famous freemasons and eastern star exposed

[humito]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3289775/Famous-Freemasons-Exposed

Although some of the photos in this link perhaps show how photographs of the famous can be taken out of context as in celebs giving hand signals when pissed and when raising their arms ( i.e hands being captured during movement and appearing to show a sign.......brittney here looking dazed is a good example)........The compiler does a good job and most of the 'posed' shots reveal a great deal...........

[lightindarkness]

The problem is that all the masonic signs are known because the ritual has been exposed, and no mason or OES member goes around in public flashing random signs. None of the people in there are masons or OES members - both institutions widely publicize any members they have which have any level of fame.

The guy who made this is makes the rounds on conspiracy forums so I've seen it before and looked through it. There is not one actual masonic sign in there and none of the people in it are masons. When public figures are photographed thousands of times A DAY, you easily get pictures of them making all sorts of contortions. Its not that they are really making signs of anything, they just are photographed between movements. The magazine shots are also common, since as everyone knows when people pose for magazine shots they have to flail around for hours until the photographer gets a shot he likes, and the shots are not meant to be natural looking.

[humito]

yes i appeciate what you are saying,i mention it in my post................however there is definatley a pattern with a lot of the posed shots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!........I didnt label them masonic or eastern star signals.........thats just the title the compiler gave it.............I posted the link as i do think its revealing and pertinant about secret societies in general......... there are many cults/ occult societies that use signals not just masons.........also I would add that the true agenda of freemasonry is not revealed to anyone below the 33rd degree............so if you are comming from a masonic perspective how do you know that the occult orders that a lot of celebrities/politicians etc are involved with are not controlled by the higher initiates of masonry and have their own signals etc............

[lightindarkness]

yes i appeciate what you are saying,i mention it in my post................however there is definatley a pattern with a lot of the posed shots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!........I didnt label them masonic or eastern star signals.........thats just the title the compiler gave it.............I posted the link as i do think its revealing and pertinant about secret societies in general......... there are many cults/ occult societies that use signals not just masons.........also I would add that the true agenda of freemasonry is not revealed to anyone below the 33rd degree............so if you are comming from a masonic perspective how do you know that the occult orders that a lot of celebrities/politicians etc are involved with are not controlled by the higher initiates of masonry and have their own signals etc............

Yes, take thousands of photographs of yourself walking around and you will find the exact same poses. Are you a secret member of the Illuminati out throwing signs everywhere? No.

Yet again, how can you not even being a mason know when the "true agenda" is revealed in freemasonry? Especially since you hold the wrong and false view that there is these mythical 33 levels, when in reality the 33rd degree is from a SIDE ORDER.

I know that no one is being controlled by higher initiates because there are no higher initiates and freemasonry controls no one. Additionally, every single famous member who is a mason is widely publicized - they are very public about it.

[localidiot]

Especially since you hold the wrong and false view that there is these mythical 33 levels, when in reality the 33rd degree is from a SIDE ORDER.

Never really got why folks focus on the Scottish Rite so much, the York Rite is pretty much ignored.
If it came down to numbers the Memphis Rite would be brought up more.

[mike martin]

I have very little to say abou this load of old codswallop as if you search the forum you'll find we did it all months ago.

However just two points:

First there is no Masonic hand signal that looks like an M. That's because M is not a Masonic symbol.

Second: The OES is not Freemasonry and it only started in in 1850!

I'm sure as a serious researcher you will be able to use these clues to fill in the rest.

Mike

[lightindarkness]

Never really got why folks focus on the Scottish Rite so much, the York Rite is pretty much ignored.
If it came down to numbers the Memphis Rite would be brought up more.

I think it does come down to the numbers and the assumption that higher numbers must equal power. The Memphis rite is ignored because it is irregular and no longer practiced by any large amount of people. You still see it pop up occasionally with the people who claim there are 360 degrees of freemasonry or some other made up number that sounds sexy. They use the existence of the hilariously large number of degrees inthe Memphis rite as "evidence" for this claim.

As the Scottish Rite is the side order that is regular with the highest numbers, they project their fantasies onto it. If the York Rite had higher numbers, the attention would be concentrated to it.

[stewart edwards]

You still see it pop up occasionally with the people who claim there are 360 degrees of freemasonry or some other made up number that sounds sexy. A Freemason once told me this, though I am sure that it was a wind up. I know he is a Freemason for his lodge confirmed it to me during my interview. Perhaps you members shouldn't joke to friends about it.

[lightindarkness]

A Freemason once told me this, though I am sure that it was a wind up. I know he is a Freemason for his lodge confirmed it to me during my interview. Perhaps you members shouldn't joke to friends about it.

As with many things with you, I'd have to know the exact comment, surrounding conversation, and who said it. An interview for what by whom? You really seem to take things out of fantastical context most of the time. I honestly believe you would take something like "Well there are only 3 degrees but conspiracy theorists go crazy with claiming 360..." and you remember something different.

Of course, masons often joke about riding goats as well. Do you know why? Because the absurd claim was made by anti-masons first and masons found it hilarious (and still do) because it was so outrageous. It would be the exact same thing as any mason who is told there are 360 degrees of freemasonry. The absurdity of it makes it humorous.

[stewart edwards]

As with many things with you, I'd have to know the exact comment, surrounding conversation, and who said it. An interview for what by whom? You really seem to take things out of fantastical context most of the time. I honestly believe you would take something like "Well there are only 3 degrees but conspiracy theorists go crazy with claiming 360..." and you remember something different.Oh dear LID.


No my friend, stress friend, was very clear about it, though as I say I am sure it was a wind up. Whether you believe my experiences in life is up to you. the interview was a lodge interview for joinging a lodge, a lodge that ultimately some weeks/a couple of months later rejected me.

I admit that I sometimes struggle with banter, which is why I said I am sure it was a joke. The interview was very real I can show you the rejection letter.

[mike martin]

The problem with the 360 degree thing is that it is descibing a circle so it fits with Freemasonry so it is almost believable. Having said that there are hundreds of degrees, the problem is that they are not in some kind of order or even connected and more importantly the majority of the haven't been worked since the 19th Century.

Mike

[abrilliantone]

http://www.srmason-sj.org/images/hd_aboutsr.gif (http://www.scottishrite.org/)

http://www.srmason-sj.org/images/eagle33.jpg

About the Scottish Rite

The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry is commonly known as the Scottish Rite. It is one of several appendant groups of the worldwide fraternity known as Freemasonry. Each Valley has up to four Scottish Rite bodies, and each body confers a set of degrees. In the Southern Jurisdiction these are the Lodge of Perfection (4°–14°), Chapter of Rose Croix (15°–18°), Council of Kadosh (19°–30°), and the Consistory (31°–32°). The Supreme Council confers the 33rd Degree of Sovereign Grand Inspector General.

The Scottish Rite is one of the two branches of Freemasonry in which a Master Mason may proceed after he has completed the three degrees of Symbolic or Blue Lodge Masonry. The other branch is known as the York Rite, consisting of Royal Arch Masons, Royal and Select Masters and the Knights Templar.

For additional information, please download the brochure (http://www.srmason-sj.org/pdfs/beyond3.pdf), "Masonry Beyond the Third Degree." (PDF reader required)

Degrees

Lodge of Perfection

4° - Secret Master

Duty, reflection and study are the gateway to opportunity, as such one honors those relationships to God, family, country and Masonry. The apron of the 4th degree is white and black, with a letter "Z" and all-seeing eye. The jewel of this degree is an ivory key with the letter "Z" on the wards. The teachings: secrecy, obedience and fidelity.

5° - Perfect Master

The degree teaches Masonic honor; that honesty and trustworthiness is the cornerstone of the foundation of such. This virtue should be in all of our undertakings with mankind. The apron of the 5th degree is white and green, with a cubic stone and a Hebrew YOD. The jewel is represented by a compass open on a segment of a circle, to an angle of sixty degrees. The teachings: honesty, sincerity, and good faith.

6° - Intimate Secretary

In this degree one should expand their knowledge of duty, charity and toleration. We are instructed to reshape ourselves and our thinking into charity, self-control, and success i.e. to be a peacemaker. The apron of the 6th degree is white and red, with Hebrew letters YOD HEH in the center and a small triangle containing the Hebrew letters (clockwise from top) BETH, NUN, and SHIN. The gold triangle with the same three letters inscribed is the jewel that represents this degree.

7° - Provost & Judge

We learn that impartial justice protects person, property, happiness and reputation. We are instructed to judge with patience and impartially. The apron of the 7th degree is white, edged with red, with a key and five rosettes. The jewel is a golden key.

8° - Intendant of the Building

We should strive for perfection by using the great principles of "God's inherent love, charity, morality and kindness". The apron of the 8th degree is white, with red and green, with a balance, a nine-pointed star, and a triangle with the Hebrew letters BETH (for Ben-Khurim), YOU (for Jakinah), and ALEPH (for Achar). The jewel of this Degree is a gold triangle with the same three letters.

9° - Elu of the Nine (Elected Knight of the Nine)

Truth, candor and generosity; the foundation of Scottish Rite Masonry is most reflected in this degree. We should use these truths to shape our lives and conduct. The apron of the 9th degree is white, lined with black, and sprinkled with blood, with an arm holding a dagger and a severed head held by the hair. The jewel of this degree is a dagger, hilt of gold and blade of silver.

10° - Elu of the Fifteen (Illustrious Elect of the Fifteen)

This degree teaches us to be tolerant and respect the opinions of others. Freedoms of political and spiritual ideologies should be shared by all. The apron of the 10th degree is white, with a black flap, and with three arch-shaped gates - over each a head on a spike. The jewel of this degree is a dagger as in the 9th degree.

11° - Elu of the Twelve (Sublime Knight Elect of the Twelve)

This degree teaches sympathy. We should be compassionate to our brother Masons and to all mankind as well. The apron of the 11th degree is white, lined with black, with a flaming heart in the center. The jewel being a dagger suspended from a black cordon inscribed with the words "Vincere aut Mori" the pledge "that you will rather die than betray the cause of the people, or be overcome through your own fear or fault."

12° - Master Architect

This degree teaches faith in morality and virtue and in God. "Life is what each man makes of it; the optimist turns a trial into a blessing. The apron of the 12th degree consists of a white outer shell, lined with blue and gold (symbolizing the Craft degrees), with a protractor, plain scale, sector, and compasses. The jewel is a heptagonal medal of gold.

13° - Royal Arch of Solomon (Knight of the Ninth Arch)

Liberty; in our mind and our hearts, motivated by duty and honor are the lessons of this degree. The apron worn is purple, bordered with white, and with the "Enochian delta" (hexagram with inscribed Tetragrammation) in the center. The jewel comprises a circular medal of gold.

14° - Perfect Elu (Grand Elect, Perfect and Sublime Mason)

This degree teaches us to reflect and scrutinize oneself. We should strive to be true to ourselves and our God. The apron being of white silk, bordered in gold, with the Ineffable Delta in the Center is truly emblematical of the degree. The jewel of the 14th Degree is split; one being a quadrant (compass open to ninety degrees) topped by a crown and with a nine-pointed star on the obverse, the other being a five-pointed blazing star (with the Tetragrammaton) on the reverse. The compass is opened on a segment of a circle, inscribed with the numbers 3, 5, 7, 9.

Chapter of Rose Croix

The Chapter of Rose Croix attempts to provide the candidate with a deeper understanding of religion, philosophy, ethics and history though a variety of complex "historical degrees". The intellectual challenges presented in these degrees are numerous, and at times overwhelming and can take years to master.

15° - Knight of the East, of the Sword or of the Eagle

Fidelity to obligations and perseverance of purpose under difficulties and discouragement are the lessons of this degree. The striking crimson velvet apron of this degree is edged with green, having a bleeding head above two crossed swords, and a triangle (top point to the left) with three interlaced triangles inside it. The jewel is three golden concentric triangles encompassing two crossed swords.

16° - Prince of Jerusalem

We learn "heroism of patience, the nobility of self-sacrifice" and compassionate judgment, along with charity, fidelity and brotherhood. This crimson apron is edged in gold and aurora-color, and with a square, shield, Delta (with three YODs), balance and a hand of justice. The jewel worn is a mother-of-pearl lozenge with a hand holding a balance in equipoise; under it a sword with five stars surrounding the point. On the left is a Hebrew D, on the right is a Hebrew Z.

17° - Knight of the East & West

The wisdom of this degree is that loyalty to God is man's primary allegiance and the temporal governments not founded upon God and His righteousness will inevitably fall. The apron worn is of yellow satin, with crimson and gold, and with a sword and Tetractys (of the Tetragrammaton) on it. The jewel is a heptagon of half silver and half gold, with crossed swords on a balance on the obverse and a lamb on the Book of Seven Seals on the reverse. The jewel is hung from a double order - one black (left-to-right) and one white (right-to-left), representing good versus evil. A gold coronet is also presented.

18° - Knight Rose Croix

This degree emphasizes that life and its strength come from God. The rose signifies the dawn and the cross is a sacred symbol of antiquity in many cultures. One is also taught to be tolerant of others errors and their faults. The apron worn is of white leather or satin, bordered in red, with a skull and cross-bones, a red passion cross, and three red rosettes. The grand jewel is a gold compass open a quarter circle. A rose-cross is between the legs of the compass and under it is a pelican, tearing its breast to feed its seven young on the obverse and an eagle with wings extended on the reverse. On the circle are the letters I.N.R.I.

Council of Kadosh

The word "Kadosh" is a Hebrew word meaning Holy. Although Pike identifies the degrees of the Council of Kadosh as chivalric and philosophical, they are all intensely mystical with respect to the lessons conveyed and symbols employed.

19° - Grand Pontiff

We learn from the past and how it affects the present and the influence we live in the future in this degree. We as mortals strive to endure, produce and improve the world as it surrounds us. There is no apron, but the jewel is a gold "parallelogram" (rectangle) with a Greek Alpha on one side and an Omega on the other.

20° - Master of the Symbolic Lodge

This demonstrates liberty, fraternity and equality. These truths teach morals, religious and philosophical understandings. This degree helps one to comprehend Deity, forces of nature, good and evil. The apron worn is yellow, bordered in blue, with three concentric point-down triangles, with the Tetragrammaton (horizontal) and "Fiat Lux" (vertical) at the center, forming a cross. Its triangular shape relates to the "fourth great light, which reminds us of the Deity and his attributes". The jewel that is worn is made of gold with the same three concentric triangles.

21° - Noachite or Prussian Knight

The lessons to be learned from this degree are that arrogance, defamation and cowardice are unworthy attributes of a Mason and that humility, modesty and courtesy are the true virtues of men and Masons. The apron worn is yellow and contains an arm holding a sword, a winged figure holding a key in the left hand and the right forefinger on the lips (the "Egyptian figure of Silence"). The jewel can be described as a point-up triangle, with an arrow, point downward, an arm holding a sword, and the motto "Fiat Justitia, Ruat Coelum."

22° - Knight Royal Axe, Prince of Libanus

This degree emphasizes work ethics: By doing good work we improve character and become better citizens. The apron worn in this degree is white, bordered in purple, and contains a three-headed serpent and a table with instruments and plans on it. The jewel is an axe and handle of gold. On the top of the handle are the initials of Noah and Solomon. In the middle of the handle are the initials of Libanus and Tsidun. On the blade are the initials of Adoniram, Cyrus, Darius, Zerubbabel, Nehemiah, Ezra (on one side) and Shem, Kham, Yapheth, Moses, Ahaliab, Betselal (on the other).

23° - Chief of the Tabernacle

We learn in this degree that the man who forgets his duty to God, family, country and himself will be in danger of moral and spiritual destruction by thoughts and unworthy ambition. The apron worn is white, bordered with red, blue and purple ribbons. These colors, from the curtains of the Tabernacle, represent earth, fire, air and sea, respectively, as well as the Lord's beneficence, glory, wisdom and power. On the apron is the golden seven-branched candlestick, representing the seven planets and virtues: Sun, faith "aspiration toward the infinite"; Moon, hope; Venus, charity; Mars, fortitude "victory over rage and anger"; Mercury, prudence; Saturn, temperance; Jupiter, conqueror of the Titans, justice. The jewel worn is a small silver censer, or ornamented cup, held by a handle in the shape of an open hand.

24° - Prince of the Tabernacle

A Mason must show evidence of compassion, piety and justice in this degree. After initiation he may "manifest faithfully the social virtues in order to receive the rewards", to serve humanity through our brotherhood. The apron worn is of white lambskin, with scarlet, green and blue. On it is a violet myrtle tree, and a gold representation of an Arabian tent. The jewel worn is the Hebrew letter ALEPH, suspended from a violet ribbon.

25° - Knight of the Brazen Serpent

This degree attempts to explain the conceptualities of celestial purity and the eternal soul of man. The apprentice is driven to look within his faith, life and God and to get a clear look at his inner self. The apron worn is white, lined in black, and with gold stars on the white side (Pleiades, Hyades, Orion, Capella) and with silver stars on the black side (Perseus, Scorpio, Bootes). Also on it is a serpent, ouroboros, surrounding a scarab, a triangle in a glory with the Tetragrammaton in its center, and the four initials of the stars Regulus, Aldebaran, Antares, and Fomalhaut. The jewel is a gold tau cross (crux ansata) with a serpent entwined around it, and the Hebrew words HLThI ("he has suffered or been wounded") and NChShThN ("the Brazen Serpent") on it.

26° - Prince of Mercy or Scottish Trinitarian

In this degree we explore for "the rewards of the trinity of Gods attributes - wisdom or intelligence, force or strength, harmony or beauty". The apron is scarlet, bordered in white, with a green triangle (point-down) in the center. In the triangle are the initials of force, wisdom, and harmony, and a flaming heart of gold with the initials I.H.S. (Jesus Hominum Salvator or Imperium, Harmonia, Sapientia). The jewel is gold and is the same triangle, suspended by a purple ribbon.

27° - Knight Commander of the Temple

This degree teaches the apprentice to scorn selfishness, and to uphold the knightly virtues of charity, truth and honor. We should always strive to assist the poor, helpless and infirm. The apron is of scarlet lambskin, lined in black, with a Teutonic Cross (cross potent sable, charged with a smaller cross double potent or, surcharged with the escutcheon of the Empire - the two-headed black eagle) and a black key surrounded by a laurel wreath. The jewel is the Teutonic Cross shown on the apron.

28° - Knight of the Sun or Prince Adept

We learn in this degree that our love for God manifests itself in our love for truth, justice and nobility of soul. The apron worn is white lambskin, with a vermilion pentagram. The jewel is a gold five-pointed star.

29° - Scottish Knight of Saint Andrew

The virtues taught in this degree are "Love of God, loyalty to superiors, faithful adherence to promise and active resistance to unfair judgment." There is no apron. The jewel is a gold St. Andrew's cross ("X"), surmounted with a knight's helmet with a thistle of gold between the arms at the bottom. In the center of the cross is a Hebrew YOD, and on its points, clockwise from bottom, the Hebrew letters N M I N.

30° - Knight of Kadosh or Knight of the White & Black Eagle

The lesson of this degree is to be true to ourselves, to stand for what is right and to be just in our lives today with a belief in God, country and oneself. There is no apron, but the jewel is a gold Teutonic cross, enameled in red, with a silver double-headed eagle, with wings spread pointing downward, resting upon it.

Consistory

The Consistory Degrees are very different from each other in form and content. The 31° reveals the dynamic relationship that has existed for centuries between human law as a means of achieving justice, and divine justice as an ideal. The 32° reviews the degrees of the Lodge of Perfection, the Chapter of Rose Croix and the Council of Kadosh.

31° - Inspector Inquisitor

In this degree the apprentice learns prayerful self-examination. The mistakes today should not be committed tomorrow. Simply, the daily look at ones self to learn to live with the future. No apron is worn in the Supreme Tribunal, but the traditional apron displayed is of pure white lambskin with a Teutonic Cross of black and silver embroidered upon the flap. The jewel is a silver Teutonic cross. The jewel is suspended from a white collar, with a gold triangle with a "31" inside it.

32° - Master of the Royal Secret

The lessons taught in this degree are that genuine brotherhood requires mutual regard, opinion, esteem and charity. We always look for the good in all, make allowances for others' shortcomings. We trust the Supreme Architect to lead us to friendship, morality and brotherly love. The apron worn in this degree is white, lined in black, with a double-headed eagle and a plan of the Camp of the Princes. The jewel worn is a golden Teutonic Cross. In the center are the letters XXXII, surrounded by a green wreath. The cap of a Master of the Royal Secret is black silk with a black band trimmed in gold. In the center front is a double-headed eagle emblem with a rayed equilateral triangle above in gold. The triangle is red, has 32° in its center, and is trimmed with gold.

Court of Honour

The Scottish Rite confers a number of honors upon members who have contributed extraordinary service to the Rite, to Masonry in general, and to the world at large.

Knight Commander of the Court of Honour

The Rank of Knight Commander of the Court of Honor is not a Degree, but an Investiture, bestowed upon members deserving recognition for faithful services to the Rite or to mankind. At the biennial session of the Supreme Council, certain Masters of the Royal Secret are chosen to be invested with the Rank and Decoration of Knight Commander of the Court of Honour. The respective Sovereign Grand Inspectors General or Deputies nominate members for this honor, and they must also be unanimously approved by The Supreme Council. This Investiture is a prerequisite to receiving the Thirty-third Degree. The Rank of K.∙.C.∙.C.∙.H.∙. may not be requested, and if requested must be refused. The cap of the Knight Commander Court of Honour is red with a darker red band trimmed in gold. In the center front is a representation of the Knight Commander Jewel, a Passion Cross with fancy arms, featuring in the center a trefoil embroidered in green encircled by "Kt.∙. Comm.∙. Court of Honour" embroidered in gold.

33° - Inspector General Honorary

The Thirty-third Degree is conferred by the Supreme Council upon members of the Rite in recognition of outstanding work in the Rite or in public life. At its biennial session the Supreme Council elects members of the Rite to receive the Degree. Members unanimously so elected become honorary members of the Supreme Council. The Thirty-third Degree may not be requested, and if requested must be refused. The Degree is granted solely out of recognition for outstanding services. These 33° Masons are Inspectors General Honorary and honorary members of the Supreme Council. The active members of the Supreme Council are chosen from among them. The cap for an Inspector General Honorary is white with a white band edged in gold, featuring the symbol for this honorary Degree, a red slanting Patriarchal Cross.

Grand Cross of the Court of Honour

This is the highest individual honor that The Supreme Council bestows. It is voted very rarely to Thirty-third Degree Masons only for the most exceptional and extraordinary services. The Grand Cross cap is white with a blue band. On the front is a replica of the Grand Cross jewel, which is composed of a Teutonic Cross, with an embroidered crimson rose with green leaves at its center.





http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/think004.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

[humito]

DO NOT FOLLOW THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION AS A PATH.......I FIND THIS PRAYER OF MASONIC RELEASE VERY INTERESTING THOUGH............................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............................................If you or someone you love is a descendant of a Mason, I recommend that you pray through the following prayer from your heart. Don't be like the Masons who are given their obligations and oaths one line at a time and without prior knowledge of the requirements. First, bind spirits of deception, antichrist, witchcraft, and death in the name of Jesus Christ. Then read it through so you know what is involved. It is best to pray this aloud with a Christian witness or counselor present. We suggest a brief pause following each paragraph to allow the Holy Spirit to show any additional issues that may require attention.

Father God, creator of heaven and earth, I come to You in the name of Jesus Christ Your Son. I come as a sinner seeking forgiveness and cleansing from all sins committed against You, and others made in your image. I honor my earthly father and mother and all of my ancestors of flesh and blood and by adoption, but I utterly turn away from and renounce all their sins. I forgive all my ancestors for the effects of their sins on my children and me. I confess and renounce all of my own sins. I renounce Satan and all of his works in my family and me.

I renounce and forsake all involvement in Freemasonry or any other lodge or craft by my ancestors and myself. I renounce witchcraft, the principal spirit behind Freemasonry, and I renounce Baphomet, the Spirit of Antichrist and the curse of the Luciferian doctrine. I renounce the idolatry, blasphemy, secrecy, and deception of Masonry at every level. I specifically renounce the insecurity, the love of position and power, the love of money, covetousness, and greed, and the pride/arrogance that would have led my ancestors into Masonry. I renounce all the fears that held them in Masonry, especially the fears of death, fears of men, and fears of trusting, in the name of Jesus Christ.

I renounce every position held in the lodge by any of my ancestors, including Tyler, Master, Worshipful Master, or any other. I renounce the calling of any man Master, for Jesus Christ is my only Master and Lord, and He forbids anyone else having that title. I renounce the entrapping of others into Masonry, and observing the helplessness of others during the rituals. I renounce the effects of Masonry passed on to me through any female ancestor who felt distrusted and rejected by her husband as he entered and attended any lodge and refused to tell her of his secret activities.

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THE BLUE LODGE
First Degree: I renounce the oaths taken by any of my ancestors or me and the curses involved in the First or Entered Apprentice Degree, especially their effects on the throat and tongue. I renounce the Hoodwink, the blindfold, and its effects on emotions and eyes, including all confusion, fear of the dark, fear of the light, and fear of sudden noises. I renounce the secret word, BOAZ which stands for the left pillar of the temple of Solomon. I renounce the mixing and mingling of truth and error, and the blasphemy of this degree of Masonry. I renounce the noose around the neck, the fear of choking and also every spirit causing asthma, hayfever, emphysema or any other breathing difficulty. I renounce the compass point, sword or spear held against the breast, the fear of death by stabbing pain and the fear of heart attack from this degree. In the name of Jesus Christ, I now pray for the healing of the throat, vocal cords, nasal passages, sinuses, bronchial tubes, allergies and asthma, for healing of the speech area, and the release of the word of God to me and through my family and me.

Second Degree: I renounce the oaths taken by any of my ancestors or me and the curses involved in the Second or Fellow Craft Degree of Masonry, especially the curses on the heart and chest. I renounce the secret words JACHIN, which designates the right pillar of the temple of Solomon and SHIBBOLETH, which means, "I am that I am". I renounce the blasphemy of these words because only God can say these words. I cut off emotional hardness, apathy, indifference, unbelief, and deep anger from my family and me. In the name of Jesus Christ I pray for the healing of the chest/lung/heart area and for the healing of my emotions and ask to be made sensitive to the Holy Spirit of God.

Third Degree: I renounce the oaths taken by any of my ancestors or me and the curses involved in the Third or Master Mason Degree, especially the curses on the stomach and womb area. I renounce the secret words MAH-HAH-BONE, MACHABEN, MACHBINNA, all of which mean to be brought down or brought under. I renounce the meaning of TUBAL CAIN, (meaning is benevolence and Cain was after all a murderer). I renounce the spirit of death from the blows to the head enacted as ritual murder, the fear of death, false martyrdom, fear of violent gang attack, assault, or rape, and the helplessness of this degree. I renounce the falling into the coffin or stretcher involved in the ritual murder. I renounce the false resurrection of this degree, because only Jesus Christ is the Resurrection and the Life! I also renounce the blasphemous kissing of the Bible on a witchcraft oath. I cut off all spirits of death, witchcraft, and deception and in the name of Jesus Christ I pray for the healing of the stomach, gall bladder, womb, liver, and any other organs of my body affected by Masonry, and I ask for a release of compassion and understanding for my family and me. I renounce being resurrected into the light of Freemasonry.

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YORK RITE
I renounce the oaths taken by any of my ancestors or me and the penalties and the curses involved in the York Rite of Freemasonry, including these degrees:
I renounce the:
Fourth Degree: Mark Master, the secret word JOPPA, the keystone/mark, and the penalty of having the right ear smote off causing permanent deafness and the right hand chopped off for being an impostor.
I renounce the:
Fifth Degree: Past Master, I renounce the secret words and curses with the penalty of having my tongue split from tip to root.
I renounce the:
Sixth Degree: Most Excellent Master, with the penalty of having my breast torn open and vital organs removed and exposed to rot on the dung hill.
I renounce the so called:
Seventh Degree: Holy Royal Arch, its secret words JAH-BU-LON which stands for Baal and the penalty of having my brain exposed to the scorching rays of the meridian sun. I renounce false communions or Eucharist's, all mockery, skepticism, and unbelief about the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary.
I renounce the:
Eighth Degree: Royal Master, the oaths, secret words and curses.
I renounce the:
Ninth Degree: Select Master, and the penalties of having my hands chopped off to the stumps, my eyes plucked out from their sockets, my body quartered and thrown among the rubbish of the temple. I renounce the secret words connected with this degree.
I renounce the:
Tenth Degree: Super Excellent Master and the penalties of having my thumbs cut off, my eyes put out, my body bound in fetters and brass and conveyed captive to a strange land.
I renounce the:
Eleventh Degree: Knights Order of the Red Cross. I renounce the oath and it's accompanying curses. I renounce the secret words Judah and Benjamin in order to give the character of lion and wolf, respectively. I renounce the spirit of the roaring lion, the devil himself. (1 Peter. 5:8).
I renounce the:
Twelfth Degree: Knights Templar, the secret word KEB RAIOTH, I renounce the oath and the curse of having my head struck off and placed on the highest spire of Christendom if ever the secrets come out. I renounce the drinking of wine from the skull of death.
I renounce the
Thirteenth Degree: Knights of Malta, the secret word MAHER-SHALAL-HASH-BAZ. In reality, Isaiah's son), I renounce the taking on of the sins of another person and the curses and oaths involved with this degree.

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ANCIENT & ACCEPTED Scottish RITE
I renounce the oaths taken by any of my ancestors or me and the curses involved in the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite including:
I renounce the;
Fourth Degree: Secret Master, the secret word ADONAI, with the Masonic meaning of god of darkness and evil and the penalties of all former degrees.
I renounce the:
Fifth Degree: Perfect Master, the secret word MAH-HAH-BONE, meaning to be brought down; and the penalty of being smitten to the earth with a setting maul.
I renounce the:
Sixth Degree: Intimate Secretary. I renounce the secret word JEHOVAH and the false meaning given to it. I renounce the penalty of having my body dissected, and my vital organs cut into pieces and thrown to the beasts of the field.
I renounce the:
Seventh Degree: Provost and Judge, the secret words HIRUM-TITO-CIVI-KY, and the penalty of having my nose cut off.
I renounce the:
Eighth Degree: Intendant of the Building, the secret word AKAR-JAI-JAH, and the penalties of having my eyes put out, my body cut in two and my bowels exposed.
I renounce the;
Ninth Degree: Elected Knights of the Nine, the secret words NEKAM and NEKAH meaning vengeance, and the penalty of having my head cut off and stuck on the highest pole in the East as a monument of my villainy.
I renounce the:
Tenth Degree: Illustrious Elect of Fifteen, the secret word of ELIGNAM, and the penalties of having my body opened perpendicularly and horizontally, exposed to the air for eight hours so that flies may prey on it, and for my head to be cut off and placed on the highest pinnacle in the world.
I renounce the:
Eleventh Degree: Sublime Knights Elect of the Twelve, the secret word STOLKIN-ADONAI (god of darkness and evil), and the penalty of having my hand cut in twain.
I renounce the:
Twelfth Degree: Grand Master Architect and the secret word RAB-BANAIM. I renounce the Masonic building pattern from off of my life. I declare that my life is built on the foundation of the Lord Jesus Christ and none other.
I renounce the:
Thirteenth Degree: Knight of the Ninth Arch of Solomon, the secret word JEHOVAH, and the penalty of my body being given to the beasts of the forest as prey. I renounce and break the curse of my life being in peril of death.
I renounce the:
Fourteenth Degree: Grand Elect Mason or Perfect Elu. I renounce and break the seal of the Great Architect of the Universe. I renounce and break the seal of the antichrist, in Jesus' name. I renounce all curses of disease and I renounce the curse of inflicting vengeance upon those who renounce Freemasonry. I renounce the secret words connected with this degree.

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COUNCIL OF PRINCES OF JERUSALEM
I renounce the oaths taken by any of my ancestors or me and the curses involved in the Council of Princes of Jerusalem degrees of Freemasonry.
I renounce the:
Fifteenth Degree: Knights of the East and the secret word RAPH-O-DOM.
I renounce the
Sixteenth Degree: Prince of Jerusalem, the secret word TEBET-ADAR, and the penalty of being stripped naked and having my heart pierced with a poniard.
For the 15th and 16th degrees together I renounce being a warrior to protect the building of the temple of the Great Architect of the Universe and for the anti-Christ. I renounce all alliance with the Prince of Persia.(Daniel 8) I renounce, break and destroy the law of the Medes and the Persians. I renounce all allegiance to the law of the Medes and the Persians. I renounce being intimidated by the Prince of Persia.

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CHAPTER OF THE ROSE CROIX
I renounce the oaths taken by any of my ancestors or me and the curses involved in the Chapter of the Rose Croix degrees of Freemasonry.
I renounce the:
Seventeenth Degree: Knights of the East and West, the secret word ABADDON, the destroyer and the penalty of incurring the severe wrath of the Almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth. I renounce taking on the name of the demon of Death and Hell. I renounce the Lordship of Abaddon off my life. I renounce the ritual blood sacrifice that occurs as the candidate purifies himself or herself by washing their robes in their own blood. I renounce this as a false cleansing. I renounce becoming my own "blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin. I renounce shedding my blood for the atonement of sin. I break the curse of the false Masonic atonement. I renounce and break the curse of untimely death. I renounce the false breaking of the seven seals. I renounce the mockery of the Lamb of God.
I renounce the:
Eighteenth Degree: Knight of the Pelican and the Eagle & Sovereign Prince Rose Croix of Heredom, the secret words IGNE NATURA RENOVATUR INTEGRA, and the penalties of being forever deprived of the word, to be perpetually in darkness, my blood continually running from my body, to suffer without intermission the most cruel remorse for the soul, that the bitterest gall mixed with vinegar be my constant drink and the sharpest thorns be my pillow and death on the cross complete my punishment. I renounce all beliefs that I am perfect. I renounce all beliefs that I need to be purified with the fire of Freemasonry. I announce that God purifies His children. Mal 3:2-3. I renounce all ungodly suffering that comes from this degree. I renounce the spirit guide of Freemasonry. I renounce any imparted inability to receive His grace.
I renounce and reject the Pelican witchcraft spirit, as well as the occult influence of the Rosicrucians and the Kabbala in this degree. I renounce the claim that the death of Jesus Christ was a "dire calamity," and also the deliberate mockery and twisting of the Christian doctrine of the atonement. I renounce the blasphemy and rejection of the deity of Jesus Christ, and the mockery of the communion taken in this degree, including a biscuit, salt, and white wine.
renounce the oaths taken by any of my ancestors or me and the curses involved in the Council of Kadosh degrees of Freemasonry:
I renounce the:
Nineteenth Degree: Grand Pontiff and the secret word EMMANUEL and all ungodly meanings I renounce any evil that has been associated with the word Emanuel. I renounce the false Masonic throne and sceptre. I renounce the Masonic anointing as a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec. I renounce being in the priesthood of Satan. I renounce the stars of the zodiac and all the powers of darkness associated with astrology and divination. I renounce all false doctrine of the 144,000 of the book of Revelation. I renounce the oath of total obedience to the Masons and announce that I chose to obey the Lord Jesus Christ alone.
I renounce the:
Twentieth Degree: Grand Master of Symbolic Lodges, the secret words JEKSON/STOLKIN and the penalties of all former obligations. I renounce the quest for occult knowledge and the false truth of Freemasonry.
I renounce the:
Twenty-first Degree: Knight of the Prussian Knight and the secret word Peleg, which means divided.
I renounce the:
Twenty-second Degree: Knight of the Royal Axe or Prince Libanus and the secret words NOAH-BEZALEEI-SODONIAS. I renounce the power of the Masonic axe to cut down the people of God. I renounce the axe of Freemasonry that totally opposes the building of God's Tabernacle.
I renounce the;
Twenty-third Degree: Chief of the Tabernacle, the secret words URIEL-JEHOVAH and the penalty that the earth should open up and engulf me up to my neck so I perish.
I renounce the:
Twenty-fourth Degree: Prince of the Tabernacle and the penalty that I should be stoned to death and my body left above ground to rot
I renounce the;
Twenty-fifth Degree: Knight of the Brazen Serpent, the secret words MOSES-JOHANNES and the penalty that I have my heart eaten by venomous serpents.
I renounce the:
Twenty-sixth Degree: Prince of Mercy, the secret words GOMEL and JEHOVAH-JACHIN, and the penalty of condemnation and spite by the entire universe.
I renounce the;
Twenty-seventh Degree: Knight Commander of the Temple and the secret word SOLOMON. The word to the Masons stands for the following: Sol is Latin for sun god, om is the Hindu name for deity and on refers to the sun god of Egypt. I renounce the penalty of receiving the severest wrath of God inflicted upon me.
I renounce the:
Twenty-eighth Degree: Knight Commander of the Sun, or Prince Adept, the secret word STIBIUM and the penalties of having my tongue thrust through with a red-hot iron, my eyes plucked out, my senses of smelling and hearing removed, my hands cut off and in that condition to be left for voracious animals to devour me, or be executed by lightening from heaven.
I renounce the:
Twenty-ninth Degree: Grand Scottish Knight of Saint Andrew and the secret words NEKAMAH-FURLAC. I renounce the penalties and oaths associated with this degree.
I renounce the
Thirtieth Degree: Council of Kadosh, Grand Pontiff, and Knight of the Black and White Eagle, the secret words EMMANUEL, STIBIUM ALKABAR, PHARASH-KOH and all they mean, with all the former penalties applied.

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CONSISTORY OF SUBLIME PRINCES OF THE ROYAL SECRET
I renounce the oaths taken by any of my ancestors or me and the curses involved in the Consistory of Sublime Princes of the Royal Secret degrees of Freemasonry, including:
Thirty-first Degree: Grand Inspector Inquisitor Commander. I renounce all the gods and goddesses of Egypt which are honored in this degree, including Anubis with the ram's head, all sun gods, including Ra, Re, Aten and Osiris; and Isis the sister and wife of Osiris and also the moon goddess. I renounce the mother goddess Diana or Artemas. I renounce the Soul of Cheres, the false symbol of immortality, the Chamber of the Dead, and the false teaching of reincarnation.
I renounce the:
Thirty-second Degree: Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret and its secret words PHAAL and PHARASH-KOL. I renounce Masonry's false trinitarian deity, AUM, and its parts: Brahma the creator, Vishnu the preserver and Shiva the destroyer. I renounce the deity of AHURA-MAZDA, the claimed spirit or source of all light, and worship with fire, which is an abomination to God, and the drinking from a human skull in some rites.
I renounce the:
Thirty-third Degree: Grand Sovereign Inspector General, the secret words DEMOLAY-HIRAM ABIFF, FREDERICK OF PRUSSIA, MICHA, MACHA, BEALIM, and ADONAI (the god of darkness and evil); and its penalties being all the former ones, including having my tongue torn out by its roots. I renounce and forsake the declaration that Lucifer is God. I renounce the cable-tow around the neck. I renounce the death wish that the wine drunk from a human skull should turn to poison and the skeleton whose cold arms are invited if the oath of this degree is violated. I renounce the three infamous assassins of their grand master, which are law, property and religion, and the greed and witchcraft involved in the attempt to manipulate and control the rest of mankind
SHRINERS (This exists in America only)
I renounce the oaths taken by my ancestors or me and the curses and penalties involved in the Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine. I renounce the piercing of the eyeballs with a three-edged blade, the flaying of the feet and being forced to walk the hot sands upon the sterile shores of the Red Sea until the flaming sun shall strike me with a livid plague. I renounce the madness, the hoodwink, the mock hanging, the mock beheading, the mock drinking of the blood of the victim, the mock dog urinating on the initiate, and the offering of urine as a commemoration. I renounce the worship of the false god Allah as the god of my fathers.

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ALL OTHER DEGREES, SECRET LODGES AND SOCIETIES
I renounce any other secret words, attributing false gods' names to God, and idolatrous symbols, such as
• The Horus, or All-Seeing Eye, which was the emblem of Osiris (the sun god), the creator worshipped by the ancient Egyptians and passed off on current day Masons as the eye of the one true God;
• The G, which the lower degree Masons are told represents geometry or the Great Architect of the Universe (who upper degree Masons learn is Lucifer) but actually can stand for whatever god one chooses, and in books for the upper degrees means "Generating Principal" (phallus);
• The Blazing Star, actually symbolizes various pagan gods and witchcraft;
• The obelisk, which symbolizes a phallus or penis as an emblem of resurrection (but not Christian resurrection);
• The mark in the form of squares and angles which marks the person for life;
• The point within a circle, which the first three degrees of Masons are taught represents the individual Mason inside the bounds of Masonic duty, but which is revealed to the upper level Mason to represent the sexual union of Osiris and Isis, signifying the prolific powers of nature;
• The Masonic square and compass which likewise represents the sex act;
• The Apron, a symbol of the Masonic belief that salvation must be earned which is a direct violation of Scripture;
• The jewel or talisman that may have been made from this mark sign and worn at lodge meetings;
• The Shriner's fez, which celebrates the Muslim massacre of 50,000 Christians in the Moroccan city of Fez;
• and all others.
I renounce all allegiances to individuals or organizations that are in conflict with the primary allegiance of my life, Jesus Christ, as revealed in God's word, the Bible. I ask God to cut off all these curses and their effects on my family and me. In the name of Jesus Christ, I pray for the healing of any area where healing is needed by any of us.

I renounce all the other oaths taken by any of my ancestors or me, the rituals and the curses of every other lodge, degree and order involved in Freemasonry anywhere in the world. These include, in part. Prince Hall Masonry (the lodge structure for American Blacks), the Allied Degrees, the Grand Orient Lodges of France, Italy, Central and South America, the Red Cross of Constantine, the Order of the Secret Monitor, the Masonic Royal Order of Scotland, the Order of Amaranth, and the women's Orders of the Eastern Star, of the Ladies Oriental Shrine, and of the White Shrine of Jerusalem; the girls' Orders of the Daughters of the Eastern Star, the International Orders of Job's Daughters and of the Rainbow; and the boys' Order of De Molay,

I renounce involvement by any of my ancestors or me in all other secret societies with ties to Masonry, such as, Mormonism, the Royal Order of Jesters, the Manchester Unity Order of Oddfellows, the Independent Order of Oddfellows and its women's auxiliary called the International Association of Rebekah Assemblies, Buffaloes, Druids, Foresters, Orange, Elks, Moose and Eagles Lodges, the Ku Klux Klan, the White Supremacy Movement, the Grange, the Woodmen of the World, Riders of the Red Robe, the Knights of Pythias, the Mystic order of the Veiled Prophets of the Enchanted Realm, and their effects on me and all my family. I renounce the New World Order, the One World Government, the Iluminati, the Theosophical Society, Kabbalism, the Third Reich, the Fourth Reich and any other organizations involved with the Masons in the satanic conspiracy to rule the world.

I renounce the ancient pagan teaching of the First Tracing Board, the Second Tracing Board and the Third Tracing Board used in the ritual of the Blue Lodge. I renounce the pagan ritual of the "Point within a Circle" with all its bondage's and phallus worship. I renounce the occult mysticism of the black and white mosaic checkered floor with the tessellated border and the five-pointed blazing star. I renounce the symbol "G" and it's veiled pagan symbolism and bondages. I renounce and utterly forsake the Great Architect of the Universe, who is revealed in the higher degrees as Lucifer, and his false claim to be the universal fatherhood of God. I also renounce the false claim that Lucifer is the Morning Star and Shining One and I declare that Jesus Christ is the Bright and Morning Star of Revelation 22:16.

I renounce the All-Seeing Third Eye of Freemasonry, or Horus, in the forehead and the obelisk and their pagan and occult symbolism. I renounce all false communions taken, all mockery of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary, all unbelief, confusion and depression, and all worship of Lucifer as God. I renounce and forsake the lie of Freemasonry that man is not sinful, but just imperfect, and so can redeem himself through good works. I rejoice that the Bible states that I cannot do a single thing to earn my salvation, but that I can only be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and what He accomplished on the cross of Calvary.

Father God, I repent of and seek forgiveness for the sins committed by my ancestors and me
• of walking on unholy ground, including Freemasonry, Mormon, occult and pagan property dedicated to the worship of false gods;
• for the sin of idolatry committed by my ancestors and me of looking to anyone or anything other than the one true Savior, Jesus Christ, for salvation, rescue, protection, or provision;
• for all subversion of justice practiced by the Freemasons or any other organization to which my ancestors or I belonged;
• for the collaboration of the Freemasons in the satanic conspiracy to rule the world.
Father God, I confess to You that when my ancestors and I complained against You we gave Satan a legal right to put the Destroyer in our bloodlines. And when we rebelled against You and rejected Your rightful place as our God, we gave Satan a legal right to deceive us with all the gods of the gentiles. Some of us committed the sin of idolatry by joining Freemasonry. Even if they (we) joined Freemasonry ignorant of its true nature, we are nevertheless guilty of all of its sins. I acknowledge your justice in putting a curse on our bloodlines for this sin and the many sins that followed either by commission or by allegiance to the organization committing the sins. These sins include, in addition to those already confessed, all of the atrocities of satanic ritual abuse practiced at secret levels of Freemasonry: blasphemous rituals, blood sacrifices, animal and human sacrifices, sexual sacrifices, rape, bestiality, sexual immorality, illegitimate births, breeding babies for the purpose of sacrificing them, torture, murder, violence, and mind control (by ElectroVoltOverLoad), withholding normal love, soul shattering, torture, programming and demonization of infants and children, plus any others.

Thank You for Your mercy toward me when you called me to yourself and gave me faith to believe in Your Son Jesus' atonement for me on the cross. He was made a curse for me so that I no longer have to live under any curse. I ask You, Father God, in the name of Jesus, to forgive all of this generational iniquity in my bloodlines and cleanse it away so the curses do not come down to me or to my children to a thousand generations. I ask You, Jesus, to cleanse my body, soul, and spirit and to deliver me of all the effects of this generational iniquity.

Now dear Father God, I ask humbly for the blood of Jesus Christ, Your Son, to cleanse me from all these sins I have confessed and renounced, to cleanse my spirit, soul and every part of my body, which has been effected by these sins, in Jesus name!
Lord Jesus, I ask You to destroy the spiritual equivalents of the physical objects used in Masonry that I now symbolically remove and give to You:
• the hoodwink (a blindfold)
• the veil of mourning
• the mail around the neck
• the Masonic sandals
• the noose, which I cut from around the neck and gather together with the cable-tow running down the body
• the ring of the false Freemasonry marriage covenant, which I renounce, from the ring finger of the right hand or the middle finger of the right hand.
• The chains and bondages of Freemasonry on the body
• the ball and chains from the ankles
• all Freemasonry effects, regalia and armor, especially the apron
• all KKK or other secret organization regalia
I renounce every evil spirit associated with Masonry and witchcraft and all other sins and, in the name of Jesus Christ, I command Satan's evil spirits to be bound up into one, leaving nothing of evil remaining, and to leave me now, touching or banning no one, and to go to the place appointed for you by the Lord Jesus, never to return to me or my family. I claim the promise of God's word that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be delivered. Jesus, I ask to be delivered of every spirit of sickness, infirmity, curse, affliction, addiction, disease or allergy associated with these sins that I have confessed and renounced and I ask You to heal me and my family of all effects they have had.

I surrender to God's Holy Spirit and to no other spirit all the places in my life where these sins have effected me. I ask You, Lord, to fill me with (and baptize me in) Your Holy Spirit now according to the promises in Your word. I take to myself the whole armor of God promised in Ephesians 6 and rejoice in its protection as Jesus surrounds me with His Holy Spirit. I enthrone You in my heart. Lord Jesus, for You are my Lord and Savior, and my source of eternal life. Thank You, Father God, for Your mercy, Your forgiveness and Your love, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.




LOL.......IS VERY INTRIGUING DONT KNOW HOW OLD IT IS...............................ALL THIS RITUAL ............IS ALL TAKEN TO EXTREMES FROM RELIGIOUS / MASONIC /OCCULT SOCIETIES...........ALL MIND CONTROL AND SPIRITUALY BINDING.............. I.M.O;)....... YOU DONT NEED A WEATHERMAN TO KNOW WHICH WAY THE WIND BLOWS.............

[lightindarkness]

Oh dear LID.


No my friend, stress friend, was very clear about it, though as I say I am sure it was a wind up. Whether you believe my experiences in life is up to you. the interview was a lodge interview for joinging a lodge, a lodge that ultimately some weeks/a couple of months later rejected me.

I admit that I sometimes struggle with banter, which is why I said I am sure it was a joke. The interview was very real I can show you the rejection letter.

This explains so much about why you go around taking everything out of context, thanks!

Probably - well definitely actually, since there are no 360 degrees - a joke.

[lightindarkness]

LOL.......IS VERY INTRIGUING DONT KNOW HOW OLD IT IS...............................ALL THIS RITUAL ............IS ALL TAKEN TO EXTREMES FROM RELIGIOUS / MASONIC /OCCULT SOCIETIES...........ALL MIND CONTROL AND SPIRITUALY BINDING.............. I.M.O;)....... YOU DONT NEED A WEATHERMAN TO KNOW WHICH WAY THE WIND BLOWS.............

Its just the same evangelical bigotry that has been seeking to demonize everything that does not give the church power. Nothing unusual here. Although personally as a Christian I can't wait until all these other "Christians" get told by God himself just how wrong they were to persecute freemasonry :)

My favorite part is how they just go along making things up until it gets more and more absurd "the masonic square and compass representing a sex act"?! Only the most gullible can fall for this stuff.

[humito]

well i just think that it doesnt matter if its christian or masonic..........its not freedom

[lightindarkness]

well i just think that it doesnt matter if its christian or masonic..........its not freedom

Whatever makes you happy. I know being anti-everything is trendy. People choose to be Christians/Freemasons/whatever. Its their freedom to do so.

[humito]

." Although personally as a Christian I can't wait until all these other "Christians" get told by God himself just how wrong they were to persecute freemasonry :)" ............written by a mason.............

yes we all have a right to believe what we want..........but with the above comment you made this only confirms my doubts about freemasonry and christianity as viable spiritual options............!!!! you seem to be baying for blood?? what will god do to these heretics and unbelievers who persecute masonry? torment them in hell forever because freemasonry is the one true way of god realisation and everyone who is not a brother will be judged by a wrathfull God ? very christian and forgiving and full of brotherly love................lol............sicko I bet you get off on all the sworn secrets and death threats and intimated violence in your rituals............wish it was all real do you?? ..........you obviously have no knowledge of occult practice otherwise you would see through the symbolism of masonry........also dont accuse me of being a trendy nihalist..........its the very thing i am not

[lightindarkness]

." Although personally as a Christian I can't wait until all these other "Christians" get told by God himself just how wrong they were to persecute freemasonry :)" ............written by a mason.............

yes we all have a right to believe what we want..........but with the above comment you made this only confirms my doubts about freemasonry and christianity as viable spiritual options............!!!! you seem to be baying for blood?? what will god do to these heretics and unbelievers who persecute masonry? torment them in hell forever because freemasonry is the one true way of god realisation and everyone who is not a brother will be judged by a wrathfull God ? very christian and forgiving and full of brotherly love................lol............sicko I bet you get off on all the sworn secrets and death threats and intimated violence in your rituals............wish it was all real do you?? ..........you obviously have no knowledge of occult practice otherwise you would see through the symbolism of masonry........also dont accuse me of being a trendy nihalist..........its the very thing i am not

You are looking for things to confirm your preconceived notions. If Jesus Christ himself came down you'd say "Ah ha! This is the example that shows Christianity is horrible!" It's trendy to be anti-everything, including anti-Christian, so you are turning and warping everything you see so that it fits what you want to believe is true.

You are quite the sicko and demented if you fantasize about freemasonry having "death threats and intimated violence" - sorry to break your illusions, but neither exist. Nor do any secrets exist for that matter. Please do your research and learn about what you speak because you are displaying an astounding level of ignorance.

I am glad I convinced you that freemasonry is not a viable spiritual option. Indeed, its not a spiritual option at all. Its not spiritual, was never meant to be spiritual, and will never be spiritual. Its also not a religion.

[humito]

well you can tell that a mile away :)

[boots]

." Although personally as a Christian I can't wait until all these other "Christians" get told by God himself just how wrong they were to persecute freemasonry :)" ............written by a mason.............

yes we all have a right to believe what we want..........but with the above comment you made this only confirms my doubts about freemasonry and christianity as viable spiritual options............!!!! you seem to be baying for blood?? what will god do to these heretics and unbelievers who persecute masonry? torment them in hell forever because freemasonry is the one true way of god realisation and everyone who is not a brother will be judged by a wrathfull God ? very christian and forgiving and full of brotherly love................lol............sicko I bet you get off on all the sworn secrets and death threats and intimated violence in your rituals............wish it was all real do you?? ..........you obviously have no knowledge of occult practice otherwise you would see through the symbolism of masonry........also dont accuse me of being a trendy nihalist..........its the very thing i am not

Good post:) You called this loser out for what he is. A true mind controlled fool.


.

[elirien]

I am glad I convinced you that freemasonry is not a viable spiritual option. Indeed, its not a spiritual option at all. Its not spiritual, was never meant to be spiritual, and will never be spiritual. Its also not a religion.

really :D

[lightindarkness]

really :D

Really. :rolleyes:

[lightindarkness]

Good post:) You called this loser out for what he is. A true mind controlled fool.


.

Nice try fascist, but you've failed again. :)

[humito]

Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled ......................

The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry.....................:eek:

[stewart edwards]

Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled ......................Apologies for picking up on a small point:

I can only talk about the Mysteries as I understand them but I dont think that you can say that "all" the Mysteries try to mislead. It is just you see different things the further you delve.

I could say to use "Hero" by Mariah Carey is a great song.
I could aslo say that it makes me feel good inside.
I could also say that when you listen to the words, really listen to them, you are being sung some of the most ancient knowledge on this planet.

Different layers, but at no stage has there been any intention to deceive. It is just that "what you get from it" can change as you reflect and think and open your heart. It was only a couple of weeks ago that I realised the ancient knowledge "the Mystery" within the words was there, even though I had heard the song previously. It is not the intention to decieive, more a case of being hidden in plain sight ready and waiting for "you" to be ready to grasp the inner teachings.

Now work this backwards. If I tried to explain the above to most people, they would go "he is do-lalley" (could be true:)), so I may just say that the song makes me feel good. But when someone says hey Stewart you will never believe me but..... I may say - I know. At no stage have I lied or given false info, just patiently waited until the person is ready to pass the veil and see for themselves.

If your are quoting, it may be that the author was simply a man of their day. Society moves on, attitudes progress, wrongs of one generation are righted by subsequent ones. Also in the past people have been tortured and murdered for holding such knowledge. Probably still happens somewhere in the world.

If you humito want to access teh hidden knowledge of the Mysteries you will find all of the answers in your daily life - seriously. It is all there, all the real stuff that matters anyway. Hidden in the plain sight of your work, commute, shopping, family, friends, casual chats in the street, etc. If you ever find that you have an undefinable itch in your heart that there is something more to life, something that you are not quite getting, then that can be the start of finding it all. It took me over a decade, which is a long time, but it is also a short time in respect of your average lifespan. It is there ready and waiting for you..

[keystone]

....................freemasonry.............. Its not spiritual, was never meant to be spiritual, and will never be spiritual.I think it is.

Its also not a religion.Agreed.

[keystone]

Good post:) You called this loser out for what he is. A true mind controlled fool.


Nice try fascist, but you've failed again. :)

This relationship is really working guys isn't it? :D

[boots]

This relationship is really working guys isn't it? :D

I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire..

This LID poster is a shill. Starts out calling anyone that doen't fit his small ego a Fascist :rolleyes: His been looking in the mirror to long.

.

[mike martin]

Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled ......................

The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry.....................:eek:

Humito,
If you were familiar with that book, like the first person who cobbled that almost famous (now) quote together, you too would know that Pike's words have been warped in order to support an anti-Masonic agenda.

For you benefit, I reproduce what I responded with when it was last rolled out:

What you have reproduced is not actually what Pike wrote! It is, in fact, two separate quotes from either end of an 800+ page philosophical book and unsuprisingly they were talking about different things. This is why I keep suggesting that those who insist on using Pike to shore up their theories should actually read the book themselves rather than regurgitating what they have been spoon fed by people with an agenda.

Here are the actual quotes in their original context and I have made the bits that have been extracted and fed to you bold. I think that once you have read them that even you if you are honest will be able to see that Pike was talking about different things in each part of what became the "excalibur" of quotes when it comes to "hidden higher levels" of Freemasonry.:

Page 104-05, Pike talking about how Freemasonry conceals its secrets from outsiders not Masons:


Quote:
Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled; to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it. Truth is not for those who are unworthy or unable to receive it, or would pervert it. So God Himself incapacitates many men, by color-blindness, to distinguish colors, and leads the masses away from the highest Truth, giving them the power to attain only so much of it as it is profitable to them to know. Every age has had a religion suited to its capacity.

The Teachers, even of Christianity, are, in general, the most ignorant of the true meaning of that which they teach. There is no book of which so little is known as the Bible. To most who read it, it is as incomprehensible as the Sohar.

So Masonry jealously conceals its secrets, and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray. There is no sight under the sun more pitiful and ludicrous at once, than the spectacle of the Prestons and the Webbs, not to mention the later incarnations of Dullness and Commonplace, undertaking to "explain" the old symbols of Masonry, and adding to and "improving" them, or inventing new ones.

Then on page 818 - 819, we find Pike talking about the historical Knights Templar:


Quote:
Thus the Order of Knights of the Temple was at its very origin devoted to the cause of opposition to the tiara of Rome and the crowns of Kings, and the Apostolate of Kabalistic Gnosticism was vested in its chiefs. For Saint John himself was the Father of the Gnostics, and the current translation of his polemic against the heretical of his Sect and the pagans who denied that Christ was the Word, is throughout a misrepresentation, or misunderstanding at least, of the whole Spirit of that Evangel.

"The tendencies and tenets of the Order were enveloped in profound mystery, and it externally professed the most perfect orthodoxy. The Chiefs alone knew the aim of the Order: the Subalterns followed them without distrust.

"To acquire influence and wealth, then to intrigue, and at need to fight, to establish the Johannite or Gnostic and Kabalistic dogma, were the object and means proposed to the initiated Brethren. The Papacy and the rival monarchies, they said to them, are sold and bought in these days, become corrupt, and to-morrow, perhaps, will destroy each other. All that will become the heritage of the Temple: the World will soon come to us for its Sovereigns and Pontiffs. We shall constitute the equilibrium of the Universe, and be rulers over the Masters of the World.

"The Templars, like all other Secret Orders and Associations, had two doctrines, one concealed and reserved for the Masters, which was Johannism; the other public, which was the Roman Catholic. Thus they deceived the adversaries whom they sought to supplant. Hence Free-Masonry, vulgarly imagined to have begun with the Dionysian Architects or the German Stone-workers, adopted Saint John the Evangelist as one of its patrons, associating with him, in order not to arouse the suspicions of Rome, Saint John the Baptist, and thus covertly proclaiming itself the child of the Kabalah and Essenism together."

[For the Johannism of the Adepts was the Kabalah of the earlier Gnostics, degenerating afterward into those heretical forms which Gnosticism developed, so that even Manes had his followers among them. Many adopted his doctrines of the two Principles, the recollection of which is perpetuated by the handle of the dagger and the tesserated pavement or floor of the Lodge, stupidly called "the Indented Tessel," and represented by great hanging tassels, when it really means a tesserated floor (from the Latin tessera) of white and black lozenges, with a necessarily denticulated or indented border or edging. And wherever, in the higher Degrees, the two colors white and black, are in juxtaposition, the two Principles of Zoroaster and Manes are alluded to. With others the doctrine became a mystic Pantheism, descended from that of the Brahmins, and even pushed to an idolatry of Nature and hatred of every revealed dogma.

[To all this the absurd reading of the established Church, taking literally the figurative, allegorical, and mythical language of a collection of Oriental books of different ages, directly and inevitably led. The same result long after followed the folly of regarding the Hebrew books as if they had been written by the unimaginative, hard, practical intellect of the England of James the First and the bigoted stolidity of Scottish Presbyterianism.]

"The better to succeed and win partisans, the Templars sympathized with regrets for dethroned creeds and encouraged the hopes of new worships, promising to all liberty of conscience and a new orthodoxy that should be the synthesis of all the persecuted creeds."

[It is absurd to suppose that men of intellect adored a monstrous idol called Baphomet, or recognized Mahomet as an inspired prophet. Their symbolism, invented ages before, to conceal what it was dangerous to avow, was of course misunderstood by those who were not adepts, and to their enemies seemed to be pantheistic. The calf of gold, made by Aaron for the Israelites, was but one of the oxen under the laver of bronze, and the Karobim on the Propitiatory, misunderstood. The symbols of the wise always become the idols of the ignorant multitude. What the Chiefs of the Order really believed and taught, is indicated to the Adepts by the hints contained in the high Degrees of Free-Masonry, and by the symbols which only the Adepts understand.

The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain. It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept. Masonry is the veritable Sphinx, buried to the head in the sands heaped round it by the ages.]

The seeds of decay were sown in the Order of the Temple at its origin. Hypocrisy is a mortal disease. It had conceived a great work which it was incapable of executing, because it knew neither humility nor personal abnegation, because Rome was then invincible, and because the later Chiefs of the Order did not comprehend its mission. Moreover, the Templars were in general uneducated, and capable only of wielding the sword, with no qualifications for governing, and at need enchaining, that queen of the world called Opinion." [The doctrines of the Chiefs would, if expounded to the masses, have seemed to them the babblings of folly. The symbols of the wise are the idols of the vulgar, or else as meaningless as the hieroglyphics of Egypt to the nomadic Arabs. There must always be a common-place interpretation for the mass of Initiates, of the symbols that are eloquent to the Adepts.]

Hughes de Payens himself had not that keen and far-sighted intellect nor that grandeur of purpose which afterward distinguished the military founder of another soldiery that became formidable to kings. The Templars were unintelligent and therefore unsuccessful Jesuits.

Their watchword was, to become wealthy, in order to buy the world. They became so, and in 1312 they possessed in Europe.

So now that you can read all of their words, would you still say they were talking about the same thing?

Here is a link to an on-line version of M&D that I'm sure you (if you're not just a mouth-piece) will find of interest: http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm

Mike

[meksar]

The masons will fall sooner than they expected

[lightindarkness]

The masons will fall sooner than they expected

I believe you have to be doing something to fall don't you?

Too bad nothing to fall out of. Oh well. Maybe if you directed your hatred towards equality and liberty towards another organization?

[lightindarkness]

Humito,
If you were familiar with that book, like the first person who cobbled that almost famous (now) quote together, you too would know that Pike's words have been warped in order to support an anti-Masonic agenda.

Mike, I applaud you for presenting so much reason and evidence to debunk these random pike quotes. I am reading Morals & Dogma right now for the first time and I've noticed much of the quotes seem to be disjointed but thanks for pointing out exactly how they are doing it.

[the guy in pink]

The masons will fall sooner than they expected
This is what dear Joe has been saying for a long time now. He keeps saying it will fall within weeks or months, and has been saying that for a few years now. His lastest prediction on this very forum is " Early next year".
We wait with bated breath.......

[humito]

Humito,
If you were familiar with that book, like the first person who cobbled that almost famous (now) quote together, you too would know that Pike's words have been warped in order to support an anti-Masonic agenda.

For you benefit, I reproduce what I responded with when it was last rolled out:

What you have reproduced is not actually what Pike wrote! It is, in fact, two separate quotes from either end of an 800+ page philosophical book and unsuprisingly they were talking about different things. This is why I keep suggesting that those who insist on using Pike to shore up their theories should actually read the book themselves rather than regurgitating what they have been spoon fed by people with an agenda.

Here are the actual quotes in their original context and I have made the bits that have been extracted and fed to you bold. I think that once you have read them that even you if you are honest will be able to see that Pike was talking about different things in each part of what became the "excalibur" of quotes when it comes to "hidden higher levels" of Freemasonry.:

Page 104-05, Pike talking about how Freemasonry conceals its secrets from outsiders not Masons:


Quote:
Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled; to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it. Truth is not for those who are unworthy or unable to receive it, or would pervert it. So God Himself incapacitates many men, by color-blindness, to distinguish colors, and leads the masses away from the highest Truth, giving them the power to attain only so much of it as it is profitable to them to know. Every age has had a religion suited to its capacity.

The Teachers, even of Christianity, are, in general, the most ignorant of the true meaning of that which they teach. There is no book of which so little is known as the Bible. To most who read it, it is as incomprehensible as the Sohar.

So Masonry jealously conceals its secrets, and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray. There is no sight under the sun more pitiful and ludicrous at once, than the spectacle of the Prestons and the Webbs, not to mention the later incarnations of Dullness and Commonplace, undertaking to "explain" the old symbols of Masonry, and adding to and "improving" them, or inventing new ones.

Then on page 818 - 819, we find Pike talking about the historical Knights Templar:


Quote:
Thus the Order of Knights of the Temple was at its very origin devoted to the cause of opposition to the tiara of Rome and the crowns of Kings, and the Apostolate of Kabalistic Gnosticism was vested in its chiefs. For Saint John himself was the Father of the Gnostics, and the current translation of his polemic against the heretical of his Sect and the pagans who denied that Christ was the Word, is throughout a misrepresentation, or misunderstanding at least, of the whole Spirit of that Evangel.

"The tendencies and tenets of the Order were enveloped in profound mystery, and it externally professed the most perfect orthodoxy. The Chiefs alone knew the aim of the Order: the Subalterns followed them without distrust.

"To acquire influence and wealth, then to intrigue, and at need to fight, to establish the Johannite or Gnostic and Kabalistic dogma, were the object and means proposed to the initiated Brethren. The Papacy and the rival monarchies, they said to them, are sold and bought in these days, become corrupt, and to-morrow, perhaps, will destroy each other. All that will become the heritage of the Temple: the World will soon come to us for its Sovereigns and Pontiffs. We shall constitute the equilibrium of the Universe, and be rulers over the Masters of the World.

"The Templars, like all other Secret Orders and Associations, had two doctrines, one concealed and reserved for the Masters, which was Johannism; the other public, which was the Roman Catholic. Thus they deceived the adversaries whom they sought to supplant. Hence Free-Masonry, vulgarly imagined to have begun with the Dionysian Architects or the German Stone-workers, adopted Saint John the Evangelist as one of its patrons, associating with him, in order not to arouse the suspicions of Rome, Saint John the Baptist, and thus covertly proclaiming itself the child of the Kabalah and Essenism together."

[For the Johannism of the Adepts was the Kabalah of the earlier Gnostics, degenerating afterward into those heretical forms which Gnosticism developed, so that even Manes had his followers among them. Many adopted his doctrines of the two Principles, the recollection of which is perpetuated by the handle of the dagger and the tesserated pavement or floor of the Lodge, stupidly called "the Indented Tessel," and represented by great hanging tassels, when it really means a tesserated floor (from the Latin tessera) of white and black lozenges, with a necessarily denticulated or indented border or edging. And wherever, in the higher Degrees, the two colors white and black, are in juxtaposition, the two Principles of Zoroaster and Manes are alluded to. With others the doctrine became a mystic Pantheism, descended from that of the Brahmins, and even pushed to an idolatry of Nature and hatred of every revealed dogma.

[To all this the absurd reading of the established Church, taking literally the figurative, allegorical, and mythical language of a collection of Oriental books of different ages, directly and inevitably led. The same result long after followed the folly of regarding the Hebrew books as if they had been written by the unimaginative, hard, practical intellect of the England of James the First and the bigoted stolidity of Scottish Presbyterianism.]

"The better to succeed and win partisans, the Templars sympathized with regrets for dethroned creeds and encouraged the hopes of new worships, promising to all liberty of conscience and a new orthodoxy that should be the synthesis of all the persecuted creeds."

[It is absurd to suppose that men of intellect adored a monstrous idol called Baphomet, or recognized Mahomet as an inspired prophet. Their symbolism, invented ages before, to conceal what it was dangerous to avow, was of course misunderstood by those who were not adepts, and to their enemies seemed to be pantheistic. The calf of gold, made by Aaron for the Israelites, was but one of the oxen under the laver of bronze, and the Karobim on the Propitiatory, misunderstood. The symbols of the wise always become the idols of the ignorant multitude. What the Chiefs of the Order really believed and taught, is indicated to the Adepts by the hints contained in the high Degrees of Free-Masonry, and by the symbols which only the Adepts understand.

The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain. It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept. Masonry is the veritable Sphinx, buried to the head in the sands heaped round it by the ages.]

The seeds of decay were sown in the Order of the Temple at its origin. Hypocrisy is a mortal disease. It had conceived a great work which it was incapable of executing, because it knew neither humility nor personal abnegation, because Rome was then invincible, and because the later Chiefs of the Order did not comprehend its mission. Moreover, the Templars were in general uneducated, and capable only of wielding the sword, with no qualifications for governing, and at need enchaining, that queen of the world called Opinion." [The doctrines of the Chiefs would, if expounded to the masses, have seemed to them the babblings of folly. The symbols of the wise are the idols of the vulgar, or else as meaningless as the hieroglyphics of Egypt to the nomadic Arabs. There must always be a common-place interpretation for the mass of Initiates, of the symbols that are eloquent to the Adepts.]

Hughes de Payens himself had not that keen and far-sighted intellect nor that grandeur of purpose which afterward distinguished the military founder of another soldiery that became formidable to kings. The Templars were unintelligent and therefore unsuccessful Jesuits.

Their watchword was, to become wealthy, in order to buy the world. They became so, and in 1312 they possessed in Europe.

So now that you can read all of their words, would you still say they were talking about the same thing?

Here is a link to an on-line version of M&D that I'm sure you (if you're not just a mouth-piece) will find of interest: http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm

Mike

:D thanks surprisingly yes I have read the book.with great reason .

yes I feel the same it shows better in context what the man really was...................and what lower degree masons are............brainwashed sheep that are spoon fed ridiculous ritual.......and given half truths and itellectual mystery to be kept at a certain vibration and level of understanding ,leaving you thinking that you are becomming a better person,he admits to closly guarded secrets kept within the elite circle that are of a different agenda( one to which most masons would not even contemplate attaining never leaving the blue.).......and displays an astounding level of hatred towards the rest of undeserving humanity......at least Crowley wanted knowledge of the universal laws and energies and the truth of all religions available for all .......yes there are no real spiritual secrets left in freemasonry........most of the decent ritual of high degree has been bettered by magickal societies formed by those masons seeking real hands on wisdom and direct spiritual communion, the secret is out that the religious gnosis is revealed worldwide by the mushroom or the cacti or the vine or any other plant of the gods and that what we perceive as reality is a drop in the ocean of experience it also shows us the absurd ritual of masonry and how the energy generated can permanantly alter the masons aura and chakras ........I have attended myself whilst tripping on amanitas and saw this happen together with an energy attatchement appearing with said mason....ceremonial magic and shamanism is the best way to controll the plant conciousness and knowledge and manipulation of the universal forces................. we the profane msses have been mind controlled by masonic government and monarchy who have corrupted sacred knowledge and subverted the use of symbolism and sigils etc and kept the rest of us enslaved by perverting it for their own advantage instead of for the greater good of all......... it has become over the years corrupted beyond belief and has become a tool of the nwo and tptb to controll money/buisness/ religion/recources/food production/entertainment and events on the world stage and to take away human liberties through indoctrination of false values instilling false fears .............I dont believe there is one all encompassing conspiracy theory.......but I do know you are better off steering away from people who think that they are better than you ,that think you are one of the profane masses...........its very patronising.........thats why the masonic ptb want supression of the plant teachers..........and want you to use the drugs they supply.....
Most masons are so wrapped up in masonry that they dont realise that its inpenatrability and promise of wisdom to better the self is really just annother form of mind controll.......keeping you busy with symbolic meaning and fullfilling your egos need its very seductive......... for the most corrupting ancient knowledge or just plain fabricating it as has been exposed many times................I do not see the point of masons being on this forum and hijacking threads..........most of the people here have done their research and have come to the conclusion that for the most part and unnoticed by most 3rd degreers is the blatant truth that freemasonry and its offshoots is corrupt from the bottom to to the top and is a vehicle for deception/reality, control and crimes aganst humanity
I did my research on the inside when i wanted to learn about the masons (I had my own very good reasons) and used psychedelics help me perceive the reality...........Its very boring to talk to brainwashed robots who continue to tow the official line about masonry and come across all holier then thow and either want to condescend or abuse or are just plain evil as in lightinthedarkness who cannot wait for god to judge false christians who think masonry is evil!! LOL:D also Mike if anyone is just a mouthpeice its you,you have no opinion on anything except masonry.
Also if you really want people to be sympthetic about masonry tell us all about it and enlighten everyone dont just tell us what it isn,t. and have a bit of a sense of humor too:D

[keystone]

The masons will fall sooner than they expected

This is what dear Joe has been saying for a long time now. He keeps saying it will fall within weeks or months, and has been saying that for a few years now. His lastest prediction on this very forum is " Early next year".
We wait with bated breath.......

Meksars writing style sooo reminds me of Joe / Chas / who was the other one? that have admitted to posting under the banfreekmasons moniker that I'm tempted to beleive that this poster is from the same stable.

and Meksar is an anagram of Masker as well.

[mike martin]

:D thanks surprisingly yes I have read the book.with great reason .

yes I feel the same it shows better in context what the man really was...................and what lower degree masons are............brainwashed sheep that are spoon fed ridiculous ritual.......and given half truths and itellectual mystery to be kept at a certain vibration and level of understanding ,leaving you thinking that you are becomming a better person,he admits to closly guarded secrets kept within the elite circle that
OK?
I did my research on the inside when i wanted to learn about the masons (I had my own very good reasons) and used psychedelics help me perceive the reality...........Its very boring to talk to brainwashed robots who continue to tow the official line about masonry and come across all holier then thow and either want to condescend or abuse or are just plain evil as in lightinthedarkness who cannot wait for god to judge false christians who think masonry is evil!! LOL:D
Interesting! So you are a Mason then? What Grand Lodge were you a member of?

also Mike if anyone is just a mouthpeice its you,you have no opinion on anything except masonry.
Also if you really want people to be sympthetic about masonry tell us all about it and enlighten everyone dont just tell us what it isn,t. and have a bit of a sense of humor too:D
I'm a mouthpiece for me and I have plenty of opinion on many things other than Masonry. I don't particularly want people to be sympathetic to Masonry! My time here is just spent trying to help people see the other side of the story, otherwise they wouldn't get the chance.

Mike

[humito]

no i am an ex mason who has reversed the energy attachement of the 3 degrees ......as if iam going to reveal the ex lodge .I am not stupid.I know what happens lol.......duh I have reason to believe that I already suffer at the hands of higher degree masons for bannishing a hundered years of energies built into the lodge from all the initiation!!!!!!!!!! thats annother story.........
most of us in here realise that most masons are not bad people and believe they have found a path to truth...... I myself can attest and most truly believe that they are doing the right thing and making themselves better people and would defend masonry to the death never realising what is going on around you.......always being good little boys in the hope of being chosen for greater things..........lol
anyway this thread was supposed to be about possible hand signalling amongst the elite and famous.......its not me saying they are truly masonic/eastern star in origin..........but there are many many occult offshoots of masonry that use the ancient knowledge as a basis for their own agenda and although in the collection of pics half may be random there is definatly something going on here, i only wanted peoples opinion on it ............instead it was hijacked by masons defending masonry............................thanks for posting those fuller passages by pike..............if we are going to discuss him here , what are you 'own'or instilled attitudes or other masons thoughts on them.............how do they resonate with you from a stoic masonic stance.................coz i gotta say they dont sit easy in my kind of mind ?:D

[soulja]

the M sign is pretty much self evident..

sure you can debate about some examples shown in the pdf but overall the guy who did it was spot on.

[keystone]

the M sign is pretty much self evident..

sure you can debate about some examples shown in the pdf but overall the guy who did it was spot on.The M sign is nothing but BS and imagination. We've done this to death already - it isn't a masonic sign.

[humito]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q85hfNXe5tU&feature=related
poorly made but informative clip for those masons in denial that masonry is a religion...............there seemed to be some disagreement earlier in this thread as to whether masonry is spiritual or a religion..........masons themselves in disagreement............

[keystone]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q85hfNXe5tU&feature=related
poorly made but informative clip for those masons in denial that masonry is a religion...............there seemed to be some disagreement earlier in this thread as to whether masonry is spiritual or a religion..........masons themselves in disagreement............Yes indeed a poorly made clip which indeed shows from Albert Mackey that masonry is religious in nature, Thats what the words the author put on the page. I have never denied that nor have others. Being religious, however, does not make it a religion.

[lightindarkness]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q85hfNXe5tU&feature=related
poorly made but informative clip for those masons in denial that masonry is a religion...............there seemed to be some disagreement earlier in this thread as to whether masonry is spiritual or a religion..........masons themselves in disagreement............

America has really suffered from lack of knowledge and education.

Religious /= Religion

The pledge of allegiance is religious.
Honoring the flag of any country is religious.

ANY civil custom that any group of people observe is religious. It does not have to have any relation what so ever with a religion.

Freemasonry is religious, but not a religion. The words sound the same - which is why I suspect much hysteria has erupted over it - but they are as different in meaning as you can get.

Please educate yourself.

[humito]

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion." (MORALS AND DOGMA, p. 213)

Masonry is "...from the earliest times the custodian and depository of the great religious truths, unknown to the world at large, and handed down from age to age by an unbroken current of tradition, embodied in symbols, emblems, and allegories." (MORALS AND DOGMA, p. 210)

"...the religion of Masonry..." (MORALS AND DOGMA, p. 212)

"It is the universal, eternal, immutable religion...in the heart of universal humanity...The ministers of this religion are all Masons..." (MORALS AND DOGMA, p. 219)

"...Freemasonry is a religion..." (FREEMASONRY: ITS AIMS AND IDEALS, p. 187)


The online thefreedictionary.com defines religion as:

1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Masonry certainly falls within this definition.

As we view Freemasonry's rituals and secrets we soon learn that Freemasonry has always perceived herself as an actual distinct religion. All her teaching and much of her internal material supports such a belief.

The Royal Arch degree declares, "Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion and its teaching are instruction in religion."

The Grand Elect, Perfect and Sublime Mason degree says, "It is the universal, eternal, immutable religion."

The Prince Adept degree declares, "Masonry propogates no creed except its own most simple and sublime one; that universal religion taught by nature and reason."

Most of Freemasonry's most able public exponents makes great emphasis upon such a fact. Freemasonry's rituals confirm this by their religious nature and their religious teaching.

High-ranking Mason George H. Steinmetz writes in his book Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning, "The order has at all times been careful to explain that Masonry is not a religion. It has denied the fact over and over again, and insisted that it was a lodge or brotherhood, and in no way did, nor was it intended to, take the place of the church in a man’s life. It is claimed that Masonry is universal, its tenets such that they can be subscribed to by Christian, Jew, Mohammedan and Buddhist alike, and all may meet in brotherhood at its altars. Has Masonry been too careful in its explanation? Too vehement in its denials? Has it so loudly proclaimed it is not a religion that its followers have been misled into thinking it is not religious? Has it been fearful of inadvertently stepping on the figurative toes of some creed, mistaking a creed for religion?"

He continues, "What is religion? The dictionary defines it as: The recognition of man’s relation to a divine superhuman power to whom obedience and reverence are due; the outward acts and practices of life by which men indicate their recognition of such relationship; conformity to the teaching of the Bible, effort of man to attain goodness of God.” … In Morals and Dogma Pike offers the following definition: “FREEMASONRY is the subjugation of the human that is in man by the Divine; the Conquest of the Appetites and Passions by the Moral Sense and the Reason; a continual effort, struggle, and warfare of the Spiritual against the Material and Sensual. That victory, when it has been achieved and secured, and the conqueror may rest upon his shield and wear the well-earned laurels, is the true holy empire.”

He exhorts Masons, "The time has arrived for Masonry to make its position clear, to not only admit, but rather to declare, that it is religious, even though it may well explain it is not a religion in the commonly accepted misuse of the word “religion.” An attitude to the contrary may have been excusable in the past, as the vast majority of Masons, ignorant of the esoteric teachings, were equally ignorant of the fact that those teachings constitute religion. This has never been true of the Great Masonic Scholars of the past, all of whose writings show their recognition of the religion of Masonry. What is religion? “Religion is the recognition of man’s relation to a divine superhuman power to whom obedience and reverence are due.” The Masonic Manuel states, “Freemasonry’s religion, if religion it may be called, is an unfeigned belief in the one living and true God.” The definition of religion continues, “The outward acts and practices of life by which men indicate their recognition of such relationship.” Paralleling this the Masonic Manuel continues, “[Freemasonry’s] tenets are brotherly love, relief and truth.” How more can one’s “outward acts and practices” indicate recognition of the Supreme Architect of the Universe and the relationship to Him, than by brotherly love, relief and truth? Recognition of Him of all necessitates the recognition of every fellow man as a brother, demanding brotherly love, which encompasses relief when needed, and above all else, truth."

Mr Steinmetz accurately expounds the true heart-beat of Freemasonry. His exhortation is built upon fact. Masonry is indeed a religion with its own type of teaching. It is an oral tradition and its teaching is esoteric – that is – it is concealed from the masses by a veil of blood oaths, handshakes and passwords. In this it is unique top organised religion. In this it is an anathema to true Christianity.

Dr Mayer - a leading 19th Century Freemason - proudly stated in 1873, "this great art [Freemasonry] may rightly be called a religion. It defines the relation of the individual man to his Creator, to his fellow men, to himself; it develops man into perfection. Freemasonry is a faithful guide through life, with proper instructions to square our actions, and straight measures to keep us in due bounds with mankind. It teaches truth, recommends peace, and directs our attention to the very perishableness of all things. Is it not a religion? Religion! No, my brethren, we may rather call it THE religion! It is entitled to this sublime distinction, through its aim to make man's life happy and godly and his death enviable and peaceful. It is certainly the true religion of mankind, its truth being obvious by its suitableness for all men, its applicableness to all ages, its unchangeableness under all circumstances, its harmonious working in all zones, and the privilege it grants to every man to entertain his own view of his Creator." He continued, "Who is so blind and fanatical as to anathematise Freemasonry on so-called religious grounds? The religion of Freemasonry is within the reach of the Jew and Gentile, the Mohometan and the Hindu, the white and the black, the master and servant, the free and the captive, the rich and the poor - it is the religion of mankind, it is universal. A good Mason loves religion as a pleasant and useful companion in every proper place and every temperate occupation of life; but he hates religions as edifices constructed on prejudicial and superstitious traditions, fanatical propensities and clerical overbearing."

There is little doubt that Freemasonry is a religion - only the ignorant and/or the deceived would deny such a claim. Freemasonry's rituals and secrets confirm this in an undeniable manner. Some Freemasons argue 'we are not a religion but a body of religious men' or 'we are not a secret society but a society with secrets.' However, Freemasonry has all the component parts of any religion.

• They have their own god or hero.
• They have their own beliefs and practices.
• They present an alternative plan of salvation.
• They claim to take their initiates from darkness into spiritual light.
• In some of the higher degrees they serve communion and baptise their initiates.
• They have their own distinct places of worship (Temples).
• They have their own Christless prayers and hymns.
• They have their own religious offices which are alien to the Christian Church and contrary to the teaching of Scripture.

Sir John Cockburn addresses the matter in 'Freemasonry: What, Whence, Why, Whither' where he writes, "The question whether Masonry is a religion has been keenly debated. But the contest appears to be merely a war of words. Perhaps the best way of arriving at a conclusion would be first of all to enumerate the points which are common to most religions, and then to enquire in what respect Masonry differs from them. Religion deals with the relationship between man as his Maker, and instils a reverence for the Creator as the First Cause. Religions abound in observances of worship by prayer and praise. They inculcate rules of conduct by holding up a god or hero as a pattern for imitation. All true religions denounce selfishness, extol mutual; service if necessary self-sacrifice. It would be difficult to say in which of these characteristics that Freemasonry is lacking. Surely it abounds in all. Its ceremonies are elaborate, and are unsurpassed in beauty and depth of meaning. They are interspersed with prayer and thanksgiving. In no religion is the reverential attitude of the creature to the Creator more clearly displayed. A bright example of devotion to duty and of self-sacrifice in the path of fidelity. Is ever held before the eyes of the brethren. In what religion are the principles to be found nobler than those on which Masonry rests? Love to the brethren, relief to the distressed, and reverence to the God of Truth. If the title religion be denied to Freemasonry, it may well claim the higher ground of being a federation of religions. It is a form of worship in which all religions can unite without sacrificing a lot of their respective creeds."

Albert Pike declares in Morals and Dogma, "Every Masonic lodge is a temple of religion, and its teaching are instructions in religion…this is true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time endures." Albert Mackey says in the 'Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry,' "The religion of Masonry is non-sectarian. It admits men of every creed within its hospitable bosom. It is not Judaism, though there is nothing to offend the Jew. It is not Christianity, but there is nothing in it repugnant to the faith of a Christian.

J.S.M. Ward says in 'Freemasonry: its aims and ideals', "I consider Freemasonry is a significantly organized school of mysticism to be entitled to be called a religion…Freemasonry …taught that each man can by himself, work out his own conception of god and thereby achieve salvation…that thought these paths appear to branch off in various directions, yet they all reach the same ultimate goal, and that to some men, one path is better and to other, another."

Albert Mackey argues, "Look at its ancient landmarks, its sublime ceremonies, its profound symbols and allegories - all inculcating religious doctrine, commanding religious observances, and teaching religious truth, and who can deny that it is eminently a religious institution...? Masonry then, is indeed a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should then religious Mason defend it."

Frank C.Higgins maintains: “It is true that Freemasonry is the parent of all religions” (Ancient Freemsonry p. 10)

33rd Degree Freemason Norman Vincent Peale, says: “I consider Masonry to be the purest form of religion on earth” (Masonic Monitor, May 1992 pg.17).

Freemasonry is a syncretistic religion in that it believes that irrespective of whatever belief one holds 'all roads lead to the one God.'
satanism icluded............

[lightindarkness]

Just FYI: No amount of copying and pasting is going to change the reality that freemasonry is not a religion, never has been a religion, and never will be a religion. You should stop stealing the work of others. It may be lies and NWO disinformation, but its still someone elses work:
http://www.nireland.com/evangelicaltruth/fmar.html

How gullible can you be to get all your disinformation from radical, wacko evangelical sources who claim EVERYTHING is a religion, by the way? Please educate yourself and learn how to do real research.

Now, on to debunk this non-sense:

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion." (MORALS AND DOGMA, p. 213)

Wrong - Mike Martin has in other threads where you guys continually copy and paste this stuff debunked this. Albert Pike said at the beginning of his own book that his words were his own and were not meant to speak for all of freemasonry.

Also, Dr. S. Brent Morris, who if you want to believe in the lies of ranks = authority, is higher than Pike because he has the Grand Cross honor, has specifically said "Freemasonry is not a religion in any shape or from."


The online thefreedictionary.com defines religion as:

Using the dictionary for definitions of complex worlds is simply ignorant. Look up the word "short" in the dictionary - the dictionary says it means something small in stature. However, when I use the word short in finance it means something completely different (placing a bet in the market that a stock will go down).

The real, accepted, academic definition of religion is "a systematic set of beliefs that seeks to answer existential questions about the human condition." It is the only accepted real definition for religion, and freemasonry does not fit that definition. It does not seek to answer any existential question about the human condition.


As we view Freemasonry's rituals and secrets we soon learn that Freemasonry has always perceived herself as an actual distinct religion. All her teaching and much of her internal material supports such a belief.

Actually, we find quite the opposite - freemasonry teaches its members that they are to be good members of their own religion and church. Please tell me one single religion that does that. Just one.


High-ranking Mason George H. Steinmetz writes in his book Freemasonry: Its Hidden Meaning, "The order has at all times been careful to explain that Masonry is not a religion. It has denied the fact over and over again, and insisted that it was a lodge or brotherhood, and in no way did, nor was it intended to, take the place of the church in a man’s life. It is claimed that Masonry is universal, its tenets such that they can be subscribed to by Christian, Jew, Mohammedan and Buddhist alike, and all may meet in brotherhood at its altars. Has Masonry been too careful in its explanation? Too vehement in its denials? Has it so loudly proclaimed it is not a religion that its followers have been misled into thinking it is not religious? Has it been fearful of inadvertently stepping on the figurative toes of some creed, mistaking a creed for religion?"

Whoops - to bad there is no such thing as a high ranking mason. Try again.


• They have their own god or hero.
• They present an alternative plan of salvation.
• They claim to take their initiates from darkness into spiritual light.
• In some of the higher degrees they serve communion and baptise their initiates.
• They have their own distinct places of worship (Temples).
• They have their own religious offices which are alien to the Christian Church and contrary to the teaching of Scripture.

Not one of these things is true. Not even one.

No amount of spreading lies is going to change reality. You can't turn something into a religion when it is not. You may desperately, hopelessly want it to be, you may yearn for it with every fiber of your delusions, but its simply not reality.

[boots]

Now, on to debunk this non-sense:


Using the dictionary for definitions of complex worlds is simply ignorant. Look up the word "short" in the dictionary - the dictionary says it means something small in stature. However, when I use the word short in finance it means something completely different (placing a bet in the market that a stock will go down).


LOL Using the dictionary for the meaning of words is ignorant.

FYI short selling means just that:rolleyes: stocks are keep for long periods to gain dividends on them. You loose again.




No amount of spreading lies is going to change reality.

That's right mason but you keep trying to spread lies.


.

[boots]

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion." (MORALS AND DOGMA, p. 213)

..

Good post.

All though the masons will try and deny it because they have been exposed by one of their own.


.

[humito]

well if you are told to be good little boys in whatever religion you are then it just shows how you j blindly you do what you are told and your incapability or desire to think for yourself.
Again why is it that you are so sure that the information you are spoon fed as the official line is truth..??
Why is using a dictionary ignorant ? lol
"Wrong - Mike Martin has in other threads where you guys continually copy and paste this stuff debunked this. Albert Pike said at the beginning of his own book that his words were his own and were not meant to speak for all of freemasonry. " mike martin talks out of his arse lol..........why write a book about masonry that does not apply to it? a book just for yourself to read ...........a bit odd..lol

"lso, Dr. S. Brent Morris, who if you want to believe in the lies of ranks = authority, is higher than Pike because he has the Grand Cross honor, has specifically said "Freemasonry is not a religion in any shape or from."".......................
he is higher than pike in authority" but ranks dont exist ??? explain lol


"Actually, we find quite the opposite - freemasonry teaches its members that they are to be good members of their own religion and church. Please tell me one single religion that does that. Just one. "
eh ..all of them imply that they are the one true path and that you should not deviate .........except perhaps buddhism which could be argued is not a religion either.......Also while we are on the subject ..........if you are told to be good followers of your religion....then why in a previous post do you want hate filled retribution from your god to punish those 'other christians' and persecutors of masonry.......I thought the christian god taught forgivness and masons and christians alike teach brotherly love...........you contradict yourself....



"No amount of spreading lies is going to change reality. You can't turn something into a religion when it is not. You may desperately, hopelessly want it to be, you may yearn for it with every fiber of your delusions, but its simply not reality".................................................. ........... lol calm down mate ............im not desperate about any thing thankyou.......... you can argue all day about semantics.........and twist anyones words to fit your own ideas and understanding..........I am an ex mason mate you cannot teach me a thing I have first hand knowledge of exactly what goes on thanks ............I know that you all have been seriously mislead......you cannot see it and that what it was designed to do...........
All you masons actually do on this forum is repeat the bollox you are indoctrinated with...........and refuse to see the bigger picture...........this is because the blue degrees are designed to keep your energies at a certain level...............
at the end of the day i couldnt give a toss wether you think its an official religion or not basically the truth of the matter is anyonewithout a high degree has been completely lied to..........you are told that you can use your holy book of choice .blah blah. and masonry is not a religion.................and this is true for the most part IN TH LOWER DEGREES!!!!!............its not untill you are suitable to go higher or into the myriad offshoots that it is revealed what god actually is,the truth of the universal laws and the abscence of any right or wrong..........after this realisation........you are definatley practicing a different religion.........and worshiping a different kind of god..........one that is supremely different to any thing the worlds religions have come up with...........i am sorry mate but the level of understanding you have at present...........is stopping you from being able to comprehend the true agenda
Exactly where they would prefer you to be...........trapped in ya left brain ...........the caterpiller cannot understand the butterfly.........

[lightindarkness]

LOL Using the dictionary for the meaning of words is ignorant.

FYI short selling means just that:rolleyes: stocks are keep for long periods to gain dividends on them. You loose again.






That's right mason but you keep trying to spread lies.


.

LOL thanks for showing how clueless you are. You lose, fascist.

Look up "short" as its used in the financial markets. Look up the definition of short.

SURPRISE! Dictionary doesn't cover it. Because the dictionary is meant for commonplace easy to understand definitions, and does not cover complex concepts. Using the dictionary to try to explain religion is as ignorant as using it to explain any other complex concept - its a complete failure.

[lightindarkness]

well if you are told to be good little boys in whatever religion you are then it just shows how you j blindly you do what you are told and your incapability or desire to think for yourself.

You fail.

Again.

Let's review. Somehow freemasonry is a religion, yet in its rituals (not that you've ever read them, that much is obvious) it tells its candidates that they are to be good members of their own religions and that freemasonry does not take the place of their own personal religion. You cannot point to me to one actual religion that does this, and yet you expect me to believe that freemasonry is a religion while telling candidates expressly that they are to follow their own religion and that freemasonry cannot fulfill that role?


Again why is it that you are so sure that the information you are spoon fed as the official line is truth..??

You blindly believe everything you find on radical conspiracy theory and religious zealot websites is true, and you have the audacity to ask this question?

The only authoritative source on freemasonry is the ritual. That's it. No author, no philosopher, no mason, no administrative body is authoritative on freemasonry. The only authoritative ritual is the ritual itself, and only the ritual. I have the ritual. You have the ritual. I see it every two weeks. You could easily read the ritual and see the same things I already know - that the ritual expressly states freemasonry is not a religion and all freemasons should be good members of whatever religion they choose to follow.


Why is using a dictionary ignorant ? lol

Stop spreading propaganda for a minute and read what I said again. Trying to use the dictionary is a incredibly stupid way of defining complex concepts. There are at least 5 or 10 different types of dictionaries also, how nice of you to find the very definition that fits with the propaganda you are trying to spread.
mike martin talks out of his arse lol..........why write a book about masonry that does not apply to it? a book just for yourself to read ...........a bit odd..lol

In other words, you have read the truth but refuse to see it. Another testament that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Anyone can write a book on freemasonry. Hundreds of books have been written by 33rd degree masons (not that the number matters, I'm playing along with the myth on that for the moment) who expressly disagree with Pike, Hall, and the other people anti-masons love to quote out of context. You ignore them because they do not fit with what you want to believe.


he is higher than pike in authority" but ranks dont exist ??? explain lol

You have expressed that you believe in the lies and propaganda you read which states that degrees convey some sort of power or authority. They do not, but obviously you are not interested in the facts. So, if we were to believe this lie then the Grand Cross of Honor, which is a rare Supreme Council honor, would outrank 33rd degrees. Dr. Morris has that honor, and he expressly states freemasonry is not a religion. By your own twisted logic, freemasonry therefore cannot be a religion.


eh ..all of them imply that they are the one true path and that you should not deviate .........except perhaps buddhism which could be argued is not a religion either.......Also while we are on the subject ..........if you are told to be good followers of your religion....then why in a previous post do you want hate filled retribution from your god to punish those 'other christians' and persecutors of masonry.......I thought the christian god taught forgivness and masons and christians alike teach brotherly love...........you contradict yourself....

Thank you for proving yet again that freemasonry is not a religion. Freemasonry never thinks it is the one true path - or that it even has a path.

I am glad you are so obsessed with my own religion that you have proved that I am a Christian and that freemasonry is not a religion. I have expressed that those who spend so much time hating and persecuting Freemasons will be judged by God for their unrighteous actions, and so they will. I am not judging, you are attempting to twist yet again words that you want to believe instead of what I actually said.


lol calm down mate ............im not desperate about any thing thankyou.......... you can argue all day about semantics.........and twist anyones words to fit your own ideas and understanding..........I am an ex mason mate you cannot teach me a thing I have first hand knowledge of exactly what goes on thanks ............I know that you all have been seriously mislead......you cannot see it and that what it was designed to do...........

You are quite desperate. You resemble a cockroach desperately trying to get into someone's home, looking for any and every crack and gleefully get in and spread your fifth. Unfortunately for you, the cracks you are searching for don't exist on freemasonry. The fraternity has its own problems, but its not where as dramatic or grandiose as you would like to believe.

If I had $1 for every anti-mason who claimed (1) there family was a "33rd degree mason", (2) they were invited, or (3) they were ex-masons, I would be a trillionaire. Please state your lodge number and Grand Lodge if you claim to be a ex-mason. Otherwise, stop spreading lies.


All you masons actually do on this forum is repeat the bollox you are indoctrinated with...........and refuse to see the bigger picture...........this is because the blue degrees are designed to keep your energies at a certain level...............

There you go once again showing you have no knowledge of freemasonry. The blue degrees are freemasonry. There are no higher degrees.


at the end of the day i couldnt give a toss wether you think its an official religion or not basically the truth of the matter is anyonewithout a high degree has been completely lied to..........you are told that you can use your holy book of choice .blah blah. and masonry is not a religion.................and this is true for the most part IN TH LOWER DEGREES!!!!!............its not untill you are suitable to go higher or into the myriad offshoots that it is revealed what god actually is,the truth of the universal laws and the abscence of any right or wrong..........after this realisation........you are definatley practicing a different religion.........and worshiping a different kind of god..........one that is supremely different to any thing the worlds religions have come up with...........i am sorry mate but the level of understanding you have at present...........is stopping you from being able to comprehend the true agenda
Exactly where they would prefer you to be...........trapped in ya left brain ...........the caterpiller cannot understand the butterfly.........

I think you win the prize for "completely pointless random anti-mason rant" of the year. The problem with your rant is that there is no such thing as a "high degree" - its a myth you've bought into. There are no high degrees, no low degrees. That is the point of the fraternity. No amount of lying and spreading disinformation is going to change that.

I am always fascinated that people who show they are clueless about freemasonry somehow know the "true agenda" that none of its members ever know about. I am a 32nd degree mason, which is the same as a 3rd degree mason. There is no "true agenda" except to make good men better. I am sorry that you hate liberty and freedom.

[boots]

LOL thanks for showing how clueless you are. You lose, fascist.

Now Now dont be a condescending little boy with the limited knowledge that you have. It's starting to show. lol

Look up "short" as its used in the financial markets. Look up the definition of short.

I have and it explains it quite well in Blacks Law dictionary.

SURPRISE! Dictionary doesn't cover it. Because the dictionary is meant for commonplace easy to understand definitions, and does not cover complex concepts. Using the dictionary to try to explain religion is as ignorant as using it to explain any other complex concept - its a complete failure.

SURPRISE DOPEY religion is completely covered in the dictionary as humito has pointed out pertaining to what he has posted about Freemasons ideology of a world view RELIGION.

My Encyclopedic World Dictionary has a very good description, of region and it fits so well to freemasons religion.

You won't be long for "this" world, with your pathetic attitude.

.

[stewart edwards]

LightinDarkness

What I am about to say may drive you mad and infuriate you, I hope that it doesnt as I am trying to help you understand why some get frustrated with you and dont believe you. So please take a deep breath, lsiten, reflect, and then come back at me if you feel the need to.


Good post, but there is one issue that, for balance and accuracy, I think that you should address. That of there being no higher degrees.

I am aware that in UGLE-amity this is not the case (though bear in mind what GrandSecretary posted about the reality of decision making over the theory in UGLE/Supreme Council England). But in some fraternities of the continental flavour you will find that they see there being a continuation between 1 and 33, with Maosns wearing their regalia in Craft lodge of whatever degree they are. In some jurisdictions I am told, by your brothers in them, that those of the 30th degree and above dont wear aprons (as they have mastered themselves so well they no longer need them [I recognise that depending on your fraternity such esoteric explanations may be alien to you]).

Now all of the above has been told to me, and in some cases published on forums, by Masons. So I think that you really should:-

1. Recognise that not all flavours of Freemasonry work the way yours does (unless you want to argue that your Freemasonry is the only real Freemasonry).

2. Consider that if Freemason "A" says one thing, and Freemason "B" says another, then you have to forgive Joe Public for thinking that you are lying, or lost, or dont know what is going on in your own back yard so to speak. It is an issue of credibility. A bit like when one mason says that women cant be Freemaons, yet you have both female and mixed masonic fraternities and lodges out there, sometimes sharing UGLE facilities.


Those with concerns about Freemaosonry need to control their emotions and get to the facts and not work so much on heresay, but equally Masons need to stop contradicting each other so often as it just looses them trust and credibility. "Well in my Fraternity this is how things are" would work much better than "That is nonsense Freemasonry doesnt work that way".

Just some thoughts to help move things forwards.

[lightindarkness]

Now Now dont be a condescending little boy with the limited knowledge that you have. It's starting to show. lol



I have and it explains it quite well in Blacks Law dictionary.



SURPRISE DOPEY religion is completely covered in the dictionary as humito has pointed out pertaining to what he has posted about Freemasons ideology of a world view RELIGION.

My Encyclopedic World Dictionary has a very good description, of region and it fits so well to freemasons religion.

You won't be long for "this" world, with your pathetic attitude.

.

Thanks for playing but no, you fail again.

The dictionary is not meant to convey complex concepts, never was. Religion is a complex concept. There are innumerable versions of dictionaries that all have different definitions. In any case, freemasonry is not a religion and never has been. Any dictionary definition that would fit it would have to cast the net so wide that every social institution - schools, patriotism, etc. would be a religion.

I'll be here for quite a while, and no amount of your rantings or lies is going to change that, which I know upsets you :) You would prefer if everyone who brings truth and reason to your disinformation would just die, eh? Thats SO anti-masonic of you :)

[lightindarkness]

LightinDarkness

What I am about to say may drive you mad and infuriate you, I hope that it doesnt as I am trying to help you understand why some get frustrated with you and dont believe you. So please take a deep breath, lsiten, reflect, and then come back at me if you feel the need to.

Sorry I'm not here to get you or anyone else to believe me. Its characteristic of anti-masons to become enraged and angered anytime facts or reason are presented to them. Its a rational response - its what happens when you believe in lies.


I am aware that in UGLE-amity this is not the case (though bear in mind what GrandSecretary posted about the reality of decision making over the theory in UGLE/Supreme Council England). But in some fraternities of the continental flavour you will find that they see there being a continuation between 1 and 33, with Maosns wearing their regalia in Craft lodge of whatever degree they are. In some jurisdictions I am told, by your brothers in them, that those of the 30th degree and above dont wear aprons (as they have mastered themselves so well they no longer need them [I recognise that depending on your fraternity such esoteric explanations may be alien to you]).

GrandSecretary is nothing more than a anti-mason to me, someone who has a clear agenda and is seeking to spread disinformation about the UGLE so that people will join his little group.

There is no regular lodge of freemasonry where people wear "higher degree" regalia because there is no higher degree. Officers have different regalia that they no longer use once they move on from that office. The obsession with the 1-33 in regular freemasonry is a mythological one - it only exists in the minds of people who cannot conceive of complex systems. It completely ignored MAJOR rites like the York Rite because it doesn't have sexy high numbers, even though a Knight Templar has as much power as a 33rd degree Scottish Rite mason, and both have as much power as a 3rd degree mason.

There are no customs like you describe in regular freemasonry. Irregular and clandestine freemasonry can do whatever it likes, and those customs may exist in unrecognized branches, but as they are unrecognized they can do whatever they want.


Now all of the above has been told to me, and in some cases published on forums, by Masons. So I think that you really should:-

Right, because if its on a forum..it must be true.


1. Recognise that not all flavours of Freemasonry work the way yours does (unless you want to argue that your Freemasonry is the only real Freemasonry).

Regular freemasonry is the only one I recognize.


2. Consider that if Freemason "A" says one thing, and Freemason "B" says another, then you have to forgive Joe Public for thinking that you are lying, or lost, or dont know what is going on in your own back yard so to speak. It is an issue of credibility. A bit like when one mason says that women cant be Freemaons, yet you have both female and mixed masonic fraternities and lodges out there, sometimes sharing UGLE facilities.

Joe Public can use google to quickly find out the 1-33 myth is not real, it takes 5 minutes of research.


Those with concerns about Freemaosonry need to control their emotions and get to the facts and not work so much on heresay, but equally Masons need to stop contradicting each other so often as it just looses them trust and credibility. "Well in my Fraternity this is how things are" would work much better than "That is nonsense Freemasonry doesnt work that way".

Just some thoughts to help move things forwards.

That masons contradict each other is just more proof that its not as centralized or as powerful as people would like to delude themselves into thinking. In reality there isn't any contradiction among regular masons - anyone can call themselves masons though, and if you would like to think of them as masons then that would be why you get confused. I have no problem with people calling themselves freemasons...people are free to do whatever they want. But there is 1 regular freemasonry, and it is the only freemasonry I concern myself with. If people choose to make up their own groups and create ranks more in line with anti-masonic myth, thats up to them.

[localidiot]

I know that it seems folks are very good at pulling the quotes from websites, some of those quotes are cut short, though.
Which makes me want to ask how many of you people have read the books you are quoting from?
Not necassarily from start to finish, but at least the chapter dealing with the quotes, at least.
The reason I bring that up is, there was a fellow (not a Mason) who'd been invited to give a guest speaking about the Bible, at a more or less fundementalist religouse meeting. He went on to show how he could pull quotes from the Bible to show Jesus was a scratch golfer.
I read it on the internet somewhere, I'm afraid that the actual fellow and his story is somewhat lost to me at this point.

However, it seems that the number of people who work on Masonry, some as a study for, and others as a study against, require that anyone who seeks to make a base statement of the organization at least study the matierial they are pulling quotes from.

On a side note, it seems my spell checker doesn't work here, if I horribly mangled any words, let met me know so I'll watch for it later on.

[boots]

Thanks for playing but no, you fail again.

The dictionary is not meant to convey complex concepts, never was. Religion is a complex concept. There are innumerable versions of dictionaries that all have different definitions. In any case, freemasonry is not a religion and never has been. Any dictionary definition that would fit it would have to cast the net so wide that every social institution - schools, patriotism, etc. would be a religion.

I'll be here for quite a while, and no amount of your rantings or lies is going to change that, which I know upsets you :) You would prefer if everyone who brings truth and reason to your disinformation would just die, eh? Thats SO anti-masonic of you :)

You have a very infantile attitude Did you always lose at playing games or always fail at school? something not quite right in the head. It is becoming apparent that you have psychological problems.

The definitions of the word religion is not complex it maybe for you, who will use the statements you make as a way of deflecting from the fact that freemasons have a religious ideology and therefore by the structure of rituals and the belief in a Grand Architect/God, a religion.

BTW 95% of your postings are rants from a closed mind something which Icke has been banging on about for quite a few years. You only operate from your reptilian mind.

Death is an illusion anyway and disinformation is what the world has been operating in thanks to the control of the media. It's quite obvious this is what you follow...disinformation.


.

[stewart edwards]

Regular freemasonry is the only one I recognize.Regular to whom exactly?

[humito]

Sorry I'm not here to get you or anyone else to believe me. Its characteristic of anti-masons to become enraged and angered anytime facts or reason are presented to them. Its a rational response - its what happens when you believe in lies.



GrandSecretary is nothing more than a anti-mason to me, someone who has a clear agenda and is seeking to spread disinformation about the UGLE so that people will join his little group.

There is no regular lodge of freemasonry where people wear "higher degree" regalia because there is no higher degree. Officers have different regalia that they no longer use once they move on from that office. The obsession with the 1-33 in regular freemasonry is a mythological one - it only exists in the minds of people who cannot conceive of complex systems. It completely ignored MAJOR rites like the York Rite because it doesn't have sexy high numbers, even though a Knight Templar has as much power as a 33rd degree Scottish Rite mason, and both have as much power as a 3rd degree mason.

There are no customs like you describe in regular freemasonry. Irregular and clandestine freemasonry can do whatever it likes, and those customs may exist in unrecognized branches, but as they are unrecognized they can do whatever they want.



Right, because if its on a forum..it must be true.



Regular freemasonry is the only one I recognize.



Joe Public can use google to quickly find out the 1-33 myth is not real, it takes 5 minutes of research.



That masons contradict each other is just more proof that its not as centralized or as powerful as people would like to delude themselves into thinking. In reality there isn't any contradiction among regular masons - anyone can call themselves masons though, and if you would like to think of them as masons then that would be why you get confused. I have no problem with people calling themselves freemasons...people are free to do whatever they want. But there is 1 regular freemasonry, and it is the only freemasonry I concern myself with. If people choose to make up their own groups and create ranks more in line with anti-masonic myth, thats up to them......................................You really have no clue do you?
your 'regular' masonry and the 3 degrees......all that is is a working mans club
and a way of arresting any further spiritual progression........... it is nothing more than say what the boys brigade is in comparison with the S.A.S........................ when it comes to freemasonry........you deny any rituals or customs,deny it has anything to do with spirituality or religion deny that it is heirarichal.........in fact all the contradiction comes from the fact that you are sworn to secrecy so you all lie to protect each other and the brotherhood...... and lies are inconsistant with truth.......... ,I know this I used to be one........I was the same untill i had the realisation of what was really happening........everything in freemasonry has a double meaning....................what is really happenning energetically when rituals are performed is the exact opposite of what the mason understands it to mean..........gradually you are being prepared for the introduction of the
the enlightenment about the 'luciferic' energy. and the true nature of the universal forces ........in your 3 degrees you have false information to base your spirituality on and cannot possibly comprehend the hidden meanings of the symbols you are given or any higher degrees or offshoot lodges etc.....
I know that you really do honestly believe you are right etc...........believe me its not the case......you will see .

[stewart edwards]

what is really happenning energetically when rituals are performed is the exact opposite of what the mason understands it to mean..........gradually you are being prepared for the introduction of the
the enlightenment about the 'luciferic' energy.I think that you will find that some lodges are social clubs where there is little understanding nor intent of/in the ritual work, even if it is word perfect in a literal sense. Apologies if my perception here is innaccurate.

Of course Freemasonry gradually prepares you to become enlightened. I wonder what any Freemason who hears about smoothing his ashlar form rough to smooth means, or what it really means for a WM to pass the light to an initiate, or for PMs to lilluminate the way for those who follow?

The question is, is that light a good light or darkness pretending to be light?

The answer lies in the actions of Freemasons as they take what they learn in lodge and apply it to their daily life. If they take the theory, the striving for truth, the tolerance, the helpfulness, etc, then that is a fairly good sign that they are indeed in a lodge of light. But if they dont take it with them, treat it as mummery so to speak, let their egos rule, then that is a clear sign of darker forces at play.

Anyone can use the term light, or truth for that matter. Both Freemasons and many here do. Which means that you are either closer than you think or are seeking different things. The harsh reality humito is that Freemasonry is a wonderful concept, a concept that in my opinion has become corrupted. It is a pity that no one seems to have the b@@@s to grasp the mettle and sort it out. There are plenty who talk the talk, but few seem to walk the walk. And for those who do walking away seems all to often to be the most viable option. (Earlier this year I walked away from an organisation that I lost faith in so I do understand).

If you really are an ex-Freemason dont give up on it humito. Use your energies to make it what it should be again. Following Masonic principles is a good way to do this and lead by positive example.

Remember where you first prepared yourself. No matter how corrupted the Masons may have been that surrounded you, never forget.

Just my personal opinions. Apologies to all freemasons who work hard to ensure that Freemasonry is everything that it can be.

[grandsecretary]

Regular freemasonry is the only one I recognize.

This statement obliges you to define "Regular" Freemasonry.

[localidiot]

If Lightindarkness is part of the mainstream lodge, regularity would mean being recognized by the Grand Lodge of England, which requires the following:
From Wikipedia:
* Regularity of origin is established by a duly recognised Grand Lodge or three or more regularly constituted Lodges.
* A belief in the Great Architect of the Universe and his revealed will shall be an essential qualification for membership.
* That all Initiates shall take their Obligation on or in full view of the open Volume of the Sacred Law, by which is meant the revelation from above which is binding on the conscience of the particular individual who is being initiated.
* That the membership of the Grand Lodge and individual Lodges shall be composed entirely of men; and that each Grand Lodge shall have no Masonic intercourse of any kind with mixed Lodges or bodies which admit women to membership.
* That the Grand Lodge shall have sovereign jurisdiction over Lodges under its control, i.e. that it shall be a responsible, independent, self-governing organisation, with sole and undisputed authority over the Craft or Symbolic degrees (Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft and Master Mason) within its Jurisdiction; and shall not in any way be subject to, or divide such authority with, a Supreme Council or any other power claiming any control or supervision over those degrees.
* That the three Great Lights of Freemasonry (namely, the Volume of the Sacred Law, the Square, and the Compasses) shall always be exhibited when the Grand Lodge or its subordinate Lodges are at work, the chief of these being the Volume of the Sacred Law.
* That the discussion of religion and politics within the Lodge shall be strictly prohibited.
* That the principles of the Antient Landmarks, customs and usages of the Craft be strictly observed.[6]

Regular Masonic Juridictions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_Masonic_jurisdictions[/url)

Of course, there are a large number of different Masonic organisations, and they each regard themselves as regular, though the regularity f the other groups seems to very person to person, if my understanding is correct.

LightinDarkness seems to be one of the members who regards only the original organization as regular, and obviously there are representatives of different groups here, and different views on the issue.

[grandsecretary]

If Lightindarkness is part of the mainstream lodge, regularity would mean being recognized by the Grand Lodge of England, which requires the following:

Regular Masonic Juridictions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_Masonic_jurisdictions[/url)

Of course, there are a large number of different Masonic organisations, and they each regard themselves as regular, though the regularity f the other groups seems to very person to person, if my understanding is correct.

LightinDarkness seems to be one of the members who regards only the original organization as regular, and obviously there are representatives of different groups here, and different views on the issue.

The UGLE was formed in 1813.

[keystone]

..I would also add that the true meaning of masonry/signals/agenda etc is not revealed to anyone below the 33rd degree.............

........in your 3 degrees you have false information to base your spirituality on and cannot possibly comprehend the hidden meanings of the symbols you are given or any higher degrees or offshoot lodges etc.....
I know that you really do honestly believe you are right etc...........believe me its not the case......you will see .

When taken together these two quotes imply that you are / were a member of the 33rd degree. Is that the case?

I know that you really do honestly believe you are right etc...........believe me its not the case......you will see .Are you here to to enlighten or to windup?

[mike martin]

no i am an ex mason who has reversed the energy attachement of the 3 degrees ......as if iam going to reveal the ex lodge .I am not stupid.I know what happens lol.......
Hmmm. So what would happen if you reveal your ex-Lodge??

I'm interested really. Did you leave in good standing?

most of us in here realise that most masons are not bad people and believe they have found a path to truth...... I myself can attest and most truly believe that they are doing the right thing and making themselves better people and would defend masonry to the death never realising what is going on around you.......always being good little boys in the hope of being chosen for greater things..........lol
This is a bit twisted as you've said your going to defend Masonry!

anyway this thread was supposed to be about possible hand signalling amongst the elite and famous.......its not me saying they are truly masonic/eastern star in origin
Well by your own words you are an ex Mason, so are perfectly placed to confirm or deny whether the alleged "M" sign is Masonic and as an ex-Mason the non-Masons here are likely to believe you. So why don't you do so?

i only wanted peoples opinion on it ............instead it was hijacked by masons defending masonry............................thanks for posting those fuller passages by pike..............if we are going to discuss him here , what are you 'own'or instilled attitudes or other masons thoughts on them.............how do they resonate with you from a stoic masonic stance.................coz i gotta say they dont sit easy in my kind of mind ?:D
As an ex-Mason you are also in a position to tell the non-Masons here how much of Pike's influence you came across within your ex-Lodge. I for example can tell everyone here that through Masonry I had no contact with him or his writings. I only ended up having contact with his writings because anti-Masons kept quoting him, so I bought Morals and Dogma, suprisingly to find the quotes had been edited and changed to fit.

Mike

[lightindarkness]

If Lightindarkness is part of the mainstream lodge, regularity would mean being recognized by the Grand Lodge of England, which requires the following:

Exactly. Most of the masons here are from regular jurisdictions, although a few, like grandsecretary, are fakemasons:
http://www.masonicinfo.com/allengland.htm

I am quite sure hes still going around being hysterical and foaming at the mouth over me, but I put him on ignore quite a while ago. Other than him though, I believe the rest of the masons here are regular. Keystone might be the exception - might, I can't be sure - but I have him on ignore too because he gets a little abusive.

I am open to women's groups though, I don't consider them regular but not really fakemason either. They don't interfere with territorial jurisdiction because the UGLE-amity lodges don't admit women. We do not have any female masons on here as far as I can tell.

[lightindarkness]

.....................................You really have no clue do you?
your 'regular' masonry and the 3 degrees......all that is is a working mans club
and a way of arresting any further spiritual progression........... it is nothing more than say what the boys brigade is in comparison with the S.A.S........................ when it comes to freemasonry........you deny any rituals or customs,deny it has anything to do with spirituality or religion deny that it is heirarichal.........in fact all the contradiction comes from the fact that you are sworn to secrecy so you all lie to protect each other and the brotherhood...... and lies are inconsistant with truth.......... ,I know this I used to be one........I was the same untill i had the realisation of what was really happening........everything in freemasonry has a double meaning....................what is really happenning energetically when rituals are performed is the exact opposite of what the mason understands it to mean..........gradually you are being prepared for the introduction of the
the enlightenment about the 'luciferic' energy. and the true nature of the universal forces ........in your 3 degrees you have false information to base your spirituality on and cannot possibly comprehend the hidden meanings of the symbols you are given or any higher degrees or offshoot lodges etc.....
I know that you really do honestly believe you are right etc...........believe me its not the case......you will see .


The blue lodges degrees ARE freemasonry. Creating the delusion and myth of a mystical 33rd degree ladder is based on ignorance because you falsely assume higher numbers equal more power - even though this ignores all the non Scottish Rite side orders. I am a 32nd degree SR mason and there is nothing going on like you believe it is, and the 33rd degree is a honorary degree.

There is no hierarchy in freemasonry - a hierarchy has fixed top rank, and that doesn't exist in freemasonry. The only ranks are officers, which cycle through and upon completing the cycle they return back to the membership.

Its a anti-mason propaganda myth that masons are "sworn" to "keep secrets." Wrong. I have sworn not to reveal certain signs, symbols, words, and handshakes, which you can conveniently find on google within 1 minute. I don't care that you can find them - its not the point.

Nothing is happening "energetically" in the rituals. If you are going to claim to be a ex-mason then prove it, you don't have to put the lodge number on the forum, PM someone you trust who can call the secretary and verify it. You however, through your posts here, have shown that you are not and never have been a mason.

[grandsecretary]

The blue lodges degrees ARE freemasonry. Creating the delusion and myth of a mystical 33rd degree ladder is based on ignorance because you falsely assume higher numbers equal more power - even though this ignores all the non Scottish Rite side orders. I am a 32nd degree SR mason and there is nothing going on like you believe it is, and the 33rd degree is a honorary degree.

There is no hierarchy in freemasonry - a hierarchy has fixed top rank, and that doesn't exist in freemasonry. The only ranks are officers, which cycle through and upon completing the cycle they return back to the membership.

Its a anti-mason propaganda myth that masons are "sworn" to "keep secrets." Wrong. I have sworn not to reveal certain signs, symbols, words, and handshakes, which you can conveniently find on google within 1 minute. I don't care that you can find them - its not the point.

Nothing is happening "energetically" in the rituals. If you are going to claim to be a ex-mason then prove it, you don't have to put the lodge number on the forum, PM someone you trust who can call the secretary and verify it. You however, through your posts here, have shown that you are not and never have been a mason.

This person wouldn't know the truth if his life depended on it. The entire Moderns system is based upon a system of hirearchy, it is built in to the system, and always has been.

[boots]

. I am a 32nd degree SR mason and there is nothing going on like you believe it is, and the 33rd degree is a honorary degree.

Quite right. Neither the 33rd or 99th degree is the highest.

The highest degree is the 3rd degree.

Your a blatant liar:rolleyes: and don't even know what you are on about. Tripped yourself up here.


There is no hierarchy in freemasonry - a hierarchy has fixed top rank, and that doesn't exist in freemasonry. The only ranks are officers, which cycle through and upon completing the cycle they return back to the membership.

Up to the 3rd degree they can and do after that you can go up in degrees and RANK which is a hierarchy.

Its a anti-mason propaganda myth that masons are "sworn" to "keep secrets." Wrong. I have sworn not to reveal certain signs, symbols, words, and handshakes, which you can conveniently find on google within 1 minute. I don't care that you can find them - its not the point.

You have sworn to keep secret the signs, symbols, words and handshakes. The only thing your hand shakes is your dick.:rolleyes:

Nothing is happening "energetically" in the rituals. If you are going to claim to be a ex-mason then prove it, you don't have to put the lodge number on the forum, PM someone you trust who can call the secretary and verify it. You however, through your posts here, have shown that you are not and never have been a mason.

Everything we do with intent, has energy and a ritual has more energy. It is so becoming quite clear that you are only a pseudo mason. You are a fake.

.

[disconnex]

Your a blatant liar:rolleyes: and don't even know what you are on about. Tripped yourself up here.
.

Thank you, it's almost like he speaks in riddles. Is there rank or isn't there. If there is rank than there is a hierarchy. If 3rd degree is the highest, than how are you 32nd degree.

[boots]

Thank you, it's almost like he speaks in riddles. Is there rank or isn't there. If there is rank than there is a hierarchy. If 3rd degree is the highest, than how are you 32nd degree.

Dont worry he will soon be calling us fascist:rolleyes: or disinfo agents:rolleyes: might even throw in the odd "you fail" bit. lol.


.

[lightindarkness]

Thank you, it's almost like he speaks in riddles. Is there rank or isn't there. If there is rank than there is a hierarchy. If 3rd degree is the highest, than how are you 32nd degree.

I've already debunked this, but here you go again:

There are no riddles, its just you believing in myths. When you believe in myths, it can be hard to understand reality. You have assumed - wrongly - that a increase in numerical values signifies rank, authority, power, or something else. This is not true. Beyond the 3rd degree it simply means one has set through another allegorical play in the Scottish Rite or the York Rite (which anti-masons largely ignore because it doesn't have those large numbers you guys love to obsess with.)

All masons, regardless of degrees, are equal. The degrees simply signify that a particular lesson has went through a allegorical play, it doesn't convey rank or anything else. The 3rd degree completes the allegorical legend of the blue lodge (and the other side degrees which - one more time - do not confer rank/authority/power/anything, simply build upon that legend), which is why a 3rd degree mason is a full member and that degree is consider for practical purposes the "highest" degree.

[localidiot]

Masonry itself is made up of three degrees:
1.Entered Apprentice
2.FellowCraft
3. Master Mason

There are a number of side orders that a Master Mason is eligible to join.
Among those is the famous Scottish Rite, one of the two main rite systems in America, the other main body being the York Rite.
Both are assembled from from degrees already existing in Europe.
No degree system is higher ranked than the other, especially in Europe, where the degrees that make up both rites are still practiced separately.

Again, each degree system is separate from the other, and no degree system is ranked as more important than the initial three degrees.


Keystone might be the exception - might, I can't be sure - but I have him on ignore too because he gets a little abusive.


No offense, friend, but you aren't exactly mellow yellow either. :)

[lightindarkness]

Your a blatant liar:rolleyes: and don't even know what you are on about. Tripped yourself up here.




Up to the 3rd degree they can and do after that you can go up in degrees and RANK which is a hierarchy.



You have sworn to keep secret the signs, symbols, words and handshakes. The only thing your hand shakes is your dick.:rolleyes:



Everything we do with intent, has energy and a ritual has more energy. It is so becoming quite clear that you are only a pseudo mason. You are a fake.

.

Poor boots, have you not had your medicine today? I know the truth angers and sends you into fits of rage, but really it'll be alright. Just ignore the truth like you always do.

As I have previously debunked you and showed, the highest degree is the 3rd degree because it completes the blue lodge story. All other degrees simply build upon that legend and do NOT confer rank. No matter how bad you want it to be so, it won't change reality.

Your new age obsession with "energy" is your own. You are showing yourself to be a lackluster anti-mason. No wonder the anti-mason movement is dying - with people like you in it, who can take it seriously?

[lightindarkness]

No offense, friend, but you aren't exactly mellow yellow either. :)

Just against the hysterical antis and fakemasons :D Really I find them quite amusing.

Unfortunately we don't seem to have too many "reasonable" anti-masons on here who are at least semi in touch with reality, all of them are off their rockers and dreaming of NWO plots against them. Oh well, I can only hope...then maybe a real debate can take place.

[boots]

Poor boots, have you not had your medicine today? I know the truth angers and sends you into fits of rage, but really it'll be alright. Just ignore the truth like you always do.

As I have previously debunked you and showed, the highest degree is the 3rd degree because it completes the blue lodge story. All other degrees simply build upon that legend and do NOT confer rank. No matter how bad you want it to be so, it won't change reality.

Your new age obsession with "energy" is your own. You are showing yourself to be a lackluster anti-mason. No wonder the anti-mason movement is dying - with people like you in it, who can take it seriously?

You have a lot to learn tosser. if you think I'm angry then you really are deluded.

BTW you have been debunked by quite a few masons on this site already. That shows you how much you even know about your own craft.


.

[localidiot]

Just against the hysterical antis and fakemasons :D Really I find them quite amusing.

Unfortunately we don't seem to have too many "reasonable" anti-masons on here who are at least semi in touch with reality, all of them are off their rockers and dreaming of NWO plots against them. Oh well, I can only hope...then maybe a real debate can take place.

Yep, but the way you're coming across here is like the people who stand on the corner, screaming. You've got to keep it calm or folks are just going to go along, and wheel up their window.

[keystone]

Yep, but the way you're coming across here is like the people who stand on the corner, screaming. You've got to keep it calm or folks are just going to go along, and wheel up their window.When I told him that I got put on ignore for "being aggressive". Do I care? No not really - my life is broken since LiD put me on ignore. :D

[soulja]

The M sign is nothing but BS and imagination. We've done this to death already - it isn't a masonic sign.

yea you masons have done it to death allright.

death of your credibility ;)

[keystone]

death of your credibility ;)What a crass remark. Its very simple. The so-called M sign is NOT a masonic sign. I'm not lying it just isn't. It's all in EDs imagination that it is. Apart from it being more fun to believe him rather than believe me what makes you think it is? Because one person says so? Really robust research that is huh?

[soulja]

What a crass remark. Its very simple. The so-called M sign is NOT a masonic sign. I'm not lying it just isn't. It's all in EDs imagination that it is. Apart from it being more fun to believe him rather than believe me what makes you think it is? Because one person says so? Really robust research that is huh?

it has nothing todo with fun and all todo with the M sign being used way too often to be coincidence.

[keystone]

it has nothing todo with fun and all todo with the M sign being used way too often to be coincidence.OK then. Why is it masonic then apart from it being an M which is the sort of association I'd expect from my 8 year old. Would you accept that there is a distinct possibility that it has nothing to do with masonry or any other society or institution but everything to do with an obvious celebrity "quirk" of jumping on bandwagons because you have to be seen to be doing so. He's doing it so so must I!

[soulja]

OK then. Why is it masonic then apart from it being an M which is the sort of association I'd expect from my 8 year old. Would you accept that there is a distinct possibility that it has nothing to do with masonry or any other society or institution but everything to do with an obvious celebrity "quirk" of jumping on bandwagons because you have to be seen to be doing so. He's doing it so so must I!

ok, we have managed the first step together. you accept that there is a 'M' sign but you claim it has nothing todo with masonry or the frat system or what heavier and all todo with celebs jumping on the bandwagon.

that's pretty good keystone, i'm proud of you.

but to answer your question, NO and tbh your explaination sounds more like the product of an 8 year old than mine.

of course that's my opinion and i guess we just have to agree to disagree on that one. like we do on pretty much everything else :D

[localidiot]

reply to Soulja


originally posted by Keystone
Why is it masonic then apart from it being an M [...]


Leaving off the last bit he said there, why do you insist the M sign is Masonic?

[disconnex]

numbers you guys love to obsess with.)


Let's get this clear, I care nothing about freemasons, in fact I think all this banter only inflates your ego. I'm just pointing out your own verbal trip ups. You always throw a red herring in the mix, for your satisfaction here's one of your own links to define what that is:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

When someone calls you out on something, you go off on a tottaly different trip that doesn't even address what's been cited. I would give you more credibility if your stories were straight, that's all.

[localidiot]

Actually, the way masonry is set up, when it comes to the 33rd degree versus the 3rd degree, he's right.
Only the First three degrees are important in Masonry.
The Scottish Rite, like the York Rite and the Shriners are seperate from Masonry, though are organizations a Master Mason can join one he's at the third degree.
It doesn''t matter is he is a 33rd degree or has totaled on hundred seperate degrees however, the member woould have no extra power over a Third Degree mason.
Pretty much the only exception is when a Mason is voted in as a officer of the Lodge.

Best example my muddled brain can come up with at the moment would be of a karate belt rankig.
Each belt signifies that the student has learned their matierial and knows it well enough to pass.
However, the belt only gives a certain amount of respect, most of it comes from the person themselves. You can have brown belts getting help from yellow belts, red from blues, ect.

[keystone]

ok, we have managed the first step together. you accept that there is a 'M' sign but you claim it has nothing todo with masonry or the frat system or what heavier and all todo with celebs jumping on the bandwagon.No I said it most certainly is not a masonic sign. I claimed nothing about celebs. I said "is it a possibility"? That's not claiming it's questioning.

of course that's my opinion and i guess we just have to agree to disagree on that one. like we do on pretty much everything else :D[/QUOTE]Oh I'm quite happy to agree to disagree. Just so long as we get along a mutually respect one anothers position. Do we disagree on everything else? Mmm - lets see in the future shall we?

[keystone]

Actually, the way masonry is set up, when it comes to the 33rd degree versus the 3rd degree, he's right.
Only the First three degrees are important in Masonry.
The Scottish Rite, like the York Rite and the Shriners are seperate from Masonry, though are organizations a Master Mason can join one he's at the third degree.
It doesn''t matter is he is a 33rd degree or has totaled on hundred seperate degrees however, the member woould have no extra power over a Third Degree mason.
Pretty much the only exception is when a Mason is voted in as a officer of the Lodge.

Best example my muddled brain can come up with at the moment would be of a karate belt rankig.
Each belt signifies that the student has learned their matierial and knows it well enough to pass.
However, the belt only gives a certain amount of respect, most of it comes from the person themselves. You can have brown belts getting help from yellow belts, red from blues, ect.

Yes you are correct but I recognise that some peeps will never believe it.

[keystone]

reply to Soulja



Leaving off the last bit he said there, why do you insist the M sign is Masonic?

Soulja - yes please explain why you feel this is a masonic sign. It's quite important because this point is right at the root of this discussion.

[stewart edwards]

Actually, the way masonry is set up, when it comes to the 33rd degree versus the 3rd degree, he's right.
Only the First three degrees are important in Masonry.
The Scottish Rite, like the York Rite and the Shriners are seperate from Masonry, though are organizations a Master Mason can join one he's at the third degree. True for UGLE amity Freemasonry but not necessarily for Continental Freemasonry, It is entirely correct to say that the SD of MM is the highest degree in Craft Masonry, however that does not necessarily mean it is the highest degree in freemasonry per se.

In my Order, initiatory continuity from 1-33 is a landmark. This means that the entire AASR is operated under the auspices of the same masonic authority (the Supreme Council), and is seen as one single, naturally progressive system.I have not given the source to protect the masonic forum from unnecessary flaming but it is easily findable. The post was made yesterday by someone I know is a freemason in said Masonic order. Now some UGLE-amity Masons may say "well they are not real Freemasons" etc, but in the eyes of the non masonic world that is academic, and in continental Europe, especialy France, UGLE amity is the minority player.

Just thought it important to remind forumites that there is more than one flavour of Freemasonry in the world and they do do things differently.

[keystone]

Better stand by for an in-coming from N Carolina then. Its a good job that Kings Bay is in Georgia. :D

[grandsecretary]

True for UGLE amity Freemasonry but not necessarily for Continental Freemasonry, I have not given the source to protect the masonic forum from unnecessary flaming but it is easily findable. The post was made yesterday by someone I know is a freemason in said Masonic order. Now some UGLE-amity Masons may say "well they are not real Freemasons" etc, but in the eyes of the non masonic world that is academic, and in continental Europe, especialy France, UGLE amity is the minority player.

Just thought it important to remind forumites that there is more than one flavour of Freemasonry in the world and they do do things differently.

Not true for the UGLE either Stewart. The real power and influence is exerted in 10 Duke Street, St James's. Why otherwise would The Grand Master of the UGLE be initiated a member of the Supreme Council 33 degree, thereby accepting the supremacy of its Most Puissant Sovereign Grand Commander?

[elysiansix]

I have very little to say abou this load of old codswallop as if you search the forum you'll find we did it all months ago.

However just two points:

First there is no Masonic hand signal that looks like an M. That's because M is not a Masonic symbol.

Second: The OES is not Freemasonry and it only started in in 1850!

I'm sure as a serious researcher you will be able to use these clues to fill in the rest.

Mike

Just a few things I'd like to point out about this and other posts on the masons: The 'M' sign is ULTRA ULTRA prevalent in masonry - it's the symbol that's portrayed on your aprons for god's sake (like an envelope, with the 'V' in the middle forming the middle part of the 'M'. Why is 'M' so important?
Cos it's the astrological sign for The Virgin - the creator of the Universe ie. she gives birth to it (remember, Freemasonry was A LONG TIME AGO set up as a SPIRITUAL organisation (using spiritual symbols) to help fellow men and women, not like now). Hence the hand symbols expressing 'M'.
As an aside - the letter 'M' is the first letter of the Zionist Messiah.

Scotland (Scottish Rite) is important presumably as Scotland denotes evil - named after Scotia which is the Latin form of 'The Dark Aphrodite'. She was the death goddess, or Skatha/Skadi. As an aside it's also where the Zionist Messiah was born.

And as for the LID quote : ‘The Memphis Rite is ignored because it is irregular and no longer practiced by any large amount of people. You still see it pop up occasionally with the people who claim there are 360 degrees of freemasonry or some other made up number that sounds sexy.'

HARDLY, comrade – despite the fact that the Satanists/Illuminati and for all I know, the Freemasons, are OBSESSED with SEX (goes along with their obsession with rituals, sacrifices and money).
No, the 360 degrees comes from the fact that there are 360 degrees in a CIRCLE, and masonry was once spiritual = the circle represents spirituality (the square represents human or earth).

The Number 33 does exist in Freemasonry. It’s one of the most important numbers as all multiples of 11 are Master numbers.

Maybe these questions have been answered by now, but it seems a lot of squabbling is initiated (SURELY not by FREEMASONS......???? That couldn't possibly be could it?) by these baseline facts.

[keystone]

Just a few things I'd like to point out about this and other posts on the masons: The 'M' sign is ULTRA ULTRA prevalent in masonry - it's the symbol that's portrayed on your aprons for god's sake (like an envelope, with the 'V' in the middle forming the middle part of the 'M'. Why is 'M' so important?Well thats the first time I've EVER heard that description in all my years of membership. That's just plain daft I'm afraid. Plenty of symbolgy on some aprons but no way is there an M. You are seeing. Anyway Eric's book is about a so-called "M" masonic hand sign. There isn't one. Period.

Scotland (Scottish Rite) is important presumably as Scotland denotes evil - Yes I can see that most Calcutta Cup days. :D

And as for the LID quote : ‘The Memphis Rite is ignored because it is irregular and no longer practiced by any large amount of people. You still see it pop up occasionally with the people who claim there are 360 degrees of freemasonry or some other made up number that sounds sexy.'Well yes the Memphis Misraim rite does exist but it's quasi-masonic and nowhere near 360 degrees in it. Where have you seen evidence of 360 degrees in freemaosnry. I'm asking because I am actually interested to find out.

HARDLY, comrade – despite the fact that the Satanists/Illuminati and for all I know, the Freemasons, are OBSESSED with SEX (goes along with their obsession with rituals, sacrifices and money).Well if that were the case then membership should be a lot higher than it is in the case of sex! Sorry you are wrong about freemasonry in this respect. Oh and about sacrifices as well. Money? Yes please I need some - I'm overdrawn again. Stanists/Illuminati - you could be right but as we've been telling peeps for along time they have zip to do with freemasonry.

The Number 33 does exist in Freemasonry.Yes of course it does. Who denied it?

Maybe these questions have been answered by now, but it seems a lot of squabbling is initiated (SURELY not by FREEMASONS......???? That couldn't possibly be could it?) by these baseline facts.Some of your "baseline facts" aren't.

[grandsecretary]

Masonic Aprons before the Moderns and before the shapes of today made necessary by factory mass production:
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/TableMeeting-1.jpg

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/MasonicMeeting1705.jpg

No M's.

[keystone]

@ Humito

You appear to have missed a question at post #63.

@ Soulja

Ditto post #88 but someone else also asked it at post #83.

[elysiansix]

[QUOTE=keystone;701577]Well thats the first time I've EVER heard that description in all my years of membership. That's just plain daft I'm afraid. Plenty of symbolgy on some aprons but no way is there an M. You are seeing. Anyway Eric's book is about a so-called "M" masonic hand sign. There isn't one. Period.......

.......Well yes the Memphis Misraim rite does exist but it's quasi-masonic and nowhere near 360 degrees in it. Where have you seen evidence of 360 degrees in freemaosnry. I'm asking because I am actually interested to find out.

EEOOOOUUU !!!
Actually, comrade.......the post I was replying to (first few pages) about the paintings in the book referenced DID talk about masonic hand signs portraying the letter 'M' - look at the positions of all the fingers - arranged in shape of an 'M'. And anyone who looks up Masonic Regalia on the Internet (yes, I really am that sad) will see jumping out at them the shape of an ‘M’ from all the aprons on display. Try different perspectives, comrade – it really does the trick!!

I don't think I did say there is 360 degrees in Masonry - only where that number comes from. For all I know after 33 degrees the Masonic Network goes underground (if it's even remotely possible to be more hidden than they already are) and devolves to the Illuminati-Zionists/Satanists. You can be sure that somewhere in the Satanists' logbook they have the number 360 degrees featured, that being representative of a circle i.e. spirituality, i.e. the female aspect and foundation of all life (lest we forget) before she was turned into nothing more than a symbol for prostitution.

But we can sit here and postulate all day long - which, frankly, is rather a waste of time and I would simply hate to attract more nitpicking and baseline criticism from you.

[stewart edwards]

Scotland (Scottish Rite) is important presumably as Scotland denotes evilAt a Scot, how should I react to this? I know lets stir the pot. Did you know that some Scottish researchers suggest there is thought that the Bagpipes that hearld in new year around the World and are to be seen globally in public ceremonies derive from the pipers of Thebes in Ancient Egypt?:D

Scotland denotes Freedom. Have you never watched Braveheart?;)

(Sorry for the flippant response but it is New Years Day (hic) and I can blame last nights alcohol).:eek:

[grandsecretary]

[QUOTE=keystone;701577]Well thats the first time I've EVER heard that description in all my years of membership. That's just plain daft I'm afraid. Plenty of symbolgy on some aprons but no way is there an M. You are seeing. Anyway Eric's book is about a so-called "M" masonic hand sign. There isn't one. Period.......

.......Well yes the Memphis Misraim rite does exist but it's quasi-masonic and nowhere near 360 degrees in it. Where have you seen evidence of 360 degrees in freemaosnry. I'm asking because I am actually interested to find out.

EEOOOOUUU !!!
Actually, comrade.......the post I was replying to (first few pages) about the paintings in the book referenced DID talk about masonic hand signs portraying the letter 'M' - look at the positions of all the fingers - arranged in shape of an 'M'. And anyone who looks up Masonic Regalia on the Internet (yes, I really am that sad) will see jumping out at them the shape of an ‘M’ from all the aprons on display. Try different perspectives, comrade – it really does the trick!!

I don't think I did say there is 360 degrees in Masonry - only where that number comes from. For all I know after 33 degrees the Masonic Network goes underground (if it's even remotely possible to be more hidden than they already are) and devolves to the Illuminati-Zionists/Satanists. You can be sure that somewhere in the Satanists' logbook they have the number 360 degrees featured, that being representative of a circle i.e. spirituality, i.e. the female aspect and foundation of all life (lest we forget) before she was turned into nothing more than a symbol for prostitution.

But we can sit here and postulate all day long - which, frankly, is rather a waste of time and I would simply hate to attract more nitpicking and baseline criticism from you.

Not a waste of time at all, we have demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt that there are no "M" signs used in Freemasonry. What possible use could it have?

Here is a typical portrait packed full of Masonic imagery, no "M" sign.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/WilliamHerbert.jpg

Here is another:

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/SirThomasGresham.jpg

No "M" sign.

The shape of the aprons that you are looking at, which I will label "English Modern", is determined by the mass manufacturing process. No "M".

Please take a look at my earlier posting. It includes pictures of the old type of aprons pre-manufactory.

Why can't some people simply just say, "Thank you for taking the trouble to explain, I was wrong?"

[grandsecretary]

At a Scot, how should I react to this? I know lets stir the pot. Did you know that some Scottish researchers suggest there is thought that the Bagpipes that hearld in new year around the World and are to be seen globally in public ceremonies derive from the pipers of Thebes in Ancient Egypt?:D

Scotland denotes Freedom. Have you never watched Braveheart?;)

(Sorry for the flippant response but it is New Years Day (hic) and I can blame last nights alcohol).:eek:

He deliberately misrepresents the word "Scotia" Stewart. He suggests that it is named after Skatha or Skadia, the death Goddess, but he is just using an ill-educated scam to try to prove a silly and offensive racist point.

In fact, it is as is used in "Scotia eadem et Hibernia". The word "Scotia" was used in Anglo-Saxon times to describe "the Land of the Gaels", or Britain, North of the Firth of Forth.

You might like to take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scota

[elysiansix]

[QUOTE=elysiansix;701693]

Not a waste of time at all, we have demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt that there are no "M" signs used in Freemasonry. What possible use could it have?

Here is a typical portrait packed full of Masonic imagery, no "M" sign.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/WilliamHerbert.jpg

Here is another:

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/SirThomasGresham.jpg

No "M" sign.

The shape of the aprons that you are looking at, which I will label "English Modern", is determined by the mass manufacturing process. No "M".

Please take a look at my earlier posting. It includes pictures of the old type of aprons pre-manufactory.

Why can't some people simply just say, "Thank you for taking the trouble to explain, I was wrong?"

Okay. Let's just take my earlier suggestion of viewing subjects from an alternative perspective. (Those Masonic paintings, by the way..... NO APRONS in them......... errrrrrr!).

So, like wot I said about them 360 degrees being MEGA important in spirituality, so is the letter M - so both BOUND to be used by Masonry. ULTRA important, comrade. So if it's not on the old style aprons, it's on the new ones, even if that's from a multi manufacturing error. But to back up my assertion why don't I offer the first reference that I found on the internet of the prevalence of "M" in Freemasonry: Look up "Hermetic Masonry: The Beginning of Masonry and AUM 'The Lost Word'" , on Google and go to page 37. For those short on time the quote I'm looking at is "In Orient Masonry the letter M is employed instead of G in connection with the square and compass......"
Not only that (on a preceding page) but "from the earliest times the letter M, with the value of 40 has been the mystical character of this incarnate Word......".

So bottom line, really, is that if the Freemasons are not visibly using the letter M which is interlaced in all their TEACHINGS (particularly since it's the first letter of the forename of the Masonic and the Zionist Messiah), they're missing a trick - or ten - in a major, major way. And that's just not the way Freemasons-Zionists-Illuminati play their game, is it? No it ain't, speaking from very first hand experience of their manipulating and blatantly threatening behaviour. They will use whatever they can to hide behind.

To quote "Why can't some people simply just say, "Thank you for taking the trouble to explain, I was wrong?"

I've got no shame when it comes to admitting to mistakes - just that I haven't made one, comrade.

[elysiansix]

He deliberately misrepresents the word "Scotia" Stewart. He suggests that it is named after Skatha or Skadia, the death Goddess, but he is just using an ill-educated scam to try to prove a silly and offensive racist point.

In fact, it is as is used in "Scotia eadem et Hibernia". The word "Scotia" was used in Anglo-Saxon times to describe "the Land of the Gaels", or Britain, North of the Firth of Forth.

You might like to take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scota

Actually, what I said is a direct quote from "The Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets" by Barbara G Walker. Page 901.
It's neither a silly nor a racist point - I'm just plainly stating facts I have come across - all of which proves how the Freemasons-Zionists-Illuminati-Satanists use any potential dividing lines between people (race, gender, faith, money, intelligence) to create further schisms.
I'm the least racist person I've ever met (except when it comes to people who intentionally manipulate truths and goodness, like Satanists).
Oh and I'm a female by the way.
By the way (2), do you know the symbolism or hidden meaning behind 'north' plus 'firth of forth'? I presume you do, since you've used it in the above quote.

[stewart edwards]

do you know the symbolism or hidden meaning behind 'north' plus 'firth of forth'? I know that this question was not aimed at me, but I know the forth well and am very interested. Please tell me.

[grandsecretary]

[QUOTE=grandsecretary;701747]

Okay. Let's just take my earlier suggestion of viewing subjects from an alternative perspective. (Those Masonic paintings, by the way..... NO APRONS in them......... errrrrrr!).

So, like wot I said about them 360 degrees being MEGA important in spirituality, so is the letter M - so both BOUND to be used by Masonry. ULTRA important, comrade. So if it's not on the old style aprons, it's on the new ones, even if that's from a multi manufacturing error. But to back up my assertion why don't I offer the first reference that I found on the internet of the prevalence of "M" in Freemasonry: Look up "Hermetic Masonry: The Beginning of Masonry and AUM 'The Lost Word'" , on Google and go to page 37. For those short on time the quote I'm looking at is "In Orient Masonry the letter M is employed instead of G in connection with the square and compass......"
Not only that (on a preceding page) but "from the earliest times the letter M, with the value of 40 has been the mystical character of this incarnate Word......".

So bottom line, really, is that if the Freemasons are not visibly using the letter M which is interlaced in all their TEACHINGS (particularly since it's the first letter of the forename of the Masonic and the Zionist Messiah), they're missing a trick - or ten - in a major, major way. And that's just not the way Freemasons-Zionists-Illuminati play their game, is it? No it ain't, speaking from very first hand experience of their manipulating and blatantly threatening behaviour. They will use whatever they can to hide behind.

To quote "Why can't some people simply just say, "Thank you for taking the trouble to explain, I was wrong?"

I've got no shame when it comes to admitting to mistakes - just that I haven't made one, comrade.

Sheesh - Hermetic symbolism. I see where you get it from now.

So you tell me, why would any Freemason, Modern or otherwise, use an "M" sign, especially Moderns Freemasons who de-Christianised Freemasonry in 1723?

If anyone was to use the so-called "M" sign it would be us, religious Ancient York Masons - and yet we don't, and as far as I can tell we never have.

Why would someone like Elvis Presley use a so-called Masonic "M" sign (unless he wanted More hamburgers?) Do you really believe that Elvis Presley was into hermetic symbolism - thank you very much?

Doris Day? Ronnie Woods? Come on now.

[grandsecretary]

Actually, what I said is a direct quote from "The Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets" by Barbara G Walker. Page 901.
It's neither a silly nor a racist point - I'm just plainly stating facts I have come across - all of which proves how the Freemasons-Zionists-Illuminati-Satanists use any potential dividing lines between people (race, gender, faith, money, intelligence) to create further schisms.
I'm the least racist person I've ever met (except when it comes to people who intentionally manipulate truths and goodness, like Satanists).
Oh and I'm a female by the way.
By the way (2), do you know the symbolism or hidden meaning behind 'north' plus 'firth of forth'? I presume you do, since you've used it in the above quote.

No I don't, but I have this terrible feeling that you are about to tell me what I meant when I said what I said without knowing what I said I said. Grief!

[elysiansix]

[QUOTE=elysiansix;701933]

Sheesh - Hermetic symbolism. I see where you get it from now.

So you tell me, why would any Freemason, Modern or otherwise, use an "M" sign, especially Moderns Freemasons who de-Christianised Freemasonry in 1723?

If anyone was to use the so-called "M" sign it would be us, religious Ancient York Masons - and yet we don't, and as far as I can tell we never have.

Why would someone like Elvis Presley use a so-called Masonic "M" sign (unless he wanted More hamburgers?) Do you really believe that Elvis Presley was into hermetic symbolism - thank you very much?

Doris Day? Ronnie Woods? Come on now.

Yes. Elvis was into Hermetic Masonry - or at least he was being controlled by those who were. The date of his death (16/8) are important numbers in Sacred Geometry 1.618 (not very coincidentally, the birthdate of the Mother of all Icons - MADONNA), plus he had Kabbalah-important initials (EP or PE means mouth i.e. voice) plus his surname = Presley has important syllables (PRES = used in 'magic') plus his wife had important names e.g. Beaulieu.
His name 'Elvis' is an anagram for Veils and Evils. BUt it goes on and on - all these famous (and even non famous people) have symbolism. The more they have, the more they will be used.

Ronnie Wood from the Rolling Stones? Stone as in Philosophers' Stone you mean? All tied in.

And the deChristianisation of Masonry must have been done for its members' benefits - cos they still worship - via all the symbolism - the ZIONIST Messiah, whose birthdate contains the numbers that are crucially important in the construction of the Pillars of Jachim and Boaz (18 and 12): those 'towers' of the Kabbalah and Tarot. All interconnected.
How many Freemasons don't know any of this I wonder.

I will get back to both queries about the north of the Firth of Forth soon.

[grandsecretary]

[QUOTE=grandsecretary;701992]

Yes. Elvis was into Hermetic Masonry - or at least he was being controlled by those who were. The date of his death (16/8) are important numbers in Sacred Geometry 1.618 (not very coincidentally, the birthdate of the Mother of all Icons - MADONNA), plus he had Kabbalah-important initials (EP or PE means mouth i.e. voice) plus his surname = Presley has important syllables (PRES = used in 'magic') plus his wife had important names e.g. Beaulieu.
His name 'Elvis' is an anagram for Veils and Evils. BUt it goes on and on - all these famous (and even non famous people) have symbolism. The more they have, the more they will be used.

Ronnie Wood from the Rolling Stones? Stone as in Philosophers' Stone you mean? All tied in.

And the deChristianisation of Masonry must have been done for its members' benefits - cos they still worship - via all the symbolism - the ZIONIST Messiah, whose birthdate contains the numbers that are crucially important in the construction of the Pillars of Jachim and Boaz (18 and 12): those 'towers' of the Kabbalah and Tarot. All interconnected.
How many Freemasons don't know any of this I wonder.

I will get back to both queries about the north of the Firth of Forth soon.

Oh no! The same date as the Queen of lip-sinc. Now that is scary! Has anyone ever suggested that you are completely bonkers? Sorry lytemocple knobres.

[elysiansix]

[QUOTE=elysiansix;702100]

Oh no! The same date as the Queen of lip-sinc. Now that is scary! Has anyone ever suggested that you are completely bonkers? Sorry lytemocple knobres.

Eeeeewwwwwwwwwww!!!!

Last outpost of members of freemasonry and all other secret societies whose MAIN AIM is to FOB people off the TRUTH (others being ridicule, attack, debase, deny) is to call them a lunatic or to infer that they are completely out of their minds. Yea, I'm getting used to living in a mental asylum. That's what happens when you present people with the very simple truth.

[keystone]

Can't you people drive the quote function properly?

[keystone]

Eeeeewwwwwwwwwww!!!!

Last outpost of members of freemasonry and all other secret societies whose MAIN AIM is to FOB people off the TRUTH (others being ridicule, attack, debase, deny) is to call them a lunatic or to infer that they are completely out of their minds. Yea, I'm getting used to living in a mental asylum. That's what happens when you present people with the very simple truth.

There may be some that do. There are others who are not so inclined though. Thats a fact of life on any subject whatsoever. So your simple truth thus far has provided nothing of substance. Perhaps you could provide something thats worth discussing. That would be good.

[elysiansix]

At a Scot, how should I react to this? I know lets stir the pot. Did you know that some Scottish researchers suggest there is thought that the Bagpipes that hearld in new year around the World and are to be seen globally in public ceremonies derive from the pipers of Thebes in Ancient Egypt?:D

Scotland denotes Freedom. Have you never watched Braveheart?;)

(Sorry for the flippant response but it is New Years Day (hic) and I can blame last nights alcohol).:eek:

You might want to look into the meaning of Burns' Night, the haggis, Edinburgh Festival as well as the bagpipes.
How can scotland denote Freedom when it's been hijacked by the Illuminati-Zionists and Satanist to used in their quest for perversion of all that was once good.

Don't take it personally - Ken Bruce has no problem with it whatsoever (but maybe that's cos he's a Mason.............hmmmmm).

[elysiansix]

There may be some that do. There are others who are not so inclined though. Thats a fact of life on any subject whatsoever. So your simple truth thus far has provided nothing of substance. Perhaps you could provide something thats worth discussing. That would be good.

I've provided plenty of evidence. No doubt if I give you incontrovertible proof of the identity of the Jewish-Zionist Messiah you would deny that outright as well. That's what you people do - deny all fragments of truth.

This is why there is such a mess in the world - because the Zionists are obsessed with promoting their Jewish 'Messiah' i.e. shoving him down everyone's throats, completely ignoring the mess that the world is in because of their parallel obsession with highlighting all the good points that there are (all of which have no doubt been funded by massive overspending on credit.)

For anyone looking in here - all you have to make money with in the future is your Symbolism - what mythological meaning you have in your name that will promote these satanists and their guitar strumming frontman who must be really sick in the head to agree to be a Messiah knowing he's the biggest con artist and joker this side of the Arctic.

Outside of that it's Communist hell from hereonin everyone....................... WAKEY WAKEY.

[keystone]

I've provided plenty of evidence.Hmm.

No doubt if I give you incontrovertible proof of the identity of the Jewish-Zionist Messiah you would deny that outright as well.Not at all. I'd be very interested. I'd also like to hear why you think that that has anything to do with freemasonry.

This is why there is such a mess in the world - because the Zionists are obsessed with promoting their Jewish 'Messiah' i.e. shoving him down everyone's throats, completely ignoring the mess that the world is in because of their parallel obsession with highlighting all the good points that there are (all of which have no doubt been funded by massive overspending on credit.)Maybe but whats that got to do with freemasonry?

For anyone looking in here - all you have to make money with in the future is your Symbolism - what mythological meaning you have in your name that will promote these satanists and their guitar strumming frontman who must be really sick in the head to agree to be a Messiah knowing he's the biggest con artist and joker this side of the Arctic.Who are you talking about?

[elysiansix]

Hmm.

Not at all. I'd be very interested. I'd also like to hear why you think that that has anything to do with freemasonry.

Maybe but whats that got to do with freemasonry?

Who are you talking about?

He's a 33 degree Freemason. Now if I revealed his identity on here (it's not that difficult to work out) how happy are his handlers going to be? I could give you details of how they are threatening my life already for not agreeing to be used as his f*ck mate, without throwing that into the pot.
If you want to know his ID I'm afraid you'll have to sign up for my classes or sessions.

The Satanists started off in life as Joe Average who thought he would try and instill a bit of good in his home town - so he joined the local 'Lions' club. That's it - there's the start of it. the Zionist Messiah has a birth sign of 'Leo' (Lion of Judea = Christ). Then Joe learns a bit more, moves up into Freemasonry, moves furher away from his core because of 'work' he's involved in and finds that he needs greater stimulation to achieve previously attainable heights. Somehow things just "aren't what they used to be" as he gets involved with more and more shady goings on and people..............

But what the heck ..........you've all read books like this before - how once good intent turns to perniciously evil. Same with the Satanists: Freemasonry is but a mere stepping stone.
All Freemasons are promoting the Zionist cause (and its Messiah) through their use of symbolism. Not that many of them know it.

[keystone]

He's a 33 degree Freemason. Now if I revealed his identity on here (it's not that difficult to work out) how happy are his handlers going to be? I could give you details of how they are threatening my life already for not agreeing to be used as his f*ck mate, without throwing that into the pot.So you don't know then.

If you want to know his ID I'm afraid you'll have to sign up for my classes or sessions.So this whole exerecise is just a commercial for your site thats exists to extract cash out of people is it?

The Satanists started off in life as Joe Average who thought he would try and instill a bit of good in his home town - so he joined the local 'Lions' club. That's it - there's the start of it. the Zionist Messiah has a birth sign of 'Leo' (Lion of Judea = Christ). Then Joe learns a bit more, moves up into Freemasonry, moves furher away from his core because of 'work' he's involved in and finds that he needs greater stimulation to achieve previously attainable heights. Somehow things just "aren't what they used to be" as he gets involved with more and more shady goings on and people.............. Riddles.

But what the heck ..........you've all read books like this before - how once good intent turns to perniciously evil. Same with the Satanists: Freemasonry is but a mere stepping stone.
All Freemasons are promoting the Zionist cause (and its Messiah) through their use of symbolism. Not that many of them know it.Go on then - connect the dots please.

[grandsecretary]

[QUOTE=grandsecretary;702245]

Eeeeewwwwwwwwwww!!!!

Last outpost of members of freemasonry and all other secret societies whose MAIN AIM is to FOB people off the TRUTH (others being ridicule, attack, debase, deny) is to call them a lunatic or to infer that they are completely out of their minds. Yea, I'm getting used to living in a mental asylum. That's what happens when you present people with the very simple truth.

Surely you don't believe that Doris Day and Elvis Presley were secret Masons giving out secret "M" signs? Please say that you are joking because it is la-la land stuff.

Come on, let's discuss the issue, so-called "M" signs.

I asked you a question. Why, when we have more signs than we could throw a stick at, would we deny one that doesn't even exist? What possible use could it have?

If I wanted to let someone know publicly that I am a Mason I would NOT use a so-called "M" sign and any other Mason here would confirm this. Why would we have "M" signs on aprons in order to reveal that we are secret Masons? The apron itself would be a bit of a clue, wouldn't it?

[grandsecretary]

This might help understanding un this thread:

MESSIANIC JUDAISM

"The Messianic age is when the Jews will regain their independence and all return to the land of Israel. The Messiah will be a very great king, he will achieve great fame, and his reputation among the gentile nations will be even greater than that of King Solomon. His great righteousness and the wonders that he will bring about will cause all peoples to make peace with him and all lands to serve him.... Nothing will change in the Messianic age, however, except that Jews will regain their independence. Rich and poor, strong and weak, will still exist. However it will be very easy for people to make a living, and with very little effort they will be able to accomplish very much.... it will be a time when the number of wise men will increase...war shall not exist, and nation shall no longer lift up sword against nation.... The Messianic age will be highlighted by a community of the righteous and dominated by goodness and wisdom. It will be ruled by the Messiah, a righteous and honest king, outstanding in wisdom, and close to God. Do not think that the ways of the world or the laws of nature will change, this is not true. The world will continue as it is. The prophet Isaiah predicted "The wolf shall live with the sheep, the leopard shall lie down with the kid." This, however, is merely allegory, meaning that the Jews will live safely, even with the formerly wicked nations. All nations will return to the true religion [monotheism, although not necessarily Judaism] and will no longer steal or oppress. Note that all prophecies regarding the Messiah are allegorical - Only in the Messianic age will we know the meaning of each allegory and what it comes to teach us. Our sages and prophets did not long for the Messianic age in order that they might rule the world and dominate the gentiles... the only thing they wanted was to be free for Jews to involve themselves with the Torah and its wisdom."

Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon in his commentary on tractate Sanhedrin, of the Babylonian Talmud.

This king will not be a masonic king as there is no connection between Judaism, as a religion, and Freemasonry.

[banoyes]

This might help understanding un this thread:



This king will not be a masonic king as there is no connection between Judaism, as a religion, and Freemasonry.
Tell you what fatuous Grand Peter
I will post MANY links FROM MASON SITES
showing the DIRECT CONNECTION of "Judaism, as a religion, and Freemasonry"
and then, you will go back to your lodge of inequity and never darken this forum again
IF I CANNOT PRODUCE THE SAID
I will never post again
so how about that maison, you gonna back up your claim

[mike martin]

Tell you what fatuous Grand Peter
I will post MANY links FROM MASON SITES
showing the DIRECT CONNECTION of "Judaism, as a religion, and Freemasonry"
and then, you will go back to your lodge of inequity and never darken this forum again
IF I CANNOT PRODUCE THE SAID
I will never post again
so how about that maison, you gonna back up your claim

How many is "many"??

I do wish you would stop calling people "house". It makes you look silly, sorry sillier.

Mike

[grandsecretary]

Tell you what fatuous Grand Peter
I will post MANY links FROM MASON SITES
showing the DIRECT CONNECTION of "Judaism, as a religion, and Freemasonry"
and then, you will go back to your lodge of inequity and never darken this forum again
IF I CANNOT PRODUCE THE SAID
I will never post again
so how about that maison, you gonna back up your claim

Certainly, as soon as you specify EXACTLY what you mean by:

1. Freemasonry, and
2. Mason site.

I am responsible for one Mason site: www.grandlodgeofallengland.org

If you can find a direct connection between the Mason site that I am responsible for and Judaism as a religion then I will resign and emigrate to Outer Mongolia.

Please stop referring to me as Grand Peter, it is offensive to me, just Peter is fine, and I am a Mason, not a maison.

[humito]

ok heres the thing.............there are many occult and secret societies that are offshoots and are connected with masonry on some level.....even the O.T.O,scientology,skull and bones etc ...........................many freemasons can spend their lives involved with the organisation and not get a whiff of anything untoward going on.............the truth of the matter is that if you are not influencial in any way in society i.e. rich,a buisness owner,in politics or entertainment,in local council,involved in law,a member of the aristocracy or part of the armed or police forces or in the media you will have nothing to offer the agenda of the illuminati..........you will most likely stay within blue degrees .......believe you are becomming a better person, do charitable deeds and basically be a pawn for the public front of masonry .Even if you attain any higher degrees in what ever form of masonry you are involved in you may never be aware of the corruption.............however if you are a certain way inclined or give the real answers to questions given during degree initiations or are already in an influencial position then the story is very different.........
the top levels of freemasonry are just the bottom levels of the illuminati pyramid anyway ............in my experience however even those in the blue degrees are not really interested in ritual or so called spiritual progression and just use the organisation as a means to further their own or others carreers and social standing..........obviously not everyone!!.......
the information emparted about the 'true' nature of the universal forces gives the initiate the impression that the elite and those within the pyramid have to be in power and use those forces for the greater good of humanity.............because we are the profane masses and do not know what is good for us............unfortunatly most of those that are in positions of 'power' are really dictated to by the illuminati........they are even at this level compartmentalised and never given the bigger picture.........the infamous Albert Pike would be one of these type of people ........obviously a mouthpeice for the illuminati but still kept in the dark about the bigger picture.
Certain bloodlines manipulate into power too through the masons and other secret societies..................the proof of masonic influence is all around us in entertainment in architecture in the police force and in government and its legislation and the media........any mason who denies this is indeed a 'coincidence theorist'
getting back to the topic of this thread..........perhaps these hand signals are not officially masonic or eastern star.........but as previously stated there are many ,many other similar organisations that exist........most of these and indeed nearly every occult society is based on masonic thought and ritual and kabalah ......therefore masonic is a good catch all term to describe secret signals amongst the elite............IMO

[keystone]

......therefore masonic is a good catch all term to describe secret signals amongst the elite............IMOAhh now you have put your finger on a very important point. Masonic as a "catch-all" term. So when people say "that's masonic" and masons say "no it isn't" from first hand knowledge and the first set of people then reply "yes it is you are lying" who is correct?

[banoyes]

Certainly, as soon as you specify EXACTLY what you mean by:

1. Freemasonry, and
2. Mason site.

I am responsible for one Mason site: www.grandlodgeofallengland.org

If you can find a direct connection between the Mason site that I am responsible for and Judaism as a religion then I will resign and emigrate to Outer Mongolia.

Please stop referring to me as Grand Peter, it is offensive to me, just Peter is fine, and I am a Mason, not a maison.
well Grand Peter
That certainly is a Freemason response
Are you the final arbitrator of what is mason
no
you did not specify "a direct connection between the Mason site that I am responsible for and Judaism as a religion"
you are just a deceptive maison , I am glad your true nature is shown

[humito]

Ahh now you have put your finger on a very important point. Masonic as a "catch-all" term. So when people say "that's masonic" and masons say "no it isn't" from first hand knowledge and the first set of people then reply "yes it is you are lying" who is correct?

well t.b.h...........I would say the first group due to the compartmentalisation
of masonic thought and an inability to see the bigger picture ...............any other hand signals i.e deaf,gang,military or abusive dont really count only the ones from occult or elite groups.......and as already stated most of these groups use ritual etc gleaned from freemasonry so are under the umbrella of masonry so in my opinion they are masonic.

[grandsecretary]

well Grand Peter
That certainly is a Freemason response
Are you the final arbitrator of what is mason
no
you did not specify "a direct connection between the Mason site that I am responsible for and Judaism as a religion"
you are just a deceptive maison , I am glad your true nature is shown

In answer to your rhetorical question, all that I can do is reproduce the final paragraph of The Statement at York for you:

"If he wishes to partake of Masonry in its Original Purity, he will turn his attention to that source, where it hath been Inviolably maintained and continued for Successive Ages to this Day, and where the Legislature of Masonry for this Kingdom stands fixed by its true Title 'The Grand Lodge of All England, Established at the City of York.' " (SOURCE: Statement at York 1779)
That remains our current position, and I am unable to add to it. The full statement may be read on our website, webpage: Statement at York 1779 and it will answer your question for you.

Peter Clatworthy
Grand Secretary
Grand Lodge of All England

[banoyes]

In answer to your rhetorical question, all that I can do is reproduce the final paragraph of The Statement at York for you:


That remains our current position, and I am unable to add to it. The full statement may be read on our website, webpage: Statement at York 1779 and it will answer your question for you.

Peter Clatworthy
Grand Secretary
Grand Lodge of All England
I can read you Grand Peter

[grandsecretary]

I can read you Grand Peter

Thank you banoyes. I hope that you now understand a little better where I am coming from.

[keystone]

well t.b.h...........I would say the first group due to the compartmentalisation
of masonic thought and an inability to see the bigger picture ...............any other hand signals i.e deaf,gang,military or abusive dont really count only the ones from occult or elite groups.......and as already stated most of these groups use ritual etc gleaned from freemasonry so are under the umbrella of masonry so in my opinion they are masonic.

Yes I take your point entirely thats why the masonic world wraps itself in little knots over what is regular and recognised "freemasonry", what is clandestine freemasonry, what are quasi-masonic bodies etc in order that such blurring of the lines shouldn't happen. Its not easy. Many people misunderstand it.

[grandsecretary]

Yes I take your point entirely thats why the masonic world wraps itself in little knots over what is regular and recognised "freemasonry", what is clandestine freemasonry, what are quasi-masonic bodies etc in order that such blurring of the lines shouldn't happen. Its not easy. Many people misunderstand it.

It is very easy. Read the Constitutions of Masonrie.

[keystone]

It is very easy. Read the Constitutions of Masonrie.You prove my point. It may be easy for you but it isn't for an outsider which IS the point.

[banoyes]

It is very easy. Read the Constitutions of Masonrie.
Is" the Constitutions of Masonrie" just for your peculiar brand of the cult
or does it apply to all who hang the mason banner
You really need to be a little more precise with your verbiage
you use your "selectivity" as a cloak

[keystone]

Is" the Constitutions of Masonrie" just for your peculiar brand of the cult
or does it apply to all who hang the mason banner
You really need to be a little more precise with your verbiage
you use your "selectivity" as a cloakA very valid question.

[the_duke]

Is" the Constitutions of Masonrie" just for your peculiar brand of the cult
or does it apply to all who hang the mason banner
You really need to be a little more precise with your verbiage
you use your "selectivity" as a cloak

The 'Grand Secretary' Considers himself a Mason because he does everything a Mason does; he follows the same rules and rituals, wears the same regalia, but his brand of Masonry exists out of the remit of the United Grand Lodge of England.

I have a problem with his and other 'Masonic' alternatives because they are not regular and do not come under the governance of the Grand Lodge of England. He is the Grand Secretary of his 'Grand Lodge' But in regular Freemasonry it would take a lifetime of hard work to reach this position. I guess I could start my own Grand Lodge next week and Make myself Grand Master. By this token, I could call my back garden 'England II, and make myself King...Doesn't mean I'm King does it! Doesn't mean it's Freemasonry either.

I think 'Grand Secretary' is looking at Freemasonry as though it is a philosophy or a way of living that can be followed in any way that he sees fit. Freemasonry is not a Philosophy...It is a fraternal society that exists within the confines of the Grand Lodge of England.

This is not 'the company line'...this is my personal view point. I know 'Regular' Freemasons who have the view of Freemasony being an entity in itself!

But then the sceptic amongst you might say "well Freemasons don't like these quasi-Masoni Orders beacuse they are not run by the controlling elements within Freemasonry!"

Personally I do not believe there to be a conspiracy within Freemasonry...Good friends in high position would have to have lied to me and my family, repeatedly for this to be so. Also If people want to have their own 'Grand Lodge' then they can...but it doesn't make them Masons!!!

[grandsecretary]

Is" the Constitutions of Masonrie" just for your peculiar brand of the cult
or does it apply to all who hang the mason banner
You really need to be a little more precise with your verbiage
you use your "selectivity" as a cloak

Not a cult, as I have pointed out to you previously. THE Constitutions of Masonrie are unique, and freemasons know what I am referring to.

I will add this:

Omnis innovatio plus nontate perturbat quam utilitate prodest

"Antiquity is dear to a Mason's heart; innovation is treason, and saps the venerable fabric of the Order." Ahiman Rezon Page 191

[grandsecretary]

The 'Grand Secretary' Considers himself a Mason because he does everything a Mason does; he follows the same rules and rituals, wears the same regalia, but his brand of Masonry exists out of the remit of the United Grand Lodge of England.

I have a problem with his and other 'Masonic' alternatives because they are not regular and do not come under the governance of the Grand Lodge of England. He is the Grand Secretary of his 'Grand Lodge' But in regular Freemasonry it would take a lifetime of hard work to reach this position. I guess I could start my own Grand Lodge next week and Make myself Grand Master. By this token, I could call my back garden 'England II, and make myself King...Doesn't mean I'm King does it! Doesn't mean it's Freemasonry either.

I think 'Grand Secretary' is looking at Freemasonry as though it is a philosophy or a way of living that can be followed in any way that he sees fit. Freemasonry is not a Philosophy...It is a fraternal society that exists within the confines of the Grand Lodge of England.

This is not 'the company line'...this is my personal view point. I know 'Regular' Freemasons who have the view of Freemasony being an entity in itself!

But then the sceptic amongst you might say "well Freemasons don't like these quasi-Masoni Orders beacuse they are not run by the controlling elements within Freemasonry!"

Personally I do not believe there to be a conspiracy within Freemasonry...Good friends in high position would have to have lied to me and my family, repeatedly for this to be so. Also If people want to have their own 'Grand Lodge' then they can...but it doesn't make them Masons!!!

Propoganda from a Moderns freemason who has rejected THE Constitutions of Masonrie, along with the Ancient Landmarks of the Order, the only true measure of a Free Mason.

[the_duke]

Propoganda from a Moderns freemason who has rejected THE Constitutions of Masonrie.

Not Propaganda my friend. I have no problem with you other than I do not necessarily think that you are a Freemason...this is not an attack, but rather to inform Non-Masons.

Can I ask why do you feel the need to be part of this other 'Grand Lodge' rather than The United Grand Lodge of England? Were you ever part of the United Grand Lodge of England? Would you ever want to be part of the United Grand Lodge of England?

I do apologise if this topic has been discussed before, I have just started a new account (with the same name as my old one) as I erased my old one a while back. If so, can you direct me to it here on the forum?

Thanks

[the_duke]

What I disagree with also is that your organisation represents probably less than 1/1,000,000th of people world-wide who call themselves Freemasons. You are really a tiny, tiny Fringe group.

You then come on this Forum with your 'Grand' title and talk about Freemasonry as though you have some authority and people on here will believe it. I'm sure you have read some books on the subject and understand quite alot, but your organisation is not recognised by other Regular major Masonic entities World-wide.

You do not represent 99.999999% of Freemasons and I do not want anything you have to say on the subject to be seen as anything more than opinion.

[banoyes]

What I disagree with also is that your organisation represents probably less than 1/1,000,000th of people world-wide who call themselves Freemasons. You are really a tiny, tiny Fringe group.

You then come on this Forum with your 'Grand' title and talk about Freemasonry as though you have some authority and people on here will believe it. I'm sure you have read some books on the subject and understand quite alot, but your organisation is not recognised by other Regular major Masonic entities World-wide.

You do not represent 99.999999% of Freemasons and I do not want anything you have to say on the subject to be seen as anything more than opinion.
Aww MAison spats,
HEY
To the cowan, ( 99.94% of the world) you are all , each and everyone of you, the same
Guilty of high crimes and treason

[grandsecretary]

Not Propaganda my friend. I have no problem with you other than I do not necessarily think that you are a Freemason...this is not an attack, but rather to inform Non-Masons.

Can I ask why do you feel the need to be part of this other 'Grand Lodge' rather than The United Grand Lodge of England? Where you ever part of the United Grand Lodge of England? Would you ever want to be part of the United Grand Lodge of England?

I do apologise if this topic has been discussed before, I have just started a new account (with the same name as my old one) as I erased my old one a while back. If so, can you direct me to it here on the forum?

Thanks

I am sorry, I did not realise that you were completely new here, and the non-Masons will make their own minds up, I am sure.

This topic has been discussed here, and elsewhere, for over three years now, ever since the revival of The Grand Lodge of All England at York.

Those few of us who were formerly members of The United Grand Lodge of All England wanted to be Free Masons according to The Constitutions of Masonrie, not the various Anderson Constitutions, which we found to be full of unnacceptable innovations on Masonrie. We regarded this situation to be unsatisfactory, and even uncomfortable for the truly religious Anglo-Saxon Mason.

"Anderson was one of the originators of the London Grand Lodge, and as a man of strong prejudices he was biased in all his inditings, evidences of which are seen throughout his two publications on every possible occasion, in the omission of historical facts, or giving the contrary construction to, and diverting attention in cases reflecting unfavourably upon the New Grand Lodge. The Books of Anderson, however, are almost universally accepted by the Masonic fraternity as containing a true history of Freemasonry, at least from the time our review commences, and the Ancient Charges, especially those contained in the 1723 edition, are as generally adopted as the fundamental law and basis of Masonic principles. But notwithstanding Anderson's Books of Constitutions were published by order of the London Grand Lodge, with its approval and sanction, yet no more untrustworthy, unreliable books were ever printed under the direction of any organised association. We affirm that Anderson is not to be credited. The Books of Constitutions were written purposely to deceive, to mislead and misrepresent facts as they existed; and if his reports of Grand Lodge Proceedings are true copies of Grand Lodge Records, then the records were corrupted with the design to mislead the reader." (SOURCE: Freemasonry in England from 1567 to 1813, Ancient York and London Grand Lodges , pages 15 and 16, by Leon Hyneman, 1871)

We agreed, and still agree entirely with Leon Hyneman, which I hope will go some way to explain to you why we felt obliged to leave behind the Moderns freemasonry that we were engaged in, which we knew beyond doubt, was un-Chartered, un-authorised, quasi-Masonic, and fatally flawed.

We were pleased to discover that The Charter of York was still a legal Royal Charter, and we reverted to the pure and original form of Anglo-Saxon Freemasonry under the authority granted to the Masons of England by this Charter and The Ancient Landmarks of the Order.

We called the Assembly of Masons at York, under the terms of The Royal Charter, inviting ALL and EVERY of the Master Masons of England to attend.

Many did attend in the Mason's Lodge at St Peter York Minster, and they elected The Grand-Master Mason. He appointed me, and I am an employee of The Grand Lodge, until I am sacked, or fall off the perch.

I must stress that I did NOT start The Grand Lodge of All England. That was King Athelstan's prerogative in AD 926. You should know that we were advised at every step by a team of lawyers, both constitutional and Masonic. I hope that this catches you up.

You made some assumptions in your original posting. Please allow me to clear one or two things up for you.

We do NOT use the same Masonic structure as you do, or wear the same Masonic regalia, or use the rituals that you use. As you do not regard us as Moderns freemasons, we do not regard you as a St John's, or an Ancient York Mason. As you have kindly pointed out, we also do not mean this as an attack on anyone, but simply a statement of fact.

We use the original form of Freemasonry, its structure, its regalia, its degrees, its Orders and its rituals. Your Masonic rituals are very new in comparison, dating as they do from c.1720/1730, devised and penned by Theophilus Desaguliers.

I can see from your original posting that you have not visited our website in any detail and I would encourage you to do so in order that we do not "boil our cabbages" here for a third time to the dismay of the majority here who are not Masons.

Do you know the ACTUAL history of The United Grand Lodge of England? How long have you been a member of the UGLE? Have you studied the subject, or are you simply happy with what you have been told? We were distinctly unhappy with the account that we were supplied with.

If you would like to engage in a debate and/or a friendly exchange of information and views on this issue, then please feel free to use my email: grandsecretary@btinternet.com

We must not use this Forum as a Masonic Forum. It exists for other reasons and you may have no fear that everyone on this Forum knows that WE do not speak for the UGLE, and the UGLE does not speak for US, perish the thought! Please see the disclaimer at the bottom of all of our postings.

In closing, may I say that we revived/reponed The Grand Lodge of All England strictly according to Law and Masonic practice and tradition, for the best of reasons, and we are very happy in our Ancient York (St John's) Masonrie which we consider to be the original, pure, and ancient form of the Craft here in England.

Peter Clatworthy

[grandsecretary]

What I disagree with also is that your organisation represents probably less than 1/1,000,000th of people world-wide who call themselves Freemasons. You are really a tiny, tiny Fringe group.

You then come on this Forum with your 'Grand' title and talk about Freemasonry as though you have some authority and people on here will believe it. I'm sure you have read some books on the subject and understand quite alot, but your organisation is not recognised by other Regular major Masonic entities World-wide.

You do not represent 99.999999% of Freemasons and I do not want anything you have to say on the subject to be seen as anything more than opinion.

What you want is of no concern to me or most other members here. My mother told me that what you want and what you get are two different things.

The FACT is that I am here, officially, to speak on behalf of The Grand Lodge of All England, the scope of which you have not a clue, and never will have.

And you are, Mr Loadsamembers? For all we know at this stage you are not a mason and possibly an agent-provocateur? You have already exhibited an ignorance of Mathematics (Freemasonry) by quoting a ridiculous percentage (99.999999%) without knowing the whole number (100%). Tut tut.

Shall we start there? How many Freemasons are there in England, and the rest of the World? How many of them are UGLE Masons? Sources and attributions please.

[grandsecretary]

Sorry again, unfair. The Duke, no less! - is only a Junior Warden in a local lodge of Moderns freemasons. His raw enthusiasm must be commended, and he will learn a great deal over the next 20 or 30 years or so, as we did before him.

Apart from our very comprehensive website, I have posted a reading list on the thread "Masonic beliefs and practices" and I strongly recommend it to him as a starter kit for the beginnings of his Masonic education.

[keystone]

Oh dear - another pointless internecine argument!

[grandsecretary]

Oh dear - another pointless internecine argument!

I agree, and that is why I have asked him to do some research elsewhere, pointed out that he is a very inexperienced freemason, and offered to discuss this issue, in depth, off line, providing my private email address. This is NOT a Masonic Forum, and it will bore me to death, as well as everyone else, if I keep having to fend off these uneducated propoganda attacks.

[keystone]

Actually the post was meant for both of you really.:)

[the_duke]

I agree, and that is why I have asked him to do some research elsewhere, pointed out that he is a very inexperienced freemason, and offered to discuss this issue, in depth, off line, providing my private email address. This is NOT a Masonic Forum, and it will bore me to death, as well as everyone else, if I keep having to fend off these uneducated propoganda attacks.

Again...you are trying to undermine my position by suggesting I am inexperienced. I am not the Grand Master, but then again I'm not just through the door...I lie somewhere in the middle!

You do not want to discuss it here because these are the only people who believe that you are a Fremason of elevated status...any REAL Freemasons can see you coming a mile off!

You are a Fraud my friend, you've started your own Grand Lodge so you are about as reliable as a Datsun Sunny! I do not wish to have you lecture me in why you believe that you are privy to some greater and older knowledge and why this qualifies you to start your own 'Grand Lodge'.

If this is not a Masonic Forum as you suggest, then stop talking about Masonic issues on here!

You, sir have been exposed as a Charlaton and have about as much veracity on Masonic issues as any nut on this Forum.

I'm not saying anyone on this forum should accept anything I have to say on Masonic issues...but they should definitely not accept what you say!

P.S. How about dropping the patronising tone and addressing what I have put to you, the people on this forum are not stupid, do not treat them as so!!!

[banoyes]

Again...you are trying to undermine my position by suggesting I am inexperienced. I am not the Grand Master, but then again I'm not just through the door...I lie somewhere in the middle!


Beginning,end and middle

[the_duke]

Again...you are trying to undermine my position by suggesting I am inexperienced. I am not the Grand Master, but then again I'm not just through the door...I lie somewhere in the middle!



I did consider this word in my message, but decided to put it in for comedy value to see what the 'nay-sayers' would come up with!!! for clarification this means to 'Sit'!

[banoyes]

I did consider this word in my message, but decided to put it in for comedy value to see what the 'nay-sayers' would come up with!!! for clarification this means to 'Sit'!
oh
so when i say you lie,what i mean is you sit
thanks , maison
you can go lie now

[the_duke]

oh
so when i say you lie,what i mean is you sit
thanks , maison
you can go lie now

Very astute input from you there...you have furthered the discussion beyond words!

[grandsecretary]

Again...you are trying to undermine my position by suggesting I am inexperienced. I am not the Grand Master, but then again I'm not just through the door...I lie somewhere in the middle!

You do not want to discuss it here because these are the only people who believe that you are a Fremason of elevated status...any REAL Freemasons can see you coming a mile off!

You are a Fraud my friend, you've started your own Grand Lodge so you are about as reliable as a Datsun Sunny! I do not wish to have you lecture me in why you believe that you are privy to some greater and older knowledge and why this qualifies you to start your own 'Grand Lodge'.

If this is not a Masonic Forum as you suggest, then stop talking about Masonic issues on here!

You, sir have been exposed as a Charlaton and have about as much veracity on Masonic issues as any nut on this Forum.

I'm not saying anyone on this forum should accept anything I have to say on Masonic issues...but they should definitely not accept what you say!

P.S. How about dropping the patronising tone and addressing what I have put to you, the people on this forum are not stupid, do not treat them as so!!!

"Undermine my position"?

[banoyes]

Very astute input from you there...you have furthered the discussion beyond words!
more so hi-lighting your lie and deception

[the_duke]

"Undermine my position"?

I wonder if the Grand Secretary of the United Grand Lodge of England, Captain Nigel Brown, spent all weekend on an fringe internet forum?

Probably not!?!

[banoyes]

I wonder if the Grand Secretary of the United Grand Lodge of England, Captain Nigel Brown, spent all weekend on an fringe internet forum?

Probably not!?!
I am sure he is compensated

[onourwayto2012]

Besides all the horseshit mumbo jumbo you have to wade through, it's amazing to me that men in this day and age will dress up in those outfits and go thru all this ritualistic crap..... which leads me to believe there IS something more to this than meets the eye.

[element]

Besides all the horseshit mumbo jumbo you have to wade through, it's amazing to me that men in this day and will dress up in those outfits and go thru all this ritualistic crap..... which leads me to believe there IS something more to this than meets the eye.

What could it be?

[grandsecretary]

I wonder if the Grand Secretary of the United Grand Lodge of England, Captain Nigel Brown, spent all weekend on an fringe internet forum?

Probably not!?!

I have not been here all weekend. On Saturday I spent the entire afternoon with my son at Lordswood Cricket School in Tadcaster. I coach at the school every Saturday afternoon throughout the Winter.

Today I had a very nice time walking in the fresh air here in the Yorkshire Dales, with my dog, followed by a pint of Yorkshire Bitter at my local pub. This evening I had dinner at a very fine restaurant in Harrogate with my younger son and his girlfriend. Whilst typing this I am watching the Cricket, Day 2, Test Match between Australia and South Africa.

Not a bad life really. I thoroughly enjoy the exchanges on the Forum and I do not denegrate others who do. IMHO it is important for the older generation, like us, to engage with young people, and this is a particularly good way of doing so.

I am happy that I can afford to do what I want to do, and do not have to ask anybody's permission. Fortunately I could afford to retire from business in 1990 and since my 42nd birthday I have enjoyed a very happy and carefree 18 years of freedom and financial independence.

Now, what did Nigel do on Saturday and today? I hope he gets a good night's sleep because he is up early for the office in the morning.

[keystone]

Probably busy pooping on the poop deck. You really know how to impress your fellow forum members. the_duke does not approve ladies and gentlemen. Do you hold your nose when you are up there? Doesn't the Captain find it a little uncomfortable? Never mind I am sure that your efforts will result in dark blue Petty Officer Duke.What on earth are you talking about? He was a pongo.

In any event this argument has nothing whatsoever to do with this forum is about, is therefore nonsesnse in this context and furthermore is demeaning to both of you.

[keystone]

and you are both miles off topic.

[grandsecretary]

Besides all the horseshit mumbo jumbo you have to wade through, it's amazing to me that men in this day and age will dress up in those outfits and go thru all this ritualistic crap..... which leads me to believe there IS something more to this than meets the eye.

Women are also accepted as freemasons by the Moderns form of freemasonry.

Statement issued by UGLE - 10th March 1999

There exist in England and Wales at least two Grand Lodges solely for women. Except that these bodies admit women, they are, so far as can be ascertained, otherwise regular in their practice. There is also one which admits both men and women to membership. They are not recognised by this Grand Lodge and intervisitation may not take place. There are, however, discussions from time to time with the women's Grand Lodges on matters of mutual concern. Brethren are therefore free to explain to non-Masons, if asked, that Freemasonry is not confined to men (even though this Grand Lodge does not itself admit women). Further information about these bodies may be obtained by writing to the Grand Secretary.

[grandsecretary]

What on earth are you talking about? He was a pongo.

In any event this argument has nothing whatsoever to do with this forum is about, is therefore nonsesnse in this context and furthermore is demeaning to both of you.

It is now clear that the anonymous person calling himself the_duke is an agent provocateur placed here by the UGLE in order to provoke opposition; obtain a ban; and to silence what it considers to be opposition. This has happened on other Masonic Forums and on Wikipedia.

Another Masonic poster here has sent me a private message which I appreciate and I will take notice of it.

No doubt this current agent has been promised a promotion, dark blue apron or some other type of reward for his efforts.

You will have seen that, because of this, I removed what you have now posted as a quote from me and replaced it with a more considered response.

I have now been made aware of what is taking place and will take this fully into account. keystone, I agree with you. I have asked him to desist on more than one occasion. You may have more influence on him than me. He is spoiling it for me as well, but I will NOT be harrassed and bullied by this person.

[the_duke]

It is now clear that the anonymous person calling himself the_duke is an agent provocateur placed here by the UGLE in order to provoke opposition; obtain a ban; and to silence what it considers to be opposition. This has happened on other Masonic Forums and on Wikipedia.

Another Masonic poster here has sent me a private message which I appreciate and I will take notice of it.

No doubt this current agent has been promised a promotion, dark blue apron or some other type of reward for his efforts.

You will have seen that, because of this, I removed what you have now posted as a quote from me and replaced it with a more considered response.

I have now been made aware of what is taking place and will take this fully into account. keystone, I agree with you. I have asked him to desist on more than one occasion. You may have more influence on him than me. He is spoiling it for me as well, but I will NOT be harrassed and bullied by this person.

You certainly are not a stupid man are you Peter! Divide and conquer! No, I am not placed here by anyone, I am far too insignificant for that...although many on this forum would be salivating at the thought and jumping on board your campaign as a result.

I am but a Mason who objects to you and your self imposed Grand titles. You are a Grand nothing....you are merely a Secretary! I want no ban, I want you to actually provoke discussion.

Why all the spin off you, why will you not discuss the issues?

Why do you keep removing messages? Stand by your guns my friend! Which Masonic poster on here sent you an email...produce this email please! I know two Masonic posters on here, neither of which have been on here in months and i'm sure they would have nothing bad to say about me!

You talk on this forum because you would be laughed off of any other Masonic forum!

[localidiot]

I am willing to bet my hat that The_Duke is here as a independant agent just as any Mason or member of this site is.
The gist of this seems to be more two men who are passionate about their points, more than a pureposeful plant.
S'far as you two can be civil to each other, I don't see a problem with a debate or discussion here, I'd find it something to learn from.

It should be worth noting that there or many beliefs about the origins of Masonry, from my understanding, both within and outside of the Organization. Seems a longstanding issue as well.

[91181]

Heres an idea why dont you all fuck off , us Icke readers know full well what your all about and your stuburn rigid answers to members questions about your Brotherhood of the dragon/death/snake/ect (call it what you want , i prefer Brotherhood of Apron wearing twats ) only prove my point..



Of course you wont see it this way as ye heads are so far up your rear ends all you see is darkness..

[localidiot]

Heres an idea why dont you all fuck off , us Icke readers know full well what your all about and your stuburn rigid answers to members questions about your Brotherhood of the dragon/death/snake/ect (call it what you want , i prefer Brotherhood of Apron wearing twats ) only prove my point..



Of course you wont see it this way as ye heads are so far up your rear ends all you see is darkness..
Yep, I can tell by the way you call others "Apron wearing twats" that you firmly have your head placed in a solid place.

[pinkfreud]

If this is not a Masonic Forum as you suggest, then stop talking about Masonic issues on here!

what i've been wondering myself. and at the risk of sounding like a stuck record, i'll say this yet again- tbh this shit is getting very boring to say the least, there's so much more out there to learn i don't understand why people spend time on here bickering amongst themselves.

[grandsecretary]

what i've been wondering myself. and at the risk of sounding like a stuck record, i'll say this yet again- tbh this shit is getting very boring to say the least, there's so much more out there to learn i don't understand why people spend time on here bickering amongst themselves.

Nobody is more bored than me by the constant attacks made on me and my employer. In response to the_duke I have pointed out in more than one thread here that this is NOT a masonic forum.

I do not wish to spend my time here fending off unfounded allegations, but I will NOT be bullied by this person, or his string pullers.

[kweli]

..although many on this forum would be salivating at the thought and jumping on board your campaign as a result.

You talk on this forum because you would be laughed off of any other Masonic forum!

You flatter yourself. In case you hadn't noticed, the majority of members on here don't give a toss for your petty squabbles.

And, this is NOT a masonic forum!




an agent provocateur placed here by the ? in order to provoke opposition; obtain a ban; and to silence what it considers to be opposition. This has happened on other Masonic Forums and on Wikipedia.



Yes, I believe that happens on this forum, although it's not generally Masons that are the targets. And, again.. this is NOT a masonic forum.

[keystone]

I do not wish to spend my time here fending off unfounded allegations,Whaaat? No more posts then - even in response to Ben? That's a shame.

.......................or his string pullers.Huff, puff then add a snide, unwarranted and probably libellous comment yourself. Stop it!

[keystone]

Heres an idea why dont you all fuck off , us Icke readers know full well what your all about and your stuburn rigid answers to members questions about your Brotherhood of the dragon/death/snake/ect (call it what you want , i prefer Brotherhood of Apron wearing twats ) only prove my point..But despite all this bravado and huffing/puffing you still read it! Why not just don't read it if you feel that way? Or do you have a morbid fascination for it?

[keystone]

You flatter yourself. In case you hadn't noticed, the majority of members on here don't give a toss for your petty squabbles.

And, this is NOT a masonic forum!


Quite!

[pinkfreud]

Nobody is more bored than me by the constant attacks made on me and my employer. In response to the_duke I have pointed out in more than one thread here that this is NOT a masonic forum.

I do not wish to spend my time here fending off unfounded allegations, but I will NOT be bullied by this person, or his string pullers.

you don't have to be bullied if you don't let it. i think the best way you, and everybody else on here (anti masons too) could lay this to rest is not pay heed to what some have to say about your character, your personal life et al. discussing a particular topic is cool but if someone resorts to rambling etc. you really don't have to pay attention to it and let the other person ruffle your feathers.

indulging them will only frustrate you, and that's what makes things go off on a tangent.




and before people on here slap me with the mason label, no i'm not.

[grandsecretary]

You flatter yourself. In case you hadn't noticed, the majority of members on here don't give a toss for your petty squabbles.

And, this is NOT a masonic forum!




Yes, I believe that happens on this forum, although it's not generally Masons that are the targets. And, again.. this is NOT a masonic forum.

I have agreed with you ever since I joined it. This is NOT a masonic forum and these words have appeared in at least a half a dozen of my responses but I will NOT be harrassed and bullied by people like the_duke and his masters.

[grandsecretary]

Whaaat? No more posts then - even in response to Ben? That's a shame.

Huff, puff then add a snide, unwarranted and probably libellous comment yourself. Stop it!

Oh no, your plan will fail here because the UGLE does NOT control this Forum. It is NOT a masonic forum.

Libelous? Here is my name and address.

Peter Clatworthy
Rivendell House
4/5 Holme View
Arthington
LS21 1PQ

I never refuse to sign for registered mail.

[keystone]

Oh no, your plan will fail here because the UGLE does NOT control this Forum. It is NOT a masonic forum.

What plan? Stupid blighter - I have no plan. You huff and puff and accuse whathisname of libel and threaten legal action then make an accusation which is that UGLE are directing his actions against you. That's a serious accusation, probably unwarranted and falls in exactly the same category IMO. You can't have your cake and eat it too. For heavens sake both of you just stop it or take it elsewhere.

Now you are huffing and puffing at me for pointing out the ludicrousness of this situation. Get over yourself.

[grandsecretary]

What plan? Stupid blighter - I have no plan. You huff and puff and accuse whathisname of libel and threaten legal action then make an accusation which is that UGLE are directing his actions against you. That's a serious accusation, probably unwarranted and falls in exactly the same category IMO. You can't have your cake and eat it too. For heavens sake both of you just stop it or take it elsewhere.

Now you are huffing and puffing at me for pointing out the ludicrousness of this situation. Get over yourself.

Yes, it is a serious accusation. I have suffered this for three years and I have drawn the line. You have my name and address.

[keystone]

Yes, it is a serious accusation. I have suffered this for three years and I have drawn the line.Take your persecution complex up with GQS then. This forum is not the place for stupid, pointless, internecine quarrelling.

[pinkfreud]

This forum is not the place for stupid, pointless, internecine quarrelling.


if you were here i'd buy you as many drinks as you wanted.

[grandsecretary]

Take your persecution complex up with GQS then. This forum is not the place for stupid, pointless, internecine quarrelling.

Then cut it out private message man. I am here to stay and I will discuss and debate the issues. I am NOT on your side here.

[keystone]

Then cut it out private message man.

Oh no thanks - last time I tried that you had an attack of righteous indignation, completely misread my message, posted my PM on the open forum and accused me of fomenting a conspiracy. I'm not taking that risk again.

[grandsecretary]

Oh no thanks - last time I tried that you had an attack of righteous indignation, completely misread my message, posted my PM on the open forum and accused me of fomenting a conspiracy. I'm not taking that risk again.

I have been warned, and I am accepting that advice. This is NOT a masonic forum. Cut it out.

[element]

This ís a masonic forum tbh. Officially it's Illuminati/Secret Societies, but if you look around 95% here is threads about Freemasonry. And isn't that a 'secret society'..?
I would say don't jump in between their quarrelling, they might just slip out vital information? Many different forms of Freemasonry, which is interesting. Is it war within Freemasonry?

[keystone]

I am here to stay and I will discuss and debate the issues.Good.

I am NOT on your side here.Who said anything about "sides"?

[pinkfreud]

Is it war within Freemasonry?

i'd be inclined to think so after reading this thread.

[keystone]

I would say don't jump in between their quarrelling, they might just slip out vital information? :)

Many different forms of Freemasonry, which is interesting.Indeed so. Always has been.

Is it war within Freemasonry?No only between individuals who are small minded enough to take the "my brand is better than your brand" line.

[grandsecretary]

Good.

Who said anything about "sides"?

You did in your private message. You might consider yourseves to be a "brand" but we do not. We are the pure and original form of Freemasonry. All others are cheap copies.

[grandsecretary]

This ís a masonic forum tbh. Officially it's Illuminati/Secret Societies, but if you look around 95% here is threads about Freemasonry. And isn't that a 'secret society'..?
I would say don't jump in between their quarrelling, they might just slip out vital information? Many different forms of Freemasonry, which is interesting. Is it war within Freemasonry?

Yes, and it has been going on for a long time, as witnessed here.

"Hence however, the Grand Lodge in London, from its Situation, being encouraged by some of the Principal Nobility of the Nation, arose at Great Power, and began to despise the origin from whence it sprang. In an unbrotherly manner, wishing the Gr. Lodge at York annihilated, which appears by one of their Almanacks, insinuating, that although there are some Brethren remaining, who act under the Old Constitution of York, yet that they are few in number, and will soon be annihilated. (SOURCE: Statement at York 1779)

The London Ale-house conspiracy failed then, and it will fail again.

[humito]

as usual masons hijack the thread with their claptrap and infighting and huge egos and self importance .............Its supposed to be about exposing famous ones who dont go public so what about OBAMA ??
http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/first-ever-masonic-inaugural-ball-to-be-held-for-obama/

[
Obama is a Freemason as confirmed by a fellow member:
PrinceHall06:
"Barack Obama is indeed a 32nd degree Prince Hall Mason. My source is having sat in open Lodge with Brother Obama.
sweftl337:
"Yes, he is a member of the Martinist order and also a Mason of another irregular lodge. He's completely bought and in the pockets of the Illuminati."
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread267286/pg2
__________________________________________________ ______________
Prince Hall freemasonry is for colored and perhaps other non-whites as thet are not permitted to enter into the regular Masonic "Temple".
Here´s a list of famous "Prince Hall" Masons, which include people like
Rev. Al Sharpton, Jurisdiction of New York, civil rights leader and
Rev. Jesse Jackson, Harmony Lodge No. 88, Chicago, Illinois

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/prince_hall/famous.html
__________________________________________________ ______________
From a black forum: http://www.longhaircareforum.com/for...d.php?t=199777
SB44:
"My grandfather became a politician in Jamaica before independence. When he was starting out he was advised to become a mason AND to convert to catholicism. He did both and was quite a success, but I find the connections unsettling."
__________________________________________________ ____________
Now the JEWS are calling Obama, "The Messiah":
Is Barack Obama The Messiah?
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/B...ma_the_messiah
The Obama Messiah Watch
http://www.slate.com/id/2158578/
Is Barack Obama the Messiah?
http://obamamessiah.blogspot.com/
__________________________________________________ ______________
Obama is the Antichrist?:
Barack Hussein Obama is the Antichrist. The number of the Beast is 666.

Barack: 6 letters
Hussein: 7 letters
Obama: 5 letters
6+7+5=18=6+6+6
QED

Take all permutations of 5,6,7 (3! = 6):
567
576
657
675
756
765
Sum them (3996), divide by total number: 3996/6=666
QED

Barack Hussein Obama was born in 1961=1998-37=666x3-666/(6+6+6).


;)

[pinkfreud]

as usual masons hijack the thread with their claptrap and infighting and huge egos and self importance .............Its supposed to be about exposing famous ones who dont go public so what about OBAMA ??
http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/first-ever-masonic-inaugural-ball-to-be-held-for-obama/

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_X7igbyFfqhw/SL9_GWZxz_I/AAAAAAAAAoE/mSWGPWl_-AY/s1600-h/Obamagod.jpg


Obama is a Freemason as confirmed by a fellow member:
PrinceHall06:
"Barack Obama is indeed a 32nd degree Prince Hall Mason. My source is having sat in open Lodge with Brother Obama.
sweftl337:
"Yes, he is a member of the Martinist order and also a Mason of another irregular lodge. He's completely bought and in the pockets of the Illuminati."
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread267286/pg2
__________________________________________________ ______________
Prince Hall freemasonry is for niggers and perhaps other non-whites as thet are not permitted to enter into the regular Masonic "Temple".
Here´s a list of famous "Prince Hall" Masons, which include people like
Rev. Al Sharpton, Jurisdiction of New York, civil rights leader and
Rev. Jesse Jackson, Harmony Lodge No. 88, Chicago, Illinois

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/prince_hall/famous.html
__________________________________________________ ______________
From a black forum: http://www.longhaircareforum.com/for...d.php?t=199777
SB44:
"My grandfather became a politician in Jamaica before independence. When he was starting out he was advised to become a mason AND to convert to catholicism. He did both and was quite a success, but I find the connections unsettling."
__________________________________________________ ____________
Now the JEWS are calling Obama, "The Messiah":
Is Barack Obama The Messiah?
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/B...ma_the_messiah
The Obama Messiah Watch
http://www.slate.com/id/2158578/
Is Barack Obama the Messiah?
http://obamamessiah.blogspot.com/
__________________________________________________ ______________
Obama is the Antichrist?:
Barack Hussein Obama is the Antichrist. The number of the Beast is 666.

Barack: 6 letters
Hussein: 7 letters
Obama: 5 letters
6+7+5=18=6+6+6
QED

Take all permutations of 5,6,7 (3! = 6):
567
576
657
675
756
765
Sum them (3996), divide by total number: 3996/6=666
QED

Barack Hussein Obama was born in 1961=1998-37=666x3-666/(6+6+6).


;)

interesting stuff there humito, thanks :)

[grandsecretary]

I agree that what has been going on here is way off topic. I do not intend to contribute to this thread any more. I have had my say in reaction to previous provocation, and I will only react if there is any further orchestrated provocation.

famous freemasons and eastern star exposed

[humito]

MASONIC SIGNALS IN THE MEDIA
We see them everyday in newspapers and magazines: pictures of men and women from
politics, economics and important institutions, which show mostly strange "hand
signals" .But few newspaper readers think about it, because these pictures do not say
anything to them; But they say to freemasons and other insiders very much. Who would let themselves be photographed time and times again in such a way? Already in the earliest youth children will be told, when one makes a photo with them, to take their fingers away from their face and to use no hand gestures. Thus why do politicians, economics and further personalities allow such photos of themselves to be made? Further ,which editor-in chief would picks the worst pictures out from the dozens of photos available, which upon careful observation, always show the same ugly gestures? But it has already its sense, because these hand signals, views and grasps are messages under "insiders". With these hand signals secret messages and instructions, are passed on mainly by signal photos in the press. In order that this code does not attract the attention of the average reader, the "insiders" use a whole set of harmlessly looking hand signals and gestures. Only those who understand this code, from newspapers and magazines will understand, what is really going on in politics, economics, culture and even in the sport.
Here are the 12 gestures of the freemasons, which are spread over the press:
http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/Masonry/Misc/Pix/electamason.jpg

http://deceiver.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/obama_pointing_small.jpg
1 pointing of the index finger in a photograph (the index near the eyes and near the mouth are distinct masonic signs. Pointing the index straight at the camera, is also a sign seen often in newwspapers.
2 the ubiquitous ok sign
3 the fist
4 making a pyramid with the forearms
5 the hand in play (holding an invisible ball with one or both hands) very common
6 the hand on the heart for no explained reason (like oath swearing etc)
7 masonic handshake (the thumb is seen turned downward and pressing the other person's knuckle)
8 eyes looking up for no explained reason (immitation of pictures of Jesus on the cross)
9 looking above the glasses in a picture
10 touching the glasses in a picture
11 hands on the nectie in a picture (distress signal)
12 hands on the neck (distress signal)

http://2008central.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/obama_2008_rumb.jpg

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/7166/obama2ev3.jpg

[keystone]

You did in your private message.[No I didn't and don't start that again.

You might consider yourseves to be a "brand" but we do not.No I do not. I consider myself to be a freemason. You also do and I acknowledge you to be so. whatisname says you are not. LiD says you are not. They are wrong because they are blinded by the jusrisdictional and recognition stuff. They are also freemasons as far as I am concerned.

We are the pure and original form of Freemasonry. All others are cheap copies.You are as bad as LiD and the_duke IMO. I don't care. This forum doesn't care. You are a freemason. So am I. I happen to come under a different GL. So what? I can choose tomorrow to resign my UGLE membership and join GloAE or LDH or GLF provided I meet their qualifications for membership. I can choose to stay where I am. It's my choice. All these individual GLs do is provide a framework for the individual to develop himself as a person and as a mason. It's up to the person to make that development or not as he chooses.

I'm fed up to the back teeth hearing people say "GloAE is fake masonry" or similar - it isn't. I'm equally fed up to the back teeth hearing you say "everyone else is a cheap copy of GloAE" or similar.

It's pretentious nonsense - all of it.

[grandsecretary]

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/Manpickingnose.jpg

Must be a Mason.

We do NOT use such hand signals. We DO use handshakes (properly called tokens) but only outside the door of the Lodge to determine who is and who is not entitled to entry to the Lodge.

Grand Lodge of All England at York

[keystone]

Here are the 12 gestures of the freemasons, which are spread over the press:

1 pointing of the index finger in a photograph (the index near the eyes and near the mouth are distinct masonic signs. Pointing the index straight at the camera, is also a sign seen often in newwspapers.
2 the ubiquitous ok sign
3 the fist
4 making a pyramid with the forearms
5 the hand in play (holding an invisible ball with one or both hands) very common
6 the hand on the heart for no explained reason (like oath swearing etc)
7 masonic handshake (the thumb is seen turned downward and pressing the other person's knuckle)
8 eyes looking up for no explained reason (immitation of pictures of Jesus on the cross)
9 looking above the glasses in a picture
10 touching the glasses in a picture
11 hands on the nectie in a picture (distress signal)
12 hands on the neck (distress signal)


Thats intriguing then. You have been taught about masonic signs in this life and a previous one according to another post you made . Is there not some issue here between what you have been taught and what you have posted above?

[grandsecretary]

No I didn't and don't start that again.

No I do not. I consider myself to be a freemason. You also do and I acknowledge you to be so. whatisname says you are not. LiD says you are not. They are wrong because they are blinded by the jusrisdictional and recognition stuff. They are also freemasons as far as I am concerned.

You are as bad as LiD and the_duke IMO. I don't care. This forum doesn't care. You are a freemason. So am I. I happen to come under a different GL. So what? I can choose tomorrow to resign my UGLE membership and join GloAE or LDH or GLF provided I meet their qualifications for membership. I can choose to stay where I am. It's my choice. All these individual GLs do is provide a framework for the individual to develop himself as a person and as a mason. It's up to the person to make that development or not as he chooses.

I'm fed up to the back teeth hearing people say "GloAE is fake masonry" or similar - it isn't. I'm equally fed up to the back teeth hearing you say "everyone else is a cheap copy of GloAE" or similar.

It's pretentious nonsense - all of it.

Then cut it out. LiD and the_duke are your fellows, not mine. END now.

[keystone]

Then cut it out. END now.Thats what I have been saying isn't it? Do I have no right of reply to you then when you have a pop at me for trying to stop the nonsense? No I don't want an answer to that. Finish then until you or others start again.

[humito]

I agree that what has been going on here is way off topic. I do not intend to contribute to this thread any more. I have had my say in reaction to previous provocation, and I will only react if there is any further orchestrated provocation.

famous freemasons and eastern star exposed

cool.thats fair enough.........there is too much aruement as to what constitutes masonry anyway........masons argue that certain gestures etc are not masonic ........which may be right for your particular brand.................however as i have said before all branches of masonry and indeed most occult and secret organisations base their rituals ,gestures etc on masonic lore ,so i would argue that they all fall under the umbrella of masonry and are indeed masonic............

once the language is understood by us 'profane' masses, we can see how masonic communication is carried out.............my guess ,although its pretty bloody obvious is that america has yet annother masonic leader ...........what a surprise.......:)

[keystone]

....I will only react if there is any further orchestrated provocation.You're still doing it.

[humito]

Thats intriguing then. You have been taught about masonic signs in this life and a previous one according to another post you made . Is there not some issue here between what you have been taught and what you have posted above?

not sure what you mean......? how do you feel about OBAMA/OSAMA?

[humito]

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/Manpickingnose.jpg

Must be a Mason.

We do NOT use such hand signals. We DO use handshakes (properly called tokens) but only outside the door of the Lodge to determine who is and who is not entitled to entry to the Lodge.

Grand Lodge of All England at York

lol bloody hell thats a disturbing pic lol.........:D

[keystone]

not sure what you mean......?Well you've been taught certain signs. Some of those you describe aren't masonic signs AFAIK.

how do you feel about OBAMA/OSAMA?Yes saw your other thread. I'm not inclined to believe the Youtube video at face value. Researching after which I'll be able to answer you.

[humito]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/january2005/220105sign1.jpg

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/01/21/2101bush7_gallery__425x550.jpg

http://www.steamshovelpress.com/images/laura.jpg


http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s115/BrothaJ_IMages/00bush3.jpg

http://i309.photobucket.com/albums/kk397/ddrake_2008/obama-devil-hand.jpg

http://educate-yourself.org/lte/bush_satan_5.jpg

[humito]

Well you've been taught certain signs. Some of those you describe aren't masonic signs AFAIK.

Yes saw your other thread. I'm not inclined to believe the Youtube video at face value. Researching after which I'll be able to answer you.

well IMO they are because as stated most secret/occult societies masonic offshoots have roots in freemasonry...........those in politics......satanism.......entertainment have their own codes.................as do street gangs etc.....

[keystone]

Disregarding OTO, S&B and all the other stuff peeps try and pretend is freemasonry (irrespective of any influences at creation) where in masonic ritual do you find that "horns" sign please? This is a genuine question because of anybody you should be able to clear this one up for all of us.

[element]

That handsign is suspicious, because they're all doing it.
But it's also a very natural handsign, using the outer fingers and putting the others back.

[keystone]

well IMO they are because as stated most secret/occult societies masonic offshoots have roots in freemasonry...........those in politics......satanism.......entertainment have their own codes.................as do street gangs etc.....Fair play. But theres always the argument about where Freemasnry originated. Some esoteric societies have older origins than some versions of the history of freemasonry say freemasonry has. Whatever that we can debate 'til the cows come home and still not reach a consensus.

So I'd just like to concentrate on what you and I recognise as freemasonry without any offshoots.

[keystone]

That handsign is suspicious, because they're all doing it.They are all doing it because everyone is doing it and they can't be seen to be left out? Is that a plausible explanation?

But it's also a very natural handsign, using the outer fingers and putting the others back.Indeed.

[element]

They are all doing it because everyone is doing it and they can't be seen to be left out? Is that a plausible explanation?


I don't know, but it's similar to the hand on the chest, what many influential people did in the 19th,early 20th centuries.

While I am not in favor of bible sites, this is interesting.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/codex_magica/codex_magica04.htm

[keystone]

I don't know, but it's similar to the hand on the chest, what many influential people did in the 19th,early 20th centuries.As indeed they did the hand tucked in the waistcoat one.

While I am not in favor of bible sites, this is interesting.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/codex_magica/codex_magica04.htmWhilst I'm not in favour of Mr Marres one iota I'll have a look as I havn't for some considerable time.

[humito]

the horns sign is not one of accepted freemasonry !!!!!!!!!!!............however it can be linked to freemasonry for reasons previously stated.........its not a sign that any ordinary masons will recognise however............a few 33 degree masons who are chosen by the illuminati and initiated into the order of orion will use it ......IMO

[disconnex]

as usual masons hijack the thread with their claptrap and infighting and huge egos and self importance .............Its supposed to be about exposing famous ones who dont go public so what about OBAMA ??
http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2009/01/03/first-ever-masonic-inaugural-ball-to-be-held-for-obama/



That link is interesting, though I think it is just a lodge trying to profit off of the inauguration. I live in Baltimore City and people are renting their houses out for thousands of dollars and going on vacation in case civil unrest follows shortly after. Though it is interesting to see a lodge sell a night of brotherhood for $120, hey does that include the wife?


Obama is a Freemason as confirmed by a fellow member:
PrinceHall06:
"Barack Obama is indeed a 32nd degree Prince Hall Mason. My source is having sat in open Lodge with Brother Obama.
sweftl337:
"Yes, he is a member of the Martinist order and also a Mason of another irregular lodge. He's completely bought and in the pockets of the Illuminati."
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread267286/pg2


That link is also good. As we see here, most masons can't even tell if the lodge they belong to are real or not, yet they are quick to debunk the fact that certain people aren't "members" at all.

[keystone]

the horns sign is not one of accepted freemasonry !!!!!!!!!!!............Thank you exactly what I thought.

however it can be linked to freemasonry for reasons previously statedYes I take the point but the link seems a bit tenuous really.

.........its not a sign that any ordinary masons will recognise however............Which is, of course, why I and others say it isn't masonic when certain posters i the past have insisted it is.

a few 33 degree masons who are chosen by the illuminati and initiated into the order of orion will use it ......IMOAs indeed would those who are chosen but not 33 degree freemasons?

[humito]

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/codex_magica/images/fcodex_31.jpg

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/images/black%2520hands%2520prez%2520seal.jpg&imgrefurl=http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/2008/05/stereotypes-of.html&usg=__mv6rH_k5oXOfscIbfug_hbE4hOE=&h=339&w=600&sz=33&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=TggBOoOAfwqyuM:&tbnh=76&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmasonic%2Bring%2Bobama%26um%3D1%26hl% 3Den%26sa%3DG whats with the meaning of these black hands on the presidential seal ???????..........look closley and see a masonic ring

[keystone]

That link is interesting, though I think it is just a lodge trying to profit off of the inauguration. I live in Baltimore City and people are renting their houses out for thousands of dollars and going on vacation in case civil unrest follows shortly after. Though it is interesting to see a lodge sell a night of brotherhood for $120, hey does that include the wife?I tend to think the same thing but suspect that it isn't a "profit" motive - it's a have a good time motive and any extra we raise over and above costs will go to charity.

That link is also good.Interesting anyway.

As we see here, most masons can't even tell if the lodge they belong to are real or not, yet they are quick to debunk the fact that certain people aren't "members" at all.That's not quite accurate although I can see how you have drawn that conclusion.

[thelonious]

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/codex_magica/images/fcodex_31.jpg

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/images/black%2520hands%2520prez%2520seal.jpg&imgrefurl=http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/2008/05/stereotypes-of.html&usg=__mv6rH_k5oXOfscIbfug_hbE4hOE=&h=339&w=600&sz=33&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=TggBOoOAfwqyuM:&tbnh=76&tbnw=135&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmasonic%2Bring%2Bobama%26um%3D1%26hl% 3Den%26sa%3DG whats with the meaning of these black hands on the presidential seal ???????..........look closley and see a masonic ring

The ring is Islamic, not Masonic. It is the crescent moon and star, the symbol of Islam. Malcolm, of course, was a Muslim, so this isn't very surprising.

[keystone]

The ring is Islamic, not Masonic. It is the crescent moon and star, the symbol of Islam. Malcolm, of course, was a Muslim, so this isn't very surprising.I think he's driving at the facial resemblence. The pic in the link is a different matter though. Thats clearly a masonic ring. But why? Whats the motivation with whoever produced the pic? is it:

1. Pro Obama
2. Anti Obama
3. Neither

[stewart edwards]

Geepers creepers, you leave the computer for a day and things get wierd. Let me recount a true story, it is relevant.

Try to imagine me some years ago now, before I got into masonic forums, standing in the dark cold car park of a pub after a ufo meeting chatting with the club owner. We had moved on from ufos to trying to make sense of life. I postulated and philisophiocally asked why there were no institutions in society there to help you find your way? Clearly with masons in my family back home in Scotland, and with me being professionally qualified as well as knowing a lot of tradesmen, Freemasonry was something that I had some knowledge off, but I did not tie it into with guiding those who are on the path of self knowledge etc. It took me many years to pierce through all of the darkness and cr@p to find that what my heart desired was indeed to be held within the Masonic world, but its light seemed almost entinguished as freemasonry seems to have embrased the profane world at the expense of its core essence.

I am sure that I am going to regret saying this without checking first, so please correct me if I get this totally wrong (seriously please do) but is it not in the Book of the Judges somewhere that if you dont lead an ethical life based on your core values, darkness/disaster will inevitably follow? This has happened in my opinion in the Masonic world just as it did in the records of The Judges. It is a fundamental truth of life, applicable to you, me, Freemasonry, Governments, organisations of every type.

So my point, Freemasons one and all, make a profane man happy. Inspire, illuminate, rise above the darkness of daily life and be there for lost people standing in car parks realising that they have an itch but dont have a clue how to scratch it, and discounting Freemasonry because what they have seen does not accord with their heart.

It is about time that all freemasons demanded that more effort be placed into Masonic standards (and I dont mean the dressing I mean the substance). Just as day follows night, if you do this reillumination will be just around the corner and it will appear once again.

Go on make an obese, Scottish, triathlete, pain in the ass happy.

With the exception of correcting me if I have erred on my bible comment, please resist any temptation to respond back. Fight this demon and reflect for at least 24 hours.

Just my personal opinions to try to help you move forwards.

[grandsecretary]

The ring is Islamic, not Masonic. It is the crescent moon and star, the symbol of Islam. Malcolm, of course, was a Muslim, so this isn't very surprising.

I agree. Islamic ring, not Masonic. I cannot find any record of Malcolm X as having been a Freemason although Louis Farrakand is recorded as a Prince Hall Mason.

[keystone]

I agree. Islamic ring, not Masonic. I cannot find any record of Malcolm X as having been a Freemason although Louis Farrakand is recorded as a Prince Hall Mason.The ring he's talking about is on the website via the link not the one on the image in the post.

[grandsecretary]

The ring he's talking about is on the website via the link not the one on the image in the post.

The photograph on the link is a masonic ring. Sorry if I confused anything.

[the_duke]

I have agreed with you ever since I joined it. This is NOT a masonic forum and these words have appeared in at least a half a dozen of my responses but I will NOT be harrassed and bullied by people like the_duke and his masters.

I'm actually quite bored with this argument now, I thought my thread would inspire serious debate on the subject, but it never seemed to work!!!

Who knows, maybe the future will be a place where two separate Grand Lodges can live in harmony with each other, each with their own type of Freemasonry. That is what I actually wanted to discuss!

I admit, I did jump on you and your Lodge a bit, but you got quite patronising and arsey back.

I think we should agree to disagree! I think we, and this Forum will get much more out of us discussing Freemasonry from our perspective, maybe with a bit of banter thrown in, but not with animocity and arguments.

P.s. I am here as a Freemason representing no one other than myself and the only string-pulling is from my wife!

[limelady]

P.s. I am here as a Freemason representing no one other than myself and the only string-pulling is from my wife!

Lol....does she pull you round by your Masonic apron string then Duke? :D



(sorry, couldn't resist). ;)

[banoyes]

I'm actually quite bored with this argument now, I thought my thread would inspire serious debate on the subject, but it never seemed to work!!!

Who knows, maybe the future will be a place where two separate Grand Lodges can live in harmony with each other, each with their own type of Freemasonry. That is what I actually wanted to discuss!

I admit, I did jump on you and your Lodge a bit, but you got quite patronising and arsey back.

I think we should agree to disagree! I think we, and this Forum will get much more out of us discussing Freemasonry from our perspective, maybe with a bit of banter thrown in, but not with animocity and arguments.

P.s. I am here as a Freemason representing no one other than myself and the only string-pulling is from my wife!
Who gives a fly fart about
"the future will be a place where two separate Grand Lodges can live in harmony with each other, each with their own type of Freemasonry. That is what I actually wanted to discuss!"
Only deluded maison
Take this crap to a maison site, here is the disagreement
the cowan,the profane and the common people know
Freemasonry is the scourge of the earth
and freemasons lie about everything

[the_duke]

Who gives a fly fart about
"the future will be a place where two separate Grand Lodges can live in harmony with each other, each with their own type of Freemasonry. That is what I actually wanted to discuss!"
Only deluded maison
Take this crap to a maison site, here is the disagreement
the cowan,the profane and the common people know
Freemasonry is the scourge of the earth
and freemasons lie about everything

Banoyes,

As long as this says Illuminati/Secret Societies on the top and people continue to discuss Freemasonry on here...so will I! The trouble with a Masonic site is it is only Freemasons, especially from UGLE, so the chances of getting a balanced debate on the subject of alternative Grand Lodges would be quite remote.

Anything else of worth you'd like to contribute...or have you finished?

[grandsecretary]

Banoyes,

As long as this says Illuminati/Secret Societies on the top and people continue to discuss Freemasonry on here...so will I! The trouble with a Masonic site is it is only Freemasons, especially from UGLE, so the chances of getting a balanced debate on the subject of alternative Grand Lodges would be quite remote.

Anything else of worth you'd like to contribute...or have you finished?

Thank you very much for this response the_duke. I really appreciate its content. From now on, I am very hopeful that we wll be able to make a positive contribution from our own sincerely held, but seperate perspectives.