Are all who purport to be Masons, actually Masons?

[the_duke]

In response to several sub-threads floating around, are all people who call themself Freemasons actually Freemasons?

There are, outside of the United Grand Lodge of England and other associated regular Grand Lodges, other groups that purport to be Masonic.

They follow the same traditions, rituals and modes of acceptance, but because they are not 'Regular' are they actually Freemasons?

Is Freemasonry a philosophy that can be followed in any way the follower wishes, or is it actually a Fraternal society that exists within the confines of the Grand Lodge of England?

I invite all sensible discussion.

[hewrote]

best to ask a Mason, or at least one purporting to be a Mason.

[banoyes]

In response to several sub-threads floating around, are all people who call themself Freemasons actually Freemasons?

There are, outside of the United Grand Lodge of England and other associated regular Grand Lodges, other groups that purport to be Masonic.

They follow the same traditions, rituals and modes of acceptance, but because they are not 'Regular' are they actually Freemasons?

Is Freemasonry a philosophy that can be followed in any way the follower wishes, or is it actually a Fraternal society that exists within the confines of the Grand Lodge of England?

I invite all sensible discussion.
Every single masion is the same as the next
There is no distinction in the real world
No One , except sick puppy maisons, gives a turd about your "distinctions"
If you call yourself a maison and belong to a lodge
You are a Maison

[krakhead]

Every single masion is the same as the next
There is no distinction in the real world
No One , except sick puppy maisons, gives a turd about your "distinctions"
If you call yourself a maison and belong to a lodge
You are a Maison

Why do you insist on mis-spelling 'mason'?

[stewart edwards]

Who is more of a mason:-

1. Chap 1 who found the itch in his heart, listened to it, scratched it, actively works on himself daily, over the years smoothing his ashlar, helping his community because he feels it is the right thing for him to do. Or

2. Chap 2 who joined a lodge because he was asked to by workmates and who enjoys his social club, but who does not know what it means to properly prepare yourself in your heart, is not interested anyway, and enjoyes his social club. He may know the ritual word perfect, but has no interest in understanding it far less applying it to his life. The rough and smooth ashlars are just blocks in the lodge room, and it is all mumery, the price of entry so to speak, until the bar opens.

Two extreme positions I give you, but what is more important the proper preparation and the Practicing of the Craft or being a member in a specific lodge grouping?

[banoyes]

Why do you insist on mis-spelling 'mason'?
Why do you care???

[keystone]

Why do you insist on mis-spelling 'mason'?Because he thinks it's clever and he's trying to wind people up.

[grandsecretary]

In response to several sub-threads floating around, are all people who call themself Freemasons actually Freemasons?

There are, outside of the United Grand Lodge of England and other associated regular Grand Lodges, other groups that purport to be Masonic.

They follow the same traditions, rituals and modes of acceptance, but because they are not 'Regular' are they actually Freemasons?

Is Freemasonry a philosophy that can be followed in any way the follower wishes, or is it actually a Fraternal society that exists within the confines of the Grand Lodge of England?

I invite all sensible discussion.

This argument has been going on for 300 years. You are a new, young, enthusiastic, and loyal United Grand Lodge of England freemason.

What you MUST consider is that Freemasonry, real, genuine, regular, Freemasonry did NOT begin in the tiny back room of a London Ale-house on the 24th June 1717. It is many hundreds of years older than even our Grand Lodge, The Grand Lodge of All England (AD 926).

Now, if you are going to try to convince people here, that Regular Freemasonry was invented by a process of magic spontaneous combustion over a few pints and a sandwich in a pub rather than in the Abbeys, Cathedrals and Churches of Europe, then this is a waste of time.

We know what you have been told, but this discussion is meaningless if you are not prepared to study, weigh the evidence, and make up your own mind on this very deep subject.

I commend you for your enthusiasm, and your loyalty, but we have all been there before (ad nauseum). Neither you nor we have time here to educate you in the origins of the Craft. This is NOT a Masonic forum.

Sincerely

Peter

P.S. It is not IMHO acceptable to use the photograph of a Very Worthy Past Grand Master for your Avatar. It gives the impression that you are far more experienced in the world of Freemasonry than you are. Why not use a photograph of yourself, which will let us know who we are talking to.

[krakhead]

Why do you care???

Because I'm the caring sort! :)

And I thought you may be using a really old, traditional, spelling of it or something like that, maybe I was giving you too much credit?

[banoyes]

Because I'm the caring sort! :)

And I thought you may be using a really old, traditional, spelling of it or something like that, maybe I was giving you too much credit?
Not back to your infamous "humor" are we.
you do know it's only funny to you

[armoured_amazon]

Why do you insist on mis-spelling 'mason'?

Isn't a maison a house? :D

[grandsecretary]

Not back to your infamous "humor" are we.
you do know it's only funny to you

No, I thought it was funny. You have a humor gap which needs filling in!

[banoyes]

Isn't a maison a house? :D
It is tonal..meant to be spoken

[grandsecretary]

It is tonal..meant to be spoken

No it isn't, it's you being stubborn again and not having the common courtesy to spell it correctly when it is pointed out to you.

[keystone]

Back on topic then. :D

In response to several sub-threads floating around, are all people who call themself Freemasons actually Freemasons?No

There are, outside of the United Grand Lodge of England and other associated regular Grand Lodges, other groups that purport to be Masonic.

They follow the same traditions, rituals and modes of acceptance, but because they are not 'Regular' are they actually Freemasons?Yes.

Is Freemasonry a philosophy that can be followed in any way the follower wishes,........Yes.

......... or is it actually a Fraternal society that exists within the confines of the Grand Lodge of England?No.

I invite all sensible discussion.Questions answered - I hope.

[banoyes]

No it isn't, it's you being stubborn again and not having the common courtesy to spell it correctly when it is pointed out to you.
I explained this< I think in reference to your pal keystones yackking
quite awhile back
as far as spelling
if yuo cna raed tihs, yuo hvae a sgtrane mnid too

Cna yuo raed tihs? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can.

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, i t dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae.

So Grand Peter , I will jtus sellp Maison as I pesle

[keystone]

I explained this< I think in reference to your pal keystones yackkingNow, now you start to sound just like Joe. Don't want to end up where he is atm now do we? :D

quite awhile back
as far as spelling
if yuo cna raed tihs, yuo hvae a sgtrane mnid too

Cna yuo raed tihs? Olny 55 plepoe out of 100 can.

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, i t dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae.

So Grand Peter , I will jtus sellp Maison as I pesleActually you are wrong. It's a far higher percentage than that. But, never mind, how nice to Ben has a sense of humour. I was beginning to think it had been removed. :D

[banoyes]

Back on topic then. :D

No

Yes.

Yes.

No.

Questions answered - I hope.
LOL
These fine fellows think this is a Freemason discussion forum
Thats what they do, thats always the Agenda

[keystone]

LOL
These fine fellows think this is a Freemason discussion forum
Thats what they do, thats always the AgendaWTF are you on about. He asked questions. I've answered simply. Thats right it isn't an FM forum but even that';s not original someone else said it earlier. At least I am on topic unlike your thread wrecking nonsense.

[eternal_spirit]

Heard the one about some Jews say other Jews are not true Jews. Christians say other Christians are not true Christians, the Catholics take most rap from other Christians who accuse them of being false. :rolleyes:

Same can be said for other religions too.

[banoyes]

No it isn't, it's you being stubborn again and not having the common courtesy to spell it correctly when it is pointed out to you.
Grand Peter remark earlier
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47539&page=6

I am well aware on that
but I come from the Dylan school
and the word "maison" is tonal #59

but to a cowan it is simply a slip of the typing fingers.
or whatever, it is no big deal
it is a joke when applied verbally
it's tonal like I said
If it offends you, I couldn't be happier #68

Quote:
Originally Posted by banoyes View Post
It is tonal..meant to be spoken
No it isn't, it's you being stubborn again and not having the common courtesy to spell it correctly when it is pointed out to you

Not one thing a maison says can be trusted

[keystone]

Not one thing a maison says can be trusted
I'm not inclined to believe that you are not going to be able persuade people of the power of this argument by sheer force of incantation I'm afraid.

But just in case you do I think you are a really, really nice chap.

[the_duke]

This argument has been going on for 300 years. You are a new, young, enthusiastic, and loyal United Grand Lodge of England freemason.

What you MUST consider is that Freemasonry, real, genuine, regular, Freemasonry did NOT begin in the tiny back room of a London Ale-house on the 24th June 1717. It is many hundreds of years older than even our Grand Lodge, The Grand Lodge of All England (AD 926).

Now, if you are going to try to convince people here, that Regular Freemasonry was invented by a process of magic spontaneous combustion over a few pints and a sandwich in a pub rather than in the Abbeys, Cathedrals and Churches of Europe, then this is a waste of time.

We know what you have been told, but this discussion is meaningless if you are not prepared to study, weigh the evidence, and make up your own mind on this very deep subject.

I commend you for your enthusiasm, and your loyalty, but we have all been there before (ad nauseum). Neither you nor we have time here to educate you in the origins of the Craft. This is NOT a Masonic forum.

Sincerely

Peter

P.S. It is not IMHO acceptable to use the photograph of a Very Worthy Past Grand Master for your Avatar. It gives the impression that you are far more experienced in the world of Freemasonry than you are. Why not use a photograph of yourself, which will let us know who we are talking to.

Peter, I find your patronising attempt at trying to asume that I am some wet behind the ears young whipper-snapper of some description quite weak and see-through. No, I am not a 50 year vet, No I am not the Grand Master, No I do not purport to know everything, but I know that what I am saying and discussing here is valid and worthy of discussion. If you are a Grand Secretary of an 'alternative' Grand Lodge...you should expect the discussion to be discussed in a public arena and you should be willing to defend the arguments put to you rather than trying to pull down the authority of those asking questions so as it seems that those arguments lack veracity. I am J.W. In one of my Lodges, I am Secretary (a real one that is) in another, besides holding varying offices in other Orders.

I do apologise, you are correct, I did not read your website thoroughly..I will endeavour to do so!

In life I believe what I know, what I understand, and what I have researched...not what I have been told. I am a scholar and a professional and I am quite able to discern my own answers from the evidence presented. And yes I understand the history of UGLE...I have read the same books as you and also went on the same Grand Lodge tour!

It is quite obvious that you were actually a UGLE Mason of some length most probably who has become disillusioned to some extent. Perhaps this is through Lodge politics or perhaps you didn't get the Provincial Honours you wanted...I don't know. What I am trying to get to grips with is why you think it is ok to style yourself a Grand anything when that has not been bestowed upon you by anyone of any standing in any Masonic circles worldwide. Surely you must understand that it is peer acceptance that makes you a Grand Secretary...not a self-styled title, a few guys and a website!?! In the same way that anybody can go and by a Karate suit and whack a Black belt around their waste...but it's only when that Black belt is given to you by other Black belts that you are truely one yourself.

Also, there is nothing worse on Forums when people try to pull apart the minutiae of the greater point that is trying to be conveyed, like for example 99.99999% as opposed to 99.9999%...it's a waste of time to argue semantics. We both know what the root of the argument is.

P.s. IMHO it is not acceptable to start a Grand Lodge, even if based on a constitution from history, and give yourself Grand titles.
P.P.s Surely a man of your standing must have heard of the saying 'Assumption is the Mother of all Fuck ups'?

[the_duke]

Plus, I find it very fitting that your website has the word 'fallen' written in the middle of it.

[banoyes]

. What I am trying to get to grips with is why you think it is ok to style yourself a Grand anything when that has not been bestowed upon you by anyone of any standing in any Masonic circles worldwide.


The hierarchy, which doesn't exist,
Clueless
funny they know all this maison stuff
but know nothing off how it relates to the world
Oh It's all still just a coincidence

[stewart edwards]

the_duke

I wonder if I could chase you up for yoru opinion on my question to you. I realise that it is two extremes but I am curious what counts for most in your eyes.Who is more of a mason:-

1. Chap 1 who found the itch in his heart, listened to it, scratched it, actively works on himself daily, over the years smoothing his ashlar, helping his community because he feels it is the right thing for him to do. Or

2. Chap 2 who joined a lodge because he was asked to by workmates and who enjoys his social club, but who does not know what it means to properly prepare yourself in your heart, is not interested anyway, and enjoyes his social club. He may know the ritual word perfect, but has no interest in understanding it far less applying it to his life. The rough and smooth ashlars are just blocks in the lodge room, and it is all mumery, the price of entry so to speak, until the bar opens.

Two extreme positions I give you, but what is more important the proper preparation and the Practicing of the Craft or being a member in a specific lodge grouping?

[banoyes]

the_duke

I wonder if I could chase you up for yoru opinion on my question to you. I realise that it is two extremes but I am curious what counts for most in your eyes.
They both are idiots
as are any who care a bit about Freemason propaganda
TAKE this crap to a freemason site
ask a maison
you must have heard that before

[keystone]

They both are idiots
as are any who care a bit about Freemason propaganda
TAKE this crap to a freemason site
ask a maison
you must have heard that before

Well you obviously care otherwise you wouldn't keep posting this mantra! Or if you don't care why keep posting without adding anything whatsoever to the thread apart from noise. That's trollish behaviour if you don't mind me saying so.

[the_duke]

Who is more of a mason:-

1. Chap 1 who found the itch in his heart, listened to it, scratched it, actively works on himself daily, over the years smoothing his ashlar, helping his community because he feels it is the right thing for him to do. Or

2. Chap 2 who joined a lodge because he was asked to by workmates and who enjoys his social club, but who does not know what it means to properly prepare yourself in your heart, is not interested anyway, and enjoyes his social club. He may know the ritual word perfect, but has no interest in understanding it far less applying it to his life. The rough and smooth ashlars are just blocks in the lodge room, and it is all mumery, the price of entry so to speak, until the bar opens.

Two extreme positions I give you, but what is more important the proper preparation and the Practicing of the Craft or being a member in a specific lodge grouping?

Sorry, I did mean to answer this...I think it is a very good question.

I'm not sure which one is right. I think that Freemasonry has only ever been used as a means to better themself in a moral and intellectual capacity by a minority, and you're correct, you do have many many Freemasons who can memorise reams of ritual without ever understanding a word of what or why they are saying it.

I think for it to be the first of these two it then means that Freemasonry is a Philosophy, a Religion, or a Lifestyle choice of some sort. A seperate entity, if you will, something bigger and better than Humans and the United Grand Lodge of England that we are just harnessing. I'm not sure this is the case, some would like it to be and some definitely think it is, but I think it's being used as an alternative to Church by some purists, somehow mythologising and agrandising what they do, but this is not what Freemasonry is about at all. You can better yourself and 'smooth your Ashlar' as a person inside and outside of Freemasonry...you do not need Freemasonry for that, it can only compliment that endeavour.

Freemasonry is a Fraternal Society!

The second I'm afraid is probably closer to where Freemasonry is heading these days. Reams of Masons haven't got a clue, and I'm not talking about all the deep dark secrets that most people on this forum believe to exist, but from just the stuff in front of their eyes. It is just a posh working man's club for many. So I guess there has to be something done before Freemasonry is watered down irrepairably.

In my humble opinion you need social structures and order in life to stop humans reverting to our animal state and running around killing, stealing...etc. I also believe you need peer assement to be of any worth in this society we live in, for example I could call my self the King of England but because I am not recognised by other weighty and notable figures as so, I am not called King. With Freemasonry if we did not have Regularity then there would be 1000 Grand Lodges and 1000 Grand Secretaries out there spouting their own version of Fremasonry, and it would really just water down what Freemasonry is and what it is about. You need regularity to stop Freemasonry being perverted for individual people's needs. take 'The Secretary' for example...He and a chap called John Gordon Graves were probably not getting where they wanted to go in Freemasonry so they started their own Grand Lodge so as they could get where they are going...just so happens he has now reached the lofty heights of Grand Secretary! This is everything Freemasonry is not about...this is the scurge of Freemasonry...Title Chasers!!!

Freemasonry is about smoothing that Ashlar for many many years and working for and earning that position you have received within the institution...this is the same anywhere.

[banoyes]

Freemasonry is about smoothing that Ashlar for many many years and working for and earning that position you have received within the institution...this is the same anywhere.
Look at this fine fellow
Changing evil freemasonry into some kind of spiritual cleansing
These guys are so use to delusions
they think they are real
must be why , not one active maison,can tell the truth about anything

[stewart edwards]

The_duke

Thank you for such a considered reponse. It genuinely is appreciated.Reams of Masons haven't got a clue, and I'm not talking about all the deep dark secrets that most people on this forum believe to exist, but from just the stuff in front of their eyes. It is just a posh working man's club for many. So I guess there has to be something done before Freemasonry is watered down irrepairably.Totally agree. Hopefully one day the inner courage will be found to tackle it.

[unusual_suspect]

Look at this fine fellow
Changing evil freemasonry into some kind of spiritual cleansing
These guys are so use to delusions
they think they are real
must be why , not one active maison,can tell the truth about anything

Very sorry to unrinate on your bonfire. But I have had personal experience of the Western Mystical Tradition (not Masonic though), and it is a sort of spiritual cleansing.

Why are you getting so wound up about this?

[banoyes]

Very sorry to unrinate on your bonfire. But I have had personal experience of the Western Mystical Tradition (not Masonic though), and it is a sort of spiritual cleansing.

Why are you getting so wound up about this?
Did you not see the Masionic part
Who cares about Western Mystical Tradition
The Freemason part is key
and you (not Masonic though)
you urinated on yourself

[unusual_suspect]

Did you not see the Masionic part
Who cares about Western Mystical Tradition
The Freemason part is key
and you (not Masonic though)
you urinated on yourself[/QUOTE]

Well I thought It was all pretty much one and the same and that Freemasonry is part of the Western Mystical Tradition as far as I can see. Much of it seems to have it's roots in th East anyway.

I am just curious as to why you seem to be so obsessed with the Masons, I think you secretly want to join :p

you urinated on yourself

How dare you take the piss out of my embarrassing medical condition lol

[the_duke]

I am just curious as to why you seem to be so obsessed with the Masons, I think you secretly want to join :p

Why do so many people spend so much time doing Freemasonry down!?! Is that all you have to do with your life!!! Of course I will spend my time defending it...I am a Freemason...but why constructively deconstruct something!?!

I agree, they probably just want to join!!! It's like the girl in the playground that you were too scared to ask on a date so you were mean to her instead in some vain attempt at being within her sphere!!!

[grandsecretary]

1) I do apologise, you are correct, I did not read your website thoroughly..I will endeavour to do so!

2) And yes I understand the history of UGLE...I have read the same books as you ...

3) It is quite obvious that you were actually a UGLE Mason of some length most probably who has become disillusioned to some extent. Perhaps this is through Lodge politics or perhaps you didn't get the Provincial Honours you wanted...I don't know.

4) What I am trying to get to grips with is why you think it is ok to style yourself a Grand anything when that has not been bestowed upon you by anyone of any standing in any Masonic circles worldwide. Surely you must understand that it is peer acceptance that makes you a Grand Secretary ... not a self-styled title, a few guys and a website!?!

5) Also, there is nothing worse on Forums when people try to pull apart the minutiae of the greater point that is trying to be conveyed, like for example 99.99999% as opposed to 99.9999%...it's a waste of time to argue semantics. We both know what the root of the argument is.

6) P.s. IMHO it is not acceptable to start a Grand Lodge, even if based on a constitution from history, and give yourself Grand titles.

7) P.P.s Surely a man of your standing must have heard of the saying 'Assumption is the Mother of all Fuck ups'?


1) Thank you, and please note that everything on the website is properly sourced and attributed.

2) I have provided a starter reading list in "masonic beliefes and practices", you cannot have read any of them otherwise you would have a different attitude.

3) I was Assistant Grand Secretary General of The Higher Degrees. However, we do not use any system of rank or past rank here. I am a Fellow of the Craft and nothing else. Grand Secretary is merely a job title, Secretary of the Grand Lodge is NOT a rank. As soon as I relinquish the post, I will revert to a simple Fellow of the Craft, and nothing else. It is hard for you to picture this as your Moderns freemasonry is based entirely on rank, inferiority/seniority. Ours is exactly the opposite, it is based upon equality.

4) You are not my peer.

"After the establishment of the Kilwinning and York Lodges (the jurisdiction and antiquity of the Grand Lodge of York over other English Lodges has invariably been acknowledged by the whole Fraternity), the principles of Freemasonry rapidly spread throughout both Kingdoms and several Lodges were erected in different parts of the island." (SOURCE: A Brief History of Lodge Mother Kilwinning No. 0, Grand Lodge of Scotland)

5) Yes, you believe that size is the only measure of success. That is because you do not understand that Freemasonry is a formal system of EXCLUSION, careful selection based upon strict criteria determined by The Constitutions of Masonrie. Not low standards, desparate recruitment, and an open door policy resulting in the mass INCLUSION of the profane.

Even here you are failing. Your standards are dropping faster than your membership which is now 12% of what it was in 1960.

6) We did not start a Grand Lodge. We revived the original Grand Lodge and we do not have Grand titles. You are judging us by your standards, a Grand Lodge on every street corner.

7) No I would not know such a phrase. Desparately low standards includes allowing people like you, a man who claims to be a Freemason, on an open public forum and who then uses filthy irreligious language. You are not a Freemason, whatever the UGLE tells you. Paying the subscriptions is not BEING a Freemason. You disgust me.

[noobcybot]

Dont nobody care about the Masons but Masons. Thinking about them too much will skew anyones view of the agenda.

[unusual_suspect]

Dont nobody care about the Masons but Masons. Thinking about them too much will skew anyones view of the agenda.

It gets a bit heated in the illuminati/secret societies forum doesn't it.

[banoyes]

you urinated on yourself

Well I thought It was all pretty much one and the same and that Freemasonry is part of the Western Mystical Tradition as far as I can see. Much of it seems to have it's roots in th East anyway.

I am just curious as to why you seem to be so obsessed with the Masons, I think you secretly want to join :p



How dare you take the piss out of my embarrassing medical condition lol
Can't say much to some who thinks Western Mystical Tradition and Freemasonry are the same

I think you are a Freemason

[abaddon]

In response to several sub-threads floating around, are all people who call themself Freemasons actually Freemasons?

I invite all sensible discussion.


I am saying true things that actually undermine you and your contrived 'Grand' position! You, are not a Freemason!


You are not a Freemason, whatever the UGLE tells you. Paying the subscriptions is not BEING a Freemason. You disgust me.


It gets a bit heated (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=614030&postcount=240) in the illuminati/secret societies forum doesn't it.

Oh well, back to the sticky!! (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14414&page=25)

Round and round and round and round and round and round and round and...

I'm trying to pull it

[stewart edwards]

That settles it, enough is enough, I now need Her Majesty the Queen to tell me that I have some Royal blood in me somewhere so that I can ask the Duke of Kent to propose me for his job when he retires.

(wish me luck - Keystone is that beads of sweat I see from your forehead;)):eek:

Seriously lads, get back to basics, open hearts, put the masonry back into Freemasonry. It really is not that difficult. If a pain in the ass like me can work it out and do it in his own life, you have no excuse not to.

[unusual_suspect]

Can't say much to some who thinks Western Mystical Tradition and Freemasonry are the same

I think you are a Freemason

Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, Martinism, Theosophy, Hermeticism etc etc, they are all part of the Western Mystical Tradition are they not? Why do you not think this to be the case?

I am not, have never been, nor probably ever will be a Freemason, besides, I am too tight to pay the membership dues :D

[keystone]

Oh well, back to the sticky!! (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14414&page=25)

Round and round and round and round and round and round and round and...Yes - this internecine argument is a total waste of bandwidth.

BTW could you ask Ben to start circling the other way please? He's making me dizzy. :D

[abaddon]

That settles it, enough is enough, Seriously lads, get back to basics, open hearts, put the masonry back into Freemasonry. It really is not that difficult..

Oh, but it is. You see,

we don't say that it is "a corruption of the older values". We say that it not Ancient Freemasonry at all.

I 'spose GLOA isn't ancient ancient either, but at least they didn't add in some funky stuffs that make it more exciting because original material was purposfully destroyed.

[unusual_suspect]

Yes - this internecine argument is a total waste of bandwidth.

BTW could you ask Ben to start circling the other way please? He's making me dizzy. :D

Is he a Maison? :D

[grandsecretary]

That settles it, enough is enough, I now need Her Majesty the Queen to tell me that I have some Royal blood in me somewhere so that I can ask the Duke of Kent to propose me for his job when he retires.

(wish me luck - Keystone is that beads of sweat I see from your forehead;)):eek:

Seriously lads, get back to basics, open hearts, put the masonry back into Freemasonry.

I will not allow unfounded attacks against The Grand Lodge of All England to go undefended, and neither will I allow the UGLE or any of its members pretend to speak for Freemasonry when they, and it, do not.

They have caused the damage, not us.

[grandsecretary]

Plus, I find it very fitting that your website has the word 'fallen' written in the middle of it.

Child.

[the_duke]

1) Thank you, and please note that everything on the website is properly sourced and attributed.

2) I have provided a starter reading list in "masonic beliefes and practices", you cannot have read any of them otherwise you would have a different attitude.

3) I was Assistant Grand Secretary General of The Higher Degrees. However, we do not use any system of rank or past rank here. I am a Fellow of the Craft and nothing else. Grand Secretary is merely a job title, Secretary of the Grand Lodge is NOT a rank. As soon as I relinquish the post, I will revert to a simple Fellow of the Craft, and nothing else. It is hard for you to picture this as your Moderns freemasonry is based entirely on rank, inferiority/seniority. Ours is exactly the opposite, it is based upon equality.

4) You are not my peer.



5) Yes, you believe that size is the only measure of success. That is because you do not understand that Freemasonry is a formal system of EXCLUSION, careful selection based upon strict criteria determined by The Constitutions of Masonrie. Not low standards, desparate recruitment, and an open door policy resulting in the mass INCLUSION of the profane.

Even here you are failing. Your standards are dropping faster than your membership which is now 12% of what it was in 1960.

6) We did not start a Grand Lodge. We revived the original Grand Lodge and we do not have Grand titles. You are judging us by your standards, a Grand Lodge on every street corner.

7) No I would not know such a phrase. Desparately low standards includes allowing people like you, a man who claims to be a Freemason, on an open public forum and who then uses filthy irreligious language. You are not a Freemason, whatever the UGLE tells you. Paying the subscriptions is not BEING a Freemason. You disgust me.

Well Peter, you certainly pulled me apart with those arguments...I honestly did think you would come back with more!!!

1) Just because something is sourced and referenced, it doesn't mean it is actually true, that is where peer assessment comes in...this is the first rule of academic research, who and what are your sources? If I wrote a book, would you necessarily just accept it because it is in written form? You show your academic naivity here.

2) Just because I have read something, doesn't necessarily dictate that I would have a different attitude, I have read such great works as the Bible, the Qur'an, the Communist Manifesto...etc. and do not think that these have moved me to think differently about how approach things...though their followers would probably insist they would!

3) In all fairness I do think there is too much rank chasing in the UGLE, but we all know why you started your Lodge...I bet some people think you are terribly important with your big title...call your self organisation administrator or something...not the exact same titles as very important people within an institution you say is 'based on rank'...do away with this system then! You have changed other things!

4) Unfortunately sir, you are my peer. We are both educated, middle class men with probably very similar lifestyles. You being middle aged, and me not, does not mean we are not peers.

5) In all fairness I do not believe size is a good thing. I believe that Freemasonry has become watered down with the '1.2.3 guys' who learn the handshakes, buy the rings, get pissed at the festive board and treat it like a working man's club. But then again this should not deter anyone from joining...it should be about why you want to join and what you want to do once you have joined...not just another live degree! UGLE needs to take stock of this but it has become such a numbers game with the charity now, I can't see them changing. (by the way, that's me being objective and criticising my own organisation, in case you failed to notice.) I think you are actually a bit of a snob.

6) You did start a Grand Lodge. Why did you not take these revelations that you and your Grand Lodge are privy to, to UGLE and try to not persuade them of their error and let them act upon it!?! You left or was kicked out and are using this as a story to base YOUR Grand Lodge upon! It is completely based on Ego rather than a moral objection!!!

7) I sir, am a Freemason, unlike yourself! You and your Grand Lodge have no right to confer Degrees upon anyone...you are lying to poor unsuspecting people who actually think they are becoming a Freemason. Also this is not my language, I was merely quoting an interesting turn of phrase. If I wish to swear or use irreligious language in conversation, I will. I will not however use this at people.

You sir, I do not think are disgusting, I just object to your actions.

[banoyes]

Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, Martinism, Theosophy, Hermeticism etc etc, they are all part of the Western Mystical Tradition are they not?
Ok
go meet at lodge for some praying
guys mind is locked

[the_duke]

I will not allow unfounded attacks against The Grand Lodge of All England to go undefended, and neither will I allow the UGLE or any of its members pretend to speak for Freemasonry when they, and it, do not.

They have caused the damage, not us.

I do not speak on behalf of anyone but myself...a Freemason.

[unusual_suspect]

Ok
go meet at lodge for some praying
guys mind is locked

But it's true. If you mean Tarot, astrology and alchemy, then you are right, that's part of the Western Mystical Tradition too. There are many paths along the road that ultimately lead to the same place. It is my understanding that many of these beliefs have ancient roots in Tibet and India anyhow.

I'm off now to burn incense and worship triangles.

[grandsecretary]

Well Peter, you certainly pulled me apart with those arguments...I honestly did think you would come back with more!!!

Well you were wrong. I never give in to loud mouthed bullies.

who and what are your sources?

They are all listed on the website, hundreds of them, Masonic and non-Masonic, including the records of the UGLE. Read them and follow them up before you spew your ill-educated propoganda.

rank '...do away with this system then!

Your lot did away with the system of equality when it ditched the Ancient Landmarks.

Unfortunately sir, you are my peer. We are both educated, middle class men with probably very similar lifestyles. You being middle aged, and me not, does not mean we are not peers.

No I am not, and never will be. You assume too much.

You did start a Grand Lodge.

No. Please do not call me a liar again.

"... the first Annual Assembly of the four London Lodges that came together on 24th June 1717 did not constitute in any sense a regulatory body." (SOURCE: Jeremy Pemberton, President of the Board of General Purposes of the United Grand Lodge of England, at the Centenary Conference of the Grand Lodge of Adelaide, June 1984)

"It admits of little doubt, that in its inception the Grand Lodge of England was intended merely as a governing body for the Masons of the Metropolis (London). The minutes of the Grand Lodge sufficiently attest to this ...". (SOURCE: Four Old Lodges by Robert Freke Gould, 1879)

"It is to be regretted that the records of the "Four Old Lodges" do not antedate those of the 'Grand Lodge', they brought into existence, as fortunately happens in the case of the single lodge which blossomed into the 'Grand Lodge of all England, held at York,' " (SOURCE: The History of Freemasonry, Vol. IV by Robert Freke Gould, 1884)

King Athelstan did, your friends didn't.

Just because I have read something, doesn't necessarily dictate that I would have a different attitude, I have read such great works as the Bible, the Qur'an, the Communist Manifesto...etc. and do not think that these have moved me to think differently about how approach things...though their followers would probably insist they would!

A great pity, and says a great deal about you.

You and your Grand Lodge have no right to confer Degrees upon anyone...you are lying to poor unsuspecting people who actually think they are becoming a Freemason.

Well, now we can really put you to the test.

This is a libelous and damaging statement, as you know, alleging fraud against our Grand Lodge, a legal entity.

Obviously I am going to report this to the owners of this Forum for them to take action agaist you, but I am also willing to issue you with a suit in the High Court for criminal libel. Unfortunately, like every loud mouthed dishonest coward, you hide behind a cloak of anonymity. My email address is: grandsecretary@btinternet.com

I will give you a full 24 hours to back up your allegation by providing me with your name and address so that we may:

a) take action against you, as we will, or for you to
b) withdraw your allegation
c) or remain branded here as a lying, unscrupulous, cowardly, criminal.

[banoyes]

Well you were wrong. I never give in to loud mouthed bullies.

You ARE a loud mouth bully
oh wait
you're a maison
that splains it

[the_duke]

This is a libelous and damaging statement, as you know, alleging fraud against our Grand Lodge, a legal entity.

Obviously I am going to report this to the owners of this Forum for them to take action agaist you, but I am also willing to issue you with a suit in the High Court for criminal libel. Unfortunately, like every loud mouthed dishonest coward, you hide behind a cloak of anonymity. My email address is: grandsecretary@btinternet.com

I will give you a full 24 hours to back up your allegation by providing me with your name and address so that we may:

a) take action against you, as we will, or for you to
b) withdraw your allegation
c) or remain branded here as a lying, unscrupulous, cowardly, criminal.

I was, of course, talking from the moral sense. You may well have the legal ability to confer Degrees, but I do not believe you have the moral ability to do so. I indeed withdraw my allegation.

[stewart edwards]

Me on last page- That settles it, enough is enough, I now need Her Majesty the Queen to tell me that I have some Royal blood in me somewhere so that I can ask the Duke of Kent to propose me for his job when he retires.

(wish me luck - Keystone is that beads of sweat I see from your forehead)

Seriously lads, get back to basics, open hearts, put the masonry back into Freemasonry. It really is not that difficult. If a pain in the ass like me can work it out and do it in his own life, you have no excuse not to.
I will not allow unfounded attacks against The Grand Lodge of All England to go undefended, and neither will I allow the UGLE or any of its members pretend to speak for Freemasonry when they, and it, do not.

They have caused the damage, not us.Peter

I was asking to be considered for the job of Grand Master of UGLE so that I could inspire some hearts, open a few more hearts, and through that turn the place around and help it move forwards. Also trying to defuse a situation with a little levity (I mean can you imagine The Queen sitting me down one day and saying "Stewart, you have some Royal blood in you").

[banoyes]

I was, of course, talking from the moral sense. You may well have the legal ability to confer Degrees, but I do not believe you have the moral ability to do so.
LOL
a maison talking about morals is akin to a whore talking about virtue

[grandsecretary]

Removed by me because the libelous allegations have been withdrawn. For general information I have asked the moderators to remove them from this thread.

[the_duke]

May we take it then that you have unreservedly withdrawn your allegation?

We may take it that I unreservedly withdraw the assertion that you don't have the LEGAL right to confer Degrees!

[grandsecretary]

Peter

I was asking to be considered for the job of Grand Master of UGLE so that I could inspire some hearts, open a few more hearts, and through that turn the place around and help it move forwards. Also trying to defuse a situation with a little levity (I mean can you imagine The Queen sitting me down one day and saying "Stewart, you have some Royal blood in you").

I see that Stewart, but I am afraid that IMHO the entire ethos of the UGLE promotes heartlessness. It pains me to say so.

You would do a better job than the present encumbent.

[grandsecretary]

We may take it that I unreservedly withdraw the assertion that you don't have the LEGAL right to confer Degrees!

I heard you. And, just to set the legal record absolutely straight, The Grand Lodge of All England is a legal entity BECAUSE of the authority granted to it by The Charter of York, The Constitutions of Masonrie.

That is the Law, and we will defend it by whatever means that are at our disposal.

[banoyes]

Removed by me because the libelous allegations have been withdrawn. For general information I have asked the moderators to remove them from this thread.
lie

[sean]

Just a note to say that legal threats against members here are not on. If anybody here has a problem with content, use the report post feature.

[grandsecretary]

I never mentioned anything about either swindling or money...I do not know where this has come from!?! I was talking about the moral right to make Masons!

Yes you did. You suggested that we were initiating people into the Craft of Freemasonry under false pretences. That would be fraud because, as you well know, fees and subscriptions are paid.

I have also made it quite clear that under English Law, European Law, Masonic Law practice and tradition we are ENTITLED so to do BECAUSE The Charter of York and the Constitutions of Masonry give us The Masons of England, both the legal and the moral right to Initiate the profane world who are not Masons. The Grand Lodge of All England is legally constituted by those original and extant Constitutions.

You opinions are your opinions, but ONLY your opinions. My statements are made on behalf of The Grand Lodge of All England, a legal entity GOVERNED by The Constitutions of Masonrie, a legal and extant Royal Charter protected by Law and Acts of Parliament.

So be very careful.

[the_duke]

Yes you did. You suggested that we were initiating people into the Craft of Freemasonry under false pretences. That would be fraud because, as you well know, fees and subscriptions are paid.

I have also made it quite clear that under English Law, European Law, Masonic Law practice and tradition we are ENTITLED so to do BECAUSE The Charter of York and the Constitutions of Masonry give us The Masins of England, both the legal and the moral right to Initiate the profane world who are not Masons. The Grand Lodge oif All England is legally constituted by those original and extant Constitutions.

You opinions are your opinions, but ONLY your opinions. My statements are made on behalf of The Grand Lodge of All England, a legal entity GOVERNED by The Constitutions of Masonrie, a legal and extant Royal Charter protected by Law and Acts of Parliament.

So be very careful.

I most certainly have not said that at any time, have actually not thought of the financial implications at any time, and still do not say that. It is only you that has highlighted the financial implications of admitting members into you 'Grand Lodge'. I have repeatedly stated that I disagree with your ability to make Masons on MORAL grounds. Are you going to take me to court for Moral objection...you morally object to the UGLE.

Get over youself, use lucid arguments to convince me and others, not bullying tactics like threats of court action!