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sparrow7
04-11-2008, 09:58 PM
interesting study, interesting question..


http://beyondthechurch.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!4FC0A0F52692E8ED!138.entry?_c=BlogPart



24 November
Paul The False Apostle
Paul, the False Apostle

By Scott Nelson

We have seen that Paul's picture of YHUH's sovereignty doesn't exist in the Scriptures. We might call this the DNA evidence against him (Doctrine Not Accurate). It is an important part of the case against him. But it is by no means all the evidence there is against his supposed authority. There is more than enough evidence to suggest that he was not even a true apostle of Yahu'sha let alone the greatest apostle who ever lived as he is so often eulogized.

There are a number of historical facts, quotations from Paul, and quotations from Yahu'sha recorded in the New Testament that leave us with some quite compelling evidence against his apostleship being recognized in heaven.

There are several interesting facts surrounding this case that should be noted and kept in mind. They are:

1. His apostleship was unrecognized by others.

Of the 22 times in the New Testament where Paul is referred to as an apostle, only twice is he referred to as an apostle by someone other than himself. These two instances came from the same person. Not from Yahu'sha or any of the original apostles, but from Paul's close traveling companion and personal press secretary Luke. Both accounts are found in Luke's record of the Acts of the Apostles, (chapter 14:4,14). Here Paul is referred to as an apostle along with Barnabas. By this time in the record, Luke would have been very familiar with Paul calling himself an apostle and was no doubt in agreement with Paul's assessment of himself. By these statistics alone, it is evident that Paul is by far his own biggest fan... and his side kick Luke was his number two fan. This leaves no one else anywhere in the Bible going on record as recognizing his apostleship!

2. His focus was uniquely self-ward.

No other epistle writer in the New Testament wrote like Paul. This would be true in several ways, but one facet is of particular interest when we are considering how Paul views himself. It is his usage of personal pronouns that is second to none. In fact, when it comes to how often he uses personal pronouns like, "I", "me", "my", or "mine", his overall average in the epistles that are generally unquestioned as his is almost three times that of his next closest rival in the practice. Many if not most scholars today believe for a number of reasons that Paul did not write the book of Hebrews. One obvious fact is that in the other epistles credited to him Paul doesn't hesitate to identify himself along with his supposed credentials. The author of Hebrews is strangely silent on these matters. To date, the best guess as to who the author of Hebrews is would be Apollos, and it's only a guess. But Paul certainly couldn't be in the running as the author of Hebrews when one also considers the statistics on the personal pronoun usage. The author of Hebrews uses approximately 1.3 personal pronouns per thousand words of text. Paul's average comes in at about 18.2 per thousand! That is a 1300% increase.

To help put this in perspective, in the first half of the first chapter of Romans, (16 verses worth), Paul uses twice as many personal pronouns than the author of Hebrews uses in his entire book. It's easy to see that Paul is at least as concerned about communicating what he believes to be the truth about himself, along with what he considers to be the truth about YHUH.

3. His claim of apostleship stands alone.

Other than the twelve apostles who spent three and a half years with Yahu'sha, no one other than Paul can be identified as having claimed for themselves the title of apostle of Yahu'sha. Barnabas was referred to as an apostle along with Paul by Luke in Acts 14:14, but there is no record of Barnabas claiming for himself the title.

Our view of early church is polarized.

When we take a general survey of the New Testament, we notice that Paul is the single greatest contributor to it. When we read the book of Acts, we can't help but get the impression that the great bulk of what YHUH was doing in the early church was happening through Paul. But this tends to be very misleading because the book of Acts was written from only one man's point of view... Luke's. Luke traveled with Paul on his many missionary journeys and the bulk of the book of Acts is the account of those travels. But what was going on in Paul's life was by no means the only thing YHUH was doing with the believers of that time period, nor was it the main event from YHUH's point of view. What we have in Acts is only one man's point of view, and from Luke's perspective, Paul's story would no doubt have appeared to be front and center stage. This could likely be why Luke chose to follow Paul and record his story in the first place. Being a Gentile himself, and Paul the supposed apostle to the Gentiles, this no doubt seemed to be where the future was for Luke. When we consider Paul taught that there is no difference in YHUH’s eyes between Jew and Gentile, but all believers in Yahu'sha now constitute "the true Israel of YHUH", what Gentile who desired to get close to the YHUH of Israel wouldn’t be absolutely thrilled with Paul? But don't misunderstand my position on the book of Acts. The book of Acts is very important in helping us understand at least a part of what was going on at that time. Without it we wouldn't have much of an idea. What was done and said as recorded by Luke is priceless, and we have no good reason to question what he saw and heard. Luke's own personal commentaries though, few as they are, may be legitimately called into question. But I see no reason to accuse Luke of malicious intent. But we can figure on some Paul-induced ignorance of the truth in Luke. The important thing to remember is that the book of Acts was written from a very singular point of view. It is by no means a record of the only thing YHUH was doing at that time nor should it be assumed from the structure of the book that Paul's journeys were the most important thing YHUH was doing at that time.

No doubt, YHUH was doing other things at that same time. We don't have a detailed record of it, but we do have some clues. Without question, YHUH was working through the original apostles, some things of which are touched on in the beginning of Acts. The apostle John was hard at work for his Lord, but we hear very little from him until we get toward the end of the New Testament. There we find three short epistles and the book of the Revelation of Yahu'sha that John was commanded to write while in exile on the island of Patmos.

Paul's claims of apostleship

Paul was not at all sheepish about calling himself an apostle. In fact, in nine out of thirteen of his books, he introduces himself as an apostle of Yahu'sha, and in every case he states in one way or another that his apostleship stands by divine sovereign decree.

Here is the question. Should we automatically believe the testimony of a person who makes grandiose claims about themselves when all we have for confirmation of their claim is little more than their word and maybe a statement or two from their best friend? If so, then we should likewise confirm those like Jim Jones and David Koresh. Unless there is obvious corroborative evidence to support such claims made today and in the past, all of them should be taken with a very large helping of salt. Unlike Paul, a true prophet or apostle does not have to go to such extraordinary lengths to convince the world they are who they say they are. Even Yahu'sha said that if he alone bore witness of himself, his witness was invalid. John 5:31 And of all the people who shouldn't need to have others testify on their behalf, Yahu'sha was that person. Yet he had Moses, the prophets, the Psalms, John the Baptist, the Fathers voice from heaven declaring to everyone "this is My beloved Son..." and hundreds of those who witnessed his resurrection just to name a few. Paul had none of these. Though in his conceit he considered himself to be YHUH's gift to the Gentiles and tried to claim a prophecy for himself that was given exclusively to Isaiah in Isaiah 49:6.

"For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you to be a light to the Gentiles that you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth." Acts 13:47

Paul, the greatest apostle!

Paul's view of himself as an apostle didn't stop at just claiming to be an apostle. He did what he could to communicate to his followers that he was the biggest and the best. He even had the nerve to challenge the very apostles Yahshua had called and trained for over three years! Among the many self-admiring quotes are these.

"For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles". ...."As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia." 2Cor. 11:5,10 NKJV

Sometimes, almost as though he knew he should be ashamed of such claims, he would tie his claim to a statement of unworthiness. Apparently he thought the gullible would embrace him as the greatest of apostles because he was so humble.

"For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of YHUH. But by the grace of God, I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all...". 1Cor. 15:9,10 NKJV

To the Galatians, Paul makes no pretense about how he compares himself to Peter, James, and John:

"But from those who seemed to be something - whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; YHUH shows personal favoritism to no man- for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, ...and when James, Cephas(Peter), and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship..." Gal. 2:6,7,9 NKJV

A couple verses latter Paul takes a cheap shot at Peter. Without Peter around to defend himself, Paul brags to the Galatians how he put Peter in his place before the entire church of Antioch.

"But when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews played the hypocrite with him so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straight forward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "if you being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?" Galatians 2:11-14 NKJV

Then Paul goes on to describe how hypocritical Peter was being for living a different gospel from the one that he (Paul) preached. It is interesting to note that earlier in the book (Galatians. 1:8,9) Paul commanded his followers to damn, (curse, or doom to destruction), anyone who preaches a different gospel than that which he (not Yahu'sha) had preached. According to him then, that would include damning Peter, if not James and John also! It is obvious to the reader of the first two chapters of Galatians, that Paul is demanding that the Galatian church follow no one but him, not even the original apostles back in Jerusalem.

As a side note it should also be noted that Paul himself was being the real hypocrite when he condemned Peter for accommodating Gentiles when he was around Gentiles and acting like a Jew around Jews because in another place Paul said:

"For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without the law as without law... that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." 1Corintians 9:19-22 NKJV

A little later in the same letter Paul said:

"Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved. Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ." 1Corinthians 10:31-33 NKJV

So here we have Paul claiming to be greater than any other apostle. He insulted Peter, James, and John by saying they only "seemed" to be pillars of the church and they were nothing to him. He bragged about how he told off Peter, and he subtly curses the apostles by telling the Galatians to consider accursed anyone who differs with him. All this, while in fact, he was being the greatest hypocrite of all! If anyone else had even begun to do and say the things that Paul did we would have recognized their incredible conceit and rejected them a long time ago. Solomon said it well;

Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth; A stranger, and not your own lips. Proverbs 27:2

The book of Revelation

Back when I still thought Paul the greatest apostle, it always puzzled me why YHUH didn't give him the book of Revelation or at least some prophetic book similar to it if indeed he was as great as he appeared to be.

There are some interesting facts about the book of Revelation and some things said by Yahu'sha himself that would answer the question as to why Paul was not given the "Revelation". There is a good reason why Yahu'sha did not give such an obviously high endorsement of Paul to the world, but would much rather have himself identified with the beloved apostle John. Actually, there are two reasons for this. First, as mentioned, Paul wasn't even close to being everything he had made himself out to be. And second, Yahu'sha had prophesied that John's testimony would remain till he returned. (More on this in the chapter, Yahu'sha’s prophecy concerning Peter) With an endorsement like this, it only stands to reason that John would be given the testimony of the Revelation to record.

The first thing we notice about the book of the Revelation of Yahu'sha is that it has been given to the beloved apostle John about whom Yahu'sha had said his testimony would remain till he returned. The second thing that we are forced to deal with is that the Revelation was most likely given to John during the Neronian persecution around 65 A.D. This was about the same time we hear the last from Paul who was in prison in Rome writing his second epistle to Timothy.

Many Scholars (but by no means all of them) believe that the Revelation was written later during the Domitian persecution of A.D.81-96. This theory has its origin in the testimony of the historian Irenaeus who wrote around the year 180 A.D. some 100 years or more after the writing of Revelation. He held Paul in the highest esteem and tried to emulate him. He also was instrumental in pulling together the many splintering factions of Christianity at that time. There is no more reason to reach for a later date than A.D. 65 for Revelation than his say so. It is my belief that he knew well the devastating impact on Paul’s credibility that an early date for Revelation would bring. Wanting union and not division, he settled on the later date in an attempt to give Paul some breathing room. This only helps Paul a little. Even in the unlikely event the Revelation was written later, it continues to reflect badly on Paul as you will see. The other early historians who also render the later date, Victorinus (c. 270), Eusebius (c.328), and Jerome (c. 370) were simply following Irenaeus’ lead.

There is evidence that can be deduced from the book of Revelation itself for accepting an earlier date for it's writing. First, in chapter 11 there is a reference made to the temple. It is obviously an earthly temple. That temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. It is hard to imagine that John would have been told to measure the temple of YHUH after it had been leveled.

Also, when one adds up the numerical value of the consonantal letters in the name "N’ron Kahsar", which is the way all Greek speaking people pronounced the name Caesar Nero, the sum totals 666. See appendix. The churches of Asia would no doubt have thought Nero was the beast prophesied of in Revelation even though he was only a type, a sort of preview of things to come in the distant future.

There is also the consideration of the age of John. Being a contemporary of Yahu'sha, it is safe to assume that he would have been close to the same age as Yahu'sha. If John had been as much as 10 years younger than Yahu'sha, he would have been only 20 when Yahu'sha called him to follow him. It would seem doubtful that Yahu'sha would have called someone so young, but for the sake of a conservative estimate, if John was only 20 when he was called by Yahu'sha, he would have been in his late fifties at the youngest in the year 65. If he had been the same age as Yahu'sha, he would have been in his late sixties. By first century standards, a person in age from late 50s to late 60s was considered a significantly old person. If the book of Revelation was written in the year 95, at the youngest, John would have been in his late 80s. This was virtually unheard of in the first century. If he had been the same age as Yahu'sha or older, (not at all out of the question), he would have been in his late 90s to over 100 years old. This is highly improbable. As long as one isn’t trying to salvage Paul’s reputation, the earlier date of 65 A.D for the writing of the Revelation, during the Neronian persecution, fits all the data best.

The one fact that immediately jumps from the pages of Revelation is that in spite of Paul's supposed popularity, not one word is given from Yahu'sha in recognition of him or his work among the Gentiles. Of the seven churches to whom the book is originally addressed, as far as we know, only one of them is a church that had any direct dealings with Paul. That church is the church of Ephesus the first on the list of the seven. John records:

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, "I an the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea." Revelation 1:10,11 NKJV

Yahu'sha goes on to tell John what to say to each church. The general pattern of the things he said to each church went like this. First he would tell them what they were doing right and commend them for it. Next he would point out to them where they going wrong and reprimand them for it. Then he would exhort them to repent and change what they were doing wrong, or they would suffer the consequences. Then he would give them a promise of reward if they did repent and overcome their problems. Then, (and this is important), toward the end of each and every address to a church, he would speak to the whole world and say that what was true and good for this and all seven churches was good for anybody who cared to listen.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit (YHUH) says to the churches". NKJV

The reason that this is important is because there has been some false teaching going around. It holds that along with the obvious fact these letters were written to specific churches in Asia, they were also a parallel prophecy of the churches that would come along in time. The last church then (Laodicea) was supposedly a foreshadowing of the Christian church in general at the end of the age just before Yahshua returned. This has had the effect that we have concerned ourselves with only what was supposedly addressed to us. Today, one can hear all kinds of preaching about the lukewarm church of Laodicea, but one hears very little about what was said to the other six churches. We have been left blinded to six sevenths of the truth available. There is no truth to the parallel theory because the Holy Spirit explicitly repeated seven times that what was good for each and every one of the seven churches was also good for any individual who cared to listen. And much was addressed to those churches by Yahu'sha that flies directly in the face of Pauline doctrine. More on this later.

Now look at what was said to the only church of the seven that we know Paul had any dealings with, Ephesus. Among the things that Yahu'sha commended the Ephesian church for doing right, is this quote:

"I know your works, your labor, and your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars." Rev. 2:2 NKJV

Yes. I believe Yahu'sha here is referring to Paul and his companions Timothy, and possibly Barnabas, and that his claims of apostleship and his doctrine are false! Consider the facts.

1. Paul's ideas on the sovereignty of YHUH and his subsequent doctrine are groundless and severely flawed. (See previous chapter)

2. We have record of Paul claiming to be an apostle to the Ephesians.

"Paul, an apostle of Yahu'sha by the will of YHUH, To the saints who are in Ephesus," Ephesians 1:1 NKJV

3. We have no record of anyone else claiming to be an apostle to anyone anywhere, not even to the Ephesians.

4. Ephesus is the only church of the seven listed in Revelation, that we have record of Paul claiming to be an apostle to.

5. Paul and his doctrine had troubles being accepted in Ephesus.

"And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them..." Acts 19:8,9 NKJV

Remember that this is recorded from Luke’s point of view and that he believed Paul's doctrine was 'the Way'. Notice that those who rejected Paul are men of the synagogue and not atheists or pagans. If these men had stood up in front of the synagogue and said, "Paul's doctrine is flawed. He is a false apostle, and a liar"; Luke would no doubt have seen this as "speaking evil of the Way".

If these five reasons are not enough to seriously call into question Paul's status as an apostle there is one more. It is a most interesting quote from Paul's own pen that finally seals the fate of his supposed apostleship. It comes from his second letter to Timothy, which was also written during the same Neronian persecution in which John was given the Revelation. This letter is believed by many scholars to contain the last recorded words of Paul. Here he makes a short statement of lament that seems to have gone unnoticed. The implications of which are astounding if one is able to hear everything that is being said. Paul says to Timothy:

"This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me." 2Timothy 1:15

Asia! All of them! Rejecting Paul! And when he says, "This you know", it sounds like this must have been relatively common knowledge at that time. Asia! The very place that Yahshua told John to write, where his seven churches were! And they were alive, and obviously had been established for some time. Again, notice that Paul did not say that Asia had rejected Yahshua. Obviously they hadn't rejected Yahshua if there were thriving churches there that Yahshua wanted to address through John. Instead Paul said that all Asia had rejected him personally!

Let me reiterate this picture again and try to grasp the profound significance of it. Here we have in the book of Revelation the words of Yahshua commending the Ephesian church for rejecting someone who claimed to be his apostle. While Paul, the only person anywhere (other than the twelve original apostles) at that time to have gone on record claiming to be an apostle, we know has made this very claim to this same Ephesian church. At the same time, Paul laments himself of the fact that he has been rejected by them! How could it NOT be Paul and his associates that Yahshua had commended the Ephesian church for rejecting? It really couldn't' be more simple. Here, one more time, is the equation in its simplest form.

Paul to the Ephesians: "I am an apostle of Yahshua"

The Ephesians to Paul: "No you're not."

Yahshua to the Ephesians: "Well done!"

This by itself, should be more than enough reason to raise serious question about Paul. Then, when we add to this the rest of the evidence against him and his doctrine, (more to come) we have more than enough reason to do as the Ephesian church and convict Paul of the crime of false impersonation of an apostle!

If Yahshua’s evaluation of Paul was that Paul was a false apostle and a liar, consider the following.


"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches".
************************************************** **************

I have replaced Jesus (Greek for Hail Zeus) with the correct Hebrew name that was given.... Yahu'sha meaning The salvation of Yahuah.

I have also edited some of the instances when the name God is used with YHUH. A simple historical and etymological study will reveal that "God" is a proper name for a Babylonian Deity.

Perhaps Paul was truly an Apostle of the Babylonian deity called "God".

This Article was found at http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm



May the spirit of Truth witness to you.

Ben Yahuah

madthumbs
05-11-2008, 07:46 AM
He most certainly contradicted the laws, wasn't authenticated, and wrote a bunch of nonsense.

dedicate
05-11-2008, 01:35 PM
I wonder or question the messenger more than something about someone that happened 2,000 years ago. What is Scott's agenda?

Why would he use the word YHUH? Does that again cloud the terms already in use such as Jesus, Yashua, YHVH, Jahova, Christ and Son of Man. He's adding fire to an already smoldering subject.. without clarification.

And he does not even define Apostle. Funny that he doesn't tell us what it is to be an Apostle. Maybe this Scott guy has someone in mind?

This author states: He (Paul) did what he could to communicate to his followers that he was the biggest and the best. Then follows up the statement with scripture quote: "For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles". ...."As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia." 2Cor. 11:5,10 NKJV
This is hardly boasting to being better than. But Paul does add that he has labored more abundantly than the others, which may be true.

Seems to me that this might be a smear compain at worst and at best disinformation (but not by the poster).. a means to keep some sort of debate going where there is none while the wrecking crew goes to town. Could be.

Some points to Paul being actually called upon to do the work of spreading the Good News --

He was miraculously converted.
He worked tirelessly and showed people that he could earn on his own by mending tents. How many preachers today have a side job to earn? Not many.
He was constantly persecuted and eventually lost his life to the cause.
Not only is the book of Acts almost entirely devoted to his travels but his letters comprise a large body of the NT.

It seems to me, if someone might want to discount some person named Paul from being an Apostle, and wants to convince others of that, then they would present a reasonable arguement. I don't see that here

dedicate
05-11-2008, 01:49 PM
"There is evidence that can be deduced from the book of Revelation itself for accepting an earlier date for it's writing. First, in chapter 11 there is a reference made to the temple. It is obviously an earthly temple. That temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. It is hard to imagine that John would have been told to measure the temple of YHUH after it had been leveled" -- BULL.

Measuring the temple is a deeply esoteric matter/symbolic and telling. The author here is reducing it to something that only could have happened in the physical realm. This author is way off the mark. No reason to take what he says serously from there on end.

agneau
05-11-2008, 02:09 PM
I wonder or question the messenger more than something about someone that happened 2,000 years ago. What is Scott's agenda?

Seems to me that this might be a smear compain at worst and at best disinformation (but not by the poster).. a means to keep some sort of debate going where there is none while the wrecking crew goes to town. Could be.

What you have postulated is even more speculative and unsubstantiated that the article you have denigrated. Why would this chap want to 'smear' Paul's reputation? Just saying 'Could be' is somewhat puerile. What are the possible other agendas? Why is this simply not a serious piece of literary research?

Some points to Paul being actually called upon to do the work of spreading the Good News --

He was miraculously converted.
He worked tirelessly and showed people that he could earn on his own by mending tents. How many preachers today have a side job to earn? Not many.
He was constantly persecuted and eventually lost his life to the cause.
Not only is the book of Acts almost entirely devoted to his travels but his letters comprise a large body of the NT.

Many, many people ostensibly fulfil these criteria with the exception of the last. And just because an ancient council decided to emphasise his writings in their version of their holy book does not give credence to his assertions; he just got a good PR.

One has to view the Bible as an historical document that has been severely edited and manipulated for 'political' purposes. It is a good source of history, with an awful lot of myth interwoven, and I suspect translated not entirely correctly from the original texts. Everything in it is not ‘gospel’ and has to be read with that in mind, and I think this piece about Paul is valuable because it points that out to us.

The danger comes when reactionary Christians cannot see what the Bible truly is, and instead take it to be 100% accurate.

Any research such as this which instead examines the contradictions in the texts, will hopefully allow us to eventually place everything else in context, and ultimately we will come to discover, I suspect, that it is no more than a dressed-up price of folklore based loosely around the (idealised) lives of distant historical figures, and bastardised for the power of a few and the control of many.

But having said that, there is the archaeological value of the Bible that I would not disdain, and work such as this is helpful towards that.

agneau
05-11-2008, 02:17 PM
Measuring the temple is a deeply esoteric matter/symbolic and telling. The author here is reducing it to something that only could have happened in the physical realm. This author is way off the mark. No reason to take what he says serously from there on end.

Whilst I agree with you that that particular argument is fallacious - it would be wrong to discount all the others out of hand. Poor science otherwise.

dedicate
05-11-2008, 02:28 PM
I can tell by your response that you are a thought-technician. I recommend that you do some good meditation at a Zen monestary to clear the hard drive.

agneau
05-11-2008, 02:49 PM
Sorry, old bean, but I have no idea what any of that meant or implied.

dedicate
05-11-2008, 03:24 PM
No idea? I think you take it as an insult,, me telling you to meditate at a Zendo. Sort of like what Hamlet said to Ophelia.. "Off thee to a nunery." But that is not my intent. I am offering a real solution.

That aside, the original article was a smear campaign. Take a look at the descriptive words the author attributes to Paul's actions and person. They are very negative.
Why would he want to do that? That is the question. Why would the author want to smear Paul? Maybe he has an agenda that does not include Pauline Doctrine (A Hebrew Maybe?)? Maybe he wants to cloud the issue or move our attention somewhere other than the message of the Bible. Maybe he is just another materalist that has nothing better to do than batter religion about on this point or that point. I don't know, but it seems to me that the author is Jewish and has a Jewish agenda.-- the key to this understanding is his spelling of God and Jesus. But I may be wrong.

"What you have postulated is even more speculative and unsubstantiated that the article you have denigrated. -- Many, many people ostensibly fulfil these criteria with the exception of the last. And just because an ancient council decided to emphasise his writings in their version of their holy book does not give credence to his assertions; he's just got good PR" --\

Well I didn't say that was not the case, so I dont know why you are bringing those things, like the historical validity of the Bible, up. The point was, I can show that Paul was an Apostle using the same texts that this guy uses. And, if the Bible is not a valid gauge of these things, the original article is moot anyway.

Also, just because "many many people fulfil this criteria" does not mean the criteria is not valid..Science remember?

End point is that the arguement presented by Scott is not credible. One should be able to seee through the glass here. Objectively the arguements he makes are full of holes, irregardless of how I feeel about the issue. He has not convinced me.

madthumbs
05-11-2008, 04:37 PM
He was miraculously converted.

-By his own account which he's shown to be dishonest about.

He worked tirelessly and showed people that he could earn on his own by mending tents.

Again by his own account.

How many preachers today have a side job to earn?

Every one I've come across that isn't on TV.

He was constantly persecuted and eventually lost his life to the cause.

According to who? What other apostle wrote about him?

Not only is the book of Acts almost entirely devoted to his travels but his letters comprise a large body of the NT.

Which change the laws that Jesus claimed to uphold.

It seems to me, if someone might want to discount some person named Paul from being an Apostle, and wants to convince others of that, then they would present a reasonable arguement. I don't see that here

Put simply, Matthias was elected to take Judas' place. There could only be 12.

dedicate
05-11-2008, 04:56 PM
Madthumbs, if you wanted to say that there can only be 12 Apostles then by definition Paul could not be an Apostle. That would be an arguement that makes sense. (Curious that the original article did not bring up this obvious point?!?) Of course, what if somebody decided that one did not have to be part of the 12 to be an Apostle? Then the definition changes and off we go again. And it would seem to me that the word APOSTLE does not imply or indicate a 12 person group. I.E. There were 12 Apostles and anyone could be an Apostle but not part of the 12?

We should look at the origin of the word Apostle. How it was used and what the meaning of the word might have been. Originally, is it the same word used in the Gospels that Paul used to Describe himself,,, or Luke to describe Paul? Was the word used prior to the Jesus ministry? --

If you think Paul is lying, or it is all lies, then that is up to you. Why he was never talked about elsewhere does not mean he was lying though.

snoopsnuffleopagus
05-11-2008, 05:00 PM
Cordial Felicitations; sparrow7:

I disagree with the Authors evidence and conclusions.

Cordial Felicitations; agneau: The Integrity and Provenance of the NT is more robust than is commonly known. There is now a majority opinion that the NT was scribed in Hebrew and retained Hebraic Thought, Philosophy, Prose and Poetry. These were the Yahdaim that recognized Yahshua as the Messiah.

Information on Origins and Integrity of Texts:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28141

The Book of Revelation presents information about the Past; Present and Future.

A continuous Thread throughout the 66 Books is the Laws, The 613 Laws; Judgements and Statutes. Everything thing is Framed through the Lens of the Laws. The Laws are a Standard of Criteria. The Benchmark, Baseline.

How does the Argument being presented relate to the Law.

The Author 'Glosses' over the 7 Congregations that he mentions, when in fact there are salient differences between each Congregation. Smyrna the first mentioned, is cited as 'Perfect', this informs us they were upholding and teaching the Laws and the Prophecies, observing all Sabbaths correctly, still led by living apostles.

The succesive 5 Congregations, up to Laodicia, the Sixth congregation, reveal a creeping apostasy. A 'Falling Away'; as always in an incremental fashion. The 7th Congregation; Philadelphia, is referred to as 'Perfect', once again in compliance with YHWHs Law, so this could be considered a Future Event


Shaul/Paul is, can we agree?, a very interesting character. He was an ardent persecutor of the Messianic Yahdaim. He killed some of them. He was well educated and urbane. I believe he was a student of Gamiliel?, expert in the Laws of YHWH, but apparently very misguided at that time.

In many ways Shaul was a contrast to the other apostles and disciples. As I mentioned; he was urbane, well educated, had substantial resources. He went way out of his way to harm the Messianic Yahdaim, so his reputation was widely known and there would be a natural distaste for this guy. It really is another 'mind blowing' concept in this amazing Book.

Here is a guy who was proactively persecuting them, and now he's preaching to them, correctly. Could you imagine how the Congregants and others must have perceived this man on the emotional/mental and Spiritual Levels. Love your enemies. Love those who persecute you.


I agree with Dedicate. A Miracle, the Damascus Road Nexus of Time Event.

Yahshua; Himself, appeared to Shaul. asked him what his problem was. Told him to go to the city and he would be told what to do. Shaul was also temporarily blinded.

Meantime YHWH was Programming Chananyah, a disciple, giving him his role in this most important occurrence.

So YHWH and Yahshua BOTH Converted Shaul from Yahdai to Messianic Yahdai,. A Yahdai that recognizes Yahshua as the Messiah, the Unique Son of Yahweh.

So I would say with certainty: Shaul was working under the Authority of Bothe Yahweh and Yahshua.

And I respectfully dis-agree with MT that Shaul did not uphold and teach the Laws of YHWH.

A contentious subject, if necessary, or called upon, I shall service that position.

After all, the whole Book is about the Laws.


Cheers! Snoops


The Temple mentioned is the Third Temple, yet to be built. They omit the southern courtyared and use a different cubit length than they had used on the previous Temples.

A Hypothesis:
http://www.yahweh.com/TemplePage/Temple.html

agneau
05-11-2008, 05:08 PM
Thanks for that referred thread, Snoops. Lot to read there, so it'll take me a while to read through, but looks interesting.... Ta.

dedicate
05-11-2008, 06:29 PM
Wilhelm Reich invented the cloudbuster, the orgone accumulator, and has been (by "conspiracy theroists.") credited with discovering aura photography. Student of Freud, studied Marxism, knew languages and played a piano, and all his scientific discoveries have been documented. He even cured many cancer.

All these discoveries and more have been kept hidden by the "Masters of Reality" also known as the Wa'chi'chu and Hidden Hand. Hidden Hand because it reaches into your pocket and your soul, taking what is good and leaving you feeling empty. Wilhelm Reich called them Moju and HIGs.

He left one major item in his will: to maintain his own personal collection of documents. These documents containe information that Wilhelm Reich felt could not be released safely back then in the 1950's/ so he set a date in the future when people might be ready for what he found. It will not be for a couple more years when the Wilhelm Reich Archives are going to be opened to the public and all documents and discoveries published.

This man should not be underestimated. And most likey this man is not underestimated by the powers that be. Maybe he could see it all coming, like the prophetic Jim Thompson or Philip Dick paired with the genius of N.Tesla. A lot of the things Wilhelm Reich was talking about in his books back then are just now being talked about and realized.

------------- Though he remained without the conversion as spoken about on the road to Damascus, Wilhelm Reich knew persecution and martydom.

Wilhelm Reich, Apostle of Peace.

madthumbs
06-11-2008, 12:24 AM
If you think Paul is lying, or it is all lies, then that is up to you. Why he was never talked about elsewhere does not mean he was lying though.

I think the whole Bible is full of lies.

sparrow7
06-11-2008, 01:24 AM
in my opinion..

I guess it depends on just how far one wants to study to see, if in fact Paul was a false apostle..there is a study on that same website,that shows that his stories do not jive, in one part it says he was blinded, then in another the men with him were blinded on the road to damascus, etc..there is also a book entitled james the brother of jesus by robert eisenman..which goes into the history back then, really well. james is also a disciple we do not find much about in the new testament. Then of course, Paul did not emphasize the strictness of the dietary laws that all of the original disciples did...hence many christians feel fine about eating pork, for example..One thing I know for sure, is to find the truth of anything in this world, in this time period, takes ALOT of digging and a completely open mind to find truth.


http://http://beyondthechurch.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!4FC0A0F52692E8ED!144.entry?_c=BlogPart

02 December
Who was the 12th Apostle?
Chapter 11

Who was the 12th Apostle?

by Scott Nelson

There are only twelve

Many Christian sects teach (in error) that Paul (Shaul) was YHWH 's chosen replacement for Judas Iscariot who betrayed Yahushua and fell from his office as one of the twelve apostles. Some even go so far as to teach that Peter was in error when he called the Messianic believers together to choose a replacement for Judas, simply because Peter's call for a replacement for Judas happened before Pentecost. They assert that Peter was 'in the flesh', out of line, and without the authority to do such a thing. YHWH supposedly rejected their choice and instead zapped Shaul for the job. Naturally, these teachers who are willing to go way out on a limb to say Peter was wrong here never consider the possibility that Peter was wrong about Shaul in the passage we dealt with in the last chapter.

Thanks to the way the term apostle is used by both Paul and Luke, it has been redefined and broadened beyond twelve to include anyone who believes they are a divinely appointed messenger sent out into the world. Whether one believes that the office of apostle extends beyond the original twelve or not, it is apparent from the book of Revelation and Yahushua's own words that there are a specific twelve who are also referred to as "the apostles of the Lamb".

Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev. 21:14

Also, Yahushua said to them;

"Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His Glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matt. 19:28

There were many others besides the twelve who followed Yahushua who were there and heard these words when He spoke them. Shaul was not one of them! If Judas Iscariot's name is not one of the twelve apostles whose names are written on the foundations of the city, and Paul is a false apostle who presumptuously took the title "apostle of Yahushua" to himself... the question remains: who is number twelve?


Peter calls for a replacement for Judas

To answer that question we need to take another look at the meeting recorded in Acts 1 where Peter calls for a replacement for Judas. Again, notice that this event is obviously deemed necessary because of the understanding that there must be twelve apostles, no more, and no less.

And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, "Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Yahshua; for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry." ... "For it is written in the book of Psalms; 'Let his habitation be desolate, and let no one live it'; and, 'Let another take his office.' "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Master, Yahushua, went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." Acts 1;15-17, 20-22

The first thing we need to do is realize that we are viewing real people who think and act like we do and that Peter is very serious about filling the office with a qualified person. In a detailed manner he lays out exactly what the replacement's qualifications must be. The prospective apostle had to have accompanied the other apostles the entire time, from the time that John baptized Yahushua, all the way through to Yahushua's ascension. This was the bare minimum criteria to be met. If a prospect who met these requirements had more knowledge of Yahushua from before His baptism it would no doubt have been considered a bonus. We must keep in mind that Peter was looking for someone who would be a witness. This would require that a prospect also demonstrate a willingness to tell of what he had seen and heard, and the more willing the better. It would not be out of the question for the replacement to be more qualified in this regard than some of the remaining eleven!

The fact that Peter required the would-be apostle to have been there also fits with what Yahushua had said in Matthew as quoted above. He said, "You who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones..." The hard fact of the matter is that Shaul had not been there. He didn't walk with Yahushua those three and a half years and therefore could not be considered a legitimate candidate to replace Judas as an apostle by either Peter's or Yahushua's criterion. The replacement had to have been there.

The scene in Acts continues.

And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias, And they prayed and said, "You , O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:23-26

Out of all those present, they had reduced the number of possible prospects to two. They were the best of the rest. Both were well qualified in the eyes of the eleven. They could have made the choice between the two themselves and I believe their choice would have been recognized in heaven. Yahushua had given Peter and the other apostles that much authority when He said to them;

"Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there in the midst of them." Matthew 18:18-20

But they desired that YHWH make the final choice between the two. The casting of lots to discern YHWH 's will is also not without precedence. They were very familiar with the priest's use of Urim and Thummim to determine YHWH 's will as well as the story of Jonah and the terrified sailors who cast the lot which YHWH caused to indicate Jonah as the source of their problem. On an issue as important as determining who the twelfth apostle should be, their desire to seek YHWH 's opinion would not have gone unnoticed in heaven. They prayed and cast lots and the lot fell on Matthias. In short, the answer to the question of who the twelfth apostle is, is this man Matthias.


Who was Matthias?

Virtually nothing is known about Matthias. Aside from the fact that he must have fit Peter's criterion, (been there) we know only one thing.... his name. But I have a pet theory about this person which if proved true would answer many perplexing questions dogging scholars today. It is only a theory. The fact that it is very plausible and would answer many questions is itself the best evidence.


The Author of the mysterious Q source?!

If I were a betting man, I would lay some highly favorable odds that Matthias is the author of the renowned "Q source" for a number of reasons. "Q" is the label scholars have given to a single written common source from which the synoptic gospel writers supposedly gleaned a large portion of their information. The books of Matthew, Mark and Luke are called the "synoptic" gospels because they are a condensed outline of the events surrounding Yahshua's ministry. They are similar in so many ways it appears clear that each was condensed from the same larger written source. A perfect example of this is the story of the rich young ruler. This story is found in all three synoptic gospels. Each one contains information that the others leave out. We determine from all three that this person was rich. Matthew is the only one to tell us that he was "young". And Luke is the only gospel to tell us he was a "ruler". But no matter from which gospel it is read, it is still know as the "rich young ruler" account. To see a parallel comparison of the three accounts of the rich young ruler and how the original account in "Q" might have looked see The Rich Young Ruler Synoptic Parallel in the appendix.

Let's take a hypothetical look at what it might have been like at the time Peter called for a replacement for Judas. Remember, these are real people who act and think like we do. What if during all the time that Yahshua walked with and taught the twelve, there was among the many others who followed along, a man gifted in writing who faithfully recorded most everything that happened and what was said? I can picture him sitting in the background writing in some form of short hand Aramaic like an ancient reporter of some sort. Now when Peter calls for a replacement for Judas, his requirements are that the replacement had to both be there and be willing to tell (report) what he had seen and heard. Now as they consider the candidates and are about to make some nominations they realize that they have among their candidates a man with a lengthy and accurate written diary/record of all that was said and done. Hey! Isn't this exactly what they are looking for?

I believe that Matthias, the one on whom YHWH caused the lot to fall, was just such a person. This may sound like a realistic but quaint theory to many at this point, but there is one more interesting bit of evidence to add to this picture. The name "Matthias" is the Greek version of the name "Matthew"(Hebrew: Mattityahu)! They are identical... one and the same! There were two Matthews just as there two apostles named Simon and two apostles named James. Matthew the tax collector is generally considered to be the author of the gospel of Matthew. But this is only tradition. We really don't know for sure who wrote the book because the book doesn't say. The name Matthew was associated with the earliest copies of the book and was subsequently given the name over time.

Here is what I think happened. I believe that Mathias was a gifted writer who faithfully documented the words and events surrounding Yahushua's ministry. Unlike Shaul, he was there! When Peter called for a replacement for Judas, Matthias' name came up as a good candidate because he had the written record. YHWH caused the lot to fall on him and he became the true replacement for Judas. His written record was used by many... especially the writers of the synoptic gospels... Marcus (Mark) and Luke. Some anonymous person also used Matthias' record to compose the gospel of Matthew. He translated and condensed it into the parts he deemed important and added a little of his own insight as did the others, but he didn't sign it. He only left it known that his work was taken from the record of Mathias/Matthew. Over time the tradition continued and somewhere along the line it became assumed that it was written by the apostle Matthew the tax collector. It is interesting to note that the synoptic gospels were written from the perspective of being on the outside looking in. Not from the perspective of being one of the core twelve. In the gospel of Matthew itself, Matthew the tax collector isn't even mentioned or called until chapter 9. The writer of the gospel appears to go a little out of his way to distance himself from this Matthew by saying that Yahushua, "saw a man named Matthew...". It would be a bit unusual for someone to refer to themselves this way. But on the other hand, if it were written by a different man with the same name who was on the outside looking in, it would fit perfectly.

Conclusion

Whether Matthias is the author of "Q" or not, he is without question the only plausible 12th apostle because he was there... thus fulfilling the requirements of both Yahushua and Peter. He is, in all probability, also the author of "Q", the source from which the three synoptic gospels writers obtained most of their information. If he is, he is not just an insignificant number filling a vacant spot, but one of the greatest apostles as far as we are concerned when it comes to whose testimony of Yahushua affects us most today. His testimony would be responsible for the bulk of three gospels. All of Shaul's letters put together don't tell us as much about what Yahushua said and did as does any single chapter from these gospels. It should be easy to understand why Shaul quotes Yahushua so very little. He wasn't there!

Notable quote

"Where possible, he (Paul) avoids quoting the teaching of Yahushua, in fact even mentioning it. If we had to rely on Paul, we should not know that Yahushua taught in parables, had delivered the sermon on the mount, and had taught His disciples the 'Our Father.' Even where they are specially relevant, Paul passes over the words of the Lord."
Albert Schweitzer

I have edited out the Babylonian deity name of God throughout this text and replaced it with the correct Name YHWH. I have also inserted the correct name "Yahushua" in place of Yahshua and Jesus.

I have edited out the name Paul, it is the greek substitute for the Hebrew name Shaul.

Ben Yahuah

madthumbs
06-11-2008, 03:06 PM
Here's a page I published before this forum existed:

http://www.opposingdigits.com/falseapostle/

Instead of making a bunch of assertions and adding thoughts, it presents the verses as proof.

dedicate
06-11-2008, 06:50 PM
So, have we determined that Paul might not have been a false Apostle, but just not one of the 12?

I have to disagree with Scott Nelson that Bible supports the existance of only 12 Apostles as a possiblity. Even those scripture he quotes, does not proove anything. -- like saying there can only be 12 Zodiacs.

There are truely only 12 Zodiacs,,, but that is if you don't count all the other stars in the sky not part of the Eccliptic. And, if you travel to some other solar system, they would have a set of Zodiacs differant from ours. So, there are only 12 Jesus Apostles forming an original band of influence for his teachings and one that can not be broken, --- but there are other stars in the sky that Apostle for Jesus. Seems simple to me. No reason to make much ado of Paul in this office, unless you have an agenda.

This Scott Nelson is a sham.

madthumbs
06-11-2008, 07:29 PM
Paul taught against what Jesus taught and stood for. He is an anti-Christ according to the Bible.

dedicate
06-11-2008, 07:40 PM
Hey, madthumbs. Can I go to your forum and post the things I'm saying? If you say I am invited to do so, and will not be offed, then I will.

madthumbs
06-11-2008, 11:23 PM
Hey, madthumbs. Can I go to your forum and post the things I'm saying? If you say I am invited to do so, and will not be offed, then I will.

People being offed isn't always my decision. We have a hidden VIP group, and we have co-admins, publishers, moderators, and affiliates.

Basically one should start out as a reader there first to see if they'd fit in before investing in contributions.

One of our members is Jazzroc of:
http://jazzroc.wordpress.com/

- There may be some conflict there.

dedicate
06-11-2008, 11:42 PM
OK. Fair enough. It's been awhile since I've visited the site. Maybe I'll go back and see if I have any new impressions. Thanks for the info.