Is there an afterlife?

[whatistruth]

Alright boffins, lets get this sorted once and for all, is there an afterlife?

We need documentries, links, thoughts, analysis, all of it.


LETS GET THIS SORTED. :mad::mad::mad:

:)

[knightbk]

Nope.

When you die, that which is YOU (your consciousness) dies with you and that is that.

There is no proof at all that there is a spirit, soul or anything else that lives on.

The only thing that lives on is the basic elements that are in your body, which go on to form new organisms or just sit in the earth while your body decomposes.


Its sad really but when you stop and think about it, the second you lapse into death, you will not know you lived, so there will be nothing to be sad about right. Sadness is something you will only know while alive, but after you die, as I said, you will simply exist in the minds of others as a memory, until they are gone and you are forgotten.

Think of it this way:
Do you really think somebody who died 1000 years ago cares that he is dead? No, because he cant. He is dead. It doesn't matter to him what sort of life he lived, how he died, etc, etc. He is gone. Our memory of him is gone. He may as well have never lived.

As for there being "life after death", there is absolutely NO proof of that that can be scientifically verified.




We've made up Religions because it comforts us and adds some meaning to life. Those that hate religions make up other "new age" type scenarios, but the brutal fact is that there is NO scientific fact that backs up that there is a life after death.


Its really sad, but as I said, as soon as you die, your conscious will cease and you wont care either way, just like those dead before us do not care if they lived a good or bad life or whatever. They are dead. Its over. Done. Finito.


If believing in the Bible, Allah, Re-incarnation, etc, etc makes life easier to bear, then go for it, but in the end, there is no proof for these things, just the statements that people make, which in 100% of cases can never be proven.

[size_of_light]

It is not more surprising to be born twice than once

- Voltaire

[patrish]

http://www.near-death.com/

the above link gives you something to think about.

I personally know that there is an afterlife

much love

Patrish xxx

[wabbitpoo]

is there an afterlife?

No

[haukipesukone]

There is no proof at all that there is a spirit, soul or anything else that lives on.


There's also no proof that there isn't. And how do you know there's no proof? I beg to differ on that one.

There's no proof I didn't have my way with your anus last night when you were sleeping, either.


The reason I don't think it's merely over when you die is that it would be too easy. Too easy to escape all your problems by death. Die and reach heaven. It cannot be that simple.

(In case some of you didn't catch my point, non-existence is heaven.)

[knightbk]

There's also no proof that there isn't. And how do you know there's no proof? I beg to differ on that one.

There's no proof I didn't have my way with your anus last night when you were sleeping, either.


The reason I don't think it's merely over when you die is that it would be too easy. Too easy to escape all your problems by death. Die and reach heaven. It cannot be that simple.

(In case some of you didn't catch my point, non-existence is heaven.)

First, I can guarantee you didn't have your way with my anus.

Second, when people say something exists, the onus is on them to prove it.
Ie- I can say I screwed your momma last night but unless I prove it, it didn't happen.

Third, wishing for something to be true doesn't make it true.

[haukipesukone]

Second, when people say something exists, the onus is on them to prove it.
Ie- I can say I screwed your momma last night but unless I prove it, it didn't happen.


First, that's the way main stream science handles things, and I don't really believe in it. Second I can formulate it different. You can't prove that the non-existence of the spirit/soul is existent.

There, now the burden of proof lies on you.

In reality we know many things without any conclusive evidence. Such as the lack of me having anything to do with your anus.


Third, wishing for something to be true doesn't make it true.

Are you sure? And I didn't say I wish for it to be so. I didn't say anything about wishing anything so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

[zen_fox]

It would depend on your version of life. If by afterlife this implies angels playing harps floating on clouds, then I would say no. That doesn't happen.

Obviously, anything whatsover which is in any way connected to your body or your cellurar growth does not continue in its current form. I fail to see how anyone could retain memories, emotions, personalities, or sex when death occurs.

Which brings up the question, what is death? Many humans define death as the moment at which permanent loss of consciousness occurs. However, a biologist will deny this completely and state that death does not occur until all cells within the body cease to live. This can happen hours, days, or years after the conscious life of a person is gone.

There are no scientists which deny life after death. They deny only the degree in which life would continue. Generaly speaking it is a well accepted idea that nothing is created nor destroyed yet only perpetually and unalterably changes forms from one to next. It is the degree of energy within the body which is questioned.

Do you keep memories? No. Will you meet loved ones? No. Will you even be aware of your existence? Most people aren't aware of their existence now. Can anything in this life affect anything after you die? My magic 8 ball says Highly Unlikely.

Death is infinite expansion. Just as the light which soars through the cosmos is soaring into infinity so to will the energy within earch of us expand into everything. Every atom in our bodies was forged in the furnace of the sun and it's going back their wheather we like it or not.

:):):)

[size_of_light]

Second, when people say something exists, the onus is on them to prove it.



Prove that consciousness dies.

[skyver]

Nope.

When you die, that which is YOU (your consciousness) dies with you and that is that.

There is no proof at all that there is a spirit, soul or anything else that lives on.

The only thing that lives on is the basic elements that are in your body, which go on to form new organisms or just sit in the earth while your body decomposes.


Its sad really but when you stop and think about it, the second you lapse into death, you will not know you lived, so there will be nothing to be sad about right. Sadness is something you will only know while alive, but after you die, as I said, you will simply exist in the minds of others as a memory, until they are gone and you are forgotten.

Think of it this way:
Do you really think somebody who died 1000 years ago cares that he is dead? No, because he cant. He is dead. It doesn't matter to him what sort of life he lived, how he died, etc, etc. He is gone. Our memory of him is gone. He may as well have never lived.

As for there being "life after death", there is absolutely NO proof of that that can be scientifically verified.




We've made up Religions because it comforts us and adds some meaning to life. Those that hate religions make up other "new age" type scenarios, but the brutal fact is that there is NO scientific fact that backs up that there is a life after death.


Its really sad, but as I said, as soon as you die, your conscious will cease and you wont care either way, just like those dead before us do not care if they lived a good or bad life or whatever. They are dead. Its over. Done. Finito.


If believing in the Bible, Allah, Re-incarnation, etc, etc makes life easier to bear, then go for it, but in the end, there is no proof for these things, just the statements that people make, which in 100% of cases can never be proven.

Sorry to inform you but... There is indeed an afterlife!

[knightbk]

First, that's the way main stream science handles things, and I don't really believe in it. Second I can formulate it different. You can't prove that the non-existence of the spirit/soul is existent.

There, now the burden of proof lies on you.

In reality we know many things without any conclusive evidence. Such as the lack of me having anything to do with your anus.



Are you sure? And I didn't say I wish for it to be so. I didn't say anything about wishing anything so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

The burden of proof doesn't lie with me at all.

The OP asked if a Afterlife Exists, to give a positive response, you must prove that it exists. You can not create something out of nothing.


I can say the Easter Bunny exists, but that doesn't make it so unless I can prove that there is an Easter Bunny.

I can say Santa Claus exists and brings Presents to Children on Christmas Eve but again, unless I can prove it, it doesn't make it so.

I can say that there is a Asteroid heading for earth that may kill us all, and while that may be the case simply due to chance, I still have no proof that this is going to happen.



If an Afterlife exists, it can be proven. Until then, it is only an unproven theory.

We do know that at death, the body decomposes. We have no idea if a spirit or soul exists.

For there to be an afterlife, you have to prove that there is something else in our body that can exist after death.

That has not been done yet. I hope it is proven some day, but so far, it has not been and people saying "yes it exists" is the same as me telling you 1000 years ago that the Earth is Flat or that the sun goes around the planet or that the Sun is a chariot in the sky.

As of Dec 11, 2008, there is no absolute proof to say that there is an Afterlife. We only have conjecture, belief, faith, hearsay, opinions, etc.

That is not proof.


Saying that we will find out when we die is sort of ridiculous as well. If we die and there is no afterlife, then our consciousness ends and we no longer even know we asked the question or care what the answer is or was.

If there is an afterlife and its governed by Heaven and Hell and conflicting Religions, and we go to "hell" for not believing them, then that is just as sad.

I don't know what exists after death and I would love for their to be something, but I need a little bit more than "just trust me" as a reason to put my faith in that. People believe a lot of things and a lot of it turns out to be false. The question of life and death is the ultimate question and wanting an afterlife to be true doesn't make it so.

[illuminati downfall]

I most certainly believe there is an afterlife. I have seen enough in my life to convince me that there is one. It's also just a feeling on inner knowing which I think to be just a step above faith.

No, I don't have any certain proof of the fact that we go on somewhere after we die. I can't show you any source of certain proof that our loved ones who have died are indeed in an afterlife somewhere. No one could ofter true definite proof. No matter what is found, it could in theory be picked a part and many things could be explained away in one way or another. I rely on a sense of faith to tell me what will happen when my lifetime here is over and done with. My sense of faith, and belief tells me that when it's over, it isn't really over at all. It seems that many people want to feel that if you can't prove it, it's not worth considering.

[knightbk]

It would depend on your version of life. If by afterlife this implies angels playing harps floating on clouds, then I would say no. That doesn't happen.

Obviously, anything whatsover which is in any way connected to your body or your cellurar growth does not continue in its current form. I fail to see how anyone could retain memories, emotions, personalities, or sex when death occurs.

Which brings up the question, what is death? Many humans define death as the moment at which permanent loss of consciousness occurs. However, a biologist will deny this completely and state that death does not occur until all cells within the body cease to live. This can happen hours, days, or years after the conscious life of a person is gone.

There are no scientists which deny life after death. They deny only the degree in which life would continue. Generaly speaking it is a well accepted idea that nothing is created nor destroyed yet only perpetually and unalterably changes forms from one to next. It is the degree of energy within the body which is questioned.

Do you keep memories? No. Will you meet loved ones? No. Will you even be aware of your existence? Most people aren't aware of their existence now. Can anything in this life affect anything after you die? My magic 8 ball says Highly Unlikely.

Death is infinite expansion. Just as the light which soars through the cosmos is soaring into infinity so to will the energy within earch of us expand into everything. Every atom in our bodies was forged in the furnace of the sun and it's going back their wheather we like it or not.

:):):)


You evade the question.

Obviously, "we" continue on in some form. "Ashes to Ashes and Dust to Dust" is a good reference for that, or if you are so inclined, being eaten by a tiger and then being pooped out at some point.


Prove that consciousness dies.

What we know is that Consciousness is in your brain and caused by the millions of chemical reactions that occur in your brain every second. This is of course tempered by memory.

We also know that by doing different things to people's brains, we can totally change who they are. Memories can be removed, personalities can be changed, etc, etc.

WHO you are can change in an instant, but when the blood flow to the brain stops, you die, and thats that.

If there is some form of consciousness that lives on after death seperate from the body, we have no way of detecting it.

However, is that consciousness aware of who you were before?
If so, then why are memories lost in people?

If memories are lost but some lesser energy force just floats away, then is that in effect no longer you?

I mean, you are your memories are you not? If you take all of that away and just leave a little ball of light there that is totally devoid of anything you were, then it really isn't you.

You may as well just say you "live on" in with whatever your body becomes a part of (the tiger eating you).

[size_of_light]

What we know is that Consciousness is in your brain and caused by the millions of chemical reactions that occur in your brain every second. This is of course tempered by memory.

Sure about this?

[anthony65]

The burden of proof doesn't lie with me at all.

The OP asked if a Afterlife Exists, to give a positive response, you must prove that it exists. You can not create something out of nothing.


I can say the Easter Bunny exists, but that doesn't make it so unless I can prove that there is an Easter Bunny.

I can say Santa Claus exists and brings Presents to Children on Christmas Eve but again, unless I can prove it, it doesn't make it so.

I can say that there is a Asteroid heading for earth that may kill us all, and while that may be the case simply due to chance, I still have no proof that this is going to happen.



If an Afterlife exists, it can be proven. Until then, it is only an unproven theory.

We do know that at death, the body decomposes. We have no idea if a spirit or soul exists.

For there to be an afterlife, you have to prove that there is something else in our body that can exist after death.

That has not been done yet. I hope it is proven some day, but so far, it has not been and people saying "yes it exists" is the same as me telling you 1000 years ago that the Earth is Flat or that the sun goes around the planet or that the Sun is a chariot in the sky.

As of Dec 11, 2008, there is no absolute proof to say that there is an Afterlife. We only have conjecture, belief, faith, hearsay, opinions, etc.

That is not proof.


Saying that we will find out when we die is sort of ridiculous as well. If we die and there is no afterlife, then our consciousness ends and we no longer even know we asked the question or care what the answer is or was.

If there is an afterlife and its governed by Heaven and Hell and conflicting Religions, and we go to "hell" for not believing them, then that is just as sad.

I don't know what exists after death and I would love for their to be something, but I need a little bit more than "just trust me" as a reason to put my faith in that. People believe a lot of things and a lot of it turns out to be false. The question of life and death is the ultimate question and wanting an afterlife to be true doesn't make it so.


"As of Dec 11, 2008, there is no absolute proof to say that there is an Afterlife. We only have conjecture, belief, faith, hearsay, opinions, etc.

That is not proof."

You need absolute proof?

If you don't have absolute proof then it doesn't exist?

How ignorant.

How arrogant.

How unscientific.

How typical of the lie that is modern aetheistic science. What we can not prove with our instruments and techniques does not exist!

How primitive!

How stupid!

What a lie! They do believe in a lot of stuff that they claim to dismiss. They pour massive amounts of money into "scientific research" and if the results fit their agenda they then announce their findings to the world.

What previously "did not exist" now does exist because our scientists tell us so.

Science as religion.

Scientists as God!

Lets consider a few points...

1: Name me a culture anywhere in the world that did not believe in the afterlife until the birth of modern western aetheistic thought?

2: How do you account for this belief spread across every culture in history?

3: All of the so called "primitive" societies "discovered" by Westerners in the past centuries have had a very strong belief (and intereaction) with the spirits of their ancestors and other spirits they believe in.

4: You mention hearsay and opinions. You don't mention "experience". There are millions and millions of experiences that exist, but of course you would not accept the veracity of any of them. Of course, we can't be expected to simply accept everything without question, but the parallels are often amazing. Most important to me are the personal stories that I have heard from people who I trust as wtinesses of certain events as well as some of my personal experiences which have also convinced me of the existence of an after life.

One example (connected to the suicide theme in another thread)....

**You will probably dismiss this, but it may be interesting for others... **

Someone I trust as a solid witness reported this story (last year I think).

A schoolgirl complained to her parents that she was being followed around by the ghost of a man. The man was bloody in appearance. He didn't threaten her, but she was scared of him. The parents discussed this with the schoolteacher. The teacher asked the girl if the man was there. She said yes. The teacher asked if the man could speak. the girl said yes. The girl asked the man who he was and where he lived. He told her. They went to the address and discovered that the man had met a violent death (suicide I think, not sure) not long before. The parents took the girl to church. The ghost did not enter the church. The parents approached a spirit medium who arranged for the "ghost" to be encouraged to move on. This worked!

I don't ask you to believe this, but I know of several similar stories, and this seems to be even more commonplace in the past years as children are being encouraged to "play" with the occult.

[keystone]

Alright boffins, lets get this sorted once and for all, is there an afterlife?Yes. How do I know this? I've no idea. Intuition? Gut feeling? Perhaps. I'll find out in due course and if any of you are left I'll try and find a way to let you know. No promises mind.

We need documentries, links,.....How?

[knightbk]

"As of Dec 11, 2008, there is no absolute proof to say that there is an Afterlife. We only have conjecture, belief, faith, hearsay, opinions, etc.

That is not proof."

You need absolute proof?

If you don't have absolute proof then it doesn't exist?

How ignorant.

How arrogant.

How unscientific.

How typical of the lie that is modern aetheistic science. What we can not prove with our instruments and techniques does not exist!

How primitive!

How stupid!

What a lie! They do believe in a lot of stuff that they claim to dismiss. They pour massive amounts of money into "scientific research" and if the results fit their agenda they then announce their findings to the world.

What previously "did not exist" now does exist because our scientists tell us so.

Science as religion.

Scientists as God!

Lets consider a few points...

1: Name me a culture anywhere in the world that did not believe in the afterlife until the birth of modern western aetheistic thought?

2: How do you account for this belief spread across every culture in history?

3: All of the so called "primitive" societies "discovered" by Westerners in the past centuries have had a very strong belief (and intereaction) with the spirits of their ancestors and other spirits they believe in.

4: You mention hearsay and opinions. You don't mention "experience". There are millions and millions of experiences that exist, but of course you would not accept the veracity of any of them. Of course, we can't be expected to simply accept everything without question, but the parallels are often amazing. Most important to me are the personal stories that I have heard from people who I trust as wtinesses of certain events as well as some of my personal experiences which have also convinced me of the existence of an after life.

One example (connected to the suicide theme in another thread)....

**You will probably dismiss this, but it may be interesting for others... **

Someone I trust as a solid witness reported this story (last year I think).

A schoolgirl complained to her parents that she was being followed around by the ghost of a man. The man was bloody in appearance. He didn't threaten her, but she was scared of him. The parents discussed this with the schoolteacher. The teacher asked the girl if the man was there. She said yes. The teacher asked if the man could speak. the girl said yes. The girl asked the man who he was and where he lived. He told her. They went to the address and discovered that the man had met a violent death (suicide I think, not sure) not long before. The parents took the girl to church. The ghost did not enter the church. The parents approached a spirit medium who arranged for the "ghost" to be encouraged to move on. This worked!

I don't ask you to believe this, but I know of several similar stories, and this seems to be even more commonplace in the past years as children are being encouraged to "play" with the occult.



There was a man here once who told people his family was killed in an car accident and he needed help because he had turned into an alcoholic and was down on his luck, etc, etc. People helped him out, gave him money, cheap apartment to live in, etc, etc. He was a really nice guy. Later on we found out he was a fugitive on the run who took a new name and had conned most of us.

Now, I don't know if your story about the little girl is true or not, but I do know that this world is full of plenty of people who lie and cheat, especially in this media driven "15 minutes of fame" age. Forgive me for having skepticism, but its hard to just believe things like that when we hear of so many of these types of incidents turning out to be lies or schemes later on.

As for Ancient Cultures believing in spirits, just because they think they were interacting with Spirits, doesn't make it so. In fact, most (all) of these things usually do not hold up when it comes under any scrutiny.


It is the same thing with UFO's. We have plenty of sightings, pictures, videos, etc, etc, but NO actual solid evidence that really can hold up to scrutiny that these things ARE aliens or from another world and I say that having experienced some definite UFO activity myself, but even I can not say that what I saw is not just some classified government project or whatever.

[anthony65]

There was a man here once who told people his family was killed in an car accident and he needed help because he had turned into an alcoholic and was down on his luck, etc, etc. People helped him out, gave him money, cheap apartment to live in, etc, etc. He was a really nice guy. Later on we found out he was a fugitive on the run who took a new name and had conned most of us.

Now, I don't know if your story about the little girl is true or not, but I do know that this world is full of plenty of people who lie and cheat, especially in this media driven "15 minutes of fame" age. Forgive me for having skepticism, but its hard to just believe things like that when we hear of so many of these types of incidents turning out to be lies or schemes later on.

As for Ancient Cultures believing in spirits, just because they think they were interacting with Spirits, doesn't make it so. In fact, most (all) of these things usually do not hold up when it comes under any scrutiny.


It is the same thing with UFO's. We have plenty of sightings, pictures, videos, etc, etc, but NO actual solid evidence that really can hold up to scrutiny that these things ARE aliens or from another world and I say that having experienced some definite UFO activity myself, but even I can not say that what I saw is not just some classified government project or whatever.

As I wrote above, I accept that we need to be careful with stories that we get second or third hand, but even then we don't necessarily need to dismiss them.

The story I quoted above is from a source that I consider to be 100% reliable. But that is part of my journey. Yours is different and I accept that.

Where I definitely disagree with you is that what can not be proved (by current methods) does not exist.

** Thanks for keeping civil about all this! :)

I enjoyed debating with you!

[dancing_with_durga]

To be able to answer the question you need to be sure of the definitions of the words. If by 'life' you mean the body - no, it ends. If you mean ego i.e. 'me', then no, that too ends. Whether those two 'ends' coincide, or whether there is an inter-dimensional existence for the ego beyond this material space/time I'm not sure. However, ultimately, the essence of 'life', that minute aspect of the Source that is within us all, has no beginning or end, there is no 'before' or 'after', it simply exists, it just is. Consider this metaphor.

Imagine a river. As you look at it you know that it consists of an infinite amount of elements, yet at the same time it is 'the river'. Then it comes to a cliff, and pours over the side. A small droplet is thrown clear and falls in parallel with the main flow. Shining across is a beam of sunlight. As the droplet rapidly falls through the rays it goes from red to orange right through the spectrum before it falls back into the river again at the bottom. In this metaphor that brief burst of colour is your 'life'. And what a glorious burst of colour it was, but what has changed? The river is still there, the waterfall is still there, the rainbow is still there. All that has happened is that single unique droplet no longer exists discretely, although of course everything that made that droplet still exists, it is just an indefinable and indivisible part of the river again.

Abstract concepts such as birth and death, beginning and end, up and down are just there to help us navigate this momentary perception of material existence, but ultimately there is no distinction between us, there is no separateness, there is just Source, there is just existence.

[qasrose]

I will forever believe that their is an afterlife.

When you die, you don't just die...

Proof is not always needed. Look at the thousands
upon thousands of reports of NDE and OBE.

[size_of_light]

I've said it before and I'll say it again because it makes a helluva lot of sense:

Even if you're 100% convinced there's no afterlife, you may as well live as though there is one, because once you're dead you'll never know that you wasted your life believing in one.

[limelady]

I've said it before and I'll say it again because it makes a helluva lot of sense:

Even if you're 100% convinced there's no afterlife, you may as well live as though there is one, because once you're dead you'll never know that you wasted your life believing in one.


Well I admit it took me a moment, but yes, that does make sense! :D

[anahata]

We don't die, we transform.

“Investigating reincarnation is an even thornier research problem than studying NDEs. Although almost every culture has stories of people whose souls returned after death, the evidence for that return consists mostly of recollections and anecdotes. Tucker does his best to examine as many of the memories in each case as possible. Sometimes he locates family members and consults local historians to confirm information. Nevertheless, Tucker says, “We would never say that we have proved that reincarnation occurs. I think we can only say that we’ve produced evidence for it.”” :)!!

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jun/soul-search/article_view?b_start:int=1&-C=

[echoes_of_a_dream]

In my experience I also know there is life after death an no matter what anyone else says otherwise it will not change that.

There are plenty of accounts of people who have had mystical experiences which conventional science can't explain. We experience reality through our limited five senses and through that experience we perceive ourselves as a body existing in a material world. Put someone in an isolation tank to deprive their five senses and these boundaries disappear... Youtube - Joe Rogan Floatation Tank

As Krishnamurti said "The question of what is death, what lies beyond death, whether there is reincarnation, whether there is a resurrection becomes rather meaningless if you don't know how to live"

There is a very good talk by Thomas Campbell on consciousness...

Physics, Metaphysics and the nature of Consciousness

Physicist and consciousness researcher, Thomas Campbell, Discusses the nature of reality in terms of consciousness -- this video logically and scientifically explains the normal and the paranormal, mind and matter, physics and metaphysics, philosophy and theology.

[oddblock]

Okay, Here's an interesting article that may at least get some non-believers of the afterlife thinking:

http://www.escapetheillusion.com/blog/2008/11/at-last-scientists-are-discovering-the-soul-deepak-chopra/

[karmic]

hmmm life after death well im a clairvoyant medium and proving that we continue to exist after death is the job ive been given in this life but im not here to convince those that dont wish to believe,im here to help those that have lost loved ones know that those that have passed on are still with them,its a very fullfilling job and im proud to have been given this gift.To have no belief in something more than this life to me is a sad state to be in.

[jayla]

I used to not be sure about it, but let me relate a story to you...
When I was in nursing school I also trained to be an EMT. One night while in the emergency room, a guy about 40-yrs old came walking in the reception area, and promptly collapsed. We got him to the exam room immediately, only to discover he went in to full cardiac arrest. Because I was in training, I stood back and observed everything. The first thing I noticed was that it seemed like he "left" the room when he coded, and I observed that EVERYONE else noticed it as well. He was immediately stripped naked while wires, tubes, injections, etc were introduced into him. I mean it when I say, it was as though a piece of meat were lying there. It was just...empty.
And then...he twitched and gasped, and a rushof energy flew into the room. Even though he was unconcious, I saw nurses cover up his nakedness and treat his body differently after the...whatever it was. Afterward, I was very affected by what had happened, and talked to the staff after the patient was stable. EVERYONE in that room felt the presence come back into this man. Funny thing is, they said they hadn.t ever noticed it that strongly with other patients they had revived.
So my take is...he went somewhere...and then came back.

[anthony65]

hmmm life after death well im a clairvoyant medium and proving that we continue to exist after death is the job ive been given in this life but im not here to convince those that dont wish to believe,im here to help those that have lost loved ones know that those that have passed on are still with them,its a very fullfilling job and im proud to have been given this gift.To have no belief in something more than this life to me is a sad state to be in.


Whether I believe or not in life after death, I wouldn't change the way I live my life.

But...

Does the belief in life after death have any effect on how the after life is experienced? Do we get what we ask for?

[anthony65]

I used to not be sure about it, but let me relate a story to you...
When I was in nursing school I also trained to be an EMT. One night while in the emergency room, a guy about 40-yrs old came walking in the reception area, and promptly collapsed. We got him to the exam room immediately, only to discover he went in to full cardiac arrest. Because I was in training, I stood back and observed everything. The first thing I noticed was that it seemed like he "left" the room when he coded, and I observed that EVERYONE else noticed it as well. He was immediately stripped naked while wires, tubes, injections, etc were introduced into him. I mean it when I say, it was as though a piece of meat were lying there. It was just...empty.
And then...he twitched and gasped, and a rushof energy flew into the room. Even though he was unconcious, I saw nurses cover up his nakedness and treat his body differently after the...whatever it was. Afterward, I was very affected by what had happened, and talked to the staff after the patient was stable. EVERYONE in that room felt the presence come back into this man. Funny thing is, they said they hadn.t ever noticed it that strongly with other patients they had revived.
So my take is...he went somewhere...and then came back.

Wow! Great story!

I always imagine nurses and doctors being cynics who shut off their emotions to help them deal with the stuff they see...

When you write that everyone experienced the same, then this sounds very scientific to me. As in proof. At least for all those present!

[cheeney1]

of course there is theres got to be a Before life as well :)

[karmic]

Whether I believe or not in life after death, I wouldn't change the way I live my life.

But...

Does the belief in life after death have any effect on how the after life is experienced? Do we get what we ask for?

as far as i understand it when we die we review our life and judge ourselves we need to forgive ourselves befor we get to that point, because we are all flawed in some way.life is about learning lessons for our soul growth,and the hardest lessons are the ones we grow from.and as i tell many people we come to this planet alone and we leave this planet alone what we do inbetween is down to us.

[anthony65]

as far as i understand it when we die we review our life and judge ourselves we need to forgive ourselves befor we get to that point, because we are all flawed in some way.life is about learning lessons for our soul growth,and the hardest lessons are the ones we grow from.and as i tell many people we come to this planet alone and we leave this planet alone what we do inbetween is down to us.

Interesting! Thanks!

I believe in being forgiving to ourselves. I find it a healthy attitude. Not excusing our "sins" / mistakes, but accepting that we made them, can learn from them and move on.

** Is the tree pic in your avatar real or a photoshop?

If it's real it's amazing! :)

[karmic]

Interesting! Thanks!

I believe in being forgiving to ourselves. I find it a healthy attitude. Not excusing our "sins" / mistakes, but accepting that we made them, can learn from them and move on.

** Is the tree pic in your avatar real or a photoshop?

If it's real it's amazing! :)

i believe its real i didnt photoshop it

[anthony65]

i believe its real i didnt photoshop it

If I was a boy tree, then I'd fall in love with this tree! She's gorgeous! :)

[karmic]

If I was a boy tree, then I'd fall in love with this tree! She's gorgeous! :)

im a bit of a tree hugger myself lol

[cheesedanish]

Well its nice to know we still have one great Unknown among
the many other Unknowns out there. Death is the Ultimate
Unknown imo.

[cheesedanish]

If energy cannot be created or destroyed what does this say about life after death?

Not much that I know of.

What you say about energy is accurate, however, the energy in the body is maintained by chemical reactions which keep the body warm and at 98.6 F. Energy flows out of the body as heat, and exits the surface of the body as infrared radiation. When you die, the chemical reactions slow to a stop, and the cells break down chemically to give up their last ergs of organized energy. The heat produced also radiates away from the body as infrared radiation until the body reaches equilibrium with its environment and absorbs as much infrared 'heat' radiation as it emits.

So far as we know, that is all there is to the process of death, and there is no violation of energy conservation

Source (http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/ask/a10462.html)

[karmic]

death is the doorway to eternal love

[lottie]

Source (http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/ask/a10462.html)

This is what my partner was telling me when i tried to repeat what other researchers have told me (ie; we're all energy) He said 'we are not energy, we create energy we consume energy to maintain body heat etc but we are ultimately not energy itself!'.

[oddblock]

This is what my partner was telling me when i tried to repeat what other researchers have told me (ie; we're all energy) He said 'we are not energy, we create energy we consume energy to maintain body heat etc but we are ultimately not energy itself!'.

Ah, but are we not just different frequencies of the same vibration?

[lottie]

Ah, but are we not just different frequencies of the same vibration?

I have no idea mate...im not going to just repeat what ive read from other researchers though, just because it seems to fit or make more sense than mainstream science, ive been so wrong so far!!! :D

[size_of_light]

This is what my partner was telling me when i tried to repeat what other researchers have told me (ie; we're all energy) He said 'we are not energy, we create energy we consume energy to maintain body heat etc but we are ultimately not energy itself!'.

Matter is energy when you go down to the subatomic and quantum levels. Maybe he forgot to think about this.

[lottie]

Matter is energy when you go down to the subatomic and quantum levels. Maybe he forgot to think about this.

But subatomic/quantum is mainly theory, none of its proven, he is/was a scientist himself.

[oddblock]

Matter is energy when you go down to the subatomic and quantum levels. Maybe he forgot to think about this.

Yup... Even mainstream science agrees with this :)

Though we could just say we don't know and will have to wait, which is probably the only way this will be solved at the mo!

[size_of_light]

But subatomic/quantum is mainly theory, none of its proven, he is/was a scientist himself.

What does he think matter is, then?

You can ask him this when you're lying in bed...roll over and whisper in his ear for me "What's the matter?" :D

[whiterain]

I've said it before and I'll say it again because it makes a helluva lot of sense:

Even if you're 100% convinced there's no afterlife, you may as well live as though there is one, because once you're dead you'll never know that you wasted your life believing in one.

spot on. i never used to believe, but after certain events made it impossible not too, i decided its pretty pointless not to believe cos if it aint true so fcking what?

and looool at above

[tusme]

Alright boffins, lets get this sorted once and for all, is there an afterlife?

We need documentries, links, thoughts, analysis, all of it.


LETS GET THIS SORTED. :mad::mad::mad:

:)
Hi Whatistruth,

Nevermind the "afterlife"...seek your "beforelife" and you might even get it "sorted", on your own...!? :)

Oh & btw, I'm no "boffin"...!? :eek: :D

Cheers

[queenofleon]

Nope.

When you die, that which is YOU (your consciousness) dies with you and that is that.

There is no proof at all that there is a spirit, soul or anything else that lives on.

The only thing that lives on is the basic elements that are in your body, which go on to form new organisms or just sit in the earth while your body decomposes.


Its sad really but when you stop and think about it, the second you lapse into death, you will not know you lived, so there will be nothing to be sad about right. Sadness is something you will only know while alive, but after you die, as I said, you will simply exist in the minds of others as a memory, until they are gone and you are forgotten.

Think of it this way:
Do you really think somebody who died 1000 years ago cares that he is dead? No, because he cant. He is dead. It doesn't matter to him what sort of life he lived, how he died, etc, etc. He is gone. Our memory of him is gone. He may as well have never lived.

As for there being "life after death", there is absolutely NO proof of that that can be scientifically verified.




We've made up Religions because it comforts us and adds some meaning to life. Those that hate religions make up other "new age" type scenarios, but the brutal fact is that there is NO scientific fact that backs up that there is a life after death.


Its really sad, but as I said, as soon as you die, your conscious will cease and you wont care either way, just like those dead before us do not care if they lived a good or bad life or whatever. They are dead. Its over. Done. Finito.


If believing in the Bible, Allah, Re-incarnation, etc, etc makes life easier to bear, then go for it, but in the end, there is no proof for these things, just the statements that people make, which in 100% of cases can never be proven.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I feel sad for you for believing that.

THERE IS UNTOLD EVIDENCE IN LIFE AFTER DEATH.

In india something like every 4th person has past life memory, it is completely accepted as the norm and part of life over there. honestly there is soooooo much evidence to refute what you say. Millions of people that have gone on record and proving they have lived before cant all be wrong.

We are spiritual beings in a physical world, experiencing this reality to ultimately remember who we truly are, which is infinate consiousness.

My grandad died when I was 18, he has proven to me he lives on, plus I have my own past life memories to boot.

As the great doris stokes once said, you cant die for the life of you!

[hirschfelder]

Wow!

I never knew there were so many people on the forum who have actually died and can say for certain that there is or isn't an afterlife!

I reckon there is, just a feeling I have. But I'm quite happy not knowing. I enjoy life's mysteries, the uncertainty of it all

Maybe what happens when you die is you experience that which you believe to be true. Therefore those that insist - like one of the earlier respondents - that there absolutely is nothing after death, would simply cease to be and there'd be no obnoxious pompous people in the afterlife

[queenofleon]

one thing that did recently scare me and challenge my thinking was when I watched the peggy kane videos.

according to her when we die we got the astral world, that the reptiles rule and use us for food. Apparently they have put a net over the earth and have trapped us in this prison planet, to keep re-incarnating over and over, so that our energy can be harvested.

that shat me up to say the least ...

[size_of_light]

one thing that did recently scare me and challenge my thinking was whe I watched the peggy kane videos.

according to her when we die we got the astral world, that the reptiles rule and use us for food.

that shat me up to say the least ...

Dodgy chick that Peggy Kane.

Is she hawking some kind of Peggy Kane-brand afterlife reptile repellent?

[catfood]

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=the+boy+who+lived+befor&emb=0&aq=f#emb=0&aq=f&q=the%20boy%20who%20lived%20before&dur=3

http://www.near-death.com/

[tusme]

one thing that did recently scare me and challenge my thinking was when I watched the peggy kane videos.

according to her when we die we got the astral world, that the reptiles rule and use us for food. Apparently they have put a net over the earth and have trapped us in this prison planet, to keep re-incarnating over and over, so that our energy can be harvested.

that shat me up to say the least ...
Hi Queenofleon,

Hmm, seems your "energy" is already being "harvested"...!? :eek: :)

Cheers

Cheers

[queenofleon]

Dodgy chick that Peggy Kane.

Is she hawking some kind of Peggy Kane-brand afterlife reptile repellent?

hehehe!! well she defo believes all that stuff. I made the decision not too.

Wright or wrong....we live on!!

[size_of_light]

hehehe!! well she defo believes all that stuff. I made the decision not too.

Wright or wrong....we live on!!

Believe me instead...

...when you die, nine wisecracking blue-skinned clowns with giant green afros bathe you for all of eternity in an empty over-sized tuna can full of milk.

I played some tapes backwards and heard some voices that told me it was true. Just gotta make some Youtube videos now and get the message out to the people...

[Anders Lindman]

My question is: is there death? Obviously our whole planet reeks of death and people die like flies every day, but must we die? Not likely. More likely we are meant to live, not die. We are mammals but also more than that.

[queenofleon]

Believe me instead...

...when you die, nine wisecracking blue-skinned clowns with giant green afros bathe you for all of eternity in an empty over-sized tuna can full of milk.

I played some tapes backwards and heard some voices that told me it was true. Just gotta make some Youtube videos now and get the message out to the people...

OR.......Millions of george bush and Dick Cheney clones, violently fist one another in a ring, and we are in charge of the bell!!

as paul weller once said - thats entertainment

[size_of_light]

OR.......Millions of george bush and Dick Cheney clones, violently fist one another in a ring, and we are in charge of the bell!!

lol. Jesus Christ.

[queenofleon]

lol. Jesus Christ.

yeah , thought I would lower the tone with my 7th post!!

[cruise4]

My grandmother dies in hospital, some 30 miles away at 5.30 a.m. At that moment I awoke and sat bolt upright in bed and heard her say 'Goodbye Rob' as if she was next to me. I immediately fell asleep again.

Given the exact moment of death is probably an argument, I can't claim it proves life after death. But it did prove effect at a distance to me.

I wonder if a baby sits there thinking 'Is this all there is'? I also wonder if there would be any correlation between a babies brain activity and the global conciousness activity as we get nearer to 'something perhaps happening'.

[grannymoose]

so basically none of know :cool:
i know this though it don't matter weather your awake or not you lot still argue like there's no tomorrow

[keystone]

My grandmother dies in hospital, some 30 miles away at 5.30 a.m. At that moment I awoke and sat bolt upright in bed and heard her say 'Goodbye Rob' as if she was next to me. I immediately fell asleep again.

Given the exact moment of death is probably an argument, I can't claim it proves life after death. But it did prove effect at a distance to me.

I wonder if a baby sits there thinking 'Is this all there is'? I also wonder if there would be any correlation between a babies brain activity and the global conciousness activity as we get nearer to 'something perhaps happening'.I had a very similar experience with my mother. She had been transferred to a local hospice earlier that day. Having visisted here I left to drive home (about a 40 mile drive). As I was getting near to home (about 10 minutes away) I suddenly knew she had left us. As I walked through the door the phone was ringing to tell me she had died at exactly the moment I felt that she had.

[lhaull]

This life is as dead as you get.

*Smile

[lester diamond]

I've not read all the posts in this thread so sorry if im repeating what someone else has said. Firstly someone said there is no evidence for an afterlife, well i disagree, there are many documented instances of people who are 'dead', being concious and therefore alive as we would define it. During these near death experience people have explained to their doctors exactly what happened whilke they were technically dead. There is in fact no evidence for death! One book i read told of a cardiologist who had a patient die and tell him the exact events that took place in the operating room while they were trying to revive him. There was no brain activity, the guy was dead yet could say exatly what the doctors spoke about and did and even described the implements used. After this the cardiologist dedicated himself to investigating NDE's. There are many good books on the subject that should be read before deciding there is no life after death. It alway amazes me the amount of closed minded people on a supposedly free thinkers web site.

[stemcg1983]

I've not read all the posts in this thread so sorry if im repeating what someone else has said. Firstly someone said there is no evidence for an afterlife, well i disagree, there are many documented instances of people who are 'dead', being concious and therefore alive as we would define it. During these near death experience people have explained to their doctors exactly what happened whilke they were technically dead. There is in fact no evidence for death! One book i read told of a cardiologist who had a patient die and tell him the exact events that took place in the operating room while they were trying to revive him. There was no brain activity, the guy was dead yet could say exatly what the doctors spoke about and did and even described the implements used. After this the cardiologist dedicated himself to investigating NDE's. There are many good books on the subject that should be read before deciding there is no life after death. It alway amazes me the amount of closed minded people on a supposedly free thinkers web site.

intresting,

could you recommend any books.

send me a pm if you like

[echoes_of_a_dream]

There will never be any evidence which science will accept as confirming that there is life after death, because it is not an objective thing to measure.

How do you define life? What is consciousness?

Objective reality is a subset of subjective reality.

Meh. :rolleyes:

[xpleet]

'Whatistruth',

the topic has gone over here a lot of times I think, use the search function.


Google for: OBE, Robert Monroe, Robert Bruce, astral projection, afterlife, reincarnation, karma etc.
Also look on Youtube you will find a couple of radio interviews there.


The overwhelming evidence can not be denied by those who sincerely seek and accept truth.

[rhydra]

There will never be any evidence which science will accept as confirming that there is life after death, because it is not an objective thing to measure.

How do you define life? What is consciousness?

Objective reality is a subset of subjective reality.

Meh. :rolleyes:

That's it, consciousness can't be proved or disproved any more than life after death can so if an afterlife doesn't exists, does consciousness? There are more convincing arguments of life after death than those which refute it, as for proof, there are some things which cannot be actually proved or disproved, some which never will, that does not mean that they are actually real or not, ti is just that the existence of such is not as palpable as say, the fact that water boils at 100c at sea level.
It must also be remembered that there is no firm proof that life does not carry on after death, there either is or there isn't, if one can't be proved satisfactorily enough to convince the most sceptical then the opposite argument, equally, cannot be proved.

[Anders Lindman]

Our memories may fool us. If there is only now, then nobody has ever died. Why? Because the past is not real. The past is just memory created now. And memory does not contain time.

Think of it as consciousness only existing now and of time as a projection.

[whiterain]

one thing that did recently scare me and challenge my thinking was when I watched the peggy kane videos.

according to her when we die we got the astral world, that the reptiles rule and use us for food. Apparently they have put a net over the earth and have trapped us in this prison planet, to keep re-incarnating over and over, so that our energy can be harvested.

that shat me up to say the least ...

rule number 1 of conspiracy research.. if the theory has no value other than the spreading of fear and paranoia ignore it. its probably bollocks

[Anders Lindman]

What if the material world is just a projection? That in reality there is no such thing as solid matter. David Icke has talked a lot about this. Here is Peter Russell in a short video clip talking about consciousness:

From Science to God - Peter Russell - YouTube

[red_ram]

Nope.

When you die, that which is YOU (your consciousness) dies with you and that is that.

There is no proof at all that there is a spirit, soul or anything else that lives on.

The only thing that lives on is the basic elements that are in your body, which go on to form new organisms or just sit in the earth while your body decomposes.


Its sad really but when you stop and think about it, the second you lapse into death, you will not know you lived, so there will be nothing to be sad about right. Sadness is something you will only know while alive, but after you die, as I said, you will simply exist in the minds of others as a memory, until they are gone and you are forgotten.

Think of it this way:
Do you really think somebody who died 1000 years ago cares that he is dead? No, because he cant. He is dead. It doesn't matter to him what sort of life he lived, how he died, etc, etc. He is gone. Our memory of him is gone. He may as well have never lived.

As for there being "life after death", there is absolutely NO proof of that that can be scientifically verified.




We've made up Religions because it comforts us and adds some meaning to life. Those that hate religions make up other "new age" type scenarios, but the brutal fact is that there is NO scientific fact that backs up that there is a life after death.


Its really sad, but as I said, as soon as you die, your conscious will cease and you wont care either way, just like those dead before us do not care if they lived a good or bad life or whatever. They are dead. Its over. Done. Finito.


If believing in the Bible, Allah, Re-incarnation, etc, etc makes life easier to bear, then go for it, but in the end, there is no proof for these things, just the statements that people make, which in 100% of cases can never be proven.

Equally, you've no evidence that there is no afterlife.

Consciousness is energy. Science will tell you that energy cannot be destroyed.

[whiterain]

knightbk

how about breaking the genome. then eventually developing the tech to recreate people who died in the past? if you go into 'nothingness' you wouldnt even know any time had passed, thus would seem like an immediate afterlife..

[Anders Lindman]

A person who accepts aging and death is like a person stabbing himself or herself with a knife again, and again and again, and saying: I accept this suffering since there is nothing I can do about it. :p

If you are an atheist then you can admit that you are against aging and dying. If you are a religious person you can admit that aging and dying is the work of Satan and not God.

[bemore]

There is more space between atoms than there is atoms. Which means there is more nothingness than there is substance (if you was to remove all of the space between atoms and bundle all of the atoms together in the universe it would fit into the size of a large pea). So what keeps everything linked together and "solid"

Some seem to think that energy keeps things together.

What are we as humans all made up of along with everything else on this planet and in this universe. ATOMS.

So what keeps us together as a solid form???? Could it be energy??? What some could call a soul??? There is meant to be some cameras that can photograph the soul or our AURAS. I dont know how they work and maybe somebody else can try to explain it better than me. What I do know for a fact though is that these camera exist scientificaly and they take pictures of our AURAS.

An alternative therapy is REIKI HEALING (using and sharing ones pure energy to help and heal others)

Please inspect this link

http://www.raeal.org/index.php/2006/07/07/scientists-discover-human-hands-emit-light-energy/

But basicly what the link says is this.....

""Mitsuo Hiramatsu, a scientist at the Central Research Laboratory at Hamamatsu Photonics in Japan, who led the research, told Discovery News that the hands are not the only parts of the body that shine light by releasing photons, or tiny, energized increments of light.

“Not only the hands, but also the forehead and bottoms of our feet emit photons,” Hiramatsu said, and added that in terms of hands “the presence of photons means that our hands are producing light all of the time.”

The light is invisible to the naked eye, so Hiramatsu and his team used a powerful photon counter to “see”it.

The detector found that fingernails release 60 photons, fingers release 40 and the palms are the dimmest of all, with 20 photons measured.

The findings are published in the current Journal of Photochemistry and Photobiology B: Biology.

Hiramatsu is not certain why fingernails light up more than the other parts of the hand, but he said, “It may be because of the optical window property of fingernails,” meaning that the fingernail works somewhat like a prism to scatter light.

To find out what might be creating the light in the first place, he and colleague Kimitsugu Nakamura had test subjects hold plastic bottles full of hot or cold water before their hand photons were measured. The researchers also pumped nitrogen or oxygen gas into the dark box where the individuals placed their hands as they were being analyzed.

Warm temperatures increased the release of photons, as did the introduction of oxygen. Rubbing mineral oil over the hands also heightened light levels.

Based on those results, the scientists theorize the light “is a kind of chemiluminescence,” a luminescence based on chemical reactions, such as those that make fireflies glow. The researchers believe 40 percent of the light results from the chemical reaction that constantly occurs as our hand skin reacts with oxygen.""

So science tends to point towards us holding a certain energy, these findings like so many things raise more questions than it poses answers.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Ive just realised ive included all of this information yet ive still not got an answer to the question???? Is there an afterlife.

But I hope all of this is food for thought.....one thing i am 100% sure of is that we will all one day know LOL

Peace

[tejas]

But subatomic/quantum is mainly theory, none of its proven, he is/was a scientist himself.

E=mc2 is pretty much proven, look at atomic bombs...

[Anders Lindman]

There is more space between atoms than there is atoms. Which means there is more nothingness than there is substance

I wouldn't call it nothingness. The zero point field contains extremely dense energy and instead of 'empty space' what we have is a 'quantum soap' that is full of energy.

[bemore]

I wouldn't call it nothingness. The zero point field contains extremely dense energy and instead of 'empty space' what we have is a 'quantum soap' that is full of energy.

"Quantum soap" and "zero point field" another thing im gonna have to add to my list of things to research and learn about LOL.

Thanks for making me aware : )

Peace

[red_ram]

I will forever believe that their is an afterlife.

When you die, you don't just die...

Proof is not always needed. Look at the thousands
upon thousands of reports of NDE and OBE.

To expand on the above point:

The thousands upon thousands of reports of NDEs and OBEs experienced by unconnected people, recalling remarkably similar events and processes.

[Anders Lindman]

"Quantum soap" and "zero point field" another thing im gonna have to add to my list of things to research and learn about LOL.

Thanks for making me aware : )

Peace

Going quite off topic :D but:

"... all matter is fundamentally made up of electrically charged particles, and they rely on the existence of Zero Point Energy.

Zero Point Energy (ZPE) is the term used to describe the random electromagnetic oscillations that are left in a vacuum after all other energy has been removed (ref 13). This can be explained in terms of quantum theory ..."

From: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/ipspaper.html

The zero point field is very interesting in that it can lead to new energy technologies.

[whiterain]

hi bemore. yes i dont know too much about the kirlian photographic technology, but from my understanding it is basically taking photos of light energy that is above the visible spectrum that our eyes can perceive, then transferring it to something we can see. much like sound recordings of things like bats echo location which we would never hear, but the recordings are then brought down to our level so we can. google kirlian for a better explanation.

heres a good video for people who dismiss these things like i used to

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=1yx6PaLTKTk

[Anders Lindman]

The Zero Point Field could perhaps also be used for health purposes. Maybe that will not reverse aging and prevent death, but at least create an enormous health boost.

Consciousness, the mind and the body are already connected to zero point energy. The question is how, and in what way. Something to investigate is to see if practices like meditation, body awareness and/or introspection could be used to tap into the zero point field.

[nimlyn]

Alright boffins, lets get this sorted once and for all, is there an afterlife?

We need documentries, links, thoughts, analysis, all of it.


LETS GET THIS SORTED. :mad::mad::mad:

:)

I often feel uncomfortable when discussing spirits and heavenly realms…For me they are like fairy tale ideas so I tend to sit on the fence of doubt regarding these topics but this year I am beginning to weaken to the idea that there’s something genuine with the spirit stuff…I’m just experiencing too many weird things at the moment which have me leaning over towards the believer side of things…Well Almost! Gee! It’s gonna be one of those feeble minded days today…:o

[zero1]

I think so, yes.

[Anders Lindman]

Do spirit realms exist? Are there things like for example demons? Possibly yes! Just as David Icke says, what we experience is only a tiny and narrow spectrum of reality. Empty space is filled with energy! There are probably tons of demons in every cubic centimeter of space!!! :D I think of demons here as energy fields rather than actual sentient beings.

Then what about ghosts? Can there be dead people existing today as ghosts? Yes, sort of I believe. The ghosts are not the actual dead persons but instead energy patterns living on after death. The ghosts then are not conscious beings and only apparitions of energy patterns resonating with the past lives of the persons who have died.

[aee02]

My grandfather had an NDE. He was clinically dead long enough for there to be brain damage. I wish I could download his experience here but it is on tape because it happened in 1978. Not only did he not have brain damage but he regained 20/20 vision. It changed him in so many profound ways.

When my partner's father died in 2006 it turned my life around 360 degrees. I wouldn't say I'm psychic but crazy things have happened since that time. I had this sensation before his accident and another one an hour before we found out he would not survive. The day before he died I was in the room alone with him and he suddenly said, "Do you see that?" I thought he was talking about the type hospital bed that had his broken hip pinned. He said, "that bright light". I knew immediately what he was talking about. He then told me matter of factly that the men were coming to get him tomorrow. This was a lucid man right to the end. At the end, we were with him and I remember rubbing his feet telling him it was ok to go and I felt this energy leave his body starting from his feet to his head. Then I felt this tether kind of energy go through the wall-it was like static electricity. I believe I have heard the term, "the thin space" between worlds. That was what I experienced.

Like I said I'm no pyschic. Until that time I was a really boring banker kind of person. But since that time my life has turned upside down. NDE and these kind of experiences have brought me round circle to David Icke and the like. I question a lot but if there is one thing I know from experience is that something happens when we die and according to my grandfather-its a pretty good thing...

Sorry to go on.. I wish I had some concrete evidence to offer but in this case we have to rely on experiences.

PS-I was briefly a chaplain and I did some volunteer work with older folks and if you have ever seen someone die you know that the spirit or consciousness is no longer there. You just see it. The body is like a shell. It is more than physical you can just tell the animation is gone. Again, sorry to go on...

[Anders Lindman]

My grandfather had an NDE.

Do you remember if your grandfather could see his own body from above during the NDE? I have heard that many people who have had NDEs could see their body from a point above. And people who have had out of body experiences (OBEs) also have reported seeing their body from points outside of it.

A scientific explanation for this could be that consciousness moves from 'being in the physical body' into space (the zero point field). The physical body is 'only' a receiver for consciousness. In NDEs and OBEs consciousness tunes away from the body 'frequency'.

[madamlasher]

yes, this is what happens: right when you die you will see your life be recounted for you, then you could either go back to the 'light' and on the way become the knower of all and if you are enlightened enough you may become apart of the light, but if you are still a soul that needs development you will be born from the light back into another body.

ps IMO

[aee02]

Do you remember if your grandfather could see his own body from above during the NDE? I have heard that many people who have had NDEs could see their body from a point above. And people who have had out of body experiences (OBEs) also have reported seeing their body from points outside of it.

A scientific explanation for this could be that consciousness moves from 'being in the physical body' into space (the zero point field). The physical body is 'only' a receiver for consciousness. In NDEs and OBEs consciousness tunes away from the body 'frequency'.


Hello. Yes, he could see his body and he was able to recount to the Dr.s and nurses what they did to revive him. He said he heard them say to contact his wife. He told them that she would not answer the phone because she was probably out feeding the birds (lol). He said of course they didn't hear him because he was still in the "spirit"-his reference.

[measle_weasel]

Alright boffins, lets get this sorted once and for all, is there an afterlife?

Yes. The soul/spirit/consciencious is eternal.

To all of you who do not believe in an afterlife, and are adamant there is not one, I would like to know:

Why dont you just kill yourself? The outcome would be the same as if you died naturally. Its a seriously question, too.

[jayla]

Believe me instead...

...when you die, nine wisecracking blue-skinned clowns with giant green afros bathe you for all of eternity in an empty over-sized tuna can full of milk.

I played some tapes backwards and heard some voices that told me it was true. Just gotta make some Youtube videos now and get the message out to the people...
Oh well, then, that means there definately is a Hell, cause clowns are my big phobia! Then you mix those freaky "blue men" in and I'm done for!:D

[briggs55]

There's also no proof that there isn't. And how do you know there's no proof? I beg to differ on that one.

There's no proof I didn't have my way with your anus last night when you were sleeping, either.


The reason I don't think it's merely over when you die is that it would be too easy. Too easy to escape all your problems by death. Die and reach heaven. It cannot be that simple.

(In case some of you didn't catch my point, non-existence is heaven.)
Amen brother the true people of non dualism advaita vedanta know this great truth!!

[briggs55]

To be able to answer the question you need to be sure of the definitions of the words. If by 'life' you mean the body - no, it ends. If you mean ego i.e. 'me', then no, that too ends. Whether those two 'ends' coincide, or whether there is an inter-dimensional existence for the ego beyond this material space/time I'm not sure. However, ultimately, the essence of 'life', that minute aspect of the Source that is within us all, has no beginning or end, there is no 'before' or 'after', it simply exists, it just is. Consider this metaphor.

Imagine a river. As you look at it you know that it consists of an infinite amount of elements, yet at the same time it is 'the river'. Then it comes to a cliff, and pours over the side. A small droplet is thrown clear and falls in parallel with the main flow. Shining across is a beam of sunlight. As the droplet rapidly falls through the rays it goes from red to orange right through the spectrum before it falls back into the river again at the bottom. In this metaphor that brief burst of colour is your 'life'. And what a glorious burst of colour it was, but what has changed? The river is still there, the waterfall is still there, the rainbow is still there. All that has happened is that single unique droplet no longer exists discretely, although of course everything that made that droplet still exists, it is just an indefinable and indivisible part of the river again.

Abstract concepts such as birth and death, beginning and end, up and down are just there to help us navigate this momentary perception of material existence, but ultimately there is no distinction between us, there is no separateness, there is just Source, there is just existence.
Thank you for this wonderful post!!

[_jay_]

Beliefs, experience, yes there is an afterlife.

[zero]

Consciousness is eternal.

[mountainwarrior]

"When you die, that which is YOU (your consciousness) dies with you and that is that.

There is no proof at all that there is a spirit, soul or anything else that lives on.

The only thing that lives on is the basic elements that are in your body, which go on to form new organisms or just sit in the earth while your body decomposes."

total bullshit.

how does such a spiritual mental midget even begin posting on this website.

gtfo.

[measle_weasel]

"when you die, that which is you (your consciousness) dies with you and that is that.

There is no proof at all that there is a spirit, soul or anything else that lives on.

The only thing that lives on is the basic elements that are in your body, which go on to form new organisms or just sit in the earth while your body decomposes."

total bullshit.

How does such a spiritual mental midget even begin posting on this website.

Gtfo.

lol :D

[measle_weasel]

So, any atheists want to answer me?

If there is no afterlife, what stops you from commiting suicide? After all, the outcome is the same, and can you really say that you are happy in this life?

Actually, who cares if you are happy or not? Because once you cease to be, you wont remember you were happy anyway! You wouldnt exist, and eventually, neither would your legacy left behind!

I really want to argue this with an atheist....

[armoured_amazon]

Yes. :)

[zero]

Even if death were the end of consciousness, still doesn't mean everyone would react by giving up.

[measle_weasel]

Even if death were the end of consciousness, still doesn't mean everyone would react by giving up.

You are correct. But it does mean that nothing matters, and "giving up", as you say, would end in the same result as... "going on". Therefore, living, and dying, would have no clear distinction.

My question is WHY? Why go on? Theres nothing to go on FOR!

[zero]

Sure there is...strawberries!:)

[measle_weasel]

Sure there is...strawberries!:)

Are you an atheist?

[mountainwarrior]

one of the biggest nwo psyops ever is to convince the masses that life ends when you die.

it makes a person feel powerless, and much more likely to submit their mind/bodies over to the powers that be.

david icke talks about this in some of his lectures.

[mountainwarrior]

recent example of nwo mass brainwashing psyop in action.

from stewart swerdlow....

"Tonight, British viewers will see a documentary called, "The Suicide Tourist". It is a true story of an American man living in Britain who is dying of a neuron disease that paralyzes him.

He and his wife travel to Zurich where they rent an apartment and have a technician from a Swiss clinic give him a deadly cocktail as the cameras roll. You will see the 59-year-old man actually die on camera.

I have no issues with assisted suicide in extreme cases. However, the man, beofre he dies makes a statement to his children living in the US-- that he truly expects that there is no immortal soul and no afterlife. Death is the ultimate end.

What imprinting is this for the world? It is OK to die and be killed because there are no repercussions. Life is just an accident? A gamble? Now we can understand why this man attracted this deadly illness. "

[zero]

Are you an atheist?

I think that awareness is indestructible, part of the fabric of reality, though the forms with which it expresses itself are ever-changing.

[mountainwarrior]

this is one of the biggest forms of control which keeps sheople living in fear and living in denial, people are completely oblivious to the true nature of reality and instead exist on lower levels of consciousness. very few people use their full potential.

as david icke has said.

what are you?

most people reply....."im a lawyer" or "im a street sweeper"

well i reply "i am multidimensional infinite consciousness, nice to meet you"

[measle_weasel]

I think that awareness is indestructible, part of the fabric of reality, though the forms with which it expresses itself are ever-changing.

Awareness, as in, consciencness? So is that a no?

[measle_weasel]

recent example of nwo mass brainwashing psyop in action.

from stewart swerdlow....

"Tonight, British viewers will see a documentary called, "The Suicide Tourist". It is a true story of an American man living in Britain who is dying of a neuron disease that paralyzes him.

He and his wife travel to Zurich where they rent an apartment and have a technician from a Swiss clinic give him a deadly cocktail as the cameras roll. You will see the 59-year-old man actually die on camera.

I have no issues with assisted suicide in extreme cases. However, the man, beofre he dies makes a statement to his children living in the US-- that he truly expects that there is no immortal soul and no afterlife. Death is the ultimate end.

What imprinting is this for the world? It is OK to die and be killed because there are no repercussions. Life is just an accident? A gamble? Now we can understand why this man attracted this deadly illness. "

Wow. I wonder whats on the other side waiting for him... hes sure going to get a big, not necessarily good, suprise.

[zero]

Awareness, as in, consciencness? So is that a no?

You mean, do I "believe in God"?

[measle_weasel]

You mean, do I "believe in God"?

Miscom. I consider an atheist to be someone who does not believe in an afterlife, which assumes they do not believe in a diety of any sort. Though I guess atheist could also just be defined as someone who does not believe in a diety, but not necessarily an afterlife.

When I asked if you were an atheist, I meant, do you not believe in an afterlife. Because if you do believe in an afterlife, its somewhat difficult to argue with you as if you did not.

[zero]

A mosquito is an expression of consciousness. It has no little to no awareness of human beings and their concepts. Still, it exists and is aware in its own way. I exist, as well, and am aware of the mosquito. Do you "believe in" consciousness?

[measle_weasel]

A mosquito is an expression of consciousness. It has no little to no awareness of human beings and their concepts. Still, it exists and is aware in its own way. I exist, as well, and am aware of the mosquito. Do you "believe in" consciousness?

I am as sure as I can possibly be that conscienceness presists eternally, and beyond. Which, would mean, I believe in an afterlife. I do not believe a conscienceness is ever disolved, split, or in any other way modified in a reductionary way.

Do you believe in an afterlife in this manner? In that your memories, experiences, and thoughts presist to the next life, or next state of being?

[zero]

I don't believe that the "individual" persists after death, except in a residual way. How can you not see that consciousness can be split? Don't you see all the manifested individual consciousnesses around you?

[Anders Lindman]

Yes, he could see his body and he was able to recount to the Dr.s and nurses what they did to revive him.

Ah! Thanks. I have heard a lot of similar experiences. In one case the person having an NDE in a hospital could read the text on top of the lamps in the operating room, something that was only visible when looking from a point near the ceiling. If that experience is true, then the NDE cannot be explained as only something that happens in the brain.

[measle_weasel]

There is more space between atoms than there is atoms. Which means there is more nothingness than there is substance (if you was to remove all of the space between atoms and bundle all of the atoms together in the universe it would fit into the size of a large pea). So what keeps everything linked together and "solid"

I saw that said in some movie. Thats not really true, as there would be no known internal pressure that could counteract the external force of gravity. Black holes are called singularitys because they have no volume; they are infintesimally small, and continue to get smaller over time, as nothing known can stop the collapse.

And what keeps things linked together is the strong and weak nuclear forces.

[measle_weasel]

I don't believe that the "individual" persists after death, except in a residual way. How can you not see that consciousness can be split? Don't you see all the manifested individual consciousnesses around you?

That doesnt mean they are, or ever were, part of the same one conscienceness. They might have some type of connection, but that does not mean they are "one". "One" insinuates no individuallity, and I choose to believe that individuallity is preserved after death.

[zero]

That doesnt mean they are, or ever were, part of the same one conscienceness. They might have some type of connection, but that does not mean they are "one". "One" insinuates no individuallity, and I choose to believe that individuallity is preserved after death.

I hope my views do not make you uncomfortable.

I do believe there is a base consciousness to which all spacetime experience adheres, i.e. nothing is lost, all experience is preserved.

[measle_weasel]

I see it like this:

We are all grains of sand. We can all come together to form one beach. But if we form one beach, that does not mean we are one grain of sand.

That might be more clear.

[zero]

I see it like this:

We are all grains of sand. We can all come together to form one beach. But if we form one beach, that does not mean we are one grain of sand.

That might be more clear.

No, you were already clear, my friend. It's not that I fail to understand. I just disagree.

I do believe that individual consciousnesses can accumulate vast experience over countless eons, but that all eventually return to the one consciousness from whence they came.

It isn't a terrible or sad thing to happen. Eventually all beings become wise enough to realize this, and go willingly. It is a selfless "sacrifice", as all the great spiritual masters have spoken of.

[armoured_amazon]

Human adults do far too much thinking and rationalising to ever see what is real. Grow down! :)

[measle_weasel]

Growth is a one way street.

[armoured_amazon]

Growth is a one way street.

Along which many drive in the wrong direction.

[xaroz]

I'm still laughing at the people who demand proof :D

[armoured_amazon]

I'm still laughing at the people who demand proof :D

It's naughty to laugh at people *spank*

Yesterday at my Grandad's funeral, even the non-believers had proof of a Higher Being. It rocked to see their faces when God showed up!

:D

[measle_weasel]

I'm still laughing at the people who demand proof :D

Honestly, I think the proof is just the fact that there is existance, as existance insinuates meaning. If there was no afterlife, then there would be no meaning to living; having conscienceness. If there was no meaning, then there was no purpose for the universe to begin in the first place, as nothing was to be gained from it coming into existance, thus it should not exist.

Also, I would say that the proof is in the fact that you are capable of experiencing time. If conscienceness disolved into non-existance, and that point of dissolution did infact exist, it would erase your point of reference of time, or your knowledge of beginning to exist, and the presistance thereafter. Without that reference point, even if erased in the future, you wouldnt be able to experience time in the present, if infact that future point existed.

It is like if a person were to be told that by walking through a certain door, their memory would be erased with totality and permanence in five years time. If that person walked through the door, would they really experience time, or anything for that matter, in the next five years leading up to the erasure of their memory? Did they experience anything at all in their past? Or would they start anew, as if they had just come into existance, being that their prior reference point of coming into existance had been destroyed?

Both are philisophical questions really, with no scientific proof. Food for thought, I guess.

[measle_weasel]

Id love to get paid for being a philosopher.

[zero]

Honestly, I think the proof is just the fact that there is existance, as existance insinuates meaning. If there was no afterlife, then there would be no meaning to living; having conscienceness. If there was no meaning, then there was no purpose for the universe to begin in the first place, as nothing was to be gained from it coming into existance, thus it should not exist.

Also, I would say that the proof is in the fact that you are capable of experiencing time. If conscienceness disolved into non-existance, and that point of dissolution did infact exist, it would erase your point of reference of time, or your knowledge of beginning to exist, and the presistance thereafter. Without that reference point, even if erased in the future, you wouldnt be able to experience time in the present, if infact that future point existed.

It is like if a person were to be told that by walking through a certain door, their memory would be erased with totality and permanence in five years time. If that person walked through the door, would they really experience time, or anything for that matter, in the next five years leading up to the erasure of their memory? Did they experience anything at all in their past? Or would they start anew, as if they had just come into existance, being that their prior reference point of coming into existance had been destroyed?

Both are philisophical questions really, with no scientific proof. Food for thought, I guess.

Time is space. You cannot experience one without the other.

Have you considered that were an individual consciousness to be eternal as a unique body-form, existence would be just as meaningless as were there no continuation of consciousness after "death"?

[armoured_amazon]

Id love to get paid for being a philosopher.

:D

[friendsinthesky]

"there is no afterlife, I'm living proof of it" - f.i.t.s

[friendsinthesky]

Time is space. You cannot experience one without the other.


Define time and define space.


Time is space. You cannot experience one without the other.

Have you considered that were an individual consciousness to be eternal as a unique body-form, existence would be just as meaningless as were there no continuation of consciousness after "death"?

How about;
Have you considered that we're an individual consciousness to be eternal as a unique body-form, existence would be just as meaningless as were there no consciousness after "death"?

[zero]

Define time and define space.

Change.

How about;
Have you considered that we're an individual consciousness to be eternal as a unique body-form, existence would be just as meaningless as were there no consciousness after "death"?

I fail to understand what you meant to convey by those alterations.

My point was that consciousness is not human, and that it would be as meaningless to live forever as the image you have of yourself now as it would for that image to cease entirely.

[friendsinthesky]

My point was that consciousness is not human, and that it would be as meaningless to live forever as the image you have of yourself now as it would for that image to cease entirely.

How about:
My point was that consciousness is not physical, and that it would be as meaningless to live forever as the image you have of yourself now as it would for that image to cease entirely.

Well, that's a matter of choice in the afterlife. Is it not? Are we not the creater in the etheral/astral/realm?

[joy division]

What about is there a before life?

hmmmmm.

got you thinking.

[friendsinthesky]

What about is there a before life?

hmmmmm.

got you thinking.

"There is no before life, I'm living proof of it". - it's just the "now"! Get used to it.

[joy division]

"There is no before life, I'm living proof of it". - it's just the "now"! Get used to it.

prove it

[friendsinthesky]

prove it

I'm replying Now!

[zero]

How about:
My point was that consciousness is not physical, and that it would be as meaningless to live forever as the image you have of yourself now as it would for that image to cease entirely.

Well, that's a matter of choice in the afterlife. Is it not? Are we not the creater in the etheral/astral/realm?

You mean it is a choice whether or not to cling to a particular temporal manifestation of consciousness, i.e. to be a "ghost"?

Yes, of course. What color are your eyes?

[friendsinthesky]

You mean it is a choice whether or not to cling to a particular temporal manifestation of consciousness, i.e. to be a "ghost"?

Yes, of course. What color are your eyes?

What ever colour I choose them to be. It's my manisfestation, so therefore , to me , it's "real".

[saab1981]

I certainly believe in an afterlife, but I feel it has nothing to do with religion, or anything 'new age'. I just think you go into another dimension and are free to roam wherever you like.

[joy division]

I'm replying Now!

how are you proof theres no before life?

[friendsinthesky]

how are you proof theres no before life?

Hehe, let me help you out. If I were you, I would have replied;

hey f.i.t.s, you said "I'm replying now!". That means, there must have been a past for you to reply to.


..and I would reply back to you and ask, "so, what did you learn from the past" ?

[zero]

What ever colour I choose them to be. It's my manisfestation, so therefore , to me , it's "real".

Well, that's just not true. Your eye color is a product of heredity. which is a temporal, physical phenomenon.

Do you believe all events are predetermined? Or is there an element of chaos and randominity?

[haukipesukone]

[COLOR="Red"]
You need absolute proof?

If you don't have absolute proof then it doesn't exist?

How ignorant.

How arrogant.

How unscientific.

How typical of the lie that is modern aetheistic science. What we can not prove with our instruments and techniques does not exist!

How primitive!

How stupid!

What a lie! They do believe in a lot of stuff that they claim to dismiss. They pour massive amounts of money into "scientific research" and if the results fit their agenda they then announce their findings to the world.

What previously "did not exist" now does exist because our scientists tell us so.

Science as religion.

Scientists as God!


Beautiful. And righteously emotional.


A friend of mine saw a ghost last week as we were playing hide and seek in the park at night. (Yes, we're adults.) He said it's was his third time to see a ghost, and that some of his family members have seen them too.

I don't think he was making it up or being delusional. Although it doesn't prove anything about the existence of afterlife, it strongly suggests they've seen something that science dismisses as irrelevant, because it doesn't fit their dogma. Yet it exists.

[friendsinthesky]

Well, that's just not true. Your eye color is a product of heredity. which is a temporal, physical phenomenon.

Do you believe all events are predetermined? Or is there an element of chaos and randominity?


Can you not manifest anything in the astrol realm? Ofcourse you can.

[friendsinthesky]

Do you believe all events are predetermined? Or is there an element of chaos and randominity?

Strangely enough, lately I'm thinking, it's written. But I can still kill should I choose right?

[zero]

Can you not manifest anything in the astrol realm? Ofcourse you can.

Tell me more of this astral realm, if you would please.:)

[zero]

Strangely enough, lately I'm thinking, it's written. But I can still kill should I choose right?

Kill?:eek: Kill who?:confused:

[friendsinthesky]

Tell me more of this astral realm, if you would please.:)

You can tell me more about a human removed from consciousness, now that will be interesting. But I'm guessing that you're guessing, right?

[friendsinthesky]

Kill?:eek: Kill who?:confused:

I'm not in the market for killing, I'd only like to now that I still have a choice.

[armoured_amazon]

Everyone has choice to do right or wrong.

[zero]

You can tell me more about a human removed from consciousness, now that will be interesting. But I'm guessing that you're guessing, right?

What is it that you're guessing I'm guessing, exactly? Also, you say I could tell you more about a human removed from consciousness. Do you mean that you believe I am not conscious?

[zero]

I'm not in the market for killing, I'd only like to now that I still have a choice.

You'd like to kill? Who? why?:confused:

[friendsinthesky]

Everyone has choice to do right or wrong.
That resonates with me. I once killed a bird with a gun. I looked at the bird on the ground and knew that killing for fun/target practise was senseless and useless. It was a nice little bird, I no longer bear guilt, but I still remember.

[friendsinthesky]

You'd like to kill? Who? why?:confused:

Are you trying to convince me that my choice's are removed?

[zero]

Are you trying to convince me that my choice's are removed?

No, I think you've misunderstood, my friend. If I say that eye color is hereditary and not an individual choice, need that mean I am saying there is no freewill?

[zero]

Also, I wasn't trying to convince you of anything. If you dislike the conversation, I will end it. It was not my intention to make you uncomfortable.

[friendsinthesky]

No, I think you've misunderstood, my friend. If I say that eye color is hereditary and not an individual choice, need that mean I am saying there is no freewill?

That will be what your saying, But , hereditary is heresy. Unless you believe otherwise.

[zero]

That will be what your saying, But , hereditary is heresy. Unless you believe otherwise.

I'm sorry, could you rephrase that more comprehensibly?

[friendsinthesky]

If I say that eye color is hereditary and not an individual choice,

Hereditary is heresy. Unless you believe otherwise.



need that mean I am saying there is no freewill?

Yes, I guess that is what you will be saying.


:)

[zero]

Hereditary is heresy. Unless you believe otherwise.

That isn't more comprehensible...

Yes, I guess that is what you will be saying.

What am I saying, again?:rolleyes:

[bemore]

Energy and the soul/consciousness.

When I think about the process of creation and birth, the sperm fertilising the egg which thus creates the embryo.

Makes me wonder where the soul comes into play into the equation. At what point does the soul enter the body??? Or is it created as the embryo grows?? If you believe in re-incarnation at what stage would you be reborn into new life???

I have a large interest in hypnotism and I have studied Past Life Regression. A lot of people believe in it but unfortunatly the truth of the matter is a large amount of hypnotists who do this believe it is bullshit. They have had 100s of people who have been Cleopatra in past lifes, 100s of people who have been julius cesar.

This doesnt disprove re-incarnation but it sort of argues against it from the point of conscious thinking.

I also wonder, we as Human beings are alive just as all animals are. The most prominent thing that seperates us is our brains. I imagine that all living things have a sort of emotional level. If you was to beat a dog and then later raise a fist it would flinch, some would say it is a natural survival reaction but others would say it is through fear. So that makes me wonder....
1. If animals have a certain limited consciousness can they think about life as we do, do they understand.
2. If they have a soul and they die what sort of afterlife would they experience.

So here on earth we are all alive, all living things have a soul. Obviously we cannot communicate verbally with any animal (comunicate to the degree where they communicate back to a point we understand-like two people having a conversation)

So if an animal dies and its soul moves on, would it move to the same place that we move to??? Because if it did then surely the place they move to with us would have to be a universal place (universal as in accepting every sort of soul from anything that once lived) which means that the energy no matter what it comes from is all the same.

I dont know if im communicating this properly, i sometimes have trouble translating the views in my head into words, but i think i may have acheieved what I have wanted to.

Peace

[zero]

What determines the "limitations" of a consciousness? The physical body?

[friendsinthesky]

What determines the "limitations" of a consciousness? The physical body?

Consciousness determines the limitations of the physical body, ie; it can go on forever dancing.

You need to delete consciousness from your mind and accept you!

[zero]

Consciousness determines the limitations of the physical body, ie; it can go on forever dancing.

You need to delete consciousness from your mind and accept you!

I do accept myself. What precisely are you trying to convince me of?:rolleyes:;) But seriously, I'm not sure I want to continue this conversation. You seem to come unglued rather easily, my friend, e.g. "hereditary is heresy", e.g. talk of killing...

[bigus_dickus]

i remember posting in a thread with the same question some time ago.

i said that i don't really know if there is an after life, but i know that there is a "before life".

metaphorically speaking of course, because life happens only "now", but by "before" i only mean "before i started to remember and contemplate".

so how do i know this.. it is not rocket science, it is very simple. i know that i was once a single cell into a woman's body. then this cell became two, these became four and so on and so on and then there was a baby. before this cell, which was me, there was an egg and and a spermatozoon, but these were not me. i started to be me when the egg and the spermatozoon connected. before that, i was energy manifest as a desire into my father's and my mother's eyes. this desire was the first glimpse of me. i was already there, because i was to become, so one thing led to another and this desire became a being and this being became me.

now i don't remember any of that stuff, i have no memory of being a cell, or being a baby in a womb, but it was definitely me, i existed, i experienced, i was there. this was my before life for which i have no memory about, because memory would not be necessary at this point.

about what happens after i die, i don't know.

but, same as, i didn't know what would happen before i got born.

when i was "dead" (not born yet), i didn't know if there was an "after death" (or an after birth).

when i was in the womb, i had no idea that there was an "outside". i most definitely had no idea at all! but this could also be the case right now. i have no idea at all, so i don't know.

many people believe and have evidence of reincarnation, "NDE", "OBE", mental connection to living or deceased people, etc.

BUT. have you ever considered, that maybe we are not all supposed to go through the same identical process? maybe some people's consciousness (memory) is bound to disappear because they judge that it has done its circle in this existence and maybe some other people's consciousness is bound to continue in this or in another existence and it's all according to how this particular consciousness experienced existence and what choices it made. so, maybe reincarnation is something that happens, but that doesn't mean that everyone is doing it. "natural selection" comes to mind.. and i don't mean that nature selects the "good" or "God loving" people, nature (which in essence is you), will select the appropriate manifestation according to the conditions in which it will manifest.

for example, a buddhist saying goes "when the conditions are sufficient, I manifest"

I manifest. not me, Bigus Dickus, but I. and different beings manifest under different conditions, for example deep down in the ocean where we would believe that life is impossible to exist, I manifest.. as the most amazing and mysterious forms you have ever met.

do you think that the earth is dead inside? if there are living beings on the surface, on the dirt, in the sea, under the ground, on the air, outside of the air.. why would there not be life inside the earth, in forms that we are unable to detect and comprehend? there is no proof, but it is thinkable, while the unthinkable (life in great depths in the ocean) becomes proof.

what is darkness? darkness is the light that we don't see.

[zero]

Interesting post, dickus.

BUT. have you ever considered, that maybe we are not all supposed to go through the same identical process? maybe some people's consciousness (memory) is bound to disappear because they judge that it has done its circle in this existence and maybe some other people's consciousness is bound to continue in this or in another existence and it's all according to how this particular consciousness experienced existence and what choices it made. so, maybe reincarnation is something that happens, but that doesn't mean that everyone is doing it. "natural selection" comes to mind.. and i don't mean that nature selects the "good" or "God loving" people, nature (which in essence is you), will select the appropriate manifestation according to the conditions in which it will manifest.

Diversity appears to be the aim of existence...

[measle_weasel]

Have you considered that were an individual consciousness to be eternal as a unique body-form, existence would be just as meaningless as were there no continuation of consciousness after "death"?

Yes, I have. And I reject it.

Thats fine for someone to believe that they and everything else is all this infinite, eternal, unique body form conscienceness, and that we as individuals do not exist, but I dont believe thats how things work. Like I said before, grains of sand on a beach. If a grain chooses to be together, they form a beach. A beach is not, however, ever going to be a grain of sand.

Whats your rational for believing that everything is actually just one homogenous, indistinct singularity blob?

[measle_weasel]

1. If animals have a certain limited consciousness can they think about life as we do, do they understand.
2. If they have a soul and they die what sort of afterlife would they experience.

Why would they have a certain limit? Maybe their conscienceness is equal to, or greater than, your own. Humans subjective view of intelligence does not necessarily correlate with conscienceness.

To me, all sentience presists. And, who knows, dirt could be sentient. Water could have conscienceness. /shrug

[measle_weasel]

I do accept myself. What precisely are you trying to convince me of?:rolleyes:;) But seriously, I'm not sure I want to continue this conversation. You seem to come unglued rather easily, my friend, e.g. "hereditary is heresy", e.g. talk of killing...

LOL. Look at his location, he does, afterall, live in "my[his] world" :D

[zero]

Yes, I have. And I reject it.

Thats fine for someone to believe that they and everything else is all this infinite, eternal, unique body form conscienceness, and that we as individuals do not exist, but I dont believe thats how things work. Like I said before, grains of sand on a beach. If a grain chooses to be together, they form a beach. A beach is not, however, ever going to be a grain of sand.

Whats your rational for believing that everything is actually just one homogenous, indistinct singularity blob?

Well, let's look at it like this...what makes you you?

Do you believe in reincarnation? Or do you feel that you as an individual human with all of your accompanying biographic details (race, hair & eye color, place of birth, gender, ect.) have always existed?

If this makes you uncomfortable, please let me know. I really don't want another ridiculous outburst like when fits threw its fit.

[zero]

Why would they have a certain limit? Maybe their conscienceness is equal to, or greater than, your own. Humans subjective view of intelligence does not necessarily correlate with conscienceness.

To me, all sentience presists. And, who knows, dirt could be sentient. Water could have conscienceness. /shrug

Yes, I think "everything", in fact, is consciousness.

[measle_weasel]

Well, let's look at it like this...what makes you you?

Do you believe in reincarnation? Or do you feel that you as an individual human with all of your accompanying biographic details (race, hair & eye color, place of birth, gender, ect.) have always existed?

I do believe in reincarnation. I do not believe that this particular body has anything to do with who I truly am. I am me, and the body is a limited expression of myself, and my unique personallity, of which the body does not determine.

If this makes you uncomfortable, please let me know. I really don't want another ridiculous outburst like when fits threw its fit.

I may feel somewhat unfortable when discussing any thread that is not of my exact point of view, but I seek that out in an effort to expand my mind through differing points of view. Thats why I am on this forum. Im not here to spout off what I think reality is, and attack those who do not agree with me. I am here to express my opinion so that others may gain something from it, and I am also here to hear others views, so I may gain something from it.

I would like to think that I have an open mind, and try to maintain that openess when I can.

[zero]

I do believe in reincarnation. I do not believe that this particular body has anything to do with who I truly am. I am me, and the body is a limited expression of myself, and my unique personallity, of which the body does not determine.

People with traumatic head injuries can undergo dramatic personality changes. Why is that, suppose?

What makes your consciousness you, other than the experiences it has?

I may feel somewhat unfortable when discussing any thread that is not of my exact point of view, but I seek that out in an effort to expand my mind through differing points of view. Thats why I am on this forum. Im not here to spout off what I think reality is, and attack those who do not agree with me. I am here to express my opinion so that others may gain something from it, and I am also here to hear others views, so I may gain something from it.

I would like to think that I have an open mind, and try to maintain that openess when I can.

So, you don't have an opinion (perhaps even a strong belief) that reality is a certain way? You don't have an emotional investment in believing as you do?

[measle_weasel]

People with traumatic head injuries can undergo dramatic personality changes. Why is that, suppose?

I dont know.

What makes your consciousness you, other than the experiences it has?

I would agree with what you are proposing. I do not, though, know exactly how this is implemented, nor the factors behind its implementation.

So, you don't have an opinion (perhaps even a strong belief) that reality is a certain way?

I do have an opinion, based on my experiences and my ponderings. I used to have a strong belief, but as I learn more about reality, and realize how little I did know, even just a short time prior, I do not allow a strong belief to form, as it would be logical to assume that if I knew so little in the past, relative to what I know now, then what I know now will be so little relative to what I will know in the future. Thus forming a strong, solid, unshakable belief in almost anything right now, would be foolish, is it would just lead to major pain when enough information accumulated as to make my belief highly improbable, or major denial, in not wishing to acknowledge that fact.

You don't have an emotional investment in believing as you do?

A tiny one, as I cannot help not being totally objective. But, that is my aim: total objectivity, the best I can.

I used to have many very strong beliefs, as maybe most of us did at some point. And it took a long time to accept that based on my continually expanding preception of reality, and knowledge gained over time, that those beliefs were not based on anything I could verify. Or anything I considered probable.

Ok, that was the long answer I guess. Short answer is this: I have some emotional attachment to what I belief is most likely to be true, but atempt to consciencely minimize that feeling, as to not get stuck into a paradigm that I am unwilling to remove myself from. Does that answer the question?

[zero]

I do have an opinion, based on my experiences and my ponderings. I used to have a strong belief, but as I learn more about reality, and realize how little I did know, even just a short time prior, I do not allow a strong belief to form, as it would be logical to assume that if I knew so little in the past, relative to what I know now, then what I know now will be so little relative to what I will know in the future. Thus forming a strong, solid, unshakable belief in almost anything right now, would be foolish, is it would just lead to major pain when enough information accumulated as to make my belief highly improbable, or major denial, in not wishing to acknowledge that fact.

That seems sensible to me as well. It also seems to me that it would take a strong person to live with uncertainty for so long for the sake of seeking truth.

I used to have many very strong beliefs, as maybe most of us did at some point. And it took a long time to accept that based on my continually expanding preception of reality, and knowledge gained over time, that those beliefs were not based on anything I could verify. Or anything I considered probable.

But you will continue to seek truth, won't you? You won't give up, though it may be hard?

[measle_weasel]

That seems sensible to me as well. It also seems to me that it would take a strong person to live with uncertainty for so long for the sake of seeking truth.[quote]

Thanks. I try. And its difficult sometimes.

But you will continue to seek truth, won't you? You won't give up, though it may be hard?

Seeking the truth is a means to an un-attainable ends. Most would say that finding the truth would be the ends, but how can there be any ends within an eternity? And ends came to would be false ends, and would really be nothing more than stagnant means.

I realize more and more everyday, that there is no destination, there is only the journey, and it is never-ending.

Maybe we are already living in timelessness.

[zero]

Enjoy the strawberries, my friend.;)

Infinity videoclip - YouTube

[harris999]

If we exist now, we exist forever. energy cannot be destryoed only changed into other forms. Scientists openly say that atoms are made up of pure energy.

Before we were born, according to the no-afterlifers, we didnt exist, when we die, we dont exist. but when we are alive we exist? by existing right now you must have existed before you were born and after it. (some other guys words on this forum called cleftasunder. which if you think about it, makes alot of sense.)

Other snippets of proof:

1: human body is made up of cells. Millions of them. These cells all die, and every couple of years you get a complete new body as it were. But your personality/you remain the same? how is that possible? because concienceness does not exist in cells. its the only possible explanation.

2: hundreds and thoasands of accounts of people who have died and came back tell of an afterlife. are they all lieing? every single one of them?

3: What is alive and what is dead? Is a car alive? It moves like we do, eats petrol, and creates energy with it. And requires a driver. Our driver is our brain. Some cars can even drive on their own! Cars give out waste through the exaust alot like we do too xD does this mean a car is alive? Of course not, because it doesnt have a soul/conceincness..

4: if there is no afterlife, whats the point? why are we even here in the first place. The world is so perfectly balanced and amazing, yet people believe it all was created by chance. Do you realise how much chance you would need to create the world how it stands today? its ridiculus.

5: Ancient eygptians believed in an afterlife. They beleived when we died we went through a kinda exam. Where you learn the answers in life, and answer them when you die. If you didnt pass the "exam" you were reincarnated again to learn once more and so on and so on. I beleive the eygpytions were more advanced than we are today. And knew alot about things we do not. Just do abit of research and you realise they know what they are talking about.

If there isnt an afterlife, well this post doesnt really matter, because i wont be able to know im wrong. BUT i know there is. I can feel it somehow, i cant really explain it. Maybe im delusional, but that means most of all humanity is too.

[Anders Lindman]

1: human body is made up of cells. Millions of them. These cells all die, and every couple of years you get a complete new body as it were. But your personality/you remain the same? how is that possible? because concienceness does not exist in cells. its the only possible explanation.


Good point. Some scientists say that consciousness is an epiphenomenon, something that appears because of our complex brains. That seems to me more like a cop out than some actual scientific proof.

It is true that when material stuff is put together in certain ways it can create new functionality, like a car which is more than the stuff which it is made of, but as you said, a car is not a living being with consciousness.

So the epiphenomenon hypothesis for consciousness is dubious.

Also, as Rupert Sheldrake has proved scientifically, telepathy is real. And as quantum mechanics has proved, seemingly totally separate particles are not totally separate and instead are non-locally connected (that is in fact obvious since reality is an interconnected whole where everything is connected to everything else, similar to the holographic nature of reality that Michael Talbot, David Bohm, Karl Pribram and David Icke and others have talked about).

So the question is, where does consciousness begin and where does it end?

[zero]

Consciousness doesn't begin or end, it seems. There are only degrees of complexity in which it expresses itself. The consciousness of an insect is not "inferior" to that of a human.

As for the holographic nature of reality, it would seem that all of existence is still in an entangled state, though we perceive it as separate "objects"...

It would also appear that the mind is a reflection of a decentralized awareness...

The question is, is form a means to an end? Or an end in itself?

After all, is it not a fact that everything is the Universe, including us? Intentional or not, living beings appear to be a kind of sensory apparatus that the Universe has developed, with which it perceives itself.

What is the point of music? To reach its conclusion?

[zero]

http://images.exoticindiaart.com/madhuban/cosmic_form_of_dancing_shiva_pe39.jpg

[father ted]

Yeah sure, we're living in it!

[haukipesukone]

Yeah sure, we're living in it!

Is that a reference to Final Fantasy X? That this is Zanarkand, and we're the fayth?


Hmm, interesting notion. Maybe what we know as the otherworld is really the land of the living. We are the dead dreaming we are alive.

[father ted]

Is that a reference to Final Fantasy X? That this is Zanarkand, and we're the fayth?


Hmm, interesting notion. Maybe what we know as the otherworld is really the land of the living. We are the dead dreaming we are alive.

No, that's a refference to reincarnation.;)

[tattooverb]

depending on your level of advancement you might be able to remember past lives even without hypnosis
i get flashes of mine sometimes
as for afterlife it is more like in between lives
at lest for most of us
there is a interesting book on in between lives and presents one or two possibilities you might not have heard before
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y249/Dimhirwen/Blog/journey.jpg
i am currently reading this book and some bits ring very true

[haukipesukone]

1: human body is made up of cells. Millions of them. These cells all die, and every couple of years you get a complete new body as it were. But your personality/you remain the same? how is that possible? because concienceness does not exist in cells. its the only possible explanation.


That's not entirely true. Your personality changes as well. Your body changes, but there's no complete overhaul. The changes are based on the old model of the body, the same with personality. The change is very gradual.

[zero]

That's not entirely true. Your personality changes as well. Your body changes, but there's no complete overhaul. The changes are based on the old model of the body, the same with personality. The change is very gradual.

Exactly. Personality isn't Self.

[father ted]

depending on your level of advancement you might be able to remember past lives even without hypnosis
i get flashes of mine sometimes
as for afterlife it is more like in between lives
at lest for most of us
there is a interesting book on in between lives and presents one or two possibilities you might not have heard before
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y249/Dimhirwen/Blog/journey.jpg
i am currently reading this book and some bits ring very true

Read it, great book and recomend it to everyone.

[armoured_amazon]

1: human body is made up of cells. Millions of them. These cells all die, and every couple of years you get a complete new body as it were. But your personality/you remain the same? how is that possible? because concienceness does not exist in cells. its the only possible explanation.

That's right. We merely reside in our bodies, we are not of them. :)

[zero]

I disagree.

[zero]

“Really, the fundamental, ultimate mystery - the only thing you need to know to understand the deepest metaphysical secrets - is this: that for every outside there is an inside and for every inside there is an outside, and although they are different, they go together.” - Alan Watts.

[measle_weasel]

The question is, is form a means to an end? Or an end in itself?

Its a means with no real end, as any temporary ends is just a means to another means. How can eternity have any ends?

After all, is it not a fact that everything is the Universe, including us? Intentional or not, living beings appear to be a kind of sensory apparatus that the Universe has developed, with which it perceives itself.

Just because we are a part of the universe, does not mean we are the universe. A hose line is part of a car, but that doesnt mean the hose line IS the car. The car is the sum of its parts, just as the universe is.

That's not entirely true. Your personality changes as well. Your body changes, but there's no complete overhaul. The changes are based on the old model of the body, the same with personality. The change is very gradual.

I would agree. Personallity is made of the sum total of all the experiences you have ever had, which is what makes everyone unique.

Hmm, interesting notion. Maybe what we know as the otherworld is really the land of the living. We are the dead dreaming we are alive.

Maybe :)

[lightgiver]

Nope.

When you die, that which is YOU (your consciousness) dies with you and that is that.

There is no proof at all that there is a spirit, soul or anything else that lives on.

The only thing that lives on is the basic elements that are in your body, which go on to form new organisms or just sit in the earth while your body decomposes.


Its sad really but when you stop and think about it, the second you lapse into death, you will not know you lived, so there will be nothing to be sad about right. Sadness is something you will only know while alive, but after you die, as I said, you will simply exist in the minds of others as a memory, until they are gone and you are forgotten.

Think of it this way:
Do you really think somebody who died 1000 years ago cares that he is dead? No, because he cant. He is dead. It doesn't matter to him what sort of life he lived, how he died, etc, etc. He is gone. Our memory of him is gone. He may as well have never lived.

As for there being "life after death", there is absolutely NO proof of that that can be scientifically verified.




We've made up Religions because it comforts us and adds some meaning to life. Those that hate religions make up other "new age" type scenarios, but the brutal fact is that there is NO scientific fact that backs up that there is a life after death.


Its really sad, but as I said, as soon as you die, your conscious will cease and you wont care either way, just like those dead before us do not care if they lived a good or bad life or whatever. They are dead. Its over. Done. Finito.


If believing in the Bible, Allah, Re-incarnation, etc, etc makes life easier to bear, then go for it, but in the end, there is no proof for these things, just the statements that people make, which in 100% of cases can never be proven.

To be honest i am getting more inclined to feel this way when i look at the state of things,even though i would like to think there is something after this life of suffering,and that there is such a thing as karma,but the karma issue is what i have issues with,according to buddhism you reap what you sow?so if that is the case how the hell do these tyrants get into these positions they get into ,they tyrannize everyone and always appear to get away with it,and i see a lot of descent folk getting shit on,funny thing that karma,now if there was instant karma that would be different,but like you say maybe you just die and that is it, ashes to ashes, dust to dust,and the religion issue is just a tool to control the masses,like you say a comfort thing,with everything i see in this life and the history of the planet is nothing but death destruction and wars and at the end of it you get sick and die,how can there be anything good in that,i would not wish that on my worst enemy,even though i have none;)

[lakkimakki]

Alright boffins, lets get this sorted once and for all, is there an afterlife?

We need documentries, links, thoughts, analysis, all of it.


LETS GET THIS SORTED. :mad::mad::mad:

:)

read this

http://www.rosicrucian.com/rcc/rcceng00.htm

[pri01]

Let's face it. Life is absolute shite, and not just for humans;animals are engaged in an arms race of some sorts to simply survive. Our existence is very well staged and orchestrated.:):rolleyes:

[oceano]

Life is beautiful. Yes there is existence "after" what you call life. Do not fret though. All will be revealed in good time as it has been countless times before. You know, I find it really pointless debating this topic. What purpose does it serve ? If I could show you proof of existence after death what would you do with that info ? Similarly if I could prove there is nothing after death what would that mean to you ? I understand curiosity...very well in fact, but being curious means being open to all possibilities. There either is existence after "life" or there is not. So what ?? It's not like you can stop your body from dying IF you knew for a fact that there is nothing after life. You will still have to leave this realm sooner or later and THEN you will know the truth.:rolleyes:

[armoured_amazon]

Life is beautiful. Yes there is existence "after" what you call life. Do not fret though. All will be revealed in good time as it has been countless times before. You know, I find it really pointless debating this topic. What purpose does it serve ? If I could show you proof of existence after death what would you do with that info ? Similarly if I could prove there is nothing after death what would that mean to you ? I understand curiosity...very well in fact, but being curious means being open to all possibilities. There either is existence after "life" or there is not. So what ?? It's not like you can stop your body from dying IF you knew for a fact that there is nothing after life. You will still have to leave this realm sooner or later and THEN you will know the truth.:rolleyes:

+1

The other day, God made Himself known to a couple of hundred people who all witnessed it and were overjoyed/gobsmacked/in awe.

However, I doubt all of the non-believers will change their lives over seeing this miracle *sigh*

[zero]

Its a means with no real end, as any temporary ends is just a means to another means. How can eternity have any ends?

What is the meaning of a means without an end then? An infinite cycle, while perhaps reassuring in the sense of constant rebirth (therefore no "true" death), seems rather pointless....whereas an existence that actually can end, i.e. "die", seems to gain its meaning for that very reason.

But you have said that you believe death renders life meaningless, and only a never-ending existence would be truly meaningful, right?...

Just because we are a part of the universe, does not mean we are the universe. A hose line is part of a car, but that doesnt mean the hose line IS the car. The car is the sum of its parts, just as the universe is.

Splitting hairs, aren't you? Whatever the form, it is all made of the same "stuff", isn't it?

[abrilliantone]

Alright boffins, lets get this sorted once and for all, is there an afterlife?

We need documentries, links, thoughts, analysis, all of it.


LETS GET THIS SORTED. :mad::mad::mad:

:)




click here (http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6226036544608625413) to watch a video for the answer to your question http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/scared010.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/)


click here (http://illuminatimatrix.wordpress.com/) to go to the website they talked about within the video http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/computer012.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/)


click here to watch a video to remind yourself of your true nature http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/whacky077.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/)






http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/think004.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/)

[hagbard_celine]

No

Are you after an MBA?:D;)

I hereby present you the Materialist Bravery Award for possessing the courage and fortitude in the face of the intolerable truth that there is no afterlife.:D

I wish I could win an MBA myself! But you see I believe in an afterlife! I need that comfort blanket!:p:D;)

[hagbard_celine]

Seriously though, I think that there's good reasons for believing in an afterlife:). The decline in psychical research over the last 100 years is reversing, and this may be because the scientists involved feel that they are nearing a breakthough. We've been discussing some of their findings on the forum like here: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42301

One of the most prominent investigators is Peter Fenwick. Here's a serious neuroscientist, not a "fringe loonie".

Naturally the Skeptics reject his findings, but then they are also emeshed in the illusion that they have a monopoly on objectivity. They do not.:rolleyes: They have yet to address the fact that MBA is a motive in denouncing the existance of an afterlife; and until they do the subject cannot be pronounced upon.

[measle_weasel]

What is the meaning of a means without an end then?

The meaning of a means would be to get to another means.

An infinite cycle, while perhaps reassuring in the sense of constant rebirth (therefore no "true" death), seems rather pointless....whereas an existence that actually can end, i.e. "die", seems to gain its meaning for that very reason. But you have said that you believe death renders life meaningless, and only a never-ending existence would be truly meaningful, right?...

Correct. If anything is to matter, there must be a changable outcome that actions can influence. The universe will someday end, in an estimated 10^150 years. At that time, the universe will have reached a state of total entropy, where no work can be done as potential energy has all been depleted. The universe will be a uniform blob of photons, with no volume of space discernable from another. While this may in someway support the "one" theory, it also supports the fact that no action taken prior to this time will have any effect on the outcome, as nothing can escape the ultimate fate of the universe. Anything you, or I, or anyone else does in their lifetime is meaningless if there is an end that cannot be changed. And the death of the universe is one of those things.

If you are given a choice of cards from a playing deck, but given foreknowledge that any card you pick will be the Ace of spades, does any action you take picking the card you will pick really matter? I would say no, the action is meaningless as the outcome was pre-determined. Knowing this, I dont know how anyone who thinks physical death is the end of existance could care about anything, unless they didnt really understand the principle behind the idea.

Actions that effect outcome have meaning. Actions that do not effect outcome, are meaningless. I choose to believe that actions have meaning, and that this universe is just an infintesmal bubble within eternity. You and others may indirectly choose that actions do not have meaning, and this universe is all there is to existence.

But if thats the case, it all comes back to my original question... if you will someday not exist, then the way you get to non-existence does not matter. So whats stopping you from killing yourself?

Splitting hairs, aren't you? Whatever the form, it is all made of the same "stuff", isn't it?

Im not splitting hairs. I think there is a very real difference between all things being "one" and all things being part of a whole, and Ive tried to give metaphores explaining that concept.

ed: And to clarify, again, I think the outcomes of actions are other actions.

[zero]

Great. Now I'm really depressed.:(

:p

[hagbard_celine]

Great. Now I'm really depressed.:(

:p

Hope you feel better soon.:)

What is the meaning of a means without an end then? An infinite cycle, while perhaps reassuring in the sense of constant rebirth (therefore no "true" death), seems rather pointless....whereas an existence that actually can end, i.e. "die", seems to gain its meaning for that very reason.

But you have said that you believe death renders life meaningless, and only a never-ending existence would be truly meaningful, right?...



This is what drove the Buddha in his search for Nirvana, a sipritual and mental state where one is freed from that trap.

[haukipesukone]

Correct. If anything is to matter, there must be a changable outcome that actions can influence. The universe will someday end, in an estimated 10^150 years. At that time, the universe will have reached a state of total entropy, where no work can be done as potential energy has all been depleted. The universe will be a uniform blob of photons, with no volume of space discernable from another. While this may in someway support the "one" theory, it also supports the fact that no action taken prior to this time will have any effect on the outcome, as nothing can escape the ultimate fate of the universe. Anything you, or I, or anyone else does in their lifetime is meaningless if there is an end that cannot be changed. And the death of the universe is one of those things.


What do you base that theory on? Are you so sure about entropy? I think at least Haramein disagreed with the idea. How do you "deplete potential energy"?

[measle_weasel]

What do you base that theory on? Are you so sure about entropy? I think at least Haramein disagreed with the idea. How do you "deplete potential energy"?

I base this theory on Heat death of the universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Im sure people disagree. But at the moment, I think the evidence points towards this conclusion for the universe.

You deplete potential energy using it all up :) Seriously though, it works like this:

If you have an X amount of a potential energy source, such as gasoline, that X amount of gas has the potential to produce Y amount of energy when burned. But, if you wanted to gather all the burned gas together, and reconstitute it back into its original form (liquid gas), the energy it would take to do so would be Z, and Z is always greater than Y. The difference between Z and Y is the energy that would be lost to entropy (assuming in this example that the by-products produced by the burning of the gas had no potential energy left)

Second law of thermodynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia may help if you want more information

[zero]

Hope you feel better soon.:)

Oh, I'm fine.

This is what drove the Buddha in his search for Nirvana, a sipritual and mental state where one is freed from that trap.

Hmm, perhaps the realization that there is no trap would be extrication enough.

[academylin]

Alright boffins, lets get this sorted once and for all, is there an afterlife?

We need documentries, links, thoughts, analysis, all of it.


LETS GET THIS SORTED. :mad::mad::mad:

:)


Of course there is. I read half of these replys, as there have been more since I read them ( the other day ) not read the new ones.
Theres clearly a lot of interest....... hmmmmmm:cool:

[hagbard_celine]

Oh, I'm fine.



Hmm, perhaps the realization that there is no trap would be extrication enough.


That was his point I think: that the perception of the endless trap of life-cycles was the very trap itself.:cool:

[zero]

That was his point I think: that the perception of the endless trap of life-cycles was the very trap itself.:cool:

It appears we can agree to agree.:)

It might have been more fun, however, had we disagreed.:D

[orbandsceptre27]

is there an afterlife?

- No.

What`s after the afterlife?

[impermanence]

Is there life before death? —that is the question! ~Anthony De Mello

[orbandsceptre27]

^ There is no death.

[orbandsceptre27]

Is there life before death? —that is the question! ~Anthony De Mello

I like your avatar :)

[impermanence]

^ There is no death.

There is ego death; the shattering of false illusions, and there is energy transformation; rotting corpse. For the self? There is no self, the ego is temporary illusion that dissipates when the brain shuts down, so yes there is no death because your life right now is an illusion. Afterlife for the self that you identify with now? --Back to the nothingness that was before birth. Wonderful. :D

Just a theory, anythings possible.

[impermanence]

I like your avatar :)

Would you believe it if I told you I was actually going to say the same to you but changed my mind at the last minute? :eek:

It's very beautiful. ;)

[oceano]

This question is like our screen names/ personalities on this forum asking whether there is existence when "we" log off. Of course there is. Many different levels. On the web we could choose to go to another website OR we could choose not to log on to the web at all.

[zero]

Anyone who thinks that the ego dies doesn't understand the ego or death.

The ego is nothing more than the focus of conscious attention.

orbandsceptre27 is right of course. There is no death.

[zero]

Ego is not an ephemeral ball floating around somewhere "inside" you, waiting to burst.

Closer to the truth, would be to liken ego to the point in a circle.

It doesn't exactly exist....but it works.;)

[zero]

I am well aware, of course, of the tendency of those who fashion themselves as "wise" or "spiritually-minded" to portray ego as a villain, the "root of all evil" as it were.

The problem stems from the misidentification of ego as your body-image.

[deca]

what comes after your life ........your kids life

why do you think they look after thier blood lines.....grow up , stop believing in fair tales ghost,goblins and comic book science

[impermanence]

Anyone who thinks that the ego dies doesn't understand the ego or death.




Anybody who thinks the ego is actually real has never tried a a big enough dose of psychedelics. :D

Nor do they understand psychology, neuroscience or meditation.

The ego is nothing but conditioning, programming, memories, fantasies ect ect, it is simply an arrangement of neurological data collected through ones life experence. When one is in the very present moment, total awareness with out opinion, one is not living through ego, one has no self, one simply is one with everything. The observer and the observed melt.

[zero]

Anybody who thinks the ego is actually real has never tried a a big enough dose of psychedelics. :D

Nor do they understand psychology, neuroscience or meditation.

The ego is nothing but conditioning, programming, memories, fantasies ect ect, it is simply an arrangement of neurological data collected through ones life experence. When one is in the very present moment, total awareness with out opinion, one is not living through ego, one has no self, one simply is one with everything. The observer and the observed melt.

Of course, the ego isn't exactly "real"...but first you must define "reality".:p

The ego is not your conditioning. Conditioning is a temporal sequence of events, based in biology.

The ego is not biological. It is more akin to a context filter.

[zero]

It must also be noted that, just as the dissolution of the body does not mean the end of what that body was composed of, neither does the dissolution of ego mean "death" as the word is commonly understood.

[impermanence]

Osho sums it up nicely in this article:

Ego - The false Center...

http://www.ajna.com/articles/osho/ego_the_false_center.php

[zero]

After all, dreaming is a form of ego dissolution.

[zero]

What you are referring to is another misidentification of ego.

[orbandsceptre27]

stop believing

:)

[zero]

Ego itself is not a false center. Ego is the only center possible in infinity.

Ego is not a mistake you made, nor a mistake God made.

[impermanence]

Ego itself is not a false center. Ego is the only center possible in infinity.

Ego is not a mistake you made, nor a mistake God made.

Baah, I fear we have a linguistic and belief system distortion between us, I shall continue no more. Always remember; we are all sharing subjective opinions here, there are no absolutes. :D

[zero]

Again: Anyone who thinks that the ego can "die" doesn't understand the ego or death.

The ego is nothing more than the focus of conscious attention. Orbandsceptre27 is right of course. There is no death.

Ego is not an ephemeral ball floating around somewhere "inside" you, waiting to burst. Closer to the truth, would be to liken ego to the point in a circle.

It doesn't exactly exist....but it works.

I am well aware, of course, of the tendency of those who fashion themselves as "wise" or "spiritually-minded" to portray ego as a villain, the "root of all evil" as it were.

The problem stems from the misidentification of ego as your body-image.

Of course, the ego isn't exactly "real"...but first you must define "reality".

The ego is not your conditioning. Conditioning is a temporal sequence of events, based in biology.

The ego is not biological. It is more akin to a context filter.

It must also be noted that, just as the dissolution of the body does not mean the end of what that body was composed of, neither does the dissolution of ego mean "death" as the word is commonly understood.

After all, dreaming is a form of ego dissolution.

What orbandsceptre27 was referring to is another misidentification of ego.

Ego itself is not a false center. Ego is the only center possible in infinity.

Ego is not a mistake you made, nor a mistake God made.

[impermanence]

nor a mistake God made.

As I said, we have a BS distortion between us. :D

[zero]

As I said, we have a BS distortion between us. :D

Would you care to debate it further? I'm interested in your ideas.:)

[zero]

For instance, what do you mean when you say there is no self?

Define that self for me please.

[zero]

After all, how can one be one with everything if they do not exist?

It seems to me, to say that self does not exist is to say that there is no perceiver, hence nothing there to perceive since the perceiver and perceived are inextricably intertwined.

Are you a materialist? By that I mean, do you believe there is only material without consciousness "out there" and your ability to perceive that material is some kind of fluke?

[hagbard_celine]

It appears we can agree to agree.:)

It might have been more fun, however, had we disagreed.:D

There's plenty of scope for that I'm sure!;)

[red_ram]

Again: Anyone who thinks that the ego can "die" doesn't understand the ego or death....

*whole post, not reprinted here to save space*



An excellent explanation, for me, of the ego.

[bulgariaole]

everything is energy, and energy cannot be destroyed. basic scientfic fact.

[zen_fox]

The fear of death is powerful and in it's fear it's possible that many have formed an image of an afterlife to add comfort to their lives, believing they will live forever thus helping to alleviate the fear of death.

[hagbard_celine]

The fear of death is powerful and in it's fear it's possible that many have formed an image of an afterlife to add comfort to their lives, believing they will live forever thus helping to alleviate the fear of death.

Not really, because at the end of the day we are social creatures. How we are seen by our fellow creatures will be a major factor in how our psyche evolves. The afterlife-deniers may claim that their opponents are the only ones afflictcted by wishful-thinking, but they're wrong.

The whole debate about whether there is an afterlife has become blighted by machismo.:mad: In the world of philosophy and science, to believe that consciousness is a mere product of electrochemical activity in the brain that is extinguished forever at death puts you on the pedestal of a “strong hero” who has the courage to accept the bleak reality of life; unlike the “weak and ignorant jellies” who need the comfort blanket of an immortality myth to keep them going!:rolleyes: Afterlife-deniers have become a kind of intellectual elite. They’re the equivalent of the boy at school who won everything at sports day and dated all the prettiest girls in the class. Therefore in this situation you could argue that Afterlife-denial is the most appealing position to take for the prestige it gives you:cool:. In fact I wonder how many afterlife-deniers secretly agree that there is an afterlife, but don't want to say so because they're afraid of being called wimps!:D:D

[smariot]

everything is energy, and energy cannot be destroyed. basic scientfic fact.

Conservation of energy doesn't guarantee life after death any more than the conservation of legos guarantees that lego houses can't be destroyed.

[rhydra]

I don't relish the thought of death though it's the method of death that is the part I'm not keen on. Will it be long, drawn out and painful, a suffocation that lasts days, a debilitating stroke, dementia, cancer or will it be instant, a quick death with a huge heart attack?

As for the being dead, I don't fear that at all. The body is just a vehicle, something for the soul to sit in.
Dying, hmm, not keen.
Death? Roll on death where is thine sting!:D

[academylin]

STILL A LOT OF INTEREST........
of course there is...
( a great big wonderful, over the rainbow kinda afterlife... else, why ever would we be here ? )
Linx

[rhydra]

I have seen part of a previous life, I'm as convinced as I was that yesterday existed. There are dreams, random, crazy things that happen, but there are memories which have a completely different feeling.

[bulgariaole]

Conservation of energy doesn't guarantee life after death any more than the conservation of legos guarantees that lego houses can't be destroyed.

what is life than? are we just a bunch of chemical reactions? if we are what todays science tells us we are, then there is no 'i', or 'u', there is no diffrence between me, my dog, and my chair, therefore there is no 'life'.

[allure]

I can't see how conscious individuality could possibly exist outside this life.

So no, I don't believe in an afterlife. Would you really want there to be one anyway?

[edit]

; )

[zero]

I can't see how conscious individuality could possibly exist outside this life.

So no, I don't believe in an afterlife. Would you really want there to be one anyway?

If by "conscious individuality", you mean a continuation of your present self (name, gender, birthplace, ect.)....then no, that is not the "afterlife".

But consider how much you have changed within this lifetime.