Icke: "It's the devil!"

[haukipesukone]

Some problems just arose in my head regarding some stuff that Icke says. Icke mocks people who say about atrology or stuff like "it's the devil", but then he does the same regarding satanism. I have hard time believing that LaVey's Church of Satan has any deep connections to any evil and esoteric rituals, it's just an organization to dupe rich people into giving away their money. Maybe a few members of the Church have actully engaged in blood drinking or human sacrifice, but I think it's the exception and not the norm. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the Church. I think it sucks, it's a church, a secular organization with secular goals.

My point is Icke says other people label some things as satanic and for that they should be ignored, but Icke does the same. He labels stuff as satanic, as is it really meant anything. It's a label, a title which is meaningless. I don't think people who label themselves as satanist are any more servants of evil than other people. If he means there are people doing ritual sacrifice and blood drinking he shouldn't call them satanists, but murderers and blood drinkers. My intention is not to complain that Icke uses the word "satanist" in the wrong, but to say he's misleading people with his labeling. The way he does it is like since they're satanists you shouldn't asses their deeds rationally and objectively.

Could be that Icke only did that in the nineties and maybe he knows better now. I'm not sure. Haven't compared his older videos with the more recent ones.

Anybody else have problems with this?

[bensonz]

Some problems just arose in my head regarding some stuff that Icke says. Icke mocks people who say about atrology or stuff like "it's the devil", but then he does the same regarding satanism. I have hard time believing that LaVey's Church of Satan has any deep connections to any evil and esoteric rituals, it's just an organization to dupe rich people into giving away their money. Maybe a few members of the Church have actully engaged in blood drinking or human sacrifice, but I think it's the exception and not the norm. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the Church. I think it sucks, it's a church, a secular organization with secular goals.

My point is Icke says other people label some things as satanic and for that they should be ignored, but Icke does the same. He labels stuff as satanic, as is it really meant anything. It's a label, a title which is meaningless. I don't think people who label themselves as satanist are any more servants of evil than other people. If he means there are people doing ritual sacrifice and blood drinking he shouldn't call them satanists, but murderers and blood drinkers. My intention is not to complain that Icke uses the word "satanist" in the wrong, but to say he's misleading people with his labeling. The way he does it is like since they're satanists you shouldn't asses their deeds rationally and objectively.

Could be that Icke only did that in the nineties and maybe he knows better now. I'm not sure. Haven't compared his older videos with the more recent ones.

Anybody else have problems with this?

Icke and people like him want to have their cake and eat it, they are accountable to no one. For example they will discount the bible as a fairy tale and yet quote scripture to back up their arguements.

[mrmoney]

Icke and people like him want to have their cake and eat it, they are accountable to no one. For example they will discount the bible as a fairy tale and yet quote scripture to back up their arguements.

Yeah, that's what I never understood... I guess he's saying this part he quoted is somehow valid... lol

[halleyscomet]

Some problems just arose in my head regarding some stuff that Icke says. Icke mocks people who say about atrology or stuff like "it's the devil", but then he does the same regarding satanism. I have hard time believing that LaVey's Church of Satan has any deep connections to any evil and esoteric rituals, it's just an organization to dupe rich people into giving away their money.

People frequently use the same tired old arguments over and over again, even if they attack those same arguments when used by others. Ultimately it's intellectual laziness and dishonesty. He's jettisoning logic and thought in favor of fear mongering. Given the number of members on his forum I'd say the tactic is working for his pocketbook, even if it isn't resulting in any real change in the world at large.

[bensonz]

People frequently use the same tired old arguments over and over again, even if they attack those same arguments when used by others. Ultimately it's intellectual laziness and dishonesty. He's jettisoning logic and thought in favor of fear mongering. Given the number of members on his forum I'd say the tactic is working for his pocketbook, even if it isn't resulting in any real change in the world at large.

I agree halley, having said that though for me to be here, it's cost me nothing aprt from the power and the internet bill, and my time. In a sense, David has got an excellent debate going, Im thankful for that, and I have also thanked David and the moderators publically for allowing all points of view. I think that needs to be acknolwdged and applauded. At least we arent be hauled of to the gas chambers for disagreeing eh? Yet!!!

I have even considered that David Icke is an extremely intelligent covert Christian, the reason I say this is because the good news of the gospel is freely available on this site for anyone who is seeking the truth. Now thats going to put the cat amoung the pigeons.

[armoured_amazon]

Icke and people like him want to have their cake and eat it, they are accountable to no one. For example they will discount the bible as a fairy tale and yet quote scripture to back up their arguements.

Heh. :)

[octopusrex]

Some problems just arose in my head regarding some stuff that Icke says. Icke mocks people who say about atrology or stuff like "it's the devil", but then he does the same regarding satanism. I have hard time believing that LaVey's Church of Satan has any deep connections to any evil and esoteric rituals, it's just an organization to dupe rich people into giving away their money. Maybe a few members of the Church have actully engaged in blood drinking or human sacrifice, but I think it's the exception and not the norm. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the Church. I think it sucks, it's a church, a secular organization with secular goals.

My point is Icke says other people label some things as satanic and for that they should be ignored, but Icke does the same. He labels stuff as satanic, as is it really meant anything. It's a label, a title which is meaningless. I don't think people who label themselves as satanist are any more servants of evil than other people. If he means there are people doing ritual sacrifice and blood drinking he shouldn't call them satanists, but murderers and blood drinkers. My intention is not to complain that Icke uses the word "satanist" in the wrong, but to say he's misleading people with his labeling. The way he does it is like since they're satanists you shouldn't asses their deeds rationally and objectively.

Could be that Icke only did that in the nineties and maybe he knows better now. I'm not sure. Haven't compared his older videos with the more recent ones.

Anybody else have problems with this?

Jawhol.

[supertzar]

The way he does it is like since they're satanists you shouldn't asses their deeds rationally and objectively.

Can you provide an instance of this in David Icke's words?

[supertzar]

I guess not!

[size_of_light]

My point is Icke says other people label some things as satanic and for that they should be ignored, but Icke does the same. He labels stuff as satanic, as is it really meant anything. It's a label, a title which is meaningless. I don't think people who label themselves as satanist are any more servants of evil than other people. If he means there are people doing ritual sacrifice and blood drinking he shouldn't call them satanists, but murderers and blood drinkers. My intention is not to complain that Icke uses the word "satanist" in the wrong, but to say he's misleading people with his labeling. The way he does it is like since they're satanists you shouldn't asses their deeds rationally and objectively.


I think 'Satanists' is shorthand like 'Illuminati', and most people reading his stuff would understand it in the appropriate context.

[pinkfreud]

I think 'Satanists' is shorthand like 'Illuminati', and most people reading his stuff would understand it in the appropriate context.


true, he does mention the illuminati freaks 'worshipping' moloch/satan.

i think d.i. should look deeper into the 'esoteric' sciences, hauk, like you said- i don't think he looks much into astrology but i think he should, it's more powerful than we know.

[comawhite015]

'Satanic' is a silly term. It's just a blanket word for 'generically evil' which gets thrown around way too much. It is knee-jerk laziness.

[boots]

true, he does mention the illuminati freaks 'worshipping' moloch/satan.

i think d.i. should look deeper into the 'esoteric' sciences, hauk, like you said- i don't think he looks much into astrology but i think he should, it's more powerful than we know.

I would have to disagree with you PF Icke imo does understand it. He imo understands the difference between occult and satanism.


'Satanic' is a silly term. It's just a blanket word for 'generically evil' which gets thrown around way too much. It is knee-jerk laziness.

Well your right mate it is a term for generic evil but I dont think it is silly. OK it's a generalization but peep's have also built a ideology on this term.

[comawhite015]

Well your right mate it is a term for generic evil but I dont think it is silly. OK it's a generalization but peep's have also built a ideology on this term.

Yeah, but I guess my point was, for example, in another thread about the poor girl who was eaten, somebody said simply something like

'This sounds Satanic to me!'

What the hell does that even mean? You can't just slap a buzzword on something and leave it like that.. it shows a lack of thinking, to me. That's all.

[boots]

Yeah, but I guess my point was, for example, in another thread about the poor girl who was eaten, somebody said simply something like

'This sounds Satanic to me!'

What the hell does that even mean? You can't just slap a buzzword on something and leave it like that.. it shows a lack of thinking, to me. That's all.


Fair enough I see were you are coming from I saw that thread but hadn't looked at it.

Your right though, peeps dont explain what they mean when they post and it can be misconstrued. It's just an emotional response and the emotions can be satanic. OMFG :) Did I just say that:D

Love ya:)

[marpat]

Some problems just arose in my head regarding some stuff that Icke says. Icke mocks people who say about atrology or stuff like "it's the devil", but then he does the same regarding satanism. I have hard time believing that LaVey's Church of Satan has any deep connections to any evil and esoteric rituals, it's just an organization to dupe rich people into giving away their money. Maybe a few members of the Church have actully engaged in blood drinking or human sacrifice, but I think it's the exception and not the norm. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the Church. I think it sucks, it's a church, a secular organization with secular goals.

My point is Icke says other people label some things as satanic and for that they should be ignored, but Icke does the same. He labels stuff as satanic, as is it really meant anything. It's a label, a title which is meaningless. I don't think people who label themselves as satanist are any more servants of evil than other people. If he means there are people doing ritual sacrifice and blood drinking he shouldn't call them satanists, but murderers and blood drinkers. My intention is not to complain that Icke uses the word "satanist" in the wrong, but to say he's misleading people with his labeling. The way he does it is like since they're satanists you shouldn't asses their deeds rationally and objectively.

Could be that Icke only did that in the nineties and maybe he knows better now. I'm not sure. Haven't compared his older videos with the more recent ones.

Anybody else have problems with this?


Totally agree, especially when judgements are based on the opinions of a third party rather than direct knowledge, which is the basis of much of his thinking.

Another problem is that once he has made the label many of his sheep automatically follow, their logic being that if Icke said it then it must be true.

I think all that will happen is that they will condemn and ignore many useful things that could help development. What are people who follow his work left with as their only guidance, 'infinite love', and we dont see much of this in the forum.

[marpat]

true, he does mention the illuminati freaks 'worshipping' moloch/satan.

i think d.i. should look deeper into the 'esoteric' sciences, hauk, like you said- i don't think he looks much into astrology but i think he should, it's more powerful than we know.

True

I get the feeling that if he does not like a subject then he thinks it can be dispensed with rather than making the effort to work with it, which requires time and effort and possibly a change of thinking.

It would seem he is more prone to follow the line of least resistance. What are people left with at the end? trying to focus on infinite love, with nothing else to help or guide them.

[bensonz]

Can you provide an instance of this in David Icke's words?

Divis Icke Interview

Anyway, it seems that one of the key reasons that they are trying to hold this genetic structure is that this planet is actually controlled not from the physical level, which is just one level of it, but actually from what people call the lower astral, or I call the lower fourth dimension. It is the lower cess-pit end of the dimension closest to this one. And, it seems that, talking to people who have worked on the inside with these people and taken part in their rituals-indeed, in one case, conducted them-these lower fourth-dimensional entities who, of course, the satanic rituals interact with-the legendary realm of the folklore demons and all this stuff-that somehow, these particular genetic lines, in their most pure form, have a much greater vibrational reasonance and vibrational sympathy with the lower fourth dimension, and therefore, can be much more easily-what we would call-possessed and taken over by these lower fourth-dimensional entities, which kind of means that if you can put these particular bloodlines, the physical body, if you like, in a position of power, you're actually putting these lower fourth-dimensional entities into positions of power, because they're working through these particular lines.

[supertzar]

So, you are saying that the people who perform the rituals do not consider them to be "Satanic?" How do you know?

[soulja]

some people make it sound like there is no such thing as a Satanist.

[niall]

Icke and people like him want to have their cake and eat it, they are accountable to no one. For example they will discount the bible as a fairy tale and yet quote scripture to back up their arguments.

I find that quite strange too. Why quote from something that you don't believe is true?

[supertzar]

It's kind of a sophmoric criticism. There are countless reasons why one might refer to a source about which one has cast doubt. Elucidating the method and true meaning of the source is one.

[octopusrex]

Must be my line of work, but I´ve met quite a few hard core satanists in my day, including his unholiness Anton LeVey. Perfectly reasonable people most of them. They especially like fried chicken.

[bensonz]

So, you are saying that the people who perform the rituals do not consider them to be "Satanic?" How do you know?

I misread your earlier question I thought you where asking for evidensc of where David used the term satanist.

I would say they are definately Satanic, and they know they are Satanic

However, I thought David teaches that god and satan dont' exist. Perhaps it is only a trifal matter of semantics but as we all know words have meanings , if he is going to claim something doesnt exists, it is better that he uses other words to back up his arguemnets, otherwise it is ccould be concluded or percieved that what he is talking about doesnt exist. IE Its a fairy tale.

Now having said that, Im a bible beliver (yeah I know dumb bastard eh) but any way, the bible talks of Demons and Demon possession. If that is true, then a Demon possed person, can be made to see anything by the demon, it isnt unreasonable to suggest that someone under demon possession could hallucinate seeing someone turn into a lizard or reptile or whatever. People under the influence of drugs have seen these things. I certainly have, but it was a drug induced hallucination. Just an opinion, thats all. I dont really know.

[bensonz]

Must be my line of work, but I´ve met quite a few hard core satanists in my day, including his unholiness Anton LeVey. Perfectly reasonable people most of them. They especially like fried chicken.

Is that why Freddy Mercury ends the song one vision with the words gimme gimme gimme Fried Chicken maybe?

Ive never been able to figure why that lyric is there. Maybe it was an in Satanist joke? Although Freddie was a of the Zoroastrian religion wast he?

Hey Im just waxing lyrical here, mulling it over. Im not losing sleep over it. So dont get fired up, geniuses.

As far as Satanist being perfectly reasonable, one could conclude from this that it is perfectly reasonable that satan is very real.

[comawhite015]

I'll tell you what's Satanic.

Microwaves. Anything that gets that hot without fire, that's of the devil.

I tell you what, you put a mince pie in there for three minutes, take it out, bite into it, if that's not Hell, I don't know what is.

[soulja]

Is that why Freddy Mercury ends the song one vision with the words gimme gimme gimme Fried Chicken maybe?

Ive never been able to figure why that lyric is there. Maybe it was an in Satanist joke? Although Freddie was a of the Zoroastrian religion wast he?


it's a cannibalistic joke apparantly. humans supposedly taste like chicken.

[supertzar]

I misread your earlier question I thought you where asking for evidensc of where David used the term satanist.

I would say they are definately Satanic, and they know they are Satanic

However, I thought David teaches that god and satan dont' exist. Perhaps it is only a trifal matter of semantics but as we all know words have meanings , if he is going to claim something doesnt exists, it is better that he uses other words to back up his arguemnets, otherwise it is ccould be concluded or percieved that what he is talking about doesnt exist. IE Its a fairy tale.

Now having said that, Im a bible beliver (yeah I know dumb bastard eh) but any way, the bible talks of Demons and Demon possession. If that is true, then a Demon possed person, can be made to see anything by the demon, it isnt unreasonable to suggest that someone under demon possession could hallucinate seeing someone turn into a lizard or reptile or whatever. People under the influence of drugs have seen these things. I certainly have, but it was a drug induced hallucination. Just an opinion, thats all. I dont really know.


I thought he made it clear that it doesn't matter if Satan exists or not. What is important to understand is that the concept of Satan is used to control people and it is the intention behind Satanism that is the issue.

[octopusrex]

Is that why Freddy Mercury ends the song one vision with the words gimme gimme gimme Fried Chicken maybe?

Ive never been able to figure why that lyric is there. Maybe it was an in Satanist joke? Although Freddie was a of the Zoroastrian religion wast he?

Hey Im just waxing lyrical here, mulling it over. Im not losing sleep over it. So dont get fired up, geniuses.

As far as Satanist being perfectly reasonable, one could conclude from this that it is perfectly reasonable that satan is very real.

I have it from an exceedingly reliable source that human flesh is closest to swine than any other meat.

[halleyscomet]

I have it from an exceedingly reliable source that human flesh is closest to swine than any other meat.

Well, one of the nicknames for human flesh is "long pig."

[bensonz]

I have it from an exceedingly reliable source that human flesh is closest to swine than any other meat.

The blokes who crashed in the andes (ALIVE) is the tirtle, great book. They ate there dead teammates to survive. ANd said it atsted like pig.



Mates with Anton Levey, reliabale sources of how human flesh tastes....?

Anything else you would like to share with us???

[bensonz]

I thought he made it clear that it doesn't matter if Satan exists or not. What is important to understand is that the concept of Satan is used to control people and it is the intention behind Satanism that is the issue.

Oh Right. Where as the fear mongering concept of reptilean shapeshifters and illuminati shills, isn't. DI is certainoly using it to control the ever increasing size of his bank account, at the very least.

Saying that, Im greatful for the free forums, and open discussion. Hey if people are mug enough to swallow it, fair play to him.

Does the old saying laughing all the way to the bank, ring any bells?

My style of discussion is to give people enough rope to hang themselves, just thought I would let you all in on that.

Ive had to tell Albert Pierrepoint not to bother comimng in, everyone is hanging themselves.

[bensonz]

it's a cannibalistic joke apparantly. humans supposedly taste like chicken.

WELL FREAK MY DUNGAS. Eating human flesh is obvioulsy a mayor part of stanic ritual then.

I'll never eat fried chicken again. Thanks Freddy, I used to love Queen, my favourite band of all time. Not any more, de de doom doom doom doom another fan bites the dust.

I always suspectde the stanic undertones of the song.This is about the ushering in of the ant-christ, the stop on the end puts a finer point to it.

Thanks for sharing that with us mate. It's another little piece of the puzzle for me. They say the devil is in the details, oh how right, how right they are.

For ALL your information.

One Vision by Queen


One man one goal one mission, (anti Christ?)
One heart one soul just one solution, (who else had a solution? the final final solution?) Sorry folks one soul, no reincarnation)
One flash of light yeah one god one vision (satan ihas been described as lightening) god with a small g is always the satan god in the bible)

One flesh one bone,
One true religion, (false anti christ religeon?)
One voice one hope,
One real decision,
Wowowowo gimme one vision

No wrong no right, (This is a satanic doctrine) Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law
I'm gonna tell you there's no black and no white, (Im going to lie to you?)
No blood no stain, (any ideas on this?) ( no evidence, no proof, a cover up)
All we need is one world wide vision (one world wide Government and Religeon NWO?)

One flesh one bone,
One true religion, (I'll get no argumenet here that "Religeon" isnt the answer, will I)
One voice one hope,
One real decision,
Wowowowowowo

I had a dream,
When I was young,
A dream of sweet illusion, (illusion?) Exposing the dream world we belive to be real
A glimpse of hope and unity, ( a glimpse is what the world will get, and then WHACK) Hitler gave a glimpse of hope
And visions of one sweet union,
But a cold wind blows,
And a dark rain falls,
And in my heart it shows,
Look what they've done to my dream (Christ's Ultimate Victory)

Vision,
Give me your hands, (?) Number of th beast)
Give me your hearts, (Believe the lie with all your heartsl?)
I'm ready, ( I bet you fucken are, well where on to you)
There's only one direction, (to hell?)
One world and one nation, (need I say more?)
Yeah one vision (yeah fuck up freddy you evil fucker)

No hate no fight, (Oh yeah right!)
Just excitation, (Just excecution)
All through the night,
It's a celebration wowowowo yeah (Killing the true believers) Hilters trrops had the most fun terrorizing at night)

One one one (Id wager thats repeated six times)

One flesh one bone,
One true religion,
One voice one hope,
One real decision (make the right decision people, a real decision can be really wrong, no what Im sayin)

Gimme one night,
Gimme one hope,
Just gimme,
One man one man,
One bar one night, (what does one bar mean, any one a pub, what?)


aOne day hey hey,
Just gimme gimme gimme
Fried chicken - The taste of human flesh - (well I'll be fucken blowed)

[thirdwave]

I find that quite strange too. Why quote from something that you don't believe is true?

How else could we argue that the bible is a misleading document without quoting parts of it and asking difficult questions that arise with ones faith in it?

[supertzar]

Oh Right. Where as the fear mongering concept of reptilean shapeshifters and illuminati shills, isn't. DI is certainoly using it to control the ever increasing size of his bank account, at the very least.

Yeah, David Icke and his scheme for mass mind control of humanity through the spreading of fear. :rolleyes:

[halleyscomet]

Yeah, David Icke and his scheme for mass mind control of humanity through the spreading of fear. :rolleyes:

Not mind control.

Just exploiting the gullible.

[thirdwave]

Oh Right. Where as the fear mongering concept of reptilean shapeshifters and illuminati shills, isn't. DI is certainoly using it to control the ever increasing size of his bank account, at the very least.


And here we see a person who has either not read any of his works or you simply choose to ignore the bulk of it.

Reptilian fear mongoring?

for someone who comes here to bible thump he has a cheek of accusing others of fear mongoring.

David Ickes main focus is on our mental state and how we can liberate our selves simply by using our own minds.... he believes that the evil in the world is down to our ignorance of these controlling forces (who he believes are of an alien reptilian genetics) and the lack of knowledge regarding the power we actually have, that we don't realise.

while the whole reptilian thing is very much up for debate the bottom line is the only people who would see what David Icke does as fear mongering are people that simply do not trust their own minds.. and do not like being told to use it.

as for the rubbish about him making money... he was earning a good living before he decided to become the UKs biggest laughing stock (which about 15-20 years later has paid off with him now actually selling a credible amount of books and talks)

Even today his name is mocked or disliked so I hardly think what he does is the most sufficient way to earn a living.. And even today we do not see him sell out and change his perspective... he still believes now what he done from the start even if he has educated him self better on various things...

I don't think Icke is about telling us what's true or not... just about telling us to use our own minds and to question reality. It really is no shock many religious people do not take to him so smoothly.

[supertzar]

Not mind control.

Just exploiting the gullible.

I thought the "isn't" part of when you said "Where as the fear mongering concept of reptilean shapeshifters and illuminati shills, isn't" referred to my statement that "the concept of Satan is used to control people and it is the intention behind Satanism that is the issue."

Were you not making a sarcastic comment equating Icke's fear mongering with controlling people?

[halleyscomet]

I thought the "isn't" part of when you said "Where as the fear mongering concept of reptilean shapeshifters and illuminati shills, isn't" referred to my statement that "the concept of Satan is used to control people and it is the intention behind Satanism that is the issue."

Were you not making a sarcastic comment equating Icke's fear mongering with controlling people?

I never said that. That was someone else. You might want to go back and figure out WHO you're responding to.

[octopusrex]

The blokes who crashed in the andes (ALIVE) is the tirtle, great book. They ate there dead teammates to survive. ANd said it atsted like pig.



Mates with Anton Levey, reliabale sources of how human flesh tastes....?

Anything else you would like to share with us???

Sure. :D

[supertzar]

I never said that. That was someone else. You might want to go back and figure out WHO you're responding to.

Right. I thought it was Bensonz. My apologies.

[drc_]

Icke and people like him want to have their cake and eat it, they are accountable to no one. For example they will discount the bible as a fairy tale and yet quote scripture to back up their arguements.

All those religious books are fairy tales. BUT! They're fairy tales derived from real tales, crafted into symbolic stories for us to take literally.

The story of Jesus for example, has been taken literally all over the world. Yet the story is symbolism. Symbolism for astrological events and things.

So Jesus is a fairy tale, not to be taken literally, but the symbolism is very true.

This is what all religion is based on. Real stories and events, astrological events, etc, taken out of context, chopped up and rearranged to the stories billions of people believe to be the absolute truth/word of their God.

Once you read between the lines, so to speak, of all these religious books, you understand their true meaning. David goes into detail with several of these texts and scriptures exposing their true meaning in his books. Once you know the true meaning, it's pure logic to use them as arguments for backing up your claims.

[supertzar]

All those religious books are fairy tales. BUT! They're fairy tales derived from real tales, crafted into symbolic stories for us to take literally.

The story of Jesus for example, has been taken literally all over the world. Yet the story is symbolism. Symbolism for astrological events and things.

So Jesus is a fairy tale, not to be taken literally, but the symbolism is very true.

This is what all religion is based on. Real stories and events, astrological events, etc, taken out of context, chopped up and rearranged to the stories billions of people believe to be the absolute truth/word of their God.

Once you read between the lines, so to speak, of all these religious books, you understand their true meaning. David goes into detail with several of these texts and scriptures exposing their true meaning in his books. Once you know the true meaning, it's pure logic to use them as arguments for backing up your claims.

Is it irresponsible of the OP and Bensonz, etc. to ignore this answer to the question? I think so. I would like to see more intellectual accountability on the forum. I call it hit and run posting when someone abandons a thread after their claims are refuted. Let's not be hit and run posters.