Damian Green arrest: MPs demand answers

[timezone]

Senior police officers and politicians will continue to face serious questions over the highly-controversial arrest of Tory immigration spokesman Damian Green.


http://d.yimg.com/i/ng/ne/pressass/20081129/02/791105691-green-arrest-mps-demand-answers.jpg#200,200

The frontbench MP was held for nine hours on Thursday and his offices and homes searched over his alleged involvement in the leak of information from the Home Office.

A detailed series of questions has been put to ministers by the Opposition about who knew in advance about what party leader David Cameron denounced as "heavy-handed" tactics.

Gordon Brown and Home Secretary Jacqui Smith have both insisted that ministers were not involved in any way in the decision to arrest Mr Green and that it was purely a matter for the police.

Much of the anger is being directed towards Speaker Michael Martin and the House of Commons authorities for allowing police into the Palace of Westminster to search Mr Green's Commons office.

Asked if Mr Martin had approved the move, a spokeswoman issued a terse statement, saying simply that: "There is a process to be followed and that was followed."

However, the Home Office confirmed that the police would have required permission from House authorities to carry out a search on the Commons premises.

Tory backbencher Douglas Carswell said that if it was confirmed that Mr Martin had authorised the raid, which some say breached Parliamentary privilege, he would be demanding his resignation.

"The purpose of the Commons Speaker is to preside over an institution that holds government to account - not to give the green light to police raids against legitimate opposition," he wrote on his internet blog.

The arrest has caused alarm and disquiet across Westminster, with Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg dubbing it "something you might expect from a tin-pot dictatorship" and veteran Labour former cabinet minister Tony Benn complaining of a "direct attack on Parliamentary democracy by the police".

[stelios]

This arrest was Ian Blair's parting gift to his Labour bum chums.
Britain is no better than Zimbabwe.

[jhado]

The 'night of the long-knives' won't be far away now.

They don't need knives now though, they find out you've got kiddy-porn on your 'pooter, or something.. The media are their knives.

[lumukanda]

funny how it's not heavy handed when it's a normal person...

[stelios]

Iain Dale’s Diary

November 27, 2008
It’s always dangerous to comment on breaking news stories. The full facts are rarely known, but in the last half an hour quite a bit of information has emerged, which should give all those who cherish our freedoms and democracy great cause for concern.

At 2pm today counter terrorism police arrested Damian Green at his constituency home in East Kent. He was brought to London and currently is detained awaiting interview. It is now 9.43pm and seven hours after his arrest, he has, apparently, still to be questioned. These are the tactics of a totalitarian state. According to reports, he was arrested for “aiding and abetting misconduct in public office”. I’m not sure which law pertains to this. Perhaps readers can enlighten us.

His “crime” has been to reveal Home Office statistics and misconduct which they tried to cover up. If it is now a crime for a politician to do this sort of thing then just think how many other people should have been arrested - Robert Peston being a good recent example. What about government ministers who relished leaking information about the PBR?

One of the most disturbing aspects of what we know so far is that the Police were permitted by the Serjeant at Arms and The Speaker to search Damian’s House of Commons office. Outrageous. I would guarantee that if Parliament had been sitting, they would never have dared. Their entry would have been barred. One MP I have spoken to tonight said that he would have physically barred their way and shouted for help to assist him in preventing their entry.


The general public should be appalled at these developments, as should the media. I am disturbed that both Sky News and the Telegraph are already speculating that Damian Green’s position as Shadow Minister is under threat. They should concentrate on the wider implications of this. If Green can be arrested by counter terror police, what about the journalists who then reported on the information Green allegedly gave them (detailed HERE)? First they came for the politicians - then they came for the journalists. It might be a well worn cliche, but there is a serious point to be made.

There is no way that this arrest could have happened without the involvement of Government ministers. We need to know who instigated it and if the Prime Minister, Home Secretary or Justice Secretary authorised it. One has to assume that Jacqui Smith was the lead Minister.

If the Government feels unconstrained about invoking anti terror legislation and deploying counter terror police at a whim, on issues completely unrelated to terrorism, where exactly are we heading?

We don’t yet live in a Police State, but one be forgiven on nights like this from wondering if we are headed that way.

UPDATE 11.09: To those who have questioned why David Davis is not all over the airwaves, I have just spoken to him. He has been speaking at a dinner in Essex this evening and is on his way back to London now, heading straight for the Sky studios. Not sure whether they know it yet though! Suffice it to say, his dander is well and truly up.

UPDATE 23.20: Boris Johnson has just released this statement…

The Mayor of London has expressed grave concern over the arrest of Conservative frontbencher, Damian Green. Boris johnson, who chairs the Metropolitan Police Authority expressed his concerns - in trenchant terms - ahead of his arrest. A spokesman said the Mayor finds it hard to believe that on the day when terrorist have gone on the rampage in India that anti terror police in Britain have apparently targeted an elected representative of Parliament for no greater crime than allegedly receiving leaked documents. The Mayor told the new acting commissioner of the Met that he would need to see convincing evidence that this action was necessary and proportionate. He suggested that this is not the common sense policing that people want when London faces a real potential terror threat and serious knife crime problem on the streets

[stelios]

Damian Green's wife describes 'most shocking six hours of my life'
Damian Green's wife described the night nine detectives burst into her home as the "most shocking six hours of my life". Alicia Green, a 51-year-old barrister, was alone at the couple's London property when police arrived to seize documents and computer files from his home.

Around 20 counter-terrorism officers reportedly worked on four separate but simultaneous raids on the shadow Immigration minister's homes in London and Kent, as well as his constituency and Commons offices.

"When I opened the front door, the police asked me if there were any children in the house and my blood ran cold.

"I assumed that something terrible had happened to Damian. This was a very traumatic experience. It was made even worse when my younger daughter arrived home from school and burst into tears when she saw that the house was full of policemen.

"She was very upset. What really alarmed me was that if I hadn't been there, the police would have broken in and my daughter would have come home from school to find her home full of detectives."

At one point the police tried to take computer files from her work which she prevented them from doing as they are legally privileged documents.

She said she found it "particularly unpleasant" that the officer took love letters Mr Green and her had sent each other when at university and dating.

Mrs Green added: "The officers were polite and respectful, but I felt they were also clearly embarrassed to be here. They actually looked a little sheepish.

"They removed documents, they took bank statements, it was all very distressing."

Mr Green was arrested on Thursday after obtaining several leaked documents.

He was held by police for nine hours, his mobile telephone was seized and his parliamentary email address frozen.

He was released on bail "on suspicion of conspiring to commit misconduct in a public office."


This is a totalitarian police state. Opposition MP arrested for exposing Labour

[alfrmo]

My own thoughts are that this is a "shot across the bows" of any "maverick" MP ie (one that has some integrity) to shut up or face the consequences. No doubt the PTB are interested in getting any dirt that can be used in future months, as a means of getting rid of Damien Green or any other MP considered "troublesome". The system needs compliant politicians.This is a shocking development, MP's get many letters from folks in dispute with local authorities & police, no doubt the could have been copied/removed. So much for confidentiality and liberty!. If they do this to one of their own, god knows what they have in store for us ordinary folks.:eek:

[keystone]

I don't believe that smug so-and-so of a Home Secretary when she says she knew nothing about it.

It's either corrupt politicians using the poliuce inappropriately or it's the police interfering in politics. Don't know which is worse.

What I do know is that under this government we have been sleepwalking towards the position where we now live in a police state in the UK!!

[91181]

'Speaker Martin must go': MPs unite in wake of unprecedented police raids on Tory MP and House of Commons





Speaker Michael Martin faced calls for his resignation last night over claims that he authorised the unprecedented police raid on the House of Commons.

MPs from all three main parties were appalled that detectives were given the green light to enter the Palace of Westminster and search Damian Green’s private office.

It is unheard of for an MP to be arrested and his office raided by police in connection with a leak inquiry.

Parliamentary orders, designed to ensure an MP’s attendance and work at Westminster cannot be impeded, would have prevented such action had the Commons been sitting, according to constitutional experts.

But officers appear to have waited until the parliamentary session ended on Wednesday before mounting their operation.

Mr Green’s computer and mobile phone are understood to have been confiscated, along with paper and electronic files.

Police were described by Tories as ‘aggressive’ as they marched into the seat of democracy, telling one senior party figure who was present as they searched Mr Green’s office: ‘You are at the site of a crime scene.’

Astonishingly, Mr Green’s parliamentary email account was disabled – leaving his constituents unable to contact him.


Speaker Michael Martin faced calls for his resignation last night over claims that he authorised the unprecedented police raid on the House of Commons.

MPs from all three main parties were appalled that detectives were given the green light to enter the Palace of Westminster and search Damian Green’s private office.

It is unheard of for an MP to be arrested and his office raided by police in connection with a leak inquiry.

Parliamentary orders, designed to ensure an MP’s attendance and work at Westminster cannot be impeded, would have prevented such action had the Commons been sitting, according to constitutional experts.

But officers appear to have waited until the parliamentary session ended on Wednesday before mounting their operation.

Mr Green’s computer and mobile phone are understood to have been confiscated, along with paper and electronic files.

Police were described by Tories as ‘aggressive’ as they marched into the seat of democracy, telling one senior party figure who was present as they searched Mr Green’s office: ‘You are at the site of a crime scene.’

Astonishingly, Mr Green’s parliamentary email account was disabled – leaving his constituents unable to contact him.

‘The purpose of the Commons Speaker is to preside over an institution that holds government to account – not to give the green light to police raids against legitimate opposition.

‘MPs cannot have confidence inMartin if he sanctioned this.’ Mr Carswell said he had asked the Speaker’s office if Mr Martin allowed the raid and was told: ‘There is a process to be followed that was followed.’

‘I am taking that as a yes,’ he said.

‘There needs to be a pretty good explanation as to why he sanctioned this raid.

If the Speaker can’t provide one, he should go. I have spoken to MPs on both sides of the Commons who are shocked and outraged by this.’

Such is the depth of the anger that MPs might even seek to delay next week’s Queen’s Speech by raising repeated points of order over the affair.

Former Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith wrote to the Speaker last night to protest at the ‘abuse of the principle of the supremacy of Parliament’.

Mr Duncan Smith told Mr Martin that he and other officers of the House had a ‘prime responsibility to make sure that the agencies of government do not consider it their right to treat Parliament like any other department or agency in the land’.

He demanded: ‘Who else will our constituents feel they can turn to, to settle legitimate grievances, if they come to believe that the police or any other agency can cow this House into subservience?’

M r Duncan Smith called for a parliamentary inquiry into the affair and an emergency debate as soon as Parliament returns next week.

Tory MP Ben Wallace wrote to the Serjeant demanding ‘urgent’ clarification of her role in agreeing to the raid.

‘As I am sure you are aware democracies have a long history of whistleblowers exposing when a government has sought to use deception as a way to cover its failures,’ he said.


SO WHAT ABOUT ALL THE LABOUR LEAKS?

While the police are looking at leaks, they might wish to look at Labour’s own track record.
This week’s emergency mini-Budget was the most widely-trailed financial statement of recent years – with details of a 2.5 per cent cut in VAT and a new 45p top rate of tax revealed well before Parliament was told.

Government sources have suggested the Tories got wind of some of their proposals and helped bring them into the public domain.

But others believe the information was leaked by Labour figures, possibly as part of a turf war between Numbers 10 and 11 Downing Street.

Tory MPs also contrast the treatment of the Damian Green case with that of a string of leaks to BBC economic editor Robert Peston.

They raised suspicions that a ‘mole’ inside Downing Street or the Treasury had passed Peston a string of market-moving banking ‘scoops’.

But Tory MP Greg Hands said: ‘The authorities refused to investigate.

There is a curious contrast between the two approaches to leaked information – the first involving massive movement of bank shares, which is potentially embarrassing to the Government, is not investigated, while the second, involving immigration leaks clearly in the public interest to Damian Green, prompts this unbelievably heavy-handed response.’

Gordon Brown had a long history of using leaked information against the then Conservative government during his time in opposition.

In the early 1990s, he scored a number of direct hits on John Major’s administration using leaked Whitehall documents on welfare crackdowns, utility companies, defence cuts and childcare.

Former Tory leader Michael Howard said yesterday: ‘If this approach had been in place when Gordon Brown was in opposition, he’d have spent half his time under arrest.’

Government leaks enabled Winston Churchill to warn in the 1930s of Britain’s failure to prepare properly for the looming Second World War.

And former MP Tam Dalyell used them to embarrass Margaret Thatcher over the sinking of the Argentine cruiser, the General Belgrano, during the Falklands War.

[keystone]

He should go and soon. A party political act by the one politician who is supposed to be above that.

On the radio last night Tony Benn and Michael Howard agreeing 100% with one another that this time they've gone too far.

[drhemp]

Speaker Martin has always shown himself to be biased towards Labour ever since he go the job, so this doesn't surprise me. Of course New Labour would never put someone into that job who was genuinely independent and above party politics.

I'm glad this MP was arrested as it has highlighted the arrogance of New Labour and maybe this time they have actually gone too far. Having had barbaric treatment metered out to myself in the past at the hands of the police for a non-crime, it is my hope that now such indignities have been suffered by a senior opposition politician, he and his colleagues will wake up to the true nature of this fascist Government and the police state they have introduced, and perhaps, bloody well speak out and start to do something to stop it.

[breezinreezin]

this sort of thing just churns my stomach. I just detest everything about New Labour. They stank from the outset. All sweet talking, groovy and trendy, but with an agenda rotten to the core.

[Ian2day]

It's all to do with...

[keystone]

Speaker Martin has always shown himself to be biased towards Labour ever since he go the job, so this doesn't surprise me. Of course New Labour would never put someone into that job who was genuinely independent and above party politics.His predecessor would never have allowed it.

I'm glad this MP was arrested as it has highlighted the arrogance of New Labour and maybe this time they have actually gone too far. Having had barbaric treatment metered out to myself in the past at the hands of the police for a non-crime, it is my hope that now such indignities have been suffered by a senior opposition politician, he and his colleagues will wake up to the true nature of this fascist Government and the police state they have introduced, and perhaps, bloody well speak out and start to do something to stop it.Yes perhaps this is (one of the) wake up call(s) that was sorely needed.

[breezinreezin]

I get the sense with New Labour that it's about testing just how far they can go with these sort of incursions. Always probing and testing to see how far they can go with reigning in our already limited freedom. But this is something new, something far more sinister in my book. When a party treats the opposition with such contempt and utilises the Police to do it, we ought to be worried.

[breezinreezin]

wake up to the true nature of this fascist Government

I really do think it's very important to be semantically clear here: this is a socialist government, not fascist, and the longer it's in power the more people are seeing what socialism really is. If you call something what it isn't, a fascist government, then you're misrepresenting it. It's important to state that this is a socialist goverment, because, in reality, socialism is as destructive to freedom as fascism and needs to represented as such.

Most of the big players have backgrounds of involvment marxism and are comrades at heart, fighting for the Neo Socialist NWO. Yes, New Labour has shed it's ties to old school Marxism, but so has China in a sense, both have adopted a model of pragmatic Socialism, but Socialism nevertheless.

[keystone]

I really do think it's very important to be semantically clear here: this is a socialist government, not fascist, and the longer it's in power the more people are seeing what socialism really is. If you call something what it isn't, a fascist government, then you're misrepresenting it. It's important to state that this is a socialist goverment, because, in reality, socialism is as destructive to freedom as fascism and needs to represented as such.

Most of the big players have backgrounds of involvment marxism and are comrades at heart, fighting for the Neo Socialist NWO. Yes, New Labour has shed it's ties to old school Marxism, but so has China in a sense, both have adopted a model of pragmatic Socialism, but Socialism nevertheless.

I agree we should be clear

Fascism
a political philosophy, movement, or regime that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

I don't care if it's right wing or left wing. This lot have developed into a bunch of fascists!!

[drhemp]

I really do think it's very important to be semantically clear here: this is a socialist government, not fascist, and the longer it's in power the more people are seeing what socialism really is. If you call something what it isn't, a fascist government, then you're misrepresenting it. It's important to state that this is a socialist goverment, because, in reality, socialism is as destructive to freedom as fascism and needs to represented as such.

Most of the big players have backgrounds of involvment marxism and are comrades at heart, fighting for the Neo Socialist NWO. Yes, New Labour has shed it's ties to old school Marxism, but so has China in a sense, both have adopted a model of pragmatic Socialism, but Socialism nevertheless.

This lot are a bunch of fascists and I shall continue to call them so at every opportunity.

[drhemp]

His predecessor would never have allowed it.


I doubt any of them would have.

[breezinreezin]

I agree we should be clear No you don't.

Fascism
a political philosophy, movement, or regime that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

I don't care if it's right wing or left wing. This lot have developed into a bunch of fascists!!

What is clear is that you just want to use that hackneyed word sloppily and to justify it with a cut and paste Wiki definition that's taken out of context to fit your argument. It's also clear that you don't care. So here's another cut and paste, from publiceye.org, to balance it out: Fascism is a form of extreme right-wing ideology that celebrates the nation or the race as an organic community transcending all other loyalties. It emphasizes a myth of national or racial rebirth after a period of decline or destruction. Hardly New Labour is it!

[breezinreezin]

This lot are a bunch of fascists and I shall continue to call them so at every opportunity. How childish you are. If you want play to fast and loose with the facts, you're no better than them and deserve any loss of freedom that comes your way.

[keystone]

No you don't.Don't presume to tell me what I think or not.

What is clear is that you just want to use that hackneyed word sloppily and to justify it with a cut and paste Wiki definition that's taken out of context to fit your argument.Bullshit. Its not from Wiki - its from my dictionary.

It's also clear that you don't care.You shoudl clean your windows far more often.

[rhydra]

At least we know, once and for all, with absolute certainty, that the police are not impartially upholding law and order but are subservient to the ruling party and are politically controlled. They should be seen as being the government in uniform and treated accordingly, the line between New Labour and the police has now disappeared.
They are not to be trusted, not to be talked to unless unless absolutely necessary, they are to be avoided, any contact should be filmed/recorded, any dialogue, arrests, cautions, must be explained and written down.

[stelios]

Fascism is a form of extreme right-wing ideology that celebrates the nation or the race as an organic community transcending all other loyalties. It emphasizes a myth of national or racial rebirth after a period of decline or destruction. Hardly New Labour is it!
New Labour = Old Labour = Same Shit

[breezinreezin]

New Labour = Old Labour = Same Shit

Sorry I don't get your point. Why have you quoted me in reference to this?

[joe911]

This was from the front page of the daily mail newspaper today
http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l425/tadahjoe/29112008378.jpg

[drhemp]

How childish you are. If you want play to fast and loose with the facts, you're no better than them and deserve any loss of freedom that comes your way.

How little understanding you have of the word fascism that you resort to calling me childish. How childish.

Oh I deserve the loss of freedoms that are coming my way, do I? I'm no better than those who have started illegal wars for oil that resulted in the deaths of over one million innocents? I'm afraid all I can say to that is go fuck yourself. How dare you? Fuck you!

[alfrmo]

I really do think it's very important to be semantically clear here: this is a socialist government, not fascist, and the longer it's in power the more people are seeing what socialism really is. If you call something what it isn't, a fascist government, then you're misrepresenting it. It's important to state that this is a socialist goverment, because, in reality, socialism is as destructive to freedom as fascism and needs to represented as such.

Most of the big players have backgrounds of involvment marxism and are comrades at heart, fighting for the Neo Socialist NWO. Yes, New Labour has shed it's ties to old school Marxism, but so has China in a sense, both have adopted a model of pragmatic Socialism, but Socialism nevertheless.

How can you call this a socialist government, this government is neither run by the workers or indeed run on behalf of the workers! so semantically it is totally incorrect, we are talking about a Capitalist government, run on behalf of big business, that does nothing to represent working class people.
I agree it isn't fascist also, as we do still have the right to organise (although this is being eroded on a daily basis) we can still be in trade unions etc so we aren't yet under fascism. It is also a fact that fascism which represents allegiance to the state etc in its original form ie under Mussolini wasn't based upon racial purity such as Hitler's Germany was fascism and nazism were quite differernt ideologies, we do need to be semantically correct!:confused:

[drhemp]

How can you call this a socialist government, this government is neither run by the workers or indeed run on behalf of the workers! so semantically it is totally incorrect, we are talking about a Capitalist government, run on behalf of big business, that does nothing to represent working class people.
I agree it isn't fascist also, as we do still have the right to organise (although this is being eroded on a daily basis) we can still be in trade unions etc so we aren't yet under fascism. It is also a fact that fascism which represents allegiance to the state etc in its original form ie under Mussolini wasn't based upon racial purity such as Hitler's Germany was fascism and nazism were quite differernt ideologies, we do need to be semantically correct!:confused:

It's 21st century fascism. No it's not the same as Hitler's fascism, though of course it has many similarities. Fascism evolves and BLiar/Broon's New Labour, as have Bu$h's Republicans, have made their own brand of fascism for the new millennium. Don't let them off the hook, call them what they really are, call them fascists! They don't deserve anything better.

[breezinreezin]

How little understanding you have of the word fascism that you resort to calling me childish. How childish.

Oh I deserve the loss of freedoms that are coming my way, do I? I'm no better than those who have started illegal wars for oil that resulted in the deaths of over one million innocents? I'm afraid all I can say to that is go fuck yourself. How dare you? Fuck you!

I understand that fascism and socialism are two very different ideologies, therefore i also understand the importance of making a distinction. You, by your cursing and show of emotionality, are as childish as I first thought.

[drhemp]

I understand that fascism and socialism are two very different ideologies, therefore i also understand the importance of making a distinction. You, by your cursing and show of emotionality, are as childish as I first thought.

Fuck you! Patronising twat.

[breezinreezin]

How can you call this a socialist government, this government is neither run by the workers or indeed run on behalf of the workers! so semantically it is totally incorrect, we are talking about a Capitalist government, run on behalf of big business, that does nothing to represent working class people.
I agree it isn't fascist also, as we do still have the right to organise (although this is being eroded on a daily basis) we can still be in trade unions etc so we aren't yet under fascism. It is also a fact that fascism which represents allegiance to the state etc in its original form ie under Mussolini wasn't based upon racial purity such as Hitler's Germany was fascism and nazism were quite differernt ideologies, we do need to be semantically correct!:confused:

Where and when was a socialist government ever run by the workers? Come on. The fact that that was never going to happen, was the reason for the Frankfurt School to convene and work out an alternative. They hit upon the idea of revolution by attacking culture and that's how socialism has spread. It's an inside job of changing opinions and altering attitudes over time, rather than have street parades of comrades thumping Das Kapital. And socialists have adapted to the fact that they cannot be divorced from the capitalist system, but can hijack it to their own ends. Look at China.

[alfrmo]

It's 21st century fascism. No it's not the same as Hitler's fascism, though of course it has many similarities. Fascism evolves and BLiar/Broon's New Labour, as have Bu$h's Republicans, have made their own brand of fascism for the new millennium. Don't let them off the hook, call them what they really are, call them fascists! They don't deserve anything better.

I can see your point dr hemp,but I think you are using the term fascist more as an insult than semantically that's all. But the global agenda supercedes what was fascism which was however distorted, unity of nation and defence of so-called national culture, many aspects such as intolerance of all opposition to their regime, and attacks on civil liberties in the interest of big business are classic fascist tactics, these are also replicated by so-called communist regimes that oppress the very workers in whose name they claim to rule! they all ultimately sing from the same hymnsheet, hypocritical, greedy, lying, self-serving bastards!
persuing a global strategy to rob humanity! Whether right-wing or left wing their global agenda is the same, the main thing is we must know our enemy!;)

[drhemp]

14 POINTS OF FASCISM

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism

From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights

The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause

The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism

Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.

5. Rampant sexism

Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

6. A controlled mass media

Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.

7. Obsession with national security

Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together

Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.

9. Power of corporations protected

Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated

Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts

Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment

Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption

Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.

14. Fraudulent elections

Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.


NOTE: The above 14 Points was written in 2004 by Dr. Laurence Britt, a political scientist. Dr. Britt studied the fascist regimes of: Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile).

The Bu$h administration scores very high pretty much on all of those points. New Labour do very well too on those definitions. Are we supposed to let New Labour off the hook, because they're not quite as fascisty as Bu$h or Hitler. Give them a few years, and they will be catching up. China is supposed to be a communist country, yet we all know they are fascists.

Democracy is an illusion. If they are not by definition fascists, they are certainly not by definition socialists. I should argue they are closer to fascists than socialists. Whatever, they're a bunch of evil corporate controlled cunts; is that better for you?

[drhemp]

I can see your point dr hemp,but I think you are using the term fascist more as an insult than semantically that's all. But the global agenda supercedes what was fascism which was however distorted, unity of nation and defence of so-called national culture, many aspects such as intolerance of all opposition to their regime, and attacks on civil liberties in the interest of big business are classic fascist tactics, these are also replicated by so-called communist regimes that oppress the very workers in whose name they claim to rule! they all ultimately sing from the same hymnsheet, hypocritical, greedy, lying, self-serving bastards!
persuing a global strategy to rob humanity! Whether right-wing or left wing their global agenda is the same, the main thing is we must know our enemy!;)

I agree with you mate. As I said, I call it 21st century fascism, be it from communist China or capitalist America, they both have fascist traits. As easily as one could argue that China is not a true communist country, one could also argue the Bu$h fascists' are not true capitalists. I don't know what it is, I left skool at 16 and have no degree in modern political sciences, so what the fuck would I know? I'm just a simple Devon boy; all I know is it's very wrong and the world is being ruled by very dark evil powers. I feel comfortable calling them fascists, whether it be as an insult or a clever political statement, I don't suppose they'll lose much sleep from me calling them that in any case.

[alfrmo]

Where and when was a socialist government ever run by the workers? Come on. The fact that that was never going to happen, was the reason for the Frankfurt School to convene and work out an alternative. They hit upon the idea of revolution by attacking culture and that's how socialism has spread. It's an inside job of changing opinions and altering attitudes over time, rather than have street parades of comrades thumping Das Kapital. And socialists have adapted to the fact that they cannot be divorced from the capitalist system, but can hijack it to their own ends. Look at China.

I agree regarding the frankfurt school, which was formed following the defeat of the left-opposition in Russia, to accommodate the Stalinist ideology of "Socialism in One Country". The consequences of this was massive persecution of organised labour within Russia in order to compete militarily and economically with the west. The frankfurt school was borne of the defeat of socialism!. The attacks on culture from above, represent this, it has nothing to do with workers running society, the tokenistic and single issue politics that have come from the ideas of the frankfurt school represent the fragmentation of and indeed co-option of many left-wing ideologues to working, and indeed accommodation to capitalism. China I agree was never run by the workers, it was run in the name of, by a guerilla army. There wasn't an organised working class at the time of Mao's ascension to power!, so in no way could it be called a workers society!.

[alfrmo]

I agree with you mate. As I said, I call it 21st century fascism, be it from communist China or capitalist America, they both have fascist traits. As easily as one could argue that China is not a true communist country, one could also argue the Bu$h fascists' are not true capitalists. I don't know what it is, I left skool at 16 and have no degree in modern political sciences, so what the fuck would I know? I'm just a simple Devon boy; all I know is it's very wrong and the world is being ruled by very dark evil powers. I feel comfortable calling them fascists, whether it be as an insult or a clever political statement, I don't suppose they'll lose much sleep from me calling them that in any case.

Nothing wrong with Devon mate, a large part of my grans family lost their lives due to fucking nazis bombing devonport in WW2. I too left school at 16, a bloody long time ago, and am sorry if I came across as being pedantic/stuck up because I'm not! the main thing is were on the same side in seeing these powers for what they are whatever colour flag they choose to wave! I would call them Global Fascists? who cares? they are the enemy!;)

[drhemp]

Where and when was a socialist government ever run by the workers? Come on. The fact that that was never going to happen, was the reason for the Frankfurt School to convene and work out an alternative. They hit upon the idea of revolution by attacking culture and that's how socialism has spread. It's an inside job of changing opinions and altering attitudes over time, rather than have street parades of comrades thumping Das Kapital. And socialists have adapted to the fact that they cannot be divorced from the capitalist system, but can hijack it to their own ends. Look at China.

Probably because there's never been a true socialist government. I've always come from a liberal background, so I've never been a big fan of Labour or Conservatives. I think all political parties in Britain today are controlled by the elite to promote the same agenda (including the Lib Dums). The current Labour administration is vile to any true liberal minded person who values the concept of democracy. Although, Labour have generally proven themselves to be incompetent to govern at every opportunity they have had to do so since Kier Hardy formed the Labour Party in 1900, I don't think you can historically call them evil scumbags out to serve the interests of the global elite, as you can fairly label New Labour now.

After WW2, Labour implemented the Beveridge Report (who was a Liberal) that sought to eliminate Want, Disease, Ignorance, Squalor and Idleness from society. The 1960s Labour Government of Wilson made massive liberal reforms, including the abolition of the censorship laws, and ended the illegality of homosexuality, to name but a few.

The founders of the Labour Party would turn in their graves if they saw the consequences of BLiar and Broon's policies. That's why the likes of Tony Benn, Michael Meacher, and countless other Labour figures (including much of the grass roots membership) cannot stand New Labour. What I cannot understand is why they don't realise the Labour Party is lost, get out, and get together to form a credible opposition to these 'fascists', sorry I meant 'hypocritical, greedy, lying, self-serving bastards'.

[breezinreezin]

The Bu$h administration scores very high pretty much on all of those points. New Labour do very well too on those definitions. Are we supposed to let New Labour off the hook, because they're not quite as fascisty as Bu$h or Hitler. Give them a few years, and they will be catching up. China is supposed to be a communist country, yet we all know they are fascists.

Democracy is an illusion. If they are not by definition fascists, they are certainly not by definition socialists. I should argue they are closer to fascists than socialists. Whatever, they're a bunch of evil corporate controlled cunts; is that better for you?

So that's your idea of determining whether a government is fascist or socialist, a tick box list of traits of questionable academic provenance. Jeez. Ok, lets go with it then.
New Labour:
1--patriotic nationlists (oh yes, NL just jump up and down to the sound of land of hope and glory)
2--Disdainful of human rights (er, who was in power when the Human Rights Act 1998 was made a statute)
3--Use of scapegoats (that's a given for the majority of us)
4--Supremacy of military (cough, splutter, no I really can't be bothered to dig up the statistics of just how much New Labour have scaled back spending on the armed forces)
5--Rampant Sexism (LOL, tell that to Jacqui Smith and all those other NL bitches)
6--Controlled mass media (well they're trying that's for sure, but then all totalitarian regimes will want to do that)
7--Obsessed with national security (ditto)
8--In cohorts with the church (New Labour would make the death of the church a national holiday and anyway PC has neutered the Christianity in the UK)
8, 9, 10 and so on and so forth.

Fast and loose with the facts again DrSpliff

[breezinreezin]

I'll let Vladimir Bukovsky explain, life's too short.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=aoUJI07a6GI
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_FVp8w_Oz0U&feature=related

[drhemp]

Nothing wrong with Devon mate, a large part of my grans family lost their lives due to fucking nazis bombing devonport in WW2. I too left school at 16, a bloody long time ago, and am sorry if I came across as being pedantic/stuck up because I'm not! the main thing is were on the same side in seeing these powers for what they are whatever colour flag they choose to wave! I would call them Global Fascists? who cares? they are the enemy!;)

Right on buddy. No you never came across as that at all, sorry if I came across as a bit rude, but then again, I've had a few pints of cider.

I originally come from Kingswear, which is the village on the other side of Dartmouth at the estuary of the River Dart, which had a lot of activity during the war. Oddly enough, I was searching through google only a few days ago, when I came across a web site with interviews with people who remembered the war, including an interview with my father Brian Bovey, who was young boy during the war. Sadly, dad died a few years ago, and I tell you man, this really bought some tears to my eyes.

Brian's bit is on page 7.

http://www.dartmouth-history.org.uk/content_images/upload/OOP%20Books/No16%20War%20Memories/No16%20MofW.pdf

My mother was also bombed out during the war in Eastleigh, my granddad took all the family to the shelter, the house was bombed, but they survived as they got out, the next door neighbors ignored the sirens and were killed.

I was a bit of an afterthought, so my parents were quite old when they had me, though fortunately my Mother is still around, and I can tell you the generation that lived through the war, and saw the real unpleasantness of war, are much more liberal minded and tolerant than many of today's politicians who were born after the war, and perhaps have forgotten what it is like to live under the shadow of fascism.

[breezinreezin]

I agree regarding the frankfurt school, which was formed following the defeat of the left-opposition in Russia, to accommodate the Stalinist ideology of "Socialism in One Country". The consequences of this was massive persecution of organised labour within Russia in order to compete militarily and economically with the west. The frankfurt school was borne of the defeat of socialism!. The attacks on culture from above, represent this, it has nothing to do with workers running society, the tokenistic and single issue politics that have come from the ideas of the frankfurt school represent the fragmentation of and indeed co-option of many left-wing ideologues to working, and indeed accommodation to capitalism. China I agree was never run by the workers, it was run in the name of, by a guerilla army. There wasn't an organised working class at the time of Mao's ascension to power!, so in no way could it be called a workers society!.

To believe that there is some kind of holy grail of a worker governed, non-hierarchical state is naive. All governments, left or right, are run by people and people are innately hierarchical, like most of the animal kingdom. Put a worker in power and he become the boss and will quickly forget his past life as a worker. Zimbardo put that one beyond doubt.

And that's why socialism is a crock. It's a fairy tale sold to the masses, by the few for the few. Who those few are I'll leave others to say, I have my own ideas.

[drhemp]

So that's your idea of determining whether a government is fascist or socialist, a tick box list of traits of questionable academic provenance. Jeez. Ok, lets go with it then.
New Labour:
1--patriotic nationlists (oh yes, NL just jump up and down to the sound of land of hope and glory)
2--Disdainful of human rights (er, who was in power when the Human Rights Act 1998 was made a statute)
3--Use of scapegoats (that's a given for the majority of us)
4--Supremacy of military (cough, splutter, no I really can't be bothered to dig up the statistics of just how much New Labour have scaled back spending on the armed forces)
5--Rampant Sexism (LOL, tell that to Jacqui Smith and all those other NL bitches)
6--Controlled mass media (well they're trying that's for sure, but then all totalitarian regimes will want to do that)
7--Obsessed with national security (ditto)
8--In cohorts with the church (New Labour would make the death of the church a national holiday and anyway PC has neutered the Christianity in the UK)
8, 9, 10 and so on and so forth.

Fast and loose with the facts again DrSpliff

I suspect you might have had some kind of academic training that has conditioned you into some kind of box and that you yourself have to put every political idea or organisation into some kind of box yourself, or you get very confused.

1. Labour do play on patriotism to justify their illegal wars
2. The Human Rights Act is just a ploy to con the sheeple into thinking they have human rights; 90 days detention without trial, support for the Bu$h regime that gave us Guantanamo Bay, ID cards, banning of demos outside Parliament, can't be bothered to go on
3. Labour always have scapegoats, whether it be single mums or hoodies, not to mention the Muslims wrongly accused of the false flag terrorist atrocities of 9/11 or 7/7.
4. So are you saying Labour didn't go along with Bu$h in Afghanistan and Iraq. So we've got cheapskate fascists who won't even properly fund the armies they send out to do their dirty work and participate in illegal wars; well it's not them who get killed from bad equipment, so they probably don't care.
5.Political Correctness is just another way they seek to control us, by telling us how we must think. Common Purpose boasts that it removes people's prejudices, well that is because they are conditioning people to believe we have prejudices they don't have in the first place.
6. So you admit they control the mass media, but they're not fascists, coz that doesn't fit into your outdated definition of what some brainwashed State-employed university or college lecturer told you what fascism and socialism are.
7. Yes they are obsessed with national security, to scare us, and to make the sheeple more willing to accept further curtailments on their freedoms by said fascists.
8. Well as a non-Christian, I should say that were a good thing, if only it were true. Phoney Tony was a happy clappy Christian who even used his faith, along with Bu$h, to justify his evil deeds. That muppet Broon also claims to be a Christain (if only there were a God to help us?) BLiar introduced City Academies, partly funded by the private sector, including Sir Peter Vardy, an evangelical fundamentalist Christian who thinks, no insists, that school children should be taught creationism and the Earth is only 6000 years old.

Oh and it's Dr Hemp, not Dr Spliff!

[breezinreezin]

Dr Hemp, stop trying to be right and lose some of that pride. This is a socialist government pushing for all the powers of a centralised state, a European Socialist State. This will be a disaster for you, for me, for all of us non-partisans, when it comes to pass.

A fascist dictatorship is a different animal altogether, lets be clear on that. I'm not going to argue with you anymore on this, if you don't buy it from me then do some reading on it and you'll soon realise it to be true. The reason I say it's important to be accurate about the ideology this government is guided by, is because it will help predict how things will develop. It's important to know all aspects of your enemy and this government should be considered to be an enemy.

[drhemp]

Dr Hemp, stop trying to be right and lose some of that pride. This is a socialist government pushing for all the powers of a centralised state, a European Socialist State. This will be a disaster for you, for me, for all of us non-partisans, when it comes to pass.

A fascist dictatorship is a different animal altogether, lets be clear on that. I'm not going to argue with you anymore on this, if you don't buy it from me then do some reading on it and you'll soon realise it to be true. The reason I say it's important to be accurate about the ideology this government is guided by, is because it will help predict how things will develop. It's important to know all aspects of your enemy and this government should be considered to be an enemy.

This is not a socialist Government, if you think it is, then more fool you. Read my posts, what I said was New Labour are a form of fascism, they have traits of fasicsm; I called them 21st century fascists. I don't need to do reading about ideologies to form an opinion like you seem to need to do.

Yes I consider this Government to be my enemy, they are evil, and yes in my book, they are fascists, albeit 21st century ones. It's all a label anyway, you wouldn't call Bu$h's Republicans socialists, yet they pretty much share the same goals as New Labour. Would you not call the Bu$h administration fascist?

Regards,

Chris.
P.S. A right doesn't become a wrong just because some smartarse says so.

[breezinreezin]

I don't need to do reading about ideologies to form an opinion like you seem to need to do.


This says everything about you, an escapist, pot smoking, tantrum throwing, boy/man with uninformed opinions. I hold you in contempt.

[drhemp]

This says everything about you, an escapist, pot smoking, tantrum throwing, boy/man with uninformed opinions. I hold you in contempt.

This says everything about you, an escapist, pot smoking, tantrum throwing, boy/man with uninformed opinions. I hold you in contempt.

I thought you said in the previous post that you were not going to argue with me any more on this, but of course, you couldn't resist, coming back with more of your rubbish.

Oh you smoke pot, therefore you everything you say is not valid, well if that what the books you have read tell you to think, I won't bother trying to deprogramme you. I'm sure Jacquie Smith and yourself would get along fine. Pathetic. How do you know if I smoke pot anyway? Actually I hardly touch the stuff these days, not that it would make any difference if I did.

I actually pity your arrogance in that you actually believe you are informed, I am pleased to live outside the bubble. I couldn't even be bothered to hold you in contempt you patronising idiot.

[size_of_light]

Keep the discussion civil, guys.

[drhemp]

It's very hard when you're dealing with such fools, but I'll try my best, anyway, I think I've said all there is to be said.

[breezinreezin]

I thought you said in the previous post that you were not going to argue with me any more on this, but of course, you couldn't resist, coming back with more of your rubbish.


The argument finished when I said it would, but of course that fact, like most, escapes you. I specifically came back to give you some feedback about your behaviour and how I perceive you.

[drhemp]

The argument finished when I said it would, but of course that fact, like most, escapes you. I specifically came back to give you some feedback about your behaviour and how I perceive you.

Yeah well it would upset the mods if I came back and posted how I perceive you! As much as I hate New Labour and the European Union, that does not mean I feel comfortable with anti-European / anti-socialist little Englander types.

[size_of_light]

It'll upset me if either of you keep playing the man and not the ball. :)

Cheers.

[breezinreezin]

that does not mean I feel comfortable with anti-European / anti-socialist little Englander types.

Phew. We got there in end. Another one outed, goodnight citizen hemp:D

[tyler]

and now....about the arrest of Damien Green?

Now that the egos have finished could we get back on topic?

[and justice for all]

and now....about the arrest of Damien Green?

Now that the egos have finished could we get back on topic?

I hear you my friend. ;)

-

This is one of the most crucial, perhaps even unprecedented incidents that happened in the British ‘democratic’ political realm in the last... it’s safe to say 20 years? Maybe more.
It’s plainly unbelievable.

It shows clear as day, the breakneck speed rising of the totalitarian British regime.

[alfrmo]

Right on buddy. No you never came across as that at all, sorry if I came across as a bit rude, but then again, I've had a few pints of cider.

I originally come from Kingswear, which is the village on the other side of Dartmouth at the estuary of the River Dart, which had a lot of activity during the war. Oddly enough, I was searching through google only a few days ago, when I came across a web site with interviews with people who remembered the war, including an interview with my father Brian Bovey, who was young boy during the war. Sadly, dad died a few years ago, and I tell you man, this really bought some tears to my eyes.

Brian's bit is on page 7.

http://www.dartmouth-history.org.uk/content_images/upload/OOP%20Books/No16%20War%20Memories/No16%20MofW.pdf

My mother was also bombed out during the war in Eastleigh, my granddad took all the family to the shelter, the house was bombed, but they survived as they got out, the next door neighbors ignored the sirens and were killed.

I was a bit of an afterthought, so my parents were quite old when they had me, though fortunately my Mother is still around, and I can tell you the generation that lived through the war, and saw the real unpleasantness of war, are much more liberal minded and tolerant than many of today's politicians who were born after the war, and perhaps have forgotten what it is like to live under the shadow of fascism.

I read the link and it is really moving and shows what you Dad went through. we must never forget what our families went through, this is why I try not to use the word fascism lightly or out of context as it can sometimes be. My Nan came from Devonport and lost lots of relatives through Nazi bombing, and listening to her stories as I used to, and to those of my Mum who is still alive but went through the blitz in London brings home the futility and evil of war. This is what makes me so angry, Britain and America acted no differently in its bombing of Iraq. I find it strange the amount of folks with extreme right-wing views who spend their time attempting to "out" anyone with a social concience and branding them as socialists, when they never come clean about their politics.....;)
You can almost hear the Horst Wessell song in the background of some of them! I fully agree with your posts dr hemp, we will never lose sight of the value of humanity and fight this globalist capitalist agenda to run the world under their world government.:)

[amandaooo]

Listening to the journalist Sally M....? whose case is very similar on BBC . She has made some really good points - and was allowed to without interruption. I shall try and post the interview.

Ps - Are Jaqui Smith and Harriet Harman the same woman?

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/11_02/037JacquiSmith_468x512.jpg
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:dJC4QVBaQB_dlM:http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00017/harman_17391t.jpg

[breezinreezin]

and now....about the arrest of Damien Green?

Now that the egos have finished could we get back on topic?

If you took the time to read the thread in it's entirety, you'd see that it was about something equally as serious: facts, and being about to support what you say with evidence, rather than cast emotive, spurious labels. I also think this is as serious as it gets, but it's important to show that this is post-perestroika socialism in practice and not people's fluffy ideas of socialism. Dr Hemp is sympathetic to the left and so was eager to say that the left is right.

[drhemp]

If you took the time to read the thread in it's entirety, you'd see that it was about something equally as serious: facts, and being about to support what you say with evidence, rather than cast emotive, spurious labels. I also think this is as serious as it gets, but it's important to show that this is post-perestroika socialism in practice and not people's fluffy ideas of socialism. Dr Hemp is sympathetic to the left and so was eager to say that the left is right.

Boy do you put words into people's mouths. I am not a socialist, and never said I was; I do certainly have more affinity to genuine socialist politicians such as Tony Benn or Michael Meacher, than I do with the current creeps that make up New Labour, who you believe are socialists. Yes I'm quite happy to admit I dislike New Labour, as my beliefs are left leaning, and New Labour are right leaning; though I like to think of myself more as a liberal (not to be confused with a Lib Dem).

Yes on to Damian Green, if you think that arresting an opposition politician for releasing embarrassing information about the Government is more the actions of a socialist government than a fascist government, then I'm glad I don't read the same books as you do.

The thing is, when you have researched the New World Order and global political issues, as I have for many years, you realise that it makes little difference what label the Government gives itself, as they are all puppets of big corporations there to serve and further the agenda of the New World Order.

[jimmi]

Referring to the 'outraged of Westminster' comments at the start of this thread....................."they don't like it up 'em Mr. Mainwaring":D

And as far as the rest of this lively debate goes........it doesn't matter what the 'ism gets called if it takes us into that totalitarian state we all want to stop happening, does it?

We should be aware of the fact that all the centres of power are controlled not by the ballot box but from the shadows so let's all come together for one cause and kick hank marvin's head in instead!

[breezinreezin]

Boy do you put words into people's mouths. I am not a socialist, and never said I was;

No, I don't put words in peoples mouth, but you do here. Show me where I did. I never said you were a socialist, I said you were sympathetic to socialist ideas and you have just confirmed that. You pompously state that you have researched the NWO and globlal politics for years, but can't get a simple fact like that right. Disprove me, with an attribute, and show me where I actually called you a socialist--and don't go using the flippant citizin hemp remark i made.

[blondina1]

breezinreezin stop wasting peoples time. U want an answer don't hog the OP's thread. Make your own in the rant room or send Dr. Hemp a pm.

Maybe a MOD could clean this mess up?

[breezinreezin]

breezinreezin stop wasting peoples time. U want an answer don't hog the OP's thread. Make your own in the rant room or send Dr. Hemp a pm.

Maybe a MOD could clean this mess up?

Mind you own business.

[drhemp]

No, I don't put words in peoples mouth, but you do here. Show me where I did. I never said you were a socialist, I said you were sympathetic to socialist ideas and you have just confirmed that. You pompously state that you have researched the NWO and globlal politics for years, but can't get a simple fact like that right. Disprove me, with an attribute, and show me where I actually called you a socialist--and don't go using the flippant citizin hemp remark i made.

Well as we are playing at being a pedantic tit, what I actually said was "I have more affinity to genuine socialist politicians such as Tony Benn or Michael Meacher, than I do with the current creeps that make up New Labour, who you believe are socialists."
If you didn't directly call me a socialist, you certainly implied I was a socialist, not that it's a dirty disgusting crime to be a socialist, as Tory Daily Mail reading types might think. Not that I care what you call me, you said (or implied) a lot of untrue things about me, merely because I didn't like being told I was as bad as our criminal Labour Government, simply for calling them fascists (which they are).

I don't really believe that you can box politics in left and right, as it give a very closed minded narrow view of the world. I often laugh at how Tory types hate New Labour, when in fact, all New Labour did was continue the policies of the previous Conservative administration. Politics in this country is too tribal, and that's one of the main reason the political system has failed us so badly. Yes I have studied the NWO and global politics for years; I recommend you try it; you might even learn something!

Anyway, I can't be bothered to argue anymore with you about left/ right politics, as it isn't something I believe in. As Jimmi very wisely posted in the previous post, it doesn't matter what 'ism is doing all this stuff.

So over to you for your last word .... you will not get a reply, as I've got to feed the kids and then I'm off to the pub for a pint! Maybe I'll come back pissed and hurl abuse at you at 12.30 am?

[drhemp]

or send Dr. Hemp a pm.



LOL please don't.

Anyway, I'll shut up and not take the bait.

[breezinreezin]

If you didn't directly call me a socialist, you certainly implied I was a socialist, not that it's a dirty disgusting crime to be a socialist, as Tory Daily Mail reading types might think.

Lol. How predictable. Someone considers Socialism a threat, thererore s/he must be a Daily Mail reading Tory. I can see I'm dealing with a serious scholar here. Go on, off to your office to study some more, and careful not to let too many facts get in the way of a good yarn, hic.

[truthsayer]

I often laugh at how Tory types hate New Labour, when in fact, all New Labour did was continue the policies of the previous Conservative administration.

You don't know how good it is to hear someone else say this! I've been saying this for years and generally get frowned at, but then I do live in a very conservative area. You've made my day!

[orderoutofchaos]

breezinreezin stop wasting peoples time. U want an answer don't hog the OP's thread. Make your own in the rant room or send Dr. Hemp a pm.

Maybe a MOD could clean this mess up?


Blondina1 you are HOT!!:D

[alzee]

The Speaker announced in the COmmons today, that NO Search Warrant was produced when the police arrived to search Damina Green's offices. They also neglected to inform the Sergeant at Arms that she could refuse the search.

Was this news already in the public domain, did I simply miss it?

[1694]

-Illegal invasion of foreign countries
-One giant nationalised bank
-Right wing supporters purged from civil service
-Opposition policitians arrested
-Soon to be state subsidized workforce

History will not judge us kindly.

[breezinreezin]

How earnest does this Scottish turncoat sound here. Gate..horse...bolted..next time..blah..de.blah

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7762005.stm

[91181]

First i heard of the no warrent .. Its like there saying ''look we can do what the fuck we like and you cant stop us '' ..




Orewlls 1984 here we come ..

[matthew84]

The Nazi's were National Socialists. And Fascists.

This labour government is in collusion with the banking system and is establishing a CORPORATE SOCIALIST STATE.

Democracy is in its death throes.

They are taking the worst aspects of socialism and the worst aspects of unfettered capitalism to force global control on all of us.

The debate about fascism/socialism is based on a false dichotomy.

This is entirely the trap of confusion they want you to fall down.

Beware.

See beyond.

[drhemp]

The Nazi's were National Socialists. And Fascists.

This labour government is in collusion with the banking system and is establishing a CORPORATE SOCIALIST STATE.

Democracy is in its death throes.

They are taking the worst aspects of socialism and the worst aspects of unfettered capitalism to force global control on all of us.

The debate about fascism/socialism is based on a false dichotomy.

This is entirely the trap of confusion they want you to fall down.

Beware.

See beyond.

Absolutely, you are dead right!

[tracker]

when Brown leaks info its for the good of the poeple , when some one else tells us just how bad the government is doing .

its an act of terrorism and justified under the "national security" stuff .

just because he told us that 50,000 ilegal imagrants are here most are in the security industry and a cleaner who is an ilegal worker works in the houses or parlaiment .

now if thats a national security issue ,

then we have to ask our selves .

is it time we walked into parlaiment and booted them and their consortiam of ilegal imagrant employers and protectors who hide them ?


maybe we should .

coz one thing is sure .
at the moment , we have evil crime swinderling arms selling , drug pushing ,ilegal imagrant smugllers in our government !:cool:

[drhemp]

Yes we have a Government of goons, liars and criminals. Some of them are simply plain stupid and not even aware of what they are doing, however, a lot of them are pure evil and know exactly the consequences of their actions.

[Ian2day]

Something else to give it all a twist.

Britney does not write her own lyrics. She is being controlled by the very same people who have stolen my IP. Is there any similarity's between my claiming to of been drugged and what she is doing in the media? Believe me the Police in America are not investigating the claims of her being drugged by her manager. As the CONspiracy is that big and has that much money at stake that everyone is on the take.

Hence why the conservative MP was held in Paddington green police station. Where believe it or not my brothers mate is an officer! Just another 'coincidence'. Of course what has happened to me is all not possible is it! People just are not interested in what I claim as it has not happened to them. It just don't enter the possibility of their tiny little minds. Here go and play snap as that is probably the depth of the reasoning ability for the people that hate on me so much.

Just ask yourselves this. After I made the original claim of having seen a Reptillian has Icke never been in touch? You would think that he would wnat to meet me. Even if it was just to dismiss me as some loon. I note that Icke went to Peru years back. Well I believe that he had false memory shit fed to him by British SIS when he was in Peru.

How do I make these claims. Well here goes a small piece fo information that someone MUST ask David Icke. When Icke was first on the Wogan show. Did he start to have his letters to his home go missing? Did he then make a complaint to the royal mail about it all. WHo launched an investigation of the missing mail. Would I be right in thinking that one piece of mail was addressed to a M Nelson and was a brochure for hiking in Peru?

This was used to plant the seed in his mind of visiting Peru. Where I believe he was possibly brainwashed to act as a pied piper for the tptb that own everything. The Royal Mail is full of Masons. I use to be a postman many years ago. At my interview the bloke gave me a Masonic handshake. There is masses and masses to all of this that is not known by people. Is Icke MK-Ultra also?

If people think back the Peruvian governmewnt was one of those who were warning about hijacked planes just before 9/11. So there are several different factions battling each other for the supremacy of the CON played on everyone trapped in this 3d five sense reality. The overall control of these battling elements is held by the Crown. They don't care which side of the battle you're on. As long as they get their cut of your riches and wealth.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=648119&postcount=7

[killmicrosoft]

http://orderradgsmtec.googlepages.com/gordon-brown-email.jpgJPEGImage629x2.jpg

[cleopatraxxx]

I get the sense with New Labour that it's about testing just how far they can go with these sort of incursions. Always probing and testing to see how far they can go with reigning in our already limited freedom. But this is something new, something far more sinister in my book. When a party treats the opposition with such contempt and utilises the Police to do it, we ought to be worried.

that is precisely my thought

hopefully people in parliament will not become frightened and act, because if they fail to do so, then there is nothing we can do , except a revolution.

[tien an]

http://orderradgsmtec.googlepages.com/gordon-brown-email.jpgJPEGImage629x2.jpg

Careful now, killmicrosoft...you'll get yourself arrested! (But I've done it too now...)

Can anyone really believe him (the Speaker), when he says "he (the Sergeant at Arms) didn't tell me there wasn't a warrant..."?

I mean; he didn't think to demand it himself?

Stinks to high heaven...

[drhemp]

The Lib Dums are finally getting something right, as they have announced they are to boycott a committee set up to investigate last week's illegal search of the MPs office, in protest that they have made the committee dominated by Labour, allocating 4 places to Labour MPs, and just 2 for the Tories and 1 for the LDs.

The Government intend a whitewash, what else would you expect from the most dishonest government in history? I agree the best strategy would be to not even take part in any Government rigged investigation.

Sky news article (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Lib-Dems-Leader-Nick-Clegg-Announces-He-Will-Boycott-Committee-Probing-Damian-Green-Police-Raid/Article/200812115173068?lpos=Politics_First_Home_Article_T easer_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15173068_Lib_Dems_Leader_Nick_Clegg_An nounces_He_Will_Boycott_Committee_Probing_Damian_G reen_Police_Raid)

[yozhik]

I must be incredibly naive ...

The "crime" here appears to be that a politician - the people's representative - has leaked information.

Correct?

If this is information that has been received whilst in office; does that not make it OUR information in the first place?

To even label it as leaked is objectionable in the first place!
But to then arrest our representative, when all he has done is inform us of THE FACTS, as discovered in OUR INFORMATION, is beyond logic.

If these people are not there, doing OUR work ... then they can all just fuck off. They are in breach of contract, and as their employers, we have the right to sack them ... instant dismissal.

All of them tossers.

[breezinreezin]

The debate about fascism/socialism is based on a false dichotomy.

No it isn't. They are different ideologies. Fact.

[resistance]

I must be incredibly naive ...

The "crime" here appears to be that a politician - the people's representative - has leaked information.

Correct?

If this is information that has been received whilst in office; does that not make it OUR information in the first place?

To even label it as leaked is objectionable in the first place!
But to then arrest our representative, when all he has done is inform us of THE FACTS, as discovered in OUR INFORMATION, is beyond logic.

If these people are not there, doing OUR work ... then they can all just fuck off. They are in breach of contract, and as their employers, we have the right to sack them ... instant dismissal.

All of them tossers.

Yes..thats exactly the point here, its all just plain clear misrepresentation for ''democracy'' they know that many of the people hate them and their policy but that won't stop them..infact it makes them worse in their arrogance.

[cleopatraxxx]

Labour MP urges Speaker to resign
Michael Martin
The Speaker has said he has 'regrets' about the raid

Backbencher Bob Marshall-Andrews has become the first Labour MP to publicly call for Commons Speaker Michael Martin to resign.

His call comes after police probing alleged Home Office leaks arrested Tory MP Damian Green and searched his Westminster office without a warrant.

An official under Mr Martin granted the search, but the Labour MP said the Speaker should be held responsible.

Mr Marshall-Andrews said he no longer had any confidence in the Speaker.

'Attack on the people'

Mr Green, the Tory immigration spokesman, was arrested last week and held for nine hours by the Metropolitan Police, while his homes and offices were searched, as part of an inquiry into allegations of leaks from the Home Office.

The move has provoked outcry among MPs from all parties, who say the police action represented a fundamental breach of their right to hold the government to account.

Mr Marshall-Andrews, speaking on BBC Radio 4's Any Questions, said the office of an MP should be sacrosanct.

He said: "We should be allowed to do our principal job, our main job, which is to hold the government to account, relentlessly to hold the government to account.

This action, in allowing this to happen in the House of Commons, I frankly do not think he can recover from it, or should
Bob Marshall-Andrews, Labour MP

"And an attack on that job and that office is not an attack on [the MP], it is an attack on the people who they represent.

"There is no greater attack than raiding the office and removing files at the behest and with the consent of the Speaker. And that is, in a very real sense... an outrage."

He added: "Funnily enough, I like Michael Martin and I think he is actually a much better Speaker than people give him credit for, but this action in allowing this to happen in the House of Commons, I frankly do not think he can recover from it, or should."

Since the Metropolitan Police were allowed to undertake the search, many MPs have questioned whether the Speaker is doing enough to protect their rights and guard Parliament's ability to hold the government to account.

'Trust breakdown'

Two Conservative MPs have also called for Mr Martin to stand down.

Mr Martin told MPs on Wednesday that one of his officials - the Serjeant at Arms - had allowed the raid by signing a consent form approving the search of Mr Green's office, without consulting him.

Mr Martin said he had known in advance about the search, but had not been told that the police did not have a warrant.

He added that the police had not explained to the Serjeant at Arms, as they should have done, that she was not obliged to consent to the search - or that a warrant should have been insisted upon.

However, Scotland Yard has insisted its officers did make it clear that they could not search an MP's office without permission.

Meanwhile, shadow home secretary Dominic Grieve has told the Daily Telegraph newspaper that the junior civil servant at the centre of the leaks inquiry - Chris Galley - should be sacked if he was responsible.

"If he's done the leaking, it's quite clear the [Home Office] has a right to dismiss him," he said.

"Of course it does. It's a breakdown of trust. He's made a choice, and he will have to live by that choice," he said.

On Monday MPs will debate Parliament's response to the episode.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7768715.stm

[largejack]

I must be incredibly naive ...

The "crime" here appears to be that a politician - the people's representative - has leaked information.

Correct?

If this is information that has been received whilst in office; does that not make it OUR information in the first place?

To even label it as leaked is objectionable in the first place!
But to then arrest our representative, when all he has done is inform us of THE FACTS, as discovered in OUR INFORMATION, is beyond logic.

If these people are not there, doing OUR work ... then they can all just fuck off. They are in breach of contract, and as their employers, we have the right to sack them ... instant dismissal.

All of them tossers.



Of course we have, but 99% don't realise, don't have a clue, don't care and don't have the guts or inclination, and that probably and sadly includes us on here as well, who just sit, talk and do nothing! Myself included! :mad: Well I do a bit, write emails to companies, councils, MPs, present information on other forums, (taking the shit from it) avoid compliance with vaccinations, etc, but not as much as I need to, mainly through a feeling of isolation and hopelessness at the sheeple. I don't mean that to be arrogant by the way. I can't see the wood for the trees! How many other people feel the same?

I think everyone here should listen to Alex Jones as he's the only truth seeker I can think of who hosts his own radio station, it's extremely informative and he gets some great guests on who are taking action.

http://www.infowars.com/

[cleopatraxxx]

Well I do a bit, write emails to companies, councils, MPs, present information on other forums, (taking the shit from it) avoid compliance with vaccinations, etc, but not as much as I need to, mainly through a feeling of isolation and hopelessness at the sheeple. I don't mean that to be arrogant by the way.
http://www.infowars.com/

i LIKE you

you are not alone
"mainly through a feeling of isolation and hopelessness at the sheeple"
i feel the same


hugs
cleo
xx

[steevo]

Could it be that this Damian Green stunt has been purposely done so that they can bring in new rules which make EVERY MP (good and bad) above the law ?

[cleopatraxxx]

Could it be that this Damian Green stunt has been purposely done so that they can bring in new rules which make EVERY MP (good and bad) above the law ?

that thought occurred to me too ...
as things are evolving right now what matters is that their agenda is quickly unfolding. of course it matters to know if this was all staged to implement the solution. would be a relief to know people in power are trying to warn us of the shit being pushed on us.

anyway i was very saddened yesterday when someone posted a link to a website (who owns the website i couldn't figure out yet) http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45196
http://www.chipfranchise.com/index.php?id=4&PHPSESSID=93eb956a141b0944e7b79f420e6c4278
the info there is FRIGHTENING THE LEAST. MY OPINION ON IT IS POSTED IN THE LINK OF THIS WEBSITE: WE HAVE TO PREPARE FOR LOADS OF TURMOIL SOON BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IS GOINGTO ACCPET THIS SHIT..