What is your opinion of one of my favorite prayers

[coshh]

It struck me what a culture clash there is between this prayer and the David Icke forums and it made me wonder how the people here respond to that clash.

Receive, O Lord, all my liberty.
Take my memory, my understanding, and my entire will.
Whatsoever I have or hold, You have given me;
I give it all back to You and surrender it
wholly to be governed by your will.
Give me only your love and your grace,
with these I will be rich enough,
and ask for nothing more.
- St. Ignatius of Loyola

I do feel a little guilty posting it because I suspect reactions will mostly be negative, when if you look at it with the right spirit it really is a tremendously wonderful prayer.

[brainfreeze]

It struck me what a culture clash there is between this prayer and the David Icke forums and it made me wonder how the people here respond to that clash.

Receive, O Lord, all my liberty.
Take my memory, my understanding, and my entire will.
Whatsoever I have or hold, You have given me;
I give it all back to You and surrender it
wholly to be governed by your will.
Give me only your love and your grace,
with these I will be rich enough,
and ask for nothing more.
- St. Ignatius of Loyola

I do feel a little guilty posting it because I suspect reactions will mostly be negative, when if you look at it with the right spirit it really is a tremendously wonderful prayer.

One problem I have with the creator theary and "serving" God. If God wanted puppets on a string why did he not make man as such?

[coshh]

One problem I have with the creator theary and "serving" God. If God wanted puppets on a string why did he not make man as such?

Because that's not what it's talking about. ;)

[brainfreeze]

Because that's not what it's talking about. ;)

Oh, sounded like a surrender kinda prayer to me, but then that's religion for ya, open to interpretation.

[coshh]

Oh, sounded like a surrender kinda prayer to me, but then that's religion for ya, open to interpretation.

It is surrender... but that does not result in puppets on a string...

[kasalt]

It struck me what a culture clash there is between this prayer and the David Icke forums and it made me wonder how the people here respond to that clash.

As you noted, that prayer was written by St. Ignatius of Loyola, who was the founder of the Jesuit order. If you want to know why that fact is significant, this will give you some idea:

http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/5219/48/

[thirdwave]

It is surrender... but that does not result in puppets on a string...

out of interest what is the advantage of surrendering to the lord?

[jojo]

Receive, O Lord, all my liberty.
Take my memory, my understanding, and my entire will.
Whatsoever I have or hold, You have given me;
I give it all back to You and surrender it
wholly to be governed by your will.
Give me only your love and your grace,
with these I will be rich enough,
and ask for nothing more.
- St. Ignatius of Loyola



i think it is horrible. surrendor your free will. the memory bit is disturbing as you are giving away your right to knowledge and remember what has happened to humainty in the name of religion (any religion)

i dont like this prayer one little bit...... but, each to their own. if you want to give away your free will to this being... so be it.

[91181]

It struck me what a culture clash there is between this prayer and the David Icke forums and it made me wonder how the people here respond to that clash.

Receive, O Lord, all my liberty.
Take my memory, my understanding, and my entire will.
Whatsoever I have or hold, You have given me;
I give it all back to You and surrender it
wholly to be governed by your will.
Give me only your love and your grace,
with these I will be rich enough,
and ask for nothing more.
- St. Ignatius of Loyola

I do feel a little guilty posting it because I suspect reactions will mostly be negative, when if you look at it with the right spirit it really is a tremendously wonderful prayer.



'' Look at it with the right spirit '',what do you mean bt that ?.... This struck me as Satanic and looking at the author of it just confirmed my suspisions .

[coshh]

out of interest what is the advantage of surrendering to the lord?
I am not sure I could (right now) put it into words.
What is the advantage of resisting Him?

[coshh]

'' Look at it with the right spirit '',what do you mean bt that ?....

I mean if you don't look at it with misguided ideas of who God is or misguided ideas of what it means to give those things to God .

[brainfreeze]

I mean if you don't look at it with misguided ideas of who God is or misguided ideas of what it means to give those things to God .

Misguided according to whose ideals and doctrines? Christian? Jewish? Buddist? Agnostics?

[coshh]

Misguided according to whose ideals and doctrines? Christian? Jewish? Buddist? Agnostics?

Well really, according to the truth.

But say it isn't, say it's all just a fantasy, it's still beautiful in and of itself. That love and devotion and relinquishment - even if its an impossible dream based on false variables - is still what it is, love and devotion and relinquishment - and genuine trust. If it turns out to be directed at an unreal being, it itself is still real. If it is directed at an object which is different to what is claimed, even a deceptive object, that cannot undo the victory of love and trust anyway, weakness conquers whilst strength attains its own destruction.

[thirdwave]

I am not sure I could (right now) put it into words.
What is the advantage of resisting Him?

does there have to be one or the other... I don't feel anything to resist unless somone is preaching to me about him.

[coshh]

does there have to be one or the other... I don't feel anything to resist unless somone is preaching to me about him.

I always did. I was always desperately resisting anything that seemed to me a threat to my sovereignty. There was seemingly no greater threat to that than God.

[armoured_amazon]

It struck me what a culture clash there is between this prayer and the David Icke forums and it made me wonder how the people here respond to that clash.

Receive, O Lord, all my liberty.
Take my memory, my understanding, and my entire will.
Whatsoever I have or hold, You have given me;
I give it all back to You and surrender it
wholly to be governed by your will.
Give me only your love and your grace,
with these I will be rich enough,
and ask for nothing more.
- St. Ignatius of Loyola

I do feel a little guilty posting it because I suspect reactions will mostly be negative, when if you look at it with the right spirit it really is a tremendously wonderful prayer.

:)

People don't realise the power in surrender because they are caught up in being their own Supreme Masters; they do not realise that in doing so they achieve nothing.

[oddblock]

I'm pretty sure St. Igatius of Loyola was the founder of the Jesuits... Just throwing that in there.

[thirdwave]

I always did. I was always desperately resisting anything that seemed to me a threat to my sovereignty.

and so you should... with out our sovereignty the NWO would not even be a requirement by the elite...


There was seemingly no greater threat to that than God.

I never see God as a threat personally... he is the creator of everything so anything i go through he created at some point... he even created my sovereignty for some reason :)

[coshh]

and so you should... with out our sovereignty the NWO would not even be a requirement by the elite...




I never see God as a threat personally... he is the creator of everything so anything i go through he created at some point... he even created my sovereignty for some reason :)
Prior to my conversion experience I wanted so much power, I was afraid to relinquish control to God and accept my dependence and vulnerability.
The problem with the attachment to self-sovereignty is that we are not sovereign, it's a lie. God delegates to us some pretty impressive abilities, but it's all from Him and we owe Him good use of what He has given us, gratitude and loyalty.

[thirdwave]

Prior to my conversion experience I wanted so much power,

Really?, well what kind of power?.. power over others or power over your self?

Big difference.... self empowerment is great.... confidence, happiness.... strength.... power over others is due to the lack of self empowerment... for example when one is bullied at school and grows up insecure ... they are normally the most bossy and control freakish boss's

If you cant find self empowerment with out God then does this mean he never created us to be independent?... if he did then can we not find love and happiness without God?.


I was afraid to relinquish control to God and accept my dependence and vulnerability.

So you believed in god, but were not accepting him? ... that's different i guess, and relevant to your own dilemma...

I do not believe that God is a force that lives outside of my self... So I find it impossible to fear giving him control.... its more a case of getting closer to him to use the control to a better effect.

my only mission is I find it hard to maintain the realisation that my life is shaped because of the god within... and when I forget that I start to feel lost at sea and am not as much of a vibrant person.



The problem with the attachment to self-sovereignty is that we are not sovereign, it's a lie.
So if we are not free which is what you are really saying because you cant be free unless you are sovereign (only to the degree of who is sovereign who has prevented us from being it) , then what it the point in our creation?


God delegates to us some pretty impressive abilities, but it's all from Him and we owe Him good use of what He has given us, gratitude and loyalty.

But why cant he give them to us unconditionally? and why cant we repay him by following in his footsteps by simply creating... I mean its not like he has not created mistakes is it?

[coshh]

Really?, well what kind of power?.. power over others or power over your self?

Big difference.... self empowerment is great.... confidence, happiness.... strength.... power over others is due to the lack of self empowerment... for example when one is bullied at school and grows up insecure ... they are normally the most bossy and control freakish boss'sAs a person who was somewhat asocial, neither. I wanted power to make my daydreams and visions a reality, I didn't really care HOW, although I'd happily trample on anything necessary to attain it.

If you cant find self empowerment with out God then does this mean he never created us to be independent?... if he did then can we not find love and happiness without God?.
Yes we were not created to be independent. Not only that we cannot be independent. Love and happiness is inherently through God because God is love and God has all perfections and goodness.


So you believed in god, but were not accepting him? ... that's different i guess, and relevant to your own dilemma...It wasn't that simple. I feared that God might exist (and was horrified by the idea) because it would take away my power - and the power of all mankind - to decide for ourselves what is right. I most of all resented and was afraid of God's moral authority.


So if we are not free which is what you are really saying because you cant be free unless you are sovereign (only to the degree of who is sovereign who has prevented us from being it) , then what it the point in our creation?1. We are free. But we also have duties - we are free insofar as we can neglect by choice these duties.
2. What is the point in our creation? Gee, I don't know, I don't even care, I am just so glad to exist.



But why cant he give them to us unconditionally? and why cant we repay him by following in his footsteps by simply creating... I mean its not like he has not created mistakes is it?1. Uh, God never "created mistakes"
2. I don't know, it doesn't matter, the fact is that is not what our relationship to God is.
3. God knows everything, God is omnibenevolent. It's pretty unwise not to listen to him.

And within the confines of what is Good, despite a few little commandments, there is enormous freedom - but even then, nothing is so great as to love God so much as to give Him everything we have as He gave us everything we have.

[newdecades]

1. Uh, God never "created mistakes"


the god of the bible created a huge mistake. it was called 'the tree of knowledge/life'. also, satan seems to have been a mistake, haha.

[thirdwave]

As a person who was somewhat asocial, neither. I wanted power to make my daydreams and visions a reality, I didn't really care HOW, although I'd happily trample on anything necessary to attain it.

Ok so you wanted control of your life so you could excell more in what inspired you.... and you wanted the power to do this.... only you are saying that you would harm others if it meant gaining what inspires you... So in effect it was power over others you wanted to attain your goals...

Yes this is wrong and we have all been there are done that at some stage ... its because its hard to understand you dont need to harm others, you can manifest your desires from within... not by altering what is outside.


Yes we were not created to be independent. Not only that we cannot be independent. Love and happiness is inherently through God because God is love and God has all perfections and goodness.

ahhhh are you refering to God as simply a source of Love? ... another word for love? .. an energy?

if so then I would be able to see more where you are coming from... if you are talking about God as a masterful being .. with a conciousness of his own... then I would have to disagree that love is only inherited through him... and I most defenently disagree that we are dependent on him.... any true god would strive to make us independent of him and to be our own... as he is his own..


It wasn't that simple. I feared that God might exist (and was horrified by the idea) because it would take away my power - and the power of all mankind - to decide for ourselves what is right. I most of all resented and was afraid of God's moral authority.

But you were abusing your power... so this is understandabhle that you would be a little greedy with it as you admit that you where being greedy with it... ..you felt that he would stop you from being able to take what you wanted.. ok i get that...

so you admit you where afraid of God .... and then submited to him...

I guess the reason I am not a Christian or any other religion.. Is Im not afraid of God... I don't believe he can take my power away... and I dont really use any power I have to harm others so i dont know why he would... I use it to help get what Inspires me and makes me a better more happy person... my moto is i will do my thing and will try not to hurt others and I respect others to do the same...

1. We are free. But we also have duties - we are free insofar as we can neglect by choice these duties.
That is not freedom.... if you were free but had dutys then it would mean your free will created those duties...

if those duties where placed there by someone else then that is not freedom.


2. What is the point in our creation? Gee, I don't know, I don't even care, I am just so glad to exist.
So you have submitted to a god who you are happy to offer your whole being to because you have faith in him.... but you do not know or care what he created you for??

1. Uh, God never "created mistakes"
So even none believers are all part of his plan? .... murder, rape, child abuse, torture, war, famine, are all part of his intended creation?

2. I don't know, it doesn't matter, the fact is that is not what our relationship to God is.
It does not matter? ... it does matter.... its like saying you are in love with a woman so it does not matter if she is sleeping in your bed with another man.... it does not matter because you know her so well and love her..




3. God knows everything, God is omnibenevolent. It's pretty unwise not to listen to him.
Well what ever God is then yes it is aware of everything.. i guess if he knows everything they he knew that many people would find it hard to work with his rules... and new the pain and suffering it would cause.... but obviously did not mind.... he also knew thouse who would not worship him but still let them be borne..... that is unless he does not know everything..

And within the confines of what is Good, despite a few little commandments, there is enormous freedom - but even then, nothing is so great as to love God so much as to give Him everything we have as He gave us everything we have.

This is just it I already have freedom... I guess that's why the bibles watered down brand have never appealed to me.

[coshh]

Ok so you wanted control of your life so you could excell more in what inspired you.... and you wanted the power to do this.... only you are saying that you would harm others if it meant gaining what inspires you... So in effect it was power over others you wanted to attain your goals...

Yes this is wrong and we have all been there are done that at some stage ... its because its hard to understand you dont need to harm others, you can manifest your desires from within... not by altering what is outside.I believe in objective reality. I can change what I want, but I can't - for instance, say I want a particular gold statue of Athena, and Jim has it and wants it, I can't have it and him still have it. One of us has to yield.




ahhhh are you refering to God as simply a source of Love? ... another word for love? .. an energy?

if so then I would be able to see more where you are coming from... if you are talking about God as a masterful being .. with a conciousness of his own... then I would have to disagree that love is only inherited through him... and I most defenently disagree that we are dependent on him.... any true god would strive to make us independent of him and to be our own... as he is his own..No God does have a consciousness of His own. Why would God necessarily make us independent, I really don't understand the reasoning. Just because you want to be, doesn't mean that's how it is, or that it would even be better that way.




But you were abusing your power... so this is understandabhle that you would be a little greedy with it as you admit that you where being greedy with it... ..you felt that he would stop you from being able to take what you wanted.. ok i get that...

so you admit you where afraid of God .... and then submited to him...No I was afraid that an authority existed outside of myself. I did not want to have any authority above me. God was just one of many possibilities of what that authority might be.

I guess the reason I am not a Christian or any other religion.. Is Im not afraid of God... I don't believe he can take my power away... and I dont really use any power I have to harm others so i dont know why he would... I use it to help get what Inspires me and makes me a better more happy person... my moto is i will do my thing and will try not to hurt others and I respect others to do the same...No offense but I see this as tremendously arrogant. Every time you eat something you have an impact on the world which does some people harm. All our actions have unintended consequences good and bad. Plus sometimes harm is better than the alternative.


That is not freedom.... if you were free but had dutys then it would mean your free will created those duties...

if those duties where placed there by someone else then that is not freedom.Yes it is, because you have a choice to neglect your duties. It's wrong to, but you can do it.



So you have submitted to a god who you are happy to offer your whole being to because you have faith in him.... but you do not know or care what he created you for??Yeah. I am told it is to love and be in communion with Him but it doesn't really bother me, I am just glad I have the amazing privilege of getting to exist, to see, to hear, to taste, to think, to yearn, to suffer, to know, to act. To ask for anything more would be the height of presumption.


So even none believers are all part of his plan? .... murder, rape, child abuse, torture, war, famine, are all part of his intended creation?God does not will sin, but He permits it, and evidently must have known in advance it would happen and have thought the totality of existence worth it.



Well what ever God is then yes it is aware of everything.. i guess if he knows everything they he knew that many people would find it hard to work with his rules... and new the pain and suffering it would cause.... but obviously did not mind.... he also knew thouse who would not worship him but still let them be borne..... that is unless he does not know everything..Yes God obviously thought suffering was worth existence. Dostoevsky has interesting struggles with this. When I was in Austria earlier this year I found myself watching a lightening storm, the fiercest one I've ever seen in my life, and I contemplated that God must have known in creating lightning that after the fall, when creation had been infected by death by sin, this magnificent thing would kill people. He must have known that there would be people who would suffer death and loss and pain because of lightning, and yet He created lightning - and as I looked at it streak across the sky I thought I would die by lightning to allow it to exist. If I had to die for lightning to exist, I would die! So I believe it is worth it!



This is just it I already have freedom... It is my view that you are mistaken.

[thirdwave]

It is my view that you are mistaken.

Ok, i will be more thorough... as its very easy to point to someone and say they are not free in this world :)...

In this society im not free, although we all feel like we have a degree of freedom here, you are also not free here.. or anyone else on this forum...

But with regards to my spiritual journey and quest... I am free... I have not arrived at my destination and I am not content to the degree i feel i need to be ...maybe i never will..... But I feel I am free in my search and free to change everyday... to move on different paths and go where the times take me...... and don't feel the desire to ask for a Gods help.... I only feel the desire to connect more with my inner self to find more clarity... which does come to me from time to time...

So with that, I would have to emphasise that I am not mistaken ;)

although you have a right to your opinion.

[coshh]

You are not free in the sense of being genuinely independent from God. Neither are you free from the bondage of sin. (And nor am I!)
But it can be very hard to come to grips with that. Some people never do.:(

[thirdwave]

You are not free in the sense of being genuinely independent from God. Neither are you free from the bondage of sin. (And nor am I!)
But it can be very hard to come to grips with that. Some people never do.:(

thats all cool because there are one or two sins that I enjoy... So i am not planning on stopping them...

and to be honest with you I do not really fear Satan....

and If you are talking about God in the same way as me... in that god is within the self... then yes you cant be independent from him.... as you are dependent on the self...

as for God that is not apart of the self... then I am %100 independent from him that I am sure of.

good luck with it though, and I hope it sorts you out.

[kasalt]

I'm pretty sure St. Igatius of Loyola was the founder of the Jesuits... Just throwing that in there.
Ignatius wrote the Jesuit Constitutions, adopted in 1554, which created a monarchical organization and stressed absolute self-abnegation and obedience to Pope and superiors, "well-disciplined like a corpse" as Ignatius put it.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Loyola

The Thirteenth Rule of Ignatius' Spiritual Excercises reads as follows:
To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it...
Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/ignatius/exercises.xix.v.html


It is surrender... but that does not result in puppets on a string...

:rolleyes:

[coshh]

Have you ever actually met a Jesuit?
Because they don't act like corpses much. They even have a reputation for being a bit rebellious as a whole, although not all of them are.

[kasalt]

Have you ever actually met a Jesuit?

I spoke with someone who was educated by the Jesuits. In fact, he gave strong consideration to becoming a Jesuit priest, but changed his mind. He told me they were steeped in intrigue.

Because they don't act like corpses much. They even have a reputation for being a bit rebellious as a whole, although not all of them are.

And here is why that is:
Extreme Oath of the Jesuits

My son, heretofore you have been taught to act the dissembler: among Roman Catholics to be a Roman Catholic, and to be a spy even among your own brethren; to believe no man, to trust no man. Among the Reformers, to be a reformer; among the Huguenots, to be a Huguenot; among the Calvinists, to be a Calvinist; among other Protestants, generally to be a Protestant, and obtaining their confidence, to seek even to preach from their pulpits, and to denounce with all the vehemence in your nature our Holy Religion and the Pope; and even to descend so low as to become a Jew among Jews, that you might be enabled to gather together all information for the benefit of your Order as a faithful soldier of the Pope.
Source: http://www.reformation.org/oath.html

[coshh]

You realise that is a forgery right?
http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/forgeries/ware_contents.html
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Anti-Catholicism/jesuit_oath_debunked.htm

[kasalt]

You realise that is a forgery right?
http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/forgeries/ware_contents.html
http://www.victorclaveau.com/htm_html/Anti-Catholicism/jesuit_oath_debunked.htm

It can't be far from the truth, because it violates neither the spirit nor the letter of Ignatius' instructions.

[coshh]

I spoke with someone who was educated by the Jesuits. In fact, he gave strong consideration to becoming a Jesuit priest, but changed his mind. He told me they were steeped in intrigue.

You spoke with one person who had received a Jesuit education?
Please forgive me for not considering that grounds for taking your opinion of them very seriously.

[coshh]

It can't be far from the truth, because it violates neither the spirit nor the letter of Ignatius' instructions.
It's a forgery plain and simple. If you want to reference something in the same spirit by all means do so, its unreasonably to reference a forgery then say that it counts as evidence because it's in the same spirit.

[kasalt]

You spoke with one person who had received a Jesuit education?
Please forgive me for not considering that grounds for taking your opinion of them very seriously.

Why should I take offence? I do not demand that you believe me.

But someone else does...

[kasalt]

:)

People don't realise the power in surrender because they are caught up in being their own Supreme Masters; they do not realise that in doing so they achieve nothing.

:)

Have a look at this: http://www.davidicke.com/content/view/5219/48/

[thirdwave]

:)

People don't realise the power in surrender because they are caught up in being their own Supreme Masters; they do not realise that in doing so they achieve nothing.

It not just a case of the power of surrender, of course surrender is powerful, its why and who you surrender too that is important.

surrendering your will just takes your responsibility away and puts it in the hands of another... it does not make you good.... just irresponsible.... regardless of if it has paid off. its not exactly a sign of evolution.

I have not surrendered my self to Jesus and I am a good person who does not hurt other people and does not believe in doing so.

I will surrender to something should I value it so... And the only Master I would have is a master I choose based on what I want and feel I need to learn.... not what one imposed on to me.... I believe in choice and the chance to create from that choice.

makes me laugh how just because one does not worship Jesus... they have a master making them that way.... Nope! ... its my choice and my choice only.