Network marketing and freemasons

[lostworld]

I've been working as an administrator for two German networking companies aka multi-level marketing (MLM).
Not as a salesperson though but behind the scenes, at the office.

I'll tell you, many times I felt as If I was working for a cult.
It's all about mammon and the matrix.
The people that are drawn to companies like these are very easy to persuade and manipulate I think. Incl. the subsidiary managers.
They are all very loyal to the business, the products and the company (hello mindcontrol... ;))

The most evil people I've met in my life all work within these companies.
Is that a coincidence? :rolleyes:

The worst of these companies are often accused of pyramid selling.
The "serious" ones always defend their bonus-systems but it's basically really the same thing. A wide base, different levels and an elite at the top.

Also, these companies are international with big meetings and recruting all over the world. Symbolism on company logos and on products also speaks "masonry" to me.

I just get a baaaad feeling about all of this.
An ex-acquaintance of mine said that he had found some interesting stuff about this but I can't find anything about it on the net though.

Does anybody know where to search more about this?
Or has this topic been discussed somewhere here on these threads before?
Thanks :)

[lightindarkness]

And what, exactly, is the proof that there are freemasons involved in this?

MLM scams are just that - scams. Sales people in any businss have to act loyal to the company - their pay is commission, they won't make any money if they go around acting like the company is bad. There is also a religious quality to them because they are essentially scams - products and things that would not sell in the market place without network marketing. So it takes "faith" to "believe" in the product or whatever is being sold.

None of what you described has anything to do with freemasonry, though. You seem to believe masonry is something that it is not. There is no pyramid structure in freemasonry, it is highly decentralized, and there is no recruiting. There is symbolism, but its open, obvious, and explained.

[lostworld]

^
Oh, I've done my research.
So, on the contrary - I think that just as with the world religions, where the mission seems to be to get as much sheeple to stay in the concept as possible - to keep them busy with more "important" things than to LIVE in the real world and be critical to what's going on here, you can really see the same system of blinding effect in the business world.

My point is that there is a meaning behind it, it is in someone's interest to keep people busy with the material and to just focus on that.

Since the top elite of Jehovas Witnesses, other cults and religions AS the elite in many big international companies ALL have some sort of common freemason ground and ultimately are pushing for the NWO agenda - this question is very fair.

Ironically enough, many of the sellers in one of the companies all came from Jehovas Witnesses...
(I've always found it strange how deeply religious people also can seem to be so hungry for money. To me, there is a conflict of interest where the spiritual and the material meet.)

As an insider, I've seen a lot of this business to say it's really shady - even among the so called more serious companies.

Even though the hierarchy system within the networking companies copies the different degrees of masonry that is NOT the point.

You'll have to look at the bigger picture.

[lostworld]

There is no pyramid structure in freemasonry, it is highly decentralized, and there is no recruiting. There is symbolism, but its open, obvious, and explained.

Oh really? :confused:
I don't think many agree with you on this.
If they did, there wouldn't be so many discussions about this and the whole connection freemasonry/illuminati/NWO.
Especially not here on Icke.

There's a structure indeed, a system of different levels, from a wider (more ignorant base) to the elite top.
Most freemasons I'm sure don't even know what they are involved in...

Different levels (different alters) are also a very interest concept within the illuminati mindcontrol-agenda... :rolleyes:

And where do you mean that this symbolism is explained? Within the club?
It's open alright, once you know what to look for cause they seem really amused to throw it in our face, but to most people the symbolism is never recognized for what it is.

And no recruiting? Come on - my ex was recruited by his best friends father already in boarding-school...

[lightindarkness]

Oh, I've done my research.

No offense, but research is not reading conspiracy blogs and watching youtube videos.


So, on the contrary - I think that just as with the world religions, where the mission seems to be to get as much sheeple to stay in the concept as possible - to keep them busy with more "important" things than to LIVE in the real world and be critical to what's going on here, you can really see the same system of blinding effect in the business world.

No..you are seeing the faith that has to be present to sell MLM products.


My point is that there is a meaning behind it, it is in someone's interest to keep people busy with the material and to just focus on that.

There is a meaning behind it - the leaders of the MLM are raking in the cash.


Since the top elite of Jehovas Witnesses, other cults and religions AS the elite in many big international companies ALL have some sort of common freemason ground and ultimately are pushing for the NWO agenda - this question is very fair.

No, you assume all these things are structured like corporations when they are not. Freemasonry is not structured like a corporation - its structured exactly opposite to it. Lodges are decentralized and the side orders and grand lodges have limited and defined territorial authority and cannot "order" anyone to do anything. There is no NWO, but if you must believe in one you can rest assure freemasonry has no NWO agenda to push.


Ironically enough, many of the sellers in one of the companies all came from Jehovas Witnesses...

So? Jehoavah's Witnesses have very tight communities that make them easy victims for MLMs.



As an insider, I've seen a lot of this business to say it's really shady - even among the so called more serious companies.

No argument here. MLM is a scam, because the products would not sell without the MLM structure.


Even though the hierarchy system within the networking companies copies the different degrees of masonry that is NOT the point.

You'll have to look at the bigger picture.

Then what is exactly the point? There is no similarity.

[lightindarkness]

Oh really? :confused:
I don't think many agree with you on this.
If they did, there wouldn't be so many discussions about this and the whole connection freemasonry/illuminati/NWO.
Especially not here on Icke.

Actually a vast, vast majority of people agree with me because they have done the research and know the facts. The Icke forum is not representative of people who do that - some people here do, but they are the minority. There is no freemasonry/illuminati/NWO connection. The NWO is a fictional organization, the Bavarian Illuminati is long dead.


There's a structure indeed, a system of different levels, from a wider (more ignorant base) to the elite top.
Most freemasons I'm sure don't even know what they are involved in...

Completely untrue. You want to believe in some devious structure of elites because life is easier if you simplify the complex events of the world. In the real world, billions of people struggles in pursuit of their own self-interest. But this is complex, hard to understand, it is difficult to divine what happens when so many people are involved. It is much easier to believe in a imaginary hierarchy that you can demonize and make responsible for all the world's evil. It is populist propaganda at its finest. You vs. "The Elites."

Even if you choose to believe in such fantasies, the facts show freemasonry has nothing to do with it. Its a optional organization where no one can order anyone to do anything else, so its quite impossible to be part of some devious scheme.


Different levels (different alters) are also a very interest concept within the illuminati mindcontrol-agenda... :rolleyes:

As the subject of your topic was "networking marketing and freemasons" you should know that the illuminati and freemasonry are two different organizations. Not related. Don't talk to each other. Can't talk to each other in fact, since once again the Bavarian Illuminati died long ago.


And where do you mean that this symbolism is explained? Within the club?
It's open alright, once you know what to look for cause they seem really amused to throw it in our face, but to most people the symbolism is never recognized for what it is.

You again believe freemasonry is something that it is not. Nothing is thrown in your face, you are assigning freemasonry more power than it has ever had. Yes, the symbolism is quite well explained - tomes of books have been written about it. Masons explain it all the time. There is nothing that says I can't explain masonic symbolism, and thousands of authors have written countless of real, research filled books on the topic that are masons..and any member of the public can byu and read those books.


And no recruiting? Come on - my ex was recruited by his best friends father already in boarding-school...

This is a common myth born from the false idea that freemasonry is mystical/special/whatever. No one is invited to freemasonry - it is a critical part of the society - that all come of their own free will and not be solicited. However, people take any mention of visiting the lodge by a mason as a "invitation" when it is no such things. I have "invited" countless people to lodge tours and had no intention of soliciting them for membership - in fact quite a few I would black ball because I knew they would be joining for mercenary motives.

[lostworld]

No offense, but research is not reading conspiracy blogs and watching youtube videos.

Don't patronise me.
Your assumption - unless you have the all seing eye on me of course... :D

But while on the subject, I actually think there is a lot of smart and interesting people who THINK for themselves and QUESTION the world on forums like these and on youtube. Thank God.
Gives you hope for la resistance once the NWO is here and ignorant sheeple like you will be in concentration camps or something else like it - completly :eek: over what the h*** happened.

No, you assume all these things are structured like corporations when they are not. Freemasonry is not structured like a corporation - its structured exactly opposite to it. Lodges are decentralized and the side orders and grand lodges have limited and defined territorial authority and cannot "order" anyone to do anything. There is no NWO, but if you must believe in one you can rest assure freemasonry has no NWO agenda to push.

Since you obviously isn't a Grandmaster in the higher levels then WHAT do you know? Yes you are a mason and proud of it so?
Like I said before - most masons don't even know what they are involved in and you, sadly, seems to be a good example of this.

How ignorant can you be?
Yes, you know what goes on in your lodge, in your little box BUT that says nothing about the bigger picture!
You could at least be humble enough to consider the possibility that things are much bigger and more corrupt than you want to believe. Even if that shatters your little world and what you might have been working for during many years etc.
Where is YOUR proof for being so certain that there is no NWO, no evil elite etc? You just come across as very ignorant and blind.

No, you are nowhere near the power, judging on your posts. And good for you! You can continue your life without questioning anything.
Everything is just as it seems... :rolleyes:

Then what is exactly the point? There is no similarity.
The point is that I believe the LEADERS in these organisations to be freemasons. AND even quite high within the ranking...
AND I believe there is more to it than just to be making money - possibly.

There is no freemasonry/illuminati/NWO connection. The NWO is a fictional organization, the Bavarian Illuminati is long dead. .
You are wrong. At least in my opinion (and many with me).
You can believe what you want and unfortunately I think the day will come during our lifetime when you'll have to wake up.:(

Personally, I grew out of secret clubs and societies when I left childhood unlike you masons. I don't like hierarchy systems of any kind.
I don't understand what kind of kick you get of being a part of this, or if it makes you feel special or what the deal is. :confused:
To me, there is nothing cool about this at all.

BUT as long as it's harmless I don't care. People can do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt others.
And on the lower levels there are many good, innocent people I think who just are clueless. Once again it's the masses, "ordinary peoples" lack of questioning authorities and what is told to us that really frightens me.

If you say that NWO is fictional I really urge you to do some more research!
You may know what goes on in the lower masonry, I say nothing about that BUT please don't think you know everything in the bigger picture just because you have one piece... :mad:


Completely untrue. You want to believe in some devious structure of elites because life is easier if you simplify the complex events of the world..

Believe me, when my research led me to the illuminati and the NWO I was terrified. I had no idea that it could be this bad. And, even if only 1/10 of it all is true it's still more than enough! :eek:
No one would be happier than me if none of this was true.
Yet, there is more than one crack in the Matrix and I'm not the kind that takes the blue pill and goes back to sleep. :p

I wasn't even searching for the truth when starting out - it all started with my interest in archeology.

I don't know how your situation is, but my picture is much bigger than just freemasons. There are many pieces and I don't swallow everything that I come across. But new info and fact that fit together with previous knowledge can't be ignored either. I keep an open mind. I recommend you to do the same. Even if it's brutal and rocks your world.

Even if you choose to believe in such fantasies, the facts show freemasonry has nothing to do with it. Its a optional organization where no one can order anyone to do anything else, so its quite impossible to be part of some devious scheme.

What facts? :confused:

And where are your "facts" that there is no evil elite-freemasonry, illuminati and NWO?


This is a common myth born from the false idea that freemasonry is mystical/special/whatever. No one is invited to freemasonry - it is a critical part of the society - that all come of their own free will and not be solicited. However, people take any mention of visiting the lodge by a mason as a "invitation" when it is no such things. I have "invited" countless people to lodge tours and had no intention of soliciting them for membership - in fact quite a few I would black ball because I knew they would be joining for mercenary motives..

I don't think masonry is special. No offense, but i think it's quite pathetic.
It's you mason-guys who must think you are special etc for being members in your own little club. I mean - what does that prove really? That you are someone? I just don't get it. Please explain why you are so fanatic about this and why this is so important to you, if you want.
You just sound like a religious fanatic, completly shut down and unable to take in anything outside the box! Really sad, actually.

To me - masonry - like other similar things - is just another tool and something to keep your brain occupied for doing more important things in this world. Just another system to keep you non-questioning and in check.

And my life is not a myth. Fact is my ex is a member AND also involved with MLM as a subsidiary manager. He's from a wealthy family and is very intelligent and ambitious so I think they thought he would serve the agenda good and be a great asset. Since he's completly gone to the Matrix I guess they were right. :cool:

[lightindarkness]

Don't patronise me.
Your assumption - unless you have the all seing eye on me of course... :D

Just the facts. You clearly have not done the research.


But while on the subject, I actually think there is a lot of smart and interesting people who THINK for themselves and QUESTION the world on forums like these and on youtube. Thank God.
Gives you hope for la resistance once the NWO is here and ignorant sheeple like you will be in concentration camps or something else like it - completly :eek: over what the h*** happened.

Whatever makes you happy - creating false evil organizations to simplify your worldview is actually rather saddening to me. Delusions are not healthy.


Since you obviously isn't a Grandmaster in the higher levels then WHAT do you know? Yes you are a mason and proud of it so?
Like I said before - most masons don't even know what they are involved in and you, sadly, seems to be a good example of this.

Oh wait, wait, let me guess - only if I admit your mythical, false illusion of freemasonry is real do I get to be considered a "higher level" mason? But as long as I tell the truth and tell you there are no levels, I'm not a high level mason? What a perfectly lovely way for you to block out the truth.

Making up these illusions of a hierarchy of evil masons serving dark masters unknowingly doesn't help you get in touch with reality. Quite to the contrary - even on the most basic level of logic it fails completely. It fails completely on the face of it. Somehow I am a part of a vast scheme and don't know it, but you - not being a mason - somehow KNOW what I don't.



How ignorant can you be?
Yes, you know what goes on in your lodge, in your little box BUT that says nothing about the bigger picture!
You could at least be humble enough to consider the possibility that things are much bigger and more corrupt than you want to believe. Even if that shatters your little world and what you might have been working for during many years etc.
Where is YOUR proof for being so certain that there is no NWO, no evil elite etc? You just come across as very ignorant and blind.

More comedy - I am ignorant because I somehow don't know the vast evil schemes you think are going on BUT YOU KNOW ALL ABOUT THEM. That's what you don't get, my child: freemasonry is decentralized. Each grand lodge operates independently of the other, and each lodge under a grand lodge operates independently - only following some basic rules the Grand Lodge sets down in its constitution. No grand lodge has power over another nor can it order another grand lodge to do anything - how exactly is this going to be used by the fictional organizations you believe exist, like the NWO?

Believing in fake conspiracies is a comfort to you because your mind cannot comprehend the complex way that the world really exists. It is far easier to believe in massive plots against you than it is to understand the very complex system the world actually runs on. I have no problem with you believing in fantasies, but you must understand that when you involve real groups in them you insult people. Making up wild conspiracies about the NWO or Illuminati is fine because they don't exist - doing it about freemasonry is different because there are real members trying to help their communities and be better people. Don't include them in your made up plots.


No, you are nowhere near the power, judging on your posts. And good for you! You can continue your life without questioning anything.
Everything is just as it seems... :rolleyes:

Yet again your amazing ignorance astounds me - you have set up your own little logical fallacy system to shield you from truth. If I tell you the lies you believe are true, I am certainly now "close to power." If I tell you the truth, I am not.

Heres a clue: I am not close to power, because there is no power in freemasonry. Its a secular fraternity devoted to the study of philosophy and community.


The point is that I believe the LEADERS in these organisations to be freemasons. AND even quite high within the ranking...
AND I believe there is more to it than just to be making money - possibly.

I am quite sure you can find a MLM leader who is a mason. There are millions of masons, you will be able to find one in almost any line of work. But, unfortunately for you, you will find no high ranking masons within MLM or anywhere else. They do not exist, its a fictional illusion you want to believe in.


You are wrong. At least in my opinion (and many with me).
You can believe what you want and unfortunately I think the day will come during our lifetime when you'll have to wake up.:(

I am afraid all the facts are against you. I will never believe in mythical conspiracies, so I will never go down the rabbit hole of delusions. The irony of course is that it is you who is asleep and cannot wake up, preferring to dream of evil plots rather than examine the reality before you.


Personally, I grew out of secret clubs and societies when I left childhood unlike you masons. I don't like hierarchy systems of any kind.
I don't understand what kind of kick you get of being a part of this, or if it makes you feel special or what the deal is. :confused:
To me, there is nothing cool about this at all.

Awww, does that make you feel good? Too bad that you are a member of many groups. Put up or shut up - unless you don't go to work (thats a group), have friends (thats a group), or go to school (thats a group), you are a liar. Otherwise, you and I are both members of a group.

Freemasonry is a group, just like any other. It's not cool, and I hope it never is. I joined because I like philosophy and helping out my community. Get over it.


BUT as long as it's harmless I don't care. People can do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt others.
And on the lower levels there are many good, innocent people I think who just are clueless. Once again it's the masses, "ordinary peoples" lack of questioning authorities and what is told to us that really frightens me.

Unfortunately for you there are no lower levels just as there are no higher levels, so no amount of creating imaginary divisions is going to change that. Live up to what you said and stop slandering and insulting members of the fraternity - its not involved in any of the devious schemes you dream up.


If you say that NWO is fictional I really urge you to do some more research!
You may know what goes on in the lower masonry, I say nothing about that BUT please don't think you know everything in the bigger picture just because you have one piece... :mad:

The research is clear: there is no NWO. The phrase "new world order" was a political sound bite that meant " a new way of doing things within the political system" - not an actual organization and not some insidious group plotting against you.

Freemasonry isn't a piece of your puzzle, and neither is lower masonry. Lower masonry doesn't exist. In fact I am according to a vast majority of your fellow clueless conspiracy theorists supposedly in the know because I am a 32nd degree SR mason. Unfortunately for you, the degrees mean nothing in terms of power or rank and I know nothing is going on.


Believe me, when my research led me to the illuminati and the NWO I was terrified. I had no idea that it could be this bad. And, even if only 1/10 of it all is true it's still more than enough! :eek:
No one would be happier than me if none of this was true.
Yet, there is more than one crack in the Matrix and I'm not the kind that takes the blue pill and goes back to sleep. :p

Please do real research - if you are so easily convinced by youtube videos and conspiracy sites perhaps reading a real academic book or peer reviewed article will snap you out of your slumber. Stop dreaming of imaginary conspiracies and wake up to the real world.


I don't know how your situation is, but my picture is much bigger than just freemasons. There are many pieces and I don't swallow everything that I come across. But new info and fact that fit together with previous knowledge can't be ignored either. I keep an open mind. I recommend you to do the same. Even if it's brutal and rocks your world.

I recommend you take your own advise and do some real research. It will tear down these delusions, but its much more healthy.



And where are your "facts" that there is no evil elite-freemasonry, illuminati and NWO?


Conspiracy propaganda attempt #1: attempt to force someone to prove a negative. I will prove the NWO doesn't exist when you prove to me that purple unicorn's don't make up the sky.

Hint: The burden of proof is on you.

Of course, with regards to freemasonry there is no "evil elite-freemasonry" because it couldn't accomplish anything. What are evil elite freemasons going to do, insidiously ride in clown cars? Evilly do community service? The central tenet of the organization is its members meet on the level, there is no room for elites. Anyone holding themselves as elite or trying to tell other people what to do would get no where.


I don't think masonry is special. No offense, but i think it's quite pathetic.
It's you mason-guys who must think you are special etc for being members in your own little club. I mean - what does that prove really? That you are someone? I just don't get it. Please explain why you are so fanatic about this and why this is so important to you, if you want.
You just sound like a religious fanatic, completly shut down and unable to take in anything outside the box! Really sad, actually.

Your own illusions betray you. You are the one who believes there is some secret high level freemasonry no one knows about (except you, of course) that is somehow actively working with the NWO and Illuminati. Quite special if you ask me.

Of course the reality is your right - not special at all. Just a type of fraternity. Believe what you type and you'll be much more on the mark rather than swinging between delusions of conspiracy and facts. People aren't members to "prove" anything - they join because they wanto to and enjoy it.

The divine irony here is that you are the one who sounds like a mindless brain washed parrot, repeating what your conspiracy masters tell you on youtube. It is really sad.


To me - masonry - like other similar things - is just another tool and something to keep your brain occupied for doing more important things in this world. Just another system to keep you non-questioning and in check.

Yes, obviously there is so much more important things to do than trying to make yourself a better person and doing community service. Like watching youtube conspiracy videos.


And my life is not a myth. Fact is my ex is a member AND also involved with MLM as a subsidiary manager. He's from a wealthy family and is very intelligent and ambitious so I think they thought he would serve the agenda good and be a great asset. Since he's completly gone to the Matrix I guess they were right. :cool:

You believe in myths. See how easily you fall for irrational logic - because you know someone who is a mason and a MLM scam member that THIS MUST MEAN all MLMs are run by mason.

Thats called a logical fallacy. Hasty generalization. Its a invalid form of logic. You fail. :rolleyes:

[simplify]

hmmmmm. interesting reading here lightindarkness....I have to wonder why, you are on this forum, since you don't believe in the NWO, or Illuminati. & both of these subjects are discussed vigorously here. Seems like you are quite convinced that neither exists, so why are you wasting your time here.:confused:

[lostworld]

hmmmmm. interesting reading here lightindarkness....I have to wonder why, you are on this forum, since you don't believe in the NWO, or Illuminati. & both of these subjects are discussed vigorously here. Seems like you are quite convinced that neither exists, so why are you wasting your time here.:confused:

Hi Simplify,
finally - one more sane voice in this thread besides me! :)

Usually, people like lightindarkness are disinfo's.
They just repeat themselves over and over, try to patronise and bully you - very childish arguing really.
It's pretty transparent.

[disconnex]

You believe in myths. See how easily you fall for irrational logic - because you know someone who is a mason and a MLM scam member that THIS MUST MEAN all MLMs are run by mason.

Thats called a logical fallacy. Hasty generalization. Its a invalid form of logic. You fail. :rolleyes:

Who's to say what is irrational logic? I understand plausible reasoning:

if a = b and b = c than c must deffinately = a

This is the basis of logic. My question is, where do you get your a and b from. Alot of what is told to you by media and in general public is false. Therfore, if you plug lies into your equation you can get what appears to be a logical answer, but is is a lie. But if you put the opposite into the equation, and that opposite just happens to be the truth, you also get a logical answer, but it's truthful. It's up to you to decide what is truth or not. I'm glad you feel you know the truth but for others, we question what we're told and we like to plug and chug with what we find to be true. Call it inductive reasoning, but do you always get the truth from deductive? With deductive you take what is given to you and you draw a conclusion from that. Again, what if what is given to you is a lie to start with?

[simplify]

Hi Simplify,
finally - one more sane voice in this thread besides me! :)

Usually, people like lightindarkness are disinfo's.
They just repeat themselves over and over, try to patronise and bully you - very childish arguing really.
It's pretty transparent.

+1

[localidiot]

The point is that I believe the LEADERS in these organisations to be freemasons. AND even quite high within the ranking...
AND I believe there is more to it than just to be making money - possibly.




You are wrong. At least in my opinion (and many with me).


I've watched a few COnspiracy videos, seen presentations by conspiracy theoriest, critical thinker, and the a general fair sampling of conspiracy sites.
See these workds a lot, if you know better than a Mason as to the structure of the organization, then break it down.

[lightindarkness]

Hi Simplify,
finally - one more sane voice in this thread besides me! :)

Usually, people like lightindarkness are disinfo's.
They just repeat themselves over and over, try to patronise and bully you - very childish arguing really.
It's pretty transparent.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Right, because only those who agree with your illusions should be allowed to post :)

As you cannot disprove my assertions nor prove your own, it was nice debunking you. A bit to easy though. I recommend researching some real sources to make it harder next time.

[lightindarkness]

Who's to say what is irrational logic? I understand plausible reasoning:

if a = b and b = c than c must deffinately = a

This is the basis of logic. My question is, where do you get your a and b from. Alot of what is told to you by media and in general public is false. Therfore, if you plug lies into your equation you can get what appears to be a logical answer, but is is a lie. But if you put the opposite into the equation, and that opposite just happens to be the truth, you also get a logical answer, but it's truthful. It's up to you to decide what is truth or not. I'm glad you feel you know the truth but for others, we question what we're told and we like to plug and chug with what we find to be true. Call it inductive reasoning, but do you always get the truth from deductive? With deductive you take what is given to you and you draw a conclusion from that. Again, what if what is given to you is a lie to start with?

The science of logic is a few thousand years old - there are common fallacies that are used so often they were proved centuries ago:

Fallacy of hasty generalization (includes formal and informal fallacy - OP committed informal):
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html

You misreprested the OP's statement in order to make it appear as though it were non fallacious.

The OP's logic was:

Person A in profession X is also a member of group Y.
Therefore, all persons in profession X are members of group Y.

More simply:
A, then X and Y.
X, then Y.

It does not follow. Fallacious. Invalid. Try again.

Also, your line thought is running very close to being the relativist fallacy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativist_fallacy

The last part of your statement is the argument ad ignorantium fallacy:
http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/ignorance.html

I don't know about you but I don't get everything from the media. I do my own research and I read books and academic publications.

Now, its been great fun but I'm going on a trip and won't be back for a few weeks. So until then the resident anti-masons and myth believers can rejoice! But I'll be back. Enjoy a refrain from logic and reason while you can :)

[boots]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightindarkness http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=696862#post696862)
. I am a 32nd degree SR mason and there is nothing going on like you believe it is, and the 33rd degree is a honorary degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightindarkness http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=696862#post696862)
Quite right. Neither the 33rd or 99th degree is the highest.

The highest degree is the 3rd degree.



You FAIL AGAIN:rolleyes:

At least this forum well get a break from the hypocrisy:)

.

[pinkfreud]

nice thread lostworld :)

networking, marketing, PR, advertising, branding- all the tools of 'effective communication' have been moulded over several decades by the ptb. everybody knows that.

[pinkfreud]

No offense, but research is not reading conspiracy blogs and watching youtube videos.

i'm asking you, yet again- in that case, why are you here on a so called conspiracy site?

[simplify]

i'm asking you, yet again- in that case, why are you here on a so called conspiracy site?

I posed that question earlier, but he declined to answer.......which speaks volumes imo.

[lightindarkness]

You FAIL AGAIN:rolleyes:

At least this forum well get a break from the hypocrisy:)

.

Lucky for you I checked to see if anyone else had tried to spread my propaganda before turning the computer off!

Nice try to completely take 1 sentance out of context.

You have, as usual, demonstrated you are not only clueless but are deliberately trying to lie by taking quotes out of context, much like you do with Pike quotes:


Freemasonry isn't a piece of your puzzle, and neither is lower masonry. Lower masonry doesn't exist. In fact I am according to a vast majority of your fellow clueless conspiracy theorists supposedly in the know because I am a 32nd degree SR mason. Unfortunately for you, the degrees mean nothing in terms of power or rank and I know nothing is going on.

You have assumed increasing numerical values mean "rank" or "power" or "authority." That is your delusion and myth. They are simply a indicator of how many allegorical Scottish rite stories one has sat through. The end.

Nice try though, disinformation agent.

By the way, I didn't know this forum was only for conspiracy faithful? I am here because I enjoy debunking anti-masons. Don't like it? I don't care. Now, boots, don't spread too much propaganda while I am gone. I will debunk you again when I get back. :)

[pinkfreud]

By the way, I didn't know this forum was only for conspiracy faithful? I am here because I enjoy debunking anti-masons. Don't like it? I don't care.

hmm well it's one thing for you to constantly put down what 'conspiracy' researchers have to say about their findings, and another for you to use the same medium to indulge in nonsensical banter about freemasonry and its origins.

it is obvious that what people here have to say about masonry will fall on deaf ears as far as freemasons are concerned, and counter arguments put forward by masons will only be refuted by the members here as well. it works both ways.

imho i think many are wasting time here debating about freemasonry. we know the truth behind it, and you believe you do as well. it will never go beyond that.

[boots]

Lucky for you I checked to see if anyone else had tried to spread my propaganda before turning the computer off!

Nice Freudian slip there Hahahah.

Nice try to completely take 1 sentance out of context.


You stated it as Fact in both your posts. Your a liar.

You have, as usual, demonstrated you are not only clueless but are deliberately trying to lie by taking quotes out of context, much like you do with Pike quotes:


Hey. Losing your mind? Thats what happens when you lie. Never have I quoted Pike The quote that I have put in the post on Freemasons and eastern star are in context FYI.



You have assumed increasing numerical values mean "rank" or "power" or "authority." That is your delusion and myth. They are simply a indicator of how many allegorical Scottish rite stories one has sat through. The end.

You might like to think it's the end because you have been caught out. Stories Hahahah.

Nice try though, disinformation agent.

I already called you out on the response that you gave. Typical. Can't defend so you attack with childish comments.

By the way, I didn't know this forum was only for conspiracy faithful? I am here because I enjoy debunking anti-masons. Don't like it? I don't care. Now, boots, don't spread too much propaganda while I am gone. I will debunk you again when I get back. :)

Why? Your doing a job of it yourself.:)

Debunk ME what a laugh.

Have a nice holiday, you need it hope the government pays well.:)


.

[localidiot]

Lemme try to explain what LightinDarkness means, there are the three basic degrees in Masonry:
1. Entered Apprentice
2. FellowCraft
3. Master Mason

As far as the Grand Lodge is concerned, Masonry pretty much ends there. As a third level or Master Mason, you are eligible to be an officer in your lodge.

Most side orders of Masonry, like the Scottish Rite, York Rite, or the Shriners, require a applicant to be a Master Mason.

However, none of the order take precedent over any other, and none hold power over the first three degrees.

Each Rite system or other affiliation is generally headed by it's own council, their influence pretty much excluded to their particular affiliation.

So, a 33rd degree has no more sway than a 3rd degree, while it's associate to, it is also separate.

[keystone]

Lemme try to explain what LightinDarkness means, there are the three basic degrees in Masonry:
1. Entered Apprentice
2. FellowCraft
3. Master Mason

As far as the Grand Lodge is concerned, Masonry pretty much ends there. As a third level or Master Mason, you are eligible to be an officer in your lodge.

Most side orders of Masonry, like the Scottish Rite, York Rite, or the Shriners, require a applicant to be a Master Mason.

However, none of the order take precedent over any other, and none hold power over the first three degrees.

Each Rite system or other affiliation is generally headed by it's own council, their influence pretty much excluded to their particular affiliation.

So, a 33rd degree has no more sway than a 3rd degree, while it's associate to, it is also separate.

Yes that's exactly how it is supposed to work and as far as I am concerned does work. To extend the discussion though there are some members posting here, who claim real inside knowledge (and I mean those with real experience not those who just blindly parrot other peoples conspiracy stuff), and who appear to suggest otherwise. Thus far they've been rather obscure and ethereal about it. I'd like to see some evidence. Put up or shut up to put it very crudely.

[pinkfreud]

Yes that's exactly how it is supposed to work and as far as I am concerned does work. To extend the discussion though there are some members posting here, who claim real inside knowledge (and I mean those with real experience not those who just blindly parrot other peoples conspiracy stuff), and who appear to suggest otherwise. Thus far they've been rather obscure and ethereal about it. I'd like to see some evidence. Put up or shut up to put it very crudely.


people go by what they read from other sources because they feel that is more objective than getting information from the very same society they are getting informed about- a society where members are sworn to secrecy.

it's like seeking information on the illuminati from the mainstream media. i'm not saying truth researchers are not biased- i'm just saying they tend to be more believable.

it's also another thing altogether that people such as lightindarkness have consistently rubbished (in a rather condescending manner) member's claims and the material they put forward. the evidence is already there, but many don't agree on it. likewise, is there any evidence to suggest freemasons are not involved in a global conspiracy? no there isn't.

if icke does not convince one enough read svali and robert anton wilson. if that does not convince you still it's fine, because your beliefs are yours alone and no one can force you into it. which is why i also said this freemasonry debate is pointless, it's not going to lead anywhere and i think we should focus all our efforts on positivity and our own personal growth. my question is, if you do not hold a so called higher degree how can you be dead sure that such masons are 'clean'?

[keystone]

people go by what they read from other sources because they feel that is more objective than getting information from the very same society they are getting informed about- a society where members are sworn to secrecy.Yes I see that. However, what if the sources aren't objective in the first instance? This sworn to secrecy bit really amuses me though. The only things that are secret (I'd rather say private) are the tokens of recognition which have been exposed years ago anyway.

it's like seeking information on the illuminati from the mainstream media. i'm not saying truth researchers are not biased- i'm just saying they tend to be more believable.Some of them are so heavily biased that their output is, frankly, unbelievable.

it's also another thing altogether that people such as lightindarkness have consistently rubbished (in a rather condescending manner) member's claims and the material they put forward.Yes I agree it's quite counterproductive from both angles.

the evidence is already there, but many don't agree on it.but quite a bit of the so called "evidence" is clearly tainted. For example cherry picking Pike to suit the researchers agenda.

likewise, is there any evidence to suggest freemasons are not involved in a global conspiracy? no there isn't.No absolutely not. I'd rather it was phrased slightly differently though. There may be people involved in a global conspiracy who are also feemasons but that doesn't mean that freemasonry per se is behind it. See the difference?

if icke does not convince one enough read svali and robert anton wilson. if that does not convince you still it's fine, because your beliefs are yours alone and no one can force you into it.I am dipping into RAWs work off and on at present when I have the time.

...which is why i also said this freemasonry debate is pointless, it's not going to lead anywhere and i think we should focus all our efforts on positivity and our own personal growth.With you all the way there.

my question is, if you do not hold a so called higher degree how can you be dead sure that such masons are 'clean'?I can't but if you reverse the question how can you be dead sure that they are dirty? By simple extension that test applies to everyone on the planet.

[boots]

Yes I see that. However, what if the sources aren't objective in the first instance? This sworn to secrecy bit really amuses me though. The only things that are secret (I'd rather say private) are the tokens of recognition which have been exposed years ago anyway.

Tokens of recognition my arse It's a hierarchy. pure and simple who are you trying to fool.

Some of them are so heavily biased that their output is, frankly, unbelievable.

Yeah truth is stranger than fiction.



but quite a bit of the so called "evidence" is clearly tainted. For example cherry picking Pike to suit the researchers agenda.

There are more people than Pike who have exposed the Freemasons agenda and view's of the world.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/free11.html

For starters.

No absolutely not. I'd rather it was phrased slightly differently though. There may be people involved in a global conspiracy who are also feemasons but that doesn't mean that freemasonry per se is behind it. See the difference?

What difference? these people meet and talk "shop" so it's a nice little club. With the profane on the outer.

I am dipping into RAWs work off and on at present when I have the time.

Thats good take a big dip

With you all the way there.

A good point.

I can't but if you reverse the question how can you be dead sure that they are dirty? By simple extension that test applies to everyone on the planet.

If your on top then you have to be cleaner than clean and it is quite obvious they who pull the strings are not. All these fucking little clubs or think tanks don't give as shit about the ones who they reside over. If the masons are a quintessential group. then they are not acting honourably in there higher positions.

.

[grandsecretary]

Hi Simplify,
finally - one more sane voice in this thread besides me! :)

Usually, people like lightindarkness are disinfo's.
They just repeat themselves over and over, try to patronise and bully you - very childish arguing really.
It's pretty transparent.

"And thus I clothe my naked villany
With odd old ends stol'n out of holy writ,
And seem a saint, when most I play the devil."

[pinkfreud]

Some of them are so heavily biased that their output is, frankly, unbelievable.

that is where RAW would come in. i'm sure you'd take to his work because he's objective, and yeah he's got a sense of humour too.

i hadn't known about RAW myself till i checked out tw's thread on him.


but quite a bit of the so called "evidence" is clearly tainted. For example cherry picking Pike to suit the researchers agenda.

pike is regularly quoted, because he has gone on record to speak about masonry, and whether or not he was a freemason himself- what you can be sure about is that he had very strong links with the illuminati. you can hence see where he's coming from; he was no fool, and it would be stupid to assume pike knew nothing about masonry. yes, maybe he was no authority on freemasonry and masonic beliefs but he was highly intelligent and knowledgable as far as ancient esoteric wisdom is concerned. and for that matter, you could well argue that pike was not even the founder-mentor of the kkk.

There may be people involved in a global conspiracy who are also feemasons but that doesn't mean that freemasonry per se is behind it. See the difference?

i do, and i also know that all freemasons are not 'evil', lol. i don't hold all responsible, i never have- i'm just saying that there is evidence that some people in positions of power, with links to freemasonry, have gotten their hands dirty in the global conspiracy. but that's not to say other secret societies aren't involved- look at china; their secret societies and the underworld have been one of the most notorious influences in the ptb agenda. and not many people know about it.


I can't but if you reverse the question how can you be dead sure that they are dirty? By simple extension that test applies to everyone on the planet.

exactly, but there is more material/evidence (whatever you wish to call it) that does point to these individuals being involved in some sort of propaganda.

[lostworld]

nice thread lostworld :)

networking, marketing, PR, advertising, branding- all the tools of 'effective communication' have been moulded over several decades by the ptb. everybody knows that.

Thanks Pinkfreud! :)
After all, this is why I started the thread in the first place. With a genuine question about freemasons involvement in the networking business.

Little did I know that this question was so sensitive that I had to be attacked right away by people like lightindarkness. :rolleyes:

I didn't start out this thread to bash freemasons - however, since the masons here seem very eager to pick a fight with you, then hey - I'm the first one to defend myself.

Thanks my fellow black sheep who THINK, LIVE and QUESTION things in this world! Without people like us there would still be plantage slaves, women would have no voting rights and the last white whale would have been shot a long time ago. :)

I'm a free soul. I don't need a "master" to obey and worship, unlike the masons here. An open mind will find the truth, a closed and controlled one will never.
I will never be a servant to evil.

The masons always talk about how equality and liberty is the essential for them. Oh, the irony... :p
WHERE is the equality in a hierarchy system with masters telling you what to do and who are "above" you in ranking? And to me liberty is NOT to have a closed mind, spending my life in a little box and be too afraid/to ignorant to at least admit the possibility that maybe I am working for the wrong side, for an evil elite who cares nothing for me or for my "charity work".

Masons like lightindarkness are hardly any posterchild for freemasonry.
You just get turned off by the whole thing even more!
If this is the kind of persons you'll find in the lower scales, then just imagine what they're made of in the higher rankings :eek:

Masons say it's all so innocent. They just contribute to society and do honest charity work etc. Fair enough. Let them believe that if they want.
What I can't understand is why this work has to be done within the name of "freemasonry" - why can't you do this noble work as a free person, without any "masters", membership and all that nonsense?

This kind of arguing reminds me a bit of hunters who defend their kiling of animals with the fact that they "love to be out in nature". Well, grab a basket and pick some berries then!
Otherwise, don't lie - admit that you're there cause you get a kick out of killing.

Now this is a METAPHOR, of course I'm not saying that masons like to kill.
(You'll have to be overexplicit here, otherwise you'll get attacked instantly.
I probably will be anyway, lol).

So, like the "naturefriendly" hunters - just admit what the deal really is.
Obviously it must be some kind of dominance-fetish. You must like to play master and servant somehow? WHY not do charity work outside this fantasy-world otherwise? :confused:

Like I said to lightindarkness: I left secret clubs and societies when I left childhood. If you need this kind of acknowledgement I feel sorry for you cause to me that is a sign of a very weak person.
You think you are "someone" if you are a member of hierarchy crap like this...
If you masons wanna label yourself go ahead.
Just don't expect us who don't sleep to go along with the farce though.

[disconnex]

The last part of your statement is the argument ad ignorantium fallacy:


Hrrmm. No. My point is, You take what is known and deduct from that. What if what you know is a lie? Then all of your answers are untrue. In all of your post you defend the surface truth. You negate anyone who questions what is in front of them by calling them crazy and fascist. I don't believe all the conspiracy theories myself, but I question the credibility of the main stream info. If we live in a world of lies than logic as we know it is actually illogical, and the illogical becomes logic.

[keystone]

Thanks Pinkfreud! :)
After all, this is why I started the thread in the first place. With a genuine question about freemasons involvement in the networking business.Actually that wasn't entirely clear from your lead post butI have to agree that the second post in the thread rather overreacted,

Little did I know that this question was so sensitive that I had to be attacked right away by people like lightindarkness. :rolleyes:No its not that sensitive. Just some people are.

I didn't start out this thread to bash freemasons - however, since the masons here seem very eager to pick a fight with you, then hey - I'm the first one to defend myself.Don't tar everyone with the same brush. I have a certain sympathy with LiD because most of the threads in this section tend to set out to pick fights with masons in the first place. Perhaps he misunderstood. I think he did.

I'm a free soul. I don't need a "master" to obey and worship, unlike the masons here. An open mind will find the truth, a closed and controlled one will never.then you misunderstand the masonic term Worshipful Master. It has nothing to do with worship in a religious sense and it has nothing to do with being a mastyer in a master / slave sense.

I will never be a servant to evil.Neither will I.

WHERE is the equality in a hierarchy system with masters telling you what to do and who are "above" you in ranking? And to me liberty is NOT to have a closed mind, spending my life in a little box and be too afraid/to ignorant to at least admit the possibility that maybe I am working for the wrong side, for an evil elite who cares nothing for me or for my "charity work".Well there is no real hierarchy as in passing down instructions through the chain of command to the serfs below to unstintingly obey. The badge (apron) of the GM is exactly the same as the newest EA. He's just got a little bit more adornment on it. Now when anyone actually proves to me and I mean proves to me that there is an evil elite at the top of freemasonry then I'm out of it.

Masons like lightindarkness are hardly any posterchild for freemasonry. You just get turned off by the whole thing even more!
If this is the kind of persons you'll find in the lower scales, then just imagine what they're made of in the higher rankings :eek:Well his style is a tad abrasive. Thats the trouble with freemasonry. There are people in it!

Masons say it's all so innocent. They just contribute to society and do honest charity work etc. Fair enough. Let them believe that if they want.
What I can't understand is why this work has to be done within the name of "freemasonry" - why can't you do this noble work as a free person, without any "masters", membership and all that nonsense?Yes you can but this is were Stewert has been a little vocal about the institution. Freemasonry is actually about the mason as an individual (not as part of a herd) finding out about himself as an individual and his journey through life. The social club aspects and the chrity work are an adjunct. Some members are happy with just being in a social club. Others are happy concentrating on the charity work and never too deeply look into the "knowledge of yourself" which is really what freemasonry is about if you chose to make it so.

............... - just admit what the deal really is.
Obviously it must be some kind of dominance-fetish. You must like to play master and servant somehow? WHY not do charity work outside this fantasy-world otherwise? :confused:See above.

Like I said to lightindarkness: I left secret clubs and societies when I left childhood. If you need this kind of acknowledgement I feel sorry for you cause to me that is a sign of a very weak person.and membership of the DavidIcke forum or the "truth movement" isn't a similar club? Looking at it unemotionally and objectively I mean.

You think you are "someone" if you are a member of hierarchy crap like this...
If you masons wanna label yourself go ahead.
Just don't expect us who don't sleep to go along with the farce though.No there is no hierarchy. I can tell the GM to go play with himself and there is little he can practically do to me that would make any difference to my life. There is no control. I can leave this evening if I want to. If it was a farce I would not be a member.

Hope that's honest enough for you.

Edit:

Just to add on the network marketing side I once got persuaded to take a look at Amway here in the UK. I thought this looks good and joined. It took me about 6 weeks to realise what it was and that I would never be earning the big bucks they promised because the guys on top get the lions share whilst people like me did all the work for peanuts. I bailed and never went back. FM isn't like that at all.

[keystone]

Hrrmm. No. My point is, You take what is known and deduct from that. What if what you know is a lie? Then all of your answers are untrue. In all of your post you defend the surface truth. You negate anyone who questions what is in front of them by calling them crazy and fascist. I don't believe all the conspiracy theories myself, but I question the credibility of the main stream info. If we live in a world of lies than logic as we know it is actually illogical, and the illogical becomes logic.Hmmm that is indeed so and it works both ways.

[disconnex]

Hmmm that is indeed so and it works both ways.

With much respect, I agree. Now if all of us with different opinions can discuss without calling names and assuming the other is wrong, we may hit on something one day....

[lostworld]

Hi Keystone,
and thanks for your great answer. Respect. :)
I will soon post you some comments back.

See how much better it is if we all can keep the discussion on this level.
I agree with Disconnex that that is SO much better. :)

[space lizard]

Just yesterday I was invited for coffee with one of these 'mentors' by a friends of mine. On the way there my young and impressionable friend kept on reinforcing upon me just how rich and successful he mentor is. We met and the guy seemed like the greatest guy in the world, filling me with stories about how I could make it and earn 300,000 per year within 10 years etc. The whole time being very evasive as to why they were so interested in me.

At one point he asked me if I believe in God. (Probing to see if I'm a pliable sheep). No matter what I said the mentor had the right answer. My suspicion was raised when I paid for our coffee and tipped the waitress. She glanced at me and handed me the mentors half filled out free cup of coffee card. At the time I thought, "why would a 100 times over millionaire give a shit about a free cup of coffee".

The MLM company is called "Network Twentyone" - I did see christianity symbolism in their logo, (alarm bells triggered by the God question). I have since researched it and put simply. Not Interested.

[edit]

No there is no hierarchy. I can tell the GM to go play with himself and there is little he can practically do to me that would make any difference to my life. There is no control. I can leave this evening if I want to. If it was a farce I would not be a member.

Hope that's honest enough for you.

Edit:

Just to add on the network marketing side I once got persuaded to take a look at Amway here in the UK. I thought this looks good and joined. It took me about 6 weeks to realise what it was and that I would never be earning the big bucks they promised because the guys on top get the lions share whilst people like me did all the work for peanuts. I bailed and never went back. FM isn't like that at all.
__________________
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[edit]

14-01-2011

[luciferhorus]

I've been working as an administrator for two German networking companies aka multi-level marketing (MLM).
Not as a salesperson though but behind the scenes, at the office.

I'll tell you, many times I felt as If I was working for a cult.
It's all about mammon and the matrix.
The people that are drawn to companies like these are very easy to persuade and manipulate I think. Incl. the subsidiary managers.
They are all very loyal to the business, the products and the company (hello mindcontrol... ;))

The most evil people I've met in my life all work within these companies.
Is that a coincidence? :rolleyes:

The worst of these companies are often accused of pyramid selling.
The "serious" ones always defend their bonus-systems but it's basically really the same thing. A wide base, different levels and an elite at the top.

Also, these companies are international with big meetings and recruting all over the world. Symbolism on company logos and on products also speaks "masonry" to me.

I just get a baaaad feeling about all of this.
An ex-acquaintance of mine said that he had found some interesting stuff about this but I can't find anything about it on the net though.

Does anybody know where to search more about this?
Or has this topic been discussed somewhere here on these threads before?
Thanks :)

It is my experience that Masons tend to be part of the traditional Capitalist establishment and that MLM companies tend to be really a relatively recent phenomenon of Capitalism.

If you have been in an MLM company for a while, you will no doubt have realised that the top earners in MLM companies are generally not persons who make a lot of sales; on the contrary they are persons who recruit a lot of sales people and they earn a commission from several generations of sales persons below them.

If you recruit person A who recruits person B who recruits person C who recruits person D, you will generall get a commission on "all" the sales in your "downline." This only seems to work with products which have an extremely high profit margin which can be divided up over many generations of sales recruiters. An example is Amway which sells washing up liquid for about $7 a bottle and whose product cost is estimated to be a few cents.

Essentially the more successful MLM companies often do have a few very high earners at the top of the pyramid, and they generally promote the success of these persons in their propaganada; thus many people join the company and pay their $7 for a bottle of washing up liquid in the hope that they too can recruit many others to the company and rise to the top of the pyramid, but is seems to me that the vast majority of persons in these MLM companies are just paying for over priced products.

I do have a sister of a friend who has been working for an Aloe Vera MLM company and she is quite successful, but she seems to be the exception to the rule. Aloe Vera is anyway a very common product and I cannot imagine why anyone would buy their extortionately priced products (which can be bought cheaply from competitors in supermarkets and health food stores) other than in the hope of remaining in the chain and earning commissions from those they recruit.

It also seems that these MLM companies do have many cult like features, and it seems to entirely take over the lives of the people involved, even their social lives; much as it is with religion, joining and MLM cult gives the cultist a whole new social life which revolves around their product.

With the decline of manufacturing in the West and rising unemployment, I expect there to be a mass influx into such Capitalist cults. One finds numerous adverts in the Capitalist press stating "Do you want to earn $20,000 a month working from home? Let me show you how." Of course, with the world's largest MLM company turning over almost $9 billion, it is probably the case that a small proportion of persons do actually make such a sum, but it has been shown that the vast majority of it's recruits actually make a loss.

I did have two friends some years ago who were Amway fanatics, but they just ended up buying a lot of expensive soap powder and washing up liquid which they really could not afford, to keep themselves in the system.

MLM seems to be just another Capitalist scam to sell over priced goods and which appeals to those who are financially desparate.

http://blog.lib.umn.edu/schne644/architecture/htdocs/blog/schne644/architecture/Poverty.jpg

Unfortunately MLM companies are just very much a reflection of the Capitalist system. In our world of almost 7 billion people, there are a small minority of persons who prosper from Capitalism while the vast majority are simply victims and economic slaves working to barely survive. Capitalism certainly works for the successful Capitalists in the same way that slavery works for a successful slavemaster.

MLM is not socialism; it is a system where a small proportion of the distributers prosper at the expense of the vast majority, just like the Capitalist system in general.

Lux


_____________

The Times
November 27, 2007

Marketing group merely ‘selling a dream’

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/media/article2951266.ece

David Brown The British subsidiary of one of the world’s biggest marketing groups was accused yesterday of breaking company law by “selling a dream” of unachievable wealth.

Amway, which had 39,000 selling agents in Britain during 2005-06, is “inherently objectionable”, operates as a lottery and is trading unlawfully, the Companies Court was told.

Mark Cunningham, QC, on behalf of John Hutton, the Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform, told the court that the Government was seeking to wind up Amway in the public interest following an investigation into its business practices.

The allegations are seriously damaging to the international group, which claims to have a worldwide salesforce of more than three million people and a turnover of $6.4 billion (£3.2 billion).

The Government investigation claims to have revealed that just 10 per cent of Amway’s agents in Britain make any profit, with less than one in ten selling a single item of the group’s products. It claims that Amway’s main activity is encouraging other people to join its salesforce so that they pay the registration fee and buy marketing materials.

Mr Cunningham said that Amway attracted new agents, known as Independent Business Owners (IBOs), by offering “substantial financial rewards or easy money”. He said that promise of wealth was “illusionary” and amounted to “dream selling”.

The group, which has been operating in Britain since 1973, claims that agents can earn a substantial income from selling its range of dietary supplements, cosmetics, jewellery and water purifiers. They are also offered bonuses for recruiting other agents. However, an investigation by the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform showed that only 6 per cent of agents bought Amway products to sell on, the court was told.

Mr Cunningham said that the vast majority of products offered by Amway to its agents were overpriced even before they were expected to add a further 20 to 25 per cent for retail. “The unattractive pricing explains some the graver vices that are at the centre of the winding-up application,” Mr Cunningham said.

Agents were encouraged to buy instructions on how to grow their businesses by attracting new agents. The material contained images of success such as luxury cars, boats and foreign holidays.

Mr Cunningham told the court: “The prospect of substantial rewards and easy money has been at all times, and remains, illusionary.”

The investigation discovered that 71 per cent of agents made no income from Amway in the year 2005-06 and that 90 per cent had made a loss after paying the £18 fee to renew their registration. In fact, just 101 of the agents shared 75 per cent of the bonuses.

“The reality of being an IBO is that a substantial majority make minimal financial returns,” Mr Cunningham said. “Our case is founded on the selling of the dream on one hand and the loss or minimal financial return on the other.”

Mr Cunningham told the court that Amway operates a “pernicious” scheme, which encourages agents to recruit family, friends and colleagues to the group so that they themselves could move up to “that very narrow group that makes any money”.

He said that the Amway scheme involved targeting the “gullible”, “deluded” and “vulnerable” to join the scheme and accused the group of “dream selling.”

“Amway presents itself to be life changing and life enhancing – if you choose to participate,” Mr Cunningham told the court. “The millions of aspirational achievers, the idea that this is a success in global terms – we will show otherwise.”

One marketing presentation authorised by Amway offered the opportunity for a “small secondary income or an income which would rank in the top 2 per cent of money earners.” It added that such money “is being achieved in the same time it takes to study for a degree”.

However, Amway’s own records showed that only Trevor and Jackie Lowe, and Jerry and Mandy Scriven among its agents earned more than the £78,000 required to place them in the top 2 per cent of earners, the court was told. The records showed that it takes at least 14 years to make it into the top 20 The top 12 new joiners since 2001 earned an average of just £164 a week, said Mr Cunningham. The “snapshot” of Amway’s records showed that of the 25,000 agents operating at that time, just 37 made more than £25,000 a year.

Amway has claimed that it has substantially changed it business model since the department lodged its petition to wind up the company in April. Richard De Vos, who founded the group in the United States in 1959, has an estimated personal fortune of $3.6billion.

Countdown

39,000
agents working for Amway

27,000
(71%) had no income

11,410
(30%) earned something

7,492
(of the 11,410) received average of £13.53 per year

101
agents received 75 per cent of bonuses

£116K
paid to top earner Trevor Lowe

26
number of years Mr Lowe was an agent

Source: Evidence at companies court hearing