The Skeptics Perspective

[barbitone]

I wasn't sure where to post this topic so general will do.

I've just been scanning over all the skeptics side of things because I always like to see things from all angles. I'd like to be able to say that they seem analytical and non-bias, but from what I've seen this doesn't so much seem to be the case. They're pretty disappointing. Personally, I'm always ready to hear some good points opposed to popular conspiracy theory. I just want the truth, not just the explanation of reality that best fits comfortably in my ego mind.
It must be a bleak world for the mind of a fully fledged skeptic. :(

It wouldn't shock me if I found out that some of these major skeptics are in fact
freemasons or some form of Illuminati operatives. If course they would outright scream "paranoid!" or whatever at that suggestion....
I was looking though the "Skeptics Dictionary" and found this on David Icke.


David Icke

David Icke, another pundit of the Illuminati, believes humans have been getting messages from alien "Illuminati-reptilians" for thousands of years. The reptiles explain such things as the Gregorian calendar.

The whole senario [sic] was planned centuries ago because the reptilians, operating from the lower fourth dimension, and indeed whatever force controls them, have a very different version of "time" than we have, hence they can see and plan down the three-dimensional "time"-line in a way that those in three-dimensional form cannot.*

Icke fancies himself "The most controversial author and speaker in the world."* For him, the origin of the Illuminati is extraterrestrial. He knows this because he is sure we have been contacted regularly with messages from beyond by the alien lizards. He explains it all in several books, especially The Biggest Secret: The Book That Will Change the World.*

I mean, look at it. That's it? Pathetic. They don't even put forward any reasons as to why this is all obviously crazy....it's just assumed I guess.

And like this part "Icke fancies himself "The most controversial author and speaker in the world." I've never heard him proclaim to be anything except a free spirit, infinite consciousness. Other people may consider this of him but that doesn't make him sound crazy enough I guess!

Don't get me wrong I'm not taking stabs at skeptics as such, they're pretty funny most of the time. It's just a bit sad that they don't open up they're freqeuncy range a bit more......

Well, that's my rant for now.;)

[auron]

The hardcore 5 sensors I call them. :D

[friendsinthesky]

There are many legit skeptics, I know some and they argue well, even ask great questions, BUT, many skeptics who have media access should be looked upon with two eye's open.

[winstonsmith]

This one really kills me. Disinformation at it's finest:

----------------------------------------------------------------

From www.publiceye.org

David Icke and the Politics of Madness: Where The New Age Meets the Third Reich

by Will Offley
February 29, 2000


On the face of it, few people would credit a retired soccer player who rants about a world takeover by blood-drinking lizards from outer space as being much of a threat to democracy. And as a general rule, they would probably be right.

David Icke, however, is an exception to that rule.

Icke, 48, is a native of Leicester, England. For five years he played professionally for the Coventry City and Hereford United soccer teams until forced to retire by arthritis. He subsequently went on to become a sports announcer for BBC-TV. For three years from 1988 to 1991 he was national spokesperson for the British Green Party, until he began a political evolution that was to begin with his expulsion from the Greens and wind up with his current involvement with anti-Semitism, neofascism, and lizards from Mars.

At first this evolution seemed relatively harmless. Icke began to flirt seriously with New Age theories, and then began to act on them. He dressed in turquoise, and began to call himself the "son of godhead". But by the time his book "The Robot's Rebellion" was printed in 1994, his trajectory had begun to take quite a different course. In 1996, the British magazine "Left Green Perspectives" wrote that this book "indicated a convergence of New Age thinking with Nazi philosophy". Casting aside his pat concerns about the environment, Icke enthusiastically embraced the classic Nazi conspiracy theory, alleging that the world is controlled by a secret cadre of "The Elite." He openly endorsed The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the Tsarist anti-Semitic forgery that informed Hitler's notion of a global Jewish conspiracy."

The following year Icke brought out another book, "...and the truth shall set you free." This one, however, was self-published, as its content was so objectionable that his publisher refused to have it printed. And small wonder. The book repeated Icke's previous claims that the Protocols were true, and went on to state: "I strongly believe that a small Jewish clique which has contempt for the mass of Jewish people worked with non-Jews to create the First World War, the Russian Revolution, and the Second World War....They then dominated the Versailles Peace Conference and created the circumstances which made the Second World War inevitable. They financed Hitler to power in 1933 and made the funds available for his rearmament."

In this book, Icke went even further. He began to flirt explicitly with Holocaust denial, saying "why do we play a part in suppressing alternative information to the official line of the Second World War? How is it right that while this fierce suppression goes on, free copies of the Spielberg film, Schindler's List, are given to schools to indoctrinate children with the unchallenged version of events. And why do we, who say we oppose tyranny and demand freedom of speech, allow people to go to prison and be vilified, and magazines to be closed down on the spot, for suggesting another version of history." He also denounced the Nuremberg Trials as "a farce" and "a calculated exercise in revenge and manipulation."

Icke's politics today are a mishmash of most of the dominant themes of contemporary neofascism, mixed in with a smattering of topics culled from the U.S. militia movement. He has written diatribes on the Illuminati, the Council on Foreign Relations and the Trilateral Commission as examples of secret plots to take over the world. He opposes gun control as a plot by this Elite, which has deliberately orchestrated numerous mass shootings to whip up opposition to guns. He has repeatedly posted anti-abortion literature and articles on his web site. He rails against conspiracies to implant microchips in everyone's bodies, coded with the Satanic number "666". He even accuses the U.S. government of carrying out the Oklahoma City bombing and murdering 168 men, women and children.

For a decade Icke has exhibited signs of serious mental instability. In his web site autobiography he reveals that as early as 1990 he became aware of "a presence around me, like there was always someone in the room when there was not. It got to the point where I sat on the side of the bed in a hotel room in London in early 1990 and said to whoever or whatever: "If you are there will you please contact me because you are driving me up the wall." A year later, on holiday in Peru, Icke describes hearing voices: "as I looked at the mound, a voice in my head began to say: "Come to me, come to me, come to me.... Suddenly I felt my feet pulled to the ground again like a magnet, the same as in the newspaper shop, but this time far more powerful. My arms then shot above my head, with no decision by me for them to do so.... A flow of powerful energy began to go into the top of my head like a drill, and I could feel the flow going the other way up from the ground through my feet. It was then I heard the third voice in my head, something that has never happened since. It said very clearly: "It will be over when you feel the rain".

Over the last year Icke's writings have become so paranoid and so extreme that many are probably inclined to dismiss him as posing any sort of threat, or requiring a response. Icke is now arguing in all seriousness that the Illuminati plot to take over the world is actually being carried out by a race of extraterrestrial reptiles in human form. They are described, literally, as being child-sacrificing, blood-drinking Satan-worshippers capable of changing their shape, whose ranks include George Bush, Bill and Hilary Clinton, Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mum, Bob Hope and Kris Kristofferson, among others.

David Icke is not alone. He is a small industry in a large and lucrative market of often well-to do New Age boomers. He has several web sites, an e-magazine, his own publishing house, and at least 9 books and 4 videotapes to his credit. He is constantly on the road, touring North America, Europe, Australia, South Africa, the Pyramids, and elsewhere. In the last five years he has spoken in Vancouver as many times, and across Canada he can turn out substantial audiences. His organizers claim he had 1,000 people out to hear him at his last gig in Vancouver, and he hopes to fill the Vogue Theatre on March 19. It's a large milieu that can afford the hefty prices Icke charges - up to $67 to attend a lecture, forty to fifty dollars for videotapes - and that generates a sizeable income for Icke and his message of conspiracism, fear and hate.

To organize all this, Icke has developed an international network of people who work with him and for him. They book the dates, churn out the posters and press releases, do the advance work, pick him up at the airport, get him to the hotel, introduce him, and get him back to his flight on time. They also show clearly why David Icke is a dangerous man, because they underscore his politics in an unmistakable way.

Icke is undeniably a flake, and a world-class flake, but his danger comes from his alliances as well as his politics. And it's the far right who handle this man, who package and promote and present his message across Canada and around the world.

Take Joseph Duggan. Duggan is the proprietor of Strong Eagles Productions, the company organizing Icke's current Vancouver speaking engagement. Duggan makes his living in part from organizing B.C. speaking engagements for a string of conspiracy theorists and famous personalities of the extreme right like Glen Kealey, Cathy O'Brien, Len Horowitz and others. Duggan also used to be the health editor of Shared Vision until last year, which has itself advertised tours by Icke and hosted speeches by him as well. Interspersed with monthly columns on health foods and natural healing, Duggan's writings in Shared Vision also promoted the far right anti-government activist Murray Gauvreau, Colorado militia supporter Suzanne Harris, and the notorious Glen Kealey.

In March 1997, Duggan's column referred extensively to the book "War Cycles, Peace Cycles" by American writer Richard K. Hoskins. Hoskins has been denounced as "a virulent anti-Semite who is a leading ideologue of the Christian Identity movement" by no less a source than Conrad Black's National Post. When Aryan Nations member Buford Furrow was arrested in Los Angeles last August after shooting and wounding five people at a Jewish community centre and murdering a Filipino postal worker, police found a copy of "War Cycles, Peace Cycles" in his car.

Icke's books and videos are also distributed by an organization in Salmon Arm, B.C. called The Preferred Network. The Preferred Network's web site advertises at least four of Icke's books and the same number of videotapes, as well as an extensive selection of U.S. and Canadian conspiracy materials covering the traditional themes particular to the far right: the government coverup of the Oklahoma City bombing, "The 10 Secrets Revenue Canada Doesn't Want You To Know", "Humanity's Extraterrestrial Origins", the AIDS coverup, the Ebola coverup, the Lockerbie coverup, the PanAm 800 coverup, "Satanism And The CIA", and Kari Simpson's expose of the gay agenda in B.C. schools.

David Lethbridge, director of the Salmon Arm Coalition Against Racism, has described the organizer of The Preferred Network in the following way: "a well-attended demonstration opposing the Multilateral Agreement on Investment was held [in the spring of 1998] in Salmon Arm, B.C.... Working the fringes was Wes Mann, organizer of the Preferred Network. Mann was handing out flyers for conspiracy advocates David Icke, Ted Gunderson and Cathy O'Brien. Whenever he could, Mann would strike up a conversation with one of the demonstrators, then write down their name and phone number. I knew who Mann was. His Preferred Network catalog carries several dozen books and tapes promoting the usual New Age fare: cancer cures, spiritualist prophecies, UFO tales and so on. But much of the catalog consists of materials promoting right-wing militias and right-wing conspiracy theories, and books by notorious fascists and antisemites such as Eustace Mullins. I went over to Mann, who did not recognize me, and began to question him. Within minutes he was telling me that the MAI was the work of a conspiracy organized by the mysterious "Black Nobility" and the "International Bankers". The anti-Jewish code words were obvious. Soon Mann was telling me that the antisemitic forgery The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion was authentic, that the Nazi Holocaust had never occurred, that the contemporary Jews were not Jews at all but descendants of the Turkish Khazars, and that the fascist Eustace Mullins was "a brilliant researcher".

In Ottawa, Icke's key organizer is Tom J. Kennedy. Kennedy was responsible for much of the organizational detail of Icke's October 1999 speaking tour in Ottawa, Toronto, and Windsor, Ontario, also acting as his gofer and driver. But Kennedy's activities do not stop there. He is an active supporter of Canada's DeTax movement, a far right current that imitates the tax-resistance strategies of the Freemen and other Christian Patriot groups in the U.S. Kennedy's web site also promotes Glen Kealey's conspiracist workshops, and other similar endeavours. And his politics become even clearer when one reads the materials Kennedy has posted on the internet over his own name. On January 18, 1999, he posted an article attacking usury [a favourite code word among the far right for the international Jewish Bankers Conspiracy]. He had originally found this article on a British web site, and liked it so much he reposted it to his own list. The British group that had written the article, Final Conflict, is one of Britain's hard-core neo-nazi groups, whose web site carries articles entitled "Did Six Million Really Die" and slogans reading "Long Live Death." Four months later, on May 6, 1999 Kennedy posted an article on secret societies he had picked up from the Hoffman Wire. The Hoffman Wire is a far-right Holocaust denial organization based in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, not far from the headquarters of Aryan Nations.

Kennedy's web site now carries an article "Fear NOT - The Ultimate Label "Anti-Semitic", which clarifies his endorsement of Icke's politics: "I have always been motivated to find out the real reasons why particular researchers and historians get targeted with the ultimate label "Anti-Semitic" and other lesser labels such as "Neo-Nazi" and "Racist" Needless to say, I was motivated to follow the information in search of reasons why David Icke was being so labelled during his Ontario `99 tour.... Perhaps the unfair labelling of researchers as "Anti-Semites" has a hidden agenda to keep people from seeking the "truth?" Or could this whole "Anti-Semitic" labelling be another "divide and conquer" deflection to keep us busy while the real 10,000 year agenda of the Freemasons and Bilderbergers is being completed? Just wondering??" In probability, the labelling of Tom Kennedy as anti-Semitic might have more to do with his stated support for Holocaust denier David Irving ("a meticulous historical researcher"), or with his pal Ernst Zundel, who told Kennedy in the early 1980's "Tom, you are writing about the usurious money system which reaps the Financial Elite multiple millions annually. What you are writing about is even more sacred than "the holocaust", so be very careful for your well-being!!"

David Icke's associations with the extreme right are not confined to Canada, nor are they only a recent phenomenon. One of the most ominous instances of this was documented in an article in the London Evening Standard concerning Icke's 1995 speaking tour of Britain to promote his newest book, The Robot's Rebellion. Journalist Mark Honigsbaum reported that "what worries the Jewish community most is that Icke's veiled anti-Semitic references are now attracting the attention of more sinister British forces, in particular Combat 18, the neo-Nazi group which recruits among football's violent hooligan fringe. The Jewish Chronicle has reported how Combat 18 has taken to publicizing Icke's current tour in its internal journal, Putsch. Citing Icke's recent lecture in Glastonbury, Putsch claimed that Icke "spoke of "the sheep" and how the Zionist-operated government, sorry, "Illuminati", uses them for its own ends." The Combat 18 report continued: "He began to talk about the big conspiracy by a group of bankers, media moguls, etc. - always being clever enough not to mention what all these had in common".

Combat 18 is fascist. The numbers do not stand for "eighteen" but for "one - eight", the first and eighth letters of the alphabet. A and H, as in Adolph Hitler. C18 was for much of the 90's the most important and the most violent organization in the British neo-Nazi movement, with a number of murders to its credit. C18 has now fallen on hard times. Its main leader, Charlie Sargent, is serving a life term for the first degree murder of one of his own followers, and the group itself promptly split in two over a bitter struggle over finances; but none of this prevented it from carrying out two bombings in black and Bangladeshi neighbourhoods in London last summer, or of being suspected in the bombing of a gay pub that killed two and sent 60 people to hospital. Such are David Icke's friends and associates.

Despite this record, Icke enjoys a surprising degree of support from unexpected quarters. Connie Fogal, married to the long-time leftie alderman Harry Rankin, has had her organization, the Defence of Canadian Liberty Association, set up a literature table at one of Icke's appearances. Paul Hellyer's Canada Action Party also had a table at Icke's last Vancouver speech. Icke is listed as a contributor to the supposedly left-wing tabloid The Radical, published in Quesnel and distributed widely throughout B.C. And Icke's tours have been advertised in local New Age publications like Shared Vision and Common Ground.

The fact is that some of what Icke says has a resonance in these quarters. He's against world conspiracies, free trade, the MAI, the WTO and corporate globalism. Many of his far right supporters are active in other areas as well: cannabis legalization, alternative health, anti-corporate activism, even support for native sovereignty struggles like Gustavsen Lake. It's long overdue for the left, the environmental movement, feminists, anti-WTO activists, lesbians and gays, and yes, even New Agers, to start looking more closely at Icke and his friends. The advocates of Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism will seldom if ever reveal their real agenda. They prefer to work in the shadows, using coded language, building patiently for a new and improved Reich. The threat they pose is no less real simply because it doesn't register on the radar screen. Yet.

All we need to do is look at Austria to see why these politics have to be confronted, isolated and defeated, and the price we will all pay if they are not.

[auron]

Yeah! I remember reading that one ages ago. Funny Isn't how far people will go to discredit someone! :D

[barbitone]

Wow, that's gotta be some kinda record!:D

Disturbing....:(

[barbitone]

When you look at winstonsmith's post and then this from the P.R.A ......



Incisive Research for Social Change
Mission Statement

Political Research Associates is a progressive think tank devoted to supporting movements that are building a more just and inclusive democratic society. We expose movements, institutions, and ideologies that undermine human rights.
Goal

Political Research Associates seeks to advance progressive thinking and action by providing research-based information, analysis, and referrals.
PRA’s Core Values

* We conduct research of the highest quality and methodological rigor, and are committed to making our research and analysis readily available and accessible.

* Our work is even-handed, fact based, reliable, and not over-dramatized (Yeeaahhh.....). Our commitment to mutual respect means that in our work, we do not caricature or demonize the followers of right-wing organizations, and we recognize the abilities of the movement's leadership.

* Our integrity demands that we speak the truth as we perceive it without fear or favor, and remain independent of forces that would stifle this voice. (oookkkaayyyy....)

* PRA’s progressive analysis and critique derives from a deep desire to understand and eliminate the root causes of oppression; in this sense PRA prefers to work with social movements with a fundamental systemic analysis rather than organizations tied to partisan politics.

* PRA believes that in order to be a truly effective organization we “must become the change we seek.” To this end, PRA is committed to fostering mutual respect and exhibiting anti-oppressive behaviors in all aspects of what we do--internally among our staff, leadership, and Board, and externally with our allies and opponents.

* We believe that an open and democratic society depends on a rich tapestry of voices and perspectives. (Reeeealy....) To ensure this, we see a need to amplify marginalized voices. These values are deeply grounded in PRA’s feminist roots.

* We remain open to change and growth, and to new ideas (doesn't seem like it), content and approaches in the service of our mission.



hmmmmm....:rolleyes:


What dimension are we in again? Will Offley's document doesn't even sound like he's talking about the same person, if you know anything about David. These guys are suspect!

[winstonsmith]

They are definitely suspect. No doubt they're part of some secret Illuminati disinformation operation. If they actually held any of those values, they would support David Icke, but instead they portray him to be the complete opposite of what he is. Aren't these people subtle? :rolleyes:

The funniest thing is people will actually believe it and then ridicule and demonise people that know what he's really about and support him, without even doing any research of their own...

[barbitone]

They've even got phony links and shit! Check it:


From "The Public Eye" website

"List of Famous Satanists, Paedophiles And Mind Controllers",
David Icke web site: http://www.davidicke.com/icke/articles/listsatan.html
Others on this list include Bill and Hillary Clinton, Lord Mountbatten, Mikhael Gorbachev, Bob Hope and Kris Kristofferson.

None of the article links work and they're all bullshit. And they tampered with direct link to the davidicke.com website by adding a > at the end!

Unbelievable.

[synergy777]

look we believed the corrupted teachings when we were kids, were told not to question, blind faith. so now we are expected to the do the same with this alternative, great, real progress that, one opposame for another.

most of this spirtual stuff is cool, nice reading, great feel good stuff, but thats it. in this real world, it don't do much does it. then all this listen to your inner voice, instinct, soul whatever. that little voice is ego, listen to it. come on how many peeps after getting into this stuff, start thinking am i neo, am i the one, am i here to save, unite etc. has all my life been geared towards this, they start turning random incidents/coincidences etc into a convienent case for saviourship.

if you desire something, you will ultimately have a warped/biased view, and will purposely put things together to support your desire/aim, hence accuracy is compromised. its like biased researchers/writers, or selective editing to support an agenda. ao all the data we look at has to undergoe balanced, objective analysis, and not simply taken as truth.

its dangerous all this just be-lie-ve, the have blind faith in an an entity that does not have human features eg emotions, caring etc. wheres his help for the sufferers, what a few words, prayers, is that it? wheres his compassion for the people, killed daily, genocide, war, murder.

i think we need to have a more objective, accurate approach, as the whole fate, destiny, mystic side of life is too intangible etc.


If you are there will you please contact me because you are driving me up the wall." Icke describes hearing voices: "as I looked at the mound, a voice in my head began to say: "Come to me, come to me, come to me.... Suddenly I felt my feet pulled to the ground again like a magnet, the same as in the newspaper shop, but this time far more powerful. My arms then shot above my head, with no decision by me for them to do so.... A flow of powerful energy began to go into the top of my head like a drill, and I could feel the flow going the other way up from the ground through my feet. It was then I heard the third voice in my head, something that has never happened since. It said very clearly: "It will be over when you feel the rain".


i mean sometimes if one is intellectually independant, one could view great teachers as paranoid, narcassistic, deluded pariahs. maybe these people were mental, illusions of self grandeur, the voice in their heads, being mental disorders. see we don't really know do we, maybe the elite knew they were charasmatic anti establishment deviants/misfits and thus used them for their agenda. no offence who told these teachers they special, they did. no tests, no evaualtion, checking the accuracy of their teachings. see the only real way is logical, scientific way, and even that is plagued by human faults/perception/intellectual ability. if yashuah returned today, he would be locked up in a mental asylum.

see the conspiracy movement is flawed, very flawed. the elite know it, and hence are not threatend by it. we have such a mish mash of inaccurate data, supported by inaccurate researchers. i mean look at this astral travelling/lucid dreaming crap. its merely a mental function, and people label it as soul work. i have dreams of weird places, bullshit saying i am the one, etc. its all narcasstic, arrogant mental projection.

i could believe it, my ego wants to believe it, but thankfully the logical side prevails and see's it for what it really is, a biological/chemical/mental function. that is derived from thoughts, data, etc all filtering/swishing around my head. its not divine, spiritual but simply a mental function. a biological, chemical brainstorm/roleplay, thats it.

we need to be skeptics in order to find the truth, only then can we free ourselves from mental/spirtual slavery. the desire to accept this info as a pancea is too great and clouds our thinking. the need for an answer overides our ability to test fairly.

the more skeptics the better.


Casting aside his pat concerns about the environment, Icke enthusiastically embraced the classic Nazi conspiracy theory, alleging that the world is controlled by a secret cadre of "The Elite." He openly endorsed The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the Tsarist anti-Semitic forgery that informed Hitler's notion of a global Jewish conspiracy."


this is wrong, a jewish cartel, zionist, bankers are all a part of the elite/nwo. there are muslism eg wahabbis that help the nwo, there are christians eg british israel that help the nwo. this whole race purity has roots in brahmin priesthood (flavius jospehus, contra apinon, chapter 1, verse 22, origin of jews, not hebrews). then icke overlooks vedic global culture (celts, romany, etc), asiatic dna in europeans and believes the aryan from mars crap (max muller, blvatsky). when aryan was culture idigeneous to india. he fails to see the fallen/reptiles as the same thing. he talks about yashuah, sol invictus, but dosn't talk about the real yashuah, and says all religion is reptillian, when its been highjacked/corrupted by reptillians, not created. holocaust denial is wrong, sure the numbers were exaggerated to support a political agenda, but financial statistcis are edited to support the economy, its a gibbon, we are talking politricks. the fact is aremenians, romanies, jews, were killed, genocide, like in palestine today.

jews, muslims, christians, everyone is one race, family, we should stick together, stand with eachother, not pander to elitest doctrines that elevate us above one another, selling our souls for 30 pieces like judas. as for chosen ones, messiah crap, ask yourself, rather conspicous by their absence aren't they, these chosen ones, here to unite, free us all, where are they? waiting, while others suffer. i think deep down this messiah ploy is a trick to get us apathetic, why bother, just wait for these all loving, all knowing fearless people, my arse. if i ever met them, i'd hit, give stick to the wonderful saviours, sitting on their arse whilst they could do good, just as bad as politicans, clergy in my view.

see you need a holistic approach, question everything, see everything, angles, connections etc.don't fall for the politcal ploys, the opposames etc.don't fall for religous ploys, all false, as logic surely proves one creator.don't fall for race theories, research shows migration, linguistics, genetics, as we being one adpated race.

see i am indian, my ancestors were african, my peoples migrated out and became europans, i think no one is higher, chosen, we are all one race, made the same way, by the same creator. our adaptions are biological differences, due to climate/pigmentation, breeding/migrations, diet/nature etc. if the same species of an animal can have different adadptions, why can't we, do we not procreate, the same way. are we not born in the same way. also the whole race theories fall down, why, well isn't our soul what really matters, aren't these just biological spacesuits, vessels, thus temporary. so why argue about the bodywork, when the source of power/life is the same, soul, love.

see if we shed our cultural prejudices, mainstream indoctrination and look at life simply, absent of the static of false doctrines, the answers are so simple, so clear. true research helps, but research is needed for any endeavour.


one creator, one people, one love, its as simple as that.

[adramelech]

Most "skeptics" you find loudly trouncing about in these fields of research are not true skeptics at all, but rather pseudoskeptics or "debunkers". Debunking is a disinformation and counterintelligence technique popularized by the US government. Essentially it's based on the defense of a psychological worldview and strong denial, but it's nothing new. An article in a MUFON journal once stated "debunking has been with us since the first debunker laughed at the man who decided to move out of the cave".

Marcello Truzzi on pseudoskepticism:

http://www.anomalist.com/commentaries/pseudo.html

The tendency to deny, rather than doubt
Double standards in the application of criticism
The making of judgments without full inquiry.
Tendency to discredit, rather than investigate.
Use of ridicule or ad hominem attacks.
Presenting insufficient evidence or proof.
Pejorative labeling of proponents as 'promoters', 'pseudoscientists' or practitioners of 'pathological science.'.
Assuming criticism requires no burden of proof.
Making unsubstantiated counter-claims.
Counter-claims based on plausibility rather than empirical evidence.
Suggesting that unconvincing evidence is grounds for dismissing it.
Tendency to dismiss all evidence.

The rise of civilian "debunkers" or pseudoskeptics is due strongly to the media's ability to not only make scientific theory, method and reductionism seem like absolute, untouchable approaches to information and the grounds for sweeping worldviews, but to permanently associate "science" in the mind of the average person with "intelligence" or "reason", even when Scientism is often quite the opposite. It's a very effective technique based on the single most effective weapon in the human aresenal - ridicule.

[synergy777]

the most important thing is to critically think, the latest clones off the education manufacturing line, don't. they have been conditioned to believe, to not question. debunking, like you have pointed out is very good way of trolls etc to work, when someone is getting close to a truth, truths. the personal attacks etc being a very good example.even though we have clashed, you are at least an original thinker. cool post, ian2day did a great post of the intellectual side to this, last week i think.

[supertzar]

Marcello Truzzi

Adra, he used to come over to our house when I was a kid. I was a little scared of him. He was my dad's colleague at the university, a "Demonologist." Since my dad was way into the "Sociology of the Arcane and Esoteric," they were naturally friendly to begin with. I think they had sort of a falling out, maybe. We still have some issues of 'The Zetetic Scholar' around. I have heard not so good things about him in recent years from those in the know.

On skepticism: Yes, there is a tremendous amount of misunderstanding on what skepticism is. I consider myself one of the biggest skeptics I know, but also one of the most open-minded. This is not a contradiction.

[adramelech]

True skeptics are the most open-minded people on the planet.

"‘Swoopy’, the presenter of Skeptic Magazine’s podcast, tells us that you are a sceptic ‘if you think that a lot of the things that you see on the TV and the media are just wrong, and if you think that you’re getting the wrong message from pretty much everything all around you and your voice isn’t being heard’."

Unfortunately, the very nature of pseudoskepticism and debunking is designed to entrap these individuals in another belief system all their own.

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/1884/

"Debunking" is, essentially, the far opposite counterpart to the New Age movement. Both are meant to control the thoughts, ideas and information of people that naturally lean towards being "awake" and questioning of reality by feeding them whichever "side" they most believe in, swaying them from a truly objective agnostic view.

[sidewinder]

I went to lecture regarding 'alternative healing' a few years ago, it was brought by a professor in philosophy, and he's a big member of the Belgian sceptic group. He told the audience that none of the healings worked, though he talked for the main part about homeopathy, and a litte about acupuncture and urine therapy. When the lecture ended, I asked him a question about an article in the newspaper about a guy who had some kind of muscle disease, and he went to some Asian healer to literally 'pull' his muscles straight, something Western doctors couldn't/wouldn't do. The article described he's doing fine, he's able to walk again. The professor asked me if I had any proof of this story, I said "the article is my source". He then returned my answer by saying "it could be made up", thus backing-up his lecture about alternative healing, without actually going into the subject. His tone wasn't polite at all, rather aggresive, like it didn't matter someone asked him a question. Even another subject, stretching, doesn't do anything according to him as he stated: "did you ever see a horse stretching it's muscles?". Brilliant comparison really... thousand of years of KungFu/martial-arts (muscle)training right down the garbagebin.

[adramelech]

When the lecture ended, I asked him a question about an article in the newspaper about a guy who had some kind of muscle disease, and he went to some Asian healer to literally 'pull' his muscles straight, something Western doctors couldn't/wouldn't do. The article described he's doing fine, he's able to walk again. The professor asked me if I had any proof of this story, I said "the article is my source". He then returned my answer by saying "it could be made up"

This is a common reaction. The core of any belief system is denial and this is especially true of Scientism. Debunkers will use any and all justifications necessary to defend what they believe to be valid or invalid. Like New Agers who see the astral forces of spirit dimensions in their trip to the grocery store, debunkers attempting to reduce every single fragment of the cosmos into coldly rational, supralogical explanations fully comprehendable by the human mind must make increasingly large leaps of faith to support the view. The basis is that only what we can see, observe, quantify and comprehend is "real". When confronted with information that challenges this, especially from colleagues or others in their own thought process, the ultimate response will always be denial.

[space monkey]

True skeptics are the most open-minded people on the planet.

"‘Swoopy’, the presenter of Skeptic Magazine’s podcast, tells us that you are a sceptic ‘if you think that a lot of the things that you see on the TV and the media are just wrong, and if you think that you’re getting the wrong message from pretty much everything all around you and your voice isn’t being heard’."

That's pretty much how I feel. It's like the jokes about the nihilist who doesn't believe in anything - not even nihilism. I find this to be st times incredibly freeing and at other times utterly crushing.

Unfortunately, the very nature of pseudoskepticism and debunking is designed to entrap these individuals in another belief system all their own.

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/1884/

"Debunking" is, essentially, the far opposite counterpart to the New Age movement. Both are meant to control the thoughts, ideas and information of people that naturally lean towards being "awake" and questioning of reality by feeding them whichever "side" they most believe in, swaying them from a truly objective agnostic view.

I've been looking at this stuff (conspiracy theory ect.) for about three or four years now on and off, but devoting much more time to it now, and in the last year or so I've observed how utterly reactionary I have been at times, just as you have been describing. I have learnt to understand when my knowledge of something may not actually be sufficiant enough to pass judgement on it, LOL. So in place of actuall knowedge of something, I'v learnt to instead be wary of the reactionary in myself and people, whether what they are saying is valid or not. And so that may not be as rewarding as a quick witty condemnation (for the ego anyway) in the form of a definitive answer (or close enough), it does leave one free to go to the real truth (or an approximation thereof, LOL).

[space monkey]

I went to lecture regarding 'alternative healing' a few years ago, it was brought by a professor in philosophy, and he's a big member of the Belgian sceptic group. He told the audience that none of the healings worked, though he talked for the main part about homeopathy, and a litte about acupuncture and urine therapy. When the lecture ended, I asked him a question about an article in the newspaper about a guy who had some kind of muscle disease, and he went to some Asian healer to literally 'pull' his muscles straight, something Western doctors couldn't/wouldn't do. The article described he's doing fine, he's able to walk again. The professor asked me if I had any proof of this story, I said "the article is my source". He then returned my answer by saying "it could be made up", thus backing-up his lecture about alternative healing, without actually going into the subject. His tone wasn't polite at all, rather aggresive, like it didn't matter someone asked him a question. Even another subject, stretching, doesn't do anything according to him as he stated: "did you ever see a horse stretching it's muscles?". Brilliant comparison really... thousand of years of KungFu/martial-arts (muscle)training right down the garbagebin.

Yeah, it could have been. Fine. Shall we now look at how it might be true? Eh?

[space monkey]

the most important thing is to critically think, the latest clones off the education manufacturing line, don't.

But the clones off the line in some before time, you're saying they were free-thinkers?

[sidewinder]

Yeah, it could have been. Fine. Shall we now look at how it might be true? Eh?
What are you trying to say? I don't know whether your tone is sarcastic or polite.