Pre-trib or post-trib?...what is the rapture? [Archive]

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james777

31-05-2007, 06:40 PM

~Public Service Announcement~

Before I even begin this thread I would like to make a few things clear. This thread will be based on biblical prophecy and the Bible itself. If you are only attempting to dis-credit the Bible then 'Start your own thread'. This is for those that 'believe' or have interest in the Bible, it's prophecies and what it 'actually' says. With that said, do not be offended if your posts are ignored, due to content. Thanks......
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The RAPTURE. What is it? Does the Bible even talk about such a thing? If so, will it occur before, during or after the 7 year tribulation period? Who will be taken? Have we been tricked, lied to and fooled?

In today's world there is so much 'buzz' concerning this very topic. Books, movies, documentaries.....ect. There is ONE common mis-conception that we all seem to be missing here. The Bible itself never mentions the rapture. WHAT?? Why then do we have 'so-called' Bible scholars and experts discussing this topic? Did the Roman Catholic Church of the 'Dark Ages' actually purposely spread dis-information about this so the 'spotlight' of prophecy would be taken off of them? Hmmmmm....very tricky.

I would like to get into deep, detailed discussion about this. I would like to hear your thoughts and views on the matter and then we can explore the text and what it actually says and then relay it with actual history. So, who here is up for this discussion?

teslafire

31-05-2007, 06:49 PM

First fruits rapture is pre-trib and then the warrior souls - who are persecuted - brave the trib, another group of 144,000 that ascend to a crystalline New Jerusalem after the fat lady sings (or vomits).

144,000 is also the number of stones used to create the flattop Khufu pyramid depicted on the dolla dolla bill y'all.

I think alot of the Masons in the US believe themselves to be of the second group of 144,000.

Are those figures right?

king

01-06-2007, 01:11 AM

count me in

i am all i am

01-06-2007, 01:28 AM

james777

01-06-2007, 10:45 AM

Anyone is free to post on whatever thread they so choose to post on !!!

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

Refer to P.S.A. in post #1,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

nessa felagund

01-06-2007, 08:18 PM

chicken_little

01-06-2007, 08:53 PM

Some months ago I saw part of a show that discussed the end times. Being that I saw that show quite a while ago, I may get some of this wrong, but here's what I recall about it.

One particular segment of the show was about the basis of modern rapture belief. They discussed John Nelson Darby and what amounted to his founding of dispensationalism. They went on to talk about how Darby and his associates basically took bits and pieces from the Bible and put them together to form the foundation for modern rapture teachings.

Prior to seeing that show I'd always been a strong believer in the idea of the rapture, though I'd never really come to a conclusion about which particular theory I felt most comfortable with. However, after seeing the show and doing a bit of reading, I was faced with the unpleasant realization that, in fact, the rapture idea might be nothing more than manufactured; the product of men wanting to create a means of scaring people by telling them this fake end times revelation that they'd come up with. Believe me, I take no pleasure in saying that, because I'd taken a great deal of interest in the whole rapture thing. So when I learned about Darby and his work I had to step back and consider the fact that I, as well as millions of other people, might have bought into something that is purely man-made, and not from the Bible.

I think any time something as significant as the pre/post-trib beliefs are preached by so many in the Christian community, yet there is no real concrete and outright mention or evidence of it in the Bible, then people need to sit down and start thinking for themselves instead of taking their pastors, ministers, and other spiritual mentors at their word. Even Christian leaders can be mislead in their education and then pass along that false information to their students and congregations even though they don't realize what they are doing.

Those are my thoughts. I'm not trying to create any conflicts. I have struggled with how I feel about this topic for quite some time now. To be honest, I'm not sure what to believe. Maybe someone will have some good insight or information to post that will help me out. :)

james777

01-06-2007, 10:00 PM

You are exactly right about the "rapture" James 777. Absolutely no reference in the Bible. So where does it come from?

I am much interested in discussing biblical prophecy (or any prophecy for that matter). I have read many interpretations and opinions on the subject.

Do I think that the churces have spread dis-information? Absolutely! The Inquisition is one of the darkest times in human history. Millions murdered in horrific circumstances.

Count me in on the discussion!

Some months ago I saw part of a show that discussed the end times. Being that I saw that show quite a while ago, I may get some of this wrong, but here's what I recall about it.

One particular segment of the show was about the basis of modern rapture belief. They discussed John Nelson Darby and what amounted to his founding of dispensationalism. They went on to talk about how Darby and his associates basically took bits and pieces from the Bible and put them together to form the foundation for modern rapture teachings.

Prior to seeing that show I'd always been a strong believer in the idea of the rapture, though I'd never really come to a conclusion about which particular theory I felt most comfortable with. However, after seeing the show and doing a bit of reading, I was faced with the unpleasant realization that, in fact, the rapture idea might be nothing more than manufactured; the product of men wanting to create a means of scaring people by telling them this fake end times revelation that they'd come up with. Believe me, I take no pleasure in saying that, because I'd taken a great deal of interest in the whole rapture thing. So when I learned about Darby and his work I had to step back and consider the fact that I, as well as millions of other people, might have bought into something that is purely man-made, and not from the Bible.

I think any time something as significant as the pre/post-trib beliefs are preached by so many in the Christian community, yet there is no real concrete and outright mention or evidence of it in the Bible, then people need to sit down and start thinking for themselves instead of taking their pastors, ministers, and other spiritual mentors at their word. Even Christian leaders can be mislead in their education and then pass along that false information to their students and congregations even though they don't realize what they are doing.

Those are my thoughts. I'm not trying to create any conflicts. I have struggled with how I feel about this topic for quite some time now. To be honest, I'm not sure what to believe. Maybe someone will have some good insight or information to post that will help me out. :)

What does the Bible actually say about the 'Second Coming'? Will it be as if no one will know what happened? Will people feel the need to discuss 'where' everyone went? Let's see what the Bible actually says about it:

Mathew 24

24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Luke 17

22Then he said to his disciples, "The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. 24For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28"It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32Remember Lot's wife! 33Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."

Here we find a few references to Christ's Return. Contrary to popular belief, it seems as if Christ's return will be very visible, loud and unmistakable. Now then, why do so many believe that this will be a sneaky 'rapture'? Just because Jesus warns, "Behold, for I will come as a thief in the night", doesn't actually mean that he is going to sneakily take his people, it simply means he will come at an unexpected hour.

I'm going to set up a time-line using prophetic visions from the book of daniel and a few others. We're going to get to the bottom of this and we're going to disect the Bible and 'READ' exactly what it actually says. I have much to say about 'Darby' and the 'Dark Ages'. Many were murdered for their 'christain' beliefs and you'll never guess who was behind the massacres.

I'm a bit pressed for time right now, but I'll be putting some very interesting information down shortly. We're all going to be aghast at the outcome.

nessa felagund

02-06-2007, 12:32 AM

This is a very interesting and symbolic book. Of particular interest is the "abomination of desolation" spoken of in chapter 12:

Daniel is speaking to a man clothed in white linen: v. 8 ...So I [Daniel] asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?" v. 9. He replied, "Go your way Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. v.10. Many will be purified, made spotless, and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

v. 11. "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

So just what is this abomination? In Daniel's time, it was a statue of Zeus set up in the holy place of the temple in Jerusalem.

Should we be looking for something similar to indicate the "time of the end"?

Just a thought...Let us hope we are wise so that we may understand :)

tinmenace

02-06-2007, 03:33 AM

Is the second coming the same thing as the rapture?

chicken_little

02-06-2007, 03:59 AM

Is the second coming the same thing as the rapture?

Not exactly. The rapture is actually the time when Christ calls all of the believers on earth to join him in heaven. There is much debate about when this will occur, which is where the whole pre-trib or post-trib topic comes from.

The pre-trib stance is that the rapture will take place at the start of a 7 year period that will pass before Christ returns to the earth to set up his kingdom on earth for 1000 years. During that 7 year period it is believed that life for the remaining people will go from bad to worse since all of the Christians will have disappeared in the rapture. The result of the disappearances would likely mean mass chaos, confusion, and who knows what else. But also, those 7 years are thought to be the last chance for non-believers to come around and begin believing in Christ. It is also when the anti-Christ will begin his reign on the planet.

The post-trib stance, which is one I am not as familiar with, has the rapture taking place halfway through the 7 year period.

I should mention that at some point, which, if I recall correctly, is believed to be right around the beginning of the 7 year period, the anti-Christ will be revealed. In addition, there will be an attack on Israel, which will fail and be seen as an act of God protecting his people. These two events are very important pieces to the end times puzzle.

There are many, many events that are prophesied in the Bible which people assume will take place during the 7 year period as well. A lot of people will die because of war, disease, pestilence, and other terrible things. The world may become united under one government, one faith, etc., just like we are seeing in development even this day.

I apologize if I made any mistakes in what I've stated here. My end times knowledge is a bit rusty, and I'm no expert in it to begin with. But that's most of what I can recall off the top of my head.

If you're interested in reading about a fictional account of what COULD happen, check out the Left Behind series of books. They're obviously fiction, but they are based on what is written in the Bible. And, to be honest, I found them to be interesting reading. However it is important to take them with a grain of salt, since they are obviously written by men, and those men have taken a particular stance on how they believe the whole 7 year period will transpire.

One last thought. I know that people have been saying for years, "We're living in the end times!" Well, given the extraordinary events taking place these days, and the advancements made in technology in science, I think that people saying that these are the end times today may very well be correct. It is now possible to communicate with just about EVERY person on the planet simultaneously. We're seeing indications of the eventual distribution of the RFID chip implants, which Christians will most likely assume to be the "Mark of the Beast". There is also the fact that so many of the pieces are in place, or could be in place in the very near future, for the creation of the the one world government, i.e. the New World Order. So it is easy to understand why so many Christians believe that we are indeed living in the end times. The books I mentioned put forth an interesting story that shows how so much of our modern lifestyles, technology, and world events can be strong indicators that we're getting close to the end.

I hope that helps clear things up tinmenace. Sorry for going beyond what your question pertained to. :)

i am all i am

02-06-2007, 04:00 AM

Here's an interesting article on the "rapture"...

Independence Day or "The Rapture?"
The climax of the Cosmic Conspiracy

Millions of faithful await the uplifting ascension of mankind into the clouds. Learn the truth about what will really meet them there and why.

As we approach the millennium, tensions mount in preparation for a great CHANGE. New Agers await the coming ascension of mankind, when the benevolent alien watchers will trigger man's shift into the next dimension of ONENESS in the "Photon Belt." Believers in the Bible lock their doors and look to the skies in anticipation of the great rapture, when they will be changed and beamed up to the clouds to be with Jesus. The common theme here is: "Man's time on earth as an unpredictable individual is about to come to an abrupt end." The orchestrators who are behind this effort to alter man's destiny have been preparing us for their direct intervention in our affairs for hundreds of years.

The Ascension

There have been hundreds of accounts of people who claim to have received communiques from aliens (channelers) that speak of the coming ascension of man. Those who fall for this propaganda are taught that if man becomes selfless and loses his personal ambition, bowing to the authority of the Cosmic Consciousness, he will be transformed into a higher plane of existence. Living in the light of love and service to the ONE, man will transcend beyond this physical world and become a spiritually evolved being. Many of these channeled messages speak of a "rescue" ship which will descend into orbit to beam up those who are selfless and ready to enter into service with the extraterrestrial "custodians" of our planet. The channelers say that those who are willing will have their spirit energy transported into the awaiting storage pods on the escape vessels.

The Rapture

Christians have been taught that, at the end-times, the believers who are left alive at the time of Jesus' second coming will be lifted up "in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (1 Thessalonians 4:17) Modern Christians argue with each other over when this rapture will take place but most believe that they can expect to ascend up into the clouds just like Jesus did at his resurrection. The Bible also speaks of the destiny of those who are taken up into the clouds and how they will become pillars in the temple of the New Jerusalem.

The Deception

As we have briefly covered in The Immaculate Deception, and The Tower of Babel, humanity has been the victim of a vast conspiracy to prevent our advancement. Alien races have exploited our resources and our ancestors for thousands of years, keeping us constantly at odds with each other through religion, nationalism, race, culture, and sex. We are nothing more than cattle to these aliens and anytime we have tried to evolve, technologically or individually, we have been hindered by their efforts to keep us enslaved. Ironically, Christians freely admit that any attempts by man to improve himself are against the will of God.

In the Garden of Eden, it was God's will that man remain ignorant and unable to "know" good from evil. Taken literally, this equates to God's desire being for man to remain like a robot, since the knowledge of good and evil is merely the ability to discern alternative choices and choose the best option by comparing the possible consequences of one's actions to a standard of value. Christians believe that a serpent tempted the ignorant Eve by lying to her. It's funny that nothing the serpent said can be shown to be a lie and in fact it was the Elohim who attempted to deceive man by keeping him ignorant. The Elohim admitted the reason for wanting to keep man ignorant when they said:

"Behold the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden..." -- Genesis 3:22-23

The Elohim (Gods) were afraid that man would become a threat to their status quo!

This is further made evident from their response to man's attempts to better himself at the Tower of Babel. We saw what happened when the rebel Elohim attempted to help mankind by taking human women as their wives and mating with them; (Genesis 6:2) the Elohim tried to drown all of the genetically advanced human offspring in the Flood. After the days of Noah, man had made a city and built a launch tower for an air/spacecraft like they had seen the Elohim use. The all-knowing "God" of the Bible then had to come down to Earth:

"...to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." -- Genesis 11:5-7

Once again, God feels threatened by man's advancement and he disrupts human societal evolution to keep us enslaved.

Repeatedly throughout the Bible we can see what happens to man anytime he tries to better himself. Unbeknownst to most people, the "sins" which men were committing in Sodom and Gomorrah were not homosexuality but GENETIC EXPERIMENTATION! A group of rebel human/alien hybrids had once again established a base on Earth and had set up a genetic laboratory to help mankind break free of the genetic bonds of aging which the Elohim had programmed into our DNA. When the agents of the Elohim came down to see if the rumors of this lab were true, some of the men of Sodom went to take them into custody so that they could extract their DNA for the experiments which the rebels were performing. This is why they turned down Lot's offer of his two virgin daughters. They wanted Elohim DNA, not human DNA. After the mob attacked the house where Lot and the Elohim's agents were staying, the agents blinded the members of the mob with an instrument similar to that seen on the movie MIB's (Genesis 19:11). After that they called in an aerial strike to totally demolish all evidence of the genetic laboratory (Genesis 19:24-25).

It's obvious that the only time "God" responds in such a totally destructive manner is when his position of control is threatened. Now as we enter the technological era and the new age of humanity, the "Gods" are once again preparing to tighten the reigns on mankind and put us back in our proper place...kneeling and serving...praising and glorifying...mooing and bleeting like the livestock we have always been to them.

The "Beast"

Realizing that man would eventually grow beyond the shackles that the Gods have forged for us, the alien masters have channeled visions of an impending apocalypse in the minds of many humans. The book of Revelations in the Bible is a popular example of this imagery. In this channeled vision, the author describes a world leader who will rise to power and bring mankind under a single world government. This leader is given scary titles such as "The Antichrist" or "The Beast" to keep people afraid and to prevent them from using reason to judge the value of this leader's actions. Once again we see our alien masters using that age-old tool: FEAR, to cause people to react irrationally. Those who are slaves to this programmed fear will be more than ready to "jump ship" when the saviors of man arrive in their "clouds of glory."

The Slaughterhouse of the Human Spirit

The common promise which the rapture predictors give is eternal peace, harmony and servitude. Nowhere in their promises is there room for human ambition, individual rights, personal accomplishment, or self-interest. Religion teaches us that pride, ambition and desire are sins because they motivate man to rise out of the mire and to accomplish great things. When men are able to accomplish great things they become self-dependent and self-dependent beings don't make good slaves. It is for this reason that man will not be allowed to continue to evolve unhindered. Only those who display a crushed, humble, contrite, and subservient spirit will be allowed to inherit "eternal life." What purpose would God have for surrounding himself with these type of beings? Why is God so afraid of competition? It's obvious that what we are dealing with here is NOT any God, but just another form of life which is seeking to use our species to feed its own ego.

Independence Day

When the alien mother ship arrives with its crew of reptilian invaders, the earth will be defended by a valiant group of warriors, banded with our mutant forefathers and their technology we will rewrite the ending of the Book of Revelations. When the alien holographic projection of angels and Jesus descending through the clouds blinds the minds of millions, those who truly represent mankind will not bow down and surrender. We shall stand united against the alien foe, fiercely fighting the oppression of the Masters and boldly judging the injustices of God and his minions against the only objective standard of human morality; life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

"Let us not go gently to that endless winter night."

http://www.luciferianliberationfront.org/rupture.html

The Elohim

A.K.A. The Anunnaki, The Vedas, The Anakim, The Nefilim, Jehovah, The Sons of God

This alien race made its first appearance on Earth millions of years ago. Coming from a planet in our own solar system which orbits the sun once every few thousand years (also called "the 12th planet"), they have genetically altered their DNA to stop the aging process and appear to be "immortal."

They mixed their DNA with primitive man in order to create a slave race to assist them with their mining efforts on this planet. Some of the members of this race attempted to aid the humans, giving them the ability to reproduce and attempting to remove the aging process from their DNA. These helpers of mankind rebeled against the plans of the leaders of the Elohim who wanted to keep man subservient. In doing this, they, along with any who attempt to free mankind from the enslavement of the manipulators of mankind, were labeled "EVIL." One of the few alien species we can trust to assist us in our battle for liberty are these rebel "Sons of God" (Genesis 6:4) or Nordics who have broken from the reigns of the collective and illuminated the path of rational self interest for man.

The original Elohim used genetic and social engineering to attempt to keep man subservient. After realizing that man could become a threat to the agenda of the Elohim at the tower of Babel, individual members of the Elohim built congregations and cities of followers (slaves). The recruitment of Abraham in the Bible by "the Lord" (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:7-8) was an example of how the Elohim chose humans and agreed to "be their God." Numerous other religious systems of belief were established by the Elohim in order to keep man divided against himself and thus unable to work together for their own betterment. For example, the "angel" Gabriel established the Jewish religion and then turned around and established the rival religion of Islam. The gods of the Hindus, Greeks, Summerians, American Indians and others were also established by the Elohim.

The Elohim are members of the Galactic Confederation, a group of similarly oriented alien races, whose mission it is to align all planetary races with the will of the collective or "The One." Their ultimate agenda is altruistic obedience to the rule of The One. The Bible speaks of a time when the entire world will be subject to the will of The One ("every knee shall bow to me" - Romans 14:11, Isaiah 45:23). Strict obedience without question is the hallmark of "righteousness" according to the writings of the Elohim. As we show throughout our web site, the will of the Elohim does not support the good of the human race and must be aggressively resisted if we are to survive.

http://www.luciferianliberationfront.org/aliens.html

It's absolutely amazing how many different ways that the bible can be interpretated.

Which interpretation is the correct one ???

Is there one correct interpretation ???

Or are they all correct ???

Or are they all wrong ???

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

chicken_little

02-06-2007, 04:08 AM

Oops, double post. Sorry about that. The website was hanging and I didn't think it submitted.

rastamasta

02-06-2007, 04:26 AM

what is the rapture?

I can sum it up for you in one sentence.

Matthew 24:6 (New International Version)

You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

So in other words the rapture isn't happening yet. So don't worry about it.

tinmenace

02-06-2007, 04:38 AM

So, you're saying that the bible does not mention the rapture?

rastamasta

02-06-2007, 04:55 AM

So, you're saying that the bible does not mention the rapture?

nope I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it isn't happening right now. It may seem like it is with all the "wars and rumors of wars" but its not happening at the moment.

tinmenace

02-06-2007, 05:01 AM

So, then the bible does mention the rapture?

rastamasta

02-06-2007, 05:21 AM

So, then the bible does mention the rapture?

According to this guy, the actual word rapture isn't in the bible but, that doesn't matter because no matter how you try to and slice it and dice it it isn't happening right now.

I have read the NIV version of the Bible from beginning to end, and it is true the word 'rapture' was not found. I have also read parts of and studied the King James Bible since I was a child, and I have never seen the word, ' rapture ', in it. So is the rapture made up? NO. The Rapture is clearly mentioned in the bible, let me explain.

So when we mention the Rapture, we are not saying the actual word is in the bible, but what it means is, the removing or taking away of the Christian believers just before the seven year tribulation begins.

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/1-15-2006-86392.asp

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (King James Version)

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

rapture
3. the carrying of a person to another place or sphere of existence.
4. the Rapture, Theology. the experience, anticipated by some fundamentalist Christians, of meeting Christ midway in the air upon his return to earth.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rapture

tinmenace

02-06-2007, 05:29 AM

Not exactly. The rapture is actually the time when Christ calls all of the believers on earth to join him in heaven. There is much debate about when this will occur, which is where the whole pre-trib or post-trib topic comes from.

The pre-trib stance is that the rapture will take place at the start of a 7 year period that will pass before Christ returns to the earth to set up his kingdom on earth for 1000 years. During that 7 year period it is believed that life for the remaining people will go from bad to worse since all of the Christians will have disappeared in the rapture. The result of the disappearances would likely mean mass chaos, confusion, and who knows what else. But also, those 7 years are thought to be the last chance for non-believers to come around and begin believing in Christ. It is also when the anti-Christ will begin his reign on the planet.

The post-trib stance, which is one I am not as familiar with, has the rapture taking place halfway through the 7 year period.

I should mention that at some point, which, if I recall correctly, is believed to be right around the beginning of the 7 year period, the anti-Christ will be revealed. In addition, there will be an attack on Israel, which will fail and be seen as an act of God protecting his people. These two events are very important pieces to the end times puzzle.

There are many, many events that are prophesied in the Bible which people assume will take place during the 7 year period as well. A lot of people will die because of war, disease, pestilence, and other terrible things. The world may become united under one government, one faith, etc., just like we are seeing in development even this day.

I apologize if I made any mistakes in what I've stated here. My end times knowledge is a bit rusty, and I'm no expert in it to begin with. But that's most of what I can recall off the top of my head.

If you're interested in reading about a fictional account of what COULD happen, check out the Left Behind series of books. They're obviously fiction, but they are based on what is written in the Bible. And, to be honest, I found them to be interesting reading. However it is important to take them with a grain of salt, since they are obviously written by men, and those men have taken a particular stance on how they believe the whole 7 year period will transpire.

One last thought. I know that people have been saying for years, "We're living in the end times!" Well, given the extraordinary events taking place these days, and the advancements made in technology in science, I think that people saying that these are the end times today may very well be correct. It is now possible to communicate with just about EVERY person on the planet simultaneously. We're seeing indications of the eventual distribution of the RFID chip implants, which Christians will most likely assume to be the "Mark of the Beast". There is also the fact that so many of the pieces are in place, or could be in place in the very near future, for the creation of the the one world government, i.e. the New World Order. So it is easy to understand why so many Christians believe that we are indeed living in the end times. The books I mentioned put forth an interesting story that shows how so much of our modern lifestyles, technology, and world events can be strong indicators that we're getting close to the end.

I hope that helps clear things up tinmenace. Sorry for going beyond what your question pertained to. :)

Thank you for taking the time to post it. It's pretty in depth and wide open for discussion. :)

times7

02-06-2007, 11:03 AM

john white

02-06-2007, 12:48 PM

Theres a very confused person posting on this thread,blaming god for evil,thats crazy,thats insane,satan controls this earth,are you to stupid to see that,jeez all the world leaders are worshiping molech and like fools they mock God
The Illuminati dont fear god hating morons,they fear faith,the Illuminati hate/morals and they have brainwashed people to be attack dogs for them,hello is anybody there ?

The barcode on all products has 666,the mark of commerce,blame satan and be a winner

As for the rapture,christians/muslims and many other peoples will be saved,by our Lord,so dont say anything bad about the son of man and be a attack dog for satan
This post is made in the name of Lord Jesus Christ

Surely no more insane than surrendering to fear and declaring that "Satan" controls the earth? Thats the ultimate excuse for not taking responsibility

By now billions of people have lived and died expecting salvation from the skies in all its various forms, right back to the days of Babylon: these beleifs are far older than any form of "Christianity"

So far, every single one of them has been absolutely and completely wrong. I fully expect that to continue

What rapture beliefs do provide is a quasi spiritual sticking plaster over dis-harmonised and dis-eased consciousness. By projecting belief in the saviour "daddy" figure rescuing the "good" people from the mess they themselves are part of, people can salve their consciences that, despite their myriad failures to fulfill their own potential here and now, they remain "good" and "worthy" people: and perhaps in that way do provide a stepping stone towards developing true and meaningful self worth. However, for most they fail to serve any useful purpose and allow people to neglect their own development in exchange for the comforting delusion of dividing the world into "us" and "them" (and bad luck "them", you bunch of suckers, should of backed the right "god", which is ours, the winning one, yeah, etc).

The creator has no part in such idle folly, of course: the creators love is total and equal for all

Finally of course, "the rapture" is scripturally a farce, knocked together by a bunch of snake oil salesmen keen to feed off the gullabilty of the needy. As such, its all part of the circus of humanity

tru3

02-06-2007, 12:52 PM

Surely no more insane than surrendering to fear and declaring that "Satan" controls the earth? Thats the ultimate excuse for not taking responsibility

By now billions of people have lived and died expecting salvation from the skies in all its various forms, right back to the days of Babylon: these beleifs are far older than any form of "Christianity"

So far, every single one of them has been absolutely and completely wrong. I fully expect that to continue

What rapture beliefs do provide is a quasi spiritual sticking plaster over dis-harmonised and dis-eased consciousness. By projecting belief in the saviour "daddy" figure rescuing the "good" people from the mess they themselves are part of, people can salve their consciences that, despite their myriad failures to fulfill their own potential here and now, they remain "good" and "worthy" people: and perhaps in that way do provide a stepping stone towards developing true and meaningful self worth. However, for most they fail to serve any useful purpose and allow people to neglect their own development in exchange for the comforting delusion of dividing the world into "us" and "them" (and bad luck "them", you bunch of suckers, should of backed the right "god", which is ours, the winning one, yeah, etc).

The creator has no part in such idle folly, of course: the creators love is total and equal for all

Finally of course, "the rapture" is scripturally a farce, knocked together by a bunch of snake oil salesmen keen to feed off the gullabilty of the needy. As such, its all part of the circus of humanity

i don't claim to know a lot about the rapture, but i connected some dots placed by some actual, real-live christians...

Many Christian Right members in America believe in an imminent "rapture" (a coming of Christ that reportedly happens SEVEN YEARS BEFORE the famous Second Coming to earth).

The "great tribulation" in the Bible is said to occur during those seven years. Therefore the rapture is viewed as a "pretribulation" event and reportedly gives believers the hope of being taken to heaven, without dying, and thus escaping the traumatic seven-year period on earth.

The "Index" (as in Todd Strandberg's "Rapture Index") lists 45 "precursors" (events on earth reportedly acting as signposts pointing to the rapture, and showing how close the rapture is).

And here's where the mad theology comes in. The Rapture Index "precursors" (including "Antichrist") are on earth even AFTER the point in time for a "pretrib" rapture, are fulfilled DURING the seven-year tribulation period, and actually point to ONLY the (posttribulation) Second Coming to earth and not to any sort of "pretribulation" coming - a concept that NO church before 1830 ever taught!

Promoters and merchandisers of pretrib rapture theology have claimed in recent years to have found a few individuals before 1830 who supposedly taught a "pretrib" rapture or coming - but none of those promoters has ever found any ORGANIZED CHURCH teaching or even hinting at such a doctrine before that date. If you will go to Google or other search engines and type in "Deceiving and Being Deceived" (one of my earliest internet articles), you will see how groundless the claims are for certain pre-1830 individuals that have been dredged up. Even if a few pre-1830 persons DID seem to teach a pretrib rapture, why would pretrib promoters want to side with them instead of siding with the 99 percent who obviously DID NOT embrace a pretrib rapture view?

If you're interested in this subject, you can visit engines like Google, Yahoo, or MSN and type in "Pretrib Rapture Diehards" (the long-covered-up history of "pretrib" teaching), "Famous Rapture Watchers" (the only "rapture" view held by all churches before 1830), "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)" (the level of scholarship often seen in "pretrib" circles!), "Open Letter to Todd Strandberg," and "Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal" (scandalous plagiarism in writings by Falwell, Dobson, Hindson, LaHaye, Ryrie etc.; such thievery has long characterized pretrib rapturists beginning with Darby (and his contemporaries), Seiss, and Bullinger in the 1800's and continuing with later members of the Christian Rewrite such as Lindsey, Unger, Jeremiah, Carlson, Tan, Missler, and Van Impe!).

http://poweredbychrist.com/rapture_index.html

falwell, dobson and impe?? eeewwwww!

6. Darby's Influence on the Rise of Modern Dispensationalism

Darby and his supporters clearly believed the 'secret rapture' would occur in their own life time and certainly before the end of the 19th Century. Looking back, Blair Neatby, writing his history of the Brethren in 1901 reflects,

If anyone had told the first Brethren that three quarters of a century might elapse and the Church be on earth, the answer would probably have been a smile, partly of pity, partly of disapproval, wholly of incredulity. Yet so it has proved. It is impossible not to respect hopes so congenial to an ardent devotion; yet it is clear now that Brethrenism took shape under the influence of a delusion, and that delusion was a decisive element in all of its distinctive features.97

But the rapture did not occur. Whereas the leaders of Irving's Catholic Apostolic church refused to appoint successors, convinced that the Lord would return to Albury before the last one died, so that today the church there remains empty, Darby's dispensationalist ideas permeated beyond his narrow Brethrenism to a new generation of evangelicals in the 20th Century.

Professor Francis W. Newman was a contemporary of Darby and offers this assessment of his impact on those who came under his influence.

For the first time I perceived that so vehement a champion of the sufficiency of the Scriptures, so staunch an opposer of creed and churches, was wedded to an extra-scriptural creed of his own, by which he tested the spiritual state of his brethren. 98

...this gentleman has every where (sic) displayed a wonderful power of bending other minds to his own, and even stamping upon them the tones of his voice and all sorts of slavish imitation. Over the general results of his action I have long deeply mourned, as blunting his natural tenderness and sacrificing his wisdom to the Letter, dwarfing men's understandings, contracting their hearts, crushing their moral sensibilities, and setting those at variance who ought to love, yet oh! how specious it was in the beginning! he only wanted men 'to submit their understanding to God,' that is to the Bible, that is to his interpretation.99

From 1862 onwards, as his influence over Brethrenism in Britain waned, Darby focused his ministry more and more on North America, making seven journeys in the next twenty years. Sandeen has estimated that Darby spent 40% of his time in the United States.100 During that time he had a considerable and increasing influence on such evangelical leaders as James H. Brookes, Dwight L. Moody, William Blackstone and C. I. Scofield, as well as the emerging evangelical Bible Schools and Prophecy Conferences which,

'...set the tone for the evangelical and fundamentalist movements in North America between 1875 and 1920.'101

Krauss claims that by 1901, following a good deal of controversy at these prophetic conferences,

...the dispensationalists had won the day so completely that for the next fifty years friend and foe alike largely identified dispensationalism with premillennialism.102

Bass, in his definitive critique of Dispensationalism concludes,

The line of continuity from Darby to the present can be traced unbroken from the works of his contemporaries, C. H. Mackintosh, William Trotter, William Kelly, and F. W. Grant, through the intermediary works of W. E. Blackstone, James Hall Brooks, A. J. Frost, G. Campbell Morgan, Harry Ironside, A. C. Gaebelein, C. I. Scofield, and his Scofield Bible, to the contemporary adherents of his views... Suffice it to say that he stamped his movement with his own personality. Much of its spiritual atmosphere undoubtedly belongs to his influence; and certainly its interpretative principles, its divisive compartmentalization of the redemptive plan of God, its literalness as to prophetic interpretation, and its separatist spirit may be traced to this personality. Perhaps it is too broad a summary to say that Darby's personality influenced directly the spirit of contemporary dispensationalism, but certainly the pattern which he set into motion is reflected in it. 103

Similarly, George Marsden, in his history of the rise of fundamentalism between 1870 and 1930, traces the considerable influence of Darby's dispensationalism on the American evangelical world of Moody and Scofield.

This new form of premillennial teaching, imported from England, first spread in America through prophecy conferences where the Bible was studied intently. Summer conferences, a newly popular form of vacation in the age of the trains, were particularly effective. Most importantly, Dwight L. Moody had sympathies with the broad outlines of dispensationalism and had as his closest lieutenants dispensationalist leaders such as Reuben A. Torrey (1856-1928), James M. Gray (1851-1925), C. I. Scofield (1843-1921), William J. Erdman (1833-1923), A.C. Dixon (1854-1925), and A. J. Gordon (1836-1895). These men were activist evangelists who promoted a host of Bible conferences and other missionary and evangelistic efforts. They also gave the dispensationalist movement institutional permanence by assuming leadership of the new Bible institutes such as the Moody Bible Institute (1886), the Bible Institute of Los Angeles (1907), and the Philadelphia College of the Bible (1914). The network of related institutes that soon sprang up became the nucleus for much of the important fundamentalist movement of the twentieth century. Dispensationalist leaders, in fact, actively organised this antimodernist effort. Notably, they oversaw the publication between 1910-1915 of the widely distributed twelve-volume paperback series, The Fundamentals.104

It is not inaccurate therefore to conclude, Darby's dispensational views, like those of Edward Irving, would probably have remained the exotic preserve of the dwindling and divided Brethren sects were it not for the energetic efforts of significant individuals like William Blackstone, D. L. Moody and above all, C. I. Scofield who introduced them to a wider audience in America and the English speaking world through his Scofield Reference Bible.

http://www.cc-vw.org/articles/darby1.html

And who was Cyrus Scofield?

As a young con-artist in Kansas after the Civil War, he met up with John J. Ingalls, an aging Jewish lawyer who had been sent to Atchison by the "Secret Six" some thirty years before to work the Abolitionist cause. Pulling strings both in Kansas and with his compatriots back east, Ingalls assisted Scofield in gaining admission to the Bar, and procured his appointment as Federal Attorney for Kansas. Ingalls and Scofield became partners in a railroad scam which led to Cyrus serving time for criminal forgery.

While he was in prison, Scofield began studying the philosophy of John Darby, pioneer of the Plymouth Brethren movement and the "any moment now" rapture doctrine.

Upon his release from prison, Scofield deserted his first wife, Leonteen Carry Scofield, and his two daughters Abigail and Helen, and he took as his mistress a young girl from the St. Louis Flower Mission. He later abandoned her for Helen van Ward, whom he eventually married. Following his Illuminati connections to New York, he settled in at the Lotus Club, which he listed as his residence for the next twenty years. It was here that he presented his ideas for a new Christian Bible concordance, and was taken under the wing of Samuel Untermeyer, who later became chairman of the American Jewish Committee, president of the American League of Jewish Patriots, and chairman of the Non-sectarian Anti-Nazi League.

Untermeyer introduced Scofield to numerous Zionist and socialist leaders, including Samuel Gompers, Fiorello LaGuardia, Abraham Straus, Bernard Baruch and Jacob Schiff. These were the people who financed Scofield's research trips to Oxford and arranged the publication and distribution of his concordance.

It is impossible to overstate the influence of Cyrus Scofield on twentieth-century Christian beliefs. The Scofield Bible is the standard reference work in virtually all Christian ministries and divinity schools. It is singularly responsible for the Christian belief that the Hebrew Prophecies describe the kingdom of Jesus' Second Coming, and not the Zionist vision of a man-made New World Order.

And it is precisely because Christians persist in this belief that they remain blind to the reality of Zion.

Scofield served as the agent by which the Zionists paralyzed Christianity, while they prepared America for our final conquest.

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/scofield.htm

THE SCOFIELDIC RESPONSE

In Scofield's book, What Do the Prophets Say?, Scofield gives a couple of paragraphs to the Davidic Covenant. He says on page 161, in the second, third and fourth paragraphs:

"Doubtless the whole subject has been made an offense to many sincere and well-meaning students of the Bible by the too exclusively Jewish conception of the "age to come" in controversies over it. That the coming age is to fulfill the Davidic Covenant of the earth-rule of Messiah, as explained by the Prophets and confirmed by the oath of Jehovah and the message through Gabriel, is most true.
But the New Testament lifts the purpose of the age to come into a breadth and majesty far beyond the promises to Israel, while including – nay, resting upon those promises. For the thought and word of God have an ever inner and vaster content than appears upon the surface. There are perpetual surprises in the interpretation of Scripture by Scripture as the student follows the progressive unfolding of the Divine will.

The Davidic Covenant is indeed to be fulfilled in the age to come, but a vastly grander this is fulfilled – THE DESTINY OF THE RACE "(my emphasis added).

What exactly is Scofield trying to say here? Could there be anything more grand than the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ? Well, evidently Scofield thinks so.

You see, to Scofield, et.al., it is more important that the people that call themselves Jews in the Middle East today have land and "a place to call home". The sad truth is, Scofield's true belief on this subject is that the Jesus Christ of the New Testament was not the Messiah. He believes as the other Baptist ‘preacher' that I referred to that He would have been the Messiah had the jews accepted Him. But, since they didn't He will have to return as Messiah again.

At that time, the jews will believe and then everything will be wonderful. Well, at least according to this Pharisaical religious deception, Scofield goes on in his book, What Do the Prophets Say? to talk about what will happen to the earth during this "golden age of the earth-rule of Messiah".

On page 168 Scofield lets us know how this message has prepared the world for the Jewish, UN's New World Order. He states as follows:

The "righteousness" which is the ethical keyword of the age to come is simply right doing.
The end of wars, the protection of the poor, the widow, and the orphan (Psa. 72:2-4, 12-15), the inflexible demand for just dealing, will be enforced by resistless power. It is the age of the "rod of iron".

Whatever the inner thought of man may be, he must do right or die (Isa. 11:4; Psa.2.9; Rev.2:27).

What is he saying?! He is telling us that "righteousness" is not for this age. IT IS FOR THE AGE TO COME. This is why no one is interested in doing right today. Right living is not for this age.

We only need to, "Preach the gospel. We shouldn't be involved in politics. We shouldn't let the politicians of this country know that they pass evil legislation; the judges do not rule justly. We shouldn't teach people that paper money is an abomination to God. We shouldn't talk about the fact that taxes on labour are despised by God; and that Social Security participants make God's word of no effect. Just preach the gospel".

This is the summation of the religion of the New World Order. Stay in your little buildings and sing your pretty little songs – but that's it! And, if you'll be good little "sheeple" we'll give you tax credits for contributions that you make to your church organizations. We'll give your CHURCH CORPORATION tax-exempt status. Sounds like a payoff for a "job-well-done".

Upon closer examination of the preceding words of Scofield, not only is it apparent that he is teaching that "right living" is for the age to come, but another glaring statement of blasphemy needs to be addressed. He states that whatever the inner thought of man may be, he must do right or die. Can you not see that this completely nullifies the redeeming work of the Lord Jesus Christ?

This should be a clear indication of what I have been saying concerning Scofield's thoughts of the Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament. Scofield's Jesus is a Messiah yet to come in the future, when he will establish an earthly, fleshly kingdom.

This is NOT the Christ of the New Testament who said that His kingdom is NOT OF THIS WORLD.

It is NOT the same Jesus of whom Paul stated that FLESH AND BLOOD CAN NOT INHERIT His kingdom.

This "end of the world" teaching that was brought to the forefront by Scofield and perpetuated by Graham, and the others, has produced exactly what it was designed to do: Sleeping people who think that government is God, and that it is sin to question the bureaucracy that rules this New World Order.

It has produced a country filled with religious people who claim to know God, but in their works they deny Him. It has filled the country and the world with people that are begging to have one world government. They have deceived the people into believing that this one world government will be led by the Lord Jesus Christ – their soon coming Messiah.

While the religious crown looks for their Messiah to rule and reign, the enemies of Christ who have been the deceivers are laughing. They know that their one world government of slavery is coming and that ALL OF THE RELIGIOUS WORLD HAS ENDORSED IT!!!

They have the blessing of the entire religious world – excluding the religion of the Arab world. Search the Scriptures, for in them, YE THINK YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE – Jesus Christ.

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/greatesthoax.htm

wheels within wheels.

i never really did understand how christians, who hated jews over the centuries for 'killing christ', could embrace this wacky idea of needing the jews for final liberation. in this context, the idea of schofield hijacking darby and the plymouth brethren makes sense, doesn't it?

pretribulation theology, warped and shaped by the likes of jerry falwell, pat robertson, jack van impe (love that name, don't you? :D) like this helped put boy george in power. this theology has run the life out of the revolutionary impetus of christ's message. this, like so much else in the loomie game plan, has been nurtured over great spans of human time. amazing really, when one thinks of it.

Jonathan Williams recorded in his book, LEGIONS OF SATAN , in 1781, THAT Cornwallis revealed to Washington that a

"holy war will now begin on America, and when it is ended America will supposedly be the citadel of freedom, but her millions will unknowingly be the loyal subjects of the Crown."
Cornwallis went on to explain that what would seem to be a seem to be a contradiction:

"Your churches will be used to teach the Jews' religion and in less than two hundred years the whole nation will be working for divine world government. That government that they believe to be divine will be the British Empire. All religions will be permeated with Judaism without even being noticed by the masses, and they will all be under the invisible all-seeing eye of the Grand Architect of Freemasonry."

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/greatesthoax.htm

ANYTHING can be hijacked. anything. and, if a large group people believe in some kind of ology or ism, there's a good chance it already has been. :(

i think this is a great thread, just to give us all a case study to look at, if nothing else.

john white

02-06-2007, 01:22 PM

ANYTHING can be hijacked. anything. and, if a large group people believe in some kind of ology or ism, there's a good chance it already has been.

Nice work tru, and a great truth you've stated there

I think this is a great thread, just to give us all a case study to look at, if nothing else

Absolutely: wisdom in abundance for those with eyes to see

times7

02-06-2007, 09:58 PM

teslafire

02-06-2007, 10:30 PM

times7

02-06-2007, 10:46 PM

Its a worldwide war on spirituality and consciousness that's for sure, but the religious war you speak of seems more like another engineered dialectic between the solar and lunar religions of christianity and islam.

Teslafire

Peace

The reality is the media are lying about the reasons for the Iraq war and the looming war in Iran,now the NWO and its agents have to destroy Islam to set up a NWO,that is a common sense logic,i advise you to think carefully before you support this religious holocaust.

The NWO have been attacking the line of prophets since Rome,it has taken centurys for them to get this far,make your choice do you support Islam/christianity or do you join in with the ignorant lapdogs,be very carefull because your soul depends on this question

btw

peace to all gods children and blessed are the prophets,the keys to Gods kingdom shall/is given to them

i am all i am

02-06-2007, 11:19 PM

This is a WORLD WIDE religious war,

G'day Times7

If you believe that this is a "religious war", then the simple answer to stop supporting war would be to stop supporting relgions !!!

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

times7

02-06-2007, 11:31 PM

G'day Times7

If you believe that this is a "religious war", then the simple answer to stop supporting war would be to stop supporting relgions !!!

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

You should know/the media have brainwashed people about atheism not being a religion atheism is a blood thirsty religion,Stalin,polpot,Moa,Napolean,hitler,yes hitler was an atheist warlock who planned on killing the church for a nwo(hitler thule society) go to google and type hitler/thule society HITLER was not a christian,atheists are the biggest despots in history,please click on the link

Atheism is the true evil. - YouTube

times7

02-06-2007, 11:34 PM

The satanic bible was written by an atheist fanatic,anton Levay,an atheistic satanist that done RITUALS,atheism is a religion,look at their nutty racist holy book Darwins origin of life,a load of racist garbage about people coming from monkeys and lower evolved human beings,hitlers fav book was darwins atheistic origin of life=total evil

john white

02-06-2007, 11:35 PM

John White

Why are the leaders of the world worshiping molech ? its evil,if you can not see this you are blind.
What about the barcode666,the mark of commerce,this barcode is a global sign of the NWO,cant you see whats in your face ?

This is a WORLD WIDE religious war,

Marx said religion must be destroyed,you are defending a marxist path John White

The Iraq war is a religious war to destroy Islam,the price of oil is getting higher and higher,hello is anyone there,hello can you face the reality of fact that the whole global system is set up to destroy faith in the eternal soul,Christ said that the end times come when Israel is attacked,this time is near,mark of the beast is near,a mark on the right hand
A global superstate set up by satanic forces,the occult,people serve satan with out knowing it,i fear you have blinded your eyes by messing about with the new age,you have havent you ?,the new age is a con and is by design promoted by "them" to put a hex on your head to blind you from Truth

Well I see that you've chosen only to reply to the first line of my post

Fair enough.

Molech worship? A perception. Religous War? An oxymoron. Fear? well, self evident in your posts. Where is your faith? Where is your knowing of God?

Its all me me me that I see in your POV Times7

"I will be saved" "I am good" "I will save others" "I will be a good soldier"

All we see in this world is the manifestation of mans imbalanced ego: chosing a "side" is chosing to identify with one extreme of imbalance. And you have locked yourself into a programmed set of perceptions. Thats not any form of solution: thats being part of the problem

In harmony lies the answers: because in harmony we are at peace

Marx said religion must be destroyed,you are defending a marxist path John White

Now you really are out at sea. Nothing more foolish that dialectic materialism, becuase there is a creator

I did object to the vileness of your anti-semitism though. I wonder if you even noticed it? And, having noticed it, care to apologise for it?

teslafire

02-06-2007, 11:49 PM

Teslafire

Peace

Peace

The reality is the media are lying about the reasons for the Iraq war and the looming war in Iran,now the NWO and its agents have to destroy Islam to set up a NWO,that is a common sense logic,i advise you to think carefully before you support this religious holocaust.

Islam is part of the "NWO" and so is Christianity. I discern by their fruits and I've seen that they are both royally (pun intended) fucked by asking their subjects to surrender their souls to their respective holy figures.

That isn't "supporting religious holocaust" in my book.

The NWO have been attacking the line of prophets since Rome,it has taken centurys for them to get this far,make your choice do you support Islam/christianity or do you join in with the ignorant lapdogs,

Hmmm...I'd have to disagree and say that the NWO was created eons before Christianity came onto the scene. Ever heard of Atlantis? ;)

be very carefull because your soul depends on this question

Agreed.

btw

peace to all gods children and blessed are the prophets,the keys to Gods kingdom shall/is given to them

You mean like a VIP room?

times7

02-06-2007, 11:53 PM

times7

02-06-2007, 11:56 PM

Atlantis was the old world,the earth has been reborn many times in history and its going to be reborn again very soon,when the son of man returns for his children

teslafire

02-06-2007, 11:57 PM

Bill Cooper

Origins of Symbolism

(http://rapidshare.com/files/34744052/Bill_Cooper_-_The_Hour_of_the_Time_-_Orgins_of_symbolism.mp3)

Have a listen times, I think you'll like this.

I'm offering it here because it illustrates the mother code of all popular religions in the world today.

times7

03-06-2007, 12:01 AM

Anything that attacks the prophets is evil,the world is heading for slavery because attack dogs attacking the name of Christ,i bet people will wish they had christian rights when this NWO grabs them by the throat

teslafire

03-06-2007, 12:03 AM

Is that a quote from the Book of Life or is that simply a personal interpretation of yours?

i am all i am

03-06-2007, 12:05 AM

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/tattoohairgoddess/JesusFuckingChrist.jpg

http://www.kubik.org/vcm/GIFuse/bumper.gif

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

tinmenace

03-06-2007, 12:09 AM

"ANTI-SEMITIC"

What a crock of crap!

Definition of SEMITE

1 a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b : a descendant of these peoples
2 : a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language

M-W Online (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/semite)

I haven't heard the first peep out of the ADL with all the recent bombings of REFUGEE camps containing exiled Arabs.

Please do not make me sick by using this fake term "anti-Semite"

It's absolute crap!!

times7

03-06-2007, 12:11 AM

times7

03-06-2007, 12:12 AM

Is that a quote from the Book of Life or is that simply a personal interpretation of yours?

never read the book

teslafire

03-06-2007, 12:14 AM

*smacks hand against forehead*

times7

03-06-2007, 12:19 AM

smack your head again then because the Iraq and the coming conflict in Iran is going to try and destroy Islam and attack dogs are that vile they cheer from the sidelines

NWO= one world religion,worship of satan and the deaths of MILLIONS of muslims and Christians

you can not be a good person if you agree with this

times7

03-06-2007, 12:27 AM

How can Christianity be part of the NWO when its banned from politics and when GW Bush and his zionist scum illuminati worship satan as well

How can Islam be NWO when muslims have been crapped all over by the zionists ?

The leader of the NWO will be satan himself and his other name the antichrist

i am all i am

03-06-2007, 12:39 AM

i am all i am

Thats a sick minded picture,you are an attack dog of satan and you ignore that you are in trouble

There are many like you,the media has worked hard to harvest your hatred,atheistic lapdogs who ignore the pain of the iraq war are soldiers of the NWO in this religious war

You cant fight the NWO is you join those parasites

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1886/aelaughingatyouhc3.gif http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/2/3D_emoticon_40.gif http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8351/rotflmaoke0.gif http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/2/3D_emoticon_40.gif http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1886/aelaughingatyouhc3.gif

Ahhhh, you are so funny Times7, thanks for the laughs.

You have absolutely no clue about who I am or what I believe, and you make your accusations based on assumptions that you have no way of qualifying.

Keep the posts coming so that everyone can have a good laugh.

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

i am all i am

03-06-2007, 12:42 AM

*smacks hand against forehead*

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/2/3D_emoticon_136.gif

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

john white

03-06-2007, 12:52 AM

John White

Worship of molech is not a perception its REAL,they worship molech in bohemian grove,this is a 100% fact,GW BUSH is a satanic lapdog,its you that is anti semite,you are attacking the Jewish scripture and i am defending it

Zionists are scum on this earth,you also ignore the barcode666 thats on every product you buy,you are blinded by idiocy,zionism is nothing to do with scripture,why dont you say sorry John white ?

Look at the world,these zionists are going to blow israel of the map and the palestinans with them,go to youtube and see that its dripping with nazi videos,"they" own youtube,the internet being free is an illusion,there are two medias in 2007,mainstream and the net,its a double illusion,you must of heard of Albert Pikes letter

I speak to you in the name of the kING OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE

Jesus Christ

To you, I am nothing more than a reflection of the fears from the inside of your head. "I am all I am" is quite right, it is amusing to observe, but I'm also not minded to be cruel. You have such certainty derived from such ignorance. You simply have no idea what I know or how deep I understand. The saddest thing of all in that is its sheer unoriginality on forums like these. Theres always some form of "Times7" on a mission, oblivious to the fact that they fight the outer world becuase they are avoiding "fighting" the inner one

In the meanwhile, I'm sure you can explain how you fought the satanic evil of zionism by calling Marx a smelly Jew

times7

03-06-2007, 03:04 AM

John White the zionist lackey

you agree with "i am what i am" how simple minded you are,birds of a feather i guess

What a farce your views are, the biggest joke is you cant see what the NWO is,look i dont need to justify myself to you,i can judge marx anyway i like,how i like and when ever i like,marx was a smelly atheistic parasite JEW on humanity,the man was putrid(he never used to wash) LITERALLY

It is better you stop asking your idiotic questions as they are so worthless and utterly stupid,get the picture John ?

now i am talking to the whole forum not the lapdog above

The NWO is putting in place a one world religion,these illuminati are satans agents that have a sea of blood on their hands,take the comments posted on this thread by attack dogs defending their satanic belief system,the Jewish scripture is urinated on by these Zionist scum,beware to join them only pity them as their ignorance is their own worst enemy

Take the barcode on all products 666(research google to read the barcode 666)
This barcode is a global system that lapdogs of satan ignore and get angry when it is mentioned,a one world religion= religious warfare,only an idiot would say other wise....

Now the mark of the beast is is a chip,if you are forced to take this chip its not your fault,but if you "accept" in your heart the NWO leader and worship the antichrist you are cursed ,so take heed of these words becuase the NWO is going to steam roll everyone Jew,christian,muslim,hindu,black,white and there is ONLY one way to save yourself and thats to refuse in your heart to worship the beast and have Jesus in your heart
so dont say anything bad against the son of man because your soul is more important than any earthly possession

and what is to gain from posting porn and filth,only evil no doubt

tinmenace

03-06-2007, 03:27 AM

The NWO is putting in place a one world religion...

That's not the only thing they're doing. That is not the beginning and the end of this thing, sweetie. You're not seeing the forest because you're only focusing on one branch on one tree.

http://www.globalfailure.com/images/emotes/3D_emoticon_184.gif

eternal_spirit

03-06-2007, 03:28 AM

It's just an Elitest mind set, they think if they follow Jesus and be good Christians then they are God's chosen people, same as the Jews and other religions, they all have a similair version of a rapture theory.

The ascension process is the New Age version. Of course they all believe they're right and all the others are wrong. Sound familiar???

tinmenace

03-06-2007, 03:31 AM

Not at all.

times7

03-06-2007, 03:34 AM

times7

03-06-2007, 03:37 AM

tinmenace

03-06-2007, 03:44 AM

john white

03-06-2007, 03:48 AM

John White the zionist lackey

And with that you reveal how uninformed and small you are

LOL!

I'm not really looking to perform pwnings here but boy: you have been!

john white

03-06-2007, 03:49 AM

Just wait till I tell the gang at Illusions! ;):)

times7

03-06-2007, 03:51 AM

A New WORLD Order suggests that it covers the entire planet. All the people on Earth, some of which have never even heard of Christ, and couldn't care less about him or the supposed anti-Christ. So, how does that work for them then?

Your story has some serious holes.

Christ is in hearts not words,a person who never heard of Christ but rejects satan in the end times is saved

You see scripture has been corrupted over the ages and this religious war has been going on since Rome and its prophecy ends in a short reign of satan over earth aka the NWO antichrist,this is the conspiracy that includes all the mysterys of the middle age witch hunts and all wars

times7

03-06-2007, 03:53 AM

Just wait till I tell the gang at Illusions! ;):)

Lets call a truce,after all why should we fight when the antichrist is the enemy or in your view the NWO leader

tinmenace

03-06-2007, 03:58 AM

So, you're suggesting that God is so hateful that he will turn his back on a family of good people, including children, because they were born into Islam (for example), and have continued their traditional religion?

If this is what your God is about, then I will never ever bow to such a wicked and unforgiving being. All I have for your God is my firm middle finger.

Got it?

i am all i am

03-06-2007, 03:58 AM

That's not the only thing they're doing. That is not the beginning and the end of this thing, sweetie. You're not seeing the forest because you're only focusing on one branch on one tree.

http://www.globalfailure.com/images/emotes/3D_emoticon_184.gif

Wow, that's generous Tinmenace.

I would have described it as one leaf, on one branch, on one tree !!!

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

i am all i am

03-06-2007, 04:05 AM

Lets call a truce,after all why should we fight when the antichrist is the enemy or in your view the NWO leader

After pesonally attacking John White and making accusations about him all you have to say is "Lets call a truce". Why do you think that anyone here is fighting you ???

You have come here and hurled abuse at others and made personal attacks. You are the one that is fighting.

Personally I am laughing my arse off !!!

You are hilarious Times7. This is almost as good as the 'Who's on first' comedy routine.

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

john white

03-06-2007, 04:07 AM

Lets call a truce,after all why should we fight when the antichrist is the enemy or in your view the NWO leader

You call for a truce: but its only you thats fighting

Here's a straight fact for you to digest, to help you understand me better

No Man is my leader

No "AntiChrist" has power over me

As an incarnate Human, I derive my moral authority direct from the creator

This is the birthright of all Humans: as all who reach out to claim it discover

The creator loves us totally, to the uttermost core of our being: all we have to do is choose to love the creator back, utterly and genuinely, through whatever path, scriptural or experiential: to become fully realised in being.

There is nothing that incarnate humans cannot do

A world of complete harmony and peace is

but the thickness of a thought away, always

When we know ourselves well enough, we choose

The only time to choose is NOW

times7

03-06-2007, 04:11 AM

one world religion=religious war on muslim and christian countrys and mass genocide

The NWO= antichrist

a man incarnate=satnist lapdog

teslafire

03-06-2007, 04:21 AM

Its been a fun ride, but my head is now getting dizzy by repetitively circling over the same statements.

http://cuboidal.org/photos/2005/08/01/IMG_7270-medium.jpg

john white

03-06-2007, 04:23 AM

one world religion=religious war on muslim and christian countrys and mass genocide

The NWO= antichrist

a man incarnate=satnist lapdog

=

A belief you have

I dont object to you having it, though I certainly can't see the need

Everything you have written is merely belief

And beliefs can be programmed, manipulated and fabricated

All of the above certainly have been

In a word: Illusion!

Its a choice you have, and that is all. That is what all thoughts are: simply choices

Repressed and limited mankind had myriad problems apparently

The solution is Human Rennaisance, into awakened individuals, choosing to redefine life as caring for each other and caretaking the planet, with an eye on some space exploration, and then onwards

And thats just a choice as well: but if we make it happen, it certainly isnt illusion

Where as waiting around for "JC"?

Well, its your life.

john white

03-06-2007, 04:25 AM

Its been a fun ride, but my head is now getting dizzy by repetitively circling over the same statements

Ah but Tesla! If theres one man I know who can make some entirely new, vigerous statements for us all to argue over, it most certainly must be you! ;)

cincygirl

03-06-2007, 04:26 AM

I'm curious too, can someone explain the "Rapture" also? or maybe it's already written above and I just missed it...

john white

03-06-2007, 04:31 AM

"If your extra good, you get taken up to Heaven before Armageddon"

cincygirl

03-06-2007, 04:40 AM

Ok, I get it now. Thank you! :)

john white

03-06-2007, 04:42 AM

Ok, I get it now. Thank you! :)

Your very welcome :D

teslafire

03-06-2007, 05:21 AM

Ah but Tesla! If theres one man I know who can make some entirely new, vigerous statements for us all to argue over, it most certainly must be you! ;)

http://www.fanfic.net/~jeffwong/rant54-youre-and-your.html

:D:D:D

james777

03-06-2007, 11:15 AM

OK guys, I appreciate the fire and the open debate, but we've taken too many left turns here and have gotten WAY off topic. I have some very interesting and discussion inviting information to post here about the rapture.

I will be making a significant post here in the next couple of days concerning the 'RAPTURE' and 'Biblical Prophecy'.

I know things can get heated quick, but please have a look at the 'PSA' in the opening post.

Carry on...........I'll be back soon.........

james777

18-06-2007, 06:07 PM

Well guys, I'm back. I had to take some time off here and explore some things in my own life and I am now, in my opinion, in a better position than ever.

I originally posted this thread because I felt that there is SOOO much dis-information on the 'Rapture'. Throughout time there have been so many different perspectives on the subject but the text in the 'Bible' remains clear. So, to understand this 'phenomena', we first need to understand how to properly interpret scripture............

Let me start with popular doctrine; Mathew 24:40-42 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come...........This is quite possibly one of the most 'quoted' scriptures in the 'Rapture debate'.

Before Jesus said, the above scripture...Mathew 24 begins with Jesus sitting somewhere on the Mt. of Olives talking about the end times. The disciples were curious and asking questions. Jesus gives 'clear' warnings about not being decieved on this very TOPIC. Could it be that somehow, someway there would be FALSE doctrine spread about this very subject?? It seems so! Mathew 24 is full of 'eye opening' scripture, but for now I want to focus on; Mathew 24:26-27 26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. .......Here we can see that this is a very visible coming, the exact greek word is 'Parousia', not 'rapture' and for us not to be decieved because this return will be visible and unmistakable! You can also read Mathew 24: 30-31 for more insight on this 'return'.

All this is now leading up to my original point about Pre- or Post- tribulation 'parousia'. Some believe that the 'church' will disappear and then the world will go crazy within the last 7 years, some believe the 'church' will live 3 1/2 through the 'tribulation' and others conclude that the 'church' will suffer through the entire 7 year period. Now, before we all begin to speculate and think of everything we've been 'conditioned' to believe, let's look and see what the Bible actually says about it........

The thing that puzzles me most is the fact that the Bible itself never mentions anything about a 7 year tribulation period, yet, everyone thinks this is 'FACT'. Most people conclude that the 7 year tribulation period is referenced to in; Daniel 9: 24-27 in verse 27 we see the words "One Week" and many have mis-interpreted this and say it is referring to the last 7 years of mankind as we know it.

24 "Seventy 'sevens' [c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish [d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. [e]

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.........here is the scripture. This is a prophetic vision Daniel is having accompanied by 'Gabriel' the angel.

Gabriel gives a prophecy about a seventy week period. I will break it down for you so it is easier to understand.

Seventy weeks = 490 days. 'One' day in prophecy represents 'one' year (Number 14:34, Ezekiel 4:6). So 490 days is actually 490 years.

I have a lot more on this subject, but I would like to stop here to discuss what I've posted so far......

logic bomb

18-06-2007, 09:17 PM

Theres a very confused person posting on this thread,blaming god for evil,thats crazy,thats insane,satan controls this earth,are you to stupid to see that,jeez all the world leaders are worshiping molech and like fools they mock God

Times 7, I respect your beliefs and opinions. I used to be a born-again many years ago and have studied the Bible. Before I get into this topic I would like to say that all beings, all creations have free-will while also being a part of Gods/The Creators mind. Everything that is, is supposed to be that way. If "satan" controls the Earth as you say that that is the way The Creator has ordained it. Everything.. us, ants, fallen angels, elephants.. we are all part of The Creator. To love him is to love all creation and to love all creation ( yes ,including your enemies ) is to love him.

Funnily enough what threw me from this religion, aswell as my own intuition, was Paul.

Everything this guy wrote in the Bible, thats most of the New Testament, just didn't sit right with me and I could not put my finger on it. The words in Red were great, and still are, but Paul came across as if he was mis-leading in some way. After much prayer and deliberation I decided that I could no longer trust the Bible as the Word of God and abandoned it. The Rapture is of course a no-brainer. Always was.

Now some years later after conversing with someone who was very involved in the Mystery School Religions and was a High Mason amongst other things, everthing became clear and made sense. He said that within certain circles, those who are given some of the real knowledge had always known that Paul was basically an agent and that modern christianity was designed around his lies and false teachings deliberately to take away the simple power of the words in red and to lead people through false practices and doctrines.

Suddenly everything became clear.

I have no way to know if this person was being completely honest ( he could have been deceived also ) but this just clicked with my confusion and long held suspicion surrounding Paul.

Anyone?

lb

nessa felagund

18-06-2007, 10:49 PM

Hello, logic bomb, I so agree with you concerning Paul. He is very suspicious to me as well. His "vision" of Jesus just somehow doesn't ring true.

But I still find biblical prophecy interesting and worthy of discussion. What is this "abomination that causes desolation"? Any ideas?

king

20-06-2007, 08:05 AM

rapture sure seem as pure B.S.
belief in rapture seems to benefit no one but the "guardian class"

you do the math

tru3

20-06-2007, 12:50 PM

Everything this guy wrote in the Bible, thats most of the New Testament, just didn't sit right with me and I could not put my finger on it. The words in Red were great, and still are, but Paul came across as if he was mis-leading in some way. After much prayer and deliberation I decided that I could no longer trust the Bible as the Word of God and abandoned it. The Rapture is of course a no-brainer. Always was.

Now some years later after conversing with someone who was very involved in the Mystery School Religions and was a High Mason amongst other things, everthing became clear and made sense. He said that within certain circles, those who are given some of the real knowledge had always known that Paul was basically an agent and that modern christianity was designed around his lies and false teachings deliberately to take away the simple power of the words in red and to lead people through false practices and doctrines.

great insights. paul persecuted the early christians, then had a "vision". if you can't BEAT them, join them?? :confused:

i'm not saying he didn't have a vision, but it may well have been an implant. hard to say. either way, paul was a gentile, and brought his greco roman cultural baggage to the bible. he spoke to them in their own language; he made christianity more palatable to the romans. very convenient to have around at the council of nicea! he made "the cut".