aware of their occult practices and condemned them. What was their response? To crucify him. They very ones who practiced the occult arts, gematria, and had the elaborate system of the sefiroth, nailed Jesus to the Pagan Cross!

[chris]

i believe someone in a recent thread noted the high rate of suicide with respect to new age enclaves (true or not, the city with the highest suicide rates in the u.s. are seattle/tacoma, miami, and of course, las vegas). i was prone to suicidal thoughts myself, before i ever took up any spiritual practise. i believe it is the desperation people carry into their practises, not the practises themselves, that contribute to the suicide.

Most people like to just live their life without a thought and simply die, which is fine but some people are forced into a situation where they have to question their life experience. Most people express this by going into some midlife crisis and getting shitty tattoo's of some hasbeen bands and hanging around young people that don't really want to know them others that penetrate a little deeper get suckered into all the crap out there and to be hoenst I doubt there are many people that actually make it through all the bs, I want to be one of them. I think the reason why is that most people are lazy and don't want to put any real effort into it and just listen to those that give quick fixes.

Whenever you question your mind and your deepest thoughts you are pretty much playing with fire. Psychology is the profession with the highest rate of suicide in the UK. This is amazing how they get paid so much money, live the life and probably have a token wife and mistress to boot but when they try to confront their own mind, they are crushed. It's a slippery slope and when people are thursty for results they eventually decay and fall into the many traps. I think this is due to shit teachers, most can't do it themselves but they think they can write a book on it. Discernment seems to be the real key.