Is this reality intrinsically evil?

[tejas]

This is my first thread started here so please bare with me if I make any errors:

I've been musing around these thoughts for a long time now, is the virtual reality game around us an 'evil' creation created by an 'evil' creator in order to trap us or is it an expression of infinite possibility and thus a form of 'divine art'

One is a gnostic worldview, the other is a hindu mystical view and shared by other religions as well.

Doing a lot of thinking around the subject and each of the above answers dictate one conclusion, and they are both very different:

1.) This reality is a 'prison' created by darknesss/fear(as icke says in his books)which relies upon fear to to 'feed' itself . Thusly the creator is 'evil' and is much like a parasite.:(

Conclusion: We must escape the prison and free our consciousness

2.) This reality is an expression of the divine which sole purpose is for experience i.e we are the imagination of ourselves and everything around us is an art-form Thus the creator is basically an artist:cool:

Conclusion: It doesn't matter what we do as we created this and we are already free

Thoughts?

[richmick]

This is my first thread started here so please bare with me if I make any errors:

I've been musing around these thoughts for a long time now, is the virtual reality game around us an 'evil' creation created by an 'evil' creator in order to trap us or is it an expression of infinite possibility and thus a form of 'divine art'

One is a gnostic worldview, the other is a hindu mystical view and shared by other religions as well.

Doing a lot of thinking around the subject and each of the above answers dictate one conclusion, and they are both very different:

1.) This reality is a 'prison' created by darknesss/fear(as icke says in his books)which relies upon fear to to 'feed' itself . Thusly the creator is 'evil' and is much like a parasite.:(

Conclusion: We must escape the prison and free our consciousness

2.) This reality is an expression of the divine which sole purpose is for experience i.e we are the imagination of ourselves and everything around us is an art-form Thus the creator is basically an artist:cool:

Conclusion: It doesn't matter what we do as we created this and we are already free

Thoughts?

I think this world was created by evil, is controlled by evil, were good souls are trapped and constantly tempted over to the dark side.

Does infinite love exists? well if it does either a) it is weaker than evil because it did'nt stop it b) it is part of the game, sits back until it's time to play its part.

[danielg]

Download and open the Problem of Pain audiobook... has your answer there :-)
http://www.mininova.org/tor/275022

[tejas]

Download and open the Problem of Pain audiobook... has your answer there :-)
http://www.mininova.org/tor/275022

Maybe you could summarise for me? Especially since C.S Lewis was a fundamentalist christian and I do not see how his opinion would be valid.

[a fine naked fellow]

Say rather Imbalanced instead of evil. And it is only a reflection. Whoa!

[cheeb]

It's a bit subjective really'
Is the rain bad because it gets you wet'
or is it good because it feeds the plants
it depends on how you look at it.

Me in my dealings with the people I try to be alturistic
treat them as I would like them to treat me

It's hard work
but pans out in the end

pttp

POE

[ashyr]

HELL IS ON EARTH.

think about it. whenever anyone mentions anything to do with NEGATIVITY or HELL or HADES or whatever. its always a physical place. isntit?

HELL IS ON EARTH PEOPLE.

we are in hell. wake up.

[danielg]

Maybe you could summarise for me? Especially since C.S Lewis was a fundamentalist christian and I do not see how his opinion would be valid.
Fundamentalist christian? (wtf!) Because he used Biblical material he was a fundamentalist? Would you sa the same of Carl Jung?

[cleft_asunder]

Fundamentalist christian? (wtf!) Because he used Biblical material he was a fundamentalist? Would you sa the same of Carl Jung?

It is vitaly important to realise that the Bible was writen by the Illuminati. Using it as a tool is important. It does not make one a Christian.

[cleft_asunder]

I think this world was created by evil, is controlled by evil, were good souls are trapped and constantly tempted over to the dark side.

Does infinite love exists? well if it does either a) it is weaker than evil because it did'nt stop it b) it is part of the game, sits back until it's time to play its part.

Well summed up. I believe it's B.

[bigus_dickus]

Does infinite love exists? well if it does either a) it is weaker than evil because it did'nt stop it b) it is part of the game, sits back until it's time to play its part.
Well summed up. I believe it's B.
Well summed up. I believe it's B.

a) we are alive and we are not evil..

b) who is going to bring it to the front?

[rastamasta]

HELL IS ON EARTH.

think about it. whenever anyone mentions anything to do with NEGATIVITY or HELL or HADES or whatever. its always a physical place. isntit?

HELL IS ON EARTH PEOPLE.

we are in hell. wake up.

OMG someone on here has has a brain. Well done. You have worked it out.

[ashyr]

yes. thank you.lol


we are here to realise we dont need to be here.

thats why they say "CURIOSITY KILLED THE CAT"


think about it

[cleft_asunder]

Where's adramalech when you need him?

[limelady]

Is this reality intrinsically evil?

No, but those in control of it are.

[james777]

HELL IS ON EARTH.

think about it. whenever anyone mentions anything to do with NEGATIVITY or HELL or HADES or whatever. its always a physical place. isntit?

HELL IS ON EARTH PEOPLE.

we are in hell. wake up.

You are where you decide to be. I for one am not in hell.

[james777]

Evil cannot exist without morality because evil is profoundly immoral. This is just one clue that we are a moral and rightous race and through time we have invited, worshipped and accepted evil as part of our reality, even though it is merely an intruder.

[terminus_est]

HELL IS ON EARTH.

think about it. whenever anyone mentions anything to do with NEGATIVITY or HELL or HADES or whatever. its always a physical place. isntit?

HELL IS ON EARTH PEOPLE.

we are in hell. wake up.

Says the guy with a Satanic pentagram w/ upside down cross as an avatar.

[james777]

Says the guy with a Satanic pentagram w/ upside down cross as an avatar.

LOL.....

[a fine naked fellow]

Evil is a fascination with a shadow and not seeing your face in the glass.

I’m an optimist.

[intuition]

Im a good person and through my life experience its clear to me that evil people always prevail.How can you fight against something with no compassion? You cant.I dnt buy this idea that the world is going to have a spiritual awakening etc etc, lets get bk onto planet earth here, you can only fight fire with fire and anyone who tells you any different is just trying to make you get shafted even more.

[tejas]

Is this reality intrinsically evil?

No, but those in control of it are.

When you say those who are in control are intrinsically evil i.e the Reps (which i assume you are talking about) you have to realise that these Reps are merely following their 'programs' and if it were not for their 'program' they would not act they way they do and not require our life energies etc to survive. Now here is the major question, who and what is the 'Master-Programmer' whose in my opionion, sick idea it was to program this in such a way.

And did this 'Master-Programmer' program all of us including the nature of this reality? What were the intentions of this programmer? By understanding the INTENT of the programmer we understand the matrix's purpose and thusly our action is dictated as followed.

[tejas]

It is vitaly important to realise that the Bible was writen by the Illuminati. Using it as a tool is important. It does not make one a Christian.

I agree, however as an ex-fundamentalist myself I am very familiar with the writings of c.s. lewis and of his ideas and his answer to life is basically the same as every other fundamentalist christians': accept jesus christ as lord and saviour of your life
- I am not saying that he is identical to the fundamentalists walking around today - only that his logic pattern follows a similar path.

[tejas]

I think I need to clarify a few things in this thread.

Firstly by saying 'evil' I do not necessarily mean it in the 'good versus evil' essentially there is no such thing as evil, it is a matter of perception.

What I really mean is, do you think that the reality is a trap created by a malevolent god?

or

Do you think this reality is created by our own imagination for our own subjective experience?

Both of these have very different connotations.

In Ickes book 'Infinite love is the only truth - everything else is illusion' Icke explains that SELF-AWARE FEAR created this reality, and its various matrix programs and sub-programs and that essentially this reality is a trap for our consciousness, however many others (including Icke) also state that this reality is merely a creation of our own consciousness - which is correct?

[cleft_asunder]

I think I need to clarify a few things in this thread.

Firstly by saying 'evil' I do not necessarily mean it in the 'good versus evil' essentially there is no such thing as evil, it is a matter of perception.

What I really mean is, do you think that the reality is a trap created by a malevolent god?

or

Do you think this reality is created by our own imagination for our own subjective experience?

Both of these have very different connotations.

In Ickes book 'Infinite love is the only truth - everything else is illusion' Icke explains that SELF-AWARE FEAR created this reality, and its various matrix programs and sub-programs and that essentially this reality is a trap for our consciousness, however many others (including Icke) also state that this reality is merely a creation of our own consciousness - which is correct?

In the second vidcast, Icke was asked who controls the reptilians, and who controls the controllers of the reptilians, and who controls it. To my surprise Icke said he doesn't know. Yet in the book Infinite Love he writes like he does know, refering to Fear and a computer Matrix Mind at the top. Perhaps it's his speculation and he really doesn't know, but I got a different impression while reading the book.

[tejas]

In the second vidcast, Icke was asked who controls the reptilians, and who controls the controllers of the reptilians, and who controls it. To my surprise Icke said he doesn't know. Yet in the book Infinite Love he writes like he does know, refering to Fear and a computer Matrix Mind at the top. Perhaps it's his speculation and he really doesn't know, but I got a different impression while reading the book.

Yeah exactly - and the book didn't make it clear enough what this self-aware fear was, i.e. whether it is God/Creator or whatever it is.

Alot lies on these answers!

[neutron flux]

It's a bit subjective really'
Is the rain bad because it gets you wet'
or is it good because it feeds the plants
it depends on how you look at it.


That's what I'm thinking - is a cat evil because it tortures a mouse? Or is it a cat being a cat? It seems it comes with the territory.

The thing is people do "good" as they see it, no one with particulary see themselves "evil", but for example, I noticed a news story where a mother stabbed her baby daughter because she thought that demons had possessed her - so in her eyes it was "good". A 15 year old girl was stoned to death by an angry mob because she had relations with a man from another religion so it was seen as "good" - paramoralisms. The 'honour' killings that you hear about are another example of people doing what they think is "good", but to anyone else it is seen as an "evil" act.

The world we live in seen from an objective point of view is one of service of self and dominated by psychopaths in power who will do what it takes to keep their kind in power and control. Are they "evil"? No, they're being what they are. So we must not let such a species of human run our day-to-day affairs as it makes psychos of most people as they accept and mimic the system designed by psychos and see it as "good".

But I think we are here because we "fit" here. What better opportunity to learn and grow and observe our own behaviour than in a prison planet such as this. It's a beautiful planet but let's observe it as it is - a shit hole - for most part due to our entropy and our own self intrest to be "happy". I love nature as it connects us to something more grand than we could ever imagine - but it is a food chain based on feeding on other species - is that "evil"? I would say it's natural.

Just as my signature at the moment says - a rose grows best in manure. :)

My 2 pence on the matter.

[tejas]

That's what I'm thinking - is a cat evil because it tortures a mouse? Or is it a cat being a cat? It seems it comes with the territory.

The thing is people do "good" as they see it, no one with particulary see themselves "evil", but for example, I noticed a news story where a mother stabbed her baby daughter because she thought that demons had possessed her - so in her eyes it was "good". A 15 year old girl was stoned to death by an angry mob because she had relations with a man from another religion so it was seen as "good" - paramoralisms. The 'honour' killings that you hear about are another example of people doing what they think is "good", but to anyone else it is seen as an "evil" act.

The world we live in seen from an objective point of view is one of service of self and dominated by psychopaths in power who will do what it takes to keep their kind in power and control. Are they "evil"? No, they're being what they are. So we must not let such a species of human run our day-to-day affairs as it makes psychos of most people as they accept and mimic the system designed by psychos and see it as "good".

But I think we are here because we "fit" here. What better opportunity to learn and grow and observe our own behaviour than in a prison planet such as this. It's a beautiful planet but let's observe it as it is - a shit hole - for most part due to our entropy and our own self intrest to be "happy". I love nature as it connects us to something more grand than we could ever imagine - but it is a food chain based on feeding on other species - is that "evil"? I would say it's natural.

Just as my signature at the moment says - a rose grows best in manure. :)

My 2 pence on the matter.


I do not deny that good and evil are perspectives, I really wish I rephrased the topic now to avoid this confusion.

Do you think this reality is a prison?

[a fine naked fellow]

At best the planet is ruled by the few, and the human race is owned and put to work.
Told what to think and do, but we by into it. We choose it whether deceived or no.
So at best the planet is controlled by ignorance and suppression of intelligence.
But it is not yet a prison. And reality is not a prison. We are alive with or own thought and intent. Booyaka

[neutron flux]

Do you think this reality is a prison?

Well, yeah, you don't? It seems it's a prison for the mind body and soul. But it seems that's how you grow (if you work at it to escape). :)

[tejas]

Well, yeah, you don't? It seems it's a prison for the mind body and soul. But it seems that's how you grow (if you work at it to escape). :)

This is the crux of what I am trying to ask, if it is indeed a prison that their must be a jailor or something along those lines, and if it is indeed a prison then it must be broken from! BUT if it is merely a projective creation of our own consciousness then it doesnt matter!

[hew1]

HELL IS ON EARTH.

think about it. whenever anyone mentions anything to do with NEGATIVITY or HELL or HADES or whatever. its always a physical place. isntit?

HELL IS ON EARTH PEOPLE.

we are in hell. wake up.

could not agree more.

[tejas]

David Icke:

When I say it's all an illusion and a computer program, I do mean all is an apparent contradiction that the earth and the cosmos was supposed to have been created by a loving God and yet what we call Nature is a bloody battle-ground in which one animal's survival is dependent on another's, often grotesque, demise.

The law of the wild' was not the creation of a loving God or Oneness in awareness of itself. It was a Matrix software program and, without the control of fear, the relationship between animals, and animals and humans, would be very different.

Do you think the Infinite, where you are now, would wish to see anything suffer and live in fear, never mind create a structure in which this happened as a matter of course?' Nature was another holographic projection that was only 'real' because we were conditioned to believe it was.

The voice said the 'laws' of the natural world reflected the state of being of their creator, the force controlling the Matrix. This was a state of fear and desperation to survive ... a trait of the reptilian brain.
_______________________

It was just another bloody crime-scene in the wonderful world of Nature. What kind of 'intelligence' creates a natural world in which the survival of one depends on tearing another to pieces? What sick mind would design a global life-cycle in which the participants were in a mode of constant fear - humans as well as the animals? Would a loving God do that? No, but the mind behind the Matrix would, and it has.

[cleft_asunder]

I do not deny that good and evil are perspectives, I really wish I rephrased the topic now to avoid this confusion.

Do you think this reality is a prison?

It's obvious this reality --and not just this world-- is twisted and sick. All you have to do is look at nature to realise the character of the creator. Nature is about fear, survival, and tearing apart the other guy. This goes for vegetarian species too, since vegetation is conscious just like animals. Every lifeform is tearing every other lifeform apart, and being torn up as well. Beautiful ain't it?

There is no other point of view you need to look at; the nature of reality can be found in the microcosm of our Earth's nature. Nature is constantly at war, and the Native American's who view it as a beautiful thing are, ultimtately, wrong to view it as such. There is always something to be in fear of, and everything is fragile. For example, you may be in a community of Native American's 2000 years ago, living in balance with the land, but there is always the chance of losing loved ones, or losing a limb. Genuine security and peace in this reality is impossible, and we are always at the mercy of negative possibilities. If a possibility exists, it will be realised. My point is that even paradise is fragile, and because the possibility exists that we will lose paradise and go back into a state like we are in now, then that will happen eventual, That is evil and above all pointless. Maybe it's polarity that's the issue.

To make myself even clearer, we are on the verge of an awakening. But the Natives tell us that it's not the first or last time it's happened. So we'll be in paradise for a while, and then we'll go back into a state of ignorance and corruption. Icke mentioned that "something else is happening" in the book Infinite Love, but he seems to have put this idea aside. The women at Xeea-twelve also talks about the multiverse or universe being corrupted by evil, and there is a rescue mission going on.

I really wish I could understand what's going on.

[john white]

This is the crux of what I am trying to ask, if it is indeed a prison that their must be a jailor or something along those lines, and if it is indeed a prison then it must be broken from! BUT if it is merely a projective creation of our own consciousness then it doesnt matter!

How about it is both, and it is your choice? There IS a jailor, but he can only jail you if you agree that he can. Yet you dont have to agree there is a jailor

The Cathars (and the gnostics they derived from) took the view that the world was evil becuase of the inherant suffering of being in a physical body. they therefore concluded that the world could not be the product of the loving God they knew to be real, and therefore must be created by an evil flase god, a "demiurge". And this is one of the infinite paths to self liberation

There are those who spend their lives incarcerated yet are always, truly, free. Many of the great avatars of the ages have been imprisoned for considerable portions of their lives (truth tellers rarely being popular): yet never ceased being free

Yet many are those physically unrestricted all their days who nonetheless never know the sweet air of freedom

Really, it is a question of mind: a matter of perspective

Finite mind cannot understand infinite reality unless and untill it can embrace all paradox and resolve it into peace... choose between paradoxes and one never has the full picture

Duality or Oneness, Slavery or Freedom

What works for you?

Therein lies the answer you seek ;)

[cleft_asunder]

How about it is both, and it is your choice? There IS a jailor, but he can only jail you if you agree that he can. Yet you dont have to agree there is a jailor

The Cathars (and the gnostics they derived from) took the view that the world was evil becuase of the inherant suffering of being in a physical body. they therefore concluded that the world could not be the product of the loving God they knew to be real, and therefore must be created by an evil flase god, a "demiurge". And this is one of the infinite paths to self liberation

There are those who spend their lives incarcerated yet are always, truly, free. Many of the great avatars of the ages have been imprisoned for considerable portions of their lives (truth tellers rarely being popular): yet never ceased being free

Yet many are those physically unrestricted all their days who nonetheless never know the sweet air of freedom

Really, it is a question of mind: a matter of perspective

Finite mind cannot understand infinite reality unless and untill it can embrace all paradox and resolve it into peace... choose between paradoxes and one never has the full picture

Duality or Oneness, Slavery or Freedom

What works for you?

Therein lies the answer you seek ;)

I don't agree. You make it sound like all I have to do is choose not to be in the Matrix, and Zoop! I'm fucking gone. It ain't like that at all, because when I die I won't even have a choice NOT to reincarnate. We are at the mercy of the Matrix. Whatever it wants to do, it does do. Even this awakening thing isn't because we chose to change reality. It seems to by cyclic and external, and we didn't do a damned thing to save ourselves--we have to rely on some "wave" --as they call it-- to put us into "paradise." If it weren't for this wave, we will surely be in the NWO with a microchip in our ass.

[tejas]

How about it is both, and it is your choice? There IS a jailor, but he can only jail you if you agree that he can. Yet you dont have to agree there is a jailor

The Cathars (and the gnostics they derived from) took the view that the world was evil becuase of the inherant suffering of being in a physical body. they therefore concluded that the world could not be the product of the loving God they knew to be real, and therefore must be created by an evil flase god, a "demiurge". And this is one of the infinite paths to self liberation

There are those who spend their lives incarcerated yet are always, truly, free. Many of the great avatars of the ages have been imprisoned for considerable portions of their lives (truth tellers rarely being popular): yet never ceased being free

Yet many are those physically unrestricted all their days who nonetheless never know the sweet air of freedom

Really, it is a question of mind: a matter of perspective

Finite mind cannot understand infinite reality unless and untill it can embrace all paradox and resolve it into peace... choose between paradoxes and one never has the full picture

Duality or Oneness, Slavery or Freedom

What works for you?

Therein lies the answer you seek ;)


Well put, that is indeed what i used to think - however nowadays I have the fear that the idea that reality is a matter of perspective is just another trick of the matrix, a sophisitacated psychological cop out created to take advantage of our indeed finite minds :(

I agree with cleft_asunder in that respect, the gnostics were certainly on to something or were they?

[tejas]

I don't agree. You make it sound like all I have to do is choose not to be in the Matrix, and Zoop! I'm fucking gone. It ain't like that at all, because when I die I won't even have a choice NOT to reincarnate. We are at the mercy of the Matrix. Whatever it wants to do, it does do. Even this awakening thing isn't because we chose to change reality. It seems to by cyclic and external, and we didn't do a damned thing to save ourselves--we have to rely on some "wave" --as they call it-- to put us into "paradise." If it weren't for this wave, we will surely be in the NWO with a microchip in our ass.

I agree with your disagreeal :cool:

[danielg]

t's obvious this reality --and not just this world-- is twisted and sick. All you have to do is look at nature to realise the character of the creator. Nature is about fear, survival, and tearing apart the other guy. This goes for vegetarian species too, since vegetation is conscious just like animals. Every lifeform is tearing every other lifeform apart, and being torn up as well. Beautiful ain't it?
'The other guy', doesn't exist in nature outside of (self-aware) mankind, as there is only one consciousness. Fauna and flora sharing this consciousness eating each another to sustain their lives isn't destroying consciousness, simply recycling it. Animals do not sense pain and suffering as victims, or as their own pain, but simply as pain, or pleasure which drives their instincts.
The only thing not beautiful about nature is mankind has been traumatised into disassociating from nature.

[cleft_asunder]

Animals do not sense pain and suffering as victims, or as their own pain, but simply as pain, or pleasure which drives their instincts.


How do you know? My dogs have emotions just like humans, and they get depressed and suffer sometimes.

[john white]

I don't agree. You make it sound like all I have to do is choose not to be in the Matrix, and Zoop! I'm fucking gone. It ain't like that at all, because when I die I won't even have a choice NOT to reincarnate. We are at the mercy of the Matrix. Whatever it wants to do, it does do. Even this awakening thing isn't because we chose to change reality. It seems to by cyclic and external, and we didn't do a damned thing to save ourselves--we have to rely on some "wave" --as they call it-- to put us into "paradise." If it weren't for this wave, we will surely be in the NWO with a microchip in our ass.

Well, where do ALL of the above perspectives come from Cleft? Certainly there have always been those who are free, so matters are not as cyclical as they may appear to be. And I can assure you that if you truly dont do a "damned thing" to help yourself: you surely wont be recieving any help, becuase you yourself would ensure you reject it.

Love me, that I may Love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My Love can in no wise reach thee

There is always an active component: thats what free will is all about

Well put, that is indeed what i used to think - however nowadays I have the fear that the idea that reality is a matter of perspective is just another trick of the matrix, a sophisitacated psychological cop out created to take advantage of our indeed finite minds

I agree with cleft_asunder in that respect, the gnostics were certainly on to something or were they?

Of course the Gnostics were onto something: yet being onto something is not holding the whole of the thing. Yes, mind is indeed finite, becuase mind is the product of the organic computer, the instrument with which consciousness interacts with this dimension. Mind is finite, as the instrument is finite, as it was designed to be (what else is "seperateness" if not an exercise in experiancing limitation?): consciousness is not: Mind creates good and evil: consciousness encompasses "good" and "evil"

I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone besides Me? Out of the clay of Love I moulded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting

I consider the above to be a poetic description of consciousness talking to mind... what else but the seduction of illusion could make a being formed of love believe in "Evil"? or its mirror "good"? (for "good" creates "evil" just as "evil" creates "good": yet both are osscilations from the centre. Balance creates neither, for it already is all)

Still, one is not looking to alter anyone elses mind here... always, thats all our own business

[cleft_asunder]

Well put, that is indeed what i used to think - however nowadays I have the fear that the idea that reality is a matter of perspective is just another trick of the matrix, a sophisitacated psychological cop out created to take advantage of our indeed finite minds :(

I agree with cleft_asunder in that respect, the gnostics were certainly on to something or were they?

It may be a matter of perspective in the Matrix, but ultimately I don't think it is in the scope of God.

[cleft_asunder]

John, what is your definition of free, any way? If you ask me, no one escapes the Matrix.

[tejas]

Well, where do ALL of the above perspectives come from Cleft? Certainly there have always been those who are free, so matters are not as cyclical as they may appear to be. And I can assure you that if you truly dont do a "damned thing" to help yourself: you surely wont be recieving any help, becuase you yourself would ensure you reject it.



There is always an active component: thats what free will is all about



Of course the Gnostics were onto something: yet being onto something is not holding the whole of the thing. Yes, mind is indeed finite, becuase mind is the product of the organic computer, the instrument with which consciousness interacts with this dimension. Mind is finite, as the instrument is finite, as it was designed to be (what else is "seperateness" if not an exercise in experiancing limitation?): consciousness is not: Mind creates good and evil: consciousness encompasses "good" and "evil"



I consider the above to be a poetic description of consciousness talking to mind... what else but the seduction of illusion could make a being formed of love believe in "Evil"? or its mirror "good"? (for "good" creates "evil" just as "evil" creates "good": yet both are osscilations from the centre. Balance creates neither, for it already is all)

Still, one is not looking to alter anyone elses mind here... always, thats all our own business


So then how do I know that I am free? How do I choose to be free? What is the plan of action :)

[danielg]

How do you know? My dogs have emotions just like humans, and they get depressed and suffer sometimes.
Your dogs don't get morbidly contemplative about pain, and blame the matrix or consider it a 'sick and twisted' existence. :). There only exists the instinct to experience pleasure, whether by reproducing or ripping apart another animal to satisfy hunger (etc).

[cleft_asunder]

Your dogs don't get morbidly contemplative about pain, and blame the matrix or consider it a 'sick and twisted' existence. :). There only exists the instinct to experience pleasure, whether by reproducing or ripping apart another animal to satisfy hunger (etc).

So in other words, ignorance is bliss. And that solves what?

[danielg]

So then how do I know that I am free? How do I choose to be free? What is the plan of action
Whats with all of this freedom and prison talk? Just be. Focusing your awareness on yourself gives more awareness than words and questions on the hypothetical matrix can ever do. Being is freedom, freedom from the prison of the incessant ego.

[john white]

John, what is your definition of free, any way? If you ask me, no one escapes the Matrix.

"Invisible in its presence, longed for in its absence: to be, completely and harmoniously"

(Thats my answer "in the Now" btw, I'm not quoting!)

I agree: no-one (seperation of the one) escapes the Matrix: becuase "everyone" (ego seperation) is an illusion of the matrix: merging into the one: transcends the matrix

There is no peace for thee save by renouncing thyself and turning unto Me

Sorrow not save that thou art far from Us. Rejoice not save that thou art drawing near and returning unto us

Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from the same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and live in the same land, that from your innermost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest

Excuse me quoting the Sufi poetry, I just love this stuff, I find it deeply profound ;)

(and hopefully relevant)

So then how do I know that I am free? How do I choose to be free? What is the plan of action?

[the jock rock]

Yes, a great thread.It is so great as to be at a loss how to begin a reply.
Obviously this reality is very wicked at times.One only has to see the news.
Until we come together as a people and decide to do something??????


Conscience doth make cowards of us all , but not the masters of reality.
Obnoxious as it may seem we get the reality that we deserve.Bad ; aint it?
Come a new awakening of the minds of ordinary folk, will come a new reason.
Knowledge as well as gnosis is what i am talking about here.


Seeing as a sense is about seeing beyond the bullshit we read and looking.
Unless you open your eyes and minds you will not see what people mean.
Conscious observation is of primary importance in our daily activities.
Knowledge of oneself is the beginning of all seeing.Seeing is understanding.
Every reality is subject to your Human perception of that reality.
Reasonable people such as myself LOL wish eternal youth on everyone.
Such a reality would be endurable!


Forever Youthful------Youth Conquers!:p

[cleft_asunder]

Whats with all of this freedom and prison talk? Just be. Focusing your awareness on yourself gives more awareness than words and questions on the hypothetical matrix can ever do. Being is freedom, freedom from the prison of the incessant ego.

I was wondering when we were going to get into the topic of enlightenment. Now that we've brought it up, I wonder if it really is the ultimate truth, or if it's another illusion. I have not experienced that state.

[julieray]

Hello all,
I am new to this site, and remember David Icke when he used to present on the T.V. (Grandstand or something like that) His teachings haven't really had an effect on me until recently when I have found myself researching and investigating myself on the internet. I apologise if it is something you have all heard before, but I have found much of what David has said on the Wingmakers website, both a very similar. Also there is a site called Illuminati News which also makes clear all the corruption going on in the world. David may not know everything but his investigations are still ongoing and there is so much information on the net that it would probably take lifetimes to research. The bloodline theories are all there - something that you would never get to hear about on the news, because we are being controlled by the media and the hierachy that control them.

I would urge anyone who is looking for answers to look at Wingmakers because, although very technical and somewhat far fetched, I feel compelled to believe it completely. It contains paintings and music also which highers your own vibrations - which, at the end of the day is what this world needs to move forward. I should be interested to know any of your views on this.
Regards, Julie

[the jock rock]

You are welcome Julieray.I am glad you have found us and can see we aint
thick loonatics that people try to make out we are. People say we are so
dumb because we have seen through the veil of lies. I love Wales and the
Welsh people.Your accents are so soothing;not like our West Country " oy ant
bint no furder dan crass da stereet":D:D:D


Peace on you Julieray and wecome:p

[earthseed]

Bentov said in his work that we are the ultimate creator of this reality. So that could be why the true creator is unknown. Who controls these higher level henchmen it could be us. Now why we want to play these kinds of sick vr games is beyond me. I can only assume that if we are the infinite we get bored and that's what started this downward spiral: boredom.

:o

[julieray]

Dear Rock Jock,

Although some may giggle or laugh out loud to what David Icke has to say - I for one am open minded about everything and, after other sites I have read recently, I am definitely of the view that David has been enlightened by his experience and is selfless enough to share his knowledge with those who will listen. I believe more and more will listen to him. He is a very wise man and not at all foolish. The fools are those who refuse to listen - they have been warned - I try to tell people myself and get a mixed response - mostly of a "your crackers" kind of response, but it gets easier with each time I repeat it funnily enough.

I also read recently that once a man reaches the 33rd degree in terms of Freemasonry that they are replaced by a reptile. Does anyone know at what point in time people of power are replaced and what becomes of them? Are they killed but their bodies used to hide the reptile within??

Furthermore, what can be done to stop this? How can we play our part to ensure that these beings cannot win their fight???
Regards,
Julie

P.S. I don't think you are all loons by the way - mind you after some of the comments I have read - maybe just a little!!

[julieray]

With regards to being the creator. Perhaps Bentov implied that we each, have created our own realities since I believe that we have already chosen our destiny before we were incarnated on earth, that we have previously chosen the path we are to take to learn valuable lessons. I also believe that God/First Source is a part of us all, so reading between the lines, that comment is factually correct.
If you are bored EarthSeed, you may have needed to experience this feeling together with everything else going on in your life in this lifetime. Perhaps you needed to feel this way in order to make you decide to do something else, more worthwhile perhaps.

Just a thought to make some sense of it all.
Regards,
Julie

[synergy777]

this gnostic view as matter as being evil is a flawed and submissive one.ask yourself is your loved one evil, your child evil, your pet, the sun, the trees, what about a flower, ooh very evil. matter is merely the construct/building block, its wave/particle energy condensed isn't it?

come on lets recognise that gnosticism, like organised religion is owned by the same people now. the gnostic = gnosis, stuff is no different to personal, introspection, contemplation, discovery. all this dressing up universal truths in wonderful language, names like sophia, archons, etc, why.

heres the quick view, got to eat dinner.

this plane of existence is 3d, life. its seems to be holographic (micro/macro), electrostatic/electromagnetic forces help us to experience solidity/touch. however we know from the construction of atoms, that they are 99% hollow, empty, not solid eg nucleus=neutrons/protons, electrons whizzing around the nucleus. so if the unit of our construction is not solid,then how can we be solid?

so we know that due to people like tesla, electrons, free energy are the lingua franca of existence. the holographic/electric universe. as we realise that we are dealing with waves/particle duality, observer effect. that we are in energy/wave existence. so this plane/level of existence is governed/created by these qualities, its construction. so whether we like it or not, our existence is on a field/wave of energy. add to this the potential of other dimensions, planes of existence, higher up and below. hence its more inter dimensional.

i think the construction of existence due to atoms/electriomagnetic/electrostatic construction is real, a lesser reality. i think the devil is real, but more intelligent, sophisticated, sly, etc than we like to imagine, or even acknowledge. ancient cultures would not have killed/sacrificed people . the irony is that we acknowledge love, luck, but not devil/hate. so matter is matter, neither good or evil, just energy. we are living in an ocean of energy/electrons.

i think what it comes down to is recogninsing evil/good. learning about them both, then really finding ourselves. after the indoctrination of societal/media/cult-ural, religious programming is gone, find out who you are as a person, irrespective of others. then you find out what you want to do, do good, or do evil. from there you have to learn the knowledge, tactics, structures, compassion, etc.

[richmick]

Has anyone ever seen a reptoid. When i was a wee lad, in primary school (catholic) they had these guys travel around the schools playing christian songs. We were all gathered around on one occasion, i was too one of the singers right. Well i saw a membrane drop across the guys eye, transparent but from my angle i could see it. I remember feeling very disturbed and tried to rationalise it. I simply put it down to a disformity that could not be helped. I always remembered it, i was about 10 i think. But maybe it was a disformity, i dont know, i just remember when i started reading about the icke stuff, thinking, bloody hell i've seen that lol. Sometimes i wonder whether i dreamt it as a kid, but no, i remember the day very well...

I have 3 aunties in Wrexham, nice place. ;)

[synergy777]

no offence, if i was a reptoid, i would be in playboy mansion not singing hymns bro.

[richmick]

no offence, if i was a reptoid, i would be in playboy mansion not singing hymns bro.



Lol so would i be. I just remember it and quite honestly until i see with my own eyes the full transformation of a human into a reptoid, I'll remain a doubting thomas. I'm open minded mind you, but dont want to be fooled into believing something that was never real.

As Paramahansa Yogananda used to say, never have blind faith.

However, in ickes books he talks about reptoid experiences involving low level, ordinary people, like that soldier he mentioned. So, it is not just the top families that shift. Is Icke saying there are thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of these creatures (if they exists) roaming around, because that is the impression he gave me. :)

oh well, it's good to remain skeptical.

[tejas]

this gnostic view as matter as being evil is a flawed and submissive one.ask yourself is your loved one evil, your child evil, your pet, the sun, the trees, what about a flower, ooh very evil. matter is merely the construct/building block, its wave/particle energy condensed isn't it?

come on lets recognise that gnosticism, like organised religion is owned by the same people now. the gnostic = gnosis, stuff is no different to personal, introspection, contemplation, discovery. all this dressing up universal truths in wonderful language, names like sophia, archons, etc, why.

heres the quick view, got to eat dinner.

this plane of existence is 3d, life. its seems to be holographic (micro/macro), electrostatic/electromagnetic forces help us to experience solidity/touch. however we know from the construction of atoms, that they are 99% hollow, empty, not solid eg nucleus=neutrons/protons, electrons whizzing around the nucleus. so if the unit of our construction is not solid,then how can we be solid?

so we know that due to people like tesla, electrons, free energy are the lingua franca of existence. the holographic/electric universe. as we realise that we are dealing with waves/particle duality, observer effect. that we are in energy/wave existence. so this plane/level of existence is governed/created by these qualities, its construction. so whether we like it or not, our existence is on a field/wave of energy. add to this the potential of other dimensions, planes of existence, higher up and below. hence its more inter dimensional.

i think the construction of existence due to atoms/electriomagnetic/electrostatic construction is real, a lesser reality. i think the devil is real, but more intelligent, sophisticated, sly, etc than we like to imagine, or even acknowledge. ancient cultures would not have killed/sacrificed people . the irony is that we acknowledge love, luck, but not devil/hate. so matter is matter, neither good or evil, just energy. we are living in an ocean of energy/electrons.

i think what it comes down to is recogninsing evil/good. learning about them both, then really finding ourselves. after the indoctrination of societal/media/cult-ural, religious programming is gone, find out who you are as a person, irrespective of others. then you find out what you want to do, do good, or do evil. from there you have to learn the knowledge, tactics, structures, compassion, etc.


I dont think that thats what the gnostics meant by 'matter is evil'.
Good and evil is a matter of perspective entirely and so matter can only be 'evil' if you perceive it as 'evil' .

By 'evil' what they meant was that what you see around you, your loved one, your child, your pet, the sun, the trees, and the flower is a cleverly constructed 'trap' to keep you 'enticed' and stop you from realising your 'true' self or from realising 'the truth' whatever that may be.

These things may seem beautiful at first glance, but over many lifetimes of repeating the same cycle of birth, learning, relearning, reproducing and death one begins to feel suspicious about the true nature of the cycle. As if it were some sort of 'drug' .

My £0.02

[munro69]

hello tejas i have always struggled with this same dilema. Because of the nature of belief the fact that the ego/mind made self/ edits out of awareness anything that contradicts a belief. We have to be very careful. The gnostics talked about Knowing a place beyond thought for that matter so does Icke. Consensus reality has a gravitational pull we are all trying to break away from. Some times i intuit that this is a prison and we are kept here by our own desires "Kabbala" talks about this. That we are learning to handle power/energy/god force/love the jailer is only able to keep us here by giving us our desires and watching us build up negative debt/karma when we wake up become conscious awareness and see our thoughts as seperate we become a threat and then this force goes to work on us relly hard speaking to us in thoughts we perceive to be our own tempting us off the path. Addiction is a massive problem and it was apt you saw the world as a drug. For me This force deals in excitement and pleasure, power and pain all negative attributes.

[truthsayer]

Being a good person takes hard work, being a bad person is the weaker of the two choices and easier to "feed".

I live in a town that's intrinsically 'evil' with hundreds of years of dark history (The Bloody Assizes, Judge Jefferies, etc.) so much so a Queen would not visit here for hundreds of years (not since the 16th cent. I believe).

Its like a magnet for bad. I've spent my whole life trying to leave (like Royston Vasesy, you'll never leave!)

I do believe there are evil hotspots, and I feel like a duck out of water living here and the people here continually remind me of that feeling in their conduct.

I liken it to being sane in a mental asylum so surreal are the peoples behaviour here and what they deem, acceptable and 'normal'.

I'm still trying to leave

[cleft_asunder]

I received a copy of The Disappearance of the Universe today after a recommendation by someone here on the forum. So far I'm on page 35, and I can say that you must read this book! It is HARDCORE and what we're talking about here --the Matrix Illusion and how it relates to God, and how to escape the Matrix-- is the very foundation of the book. It is a confirmation of that which Icke talks about, and really clears things up. It is so easy to read and so in depth that I must recommend everyone buys it.

Amazon.com: The Disappearance of the Universe: Straight Talk about Illusions, Past Lives, Religion, Sex, Politics, and the Miracles of Forgiveness (9781401905668): Gary R. Renard: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XguCYY0wL.@@AMEPARAM@@51XguCYY0wL

[tejas]

I received a copy of The Disappearance of the Universe today after a recommendation by someone here on the forum. So far I'm on page 35, and I can say that you must read this book! It is HARDCORE and what we're talking about here --the Matrix Illusion and how it relates to God, and how to escape the Matrix-- is the very foundation of the book. It is a confirmation of that which Icke talks about, and really clears things up. It is so easy to read and so in depth that I must recommend everyone buys it.

http://www.amazon.com/Disappearance-Universe-Straight-Illusions-Forgiveness/dp/1401905668/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-5380490-3578860?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182823592&sr=8-1

SOunds interesting - let me know how it goes!

[ashyr]

ahha says the guy with the satanic pentagram. lol

go you good thing. you being prejudice?

well when someone is rememberd for there death you know how much of a strange world we live in. do you think the last thing jesus would want to see when he comes back is heaps of people carryin figures of him NAILED to the cross. he probabbly wouldnt want to see that thing again. bad memorys.

ahah my AVATAR pisses you off doesnt it. yes let your energy flow to it.
even if you try and ignore it. your still acknowldeging it. hah.

[ashyr]

btw. tejas ive only ever met one person with that name before. quiet a unique name. you ever been to NZ?

[cleft_asunder]

SOunds interesting - let me know how it goes!

I'm on page 205. The book is essentially an explanation of The Course of Miracles which was channeled to a woman named Dr. Helen Schucman over a period of 7 years. The voice in Helen's head claimed to be Jesus. Unfortunately, it seems that this has MKultra written all over it. I feel like both books are an example of a lot of truth mixed in with damaging lies. But it is important that you do not take my word for it, but rather read the Disappearance of the Universe for yourself.

[tejas]

btw. tejas ive only ever met one person with that name before. quiet a unique name. you ever been to NZ?

Nope I havent.
Tejas is quite a common indian name actually, it comes from the sanskrit word 'Tej' which means light!

[tejas]

I'm on page 205. The book is essentially an explanation of The Course of Miracles which was channeled to a woman named Dr. Helen Schucman over a period of 7 years. The voice in Helen's head claimed to be Jesus. Unfortunately, it seems that this has MKultra written all over it. I feel like both books are an example of a lot of truth mixed in with damaging lies. But it is important that you do not take my word for it, but rather read the Disappearance of the Universe for yourself.

Channeled information is something that I am always weary of!

[synergy777]

is reality instrisically evil, nope, but are humans instrincally stupid ?, lol

if it was instrically evil, why all the effort to do good, save it? wouldn't you want to leave it. the lie is that reality is instrically evil,why? so you stop seeing how wonderful, beautiful it really is.

after all if i was satan, i would say matter is bad (electrons, atoms, are all so evil, bad electron).then i would say the creator is bad, you are gods, anything to boost you and seduce you. anything to stop you connecting with your soul/spirit/creator, anything to stop you seeing the soul in humans of all colours, both genders, animals, nature. i would pit you against eachother on every field of conflict i could imagine. from religous, economic, race, even your soul/ego, heck left/right brain, even reptile core verses higher functions. anything to keep you in constant fear, conflict, insecurity.

trauma based control, divide and rule, with choices of opposames/controlled oppostions, all brought you you in technicolour, multi-dimensional doublespeak.

after all a divided house cannot stand. looks like the term "know your enemy" needs to be heeded.

being evil is easy, being good is hard.

[julieray]

From what I have been reading, I am of the opinion that evil does not exist as a physical or spiritual sense. In fact Satan was a man made icon in order to frighten us mortals into towing the line (in the religious sense) and whilst every evil act, if you like or thought eminates in energy, that it is not evil per se but just negative which other vulnerable people feed off.

If you look at your life as experience - no matter what you do or what you achieve, you have gained experience, be it good or bad and from that you will learn so that your next life, those experiences will go with you. That is why some people/children are just so wise for their age - they basically have brought thousands of lifetimes to this lifetime.

I would never commit murder because I feel as though I have evolved far beyond that level - whereas some murderers are just starting out, but from this, they will learn. If you are living in an area where there is a lot of negative energy, send love and healing to disperse it - believe me it works.

Yes Wrexham is full of Aunties I have some here too!!!! lol

[ashyr]

oh ok . sorry i spose yeah if i was in teh right area i would have heard it more often right. hehe

are you indian?

[julieray]

I believe in the theories of Wingmakers and whilst it is somewhat far fetched, as long as you read it with an open mind, I think, like me, you will feel, in your heart, that it can only be the truth. In fact the more I read and understood, the more I became convinced it was the truth. Like I said, there is no evil in the spiritual sense, only experience - I think you can justify many things through this approach where there is no justification. Even David Icke must agree that whilst everyone is full of doom and gloom, the negative energy created is only feeding those who are negative. If we all remain positive and focused and agree that the negative forces will not succeed, then they will not - I will never be put off that the bad will win - ever the optimist. Visualisation is also a powerful tool. See it, feel it, believe it, experience it. It is the only way to stay sane. Anyone else been on this site by the way?? www.wingmakers.com.