Islam convert or be killed? true or false?

[eternal_spirit]

What do you think? How and where does this apply (countries certain Islamic sects/groups etc) or is it anti Islamic propaganda?

[voodoo]

What do you think? How and where does this apply (countries certain Islamic sects/groups etc) or is it anti Islamic propaganda?

All i know is alot of afgani refugees have converted to christianity in norway, so now the goverment wont send them back, because they will be killed if they returned back home.

[eternal_spirit]

The Qur’an says Jihad receives the highest reward and is the surest way to paradise if the "fighter" dies: "Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead … they live … in the presence of their Lord" (Qur’an 3:169). "… To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah … soon shall we {God} give him a reward" (Qur’an 4:74).
According to Muslim doctrine, to deny Allah and Muhammad's exclusive right to be believed in and adored is a terrible crime. Having established the ‘best religion’ that abrogates all others, the Prophet undeniably prescribed that the correct course of action against non-believers is to fight them. Since the biggest crime any person or nation can commit is denial of Islam, it is quite clear the true solution to the problem has been dictated to be perpetual war (Jihad) against such renegades. Based upon Islamic scholars’ writings, it appears undeniable that violent Jihad is permitted in Islam for both offensive and defensive purposes. It was commanded by, and praised by Muhammad as being one of the greatest forms of true Islamic spirituality. Further, some of the final direction from Muhammad was that that Jihad is to continue until all people are subjected to Islamic rule. Offensive aggression toward non-Muslims is clearly and unashamedly allowed, but prior to attacking, the Muslims are to offer them a choice: 1- Become Muslim; 2- do not become Muslim but pay the extortion (Jizya) tax; 3- defend yourself unto death.
Jihad embodies both an ideology and a jurisdiction, formally conceived by Muslim legal experts and theologians from the 8th to 9th centuries onward, based on their interpretation of Qur’anic verses and long chapters in the Traditions (the hadith). The consensus on the nature of jihad from all four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, and Shafi’i) is clear:
Ibn Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani (Maliki),
Jihad is a precept of Divine institution. Its performance by certain individuals may dispense others from it. We Malikis (one of the four schools of Muslim jurisprudence) maintain that it is preferable not to begin hostilities with the enemy before having invited the latter to embrace the religion of Allah except where the enemy attacks first. They have the alternative of either converting to Islam or paying the poll tax (jizya), short of which war will be declared against them. [14]




http://www.islamundressed.com/

[eternal_spirit]

Muslim group behind ‘mega-mosque’ seeks to convert all Britain


A Muslim group that wants to open a giant £100 million mosque in London has set its sights on “winning the whole of Britain to Islam”.
Tablighi Jamaat aims to build an Islamic complex near to the site of the 2012 Olympic stadium, with a mosque for 12,000 people, by far the largest religious building in Britain.
The organisation, which has millions of followers worldwide, insists that it is a peaceful, apolitical revivalist movement that promotes Islamic consciousness among individual Muslims. However, intelligence agencies have cautioned that the group’s ability to fire young men with a zeal for Islam acts as a staging post, for some, along a path that leads to jihadist terrorism.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2419524.ece

[eternal_spirit]

Britain For Sale! (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ehcVTeO6QTc)

Gordon Brown is going cap in hand to Saudi Arabia to beg for money for his New Global Order Banking Institution the IMF and ( most treasonous) to ask for Saudis to purchase British firms and businesses that are going bust do to his recession and his boom & bust economy ( designed possibly to hurry on his New World Order agenda.)

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41279

[eternal_spirit]

Brown calls for Saudis to give more cash to IMFThe fight against climate change will get an unexpected boost today from oil-rich Gulf states which will pledge to invest some of their petrodollar profits in British green energy projects.
The surging oil price over the past year has left parts of the Middle East awash with cash as the rest of the world is squeezed by the credit crunch, making Arab royals some of the few active investors worldwide. The Gulf states have enjoyed a $1.4 trillion windfall from higher oil prices since 2003.
Ed Miliband, the Climate Change Secretary, arrived in Saudi Arabia yesterday with Gordon Brown at the start of a tour of the region. He said some of that cash would now ‘help our firms reap the rewards from going low carbon and providing green energy to thousands of families’ under a so-called ‘green Gulf deal’ to be announced today.
Brown, who is accompanied by a high-level trade delegation seeking Gulf investment, including the CEOs of BP and Shell, was due to hold talks yesterday with the Saudi government on plans to boost the International Monetary Fund’s capacity to help distressed economies during the current crisis. Britain wants the Gulf states to release more funds to the IMF, with Saudi Arabia likely to play a key role in talks later this month in Washington.
As the government attempted to deal with the financial crisis in the UK, it emerged yesterday that Jim Murphy, the Scottish Secretary, has discussed a rival bid for the troubled HBOS bank, which could provide an alternative to the planned merger with Lloyds TSB. Ministers have been challenged over whether the new ‘superbank’ is still the right option following the bail-out of British banks.
Murphy, who has met Jim Spowart, founder of Intelligent Finance, which is part of HBOS, said yesterday that if there was ‘a second serious bid then [the Treasury] would be happy to talk to them.’ Spowart, who has previously accused ministers of trying to railroad the merger through, said he had been told by merchant bankers that an unnamed financial services organisation was interested and thought he should ‘alert the government’ to the possibility.
Hat tip Gates of Vienna..
let me guess who the unknown wankers..i mean bankers will be..some Arab backed sovereign wealth fund…
We Bail out the Banks-yet the banks take homes from families that can’t afford their credit card bill—Tax payers whose pockets are being emptied by the NWO PUPPETS.
While we freeze they still pretend we’ve global warming-Dickheads!
http://centurean2.wordpress.com/2008/11/04/going-green-means-selling-britain-off-to-arabs-britain-always-was-green-before-this-poxy-government-decided-to-build-build-and-build/

[eternal_spirit]

The Qur’an says Jihad receives the highest reward and is the surest way to paradise if the "fighter" dies: "Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead … they live … in the presence of their Lord" (Qur’an 3:169). "… To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah … soon shall we {God} give him a reward" (Qur’an 4:74).
According to Muslim doctrine, to deny Allah and Muhammad's exclusive right to be believed in and adored is a terrible crime. Having established the ‘best religion’ that abrogates all others, the Prophet undeniably prescribed that the correct course of action against non-believers is to fight them. Since the biggest crime any person or nation can commit is denial of Islam, it is quite clear the true solution to the problem has been dictated to be perpetual war (Jihad) against such renegades. Based upon Islamic scholars’ writings, it appears undeniable that violent Jihad is permitted in Islam for both offensive and defensive purposes. It was commanded by, and praised by Muhammad as being one of the greatest forms of true Islamic spirituality. Further, some of the final direction from Muhammad was that that Jihad is to continue until all people are subjected to Islamic rule. Offensive aggression toward non-Muslims is clearly and unashamedly allowed, but prior to attacking, the Muslims are to offer them a choice: 1- Become Muslim; 2- do not become Muslim but pay the extortion (Jizya) tax; 3- defend yourself unto death.
Jihad embodies both an ideology and a jurisdiction, formally conceived by Muslim legal experts and theologians from the 8th to 9th centuries onward, based on their interpretation of Qur’anic verses and long chapters in the Traditions (the hadith). The consensus on the nature of jihad from all four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, and Shafi’i) is clear:
Ibn Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani (Maliki),
Jihad is a precept of Divine institution. Its performance by certain individuals may dispense others from it. We Malikis (one of the four schools of Muslim jurisprudence) maintain that it is preferable not to begin hostilities with the enemy before having invited the latter to embrace the religion of Allah except where the enemy attacks first. They have the alternative of either converting to Islam or paying the poll tax (jizya), (seems the only get out clause is to pay money to save your lives?) short of which war will be declared against them. [14]




http://www.islamundressed.com/

I've had one MASSIVE wake up call

the rest of you non Islamic people
remember these words straight from the Koran and the so called religion of peace known as Islam. :(

[marpat]

What do you think? How and where does this apply (countries certain Islamic sects/groups etc) or is it anti Islamic propaganda?


Many religions have done this sort of thing at one time or another.

I have a copy of the Koran and Im sure that it state that muslims should not attack people unless they are actually hostile. It states that if people wish to keep peace with Islam then they should be left alone.

The Koran also mentions the 'people of the book' which to my mind includes muslims jews and christians, three religions having the same root.

[picha]

I've had one MASSIVE wake up call

the rest of you non Islamic people
remember these words straight from the Koran and the so called religion of peace known as Islam. :(
Well done!

Im very pleased to see someone else here who has understood islam for what it really is.

The koran is one of the most vile and sickening books I have ever read (dont even get me started on the hadith).

When I go into town I cant go 5 minutes without seeing a moslem woman walking round with a hijab on, I hardly used to see any a few years ago. Unfortunately, I know enough about islam that these overt islamic symbols that im all to often confronted with cause me a great deal of offence. I think the main reason they wear them is to show the kuffar how strong they are in number and to intimidate them.

[picha]

Many religions have done this sort of thing at one time or another.

I have a copy of the Koran and Im sure that it state that muslims should not attack people unless they are actually hostile. It states that if people wish to keep peace with Islam then they should be left alone.

The Koran also mentions the 'people of the book' which to my mind includes muslims jews and christians, three religions having the same root.

People of the book also includes zoroastrians. The so called people of the book are the only ones who have the option of keeping their religion through paying the jizya tax. However if your religion isnt included in that then the only options you have are convert or die.

[eternal_spirit]

The more I look into it the worse it gets. Done a search on Shariah Laws and started a thread

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=600904#post600904


and found this article
http://web.archive.org/web/200502051...riage.html#age (http://web.archive.org/web/20050205151045/www.uh.edu/campus/msa/articles/fatawawom/marriage.html#age)

says that it's
okay for an old man to marry a 9 year old girl - The Prophet Mohhamed when he was 53 was said to have married Aisha when she was 9 years old.:(

I read something recently whilst reading a general article about what England 1700 - 1900's was like - that in England up until 1929 that the age for common law marriage for a girl was 12 and for a boy 14 (at least they'd reached puberty by then) but Shariah law is still in practice Today (so it would seem) EDIT in one of the links on the other thread (Shariah Law thread) it says that Islamic (Sharia Law) is the law Muslims follow not the law of the country they are in - example England!

[eternal_spirit]

Many religions have done this sort of thing at one time or another.

I have a copy of the Koran and Im sure that it state that muslims should not attack people unless they are actually hostile. It states that if people wish to keep peace with Islam then they should be left alone.

The Koran also mentions the 'people of the book' which to my mind includes muslims jews and christians, three religions having the same root.

True, but did you read all of post seven, it says it's an accurate text from Koran. There's many Hindus and Christians just in India alone who have been killed, and so many converts to Islam, isn't that how Pakistan became a Islamic state/country.

I'll tell you all a story.

I have Indian genes in my family.
They were born Christians in India at the time Muslims where murdering Christians (not sure if it was convert to Islam or be killed) Or they just didn't like Christians. I'll have to find out.

Anyway the family had to flee India to escape the murderous psychopathic Muslim fanatics. One of EDIT the Indians in my family ended up fighting against Germany on the side of the English during the war and then when back in India they got persecuted by Muslims as explained above.

BTW my Great Grandfather was German and don't even get me started about my Irish ancestors who where also persecuted by the English!

[zarah]

The more time you spend on here the more time you seem to spend trying to denigrate mainstream religion. Yes, organised religion subjugates and was probably conceived for this purpose, but what's the point of copy pasting copious amounts of text propagating the whole divide and conquer malarky we're meant to avoid. You must be drained.

[eternal_spirit]

The more time you spend on here the more time you seem to spend trying to denigrate mainstream religion. Yes, organised religion subjugates and was probably conceived for this purpose, but what's the point of copy pasting copious amounts of text propagating the whole divide and conquer malarky we're meant to avoid. You must be drained.

Islam is bad news. You want me to go easy on you or tell it like it is? Or will you find out for yourself, we've had many convos before.

[zarah]

The Qur’an says Jihad receives the highest reward and is the surest way to paradise if the "fighter" dies:

Wrong. Jihad means 'struggle'.
"Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead … they live … in the presence of their Lord" (Qur’an 3:169).


Wrong. 168 states: (They are) the ones who said about their killed brethen while they themselves sat at home. "If only they had listened to us they would not have been killed", say, "Avert deaths from your own selves, if you speak the truth" "…169 then continues: Think not those as dead who are killed in the way of Allah. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they have provison."

To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah … soon shall we {God} give him a reward" (Qur’an 4:74).

This discusses the concept of defending Islam and fighting to the point of death, if necessary. Kinda like the crusades, or imperialism, no?

According to Muslim doctrine, to deny Allah and Muhammad's exclusive right to be believed in and adored is a terrible crime. Having established the ‘best religion’ that abrogates all others, the Prophet undeniably prescribed that the correct course of action against non-believers is to fight them.

Fact or opinion? As Islam is a monothestic religion it would be imbeclic of it to propagate the concept of numerous gods. It also clearly states that Islam is Christianity and Judaism perfected. It also has to be pointed out, for the millionth time, that any critque of Muhammed must be done in historical context, otherwise any argument becomes fallacious.
Since the biggest crime any person or nation can commit is denial of Islam, it is quite clear the true solution to the problem has been dictated to be perpetual war (Jihad)

Jihad means 'struggle' as I've pointed out before. Not fighting to the death or everlasting conflict or any other negative label you wish to attach to it.

against such renegades. Based upon Islamic scholars’ writings, it appears undeniable that violent Jihad is permitted in Islam for both offensive and defensive purposes.

Again, historical subjectivity has to be used otherwise your post just looks like a confused rant.


It was commanded by, and praised by Muhammad as being one of the greatest forms of true Islamic spirituality. Further, some of the final direction from Muhammad was that that Jihad is to continue until all people are subjected to Islamic rule. Offensive aggression toward non-Muslims is clearly and unashamedly allowed, but prior to attacking, the Muslims are to offer them a choice: 1- Become Muslim; 2- do not become Muslim but pay the extortion (Jizya) tax; 3- defend yourself unto death.

Jesus weep, where on earth do you dig up your info?

Muhammed didn't give any final direction of the sort. Offensive action towards women and children wasn't permitted and again, please, offer some bloody historical context. Would viking invasions be a pleasing contrast to contempory morals?
Jihad embodies both an ideology and a jurisdiction, formally conceived by Muslim legal experts and theologians from the 8th to 9th centuries onward, based on their interpretation of Qur’anic verses and long chapters in the Traditions (the hadith). The consensus on the nature of jihad from all four schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (Maliki, Hanbali, Hanafi, and Shafi’i) is clear:
Ibn Abi Zayd al-Qayrawani (Maliki),
Jihad is a precept of Divine institution. Its performance by certain individuals may dispense others from it. We Malikis (one of the four schools of Muslim jurisprudence) maintain that it is preferable not to begin hostilities with the enemy before having invited the latter to embrace the religion of Allah except where the enemy attacks first. They have the alternative of either converting to Islam or paying the poll tax (jizya), short of which war will be declared against them. [14]

http://www.islamundressed.com/

The concept of Jizya is a medieval one and wasn't imposed on the sick, the poor or women and children. It was also used, once collected, to aid society and the less well off. As Jizya can only be employed in an Islamic country the only state which qualifies would be Saudi, which means that no-one in this forum has to worry.

The concept is a simple one: You want to spread your faith, you have percieved enemies who want to steal what's yours. You fight them, win and then ask them to convert to your faith, which they probably won't do, or force them to pay a tax which helps your poor. Think, IRS or HMRC.

[zarah]

Islam is bad news. You want me to go easy on you or tell it like it is? Or will you find out for yourself, we've had many convos before.

All organised religion is 'bad news' because it attempts to subjugate a person into conforming to a set of interpretated rules. In my opinion, you're not being balanced and so it appears as if you're also attempting to subjugate a person into conforming to a set of interpretated rules - it's just your agenda's different.

[marpat]

True, but did you read all of post seven, it says it's an accurate text from Koran. There's many Hindus and Christians just in India alone who have been killed, and so many converts to Islam, isn't that how Pakistan became a Islamic state/country.

I'll tell you all a story.

I have Indian genes in my family.
They were born Christians in India at the time Muslims where murdering Christians (not sure if it was convert to Islam or be killed) Or they just didn't like Christians. I'll have to find out.

Anyway the family had to flee India to escape the murderous psychopathic Muslim fanatics. One of EDIT the Indians in my family ended up fighting against Germany on the side of the English during the war and then when back in India they got persecuted by Muslims as explained above.

BTW my Great Grandfather was German and don't even get me started about my Irish ancestors who where also persecuted by the English!

But in India the Hindus also fight with the Muslims.

My surname is Germanic I think. It is only one letter different from a title of German nobility. So what about irish ancestry. I have scottish and Irish but I do not fight their causes for stuff that happened hundreds of years ago.

I think if you follow history that christianity also persecuted millions and forced them to convert. It does seem to me that the most oppressive religions seem to come from the same root.

[eternal_spirit]

But in India the Hindus also fight with the Muslims.

My surname is Germanic I think. It is only one letter different from a title of German nobility. So what about irish ancestry. I have scottish and Irish but I do not fight their causes for stuff that happened hundreds of years ago.

I think if you follow history that christianity also persecuted millions and forced them to convert. It does seem to me that the most oppressive religions seem to come from the same root.


Yes, but I've not seen any Jihad like texts by Hindus. We could be related bless :D It was just an example of Islamic fundamentalism and other religious persecution, which is a good reason my family reject religions.

I think all the mainstream religions of Today have roots in previous ancient religions, funny that the oldest known records are from India.

[marpat]

Yes, but I've not seen any Jihad like texts by Hindus. We could be related bless :D It was just an example of Islamic fundamentalism and other religious persecution, which is a good reason my family reject religions.

I think all the mainstream religions of Today have roots in previous ancient religions, funny that the oldest known records are from India.

Well there is a lot of speculation that western religions may have migrated from places like India, and also vice versa.

I think a lot of it shows the stupidity of people more than anything else. I dont think religion is bad in itself but how it is applied to some people and manipulated is bad. There are people who are truly blind to their own faith and will do whatever they are told without ever asking questions.

Read the old testament and you will find texts where the Jews are given power to kill populations who have been condemned.

Also, who is to say that the violent parts of the Koran were not added later. To my mind there were a lot of Korans at one time and then somebody decided on what one would be the official one and what would be written in it. The same thing happened with the bible.

[mynameis]

Iran: Alleged Christian converts deny apostasy, released

Source: Amnesty International

Mahmoud Matin and Arash Basirat have been acquitted of the charge of apostasy by Branch 5 of the Fars Criminal Court in Shiraz, south west Iran, on 25 Sep 2008. They have since been released.

The Court ruled that they were not presented with any reason and evidence to confirm the offence of apostasy was committed by Mahmoud Matin and Arash Basirat. Both had denied that they had converted to Christianity, and said that they remain Muslim and accordingly the court found no further evidence to the contrary.

Mahmoud Matin and Arash Basirat were arrested on 15 May 2008 by Ministry of Intelligence officials in Shiraz, southwest Iran, where they were having a meeting with 13 other people, who were also interrogated but released. They were held in a detention centre in Shiraz which is controlled by the Ministry of Intelligence. They were in solitary confinement for two months before being placed in a cell together around 15 July. Their lawyer was initially informed of their charge of apostasy in early August, which if they had been convicted could have carried the death sentence.

http://www.payvand.com/news/08/oct/1218.html

With a hard line president and diet of experts and electorates this could change. I think that the moderate voices might not be dwindling.


Hanged for being a Christian in Iran

Eighteen years ago, Rashin Soodmand's father was hanged in Iran for converting to Christianity. Now her brother is in a Mashad jail, and expects to be executed under new religious laws brought in this summer. Alasdair Palmer reports.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/3179465/Hanged-for-being-a-Christian-in-Iran.html

[zarah]

I think a lot of it shows the stupidity of people more than anything else. I dont think religion is bad in itself but how it is applied to some people and manipulated is bad. There are people who are truly blind to their own faith and will do whatever they are told without ever asking questions.

Read the old testament and you will find texts where the Jews are given power to kill populations who have been condemned.

Also, who is to say that the violent parts of the Koran were not added later. To my mind there were a lot of Korans at one time and then somebody decided on what one would be the official one and what would be written in it. The same thing happened with the bible.

That's exactly the point. Personal interpretation is key in any organised religion, which is why all, in my opinion, have been infiltrated by those with agendas to subjugate the masses.

[saaduh64]

man you guys sure are here to misunderstand islam, lets see
you are a nation growing up, then you see you have strong neighbours, what will you do you will surely try to be on the safe side and secure your borders.
now lemme tell you what muslims did for the solution.
they sent an ambassador to those nations, he gives them THREE choices, 1.convert to islam, 2.pay jizya or 3.prepare for war.
1. conversion to islam is a very non-selfish request, for you know when two guys debate about a religion, either can be right they actually debate so that the wronging one sees his mistake and corrects himself, islam hasnt spread through intimidation, it is a very logical religion, and if i, on islam am on the right path then i would want the whole world to recieve islam and not go to the pit we all know as hell.
2. now suppose somebody, after listening to all the logics dont want to become a muslim, muslims ask him to remain the waay he was but pay jizya, for then muslims then accept him as a resident in their nation and use that jizya to pay all the expenses for his protection. history is proof, muslims have never mistreated nonmuslim jizyapayers among themselves, unlike many present countries treating minority taxpayers.
3. and lastly if someone says , hell with all this i dont need your protection and i wont pay ya nothin, do please go see what governments lawfully do to non-tax-payers. these people are considered hostile and war against them is necessary for a nation's survival.
and as for killing the people converted FROM islam,
as i told you islam is a very logical reigion therefore it is very hard logically to convert from it and desecrate all its values, but once that happens, the guy is supposed to be hostile to islam and thus his death must be necessary, tell me what you do to people you call terrorists???

[major seven]

Saad says
1. conversion to islam is a very non-selfish request, for you know when two guys debate about a religion, either can be right they actually debate so that the wronging one sees his mistake and corrects himself, islam hasnt spread through intimidation, it is a very logical religion, and if i, on islam am on the right path then i would want the whole world to recieve islam and not go to the pit we all know as hell.


Frank
LOL!


Saad says
2. now suppose somebody, after listening to all the logics dont want to become a muslim, muslims ask him to remain the waay he was but pay jizya, for then muslims then accept him as a resident in their nation and use that jizya to pay all the expenses for his protection. history is proof, muslims have never mistreated nonmuslim jizyapayers among themselves, unlike many present countries treating minority taxpayers.


Frank
LOL!
Apparently this Idiot hasn't read the Bearded Cave Twit"s Fatwa to Americans and their allies.


Saad says
3. and lastly if someone says , hell with all this i dont need your protection and i wont pay ya nothin, do please go see what governments lawfully do to non-tax-payers. these people are considered hostile and war against them is necessary for a nation's survival.


Frank
Lets see!
USA
Late fees, confiscate property to pay taxes, extreme cases maybe some jail time.
Islam
Kill, Crucify or cut off their hands and their feet on opposite sides or exiled and spirituallysent to Hell. (See Qur'an 5;32)

Saad says
and as for killing the people converted FROM islam,
as i told you islam is a very logical reigion therefore it is very hard logically to convert from it and desecrate all its values, but once that happens, the guy is supposed to be hostile to islam and thus his death must be necessary, tell me what you do to people you call terrorists???[/QUOTE]


Frank
Well, lately we send them to Guantanamo, or some other undisclosed location,
water board their dumb asses and eventually stick a needle in their arm and say Bye Bye you Stupid Fuck.

[eternal_spirit]

When Umar ibn al-Khattab (580-644), the second Caliph, came to kiss the Stone, he said in front of all assembled: "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] kissing you, I would not have kissed you."[11] Many Muslims follow Umar: they pay their respects to the Black Stone in a spirit of trust in Muhammad, not with any belief in the Black Stone itself. This, however does not indicate their disrespect to the stone, but their belief that harm and benefit are in the hands of God, and nothing else.

From Wikipedia.

Quote:
Is the Kabba with it's 366 stones,
a pagan temple,
The Kaaba is the holiest place in Islam.[1] The qibla, the direction Muslims face during prayer, is the direction from their location on Earth towards the Kaaba. It is around the Kaaba that ritual circumambulation is performed by Muslims during the Hajj (pilgrimage) season as well as during the Umrah (lesser pilgrimage).[1]

According to the Qur'an, the Kaaba was built by Ibrahim (Abraham) and his son Ismail (Ishmael [1]). Islamic traditions assert that the Kaaba "reflects" a house in heaven called al-Baytu l-Maˤmur[13] (Arabic: البيت المعمور) and that it was first built by the first man, Adam. Ibrahim and Ismail rebuilt the Kaaba on the old foundations. [14]

When Muhammad conquered Mecca, he destroyed the 360 idols around Kaaba which the Meccan pagans possessed. [15][16] There was one god for each day of the year. [15] While destroying each idol, Muhammad recited [Qur'an 17:81] which says "Truth has arrived and falsehood has perished for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish.'" [15][16]

Muhammad then entered the Ka`abah and ordered all the pictures to be destroyed. [16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

[synergy777]

That's exactly the point. Personal interpretation is key in any organised religion, which is why all, in my opinion, have been infiltrated by those with agendas to subjugate the masses.

classical islam as i like to term it is very different to the extreme/jihad versions. we have to remember that empires use religion as a means to justify their political/economic desires, and thus corrupt religion.

i am a sikh, my religion grew as a direct response to islamic mughal empire/forced conversion in india. many sikhs died as they would not convert to islam.

so i could view all muslims as evil, but i don't. i have muslim firends who are great people, they are my brothers. they are my brothers like hindus, buddhists, christians, jews are, the same creator created all of us.

there are many good muslims who do good, but they don't get exposure, as it goes against the media/elite agenda of divide and rule.

islam bans usury, eg charging interest. thus the elite and their banking monoploy hate islam.

the fact is that the is only one god/creator, the god of hindus, sikhs, buddhists, christians, jews and muslims is the same god.

the god of the elite is lucifer/satan.

so by by corrupting religion, and creating conflict, they get all the people to fight eachother, while they gain power/control.

divide and rule.

[picha]

classical islam as i like to term it is very different to the extreme/jihad versions. we have to remember that empires use religion as a means to justify their political/economic desires, and thus corrupt religion.

i am a sikh, my religion grew as a direct response to islamic mughal empire/forced conversion in india. many sikhs died as they would not convert to islam.

so i could view all muslims as evil, but i don't. i have muslim firends who are great people, they are my brothers. they are my brothers like hindus, buddhists, christians, jews are, the same creator created all of us.

there are many good muslims who do good, but they don't get exposure, as it goes against the media/elite agenda of divide and rule.

islam bans usury, eg charging interest. thus the elite and their banking monoploy hate islam.

the fact is that the is only one god/creator, the god of hindus, sikhs, buddhists, christians, jews and muslims is the same god.

the god of the elite is lucifer/satan.

so by by corrupting religion, and creating conflict, they get all the people to fight eachother, while they gain power/control.

divide and rule.

Hi Synergy, im just wondering if you know why moslems kiled sikhs who wouldnt convert? Its because they were following the example set by mohammed. Thats why I just cant accept the argument that islam is essentially peaceful and its just extremeists who have twisted the teachings.

[rr_x]

Zarah is absolutely right that 'Jihad' means struggle.



So does 'Mein Kampf'.

[eternal_spirit]

The Wars to spread Islam
On pages 66 and 67 Dr. Abu Zayd confesses clearly, "The thing which compelled Abu Bakr to invade Persia and the Byzantine Empire was not to seize their abundance, but rather to spread Islam". This claim is based on evidence that the generals of the Islamic armies used to call the countries to embrace Islam before they started fighting them. Khalid Ibn al-Walid sent a message to the princes of Persia saying: "After all, accept Islam and you will be safe, or pay the tribute; otherwise I will come to you with a people who desire death as you desire drinking wine."
Yes and no, Dr. Abu Zayd! Yes, we accept your confession that the war was to spread Islam. We agree that spreading Islam was an essential incentive for war. We are content with your unequivocal confession in regard to this matter. We have written these pages in order to denote these facts and nothing more—to prove that Islam was spread by sword and that the Islamic wars were offensive wars. Your confirmation and faithful narration of history in "The Rightly Guided Caliphs" have helped us to prove this fact. Thank you.
Yet, we disagree with you when you claim that material abundance was not another reason for these wars. We will not allow you to conceal this obvious fact because you yourself have unintentionally alluded to it when you listed the reasons for the invasion of Egypt—among them were "the abundance of Egypt and its yields". More than that, ponder what the Qur’an says: "Allah (God) promises you much booty that you will capture" [Qur’an 48:20].
Or let us listen to Muhammad’s explicit statement in which he (after exhorting his warriors to fight bravely) promised the plunder of the country. Did you forget, Dr. Abu Zayd, what Muhammad said? Let me remind you. Muhammad said, "You see, God will soon make you inherit their land, their treasures and make you sleep with their women" (Lit: make their women’s beds for you).
These plain, disgraceful words are recorded by Ibn Hisham on page 182 Vol. II, of his famous book, "Al Rod Al Anf", which all the researchers regard as a reliable reference. Thus, when Muslims invaded a certain land incited by the desire to possess the land, treasures, and women, they were actually fulfilling God’s promise as it was stated in the Qur’an and in Muhammad’s pledge.

"The Beginning and the End," by Ibn Kathir (vol. 7)
We would like to quote a few incidents from this book by Ibn Kathir who is one of the ancient Muslim scholars and chroniclers and a reliable source for all students of Islamic history. On page 2, we read the following, "At the inception of the year 13 of the Hajira, Abu Bakr was determined to draft soldiers to send them to Syria in compliance with the words of the Qur’an: Fight... those who were given the Scripture (Chapter 9:9); and also follow the example of the apostle of God who gathered the Muslims together to invade Syria before his death."
He also adds on page 9: "When Abu Bakr sent Khalid to Iraq, Abu Hurayra, who was one of Muhammad’s companions, he used to exhort Muslims to fight by telling them: ‘Hasten to the Houris’ (fair, black-eyed women)."
Those Houris are the nymphs of paradise who are particularly designated for the enjoyment of Muslims.
"‘The Blood of the Byzantine is more delicious’, Khalid said!"
On page 10, Ibn Khathir tells us that when the Byzantine leaders rejected Islam or paying tribute, Khalid told them, "We are people who drink blood. We were told that there is no blood that is more delicious than the blood of the Byzantines."
Such words well suit people like Khalid, Muhammad’s beloved friend and relative.
On page 13 we read the following, "Gregorius, one of the great princes of the Byzantines, said to Khalid: ‘What do you call us for?’ Khalid answered him: ‘That you testify that there is no God but the only God and that Muhammad is His messenger and apostle, and to acknowledge all that Muhammad received from God (namely pilgrimage, fasting of Ramadan, etc.).’ Gregorius said to him: ‘And if these are not accepted?’ Khalid responded, ‘Then pay the tribute.’ Gregorius said to him: ‘If we do not give the tribute?’ Khalid said: ‘Then war!"’
Ibn Kathir acknowledges (on page 21) that when the Muslims conquered Damascus, they seized St. John’s church and converted it into the largest mosque in Damascus today (The Umayyad Mosque). On page 55, we read also about the invasion of Jerusalem. On page 123, he states, "Umar Ibn al-Khattab wrote to Abdil-Rahman Ibn Rabi’a ordering him to invade the Turks (Turkey today)."

The Second Invasion of Africa
In page 165 Ibn Kathir records for us that: "The second invasion of Africa was accomplished because its people broke their pledge. That was in year 33 of the Hajira (The Moslem Calendar)."
Of course, the people of Africa broke the pledge because that pledge was imposed on them by force in lieu of death. Yet Muslims killed thousands of them. Ibn Kathir already mentioned in page 151 that, "’Uthman Ibn ’Affan ordered ’Abdalla Ibn Sa’d to invade Africa. [He told him] ‘If you conquer it take 1/25 of its booty.’ ’Abdalla Ibn Sa’d marched towards it at the head of an army of 20,000 soldiers. He conquered it and killed multitudes of people from among its inhabitants until the remnant were converted to Islam and became subject to the Arabs. ’Abdalla took his portion of the booty as ’Uthman told him, then he divided the rest."
How unfortunate were the African people! They were invaded by the Arabs who killed thousands of them, divided the booty, and forced the remnant to embrace Islam. When they broke the pact, the Muslims attacked them again. But are the black African people the only unfortunate people? Or are all the people of Jordan, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Libya, all the Arab tribes, Spain, even the people of China and India, Cyprus and the Kurds, all the unfortunate peoples? All of these are unfortunate nations who became the victims of Islamic Law which detests human rights and persistently ignores their freedom.


The Invasion of Cyprus and the Kurds
Ibn Kathir tells us that in the year 28 of the Hajira, the conquest of Cyprus was accomplished after ’Abdulla Ibn al-Zubayr slaughtered a multitude of people—as usual. Ibn Khaldun also tells the story of the Kurds. In page 124 of Vol. II, he says, "Muslims met a number of Kurds. They called them to embrace Islam or pay the tribute. When they refused to do so they killed them and captured their women and children, then divided the booty."
As we see, Ibn Khaldun along with Ibn Kathir, al-Tabari and other chroniclers, ancient and contemporary such as Dr. Abu Zayd, recorded all the Islamic historical events in detail. Moreover, on every occasion Arab newspapers allude boastfully to these memorial episodes of Islamic history and shed light on these savage, wild offensive wars. For instance, we read in the prestigious Ahram newspaper which is published in Egypt, the following, "During the era of the Caliph ’Umar Ibn ’Abdul-’Aziz, Ibn Qutayba in the year 88H, he invaded some of the neighboring countries of Iran such as Bukhara, and Samarq and marched close to the Chinese border" (refer to the Ahram, Mary 26, 1986, p. 13).
In his book, "The Beginning and the End" (part 9), Ibn Kathir narrates in detail the history of this belligerent general, Ibn Qutayba. He records the story of his campaigns and refers to his biography.
We would like to conclude this chapter with a brief summary which Taqiy al-Din al-Nabahani presents in his book, "The Islamic State" (pp. 121 and 122). He summarizes the history of Islamic offensive wars against the neighboring peaceful countries by saying, "Muhammad had begun to send troops and initiate campaigns against the Syrian borders such as the campaign of Mu’ta and Tabuk. Then the rightly guided caliphs ruled after him and the conquest continued. (The Arabs) conquered Iraq, Persia, and Syria whose faith was Christianity and which were inhabited by the Syrians, Armenians, some Jews and some Byzantines. Then Egypt and North Africa were conquered. When the Umayyad took over after the rightly guided caliphs, they conquered the Sind, Khawarizm, and Samarqand. They annexed them to the lands of the Islamic state."
According to all Muslim chroniclers, it is well documented that Armenia and Morocco were conquered during the era of ’Abdul-Malik Ibn Marwan. When his son, al-Walid, assumed the throne, he invaded India and Andalusia.
Also, Dr. ’Afifi Abdul-Fattah, the Muslim scholar, encapsulates the whole principle in a few explicit, straightforward words, as he says (page 382 of his famous book "The Spirit of the Islamic Religion"), "Islam has acknowledged war in order to exalt the word of God. This is a fight for God’s cause."
He also adds in p. 390, "Before the Islamic state declares war against another state, it should give (the other state) the choice between Islam, tribute or war."
We need not say anything more than that. Maybe this is what Muslims mean when they say, "We believe in human freedom and man’s right to choose according to his own will! We present him with three options, and he has the right to choose as he wishes — either to become a Muslim and pay alms to the Caliph of the Muslims, or pay the tribute and submit to Islamic rule, or we kill him."
Let the reader ponder the Muslim contradiction that a man has the right to choose whatever he wants within the Islamic context of individual freedom.


Conclusion
These are the Islamic offensive wars, my dear reader. We have already surveyed the Qur’anic verses which were expounded by both the great ancient and the contemporary Muslim scholars. We also alluded to the sayings of Muhammad, his own deeds and his orders to his companions, relatives and successors. We witnessed the bloody events of Islamic history narrating for us what Muslims did after the death of Muhammad and how they carried out his orders and the commandments of the Qur’an—how they fought with the People of the Book, the Jew and the Christian, until they paid tribute with humiliation and defeat. We have witnessed how they plundered the lands, killed the unfortunate, and captured women and children for no reason.
Moreover, we have already discussed all the matters pertaining to the death penalty of an apostate who dares to relinquish the Islamic faith and to embrace another religion, or to become an atheist. We also referred to an abundance of evidences and interpretations of Muslim scholars along with the deeds and sayings of Muhammad in this respect. He himself gave orders to kill anyone who is an apostate from Islam such as Umm Mirwan as the Azhar and all the Chroniclers denoted, and all those apostates who fled to Mecca.
Regarding offensive wars or imposing the Islamic religion on people by war, Muhammad said: "I was commanded to fight people until they say there is no God but the only God, and Muhammad is the apostle of God, and they perform all the Islamic ordinances and rituals."
We also examined Muhammad’s attitude towards the apostate. He made it clear that the apostate must be sentenced to death. He said about those who relinquish Islam: "Whoever changes his faith...kill him!"
Muhammad indicated that is it unlawful to shed the blood of a Muslim except in three cases: Unbelief after belief, adultery after integrity (or being married) and killing a soul without any right. The first case refers to the death penalty of the apostate and the oppression of his freedom and right to embrace any religion other than Islam Those are the clear claims of the Islamic religion as well as of Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, who always uttered at the beginning of every prayer or sermon, the following phrase, "In the name of Allah—the Compassionate, the Merciful!"
We talked about individual freedom and human rights! This is the prophet of freedom, mercy, tolerance and human dignity!
Has the veil been removed?
Is the deception over?
Judge for yourself.


http://www.islam-watch.org/Shabana/TruthAboutIslam3.htm

[ie11]

Islam convert or be killed? true or false?

What do you think?



FALSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


How and where does this apply (countries certain Islamic sects/groups etc) or is it anti Islamic propaganda?

IT DOESNT AND IT SHOULDNT (if a country oir situation like this exists) ... ITS UNISLAMIC TO DO SO. TOTATALLY. AND REALLY. IN REALITY - UNISLAMIC.


I am not a muslim BUT i have noticed your posts "Eternal Spirit" in recent months .... (and I am glad people like Scooby and Zarah etc exist on the forum to say the true story. For a moment i thought this forum would become really biased and slanted) ... and your attitude-posts concerning Islam and muslims is ANYTHING BUT INDICATIVE of being an "eternal spirit" ... common man/woman! You simply hate the religion it appears and are so biased in your arguments. Sorry. im having a little rant at you because everytime ive seen a post of yours (it may not be all the time you are like this but it sure does seem so) your muslim related posts and so twisted and hateful of muslims and islam (2 different things mind you) that it has put me off even visiting this forum.

Im very glad the Arrivals series has enetered this forum. ( ... Now, im not an avid supporter of Mr Hasheem etc and i dont know if they are right in the truest sense, but they are close nothwithsandng youth and current cultural climate ... )

So, in response to your question - which is a good one - and im glad you asked it without the usuial bias and hate impregnating your language , the answer is CERTIANLY and HISTORICALLY and AUTHENTICALLY anc REALLY NO!! TRUELLY NO!!! and the asnwer is NO!!!

And drop and forget that Islam bashing site you recently go to for so called authoritative claims of what ISLAM is from a known Islam Basher (i forget the www, ... no, i remember know, its called fathfreedom.org or .com ... LOL ... that site is a joke).

I mean . Even now, when you want to post what a muslim or islam stands for, you go to Wikipedia or Western sources, Pro Zionist, Pro NWO sources (and yet your are here on this forum!!?!?! whatver floats your boat ) for what islam stands for!!!!

Isnt that crazy!!!?!? If i wanted to know what a fireman does or believes do i go ask a doctor? or an arsenist!"?!!?!?

If i want to know what a man is like do i go to a woman who hates men?

or if i want to know what a woman is like do i go to a pimp?

if i want to know what a christian is do i go to a muslim?

if i want know what tibettan budhism is do i go to the chineese spokesman?

if i want to know god to i go to the devil?

if i want to know the devil do i go to God? (well ... LOL! maybe! coz the devil will always lie!!! lol!!! so thats one you might want to watch out for!!! LOL )


but you get my piont!!

I mean ... there are a billuon muslims ... in the world ... at least ... just hang around them. Visit a mosque. take them at their word as you do Wiki or You may do the author of faithfreedom!!!

I mean, are you so against it?

yep there a many muslims you are street or nationb cultured and will not give you a good insight in to it ... but you just gotta use your discernment and reasonableness and hunaity when judging anything ... just like this; is every catholic priest a peado??!?!? NO!!!!!!!!!!! Is Catholisims about Peado !?!?!? NO!!!!! but a few Nobs are!! and even then , when people fall, its for reasons!!!

where is your compasion. your hadeeth and schollar quotations as printed are correct but always out of context and missing the why and the application.,


in the yeatr 2240 aliens land on a barren earth and discover the constitution of holland burried under piles of rubble along with a page from the bible and a dvd of gauntanemo bay and blairs speach about iraq and afganistan alongside footage of massacres in iraq and afganistan caused by tanks and missles of the west ... and they read ... :

o “If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in, that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, ‘Let us go and worship other gods’. Then you must enquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely both its people and its livestock.” Bible, Deuteronomy 13: 12-16

* Dutch Constitution Article 97

o (1) All Dutch nationals who are capable of doing so shall have a duty to cooperate in maintaining the independence of the State and defending its territory.
(2) This duty may also be imposed on residents of the Netherlands who are not Dutch nationals


What conclusions would they come to!?!?!?!?

And ... wrong ones at that wouldnt they!?!?! Coz not all white, liberal believing, atheist, or whatver people are unjust murders and imposers.

If the aliens drew their conclusisons just for the DVD of the collateral damage, and the words above, and nothing else - i.e. ignored an infionite plethora of people, hispory, circumsytances, situations, reasoning, history etc ... then they would come to the most friegntening conclusioons about people who looked like barbara windsor or any european person or christian ... if thats what they only based their argument on.

"The compassinite thing may be to kill people if they wish to end their life and die" (suicide pact journal for instance)

but the words all missing exept for "kill people ... to end thier life" - what conclusions would you come to about the author!? notwithstandint your own personal viewsz on euthenasia!?>!?!?

Eternal Spirit ... at least live up to your name!

I'm offering to take you out to muslim houses and areas and multicultaral areas of london if you want to!!! Ill take you to a cafe thats european, muslim, arab, black and hipanic, christian etc ... in the primises of a mosque in east london ... and introduce you to muslims if you want !!! to get the idea of who and what they are!!!!?!?!??! And what islam is !!!!


Anyway .... futher reading - try :

Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower
Author William Blum
Country United States
Language English
Genre(s) Politics
Publisher Common Courage Press
Publication date 2000
Media type Print (Hardcover,Paperback)
Pages 394
ISBN ISBN 1-56751-374-3

This article is about a 2000 book by William Blum, for an explanation of the rogue state concept, see Rogue state.

Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower (ISBN 1-56751-374-3) is a 2000 book by William Blum. It examines and criticizes United States foreign policy during and following the Cold War. The book's first chapter is titled "Why Do Terrorists Keep Picking on the United States". Subsequent chapter titles include "America's Gift to the World — the Afghan Terrorist Alumni", "The U.S. Versus the World at the United Nations" and "How the CIA Sent Nelson Mandela to Prison for 28 Years".
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Mention by bin Laden
* 2 Other editions
* 3 References
* 4 See also
* 5 External links

[edit] Mention by bin Laden

It was mentioned in a speech by Osama bin Laden broadcast on January 19, 2006. Bin Laden stated: "If Bush carries on with his lies and oppression, it would be useful for you to read the book The Rogue State." Sales subsequently soared.[1][2][3]

When asked if he was disturbed by Bin Laden's endorsement of his book, Blum replied "I was glad. I knew it would help the book's sales and I was not bothered by who it was coming from. If he shares with me a deep dislike for the certain aspects of U.S. foreign policy, then I'm not going to spurn any endorsement of the book by him. I think it's good that he shares those views and I'm not turned off by that." Prior to bin Laden's statement, the book was ranked at 209,000 on Amazon's sales list. By the following Sunday it was number 12.

Bin Laden quoted the following passage: "If I were president, I could stop terrorist attacks against the United States in a few days. Permanently. I would first apologize - very publicly and sincerely - to all the widows and orphans, the impoverished and the tortured, and the many millions of other victims of American imperialism. Then I would announce to every corner of the world that America's global military interventions have come to an end." The quote is from Blum's 2004 book Freeing the World to Death: Essays on the American Empire.

[edit] Other editions

* Blum, William (2006). Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower. Zed Books Ltd. ISBN 1842778277.

THAT BOOK IS A CROSS BETWEEN JOHN PILGER AND DAVID ICKE ... GOOD STUFF.

AND,

Dajjal: The Anti Christ

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Dajjal: The Anti Christ (Paperback)
by Ahmad Thomson (Author)

5 Reviews
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6 of 7 people found the following review helpful:
4.0 out of 5 stars enlightened phsychological analysis, 30 Dec 2000
By A Customer
In contrast to the islamic way of life, which promotes and establishes its own system of governance, this book perpatuates the ideas of many predecessors who were not muslims (e.g. Marx) but managed to see a different sort of reality from what they were indoctrinated in believing. Anyone with a minimum understanding of all systems of governance e.g. democracy, communism etc and there ideas from birth to their present state would be able to associate with the ideas portrayed from a man who was doctrinated with the predominant view, and then was able to detach himself away from and fantastically compare and contrast its discrepancies when adopting the Islamic way of life. In essence it comes down to the individual reading the book, as to whom he is subordinate to, if anyone, anything, any system and if not, why?, if so, whose? those who possess the same human characteristics and organic requirements? or is he a free soul to do as he wishes....not according to this book. DEFINETELY A THOUGHT PROVOKER.
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10 of 14 people found the following review helpful:
4.0 out of 5 stars NEW WORLD ORDER: GLOBALISATION AND MUSLIM END-TIMES PROPHECY, 23 Oct 2002
By Tim Acheson (Hertfordshire, UK) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
This book is a serious and informative report on what many believe is a sinister conspiracy to establish control over the population of the world. The conspiracy is exposed with some compelling evidence, and explained in straightforward terms, through which what is really happening in the world today seems suddenly very clear.

"The more you embody the illusory ideal of the perfect
consumer-producer as depicted in the media... the greater
is your reputation for success in the consumer-producer
game."

Written by a respected Muslim author, "Dajjal, the antichrist" is a new and revised edition of his earlier book "Dajjal, the king who has no clothes". The word "Dajjal" is meaningless to most people outside the Muslim or Arab community, but this work deals with changes and events on a global scale which are currently familiar to everyone. "Dajjal" can be understood as synonymous with "Nuvus Ordo Seclorum" - the New Order of the Ages.

Not every reader will be interested in reading the enthusiastic recommendations of Islam, as an alternative to the Dajjal lifestyle, which are offered at regular intervals in the text. All who read this book will be enthralled by the striking comparisons drawn between the direction of modern international affairs and the ancient Muslim prophecy of the end of the world. Present-day observations clearly resemble very specific signs, which Muslims believe will immediately precede and forewarn the arrival of the anti-Christ and the advent of Judgement Day.

This is essential reading for anyone concerned about the important contemporary issues of globalisation and capitalism, and the book should not be overlooked by readers interested in the New World Order conspiracy theory or end-times prophecies.
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2 of 2 people found the following review helpful:
4.0 out of 5 stars a different perspective on western living, 21 Aug 2000
By A Customer
Ahmad Thomson gives us a differnt perspective on the political and economic system that has spread accross the world. Anywhere you go in the world today whether your in the United States or Kenya, the world has adopted a similar medical, legal, economic and educational system. Ahmad Thomson looks at this system from the perspective of Islam and the prophesies made by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in his hadith. Ahmad also uses examples from modern history to support his ideas (the prosecution of Ezra Pound and the Nuremberg trials). Although I haven't read the revised version I did read the Original (written in 1980). It is definitely an eye opening and interseting book, directed mainly towards non-muslims.
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THIS BOOK IS A GOOD INDICATION OF WHAT TRUE ISLAM IS ... and has alot about the nwo ... its a nice book ... BY AHMED THOMPSON ... A BRITISH BARRISTER (And former Bus Conductor!)

ANYWAY ....


ALSO , SOME ARTICLES FOR YOU TO CONSIDER ... quotations by non muslims in most cases .,...

Amnon Cohen on Sharia Law, Jews & Justice

Amnon Cohen, an American Jewish historian, studied the 16th century documents stored in the archives of the Shari’ah religious court of Jerusalem (commonly known as sijill), whereby he found 1000 Jewish cases filed from the year 1530 to 1601 CE. Cohen published his research in 1994 during which he made some astonishing discoveries, as he himself states:

‘Cases concerning Jews cover a very wide spectrum of topics. If we bear in mind that the Jews of Jerusalem had their own separate courts, the number of cases brought to Muslim court (which actually meant putting themselves at the mercy of a judge outside the pale of their communal and religious identity) is quite impressive[1]…The Jews went to the Muslim court for a variety of reasons, but the overwhelming fact was their ongoing and almost permanent presence there. This indicates that they went there not only in search of justice, but did so hoping, or rather knowing, that more often than not they would attain redress when wronged…The Jews went to court to resolve much more than their conflicts with Muslim or Christian neighbours. They turned to Shari’a authorities to seek redress with respect to internal differences, and even in matters within their immediate family (intimate relations between husband and wife, nafaqa maintenance payments to divorcees, support of infants etc.).’[2]

Cohen further elaborates upon the Jewish condition in the 16th century Ottoman Jerusalem:

‘Their possessions were protected, although they might have had to pay for extra protection at night for their houses and commercial properties. Their title deeds and other official documents indicating their rights were honoured when presented to the court, being treated like those of their Muslim neighbours[3]…The picture emerging from the sijill documents is baffling. On the one hand we encounter recurring Sultanic decrees sent to Jerusalem – in response to pleas of the Jews – to the effect that “nothing should be done to stop them from applying their own law” regarding a variety of matters. There are also many explicit references to the overriding importance of applying Shari’a law to them only if they so choose. On the other hand, if we look closely at some of the inheritance lists, we see that the local court allocated to female members of Jewish families half the share given to male members, exactly as in Islamic law. This meant, ipso facto, a significant improvement in the status of Jewish women with respect to legacies over that accorded them by Jewish tradition, although it actually meant the application of Islamic law in an internal Jewish context [4]…he [the Muslim Judge] defended Jewish causes jeopardized by high-handed behaviour of local governors; he enabled Jewish business people and craftsmen to lease properties from Muslim endowments on an equal footing with Muslim bidders; more generally, he respected their rituals and places of worship and guarded them against encroachment even when the perpetrators were other Muslim dignitaries.[5]’

And finally Amnon Cohen describes the effectiveness of Islamic law for Jewish interests:

‘No one interfered with their internal organisation or their external cultural and economic activities…In a world where civil and political equality, or positive social change affecting the group or even the individual were not the norms, the Sultan’s Jewish subjects had no reason to mourn their status or begrudge their conditions of life. The Jews of Ottoman Jerusalem enjoyed religious and administrative autonomy within an Islamic state, and as a constructive, dynamic element of the local economy and society they could – and actually did – contribute to its functioning.’[6]

[1] Amnon Cohen, A World Within: Jewish Life as Reflected in Muslim Court Documents from the Sijill of Jerusalem (XVIth Century). Part One, 1994, Pennsylvania, p. 8.
[2] Ibid, p. 17.
[3] Ibid, p. 18.
[4] Ibid, p. 20-21.
[5] Ibid, p. 22.
[6] Ibid, p. 22-23.
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And


The Gaza Massacre & Neo-Conservatism

The Zionist Israeli state has once again started a military campaign to destroy the Palestinian Muslims. Bombs and shrapnel have now replaced grass, their only staple diet that the Muslims of Gaza were forced to eat due to the sanctions and border restrictions enforced by the Zionists. The fascist Israeli state has shown its determination to collectively destroy a people who were weak and defenseless; all under the guise of securing its towns and cities against intermittent small arms fire.

This over-zealous outlook to foreign policy is heavily influenced by the neo-conservative ideology. It can be argued that it is this ideology that is responsible for the destruction of the Muslims in Gaza. However, if the neo-conservatives were to be 'true' to their own philosophy, it would be the correct concept of Jihad[1] they would be calling for and not the annihilation of the Muslims in Palestine. Out-of-the-ordinary this may sound, but if anyone were to reflect upon history, Jihad and Islam would be the only answer to the conflict; as they have an unprecedented history in facilitating justice and peace between all communities. Jihad is not terrorism and wanton destruction; rather it is the removal of injustice and oppression, just like when the Jews of Palestine fought Jihad with the Muslims against the oppressive crusaders in the 11th and 12th Centuries (for more detail about the true concept of Jihad please click here).

One of the fundamental philosophical elements of the neo-conservative outlook is that ‘Experience Matters’. Neo-conservatism rests on the premise that human reason is limited; this is why human experience and history are vital as references to solve contemporary problems. This creates a mentality that is incongruous with experimentation and radical ideas. Neo-conservatives argue that while some experiments may work and improve our situation as human beings, we cannot be sure that they will succeed. David Hume is often attributed with the title of the first conservative political theorist and he was the first to philosophically defend conservatism. Some of his philosophical claims include that human understanding must be drawn from experience and that we must attribute cause to events on the basis of experience.

What makes neo-conservatism stand out from other forms of conservatism is the objective to fight against tyranny. This idea originates from Leo Strauss, who became a Zionist at the age of 17, and much of his political and religious thought evolved drawing on Judaic ideas. Strauss argued that tyranny should be resisted regardless of what international institutions like the U.N. says, because bilateral institutions reflect relativism; which would only balance varying interests and cultural differences. Since neo-conservatism rejects relativism for a form of objectivism (based upon historical experience), then international law is rejected. Hence Zionist Israel continues to eliminate innocent lives, as and when it wants.

At the beginning of the 21st Century neo-conservatives have seen ‘fundamentalist’ Islam as the main source of tyranny. However if we take the example of Gaza and the Palestinian problem, the neo-conservatives should not be calling for the bombing and indiscriminate killing of Muslims, they should be calling for Jihad, because history bears testimony that Jihad has truly removed oppression and secured peace. What is meant by Jihad here is the removal of oppressive and tyrannical forces, examples include when the Mongols invaded Central Asia, Persia, Iraq and Syria in the 13th century. Jihad seeks to push occupiers out and has nothing to do with terrorism; in reality it is a basic human right. [2]

It logically follows that if, according to neo-conservative thought, human experience is the source for resolving conflict and that tyranny should be fought – then the fight should not be against ‘fundamentalist’ Islam and Muslims - rather, the fight should be taken to the real cause of the tyranny; Zionism itself.

History has shown that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was caused due to the unjust occupation of Muslim land. Experience tells us that the highest levels of damage and destruction have been caused by the killing machines of the Zionist entity, and not the so-called fanatics. For example, during the occupation, far more Muslims have been killed than Israelis.[3] The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs published a paper on Israeli-Palestinian fatalities since 2000 and the key trends identified were; the declining number of Israelis killed and a continuing high death rate for Palestinian adults and children particularly in the Gaza Strip.

Historical experience has proven that conservatism, secularism, liberalism, and ‘democracy’ have collectively failed to solve the conflict. However, history and experience has shown that under Islam, and the correct application of its foreign policy[4], the entire region and the minority communities, such as the Jews, did not suffer anything like the suffering being witnessed today. The famous letter from a Rabbi, after Europe’s persecution of the Jews, found in Phillip Mansel’s book “Constantinople ”, reflects this reality,

"Here in the land of the Turks we have nothing to complain of. We possess great fortunes; much gold and silver are in our hands. We are not oppressed with heavy taxes and our commerce is free and unhindered. Rich are the fruits of the earth. Everything is cheap and every one of us lives in peace and freedom..."[5]

Heinrich Graetz, a 19th century Jewish historian also expressed similar sentiments,

"It was in these favourable circumstances that the Spanish Jews came under the rule of Mahometans..."[6]

It has now become an established fact that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has not been solved via the solutions proposed by Western governments. Western nations have shown clear signs that the solutions they propose are not working. Take democracy for example, western politicians exclaimed that democracy was the answer to the conflict, however when Hamas were democratically elected western nations are now engaging in the obvious plot to empower pro-Israeli PLO and demonise Hamas by marketing the Gaza massacre as a struggle against 'Hamas-Taliban' style extremists. Additionally the International Community’s insistence on destabilising the region by endorsing an unelected but pro-Israeli government further highlights the fact that the solutions change when the results are not in line with neo-conservative foreign policy.

Since neo-conservative thought seeks to find solutions by reflecting on history and experience, many commentators would argue that they should be calling for the Muslims to cross the Israeli borders to liberate the region from the tyranny of injustice and the blood thirsty Zionist ideologues. Just like what Zion Zohar, a Jewish Historian, said about the Jews of Spain:

"Thus, when Muslims crossed the straits of Gibraltar from North Africa in 711 CE and invaded the Iberian Peninsula, Jews welcomed them as liberators from Christian Persecution."[7]

It is only a matter of time that the Zionist ideologues, whose neo-conservative foreign policy caused the current global problem, will realize that Islam and the real concept of Jihad will solve the conflict. For the neoconservative, this is a fact, as it is based upon hundreds of years of positive experience. But on reflection, neo-conservativism will never realise that Islam is the solution, because they always want it to be a problem, as Islam challenges their system and way of life. Even if Islam was the only workable solution, they would prefer shedding fellow human beings blood instead of acknowledging the truth. As for people of conscience the Qur’an has clear advice.

"And what is the matter with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and for the oppressed among men, women and children who say, ‘Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper'"[8]

This fight involves sacrificing wealth by donating for Gaza charity appeals, exposing the Zionist propaganda, spreading awareness about the Israeli injustice, getting involved in campaigns against western and Arab governments for being supportive of Israel and being complicit in these attacks, boycotting Israeli goods, writing letters of complaint, and encouraging Imams to speak about this issue. Significantly this fight includes calling for the solution that history has proven to work - Islam.

[1] http://hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/2008/12/911-77-madrid-bombing-mumbai-attacks-is.html
[2] http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/chapter7.htm
[3] http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/d9d90d845776b7af85256d08006f3ae9/be07c80cda4579468525734800500272!OpenDocument
[4] http://hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/2008/12/911-77-madrid-bombing-mumbai-attacks-is.html
[5] Philip Mansel. 1995. Constantinople: City of the World's desire, 1453-1924. Penguin Books, p. 15
[6] H. Graetz, History of the Jews, London , 1892, Vol 3, P. 112.
[7] Zion Zohar, Sephardic & Mizrahi Jewry, New York, 2005, P. 8-9.
[8] Qur’an 4:75
4 comments

And so what if they NON VIOLENTLY strggle for the solution of islam!?!?!

what are we forum "what can we do / the awakening " forum users doing????

we are NON VIOLENTLY "sturggling" for our own Solutions ... everyone is entitled to that.


And if you happen to use Violance ONLY in DEFENSE of Oppression or other Violance ... who is to say thats wrong!??!?!? Its only human to defend yourself ort your sister or brother when they are being rapped accross the hall ... or what are you going to do? silently protest or tell the person with the knife and dick hanging out in the mouth of your sister "to stop please!?"

that guy has gone beyond words and is now IMPOSING himself on your sister or brother .,... and you are really going to sit there and not try to get in the way or stop him!!?!?!?!?

and if not to stop him, but to stop your sisters hurt and pain? and to try all you can - as a human sister - to stop the Injustice boing done to your sister ?!???!?


Your crazy ES!!! Cummon ... everyone wants peace and love and niceness ... but weve got ugly realities to deal with sometimes!!!

and a muslim ultimately sees these as nothing but tests from his lord to get closer to him in deeds, heart and thought ... and knows that in the end that the Lord, in the end, no one will be wronged by his Lord, not even a date seeds hairs breadth (i.e. all scores will be settled in the final true reality of the afterlife, of which this place is just a passing illusion-phase-dream (as paraquoted from the quran)) ...

therefore, give to charity, smile, be charitable, and remember teh prayer ... and fast in teh appoiunted time ... and "remember Me. your source and your return" (for your OWN benefit. Not Mine, god says in teh quran. He is neither harmed nor benefited by a muslims or non muslim actions or prayers or non prayers. He needs us not. We need Him. Al-Hamdullilah (grattitude) )


... sorry ...(long mad post) .. i need to go have a piss now ...

:)

[eternal_spirit]

I may read your book later lol.

All the proof is in the post above yours and others. I have no time for religious bigots and fundamentalists who genitally mutilate boys and girls as religiously instructed. That should be enough to put any sensible person off ever becoming Muslim.

Would you cut part of your ears off to hear better? No!

[eternal_spirit]

So, in response to your question - which is a good one - and im glad you asked it without the usuial bias and hate impregnating your language ,

look buddy it's Islam not me. Go to you tube look up (hidden mosque) it was on channel4 a woman goes in with hidden mic and camera in the biggest Mosque in London. See what some Muslims think of the English.

[quysant]

And they'll kill anyone else who won't convert, or pay money tax, that's the choice. All 3 or is it 4 denominations/types of Islam teach this.

This is common knowledge amongst fundamentalist sects, most Muslims are not aware of it.
They will insist that Islam is the religion of peace.



Whoever refuses to enter Islam should be fought when the Muslims are able to fight, until they either enter Islam or pay the jizyah if they are among the people who may pay jizyah. The kuffaar should be compelled to enter Islam if they are not people from whom the jizyah may be taken, because that will lead to their happiness and salvation in this world and in the Hereafter.

The basic principle concerning compulsion is in the words of Allaah:

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]”

[al-Anfaal 8:39]

“Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”
[al-Tawbah 9:5]

This verse is known as Ayat al-Sayf (the verse of the sword).

These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim.

And Allaah is the Source of strength.

Majmoo’ Fataawa wa Maqaalaat li’l-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 6/219

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/34770/compulsion%20in%20religion

[eternal_spirit]

They are taught to pretend (act) to like none Muslims, and then they are told in secret we are lesser and vile and our none Muslim life styles are evil.

Regardless I'll have to take others word that they know Muslims who are good people not extremists and also want peace. Hopefully the large majority of Muslims are not extremists and don't want to Jihad and convert the rest of us. Time will tell.

[quysant]

They are taught to pretend (act) to like none Muslims, and then they are told in secret we are lesser and vile and our none Muslim life styles are evil.

Regardless I'll have to take others word that they know Muslims who are good people not extremists and also want peace. Hopefully the large majority of Muslims are not extremists and don't want to Jihad and convert the rest of us. Time will tell.

The idea that Islam is a “peaceful religion hijacked by extremists” is a dangerous fantasy--and it is now a particularly dangerous fantasy for Muslims to indulge.

Sam Harris has a very good point about moderate Islam here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/who-are-the-moderate-musl_b_15841.html

[skunksmash]

surly anyone who believes in god (in any form) cannot belive that he or it would want a certain group of ppl killed..... its just madness


there are additions made over the centuries by ''man'' but they are seen as divinely written...:confused:

all religion emanates from the same place with 1 message, enjoy peace, love & free will....

& along the way, billions have died in holy wars started by misreading & dis information added by the powers at any given time throughout history....:mad:


so any god that tells you to kill is ''man made'' ;)




:)SK

[quysant]

surly anyone who believes in god (in any form) cannot belive that he or it would want a certain group of ppl killed..... its just madness


there are additions made over the centuries by ''man'' but they are seen as divinely written...:confused:

all religion emanates from the same place with 1 message, enjoy peace, love & free will....

& along the way, billions have died in holy wars started by misreading & dis information added by the powers at any given time throughout history....:mad:


so any god that tells you to kill is ''man made'' ;)

:)SK


Organized religions are industries of deceit.

[ie11]

I may read your book later lol.

All the proof is in the post above yours and others. I have no time for religious bigots and fundamentalists who genitally mutilate boys and girls as religiously instructed. That should be enough to put any sensible person off ever becoming Muslim.

Would you cut part of your ears off to hear better? No!

ES,

The ease with which you can attribute a totally non muslim, totally non islamic behaviour to belinging to Islam or Muslims (as opposed to the difficulty someone like yourself perhaps may have in attributing a totaly non-buddhist or totally non-free, non-liberal, non-davidicke behaviour to a buddhist, or liberal or david icke reader) just shows to me:
a. the extent of your ignorance of Islam
and/or
b. the extent of the conditioning your mind is in as done by the media, 'education', anti-islamic or anti-peace influences aroud us, i.e. like this economic system and the media for starters!

Islam prohibits the mutilattion of girls if i take your word mutultaion to mean circumcise. Mutulation or rather circumcision is only for boys.

And if there are a few tribes or people around who call themselves muslims who do circumcise their daughters (and i know that there are people like that so ive read in western media articles and the somali press) then that is a muslim who is doing a NON-muslim or NON-Islamic action.

Just like if someone purpoting to be a buddhist or christian took a gun to the streets and killed people in the name of their religion thinking it was in their religion or because they wanted to.

that would be a buddhist doing a non-buddhist action. it would be a christian doing a non-christian action. dont you get it?

Ill get to the boys bit now ....

firsly Its not forced or imposed on non-muslims. so what are you complaining about!? or is it because you care for your brother and sister and humanity so much? ... ?

i didnt hear you complaining of the mutulation of western boys and girls psychologies through the markets, the mass-media or the stereo systems screaming out of shops abusing the mind of the young yelling to them in other words - "buy buy buy", which is far greater problem imo.

And, i didnt hear you complaining of the mutulation of the 5 year old kids lives in Brazil or Argentina trawling through rubbish dumps to find some trash they can sell to feed themselevs and their family because of an unjust global economic system imposed upon them, their families and us by the same powers that conditioned and taught you to think like that, by the same powers that usurped their countries resources, and are taking their land away from them with no rights and pulluting their water and air !?!?

I didnt hear you complain of these more gross, barbaric, unjust and quite matter of fact, more pressing and more urgent and more relevant things? did i?

All i hear you complain about is what you spin as mutulation, what 1/2 billion muslims (men only), and half of all jews and anyone with a hygene problem down there is advised to do by the doctor!

Its not mutulation!

I sure my muslim mates are now crying in their beds at the age of 31 remembering the time their horrible mum and dad enforced upon them the cut, and feeling the pain. Oh, how horrible and tradgic. I must put a stop to it! Those poor muslim friends of mine and their wives! Those poor wives who enjoy better longer lasting sex because their husbands cut! Im sure they are pissed off too!

Is your favourite jewish actor, lets say that guy in "Something about Mary", i forgot his name, is he mutilated? Is he scared psyschologically and mentally and emtionally for life because he was cut when he was a kid!?!?!?!

Im sure they have nothing else or better to worry about then the time they were grosely mutilated down there!

Im sure those Poor kids in argentina living in rubbish tips and those slum children in India and the poor disabled guys who faught in the war and have no limbs are grossely crying over the mutulation and pain infected upon muslim boys. Im sure they are happy in thier own worlds and thankful for the liberal western economic godless system the live in! im sure they are not emotionally andf mentally conditioned even though their lifestyle is stuck in rubbish heaps for life and they are already conditioned for life through this muttulation of thier souls.


I tell you who is scared, conditioned and effected horrifically by real mutilation, ill tell you what real mutilation is.

Real mutilation ES is seeing your baby daughter blown up infront of you and picking up half her body from the dirt while her entrails hang out due to Zionist tanks or seeing the same happen to your parents through war, any war. real mutulatyion is hunger you are feeling in your tribe who cant eat coz the food prices are fixed and your not allowed to grow your own crops while the west laughs.

Real Mutilation is the whole of humanity working like dogs for nothing just to make a living, just to pay an illusiory rent which has already paid itself 10 times over through previos tennents and just keeps the land owner rich, or living horrd lives under the bankers drafts, the bankers usuary which kills and injures peoples spirit and lives and view of reality, 10 million times a day, 10 million times more.

real mutilation, real robbery is taking away peace from the preception of men , women and children through psychological and physical means ... i.e. oppressive adverts around town, roaring industrial-mechanical machines down the high street, not a tree in sight, people wearing stiff suits looking glum and too busy going to and from cubicles called offices just to keep this robotic anti-purtpose-of-any-real-meaning, system .

This is our civilisation. No. This is not our civilisation. This is the civilisation that was imposed on us from birth by imperialists, royals, masons, archictects, bankers, which we have come to terms with being normality.

You would know, when asked about western civilisation Ghandi replied "it would be a nice idea".

You see Eternal Spirit, Anyone can be EMOTIONAL and EMOTIVE with their posts to try to prove their point.

If you put in enough emotion and reasoning you can influence, force, persuade and indeed MANIPULATE anyone to atleast EMPATHISE with you and what you are saying.

I wasnt asking for that. I was asking for reason.

But thats not my point. My point is , why cant you be reasonable. Just

[eternal_spirit]

quote:ie11
Islam prohibits the mutilattion of girls if i take your word mutultaion to mean circumcise. Mutulation or rather circumcision is only for boys.

You haven't a clue and are wrong. Like I've already said, Circumcision is a religious instruction for both Islamic males and females.

[eternal_spirit]

And there are no health benefits to it.
I've been through this so many times before. You can do your own research to verify what I'm saying or I may be forced to dig out some quotes from other posts of mine.

Mutilation can never be justified as a religious ritual. It is totally and utterly wrong and serves no benefits to the victim.

[sophia_h]

`

Organized religions are industries of deceit.

so true



the muslims copied the xians

who copied the jews

who copied the gods

who told them they were chosen


all religions go KILL KILL KILL anyone
who doesnt bow to
their gods of HATE and KILLING

especially of women and children


TYRANNY

.

[14april2000]

This site is pretty good there 2 muslims involved in the project.

http://www.historyofjihad.org/

[adbasque]

I have read few posts about this subject, and I am very disappointed with some of the posts, mainly when you think finally people have grasped the whole thing and then suddenly you realise, that there still a lot of ignorance around.

Let me explain few points I have read so far:

First of all let me start by saying, there's no such thing as an Islamic Nation today, none whatsoever, the people are Muslims but no government is Islamist, I can defy anyone who can prove me wrong.

I'll explain why I am so certain of what I am saying,

All muslim governments are corrupt, they do not decide, let me ask you a question first.

Most of these Muslim countries are rich, we agree?
how come their populations are starving?
how come a country rich in gas, petrol, oil, and many other minerals, natural resources, and yet it's people live bellow the belt of poverty?
How come all of their governors presidents are mainly dictators
Lybia for instance, lovely people, but their president who is an "arab jew"
check it out, and he is a CIA agent.

If he was a Muslims why did he create a book that he calls the Green Book
he wanted to replace the Quoran, but it didn't work.

Just like Fidel Castro, Pinoche and many others.

I'll leave it to your intelligence do the maths.

Second point

People have this word implanted in their heads no matter what it means, they don't want to know, because lot of people don't want to finally accept

The word Djihad, let me educate some of you who refuse to accept simple facts.

Djihad is an arabic word for "Struggle", in Quoran it clearly says "Djihad Anafs"
meaning a struggle with oneself against all evil temptations, like greed, selfishness, arrogance, and so on.

Islam also says you must defend yourself, your family, your neighbour, your land, can anyone here tell me what's wrong with this?

The "Muslims" that people have seen as "killers, monsters, savages, backwards" suddenly start to appear to be peace loving people, like most people in the world.

They simply don't know how to deal with their new discovery, as if they don't like the fact that these Muslims are NOT animals as we previously thought damn IT!!!. it came almost as a disappointment to some.

Third if an Irish blows people up we call him an IRA militant or whatever, if a Basque blows people up we call them seperatist basque militant, when a Mossad agent blows people up, he is a freedom fighter.

When a CIA + MOSSAD + MI5 kills thousands of people, they blame it on some fake CIA agents or better even Assets, it's the entire Islam and Muslims that are tarnished, why this double standard? why this hatred.

We all know until today they could not prove that 9/11 or 7/7 had anything to do with any muslims whatsoever.

the 7/7 bombing, one of the alleged suicide bombers his ID was found in two different locations, how is that possible? hein, it's in the main Media for gods sakes:)
don't take my word for it, they were framed and there's a whole documentary about it.

The execution of Jean Charles De Menzez if you guys think it was just a mistake, then I won't waste my time here.

He was killed because he knew too much, I give you some clues,
Power surge the day of the bombing? + De Menzez "Electrician" + the bombs ripped through the train's floor upward?

Add all these you will find the answers.

most of the prisoners in guantanamo were literally snatched from their homes and had nothing to do with the 9/11, some of them were former Moujahidine some of them were not even born.

And after all they had the right to defend their country, that was illegally invaded.

What really pisses me off about some people, is they don't bother to find out for themselves, they simply repeat what they heard somewhere, and repeat it even if they discover that the source was a lie, they still maintain the lie, and accept it.

For most people believe that Muslims are backward people, let me educate some of you who haven't got a clue what Islam and Muslims did contribute to this planet.

When Europe was still living in the dark ages, before I say anything I suggest to check it out for yourselves don't take my word for it.

Islam was the first to invent what we know today as hospital
Muslims were the first to successfully perform eye operations
Muslims were the first to invent most of the surgery tools
Muslims were definitely the first to discover that light travels in a straight line
Muslims were the first to invent the social economic system that even Napoleon wanted to use before he was exiled.

Muslims were the creators of Algebra. not to mention Astrology, Astronomy, and Chemistry. and especially Physics.
We use it today for our modern science without it, nothing will exist as it combines Artihmetic and Geometry
Believe me I can go on like this for hours, but you got the picture.

They made you hate Muslims and they have succeeded for some here they think they are aware, they understand what's going on, but sorry to say, you understood nothing absolutely NOTHING!!

I am a convert yes, and I have good reasons for that, I know what I know, but please forget this Djihad thing unless you know what you're talking about.

I hate repeaters, I would respect anyone who comes up with his/her own theories and own reseaches, but what I cannot stand is a repeater, a parrot.

Have a nice day
Peace everyone :)

[mephibosheth]

now lemme tell you what muslims did for the solution.
they sent an ambassador to those nations, he gives them THREE choices, 1.convert to islam, 2.pay jizya or 3.prepare for war.
1. conversion to islam is a very non-selfish request,


Ah, I can't support this line of arguing anymore. Muslims keep making this argument, over and over, reiterating the lines from the Quraan, and trying to appologetically gloss over the only undeniable fact that this 'policy' presents.

Subjugation is subjugation, no matter what form it comes in. A conqueror doesn't always wield a sword.

The fact is there are only two choices presented here.

(1) Become a servant of the Islamic Empire

or

(2) Fight for your life


Islam, when in command, is not interested in freedom, liberation, and equality. If you happen to believe differently than what the Quraan says, you will have to pay the consequences.

Contrast this to a free society where freedom of religion is a guarantee because the politics of the nation are NOT governed by religious dogma.

Perhaps such a nation doesn't exist in this world today. Especially in the USA, which used to be a bastion for the separation of church and state, where Executive Order 13397 has basically destroyed that confortable separation.



it is a very logical religion


There's nothing logical about Islam. Its faith-based, pure and simple. You have to have faith that an illiterate dude was confronted by an angelic being who taught him to recite poetry. He didn't give him proofs, nor scientific knowledge, nor a map of the world, nor a ready-made set of laws, which, if this source was surely who Muslims believe--on faith--him to be, would have been a simple matter. Instead, we get a wandering meandering work of poetry from which scholars have to extract rules and regulations from to build their subsequent laws and practices.

Yes, it's logical that sneezing is of the devil, that eating with your left hand is of the devil, that one should trim one's mustache but NOT his beard, that one should shave their underarms but nothing else, that the value of a woman's testimony is half that of a man's, that you should toss rocks behind you while on pilgramage, that you should kiss a meterorite, that a menstruating woman can't even touch a Quraan, and that men should be circumcized even though they are not under the jewish covenant.

But if the whole foundation of your reasoning is based on the idea that a man having seizures can faithfully deliver God's law, then I guess anything can seem 'logical'.





2. now suppose somebody, after listening to all the logics dont want to become a muslim, muslims ask him to remain the waay he was but pay jizya, for then muslims then accept him as a resident in their nation and use that jizya to pay all the expenses for his protection.


Protection from what?

The fact is, there is no reason I should have to pay ANYONE on earth for the right to believe whatever I want in the sphere of religion. So if I accept this, I have accepted slavery to the Islamic empire.



3. and lastly if someone says , hell with all this i dont need your protection and i wont pay ya nothin, do please go see what governments lawfully do to non-tax-payers. these people are considered hostile and war against them is necessary for a nation's survival.


Governments do not kill people for evading taxes.

And we're not talking about people WITHIN an Islamic nation that beg to differ. We are talking about an Islamic nation going up against what hitherto has been a free and independent nation on its own and then 'offering' these two choices.

(1) Become a slave to Islam by conversion or tax

or

(2) Fight for your life

8)

[adbasque]

Ah, I can't support this line of arguing anymore. Muslims keep making this argument, over and over, reiterating the lines from the Quraan, and trying to appologetically gloss over the only undeniable fact that this 'policy' presents.

Subjugation is subjugation, no matter what form it comes in. A conqueror doesn't always wield a sword.

The fact is there are only two choices presented here.

(1) Become a servant of the Islamic Empire

or

(2) Fight for your life


Islam, when in command, is not interested in freedom, liberation, and equality. If you happen to believe differently than what the Quraan says, you will have to pay the consequences.

Contrast this to a free society where freedom of religion is a guarantee because the politics of the nation are NOT governed by religious dogma.

Perhaps such a nation doesn't exist in this world today. Especially in the USA, which used to be a bastion for the separation of church and state, where Executive Order 13397 has basically destroyed that confortable separation.




There's nothing logical about Islam. Its faith-based, pure and simple. You have to have faith that an illiterate dude was confronted by an angelic being who taught him to recite poetry. He didn't give him proofs, nor scientific knowledge, nor a map of the world, nor a ready-made set of laws, which, if this source was surely who Muslims believe--on faith--him to be, would have been a simple matter. Instead, we get a wandering meandering work of poetry from which scholars have to extract rules and regulations from to build their subsequent laws and practices.

Yes, it's logical that sneezing is of the devil, that eating with your left hand is of the devil, that one should trim one's mustache but NOT his beard, that one should shave their underarms but nothing else, that the value of a woman's testimony is half that of a man's, that you should toss rocks behind you while on pilgramage, that you should kiss a meterorite, that a menstruating woman can't even touch a Quraan, and that men should be circumcized even though they are not under the jewish covenant.

But if the whole foundation of your reasoning is based on the idea that a man having seizures can faithfully deliver God's law, then I guess anything can seem 'logical'.






Protection from what?

The fact is, there is no reason I should have to pay ANYONE on earth for the right to believe whatever I want in the sphere of religion. So if I accept this, I have accepted slavery to the Islamic empire.




Governments do not kill people for evading taxes.

And we're not talking about people WITHIN an Islamic nation that beg to differ. We are talking about an Islamic nation going up against what hitherto has been a free and independent nation on its own and then 'offering' these two choices.

(1) Become a slave to Islam by conversion or tax

or

(2) Fight for your life

8)

You have no logic in your aguments you have ignorance and hatred, I don't need to discuss this any longer with you, unless you present with solid arguments and proper debate, debates like these, I have heard them all before the same few words come back on the table.

Before debating I suggest to try and understand, be a little less arrogant "know it all" and a little bit humble, then we can talk, I am tired of all of this
xenophobic comments.

Go on nobody is asking you to believe but have the decency to respect others.

And one last thing the government won't kill you if you don't pay your taxes, meaning you agree with their system, where in Islam it says they will kill you?
These governments were ripping you off and your ancestors for centuries but you seem to like it a lot

I don't believe for one minute that you are rejecting this current system, you just proved it by your own words
These governments won't kill, lol they simply suck you dry, and if you refuse to pay your taxes, they take all your belonging, house, car, everything you own, if you do own anything, and if you don't you will be thrown in jail like a criminal.

And even in jail you are not coming out unless you pay them, and not one tax is justified, unlawfully sucking people's sweat and blood.

yes they are sucking us dry, on a daily basis, not to mention fines, not to mention hidden taxes, or stealth taxes, and everyday they are coming out with new ways to taxes us.

Oh no these governments are kind and gentle, well I guess some people like being slaves, yes I'd rather be a slave to my maker then a slave to a man like me.

You have absolutely no idea what Islam is all about, I don't blame you, and I wish you all the best with your government.

Peace ;)

[adbasque]

This site is pretty good there 2 muslims involved in the project.

http://www.historyofjihad.org/

You are joking right? lol
how many times do we have to say this, listen people

The saudis are the most corrupt family in the entire arab world, most of them are homosexuals, they are NOT I repeat they are NOT muslims, they could not care one bit about Islam, they are greedy just like any other government in the world.

They are one of the families of the NWO, they are friends with the Bushes, the rothschilds, why is everyone here citing them as an example whenever they talk about Islam????


you will not find one muslim in the world who would recognise the Saudi royal family as Muslims, they are traitors to the Islamic world and the Arab populations.

So if people judge Britain because of the royal family, or Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Or the USA because of the Bushes??

We are talking about Muslims, and Islam, if the Saudis paid Ben Laden to wage war that was instigated by Israelis the CIA and the US government in conunction with the saudi secret services, directly from Bush to KIng of Saudia

that's what I said when I said you guys see what you want to see

Anyway I don't care what anyone thinks anymore

[mephibosheth]

You have no logic in your aguments you have ignorance and hatred


Bah! I've defended Islam from extreme misconceptions before, trying to be a moderate voice against stereotypes. But some arguments are just nonsensical.

So if your faith is so logical, then tell me where the logic is in thinking that yawning is of the devil? Or that eating with the left hand is of the devil?

Where's the logic in the idea of trimming the moustache but not the beard?

I challenge you to demonstrate this for us.

The fact is, the final argument that Muslims come up with for these and any other silly rules and traditions, is that 'Mohammed did this and so should you'. Well, if Mohammed jumped off a bridge, I'm sure Muslims would happily do the same.



I don't need to discuss this any longer with you, unless you present with solid arguments and proper debate...

That's fine, you don't have to do anything you don't want to. And I won't even make you pay me a tax to hold your beliefs.

But why don't you demonstrate how my analysis is incorrect--that those 'three options' Islam gives kaffir are realistically only two options--subject yourself to Islamic rule or fight for your freedom.

It's the principle of the attitude behind this 'rule' that gauls libertarians like myself, who easily see this as the cause of inevitable bloodshed. For those who have enough self-respect to refuse to be ruled by others, it guarantees warfare--and not just against individuals, but the whole of Islam.

How would you like it if a Hindu army marched up to your town and demanded that either you convert to Hinduism and worship Vishnu, pay a tax for the right to believe in Allah, or prepare to die?

You think this is a good and fair policy?



You have absolutely no idea what Islam is all about.


Sure I do. And the more I learn about it, the more it boils my blood. Outside of the basic premise of placing faith in a single Most High God, the rest of it falls to pieces right from the first angelic encounter, which conveniently is not mentioned in the Quraan.

8)

[14april2000]

You are joking right? lol
how many times do we have to say this, listen people

The saudis are the most corrupt family in the entire arab world, most of them are homosexuals, they are NOT I repeat they are NOT muslims, they could not care one bit about Islam, they are greedy just like any other government in the world.

They are one of the families of the NWO, they are friends with the Bushes, the rothschilds, why is everyone here citing them as an example whenever they talk about Islam????


you will not find one muslim in the world who would recognise the Saudi royal family as Muslims, they are traitors to the Islamic world and the Arab populations.

So if people judge Britain because of the royal family, or Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Or the USA because of the Bushes??

We are talking about Muslims, and Islam, if the Saudis paid Ben Laden to wage war that was instigated by Israelis the CIA and the US government in conunction with the saudi secret services, directly from Bush to KIng of Saudia

that's what I said when I said you guys see what you want to see

Anyway I don't care what anyone thinks anymore


No i am not joking, i being reading about jihad since 622AD to today and is not pretty.

Religious hate,murder, and enslavement 100 mio+ of Infidel woman/girls for sexual plesure, they also enslave children male or female and some times adullt man if not they just murdered them. religion of peace bullshit.

I see how muslims men look on western woman and girls, they called them whores, but they want them as slaves. Small 8 year boys saying to Infidel children your mother is a whore and most raped is being done muslim males some 85%.

Not to add the Saudi Arabian Royal Familiy abuse of beautiful girls /women, fashion models are also kidnaped they do also to pretty minor boys and girls. Most are pretty white girls and women with blue eyes and blond are kidnapped in western countries on the street,invited into private party druged,contaced on the street where they are ask if they want go expensive party but they can`t tell anyone because there will be powerfull people there, or fake model agency ads ín the newpapers or the net for modeling jobs or flim project that is a lie, places into an aircraft and sent to Saudi Arabian "where they disappears into their palaces and never hear from again, where they are hold as sex slaves "in harems" or not and if they not do not volunted they are beating for days, if the the girls try to run away brought back by the religious police if they become tired of girls they will be sold and resold to others and when when they become incapable they are thrown into the desert.

Arab jews or not very few know that the Saudi Arabian Royal Family is not muslim. I first hear that some years ago from synergy777, i was not sure it was true.

Right hand possessions (Malak-ul-Yameen) means slaves and maids, those came in possession of Muslims through war or purchase. After having the possession of slave maid it is lawful and correct to have sexual relation with them.

[adbasque]

Bah! I've defended Islam from extreme misconceptions before, trying to be a moderate voice against stereotypes. But some arguments are just nonsensical.

So if your faith is so logical, then tell me where the logic is in thinking that yawning is of the devil? Or that eating with the left hand is of the devil?

Where's the logic in the idea of trimming the moustache but not the beard?

I challenge you to demonstrate this for us.

The fact is, the final argument that Muslims come up with for these and any other silly rules and traditions, is that 'Mohammed did this and so should you'. Well, if Mohammed jumped off a bridge, I'm sure Muslims would happily do the same.




That's fine, you don't have to do anything you don't want to. And I won't even make you pay me a tax to hold your beliefs.

But why don't you demonstrate how my analysis is incorrect--that those 'three options' Islam gives kaffir are realistically only two options--subject yourself to Islamic rule or fight for your freedom.

It's the principle of the attitude behind this 'rule' that gauls libertarians like myself, who easily see this as the cause of inevitable bloodshed. For those who have enough self-respect to refuse to be ruled by others, it guarantees warfare--and not just against individuals, but the whole of Islam.

How would you like it if a Hindu army marched up to your town and demanded that either you convert to Hinduism and worship Vishnu, pay a tax for the right to believe in Allah, or prepare to die?

You think this is a good and fair policy?




Sure I do. And the more I learn about it, the more it boils my blood. Outside of the basic premise of placing faith in a single Most High God, the rest of it falls to pieces right from the first angelic encounter, which conveniently is not mentioned in the Quraan.

8)

Wow, scholars dedicated their entire lives and still yet haven't understood half of it and you flicked through it, and you already an expert, lol listen I don't mind debating, with people who are truly willing to understand, but in your case, I am sorry I can sense exactly what you're after.

before you make any judgment on anything in the Quoran try and read and read again and look for the meanings, this is not a place to teach or explain things.

Yes I don't believe there's a God, I know that there's a God not 1000 :)

For the Hindus marching up to my town, that simply confirms what I said, you haven't got the foggiest idea what the rules of Islam, the principles of it are.

Listen Islam is NOT a religion it is a way of life end of story, why are we debating this anyway?
what are you trying to prove? whatever you are trying I don't have the time for a simple reason I've heard it all before.

you are free to talk, so long as you don't try and spread false information and show some respect to others

Have a nice day

[synergy777]

as a sikh, my religion grew as a direct response to islamic imperialism/genocide against indians. we were given three choices as hindus, convert to islam, pay higher taxes for being non muslims or be killed.

we chose to fight back and we won.

[adbasque]

as a sikh, my religion grew as a direct response to islamic imperialism/genocide against indians. we were given three choices as hindus, convert to islam, pay higher taxes for being non muslims or be killed.

we chose to fight back and we won.

Lol coming from a Sik or a Hindu it wouldn't surprise me at all, if you only cared to look beyond who really was behind the division of your people :) but obviously too thick to see it.

you can't even see the obvious lol and you call yourself aware?
all you are carrying right now is hatred towards your people you are all Indians.

You were given three choices?
why would an Islamic Imperealist would want you to become a Hindu?
and you say your religion is a Sik, where did it come from?
didn't it come from Islam and Hinduims?

I have to laugh, you are not making no sense whatsoever, lol
some people are so full of hatred they can't even get their facts together.

The real enemy is hidden stiring you one against another, and you think you are ready to takle the illuminatis, people like don't care about what's going on, all you care about is to find forums where you can spill your venom at others.

Listen I am not responding to these sort of allegations anymore, you want someone to argue with go and find them somewhere else.

End of story
btw, whether you like it or not Islam is the fast growing Religion in the world.

More and more people are discovering it's real inner beauty and Islam is a religion of peace and love, it doesn't matter what you think of it.

Why do you think it's been attacked from every angle, but yet it still expanding and growing and there's nothing you or anyone can do about it :)

Have a great day

[eternal_spirit]

quote: adbasque
I am a convert yes, and I have good reasons for that, I know what I know, but please forget this Djihad thing unless you know what you're talking about.
Oh really that explains the many lies in your post.

[eternal_spirit]

you will not find one muslim in the world who would recognise the Saudi royal family as Muslims, they are traitors to the Islamic world and the Arab populations.




Mecca in Saudi Arabia is the holiest place in Islam the centre point and a Muslim's duty is to travel on a pilgrimage to Mecca.
The Saudi's live by the Koran/Hadiths/Shariah right? So they are true Muslims and following the laws of Alah/Mohammed and it's priesthood.

http://www.mckinneyia.org/images/Kabba_2.jpg

[eternal_spirit]

What actually happens to Apostates who are caught in Muslim countries?



Iran Ruhollah Rowhani, 52, was executed in 1998 for converting to the Baha'i faith from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). The US State Department has called on Iran "to protect (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) the lives of 15 other imprisoned Baha'is. Three of them, Ata'ullah Hamid Nasirizadih, Sirus Dhabih- Magadamme and Hidayad Kashifi, have already been sentenced to death. Moderate President Khatami can do little to help as the courts are controlled by religious hardliners.

The Reverend Mehdi Dibaj had converted from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) 45 years ago. On 21/12/93 he was sentenced to death on charges of apostasy. Released on appeal his body was found on 5 July 1994. The Reverend Haik Mehr, Superintendent of the Church of the Assemblies of God, who had campaigned against Dibaj's death sentence was found dead on 20/1/94. On 2 July 1994 the body of the Reverend Tatavous Michaelian, Chairman of the Council of Protestant Ministers in Iran was found with several gun shots to the head.

Egypt (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) We wish to raise what, at first glance, may appear to be an inconsequential or even humorous matter [at least in Australia where a good proportion of partners are unmarried]. A Cairo (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) court has ordered the divorce of a couple who wish to stay together. Islamists (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) have claimed that Professor Nasser Hamed Abu Zaid is guilty of heresy in writing that "Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)'s teachings should evolve with changes in society." However, a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) cannot be married to a heretic, a non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). He and his wife (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html), Ibtihal, also an academic have appealed against the ruling and can remain together for the time being. However if the prosecution stands, they could lose their jobs or even be killed .by fanatics as "adulterers ("living in sin") or as apostates ("deserters of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)") [From "Some Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) History]

While there are, as yet, no laws against apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the missionary or the convert may be convicted on other charges, for example "threatening social peace (http://www.peacefaq.com/peace.html) and intercommunal relations". There is, however, a Supreme Court ruling that a Moslem (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who apostacises is legally dead. He loses all rights and powers. He cannot withdraw funds from his accounts. Any person who kills him does not commit murder from a legal point of view because he is already legally dead. The "dead" person cannot marry or inherit. Nor is it possible for an apostate to have his identity card changed to "Christian (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html)". More than one hundred and fifty Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who have adopted Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) have been detained in maximum-security (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) prisons. They have been accused of threatening national unity. One example from a Copt (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html)ic press release, concerned the case of Dr. Abdul-Rahman who has been held in Cairo (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) without trial for two years for breaking with Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). He is in solitary confinement but his will has not been broken. He is undoubtedly being used as a warning to anyone else contemplating apostasy




Sudan Bit by bit the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) fundamentalists, the Ikhwan, were able to consolidate their power in Khartoum. In September 1983 a version of Shariah, the "September Law" was introduced. Many floggings, amputations and stonings were carried out. Incorporated in the law was ijtihad or "free interpretation". If the qazi was unable to find a relevant (http://www.peacefaq.com/palestine.html) law to convict a defendant he could search the Qur'an (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and Hadith (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) at his discretion. For example Mahmoud Taha, the 76 year old leader of the Republican Brothers was hanged in January 1985 for apostasy, although it was not a crime at that time.
A number of southerners living in the north had changed their names to Arabic (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html) ones to improve their business prospects. They discovered that they had done a dangerous thing; now they were expected to be practising Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and could not use their original names without being subject to the death penalty for apostasy. Similarly at risk were non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) families who adopted Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) or an Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) name so that they could qualify for relief supplies during a famine. Also trapped were non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) men who had "embraced" Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) so that they could marry Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) women (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) or to be able to obtain easy divorces.

15/7/98 Mekki Kuku is held in a Khartoum jail awaiting trial on a charge of apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html). Sudan has the death penalty for "deserting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)."

Mauritania "Every Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) guilty of the crime of apostasy, whether by word or action, will be invited to repent over a period of three days. If he does not repent within this time limit, he is to be condemned to death as an apostate and his property will be confiscated by the Treasury
Every Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who refuses to pray will be invited to fulfill the obligation of prayer in the prescribed time limit. .. If he persists in his refusal he will be punished by the death penalty."

India (http://www.peacefaq.com/india.html) The Muhtasib saw to it that the Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) did not omit the five daily prayers and the fasts of Ramadan. State musicians and singers were pensioned off. The death penalty for apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) was enforced.

Rushdie claimed (1985) to be a non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and so is not bound by Shariah blasphemy (http://www.peacefaq.com/blasphemy.html) laws. If he was born of Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) parents then the Shariah does not allow him to leave Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) even in childhood. The penalty under Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) law for apostasy is death. Did you know that Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) leaders in Britain want Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) religious law to rate as equal to existing British law? A British Pakistani (http://www.peacefaq.com/india.html) father murdered his daughter (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) for converting to a Jehovah's Witness. He would, of course, have been acquitted, under Shariah which the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) fundamentalists are trying to bring into England.

Chechnya Theologians from Chechnya and Dagestan ordered Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to carry out the death sentence against Gov. Aman Tuleyev "at the first possible opportunity". He has been accused of being baptized as an Orthodox Christian (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) on June 25.
The death penalty for apostasy ("deserting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)") is not Qur'anic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) but it is Shariah (Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Law) as Prophet Muhammad (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) executed a number of apostates.
Tuleyev denies the report that he had been baptized and says he is not religious. Thus he is still technically an apostate as, being of Kazakh origin, he is "a member of a predominantly Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) ethnic (http://www.peacefaq.com/race.html) group" as the theologians say.

Libya Indeed, the only Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) author to have cast doubts on male circumcision has had legal action brought against him and might be sentenced to death for apostasy. I am speaking of (retired) Judge Mustafa Kamal Al-Mahdawi, a personal friend of mine, who is today under a ferocious attack lead by Libyan religious circles in the mosques as well in the press. The preacher of the Mosque of the Prophet (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html), in Medina, Saudi Arabia (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html), published in July 1992 a pamphlet handed out free of charge in Libya. In this pamphlet, he asks the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Arab (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html) League and the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Conference to set up a collective fatwa (http://www.peacefaq.com/jihad.html) of all Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) scholars against this judge and to execute him as an apostate if he does not retract. As for his book, the preacher asks that it be removed from the shelves, burned and forbidden to any reader. He blames the judge for having, among other things, denied that male circumcision is compulsory when there is unanimity in favour of it and when Mohammed (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) was Himself circumcised 54.


Why is Apostacy such a terrible crime in Islam?



Apostasy (Irtidad) in Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) ?If a person is raised in a society which protects (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) his soul from the impurities of kufr and shirk, or if a person is shown the Right Path accepts it willingly - can such a person reject the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) faith? Is he allowed to apostate (become murtad)? Can he declare that he does not believe in God, Prophet Muhammad (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) and the Day of Judgement?
Once a person enters into the fold of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the rules change. As soon as you become a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) by your own choice, you are expected to submit yourself to Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) totally and completely. "O You who believe! Enter into submission, kaffatan!" (2:208) he surrenders the right of making decisions to Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and His Messenger. No believing man and no believing woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) has a choice in their own affairs when Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and His Messenger have decided on an issue." (33:36)
Now even the question of apostasy, irtidad or deserting of one's faith, for a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), becomes a shar'i/religious issue - even in this issue he is governed by the laws of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). And Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate.After coming into the fold of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), rejection of the fundamentals is not tolerated. If there are doubts in your mind about the fundamental beliefs of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), then discuss, question, debate, study and solve them BUT you are not allowed to leave Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), desert your own fitra!
On the issue of openly rejecting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) cannot just stand aside and see one of its followers going astray. It would allow discussions to understand and solve the problems, but not allow its followers to lower themselves from the sublime status of "surrendering to the will of Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)-Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)" to the status of those "who have hearts but do not understand, ears but do not hear, and eyes but do not see."

Apostasy is Equal to Treason Why does Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) not allow apostasy? Apostasy or irtidad in Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) is equal to treason. ?In Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the concept of treason is not limited to political and military affairs, it also has a spiritual and cultural dimension to it. In the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) order of sacredness, Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) then the Prophet (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) and then the Qur'an (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, nubuwwa, and qiyama form the constitution (http://www.peacefaq.com/democracy.html) of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Just as upholding and protecting (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) the constitution (http://www.peacefaq.com/democracy.html) of a country is a sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) by a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) is an act of treason. Apostasy i.e. the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), has also negative influence on the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) society, it is indeed a major fitna.
And that is why Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) has prescribed harsh punishment for irtidad. It must be emphasized that irtidad which we are dicussing here involves open rejection without any force and with the realization of what one's statements or actions imply. The punishment prescibed by the shari'a for apostasy is death.
Even the terms used by the shari'a for apostates give the idea of treason to this whole phenomenon. "Murtad" means apostate. Murtad can be of two types: fitri and milli. (1) Murtad Fitri means a person born of a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) parent and then he rejects Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Fitri means nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html) or natural. The term "murtad fitri" implies that the person has apostacized from his nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html), the nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html) of believing in God. (2) "Murtad Milli" means a person who converted to Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then later on he rejects Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Milli is from millat which means a community. The term "murtad milli" implies that the person that the person has apostacized from his community.
In the first case, the apostasy is like treason against God, whereas in the second case, the apostasy is like treason against the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) community. Probably, that is why there is also a difference in dealing with these two kinds of murtad.
A former kafir who becomes a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then apostates (Murtad Milli) is given a second chance; if he repents then he is not to be killed.
But one who is born as a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then apostates (Murtad Fitri) he is to be killed even if he repents. His repentance might be accepted by Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) but he still has to go through the punishment prescibed for his treason in this world.
This punishment is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is suspended.
(Excerpts from "Left Shoe News (http://www.hraic.org.uk/)")

http://www.peacefaq.com/apostacy.html

[mephibosheth]

The saudis are the most corrupt family in the entire arab world, most of them are homosexuals, they are NOT I repeat they are NOT muslims, they could not care one bit about Islam, they are greedy just like any other government in the world.

They are one of the families of the NWO, they are friends with the Bushes, the rothschilds, why is everyone here citing them as an example whenever they talk about Islam????

you will not find one muslim in the world who would recognise the Saudi royal family as Muslims, they are traitors to the Islamic world and the Arab populations.


So, if the Saudis are woefully misrepresenting Islam to the world, why aren't terrorists blowing them sky high? Where's the outrage of the 'Muslims world' against the Saudis? Are there demonstrations against this 'corrupt non-muslim' state that is just using Islam to further its own greedy ends? Why aren't Muslims burning Saudi flags?

Shouldn't these 'traitors' be brought to swift Islamic justice?

:confused:

[mephibosheth]

Wow, scholars dedicated their entire lives and still yet haven't understood half of it and you flicked through it, and you already an expert

lol, I never said I was an expert. Try reading the posts instead of interpolating and projecting your own vision into them. The essence is Islam is simple. Submission to authority above all else.


Hey adbasque, why don't you enlighten us then.

Start by demonstrating how the 'three options' Islam gives to kafir are NOT in fact only two options--submit to Islam or fight for your life. (Which for any self-respecting individual who values their liberty is only one option.)

Then, after that we can talk about the spiritual significance of grooming practices and why the Most High God should give a toss.

:rolleyes:

[adbasque]

What actually happens to Apostates who are caught in Muslim countries?

You guys are unbelievable, what are you trying to prove?
Saudis are NOT Islam, Arabs are not Islam I don't care how many images articles, 99.99.99% of articles out there are done by the Zionists and the people who hate Islam.

You can post as many pictures and links you want, this is not going to change anything, you will only convince people who already hate Islam, Once a person embraces Islam and finds out about the true Islam you can talk until you run out of breath.

More and more people are spreading false information, the internet is flooded by these people, fake Islamic websites spreading lies time and time again lol but the truth is they are wasting their time.

So keep up the good work ;)

I am tired of people like this, and yo uhave nothing better to do but spread false information, only to satisfy your own hatred and agenda for your masters.

[mephibosheth]

btw, whether you like it or not Islam is the fast growing Religion in the world.


This is, of course, another load of crap.

Islam is 'growing' only because birth rates in most Islamic countries and countries with large numbers of immigrants are high.

Islam isn't growing due to 'mass conversions'. There is simply no data to support this. In fact, no data at all. Muslims will admit that they don't know how many reverts there are. Nor are they likely to admit how many converts to other religions there are.

Religion, however, is something that one has to accept and adopt individually when one reaches an age of responsibility to make such a decision. You can't be 'born into Islam' or 'born into Christianity'. You might be born to Muslim parent, but until you adopt Islam as YOUR religion, it's only your parents that are Muslim. So birth rates, again, are a very poor measure of the 'growth' of Islam, because they don't measure anything at all...except lack of sexual health education in poor nations.

8)

[adbasque]

lol, I never said I was an expert. Try reading the posts instead of interpolating and projecting your own vision into them. The essence is Islam is simple. Submission to authority above all else.


Hey adbasque, why don't you enlighten us then.

Start by demonstrating how the 'three options' Islam gives to kafir are NOT in fact only two options--submit to Islam or fight for your life. (Which for any self-respecting individual who values their liberty is only one option.)

Then, after that we can talk about the spiritual significance of grooming practices and why the Most High God should give a toss.

:rolleyes:

I really haven't got time to clarify 1500 years of what Islam is all about the information is out there if you really want to learn about true Islam, but no you prefer to pick little things, I can give where to start for example, Andalucia, Jews and Christians were living inside the Empire protected by the Muslims from who? ask yourself this go and find the answers.

I have no time to waste with these little childish remarks

[mephibosheth]

I really haven't got time to clarify 1500 years of what Islam is all about the information is out there if you really want to learn about true Islam, but no you prefer to pick little things, I can give where to start for example, Andalucia, Jews and Christians were living inside the Empire protected by the Muslims from who? ask yourself this go and find the answers.


I don't want a clarification of 1500 years of Islam. If you know so much about it and want to clarify your faith for us unenlightened persons, just show us how those three options do NOT reduce to two realistic options?

Or, even easier, perhaps, is to demonstrate how Islam is a logical religion when it's founded on the belief that an illiterate man received instructions from an angel?

Let's note, that Mohammed didn't even speak to God, but some other being.

Even if we accept the story at face value--that Mohammed (or someone) had an encounter with some other-worldly being--there's no way to know that such a being was truly 'God's messanger' and not some other agent.

Again, where's the logic?

Why should I accept a religion that in its very origin story seems at best suspicious and at worst ridiculous?

:confused:

[adbasque]

This is, of course, another load of crap.

Islam is 'growing' only because birth rates in most Islamic countries and countries with large numbers of immigrants are high.



Lol you really are full of hatred, all across Europe, or the West if you prefer, some parts of Asia, conversions are in a larger scales, wait for data to drop from the sky, lol really feel sorry for you and your hateful nature, your words said it all.
You're asking me to
You are talking from hate not facts, you use lies to spread false information.

If you want to learn anything about it, the information is out there as well as the lies, the choice is yours.

But don't come here and bash my religion just so you get some attention, don't insult me or my religion, I am not insulting you and whatever things you believe in.

No, I mean white people former Christians, Former Jews, and so on it has nothing to do with Immigrants, Islam is growing as I said before, whether you like it or not it is growing more and more people become muslims and that is

across the entire European continent, Nothern America, and beyond, I know you don't like it but this is a fact and you can seach it for yourself.

I always encourage people to search for themselves not to take my word, because I don't lie I don't have to.

I know you probably feel sick to see as many people converting to Islam.
but you will get over it :)

I don't normally hold these kinds of discussions, because I get tired very quickly when I see poison being unleashed.

Have a good day I am not responding after this, I simply don't have time for this.

[adbasque]

Oh really that explains the many lies in your post.
Hahaha who's lying here?

I don't lie I don't have to lie and don't turn the table on me, yo uare the one with lies and false information, I said "The royal family are corrupt" and you went and pasted where Mecca is, what sort of an argument is this?

I am talking about the leaders, you tarnishing the Muslim Uma and Islam, they do not represent Islam.

So all Americans are bastards because Bush is killing innocents left right and centre?

Germans are all Nazis because Hitler Killed as many people

Oh no, you know exactly where to go and get your lies and try and turn them into facts.

I don't care what you think, feel, or say, you can fool others not me.

Take care of yourself

[mephibosheth]

Lol you really are full of hatred


Oh pleeeease. Go ahead and interpret things however you like, friend.



all across Europe, or the West if you prefer, some parts of Asia, conversions are in a larger scales, wait for data to drop from the sky


Sure. Where exactly?

The fact is that Muslims like to say that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, but they use statistics that are 30 years old to defend their claim. And then, when we look at the real numbers that make any difference, the numbers of conversion, Christianity comes out as growing faster than Islam. But Islam's numbers are inflated by birth rates, which again, are essentially meaningless for the religion (except for the fact that leaving Islam is a death sentence).



You are talking from hate not facts, you use lies to spread false information.


What lies?

Did Mohammed not receive the Quraan from an angel?




But don't come here and bash my religion just so you get some attention, don't insult me or my religion, I am not insulting you and whatever things you believe in.


Muslims apparently can't take any criticism of their belief. But I'm an equal opportunity critic. I laugh at Christianity too, because its so ridiculous. In fact, I've said before that if Christians were rational, they'd become Muslims. But if Muslims were rational, they'd become Buddhists.

LOL, all you're doing is calling me hateful, rather than dispelling my apparent misconceptions. That suggests that you have no answer for these things.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion#cite_not e-17

Data for Islam reveal that the growing number of Muslims is due primarily to immigration (in the West) and higher birth rates (worldwide).

In 2006, countries with a Muslim majority had an average population growth rate of 1.8% per year (when weighted by percentage Muslim and population size). This compares with a world population growth rate of 1.12% per year.

By real growth in terms of new adherents per period Islam was classified as the second fastest growing religion in the world behind Christianity.

According to the "Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life"
“ Islam is already the fastest-growing religion in Europe. Driven by immigration and high birthrates, the number of Muslims on the continent has tripled in the last 30 years. Most demographers forecast a similar or even higher rate of growth in the coming decades. ”

According to the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, the World Christian Database as of 2007 estimated that the fastest growing of the five largest religions in the world by percentage to be Islam (1.84%). High birth rates were cited as the reason for the growth. The same study concluded that in terms of real growth Islam was not the fastest growing religion.

There is considerable difficulty in ascertaining the number of Muslims and as a result most measurements are inflated. The issue of apostasy in Islam is a major factor in this discrepancy. Countries such as Islamic Republic of Pakistan, The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, Islamic Republic of Iran, Saudi Arabia and Algeria disallow legal recognition of non-Islamic religions, Islamic apostates and or impose the death penalty as a punishment for apostasy.

[adbasque]

No i am not joking, i being reading about jihad since 622AD to today and is not pretty.

Religious hate,murder, and enslavement 100 mio+ of Infidel woman/girls for sexual plesure, they also enslave children male or female and some times adullt man if not they just murdered them. religion of peace bullshit.

I see how muslims men look on western woman and girls, they called them whores, but they want them as slaves. Small 8 year boys saying to Infidel children your mother is a whore and most raped is being done muslim males some 85%.

Not to add the Saudi Arabian Royal Familiy abuse of beautiful girls /women, fashion models are also kidnaped they do also to pretty minor boys and girls. Most are pretty white girls and women with blue eyes and blond are kidnapped in western countries on the street,invited into private party druged,contaced on the street where they are ask if they want go expensive party but they can`t tell anyone because there will be powerfull people there, or fake model agency ads ín the newpapers or the net for modeling jobs or flim project that is a lie, places into an aircraft and sent to Saudi Arabian "where they disappears into their palaces and never hear from again, where they are hold as sex slaves "in harems" or not and if they not do not volunted they are beating for days, if the the girls try to run away brought back by the religious police if they become tired of girls they will be sold and resold to others and when when they become incapable they are thrown into the desert.

Arab jews or not very few know that the Saudi Arabian Royal Family is not muslim. I first hear that some years ago from synergy777, i was not sure it was true.

Yes every Muslim out there would tell you that the royal family are not Muslims, just like Kadafi in Lybia is not Muslim, I know what they do here and in major European cities, USA etc.. they spend millions, they pay for homosexuals to join them in their rooms, they buy models, young girls, every muslim knows that.

It's not because his name is Fahd or whatever it means he is a Muslim, as a matter of fact the only God they believe is Gold, and power.

You've been reading I can see what you have been reading, no different than the one who says I saw it on BBC, on Sky, on Fox News, or read it on the back of a match box.

Believe everything you read, and believe everything you see, and you'll go far.

If you are convinced on what you saw, why are you telling me this?
Good for you

Keep reading

[adbasque]

So, if the Saudis are woefully misrepresenting Islam to the world, why aren't terrorists blowing them sky high? Where's the outrage of the 'Muslims world' against the Saudis? Are there demonstrations against this 'corrupt non-muslim' state that is just using Islam to further its own greedy ends? Why aren't Muslims burning Saudi flags?

Shouldn't these 'traitors' be brought to swift Islamic justice?

:confused:

When all the other leaders are brought to justice, then they will bring them to justice, are naive or pretending to be?

Did anyone bring Bush to justice?
Did anyone bring Mugabe to Justice?
Did anyone bring Augusto Pinochet to justice?
Did anyone bring Fidel Castro to Jusitce?
Did anyone bring chinese leaders to Justice?
Did anyone bring Russian leaders to Justice?

I have told you there's no such thing as an Islamic nation, the people are muslims, but no government is Muslim, but obviously you don't read you only read what you like.

You see what I mean, you use double standard, the whole world is corrupt, and if you haven't understood this you never will

Anyway I am closing this subject, you can carry on without me.

[adbasque]

Oh pleeeease. Go ahead and interpret things however you like, friend.


I am not interpreting anything, I am only observing, if you care to dig into Islam and the Quoran you will find the answers you're looking for.



Sure. Where exactly?

The fact is that Muslims like to say that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, but they use statistics that are 30 years old to defend their claim. And then, when we look at the real numbers that make any difference, the numbers of conversion, Christianity comes out as growing faster than Islam. But Islam's numbers are inflated by birth rates, which again, are essentially meaningless for the religion (except for the fact that leaving Islam is a death sentence).

It's not the muslims whom are claiming that Islam is fast growing, that's just it.

It was by the none Muslims that are proving that it is the fast growing religion in the world of all times.




What lies?

Did Mohammed not receive the Quraan from an angel?





Muslims apparently can't take any criticism of their belief. But I'm an equal opportunity critic. I laugh at Christianity too, because its so ridiculous. In fact, I've said before that if Christians were rational, they'd become Muslims. But if Muslims were rational, they'd become Buddhists.

LOL, all you're doing is calling me hateful, rather than dispelling my apparent misconceptions. That suggests that you have no answer for these things.

What do you think faith is?
Yes Mohamed received a Quoran Surat by Surat from Allah Via Jibril or Gabriel.
If you are an Atheist why are wasting your time with me and Islam and other religions?
You are so sure that you have the truth, then why go on forums and criticise people's belief?

You are obviously very enlightened and you know it all,

what it is that is antagonising you about people who have faith?

I don't come to you and tell you, hey you are an atheist why are you atheist etc..
why does it bother you so much that people do believe in God?

And you are asking me to enlighten you, that proves you have absolutely no idea what there is to say, do you think I can explain complex things in few paragraphs or sentences?

People sometimes talk for days to just understand a fraction of an issue, even if I wanted to it will be impossible for me, to explain everything here in writing.

When I said you have no idea the more I talk to you the more I am convinced that you don't know much about Islam, and I am afraid the very little you know, you heard it from somewhere else, without hearing the rest.

Debates like these, are not debated online or a forum, they are debated in a real life.

To be honest it's not that I don't have any answers, I don't want to spend time giving answers,I have done so in the past, not anymore.

If you want answers I am going to give you one answer, the answer is
the questions that you have raised there, have answers but it's for you to find them.

If you care to find them, I don't need to be convinced, I know what I know, you are the one looking for answers, so I suggest you get cracking.

The answers I can assure are there, but becareful where you get your information from.
This a rule number one for any decent Muslim, always check, double check, triple check your sources, and never ever take anybody's word for it.

These are the basic teachings of Islam

like most people for example will fall for these fake websites, we know that have been created deliberately by the Elite, Zionists.

Beware of the following websites:
1. www.answering-islam.org
2. www.aboutislam.com
3. www.thequran.com
4. www.allahassurance.com
These sites have been developed by Jews.

For a newbie, it's very hard for her/him to know where to look for information, so if they stumble upon these fake websites, they can be mislead very easily.

That's why I am tired of replying to these subjects, I get very tired the information is available, if anyone really wants to learn anything, they can.

So, if you want me to explain about Sharia or Islamic rules, you came to the wrong place, it cannot be explained in few words or even few books.

One last thing, Islam is not just a religion, it's whole way of life, it's a system on it's own.

It's like someone comes up to me, and ask me to prove that God exist, why should I prove anything to them, why not them proving to me that God doesn't exist??

I converted to Islam about 22 years ago, I did not convert because I was searching, I knew there was a supreme force out there, but the fatal mistakes most people make is they generalise all the time.

They look up one religion and if they don't find what they like init, they put all other religions in the same basket.
And they do the same for everything else in their lives.

I actually converted to Islam with a scientific evidence, and nothing will shake it from me.

I don't believe in God anymore I know that God exists, because when you say I believe it means there's a doubt, which in my case there isn't one!

This brings us to the closure of this topic, I have to stop my fingers are hurting.

Good luck everyone

[mephibosheth]

More facts on the growth of religions worldwide: A summary:


http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3835


Over 2000-2005 Islam has 1.84% growth rate, due to the fact that "[t]he world’s largest Muslim populations are in fast-growing countries such as Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, India, Egypt, and Iran. Islam also happens to be the fastest growing religion in Europe, where [there has been] an influx of Muslim immigrants from North Africa, Turkey, and South Asia."

Have a gander at this table, which projects numbers into 2050:

http://www.gordonconwell.edu/ockenga/globalchristianity/gd/wct-1-2.pdf

By 2050, if rates continue as is, there could be 3 billion Christians and 2.2 billion Muslims worldwide. (Numbers of ACTUAL practioners of each religion is estimated to be 5-10 ;) .)


Here's a critical review of the WCD estimates:

http://www.princeton.edu/~bhsu/Hsu2008.pdf

Basically, testing it against several other statistics, it suggests that the WCD is generally reliable, although it does have some weaknesses, including a higher estimate for percent Christian than warrented and the possible misrepresenting of Muslim numbers through inconsistent application of membership critieria.



An interesting view can be found on Worldmapper (http://www.worldmapper.org/index.html), which shows each region of the world, and its relative religious population, as a distortion on a world map. Eg, a country with high Christian pop will look 'bloated' compared to one with a low Christian pop. For instance:

Christian
http://www.worldmapper.org/images/largepng/554.png

Muslim
http://www.worldmapper.org/images/largepng/564.png

8)

[adbasque]

You expect me to believe these ridiculous so called facts?
the same goes with the global warming, when they show you all the data, we all know it's a false data.

Islam is growing world wide in the 4 corners of the world, it's not because of immigration, I am not an immigrant, and I have seen it in my entourage, and wherever I travel, I get exactly the same result.

France, Germany, Holland, Suitzerland, Scandinavian countries,
In germany I have met German Scientists and Police officers in the mosque.

they were Germans not Turkish or any other origin.

People I know they all caucasians, westners, you really believe what you read don't you? lol

The BBC, Channel 4, Channel 5 and Sky one all reported the programmes where a great number of white caucasian converted to Islam.

And I see it everytime I go to the mosque or any gatherings, but I am not saying it because it was on the BBC, or any of the main stream media, I know it from reality.

And from word of mouth of people who I know personally converted either from Judaism, Christianity, or even Atheism, to Islam, now bringing me things like these, it's a joke man.

Come on you know better, and you call yourself an enlightened?
it's clear why they are saying this, to stir hatred beware of immigration, beware of Islam is going to take over your country, scaremonger and you haven't dug yet?

You disappointed me with this lol :D
the same thing they did with the charts they printed on super computers to scare people about the global warming lol

Anyway, I hope you'll get over it
I'll leave you in peace now :)

[mephibosheth]

It's not the muslims whom are claiming that Islam is fast growing, that's just it.

It was by the none Muslims that are proving that it is the fast growing religion in the world of all times.


No, its Muslims that are misrepresenting the data. See the above post.



What do you think faith is?
Yes Mohamed received a Quoran Surat by Surat from Allah Via Jibril or Gabriel.
If you are an Atheist why are wasting your time with me and Islam and other religions?
You are so sure that you have the truth, then why go on forums and criticise people's belief?

You are obviously very enlightened and you know it all,

what it is that is antagonising you about people who have faith?


I don't come to you and tell you, hey you are an atheist why are you atheist etc..
why does it bother you so much that people do believe in God?


I have my own faith, and suits me fine. Who said I didn't have faith or that I was an atheist?

Look, Muslims here have made the claim that Islam is a 'rational' religion. I simply countered that I don't see any logic or reason in the leap of faith it takes to believe that the foundation of this tradition was delivered to one man by an angel in a cave.

what sounds more reasonable:

'I realized the truth (through insight or sheer intellectual effort, research), and here are the proofs--x,y,z--that you too can test and demonstrate to realize the truth yourself.'

or

'An angel told me the truth, and I believe him! And you better believe him too, or else!!'

Its the chain of custody that's a little suspect here. We have fourth-hand testimony about what the Quraan says. Not first hand from the mouth of God, not second hand from an agent of God (if we buy that), not third-hand from a person to whom an agent of God spoke, but fourth-hand from a bunch of different people to whom the person to whom an agent of God supposedly spoke, spoke.

Again, how's that reasonable? To put your faith in human beings and their nonsense? Without any corroborating evidence?




When I said you have no idea the more I talk to you the more I am convinced that you don't know much about Islam, and I am afraid the very little you know, you heard it from somewhere else, without hearing the rest.


I don't know much about Islam. I never claimed to. Everything I know I learn from Muslims who write about Islam online, or from reading the Quraan. So again, where are these 'lies' I apparently am typing?



Beware of the following websites:
1. www.answering-islam.org
2. www.aboutislam.com
3. www.thequran.com
4. www.allahassurance.com
These sites have been developed by Jews.


No doubt, those damn jews at it again!! LOL. Oddly, I don't think I've used any of those sites for reference...




So, if you want me to explain about Sharia or Islamic rules, you came to the wrong place, it cannot be explained in few words or even few books.


Right. And God couldn't even be bothered to explain it to humankind in the first place. He instead felt it reasonble to leave the interpretation of such matters to the scholars that would come later, who would try to use the Quraan as a basis to settle disputes and make law.

Its funny how 'God's law' is so incomplete. If the Quraan is so perfect, then all Muslims should be Quraanites. But no, other Muslims dis such believers and insist on the sunna and hadiths.

Its also funny how God--or Jibrel--couldn't get it right and had to keep abbrogating rules over time. Does that sound like an omniscient power to you? Someone who couldn't foresee that their own rule would need to be abbrogated, and hence, to make a more perfect rule at the outset? Sounds more like someone making stuff up as they go along.



I actually converted to Islam with a scientific evidence, and nothing will shake it from me.


As a point of interest, not to antagonise, what was the scientific evidence that reverted you?

8)

[mephibosheth]

You expect me to believe these ridiculous so called facts?


Well, I don't see any counter-evidence. Where are the Muslim censuses? You didn't read all the info I posted, of course. The WCD is the most comprehensive census in existence right now, and it has its flaws.

You can jump up and down all you like about how whitey is reverting to Islam en masse, but that ancedotal evidence isn't worth much. About as much as a BBC report, I reckon.



Come on you know better, and you call yourself an enlightened?


Not me. If I made THAT claim, you'd know I was full of shit.




it's clear why they are saying this, to stir hatred beware of immigration


Or, it could be true.


8)

[mephibosheth]

you really believe what you read don't you? lol


Yes...except the Quraan, the hadiths, the OT, and the Acts of the Apostles. I did believe first and second John, but not third John--that's just nonsense. ;)

:D

[dreamweaver]

10.53pm:


This brings us to the closure of this topic


at 11.59pm he starts posting again in this "closed" topic! :D

Does Islam give you Alzheimer's? ;)

[14april2000]

Lol coming from a Sik or a Hindu it wouldn't surprise me at all, if you only cared to look beyond who really was behind the division of your people :) but obviously too thick to see it.

you can't even see the obvious lol and you call yourself aware?
all you are carrying right now is hatred towards your people you are all Indians.

You were given three choices?
why would an Islamic Imperealist would want you to become a Hindu?
and you say your religion is a Sik, where did it come from?
didn't it come from Islam and Hinduims?

I have to laugh, you are not making no sense whatsoever, lol
some people are so full of hatred they can't even get their facts together.

The real enemy is hidden stiring you one against another, and you think you are ready to takle the illuminatis, people like don't care about what's going on, all you care about is to find forums where you can spill your venom at others.

Listen I am not responding to these sort of allegations anymore, you want someone to argue with go and find them somewhere else.

End of story
btw, whether you like it or not Islam is the fast growing Religion in the world.

More and more people are discovering it's real inner beauty and Islam is a religion of peace and love, it doesn't matter what you think of it.

Why do you think it's been attacked from every angle, but yet it still expanding and growing and there's nothing you or anyone can do about it :)

Have a great day

adbasque why díd you sign to this forum?

But who created and run Islam The vatican wanted to take over Jerusalem, it was and is a hidden vatican military force. Today it is run Jesuit order. If they wanted they cot removed any islamic leader they are just Temporal Coadjutor of the Jesuit Order.

[14april2000]

So, if the Saudis are woefully misrepresenting Islam to the world, why aren't terrorists blowing them sky high? Where's the outrage of the 'Muslims world' against the Saudis? Are there demonstrations against this 'corrupt non-muslim' state that is just using Islam to further its own greedy ends? Why aren't Muslims burning Saudi flags?

Shouldn't these 'traitors' be brought to swift Islamic justice?

:confused:



Because every time an Empire give a country independence the changes is really only on the surface. "form overt to covert control"

It was The British Empire that Setup The Saudi Royal family in 1932.They toll that they would not touch them as long as the basic for there state was Wahhabism. But if they want they can remove any islamic leader. To add this Brittan and British Empire has being run by Jesuit order since 1795.

Globalists Created Wahhabi Terrorism
to Destroy Islam and Justify a Global State
by David Livingstone

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/livingstone.htm

The 'House' of Saud — no more Islamic than Billy Graham

Following the dictates of Hegelian dialectic, the Globalists have created two antagonizing forces, the "Liberal-Democratic" West, against Terrorism, or "political Islam", to force us into the acceptance of their final alternative, a New World Order.

The West and Islam have had a long era of compatibility, but this history has been denied to foster the myth of a "Clash of Civilizations". In order to inflame the sentiments of the West against Islam, our attention has been focused on the specter of fanatical Wahhabism, and more specifically, its most notorious exponent, Osama bin Laden.

However, as outlined in an excellent article by Peter Goodgame,
The Globalists and the Islamists (http://www.redmoonrising.com/Ikhwan/Clash.htm), the Globalists have had a hand in shaping and financing all the terrorist organizations of the twentieth century, including the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt, Hamas of Palestine and the Afghan Mujahideen. But the history of their duplicity dates farther back still, to the 18th Century, when British Freemasons created the Wahhabi sect of Saudi Arabia itself, to further their imperialistic objectives.

That a British spy by the name of Hempher was responsible for shaping of the extreme tenets of Wahhabism was mentioned in a Turkish work,
Mir'at al-Haramain (http://www.sufi.it/Islam/wahlast.htm), by Ayyub Sabri Pasha between 1933-1938. British policy in its colonies often involved the creation of deviant sects, in order to Divide and Conquer, as was the case with the Ahmadiyya (http://www.bartleby.com/65/ah/Ahmadiyy.html) sect of Islam in India in the nineteenth century.

The details of this conspiracy are outlined in a little known document by the name of The Memoirs of Mr. Hempher (http://asmar.perso.ch/wahhabies/htm/spy1.htm) published in series (episodes) in the German paper Spiegel, and later in a prominent French paper. A Lebanese doctor translated the document to the Arabic language and from there on it was translated to English and other languages.

The document is a first-hand account by Hempher of his mission for his government, which sent him to the Middle East to discover ways to undermine the Ottoman Empire. Among the vices the British were to promote were racism and nationalism, alcohol, gambling, fornication and tempting Muslim women to uncover themselves.

But most important was the strategy to "insert heresies into Muslims' creedal tenets and then criticize Islam for being a religion of terror." To this purpose, Hempher located a particularly corrupt individual by the name of Mohammed Ibn Adbul Wahhab.

To understand the brand of fanaticism that Wahhabism inculcated, it is first necessary to recognize that Islam called upon all Muslims, regardless of their race or nationality, to see themselves as brothers in faith. The killing of another Muslim was strictly forbidden.

However, as part of their strategy of Divide and Conquer, the British hoped to pit the Arab Muslims against their Turkish brothers. The only way to do so was to find a loophole in Islamic law whereby the Arabs could declare the Turks as apostates.

Abdul Wahhab was the instrument by which the British were able to insinuate this vile idea into the Muslims of the Arabian Peninsula. Basically, Wahhab contrived the idea that, simply by the trivial act of offering prayers to saints, their Turkish brethren had forfeited their faith, and therefore, that it was permitted to kill all who refused to adhere to his reforms, and to enslave their women and children. But that included the entire Muslim world, except for his small misguided band of followers.

But the Wahabbi movement was insignificant without the allegiance of the Saudi family, who, despite claims otherwise,

were descended from Jewish merchants from Iraq (http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/bridge/632/history.html). Orthodox jurists of the time branded the Wahhabis as heretics and condemned their fanaticism and intolerance. Nevertheless, the Wahhabis then demonstrated their contempt for their pretended faith by indiscriminately slaughtering Muslims and non-Muslims alike. The Wahhabis then set about destroying all the holy tombs and burial grounds. They stole the Prophet's treasure, which included holy books, works of art and innumerable priceless gifts sent to the city during the previous thousand years. The leather and gilt bindings of the Islamic holy books they had destroyed were used to make sandals for the Wahhabi criminals.

The Ottoman Sultan brought an end to the first Wahhabi rebellion in 1818, but the sect revived under the leadership of the Saudi Faysal I. The movement was then somewhat restored until once again destroyed at the end of the nineteenth century.

After WWI, the former regions of the Ottoman Empire were divided into varying puppets regimes. For aiding to undermine the Ottoman authority in the region, Ibn Saud was duly rewarded with the creation of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in 1932. One year later, in 1933, the Saudis granted oil concessions to California Arabian Standard Oil Company (Casoc), affiliate of Standard Oil of California (Socal, today's Chevron), headed by Rothschild agent, and chief among [US] Illuminati families, Rockefeller. Since that time, Saudi Arabia has been the most important ally to the West in the Middle East, not only providing ready access to its plentiful oil reserves, but also in tempering Arab aggression against Israel. Due to the evident hypocrisy of the regime, it has been necessary to suppress the ensuing dissent with brutality. Another important aspect has been preventing scholars from speaking of "politics", that is, to criticize the regime.



In The Two Faces of Islam (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385506929/103-8793051-3851023?v=glance), Stephen Schwartz writes, "Their tastes led them to taverns, casinos, brothels ... They bought fleets of automobiles, private jets, and yachts the size of warships. They invested in valuable Western art they did not understand or like and which often offended the sensitivities of Wahhabi clerics. They spent as they wished, becoming patrons of international sexual enslavement and the exploitation of children."

The result has been that, in order to nonetheless appear to be espousing Islam, the Saudi regime and its puppet scholars have evolved a version of Islam that emphasizes ceremonial details of the religion, at the expense of helping to understand broader political realities. Their manner has encouraged a literal interpretation of Islamic law, permitting the likes of bin Laden to exploit the Koran to justify the killing of innocents.

Ultimately, the profusion of Rothschild financed petro-dollars in the coffers of the Saudi family has made it possible for them to propagandize their bastardized version of Islam to other parts of the world, most notably to America, where they purportedly subsidize up to 80 percent of the mosques in the country, a version of Islam that substitutes political awareness for dogmatic insistence on ritualistic fanaticism.

In 1999 King Fahd of Saudi Arabia attended the Bilderberg meeting, presumably to discuss his role in furthering the interests of world government, along with other such luminaries as Yasser Arafat and the Pope. Evidently, the Saudi family are part of the deceptive ploys of the Illuminati network. Their complicity in the accumulation of petro-dollars has gone into the financing of global terrorism, from Afghanistan to Bosnia, merely for the purpose of fomenting the necessary animosity of the world against Islam.

See also David Livingstone's Reply to Criticism. (http://www.serendipity.li/wot/livingstone_reply.htm)




Note added by Peter Meyer, 2005-02-13 CE: There are some who vigorously dispute the author's statement in the article above (http://www.serendipity.li/wot/livingstone.htm#Ahmadiyya)that the Ahmadiyya sect of Islam was created by the British (in order to divide and conquer). The Ahmadiyya Movement today has many members, mostly in Pakistan, but many also in the UK, some in Israel and some in Indonesia. One Ahmadi wrote to say that David Livingstone's allegation is refuted by the author of the article Ahmadiyyat and the British. (http://www.alislam.org/books/truth/british.html) As with all controversial issues discussed or mentioned on this website the interested reader must make the effort to inform himself so as to come to a sound conclusion. A web search on "Mirza Ghulam Ahmad" or "Ahmadiyya Movement" will bring up plenty of websites, pro- and anti-. We note, however, the interesting comment at

Qadiyanism: A Brief Survey that (http://www.iiie.net/Brochures/Brochure-27.html) "Qadiyanis ... established good liaison with the State of Israel immediately after its establishment and Israel gave them full protection" (whatever that means). On this matter, see the contradictory claims of Ahmadis in Israel (http://alhafeez.org/rashid/kababeer.htm)

and Ahmadis and the State of Israel (http://www.alislam.org/books/truth/israel.html). Clearly the disputes involving the Ahmadis are complex. These pro- and anti-Ahmadiyya disputes actually remind one of the original purpose of Wahhabi'ism: to sow discord among Muslims and to bring Islam into disrepute. Same old "divide and conquer" strategy in a new guise? Perhaps, though in this case it is unclear who exactly is fomenting the discord.

Risto Karajkov: Islam: The Young and the Old (http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?focus=analys&a=2&aid=7746&acat=3)— Wahhabi infiltration of the Balkans





Dear Brethren and Friends,

The terrorist network

http://www.vaticanassassins.org/terrorist_network.htm

The map below illustrates the Black Pope's Islamic Terrorist Network in America. The Luciferian Jesuit Superior General, via his several personal Assistants and eighty-five worldwide Provincials, controls "the Invisible Empire" of occult, high-level, Scottish Rite and Grand Orient Luciferian Freemasonry. (White) Scottish Rite, (Black) Prince Hall Rite and Grand Orient Freemasonry control all Islamic leaders not only in America (including FBI informer, "Nation of Islam" spokesman, the Jew-hating, White/Black race war advocate and hostile mulatto, Louis Farrakhan) throughout the entire Middle East. The evil "Invisible Empire" of Luciferian Freemasonry especially controls the Saud Dynasty administering Jesuit Superior General Peter-Hans Kolvenbach's OPEC, controlled by his oil bonanza, Saudi Arabia. The Masonic Saud Dynasty is directed in its policies by the Order's New York City-based Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). Every American Secretary of State has been a member of, or is controlled by, the CFR since the Council's inception in 1921, including mulattos Condoleezza Rice and 33rd Degree Freemason Colin L. Powell.

The Jesuits created the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in 1932 using their fanatical, Islamic cult known as "Wahhabi Islam." Wahhabi Islam, "the Sword of the Church" intended to be used against apostate, White Protestant, Western Civilization, was a creation of the Society of Jesus using certain Papal Knights controlling the once Protestant British Empire. With the Empire having been governed by the Order through Freemasonry for the last two hundred years, Wahhabi Islam was fortified during the reign of that wicked, Jesuit-controlled murderer of the Irish people, Queen Victoria of England. British SIS agent, English noble and Knight of Malta, Sir John Philby, feigned himself to be a Wahhabi among the Arabs, thereby facilitating the enthronement of Masonic Ibn Saud as the first king of Saudi Arabia. Both Freemasons Winston Churchill and, yes, Benito Mussolini, whose confessor was a powerful Italian Jesuit and the Secretary of the Company, Pietro Tacchi-Venturi, also aided in the establishment of the Masonic Islamic Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. "Allied" Britain and "Axis" Italy worked together, as they would during Jesuit-trained, Jesuit-favored and Jesuit-advised, Pope Pius XII's World War II, the grand finale of the Black Pope's Second Thirty Years' War (1914-1945).

Saudi Arabia, because of its CFR-created, cartel-capitalist oil monopoly, finances the Black Pope's International Terrorist Network; that Network is overseen by the "Father General's" SS/Central Intelligence Agency, which in turn has been consistently directed by CFR affiliates since its inception, they being either oathbound Knights of Malta, 33rd Degree Freemasons or members of Yale's Satanic Brotherhood known as "Skull and Bones." The CIA is presently directed by CFR-member and Skull and Bonesman, Porter J. Goss. Goss now answers to another CFR-member tied to British Intelligence through his wife; he is another "brother Skull and Bonesman," John D. Negroponte, the new National Intelligence Tzar (our Nazi Heinrich Himmler or Soviet Lavrenti Beria), appointed by another brother "Bonesman," President George W. Bush. It is this evil, CFR-controlled, Luciferian World System overseen by the Black Pope, for the ultimate benefit of the White Pope, through which Satan controls both sides of our present Anglo-American-led "War on Terror."

We believe the Jesuit Order, through its control of the Office of Immigration, has cautiously and cunningly erected its Islamic Terrorist Network in America. One of its purposes is to create anarchy through carefully calculated "terrorist attacks." There are strong indications that our coming desolations will include several detonations of "dirty," highly radioactive, atomic devices now in place throughout the Black Pope's "Holy Roman" Fourteenth Amendment American Empire. The Jesuit Theater has told us as much with its movies, True Lies and The Sum of All Fear. Certain American Generals, hosted by the New York Press Club in 2004, believe that from five to ten devices will be detonated simultaneously, killing hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of Americans. The Jesuits will blame their Masonic Islamic Middle Eastern leaders, men like "the former" Bush family business partner and "former" CIA operative, Osama Bin Laden. These unprecedented "terrorist attacks" will justify the suspension of the Constitution, the decree of martial law, the committing of all domestic police powers into the hands of Michael Chertoff's Office of Homeland "Romeland" Security locking down the nation while implementing gun confiscation. Meanwhile the Order's CFR-controlled Congress will ram a national Draft down our throats. We deceived Americans will be all too willing to aggressively deploy and kill the Moslem peoples and destroy their Mosques in Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem, never knowing that we have been set-up to do the killing for the Society of Jesus in accordance with its evil Council of Trent.

As you examine the map below, notice the cities in which the "Islamic Terrorists" maintain a strong presence are also cities that are completely in the hands of the Jesuits. Seattle, San Francisco, Santa Clara, Los Angeles, Detroit, Chicago, Boston, New York City and Washington, D.C., all host Jesuit Universities, they being in fact military fortresses. Within the walls of the Order's military staging bases, operating under the guise of "institutions for higher learning," the Black Pope's North American Jesuit Assistant, in cooperation with his ten American Jesuit Provincials and Jesuit University heads, can direct his stratagems and flanking maneuvers as events begin to unfold and favorable opportunities present themselves.

In the meantime, we AV1611 Bible-believing White Anglo-Saxon Protestant and Baptist-Calvinist Americans must begin to take the lead in calling for repentance and belief on the risen Son of God of the New Testament, the Lord Jesus Christ. Upon repenting from our personal and national sins, and humbly calling upon our Heavenly Father to sovereignly intervene for us, we then must begin to preach political secession from this Jesuit-controlled Fourteenth Amendment American Empire.

Politically, our sovereign Nation-State is everything; the oppressive, thieving, murderous, taxing, lawless, Constitution-hating, occult Fourteenth Amendment American Empire is nothing. Every State must gather in Sovereign Convention and pass Ordinances of Secession, thereby cutting off the Company's absolute temporal/political power; we must sever all spiritual and temporal ties with Washington, D.C., that city rightfully named "Rome on the Potomac." As did the Protestant Netherlands when they seceded from Jesuit-controlled Spain, as did the Protestant American Colonies when they seceded from Jesuit-controlled England, and as did the Protestant Southern Confederate States of America when they seceded from the Jesuit-controlled, Radical Red Republican Party having usurped the Constitutional government of Protestant America, we must physically prepare to repel invasions from other nations under the power of the Black Pope, and to mentally prepare to punish high treason committed by the Order's oath-bound agents ruling that diabolical Trojan Horse from within--the Masonic Islamic Terrorist Network! May we seriously seek the Lord in our prayers; may we separate ourselves from the sin that so easily besets us; may we acquit ourselves as men and begin to do our duty before the day is spent and the night is at hand.

Brethren, we have no time to lose!

Sincerely in Faith,

Brother Eric

http://www.vaticanassassins.org/Terrorist_map.gif

DEYO NOTE: Terrorists are a very real and growing threat in America and to American interests around the world. It should be assumed these are not the only cell locations within the US and that they are subject to change.

[14april2000]

Yes every Muslim out there would tell you that the royal family are not Muslims, just like Kadafi in Lybia is not Muslim, I know what they do here and in major European cities, USA etc.. they spend millions, they pay for homosexuals to join them in their rooms, they buy models, young girls, every muslim knows that.

It's not because his name is Fahd or whatever it means he is a Muslim, as a matter of fact the only God they believe is Gold, and power.

You've been reading I can see what you have been reading, no different than the one who says I saw it on BBC, on Sky, on Fox News, or read it on the back of a match box.

Believe everything you read, and believe everything you see, and you'll go far.


If you are convinced on what you saw, why are you telling me this?
Good for you

Keep reading

But adbasque you fotgot this about enslavement of Infidel woman/girls for there harems sexual plesure. It started after the first battle Mohammed won.

Below there is pictures of White slave auctions, white woman and girls that is about to be sold as sex slaves to there harems.

This site belowe is good expect they got wrong it with the 911/terrorism issue. But You can`t deny huge human suffering because Jihad since 620AD. http://www.historyofjihad.org/ if you do i guess we know what kind of muslim you are.

http://www.haremgirlreview.com/images/branding_jewish_slaves.jpg
http://www.eastwestdocumentary.com/images/page/harem.jpg
http://www.haremgirlreview.com/images/white_slave.jpg
http://dappledthings.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/marriage.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/Ernest_Normand_White_Slave.jpg/402px-Ernest_Normand_White_Slave.jpg
http://www.themosleminstitute.com/safiya.jpg
http://www.haremgirlreview.com/images/new_slave.jpg
http://www.haremgirlreview.com/images/arabian_slave_auction.jpg

[14april2000]

Oh pleeeease. Go ahead and interpret things however you like, friend.




Sure. Where exactly?

The fact is that Muslims like to say that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, but they use statistics that are 30 years old to defend their claim. And then, when we look at the real numbers that make any difference, the numbers of conversion, Christianity comes out as growing faster than Islam. But Islam's numbers are inflated by birth rates, which again, are essentially meaningless for the religion (except for the fact that leaving Islam is a death sentence).




What lies?

Did Mohammed not receive the Quraan from an angel?





Muslims apparently can't take any criticism of their belief. But I'm an equal opportunity critic. I laugh at Christianity too, because its so ridiculous. In fact, I've said before that if Christians were rational, they'd become Muslims. But if Muslims were rational, they'd become Buddhists.

LOL, all you're doing is calling me hateful, rather than dispelling my apparent misconceptions. That suggests that you have no answer for these things.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[element]

Artwork and wild fantasies of artists during imperialistic times. :rolleyes:

[14april2000]

Artwork and wild fantasies of artists during imperialistic times. :rolleyes:

You have know idea how many Infidel woman/girls they enslaved to there Harems. Yes it is artwork but also true, the muslims are obsessed with Infidel woman/girls special white woman/girls. Most of pictures are from link below.

Harem Girl, a harem girl's journal

http://www.haremgirlreview.com/index.htm

[eternal_spirit]

Some good info there April about slaves etc. Muslims were taking white slaves from Europe and people from Africa long before the American slave trade.

But some bad info seems to be blaming the British too much.

See Islam has been beheading, chopping off hands genitally mutilating, invading and killing none Muslims countrys (especially those who won't convert to Islam) and all the other evils for along time, this has nothing to do with Catholicism and British influences.

Just one example of many is Egypt, 94% of the people are now Muslim.

The closest religion to Islam is Judaism (they have more in common than any others) Abraham is the father of both religions, they both circumcise as their covenant with their God.

Btw Mount Sinai is in Saudi that's were Moses got the Laws of Judaism from his God. Big clue.

Compare the Talmud to the Koran/Hadiths and Shariah.

Which is a shame because many of them are the same races and their religions are from the same sources, yet they still fight.
Besides can we stay on topic (Islam)

[sophia_h]

`

Thank you eternal_spirit


for bravely starting a tumultuous thread

IMV it was the shunning of the Feminine side of
DIVINITY that gave birth to MAN MADE religions
to enforce the split between men and women

Buddhism, Zorastrian, Mithraism, Jude, Christian,
Muslim, Scientology, and all RELIGIONS are from
the base of denigration of the FEMININE DIVINE

and all support male supremacy
each has been the latest outgrowth of the original
elevation of the male and defining downward of the
societal role of the female
biggest divide and conquer act TYRANNY has ever done


but as it is NOT our NATURAL state

there are eras of enlightenment when people,
male AND female and non gendered,

start realizing how this trick is hurting all humanity.

when this Spiritul progress starts up again TYRANNY
will do an all out propaganda and mindbendig campaign to sucker
the masses into the latest version of latest
MALE SUPERIORITY RELIGION

masses didnt buy Mithra or judiasm so christianity was created
by the Ultra orthodox PAUL of Tarsus who became St. Paul

now that jude and xianity arent holding the slaves any longer
ISLAM is getting the follywood PR treatment

Islam is the HOTTIE ROCK STAR RELIGION of the moment

if IT doesnt hold the masses in thrall the next step is dictatorship

we will have dictatorship anyway as democracy ALWAYS sinks into dictatorship

remember the KAGAN, king of the Khazras, said "we need a religion to
make the people feel guilty and servile". He chose judaism over xianity
and islam as it was the MOST guilt ridden, but all three were and are the
SAME.


WOMAN HATERS.


P A T R I A R C H Y.......... :eek:



.

[major seven]

eternal_spirit;794704]Mecca in Saudi Arabia is the holiest place in Islam the centre point and a Muslim's duty is to travel on a pilgrimage to Mecca.
The Saudi's live by the Koran/Hadiths/Shariah right? So they are true Muslims and following the laws of Alah/Mohammed and it's priesthood.

http://www.mckinneyia.org/images/Kabba_2.jpg[/QUOTE]

Hey ES
Cool picture!
So all those muslims down there think that Adam built the first alter there to Allah, because Mohammud said that
a 60 cubit tall Adam came down from heaven?
"Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall" (Bukahari Vol4, Book55, Number 543)
But apparently Adam was formerly even tall enough that he had his head in the clouds where the angels were.
But the angels got bummed out with Adam being in their space and asked Allah to make Adam shorter which He did and decided on 60 cubits?
Whats a cubit? Apparently it depends on the "dhirra" of Mohammuds time.
A cubit generally refers to the length of a forearm from elbow to index finger.
Based on typical Arabic "dhirra", Adam could have been as little as 114 feet high or even 157 feet high.
So the first man on earth was over 100 feet tall?
Now that brings up some interesting points of obsevation.
Obviously then, the first woman was of a similar size, Right?
And their offspring would of course follow suit.
So that ought to leave a whole lot of folks running around in the neighborhood of 100 feet tall, Right?
But then Mohammud said that
"People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation"

Now thats interesting since tall people today start around 6 feet or so.
So how many generations of REALLY TALL people did it take to drop say 10 feet from the original height?
Now take note that Bible chronology only gives us about 6000 years to work with here, Right?
Then there would have to be some generations of even shorter people, say around 60 feet, then maybe 40 feet then 20, then 10 feet.
Obviously, there should be some sort of eveidence to verify these enormous humans remains, Yes?
But of course there was Noah's Flood which might have made everything conveniently disappear too.
But yet, with so many super TALL people running around, one would expect some of their giant tools to show up.
Surely they must of had giant hammers and screwrivers and chordless drills and whatever? Not to mention the scale of their houses and cities.
Imagine a city inhabited by 100 foot tall people. Or even 50 foot tall people.
I got a cousin that is 6'8" and he has enough problems with regular sized doors.
Now you might be wondering what a guy like Adam might weigh.
Based on the volume of a 6 foot man at 200 pounds, what would Adam weigh, based on 60 cubits equalling 100 feet in height.
Math Quiz! Take a guess.
Now you might be wondering how many buckets of Kentucky Fried Chicken, and Mac Cheeseburgers would it take to maintain Adam and his family.
I don't know but I'm guessing they had several resaurants of each in their back yard going full bore 24/7.

Another point of interest might be;
How big was Adam's roll of toilet paper?

FM7

[adbasque]

Well all it takes is one of you to spill his poison and the rest will follow
pretending to be peace loving people, you are full really full of hatred, waiting for just a moment to unleash your full hatred.

You know what I could not care less, my only regret is that I only knew Islam about 22 years of my life I wish I embraced it way before that.

You people make me sick, before I became Muslim, I used to hear the Muslims saying that the westerners are racists, and hypocrites, I thought they were exagerating, now I can see why.

the worst thing is it's coming from uneducated people, have no knowledge whatsoever, provocation, and arrogant that's the usually the case,as they say a little knowledge is very dangerous.

Why are you so concerned by the Muslims?

I thought the idea was to fight the people who are taking the bread out of your mouths, Oh no those you can't fight them, because they are your true masters.

It's easy to pick on Muslims, that shows how immature and cowards you really are.

Go on carry on with your hatred and islamophobia, cause your true enemy the Rothschilds and their friends are screwing your lives on a daily baisis, and turning you into animals, all you need to do is look at how you are living, turn on your Tv to see what it became of you.

For decades everything you people do, and blame it on others, you hate people and blame it on Muslims, you wage wars and blame it on others, you like to conquer and blame it on others, for just some idiots that still don't know.


Muslims took people as slaves in war times, the Christian crusaders kill without mercy, women children, elderly, disabled, it's in the history books, I did not make it.

How many wars America and Britain waged on Nations since 1945? hein? more than 48 countries have been officially or unofficially invaded, when I say USA I mean Britain too because they are One.
how many died in this century alone?

How many slaves in India Britain made? how many countries it did conquer? still to this day?
that's more than 300 years now.

Oh no you're blind for these things, but if one muslims makes a mistake and sometimes they are not even real muslims, the whole of Muslim nation will suffer as result and not only one generation you tarnish everything about Islam and above, with a completely unfounded allegations, and you deliberately falsify just so you can spread lies.

The rothschilds don't have to work very hard you're doing it for them, you call yourselves free men? lol
Anyway I normally don't reply to idiotic comments like these.

Lol and not to mention the double standard, if you talk about a Jew, Christian, or Homosexual they'll eat alive, but when it's a Muslim, feel free to spread you poison far and wide.

Now I know what I needed to know.

[ie11]

Well all it takes is one of you to spill his poison and the rest will follow
pretending to be peace loving people, you are full really full of hatred, waiting for just a moment to unleash your full hatred.

You know what I could not care less, my only regret is that I only knew Islam about 22 years of my life I wish I embraced it way before that.

You people make me sick, before I became Muslim, I used to hear the Muslims saying that the westerners are racists, and hypocrites, I thought they were exagerating, now I can see why.

the worst thing is it's coming from uneducated people, have no knowledge whatsoever, provocation, and arrogant that's the usually the case,as they say a little knowledge is very dangerous.

Why are you so concerned by the Muslims?

I thought the idea was to fight the people who are taking the bread out of your mouths, Oh no those you can't fight them, because they are your true masters.

It's easy to pick on Muslims, that shows how immature and cowards you really are.

Go on carry on with your hatred and islamophobia, cause your true enemy the Rothschilds and their friends are screwing your lives on a daily baisis, and turning you into animals, all you need to do is look at how you are living, turn on your Tv to see what it became of you.

For decades everything you people do, and blame it on others, you hate people and blame it on Muslims, you wage wars and blame it on others, you like to conquer and blame it on others, for just some idiots that still don't know.


Muslims took people as slaves in war times, the Christian crusaders kill without mercy, women children, elderly, disabled, it's in the history books, I did not make it.

How many wars America and Britain waged on Nations since 1945? hein? more than 48 countries have been officially or unofficially invaded, when I say USA I mean Britain too because they are One.
how many died in this century alone?

How many slaves in India Britain made? how many countries it did conquer? still to this day?
that's more than 300 years now.

Oh no you're blind for these things, but if one muslims makes a mistake and sometimes they are not even real muslims, the whole of Muslim nation will suffer as result and not only one generation you tarnish everything about Islam and above, with a completely unfounded allegations, and you deliberately falsify just so you can spread lies.

The rothschilds don't have to work very hard you're doing it for them, you call yourselves free men? lol
Anyway I normally don't reply to idiotic comments like these.

Lol and not to mention the double standard, if you talk about a Jew, Christian, or Homosexual they'll eat alive, but when it's a Muslim, feel free to spread you poison far and wide.

Now I know what I needed to know.

adbasque

nice name. good post. well said. thank you. Jazakalahair.

And besides you people, when and while muslims did take slaves during war times , they treated the slaves with alot more rights then you lot ever gave to the blacks, indians, etc when you took them as slaves.

A slave in islam has fundemental rights which are described and protected by God himself and whoever transgresses those rights is not a muslim and/or has strayed from the right path and furthermore will not be wronged in the heareafter when he sees what he did.

for instance, in islam the meaning of slave (taken during battle) has no way not the same meaning as the meaning or image you all have of a slave (in the galleys, chained, fed crap, or not fed at all, beated and abused, etc etc) ... the rights they had and respect they had was enormous ...

you could not shout at a slave. you could not beat a slave. etc.



http://islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=307&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

A PARADIGM SHIFT

Slavery is a concept that existed since pre-recorded history. However the way it was practiced in the Islamic world differs greatly than how it was practiced in the rest of the world. Even in the more recent times, centuries after the introduction of Islam, the non-Muslims have practiced slavery in the most barbaric manner. The whole Trans-Atlantic nonsense that was practiced by the Americans is one of the worst forms of slavery man has witnessed. The slaves were not treated as humans and did not have any rights. This way was much similar to the form practiced before the advent of Islam in the Times of Ignorance (Ja'hilah). Islam indeed came as a blessing to all Mankind and it was seen that slaves were given rights, something which the rest of the world never gave them.

Treatment of Slaves

Apart from giving the slaves their rights, Islam also took it a step ahead and discouraged slavery from being practiced. It is seen in history that slaves were mistreated in the non-Islamic world. Not only were they verbally abused, they were physically abused as well. The master would overburden the slave and make them work all day. Slaves would wear torn and tattered clothes while the masters would dress with the finest threads available. When it would come to food, the slaves would get leftovers or if not, very little food which would certainly not include good quality food. Some would not even get meat or fruits which their masters ate. Prophet Muhammad (saw) with Divine Inspiration from Allah (swt) forbade such acts. Masters could not abuse their slaves and had to give them the same that they ate and wore.

Narated by Al-Ma'rur: At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names you still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.' " –

The introduction of Islam and with the application of Islam by Muslims, slavery had a new meaning altogether. It no longer meant that you have a beast under your control and hence you could abuse it, make it work like a donkey all day and at the end of the day give it crumbs to eat so that it stays alive. Islam made it clear to every follower that a human being who is a slave is yet the brother of a Muslim and the slave had their rights which is compulsory for a Muslim to fulfill. It taught that slaves and masters are equal in the sights of Allah (swt) and if a Muslim was given a brother under his command then he had to make sure that the brother was given the rights which Islam prescribed.

In another narration the importance of giving slaves education and teaching them good manners is stressed by Prophet Muhammad (saw):

Narrated Abu Burda's father: Allah's Apostle said "Three persons will have a double reward:

1. A Person from the people of the scriptures who believed in his prophet (Jesus or Moses) and then believed in the Prophet Muhammad (i .e. has embraced Islam).
2. A slave who discharges his duties to Allah and his master.
3. A master of a woman-slave who teaches her good manners and educates her in the best possible way (the religion) and manumits her and then marries her." –

Here it is seen that not only education has been given importance but slavery is also discouraged. It is well known that a person belonging to the People of the Book would receive a double reward for accepting Islam. Similarly the same double reward is offered to a person who would free his woman-slave and marry her after giving her education and teaching her good manners. This way slavery is discouraged in the Islamic world. The Muslims were also forbidden from forcing their slave-girls into prostitution so that they would earn money out of it. There was an incident when the slave-girl of an Ansari was forced after which a verse relating to the act was revealed by Allah (swt).

Narated by Jabir ibn Abdullah: Musaykah, a slave-girl of some Ansari, came and said: My master forces me to commit fornication. Thereupon the following verse was revealed: "But force not your maids to prostitution (when they desire chastity)." – [Abu Dawud, Book 6, #2304]

The Lessons of Equality

There can be found numerous evidences in the Islamic traditions which teach us that slaves are to be treated like any other human being. Prophet Muhammad (saw) has taught us that slaves are equal to everyone else. People belonging to the days of ignorance would not stand next to a slave while Muslims stand next to them in prayers showing a sign of unity and uniformity in their status in front of Allah (swt). Hazrat Bilal was one of the first slaves to accept Islam. He was tortured by the pagans so that he would renounce Islam and come back to the pagan ways. However he did not reject Islam and adhered to the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (saw). He was also the first person to stand on top of the Ka'aba and give the Adhan (the Muslim call for prayer). It is also important to note that further evidence for the equality and recognition of slaves as normal human beings is seen in the numerous ahadith narrated by the slaves and freed slaves that are considered as true and followed by millions of Muslims in the world today. This means that their testimony is also recognized and accepted. We can also see from the traditions that slaves would not only stand shoulder to shoulder with others Muslims during prayer but would also lead the prayers.

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: When the earliest emigrants came to Al-'Usba a place in Quba', before the arrival of the Prophet- Salim, the slave of Abu Hudhaifa, who knew the Qur'an more than the others used to lead them in prayer. – [Bukhari, Vol.1, Book 11, #661]

In the Quran one can see clearly that the woman-slaves and man-slaves who have accepted Islam are better than the free women and men from the disbelievers. Muslims are advised to get the son or daughter married to a woman-slave or man-slave rather than a free woman or man from among the idolaters.

Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise. – [Quran 2:221]

Islam goes a step ahead in giving respect to the slaves and it is narrated that Prophet Muhammad(saw) asked people not to refer to a slave saying "this is my slave" but rather to say "this is my man" or "this is my woman".

Islam Stresses on Freeing Slaves

Importance was stressed upon manumitting slaves a lot by Allah (swt) through his last and final prophet (saw). Even if a disbeliever practiced slave-manumitting before accepting Islam, it is told that he would yet be rewarded for this good deed after accepting Islam. In Islam there is a concept that all good done for the sake of Allah (swt) will be rewarded and all those done for other causes e.g. fame, fortune etc will not be rewarded in the Hereafter. Manumitting slaves is among those good deeds which are rewarded even if done before accepting Islam.

Narrated Hakim bin Hizam: I said to Allah's Apostle, "Before embracing Islam I used to do good deeds like giving in charity, slave-manumitting, and the keeping of good relations with Kith and kin. Shall I be rewarded for those deeds?" The Prophet replied, "You became Muslim with all those good deeds (Without losing their reward)." – [Bukhari, Vol.2, Book 24, #517]

Allah (swt) through his prophet (saw) stressed the good in freeing a slave. A person once came to Prophet Muhammad (saw) saying that he had sexual intercourse with his wife while he was fasting and thus wished to seek guidance in that matter. The first form of compensation which Prophet Muhammad (saw) informed him of was the freeing of a slave.

Narrated by Abu Huraira: While we were sitting with the Prophet a man came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have been ruined." Allah's Apostle asked what was the matter with him. He replied "I had sexual intercourse with my wife while I was fasting." Allah's Apostle asked him, "Can you afford to manumit a slave?" He replied in the negative. Allah's Apostle asked him, "Can you fast for two successive months?" He replied in the negative. The Prophet asked him, "Can you afford to feed sixty poor persons?" He replied in the negative. The Prophet kept silent and while we were in that state, a big basket full of dates was brought to the Prophet. He asked, "Where is the questioner?" He replied, "I (am here)." The Prophet said (to him), "Take this (basket of dates) and give it in charity." The man said, "Should I give it to a person poorer than I? By Allah; there is no family between its ( i.e. Medina's) two mountains who are poorer than I." The Prophet smiled till his pre-molar teeth became visible and then said, 'Feed your family with it." – [Bukhari, Vol.3, Book 31, #157]

There were times when a slave was jointly owned by two people. In such cases there were times when one owner, for the sake of Allah (swt) would want to manumit his share in the joint ownership. Under such circumstances it was told that the person manumitting his share of the ownership should also pay for the remaining share to ensure that the slave is freed completely. However if he could not do so, the remaining price would then be estimated and the slave had the right to work and pay the amount required for his freedom to the other owner.

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever manumits his share of a jointly possessed slave, it is imperative for him to get that slave manumitted completely by paying the remaining price, and if he does not have sufficient money to manumit him, then the price of the slave should be estimated justly, and he is to be allowed to work and earn the amount that will manumit him (without overburdening him)". – [Bukhari, Vol.3, Book 44, #672]

Further in the Quran it is seen that people are encouraged to marry the slaves. If a person cannot marry a free woman for whatever reason, to prevent him from committing sin, the Quran asks them to marry from among the slave women.

If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable. – [Quran 4:25]

They can take the permission of the master and marry the slave. This was yet another example of Allah (swt) ensuring that slaves would be freed as marriage with the slave of another would make the slave a free person.

Why Gradual Elimination?

There is no doubt that Islam encouraged the freeing of slaves. However one would ask that as slavery is a social disease, why Islam did not make it forbidden. Firstly slavery as seen in Islam is poles apart than the one practiced by those who do not follow the guidelines presented by Islam. Secondly slavery could not have been forbidden in those days. Islam did not allow the selling of free people as slaves. Majority of the slaves were the people captured in the wars fought by the Muslims against the non-Muslims. Due to the lack of prison systems in those days, it was important to keep the captured people as slaves. If these people would be allowed to live freely within the Muslims, they would have regrouped and not only attacked the Muslims but probably would have also tried to assassinate the Sahabah or even Prophet Muhammad (saw). By giving these people as slaves, they were distributed and thus could not regroup and attack the Muslims.

Islam never started slavery and it is well known that slavery was practiced much before the introduction of Islam. Islam actually laid down all the rules so that eventually slavery would be eliminated completely. There are many great rewards for freeing a slave. Allah (swt) has given man all the incentive to free slaves which would in return eventually eradicate slavery completely. Another narration goes as follows:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever frees a Muslim slave, Allah will save all the parts of his body from the (Hell) Fire as he has freed the body-parts of the slave." Said bin Marjana said that he narrated that Hadith to 'Ali bin Al-Husain and he freed his slave for whom 'Abdullah bin Ja'far had offered him ten thousand Dirhams or one-thousand Dinars. – [Bukhari, Vol.3, Book 46, #693]

Islam's Stand on Slavery

Islam teaches its followers to respect all Mankind regardless of their color, race or their bank balance. Slaves were given rights which were not heard of in other societies. Islam gave them protection and asked people to treat them as brothers and give them to eat of what they ate and to wear what they wore. The Bible too speaks about slaves and lays down laws regarding the treatment of slaves.

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property." – [Exodus 21:20-21]

As it can be seen, the Bible allows a person to beat their slave and the master will not be punished unless the slave dies. The slave is treated as a personal property of the master. Islam came to correct such manmade rules regarding not only slavery but a lot of concepts. Islam has been the original advocate for humanity and has always taught men the importance of humanity.

[B]With the introduction of Islam slaves were treated as human beings rather than personal property. Moreover Islam made sure that gradually people will not perform this act and encouraged the freeing of slaves. Manumitting a slave was encouraged for the smallest of reasons. If there was a solar eclipse, people were recommended to free a slave – If there was a lunar eclipse, people were recommended to free a slave. It can be seen that Muslims were encouraged to free slaves for any and every reason. Islam gave security to the slaves and laid down directions so that slavery would eventually be eliminated completely.

- Ebrahim Saifuddin

here is a true example of the treatment of women slaves, and slave men got as equitable and descent treatment. when i first heard the rules, i was astonished! i got treated worse then at in my office!

(also note, one of the first and best muslim's were slaves as were so many others.)


iE. SLAVES IN ISLAM WERE NOT SLAVES AS YOU KNOW AND THINK THEM AT ALL. YOU COULDNNT BEAT OR HIT OR SHOUT AT YOUR SLAVE ... THEY HAD TO BE WELL FED, CLOTHED AND GIVEN WARM QUARTERS TO SLEAP. THEY HAD TO BE PROTECTED. THEY HAD A RIGHT TO EDUCATION. THEY COULD NOT BE EXPLOITED.


Slave women status in Islam

How come that Qur’an condemns Adultery, While Islam permits Muslim men to own slave women, and permits them to have sex with them without marrying them?

When Islam was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), slavery was a worldwide common social phenomenon; it was much older than Islam.

Slavery was deeply rooted in every society to the extent that it was impossible to imagine a civilized society without slaves.

1. Social illness:

In spite of this social fact, Islam was the first religion to recognize slavery as a social illness that needed to be addressed.

Since slavery was deeply rooted in the society, Islam did not abolish it at once. Rather, Islam treated slavery in the same manner it treated other social illnesses.

Islam followed the same methodology of gradual elimination in dealing with this social disease as it did with other social illnesses, for example: the prohibition of alcohol in three steps.

2. War custom:

Concerning having slave women, we would like to let you know that it happens to be a practice necessitated by the condition in which early Muslims found themselves vis-a-vis non-Muslims, as both parties engaged in wars.

Slave women or “milk al-yameen” are referred to in the Qur'an as “Those whom your right hand possess” or “ma malakat aymanukum”; they are those taken as captives during conquests and subsequently became slaves, or those who were descendants of slaves.

Thus, it was a war custom in the past to take men and women as captives and then turn them into slaves.

Islam did not initiate it; rather, it was something in practice long ago before the advent of Islam. And when Islam came, it tried to eradicate this practice, bit by bit.

So it first restricted it to the reciprocal practice of war, in the sense that Muslims took war captives just as the enemies did with Muslims.

3. The Rules:

But as it aimed at putting an end to such issue, Islam laid down rules which would eventually lead to eradicating the practice.

So it allowed Muslims to have intercourse with slave women taken as captives of just and legitimate wars.

In so doing, the woman would automatically become free if she got pregnant. What's more, her child would also become free.

4. Treating slave women:

Not only that, Islam also ordered a Muslim to treat the slave woman in every respect as if she were his wife. She should be well fed, clothed and given due protection.

In the family environment, she had the opportunity to learn about Islam and was free to accept it or reject it.

She also had the opportunity to earn her freedom for she could be ransomed.

5. Why permitted:

In the light of the above-mentioned facts, and the nature of the question posed by people, it's clear that some people misunderstand the wisdom behind the permissibility of having female slaves and think that it is meant to unleash men’s desires and give them more enjoyment.

Never! That is not the point! It is, rather, means of freeing slaves; and this is clarified above in the fact that if a master got a female slave pregnant, then he could neither sell her nor give her away as a present.

And if he died, she would not be considered part of his property. She'd receive her freedom and her baby would also be free.

6. Female servants and maids:

But, we have to stress that this case should not be confused with that of female servants or maids, for they are free and not slaves.

Therefore, it is forbidden to engage in sexual relations with them except through an Islamic marriage.

Slavery has been abolished by international conventions, and goes in line with aims and objectives of Islam, as it has called for centuries ago.

7. Marrying slaves conditions:

As for marrying slaves, it is something permissible under two conditions:

First, if one is unable to pay the dowry of a free woman.

Second, if there is fear of committing adultery if one doesn’t get married. This is clarified by the following verse:

“And whose is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you.”

[Qura’n 4:25]
This verse shows that Muslim men should abstain from illicit relations and seek enjoyment through marriage to free women or through their female slaves.

8. Conclusion:

In conclusion, Allah has forbidden certain types of behavior and permitted other kinds of behavior as a safeguard to the individual and to the society.
Allah has forbidden fornication and adultery. However, in the case of captives whom your right hands posses, it's something necessitated by the special circumstances which were created when the Muslims were at war.

P.S.:

1. From http://www.islamonline.net/
2. To get more information about Islam http://islam-heart.blogspot.com/2008/09/info-about-islam.html

3. Anyone ... and I mean anyone (Muslim or not Muslim) who needs my help or wants to directly communicate with me about any matter in Islam … please don't hesitate to contact me on my personal e-mail mai4islam@yahoo.com

Ill end - again this aint complete in the slightest - but ill end with this post and fameous haddeeth of the prophet mentioned in context about a recent article on the election of Obama.


.... Two hundred years after the abolishment of slavery western liberal societies continue to debate whether a black man can lead the most powerful nation in the world. Yet for Muslims this issue was resolved over 1400 years ago. The Prophet Muhammad (p) said,

"You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian (black) slave..."

Racism and prejudice has no place in Islam even when it comes to leadership and ruling. In this case colour is not the real issue as it has been used as a diversion. The real issues underlying the economic, social and foreign policy problems will not be addressed, because that would mean a change in values and a change in system. If Obama were to suggest such as thing, I am sure he would be impeached!

Just because it’s a new face representing a new found hope – it doesn’t mean that the system will change. You can dress the devil as an angel, but you will still get burnt when you shake his hand!


... Anonymous said...


Salaam,

"Two hundred years after the abolishment of slavery western liberal societies continue to debate whether a black man can lead the most powerful nation in the world. Yet for Muslims this issue was resolved over 1400 years ago."




"You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian (black) slave..."


This WELL KNOWN MUSLIM QUOTE (to muslims) goes to show you or give you a hint atleast of the COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PARADIGM Islam opperates and Muslims OPPERATE FROM ... (WHICH THE ROTHSCHILDS AND PTB HAVE DONE WELL TO F-UP IN YOU SO YOU ARE DIVORCED FROM THIS) ...

therefore to understand Islam, it requires in much respects, a paradigm shift from the self-obssessed, self-interested, self-driven, fruit-driven, desire-driven, purely head-thought-illusion-fear driven nature you have now, to a more source-driven, non-selfish, basis-driven and self-honest paradigm which truns things so many things on its head once you see it clearly once and for all ... and may be the true reason why so many researchers says that this world and its main system is literraly insane and that everything is just upside down, maddness ; lawyers destroy justice, doctors destroy health, etc etc ...



Does that sound like a religion that is unfair, biased and f-d up?

Does the banning of USARY (no.1 killer and cause of psychological and political problems, environmental etc) sound F-d up, evil and unfair to you or society?

Does respecting people , land and property and work you do , and your rights sound unfair to you?

Does sincerity and a belief in one merciful, just, wise God sound f-d up to you?

Does prohibiting husbands and wives cheating on each other sound unfair?

Does allowing them to Divorce one another FREELY without hassle and go seperate ways and re-marry sound unfair and f-d up?

the more you learn about Islam, both its spirituality and its rules which are one and the same really and are interlinked and just facets of one another ( what it is and how the majority of muslims know and live it as ) as opposed to peddling and repeating the absurd propeganda you keep telling to yourselves and others - the more you will come to understand it was that you were seeking all your life ... or atleast come to understand and respect it



(p.s. Sophia ... Do you know there is true testemony of the facts of many so called muslim abusive husbands , by the NEWSPAPERS themselves, that when they printed the story of the abusive husband and called him a muslem, that a week later the print an apology that he wasnt muslim in the first place and is in fact either a liberal/atheist/siekh ... ive seen these small footnote, backpage apologies ... in print by the newspapers themselves which originally printed the original untrue story in full spread ...

if you want to read this for yourself, get the book "WRONGLY BLAMED" google it ... youll find out more then that ... like the Mossad agents who dressed in arab gear and beards and were caught red handed trying to plant bombs in the mexican parliament straight after 911 ... in an attempt to ignite a huger anger towards the muslims and get mexico to join in the war on terror ... the Mexican President and other dignataries have spoken about this and were absolutely shocked ... but did you hear about it in the press in your self indignant mediated cocoons?! no. )

But hay youll say, there are tons of people (idiots) out there on the net saying west eradicated slavery (usuary anyone. covert slavery? house niggers? ever heard of this ... mmm ) and that for 1400 years the muslims were running on slavey when in the Quran and in the actual historical fact there are many people who have done Justice to their own soul and earned rewards in paradise by FREEING A SLAVE, as the Quran mentions many times ...

rushed .. going to work ...


NICE ONE Adbasque :)

[ie11]

... ill post this one later ...

[mephibosheth]

But yet, with so many super TALL people running around, one would expect some of their giant tools to show up.
Surely they must of had giant hammers and screwrivers and chordless drills and whatever? Not to mention the scale of their houses and cities.


Giant Hammers Found in Welsh Mines (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26472)

Massive Stones Found at Baalbek (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_baalbek_1.htm)

8)

[sophia_h]

adbasque

nice name. good post. well said. thank you. Jazakalahair.

And besides you people, when and while muslims did take slaves during war times , they treated the slaves with alot more rights then you lot ever gave to the blacks, indians, etc when you took them as slaves.

A slave in islam has fundemental rights which are described and protected by God himself and whoever transgresses those rights is not a muslim and/or has strayed from the right path and furthermore will not be wronged in the heareafter when he sees what he did.

for instance, in islam the meaning of slave (taken during battle) has no way not the same meaning as the meaning or image you all have of a slave (in the galleys, chained, fed crap, or not fed at all, beated and abused, etc etc) ... the rights they had and respect they had was enormous ...

you could not shout at a slave. you could not beat a slave. etc.



here is a true example of the treatment of women slaves, and slave men got as equitable and descent treatment. when i first heard the rules, i was astonished! i got treated worse then at in my office!

(also note, one of the first and best muslim's were slaves as were so many others.)


iE. SLAVES IN ISLAM WERE NOT SLAVES AS YOU KNOW AND THINK THEM AT ALL. YOU COULDNNT BEAT OR HIT OR SHOUT AT YOUR SLAVE ... THEY HAD TO BE WELL FED, CLOTHED AND GIVEN WARM QUARTERS TO SLEAP. THEY HAD TO BE PROTECTED. THEY HAD A RIGHT TO EDUCATION. THEY COULD NOT BE EXPLOITED.



Ill end - again this aint complete in the slightest - but ill end with this post and fameous haddeeth of the prophet mentioned in context about a recent article on the election of Obama.




"You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he was an Ethiopian (black) slave..."[/B]


This WELL KNOWN MUSLIM QUOTE (to muslims) goes to show you or give you a hint atleast of the COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PARADIGM Islam opperates and Muslims OPPERATE FROM ... (WHICH THE ROTHSCHILDS AND PTB HAVE DONE WELL TO F-UP IN YOU SO YOU ARE DIVORCED FROM THIS) ...

therefore to understand Islam, it requires in much respects, a paradigm shift from the self-obssessed, self-interested, self-driven, fruit-driven, desire-driven, purely head-thought-illusion-fear driven nature you have now, to a more source-driven, non-selfish, basis-driven and self-honest paradigm which truns things so many things on its head once you see it clearly once and for all ... and may be the true reason why so many researchers says that this world and its main system is literraly insane and that everything is just upside down, maddness ; lawyers destroy justice, doctors destroy health, etc etc ...



Does that sound like a religion that is unfair, biased and f-d up?

Does the banning of USARY (no.1 killer and cause of psychological and political problems, environmental etc) sound F-d up, evil and unfair to you or society?

Does respecting people , land and property and work you do , and your rights sound unfair to you?

Does sincerity and a belief in one merciful, just, wise God sound f-d up to you?

Does prohibiting husbands and wives cheating on each other sound unfair?

Does allowing them to Divorce one another FREELY without hassle and go seperate ways and re-marry sound unfair and f-d up?

the more you learn about Islam, both its spirituality and its rules which are one and the same really and are interlinked and just facets of one another ( what it is and how the majority of muslims know and live it as ) as opposed to peddling and repeating the absurd propeganda you keep telling to yourselves and others - the more you will come to understand it was that you were seeking all your life ... or atleast come to understand and respect it



(p.s. Sophia ... Do you know there is true testemony of the facts of many so called muslim abusive husbands , by the NEWSPAPERS themselves, that when they printed the story of the abusive husband and called him a muslem, that a week later the print an apology that he wasnt muslim in the first place and is in fact either a liberal/atheist/siekh ... ive seen these small footnote, backpage apologies ... in print by the newspapers themselves which originally printed the original untrue story in full spread ...

if you want to read this for yourself, get the book "WRONGLY BLAMED" google it ... youll find out more then that ... like the Mossad agents who dressed in arab gear and beards and were caught red handed trying to plant bombs in the mexican parliament straight after 911 ... in an attempt to ignite a huger anger towards the muslims and get mexico to join in the war on terror ... the Mexican President and other dignataries have spoken about this and were absolutely shocked ... but did you hear about it in the press in your self indignant mediated cocoons?! no. )

But hay youll say, there are tons of people (idiots) out there on the net saying west eradicated slavery (usuary anyone. covert slavery? house niggers? ever heard of this ... mmm ) and that for 1400 years the muslims were running on slavey when in the Quran and in the actual historical fact there are many people who have done Justice to their own soul and earned rewards in paradise by FREEING A SLAVE, as the Quran mentions many times ...

rushed .. going to work ...


NICE ONE Adbasque :)











(p.s. Sophia ... Do you know there is true testemony of the facts of many so called muslim abusive husbands , by the NEWSPAPERS themselves, that when they printed the story of the abusive husband and called him a muslem, that a week later the print an apology that he wasnt muslim in the first place and is in fact either a liberal/atheist/siekh ... ive seen these small footnote, backpage apologies ... in print by the newspapers themselves which originally printed the original untrue story in full spread ...


why not post this info here with sources linked?



I havent time to go looking for what YOU want to prove


when there are so many stories even from Muslim Women who
get word out to Western Womens Groups and it gets to news
even if limited amounts

You can say all you want about the rules and written laws
but MUSLIM WOMEN who escape or speak to outside sources
give the lie to that view.


what your utopiain view is and
the REALITY FOR WOMEN IS
are very far apart.

sorry, I do wish your views were for real.

It is painful for many Women across the world to know how
Muslim Women suffer under male supremacism every
minute of everyday


YES we have it here in USA, its in EVERY corner of the world
but here a woman CAN get help and get out of the clutches
of the male supremacist.


I do not misunderstand here,

WOMAN HATRED is RIFE in ALL RELIGIONS



hoo invented these RELIGIONS??

and WHY ??


~

[major seven]

Giant Hammers Found in Welsh Mines (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26472)

Massive Stones Found at Baalbek (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_baalbek_1.htm)

8)

Hi Meph
Thanks for the links. Very cool.
I wasn't that impressed with the hammers though. That picture showing a crude sort of a trip hammer would explain a lot. And what would a mere 64lbs be to 100ft tall people? Be like a tiny pebble in their hands I reckon.
Those stone megaliths are totally cool though, eh what?
My only problem is that there just ain't enough of them considering the large numbers of huge people postulated by Mohammud coming from a 100ft tall Adam and Eve.
And they always seem to be temple related with maybe some astronomy thrown in.
If the Sumerians condidered those stones of Baalek ancient in their day, that would predate the bible stories and Adam, right?
They are an enigma though.
Do you suppose those Crop Design people got anything to do with it?
Some sort of anti-gravity belts would work a lot better than hooking up every camel for miles around. And then what sort of rope would you hook them up with? Definetly a mind blower.
Here are a few thoughts from this guy on megaliths in general. A little lame, but not bad.
http://freespace.virgin.net/ecliptica.ww/book/megalith.htm

Got to wonder though what 100ft people did for food and shelter.
Maybe they just elected to live out in the open and get rained on.

FM7

[major seven]

adbasque;799205]Well all it takes is one of you to spill his poison and the rest will follow
pretending to be peace loving people, you are full really full of hatred, waiting for just a moment to unleash your full hatred.

You know what I could not care less, my only regret is that I only knew Islam about 22 years of my life I wish I embraced it way before that.

You people make me sick, before I became Muslim, I used to hear the Muslims saying that the westerners are racists, and hypocrites, I thought they were exagerating, now I can see why.

the worst thing is it's coming from uneducated people, have no knowledge whatsoever, provocation, and arrogant that's the usually the case,as they say a little knowledge is very dangerous.

Why are you so concerned by the Muslims?

I thought the idea was to fight the people who are taking the bread out of your mouths, Oh no those you can't fight them, because they are your true masters.

It's easy to pick on Muslims, that shows how immature and cowards you really are.

Go on carry on with your hatred and islamophobia, cause your true enemy the Rothschilds and their friends are screwing your lives on a daily baisis, and turning you into animals, all you need to do is look at how you are living, turn on your Tv to see what it became of you.

For decades everything you people do, and blame it on others, you hate people and blame it on Muslims, you wage wars and blame it on others, you like to conquer and blame it on others, for just some idiots that still don't know.


Muslims took people as slaves in war times, the Christian crusaders kill without mercy, women children, elderly, disabled, it's in the history books, I did not make it.

How many wars America and Britain waged on Nations since 1945? hein? more than 48 countries have been officially or unofficially invaded, when I say USA I mean Britain too because they are One.
how many died in this century alone?

How many slaves in India Britain made? how many countries it did conquer? still to this day?
that's more than 300 years now.

Oh no you're blind for these things, but if one muslims makes a mistake and sometimes they are not even real muslims, the whole of Muslim nation will suffer as result and not only one generation you tarnish everything about Islam and above, with a completely unfounded allegations, and you deliberately falsify just so you can spread lies.

The rothschilds don't have to work very hard you're doing it for them, you call yourselves free men? lol
Anyway I normally don't reply to idiotic comments like these.

Lol and not to mention the double standard, if you talk about a Jew, Christian, or Homosexual they'll eat alive, but when it's a Muslim, feel free to spread you poison far and wide.

Now I know what I needed to know.[/QUOTE]


FM7
Hey Adbasque
I see you are in a good mood as usual.
You do like to generalize, don't you.
I'm guessing you must hang on every word that comes from your Imam handlers.
I always love the way muslims toss the Crusades in our western faces.
You need some enlightenment into your own Islamic Crusades which predated by centuries anything Europeans did.
In fact, if you all just stayed home in your own sandbox, there wouldn't have been a need for a European response to Islamic imperialism/conquering which reached as far as France where there was the Battle of Tours in 732.
Just a tad before the First Crusade, eh Adman?
Check this out for your possible but not expected enlightenment.

www.americanthinker.com/2005/11/the_truth_about_islamic_crusad.html

Be sure to check out how much carnage you Idiots have caused in just a hundred years up to the time of the Battle of Tours in 732 from the time Mohammud(pbuh-not) kicked the bucket in 632.
Pretty impressive, ain't it? And to think you still had a lot more pillaging and slaughtering to do before the First Crusaders headed south.

And you think we need to be more worried about the Rothchilds? !!!LOL!!!

As long as you are in a good mood, explain to me why Islam had to desecrate the Jews most holiest site with that Dome of the Rock thing.
Yeah, I know! Mo(pbuh-not) had a dream.
What else do you got?

FM7

[adbasque]

10.53pm:



at 11.59pm he starts posting again in this "closed" topic! :D

Does Islam give you Alzheimer's? ;)
Yes Islam does give Alzheimer's disease :)

[adbasque]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't possibly remember something that never ever occured or happened, did check your sources? ;) fyi you can probably check this one out :)
The first to ever give a woman her full rights is Islam, whether you like it or not it remains a fact, and that is world wide.

Anyway carry on.

[adbasque]

why not post this info here with sources linked?



I havent time to go looking for what YOU want to prove


when there are so many stories even from Muslim Women who
get word out to Western Womens Groups and it gets to news
even if limited amounts

You can say all you want about the rules and written laws
but MUSLIM WOMEN who escape or speak to outside sources
give the lie to that view.


what your utopiain view is and
the REALITY FOR WOMEN IS
are very far apart.

sorry, I do wish your views were for real.

It is painful for many Women across the world to know how
Muslim Women suffer under male supremacism every
minute of everyday


YES we have it here in USA, its in EVERY corner of the world
but here a woman CAN get help and get out of the clutches
of the male supremacist.


I do not misunderstand here,

WOMAN HATRED is RIFE in ALL RELIGIONS



hoo invented these RELIGIONS??

and WHY ??


~

Thanks bro ;) ie11

The sad thing is, we are here on these forums to try and raise awareness about the real real issues, like the banksters that have been sucking people's sweat and blood, as well as the prostituted politicians that serve them, instead of serving us the people.

But that would not surprise me, these people trying desperately to divert our focus away from the real problems that the whole of humanity is facing, I appreciate your post, but don't bother because these people do know the truth, they are not interested in it.

The truth and honesty don't suit them, these people serve Satan so they know where the truth is, but they prefer to falsify it and spread lies.

Trust me they are not interested in religion at all, I give you an example.
most people here pretend to be atheists and all of these religions are man made, to control the masses. ok, let's assume this is the case

How can they explain then, it prohibits everything that is bad for people
How can they explain it protects the weak, the orphan, the abused, the sick and always warns about looking after your neighbours.

How can they explain that it warns and prohibits interests in banking?
How can they explain that it prohibits gambling?
How can they explain that it prohibits sexual intercourses before marriage, have they ever bothered to ask why?
they believe that Islam is just cruel and controlling every aspect of your life.
there are reasons, everything that Islam prohibited has come true with severe consequences, let's look at them a little bit closely.

Gambling first, people in the west have lost their homes, their belongings because of gambling, but you hardly hear about it on the main stream news.

Alcohol I cannot even begin to tell what alcohol did to the western society
murders, robberies, assaults, aggression, people killed for abusing it's consumption, especially in the last few years more and more people are dying very young with diseases alcohol related.

Adultery, it broke so many homes, and more and more people got hurt as a result not to mention transmission of various sexual diseases.

I can go on like this for hours, but I won't I just mentioned these to show that these people will never ever admit that Islam has predicted all of these things.

One is because they are arrogant, full of themselves, in their minds a Muslim is a backward person, controlled and so on.

Have they bothered to find out the huge and when I say huge I mean huge contribution to modern science that the west is enjoying today.

(Everything I am mentioning here can be checked out, and I defy anyone to check them out)

Let's examine them shall we?

They "invented Algebra" which is widely used today and without it our world might not be as advanced as it is today.

They practically invented what we know today as hospitals, in the 9th to 14th centuries the west were still healing with spirits and so on while the Muslims were building hospitals and wards

They invented surgical instruments still being used today, they were the very first to perform an eye operation in the 10th century and very successfully.

And not to mention the various diseases they've treated successfully, (it's all documented check it out)
Astrology, they understood the movements of the havens and the planets they even invented instruments to measure time, distances, and anything that is related to astrology and astronomy.

There are books and books written about the different functions of the organs in the human body, the various chemicals that are essential to a well being even as far as the amount a of these 4 chemicals a body needs to have in order to function correctly.

They were the very first to develop dentistry, treating the different mouth diseases.
The very first to prove that light travels in a straight line and all the optical issues, the vision, and so on.

They were dealing with chemistry, physics, maths, psychology wayyyyyyyyyy before the west.

The western scientist literally copied and translated their work, from Arabic to Latin.

Let's mention a couple of these Giant Muslim scientists, shall we?

Ibn Senna
Ibn al Haythem
Yaqub Ibn Ishaq al-kindi
Ali Ibn Rabbanal-Tahari
Abu Abdullah al- Battani
Al-Farghani
Mohamed Ibn Zakaria al-Razi
Abu al-Nasr al-Farabi
Abul Hassan Ali al-Massudi


These are just few of the Muslim scientist, you can Google them, or find the books, but I know you will not bother, because truth is of no interest to you, all you are interested in is to spread hatred, for the simple reason.
You have been brain washed for many generations, even if the truth hits you in the face you wouldn't accept it.

And that is why I said to you ie11 don't waste your time in explaining, or justifying, these people are NOT will never be interested in the truth, they only believe what they want to believe in.
For many centuries the west were lying to their people, never ever mention the Islamic culture, Islamic civilisation, the huge Islamic contribution to the world, however you can mention that Islam = Terrorism, savages, backward, wives beaters, women oppressors, despite the fact that millions of women came out openly to say if I wear Islamic clothing, it is not by force, it is a choice, they're still pushing to make their lies a reality.



First of all, Islam is the very first religion to ever give a woman her rights before that women were dragged by their hair and raped and beaten up, but they never ever talk about these things.

How can a religion that protects the weak, the disabled, the orphans, women, elderly, the sick, the poor, the hungry, and equality amongst human beings can be bad?

One thing is clear here, those who reject Islam are the following, the ones who live suck people's blood such as politicians, bankers, casino owners, sex and porn industry, weapon manufacturers, tobacco industry, alcohol industry, and many more, basically anyone who has a business or an interest in things that Islam forbids hate Islam.

What is really funny they all pretend to know a great deal about Islam, but I promise you, they only know a couple of things and NOT completely, or they know the truth, but they only tell half of it, because if they go the full length it would not be as bad as they wanted to be.

For example they accuse Islam of being harsh, yeah? let's zoom in and look at it a bit closely.

If anyone in the west kills a person he can get 7 to 15 years if premeditated he might get life, but all of these sentences are halved, loll

And if someone robs a bank he will automatically get 25 to 30 years, which comes to show that money is more important than a human life.

Crime rises, and rises, and rises, and rises,

Now during the 700 years of Islamic ruling, two thefts in 7 centuries, how can you compare?

Why? Because the system was so fair people did not need to steal, if they stole it's purely by greed, the system has not failed a single person and that includes the Christian and Jewish minorities living under the empire at the time, and more to this they were highly protected from assassinations, from outsiders, other Christians and Jewish groups and organisations, they had to hide under the Islamic empire.

Speaking of which, the welfare system that is used today in the western hemisphere, was copied to the letter from Islamic system, and then later changed to suit their leaders.

Napoleon was going to use the Islamic tax system, just before he was exiled.(these are facts check them out)

I can go on like this for days, but I have no intention in doing so.

One last thing, I am sometimes angry towards some so called Muslims, everytime something happens, the so called "Muslims" come out condemn whatever happened, I am sick and tired of having to justify myself everytime a lunatic blows up or does something in the name of Islam.

So if I go tomorrow and blow up people and call it in the name of Israel, everybody would believe that I did it in the name of Israel and Judaism? no of course not.

If a Christian blows up like the IRA they called them "The IRA militants" not the Christian terrorists, if any other faith or movement they call them by their names they never mention their faith, but so long as a CIA, Mossad,

MI5 blows up innocent people and buildings and blame it on a Muslim groups (implying Islam teaches this) that doesn't even exist, the whole of Islam takes the blame, it is obvious and it is clear they want to spread and expand their hatred.

Little knowledge is more dangerous than a total ignorance!

Anyway I don't care anymore

So my advice to you ie11 don't waste your time, in explaining anything

Take care all of the "true, truth seelers"

[adbasque]

adbasque;799205]Well all it takes is one of you to spill his poison and the rest will follow
pretending to be peace loving people, you are full really full of hatred, waiting for just a moment to unleash your full hatred.

You know what I could not care less, my only regret is that I only knew Islam about 22 years of my life I wish I embraced it way before that.

You people make me sick, before I became Muslim, I used to hear the Muslims saying that the westerners are racists, and hypocrites, I thought they were exagerating, now I can see why.

the worst thing is it's coming from uneducated people, have no knowledge whatsoever, provocation, and arrogant that's the usually the case,as they say a little knowledge is very dangerous.

Why are you so concerned by the Muslims?

I thought the idea was to fight the people who are taking the bread out of your mouths, Oh no those you can't fight them, because they are your true masters.

It's easy to pick on Muslims, that shows how immature and cowards you really are.

Go on carry on with your hatred and islamophobia, cause your true enemy the Rothschilds and their friends are screwing your lives on a daily baisis, and turning you into animals, all you need to do is look at how you are living, turn on your Tv to see what it became of you.

For decades everything you people do, and blame it on others, you hate people and blame it on Muslims, you wage wars and blame it on others, you like to conquer and blame it on others, for just some idiots that still don't know.


Muslims took people as slaves in war times, the Christian crusaders kill without mercy, women children, elderly, disabled, it's in the history books, I did not make it.

How many wars America and Britain waged on Nations since 1945? hein? more than 48 countries have been officially or unofficially invaded, when I say USA I mean Britain too because they are One.
how many died in this century alone?

How many slaves in India Britain made? how many countries it did conquer? still to this day?
that's more than 300 years now.

Oh no you're blind for these things, but if one muslims makes a mistake and sometimes they are not even real muslims, the whole of Muslim nation will suffer as result and not only one generation you tarnish everything about Islam and above, with a completely unfounded allegations, and you deliberately falsify just so you can spread lies.

The rothschilds don't have to work very hard you're doing it for them, you call yourselves free men? lol
Anyway I normally don't reply to idiotic comments like these.

Lol and not to mention the double standard, if you talk about a Jew, Christian, or Homosexual they'll eat alive, but when it's a Muslim, feel free to spread you poison far and wide.

Now I know what I needed to know.


FM7
Hey Adbasque
I see you are in a good mood as usual.
You do like to generalize, don't you.
I'm guessing you must hang on every word that comes from your Imam handlers.
I always love the way muslims toss the Crusades in our western faces.
You need some enlightenment into your own Islamic Crusades which predated by centuries anything Europeans did.
In fact, if you all just stayed home in your own sandbox, there wouldn't have been a need for a European response to Islamic imperialism/conquering which reached as far as France where there was the Battle of Tours in 732.
Just a tad before the First Crusade, eh Adman?
Check this out for your possible but not expected enlightenment.

www.americanthinker.com/2005/11/the_truth_about_islamic_crusad.html

Be sure to check out how much carnage you Idiots have caused in just a hundred years up to the time of the Battle of Tours in 732 from the time Mohammud(pbuh-not) kicked the bucket in 632.
Pretty impressive, ain't it? And to think you still had a lot more pillaging and slaughtering to do before the First Crusaders headed south.

And you think we need to be more worried about the Rothchilds? !!!LOL!!!

As long as you are in a good mood, explain to me why Islam had to desecrate the Jews most holiest site with that Dome of the Rock thing.
Yeah, I know! Mo(pbuh-not) had a dream.
What else do you got?

FM7[/QUOTE]

I won't give you anything, you want something go and fetch it yourself, and I am not answering any of your messages, I am not in a habit of being insulted and called an idiot.
I wasted enough of my time with people like you.

[adbasque]

FM7
Hey Adbasque
I see you are in a good mood as usual.
You do like to generalize, don't you.
I'm guessing you must hang on every word that comes from your Imam handlers.
I always love the way muslims toss the Crusades in our western faces.

FM7

No, I am not generalising, I am stating facts, all I am asking you is deal with them, and I don't listen to any Imam, my Imam are books, common sense, years of research, books of history, and you're certainly not going to teach me anything about Islam.

And you just proved two things, you are not only a complete ignorant, but also what I suspected all a long, hatred pure and simple.

And fyi I am not an arab I am a caucasian who reverted to Islam, I was not born in a "sandBox" though if I were born in a sand box I would be proud of it.

[adbasque]

adbasque why díd you sign to this forum?

But who created and run Islam The vatican wanted to take over Jerusalem, it was and is a hidden vatican military force. Today it is run Jesuit order. If they wanted they cot removed any islamic leader they are just Temporal Coadjutor of the Jesuit Order.

I came here to this forum, because for the first time I found people like me, trying to fight this establishment of tyranny, I didn't come here to discuss my religion, my faith or to attack anyone's faith, until I stumbled up on some people here attacking Islam, I cannot just accept those lies and shut up.

My main goal is to get some bleeding movement here to get rid of these tyrants whom are crippling humanity, and save our future generation from full fledged tyranny.

I am not interested in talking about Islam and other religions.
You believe what you want and I believe what I want, but we have a common enemy to fight right now.

Yes as for the Jesuits, the Black pope, the European royal families (impostors)
The knights Of Malta,
Count Hans Kolvenbach The Jesuit’s General
The NWO, the vatican is the most corrupt institution, the richest and the most powerful in the world today.

Even the Rothschilds are just generals of this institution, and Israel is the tool to build their empire.

Anyway I am off

[adbasque]

Because every time an Empire give a country independence the changes is really only on the surface. "form overt to covert control"

It was The British Empire that Setup The Saudi Royal family in 1932.They toll that they would not touch them as long as the basic for there state was Wahhabism. But if they want they can remove any islamic leader. To add this Brittan and British Empire has being run by Jesuit order since 1795.

Yes, they are using fake Islam to wage war and to create hatred, the saudis are not, were never Muslims, their ancestors I mean centuries ago were genuine, but the recent Saudis are not saudis, you will not find one Muslim in the world who would recognise them, they are dictators, rapists, selfish, arrogant, cold blooded killers, and they work into the hands of their friends, as mentioned the black pope, the royal family the rothschilds and so on.

They are no different than others and that goes to all the leaders in the world, and in the Arab world.
But they did not create Islam, nobody created Islam, the real Islam resides in people's hearts and heads, the saudis do NOT represent Muslims nor Islam.

If they were real Muslims do you think they'll sleep on gold while their people startve and thei so called "Brothers" in the world are suffering?

Do some maths you will find the answers, But Islam is the only religion today that stands in the way of the NWO, because it resides in people's hearts and they can't tamper with Quoran, or Hadiths and so on, they live in every Muslim's heart.
Most Muslims know the Quoran by heart it cannot be changed or tampered with.

Now, you are certainly free to believe what you want, and I'll do the same, without having to waste our time in trying to convince one another, we can do this in amutual respect, don't you think?

I have reasons to belive and you have reasons not to, so we leave it at this.
The day I discover that the whole Islam thing is dust in the wind, that day only then I will change my mind, until now I haven't seen anything I dislike about Islam.
In contrary it did open my eyes on numerous other things in the existence, for now we can put our differences into one side and battle to get rid of these blood suckers, if you guys are not ready, then I will look elsewhere.

Thanks

[mephibosheth]

I have reasons to belive and you have reasons not to, so we leave it at this.


I think the point of this topic was that the religion itself does not allow people to 'leave it at this'.



In contrary it did open my eyes on numerous other things in the existence, for now we can put our differences into one side and battle to get rid of these blood suckers, if you guys are not ready, then I will look elsewhere.


The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Ok, so suppose us poor dupes all get together and toss over the NWO bloodsuckers. Then what? What do you propose to take its place? A global shariat? Can Islam live in peace with atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, wiccans, et al, WITHOUT demanding that they 'pay up or fight for their lives'?

I for one have no intention or desire to live under Islamic rule. How does Islam deal with people like me?

Well, it's clear. Subject yourself to Islam or fight for your life. That's what it comes down to.

So, in other words, we dont just need to overthrow the NWO. We also need to portion out spaces in the world where Muslims can live their Muslims lives and the rest of us can live our liberal lives, without the two meeting in a confrontational way.

Is this possible? Is it practical?

Ask yourself this. Are Muslims content to live in non-Muslim countries? Countries run by kafir according to their rules? Evidently not, since attempts are constantly being made to give Muslims the right to institute their own brand of justice outside the conventional judicial channels accepted by every other member of society (eg, Canada, the UK).

So when we all get together and overthrow the NWO, will all Muslims gather in a big country and let the rest of us alone, if we also do the same? Would Muslims be content living under a single non-denominational rule of law that guarantess freedom of religion and institutes justice and policing without being tied directly to religious dogma? Does the religion allow them to 'leave it at that'?

8)

[adbasque]

when there are so many stories even from Muslim Women who
get word out to Western Womens Groups and it gets to news
even if limited amounts

The sad things is I can't understand how people find themselves on forums like these and yet they still believe what they read in the News Papers, or watch on TV.

Another thing, do the muslims accuse the westners as Christians wife beaters?
No when a wife is beaten in the west, they either blame it on alcohol, bad temper, domestic violence, or even madness.

But if a woman is beaten somewhere in the world, they quickly pick on Islam, can't you see the double standard?
Another thing, where women get beaten up has nothing whatsoever to do with "Islam" it has to do with culture, cultures change from one country to another it changes even from one region to another.

Let's take India for instance

You have Muslims
Sikhs
Hindus
So if the Muslim beats his wife it's Islam right?
If the Hindu beats his wife what is it? his religion his personality or his culture?
If the sikh beats his wife? what would it be?

You see the double standard?
and the same thing goes for all nations and cultures every origin.

Husbands and wives do fight and in some cases yes men abuse their wives, did you know that statistics showed few years back that more women were beaten in the west, than anywhere else in the world?
Is it Christianity?

Anyway I am very tired of all these allegations, and I suggest stop watching C***P on TV and news papers.

[mephibosheth]

T
Another thing, do the muslims accuse the westners as Christians wife beaters?
No when a wife is beaten in the west, they either blame it on alcohol, bad temper, domestic violence, or even madness.

But if a woman is beaten somewhere in the world, they quickly pick on Islam, can't you see the double standard?
Another thing, where women get beaten up has nothing whatsoever to do with "Islam" it has to do with culture, cultures change from one country to another it changes even from one region to another.


Hmm, I wonder if he'll get the message.

There is, of course, a fine line. We do need to have some balance in the way we evaluate circumstances.

However, if we keep seeing violence happening in Muslim communities and keep making the excuse that 'it isn't Islam, these people aren't REALLY Muslims' then we might start wondering if anyone really is a Muslim at all.

Just like Christianity, I'd reckon the numbers who actually and truthfull practice their faith 'as it was intended' to the letter are few and far between.

But then, that makes religion just an ideal with questionable practical value.

8)

[major seven]

FM7[/QUOTE]

I won't give you anything, you want something go and fetch it yourself, and I am not answering any of your messages, I am not in a habit of being insulted and called an idiot.
I wasted enough of my time with people like you.[/QUOTE]


FM7
Thats OK! I didn't really expect you to. I doubt you could answer anyway.
And we have certainly NOT wasted our time with you.

[adbasque]

I think the point of this topic was that the religion itself does not allow people to 'leave it at this'.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Well I said I'll leave it at this, as for the enemy of my enemy is my friend
it all depends whos your first and second enemy



Ok, so suppose us poor dupes all get together and toss over the NWO bloodsuckers. Then what? What do you propose to take its place? A global shariat? Can Islam live in peace with atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, wiccans, et al, WITHOUT demanding that they 'pay up or fight for their lives'?


People lived side by side for many generations, with mutual respect, there were never any problems, so the answer it can be done.


I for one have no intention or desire to live under Islamic rule. How does Islam deal with people like me?


You are free to do whatever you want, that's your choice nobody is forcing you to embrace Islam, nobody forced me.

Now I just want to stop talking about religion, I honestly didn't come to this forum to discuss religion, and our differences, if however you prefer to live under this regime, in fear just in case Islam will take over, then please stay and live as you are, but not me.

Good luck, I am prepared to discuss other subjects about the NWO or how to bring them down, but as far as this topic is concerned I am not really interested.
Thank you

[major seven]

[QUOTE=adbasque;800346]No, I am not generalising, I am stating facts, all I am asking you is deal with them, and I don't listen to any Imam, my Imam are books, common sense, years of research, books of history, and you're certainly not going to teach me anything about Islam.


FM7
Right! And all your research came up with only TWO cases of theft in 700 years? So that explains all those muslims missing various body parts and muslims that will soon be missing body parts.
Your research is astounding.


Adbasque
And you just proved two things, you are not only a complete ignorant, but also what I suspected all a long, hatred pure and simple.


FM7
Your favorite statements to anybody that disagrees with you or Islam.
Go back and reread your stupid comments to Synergy or anybody else for that matter.


Adbasque
And fyi I am not an arab I am a caucasian who reverted to Islam, I was not born in a "sandBox" though if I were born in a sand box I would be proud of it.


FM7
Don't really care. But I can see you running around with Mohammud and the boys waving a sword and screaming ALLAH AKBAR and happily carving up the infidels.

[adbasque]

Hmm, I wonder if he'll get the message.

What is your message? maybe if you came clean and told me what is your message, I might get it.

If your message is to tell me that Islam is crap
then I won't get it no matter what you do or try it will not work
if your message is to undermine every muslim in the world I will not get it
which means there isn't a message there to get :-)


I have a question for you, why are you sooo concerned with Islam?

what is it that is making you so eager to bash it at every chance you get?

I didn't see you attacking Judaism or Christianity or any other form of faith, why are you picking on Islam if it's not pure hatred?

You see when I say you guys are full of hatred you deny it, but why are you always picking on Islam?

[adbasque]

FM7
Right! And all your research came up with only TWO cases of theft in 700 years? So that explains all those muslims missing various body parts and muslims that will soon be missing body parts.
Your research is astounding.


These are real facts I didn't make them up, not you or anybody is going to change them, so my advice is try and deal with the truth for once in your life, I know it can hurt sometimes.


FM7
Your favorite statements to anybody that disagrees with you or Islam.


It's not my favourite statement, it simply the truth, what do you want me to call you? you are an ignorant in this subject, you are talking without any evidence. it's all hear say ;)

Go back and reread your stupid comments to Synergy or anybody else for that matter.

I don't have to reread what I said, I know what I said


FM7
Don't really care. But I can see you running around with Mohammud and the boys waving a sword and screaming ALLAH AKBAR and happily carving up the infidels.

Well these comments are of an angry person and very childish reaction, the name is "Mohamed" by the way not Mohammud.

The reason that you are so angry is because, you are trying desperately to prove something that never existed, a badly done propaganda, tissue of lies, nothing to substantiate your arguments and nothing to support your allegations and it's all hear say.

I was right when I said most people are, repeaters and that's why they can't argue anymore.
And that's why I can't keep wasting my time here talking rubbish everyday, I came to this forum for a good cause, I thought we were all on one side, boy talk about brain wash, you can tell that you have been brain washed all these years and you are not fully out of it.

Your "Arguments" are the exact replica of what we heard on the news, news papers, magazines, zionist propaganda. almost word for word lolll
I pity you

Go and find someone else to pick a fight with I have better things to do with my time.

Good luck
btw no hard feelings ;)

[14april2000]

I came here to this forum, because for the first time I found people like me, trying to fight this establishment of tyranny, I didn't come here to discuss my religion, my faith or to attack anyone's faith, until I stumbled up on some people here attacking Islam, I cannot just accept those lies and shut up.

My main goal is to get some bleeding movement here to get rid of these tyrants whom are crippling humanity, and save our future generation from full fledged tyranny.

I am not interested in talking about Islam and other religions.
You believe what you want and I believe what I want, but we have a common enemy to fight right now.

Yes as for the Jesuits, the Black pope, the European royal families (impostors)
The knights Of Malta,
Count Hans Kolvenbach The Jesuit’s General
The NWO, the vatican is the most corrupt institution, the richest and the most powerful in the world today.

Even the Rothschilds are just generals of this institution, and Israel is the tool to build their empire.

Anyway I am off

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[mephibosheth]

What is your message? maybe if you came clean and told me what is your message, I might get it.


http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=799650&postcount=8



If your message is to tell me that Islam is crap
then I won't get it no matter what you do or try it will not work
if your message is to undermine every muslim in the world I will not get it
which means there isn't a message there to get :-)



http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=601252&postcount=6

I only have views on religion, no message. I'm not running for office, afterall.



I didn't see you attacking Judaism or Christianity or any other form of faith, why are you picking on Islam if it's not pure hatred?


http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=779499&postcount=93

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=766872&postcount=299

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=749392&postcount=11

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=727473&postcount=47

When it comes to ridiculousity, I'm an equal opportunity critic.



I have a question for you, why are you sooo concerned with Islam?

what is it that is making you so eager to bash it at every chance you get?

You see when I say you guys are full of hatred you deny it, but why are you always picking on Islam?


Only because people post about it.

There's lots of misconceptions out there, to be sure. But they're all based on something. No one could accuse Mohammed of being a pedophile if he didn't marry a 9 year old girl. No one would argue that Islam was not a religion of peace if there wasn't a rule to kill infidels where they stand. People wouldn't complain about Muslims if Imams weren't preaching wahabism in UK mosques. We wouldn't get upset about traditions if fathers didn't beat their daughters for not adhering to Islamic dress. We wouldn't question how much freedom and repsect is given to women if it didn't clearly state in the Quraan that a woman's testimony is worth 1/2 that of a man's.

I'm sure the Muslim appologist will provide book after book defending and explaining these things ad nauseum. And for many, they will demonstrate how the misconception is unfounded. But for others, there is no answer. For some things the only final answer is 'because Mohammed did/said so'.

And he only did so because an angel told him to.

That's where the magnificent 'logic' of Islam falls to pieces for me.




Meanwhile, for your edification:

A simple faith.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48580

8)

[adbasque]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=799650&postcount=8





http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=601252&postcount=6

I only have views on religion, no message. I'm not running for office, afterall.




http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=779499&postcount=93

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=766872&postcount=299

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=749392&postcount=11

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=727473&postcount=47

When it comes to ridiculousity, I'm an equal opportunity critic.




Only because people post about it.

There's lots of misconceptions out there, to be sure. But they're all based on something. No one could accuse Mohammed of being a pedophile if he didn't marry a 9 year old girl. No one would argue that Islam was not a religion of peace if there wasn't a rule to kill infidels where they stand. People wouldn't complain about Muslims if Imams weren't preaching wahabism in UK mosques. We wouldn't get upset about traditions if fathers didn't beat their daughters for not adhering to Islamic dress. We wouldn't question how much freedom and repsect is given to women if it didn't clearly state in the Quraan that a woman's testimony is worth 1/2 that of a man's.

I'm sure the Muslim appologist will provide book after book defending and explaining these things ad nauseum. And for many, they will demonstrate how the misconception is unfounded. But for others, there is no answer. For some things the only final answer is 'because Mohammed did/said so'.

And he only did so because an angel told him to.

That's where the magnificent 'logic' of Islam falls to pieces for me.




Meanwhile, for your edification:

A simple faith.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48580

8)

You obviously got all the answers, no matter what I post you only read what you want, and If you really want to know, do your search and find out, the truth.
But if you are happy to remain in ignorance and keep spreading the same false argument, go right ahead enjoy yourself.
But this where I get off, this is my stop.

For an intelligent person that you claim to be, you only look at the black area, I just wanted to point out, that in life there are three areas, the black the white and the grey area, but you in your arguments, you only chose the first words of each case.

9 year old girl
wife beaters
you don't try to find out more, because you are happy to just twist facts to feed your hatred, this is not a criticism attitude it's a hatred, no I rephrase this, this is more than just hatred, you despise it.

And it's not enough to bash it, but you have to do it on daily basis with a completely false allegations.

For those two aforementioned favourite arguments of yours, I am telling there is more to it than meets they eye, if you're keen to look further, and if you're happy to maintain your ridiculously false information, that's your choice.

This is my last message because we are not going anywhere, we are going around in circles, and more over, you are not the type who's seeking any truth, it gives you pleasure to spread false information and try to distort the facts.

[major seven]

adbasque;800587]These are real facts I didn't make them up, not you or anybody is going to change them, so my advice is try and deal with the truth for once in your life, I know it can hurt sometimes.


FM7
So the "real facts" are there has only been two thefts in 700 years under Islamic rule.
Well, I'm sure we won't be seeing any proof or evidence for those facts, but yet you do expect me to "deal with the truth" of those theoretical facts.
And then you carry on and on about the rest of us not having any evidence to substantiate our arguments. But based on your most learned advice and nothing else, I'm suppose to "deal with the truth" and "real facts" of your assertions? Yeah that'll happen!
Well it does seem to me that there is some proof for something here, and that is you must be out of your freaking Islamic saturated mind to even make such an absurd statement.
I have no doubt whatever that you believe it, making you a prime candidate for some of your very own psychanalysis.
Really Adman! Pull up a couch and shrink yourself for once.
You claim the rest of us only see what we want to see, but I can say the same about you, not to mention that problem you have with your own anger management.
Really Adbasque! Your posts drip vitriole like blood off Mohammud's sword.
You claim to be up on muslim history, yet you carry on about the Crusades
just like the rest of the fanatics hiding out in caves.
You sound just like one of them "repeater" people you just railed against. So your happy repeating the same crap without bothering to look at your own Islamic version of crusading which I have little doubt was even more brutal than the Europeans.
I do try to take a balanced view on things, and I started out with a neutral opinion on what Islam is all about and attempted to learn where the fanatics are coming from. From what I can see, they are coming streight out of your very own literature with a little extra interpretive help by fanatic imams.
Now, I've read the bible and a lot of it many times. Its not hard to see where the Kor'an takes a hard left with a new twist on the old stories. Its kinda like Muhammed took a few pages from the Jews Torah, crumpled it up and tore it into little pieces and then told one of his lackeys to go fetch the scoth tape and put all the pieces back together and then added a few things of his own.
For instance, your version of Allah's paradise is every young mans wet dream come true. Its no wonder your average young suicide bomber can't wait to get there.


Adbasque
Well these comments are of an angry person and very childish reaction, the name is "Mohamed" by the way not Mohammud.


FM7
A lot of different spellings and mostly with two M's even on pro-islam sites.
They seem to prefer Muhammad.


Adbasque
And that's why I can't keep wasting my time here talking rubbish everyday, I came to this forum for a good cause, I thought we were all on one side, boy talk about brain wash, you can tell that you have been brain washed all these years and you are not fully out of it.


FM7
Really? You thought we were all on one side? Now why would you think that especially on a religion forum.
And I can just as easily say that it is YOU that is brainwashed.


Adbasque
Your "Arguments" are the exact replica of what we heard on the news, news papers, magazines, zionist propaganda. almost word for word lolll
I pity you


FM7
LOL! You haven't even begun to hear my arguments and neither will you.
Keep your phony pity and save it for yourself.
You made your bed with Muhammud and now you can get to sleep with him.
History and your own literature has painted a picture of what he really is and the chaos in the world that followed in his wake, but you are totally fine with that.
And that is what is truly scary.


Adbasque
Go and find someone else to pick a fight with I have better things to do with my time.


FM7
Well, you came here looking for a fight, and you got what you came here for.


Adbasque
Good luck
btw no hard feelings


FM7
OK Adman! Thanks!

[mephibosheth]

Oh FFS...



You obviously got all the answers


Yes, apparently so...:rolleyes:



no matter what I post you only read what you want


And no matter what I post, you feel inclined to keep pigeon-holing me into your preconceived notion of what my 'message' is and where I'm coming from.



9 year old girl
wife beaters
you don't try to find out more, because you are happy to just twist facts to feed your hatred, this is not a criticism attitude it's a hatred, no I rephrase this, this is more than just hatred, you despise it.


If you bothered to read the links I posted, you'd clearly see that this perception of yours is false.



And it's not enough to bash it, but you have to do it on daily basis with a completely false allegations.


False.



For those two aforementioned favourite arguments of yours, I am telling there is more to it than meets they eye, if you're keen to look further, and if you're happy to maintain your ridiculously false information, that's your choice.


Which favorite arguments are those?

My friend, you haven't responded directly to any critical assessment posted in this thread. Instead you start raging on about how people are bashing Islam and spouting hatred. And then, most helpful of all, the ultimate cop-out of 'go look further'.

Well I have looked further. And when I do, I usually find something distasteful to my personal sensibilities.

Most of all, when I see something that at the very outset appears ludicrous, irrational, or suspicious, why should I bother to 'look further'? If there's an unanswerable question hanging over the whole thing, then the whole enterprise is suspect. That's the case I find with Islam. But then again, it is interesting to learn more about the various practices, and to read the endless justifications that Muslims produce to rationalize their way of life. Some are practical, some are valuable, others appear archaic, unnecessary, and inhibitive. And, like many religions propped up around a cult of personality, when there is no other 'rational' answer, the final response is always 'Mohammed said/did so, and therefore you should to'. That, in a nutshell, is the whole basis of the hadith.

Anyway, I'm always learning more. And as I do, no doubt I will attain more clarity into the 'true' Muslim view on things.



This is my last message because we are not going anywhere, we are going around in circles, and more over, you are not the type who's seeking any truth, it gives you pleasure to spread false information and try to distort the facts.


Again, if you took five minutes to read my other posts as linked above, you might come to a different conclusion. But then again, just like you accuse me of doing, you have no intention of trying to understand others, and feel content in simply repeating your baseless accusations and glossing over fine distinctions. I get it. People can't be bothered to read posts online. We scan and gloss. We don't pause and reflect.

I'm not your enemy. Your dogma is your enemy.

cheerio,

8)

[eternal_spirit]

If your message is to tell me that Islam is crapYes!


I have a question for you, why are you sooo concerned with Islam?
Have you read the first pages and anything else on this thread "such info is a cause for concern" before you posted?


I didn't see you attacking Judaism or Christianity or any other form of faith, why are you picking on Islam if it's not pure hatred?:D
You've not read many posts then around the religious forums. This is rich coming from a convert of Islam. Islam teaches hate and destruction of none Islamic people.

You see when I say you guys are full of hatred you deny it, but why are you always picking on Islam?


Back to the realities of Islam now

This is rich coming from a convert of Islam. Islam teaches hate and destruction of none Islamic people.

When you maybe one day wake up to the sick evil reality Islam is, will you want to leave Islam? Your fellow Muslims will kill you if you leave the religion, that's what Islam instructs them to do.

So you willingly mutilated your penis when you converted, will you be genitally mutilating your children also if you have them or when you have them as part of their initiation into Islam?

And would you have your wife sentenced to death by hanging, beheading or stoning if she comitted adultery?

Do you agree that chopping off of hands and feet for sometimes petty crimes is justified?

[adbasque]

adbasque;800587]These are real facts I didn't make them up, not you or anybody is going to change them, so my advice is try and deal with the truth for once in your life, I know it can hurt sometimes.

[QUOTE=major seven;801667]
FM7
So the "real facts" are there has only been two thefts in 700 years under Islamic rule.
Well, I'm sure we won't be seeing any proof or evidence for those facts, but yet you do expect me to "deal with the truth" of those theoretical facts.


Yes, just the same way you presented evidence of your allegations about Islam :)
If you bring accusations, you need to bring evidence to support them, in a court of law innocent until
proven guilty.
You are accusing Islam and you want me to run around and fetch the evidence to counter your allegations?
LOl if you want to find the truth get off your backside and search it for yourself, if you are happy with your lies then stay as you are.


And then you carry on and on about the rest of us not having any evidence to substantiate our arguments. But based on your most learned advice and nothing else, I'm suppose to "deal with the truth" and "real facts" of your assertions? Yeah that'll happen!


Yes you (all people who started this thread) started this thread I did not start it, then you have to show your evidence I mean strong irrefutable evidence I mean real evidence based on your own research not hear say, and repeat what others have repeatedly said
Those are not evidence nobody could prove anything, pure speculations, or half stories.


Well it does seem to me that there is some proof for something here, and that is you must be out of your freaking Islamic saturated mind to even make such an absurd statement.


There's no need for personal attacks, calling my mind a freaking, or saturated, show me your evidence, if you are accusing me personally or otherwise show your evidence,
And you want me to consult for Anger management? if anyone reads this he would determine who's angry you or me

I have no doubt whatever that you believe it, making you a prime candidate for some of your very own psychoanalysis.


You bet, I never claim or do anything unless I am absolutely certain, unlike you accusing without a shred of evidence, your arguments based purely on, total ignorance of the reality, based on double standard, I'll explain what I mean by this.
You and people like you, always accusing the media and the press, to be controlled, but when the latter attacks the Muslim world, Muslim values, and Islam in general, you heartedly agree with them, without asking any questions.

How do I know that? easy, most of your arguments, we've heard them on TV programmes, on news press, and recent events, and mostly from the real people who hate Islamic values, without even going any deeper to fully understand, not because they ignore they are there, no in a contrary, they don't want to go any deeper in case the truth pops up.

For instance they use key words, if someone says, "I will kill all infidels that are attacking my country" they will cut it down to "I will kill all infidels of Islam" these kinds of things, we've seen it time and time again.


Really Adman! Pull up a couch and shrink yourself for once.
You claim the rest of us only see what we want to see, but I can say the same about you, not to mention that problem you have with your own anger management.


I have replied to this above


Really Adbasque! Your posts drip vitriole like blood off Mohammud's sword.
You claim to be up on muslim history, yet you carry on about the Crusades
just like the rest of the fanatics hiding out in caves.
You sound just like one of them "repeater" people you just railed against. So your happy repeating the same crap without bothering to look at your own Islamic version of crusading which I have little doubt was even more brutal than the Europeans.


Again, prejudgements, where did I carry on about crusades?
For the fanatics hiding in the caves, this is very racist comment, I will ignore it
and if I were a fanatic hiding in the cave, so I take it my laptop is plugged into the tree behind me

As for a repeater, now you are using my own words against me, can you please show me what did I repeat?
Everything I am saying is from my own observations, and they're not dated from last night, these are the result of more than 20 years of personal research.

I did not become Muslim, because I had nothing better to do with my life, I have been through religions and human values for years, I read more books than you can even handle, I have half a room full of all sorts of books
some of the books you can't even buy them, because they were not allowed, and people like you never get to see them.

And to be honest I didn't need them the Holy Quoran alone is more than enough, Islam is not just a religion
it is a way of life. (do your research)


I do try to take a balanced view on things, and I started out with a neutral opinion on what Islam is all about and attempted to learn where the fanatics are coming from. From what I can see, they are coming streight out of your very own literature with a little extra interpretive help by fanatic imams.


First your opinion is nowhere near neutral, if this is neutral god help us when it is not :D lol
Well for your information I am a Muslim for myself and others if they want my help
I am first a human being, second a Muslim, third a mortal, life's too short to waste it in argument
and for my literature hahaha, what is my literature? how much do you know about me? humm

It sounds like you have a hidden camera in my house, strange, you know this much about me, and I still don't know who you are LOL


Now, I've read the bible and a lot of it many times. Its not hard to see where the Kor'an takes a hard left with a new twist on the old stories. Its kinda like Muhammed took a few pages from the Jews Torah, crumpled it up and tore it into little pieces and then told one of his lackeys to go fetch the scoth tape and put all the pieces back together and then added a few things of his own.

I am not sure whether I would reply to this or not, it's so childish, but I will for the sake of it.
You see what I mean when I say, you haven't got the foggiest idea what Islam is all about
except the few lies you were fed by Fox News and television.

You never studied anything, you listen to repeaters and you login to a forums like these and pretend you know it all.
But from your arguments, well if we can call them arguments, you increasingly prove my point
and prove your lack of knowledge, can you see now why I get not just tired, but also bored to reply to these kinds of comments.

And if you had any knowledge whatsoever you'd know that Mohamed (saws) peace be upon him, was illiterate
never went to school, he could not write nor read, never mind him reading another language which was Hebrew
As I said you are delusional and your hatred blinds you, so it makes impossible for you to see anything.

For instance, your version of Allah's paradise is every young mans wet dream come true. Its no wonder your average young suicide bomber can't wait to get there.


I don't know any average young man, they are NOT mine Lol, everyone is for himself, and if you've heard about hypnosis, or brainwashing teenagers, and the techniques used by everybody, and even if it's the case

they are defending their countries, from invaders that you support, you claim to live in "Demon Cracy" and you claim that you have elected your leaders, therefore you have the power to stop them invading someone else's country, they won't have to blow themselves up.

Japanese did the same thing, they didn't expect to go to Paradise, they did it out of desperate measure.
when you were asleep in you bedroom, with your headphones on, listening to the same garbage you spilling here
that same young man, was having his sisters and brothers either killed or raped in front of him with the gun barrel at his head. you dig?


FM7
Really? You thought we were all on one side? Now why would you think that especially on a religion forum.
And I can just as easily say that it is YOU that is brainwashed.


It was a mistake, I was looking at it on a human level, yes you're right on this one, we are not, and probably never be on the same side.
You'd rather be sucked dry by your true masters then taking a chance, that maybe Islam is not such a bad thing after all.
And I am pretty convinced you won't do a thing about it, you will come here and moan about it, or maybe not, you probably one of them who knows, after all even Bush didn't sound that full of hatred, I know you said this is my preferred statement, but it's true every word you ever say is either from anger or hate.




FM7
LOL! You haven't even begun to hear my arguments and neither will you.
Keep your phony pity and save it for yourself.
You made your bed with Muhammud and now you can get to sleep with him.
History and your own literature has painted a picture of what he really is and the chaos in the world that followed in his wake, but you are totally fine with that.
And that is what is truly scary.


I won't bother replying to childish remarks, but for what it's worth I'd say this
I don't want to hear any of your so called "Arguments" lol if we call them arguments, what a joke, they sound more like insults not plausible arguments, they simply reflect your true nature.
And for scary live a scary life instead of finding out the truth.



FM7
Well, you came here looking for a fight, and you got what you came here for.


I certainly did not come here to fight, I came here to this "Board" to find people like me the "true truth seekers" and do something about this world and global Tyranny, that is making everyone's life a misery and working people against others, with the help of people like you, instead of uniting people they divide them so they can rule us effectively
But I doubt you will ever understand this it's way beyond your intellectual capacities, it's not insult it's a simple analysis, not a psychoanalysis

Adbasque
Good luck
btw no hard feelings


I don't know why you keep calling me Adman, but who cares, maybe the FM7 means F*** Muslims, who knows? and who cares.

[turbine]

I'd rather die fighting it tbh. But since the UK will never to over taken by it I don't fear it at all. I just see it as the joke that it is. :)

[tjohn]

I have read few posts about this subject, and I am very disappointed with some of the posts, mainly when you think finally people have grasped the whole thing and then suddenly you realise, that there still a lot of ignorance around.

Let me explain few points I have read so far:

First of all let me start by saying, there's no such thing as an Islamic Nation today, none whatsoever, the people are Muslims but no government is Islamist, I can defy anyone who can prove me wrong.Is it a government that is a nation or is a nation the people?

Also, are the people Muslim (or other religion) or is religion something they have been misled into believing about themselves (and others), as a means of control? .....what I cannot stand is a repeater, a parrot.:rolleyes: :D Yes, all the trouble in the world is about people being given false identities.

[void]

I have a copy of the Koran and Im sure that it state that muslims should not attack people unless they are actually hostile. It states that if people wish to keep peace with Islam then they should be left alone.

Sure, that's how it is 'supposed' to be, but from the very first years of Islam the old chestnut of - "My neighbours appear like they 'might' be hostile to me in future, so I'd better do something about it while we have a chance" (still used today by our nations and others) which was used as a pretext to invade and take over the entire near east and parts of central asia, and with subsequent Caliphs, much further afield. Attempts to get Jewish tribes on board into accepting Islam, didn't work. Initially Muhammad had every Muslim pray towards Jerusalem in order to get the Jews on board the train of Islam, and other concessions that emulated Judaism. When the Jews didn't chase the carrot and accept Islam as superior than what Muhammad saw as outdated and corrupt Judaism, Muhammad's armys turned to violence against them instead. With surrounding empires, Muslim emissaries were sent to them urging them to accept the enlightenment of Islam. When those empires declined, the pretext that because they declined, these empires were going to be trouble against Islam, was used to attack them in their state of weakness after those empires had long been battling with each other. Military form of Jihad is supposed to be defensive only, but as in all history, the idea - "The best form of defense is offense" was often used instead.

The Koran also mentions the 'people of the book' which to my mind includes muslims jews and christians, three religions having the same root.

All rooted in Abraham. Islam is basically "Judaism Lite" (available at registered outlets), as it's basically Judaism in most aspects,much simplified and without the heirachy (even though once the Caliphates began, the heirachys and clergy so to speak raised their head again as in Christianity and Judaism).

[thirdwave]

Islam is bad news. You want me to go easy on you or tell it like it is? Or will you find out for yourself, we've had many convos before.


if you understand that Islam is bad news... then its mind boggling how you don't understand that organised religion is bad news full stop...

you are not exposing anything if you look to put one down and glorify another which is what you do...

if you look through history then you will see that all religions have done evil things through time.... Islam is simply one that still has the power and hangs over many in the world today.

are you saying that no one in the past has killed people for not being a Christian?.. or for blaspheming a Jew messiah?

Islam, Judaism, and Christianity as much as many more are all polluted tools used by the elite. FACT.

[thirdwave]

2. now suppose somebody, after listening to all the logics dont want to become a muslim, muslims ask him to remain the waay he was but pay jizya, for then muslims then accept him as a resident in their nation and use that jizya to pay all the expenses for his protection.

is that not like them saying that the Rich are free to not convert to Muslims but the poor must convert or die?.. quite fitting for a good few rich people I know.

it might seem logical, but the mere fact you are being made to have a view point and "submit" which is what Islam means, in its self is a sign then one is not free.

everyone should have the right and the free will to Submit to what and whom they want to.

I do not believe the Muslim religion is any worse than any other religion... it is simple more to the book and more people apply it more thoroughly.... with Christianity you have Christians that actually ignore certain parts of it...so on...

[eternal_spirit]

if you understand that Islam is bad news... then its mind boggling how you don't understand that organised religion is bad news full stop...

you are not exposing anything if you look to put one down and glorify another which is what you do...

if you look through history then you will see that all religions have done evil things through time.... Islam is simply one that still has the power and hangs over many in the world today.

are you saying that no one in the past has killed people for not being a Christian?.. or for blaspheming a Jew messiah?

Islam, Judaism, and Christianity as much as many more are all polluted tools used by the elite. FACT.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44639
I agree there is control of people via religions.
Funny that you only attack Christianity never Judaism or Islam why is that? Read what Islam is about there's many examples of how evil it is just on this thread.

[eternal_spirit]

What actually happens to Apostates who are caught in Muslim countries?



Iran Ruhollah Rowhani, 52, was executed in 1998 for converting to the Baha'i faith from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). The US State Department has called on Iran "to protect (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) the lives of 15 other imprisoned Baha'is. Three of them, Ata'ullah Hamid Nasirizadih, Sirus Dhabih- Magadamme and Hidayad Kashifi, have already been sentenced to death. Moderate President Khatami can do little to help as the courts are controlled by religious hardliners.
The Reverend Mehdi Dibaj had converted from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) 45 years ago. On 21/12/93 he was sentenced to death on charges of apostasy. Released on appeal his body was found on 5 July 1994. The Reverend Haik Mehr, Superintendent of the Church of the Assemblies of God, who had campaigned against Dibaj's death sentence was found dead on 20/1/94. On 2 July 1994 the body of the Reverend Tatavous Michaelian, Chairman of the Council of Protestant Ministers in Iran was found with several gun shots to the head.
Egypt (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) We wish to raise what, at first glance, may appear to be an inconsequential or even humorous matter [at least in Australia where a good proportion of partners are unmarried]. A Cairo (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) court has ordered the divorce of a couple who wish to stay together. Islamists (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) have claimed that Professor Nasser Hamed Abu Zaid is guilty of heresy in writing that "Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)'s teachings should evolve with changes in society." However, a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) cannot be married to a heretic, a non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). He and his wife (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html), Ibtihal, also an academic have appealed against the ruling and can remain together for the time being. However if the prosecution stands, they could lose their jobs or even be killed .by fanatics as "adulterers ("living in sin") or as apostates ("deserters of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)") [From "Some Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) History]
While there are, as yet, no laws against apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the missionary or the convert may be convicted on other charges, for example "threatening social peace (http://www.peacefaq.com/peace.html) and intercommunal relations". There is, however, a Supreme Court ruling that a Moslem (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who apostacises is legally dead. He loses all rights and powers. He cannot withdraw funds from his accounts. Any person who kills him does not commit murder from a legal point of view because he is already legally dead. The "dead" person cannot marry or inherit. Nor is it possible for an apostate to have his identity card changed to "Christian (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html)". More than one hundred and fifty Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who have adopted Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) have been detained in maximum-security (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) prisons. They have been accused of threatening national unity. One example from a Copt (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html)ic press release, concerned the case of Dr. Abdul-Rahman who has been held in Cairo (http://www.peacefaq.com/egypt.html) without trial for two years for breaking with Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). He is in solitary confinement but his will has not been broken. He is undoubtedly being used as a warning to anyone else contemplating apostasy




Sudan Bit by bit the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) fundamentalists, the Ikhwan, were able to consolidate their power in Khartoum. In September 1983 a version of Shariah, the "September Law" was introduced. Many floggings, amputations and stonings were carried out. Incorporated in the law was ijtihad or "free interpretation". If the qazi was unable to find a relevant (http://www.peacefaq.com/palestine.html) law to convict a defendant he could search the Qur'an (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and Hadith (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) at his discretion. For example Mahmoud Taha, the 76 year old leader of the Republican Brothers was hanged in January 1985 for apostasy, although it was not a crime at that time.
A number of southerners living in the north had changed their names to Arabic (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html) ones to improve their business prospects. They discovered that they had done a dangerous thing; now they were expected to be practising Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and could not use their original names without being subject to the death penalty for apostasy. Similarly at risk were non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) families who adopted Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) or an Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) name so that they could qualify for relief supplies during a famine. Also trapped were non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) men who had "embraced" Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) so that they could marry Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) women (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) or to be able to obtain easy divorces.
15/7/98 Mekki Kuku is held in a Khartoum jail awaiting trial on a charge of apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to Christianity (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html). Sudan has the death penalty for "deserting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)."
Mauritania "Every Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) guilty of the crime of apostasy, whether by word or action, will be invited to repent over a period of three days. If he does not repent within this time limit, he is to be condemned to death as an apostate and his property will be confiscated by the Treasury
Every Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) who refuses to pray will be invited to fulfill the obligation of prayer in the prescribed time limit. .. If he persists in his refusal he will be punished by the death penalty."
India (http://www.peacefaq.com/india.html) The Muhtasib saw to it that the Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) did not omit the five daily prayers and the fasts of Ramadan. State musicians and singers were pensioned off. The death penalty for apostasy from Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) was enforced.
Rushdie claimed (1985) to be a non-Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and so is not bound by Shariah blasphemy (http://www.peacefaq.com/blasphemy.html) laws. If he was born of Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) parents then the Shariah does not allow him to leave Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) even in childhood. The penalty under Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) law for apostasy is death. Did you know that Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) religious law to rate as equal to existing British law? A British Pakistani (http://www.peacefaq.com/india.html) father murdered his daughter (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) for converting to a Jehovah's Witness. He would, of course, have been acquitted, under Shariah which the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) fundamentalists are trying to bring into England. leaders in Britain want
Chechnya Theologians from Chechnya and Dagestan ordered Muslims (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) to carry out the death sentence against Gov. Aman Tuleyev "at the first possible opportunity". He has been accused of being baptized as an Orthodox Christian (http://www.peacefaq.com/christians.html) on June 25.
The death penalty for apostasy ("deserting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)") is not Qur'anic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) but it is Shariah (Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Law) as Prophet Muhammad (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) executed a number of apostates.
Tuleyev denies the report that he had been baptized and says he is not religious. Thus he is still technically an apostate as, being of Kazakh origin, he is "a member of a predominantly Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) ethnic (http://www.peacefaq.com/race.html) group" as the theologians say.
Libya Indeed, the only Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) author to have cast doubts on male circumcision has had legal action brought against him and might be sentenced to death for apostasy. I am speaking of (retired) Judge Mustafa Kamal Al-Mahdawi, a personal friend of mine, who is today under a ferocious attack lead by Libyan religious circles in the mosques as well in the press. The preacher of the Mosque of the Prophet (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html), in Medina, Saudi Arabia (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html), published in July 1992 a pamphlet handed out free of charge in Libya. In this pamphlet, he asks the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Arab (http://www.peacefaq.com/arabs.html) League and the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) Conference to set up a collective fatwa (http://www.peacefaq.com/jihad.html) of all Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) scholars against this judge and to execute him as an apostate if he does not retract. As for his book, the preacher asks that it be removed from the shelves, burned and forbidden to any reader. He blames the judge for having, among other things, denied that male circumcision is compulsory when there is unanimity in favour of it and when Mohammed (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) was Himself circumcised 54.


Why is Apostacy such a terrible crime in Islam?



Apostasy (Irtidad) in Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) ?If a person is raised in a society which protects (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) his soul from the impurities of kufr and shirk, or if a person is shown the Right Path accepts it willingly - can such a person reject the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) faith? Is he allowed to apostate (become murtad)? Can he declare that he does not believe in God, Prophet Muhammad (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) and the Day of Judgement?
Once a person enters into the fold of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the rules change. As soon as you become a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) by your own choice, you are expected to submit yourself to Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) totally and completely. "O You who believe! Enter into submission, kaffatan!" (2:208) he surrenders the right of making decisions to Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and His Messenger. No believing man and no believing woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) has a choice in their own affairs when Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and His Messenger have decided on an issue." (33:36)
Now even the question of apostasy, irtidad or deserting of one's faith, for a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), becomes a shar'i/religious issue - even in this issue he is governed by the laws of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). And Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate.After coming into the fold of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), rejection of the fundamentals is not tolerated. If there are doubts in your mind about the fundamental beliefs of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), then discuss, question, debate, study and solve them BUT you are not allowed to leave Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), desert your own fitra!
On the issue of openly rejecting Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) cannot just stand aside and see one of its followers going astray. It would allow discussions to understand and solve the problems, but not allow its followers to lower themselves from the sublime status of "surrendering to the will of Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)-Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html)" to the status of those "who have hearts but do not understand, ears but do not hear, and eyes but do not see."
Apostasy is Equal to Treason Why does Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) not allow apostasy? Apostasy or irtidad in Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) is equal to treason. ?In Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), the concept of treason is not limited to political and military affairs, it also has a spiritual and cultural dimension to it. In the Islamic (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) order of sacredness, Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) then the Prophet (http://www.peacefaq.com/muhammad.html) and then the Qur'an (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) occupy the highest positions. Tawhid, nubuwwa, and qiyama form the constitution (http://www.peacefaq.com/democracy.html) of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Just as upholding and protecting (http://www.peacefaq.com/security.html) the constitution (http://www.peacefaq.com/democracy.html) of a country is a sign of patriotism, and undermining it is a form of treason - in the same way open rejection of the fundamental beliefs of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) by a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) is an act of treason. Apostasy i.e. the public declaration of rejecting the fundamentals of Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html), has also negative influence on the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) society, it is indeed a major fitna.
And that is why Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) has prescribed harsh punishment for irtidad. It must be emphasized that irtidad which we are dicussing here involves open rejection without any force and with the realization of what one's statements or actions imply. The punishment prescibed by the shari'a for apostasy is death.
Even the terms used by the shari'a for apostates give the idea of treason to this whole phenomenon. "Murtad" means apostate. Murtad can be of two types: fitri and milli. (1) Murtad Fitri means a person born of a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) parent and then he rejects Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Fitri means nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html) or natural. The term "murtad fitri" implies that the person has apostacized from his nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html), the nature (http://www.peacefaq.com/frogtale.html) of believing in God. (2) "Murtad Milli" means a person who converted to Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then later on he rejects Islam (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html). Milli is from millat which means a community. The term "murtad milli" implies that the person that the person has apostacized from his community.
In the first case, the apostasy is like treason against God, whereas in the second case, the apostasy is like treason against the Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) community. Probably, that is why there is also a difference in dealing with these two kinds of murtad.
A former kafir who becomes a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then apostates (Murtad Milli) is given a second chance; if he repents then he is not to be killed.
But one who is born as a Muslim (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) and then apostates (Murtad Fitri) he is to be killed even if he repents. His repentance might be accepted by Allah (http://www.peacefaq.com/islam.html) but he still has to go through the punishment prescibed for his treason in this world.
This punishment is only applicable in case of apostasy by men; in case of women (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) the punishment is not death but life imprisonment. And if such a woman (http://www.peacefaq.com/women.html) repents, then her repentance is accepted and the punishment is suspended.
(Excerpts from "Left Shoe News (http://www.hraic.org.uk/)")

http://www.peacefaq.com/apostacy.html
Muslims fear they'll be killed by muslims if they leave Islam

[thirdwave]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44639
I agree there is control of people via religions.
Funny that you only attack Christianity never Judaism or Islam why is that? Read what Islam is about there's many examples of how evil it is just on this thread.

Dear me your ignorance on these subjects never fails to amaze me, you are a truly an all time great lol

Its a question that cant be answered because you are making up a view point you want me to have, one of which I don't have lol.

I have never once, EVER, singled out any religion as the worst... And If anything I have implied at times that Judaism has the most bullshit texts of the lot..., I have never started a thread about Christianity and how wrong it is, I have simply contributed to the endless threads started by others (mostly bible thumpers who think Jesus will save the world from the NWO)... why would I start talking about Jews or Muslims on a Christian thread?? ... just to please you?

I refer back to my last post...

The fact you see the corruption that is in Islam but fail to see it in all religions is mind boggling and exposes how you are a victim of such movements.

And I point out AGAIN the deaths created BY ALL RELIGIONS

("All" means each of that in questions is included)

You make me laugh... you try to uphold one religion and put another down... when someone comes along to point out they are all the same you accuse them of taking sides LOL.

better to laugh than cry I say.

[major seven]

Adbasque
These are real facts I didn't make them up, not you or anybody is going to change them, so my advice is try and deal with the truth for once in your life, I know it can hurt sometimes.

FM7
Hey Adbasque
OK! Just to review, you say there have been only TWO cases of "theft" under islamic rule in the last 700 years, right?
In the interest of fairness I thought I'd share with whoever might care some of your pro-islam sites.
Heres one I came across on "Islam And The Concept of Punishment"
www.islam4all.com/newpage18.htm

You might find this interesting.
In the article there is this little line.
"The fact that the punishment for theft has been executed only SIX TIMES throughout a period of FOUR HUNDRED years is a clear evidence that such punishment was primarily meant to prevent crime." (caps mine)

But that can't be!
You said that it was "The Truth" and "Real Facts" and "Nobody is going to change them" etc. etc.
And you even wanted me to accept your statements as TRUTH without a single shred of evidence for your stated assertions?
Interesting ain't it?
Why that is three times more cases in just over one half the time.
Clearly then you or these other guys can't both be right.
Or on the other hand, my best guess would be that you are both full of crap.

And to think that I was just about to leave to run down to the nearest mosque and sign up. I even had a color all picked out for a head scarf thing to complete that whole Arafat look that is so retro 60's :)

Now one might wonder what sort of criteria you are using to define "Theft"
Does kidnapping count? That would be theft of a person, Yes?
How about Mohammud plundering caravans to Mecca, or confiscating Jewish property?
In that case, Mohammad exceeded your "Two Cases" within seconds of his first caravan heist.
Was reading some history on the Bedouins recently and those guys make thieving from one tribe to another a national hobby. They did it before they became muslims and they certainly did afterwards up till no doubt even today somebody out there is missing some camels or whatever.
Now condidering Bedouin mindset and temperment, I wouldn't recommend calling any of those guys a thief and demand your camel back.
Unless you don't prefer your head in its present location anyway.
Those guys won't think your cool unless you can steal your camel back and hopefully not get caught.

Here is a little "Debate On Looting"
www.faithfreedom.org/debates/looting51122.htm

You might not want to read that one though.


Adbasque
Again, prejudgements, where did I carry on about crusades?


FM7
On 2/12/09 you posted under "True Colors"
"Muslims took people as slaves in war times, the Christian crusaders kill without mercy, women, children, elderly, disabled, its in the history books, I did not make it."
You mighta been a tad mad at the time and started writing on autopilot all the usual assertions muslims like to carry on about.
To balance your assertions I posted this link on Islamic Crusades
www.americanthinker.com/2005/11/the_truth_about_islamic_crusad.html
Looks like ya'll had a blast conquering, pillaging and plundering for 467 years or so before the First Crusade guys even got started up.
You sort of blew it at Toures, France in 732 though, but you were still having fun way after that.


Adbasque
For the fanatics hiding in the caves, this is very racist comment, I will ignore it
and if I were a fanatic hiding in the cave, so I take it my laptop is plugged into the tree behind me


FM7
Racist?
If there was an outlet nailed to the tree and the outlet was connected to a generator, sure; plug it in. LOL


Adbasque
As for a repeater, now you are using my own words against me, can you please show me what did I repeat?
Everything I am saying is from my own observations, and they're not dated from last night, these are the result of more than 20 years of personal research.


FM7
The Crusades?


Adbasque
I did not become Muslim, because I had nothing better to do with my life, I have been through religions and human values for years, I read more books than you can even handle, I have half a room full of all sorts of books
some of the books you can't even buy them, because they were not allowed, and people like you never get to see them.


FM7
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
I'm a carpenter by trade. Do you need some custom bookshelves?
You in England? I always wanted to see Stonehenge and drown some good English Pub ale


Adbasque
And to be honest I didn't need them the Holy Quoran alone is more than enough, Islam is not just a religion
it is a way of life. (do your research)


FM7
I heard that somewhere.
So is just following the basic "Ten Commandments".
Your assertions that I'm a liar are baseless.
I'm actually real good on all the Commandments.
I don't Lie, Cheat, Steal etc. etc.
I might on occasion "Covet" though, but certainly not any lady type people.
Still married to my one and only for 30 years.
Was thinking about coveting another guitar, but my wife thinks I have too many already. So now I got to think about coveting something else.


Adbasque
I am first a human being, second a Muslim, third a mortal, life's too short to waste it in argument
and for my literature hahaha, what is my literature? how much do you know about me? humm


FM7
Well I was mostly just thinking Koran and Hadith type stuff.
Why do you have a muslim equivalent of Shakespeare like maybe "Ali and Fatima"?


Adbasque
It sounds like you have a hidden camera in my house, strange, you know this much about me, and I still don't know who you are LOL


FM7
Well, you never asked.
You were too busy psychoanalyzing me.


Adbasque
And if you had any knowledge whatsoever you'd know that Mohamed (saws) peace be upon him, was illiterate
never went to school, he could not write nor read, never mind him reading another language which was Hebrew


FM7
Yeah I know. Probably too busy playing with his "booty" and figuring out how to get more.


Adbasque
As I said you are delusional and your hatred blinds you, so it makes impossible for you to see anything.


FM7
Nope!
Here are a couple more odds and ends as examples of
Muslim behavior with no Sharia laws to worry about in a free society.

Police officer in Australia experience.
www.faithfreedom.org/oped/TimPriest51225.htm

And whats going on with Sweden.
www.brusselsjournal.com/node/938

Not to mention Muslim gangs cropping up everywhere.
In theory, this kind of behavior should be none existent even outside of the fear of Sharia law.



Adbasque
they are defending their countries, from invaders that you support, you claim to live in "Demon Cracy" and you claim that you have elected your leaders, therefore you have the power to stop them invading someone else's country, they won't have to blow themselves up.
Japanese did the same thing, they didn't expect to go to Paradise, they did it out of desperate measure.
when you were asleep in you bedroom, with your headphones on, listening to the same garbage you spilling here
that same young man, was having his sisters and brothers either killed or raped in front of him with the gun barrel at his head. you dig?



FM7
There you go repeating again.
As I"ve mentioned elsewhere the muslims have been attacking Jews in their ancient homeland since after WWI since they finally had a chance to reestablish what they lost. They even outnumbered and outgunned the Jews by 10-15 to 1 and tried to obliterate them numerous times and have failed miserably.


Adbasque
You'd rather be sucked dry by your true masters then taking a chance, that maybe Islam is not such a bad thing after all.


FM7
Depends if you think world domination by muslims is a good thing or not.
Personally I don't need any neighbors like those poor Swedes got.


Adbasque
And I am pretty convinced you won't do a thing about it,


FM7
Do about what?
What are you going to do? Go tell Hamas to quit throwing rockets at Israel and maybe they won't blow up their wife and kids in return?
Yeah! That'll work!
You think the Palestinians will ever give up their Bedouin mentality?
Not a chance!
Revenge is also a way of life.


Adbasque
I certainly did not come here to fight, I came here to this "Board" to find people like me the "true truth seekers" and do something about this world and global Tyranny, that is making everyone's life a misery and working people against others, with the help of people like you, instead of uniting people they divide them so they can rule us effectively


FM7
And how is that working out for you so far?
What do you see as the next NWO?


Adbasque
But I doubt you will ever understand this it's way beyond your intellectual capacities, it's not insult it's a simple analysis, not a psychoanalysis


FM7
LOL! OK Adman! Whatever!

[thirdwave]

Muslims fear they'll be killed by muslims if they leave Islam

no shit!

and I guess no other religions have been through that scenario :rolleyes:

[sophia_h]

Sure, that's how it is 'supposed' to be, but from the very first years of Islam the old chestnut of - "My neighbours appear like they 'might' be hostile to me in future, so I'd better do something about it while we have a chance" (still used today by our nations and others) which was used as a pretext to invade and take over the entire near east and parts of central asia, and with subsequent Caliphs, much further afield. Attempts to get Jewish tribes on board into accepting Islam, didn't work. Initially Muhammad had every Muslim pray towards Jerusalem in order to get the Jews on board the train of Islam, and other concessions that emulated Judaism. When the Jews didn't chase the carrot and accept Islam as superior than what Muhammad saw as outdated and corrupt Judaism, Muhammad's armys turned to violence against them instead. With surrounding empires, Muslim emissaries were sent to them urging them to accept the enlightenment of Islam. When those empires declined, the pretext that because they declined, these empires were going to be trouble against Islam, was used to attack them in their state of weakness after those empires had long been battling with each other. Military form of Jihad is supposed to be defensive only, but as in all history, the idea - "The best form of defense is offense" was often used instead.



All rooted in Abraham. Islam is basically "Judaism Lite" (available at registered outlets), as it's basically Judaism in most aspects,much simplified and without the heirachy (even though once the Caliphates began, the heirachys and clergy so to speak raised their head again as in Christianity and Judaism).



Thank you


void

you have just described Joe Stalins mind set !

love it !

get "them" before "they" get me/us

because we THINK THAT WAY

so they must also

paranoia exemplified


do more. :D

see why AH was so determined to keep
those murdering insane ones out of Europe !?


`

[kidsarocker]

Yes, but I've not seen any Jihad like texts by Hindus. We could be related bless :D It was just an example of Islamic fundamentalism and other religious persecution, which is a good reason my family reject religions.



Any fundamentalist religious group are NOT following the true path of their religion