Did Jesus actually say he wanted his word written?

[drael]

Jesus didnt write the bible. That begs the question why not?

And is it mentioned somewhere in the bible that he wanted it written down...?

If not, is the NT a betrayal of jesus's intention?

[lhaull]

I understand that many people gain something from believing in 'Holy Text's'
Be it the Bible or the numerous other 'One and only Truth' Books.
Personally I have no attraction to them.
I could care less if Jesus is a fictitious character based upon Mythras, Horus or Ra or if Jesus was like his followers claim, God incarnate here to save us all from our human nature / sin.
Personally I don't worry about sin.
If Jesus did exist and he wished to worry about sin, then I have no problem with him doing that, his existence, so his choice.
As for worrying about if those who scribbled down pieces of info 300 years after his supposed death and resurrection did it without his permission, be he fictitious or not and would he be pissed about it.
I care not.

Just my opinion.

Love to all

[haukipesukone]

Very good question. Maybe that's why no-one has yet to answer.

[mephibosheth]

It is interesting to consider.

Jesus had a very, very small window of time to preach his gospel--three years according to traditional accounts. That's pretty quick to spread the good news. After his death it was up to his followers to continue the mission. The thing is, Jesus did not give the world a coherent teaching, in the sense of a document, a law book, a history, or anything of the kind. Contrast that with Mohammed, who delivered the Qur'an. what we get after the death of Jesus is a set of varied accounts, based on interpretations of his life and teachings. Its easy to suspect that the true message of Jesus might have been occluded or distorted through these later interpretations.

I don't think they are a betrayal of his intentions though. The intention of Jesus was to set an example and to teach the kingdom of heaven. This in turn requires each individual to thoroughly reflect on their own nature. The gospels are inspiration for those who have ears to hear, but were not present during the earthly teachings of Jesus. Jesus did tell his disciples to preach the gospel, but not necessarily to do so based on a book. As far as I know, there is nothing in the teaching that requires a text at all.

8)

[seekingthetruth]

Jesus Frequently quoted scripture when he was preaching to the people. The disciples were with Jesus as witnesses for his life, death and resurrection, so there is no doubt that Jesus wanted these important events to be recorded for mankind to read for themselves. (Although many still don't believe)

Remember, Jesus is God manifest in Human form ... and God (Being The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) has throughout history commanded his people to write down certain elements of His Word. (I.E. The Ten Commandments, Prophecies, Parables, The Creation ... EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE BIBLE!)

[phildee3]

God has throughout history commanded his people to write down certain elements of His Word. (I.E. The Ten Commandments, Prophecies, Parables, The Creation ...



Yahweh, the creator-god of the Jews, did.

Nowhere does He, or the all-that-is (the "father" of Christ), command that any NT stuff be written down (including the parables).

You make a good point, drael.

It is supported by the fact that original Christianity and druidism were entirely compatible, and blended perfectly.
The druid techings were essentially passed on orally from teacher to pupil and the original method of Christian catechism was by question and answer too.

However, I wouldn't go as far as to say that the writing of the NT is necessarily a "betrayal of jesus's intention."
I mean, he didn't tell us not to record these things.
But I do think you have a case for Christian teachings to be primarily by oral transmission, with the NT records for back-up.

[seekingthetruth]

I'm afraid this whole topic is pointless anyway because you are simply speculating that because there was no direct commandment from Jesus to write down the New Testament scriptures, then it must be wrong. Making assumptions of how God feels about whether they should have been verbal or written is irrelevant ... besides, we are greatly blessed in having the scriptures we have in the first place!

Should God have told the writers of each book of the Bible to write some kind of Statement before they began with their testimonies and experiences? ("Umm ... just so everyone knows, God commandment me to write this Book")

It is also extremely important to recognize that Jesus is in fact God in human form ... the Bible reveals God in Three Persons ... The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. This is referenced in the Bible in many places, most importantly during Jesus' Baptism at the beginning of His Ministry. If you don't have a right understanding of this, then perhaps we are talking about two completely different Jesus'.

[phildee3]

I'm afraid this whole topic is pointless



So why are you participating?



Should God have told the writers of each book of the Bible to write some kind of Statement before they began with their testimonies and experiences? ("Umm ... just so everyone knows, God commandment me to write this Book")



That's exactly what you said He did (in msg.#5).



...perhaps we are talking about two completely different Jesus'.



No, two different gods.

[drael]

I'm afraid this whole topic is pointless anyway because you are simply speculating that because there was no direct commandment from Jesus to write down the New Testament scriptures, then it must be wrong.


Speculating is always valid. Making assumptions is not, right? People are assuming it is _right_. I am assuming nothing.

................

In general response, while is certain that jesus wanted the gospel, logos, or word spread, and that is in the bible, that is not what im getting at. Jesus knew about books, he knew you could write one. He knew all his followers would die. So, why isnt he quoted as saying "write the logos in a book"?

Seems fairly obvious to me. Again, fully accept jesus asked for spreading of logos. But given that, would he not have at least breifly mentioned the possibility or not, of a book? Seems more likely than not.

Of course the importance of whether something is written or spoken may be lost on some, but for very abstract spiritual content, writing into a book can cause serious lose of meaning. This is why many older cultures did not keep written records, rather using an oral tradition. If indeed, as some suspect, jesus's teaching was gnostic or mystic, this is even more important - because in such teaching every word and its precise meaning is important. And this offers one explaination....

But aside from my own veiws on content of the bible, it does seem very obvious that the issue of commiting to a book would have come up. Just practically, one want to teach the world...how is that transmitted?

Also, if the bible is the infallible word of god, god knows all events and things and god is in jesus: Jesus would have specifically known about the NT, and its modern relevance. So why wouldnt he say "put the logos in a book"?

This gets me thinking about the actual relationship between jesus's word and the writing of the NT, and also jesus's disciples. Its an interesting aspect of the book.

[lordzoma]

Jesus is a fictitious character borrowed from earlier myths.

[pedsi]

Jesus is a mushroom!

Not as daft as it may sound:)

http://johnallegro.org/main/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=15&MMN_position=16:4

http://www.theholymushroom.com/links.html

[eternal_spirit]

Yahweh, the creator-god of the Jews, did.

Nowhere does He, or the all-that-is (the "father" of Christ), command that any NT stuff be written down (including the parables).

You make a good point, drael.

It is supported by the fact that original Christianity and druidism were entirely compatible, and blended perfectly.
The druid techings were essentially passed on orally from teacher to pupil and the original method of Christian catechism was by question and answer too.

However, I wouldn't go as far as to say that the writing of the NT is necessarily a "betrayal of jesus's intention."
I mean, he didn't tell us not to record these things.
But I do think you have a case for Christian teachings to be primarily by oral transmission, with the NT records for back-up.

Yes the Old Testament and they follow the Laws of Moses 613 of them. Jesus wasn't even born then.

Moses was given the Law on top of mount Sinnai (which maybe code for he went in the Pyramid at Egypt/Babylon got inititaited into the higher degrees and it's also know as Luciferic Illumination.

[phildee3]

Jesus is a fictitious character borrowed from earlier myths.



Yes, but then he incarnated!!

(Let's not get into this here, though - off topic.)

[phildee3]

...why wouldnt he say "put the logos in a book"?



Because Christ is the Logos -
not to be revealed through words but by directly experiencing his presence.

[tracker]

Jesus didnt write the bible. That begs the question why not?

And is it mentioned somewhere in the bible that he wanted it written down...?

If not, is the NT a betrayal of jesus's intention?

yes it is a betrayel of his intentions its the classic betrayal tactic . used by the very people he did not like and warned us about .

all idolisation is a sin , which is why the church uses his image as an idol of worship .

jesus did not like the church or polotics and warned us about them .
so what do the church do ?
they take some of his phylosophy and his image and use it as idolisation and worship .
for instance , seeing jesus strung up and torchered to death is deborchary in its worst , yet many are brain washed to worship this image of death and an idolisation of death worship .

he didnt give up his life ---------- he was murdered !
it isnt an image of hope
its an image of death .

i dont edit what im tought to edit before i say what i see .
a man strung up to death is an image of death and thats that .

the classic betrayel of everything he stood for thus it holds his spirit in contempt for ever .

such are the blind being lead by the blind .

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Jesus didnt write the bible. That begs the question why not?

And is it mentioned somewhere in the bible that he wanted it written down...?

If not, is the NT a betrayal of jesus's intention?

If one were to carefully read, and study the scripture, all your queries would be answered in full.

The Near East & Middle East 2,000 years ago was a fairly literate place. Roman, Greek, Hebrew, Canaanite/Semetic, Aramaic and other languages with their assosciated scribes were prevelent and common. Yahshua would have no reason or desire to command anyone to write down anything as this would occur naturally while speaking. Scribes were everywhere.

Since there was no TV or Radio, people enjoyed oral speakers and the written word. There were already many books, manuscripts and documents in circulation.

Yahshua Messiah and His apostles wwere Yahdaim-People of Yahweh-Hebrews. The apostles and disciples recognised Yahshua as the prophecied Messiah, that more than 100 Prophecies foretold in the Tanakh/OT.

Yahshua and His apostles taught in the Temples and Synagogues on Yahwehs Weekly Sabbath, they also taught outside the Temples amongst the masses; Yahdaim and Gentile.

Yahshua and the Apostles taught from the Tanakh/OT; they constantly cited the Patriarchs and the Prophets of the OT, telling us to heed their words.

The Sermon on the Mount is pure Old Testament, and everybody present, Hebrew and Gentile knew this. When Yahshua and the Apostles spoke of our heavenly Father, they were referring to Yahweh.

NT-Origins
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=382725&postcount=3

Historical & Scientific Evidence
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28141

Yahshua Messiah, a begotten Son of Yahweh, Who was the Savior sent by Yahweh, taught that Yahweh is perfection.

Mattithyah 19:17—
But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh.


Mattithyah 5:48—
Therefore, become perfect, just as your Father Who is in heaven is perfect.

Yahshua Messiah said the following.

Yahchanan 6:44—
No man can come to Me, unless the Father, Who has sent Me, draws him; and I will establish him as a priest at the last day.

Every citation of Yahshua Messiah and the apostles of the word: Father; is in reference to Yahweh.

Yahshua and the Apostles were not the founders of xtianity. It is Messianic Yahwism, or as the Encyclopedia terms it: A Sect of Non-Normative Judaism.

Also drael; the word logos should be read as 'Plan'; the Hellenistic 'Logos'; a pre-existent spirit/force is errant. It is a Hellenization of what was intended to be Hebraic Thought, which shuns Hellenism.

The whole Book of Yahweh, both the Old Testament and the New Testament is about Father Yahwehs plan for Humans.

Hebrews 5:5-10—
5 So the Messiah also did not take upon Himself the glory of becoming a High Priest, but Yahweh said to Him: You are My Son; today I have begotten You.
6 As He also says in another Scripture: you are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
7 Who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the One Who could save Him from death, was heard because of His holy reverence.
8 Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience from the things which He suffered;
9 Then being perfected, He became the Causer of eternal salvation to all those who obey Him.
10 Called by Yahweh a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek,

Psalm 110:4—
Yahweh has vowed an oath, and will not relent nor change His mind: you are a priesthood forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Genesis 14:18-20—
18 Then Melchizedek, king of Salem, brought out bread and wine. He was the priest of Yahweh Most High.
19 And he blessed him, and said; Blessed be Abram by Yahweh Most High, Creator of heaven and Earth;
20 And blessed be Yahweh Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand. And he; Abram, gave him tithes of all.

Hebrews 7:1-6—
1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of Yahweh Most High, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
2 And Abraham also gave him a tenth part of all. First, his name being translated means, King of Righteousness, and then also king of Salem, meaning, King of Peace.
3 Melchizedek's father and mother were not recorded in the genealogies; neither was the beginning of his days, nor the end of his life—but he was a representation of the Son of Yahweh, for the continuance of the priesthood.
4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the plunder.
5 And truly, those who are of the sons of Levi, who received the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the Law, which means: from their brothers, even though their brothers are descended from Abraham.
6 But this man whose genealogy is not traced from Levi, received tithes from Abraham, and blessed him who had the promises.

The 613 righteous Laws of Yahweh, taught to Abraham by the righteous Priest Melchizedek, was the power or strength that turned Abraham to righteousness.

Yahweh had recorded that Abraham kept and upheld, not just the Ten Commandments, but all of Yahweh's 613 Laws, statutes and judgments.

Genesis 26:5—
Because Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, my statutes, and My Laws.

Abraham kept Yahweh's 613 Laws; therefore, Yahweh promised Abraham that He would use his descendants for a Work in a planned time period.


Yahchanan said it best when he said nothing was done outside the Plan of Yahweh.

Yahchanan 1:1,3—
1 In the beginning was the plan of Yahweh, and the plan was with Yahweh, and the plan was Yahweh's.
3 All things were done according to it, and without it nothing was done, that was done.

Notice this drael, the scribes were present, they were the 'News Reporters' of the day, and Yahshua was 'News Worthy'.

Yahchanan Mark 12:28-30—
28 Then one of the scribes came, and listened to all their discussion, and had noted how well He answered. So he asked Him; What is the first commandment of all?
29 And Yahshua answered Him: The first of all the commandments is: Hear, O Israyl, Yahweh is our Father. Yahweh is one.
30 And you must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your might.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5—
4 Hear, O Israyl, Yahweh is our Father. Yahweh is one.
5 And you must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.

Mattithyah 4:10—
Then Yahshua said to her; You get away, Satan! For it is written: Yahweh your Father you must reverence, and Him only you must serve!

Deuteronomy 6:13—
Yahweh your Father you must reverence, and Him you must serve, and by His Name you must take your oaths.

Mattithyah 23:9—
And you must not pray to or worship any man on earth as a "Father," for you have only One Father, Who is in heaven.

Yahchanan 14:28—
You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Yahchanan 12:49-50—
49 For I have not spoken on My own; but the Father Who sent Me gave Me the Laws—what I should say and what I should speak.
50 And I know that His Laws are life everlasting; so whatever I speak, I am saying exactly what My Father has told Me to say.

Mattithyah 24:36—
But no man knows that day nor hour. No, not even the malakim in heaven, but My Father only.

Mattithyah 19:16-17—
16 And behold, one came to Him, and said; Teacher, what righteous thing may I do, so that I may have eternal life?
17 But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh .

As you see; Yahshua Messiah and His Apostles constantly cite the Patriarchs and the Prophets of Yahweh, Yahshua tells us to heed Yahweh and His servants.

The Sermon on the Mount is based upon the Torah, the multitude of Yahdaim and Gentiles that were present were all very well aware of this.

Even the Gentiles knew Yahshua was dicussing Yahweh, He was reknowned for that. We may be sure scribes were present. Mattithyah for one.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uAi0otWAKw

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

drael- a most unpopular concept these days is Yahshua Messiah and His Apostles are Yahdaim/Hebrews. As Yahdaim-People of Yahweh; they spoke, thought and scribed in Hebrew. They shunned Babylonish, Alexandrian, Romish and Hellenistic influences.

The Hellenic concept of Logos already was existant in the Ancient World before the advent of Yahshua Messiah. The Hellenistic 'Logos' was not the intent of the apostle Yachanan when he scribed 1 Yahchanan. Rather plan, which even the Greek dictionary offers as a meaning for Logos.



We see that the term logos was defined by the Christians according to the interpretations of pagan influenced philosophers in order to promote a false pagan God-savior in the Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume 7, page 449.

LOGOS (Greek:"word,"reason, or plan"), plural logoi, in Greek philosophy and theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning. Though the concept defined by the term logos is found in Greek, Indian, Egyptian, and Persian philosophical and theological systems, it became particularly significant in Christian writings and doctrines to describe or define the role of Jesus Christ as the principle of God active in the creation and the continuation structuring of the cosmos and in revealing the divine plan of salvation to man. It thus underlies the basic Christian doctrine of the pre-existence of Jesus.
The identification of Jesus with the logos was further developed in the early church but more on the basis of Greek philosophical ideas than on Old Testament motifs.


The Religions of Ancient Greece and Babylonia, by A. H. Sayce. pages 229-230, clearly tells us that the Greek philosophical ideas were developed in Alexandria, Egypt from the pagan mystery religions.

Many of the theories of Egyptian religion, modified and transformed no doubt, have penetrated into the theology of Christian Europe, and form, as it were, part of the woof in the web of modern religious thought. Christian theology was largely organized and nurtured in the schools of Alexandria, and Alexandria was not only the meetingplace of East and West, it was also the place where the decrepit theology of Egypt was revivified by contact with the speculative philosophy of Greece.
Perhaps, however, the indebtedness of Christian theological theory to ancient Egyptian dogma is nowhere more striking than in the doctrine of the Trinity. The very terms used of it by Christian theologians meet us again in the inscriptions and papyri of Egypt.
Originally the trinity was a triad like those we find in Babylonian mythology. The triad consisted of a divine father, wife, and son.
The father became the son and the son the father through all time, and of both alike the mother was but another

[dedicate]

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto him to show unto his servants the things wich must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John....

Who bare record of the word of God. And of the testimony of Jesus Christ and of all things he saw.

Blessed is he that READITH and they that hear the words of this prophecy and keep those things that are written therein".

Seems pretty clear. -- God given prophecy, given to Jesus and through an angel delivered to John to write down, so that all may read and hear "For the time is at hand"

[checkmate]

Jesus didnt write the bible. That begs the question why not?

And is it mentioned somewhere in the bible that he wanted it written down...?

If not, is the NT a betrayal of jesus's intention?

I was actually contemplating this very question this morning. It just doesn't make sense.

[newdecades]

from what i've read, it seems like most of the new testament was written by people who didn't even witness what they wrote about. does anyone know anything about this?

[stfd]

I was actually contemplating this very question this morning. It just doesn't make sense.

He didn't actually say ,precisely, that His words should be put in letters in a book. But then he never said that we should play footbal or enjoy nice cars,yet some of us do enjoy those things.

Jesus DID say that his word should be spread, passed to as many nations as possible.It seemed logical and practical to actually put His words into letters in a book to better communicate His message to the generations to come.

History changes to legend and legend to myth , is exactly how some regard Christianity right now. If it would have never been written (the Bible) the message would have likely 'died' with time - along with the generations carying it.

[synergy777]

http://www.redicecreations.com/

The Piso Family and the Story of The Bible

"The New Testament, the Church, and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnius Piso family, who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testament and all the characters in it - Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, and John the Baptist - are all fictional."

Abelard Reuchlin

****************

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_piso.htm

How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has bee for us"

Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

- About Josephus ' Mention of "Jesus" - and other NT characters

- Alias Identities In Ancient History - How and Why they were Used

- Bush-Windsor-Piso Bloodline Chart

- Flavius Josephus Was Really Arrius Piso

- Josephus' Deliberate Deception

- Harvard's 1st Century History

- The Synthesis Of Christianity - How and Why Ancient Rulers Needed to Create a Universal Religion

- Who Wrote The New Testament?

-----

Supportive Information

- About William Whiston

- Against Apion - by Flavius Josephus

-----

Related Reports

- The Bushes and The New World Order - Main File

- The Dark History of The Vatican - Main File

[stfd]

http://www.redicecreations.com/

The Piso Family and the Story of The Bible

"The New Testament, the Church, and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnius Piso family, who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testament and all the characters in it - Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, and John the Baptist - are all fictional."

Abelard Reuchlin

****************

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_piso.htm

How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has bee for us"

Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

- About Josephus ' Mention of "Jesus" - and other NT characters

- Alias Identities In Ancient History - How and Why they were Used

- Bush-Windsor-Piso Bloodline Chart

- Flavius Josephus Was Really Arrius Piso

- Josephus' Deliberate Deception

- Harvard's 1st Century History

- The Synthesis Of Christianity - How and Why Ancient Rulers Needed to Create a Universal Religion

- Who Wrote The New Testament?

-----

Supportive Information

- About William Whiston

- Against Apion - by Flavius Josephus

-----

Related Reports

- The Bushes and The New World Order - Main File

- The Dark History of The Vatican - Main File

The Bible is, among other things, a writting reflecting Jesus's teachings and a chronological representation of facts from that period of time.

Additionally. the Papacy, Catholic Chruch etc did not exist at the time when the Bible was first put into letters.

[phildee3]

Jesus DID say that his word should be spread, passed to as many nations as possible.It seemed logical and practical to actually put His words into letters in a book to better communicate His message to the generations to come.



When the vast majority of people couldn't read?? :eek:

[phildee3]

It seemed logical and practical to actually put His words into letters in a book to better communicate His message to the generations to come.



Not when they believed that the second coming was imminent -
within the lifetime of the current generation.

[stfd]

When the vast majority of people couldn't read?? :eek:

Yes,unfortunatelly at the time, the vast majority couldn't read.
That however, cant be used as a relevant argument against the validity of the writings.

And yes,people got misled mostly because they couldnt verify that which was fed to them.But again, what was fed to them was not the truth and nothing but the truth but a twisted 'version' meant to precisely serve those using it.

[phildee3]

Yes,unfortunatelly at the time, the vast majority couldn't read.
That however, cant be used as a relevant argument against the validity of the writings.



Why not?

(I'm personally not arguing against the validity of the writings -
only claiming that oral transmission was the primary form of spreading the gospel in the early days).

[dankai]

Jesus Frequently quoted scripture when he was preaching to the people. The disciples were with Jesus as witnesses for his life, death and resurrection, so there is no doubt that Jesus wanted these important events to be recorded for mankind to read for themselves. (Although many still don't believe)

Remember, Jesus is God manifest in Human form ... and God (Being The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) has throughout history commanded his people to write down certain elements of His Word. (I.E. The Ten Commandments, Prophecies, Parables, The Creation ... EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE BIBLE!)
Since it was commanded for things to be written down in the past as you stated, would anything need to be written down after the Word was actually made manifest for all to use as a living example?
Just a question.
<sigh>

[stfd]

When the vast majority of people couldn't read?? :eek:

It was never meant to aim - only- at the generations existing in those times.
It was/is meant as a very long shot operation.

[dankai]

Not when they believed that the second coming was imminent -
within the lifetime of the current generation.
Great point.

[dankai]

http://www.redicecreations.com/

The Piso Family and the Story of The Bible

"The New Testament, the Church, and Christianity, were all the creation of the Calpurnius Piso family, who were Roman aristocrats. The New Testament and all the characters in it - Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Marys, all the disciples, apostles, Paul, and John the Baptist - are all fictional."

Abelard Reuchlin

****************

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_piso.htm

How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has bee for us"

Pope Leo X (1513-1521)

- About Josephus ' Mention of "Jesus" - and other NT characters

- Alias Identities In Ancient History - How and Why they were Used

- Bush-Windsor-Piso Bloodline Chart

- Flavius Josephus Was Really Arrius Piso

- Josephus' Deliberate Deception

- Harvard's 1st Century History

- The Synthesis Of Christianity - How and Why Ancient Rulers Needed to Create a Universal Religion

- Who Wrote The New Testament?

-----

Supportive Information

- About William Whiston

- Against Apion - by Flavius Josephus

-----

Related Reports

- The Bushes and The New World Order - Main File

- The Dark History of The Vatican - Main File
Anyone not locked into a cultish way of thinking will research this for themselves. However, I doubt many will.

[stfd]

Why not?

(I'm personally not arguing against the validity of the writings -
only claiming that oral transmission was the primary form of spreading the gospel in the early days).

How can the people's inabillity to read be held as a valid argument against the validity of the writing ?
Makes no sense to me :confused:

[stfd]

If one man speaks the truth and a thousand other men say/believe that the one man is wrong it doesn't mean that he actually IS wrong.
Simply means that he is a minority.
I believe D.I. mentioned this also.
Truth is not determined by the actual number of people which support it, but by it's nature alone.
Think about this...

[phildee3]

How can the people's inabillity to read be held as a valid argument against the validity of the writing ?



Are you talking about the validity of the act of writng ot the vaidity of the content?

I'm talking about the former.

Drael might want to pick up on this since my position is more ageeable.

[thirdwave]

The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

I also find that so negative, what about the mothers and daughters?


..i know ..i know , Im just not getting it, maybe girls are so special they thought they would leave them for Season 3.... I mean the Third Testament.

[stfd]

Are you talking about the validity of the act of writng ot the vaidity of the content?

I'm talking about the former.

Drael might want to pick up on this since my position is more ageeable.


Im talking abou the validity of both the writings and about the fact that was put in letters.

[stfd]

I also find that so negative, what about the mothers and daughters?


..i know ..i know , Im just not getting it, maybe girls are so special they thought they would leave them for Season 3.... I mean the Third Testament.

What exactly do you find negative ?
Would it make you feel better if it was mother-doughter-Holy spirit ?

What's the point of the comment anyway , just curious.

[phildee3]

How can the people's inabillity to read be held as a valid argument against the validity of the [act of] writing ?



Refining petrol would be an invalid act if all you have is a steam engine, wouldn't it!

[thirdwave]

What exactly do you find negative ?
Would it make you feel better if it was mother-doughter-Holy spirit ?

What's the point of the comment anyway , just curious.

no, it would make me feel better if the energy was not divided at all, if you are talking "god" that is.

I view god as Male and Female.... and that it could not exist without the other.

[phildee3]

no, it would make me feel better if the energy was not divided at all, if you are talking "god" that is.

I view god as Male and Female.... and that it could not exist without the other.



"God" is neither.
He/she/it is androgynous.

"Father," and "he," is generic.

[stfd]

Refining petrol would be an invalid act if all you have is a steam engine, wouldn't it!

If you would -only- have a steam engine then refining petrol would be a useless,pointless process.
At the time when trains were pulled by steam turbine engines, the technology wasn't sufficiently developed or unavailable in order to have those trains pulled by internal combustion engines.

I do like the way u've put it ! :)

However,as the technology became available engines were also greatly improved, internal combustion engines became available.

At the time the Bible was put onto paper initially,the grand majority of the people couldn't read or write yet as time passed more and more learned how to do it.

[stfd]

no, it would make me feel better if the energy was not divided at all, if you are talking "god" that is.

I view god as Male and Female.... and that it could not exist without the other.

Sure,you have the right to view things and interpret them in whichever way seems right to you. We all have this right.
"Energy" as you call it isn't divided, is all one ; three parts , yet unity.

[thirdwave]

Sure,you have the right to view things and interpret them in whichever way seems right to you. We all have this right.
"Energy" as you call it isn't divided, is all one ; three parts , yet unity.

Well its great that you take it this way... and if you were to right a "stfd version" it would be more to my taste.

a few texts in the NT promoting such and a few less promoting the other would have done the other versions a world of good IMO.

[amandaooo]

I think so. In the fact that when Peter rejected him three times he had to accept him three times. So that was when Jesus said he would be the ROCK (church) on which he would build apon.

It's interesting all this quickening to denounce Jesus/Yashewa etc. I believe He is the ONLY way to salvation or you are still in your sin - ergo accepted the devil. Not to say that we can be judgemental about it all but you know... Hell exists people!!!

[phildee3]

If you would -only- have a steam engine then refining petrol would be a useless,pointless process.
At the time when trains were pulled by steam turbine engines, the technology wasn't sufficiently developed or unavailable in order to have those trains pulled by internal combustion engines.

I do like the way u've put it ! :)

However,as the technology became available engines were also greatly improved, internal combustion engines became available.



That's when they started refining petrol, not before.

[stfd]

That's when they started refining petrol, not before.

lol you lost me !

rephrase that please.

[stfd]

Well its great that you take it this way... and if you were to right a "stfd version" it would be more to my taste.

a few texts in the NT promoting such and a few less promoting the other would have done the other versions a world of good IMO.

Well a lot has to do with the way you 'take it'.
I didnt get the part when you said the New Testament was promoting something.
Can you say that again ?

[newdecades]

It's interesting all this quickening to denounce Jesus/Yashewa etc. I believe He is the ONLY way to salvation or you are still in your sin - ergo accepted the devil. Not to say that we can be judgemental about it all but you know... Hell exists people!!!

so you believe all the buddhists, hindus, and people who never heard of jesus lived and died in sin? that's a depressing belief. hell is going to be crowded;)

[stfd]

so you believe all the buddhists, hindus, and people who never heard of jesus lived and died in sin? that's a depressing belief. hell is going to be crowded;)

Hopefully he did not mean it that way.

[phildee3]

you lost me !

rephrase that please.



I'm just continuing the analogy.

Steam is to oral transmission
as internal combustion is to written (and so petrol is to ink).

[stfd]

I'm just continuing the analogy.

Steam is to oral transmission
as internal combustion is to written (and so petrol is to ink).

Okay, so yea peoples aptitudes 'evolved' with time just as technology continued to advance.
Like i said, the Word of the Bible wasn't meant only for those living in those times., but for many generations after.
Unlike this, and for example, steam engines are now basically obsolete.

[thirdwave]

"God" is neither.
He/she/it is androgynous.

"Father," and "he," is generic.

What does goddess mean then?

Well a lot has to do with the way you 'take it'.
I didnt get the part when you said the New Testament was promoting something.
Can you say that again ?

I mean that there is much in the bible that teaches otherwise and your interpretation is welcomed.

[phildee3]

Okay, so yea peoples aptitudes 'evolved' with time just as technology continued to advance.
Like i said, the Word of the Bible wasn't meant only for those living in those times., but for many generations after.



Why?
When they were sure that the second coming was imminent?

And how did they know that people would become literate?

[stfd]

What does goddess mean then?



I mean that there is much in the bible that teaches otherwise and your interpretation is welcomed.


"I mean that there is much in the bible that teaches otherwise and your interpretation is welcomed"

The Bible doesn't teach what you are thinking it does, but something you are apparently completelly unware.

[phildee3]

What does goddess mean then?



It means female god.

And those who use it are just as much in error as those who think god is male.

Gender facilitates reproduction among mortals to assure continuation of the species.
The immortals do not need to reproduce, therefore do not have gender.

[stfd]

It means female god.

And those who use it are just as much in error as those who think god is male.

Gender facilitates reproduction among mortals to assure continuation of the species.
The immortals do not need to reproduce, therefore do not have gender.

:D good comment !

[thirdwave]

"I mean that there is much in the bible that teaches otherwise and your interpretation is welcomed"

The Bible doesn't teach what you are thinking it does, but something you are apparently completelly unware.

well If that really is the case then Im not the only one that's un aware ... not by a llllllong shot, so its still very relevant.

As far as I can tell with the bible I have and plenty of texts you can google is that the bible very much points out that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ and follow his teachings of Christ, then you will not be saved...

Im very open to be corrected here.... if you can forward some texts that show otherwise or at least correct a few of the ones I am talking about I would be happy to keep an open mind.

[thirdwave]

It means female god.

And those who use it are just as much in error as those who think god is male.

Gender facilitates reproduction among mortals to assure continuation of the species.
The immortals do not need to reproduce, therefore do not have gender.

Gods can be used to express a certain type of being... like in the real translations of GODS.... rather than god.... , the GODS from the sky, yes this can be used for female goddess's as well... but I have never seen a female named as a God.... only a goddess... and male God is called a God... that this just proves my point further

and the "God" in the Christians texts is most certainly depicted as a male figure.




GOD

1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2. the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam.
3. (lowercase) one of several deities, esp. a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
4. (often lowercase) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.
5. Christian Science. the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.
6. (lowercase) an image of a deity; an idol.
7. (lowercase) any deified person or object.
8. (often lowercase) Gods, Theater.
a. the upper balcony in a theater.
b. the spectators in this part of the balcony.
–verb (used with object)
9. (lowercase) to regard or treat as a god; deify; idolize.
–interjection
10. (used to express disappointment, disbelief, weariness, frustration, annoyance, or the like): God, do we have to listen to this nonsense?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/god

[stfd]

well If that really is the case then Im not the only one that's un aware ... not by a llllllong shot, so its still very relevant.

As far as I can tell with the bible I have and plenty of texts you can google is that the bible very much points out that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ and follow his teachings of Christ, then you will not be saved...

Im very open to be corrected here.... if you can forward some texts that show otherwise or at least correct a few of the ones I am talking about I would be happy to keep an open mind.


"well If that really is the case then Im not the only one that's un aware ... not by a llllllong shot, so its still very relevant"
As i said in some previous post, if one man believes/thinks one thing and ten thousand believe another thing, opposite to the one thing this one man believes, it does NOT make the one man wrong in his belief - only a minority.
If ultimatelly the one one man's belief was right, but he however gave in due to great pressure from the ten thousand men opposing him , the we end up with 10,001 sheep.
:(
The Bible does NOT say that if you are not Christian you will ' burn in hell' .

One needs to know what the teachings were/are before following anything.
One must exert his/her full potential before following.
The word 'follow' in this context reffers to 'being one with' Jesus not following as sheep or as mindless beasts.

I am sure you can throw on here countless texts which more or less have been 'properly and deliberatelly manipulated' in order to server those MEN who seek to destroy this world.
Hence, as you can do that , i also can do the same; ALWAYS the best way is to do it all by yourself and for yourself, dont expect someone else will do it for you.

[newdecades]

The Bible does NOT say that if you are not Christian you will ' burn in hell' .


so you don't believe you have to believe jesus died and rose from the grave or else you will go to hell?
i wish more christians were like you stfd:)

[stfd]

so you don't believe you have to believe jesus died and rose from the grave or else you will go to hell?
i wish more christians were like you stfd:)

umm sure, if u wanna put it that way.
I only do my duty and stand for what i believe in.
If you choose to believe something else it is entirely, totally, your option.
As with the thing with the tree in the garden of Eden, one makes his choices picking from the available options;only the cath is that one needs to have ALL options available to choose from in order to efectivelly make the choice.

To add , believing the muslims, for example will all go 'and burn in hell' is idiotic to say the least. Besides who am i to pass such judgements onto those who are my equals.

[thirdwave]

"well If that really is the case then Im not the only one that's un aware ... not by a llllllong shot, so its still very relevant"

As i said in some previous post, if one man believes/thinks one thing and ten thousand believe another thing, opposite to the one thing this one man believes, it does NOT make the one man wrong in his belief - only a minority.
If ultimatelly the one one man's belief was right, but he however gave in due to great pressure from the ten thousand men opposing him , the we end up with 10,001 sheep.
:(

you missing my point... you are to busy defending your own views on it to see the bigger picture to what it has done... no one is saying you should not be aloud to think and do as you wish.... and its not the minority... most Christians are Catholics and Protestants for a start.


The Bible does NOT say that if you are not Christian you will ' burn in hell' .
Well I actually said "then you will not be saved" ... but it DOES say if you are not Christian you will burn in hell...


Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

and to prove the point I am trying to show you.....

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


and there is lots more, Now If you feel i am mistake and the bible does not teach that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ you will not be saved, then I will be prepared to be open minded and here your interpretation... as it stands I feel the bible preaches that unless you believe in Jesus Christ then you will go to hell... weather that is down to poor translation or what ever I don't know... but I think the subject is very relevant and worth while picking up on... even to re asses what "Christianity" should be about and understood as.....

You see, its not just a case of attacking it like you all go on about... there are clearly parts where it is an easy target... has it never crossed your mind that the original message and texts from such a person have been tampered with... and the bible is not %100 pure... there for a certain amount of independent thought is required? ..... if so why not admit that the bible is not the total truth?

I dont know anyone out to stop people from being a Christian... its simple a case of highlighting more info ...presenting more to the table.


One needs to know what the teachings were/are before following anything.
One must exert his/her full potential before following.
The word 'follow' in this context reffers to 'being one with' Jesus not following as sheep or as mindless beasts.
but that is what I meant.... I do not want to be at one with Jesus... I do not want to follow him I would like to choose another way. The Bible there for condemns me to hell.... its as simple as that. It also urges you to judge me as someone on the path to hell.... Hi! nice to meet you!.


I am sure you can throw on here countless texts which more or less have been 'properly and deliberatelly manipulated' in order to server those MEN who seek to destroy this world.

oh PLEASE!, as if Christianity has the golden token to salvation... when has it every proven its self?.. its a faith... we all have faiths....

Feel free to take one or two of the many examples here ... where I have checked every single quote in my own King James bible that was printed in the 1920s and they are all accurate and as far as I can see none of them have been taken out of context and they all express predictions and feelings towards people who do not think that Jesus is the son of God... or do not offer them selves to the holy spirit.... But take a couple of them and prove me wrong... by all means, I will hold my hands up.

[amethyst]

I also find that so negative, what about the mothers and daughters?


..i know ..i know , Im just not getting it, maybe girls are so special they thought they would leave them for Season 3.... I mean the Third Testament.

.......as a matter of fact, there will be a "season 3" in the "age' after this age finishes....it's called the millenium....period of 1,000 years.

I hope to be involved.

[thirdwave]

.......as a matter of fact, there will be a "season 3" in the "age' after this age commences....it's called the millenium....period of 1,000 years.

I hope to be involved.

Well I believe we are entering a new Aeon... what it will be like I don't know.... and neither do you.

thats our role.

[amethyst]

Well I believe we are entering a new Aeon... what it will be like I don't know.... and neither do you.

thats our role.

I agree...we don't know as we haven't lived it yet....but my siggie is a "clue" I think ;)

[thirdwave]

I agree...we don't know as we haven't lived it yet....but my siggie is a "clue" I think ;)

sounds awsome.... just a shame he has waited so long....

I hope this does not mean you are hedging all your hopes on him?

the way I see it, its our deal... and we are far more effective than peeps think.

the bible never really tells you how important YOU are and how effective YOU can be... this is what people need to learn IMO... that we are not just slaves to a system or a god... but we make that system and that god...

and our thoughts are the most powerful things in the universe.

[amethyst]

sounds awsome.... just a shame he has waited so long....

I hope this does not mean you are hedging all your hopes on him?

the way I see it, its our deal... and we are far more effective than peeps think.

the bible never really tells you how important YOU are and how effective YOU can be... this is what people need to learn IMO... that we are not just slaves to a system or a god... but we make that system and that god...

YES it does........

and our thoughts are the most powerful things in the universe.

"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;" (1st Peter 2:9)

These are the children of God.

[stfd]

you missing my point... you are to busy defending your own views on it to see the bigger picture to what it has done... no one is saying you should not be aloud to think and do as you wish.... and its not the minority... most Christians are Catholics and Protestants for a start.


Well I actually said "then you will not be saved" ... but it DOES say if you are not Christian you will burn in hell...



and to prove the point I am trying to show you.....


















and there is lots more, Now If you feel i am mistake and the bible does not teach that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ you will not be saved, then I will be prepared to be open minded and here your interpretation... as it stands I feel the bible preaches that unless you believe in Jesus Christ then you will go to hell... weather that is down to poor translation or what ever I don't know... but I think the subject is very relevant and worth while picking up on... even to re asses what "Christianity" should be about and understood as.....

You see, its not just a case of attacking it like you all go on about... there are clearly parts where it is an easy target... has it never crossed your mind that the original message and texts from such a person have been tampered with... and the bible is not %100 pure... there for a certain amount of independent thought is required? ..... if so why not admit that the bible is not the total truth?

I dont know anyone out to stop people from being a Christian... its simple a case of highlighting more info ...presenting more to the table.


but that is what I meant.... I do not want to be at one with Jesus... I do not want to follow him I would like to choose another way. The Bible there for condemns me to hell.... its as simple as that. It also urges you to judge me as someone on the path to hell.... Hi! nice to meet you!.




oh PLEASE!, as if Christianity has the golden token to salvation... when has it every proven its self?.. its a faith... we all have faiths....

Feel free to take one or two of the many examples here ... where I have checked every single quote in my own King James bible that was printed in the 1920s and they are all accurate and as far as I can see none of them have been taken out of context and they all express predictions and feelings towards people who do not think that Jesus is the son of God... or do not offer them selves to the holy spirit.... But take a couple of them and prove me wrong... by all means, I will hold my hands up.



I shouldn't actually be doing this but here you go.
I will pick one of the verses, one which i like a lot:

"John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"

First of all:Which are the core values of Christianity?
-Love
-Peace
-Understanding
-Unity
Those are the values which Jesus preached during His time on earth, hence they became the core values of Christianity.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life" --> represents those core values,that once adhered to or simply followed would allow one to be one with the Father.
In other words , follow those things which Jesus preached (listed above) and it will all be alright.

"no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"
Only by following those core necesarry values would one be reunited with the Father.

Conclussion:

Values<=>Jesus's teachings

Jesus's teachings<=> Christianity => Christianity = values

Therefore:
A man following those values, guiding his life precisely by them will , ultimatelly be one with the Father.

-Now, how is this offensive ?-



"oh PLEASE!, as if Christianity has the golden token to salvation... when has it every proven its self?.. its a faith... we all have faiths.... "

:) i will no longer respond if you dont keep it cool.




"You see, its not just a case of attacking it like you all go on about... there are clearly parts where it is an easy target... has it never crossed your mind that the original message and texts from such a person have been tampered with... and the bible is not %100 pure... there for a certain amount of independent thought is required? ..... if so why not admit that the bible is not the total truth?"

The Bible and Christianity have been targets since their begining, no point stoping now right ?
Actually it has crossed my mind , believe it or not ... people did twisted things to serve their ends obviously. While i could not point what were those things , i will say this - when in doubt , look inside you. Think about it , think how the thing you are about to do will turn out in the end. Be a good man each day , use common sense. Powerfull people on this earth can make people do things, (they can change verse in Bible for example) but the CANNOT have your soul , unless you give it away.
That is in your keeping lone.

Good luck:)

[phildee3]

so you don't believe you have to believe jesus died and rose from the grave or else you will go to hell?
i wish more christians were like you stfd



Me too.

Punishment is administered by the OT god of the Jews.
The "father" of Christ is all-forgiving.

Different god.

[phildee3]

If you feel i am mistake and the bible does not teach that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ you will not be saved, then I will be prepared to be open minded and here your interpretation... as it stands I feel the bible preaches that unless you believe in Jesus Christ then you will go to hell...



To "not be saved" doesn't necessarily mean "to go to hell."

[thirdwave]

To "not be saved" doesn't necessarily mean "to go to hell."

damned does... condemned does... not see life but the wrath of god does not sound to nice... dieing in your sins sounds pretty bad.... being denied Heaven is not to bright either, as others are excepted...

[thirdwave]

"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;" (1st Peter 2:9)

These are the children of God.

dear me, you are so brainwashed in it you just dont get it do you..... That does not tell how important YOU are.... it tells you how important it is that YOU be HIS!.

Royal priesthood? .... Holy nation? ..special people? ...you out of darkness into His marvelous light?? ... only special if you are in his gang? ... and nothing without him it seems?

that is nothing to do with individualism..... it is simply telling you how important it is that YOU become HIS.

[thirdwave]

"John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"

First of all:Which are the core values of Christianity?
-Love
-Peace
-Understanding
-Unity


Ok, right...

So these are the core values, but are they? ... Love?... yes allthough there is stuff in the bible that is not allways of unconditional love...

Peace, can only be found through Christ acourding to the bible...
Understanding, Can only be had through Jesus

and as for Unity, it will only unify those who worship Jesus....

So firstly these laws may be true to those who worship Jesus, but they are only offered to them.... those who do not worship Jesus are not offered all these qualities and are only warned that without Jesus they go without them.
Those are the values which Jesus preached during His time on earth, hence they became the core values of Christianity... which is one of my points.


"I am the way, the truth, and the life" --> represents those core values,that once adhered to or simply followed would allow one to be one with the Father.
Of course.... So you are talking this as him saying "What I tell you is the way of truth and the way life should be...."

So are you saying that it has been translated wrong or this is just the way you think he meant?

In other words , follow those things which Jesus preached (listed above) and it will all be alright.

But do you not think in the context where he claims to be the messiah and the son of God.... when he says I am the way... does that not suggest more than just what he preaches? ...

"no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"
Only by following those core necesarry values would one be reunited with the Father.
again its the same... and again it is saying that those who do not follow my teachings cant go to heaven..... simple as that, when there are other teachings of peace that are not necessary of the same teachings Jesus taught.

Why did he leave these words so open for misinterpretation? ... because Im sure you will admit they have been interpreted in all kind of different and wrong ways...as we have seen over the years and still today.



Conclussion:

Values<=>Jesus's teachings

Jesus's teachings<=> Christianity => Christianity = values

Therefore:
A man following those values, guiding his life precisely by them will , ultimatelly be one with the Father.

-Now, how is this offensive ?-

Well you have just highlighted what I was pointing out.... and not all of his values are of everyone's value..... and the values we all share can only be shared not only if you agree with his values but also if you deny him as the son of God.



:) i will no longer respond if you dont keep it cool.

Im cool, I just don't know where Christianity has proven its self to the planet to get such trust.




The Bible and Christianity have been targets since their begining, no point stoping now right ?
Actually it has crossed my mind , believe it or not ... people did twisted things to serve their ends obviously. While i could not point what were those things , i will say this - when in doubt , look inside you. Think about it , think how the thing you are about to do will turn out in the end. Be a good man each day , use common sense. Powerfull people on this earth can make people do things, (they can change verse in Bible for example) but the CANNOT have your soul , unless you give it away.
That is in your keeping lone.

Good luck:)

My feelings are the bible is not an honest representation of what christians really want..... its like a book of hope that somone is going to save us....

while there are obviously words of wisdom within it there are also words that are not so wise...

I think Christians should learn to understand that and look to re evaluate the faith and bring it back down to the core of what it was once about...

[stfd]

Ok, right...

So these are the core values, but are they? ... Love?... yes allthough there is stuff in the bible that is not allways of unconditional love...

Peace, can only be found through Christ acourding to the bible...
Understanding, Can only be had through Jesus

and as for Unity, it will only unify those who worship Jesus....

So firstly these laws may be true to those who worship Jesus, but they are only offered to them.... those who do not worship Jesus are not offered all these qualities and are only warned that without Jesus they go without them.
Those are the values which Jesus preached during His time on earth, hence they became the core values of Christianity... which is one of my points.



Of course.... So you are talking this as him saying "What I tell you is the way of truth and the way life should be...."

So are you saying that it has been translated wrong or this is just the way you think he meant?



But do you not think in the context where he claims to be the messiah and the son of God.... when he says I am the way... does that not suggest more than just what he preaches? ...


again its the same... and again it is saying that those who do not follow my teachings cant go to heaven..... simple as that, when there are other teachings of peace that are not necessary of the same teachings Jesus taught.

Why did he leave these words so open for misinterpretation? ... because Im sure you will admit they have been interpreted in all kind of different and wrong ways...as we have seen over the years and still today.





Well you have just highlighted what I was pointing out.... and not all of his values are of everyone's value..... and the values we all share can only be shared not only if you agree with his values but also if you deny him as the son of God.





Im cool, I just don't know where Christianity has proven its self to the planet to get such trust.






My feelings are the bible is not an honest representation of what christians really want..... its like a book of hope that somone is going to save us....

while there are obviously words of wisdom within it there are also words that are not so wise...

I think Christians should learn to understand that and look to re evaluate the faith and bring it back down to the core of what it was once about...

To each his own;we can only hope that our belief and set of values will properly guide us.

[thirdwave]

To each his own;we can only hope that our belief and set of values will properly guide us.

I agree, We all have a path to walk and I wish everyone on their path all the best and also ask they respect others paths...

[stfd]

I agree, We all have a path to walk and I wish everyone on their path all the best and also ask they respect others paths...

cheers:)

[thirdwave]

cheers:)

No problem :)

[armoured_amazon]

dear me, you are so brainwashed in it you just dont get it do you..... That does not tell how important YOU are.... it tells you how important it is that YOU be HIS!.....that is nothing to do with individualism..... it is simply telling you how important it is that YOU become HIS.

No man is an island. We are all extensions of the Creator; all branches of the same tree. Of course it is important that we are part of God and don't chop our limb off. A branch sawn off will wither and die.

[stfd]

No man is an island. We are all extensions of the Creator; all branches of the same tree. Of course it is important that we are part of God and don't chop our limb off. A branch sawn off will wither and die.

hehe yup !

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Here is a pertinent Chapter which give a 'Peek' into the 'Big Picture'. In many ways it 'Says it all!'

As you know there are Two Resurrections, this is so everybody gets personal attention, a Meet and Greet with Yahweh and Yahshua. Every influence and thought, action a human has ever experienced is 'Stored in your HardDrive'. Everybody shall Bow and 'Download' to Yahweh, then you will be Judged by Yahshua.

Tell us what you think of this. Thank You? :)

Romans 14

Precepts of the Law of Liberty

Accept one who is weak in the faith, but not if he wants to argue and dispute.

For one believes that he may eat all Lawful things; another, who is weak, eats only vegetables. Do not let him who eats be despiteful of him who does not eat, and do not let him who does not eat condemn him who eats; for YHWH has accepted him into His House.

Who are you to condemn someone elses servant? To his own ruler he stands or falls. And he will stand, for YHWH is able to make him stand.

One person considers one Feast more holy than another; another considers every Feast of the same holiness. Let everyone be fully warned in his own mind.

He who keeps the Feast, keeps it to YHWH, for he gives thank to Yahweh. And he who eats, eats to Yahweh, for he gives thank to Yahweh. And he who does not eat to Yahweh, is not eating to, nor is thanking Yahweh.

For none of us lives of himself, and no man dies of himself.

For if we live, we live in Yahweh forever; but if we die; we will die in Yahweh. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are Yahwehs.

For this very reason Yahshua died and was restored to life again, that He might be the Judge of both the dead and the living.

But why do you pass judgement on your brother? Or why do you look down upon your brother? For we will all stand before the Judgement Seat of Yahshua.

For it is written: As surely as I live, says Yahweh, every knee will bow to Me, and every tongue will confess to Yahweh.(Isayah 45:23)

So then, each one of us will give an account of himself to Yahweh.

Therefore, let us stop passing judgement on one another. Instead, set your mind not to put any stumblingblock, or an occasion of falling, in our brothers way.

For I know, and am convinced by Yahshuah Messiah, that nothing is common in itself; except to the one accounting anything to be common-to that man, it is common.

But if your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not destroy him for whom Yahshua died, with your food.

Therefore do not allow your righteousness to be spoken of as evil.

For the Kingdom of Yahweh is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit:

This is the Essence of the Book

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

This is pertinent to your initial Query.

Luke 1:1-4

since many have undertaken to arrange an orderly narrative of the events that have come to fullfillment among us-

Just as they were handed down to us by those who, from the beginning, were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word(the Law and the Prophets)

I also have decided after having diligently searched and accurately traced the course from the very first, to write to you an orderly account in order that you might be strengthened, brothers in Yahweh,

So that you may know the sure validity of the instruction you have received.

So Luke, besides being a 'True Believer' is an 'Embedded Investigative Journalist'

Info: Origins of Gospels:

Luke
http://www.tektonics.org/ntdocdef/lukedef.html

The Rest:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=382725&postcount=3

The Literacy Rate amongst the General Hebrew Population was around %3.00; in Egypt at the time- %0.50

Pragmatic Literacy amongst the Hebrews was about %20.00

http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~barilm/illitera.html

Integrity of the Texts:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=384902&postcount=10

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28141

There is alot of Scientific and Historic Evidence that bolsters may aspects of the Biblical Narrative.

[phildee3]

To "not be saved" doesn't necessarily mean "to go to hell."

damned does... condemned does...



No, they just mean to be found guilty.

To be sent to "hell" is a sentence.



not see life but the wrath of god does not sound to nice...



It's not supposed to!
You're supposed to be terrorised into obedience by the wrath of Yahweh (the OT god).

The NT god is not vengeful but all-forgiving.
However, if you don't accept that forgiveness you are condemned (ie. remain in your guilt) until you do.



dieing in your sins sounds pretty bad....



It does, doesn't it?
But there is no such thing as death.
That's Yahweh's lie to get you to comply.



being denied Heaven is not to bright either,



oh, it's not so bad here on earth -
for a while, anyway.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

You're supposed to be terrorised into obedience by the wrath of Yahweh (the OT god).

The NT god is not vengeful but all-forgiving.
However, if you don't accept that forgiveness you are condemned (ie. remain in your guilt) until you do.

Father Yahweh is the Creator Being of both the Old Testament and the New Testament. This is proven by the entirety of Scripture, both the Old and New Testament.

Although you are most certainly 'Free' to believe whatever you desire, to declare others wrong without supporting evidence is underwhelming.

As we have demonstrated in the Gnosticism Thread, it is impossible to utilise Scripture to 'Make your case'.

What say you?


phildee3; have you read the Bible? the Old Testament? the New Testament? It does not seem so.

This is why. Your declarations are the opposite to what is actually written, when kept within its legitimate Contextural 'Sense'. I don't think you can see from Forest from the Tree.


The Tao of Yahweh :)

[stfd]

No, they just mean to be found guilty.

To be sent to "hell" is a sentence.



It's not supposed to!
You're supposed to be terrorised into obedience by the wrath of Yahweh (the OT god).

The NT god is not vengeful but all-forgiving.
However, if you don't accept that forgiveness you are condemned (ie. remain in your guilt) until you do.



It does, doesn't it?
But there is no such thing as death.
That's Yahweh's lie to get you to comply.



oh, it's not so bad here on earth -
for a while, anyway.



This perception that there are two 'Gods', one in Old Testament, and another in the New Testament is actually wrong...
There is only one God;the big change happened once Jesus the man, sacrificed Himself for humanity, erasing all sins (up to that point).

[phildee3]

What say you?



Nothing can be proven.

Truth is truth.
Falsity is falsity.

"Let your yea be yea, and your nay be nay"

and let each decide for themselves which is which by using their inner discernment.

All shall one day find the truth.

[phildee3]

This perception that there are two 'Gods', one in Old Testament, and another in the New Testament is actually wrong...
There is only one God;the big change happened once Jesus the man, sacrificed Himself for humanity, erasing all sins (up to that point).



Are you saying that God is changable?

That s/he was once full of wrath and vengeance but then became all-forgiving, unconditional Love?

[armoured_amazon]

Are you saying that God is changable?

That s/he was once full of wrath and vengeance but then became all-forgiving, unconditional Love?

God WAS full of love in the Old Testament. You just read the punishments and ignore the rest.

[stfd]

Are you saying that God is changable?

That s/he was once full of wrath and vengeance but then became all-forgiving, unconditional Love?

L O L
Where did i say that ... ?
God is both full of wrath and all-forgiving.
Why would you put words in my mouth?

[phildee3]

God is both full of wrath and all-forgiving.



If s/he is ALL-forgiving (ie 100%),
and FULL of wrath (ie 100%)
then wrath = forgiveness! :eek:

(PS I didn't say that you said it.
I asked if you did.
Read the posts, dude!).

[thirdwave]

No, they just mean to be found guilty.
To be sent to "hell" is a sentence.


my word if you were to clutch at any more straws you could build your self a straw shed.

ok so if i was to agree for argument sake... then what does the bible claim that happens to people damned people?

let me show you.


Thessalonians

1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


It's not supposed to!
You're supposed to be terrorised into obedience by the wrath of Yahweh (the OT god).


eeerrr no, these texts are taken from the NT.... and most of them are meant to be the words of Jesus..

but yes you are meant to be terrorised... and I believe that much of these texts were written to frighten people into conformity.... and to brainwash them into being religious and fearing and pointing the finger at those who were not... Admittedly the OT was far worse... although Jesus supported the OT, and certainly made no effort to criticise it.


The NT god is not vengeful but all-forgiving.
However, if you don't accept that forgiveness you are condemned (ie. remain in your guilt) until you do.

Like I say the old tool was far worse.... but I have been talking about the NT and useing NT quotes... NOT OT ones...... and I do not except your logic where it is ok because if you submit to the Lord you will be ok... It says no where anything like

"all man can walk his own path and does not have to worship me... for he can havath his own relationship with the father... or the mother in heaven... for all our love is the same..." .. yadda yadda... No... its all based on him being the Son of God....and his words....

If it was just his teachings of being good, then the message would have been out and there would be no need for Christianity.... just a good of secent knowledge....

and I would also point out that according to the NT forgiveness is not always on the menu.... as Matty boy points out..


Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.


It does, doesn't it?
But there is no such thing as death.
That's Yahweh's lie to get you to comply.
Yes... well thats what I am pointing out :rolleyes:

I don't want to get into a debate about what you personally feel is a truth as that's you opinion... fine enjoy!.,.. I wish you all the best with that...

I'm talking about the bible... not attacking your choices.


oh, it's not so bad here on earth -
for a while, anyway.
Well apparently it will be in the "last days".

[thirdwave]

You just read the punishments and ignore the rest.

lol, classic!

[stfd]

If s/he is ALL-forgiving (ie 100%),
and FULL of wrath (ie 100%)
then wrath = forgiveness! :eek:

(PS I didn't say that you said it.
I asked if you did.
Read the posts, dude!).

Well it works that way in math.
Doesn't work like that in this context.
He is all-forgiving meaning: He would forgive anything and anyone IF people actually seek to be forgiven.
He is full of wrath : He will pass the rightfull judgement onto all who deserve it.

[stfd]

Nothing can be proven.

Truth is truth.
Falsity is falsity.

"Let your yea be yea, and your nay be nay"

and let each decide for themselves which is which by using their inner discernment.

All shall one day find the truth.

i concur - freedom of choice

[phildee3]

Well it works that way in math.
Doesn't work like that in this context.
He is all-forgiving meaning: He would forgive anything and anyone IF people actually seek to be forgiven.



So, s/he gives conditional love?



He is full of wrath : He will pass the rightfull judgement onto all who deserve it.



Does this include hell for eternity?

I'm sorry stfd.
This is not my god.
I have a relationship with a being who is infinite, unconditional love.

S/he enfolds me in wings of tender mercy
and hurts when I err
so I don't have to.

Blessings to you
and everyone on this forum.

Philip +

[stfd]

So, s/he gives conditional love?



Does this include hell for eternity?

I'm sorry stfd.
This is not my god.
I have a relationship with a being who is infinite, unconditional love.

S/he enfolds me in wings of tender mercy
and hurts when I err
so I don't have to.

Blessings to you
and everyone on this forum.

Philip +

No, He offers unconditional love.
Conditional is only our acceptance of that which is right.

[phildee3]

He offers unconditional love.
Conditional is only our acceptance of that which is right.



and if we don't -

s/he still offers unconditional love
(that's the definition of "unconditional"!).

It is just us that can, or cannot, accept it.

[stfd]

and if we don't -

s/he still offers unconditional love
(that's the definition of "unconditional"!).

It is just us that can, or cannot, accept it.

Whether or not we accept His unconditional love is completely up to us.
He only offered it unconditionally.

And IF we choose not to 'embrace' this unconditional love then we ,obviously, will not get it.

[phildee3]

IF we choose not to 'embrace' this unconditional love then we ,obviously, will not get it.



Exactly.



He only offered it unconditionally.



Only???

Unconditional is all.

Meaning that s/he still loves those, who do not accept it, just as much!

[stfd]

Exactly.



Only???

Unconditional is all.

Meaning that s/he still loves those, who do not accept it, just as much!

He does love everyone equaly.Even those who choose not to love Him in return.

[stfd]

Exactly.



Only???

Unconditional is all.

Meaning that s/he still loves those, who do not accept it, just as much!

" He only offered it unconditionally"
I meant to say that is in an unconditional 'way' in which He loves all His creation.

[phildee3]

I meant to say that is in an unconditional 'way' in which He loves all His creation.



...and "unconditional" means regardless of who you are, or what you've done, yes?

[stfd]

...and "unconditional" means regardless of who you are, or what you've done, yes?

Regardless of who you are and what you have done yup.
The 'IF' come into play when it comes to us to do our part of the deal; meaning if we accept that which is offered to us.

See for example(in the Bible) the little story with the father that had two sons. One chooses to leave his father's house , while the other one stays.
However, in the end , the son who left realizes he made a grave mistake and decides to return. He asks to be forgiven and he is without hesitation and unconditionally.
The father never stopped loving his 'lost' son, loved him just as much as the one who remained by his side. He only hoped that one day his 'lost' son would return.

[phildee3]

Regardless of who you are and what you have done yup.

The 'IF' come into play when it comes to us to do our part of the deal; meaning if we accept that which is offered to us.



So we receive that love IF we accept it, right?

S/he doesn't love us only IF we accept that love, right?

So in his/her sight we are all the same, right?
(S/he is love, right?)

[stfd]

So we receive that love IF we accept it, right?

S/he doesn't love us only IF we accept that love, right?

So in his/her sight we are all the same, right?

We receive/benefit from , that love IF we accept it - yes.
He loves us equaly,EVEN if we don't love Him in return.
We are all equal in His eyes, all with same rights , all with the same potential.

[phildee3]

We receive/benefit from , that love IF we accept it - yes.
He loves us equaly,EVEN if we don't love Him in return.
We are all equal in His eyes, all with same rights , all with the same potential.



Excellent.
We are in full agreement!

so who is this describing?:

"He is full of wrath : He will pass the rightfull judgement onto all who deserve it." (msg #92)

[thirdwave]

God WAS full of love in the Old Testament. You just read the punishments and ignore the rest.

ok ... i was just paying attention to the NT really but here goes...


Exodus

29:11 And thou shalt kill the bullock before the LORD, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

29:12 And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar.

29:13 And thou shalt take all the fat that covereth the inwards, and the caul that is above the liver, and the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, and burn them upon the altar.

29:14 But the flesh of the bullock, and his skin, and his dung, shalt thou burn with fire without the camp: it is a sin offering. Burning dung for a sin offering
God instructs the priests to burn the dung of bullocks outside the camp as a sin offering.

29:15 Thou shalt also take one ram; and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram.

29:16 And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle it round about upon the altar.

29:17 And thou shalt cut the ram in pieces, and wash the inwards of him, and his legs, and put them unto his pieces, and unto his head.

29:18 And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the LORD: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

29:19 And thou shalt take the other ram; and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands upon the head of the ram.

29:20 Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about.
Smearing blood on ears, thumbs, and big toes

29:21 And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him: and he shall be hallowed, and his garments, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him.

29:22 Also thou shalt take of the ram the fat and the rump, and the fat that covereth the inwards, and the caul above the liver, and the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, and the right shoulder; for it is a ram of consecration:

29:23 And one loaf of bread, and one cake of oiled bread, and one wafer out of the basket of the unleavened bread that is before the LORD:

29:24 And thou shalt put all in the hands of Aaron, and in the hands of his sons; and shalt wave them for a wave offering before the LORD.

29:25 And thou shalt receive them of their hands, and burn them upon the altar for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour before the LORD: it is an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

29:26 And thou shalt take the breast of the ram of Aaron's consecration, and wave it for a wave offering before the LORD: and it shall be thy part.

29:27 And thou shalt sanctify the breast of the wave offering, and the shoulder of the heave offering, which is waved, and which is heaved up, of the ram of the consecration, even of that which is for Aaron, and of that which is for his sons:

29:28 And it shall be Aaron's and his sons' by a statute for ever from the children of Israel: for it is an heave offering>: and it shall be an heave offering from the children of Israel of the sacrifice of their peace offerings, even their heave offering unto the LORD.

29:29 And the holy garments of Aaron shall be his sons' after him, to be anointed therein, and to be consecrated in them.

29:30 And that son that is priest in his stead shall put them on seven days, when he cometh into the tabernacle of the congregation to minister in the holy place.

29:31 And thou shalt take the ram of the consecration, and seethe his flesh in the holy place.

Come on kids! ... put your coats on, we are off to church!

[stfd]

Excellent.
We are in full agreement!

so who is this describing?:

"He is full of wrath : He will pass the rightfull judgement onto all who deserve it." (msg #92)

Ah ok, iknow what you mean and wehere you want to get at now.

The thing is we only have this one life at aur disposal to make our choice. That is, to accept that unconditional love we have been discussing about.
This love is thre for us to be taken so to speak.It is out choice whether to accept it or not.
We have a lifetime to make our choice after which-the 'wrath' part comes into play.
Hope i responded to what you wanted.

[phildee3]

God WAS full of love in the Old Testament. You just read the punishments and ignore the rest.



The rest being...where?

My concordance is not being very helpful!

[armoured_amazon]

The rest being...where?

My concordance is not being very helpful!

Oh gosh, it can take a whole day/week/year to meditate on a single verse and ascertain its full meaning and you want me to talk about the entire OT on a forum? :eek:

[phildee3]

The thing is we only have this one life at aur disposal to make our choice.



This is contrary to my understanding.



We have a lifetime to make our choice after which-the 'wrath' part comes into play.



Even if you are right and I am wrong, how can the god that you have been describing in your last umpteen postings suddenly turn on us so?

[phildee3]

Oh gosh, it can take a whole day/week/year to meditate on a single verse and ascertain its full meaning and you want me to talk about the entire OT on a forum?



No, just one reference would be helpful.
I can't find one.

[stfd]

This is contrary to my understanding.



Even if you are right and I am wrong, how can the god that you have been describing in your last umpteen postings suddenly turn on us so?

Even if you are right and i am wrong, God has/is/will never turn on to his creation.
Where did i say that God turned on us ??

[stfd]

Even if you are right and i am wrong, God has/is/will never turn on to his creation.
Where did i say that God turned on us ??

It is only us who have/are/will always turn from Him.

[phildee3]

Even if you are right and i am wrong, God has/is/will never turn on to his creation.
Where did i say that God turned on us ??



"He loves us equaly, EVEN if we don't love Him in return.
We are all equal in His eyes, all with same rights , all with the same potential."

"He is full of wrath : He will pass the rightfull judgement onto all who deserve it."

Now, this is either one god turning on us,
OR
they are two different gods

(I reckon the latter).

[stfd]

"He loves us equaly, EVEN if we don't love Him in return.
We are all equal in His eyes, all with same rights , all with the same potential."

"He is full of wrath : He will pass the rightfull judgement onto all who deserve it."

Now, this is either one god turning on us,
OR
they are two different gods

(I reckon the latter).

Same One God, both full of wrath and all forgiving.

[phildee3]

Same One God, both full of wrath and all forgiving.



I think I'm having a deja vu.

Round and round and round it goes,
and where it stops nobody knows...

(anybody who wants to follow this further can pick it up at msg. #89).

Good night!

PS If anyone can break out of this loop, please post!

[armoured_amazon]

No, just one reference would be helpful.
I can't find one.

"And the Lord God said, 'It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet [a counterpart, fully compatible and complementary in every way] for him'
Genesis 2:18

THINK ABOUT IT! Adam and Eve, the progenitors of all mankind, were created in the image and likeness of Almighty God, with the potential to become like Him in every way. This awesome potential is the HIGHEST BLESSING and expression of His LOVE and GRACE that God can bestow upon the work of His hands!When we truly understand and grasp this fact, our love of God and appreciation for His grace grows deeper.

"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord....Noah was a JUST man [he was righteous] and perfect [that is, spiritually sincere and mature] in his generations, and Noah WALKED WITH GOD"
Genesis 6:8-9

"Get you out of your country, and from your kindred, and from your father's house, unto a land that I will show you: and I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you [an act of GRACE from God], and make your name great; and YOU SHALL BE A BLESSING; and I will bless them that bless you, and curse him that curses you: and in you shall ALL FAMILIES OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED [a prophecy of the coming grace and salvation through Jesus Christ]"
Genesis 12:1-3

" 'Escape for your life; look not behind you, neither stay in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed.' And Lot said unto them, 'Oh, not so, my Lord: behold now, Your servant has found GRACE in Your sight, and You have MAGNIFIED YOUR MERCY, which You have showed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die: behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape there...' "
Genesis 19:17-20

Exodus 34:6
Numbers 14:18
Deuteronomy 4:31
Nehemiah 9:17
Psalm 86:5
Psalm 86:15
Psalm 108:4
Psalm 145:8
Joel 2:13

While we might see one aspect of His nature revealed in certain passages of Scripture more than other aspects, He Himself does not change. He is love and mercy.

In the Old Testament, God provided a sacrificial system whereby atonement could be made for sin, but this sacrificial system was only temporary and merely looked forward to the coming of Jesus Christ who would die on the cross to make a real substitutionary atonement for sin.

The overall message tells us that the God of the Old Testament is a God of love, a God who seeks to bring salvation to the whole world.

The Old Testament God saves straight out of God’s love. The Old Testament does not, in its overall message, tell us that God’s holiness and perfection prevent God from simply offering forgiveness and salvation; neither does the Old Testament in its overall message portray God as a God of wrath who requires sacrificial violence to balance the scales of justice in order to save.

When the human race seems at a dead end, symbolized by Abraham and Sarah’s barrenness in Genesis 11, God intervenes to give them children, to make them a blessing for all the families of the earth. When the children of Abraham are trapped in brutal slavery in Egypt and cry out in their misery and despair, God intervenes to set them free.

When the freed slaves wander in the wilderness for 40 years, in part unprepared to construct a society that would serve long-term human well-being, God intervenes to give them the commandments. These commandments are a gift, meant to foster societal wholeness and justice. They are not requirements that must be met in order to gain God’s acceptance; they are directives given because of God’s acceptance.

When the people are given the land and prove unable to sustain wholeness and justice, they reap the consequences, but God does not abandon them. Rather, God intervenes to offer hope and empowerment, sustaining the people of the promise and giving them a future.

For one short Old Testament passage that portrays what God and salvation actually are like, consider Hosea 11:1-9. God loves God’s people, bringing them out of slavery in Egypt. ”I love him,…I called them,…I taught [them] to walk,…I healed them,…I led them with cords of human kindness, with bands of love. I was to them like those who lift infants to their cheeks. I bent down to them and fed them.”

Then the text of this love comes. The people “are bent on turning away from me.” God then speaks of the people suffering as a consequence, seeming to point toward the stereotypical retributive justice. The people hurt God, so God hurts back. But no: “How can I give you up?!” God cries. “My heart recoils within me; my compassion grows warm and tender. I will not execute my fierce anger; I will not again destroy [Israel]; for I am God and no mortal, the Holy One in your midst, and I will not come in wrath” (11:1-9).

God does not come in wrath in the end. God comes in suffering, persevering love. Justice for this God is about healing, not about retribution. This God responds to wrongdoing by seeking to repair, not by seeking to punish.
http://peacetheology.net/short-articles/seeing-mercy-in-the-old-testament/

[stfd]

I think I'm having a deja vu.

Round and round and round it goes,
and where it stops nobody knows...

I know you would prefer/like if i were to agree with you, just as i would prefer/like if you were to agree with me.
However i have my own beliefs, to which i chose to adhere,and you do have also yours.
We all have the 'universal right' to adhere to whichever set of values and beliefs seem best to us.

[phildee3]

"And the Lord God said, 'It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet [a counterpart, fully compatible and complementary in every way] for him'
Genesis 2:18



"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord....Noah was a JUST man [he was righteous] and perfect [that is, spiritually sincere and mature] in his generations, and Noah WALKED WITH GOD"
Genesis 6:8-9

"Get you out of your country, and from your kindred, and from your father's house, unto a land that I will show you: and I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you [an act of GRACE from God], and make your name great; and YOU SHALL BE A BLESSING; and I will bless them that bless you, and curse him that curses you: and in you shall ALL FAMILIES OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED [a prophecy of the coming grace and salvation through Jesus Christ]"
Genesis 12:1-3

" 'Escape for your life; look not behind you, neither stay in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed.' And Lot said unto them, 'Oh, not so, my Lord: behold now, Your servant has found GRACE in Your sight, and You have MAGNIFIED YOUR MERCY, which You have showed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die: behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape there...' "
Genesis 19:17-20

Exodus 34:6
Numbers 14:18
Deuteronomy 4:31
Nehemiah 9:17
Psalm 86:5
Psalm 86:15
Psalm 108:4
Psalm 145:8
Joel 2:13

While we might see one aspect of His nature revealed in certain passages of Scripture more than other aspects, He Himself does not change. He is love and mercy.

In the Old Testament, God provided a sacrificial system whereby atonement could be made for sin, but this sacrificial system was only temporary and merely looked forward to the coming of Jesus Christ who would die on the cross to make a real substitutionary atonement for sin.

There!!
Ten times bigger than the NT and not ONE mention of love (only your "interpretation").

Good night.

[phildee3]

I know you would prefer/like if i were to agree with you, just as i would prefer/like if you were to agree with me.
However i have my own beliefs, to which i chose to adhere,and you do have also yours.
We all have the 'universal right' to adhere to whichever set of values and beliefs seem best to us.



That someone who is infinite, unconditional love can banish somebody to eternal torment is beyond belief!!!
It's just plain bonkers!

G'night...

[armoured_amazon]

There!!
Ten times bigger than the NT and not ONE mention of love (only your "interpretation").

Good night.

There are none so blind as those who do not see. Good night.

[thirdwave]

In the Old Testament, God provided a sacrificial system whereby atonement could be made for sin, but this sacrificial system was only temporary and merely looked forward to the coming of Jesus Christ who would die on the cross to make a real substitutionary atonement for sin.


Ahhhhhh it was a Sacrificial system for sin???? ,.....AAAhhhhhh!!!!

Silly me!!!

thats ok then!!!


yeah... and Jesus came along and done the business one last time by letting him self be slaughtered to death.... So no more sacrifices would have to be made to God!!...

Ahhhhhh

got it!!!


the thing is.... people still sin.... apparently will still get punished for it...


No wonder Satan told God where to stick it!

I would have!!

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Phildee3, Love is amongst Yahweh finest Creations, a perfect complimentary quality of character for the Human Anthropomorphic Experience, a Foreshadow of Things to Come. 'When no more man shall learn war'

Alot depends on how you, define: Righteous/ness

Yahweh's Mercy
http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/sbs777/snotes/note0301.html
Reading: Exodus 34:1-8
English: Mercy = Refraining from inflicting punishment or pain on an offender
Hebrew: Chesed = loving kindness, chanan = graciously inclined, racham = to love and pity.
Greek: Eleeo = to be kind, beneficent

1. Our Merciful Father

When men describe themselves or their fellows they are inclined to tell of appearance, possessions, intelligence, skill, wealth, power or position. But when the Almighty describes Himself He speaks of His qualities - foremost amongst which He rates His quality of mercy.

Exodus 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
6: And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7: Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
8: And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.
Jeremiah 3:12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6: For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7: For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8: In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Deuteronomy 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31: (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God); he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
Psalm 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. 9: He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
James 5:11 ... the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

2. Mercy for the Repentant

Even though the Most High is an extremely merciful Being, His mercy is only extended to those who repent of their sins and sincerely request His mercy. It is not indiscriminately poured upon blatant sinners who have no intention of giving up sin.
Exodus 33:19 "... And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy."
Exodus 34:7 "Keeping mercy for thousands ... and that will by no means clear the guilty."
Psalm 59:5 "Thou therefore O Lord God of Hosts, the God of Israel, awake to visit all the heathen: be not merciful to any wicked transgressor. Selah!"
Jer. 3:13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.

3. Mercy for the Ignorant

There are of course times when people do not repent, simply because they do not realise that they are doing wrong. Yahweh is usually merciful in these instances (Acts 17:30), though He does warn and even punish sins of ignorance in an effort to bring the sinner to his senses. In other words, mercy is available, but only to repentant believers who request forgiveness. The enlightened but unrepentant transgressor, however, will not obtain mercy from God.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27: But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28: He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30: For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31: It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

4. Everlasting Mercy

There are many verses in the Bible which say that Yahweh's mercy is everlasting. Of course when sin ceases to exist, the need for repentance and mercy will vanish. But mercy itself, that tender-hearted loving-kindness and grace that springs from Yahweh's heart, will endure for all time.
Psalm 100:5 For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
Psalm 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
18: To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.
Psalm 136 Read this psalm through and note how almost every action of the Most High in His treatment of Israel was prompted by His love and mercy. Contrast Yahweh's terrifying punishment of the heathen with His tender mercies for His repentant people. Pause and consider the mercy of the Most High. It is abundant, free and everlasting to those who request it in the right spirit. But it is withheld from to the blatant sinner who knowingly opposes Yahweh's will.
Exodus 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

5. The Merciful Receive Mercy

No one is better placed to receive mercy than the merciful.
Be Merciful
2 Samuel 22:26 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful, and with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright.
27: With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury.
Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy.
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Matthew 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.


Repentance
Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4: And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.


Ignorance
Luke 23:34 ...Father forgive them for they know not what they do...


6. A Call to be Merciful

We live in an extremely brutal world; a world in which mental and physical cruelty are commonplace. Mercy is vanishing from the earth and people are becoming callous, pitiless and cruel. It is at a time like this that kindness and mercy are desperately needed. And what better channel could the Most High find to express His mercy to the world than the true believer himself. Consider Yahweh's appeal to His followers to be merciful.

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
Zechariah 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:
Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.




From the above we can see that showing mercy comes second to 'doing justly.' Mercy is a weightier matter than tithing. But it is not extended to unrepentant sinners unless they are totally ignorant of what they are doing. It is only when we look at Yahweh's mercy in this light that we can appreciate its worth and its place in the Judgement. Yahweh's mercy rejoices over judgement - whenever repentance is present - and every noble mind is gladdened when it does. But when repentance is contemptuously and continuously ignored, then His mercy gives way to judgement and punishment follows. These are eternal, spiritual facts we do well to keep in mind.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

We, as Humans are esteemed by Father Yahweh, we are created in His Image to become in His Likeness/Character-see above Post.

It is Yahweh who 'Stands Up for Humans in the Council of the Gods/Elohim and Lambasts the Gods/Elohim for mis-treating Humans.

Psalm 82:1-7—
1 Yahweh stands in the assembly of the gods (elohim), and He gives judgment among the gods (elohim)!

2 Yahweh says: How long will you defend the unjust, and show partiality to the sinners?

3 You should defend the weak and fatherless! You should maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed!

4 You should rescue the poor and needy, and deliver them from the hands of the wicked.

5 You know nothing, you understand nothing; you walk about in darkness, and all the foundations of the Earth are shaken because of you!

6 I have said: You are gods (elohim), you sons of the Most High;

7 And like Adam you will die. Just like all the other rulers, you will fall.

So who's the 'Bad Guy'?

Here is how much He esteems us.



Isayah 45:18—
For this is what Yahweh, Who created the heavens, Who is the Father, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited(by us, Humans), says: I am Yahweh, and there is no other source of power!

Psalm 8:6-8—
6 You made man to be the ruler over the works of Your hands; You will put all things under his feet;
7 All sheep and oxen; yes, all the beasts of the field;
8 All the fowls of the air and the fish of the sea, and whatever passes through the rivers in the seas will be under the rule of man.

Yahchanan 1:1—
In the beginning was the plan of Yahweh, and the plan was with Yahweh, and the plan was Yahweh's.


Genesis 1:26—
Then Yahweh said: I will make man in My image, according to My likeness; they will have rulership over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, over the cattle, and over all the Earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the Earth.

I Corinthians 6:3—
Do you not know that we will judge malakim? How much more, the things that pertain to this life?

Psalm 8:8—
All the fowls of the air and the fish of the sea, and whatever passes through the rivers in the seas will be under the rule of man.

Psalm 66:10—
For You, O Yahweh, have proved us. You have refined us as silver is refined.

Daniyl 12:10—
Many will be purified, and made white, and tried; tested; but the wicked will do wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but the wise will understand.

[FONT="Century Gothic"][COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]
Deuteronomy 32:4—
He is the Rock. His works are perfect; Yahweh's ways are justice indeed! He is the Father of truth, and does no wrong. Upright and Just is He.

I Kings 8:61—
Let your heart be perfect with Yahweh our Father, to walk in His statutes, and to keep His Laws, as it is this day.

Psalm 19:7—
The Laws of Yahweh are perfect, converting the whole person. The testimony of Yahweh is sure, making the simple ones wise.

II Timothy 3:16-17—
16 All Scripture that is given through inspiration of Yahweh is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;
17 That the man of Yahweh may become perfect, thoroughly furnished for every righteous work.

Hebrews 2:10—
For it was fitting for Him—on account of Whom are all things and through Whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory—to lead the Prince of their salvation to perfection through sufferings.

Hebrews 13:21—
Make you perfect in every righteous work to do His will; working in you that which is well pleasing in His sight, as He did in Yahshua messiah—to Yahweh Who belongs the glory forever and ever. HalleluYahweh!

Depends on how one defines: Righteous/ness

[tejas]

I shouldn't actually be doing this but here you go.
I will pick one of the verses, one which i like a lot:

"John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"

First of all:Which are the core values of Christianity?
-Love
-Peace
-Understanding
-Unity
Those are the values which Jesus preached during His time on earth, hence they became the core values of Christianity.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life" --> represents those core values,that once adhered to or simply followed would allow one to be one with the Father.
In other words , follow those things which Jesus preached (listed above) and it will all be alright.

"no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"
Only by following those core necesarry values would one be reunited with the Father.

Conclussion:

Values<=>Jesus's teachings

Jesus's teachings<=> Christianity => Christianity = values

Therefore:
A man following those values, guiding his life precisely by them will , ultimatelly be one with the Father.

-Now, how is this offensive ?-



"oh PLEASE!, as if Christianity has the golden token to salvation... when has it every proven its self?.. its a faith... we all have faiths.... "

:) i will no longer respond if you dont keep it cool.




"You see, its not just a case of attacking it like you all go on about... there are clearly parts where it is an easy target... has it never crossed your mind that the original message and texts from such a person have been tampered with... and the bible is not %100 pure... there for a certain amount of independent thought is required? ..... if so why not admit that the bible is not the total truth?"

The Bible and Christianity have been targets since their begining, no point stoping now right ?
Actually it has crossed my mind , believe it or not ... people did twisted things to serve their ends obviously. While i could not point what were those things , i will say this - when in doubt , look inside you. Think about it , think how the thing you are about to do will turn out in the end. Be a good man each day , use common sense. Powerfull people on this earth can make people do things, (they can change verse in Bible for example) but the CANNOT have your soul , unless you give it away.
That is in your keeping lone.

Good luck:)

Unfortunately my freind thats not how most christians interpret it.

I used to be a fundamentalist, I know that without a belief in jesus you go to hell is exactly the way the bible is interpreted.

[phildee3]

Love is amongst Yahweh finest Creations,



In the beginning - God was (to paraphrase John)
...obviously, if God is infinite and eternal.

God is love.

Therfore, love was not created.

[phildee3]

There are none so blind as those who do not see.



Of course.
Isn't that the definition of blindness?

[thirdwave]

Of course.
Isn't that the definition of blindness?

lol that's what i thought ..

[phildee3]

lol that's what i thought ..



aa should be more careful.
Dubya's scriptwriter might have her for plagerism! :p

[stfd]

Unfortunately my freind thats not how most christians interpret it.

I used to be a fundamentalist, I know that without a belief in jesus you go to hell is exactly the way the bible is interpreted.

Some call that Orthodoxy.

[phildee3]

Some call that Orthodoxy.



and both are self-righteous extremists.

[stfd]

and both are self-righteous extremists.

So this is where you wanted to get didn't you ?
I figured ...

No is not 'self-righteous' .
No is not extremist.

I really dont want to argue, i mean really there is no point.
pls ...

[phildee3]

No is not extremist.

I really dont want to argue, i mean really there is no point.
pls ...



Good.
Because you'd be arguing with almost everybody.
Fudamentalism has become extremist, most will agree.

And the beautiful, holy, Orthodox church has been hijacked by elitists who claim it to be THE "true faith."

Gimme a break!

[stfd]

Good.
Because you'd be arguing with almost everybody.
Fudamentalism has become extremist, most will agree.

And the beautiful, holy, Orthodox church has been hijacked by elitists who claim it to be THE "true faith."

Gimme a break!

Break given.
Later