6 reasons to NOT read the Qur'an or the Bible

[tjohn]

6 reasons to NOT read the Qur'an or the Bible & 1 reason to read them

1) They do not always tell the truth!
2) They are not inspired of God more than what I write on this page
3) They were written and are used for mind control and blind faith but I ask that we use reason rather than blind faith.
4) It’s not in our true nature to sin against good people or (the real) God.
5) God is not a man in the sky as such (this mostly applies to Judaism and Christianity)
6) God is in everything and in every cell of our body
7) Therefore we shouldn’t need to look outside ourselves for enlightenment although because humanity has been so brainwashed through religion, sometimes we do need to look in order to see where we have been deceived.

Can anyone really prove the above wrong – without quoting text from the Bible or the Qur'an?

I rest my case.

Take it away brothers and sisters and remember to think for yourselves, not blindly follow what you have been told to believe because of what is written in a ‘holy’ book or said by religious leaders…

[bario]

Within every myth is some fact.

[catfood]

I still think they are worth a read. but if you do think about it your self, i would be very surprised if there is nothing that can be gained from these books.

[kreesurgeon]

6 reasons to NOT read the Qur'an or the Bible & 1 reason to read them

1) They do not always tell the truth!
2) They are not inspired of God more than what I write on this page
3) They were written and are used for mind control and blind faith but I ask that we use reason rather than blind faith.
4) It’s not in our true nature to sin against good people or (the real) God.
5) God is not a man in the sky as such (this mostly applies to Judaism and Christianity)
6) God is in everything and in every cell of our body
7) Therefore we shouldn’t need to look outside ourselves for enlightenment although because humanity has been so brainwashed through religion, sometimes we do need to look in order to see where we have been deceived.

Can anyone really prove the above wrong – without quoting text from the Bible or the Qur'an?

I rest my case.

Take it away brothers and sisters and remember to think for yourselves, not blindly follow what you have been told to believe because of what is written in a ‘holy’ book or said by religious leaders…

I'm not religious and am not tying to be argumentative, I just wondered; Have you actually read the Bible or the Qua'an?

[serenevasaline]

6 reasons to NOT read the Qur'an or the Bible & 1 reason to read them

1) They do not always tell the truth!

Which bits are you refering to? and how do you know the truth?:D
5) God is not a man in the sky as such (this mostly applies to Judaism and Christianity)

When does it say that God is a man in the sky?
6) God is in everything and in every cell of our body

That's why Jesus said that the temple is within. :)

[marpat]

6 reasons to NOT read the Qur'an or the Bible & 1 reason to read them

1) They do not always tell the truth!
2) They are not inspired of God more than what I write on this page
3) They were written and are used for mind control and blind faith but I ask that we use reason rather than blind faith.
4) It’s not in our true nature to sin against good people or (the real) God.
5) God is not a man in the sky as such (this mostly applies to Judaism and Christianity)
6) God is in everything and in every cell of our body
7) Therefore we shouldn’t need to look outside ourselves for enlightenment although because humanity has been so brainwashed through religion, sometimes we do need to look in order to see where we have been deceived.

Can anyone really prove the above wrong – without quoting text from the Bible or the Qur'an?

I rest my case.

Take it away brothers and sisters and remember to think for yourselves, not blindly follow what you have been told to believe because of what is written in a ‘holy’ book or said by religious leaders…

Can you prove they are not inspired by God? as you are not the author then I would have to say that what you are doing is guessing.
How do you know it is not the nature of people to sin? people will do many evil things out of greed, lust, etc.

[tjohn]

I'm not religious and am not tying to be argumentative, I just wondered; Have you actually read the Bible or the Qua'an?I have studied the Bible for around 30 years (the first 8 or 10 of which was usually around three times a week). I have only read parts of the Qua'an (mostly online) but have seen enough to know that like the Bible, it is not infallible. They mix some truth with things that are not true and are used to brainwash and deceive people so religion has people following books and religious leaders (mostly out of fear)!

The simple yet unspeakable truths are deep inside us and we were not born to 'sin' or hurt others but that is learned along the way and religion is responsible for much evil in the world.

[tjohn]

Can you prove they are not inspired by God? as you are not the author then I would have to say that what you are doing is guessing.No, I am not guessing are you?

[reversi]

4) It’s not in our true nature to sin against good people or (the real) God.And how does reading Qur'an or the Bible constitute a sin against good people or (the real) God?

[lizzy]

6 reasons to NOT read the Qur'an or the Bible & 1 reason to read them

1) They do not always tell the truth!
2) They are not inspired of God more than what I write on this page
3) They were written and are used for mind control and blind faith but I ask that we use reason rather than blind faith.
4) It’s not in our true nature to sin against good people or (the real) God.
5) God is not a man in the sky as such (this mostly applies to Judaism and Christianity)
6) God is in everything and in every cell of our body
7) Therefore we shouldn’t need to look outside ourselves for enlightenment although because humanity has been so brainwashed through religion, sometimes we do need to look in order to see where we have been deceived.

Can anyone really prove the above wrong – without quoting text from the Bible or the Qur'an?

I rest my case.

Take it away brothers and sisters and remember to think for yourselves, not blindly follow what you have been told to believe because of what is written in a ‘holy’ book or said by religious leaders…

;)......there is nothing in them that a GOOD heart does not intuitively KNOW..

(the difference beteween a good act and a bad one )....

the exoteric /esoteric writings are a mind control business plan to enslave .......without it the poor would have rid themselves of all the rich 'USARY laws' ......merchant bankers centuries ago and the filth they promote.

[fromthatshow]

If you are going to read the Bible, I suggest reading A Course In Miracles first so you can get an accurate perspective.
After reading A Course In Miracles, I can see in the Bible what was perceived correctly and what was misperceived.

[madthumbs]

If you are going to read the Bible, I suggest reading A Course In Miracles first so you can get an accurate perspective.
After reading A Course In Miracles, I can see in the Bible what was perceived correctly and what was misperceived.

Wouldn't that be like saying you need to read man's word before God's word? I'm surprised at all the people that promote this sick barbaric religion and downplay it's root.

[haukipesukone]

1) They do not always tell the truth!
2) They are not inspired of God more than what I write on this page
3) They were written and are used for mind control and blind faith but I ask that we use reason rather than blind faith.
4) It’s not in our true nature to sin against good people or (the real) God.
5) God is not a man in the sky as such (this mostly applies to Judaism and Christianity)
6) God is in everything and in every cell of our body
7) Therefore we shouldn’t need to look outside ourselves for enlightenment although because humanity has been so brainwashed through religion, sometimes we do need to look in order to see where we have been deceived.

Parts 1-3 apply pretty much to all books. So we shouldn't read LOTR or Alice in Wonderland, because they do not always tell the truth, are not inspired by God, and are used for mind control?

Parts 4-6 do not seem to have anything to do with either the Bible or Qur'an.

Based on 7 you seem to think the only reason somebody would read aforementioned books is to find enlightenment. Can't one read them just out of curiosity?

[tjohn]

And how does reading Qur'an or the Bible constitute a sin against good people or (the real) God?By brainwashing people into the idea that repressive gods such as the cruel Hebrew god is God.

[thirdwave]

Within every myth is some fact.

does not make the myth very educational though..

[thirdwave]

I still think they are worth a read. but if you do think about it your self, i would be very surprised if there is nothing that can be gained from these books.

why?, if they have been corrupted then they were created not to inform people but the opposite.... there for, unless out of curiosity you would like to try and decipher what the books try to cover and manipulate then you are just risking taking in lies put there to create ignorance.

I would love to get my hands on some of the very original texts and have them translated correctly... I think they would have well been worth a read and paint a VERY different picture than the bible does.

[thirdwave]

Which bits are you refering to? and how do you know the truth?:D


how about stuff like this

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak .... If they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home."--1 Cor.14:38


When does it say that God is a man in the sky?

When it says that Jesus ascended into the sky when he died to go to heaven ... and where it says he will come back, I would have thought that's quite an implication... the problem is there are other texts that could argue this... but thats just the point, and why there have been many wars.


That's why Jesus said that the temple is within. :)

Im sure there are texts that state such thing, and the bible would not be the first to have shown them... but apparently women must ask their husbands..

[thirdwave]

Parts 1-3 apply pretty much to all books. So we shouldn't read LOTR or Alice in Wonderland, because they do not always tell the truth, are not inspired by God, and are used for mind control?

they are not used for mind control allthough you have a right to see them as that allthough I would love to hear what effect these stories have had on peoples minds??

IMO Its crazy that you would use 2 fantasy books in order to defend the fact that the bible does not speak truth.... the bible does not claim to be a fantasy book like the others you have listed.... and it certainly is not treated as a fantasy book ....*scratching head*

the one thing you have made clear is that the bible's story's are in fact no more real than the lord of the rings or Alice in wonderland.

Parts 4-6 do not seem to have anything to do with either the Bible or Qur'an.


as for your views on 4 and 6... they have everything to do with them.....as the bible is what has taught us of Sin... and HOW we sin... not much in the "why we sin" domain.... oh other than Satan makes us do it.

as for 6, again it is relevant because many sections of the bible very much teach people to look for God outside of them selves and to trust in a man called Jesus Christ and that through him we can get to heaven and if we leave him we wont.... when many feel that god is in all of us and we do not need a leader or a person to take us there... we get there our selves and we become lost by our selves... many also believe that it is become quite important that people start to understand this.

Based on 7 you seem to think the only reason somebody would read aforementioned books is to find enlightenment. Can't one read them just out of curiosity?

fair point... although I got the impression he was targeting the message to people who do look to the bible for spiritual knowledge and understanding of "god".

[saaduh64]

1) They do not always tell the truth!
2) They are not inspired of God more than what I write on this page
3) They were written and are used for mind control and blind faith but I ask that we use reason rather than blind faith.
4) It’s not in our true nature to sin against good people or (the real) God.
5) God is not a man in the sky as such (this mostly applies to Judaism and Christianity)
6) God is in everything and in every cell of our body
7) Therefore we shouldn’t need to look outside ourselves for enlightenment although because humanity has been so brainwashed through religion, sometimes we do need to look in order to see where we have been deceived.

1 to 3 is not really true except for the fact that it has been made true by the vatican, history clearly suggests the presence of a bible that came from God unto Jesus, but not this bible, for this aint the bible of Jesus, rather, bible of paul or some such. quran on the other hand has survived and has not been changed due to the sole reason that its not only written, but its also remembered by many, so any mistake or change can be rectified.
and hello! quran is not used for mind control, it doesnt say that the pope is the most pious man upon earth or some such, it is there for you all to study and try to understand, it invites rational dialogue and is in no way suggesting mind control.
the last three points themself grant foundation to the basic concept of islam, i would recommend you study islam yourself before criticising it rather than taking someones word for it.

[haukipesukone]

they are not used for mind control allthough you have a right to see them as that allthough I would love to hear what effect these stories have had on peoples minds??

IMO Its crazy that you would use 2 fantasy books in order to defend the fact that the bible does not speak truth.... the bible does not claim to be a fantasy book like the others you have listed.... and it certainly is not treated as a fantasy book ....*scratching head*

the one thing you have made clear is that the bible's story's are in fact no more real than the lord of the rings or Alice in wonderland.


I'm using the term mind control quite loosely there, but the books can be used as escapism from "reality" which is a sort of mind control. One could argue all art/entertainment is mind control. And no, I'm not arguing it is, but just pointing out one could argue that way. And I'm not in the mood to elaborate on the point in case someone does not understand what I mean.

But you caught my point perfectly. The Bible is a fantasy book that is based on reality, just as LOTR and Alice in Wonderland. Not much difference, at least on the surface (referring to Bible code and all that hidden stuff that may or may not exist. But it may or may not exist in the other books as well).

Does the Bible claim to be anything? Or is it just people who believe in the Bible who claim it is holy or whatever? Does it say in the Bible "This is holy stuff, you must believe this!"?


as for your views on 4 and 6... they have everything to do with them.....as the bible is what has taught us of Sin... and HOW we sin... not much in the "why we sin" domain.... oh other than Satan makes us do it.

as for 6, again it is relevant because many sections of the bible very much teach people to look for God outside of them selves and to trust in a man called Jesus Christ and that through him we can get to heaven and if we leave him we wont.... when many feel that god is in all of us and we do not need a leader or a person to take us there... we get there our selves and we become lost by our selves... many also believe that it is become quite important that people start to understand this.


I think 4-6 refer more to Christianity, not the Bible. And the point of this thread was to give reasons not to read the Bible. It's like if I said "Don't read the Bible, because pikachu is blue."


fair point... although I got the impression he was targeting the message to people who do look to the bible for spiritual knowledge and understanding of "god".

That's the impression I got too, but since s/he didn't elaborate I took his words literally.

[thirdwave]

I'm using the term mind control quite loosely there, but the books can be used as escapism from "reality" which is a sort of mind control. One could argue all art/entertainment is mind control. Well I guess, but then you could say anything that effects the mind is mind control.... what I take as mind control is when the mind is being effected either against the will of the person or without them knowing..

And no, I'm not arguing it is, but just pointing out one could argue that way. And I'm not in the mood to elaborate on the point in case someone does not understand what I mean.

fair enough.

But you caught my point perfectly. The Bible is a fantasy book that is based on reality, just as LOTR and Alice in Wonderland. Not much difference, at least on the surface (referring to Bible code and all that hidden stuff that may or may not exist. But it may or may not exist in the other books as well).
I dont know what reality it is based on.... there are a few segments of words that sound like they have come from the mouth of a wise shaman talking about universal energy and meditation.... and that's pretty much it... the rest is loose and vague stories and apparent views from God on Humanity.. that are very much unproven and in most cases illogical and even negative.


Does the Bible claim to be anything? Or is it just people who believe in the Bible who claim it is holy or whatever? Does it say in the Bible "This is holy stuff, you must believe this!"?
VERY much so... it tells us that those who don't believe in the god it is projecting, will be dammed.... and it also tells us the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ and to be wary of other preachers (wolves in sheep's clothing) ..in a very vague manner.


I think 4-6 refer more to Christianity, not the Bible.
... and what is the bible?

And the point of this thread was to give reasons not to read the Bible. It's like if I said "Don't read the Bible, because pikachu is blue."
Well like I say I don't think the aim was to stop people from researching it... but more to stop looking at it for guidance, going by the first post.... that's how I took it anyway, maybe I am wrong.

That's the impression I got too, but since s/he didn't elaborate I took his words literally.
Well now you are sounding as contradicting as the bible does!

[bigus_dickus]

1) They do not always tell the truth!

about what?

2) They are not inspired of God more than what I write on this page

they don't claim to be more inspired by God than what you write on this page

3) They were written and are used for mind control and blind faith but I ask that we use reason rather than blind faith.

the word Logos in the bible, means reason and logic is derived from it. did you know that?

4) It’s not in our true nature to sin against good people or (the real) God.

the word sin means mistake. it is in our true nature to make mistakes (of course), but it is not wise to want to make mistakes.

5) God is not a man in the sky as such (this mostly applies to Judaism and Christianity)

saying that God is a man in the sky, is a heresy. they have never made such claims.

6) God is in everything and in every cell of our body

where did you read that?

7) Therefore we shouldn’t need to look outside ourselves for enlightenment although because humanity has been so brainwashed through religion, sometimes we do need to look in order to see where we have been deceived.

the bible doesn't say to look outside (where?) for enlightenment. to be committed and disciplined is an inside thing alright.

Can anyone really prove the above wrong – [I]without quoting text from the Bible or the Qur'an?

anytime :)

[thirdwave]

about what?



they don't claim to be more inspired by God than what you write on this page



the word Logos in the bible, means reason and logic is derived from it. did you know that?



the word sin means mistake. it is in our true nature to make mistakes (of course), but it is not wise to want to make mistakes.



saying that God is a man in the sky, is a heresy. they have never made such claims.



where did you read that?



the bible doesn't say to look outside (where?) for enlightenment. to be committed and disciplined is an inside thing alright.



anytime :)



im not going to address all of that off the mark stuff .. i will just address the highlighted points...

First of all "sin" does not really mean mistake in the same way as the actual English word means mistake...

it means that the given targets are not met....

of course its natural for man to make mistakes....

but if you drop your cup of coffee you have not sinned have you? lol

no, you only sin if you step out of line with what that God expects of you... that's where the word came from.

It is actually a two sided argument this, as I think its perfectly natural and in peoples nature to sin.... but some sins are not really evil at all.

I dont think its natural for people to be evil, but we do have darkness within us that needs to be expressed in some way.... its failure to do so in the right way that leads to evil... and most religions offer nothing in how to deal with the dark side of our sevles other than fear it.

as for god being in the sky... its not hear say at all.... If you are to work out where Jesus Christ left us and went too is.... and where he told people heaven was... then you would be left assuming he is somewhere up their in space.

I did not recall them saying that when he ascended up into the sky he went through a black hole... or vanished... it was kind of left with the up in the sky thing.

Jesus Was an incarnation of God right? ... and he physically.. woke from the dead and ascended up into the sky right?

so tell us where god is now?

[saaduh64]

the concept of trinity in christianity is ctually a creation of romans to incorporate their religios values in christians, what really happened is that Jesus did not come back from the dead, and he is not God, jesus was a man, a mortal who preached about God, his God, everyone's God. exactly like Muhammad. and the true bible was a revelation from God sent unto mankind through Jesus. not some interpretation from any apostle, if i recall right, one such copy was recently found upon scrolls probably in egypt...

[thirdwave]

the concept of trinity in christianity is ctually a creation of romans to incorporate their religios values in christians,

well this is quiet a common thing to say, but you have only learn of this subject what the romans have permitted you to learn anyway.... so where has your knowledge come from?


what really happened is that Jesus did not come back from the dead, and he is not God, jesus was a man, a mortal who preached about God, his God, everyone's God.

but this is just it you see, now, you are right that Jesus did not come back from the dead.... and yes he (or who ever it was) was just a man and a mortal.... but why do you then go and swallow the God thing??

If you take away all the corrupt parts you have also highlighted you would not even be left with a man preaching about A god..... but infact how we are all apart of a universal mind .... and how meditaion and chaneling can help us aline with it...

a true spiritual person would not refure to the enlightenment as his father.... or our god....

because he would know that god is within him self. and it would have been this that many people probebly preached this at the time... not just a chosen one.

With all due respect, I don't understand how people agree to how the creators of the bible fucked with it, but pick and choose the part they decide to feel are real, based on nothing but the book handed to them.

[bigus_dickus]

im not going to address all of that off the mark stuff .. i will just address the highlighted points...

why? your "reasons" were off the mark as well, hence the comments.

First of all "sin" does not really mean mistake in the same way as the actual English word means mistake...

it means to willingly do something that you know that is not right. you can only sin if you know what is right and wrong and have chosen to do the right. if you don't care at all, you can't sin. a psychopath murderer is not a sinner in his own mind, because he doesn't think that he is doing something wrong. that's why he is a psychopath.

but if you drop your cup of coffee you have not sinned have you? lol

if you deliberately drop your cup of coffee on someone while knowing that you shouldn't do that, you have "sinned".

no, you only sin if you step out of line with what that God expects of you... that's where the word came from.

what God "expects" from you is not a big and difficult task to do.

It is actually a two sided argument this, as I think its perfectly natural and in peoples nature to sin.... but some sins are not really evil at all.

sin and nature don't go together. sin has to do with religion and theology. if you are religious, you are committed to love and help everyone and never hate. if you hate, you are sinning, because you are breaking this commitment you made to yourself. if you are not religious and haven't made any commitment you are not a sinner. however that doesn't mean that you won't meet with the consequences of your actions face to face.

I dont think its natural for people to be evil, but we do have darkness within us that needs to be expressed in some way.... its failure to do so in the right way that leads to evil... and most religions offer nothing in how to deal with the dark side of our sevles other than fear it.

so what is the right way to express the "internal darkness"?

as for god being in the sky... its not hear say at all.... If you are to work out where Jesus Christ left us and went too is.... and where he told people heaven was... then you would be left assuming he is somewhere up their in space.

I did not recall them saying that when he ascended up into the sky he went through a black hole... or vanished... it was kind of left with the up in the sky thing.

when we say "heavens", we don't mean the sky, the earth's atmosphere. what is the sky anyway? and where is the sky, can you point it to me and say "that" is the sky?

Jesus Was an incarnation of God right? ... and he physically.. woke from the dead and ascended up into the sky right?

so tell us where god is now?

the bible doesn't say that Jesus was an "incarnation of God".

God is not anywhere. you can't travel somewhere and meet God. you can imagine that if you are someone looking at the world from inside out, God is the same one looking from outside in.

[thirdwave]

why? your "reasons" were off the mark as well, hence the comments.

well you did not quote my message, you quoted tjohn's :)



it means to willingly do something that you know that is not right.
not really, that is what deceitful is.

Sin is mainly used (certainly in contect of this thread) as a word describing when a set of rules upholding a moral code is broken.... it is based on those rules... hence if a gay person has sex with another gay person, many christians see that as Sin. But in general having gay sex is not deceitful.

likewise I could say that Jesus is a big fat pile of shit and I know more than he does, that would be a sin, but it would not be deceitful.


you can only sin if you know what is right and wrong and have chosen to do the right. if you don't care at all, you can't sin. a psychopath murderer is not a sinner in his own mind, because he doesn't think that he is doing something wrong. that's why he is a psychopath.

he would know he is sinning, but he would not agree that sinning is bad..... he would not feel he is doing wrong... even though understand that what he done is known to be a sin according to the christian religion... which is what this thread is based on.


if you deliberately drop your cup of coffee on someone while knowing that you shouldn't do that, you have "sinned".
Yes, because you would have tried to hurt somone.... this is one of the sins I would agree with.... but if I made the "mistake" of dropping my coffee on my own lap... i would not have sinned, which rules out your original translation on what a sin is.

what God "expects" from you is not a big and difficult task to do.
it depends what god you are talking about and what parts of his words you decide to leave out and ignore or take in...

for example I would not expect my wife to live like a hermit and expect all her knowledge from me....

and I would also not expect a gay person to live in oppression ...

I would also like to keep my mind open to other ideas of god and spirituality rather than chain it down to one god ..... again something he asks for.

so on..


sin and nature don't go together. sin has to do with religion and theology.

exactly and that was the original point made by tjohn...


if you are religious, you are committed to love and help everyone and never hate.

errr well that's the idea yeah but in case you have not notice it has not always panned out that way.

also just because a target of being good to people and to love has been set, it does not mean that the practices set out are effective, ignorance is never a good platform to build anything on.... and oppression will never be a good garden for love...


if you hate, you are sinning, because you are breaking this commitment you made to yourself.

exactly one of the stupid sins..... you hate things because you do not resonate with them and this feeling must be recognised by all healthy human beings.... its how they DEAL with the hate that effects them... taking hate from people is means you would take away the same thing that makes them love.


if you are not religious and haven't made any commitment you are not a sinner.

go read the bible again.... yes you are, if you do not follow the light of Jesus Christ you walk the path of Satan..... the only way to heaven is through Jesus.... if you sin you sin, regardless of if you believe in it or not...

did you not read the story about Jesus "Dyeing for our sins" how many of those people believed in Jesus? .... how many of the Romans believed in him while nailing him to the cross as he was supposed to have prayed for their sins??

however that doesn't mean that you won't meet with the consequences of your actions face to face.
dos that not mean that you do sin then?, and its our sins that bring us further from god supposedly.


so what is the right way to express the "internal darkness"?

Well this is quite a big question .... I would say to sum it up nice and quick...
freedom is a huge part, freedom of who you are not what you have been made to be.... and most importantly to not fear the dark side.....

but everyone is different and has there own script.

What I do know is religions only set out to mask our problems and to make people feel inferior and slave like ..... with most people the very nature or prayer is to plead with a god... just the way the elite want them while they put their feet up.

and i know there are a few Jedi's here that up hold "true Christianity" but they are just the same only aware of the rest of the bullshit but not aware enough to just let it go and be their own Jesus and put that out... this is what the world needs and its what is going to happen because people are being forced to wake up... and its messy because the beech ball has been held under the water rather than aloud to move up.... so it will come up with a big splash..



when we say "heavens", we don't mean the sky, the earth's atmosphere. what is the sky anyway? and where is the sky, can you point it to me and say "that" is the sky?

yes but the sky is the earth's atmosphere... i will point up, where Jesus Christ was meant to have gone up to.... you can change sky to atmosphere if you prefer that I guess....

if you ask people where the stars are or the moon they tend to say up hi in the sky.


the bible doesn't say that Jesus was an "incarnation of God".

Yes it does, maybe not in those words.... but most christians will tell you that Jesus Christ was god.

God is not anywhere. you can't travel somewhere and meet God. no shit ... thats my point... not the bibles though.

you can imagine that if you are someone looking at the world from inside out, God is the same one looking from outside in.

well i find it funny when people tell me who and what god is :)

My own view of god is that it is everywhere in all of us and in every living atom in the universe... and through our conciousness we can be apart of Gods creation... and create... and what we create, we expirience... what we put out we get back in the long run.

WE are responsible not Jesus.

[saaduh64]

well this is quiet a common thing to say, but you have only learn of this subject what the romans have permitted you to learn anyway.... so where has your knowledge come from?
actually this information comes through another divine intervention, quran, according to which jesus was a prophet of god previous to muhammad and that the moment he was about to be put on the cross, god took him up, but according to a prophesy he will be sent to the world at a later time, as an ummati of muhammad, meaning not as a prophet but as a leader and lead muslims from their dark times.
by God being everywhere means that he has created everything so profoundly that he loves us damn much unimaginably, and that he feels our sorrow or happiness so vey much thus he is within us but that doesnt mean that he aint there....

[bigus_dickus]

well you did not quote my message, you quoted tjohn's :)

oh, right i didn't notice, sorry.

Sin is mainly used (certainly in contect of this thread) as a word describing when a set of rules upholding a moral code is broken.... it is based on those rules... hence if a gay person has sex with another gay person, many christians see that as Sin. But in general having gay sex is not deceitful.

i'm not talking about how it is mainly used, i am saying what it really means.

yes, if you are not religious, you don't know and you are not supposed to know what sin is. that's why i am saying that sin is breaking that religious moral code. the gay person is not a sinner if he has no concept of sin or if he believes that what he does is not sinful, according to his belief of what sinful can be.

likewise I could say that Jesus is a big fat pile of shit and I know more than he does, that would be a sin, but it would not be deceitful.

you can say and do whatever you want, you have free will to do so.

he would know he is sinning, but he would not agree that sinning is bad..... he would not feel he is doing wrong... even though understand that what he done is known to be a sin according to the christian religion... which is what this thread is based on.

he would know that he is sinning if he has a religious background that has taught him what sinning is and what is considered wrong or sin. if he believes that what he is doing is not wrong, he can't believe that he is sinning at the same time, because it's the definition of sinning to do something wrong according to his belief on what wrong is.

Yes, because you would have tried to hurt somone.... this is one of the sins I would agree with.... but if I made the "mistake" of dropping my coffee on my own lap... i would not have sinned, which rules out your original translation on what a sin is.

of course i am not talking about random mistakes, i am talking about "missing the mark", which is what the word sin means. missing the mark, is first having a goal and then take actions that drive you away from that goal. if you don't have a goal, there's no point in missing any mark.

it depends what god you are talking about and what parts of his words you decide to leave out and ignore or take in...

for example I would not expect my wife to live like a hermit and expect all her knowledge from me....

and I would also not expect a gay person to live in oppression ...

I would also like to keep my mind open to other ideas of god and spirituality rather than chain it down to one god ..... again something he asks for.

so on..

it depends on what you choose to do. nobody forces you to do anything, you can choose to be a christian, a muslim, a buddhist, an atheist, a thirdwave. the sinning is supposed to be taken into account in the final judgment, when your life is over.

exactly and that was the original point made by tjohn...

well, we can't call animals "sinners" can we? only humans can be sinners according to what we said above.

errr well that's the idea yeah but in case you have not notice it has not always panned out that way.

of course, that's why in Christianity they have confession. you just change your mind and make a promise not to do it again and that it is forgiven. you actually forgive yourself and move on.

exactly one of the stupid sins..... you hate things because you do not resonate with them and this feeling must be recognised by all healthy human beings.... its how they DEAL with the hate that effects them... taking hate from people is means you would take away the same thing that makes them love.

you can't take hate off people and you can't make people love each other. for the same reason that you can't buy and sell love, just a caricature of it that is not real. you also can't make people do what you prefer them to do. religions provide a teaching and people join them to get this teaching and benefit from it, they are not forced violently to do so.

go read the bible again.... yes you are, if you do not follow the light of Jesus Christ you walk the path of Satan..... the only way to heaven is through Jesus.... if you sin you sin, regardless of if you believe in it or not...

did you not read the story about Jesus "Dyeing for our sins" how many of those people believed in Jesus? .... how many of the Romans believed in him while nailing him to the cross as he was supposed to have prayed for their sins??

that's not what the bible says. btw, the bible is a collection of books written by different authors and each might have his own opinions. Jesus has never said anything like the above.

dos that not mean that you do sin then?, and its our sins that bring us further from god supposedly.

what you do brings you the results from your actions. i am not saying that you should be closer to God if you don't want to. go away from him as much as you can if you want, you have the right to do so. you have the right to negate everything that has to do with sinning, with good and evil. you can even go on a rampage and kill everyone you see for fun. does that mean that you are going to be "burning in hell"? i don't know, but if you ever find out come back and tell me.

Well this is quite a big question .... I would say to sum it up nice and quick...
freedom is a huge part, freedom of who you are not what you have been made to be.... and most importantly to not fear the dark side.....

what is the dark side that i am supposed to avoid fearing?

but everyone is different and has there own script.

What I do know is religions only set out to mask our problems and to make people feel inferior and slave like ..... with most people the very nature or prayer is to plead with a god... just the way the elite want them while they put their feet up.

when you say to make people feel inferior, inferior with respect to who?

and i know there are a few Jedi's here that up hold "true Christianity" but they are just the same only aware of the rest of the bullshit but not aware enough to just let it go and be their own Jesus and put that out... this is what the world needs and its what is going to happen because people are being forced to wake up... and its messy because the beech ball has been held under the water rather than aloud to move up.... so it will come up with a big splash..

alright, but i don't see how the above can be reasons not to study the bible, as our topic reads. you are talking about the misinterpretation and mishandling of the bible as i have been pointing out as well.

yes but the sky is the earth's atmosphere... i will point up, where Jesus Christ was meant to have gone up to.... you can change sky to atmosphere if you prefer that I guess....

if you ask people where the stars are or the moon they tend to say up hi in the sky.

when i point up, i point to a certain direction. but that's not where the sky is. the sky is also at the side and down which is up on the other side of the earth. so it's all around. thus the sky, or "the heavens" refers to the whole rest of the universe and most importantly its biggest part that we can't see and call "dark matter". these people knew about this or suspected it before we found and proved it scientifically.

Yes it does, maybe not in those words.... but most christians will tell you that Jesus Christ was god.

they will tell you "son of God", not God.

well i find it funny when people tell me who and what god is :)

My own view of god is that it is everywhere in all of us and in every living atom in the universe... and through our conciousness we can be apart of Gods creation... and create... and what we create, we expirience... what we put out we get back in the long run.

WE are responsible not Jesus.

the Christian religion says the same thing: God cannot be defined or conceptualized. God is "everywhere present and fillest all things", they say.

[thirdwave]

oh, right i didn't notice, sorry.



[QUOTE]i'm not talking about how it is mainly used, i am saying what it really means.

I'm talking about both... and you should be talking about how it is mainly used as the thread is about the bible ;)

yes, if you are not religious, you don't know and you are not supposed to know what sin is. that's why i am saying that sin is breaking that religious moral code. the gay person is not a sinner if he has no concept of sin or if he believes that what he does is not sinful according to his beliefs.



you can say and do whatever you want, you have free will to do so.
your damn right.


he would know that he is sinning if he has a religious background that has taught him what sinning is and what is considered wrong or sin. if he believes that what he is doing is not wrong, he can't believe that he is sinning at the same time, because it's the definition of sinning to do something wrong according to his belief on what is wrong.


well yes.... but from the christian perspective he would still be sinning and that is what's relevant here.


of course i am not talking about random mistakes, i am talking about "missing the mark", which is what the word sin means. missing the mark, is first having a goal and then take actions that drive you away from that goal. if you don't have a goal, there's no point in missing any mark.

that's right, but you are talking about random mistakes as your original quote (and one i disagreed with) implied that sin is natural because it simply means "mistake" .... and humans naturally make mistakes... my point is that yes we naturally make mistakes and that was not what was being pointed out... but Sin is not about nature, it is about one Gods set of rules being broken, unless you go way back before the bible was even created in ancient Greek where the word meant to fall short of a target... which has no meaning in the context of this thread... because today the word Sin is mainly used in a christian context, and what was clearly being used in the first post...


it depends on what you choose to do. nobody forces you to do anything. you can choose to be a christian, a muslim, a buddhist, an atheist, a thirdwave. the sinning is supposed to be taken into account in the final judgment, when your life is over.


Well the bible has been forced on people through the years and today is still pushed into people.... no i am not being forced to do it... and we all have a choice as you say. But we also have a choice to project truth out to people.... if somone sold somone a car that was going to pack in, in a few months time but the person was not told this... I don't have to tell the person no, but It would be my choice to let them know they are not getting the car they think they are...

I guess people who agree with this thread are just happy to point out the faults so people are aware of the bigger picture and can there for have better incite thay can build there views on....

because in the past it has not always been that way.

no one is being "forced" to not read the bible, nor to turn away from their religion.... they choose to come here and descuss it with people they know dont share the same faith...

Truth is never un healthy.. and it will always shine through in the end.



well, we can't call animals "sinners" can we? only humans can be sinners according to what we said above.

is that made clear in the bible? .. I don't know... they are gods creatures too apparently.


of course, that's why in Christianity they have confession. you just change your mind and make a promise not to do it again and that it is forgiven. you actually forgive yourself and move on.

this can alo be seen as a way of saying you must conform of you will suffer.... and its never to late to submit.

that being said there does appear to be a line to cross as if you cut off from god, you also risk being dammed to hell for eternity ...joining Satan.... so the heat is on!


you can't take hate off people and you can't make people love each other. for the same reason that you can't buy love, just a caricature of it that is not real. you also can't make people do what you prefer. religions provide a teaching and people join them to get this teaching and benefit from it. they are not forced violently to do so.

true, although you can try and make people see things be providing it for them to see... where most people are seeing today....

and no one is saying that religion should be banned as you would think so reading your post.... it is not a case of that, it is a case of education people thoroughly.... before they build their life values and faith around somthing.

everyone has the will to do as they like... if somone wants to build there life on Jesus Christ... Im not saying they should not be free to do so... Im saying a society should not be built on that for everyone else to conform too, which has happened throughout history... and i dont think people should be come down on for putting out alternative views and info on the religions... where they are constantly.

it makes me laugh how people can twist it as if people are trying to ban religion or something.... No, its about freedom and truth.... believing in a religion because you want to... not because you have been tricked to.... if people want there religion then FINE... have it... but why come to a David Icke forum to reassure them selves?

what?, are we all meant to have a system in place where we have to all pretend that the bible is the truth out of courtesy?


that's not what the bible says. btw, the bible is a collection of books written by different authors and each might have his own opinions. Jesus has never said anything like the above.

again not true, and you highlight how the bible is not from texts that are about Jusus Christ, that has just been mixed and matched.... the texts on Jesus have only been written by the so called Apostilles.... where Jesus is very clearly presented as being mankinds only way to heaven, go read it... you don't have to believe it, but don't tell me that's not what it says... and implyes all the way through the books..


what is the dark side that i am supposed to avoid fearing?


You tell me, I don't know you. you ever have dark thoughts?... you have been an arse hole?


when you say to make people feel inferior, inferior with the respect to who?
your kidding right?

inferior to the God that it holds above you... and the obsticals that god has placed before you.


alright, but i don't see how the above can be reasons not to study the bible, as our topic reads. you are talking about the misinterpretation and mishandling of the bible as i have been pointing out as well.

as I have pointed out, I don think people should not study it, I am saying IMO I would not advice it as a good of truth and spiritual enlightenment....



when i point up, i point to a certain direction. but that's not where the sky is. the sky is also at the side and down which is up on the other side of the earth. so it's all around. thus the sky, or "the heavens" refers to the whole rest of the universe and most importantly its biggest part that we can't see and call "dark matter". these people knew about this or suspected it before we found and proved it scientifically.

You need to look up sky in the dictionary.... the sky is the atmosphere and beyond that is visible to us.... that is the sky .. FACT.

and it is where the bible claims Jesus ascended off to...

there for a God somewhere in the sky is very much on target.


they will tell you "son of God", not God.
I dont think you have read it, and have obviously not spoken to many christians on this forum....

I would agree he would have been more a son of God ...as we all are.... but as usual it also depicts HIM as god.... hence his name "Jesus Christ"


the Christian religion says the same thing: God cannot be defined or conceptualized. God is "everywhere present and fillest all things", they say.

But only through faith in Christ and it also tells how how to go through christ...... there is a difference.

[major seven]

the concept of trinity in christianity is ctually a creation of romans to incorporate their religios values in christians, what really happened is that Jesus did not come back from the dead, and he is not God, jesus was a man, a mortal who preached about God, his God, everyone's God. exactly like Muhammad. and the true bible was a revelation from God sent unto mankind through Jesus. not some interpretation from any apostle, if i recall right, one such copy was recently found upon scrolls probably in egypt...


Hey Saad Man
The Trinity is the easiest theology to bash. What you just quoted is the typical garbage your imams are trained to shove into your brain cells.
To get close to the concept of the Trinity you have to have supporting texts and then it still ain't easy. It will be doubly hard for you since Allah isn't called "Father" nor is there a "Son of the Father" in Islam.
Anyway, for a start, take a read through this site just for fun.

www.geocities.com/stat23mj/cultsreligions/islam01.html

Remember, there are Christian outfits that don't believe in the Trinty either, such as the Oneness Pentecostals, and the Jehova Witnesses. They have their own versions of where the Trinity came from also.
But if you study that chart in that site and look up the verses and see how the Son and the Holy Spirit have the SAME ATTRIBUTES as the Father yet keeping in mind there can still only be ONE GOD, the Trinity might start to make sense, or yet NOT. Kinda depends on how your brain is wired.
The Anti-trinity guys are real big on getting the Son and Holy Spirit to come out like minor "gods" thus having multiple gods thus negating the whole deal to paganism.
Most people don't bother to think about it and just trust that the college boys giving the sermons know what the hell they are talking about.

Frank

[eternal_spirit]

That's interesting Frank - Have to say a common misconception that Jehovahs witness are Christian (something I'd always thought until last week :D)

Jehovah is actually Yahweh a God of Judaism. Although the witness's guess could be conisdered Judaic/Christianity, if that's the word.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=596948&postcount=26 Sprigmeier and Manly P hall make a few comments about them

[major seven]

That's interesting Frank - Have to say a common misconception that Jehovahs witness are Christian (something I'd always thought until last week :D)

Jehovah is actually Yahweh a God of Judaism. Although the witness's guess could be conisdered Judaic/Christianity, if that's the word.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=596948&postcount=26 Sprigmeier and Manly P hall make a few comments about them


Hey ES
Yeah! The Witnesses are a trip.
Some years ago my wife and I had the dubious pleasure of doing a bible study with them. Hey! It was free and they come to your house.
Doesn't take too long to figure out that it actually is a Watchtower study, plus they bring their own version of the bible along with them too called The New World Translation.
From the get go they say they are like the original 1st Century Christians. LOL!
Fortunately, even though the internet was pretty young at that time we managed to come up with a ton of stuff that got to be fun to bring up during the "study".
The New World Translation is interesting. Kind of like the HOY guys, they started inserting Jehova everywhere they could. They also took out the word "grace" altogether and replaced it with a phrase "Undeserved kindness".
They also changed the wording of John 1;1 to read "And the word was a god" which of course negated the Trinity concept in one fell swoop.
Their translation came from a theoretical committee of 5 men, but only Fred Franz the Pres for life had only a minimal background in Biblical Greek which he also took around the same time with Hebrew for maybe two years "and got passing grades". LOL!
Anyway, classic cult Crap.
Then of course, just to be different, they added the whole deal with blood transfusions, no celebrating of birthdays, Christmas, Easter, etc. going door to door with their Brooklyn handouts
Most of their garbage came by way of their false prophet and pres for life and shady lawyer Joe Rutherford who also coined the term "Jehova Witness".
Before that they were just "Bible Students" started up by another failed prohet Charles Russell. Rutherford was such a Moron, most of the Bible Students left.
Anyway, the rest is history as they say.
They sure get pissy too when they finally realize you ain't signing up. Called us Trinitarians and spiritually sent us to Hell. LOL!
If you were to ask, they will flat out tell you that they are the ONLY TRUE Christians on the planet and the ONLY ones saved after Armegedon to inherit and repopulate planet earth.
They totally depise Mormons, Catholics, Protestants and Muslims.
Just another fun religious group.

Frank

[mephibosheth]

Here are some good reasons FOR reading the Bible or Qur'an:

(1) Know your enemey
(2) Refresh your spirit
(3) Study what various ancient cultures have said about their history and world history
(4) Study how various cultures have conceived of God or gods and how they practiced their faiths and/or rituals

Inspiration comes in many forms, and is peculiar to each individual. Some people will read the Qur'an and be refreshed by it, others will read it and be repulsed. Some will read Plato and be invigorated, others will read him and be incredulous. If I want to get an intellectual workout, I'll ponder the ancient Greeks a while, because in their pondering they are confronting reality as it appears and trying to understand it through the force of reason. If I want a jolly good yarn I'll look into the Bible or Qur'an, which usually only relay a story to me, rather than present a rational basis for confronting reality. Now, since these are large, complex books, I'm sure we can find instances of all kinds in them--from mere narrative, to record keeping, to poetry, to myth.

The best reason to read them or any other religious work is if you feel you need to. In taoism there is a belief that the teacher appears when the student is ready. Hence, if you feel drawn to a work at a particular place and time, go for it. It may be a window for your soul to open up in some way.



Some further comments...


...as for 6, again it is relevant because many sections of the bible very much teach people to look for God outside of them selves and to trust in a man called Jesus Christ and that through him we can get to heaven and if we leave him we wont....


Although, interestingly, Jesus doesn't really teach this. The gospels seem to tell a story of Jesus struggling to teach his apostles the subtle and esoteric meanings behind his words, to get them individually to open their minds and hearts, to stop looking 'outward' and realize that the kingdom of God was within each of them.

John 14:6 is much abused, and the whole structure of Christian heresy seems to hang upon it.



...when many feel that god is in all of us and we do not need a leader or a person to take us there... we get there our selves and we become lost by our selves... many also believe that it is become quite important that people start to understand this.

Yes, and I think that even the authorized gospels can help us in that regard!



Yes it does, maybe not in those words.... but most christians will tell you that Jesus Christ was god.


And they'd be wrong, blasphemers!!

I think that this is one thing Islam has over Christianity, and it's no small matter. Doesn't mean Islam is correct, just that it incorporates another facet of truth.




My own view of god is that it is everywhere in all of us and in every living atom in the universe... and through our conciousness we can be apart of Gods creation... and create... and what we create, we expirience... what we put out we get back in the long run.

WE are responsible not Jesus.


Excellent, but also very pantheist.

8)

[mephibosheth]

When I first started reading the Qur'an I was refreshed because of it's focus on the concept of the One true God. Christianity lost all of it's appeal for me once I realized that the concept of the trinity was false and irrational, and that Jesus-whoreship basically amounted to a kind of idolatry, viz. Catholicism. The Most High God must be beyond limitations in any form. It is certainly beyond the finite form of a human being. Even though I accept the idea that a human consciousness can become one with the divine stream, that is, enter into a direct relationship with the Source of all Being. But then we only become divinely enlightened--gods, maybe, but never 'God'.

So Islam's initial concept of submission to the One True God seemed like a great spiritual focus. But then I found out that the whole thing is just another bit of ridiculousness. In Islam I think it's important to realize that God never speaks to Mohammed. Like John Smith who came long after him, Mohammed is 'given' his 'testimony' by 'an angel'...but interestingly enough, this bit of the narrative is left out of the Qur'an itself. So what we have is a text distributed by a human provided by a being OTHER than God. At least God the father makes an appearance in the gospels of Jesus, and Jesus speaks directly from his intimate understanding/unity with the 'father'. At least God spoke directly to Moses and Abraham et al. Poor old Mohammed wasn't even like the prophets he is supposed to follow in line with. Probably because God doesn't speak arabic, lol, and Gabriel had to make a special translation of the 'true history of the earth'.

Right.

Well, its little tidbits like that that make me say 'take it with a grain of salt.'

I don't think it's reasonable to put our faith in ancient texts when it comes to communing with the divine. How can we trust them, really? It's too much for the rational mind to overcome, imo. Best to look in there and find some nuggets that resonate with you personally, then if you can, test them in your life to see if they hold true. I couldn't be a 'Christian' because I won't worship Jesus as God; I wouldn't be a Muslim because I'm not going to put faith in a fictional angel nor am I going to give a human being aka 'prophet' any special status. But I can fully appreciate the message of Grace and dig the idea of spiritual submission to One Most High.

8)

[mephibosheth]

Hey ES
Yeah! The Witnesses are a trip.


Indeed. It was their doctrine that first got me on to the idea of anti-trinitarianism, so-called. Even if they're way off on other things, doesn't mean they're wrong on this (as there are and have been many others that denied this pagan-cum-Catholic concept). Its amusing that almost all the 'evidence' for the 'trinity'--which is never actually taught in the OT or NT--is based on interpretations made by Christians of various scriptures. I always think of a Christian trippin' as they read through the Bible--'oh man, yeah! this TOTALLY is about Jesus!!' Well, we can find just about anything in anything if we look hard enough, lol.

8)

[major seven]

Indeed. It was their doctrine that first got me on to the idea of anti-trinitarianism, so-called. Even if they're way off on other things, doesn't mean they're wrong on this (as there are and have been many others that denied this pagan-cum-Catholic concept). Its amusing that almost all the 'evidence' for the 'trinity'--which is never actually taught in the OT or NT--is based on interpretations made by Christians of various scriptures. I always think of a Christian trippin' as they read through the Bible--'oh man, yeah! this TOTALLY is about Jesus!!' Well, we can find just about anything in anything if we look hard enough, lol.

8)

Hey Meph
Could be EVERYBODY is wrong.
I suspect the Crop Circle People could fill in some interesting blanks and start up a whole different way of thinking. Eh What?
And how come England gets most all of the cool Crop Circles anyway.
Maybe they think they won't get as blown up by the English when they do finally put in an actual appearance as opposed to the USGov./CIA/FBI guys who generally prefer to blow up everything first and ask questions later.

Frank

[thirdwave]

Here are some good reasons FOR reading the Bible or Qur'an:

(1) Know your enemey

what you mean is know the enemy the bible likes to project.... and I would agree if you would like to know the mind set of those in that religion then read the book... if the bible really told us about our enemy, then it would come out with its hands up.

(2) Refresh your spirit

LOL, yeah right, as refreshing as a pint of horse spunk... i would take a david icke book over the bible any day of my life.


(3) Study what various ancient cultures have said about their history and world history

yeah because the bible lets us know all about the Mayans...Egyptians... Sumerians... hoppi indians.... and so forth.... and it tells us of the beliefs of these cultures... sure... its rammed packed...... Not.


(4) Study how various cultures have conceived of God or gods and how they practiced their faiths and/or rituals lol, your kidding me right... do you not think there are more advanced books in that field? lol



Inspiration comes in many forms, and is peculiar to each individual.
very true

Some people will read the Qur'an and be refreshed by it, others will read it and be repulsed. Some will read Plato and be invigorated, others will read him and be incredulous. If I want to get an intellectual workout, I'll ponder the ancient Greeks a while, because in their pondering they are confronting reality as it appears and trying to understand it through the force of reason. If I want a jolly good yarn I'll look into the Bible or Qur'an, which usually only relay a story to me, rather than present a rational basis for confronting reality. Now, since these are large, complex books, I'm sure we can find instances of all kinds in them--from mere narrative, to record keeping, to poetry, to myth.

well yeah all well and good... but are the books not created to represent the wishes and stories of god....

of course any book should be read in order to gain incite from it... this is obvious.... the question is then asked what value the book has with regards its target.

I could tell you that a cake tastes of shit ... but you will only really know if you take a bite out of it, and in fact if you never eat a bad tasting cake you would not know what one tasted like ...



The best reason to read them or any other religious work is if you feel you need to. In taoism there is a belief that the teacher appears when the student is ready. Hence, if you feel drawn to a work at a particular place and time, go for it. It may be a window for your soul to open up in some way.
with regards to my comments on this thread you are speaking to the wong man... I have clearly stated that people should be free to read and research all info.... hence why i feel the shite in the bible should also be highlighted for people to read.

again its shocking how you can deliver alternative conflicting opinions on a a book like the bible that has been opinionated and forced on the western world over many years... yes be talked to as if you are being oppressive for hitting back which has only really happened within the last 40 years or so..... shocking.... its a shame more people did not come out with comments like yours sooner before religion education was compulsory and we did not have the internet to really expose how full of shit it is.

in order for religion to work, you need ignorance... im not talking about religious people being evil... im talking about a tool that as is used to the max over man kind and need not be there.... like rubber arm bands slowing a swimmer down.

[mephibosheth]

what you mean is know the enemy the bible likes to project.... and I would agree if you would like to know the mind set of those in that religion then read the book... if the bible really told us about our enemy, then it would come out with its hands up.


Right, which is what I was talking about. If you are against the teaching of the Bible or Qur'an, it's not a bad idea to familiarize yourself with it, so at least you know what you're railing against.



LOL, yeah right, as refreshing as a pint of horse spunk... i would take a david icke book over the bible any day of my life.


I'm sure a desirous mare would be very refreshed by a pint of horse spunk. Either way, there's no doubt that many people have read these texts and been uplifted in spirit by them, just as people have read Buddhist sutras to the same effect, or the works of philosophers.



yeah because the bible lets us know all about the Mayans...Egyptians... Sumerians... hoppi indians.... and so forth.... and it tells us of the beliefs of these cultures... sure... its rammed packed...... Not.


Heh, I didn't suggest that it did. But it does tell a story about cultures and history as seen through the lens of a certain group of people. The hebrews didn't live in the Americas, so why should their story involve those people...?



lol, your kidding me right... do you not think there are more advanced books in that field? lol


Ok, name some.

8)

[thirdwave]

Right, which is what I was talking about. If you are against the teaching of the Bible or Qur'an, it's not a bad idea to familiarize yourself with it, so at least you know what you're railing against.

ok... but do you think the thread was referring to people researching what the bible says?... or talking about them about reasons not to look to it for guidance??

should be quite an easy answer.

I'm sure a desirous mare would be very refreshed by a pint of horse spunk.

Maybe so, but it would not read the bible either lol


Either way, there's no doubt that many people have read these texts and been uplifted in spirit by them, just as people have read Buddhist sutras to the same effect, or the works of philosophers.


does not matter... Everyone is different and has a different road to walk, despite what the bible bullshits, ones man's road is not always the same as another's.... and being uplifted can come in many guises.. many people take crack or heroin and become up lifted.... many people feel uplifted when smoking a cigarette .... in fact some people feel up lighted by having anal sex but the bible would not advise it....

and like I have pointed out, no one is saying that these people should be stopped from getting their hit, but why is it so relevant to everyone else who does not give a shit?

why does a DVD like Zeuitgust come as such a threat to christans like Christ White from NWTR?

is it effecting his faith?? .. no.... yet they twist and ignore info that is alternative to what they think.... and whatg they think is not fact it is %100 their faith.... their faith they want others to have...

and because they are being stopped from luring people in with fabrication unprovable facts and myths (and how they are so willing to ignore blatant facts) that raise many new questions about what the bible is all about.... they act like they are being attacked...

No, no one is attacking freedom... not me... not icke... not maxwell... not tsarion... not the Z movies... and no one else they attack... they are simply providing alternative info to stand up against mainstream info ..for people to look at and make their own minds up..

since people have done this they claim to be under attack...

where??.. who is attacking them??... if they believe then what is stopping them? Nothing.



Heh, I didn't suggest that it did.
ahhh ok, well sorry, would you care to elaborate more on what you meant? as i though when you said

"Study what various ancient cultures have said about their history and world history"

I thought you meant Study what various ancient cultures have said about their history and world history ....

So I pointed out how it does a lousy job at it and is not really the books ball park.

But it does tell a story about cultures and history as seen through the lens of a certain group of people. The hebrews didn't live in the Americas, so why should their story involve those people...?

It tells what it needs to tell.


Ok, name some.

Well its quite a vague question as you are talking about a brought spectrum here.... If you tell me what parts in the bible are so informative in that field.. I would bet you I can list at least 4 modern day books that can do and much more thorough job.

[tjohn]

1) They do not always tell the truth! about what? What kind of question is that? There isn’t room on here to show everywhere that religious books don’t tell the truth but it should be seen that they don’t always tell the truth, even from the few things I point out.

2) They are not inspired of God more than what I write on this page They don't claim to be more inspired by God than what you write on this page. I tend to agree with you but 2 Tim 3:16 of the bible can be interpreted as claiming otherwise.

3) They were written and are used for mind control and blind faith but I ask that we use reason rather than blind faith. the word Logos in the bible, means [that] reason and logic is derived from it. Did you know that? Yes that would be a (partial) interpretation but where does the reason and logic come from? Another interpretation would be the conclusion I came to (which was without religious bias), that the Logos means the expression of the mind.

For context see my scribbles at http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41126

4) It’s not in our true nature to sin against good people or (the real) God. the word sin means mistake, it is in our true nature to make mistakes (of course), but it is not wise to want to make mistakes. Obviously a mistake is a mistake but there can be deliberate ‘mistakes’ – such as that despite the all the evidence, people deny that there are many contradictions against the truth in religion and religious books. Sin is deliberate wrongdoing rather than mistakes but we were not born to be cruel and hateful.

5) God is not a man in the sky as such (this mostly applies to Judaism and Christianity) saying that God is a man in the sky, is a heresy. they have never made such claims.
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:heresy&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Heresy is when going against official views yet “God” was seen as someone in the sky by the Hebrews...

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=pillar+of+fire

Then Moses, we are told, met with ‘God’ up a mountain who then gave Moses the Commandments which are said to be written by the ‘finger’ of 'God'. Not forgetting the incident where ‘God’ spoke to Moses from a burning bush and other supposed appearances of ‘God’.

Then did you know that angels were referred to as ‘Lord’ or YHWH? That’s right, in the Hebrew text, the name YHWH was given to angels whom the Hebrews have taken as representing God.

So what does this all mean? It means that the bible is about ETs (or angels or demons) and Judaeo-Christian religious people have built their faith on the say-so of distorted texts that tell of experiences with ETs of one nation, the Hebrews.

That YHWH (an angel or angels) few around in a cloud and was very jealous and nationalistic and often very cruel and hateful towards people of other nations. :mad: :(

That Hebrew 'God' was a mass murderer, yet people base their (blind) faith on the stories of the Hebrews! Then look at Israel today, as they continue in dreadful self-righteous warfare, while at the same time religious Jews are bobbing heads against a wall! :rolleyes:

It would be funny if the outcome of religion wasn’t so serious.

6) God is in everything and in every cell of our body where did you read that? I didn’t have to read it!

7) Therefore we shouldn’t need to look outside ourselves for enlightenment although because humanity has been so brainwashed through religion, sometimes we do need to look in order to see where we have been deceived. the bible doesn't say to look outside (where?) for enlightenment to be committed and disciplined is an inside thing alright. Based on bible texts, religion has people looking outside of themselves for ‘God’ to come and help them.

Enlightenment is to be found inside us but religious discipline often has people going against what we are inside and if, as we have been told, God is ‘perfect’ there would be no need to discipline anyone.

However it isn’t quite that simple because whether “good” or “bad” we ourselves are playing out the mind of the God of all, otherwise God wouldn’t be God of all.

Have a think about it!

Then we have the choice to be “good” or “bad” and it is that which will determine what God is doing on our planet.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41126

[tjohn]

Within every myth is some fact.Usually that is true - along with fiction.

[bigus_dickus]

I'm talking about both... and you should be talking about how it is mainly used as the thread is about the bible ;)

i only mentioned that the word sin means mistake, because this word, which in Greek is "amartia" (αμαρτία) was not coined in the bible, but used in the bible.

if you want further analysis of the word, here it is:

amartia = a + eimartai

a is for non

eimartai is from "meiromai" = take the place where i belong (as in fate)

consequently amartia means to be somewhere where i don't belong. to do something different or opposite from your "logos" that determines where you belong. your "logos" is your word, your intentions, your self and your reasons.

well yes.... but from the christian perspective he would still be sinning and that is what's relevant here.

yes and that's only because the christian perspective suggests that all men are brothers and children of one father and that they should at least respect and love each other as brothers. that would be the place that all people belong. hate is not where a human belongs, hate can only last for a small amount of time because it is self destructive.

that's right, but you are talking about random mistakes as your original quote (and one i disagreed with) implied that sin is natural because it simply means "mistake" .... and humans naturally make mistakes... my point is that yes we naturally make mistakes and that was not what was being pointed out... but Sin is not about nature, it is about one Gods set of rules being broken, unless you go way back before the bible was even created in ancient Greek where the word meant to fall short of a target... which has no meaning in the context of this thread... because today the word Sin is mainly used in a christian context, and what was clearly being used in the first post...

the original quote was not an etymological analysis of the word sin. i just said "mistake" without explaining. normally i wouldn't need to explain it. i could have said error, wrongdoing, doing to others what you don't want to be done to you, all those things and more. the context of sin and what this mistake is with respect to God, your self and other humans, is the whole content of the bible. throughout the bible sin is explained, with many examples (parables).

Well the bible has been forced on people through the years and today is still pushed into people.... no i am not being forced to do it... and we all have a choice as you say.

many things have been forced and pushed to people in our history. this doesn't make those things unworthy or bad, forcing them by violence may be bad and very badly done in many cases.

But we also have a choice to project truth out to people.... if somone sold somone a car that was going to pack in, in a few months time but the person was not told this... I don't have to tell the person no, but It would be my choice to let them know they are not getting the car they think they are...

yes, this is the sin of lying, according to the bible.

is that made clear in the bible? .. I don't know... they are gods creatures too apparently.

this is my opinion, not the bible's opinion. if i am going to tell you the "bible's opinion" sort of, i will add "according to the bible". i am not a bible advocate.

this can alo be seen as a way of saying you must conform of you will suffer.... and its never to late to submit.

that being said there does appear to be a line to cross as if you cut off from god, you also risk being dammed to hell for eternity ...joining Satan.... so the heat is on!

no, it all has to do with conscience for people who do have that particular sense. there are people who lack conscience and just don't care about anything. these people cannot show any remorse or hesitation and don't seem to have human emotions at all. in science they are called psychopaths.

people who do have conscience, if they have done wrong, they suffer from guilt. and that's when the Satan dude comes in.

true, although you can try and make people see things be providing it for them to see... where most people are seeing today....

and no one is saying that religion should be banned as you would think so reading your post.... it is not a case of that, it is a case of education people thoroughly.... before they build their life values and faith around somthing.

everyone has the will to do as they like... if somone wants to build there life on Jesus Christ... Im not saying they should not be free to do so... Im saying a society should not be built on that for everyone else to conform too, which has happened throughout history... and i dont think people should be come down on for putting out alternative views and info on the religions... where they are constantly.

it makes me laugh how people can twist it as if people are trying to ban religion or something.... No, its about freedom and truth.... believing in a religion because you want to... not because you have been tricked to.... if people want there religion then FINE... have it... but why come to a David Icke forum to reassure them selves?

what?, are we all meant to have a system in place where we have to all pretend that the bible is the truth out of courtesy?

i am not talking about banning religion, this is not going to happen.

if christianity or any other religion ever gets "banned", it will be replaced by another religion, even if it is undercover.

this thread is about "reasons to not read the qur'an or the bible".

these reasons that were presented by the OP were garbage and they can be said for every book out there, ever for David Icke's books.

again not true, and you highlight how the bible is not from texts that are about Jusus Christ, that has just been mixed and matched.... the texts on Jesus have only been written by the so called Apostilles.... where Jesus is very clearly presented as being mankinds only way to heaven, go read it... you don't have to believe it, but don't tell me that's not what it says... and implyes all the way through the books..

where else can you learn about Jesus if not from the bible? you are suggesting that you don't need to know about Jesus.

OK, fine, lets say that you don't. but you are saying that already knowing about Jesus and you know about him from the bible.

i don't need to go read the bible again, you simply don't get it. and i am not going to explain the whole bible to you here (again).

You tell me, I don't know you. you ever have dark thoughts?... you have been an arse hole?

i don't think so. what are dark thoughts? how would i have been an arse hole?

your kidding right?

inferior to the God that it holds above you... and the obsticals that god has placed before you.

i am not kidding right now.

the bible makes people feel inferior to God? God is not a human being, not even a being that we know, so how can people feel inferior to something or someone that they don't know? do people feel inferior to their "higher selves" for example? i don't, but that's interesting.

has it ever made you feel inferior to God? how are you supposed to feel with respect to God?

as I have pointed out, I don think people should not study it, I am saying IMO I would not advice it as a good of truth and spiritual enlightenment....

maybe you're in the wrong thread then?

You need to look up sky in the dictionary.... the sky is the atmosphere and beyond that is visible to us.... that is the sky .. FACT.

and it is where the bible claims Jesus ascended off to...

there for a God somewhere in the sky is very much on target.

this is a misconception. it is caused by the things that parents tell their children, because the children are not capable to understand that there is an "infinite" universe beyond the sky.

God is not in our atmosphere. i mean that the bible doesn't state that the creator lives within the atmosphere of our planet separated from us.

this notion is childish and i suggest you wouldn't use this argument when chatting with adults.

I dont think you have read it, and have obviously not spoken to many christians on this forum....

I would agree he would have been more a son of God ...as we all are.... but as usual it also depicts HIM as god.... hence his name "Jesus Christ"

i am saying my opinion and i don't represent christians, or "christians of this forum", but me only. i disagree with many of the Christians' opinions in here if you wanna know.

saying that jesus is God, can't be anything but a metaphor. like we can say that potentially we are all God together with the whole of creation.

many heresies (arbitrary choices) claim many different things about the nature of Jesus. same thing goes for Mohammad, Buddha and other prominent religious personalities. everyone have their own theory, but the general consensus in the bible (that we are discussing here) is that Jesus is the only one son of God. they could be right, they could be wrong, it's not for me to judge because there's no way i know something like that for sure.

But only through faith in Christ and it also tells how how to go through christ...... there is a difference.

what do you understand when they say "through christ"? what do you think that means?

[bigus_dickus]

What kind of question is that? There isn’t room on here to show everywhere that religious books don’t tell the truth but it should be seen that they don’t always tell the truth, even from the few things I point out.

it was a trick question. can you show me a book that always tells the truth? how would you know?

I tend to agree with you but 2 Tim 3:16 of the bible can be interpreted as claiming otherwise.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness"

Originally Posted by bigus_dickus
the word Logos in the bible, means [that] reason and logic is derived from it. Did you know that?

Yes that would be a (partial) interpretation but where does the reason and logic come from? Another interpretation would be the conclusion I came to (which was without religious bias), that the Logos means the expression of the mind.

For context see my scribbles at http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41126

read again what i said without adding words to my sentence.

the Greek word for reason is logos (λόγος).

in Greek, when we want to say "what's the reason for this", we say "pios [einai] o logos gia.."

babelfish is your friend: http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

logos also means speech. "word" is lexi (from logos: i say = lego, you say = legeis) -> derivatives: lexicon

logos (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=logos)
1587, "second person of the Christian Trinity," from Gk. logos "word, speech, discourse," also "reason," from PIE base *leg- "to collect" (with derivatives meaning "to speak," on notion of "to pick out words"); used by Neo-Platonists in various metaphysical and theological senses and picked up by N.T. writers. Other Eng. formations from logos include logolatry "worship of words, unreasonable regard for words or verbal truth" (1810 in Coleridge); logomachy "fighting about words" (1569); logomania (1870); logophobia (1923); and logorrhea (1902).

logic (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=logic)
1362, "branch of philosophy that treats of forms of thinking," from O.Fr. logique, from L. (ars) logica, from Gk. logike (techne) "reasoning (art)," from fem. of logikos "pertaining to speaking or reasoning," from logos "reason, idea, word" (see logos). Meaning "logical argumentation" is from 1601. Logical attested 1500 as "pertaining to logic;" 1588 as "conformable to laws of reasoning;" 1860 as "following as a reasonable consequence."

hence, every term that ends with -logy indicates "talking about", for example anthropology = anthropos + logos = talk about humans.

Obviously a mistake is a mistake but there can be deliberate ‘mistakes’ – such as that despite the all the evidence, people deny that there are many contradictions against the truth in religion and religious books. Sin is deliberate wrongdoing rather than mistakes but we were not born to be cruel and hateful.

yes, read my previous post, the reply to thirdwave for that one.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define:heresy&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title
Heresy is when going against official views yet “God” was seen as someone in the sky by the Hebrews...

you see how many definitions for heresy there are.

but what does the word heresy mean?

it is simply the Greek word heresis (αίρεσις), thats gets transliterated to English as 'heresy'. this word means "choice".

heresy (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=heresy)
"an opinion of private men different from that of the catholick and orthodox church" [Johnson], c.1225, from O.Fr. heresie, from L. hæresis, "school of thought, philosophical sect," used by Christian writers for "unorthodox sect or doctrine," from Gk. hairesis "a taking or choosing," from haireisthai "take, seize," middle voice of hairein "to choose," of unknown origin. The Gk. word was used in N.T. in ref. to the Sadducees, Pharisees, and even the Christians, as sects of Judaism, but in Eng. bibles it is usually translated sect. Meaning "religious belief opposed to the orthodox doctrines of the Church" evolved in L.L. in the Dark Ages. Heretic (c.1330) is ult. from Gk. hairetikos "able to choose," the verbal adj. of hairein

it means that while someone is telling you something, you arbitrarily choose to believe something else.

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=pillar+of+fire

Then Moses, we are told, met with ‘God’ up a mountain who then gave Moses the Commandments which are said to be written by the ‘finger’ of 'God'. Not forgetting the incident where ‘God’ spoke to Moses from a burning bush and other supposed appearances of ‘God’.

Then did you know that angels were referred to as ‘Lord’ or YHWH? That’s right, in the Hebrew text, the name YHWH was given to angels whom the Hebrews have taken as representing God.

So what does this all mean? It means that the bible is about ETs (or angels or demons) and Judaeo-Christian religious people have built their faith on the say-so of distorted texts that tell of experiences with ETs of one nation, the Hebrews.

That YHWH (an angel or angels) few around in a cloud and was very jealous and nationalistic and often very cruel and hateful towards people of other nations. :mad: :(

That Hebrew 'God' was a mass murderer, yet people base their (blind) faith on the stories of the Hebrews! Then look at Israel today, as they continue in dreadful self-righteous warfare, while at the same time religious Jews are bobbing heads against a wall! :rolleyes:

It would be funny if the outcome of religion wasn’t so serious.

that's just your own interpretation of the bible and the projection of your own judgment for it from your personal point of view. i have already thought this stuff myself, but only after reading the bible.

however this thread is not about explaining the bible, or "the bible for dummies", or is it? i mean i wasn't going to get into a discussion about attempting to explain angels and demons in modern terminology, it's a different topic.

I didn’t have to read it!

where did you learn it from then?

Based on bible texts, religion has people looking outside of themselves for ‘God’ to come and help them.

where? the heavens? Jesus has said that the kingdom of heaven is "within you", how is that "outside"?

Enlightenment is to be found inside us but religious discipline often has people going against what we are inside and if, as we have been told, God is ‘perfect’ there would be no need to discipline anyone.

explain to me how you can find enlightenment inside of us without anything that has to do with commitment and discipline.

[tjohn]

it was a trick question. can you show me a book that always tells the truth? how would you know?

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" Yes that's what it says but I have problems with that. The bible is not in a religious sense "all scripture" but it is all scripture i.e. script or writing.

read again what i said without adding words to my sentence. Oh?

the Greek word for reason is logos (λόγος).

in Greek, when we want to say "what's the reason for this", we say "pios [einai] o logos gia.."

babelfish is your friend: http://babelfish.yahoo.com/

logos also means speech. "word" is lexi (from logos: i say = lego, you say = legeis) -> derivatives: lexicon

You prove my point! Word = the expression of the mind, as I said. Why do you have a problem with the concept that the expression of the mind means 'word'?? Then of course, we are not talking exclusively of vocal words as vibrations in the air.

logos (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=logos)
1587, "second person of the Christian Trinity," from Gk. logos "word, speech, discourse," also "reason," from PIE base *leg- "to collect" (with derivatives meaning "to speak," on notion of "to pick out words"); used by Neo-Platonists in various metaphysical and theological senses and picked up by N.T. writers. Other Eng. formations from logos include logolatry "worship of words, unreasonable regard for words or verbal truth" (1810 in Coleridge); logomachy "fighting about words" (1569); logomania (1870); logophobia (1923); and logorrhea (1902).
Again, the expression of the mind but this time a religious slant has been added ~ "second person of the Christian Trinity" on the presumption that "Word" equals (only) "Jesus".

logic (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=logic)
1362, "branch of philosophy that treats of forms of thinking," from O.Fr. logique, from L. (ars) logica, from Gk. logike (techne) "reasoning (art)," from fem. of logikos "pertaining to speaking or reasoning," from logos "reason, idea, word" (see logos). Meaning "logical argumentation" is from 1601. Logical attested 1500 as "pertaining to logic;" 1588 as "conformable to laws of reasoning;" 1860 as "following as a reasonable consequence."

hence, every term that ends with -logy indicates "talking about", for example anthropology = anthropos + logos = talk about humans. Nope, not just "talking about" but the whole expression of the mind!

you see how many definitions for heresy there are.

but what does the word heresy mean?

it is simply the Greek word heresis (αίρεσις), thats gets transliterated to English as 'heresy'. this word means "choice" I can agree with that!

that's just your own interpretation of the bible and the projection of your own judgment for it from your personal point of view. i have already thought this stuff myself, but only after reading the bible. Well good for you!

however this thread is not about explaining the bible, or "the bible for dummies", or is it? i mean i wasn't going to get into a discussion about attempting to explain angels and demons in modern terminology, it's a different topic. Sadly, using terms such as angels and demons are required to get through to some people. The bible cannot prove itself by itself but what is written in the bible does prove that it is a mishmash of truth and lies.

where did you learn it from then? Are you about to tell me that everything you know comes from books???

where? the heavens? Jesus has said that the kingdom of heaven is "within you", how is that "outside"? Because Christians and Jews (and others) expect 'God' to come down from heaven to help them! They pray to a god outside of themselves!

explain to me how you can find enlightenment inside of us without anything that has to do with commitment and discipline. It does not rely on any religious discipline! All we need to do is examine who we really are - not what the world or religion tells us who we are - so correct me if I am wrong, you say that the truth is inside us.

[bigus_dickus]

Yes that's what it says but I have problems with that. The bible is not in a religious sense "all scripture" but it is all scripture i.e. script or writing.

at that time that it was written, almost all writing was scripture. and all scripture was religious. people started writing by writing religious books. books have come into existence out of the necessity to write and copy religious texts. reading became a necessity when people wanted to study religious books. if it wasn't for religion, reading and writing and the evolution of books would not have happened and spread all over the world the way it did.

You prove my point! Word = the expression of the mind, as I said. Why do you have a problem with the concept that the expression of the mind means 'word'?? Then of course, we are not talking exclusively of vocal words as vibrations in the air.

i didn't deny that it is an expression of the mind. what isn't?

Again, the expression of the mind but this time a religious slant has been added ~ "second person of the Christian Trinity" on the presumption that "Word" equals (only) "Jesus".

what's your point?

Nope, not just "talking about" but the whole expression of the mind!

you think you're insulting me by calling me "big dick he is"?

yes it is an expression of the mind, so what? is that all you got to say? this is probably my last reply to you, go play somewhere else.

Are you about to tell me that everything you know comes from books???

no, i invented everything myself. :rolleyes:

Because Christians and Jews (and others) expect 'God' to come down from heaven to help them! They pray to a god outside of themselves!

well, they are wrong. and they are wrong because they haven't been reading the bible themselves.

It does not rely on any religious discipline! All we need to do is examine who we really are - not what the world or religion tells us who we are - so correct me if I am wrong, you say that the truth is inside us.

the truth is not inside or outside you, it is nowhere. the truth is you.

i don't wish to explain that further to you, have a nice day.

[kidsarocker]

Zeuitgust come as such a threat to christans like Christ White from NWTR?

Zeitgeist is not 100% fact (Krishna was not born of a virgin as he was the eight offspring of his parents - for one mistake). I don't think it is a threat to Christians - seems they are only pointing out a bad exam paper.

Do you see Christianity as a threat to you?

The whole zeitgeist movie is of little importance anyway... this film tries to highlight the similarities between Jesus and other deities, - One of the main ones is his birth date - Not once in the bible does it state Jesus was born in December - when was the last time you saw lambs in winter?

[elirien]

Zeitgeist is not 100% fact (Krishna was not born of a virgin as he was the eight offspring of his parents - for one mistake). I don't think it is a threat to Christians - seems they are only pointing out a bad exam paper.

Do you see Christianity as a threat to you?

The whole zeitgeist movie is of little importance anyway... this film tries to highlight the similarities between Jesus and other deities, - One of the main ones is his birth date - Not once in the bible does it state Jesus was born in December - when was the last time you saw lambs in winter?

Weird coincidence. Just watched a debate about Christmas where the speaker said that it is not the birthdate of Jesus according to the bible where it says something in the lines of that the shepherds where grazing their flock at night (which would kill both the shepherd and the flock if it was December).

[converger]

this is a blasphemy!!!!

[armoured_amazon]

I have studied the Bible for around 30 years

You can study it for a lifetime; without the Holy Spirit as a guide, you may as well stare at your navel.

[catch22]

You can study it for a lifetime; without the Holy Spirit as a guide, you may as well stare at your navel.

my navel is real unlike the stories in the bible, like Jonah, who was swallowed by a big whale and then barfed up on the shore.(dont even get me started on this story. but a guy who lived in the stomach of a creature for 3 days and wasnt killed by stomach acid, no water, or air...yeah ok!) what holy shit

[armoured_amazon]

my navel is real unlike the stories in the bible, like Jonah, who was swallowed by a big whale and then barfed up on the shore.(dont even get me started on this story. but a guy who lived in the stomach of a creature for 3 days and wasnt killed by stomach acid, no water, or air...yeah ok!) what holy shit

To you, it is. To me, it's words you typed on a computer screen.

[tannah]

You can study it for a lifetime; without the Holy Spirit as a guide, you may as well stare at your navel.


What arrogant garbage.

[decode reality]

6 reasons to NOT read the Qur'an or the Bible & 1 reason to read them

1) They do not always tell the truth!
2) They are not inspired of God more than what I write on this page
3) They were written and are used for mind control and blind faith but I ask that we use reason rather than blind faith.
4) It’s not in our true nature to sin against good people or (the real) God.
5) God is not a man in the sky as such (this mostly applies to Judaism and Christianity)
6) God is in everything and in every cell of our body
7) Therefore we shouldn’t need to look outside ourselves for enlightenment although because humanity has been so brainwashed through religion, sometimes we do need to look in order to see where we have been deceived.

Can anyone really prove the above wrong – without quoting text from the Bible or the Qur'an?

I rest my case.

Take it away brothers and sisters and remember to think for yourselves, not blindly follow what you have been told to believe because of what is written in a ‘holy’ book or said by religious leaders…

Good post, John.

I just don't feel any need to join a religion. It would be like a musician going to study music at a university and finding that they can only teach but so much- like religion. What the musician seeks to learn can only be found outside the university and within him/herself.

I think the religions are security blankets for some people. It's not to condemn anyone who practises them. I've spoken with Christians and Muslims and have found that they can extract the real wisdom and universal truths. But this is it- UNIVERSAL TRUTHS. In other words, not unique to one particular faith or "no faith", for that matter. So why can't we just deal with the universals and discard all these names, sects and denominations that have millions of people at war with each other? :mad: Sadly, there are people who have such a strong emotional attachment to them that to ask questions of the religion (its origin, veracity of teachings etc) is a no-go area.

[catch22]

To you, it is. To me, it's words you typed on a computer screen.

what i typed was punishable by the common law courts until The common law offences of blasphemy and blasphemous libel were abolished in 2008. and just looking up The last person in Britain to be sent to prison for blasphemy was John William Gott on 9 December 1921. He was prosecuted for publishing two pamphlets entitled Rib Ticklers, or Questions for Parsons and God and Gott. In these pamphlets Gott satirised the biblical story of Jesus entering Jerusalem (Matthew 21:2-7) comparing Jesus to a circus clown. He was sentenced to nine months' hard labour despite suffering from an incurable illness, and died shortly after he was released. Don't forget if you blaspheme against Islam you get a Fatwa.
love and peace

[decode reality]

my navel is real unlike the stories in the bible, like Jonah, who was swallowed by a big whale and then barfed up on the shore.(dont even get me started on this story. but a guy who lived in the stomach of a creature for 3 days and wasnt killed by stomach acid, no water, or air...yeah ok!) what holy shit

If I might jump in here...

The big mistake made by countless religious "teachers" is their unawareness that these kinds of stories are metaphors (right brain) and not to be taken literal (left brain) The Jonah story is a classic example of that. The Jesus story depicting the activities of the sun is another. There's an older body of esoteric teachings that religions have taken from. To use a simpler reference, they're like parables that use these right brain oriented stories to impart certain spiritual development lessons.

I say "unawareness" knowing full well that in the hieracrchy, the people who run each religion ARE aware of the fairy tales they are peddling. But the religions would rather have the people coming in every week believing them without question than empower them with truth. Deception (mixed in with smidgens of universal truth) is good business in religion. If they told the truth they'd be finished.

[armoured_amazon]

what i typed was punishable by the common law courts until The common law offences of blasphemy and blasphemous libel were abolished in 2008. and just looking up The last person in Britain to be sent to prison for blasphemy was John William Gott on 9 December 1921. He was prosecuted for publishing two pamphlets entitled Rib Ticklers, or Questions for Parsons and God and Gott. In these pamphlets Gott satirised the biblical story of Jesus entering Jerusalem (Matthew 21:2-7) comparing Jesus to a circus clown. He was sentenced to nine months' hard labour despite suffering from an incurable illness, and died shortly after he was released. Don't forget if you blaspheme against Islam you get a Fatwa.
love and peace

I'm not responsible for other people's past deeds, only my own future ones.

[danceswithbunnies]

The truths are simple..
Applying them is the difficult part.

[catch22]

I'm not responsible for other people's past deeds, only my own future ones.

but how can one have faith in a book that punished people if you don't believe in it?