Near Death Experinces/ Consciousness

[infinitec]

This has been a subject of great interest for me, and is a large part of david's explanation of "Consciousness" in some books and lectures such as his famous speech at brixton.

Basically my comment is this.. there are millions of recorded near death experiences every year by ppl all across the world. Many of these ppl change their life totally as a result b/c these experiences have such prominant effecs on their lives... now.. i'm sure the thought of life after death, a beautiful light and eterernal bliss sounds great but i like to be more critical and want others to give me their input...

science has shown that when the brain looses oxygen it goes into a state of shock which spawns a chemical surge in the area of our memory (hence, the symptoms of seeing relatives and bright lighes and a tunnel)... infact such incidents have been tessted in closed situations by jet figher pilots who black out in the famous spinning "High G" tunnels.

now in terms of near death, there have been cases of people who have such experiences and visually see their doctor operating on them when they are deemed "clinically" dead... such incidents have happnd where patient recalls the conversation between doctors and nurses and the room and procedures made to revive them...

so where do i stand?? with science? or with david? .. seems like science is the solid answer but some of these experiences cannot be explained by science...

i'm confused what do you think (sorry for the long post and typos)!

[smariot]

I think that without a constant supply of oxygen, the brain stops functioning almost instantly, which would make experiencing anything, hallucination or not, pretty damn difficult.

I'm told NDEs are false memories that the brain creates when it starts functioning again, but I'm not really convinced.

[hagbard_celine]

I think that without a constant supply of oxygen, the brain stops functioning almost instantly, which would make experiencing anything, hallucination or not, pretty damn difficult.

I'm told NDEs are false memories that the brain creates when it starts functioning again, but I'm not really convinced.


Me neither.

Infitec, when the heart stops the brain shuts down almost instantly. The EEG readout of the brain's electrical activity "flatlines" within seconds. There's no way that anyone with a flat EEG could have these kinds of experiences according to our current understanding of neuroscience. There's also no way that they could have them during recovery because the brain is like a bruised limb in that period. It restarts very slowly and episodically. During that time the patient's thinking is very confused and indistinct. By contrast the NDE is highly lucid.

It's not just case of standing "with science or with David". Many hard scientists share David's view; an increasing number. This is article is typical of an established scientific view which rejects the materialistc model: http://thepsychictimes.com/articles/fenwick.htm

[i_am]

now in terms of near death, there have been cases of people who have such experiences and visually see their doctor operating on them when they are deemed "clinically" dead... such incidents have happnd where patient recalls the conversation between doctors and nurses and the room and procedures made to revive them...

so where do i stand?? with science? or with david? .. seems like science is the solid answer but some of these experiences cannot be explained by science...

i'm confused what do you think (sorry for the long post and typos)!

Science is black or white. If they cannot explain it then it is impossible. Don't stand with either. Do your research and make up your own mind while keeping an open mind.

I personally have been out of my body watching but did not see lights or tunnels. I do know someone who has though and they did change their whole attitude to life as described by many. Did my own experience change me? You betcha :p I had a whole different outlook and believe it was the kick up the butt I needed to get me back on track.

[ashyr]

thats right. i agree with "IAM" thats where david makes the statement of similarity between science and religion. both believing that were not in control of ourselves really.

i think its bogus. just because everyone doesnt experience it doesnt make it impossible. also how everything has a memory imprint or a conciousness. that death is not the end, just a transfer of energy from one vessel to something else.

[hagbard_celine]

The idea that the brain can create "false memories" seems outrageous when you consider that it has to do this when it's shut down and oxygen starved. Then later on when in recovery and consciousness is confused and vague. Science insists that all perception is processed by the activity of the neuronet. That makes perfect sense for normal awake perception, and even dreams in sleep. So how is it possible for perception to continue at all when the neuronet fails? The only answer is that the perceiving observer-mind operates in other places than the neuronet.

[e7304]

This is a subject that will never be resolved, by our modern "science". I experienced a NDE/OBE many years ago BUT from what I have read about over time, I have not come across anything similar. Many parts of the "classical" NDE were absent and it was rather boring after what others have experienced. I have read about "sleep paralysis", "false memory", "hypnogogic states" and other explanations but they are all, to put it plainly, shite.

When a doctor tells you that what you experienced was not real but just your mind playing tricks and you try to explain that your "faculties" were not only on full power but during the experience you knew exactly where your "body" was and even the time of night and you questioned everything you witnessed at the time of it happening.......its frustrating getting this blank look from the "medical expert" but in hindsight understandable.

My gripe is the way medical opinion is totally dismissive of anything that isnt "proven" by medical science or allowed under the RULES. I see medical science as more like religion in its thinking. That is faith comes before anything else, and if anyone steps out of line, the "bishops" of the Medical Associations step in. After all, you cannot tread on someones toes who has that many letters behind their name, you could actually embarrass them and destroy their "immaculate" reputation. Anyway reductionists are good for big pharma.

This pure arrogance by scientific "experts" can be seen today with GM crops and other technologies that they believe they have God like powers and God like certainty in what they are doing. Makes me really mad with their total monoploly on so called "reality". Sorry , but a bit of a rant but cant stop.

Today we can see many of these, what I would like to call "cults". I am not being a ludite here but there is only one science in my mind and that is mathematics. It has its close siblings in chemistry and physics but after that, all our "sciences" become based on rule of established faith. I cant be sure but I think David has said something similar, but my problem is that I have read too much and cant recall who's ideas I may have adopted in making sense of things.

Colin Wilson had an influence while I was trying to get my head around what I went through.

After being introduced to books like "The Hidden History of the Human Race" many years ago, I started to see how the establishment ruled by faith and not fact, where evidence was suppressed and even destroyed to maintain the status quo.(there are many critics of Cremo and Thompson but its the facts that interest me, not their religion).

This cultish behaviour could be argued to cover Psychiatric fields especially but most human sciences.
This is why I think the thinking of our so called experts will never get outside of their boxes. The so called psychic realm is almost considered a career ending act. The only hope lies in the quantum areas of physics, as I see it.

These "quirks" that so many people have has attracted many "serious" researchers over the last 200 years but will not be acepted until some high priest in human science makes a stance. In the ever expanding privatised "non public" science, I think that they take these "psychic" topics very seriously. But I cant be certain.

Anyway, these ARE life changing. What you thought, what you EXPECTED, what you KNEW, all fall down. Catharsis, I think is the term to use.

If it was not for what I experienced, I would not be on/reading forums like this today.

[ashyr]

ill read this when i get a chance =D

[hagbard_celine]

This is a subject that will never be resolved, by our modern "science". I experienced a NDE/OBE many years ago BUT from what I have read about over time, I have not come across anything similar. Many parts of the "classical" NDE were absent and it was rather boring after what others have experienced. I have read about "sleep paralysis", "false memory", "hypnogogic states" and other explanations but they are all, to put it plainly, shite.

When a doctor tells you that what you experienced was not real but just your mind playing tricks and you try to explain that your "faculties" were not only on full power but during the experience you knew exactly where your "body" was and even the time of night and you questioned everything you witnessed at the time of it happening.......its frustrating getting this blank look from the "medical expert" but in hindsight understandable.

My gripe is the way medical opinion is totally dismissive of anything that isnt "proven" by medical science or allowed under the RULES. I see medical science as more like religion in its thinking. That is faith comes before anything else, and if anyone steps out of line, the "bishops" of the Medical Associations step in. After all, you cannot tread on someones toes who has that many letters behind their name, you could actually embarrass them and destroy their "immaculate" reputation. Anyway reductionists are good for big pharma.

This pure arrogance by scientific "experts" can be seen today with GM crops and other technologies that they believe they have God like powers and God like certainty in what they are doing. Makes me really mad with their total monoploly on so called "reality". Sorry , but a bit of a rant but cant stop.

Today we can see many of these, what I would like to call "cults". I am not being a ludite here but there is only one science in my mind and that is mathematics. It has its close siblings in chemistry and physics but after that, all our "sciences" become based on rule of established faith. I cant be sure but I think David has said something similar, but my problem is that I have read too much and cant recall who's ideas I may have adopted in making sense of things.

Colin Wilson had an influence while I was trying to get my head around what I went through.

After being introduced to books like "The Hidden History of the Human Race" many years ago, I started to see how the establishment ruled by faith and not fact, where evidence was suppressed and even destroyed to maintain the status quo.(there are many critics of Cremo and Thompson but its the facts that interest me, not their religion).

This cultish behaviour could be argued to cover Psychiatric fields especially but most human sciences.
This is why I think the thinking of our so called experts will never get outside of their boxes. The so called psychic realm is almost considered a career ending act. The only hope lies in the quantum areas of physics, as I see it.

These "quirks" that so many people have has attracted many "serious" researchers over the last 200 years but will not be acepted until some high priest in human science makes a stance. In the ever expanding privatised "non public" science, I think that they take these "psychic" topics very seriously. But I cant be certain.

Anyway, these ARE life changing. What you thought, what you EXPECTED, what you KNEW, all fall down. Catharsis, I think is the term to use.

If it was not for what I experienced, I would not be on/reading forums like this today.

Andrew Newburg who wrote the book Why God won't Go Away said something about how science dismisses these experiences: "We all have a strong feeling that our everyday waking reality is real. When we have a dream it can seem very real, but when we wake up we can say 'OK, that was just a dream' and it doesn't carry the same 'realness' weight as waking reality. The thing about NDE's and profound mystical experiences is that those who have them describe them as 'more real' than our everyday waking reality. How can you use neuroscience to demonstrate how real their event was? Well, you can't."

If the skeptics expect you to deny that your experience was real then you might as well deny everything that happens to you in your whole life!... It's easier! :cool:

[graflok]

science has shown ...

I think I found your problem right there.

"Science" is owned by governments and multi-national corporations (same thing,
really).

The only thing that "science" shows is how sheep should hold still while they're
being fleeced. ;)

[ashyr]

The only thing that "science" shows is how sheep should hold still while they're
being fleeced.

im going to quote you on that.