Megaliths

[swethirte]

I wonder how many people here are familiar with megaliths. All over Western Europe there are megalithic strctures dating back many thousands of years, forming one of the earliest known civilisations.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~geneticgenealogy/mega.jpg

[astrochicken]

Ever heard the word "Search"??

Think about it for a second before replying.




By posting a one-liner and an image, which you could have added to hundreds of existing threads on megaliths you may have bumped a thread with a thousand replies or a lot more information on to the 2nd page.


I could do the same and make a new topic and ask:

"Did you know our brain has got 2 hemispheres?" and then a post a picture of a brain.


Please use the search in future.

[jojo]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32852

here is a thread dedicated to all things megalithic.

i love them.

[swethirte]

Ever heard the word "Search"??

Think about it for a second before replying.




By posting a one-liner and an image, which you could have added to hundreds of existing threads on megaliths you may have bumped a thread with a thousand replies or a lot more information on to the 2nd page.


I could do the same and make a new topic and ask:

"Did you know our brain has got 2 hemispheres?" and then a post a picture of a brain.


Please use the search in future.

I was hoping to start a thread talking about the megalithic civilisation. If you had actually done the search yourself that you asked me to do you would find that no other thread matches this.

[phildee3]

I wonder how many people here are familiar with megaliths. All over Western Europe there are megalithic strctures dating back many thousands of years, forming one of the earliest known civilisations.



Where have you been -
living under a rock?? :eek:

Sorry -
couldn't resist!

[phildee3]

I was hoping to start a thread talking about the megalithic civilisation.



There were many megalithic civilizations.

There were also many megaliths erected that were not part of any civilization.

[swethirte]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32852

here is a thread dedicated to all things megalithic.

i love them.

I love them too. They are very special.

[swethirte]

There were many megalithic civilizations.

There were also many megaliths erected that were not part of any civilization.

I was referring to the megalithic civilisation in northern and western Europe, as shown by the map. This was a true civilisation and even, for example, had a standard unit of measurement, called today the megalithic yard.

[phildee3]

I was referring to the megalithic civilisation in northern and western Europe, as shown by the map. This was a true civilisation and even, for example, had a standard unit of measurement, called today the megalithic yard.



Only about 300 sites, surveyed by Alexander Thom, exibited evidence that the megalithic yard was used in their construction. What about the tens of thousands of others?
And even if they all used the M.Y., could it not have been used by different civilizations?

There is sufficient difference between Irish and English megaliths alone to indicate that they were very different cultures.

The Irish "court cairn," for example,
very striking and obviously of great significance to it's own culture,
does not appear anywhere else - even remotely similar!

The map shows areas where megaliths have been found.
That's all.

[swethirte]

Only about 300 sites, surveyed by Alexander Thom, exibited evidence that the megalithic yard was used in their construction. What about the tens of thousands of others?
And even if they all used the M.Y., could it not have been used by different civilizations?

There is sufficient difference between Irish and English megaliths alone to indicate that they were very different cultures.

The Irish "court cairn," for example,
very striking and obviously of great significance to it's own culture,
does not appear anywhere else - even remotely similar!

The map shows areas where megaliths have been found.
That's all.

There were certainly many local variations, but to suggest that it was just a coincidence that adjacent peoples of Europe began building megaliths at the same time seems untenable to me. Further, the spread of the megalithic culture was clearly by water, as the earliest examples are found on the coasts, later heading inland via rivers. And while Alexander Thom may have only examined a few hundred, they were, in effect, random samples from many different areas.

[phildee3]

There were certainly many local variations, but to suggest that it was just a coincidence that adjacent peoples of Europe began building megaliths at the same time seems untenable to me.



I'm not suggesting that.
Of course adjacent cultures would have influenced each other.

But to suggest that the planning came from a civic centre is contrary to the archaeological evidence, which reveals they were tribal societies.

They did not begin building at the same time.
The European megalithic tradition is well over two thousand years long
and spread gradually.



Further, the spread of the megalithic culture was clearly by water, as the earliest examples are found on the coasts,



Then why are the Irish, English and Breton monuments so different from one another?
There are more similarities between monuments seperated by hundreds of miles of land than there is between those seperated by twenty miles of water.

The reason why they are found near the coasts is because the migrants travelling west couldn't go any further and so settled there
(sedentism and megalithism being dependent on one another).

[element]

Swethirthe, are you suggesting the megalith culture came from Atland(/tis)..? Likely..
Would be hard don't you think, for such an advanced culture to play around with mere rocks..? :)

[swethirte]

Swethirthe, are you suggesting the megalith culture came from Atland(/tis)..? Likely..
Would be hard don't you think, for such an advanced culture to play around with mere rocks..? :)

Yes I think the megalithic culture originated on Atland and spread from there. It was certainly an advanced culture, but not in the modern technological sense. By the use of rocks it had learnt how to harness the natural energies of the earth.

[phildee3]

Yes I think the megalithic culture originated on Atland and spread from there. It was certainly an advanced culture,



Now that was a civilization!

It is supposed to have sunk in 2193 BC.

The Irish megalithic tradition begins on the west coast 4700 BC (or earlier) and finishes c. 2500 BC at the Boyne valley. It starts very simple and gradually increases in complexity - but never quite gets to the stage where you could call it a civil society. That doesn't happen until Uisnach/Tara in the late Broze/early iron age, by which time megalithism has long been abandoned.

So, as long as the Atland civilization was three thousand years old,
it's possible that the original megalith-builders in Sligo could have been influenced by it.

However, the archaeology shows that they were very much a tribal society and their monuments quite simple, exhibiting no structural evidence of such influence.

Nor is there any evidence of the type of social stratification that could qualify it as a part of any civilization.

They did not copy the social structure of the ancient Fresians but they could have absorbed some aspects of their spiritual ideology.

Perhaps this is what you're sensing.

[phildee3]

On a much more fundamental level, here's my (more likely) explanation for the advent of megalithism:

Rocks are to be found all over the planet.

On a deep subconscious level, we know that when we (and other animals, - and plants) are lifeless we lie down. When we are full of life (vril) we stand up.

When we see rocks lying down we instictively want to stand them up to "enliven" them, and thus enliven the ecosystem of which they're a part - and thus create more abundance.

Basic biodynamics!

Megalith building happens all over the planet,
and I don't think it comes from advanced civilizations.

They incorporate megalithism, rather than come up with the idea.

[swethirte]

Now that was a civilization!

It is supposed to have sunk in 2193 BC.

The Irish megalithic tradition begins on the west coast 4700 BC (or earlier) and finishes c. 2500 BC at the Boyne valley. It starts very simple and gradually increases in complexity - but never quite gets to the stage where you could call it a civil society. That doesn't happen until Uisnach/Tara in the late Broze/early iron age, by which time megalithism has long been abandoned.

So, as long as the Atland civilization was three thousand years old,
it's possible that the original megalith-builders in Sligo could have been influenced by it.

However, the archaeology shows that they were very much a tribal society and their monuments quite simple, exhibiting no structural evidence of such influence.

Nor is there any evidence of the type of social stratification that could qualify it as a part of any civilization.

They did not copy the social structure of the ancient Fresians but they could have absorbed some aspects of their spiritual ideology.

Perhaps this is what you're sensing.

The Oera Linda Book describes the places that the Frisians had settled before the desctruction of Atland, which corresponds very closely with the extent of the megalithic culture http://frya.angelfire.com/2adela.htm#_Chapter_XXI:_This

Chapter XXI: This stands inscribed upon all burghs.
1. Before the bad time came our land was the most beautiful in the World. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.
2. On one side we were bounded by Wr-alda’s Sea, on which no one but us might or could sail; on the other side we were hedged in by the broad Twiskland, through which Finda’s people dared not come on account of the thick forests and the wild beasts.
3. Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the Aster Sea, and westwards to the Middel Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.
4. The banks of these rivers were at one time entirely inhabited by our people, as well as the banks of the Rene from one end to the other.
5. Opposite Denamark and Juttarland we had colonies and a burgh-femme. Thence we obtained copper and silver, as well as tar and pitch, and some other necessaries.
6. Opposite to us we had Brittania, formerly Westland, with her tin mines.
7. Brittania was the land of the exiles, who with the help of their burgh-femme had gone away to save their lives; but in order that they might not come back they were tattooed with a “B” on the forehead, the banished with a red dye, the other criminals with blue.
8. Moreover, our navigators and merchants had many factories among the Heinde Krekalandar and in Lydia. In Lydia the people are black.
9. As our country was so great and extensive, we had many different names. Those who were settled to the east of Denamark were called Juttar, because often they did nothing else than look for amber on the shore. Those who lived in the islands were called Letne, because they lived an isolated life.
10. All those who lived between Denamark and the Sandfal, now the Skelda, were called Stiurar, Sekampar, and Angelarar. The Angelarar were men who fished in the sea, and were so named because they used lines and hooks instead of nets.
11. From there to Heinde Krekaland the inhabitants were called Kadhemar, because they never went to sea but remained ashore.
12. Those who were settled in the higher marches bounded by Twiskland were called Saxmannar, because they were always armed against the wild beasts and the savage Britne.
13. Besides these we had the names Landsaton, Marsatar, and Holt- or Wodsatar.

[swethirte]

On a much more fundamental level, here's my (more likely) explanation for the advent of megalithism:

Rocks are to be found all over the planet.

On a deep subconscious level, we know that when we (and other animals, - and plants) are lifeless we lie down. When we are full of life (vril) we stand up.

When we see rocks lying down we instictively want to stand them up to "enliven" them, and thus enliven the ecosystem of which they're a part - and thus create more abundance.

Basic biodynamics!

Megalith building happens all over the planet,
and I don't think it comes from advanced civilizations.

They incorporate megalithism, rather than come up with the idea.

I've heard it said that piercing the earth with rocks has the same effect as piercing the body with needles in acupuncture.

[phildee3]

I've heard it said that piercing the earth with rocks has the same effect as piercing the body with needles in acupuncture.

That was Tom Graves, "Needles of Stone," 1978.

You can download the whole thing for free at:
http://www.isleofavalon.co.uk/GlastonburyArchive/ndlstone/00contnt.html

[phildee3]

The Oera Linda Book describes the places that the Frisians had settled before the desctruction of Atland, which corresponds very closely with the extent of the megalithic culture



Sorry, megaliths can be found all over the world.

[swethirte]

That was Tom Graves, "Needles of Stone," 1978.

You can download the whole thing for free at:
http://www.isleofavalon.co.uk/GlastonburyArchive/ndlstone/00contnt.html

Thank you, looks interesting.

[swethirte]

Sorry, megaliths can be found all over the world.

I'm just talking about the European megalithic culture.

[phildee3]

I'm just talking about the European megalithic culture.



In other words, just the area that the book describes.

Handy, that!

[swethirte]

In other words, just the area that the book describes.

Handy, that!

The European megalithic culture is not conected with that of the Far East, or any of the others.

[phildee3]

The European megalithic culture is not conected with that of the Far East, or any of the others.



The megaliths in Ireland are more like the ones in Malekula (South Pacific) they are to the ones in Brittany.

There is no, one "European megalithic culture."
There are many megalithic cultures in Europe, all clearly defined.

[swethirte]

The megaliths in Ireland are more like the ones in Malekula (South Pacific) they are to the ones in Brittany.

There is no, one "European megalithic culture."
There are many.

You appear to be saying that the Irish megaliths have no more connection with those of, say, Britain than they have with those of the South Pacific. I cannot accept such a view. Whether you say it's a culture, or a group of cultures (which is surely only a question of how you define a "culture"), the European ones are connected to each other in a way that they aren't with those of other areas.

[phildee3]

the European ones are connected to each other in a way that they aren't with those of other areas.



In what way is that?

[swethirte]

In what way is that?

That they're part of the same culture, or, of you like, group of related cultures. Are you really trying to suggest that they all came about independently, with no connection to what their neighbours also happened to be doing?

[phildee3]

That they're part of the same culture, or, of you like, group of related cultures. Are you really trying to suggest that they all came about independently, with no connection to what their neighbours also happened to be doing?



No, of course not.
I think we've already been there.

But why are you ignoring the neighbours to the east - just because they're not in the area defined in the Oera Linda?

Menorca, Italy, Sicily, Corsica, Sardinia, Malta, Greece, Crete, etc. etc. contiguous all the way to Malekula.

It seems like you've drawn an arbitrary line from Berlin to Menorca with everything west of it "European."
Why are the Italian meagaliths not a part of the "European megalithic culture or group of cultures"?

[swethirte]

No, of course not.
I think we've already been there.

But why are you ignoring the neighbours to the east - just because they're not in the area defined in the Oera Linda?

Menorca, Italy, Sicily, Corsica, Sardinia, Malta, Greece, Crete, etc. etc. contiguous all the way to Malekula.

It seems like you've drawn an arbitrary line from Berlin to Menorca with everything west of it "European."
Why are the Italian meagaliths not a part of the "European megalithic culture or group of cultures"?

I do regard all the Mediterranean megaliths as part of the European megalithic culture. But I don't see how you can have a contiguous group of megaliths all the way from Crete to the South Pacific.

[phildee3]

I do regard all the Mediterranean megaliths as part of the European megalithic culture.



and Turkey?
and the middle east?

keep going...

Iran, Afghanistan, China, Phillipines, Indonesia.

Where do you want to draw the line?

[element]

Where do you want to draw the line?

Nowhere, all things are eventually connected.
The Frisians are connected to the Zulu's aswell.

[swethirte]

Nowhere, all things are eventually connected.
The Frisians are connected to the Zulu's aswell.

The Oera Linda Book describes a Frisian colony in the Punjab that existed for over a thousand years until the time of Alexander the Great. So I would certainly expect similarities there, for example.

[phildee3]

The Oera Linda Book describes a Frisian colony in the Punjab that existed for over a thousand years until the time of Alexander the Great. So I would certainly expect similarities there, for example.



But we also find similarities where there were no Fresian colonies.

[element]

My view is that the frisians were simply vikings, looking for adventure down south.

The Oera Linda Book describes a Frisian colony in the Punjab
Could you show us a passage of the book describing that?

[swethirte]

My view is that the frisians were simply vikings, looking for adventure down south.


Could you show us a passage of the book describing that?

This describes the initial settlement http://frya.angelfire.com/2adela.htm#_Chapter_XXIX:_This

And this describes the return of the colony to Frisia http://frya.angelfire.com/4frethorik.htm#II

[lumukanda]

Nowhere, all things are eventually connected.
The Frisians are connected to the Zulu's aswell.

hey, you got any links to that? i've heard of celtic/zulu connections, and egyptian/sotho connections but never a frisian one.

any info you may have would be much appreciated, i'm looking into all the ancient visitors to southern africa.

talking of megalithic sites, don't overlook adam's calendar in south africa which may have been built a mediterranean seafaring culture.

[phildee3]

[The Irish meagalith builders] did not copy the social structure of the ancient Fresians but they could have absorbed some aspects of their spiritual ideology.

Perhaps this is what you're sensing.



I was being generous here, but you didn't grab the ball.

If you click back to where I wrote this you will see an overwhelming case for the reverse being true.

There is much confusion, among scholars, between the ancient Fresians and the ancient Celts.
They have alot in common and may be one and the same (seperated only by time).

We know that the Celts were attracted TO the already existing megaliths in Ireland, Brittany and SW England.

Could this have been a CONTINUANCE of Fresian pilgrimage to the place of their spiritual origins?

I think so.

[swethirte]

I was being generous here, but you didn't grab the ball.

If you click back to where I wrote this you will see an overwhelming case for the reverse being true.

There is much confusion, among scholars, between the ancient Fresians and the ancient Celts.
They have alot in common and may be one and the same (seperated only by time).

We know that the Celts were attracted TO the already existing megaliths in Ireland, Brittany and SW England.

Could this have been a CONTINUANCE of Fresian pilgrimage to the place of their spiritual origins?

I think so.

The Celts were originally Frisians, and only branched off around 1631 BC under Kalta, who led a revolt against the Folk Mother with Phoenician support http://frya.angelfire.com/2adela.htm#XXVI

[phildee3]

The Celts were originally Frisians, and only branched off around 1631 BC



That fits with my claim perfectly.

I reckon that they took druidism, which has it's roots in ancient Fresian spirituality, to Ireland.

[swethirte]

That fits with my claim perfectly.

We're talking about a time when the Germanic and Celtic languages had not yet divided, and these incidents are the cause of that division.

[lumukanda]

you learn something new everyday.

[phildee3]

We're talking about a time when the Germanic and Celtic languages had not yet divided, and these incidents are the cause of that division.



okay.

After the division there was about a thousand years during which the Celt's Indo-Euopean language developed with it's Sanskrit influences, while the Fresians began to assimilate the Nordic/runic.
However, the Atlandic spiritual roots remained deep within both groups and was brought to Ireland as Druidism c. 700-600 BC.

How does that sound?

[swethirte]

okay.

After the division there was about a thousand years during which the Celt's Indo-Euopean language developed with it's Sanskrit influences, while the Fresians began to assimilate the Nordic/runic.
However, the Atlandic spiritual roots remained deep within both groups and was brought to Ireland as Druidism c. 700-600 BC.

How does that sound?

Runes are descended from the Frisian alphabet http://frya.angelfire.com/2adela.htm#_Chapter_XX:_What

The Nordic culture is descended from the Frisian settlements in Scandinavia, which were conquered by Finns in 2013 BC and thereafter had a Finnish ruling class http://frya.angelfire.com/2adela.htm#_Chapter_XXIII:_This

The Druids too are mentioned by the Oera Linda Book, under the name Trowydar, the Phoenician allies of Kalta in her revolt of 1631 BC http://frya.angelfire.com/2adela.htm#_Chapter_XXV:_What

[astrochicken]

Just noting the similarities.

"Runes are descended from the Frisian alphabet"

http://f.imagehost.org/0366/image001.jpg
http://g.imagehost.org/0208/image002.jpg

and here's the Hebrew Alphabet (Aleph Bais) descended from the magan star.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q143/TorahJudaismAndIsrael/1aleph-tetinMagenDavid.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q143/TorahJudaismAndIsrael/2youd-tzadiinMagenDavid.jpg
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q143/TorahJudaismAndIsrael/3kooftonoonsofitinMagenDavid.jpg


Both depicting a 2 dimensional view of this

http://www.crystalinks.com/movmerkaba.gif

[swethirte]

The same shape was used by Guido Von List when he devised his Armanen runes around 1902.

http://foto.rambler.ru/public/d/a/darbi2006/16/armanen/armanen-web.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/odinistlibrary/OLArticles/Articles/hagal-hp.jpg

[phildee3]

Runes are descended from the Frisian alphabet...

The Nordic culture is descended from the Frisian settlements in Scandinavia, which were conquered by Finns in 2013 BC



If you used "Aldlandic" in place of "Frisian" above, I could see it.

Frisia, however is not that old.

It seems to me like it is a nation that was created by the survivors of the destroyed Aldlandic civilisation.

The earliest form of the runes, in the archaeologcal record, are in Sweden.


One question:

A civilization, by definition, has a civic centre - a great city which houses the upper eschalons of a stratified society.

Where was this city in Atland, and by what name is it called?

[swethirte]

If you used "Aldlandic" in place of "Frisian" above, I could see it.

Frisia, however is not that old.

It seems to me like it is a nation that was created by the survivors of the destroyed Aldlandic civilisation.

The earliest form of the runes, in the archaeologcal record, are in Sweden.


One question:

A civilization, by definition, has a civic centre - a great city which houses the upper eschalons of a stratified society.

Where was this city in Atland, and by what name is it called?

The Oera Linda Book is silent on this particular question, though it's known from archaeological investigations conducted by Jurgen Spanuth that there was a significant settlement on what is now the seabed near Heligoland. However, a close reading of the book implies, I believe, that the chief city, or burch, was probably the very same place that Frya gave her Tex, or laws to her people in 2194 BC, which afterwards became known as Fryasburch, on what is now the island of Texel. In other words, it was a fragment of Atland that survived.

[phildee3]

The Oera Linda Book is silent on this particular question, though it's known from archaeological investigations conducted by Jurgen Spanuth that there was a significant settlement on what is now the seabed near Heligoland. However, a close reading of the book implies, I believe, that the chief city, or burch, was probably the very same place that Frya gave her Tex, or laws to her people in 2194 BC, which afterwards became known as Fryasburch, on what is now the island of Texel. In other words, it was a fragment of Atland that survived.

Thank you, again.
Does the Oera Linda Book say anything that indicates that megalithism per se originated at Atland, or is this your own idea (or someone else's)?

This is the one thing that I am in disagreement with.

[phildee3]

Swethirthe, are you suggesting the megalith culture came from Atland(/tis)..?
Would be hard don't you think, for such an advanced culture to play around with mere rocks..? :)

Exactly.
Dr. Burenhult (the Swedish excavations at Carrowmore, Co. Sligo) shows that megalithism is not even an agriculturalist phenomenon, let alone the product of an advanced civilisation. It begins when hunter-gatherers become sedentary - which they are able to do on the coasts where they can fish year-round.

Atlantian megalithism is much different. They could terraform, - raising great rocks from the ground which we call "natural" (although unexplainable by geologists!).

3691

[swethirte]

Thank you, again.
Does the Oera Linda Book say anything that indicates that megalithism per se originated at Atland, or is this your own idea (or someone else's)?

This is the one thing that I am in disagreement with.

It doesn't say it, this is my own deduction based on the fact that the European megalithic culture occupied the same area of Europe that the colonists from Atland occupied according to the Oera Linda Book, at the same time.

[phildee3]

It doesn't say it, this is my own deduction based on the fact that the European megalithic culture occupied the same area of Europe that the colonists from Atland occupied according to the Oera Linda Book, at the same time.



How old was the civilization at the time it disappeared?

[swethirte]

How old was the civilization at the time it disappeared?

The Oera Linda Book doesn't tell us how long the civilisation of Atland had been in existence for, though it implies a very long period. The first absolute date is 2194 BC, when Atland was submerged. From that time onwards Frisian civilisation in Europe very gradually contacted, starting off occupying the large area described, and ending up with a very small territory.

[phildee3]

From that time onwards Frisian civilisation in Europe very gradually contacted, starting off occupying the large area described, and ending up with a very small territory.



Don't you mean Atlandian civilisation contracted ending up with a small territory named Frisia?

[swethirte]

Don't you mean Atlandian civilisation contracted ending up with a small territory named Frisia?

In effect, yes. But the name "Frisians" was used before the term "Frisia", and is derived from Frya herself. It would appear, in fact, that the term "Frisian", or "Frya's Children", was first used 49 years after the destruction of Atland, that is in 2145 BC http://frya.angelfire.com/2adela.htm#II

[phildee3]

In effect, yes. But the name "Frisians" was used before the term "Frisia", and is derived from Frya herself. It would appear, in fact, that the term "Frisian", or "Frya's Children", was first used 49 years after the destruction of Atland, that is in 2145 BC http://frya.angelfire.com/2adela.htm#II



Okay, thanks for the clarification.
To avoid this confusion, wouldn't it be a good idea to disinguish between them by using "proto-Frisian," "ancient Frisian" or "original Frisian."
and "modern Frisian" or "Frisian nationals"?

[swethirte]

Okay, thanks for the clarification.
To avoid this confusion, wouldn't it be a good idea to disinguish between them by using "proto-Frisian," "ancient Frisian" or "original Frisian."
and "modern Frisian" or "Frisian nationals"?

Yes that's fine, as long as we remember that such terminology is modern, and that the Oera Linda Book makes no such distinction.

[phildee3]

Exactly.
Dr. Burenhult (the Swedish excavations at Carrowmore, Co. Sligo) shows that megalithism is not even an agriculturalist phenomenon, let alone the product of an advanced civilisation. It begins when hunter-gatherers become sedentary - which they are able to do on the coasts where they can fish year-round.

Atlantian megalithism is much different. They could terraform, - raising great rocks from the ground which we call "natural" (although unexplainable by geologists!).

3691

Back to the topic -
I'm surprised that you've not commented on the Externsteine.

Have you been there?
It must be a massive pilgrimage for you.
I took this picture last summer.

It is aligned on the winter solstice sunrise, which suggests to me that the ancient Frisians may have influenced the Irish megalith-builders to align Newgrange the way that they did.
They may also have shown the Avebury culture how to build their astronomical temple - Stonehenge.

The dates fit.

[jojo]

this is a most fascinating read. :) keep up the good work.

[jojo]

Exactly.

3691


wow! where is that! are you saying that this was terraformed too? it looks a magical spot thats for sure!

[phildee3]

wow! where is that! are you saying that this was terraformed too? it looks a magical spot thats for sure!



jojo!!!
I wondered when you'd show up.

That's the Externsteine
and I'm totally gobsmacked that it's new to you!

Research it, and get over there this summer!!!

[jojo]

jojo!!!
I wondered when you'd show up.

That's the Externsteine
and I'm totally gobsmacked that it's new to you!

Research it, and get over there this summer!!!

:) yes, its new to me. it look amasing though! i gotta go visit there!

if you can suggest anymore places to visit of this ilk (and megalithic sites) could you post them on the other megalithic thread please (if you have the time :))

Im enjoying reading both your informed posts. i only really know what i know about some british mainland sites from going there and feeling the place. unfortunatly, i dont know facts or figures about them so cant comment on this thread other than to say, its fascinating reading. :)

[phildee3]

That's the Externsteine
and I'm totally gobsmacked that it's new to you!



This is the ritual rebirthing chamber (see if you can spot it on the other pic.).

Between it and the artificial caves above is the dragon's tail.

3694

[element]

The Oera Linda Book doesn't tell us how long the civilisation of Atland had been in existence for, though it implies a very long period. The first absolute date is 2194 BC, when Atland was submerged. From that time onwards Frisian civilisation in Europe very gradually contacted, starting off occupying the large area described, and ending up with a very small territory.
That doesn't really surprise me. There's lots of ''evidence'' of Atlantis, yet never in detail. Plato is the only good source.
Do you have evidence of sea structures near Heligoland..? (pictures)

edit: nice picture phil.

[jojo]

This is the ritual rebirthing chamber (see if you can spot it on the other pic.).

Between it and the artificial caves above is the dragon's tail.

3694

wow! i can see it alright. what a place! i get a energetic vibe from looking at the pictures alone! do you think that this place was teraformed then?

[phildee3]

wow! i can see it alright. what a place! i get a energetic vibe from looking at the pictures alone! do you think that this place was teraformed then?



I do.

[phildee3]

There's lots of ''evidence'' of Atlantis, yet never in detail. Plato is the only good source.



He's the original.

Check out what Rudolf Steiner has to say about it.

I think it was him who said it didn't sink, but ascended.

[jojo]

I do.

nods. well, i can understand what your saying. the photos do emit a powerful energy that out of the ordinary.

[phildee3]

The ancient Frisian obelisk -
symbol of fertility, balance and power -
believed to have once stood on, or by, the Externsteine and destroyed by Charlemagne.

3695

[phildee3]

nods. well, i can understand what your saying. the photos do emit a powerful energy that out of the ordinary.



Not a patch on what it's like to actually be there!

Time has a totally different quality.

[jojo]

The ancient Frisian obelisk -
symbol of fertility, balance and power -
believed to have once stood on, or by, the Externsteine and destroyed by Charlemagne.

3695

wow, looks like felopian tubes and uterous or penis.

[swethirte]

Back to the topic -
I'm surprised that you've not commented on the Externsteine.

Have you been there?
It must be a massive pilgrimage for you.
I took this picture last summer.

It is aligned on the winter solstice sunrise, which suggests to me that the ancient Frisians may have influenced the Irish megalith-builders to align Newgrange the way that they did.
They may also have shown the Avebury culture how to build their astronomical temple - Stonehenge.

The dates fit.

I've never been there, but I would certainly like to go. The winter solstice, of course, was a very important date for the Frisians, the festival of jol, or yule (wheel).

[phildee3]

wow, looks like felopian tubes and uterous or penis.



Freya's fallopian tubes, perhaps?

How many children did she have, swethirte,
and who were they?

[swethirte]

That doesn't really surprise me. There's lots of ''evidence'' of Atlantis, yet never in detail. Plato is the only good source.
Do you have evidence of sea structures near Heligoland..? (pictures)

edit: nice picture phil.

I can't find any photos online, though there are some of what look like the foundations of buildings in Jurgen Spanuth's book Atlantis of the North. I did find this map which is from the book though.

http://www.efodon.de/html/archiv/vorgeschichte/bischoff/atlantis2.gif

[swethirte]

Freya's fallopian tubes, perhaps?

How many children did she have, swethirte,
and who were they?

According to the Oera Linda Book, Frya, though a virgin, gave birth to 12 sons and 12 daughters, and these were the ancestors of the Frisians. The original 24 children are not named though.

http://frya.angelfire.com/2adela.htm#II

[phildee3]

According to the Oera Linda Book, Frya, though a virgin, gave birth to 12 sons and 12 daughters,



The twenty-four elders, in white, around the throne visualised in Revelation...
I always knew they were twelve couples!

St. Brighid, whose father was a Druid, strictly founded her monastery in Kildare with an equal number of men and women.

Balance...

[swethirte]

The twenty-four elders, in white, around the throne visualised in Revelation...
I always knew they were twelve couples!

I don't know, I'm not an expert on the Bible.

[phildee3]

I don't know, I'm not an expert on the Bible.



I wasn't asking, I was saying.
My background is Celtic Christianity and I correlate new testament texts with other sacred texts such as yours - which, to me, appears authentic despite the commonly accepted notion that it's a hoax.

[swethirte]

I wasn't asking, I was saying.
My background is Celtic Christianity and I correlate new testament texts with other sacred texts such as yours - which, to me, appears authentic despite the commonly accepted notion that it's a hoax.

I think the authenticity of a text, such as the Oera linda Book, can only really be determined by intuition. What I know is that it works.

[phildee3]

According to the Oera Linda Book, Frya, though a virgin, gave birth to 12 sons and 12 daughters,





The twenty-four elders, in white, around the throne...



The sons of Frya are the twelve apostles.
The daughters of Frya are their consorts.

Brighde is the eternal flame at the centre of their circle.
The pivot between all polarities.

www.bridesmound.com

[phildee3]

The ancient Frisian obelisk -
symbol of fertility, balance and power -
believed to have once stood on, or by, the Externsteine and destroyed by Charlemagne.

3695

Icons of Celtic bishops are often depicted holding an irminsul crozier:

3700

It is still used today in the orthodox church.

[phildee3]

Another irminsul is believed to have stood here, at the gate to Fulda.
It too was destroyed by Charlemagne, who genocided the entire community of Celtic Christians.
But he only managed to destroy their bodies. Their spirit is still very present there and this beautiful town is well worth a visit when you're in the area.

3701

[swethirte]

The sons of Frya are the twelve apostles.
The daughters of Frya are their consorts.

Brighde is the eternal flame at the centre of their circle.
The pivot between all polarities.

www.bridesmound.com

Some interesting parallels there, which certainly indicates that the Celts had retained much Frisian lore.

I known Glastonbury quite well by the way.

[phildee3]

Some interesting parallels there, which certainly indicates that the Celts had retained much Frisian lore.



Well, they retained the very essence of the spirituality.
Rebellions, after all, are only political.
At the heart of the ancient Fresian culture was an indivisible core.

Even Charlemagne could not destroy it - but only suppress it.
Now it is returning!

[swethirte]

Well, they retained the very essence of the spirituality.
Rebellions, after all, are only political.
At the heart of the ancient Fresian culture was an indivisible core.

Even Charlemagne could not destroy it - but only suppress it.
Now it is returning!

Yes, it most certainly is returning!

[phildee3]

This is the altar of the temple which was carved, high up, into one of the rocks.
Charlemagne destroyed the roof and wall on the right.

Looking to the left of the altar you can see where the Irminsul would have stood if it was elevated, as some think it was because of the platform.

3704

3705

[phildee3]

This is the ritual rebirthing chamber (see if you can spot it on the other pic.).

Between it and the artificial caves above is the dragon's tail.

3694

Actually, the "artificial cave" is an earlier temple!

The first picture is the inner sanctum and the second, the ante-chamber

(you can match the iron bars in the attachment pic above).

3706

3707

[swethirte]

Notice how what has been called the Michael Ley Line also goes right through the site of Atland, in addition to Avebury and Glastonbury. This system of ley lines across Western Europe was clearly laid down for a reason.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer_anunnaki/reptiles/images/reptiles29a_24.jpg

[phildee3]

Notice how what has been called the Michael Ley Line also goes right through the site of Atland, in addition to Avebury and Glastonbury. This system of ley lines across Western Europe was clearly laid down for a reason.



I hate to burst your bubble, but Atland is a large area, not a site.

Watkins was quite clear that areas don't count, nor do approximations.

Now if it runs through a significant Frisian site, you have something.

[swethirte]

I hate to burst your bubble, but Atland is a large area, not a site.

Watkins was quite clear that areas don't count, nor do approximations.

Now if it runs through a significant Frisian site, you have something.

A site is merely the location of something, large or small. Atland was located in the southern part of the North Sea, and the ley line runs right across its territory, from one side to the other. I'm not trying to define the ley line, because it is already known to exist, so Watkins' criteria are not relevant here. Interestingly though, the place where the circle crosses the line appears to be pretty close to Heligoland, and Jurgen Spanuth's underwater city.

[jojo]

this thread is fascinating and resinating with me somehow. what further reading would you both reccomend?

[swethirte]

this thread is fascinating and resinating with me somehow. what further reading would you both reccomend?

The Oera Linda Book, which can be found on our website linked below.

[jojo]

thanks

[phildee3]

this thread is fascinating and resinating with me somehow. what further reading would you both reccomend?



You are a reader of energies, and landscapes.
I recommend that you go to the Externsteine and read it in the Akashic records! :)

[jojo]

You are a reader of energies, and landscapes.
I recommend that you go to the Externsteine and read it in the Akashic records! :)

yep, im looking into going on a long weekend there this summer. the photos have intrigued me.

[phildee3]

yep, im looking into going on a long weekend there this summer. the photos have intrigued me.



Camping at the site is permitted as long as you pack up your tent before the tourists arrive (9,00 am, I think) and overnight parking nearby is permitted (one or two euros). Sleeping in vehicles is ok.

The only part they lock at night is access to climb the rocks - for safety reasons.

There is a summer solstice gathering there every year.

[jojo]

Camping at the site is permitted as long as you pack up your tent before the tourists arrive (9,00 am, I think) and overnight parking nearby is permitted (one or two euros). Sleeping in vehicles is ok.

The only part they lock at night is access to climb the rocks - for safety reasons.

There is a summer solstice gathering there every year.


thanks for that phill. i like being in these places at night. gives one a whole new feel for the place. Although, i would like to visit at a time when the least amount of people will be there, so i dont get confused and pick up on their energys.

I spent the last summer solsice in a cave high above a valley floor for this reason. so i could be as alone as i could be with the earth energys. although i love solstices at stone circles, i find they can attract people i would rather not be around (without sounding too rude :)) at a most spiritual time.

[phildee3]

although i love solstices at stone circles, i find they can attract people i would rather not be around



There are alot of bigoted, disrespectful wankers among the English lot.
In Germany they are alot more focussed.
You'll find a handful of others at the Externsteine at night but they are there for the same reason that we go there - to be a part of the sacredness - very chilled.

It's not too good between 9.00am and 5.00pm though (too many tourists with no bloody idea!)

[jojo]

There are alot of bigoted, disrespectful wankers among the English lot.
In Germany they are alot more focussed.
You'll find a handful of others at the Externsteine at night but they are there for the same reason that we go there - to be a part of the sacredness - very chilled.

It's not too good between 9.00am and 5.00pm though (too many tourists with no bloody idea!)


thanks phil. :)

[swethirte]

thanks for that phill. i like being in these places at night. gives one a whole new feel for the place. Although, i would like to visit at a time when the least amount of people will be there, so i dont get confused and pick up on their energys.

I spent the last summer solsice in a cave high above a valley floor for this reason. so i could be as alone as i could be with the earth energys. although i love solstices at stone circles, i find they can attract people i would rather not be around (without sounding too rude :)) at a most spiritual time.

I always find that the winter solstice is much better for visiting such places. Far fewer tourists around.

[phildee3]

I always find that the winter solstice is much better for visiting such places.



The megalith builders thought so too!
There are far more aligned on the WS than the SS,
at least in my experience.

There are many cross-quarter alignments in Ireland too.
Do they have any place in the ancient Frisian cosmology?

[swethirte]

The megalith builders thought so too!
There are far more aligned on the WS than the SS,
at least in my experience.

There are many cross-quarter alignments in Ireland too.
Do they have any place in the ancient Frisian cosmology?

The most sacred symbol of the Frisians was the six-spoked wheel, or kroder, and the year was divided up similarly into six points, with the winter solstice, or Jolferste (yule festival) being the most important. Expressed on the modern calendar these dates were approximately 21 December (Jolferste), 20 February (Irthaferste), 22 April (Minnaferste), 22 June (Ewaferste), 22 August (Heligeferste) and 22 October (Blodferste).

[phildee3]

The most sacred symbol of the Frisians was the six-spoked wheel, or kroder, and the year was divided up similarly into six points, with the winter solstice, or Jolferste (yule festival) being the most important. Expressed on the modern calendar these dates were approximately 21 December (Jolferste), 20 February (Irthaferste), 22 April (Minnaferste), 22 June (Ewaferste), 22 August (Heligeferste) and 22 October (Blodferste).



If megalithism spread westward from Atland, then wouldn't the Irish megaliths demonstrate this six-fold pattern rather than an eight-fold one?

It would seem more likely that the Celts got their eight-fold year from the Irish, rather than abandon the six-fold one in it's favour before settling there.

More evidence for eastward diffusion?

[swethirte]

If megalithism spread westward from Atland, then wouldn't the Irish megaliths demonstrate this six-fold pattern rather than an eight-fold one?

It would seem more likely that the Celts got their eight-fold year from the Irish, rather than abandon the six-fold one in it's favour before settling there.

More evidence for eastward diffusion?

Perhaps the Celts received the eight-fold pattern from Phoenician influences.

[phildee3]

Perhaps the Celts received the eight-fold pattern from Phoenician influences.



Possibly,

but the irish megaliths demonstrate cross-quarter alignments much earlier than the Phoenician civilization.

Did the Phoenicians have an eight-fold year?

[swethirte]

Possibly,

but the irish megaliths demonstrate cross-quarter alignments much earlier than the Phoenician civilization.

Did the Phoenicians have an eight-fold year?

Not certain about the Phoenicians, but the Hebrews recognised the solstices and equinoxes, which they used to regulate their lunar calendar.

When do the Irish alignments date to?

[amercury]

This is a fascinating and educational thread.
Thanks! :)

[phildee3]

When do the Irish alignments date to?



Most notably around 3500 BC (at Loughcrew and Tara).

[swethirte]

Most notably around 3500 BC (at Loughcrew and Tara).

In that case they certainly predate the destruction of Atland. Perhaps, then, the eight-fold and six-fold divisions evolved independently.

[phildee3]

In that case they certainly predate the destruction of Atland. Perhaps, then, the eight-fold and six-fold divisions evolved independently.



It's looking like it -
and hence megalithism too. Sorry.
However this is the only point on which we have disagreed.
I have much respect for everything else you've posted.
Thanks.

[swethirte]

It's looking like it. Sorry.
Megalithism too.
However this is the only point on which we have disagreed.
I have much respect for everything else you've posted.
Thanks.

I don't think it follows that megalithism, especially in adjacent territories, evolved independently. Rather that local variations evolved over time.

[phildee3]

I don't think it follows that megalithism, especially in adjacent territories, evolved independently. Rather that local variations evolved over time.




Boy, are you stubborn!!
You have absolutely nothing to support your idea that megalithism begins with the ancient Frisians, and all the evidence points to an eastward diffusion from the Altlantic coast, yet you insist on this one strange notion.

Neolithic tribespeople did not need explorers from an advanced civilization to give them the idea to stand stones upright!

[swethirte]

Boy, are you stubborn!!
You have absolutely nothing to support your idea that megalithism begins with the ancient Frisians, and all the evidence points to an eastward diffusion from the Altlantic coast, yet you insist on this one strange notion.

Neolithic tribespeople did not need explorers from an advanced civilization to give them the idea to stand stones upright!

The diffusion is certainly from the coast (both west and north coasts of Europe), but to me that indicates that it was done by seafearers, which the Frisians most certainly were, and famously so.

[phildee3]

The diffusion is certainly from the coast (both west and north coasts of Europe), but to me that indicates that it was done by seafearers, which the Frisians most certainly were, and famously so.



In the late mesolithic, hunter-gatherers had to be nomadic because no inland area could support them year round.
Nomadic peoples do not erect megaliths, only sedentary, year round settlers do.
The coast was the only place that could support a sedentary, mesolithic population.

[swethirte]

In the late mesolithic, hunter-gatherers had to be nomadic because no inland area could support them year round.
Nomadic peoples do not erect megaliths, only sedentary, year round settlers do.
The coast was the only place that could support a sedentary, mesolithic population.

Do the megaliths date from mesolithic times? I thought they were a phenomenon of the neolithic and later of the bronze age.

[phildee3]

Do the megaliths date from mesolithic times? I thought they were a phenomenon of the neolithic and later of the bronze age.



Most people do,
and since the mesolithic/neolithic horizon is defined by the advent of farming, which allows sendentism, that's when they normally appear.
At Carrowmore, however, Goren Burenhult, was able to conclusively date the early megaliths to the late mesolithic - before farming appears anywhere in Ireland.
I think he did the same in Portugal, but I'm not sure
(I know the construction dates are even earlier but don't know when farming begins there).

The conclusion is that sedentism spawns megalithism, not farming.

[swethirte]

Most people do,
and since the mesolithic/neolithic horizon is defined by the advent of farming, which allows sendentism, that's when they normally appear.
At Carrowmore, however, Goren Burenhult, was able to conclusively date the early megaliths to the late mesolithic - before farming appears anywhere in Ireland.
I think he did the same in Portugal, but I'm not sure
(I know the construction dates are even earlier but don't know when farming begins there).

The conclusion is that sedentism spawns megalithism, not farming.

There are certainly a couple of late mesolithic dates, but these are so rare that they could have been misinterpreted. Or even if correct, it's still the case that megalithism is, to all intents and purposes, a phenomenon of the neolithic.

[phildee3]

There are certainly a couple of late mesolithic dates, but these are so rare that they could have been misinterpreted.



Burenhult got many of them and they have been accepted by the ultra-conservative Irish archaologists who were very reluctant to have a foreigner on their patch, to boot!



Or even if correct, it's still the case that megalithism is, to all intents and purposes, a phenomenon of the neolithic.



Not to the intents and purposes of the late-mesolithic Carrowmore culture!

[phildee3]

The diffusion is certainly from the coast (both west and north coasts of Europe), but to me that indicates that it was done by seafearers, which the Frisians most certainly were, and famously so.



Take another look at your sacred texts where this occurs.
Could this not be interpreted as ships from the sky?

That's what happens in the Irish mythology.
The tall, slim, blond-haired, blue-eyed Tuatha dé Danann land in the mountains.
They bring with them an infinitely abundant food and the knowledge of healing the wounded and bringing the dead back to life overnight.

Sounds like vril to me,
...and Atlandians!

Many coastal cultures were great seafarers.
Nothing remarkable about that!

[swethirte]

Take another look at your sacred texts where this occurs.
Could this not be interpreted as ships from the sky?

That's what happens in the Irish mythology.
The tall, slim, blond-haired, blue-eyed Tuatha dé Danann land in the mountains.
They bring with them an infinitely abundant food and the knowledge of healing the wounded and bringing the dead back to life overnight.

Sounds like vril to me,
...and Atlandians!

Many coastal cultures were great seafarers.
Nothing remarkable about that!

Certainly an interesting idea. It reminds me of the Indian vimanas. As for the Tuatha de Danann being Frisians, yes that sounds very likely to me.

[swethirte]

According to Irish traditions, the Tuatha de Danann came to Ireland in either 1477 BC or 1897 BC, depending on the source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_High_Kings_of_Ireland

Taking a median date, this appears to correlate to the revolt of Kalta in 1631 BC.

[phildee3]

According to Irish traditions, the Tuatha de Danann came to Ireland in either 1477 BC or 1897 BC, depending on the source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_High_Kings_of_Ireland

Taking a median date, this appears to correlate to the revolt of Kalta in 1631 BC.



Yes, but it took another one thousand years for them to arrive
so the TDD would have been the non-rebels.

[swethirte]

Yes, but it took another one thousand years for them to arrive
so the TDD would have been the non-rebels.

The Celts, or followers of Kalta, are indeed far more likely to be the Milesians, whose conquest of Ireland is given as either 1287 BC or 1700 BC.

So who are the Fir Bolg then? Presumably those who lived in Ireland before the arrival of the Frisians/Tuatha de Danann?

[phildee3]

The Celts, or followers of Kalta, are indeed far more likely to be the Milesians, whose conquest of Ireland is given as either 1287 BC or 1700 BC.



No. They came from Spain.
The Celtoi arrive around 600BC.



So who are the Fir Bolg then? Presumably those who lived in Ireland before the arrival of the Frisians/Tuatha de Danann?



Correct.

[swethirte]

No. They came from Spain.
The Celtoi arrive around 600BC.



Correct.

The original area under the control of Kalta after her revolt in 1631 BC included Spain and Gaul south of the River Seine, though Britain was not taken by them until an unspecified amount of time later.

[phildee3]

The original area under the control of Kalta after her revolt in 1631 BC included Spain and Gaul south of the River Seine, though Britain was not taken by them until an unspecified amount of time later.



Interesting.
It sounds like the Milesians, then, were the indiginous people of Iberia under the control of the proto-Celts.
The Celtoi clearly brought the La Tene/post Hallstatt culture to Ireland c. 600BC. from further east.

[swethirte]

Interesting.
It sounds like the Milesians, then, were the indiginous people of Iberia under the control of the proto-Celts.
The Celtoi clearly brought the La Tene/post Hallstatt culture to Ireland c. 600BC. from further east.

Yes, that's certainly possible. Kalta ruled a vast territory.

[phildee3]

Yes, that's certainly possible. Kalta ruled a vast territory.



...but from the Danube region, yes?

[swethirte]

...but from the Danube region, yes?

The Danube isn't mentioned as such, though it is stated that Kalta took control of all Frisian territory south of the River Seine.

11. The news flew through the land like lightning, and before the carrier had made one revolution of the yule she was mistress of all the Thyriar in all our southern states as far as the Seiene. She built herself a burgh in Berchland to the north, and called it Kaltasburch. It still exists under the name of Kerenak. From this burgh she ruled as a tyrannical folk-mother, against their will, not for her followers, but over them, who were thenceforth called Kaltanar.
12. The Golar gradually obtained dominion over the whole of Brittania, partly because they no longer had any burghs; secondly, because they had there no burgh-femmes; and thirdly, because they had no real lamps. From all these causes the people could not learn anything. They were stupid and foolish, and having allowed the Golar to rob them of their arms, they were led about like a bull with a ring in his nose.

http://frya.angelfire.com/2adela.htm#_Chapter_XXVII:_We

[phildee3]

The Danube isn't mentioned as such, though it is stated that Kalta took control of all Frisian territory south of the River Seine.

11. The news flew through the land like lightning, and before the carrier had made one revolution of the yule she was mistress of all the Thyriar in all our southern states as far as the Seiene. She built herself a burgh in Berchland to the north, and called it Kaltasburch. It still exists under the name of Kerenak. From this burgh she ruled as a tyrannical folk-mother, against their will, not for her followers, but over them, who were thenceforth called Kaltanar.
12. The Golar gradually obtained dominion over the whole of Brittania, partly because they no longer had any burghs; secondly, because they had there no burgh-femmes; and thirdly, because they had no real lamps. From all these causes the people could not learn anything. They were stupid and foolish, and having allowed the Golar to rob them of their arms, they were led about like a bull with a ring in his nose.

http://frya.angelfire.com/2adela.htm#_Chapter_XXVII:_We


"The late Hallstatt period (6th century bc) is sometimes known as the Age of Princes, on account of spectacular burials (such as that as Hochdorf) and impressive hillforts (such as that as Heuneburg). Both these developments may have been caused by an explosion of wealth, which made possible rich burials and also necessitated more elaborate defensive building.
Between the 5th and 1st centuries bc, Celtic influence extended from Spain to the shores of the Black Sea. This later Iron Age phase is called La Tène, after a site in Switzerland."
http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761563428/Celts.html

They certainly controlled most of Europe (eventually).
They conquored France and Spain.
But where from?
Hallstatt, Hochdorf, Heunburg and La Tène were obviously the places from which they ruled over the "stupid and foolish" people of Spain and France.

[swethirte]

"The late Hallstatt period (6th century bc) is sometimes known as the Age of Princes, on account of spectacular burials (such as that as Hochdorf) and impressive hillforts (such as that as Heuneburg). Both these developments may have been caused by an explosion of wealth, which made possible rich burials and also necessitated more elaborate defensive building.
Between the 5th and 1st centuries bc, Celtic influence extended from Spain to the shores of the Black Sea. This later Iron Age phase is called La Tène, after a site in Switzerland."
http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761563428/Celts.html

They certainly controlled most of Europe (eventually).
They conquored France and Spain.
But where from?
Hallstatt, Hochdorf, Heunburg and La Tène were obviously the places from which they ruled over the "stupid and foolish" people of Spain and France.

Could well be, yes.

[phildee3]

3716

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/c-d/celts01.html

[swethirte]

3716

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/history/c-d/celts01.html

Could well have been one of them, or that of one of her followers. The Oera Linda Book speficially mentions Kerenak, or Carnac, as her base.

[phildee3]

Could well have been one of them,

It is the grandest.


The Oera Linda Book speficially mentions Kerenak, or Carnac, as her base.



Yes, I saw that.
But there is no grand, iron-age ringfort there fit for a ruler.
This must refer to her spiritual base.
The great megalithic centre!

The Celts were drawn to the megaliths.
They reopened the chambers that had been closed during the bronze age.

Bronze age megaliths were relatively simple, funerary monuments - standing stones and barrows - but the earlier ones were temples which the Celts reused!

Carnac was the grandest!

[swethirte]

Yes, I saw that.
But there is no grand, iron-age ringfort there fit for a ruler.
This must refer to her spiritual base.
The great megalithic centre!

The Celts were drawn to the megaliths.
They reopened the chambers that had been closed during the bronze age.

Bronze age megaliths were relatively simple, funerary monuments - standing stones and barrows - but the earlier ones were temples which the Celts reused!

Carnac was the grandest!

That certainly makes sense, yes. Carnac was undoubtedly one of the most important spiritual sites in Kalta's territory.

[phildee3]

That certainly makes sense, yes. Carnac was undoubtedly one of the most important spiritual sites in Kalta's territory.



And the Oera Linda Book, being basically a spiritual text, would have been more concerned with the spiritual centre than the civic one, so it is not really surprising that the latter is not mentioned.
However, there must have been one, and being a wealthy civilization it must have been grand.

[swethirte]

And the Oera Linda Book, being basically a spiritual text, would have been more concerned with the spiritual centre than the civic one, so it is not really surprising that the latter is not mentioned.
However, there must have been one, and being a wealthy civilization it must have been grand.

Yes, that's certainly true.

[phildee3]

You know, ever since you've been talking about Atland, I've been thinking that it's for real but that it's not the same place as the better known Atlantis of Plato.

Years ago it was located west of the Canary Islands and now, with the new Google Earth ocean plug-in, we can see it:

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