View Full Version : whats the return?
millhouse
29-01-2009, 08:17 PM
I have been watching david on youtube where he talks about satanism and how the rituals allow evil 'gods to manifest into our reality, and how satanism is performed on a massive, massive scale , my question is why do these people do it in the first place? what do they get out of it? and if you can get evil 'beings' to appear why cant you get 'good' beings to come into our realm?
just a few thoughts!
Ta
halleyscomet
02-02-2009, 05:26 PM
I have been watching david on youtube where he talks about satanism and how the rituals allow evil 'gods to manifest into our reality, and how satanism is performed on a massive, massive scale , my question is why do these people do it in the first place? what do they get out of it? and if you can get evil 'beings' to appear why cant you get 'good' beings to come into our realm?
just a few thoughts!
Ta
The short answer is "They don't"
Claims of people causing demons to materialize are old. While devoid of any basis in reality they're great for drumming up fear, which in turn fosters obedience. It's ironic that David is using unfounded claims of Satanism to drum up a following in much the same way people on this board accuse governments of using fear to coerce obedience.
the general idea is that if you tell a lie often enough, no matter how absurd that lie is, people will start to believe it.
themime
03-02-2009, 09:39 PM
The short answer is "They don't"
Claims of people causing demons to materialize are old. While devoid of any basis in reality they're great for drumming up fear, which in turn fosters obedience. It's ironic that David is using unfounded claims of Satanism to drum up a following in much the same way people on this board accuse governments of using fear to coerce obedience.
the general idea is that if you tell a lie often enough, no matter how absurd that lie is, people will start to believe it.
What if I told you I'd seen one... a demon I mean, would you dismiss it out of hand without knowing me?
Or would you keep an open mind?
:)
halleyscomet
04-02-2009, 04:04 PM
What if I told you I'd seen one... a demon I mean, would you dismiss it out of hand without knowing me?
Or would you keep an open mind?
:)
I'd ask for your evidence.
themime
04-02-2009, 04:51 PM
I'd ask for your evidence.
Alas empirical evidence and anecdotal personal experience are poor bed fellows but I'd be happy to PM you the details if you like.
halleyscomet
04-02-2009, 05:28 PM
Alas empirical evidence and anecdotal personal experience are poor bed fellows but I'd be happy to PM you the details if you like.
The problem is anecdotal personal experience isn't really "evidence" in any sense of the word. There are far too many factors that can influence personal perception. For starters, sleep deprivation, stress, drugs, illness and mental disorders can all cause vibrant hallucinations. I had a nasty intestinal bug and a raging fever last week that gave me some vibrant dreams that, had I not know what they were, could have been mistaken for a supernatural or extraterrestrial experience.
Ultimately, proof of the supernatural is by its very definition impossible. Once you can prove something it ceases to be supernatural, but becomes an observable natural phenomenon. I don't doubt the existence of demons. I happen to believe they exist. I also respect the opinion of anyone who, in the absence of proof of their existence takes an agnostic view of their existance, or says that in the absence of proof, they must conclude they don't exist.
themime
04-02-2009, 05:55 PM
The problem is anecdotal personal experience isn't really "evidence" in any sense of the word. There are far too many factors that can influence personal perception. For starters, sleep deprivation, stress, drugs, illness and mental disorders can all cause vibrant hallucinations. I had a nasty intestinal bug and a raging fever last week that gave me some vibrant dreams that, had I not know what they were, could have been mistaken for a supernatural or extraterrestrial experience.
Ultimately, proof of the supernatural is by its very definition impossible. Once you can prove something it ceases to be supernatural, but becomes an observable natural phenomenon. I don't doubt the existence of demons. I happen to believe they exist. I also respect the opinion of anyone who, in the absence of proof of their existence takes an agnostic view of their existance, or says that in the absence of proof, they must conclude they don't exist.
The argument from personal incredulity as expressed in the last few lines of your post would restrict a persons world view to mass consensus and as another person witnessed the event separately would that not then validate it as real? At which tipping point does a personal experience become accepted reality?
BTW thanks for taking the time to reply.
halleyscomet
04-02-2009, 06:09 PM
At which tipping point does a personal experience become accepted reality
To an extent it depends upon the nature of the claim. If someone says "I got up and watched the sunrise" there's no particular reason to doubt them. It's a reasonable claim about known phenomena. If however they say "I saw a UFO at the Obama inauguration" you're going to need proof beyond a personal account. Extreme claims demand extreme proof. To be honest I don't think personal experiences can EVER be taken as proof for extreme claims. To be blunt people make things up. If we took personal experience as evidence every fly by night scam artist claiming to talk to God or to have psychic powers would be able to fleece people with abandon.
Personal experience is too subjective and prone to bias to be used as "proof" of anything requiring a paradigm shift.
themime
04-02-2009, 06:21 PM
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here as we seem to have reached an impasse on the necessary level of and type of evidence needed to validate personal experience.
:)
astrochicken
04-02-2009, 07:44 PM
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here as we seem to have reached an impasse on the necessary level of and type of evidence needed to validate personal experience.
:)
LOL... i love that line.
This is where you ask "ah.. you love that line do you?... PROVE IT"
@halleyscomet .. take a wee leap of faith and just let the right side of your brain run havoc for a couple of days.
Do things spontaneously solely for the reason that you feel it might be a good idea despite what your logic is telling you.
Avoid making lists.
Try and limit your usage of the word "proof" to perhaps every 3rd post..
Really. It's fun.
I think the question you're asking is what basically happens to people who
get too involved in this, or cross a certain line? They don't control these
evil entities or gain their power, but just the opposite. They become pawns
or vessels to be used for power or pleasure or play. I also think the difference
between good and evil is this- evil will turn on itself! (and not for the good)
halleyscomet
11-02-2009, 03:29 PM
evil will turn on itself! (and not for the good)
How can a house divided against itself stand?
Is not the prevalence of evil to a certain extent evidence that it is NOT divided against itself?
sorath
11-02-2009, 03:40 PM
http://www.marquee.co.kr/admin/product/batho-return.jpg
A house is not divided if their are enough minions among them and recruiting is done
on a monumental scale. The highest in power in a pyramid protect each other, just
like on this planet.
chaos reigns supreme only at certain levels. there is a method in the madness, even if it is difficult to fathom. if you seek to walk that path and find yourself chewed up and spat out, you are either unworthy, a pion, plebian or worse, or you are mistakedly treading the wrong path. seek not lest ye find the truth.
Actually there is nothing evil, just the absence of good, or less goodness.
Just as there is no darkness, only the absence of light. No cold, only less
heat or warmth. Evil is just a term, a word, in a relative sense. There may
be entities that deem us less good (evil), because of our ignorance. But
when used for personal gain, causing harm, it is relatively evil.
i actualy kind of agree with you. kind of.
halleyscomet
11-02-2009, 10:42 PM
Actually there is nothing evil, just the absence of good, or less goodness.
Just as there is no darkness, only the absence of light. No cold, only less
heat or warmth. Evil is just a term, a word, in a relative sense. There may
be entities that deem us less good (evil), because of our ignorance. But
when used for personal gain, causing harm, it is relatively evil.
By that logic Hitler wasn't evil, he just wasn't very good.
Everything's relative. To me, Hitler wasn't anything. I wasn't born yet. If I
had been affected by him negatively, I would call him very un-good. I play
a computer game called Heroes of Might & Magic where creatures you have
to defeat may join you for greater glory (for free), or you might have to pay
a large sum of money for them to join you (if you have the money). It's your
choice, fight them and they're evil. Join them and they're good. Ignore them
and they don't exist.
halleyscomet
12-02-2009, 12:12 AM
Everything's relative. To me, Hitler wasn't anything. I wasn't born yet. If I
had been affected by him negatively, I would call him very un-good. I play
a computer game called Heroes of Might & Magic where creatures you have
to defeat may join you for greater glory (for free), or you might have to pay
a large sum of money for them to join you (if you have the money). It's your
choice, fight them and they're evil. Join them and they're good. Ignore them
and they don't exist.
So according to you, someone's evil is only relevant if it personally effects you?
I'm sure Hitler was evil to alot of people. He didn't start out that way. We're
all tempted or possessed I think at some point. Make your own decisions.
halleyscomet
12-02-2009, 03:53 PM
I'm sure Hitler was evil to alot of people. He didn't start out that way. We're
all tempted or possessed I think at some point. Make your own decisions.
I think I picked a poor example with Hitler. He WAS bad from the get go. He was a hateful, racist bastard form the beginning. The fact that he was the result of generations of inbreeding didn't help matters either. While being partially castrated and rendered impotent by a bomb shell in World War I made things worse, he was already going down a path of bloodshed and destruction.