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ie11
08-02-2009, 03:46 PM
Is Jihad Terrorism?
Draft version 0.2

The word Jihad has been frequently used by politicians, publications [1] and media outlets. Its uses have mostly, if not always, been associated with terrorism and wanton destruction.[2] Even during the aftermath of the tragic events of 9/11, 7/7 and the recent Mumbai Attacks, many western commentators labeled them as acts of Jihad. However, is Jihad terrorism? Does it involve wanton destruction and the killing of innocents en masse? Significantly, answers are required to the oft repeated question: what is Jihad?

This article aims to show that terrorist attacks and indiscriminate killing are antithetical to the Islamic concept of Jihad.

Fighting: A Human Reality

There have been many anthropological studies on war and fighting, and the conclusions are very similar. Not only have humans been fighting and killing for millennia, the act of fighting and killing is a human reality. The reasons for fighting and war differ. Some of these reasons include land, fame, fortune, religion, independence and resources. Humans have also fought to defend themselves and others, or to attack their enemies. In summary, war and fighting are human phenomena that are not specific to any particular race, ideology or religion.

In the modern world there are many wars, and they are mostly over resources. An example is the US and UK fighting for oil and strategic dominance in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Fighting & Islam

Islam, being a practical way of life, realises that humans fight and engage in war. Islam sets down rules for war, which are to be followed if Muslims go to war, examples include fighting for just reasons, no killing of innocent people, no killing of women and children, no burning of crops or trees, only fight those that fight you, and no wanton destruction. Abu Bakr who was the Prophet Muhammad's first successor and is considered to have been his closest companion said:

“Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic (or humanitarian) services; leave them alone.”

Many would argue that this is in contrast to certain Western nations when they invade countries; they tend to destroy the infrastructure of the countries causing more deaths than bullets and bombs (even the BBC reports that so called ‘smart bombs’ are not so smart, with only 40% hitting targets.[3] Civilian deaths in the US/UK invasions are evidence of this). Then contractual awards are given to western companies to rebuild the infrastructure, making the invaded country pay for it - Iraq is a striking example.

Whilst certain western powers wage war and invade for what everyone knows to be for resources and places of strategic value, in Islam war is not waged for these reasons; it does not invade to rob, steal and make lands poor - quite the opposite.

Jihad

The term most commonly used to describe Muslims fighting is Jihad, but it has been used politically to create fear of Islam and Muslims. Jihad has been linked to terrorism, however when the corpus of Islamic reference material is analysed, this cannot be further from the truth.

Jihad is when Muslims go to war, and it has its rules relating to it. Primarily there are two types of Jihad, defensive and progressive. Defensive is when Muslims rally to fight and expel armies from their lands which have been invaded. This concept is similar to article 51 of the UN Charter which states:

“Nothing in the present charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs….”[4]

Examples include when the Crusaders invaded Palestine in 11th/12th century, and when the Mongols invaded Central Asia, Persia, Iraq and Syria in the 13th century. This defensive Jihad is to push the occupiers out and has nothing to do with terrorism; in reality it is a basic human right.[5]

Progressive Jihad is practically undertaken by a legitimate Islamic State (no such state exists today) and is initiated for three main reasons. The reasons include removing oppression, defending the weak and implementing the justice of Islam. This is evident in Islamic history, John of Nikiou in 690 CE, who was a Coptic Bishop in Nikiu (Egypt), states,

“When Muslims saw the…hostility of the people to the emperor Heraclius because of the persecution wherewith he had visited all the land of Egypt…people began to help the Muslims.”[6]

Additionally, the oppression and all forms of genocide would justify progressive Jihad.

Progressive Jihad has three parts to it. It first invites the people to accept Islam by explaining the Islamic belief and what Islam has to offer people. This is done by dialogue and discussion and can take some time. After this, the Islamic State then invites the people to live within the state and enjoy peace, justice, security and protection. Historically many non-Muslim peoples have opted for this option. This is in exchange for a small yearly tax.[7] The famous letter from a Rabbi, after Europe’s persecution of the Jews, found in Phillip Mansel’s book “Constantinople ”, reflect this reality,

“Here in the land of the Turks we have nothing to complain of. We possess great fortunes; much gold and silver are in our hands. We are not oppressed with heavy taxes and our commerce is free and unhindered. Rich are the fruits of the earth. Everything is cheap and every one of us lives in peace and freedom...”[8]

The third and final course of action after the first two have been followed is war. This war is called Jihad and in cases of genocide and extreme oppression it may be the first and only part of the process. It is the final part of a foreign policy used by the Islamic State, and as mentioned it has its rules, like no wanton destruction and killing of innocents. When an Islamic State goes to war, it is not for money, land, or riches, but to show people the justice and security of Islam. Heinrich Graetz, a 19th century Jewish historian expressed the ‘favourable circumstances’ under Islamic rule,

“It was in these favourable circumstances that the Spanish Jews came under the rule of Mahometans, as whose allies they esteemed themselves the equals of their co-religionists in Babylonia and Persia. They were kindly treated, obtained religious liberty, of which they had so long been deprived, were permitted to exercise jurisdiction over their co-religionists…”[9]

This is unlike some western states, where Politicians claim they are fighting for so-called universal values, but in reality are fighting for resources and areas of strategic value. For example David Milliband, the British Foreign Secretary, said,

“Our party was created to fight for democracy and equal rights in our own country. We know we have further to go. But if we want to protect ourselves from terrorism at home, we need to defend and advance democracy and human rights abroad.”[10]

Judging by the current reality of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, nothing can be further from the truth. Islamic foreign policy however is truthful about its goals and history bears testimony to this. This is why Jews fled Spain in the Inquisition and ran to the Muslims of Istanbul who welcomed them, because they knew justice lived in Islamic lands. Zion Zohar, a Jewish Historian, expressed similar sentiments in his book ‘Sephardic & Mizrahi Jewry’:

“Thus, when Muslims crossed the straits of Gibraltar from North Africa in 711 CE and invaded the Iberian Peninsula, Jews welcomed them as liberators from Christian Persecution.”[11]

Jihad is seen by western peoples and nations as barbaric and this is propagated to the masses, by politicians and the media, to portray Muslims as bloodthirsty killers. An Islamic State would commit to progressive Jihad, and will use war as a last resort - when diplomacy fails - to really liberate people from oppression. In addition to remove the tyranny of injustice and to show the people what Islam really is and how Islam can truly make their lives and society better - even if they do not become Muslim.

The Islamic belief is not forced upon people once land is taken, 1400 years of history bears testament to this [12]. This is evident in the early testimonies of Christian leadership. Ishoyabth who was patriarch from AD 647 to 657, writes,

“The Arabs, to who God gave the dominion over the world, behave to us as you know. They are not hostile to Christianity, but praise our religion, honour priests and saints, and help the Churches and Monastries.”[11]

The Qur’an & Fighting

The Qur’an discusses fighting and Jihad, the language used is emotive and can be seen as aggressive. However, the intended effect of these verses in the Qur’an are meant to evoke action, therefore in the context of fighting and war, the Qur’an would not say “Tickle their toes” or “Give them flowers”. What must also be realised is that the language is couched in restraining expressions such as “…and God does not love the transgressors” and “…be mindful of God”[12] thus instilling an awareness of God in such actions and to remind that the essence of Jihad is to remove oppression.

In the Qur’an, Jihad is a noble concept that is considered as a mercy from God. Without it there would be no mechanism to protect Muslims and Non-Muslims, remove oppression and implement justice. In today’s reality of death and destruction, due to oppressive western foreign policy, some people argue that this concept needs to be revived to today [13].

The Results of Jihad

U.S. Brig. General William Looney’s following statement is an apt description of Western foreign policy,

“If they turn on the radars we're going to blow up their goddamn SAMs (surface-to-air missiles).They know we own their country. We own their airspace... We dictate the way they live and talk. And that's what's great about America right now. It's a good thing, especially when there's a lot of oil out there we need.” [14]

Whereas the Islamic view describes another paradigm,

“And what is the matter with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and for the oppressed among men, women and children who say, ‘Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper’?”[15]

Everyone wants to remove oppression and injustice. Islam does exactly that via Jihad and this can be seen in Islamic history. Contemporary pseudo-Islamic nations can not be used as a reference for Jihad and Islam as they do not implement and manifest the Islamic system. This is evident when their constitutions are analysed. It can only be concluded that Muslim world Governments implement and promote a system that is antithetical to Islam.

What, then, are the results of the Islamic foreign policy?

Reinhart Dozy, an authority on early Islamic Spain, explained the results of Jihad in Islamic Spain,

“…the unbounded tolerance of the Arabs must also be taken into account. In religious matters they put pressure on no man…Christians preferred their rule to that of the Franks.”[16]

Thomas Arnold, commenting on an Islamic source, states that,

“…the Christians called down blessings on the heads of the Muslims, saying, ‘May God give you rule over us again and make you victorious over the Romans; had it been they, they would not have given us back anything, but would have taken all that remained with us.’” [17]

Ulick R. Burke, a prominent historian specializing in the history of Spain, reached a similar conclusion,

“Christians did not suffer in any way, on account of their religion, at the hands of Moors…not only perfect toleration but nominal equality was the rule of the Arabs in Spain.’[18]

Adam Smith, the 18th century founding father of the modern capitalism, explains the impact of Islamic rule,

“The ruin of the empire of the Romans, and, along with it the subversion of all law and order, which happened a few centuries afterwards, produced the entire neglect of that study of the connecting principles of nature, to which leisure and security can alone give occasion. After the fall of those great conquerors and the civilizers of mankind, the empire of the Caliphs seems to have been the first state under which the world enjoyed that degree of tranquility which the cultivation of the sciences requires. It was under the protection of those generous and magnificent princes, that the ancient philosophy and astronomy of the Greeks were restored and established in the East; that tranquility, which their mild, just and religious government diffused over their vast empire, revived the curiosity of mankind, to inquire into the connecting principles of nature.” [19]

Bernard the Wise, a pilgrim monk, visited Egypt and Palestine in the reign of Caliph al-Mu’tazz (866-9 CE). He stated that,

“…the Christians and the Pagans [i.e. Muslims] have this kind of peace between them there that if I was going on a journey, and on the way the camel or donkey which bore my poor luggage were to die, and I was to abandon all my goods without any guardian, and go to the city for another pack animal, when I came back, I would find all my property uninjured: such is the peace there.”[20]

Reading the above, the reader must now ask “Does this sound like terrorism?”

The Cause of Terrorism

The history of terrorism and political violence demonstrates that it is cross-cultural, cross religion and is driven by a number of factors often born out of a sense of political injustice, occupation or invasion. An academic study by Professor Robert Pape, an Associate Professor at Chicago University, published in his book 'Dying to Win: The Logic of Suicide Terrorism' [21], demonstrates that the advent of suicide bombing is not unique to Muslims but is rather a generic human issue driven by a number of political factors rather than theological beliefs.

The study included the first complete database of every suicide attack around the world from 1980 to early 2004. The study found that:

• The world leader in suicide attacks was the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka – a Marxist, secular group.
• Two thirds of Muslim 'suicide bombers' have been from countries where US forces have or are still maintaining military forces.
• The presence of US forces is creating suicide attackers in Iraq which was a country that had never previously had a suicide attack in its history prior to the 2003 invasion.

According to the study, political injustice provides a possible reason for the proponents of such attacks to justify such actions. It is therefore crucial that acts of political violence are analysed as a separate issue based upon the individuals who choose to engage in them.

The Professor states,

“The data show that there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world’s religions. . . . Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland” [22]

Regarding the July 2005 bombings in London, the British government was forewarned that its involvement in the catastrophic US invasion of Iraq had increased Britain's vulnerability to the threat of retaliation. The leaked report from the UK's Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre (JTAC), which predated the attacks, warned:

"Events in Iraq are continuing to act as motivation and a focus of a range of terrorist related activity in the UK".

In April 2005, a report drawn up by the Joint Intelligence Committee (JIC) entitled "International Terrorism: Impact of Iraq" was even more explicit, stating:

"We judge that the conflict in Iraq has exacerbated the threat from international terrorism and will continue to have an impact in the long term. It has reinforced the determination of terrorists who were already committed to attacking the West and motivated others who were not."

It is essential to understand what role Western foreign policy has played in exacerbating the sense of political injustice and in driving individuals to undertake acts of political violence against those they perceive as aggressors. This is not a justification, but it does set a context for a discussion to find answers to contemporary political problems.

Rather than blame a whole community or its leanings towards Islam and its concept of Jihad, it is important to understand the political nature of the factors that drive such acts as opposed to solely attributing them to Jihad, which does not take account of the history of political violence across cultures, religions and ways of life.

Final Remarks

It has to be noted, that Muslims are simply human beings that believe in Islam, which is a comprehensive way of life that seeks to promote religious tolerance and social cohesion. The Islamic concept of Jihad is not indiscriminate terrorism, rather it is a mechanism that seeks to remove oppression and protect the innocent. In line with the teachings of classical Islam, Muslims do not – and should not – seek to violently attack non-combatants.

Muslims want to facilitate understanding and promote mutual peaceful coexistence. This however cannot be achieved without engaging in an open and honest discussion on what Islam really is. Outdated clichés of ‘Jihadi Terrorist’ can no longer quench the public’s intellectual thirst and a more nuanced and comprehensive discussion is now needed.

It was intended that this article would achieve just that.

References

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Jihad-Incorporated-Guide-Militant-Islam/dp/1591024536/
[2] http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/597641/jihad-with-money.thtml
[3] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1184086.stm
[4] http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/chapter7.htm
[5] This is different from what many commentators describe as ‘political violence’ please access the following link that differentiates between theology and political violence http://hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/2008/07/questions-is-islam-responsible-for.html or see section below in this article
[6] John of Nikiou, quoted by Petra M. Sijpesteijn, Egypt in the Byzantine World, Cambridge, 2007, P. 442.
[7] “Life as a Non-Muslim in the Caliphate” http://www.caliphate.co.uk/caliphate/nonmuslims.htm
[8] Philip Mansel. 1995. Constantinople : City of the World's desire, 1453-1924. Penguin Books, p. 15
[9] H. Graetz, History of the Jews, London , 1892, Vol 3, P. 112.
[10] http://www.epolitix.com/latestnews/article-detail/newsarticle/david-miliband-speech-in-full/
[11] Zion Zohar, Sephardic & Mizrahi Jewry, New York, 2005, P. 8-9.
[12] “Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah has grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " Qur'an 2:256
[13] Caliph and their non-Muslim subjects: A critical study of the covenant of Umar. A. S. Tritton. Routledge Library Editions: Islam. 2008, p. 138-139
[14] The orders are always couched in restraining language, with much repetition of warnings, such as "do not transgress" and "God does not love the transgressors" and "He loves those who are conscious of Him". These are instructions given to people who, from the beginning, should have the intention of acting "in the way of God". Linguistically we notice that the verses in this passage always restrict actions in a legalistic way, which appeals strongly to Muslims' conscience. In six verses (Quran 2:190-5) we find four prohibitions (do not), six restrictions: two "until", two "if", two "who attack you", as well as such cautions as "in the way of God", "be conscious of God", "God does not like aggressors", "God is with those who are conscious of Him", "with those who do good deeds" and "God is Forgiving, Merciful." It should be noted that the Qur'an, in treating the theme of war, as with many other themes, regularly gives the reasons and justifications for any action it demands. http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IV0603-2947
[15] Observer Comment Extra “Imperialism may be out, but aggressive wars and colonial protectorates are back” http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,,684308,00.html
[16] U.S. Brig. General William Looney (Interview Washington Post, August 30, 1999) Referring, in reality, to the brutal mass-murder of hundreds of civilian Iraqi men, women and children during 10,000 sorties by American/British war criminals in the first eight months of 1999.
[17] Qur’an 4:75
[18] Reinhart Dozy, A History of Muslims in Spain , 1861 (reprinted 1913, 2002), Delhi , P.235.
[19] T. W. Arnold , Preaching of Islam, London , 1913, P. 61.
[20] Ulick R. Burke, A History of Spain , London , 1900, Vol I, P. 129.
[21] The Essays of Adam Smith, London , 1869, P. 353.
[22] Christopher J. Walker, Islam and the West, Gloucester , 2005, P. 17.
[23] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win:_The_Strategic_Logic_of_Suicide_Terro rism
[24] Ibid

scooby85
08-02-2009, 03:51 PM
no definitely not, jihad literally means struggle..

if a muslim was figting an alcohol problem and wanted to give it up for god that is also a form of jihad. the western world has been brainwashed into thinking jihad = suicide bombers when that is completely forbidden in islam. a muslim is only allowed to be violent if he has to protect his land/religion and retaliate... so in my view the real terrorists are the zionists as they are provoking the islamic world and the islamic world is defending itself

ie11
08-02-2009, 03:56 PM
no definitely not, jihad literally means struggle..

if a muslim was figting an alcohol problem and wanted to give it up for god that is also a form of jihad. the western world has been brainwashed into thinking jihad = suicide bombers when that is completely forbidden in islam. a muslim is only allowed to be violent if he has to protect his land/religion and retaliate... so in my view the real terrorists are the zionists as they are provoking the islamic world and the islamic world is defending itself

WELL SAID. EXACTLY.

Scooby .. i know ... Read the article ... its from

http://hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/

I think you will like him ...

:)

quysant
08-02-2009, 05:11 PM
WELL SAID. EXACTLY.

Scooby .. i know ... Read the article ... its from

http://hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/

I think you will like him ...

:)


So is the ruling below just an invention?


Rulings on jihad

The scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) have mentioned the rulings on jihad and have stated that jihad is of two types:

1 – Taking the initiative in fighting

This means pursuing the kaafirs in their lands and calling them to Islam and fighting them if they do not agree to submit to the rule of Islam.

This kind of jihad is fard kifaayah (a communal obligation) upon the Muslims. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allaah), then certainly, Allaah is All-Seer of what they do”

[al-Anfaal 8:39]

“Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Tawbah 9:5]

“and fight against the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah) collectively as they fight against you collectively. But know that Allaah is with those who are Al-Muttaqoon (the pious”

[al-Tawbah 9:36]

“March forth, whether you are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), and strive hard with your wealth and your lives in the Cause of Allaah. This is better for you, if you but knew”
[al-Tawbah 9:41]

It was narrated from Ibn ‘Umar that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I have been commanded to fight the people until they bear witness that there is no god but Allaah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, and establish regular prayer, and pay zakaah, If they do that then their blood and wealth is safe from me, except by the laws of Islam, and their reckoning will be with Allaah.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 24; Muslim, 29.

Muslim (3533) narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever dies without having fought or thought to himself about fighting has died following one of the branches of hypocrisy.”

All of these texts – and many others in the Qur’aan and Sunnah – mean that it is obligatory for the Muslims to wage jihad against the kuffaar and take the initiative in that. The scholars are unanimously agreed that jihad against the kuffar, and seeking them in their own lands, and calling them to Islam, and waging jihad against them if they do not accept Islam or accept paying the jizyah, is obligatory and has not been abrogated.

Shaykh al-Islam (28/249) said:

Everyone who hears the call of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to the religion of Allaah with which he was sent and does not respond to it must be fought so that there will be no fitnah and so that submission will all be for Allaah.

Ibn ‘Atiyah said (2/43): There remains scholarly consensus that jihad is a communal obligation upon the ummah of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and if some of the Muslims undertake this duty the rest are absolved of responsibility.

skunksmash
08-02-2009, 05:13 PM
i thought ''jihad'' meant ''holy war''..?? :confused:


anyway...''death to the infidels'' is certainly a form of terrorism....IMO




:)SK

quysant
08-02-2009, 05:23 PM
i thought ''jihad'' meant ''holy war''..?? :confused:


anyway...''death to the infidels'' is certainly a form of terrorism....IMO

:)SK

Allaah says:

“Jihaad (holy fighting in Allaah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allaah knows but you do not know”

[al-Baqarah 2:216]

skunksmash
08-02-2009, 05:24 PM
Allaah says:

“Jihaad (holy fighting in Allaah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allaah knows but you do not know”

[al-Baqarah 2:216]

ahh.....cheers ;)





:)SK

ie11
08-02-2009, 05:45 PM
So is the ruling below just an invention?

Those statememnts are TRUE. But each one has its specified circumstance, condition and environment and context to be applied and as hisory shows thats exactly how these 'rulings' are applied.

When God in the Qurab says "fight the oppressors" thats a comandment and common sense. Fight them in varying means and ways to suit the time and place. Fight them either economically, psychologically, intellectually, spiritually, physically even ... as and when what is reasonable and true and good to do so in the context of a HOLISTIC understanding of the entire Quran taken in its context of its revelation.

So, one does not blindly take a statement "kill them where you find them" out of context and try to apply it clumsly on to anyone that you yourself may have decided fits the bill of an unbeliever or oppressor.

On the contrary, the specific context of "kill them where you find them" was revealed in its own context and situation for the prophet and their companions after they had been double-crossed and butchered by the armies of the anti-muslim arabs at the time. And it is applicable only in that context. They were litterrally double crossed, and bruttally murdered and that particular surah - if not taken in its context in the whole quran (quickly it is followed by 'but if they desist from harming you, if they lay down their swords, forgive them and let them go or give them peace. God Loves the mercificiful" of something like that. But many people quick to make a point or bach the religion will conveniently forget to include that line which appears just after the pre-mentioned. Its craxy ay? like quoting shakespear or british law only partially and thereby commingt to a wrong conclusion!)

So, take them in context. Stand alone they are all true and have been mentioned. I dont know who that guy is , but if he is a genuine and authorotative shiekh that the muslim community has accepted in consensus, then no one muslim in their right mind would take what he says without reasoning or our of context and WITHOUT referring to the Quran and Sunnah FIRST.

So, Its like me hearing GWB say "we must fight the terrorists" and taking that and the next thing jumping out of my house with a gun looking for someone who looks like a terrorist to me and blowing them up!

Its crazy. We dont do that. And nor do muslims!

I mean, there are procedures and rullings and first and foremorst the quran and sunnah for Muslims, and those who know it, know the conditions that must be met for a just defensive or JUST offensive war (to remove oppression and injustice).

Im not an expert, but that much i know i think.

As statements stand alone they sound like harsh - especially when you might quickly knew-jerk react to their mention or print and simultaneously think "how horrible" while simultaneously imagining an angry guy on TV waving his arms about and looking like he wants to blow you to smitherines.

Such is propeganda and conditioning. Its full of reasonable seeming people (in suits ) who are infact quite unreasonable and who behind the scenes are trying to make unreasonable people out of you, me and us.

So, no, those statements you posted do not show anything untoward or anything that contradicts what my original post said.

quysant
09-02-2009, 08:33 AM
Those statememnts are TRUE. But each one has its specified circumstance, condition and environment and context to be applied and as hisory shows thats exactly how these 'rulings' are applied.

When God in the Qurab says "fight the oppressors" thats a comandment and common sense. Fight them in varying means and ways to suit the time and place. Fight them either economically, psychologically, intellectually, spiritually, physically even ... as and when what is reasonable and true and good to do so in the context of a HOLISTIC understanding of the entire Quran taken in its context of its revelation.

So, one does not blindly take a statement "kill them where you find them" out of context and try to apply it clumsly on to anyone that you yourself may have decided fits the bill of an unbeliever or oppressor.

On the contrary, the specific context of "kill them where you find them" was revealed in its own context and situation for the prophet and their companions after they had been double-crossed and butchered by the armies of the anti-muslim arabs at the time. And it is applicable only in that context. They were litterrally double crossed, and bruttally murdered and that particular surah - if not taken in its context in the whole quran (quickly it is followed by 'but if they desist from harming you, if they lay down their swords, forgive them and let them go or give them peace. God Loves the mercificiful" of something like that. But many people quick to make a point or bach the religion will conveniently forget to include that line which appears just after the pre-mentioned. Its craxy ay? like quoting shakespear or british law only partially and thereby commingt to a wrong conclusion!)

So, take them in context. Stand alone they are all true and have been mentioned. I dont know who that guy is , but if he is a genuine and authorotative shiekh that the muslim community has accepted in consensus, then no one muslim in their right mind would take what he says without reasoning or our of context and WITHOUT referring to the Quran and Sunnah FIRST.

So, Its like me hearing GWB say "we must fight the terrorists" and taking that and the next thing jumping out of my house with a gun looking for someone who looks like a terrorist to me and blowing them up!

Its crazy. We dont do that. And nor do muslims!

I mean, there are procedures and rullings and first and foremorst the quran and sunnah for Muslims, and those who know it, know the conditions that must be met for a just defensive or JUST offensive war (to remove oppression and injustice).

Im not an expert, but that much i know i think.

As statements stand alone they sound like harsh - especially when you might quickly knew-jerk react to their mention or print and simultaneously think "how horrible" while simultaneously imagining an angry guy on TV waving his arms about and looking like he wants to blow you to smitherines.

Such is propeganda and conditioning. Its full of reasonable seeming people (in suits ) who are infact quite unreasonable and who behind the scenes are trying to make unreasonable people out of you, me and us.

So, no, those statements you posted do not show anything untoward or anything that contradicts what my original post said.

There is an infinite number of counter-arguments and counter-counter-arguments and counter-counter-..... all using different meanings and interpretations from different scholars using different values and computations.

The idea of "taking the initiative in fighting" rather than "defensive" is prescribed to Muslims. Some call it the Sixth Pillar.

This means pursuing the kaafirs in their lands and calling them to Islam and fighting them if they do not agree to submit to the rule of Islam.

This kind of jihad is fard kifaayah (a communal obligation) upon the Muslims.

You claim an historical context but in fact "the historical context" argument is not available to Islamic apologists, since the Quran is the eternal word of God, true and valid for always.

Please explain why God would have been so unprofessional and consign to all eternity such an ambiguous book as the Quran.

Also please explain why God would have been so unjust as to give the gift of "prophecy" and "his final word" to one man only and make others dependent on him.

Finally please explain to me how does one discern between a peace loving Muslim and one that will turn into a suicide bomber.

octopusrex
09-02-2009, 06:19 PM
Hmmm..

The Great Jihad, my father told me, is fought inside your heart. I don't see how terrorism can be fought inside one's own heart. That silly! "Don't move or I´ll have a heartattack!"

The "little" Jihad is what happens outside. Here, guerrilla tactics might keep you alive a little longer. Guerrilla warfare uses terror to defeat the "enemy", so sure, the little Jihad has some terrorism in it wot?

ie11
09-02-2009, 07:45 PM
hello Quysant and Octupusrex

I wont answer those questions (and some of them are really good!) directly myself becuase i am just a normal person with hopefully a conscience... like many people around the world. like many people were. whether they are christian, muslim, jew, hindu, buddhist, pagan, tree lover, atheist, whatver .

like the native american which alot of stigma was attached upon and nearly all early and later settlers thought they were savages, scaled whites (it was the settlers who started scalping and the natives coppied them) and uncivilised brutes/animals and heathans (but werent at all and we know now they were not and indeed many of us look up to them and wished the hopi and sioux for instance were still around in culture and had their own country. i wonder how america would have been !?). like the black man who for hundreds of years bar the notable exeption of the odd black guy working in europe, normal folk in the west were thaught to be canabals, savages, barbarians, idiot, inhuman, inferrior and have stupid customs (who on this forum now thinks that?). like any boggey man in history invented by the powers that be.

rome is a good example. rome, to its citizens, was taught to be the only place of peace, civilized manners (gladiators anyone?) and prosperity ... but infact was very much the opposite when you compare it to other groups who were around. even the greeks were taught to roman subjects as barbarians before they were conqured and many greek philosphers were killed (theres a fameaous one with archemedes i think when he was just killed on the spot whilts working out his mathematics) ... the persians had the most diverse and "accepting" culture (see western professors and even God forbid, the BBC and Channel 4! for that 'proof') ... and on an on ...

invent a lie and spread it around through the influencials and media of tehg cpountry ... make people feel guilty or stupid for suggesting otherwise ... and you will have these kind of results where a citizen will not even bother to look into the other culture in more depth or even do so with respect and fair-mindedness if he does, as he would do so when analysing the laws, regulations and stuff of his own authorities. people are scared of anything which threatens them (i.e. bad ungraceful authority) no matter how subtle the threat and will gladly look upon their own in such circumstyances with all the benefit of the doubt but never do so for the "other" bogey-man. expecially when its known that to do so is frowned upon - no matter how subtly - by the existing authority subjugating your/our lives and our perceptions with its ever repeating mantras which become axioms embeddd in the consciousness without the subjects realising in many cases.

hopefully you understand what i mean being on this forum i hope!

So, given that (and i will also post a reply i have asked a muslim to answer your questions and arguments directly), why woulndnt the same not be true now?

as an example, I watched the last samurai again recently, and after turned the tv on to panorama, where an afghani freedom fighter (or terrorist ... call him what you will. ones man x is another mans y) ... and i thought ; "jeesus fucking-eck luv!!!"

it was so similar. here is the western audience - you, me us - being moved by the samurai plight, feeling vulgar at the westernised, sell-out japaneese with the suits and american gattling gun, and feeling a sense of inujstice and horribleness at what happened on the last battele. And here is a westerner, mr tom cruise having fallen in love with the samurai culture and ways becuase they are no longer foriegn to him .. he no longer feels alienated to them ... and sees them as how they are (how the movie potrayed them) as oppsed to the way the japaneese business man tries to sell them to the emporer as being 'stuck in the past' or brutes, or of the old (thereby irrelivent) ways, etc, etc

but as a viewer of the film, you knew that such statememts where the business mans lies and couldnt be further from the truth ... and plus we as audiences were won over by their honorable ways and 'to the death' with honor for a just cause ...

ok, ok, ok, it was a film. hollywood. and on top of that, probabaly not all the facts are acuurate and i cant base my life or way of seeing thimngs according to an idealistic and possibly very nieve rose-tinted hollywood film ...

nevertheless. the parallels with the afghani guy talking to the reporter on panorama and what he said and what the afghan president (the sell out) said were too close to the film id just watched and realised that the same mantra that was repeated to us about the afghans and the talliban by presidents and prime ministers on the media was the same as the propeganda the new-world-order of japan did to its inhabbitats and within a few years they were all walking around with bowler hats, the walking cane became the new respectible thing, and also and most importantly their values changed in line with what provided a meal ticket ... as it does with all (or most) of us ... such is the system and human nature ...

anyway i could go on - i really could - but i think if i did id change the subject or get in to holes which while i could eventually dig myself out of, wouldnt be worth the time and effort id invest.

not everything you are told to believe - in schools, in media and elsewhere - is true ...

Octopusrex, yes as the Prophet said after he had returned from the battolefield to his companions we have fought the lesser jihad ... now is the greater jihad ... the jihad against the whispers and influences of satan (maya/samsara/the matrix what have you ... as i have described a little bit of above) the greatest jihad is inside the heart - what is more attacking then ones own selfish desires and ego, and the influences of the manifestatyions of the trickster, the imposter who says bad is good, and good is bad and confuses the hell out of a heart that is not at peace or knows the middle/straight path ...

what is more dangerous . this is the beggining and end of all the other jihads (struggles) ... ?

these are my own ramblings ... and they are not complete at all - i have other things to tend to(!) (seriously though, i do) - and i havnt answred any of your questions i think directly ... but for that i will send you a reply from a muslim who may do me the favour!

Kind regards,

me

octopusrex
09-02-2009, 11:51 PM
hello Quysant and Octupusrex

I wont answer those questions (and some of them are really good!) directly myself becuase i am just a normal person with hopefully a conscience... like many people around the world. like many people were. whether they are christian, muslim, jew, hindu, buddhist, pagan, tree lover, atheist, whatver .

like the native american which alot of stigma was attached upon and nearly all early and later settlers thought they were savages, scaled whites (it was the settlers who started scalping and the natives coppied them) and uncivilised brutes/animals and heathans (but werent at all and we know now they were not and indeed many of us look up to them and wished the hopi and sioux for instance were still around in culture and had their own country. i wonder how america would have been !?). like the black man who for hundreds of years bar the notable exeption of the odd black guy working in europe, normal folk in the west were thaught to be canabals, savages, barbarians, idiot, inhuman, inferrior and have stupid customs (who on this forum now thinks that?). like any boggey man in history invented by the powers that be.

rome is a good example. rome, to its citizens, was taught to be the only place of peace, civilized manners (gladiators anyone?) and prosperity ... but infact was very much the opposite when you compare it to other groups who were around. even the greeks were taught to roman subjects as barbarians before they were conqured and many greek philosphers were killed (theres a fameaous one with archemedes i think when he was just killed on the spot whilts working out his mathematics) ... the persians had the most diverse and "accepting" culture (see western professors and even God forbid, the BBC and Channel 4! for that 'proof') ... and on an on ...

invent a lie and spread it around through the influencials and media of tehg cpountry ... make people feel guilty or stupid for suggesting otherwise ... and you will have these kind of results where a citizen will not even bother to look into the other culture in more depth or even do so with respect and fair-mindedness if he does, as he would do so when analysing the laws, regulations and stuff of his own authorities. people are scared of anything which threatens them (i.e. bad ungraceful authority) no matter how subtle the threat and will gladly look upon their own in such circumstyances with all the benefit of the doubt but never do so for the "other" bogey-man. expecially when its known that to do so is frowned upon - no matter how subtly - by the existing authority subjugating your/our lives and our perceptions with its ever repeating mantras which become axioms embeddd in the consciousness without the subjects realising in many cases.

hopefully you understand what i mean being on this forum i hope!

So, given that (and i will also post a reply i have asked a muslim to answer your questions and arguments directly), why woulndnt the same not be true now?

as an example, I watched the last samurai again recently, and after turned the tv on to panorama, where an afghani freedom fighter (or terrorist ... call him what you will. ones man x is another mans y) ... and i thought ; "jeesus fucking-eck luv!!!"

it was so similar. here is the western audience - you, me us - being moved by the samurai plight, feeling vulgar at the westernised, sell-out japaneese with the suits and american gattling gun, and feeling a sense of inujstice and horribleness at what happened on the last battele. And here is a westerner, mr tom cruise having fallen in love with the samurai culture and ways becuase they are no longer foriegn to him .. he no longer feels alienated to them ... and sees them as how they are (how the movie potrayed them) as oppsed to the way the japaneese business man tries to sell them to the emporer as being 'stuck in the past' or brutes, or of the old (thereby irrelivent) ways, etc, etc

but as a viewer of the film, you knew that such statememts where the business mans lies and couldnt be further from the truth ... and plus we as audiences were won over by their honorable ways and 'to the death' with honor for a just cause ...

ok, ok, ok, it was a film. hollywood. and on top of that, probabaly not all the facts are acuurate and i cant base my life or way of seeing thimngs according to an idealistic and possibly very nieve rose-tinted hollywood film ...

nevertheless. the parallels with the afghani guy talking to the reporter on panorama and what he said and what the afghan president (the sell out) said were too close to the film id just watched and realised that the same mantra that was repeated to us about the afghans and the talliban by presidents and prime ministers on the media was the same as the propeganda the new-world-order of japan did to its inhabbitats and within a few years they were all walking around with bowler hats, the walking cane became the new respectible thing, and also and most importantly their values changed in line with what provided a meal ticket ... as it does with all (or most) of us ... such is the system and human nature ...

anyway i could go on - i really could - but i think if i did id change the subject or get in to holes which while i could eventually dig myself out of, wouldnt be worth the time and effort id invest.

not everything you are told to believe - in schools, in media and elsewhere - is true ...

Octopusrex, yes as the Prophet said after he had returned from the battolefield to his companions we have fought the lesser jihad ... now is the greater jihad ... the jihad against the whispers and influences of satan (maya/samsara/the matrix what have you ... as i have described a little bit of above) the greatest jihad is inside the heart - what is more attacking then ones own selfish desires and ego, and the influences of the manifestatyions of the trickster, the imposter who says bad is good, and good is bad and confuses the hell out of a heart that is not at peace or knows the middle/straight path ...

what is more dangerous . this is the beggining and end of all the other jihads (struggles) ... ?

these are my own ramblings ... and they are not complete at all - i have other things to tend to(!) (seriously though, i do) - and i havnt answred any of your questions i think directly ... but for that i will send you a reply from a muslim who may do me the favour!

Kind regards,

me

I´m thinking that muslim will probably agree, be he Sunni or Shia... After all.. In the muslim world, SUFIS rule!

14april2000
10-02-2009, 12:06 AM
This site is pretty good there 2 muslims involved in the project.

http://www.historyofjihad.org/

scooby85
11-02-2009, 05:17 PM
quysant yes jihad CAN involve violence but it doesnt mean violence, the literal translation is struggling for the path of god

14april2000
11-02-2009, 10:38 PM
quysant yes jihad CAN involve violence but it doesnt mean violence, the literal translation is struggling for the path of god

Maybe you ask the people in nations that have being invaded by Jihadist/islamic imperialism/genocide? They were given three choices as non muslims, convert to islam, pay higher taxes for being non muslims or be killed.

http://www.historyofjihad.org/