the tree of knowledge [Archive] - David Icke's Official Forums

snoopsnuffleopagus

18-11-2008, 11:44 PM

newdecades

19-11-2008, 12:18 AM

Hi; newdecades:

That would be the Tree of the Knowledge of Righteousness and Evil, as in relation to the Tree of Life.

In essence; The Tree of Life is Yahwehs 'System', as compared to HaSatans 'System'; The Tree of the Knowledge of Righteousness and Evil. Not all bad, but not all good either.

checkout Genesis 2:17
This has over twelve translations, menu box next to search box
http://www.blueletterbible.org/

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm

checkout the margin notes and footnotes. Alot of information just in the first three verses.

http://www.yahweh.com/gen1.html

thanks for the info snoop. i wasn't able to find an answer to my question though. actually, i noticed something else that made me have another question. in genesis 24 and 25 god creates the animals/beasts of the earth etc. then in genesis 26 he creates adam. but then in genesis 2:18 it says "[It is] not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him." so then in genesis 2:19 god creates the beasts AFTER he created man. in genesis 1 it says that god created beast first then adam but in genesis 2 it says he created man first then the beasts of the earth because man needed a companion. contradicts itself. unless i'm reading it wrong.
i also find it funny that god supposedly created adam AND the beasts of the earth before woman/eve. shows you how men viewed women back then, haha.
i still don't understand why god would create a tree that we arent supposed touch. it's like god was setting us up to 'fall from grace'.

snoopsnuffleopagus

19-11-2008, 12:41 AM

Hi newdecades; I've actually been reading that the Author of the 'J' Source, the oldest, 950 BCE, may have been a woman!

Also; Yahweh may have extracted a Cell from Adam to do that thing, to make him a helper, woman.

Check this out. What appears to be contradictions or discrepencies usually evaporate when scrutinized. It is a little tricky Book, but once you realise there is amazing information in a coupla verses that will be missed, if not careful.

this is right on target for your queries.
http://www.tektonics.org/jedp/creationtwo.html
homepage

http://www.tektonics.org/

ya gotta use Tools;

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php

Bible Origins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8vZmWQPgwA&feature=related

drael

19-11-2008, 12:42 AM

snoopsnuffleopagus

19-11-2008, 01:17 AM

Hi Drael:

there is also much to be learned from the Literalism, Textualism and Contextualism, see my signature; The Tree of Life is Cited in the Book of Revelation.

Yahweh was already putting Adam to work in the Garden, Pruning, Weeding, Fertilising. And Yahweh had Adam naming all the critters also.

For many of us, the Two Trees represents Two Paths. YHWHs Path is the Tree of Life, as Cited throughout the Book, The Tree of the Knowledge of Righteousness and Evil is HaSatans Path.

IMO; Contextualism and Etymology really 'opens' the Book.

The Scripturealy supported definitions of: Righteousness; Sin and Iniquity, are very important, because these three words are used continuosly throughout the Book. And their meanings are important and relevant.

There is a cogent and coherent message in the Book from Genesis to Revelation.

Example of Etymology-Darkness/Without Form

Genesis 1:2—

Now the earth became without form and empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep...

The word darkness comes from the Hebrew word choshek which is word #2822, in the Hebrew Dictionary of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, and means the dark, darkness, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow and wickedness.

The words without form are translated from the Hebrew word tohuw. The Hebraic Tongue Restored, by Fabre d'Olivet, page 467, shows this word to mean to be led astray.

newdecades

19-11-2008, 01:38 AM

The tree of knowlegde of good and evil isnt literal, nor is the tree of life, or adam and eve.

Both trees are inherent qualities of life and mind, particularly human conciousness. The logical mind vs creative mind. Fixed ideas vs wholism. Being vs thinking and naming.

I agree. Some people do think it's literal though. if i try and take it literally i'm left with things that don't make sense to me.

snoop, i'll check out those links. thanks.

newdecades

19-11-2008, 02:00 AM

Hi newdecades; I've actually been reading that the Author of the 'J' Source, the oldest, 950 BCE, may have been a woman!

Also; Yahweh may have extracted a Cell from Adam to do that thing, to make him a helper, woman.

the writer may have been a woman but i'm sure she was only writing down a story that she had been told. kind of like a folk tale. so the original 'creator' of the creation story was probably a man based on what is said and what happens in the creation story. in my opinion of course.
i just can't get passed that god supposedly created man/adam and beast first THEN woman. Not only that, it also just happened to be the woman/eve who was first tempted by satan to take from the tree. then the fact that god created this tree for no apparent reason. just to test us maybe? I don't know, my gut feeling tells me it's a man made story and shouldn't be taken literally. just my opinion.

newdecades

19-11-2008, 02:03 AM

The tree of knowlegde of good and evil isnt literal, nor is the tree of life, or adam and eve.

Both trees are inherent qualities of life and mind, particularly human conciousness. The logical mind vs creative mind. Fixed ideas vs wholism. Being vs thinking and naming.

drael, kind of off topic but i was curious about what you think of the story of jesus in the NT? do you think any of it is to be taken literaly?

snoopsnuffleopagus

19-11-2008, 02:29 AM

hi newdecades, Mother Eve was deceived, Adam 'sinned'. Big difference.

The Book is a cohesive Saga, that is why there are the verses of peoples deaths and peoples begettings, they actually add up mathematically to 4,000 years from Adam to the birth of Yahshua.

The Book is Literal, Contectual, Metaphorical, Allegorical, Past, Present, Future Tense, and any and all combinations.

I see you have an Origins of the NT Thread. Have you seen this?
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=382725&postcount=3

The Books have alot more integrity than is commonly aware.

drael

19-11-2008, 02:38 AM

Very very interesting example snoops. Im certainly not arguing against contextualism, or etymology. The bible is a packed read, with plenty of such things, and various correspondances. In fact, its a bit like the same thing said in twenty billion different ways, no?

I am not however a person who beleives in the literal, i prefer to remain open to reality. So while there certainly could be literal aspects or events, i am not overly concerned with them. Unless of course they relate to some other literal thing, then it might be interesting anyway. However, correspondances of meaning like you point out, the consistancy of meaning and symbolism is something i find very interesting.

Newdecades: On the jesus story? i personally beleive there was such a person. However where the parable ends and the man begins, i am not certain. It could be simple that his life was full of parable? For me this is less important than the potency of the content.

Heres a parable for that idea. Jesus gathered people to the mountain, to share with them knowledge, but we never hear what he had to say, in the bible, because people were too focused on the miracle of producing bread and wine!!

snoopsnuffleopagus

19-11-2008, 02:58 AM

The 66 Books, and 1 Enoch provide a lifetime of mind boggling concepts. A Micro of the Macro is the Book of Iyob/Job.

When Yahshua says the Kingdom of Heaven/Yahweh is within, He means you have a truly peaceful equilibrium. This is achieved through Righteous Action.

He said Heaven was not food and drink, but Righteousness and Peace.

the Word Righteous/ness has an Absolute scriptural meaning. This is of a different value than when a Hells Angel says: Yeah! That's righteous.

Same word, different values.

How about when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven. Yahweh Shamah-Yahweh is Here. It is 1,500 miles wide, 1,500 miles long, and 1,500 miles high. :eek:

Craziest collection of Books ever scribed or assembled, and I think they make perfect sense.

Love em'

stfd

19-11-2008, 11:58 PM

is there any explanation as to why god supposedly created the tree of knowledge and then told adam and eve not to touch it? was there a point?

First of all , is not 'supposedly' because he actually did.

By putting all options on the table He simply offered the alternative.He created man not only phisically, but also mentally/intelecually and with the ability to choose based on his senses,feelings etc.
Additionally, by giving man ALL the options , He was offering TOTAL freedom of choice.If He would have never offered the possibility of choosing then it would have translated into dictatorship.

The 'tree of life and death' called so in the Bible simbolizes/is , among other things, our own ability and potential to effectivelly decide for ourselfes the outcome of our actions.

armoured_amazon

20-11-2008, 12:04 AM

is there any explanation as to why god supposedly created the tree of knowledge and then told adam and eve not to touch it? was there a point?

Free will and obedience.

I agree. Some people do think it's literal though. if i try and take it literally i'm left with things that don't make sense to me.

snoop, i'll check out those links. thanks.

They existed and of course everything doesn't make sense all in one go. :)

First of all , is not 'supposedly' because he actually did.

By putting all options on the table He simply offered the alternative.He created man not only phisically, but also mentally/intelecually and with the ability to choose based on his senses,feelings etc.
Additionally, by giving man ALL the options , He was offering TOTAL freedom of choice.If He would have never offered the possibility of choosing then it would have translated into dictatorship.

The 'tree of life and death' called so in the Bible simbolizes/is , among other things, our own ability and potential to effectivelly decide for ourselfes the outcome of our actions.

:)

newdecades

20-11-2008, 12:08 AM

First of all , is not 'supposedly' because he actually did.

By putting all options on the table He simply offered the alternative.He created man not only phisically, but also mentally/intelecually and with the ability to choose based on his senses,feelings etc.
Additionally, by giving man ALL the options , He was offering TOTAL freedom of choice.If He would have never offered the possibility of choosing then it would have translated into dictatorship.

The 'tree of life and death' called so in the Bible simbolizes/is , among other things, our own ability and potential to effectivelly decide for ourselfes the outcome of our actions.

In the bible god did, i don't believe god created 'the tree of life' in reality though. i think it's just symbolic. in the bible, god still decided to create a tree and told us not to touch it. there was no point to create the tree of life. we could have lived happily ever after if god didn't create it. but if he didn't create the tree of life the people who came up with the creation story wouldn't have a plot twist to explain why we fell from grace. just my opinion.

newdecades

20-11-2008, 12:13 AM

Free will and obedience.

free will? that doesn't make sense. why didn't god just allow us to 'freely' live in the garden instead of creating a tree that can make everything turn bad? there was no reason for the tree. so in other words, he decided to create the tree just to test us? no, this sounds more like a man/human you're describing not god.

stfd

20-11-2008, 12:14 AM

In the bible god did, i don't believe god created 'the tree of life' in reality though. i think it's just symbolic. in the bible, god still decided to create a tree and told us not to touch it. there was no point to create the tree of life. we could have lived happily ever after if god didn't create it. but if he didn't create the tree of life the people who came up with the creation story wouldn't have a plot twist to explain why we fell from grace. just my opinion.

I dorealize is your opinion , i have however said in the comment above that by 'planting ' the tree He offered the alternative . IF He wouldn't have done so then the man would have never had the opportunity to effectivelly choose from ALL the possible offers. That simply because all the options weren't offered since the'bad' option was never offered.

stfd

20-11-2008, 12:16 AM

free will? that doesn't make sense. why didn't god just allow us to 'freely' live in the garden instead of creating a tree that can make everything turn bad? there was no reason for the tree. so in other words, he decided to create the tree just to test us? no, this sounds more like a man/human you're describing not god.

He offered ALL the alternatives and exposed to them what the outcomes of their possible options will be. It wasn't a test, was a simple , logical course of action. The reason behind the tree uff ... just read what i said before , i dont want to repeat :(

newdecades

20-11-2008, 12:27 AM

He offered ALL the alternatives and exposed to them what the outcomes of their possible options will be. It wasn't a test, was a simple , logical course of action. The reason behind the tree uff ... just read what i said before , i dont want to repeat :(

still doesn't make sense. why would god offer a bad alternative? freedom of choice? if god knows everything, wouldnt god have known adam and eve were going to pick the wrong choice and see the terrible things that would happen because of that choice? it would have been a lot better if happiness was the only choice. there was no need for the tree of life. except for a plot twist in a story.

newdecades

20-11-2008, 12:28 AM

also, why did god create a 'bad' alternative? i thought god doesn't create evil?

drael

20-11-2008, 12:43 AM

One word: Job.

It will settle all you biblical queries about why god creates evil, including the devil.

stfd

20-11-2008, 12:44 AM

still doesn't make sense. why would god offer a bad alternative? freedom of choice? if god knows everything, wouldnt god have known adam and eve were going to pick the wrong choice and see the terrible things that would happen because of that choice? it would have been a lot better if happiness was the only choice. there was no need for the tree of life. except for a plot twist in a story.

So basically if there is something you dont understand you say it doesn't make sense?

Yes freedom of choice, total freedom.

God didnt know in advance what the outcome of Him planting the tree will be.
God knew/knows what the outcomes are, given the possible alternative options one might take however.
God created man as a self sufficient,greatly capable,able to effectively make decissions for itself - being.
One would say ' oh but if God didn't know what would actually end up happenenig then He is no God ! ' is only that he created man with the extremelly wonderful ability to forge a future and course of action based on it's actions. He made man this way , the perfect creation - totally free.

stfd

20-11-2008, 12:46 AM

also, why did god create a 'bad' alternative? i thought god doesn't create evil?
No, God did not create evil.

Read the Bible, the -evil- came into being by it's will alone, after a time when this -evil- was good, it became - evil -.

stfd

20-11-2008, 12:47 AM

One word: Job.

It will settle all you biblical queries about why god creates evil, including the devil.

lol

'Job' is overrated

newdecades

20-11-2008, 01:04 AM

So basically if there is something you dont understand you say it doesn't make sense?

Yes freedom of choice, total freedom.

God didnt know in advance what the outcome of Him planting the tree will be.
God knew/knows what the outcomes are, given the possible alternative options one might take however.
God created man as a self sufficient,greatly capable,able to effectively make decissions for itself - being.
One would say ' oh but if God didn't know what would actually end up happenenig then He is no God ! ' is only that he created man with the extremelly wonderful ability to forge a future and course of action based on it's actions. He made man this way , the perfect creation - totally free.

why would god think we wanted freedom of choice though? did he think if he allowed us to just live happily in the garden of eden we would one day be like "hey wait a minute, god didn't let me choose this! what makes him think i want to be happy and peaceful all the time!?". we would have never known anything about 'freedom of choice' because the only choice would be peace and happiness and that's all we would have wanted. i really doubt god was thinking "i better give them another choice besides happiness because that's not fair". freedom of choice has nothing to do with 'god', 'freedom of choice' is a man made term. i believe the universe was 'created' and we were born to chose what we want to do. whether it be 'good' or 'bad'. it had nothing to do with us eating from a tree that we weren't supposed to eat from or any other man made story to explain our existence and why men do 'bad' things.

thanks for all your answers though. i just wanted to get different opinions on this question.

stfd

20-11-2008, 04:17 AM

why would god think we wanted freedom of choice though? did he think if he allowed us to just live happily in the garden of eden we would one day be like "hey wait a minute, god didn't let me choose this! what makes him think i want to be happy and peaceful all the time!?". we would have never known anything about 'freedom of choice' because the only choice would be peace and happiness and that's all we would have wanted. i really doubt god was thinking "i better give them another choice besides happiness because that's not fair". freedom of choice has nothing to do with 'god', 'freedom of choice' is a man made term. i believe the universe was 'created' and we were born to chose what we want to do. whether it be 'good' or 'bad'. it had nothing to do with us eating from a tree that we weren't supposed to eat from or any other man made story to explain our existence and why men do 'bad' things.

thanks for all your answers though. i just wanted to get different opinions on this question.

np

jayelowell

20-11-2008, 05:00 AM

notice the double torus with singularity at its center!!!
http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-16922739.jpg?size=572&uid=%7B01C202D7-1AAB-4CF6-A22A-07AF0EFE6898%7DI have had a bite, and I am quite full!

tjohn

21-11-2008, 03:08 PM

is there any explanation as to why god supposedly created the tree of knowledge and then told adam and eve not to touch it? was there a point?
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38371

newdecades

21-11-2008, 11:27 PM

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38371

ahh yes, i've read that post. i agree that the story should be taken symbolicly rather than literally. michael tsarion says something very similar to what you're saying about the creation story.

tjohn

07-12-2008, 05:41 AM

ahh yes, i've read that post. i agree that the story should be taken symbolicly rather than literally. michael tsarion says something very similar to what you're saying about the creation story.I'm generally much slower than Michael but in some ways more focused on some details. I think that Michael does generally have a similar view about the creation story - yet it was because in one of his talks he said that there's no symbolic significance with the stuff about the tree of the knowledge of "good" and "evil" that I decided to take closer look. I'm not very good at putting things down in writing but the hidden meanings are getting clearer to me now. Because of illness I can get very tired but I keep looking into this because it's become very obvious to me that what religions are based on is often not the truth or has even been turned upside down. :mad: :eek: