Similarities between Jesus and Horus??

[element]

BS, 2/3 of the population will not be unbelievers it will be the believers - only 2% of the worlds population are athiests.

The dajjal will rule from jerusalem and if you refuse the mark you will die - so this goes to anyone not just unbelievers who refuse to bow down to the Dajjal
Dajjal is so 2006, I thought Maitreya was in now..NO wait, that's 2008...we need something fresh! :D

[kidsarocker]

Im not sure if it's been said before. Horus was the conqueror of Set. Set being the manifestation of 'Evil'. Horus was thus the conqueror of Evil and all the emanations of Evil.

Do you disagree that Jesus was like that?

Jesus in modern times has become that of Hero worship. It would take one living in the time of Jesus to really figure out what is true about the real man and which is not. Could the same thing have perpetuated with Horus? Could Horus have just been a brilliant kind and loving man that brought light to the world, only for his memory to succumb to Hero Worship?

Unless you lived in the time of Horus, (the real man if there was one) you will never know.

Horus a good man?? you gotta be kidding me. I suggest you read about aliestar crowley, Lam and Horus

[kidsarocker]

Ok, now I'm curious.

What worldly pleasures are you refering to?
What exactly is a worldly pleasure in your book, or the good book?



Make up?

Is it ok to say, use a spade to dig the garden to grow my own food or is the spade a worldy pleasure?

Or if I use matches to light a fire to cook the potato's I grew, is that a worldly pleasure?

The TV is out, and the car, and all my possessions so I'm naked, with no matches and no spade, and no money, and thanks to being made in the image of God I have no fur to keep me warm, no claws to dig in the earth for grubs to eat, and if I did eat them then I would catch some disease becasue my immune system is not strong enough to deal with the bugs and dirty water I would have to drink.

So basically, if I strive to be cold, naked, hungry, penniless, homeless, while making sure I am wearing no make up = the way to feed my soul?




ERMMMM, I think I'll stick to meditation.

Shit you don't need, like jewellery, make up, greed, fame, everything that constitutes to fake.

Meditation brings you to God

[kidsarocker]

Dajjal is so 2006, I thought Maitreya was in now..NO wait, that's 2008...we need something fresh! :D

The Dajjal has been around for a long time

Just don't get do you? coming on a david icke website believing everything he says that makes you so damn arrogant that your more enlightened than anyone else.

We are not Gods, we are not one consciousness.

You can believe whatever you want but when the time comes for you to be judge you will feel very small and beg for Gods forgiveness

[element]

We are not Gods, we are not one consciousness.

You can believe whatever you want but when the time comes for you to be judge you will feel very small and beg for Gods forgiveness
I don't think I am God. I also believe we are all individual souls, who will not join a lake of fusionism or something.

Your fear and judgemental tactics will not work on me. :)
.

[thirdwave]

What makes you think you are right?

My word I have to stand back in amazement when people ask this...

It is not me that has to be right... I am not the one claiming the words of god.. and to law of man kind.

Who ever is, well THEY are the ones who must prove to be right.

Us guys are simply asking questions and exploring research beyond what we have been handed by the organised institutions.... that brought us Jesus and the bible.


I bet you would believe any disinfor thrown in with the info, I could make a film like Zeitgeist and make 2 parts of it fact and one part false.

And what makes the bible not disinfo?.... the Z films don't talk about anything that consists of walking on water ...turning water into wine... raising from the dead... and suffering a brutal death to save you and I from OUR sins.

there for ANYTHING in the Z films that cant be proven are still just as tangible as the bible... only not as supported by the government's of our times.. as religions where in the past.

So without even having to try and drill the info and the concepts behind such DVDs into people... it already has a strong footing... I don't even care if there is some faulty info the message is SPOT ON and will continue to expand as it has done with more books coming out since..



People say that the elite are destroying religion now because the tool has become obsolete. That is complete BS,

No its not BS... its %100 spot on... because the elite have ALLWAYS used to to control the masses and it is only as time as gone by and people have not been so thick as to think if a gay couple make love they will go to hell... of that if you dont believe Jesus if your god.. you will burn in hell... that shit has kind of warn off... and they know it...

take a look around.


let me tell you something - only 2% of the worlds population are athiests

Bullshit. and I dont care what "charts" you show me... I would say though that most people today are open to a spiritual concept of reality... but are no where near a bible or what ever... as much as the elite would love them to be.

so why would they disgregard "a tool of control" if 98 % have a religion.

first of all you seem to have an ignorance that anyone that is not an atheist is religious.... eeerrrr, no... you dont have to be a fucking Christian or Muslim to believe in God... in fact I would say those are poor ways of believing in a god.. IMO.

2% atheists is bullshit anyway... my family are a catholic family.. so we would be charted down as so... though none of us go to church or are religious at all, and I could not give a rats are about Jesus .. so you can wipe us lot out or that list and all the other "Christian" families that have crammed in there... none of us our atheists either ny the way...

Just because you don't believe in Jesus or have a religion, it does not mean you are an Atheist... did you know that?


The elite are attacking monotheistic religions because it stands in their way for the NWO and the arrival of the Anti Christ.

100% bull shit.

religioun is used for the USA to have a foot in the middle east.. how on earth can you think they ARE TRYING TO GET RID OF IT?? no that's not what I mean... I mean they are no longer useing it to Govern us!... they do that with computers and finance now.

but take a look at the world and see how religion benefits the elite...?

how many of those % you boast about voted for Bush because he was a "man of god"?

The elite have gone beyond useing religion... it used to be to confuse and miss lead our spiritual path... but now they have managed to get people to not every fucking bother... So why they need it...

and the very fact you are so hot and bothered about the elite killing it means that its not the real deal anyway...

"oh no, we dont want people not believing in Jesus or they might all be bad"..

Well if the human race needs such guidance with out nature simply assisting it. then we should all burn anyway, as we don't deserve freedom or salvation.

simple as that.

[miracles]

[quote=thirdwave;1012938]My word I have to stand back in amazement when people ask this...

It is not me that has to be right... I am not the one claiming the words of god.. and to law of man kind.

Who ever is, well THEY are the ones who must prove to be right.


God brought us Jesus and the bible: Thank you Lord :) (regardless as to how men pervert it as we pervert everything, it's what we do). It's already been proven, thats why a million and one disinf merchants cant prove A what they believe, and B that the bible is not the inspired word of God. Its a done deal and will never be debunked or eroded. And people who attempt this are part of the problem, not part of the solution, before this issue is settled the powers that be are winning the propoganda war that you think you are fighting.

[thirdwave]

God brought us Jesus and the bible: Thank you Lord :) (regardless as to how men pervert it as we pervert everything, it's what we do). It's already been proven, thats why a million and one disinf merchants cant prove A what they believe, and B that the bible is not the inspired word of God. Its a done deal and will never be debunked or eroded. And people who attempt this are part of the problem, not part of the solution, before this issue is settled the powers that be are winning the propoganda war that you think you are fighting.


I don't expect you to not think that and nor do I care to convince you of the truth... however people like you are a good platform to put truth out... a good reflection for those to see real truth.

I guess I am like the snake in the garden of Eden... Im not going to tell A&E what fruit to eat...and I wont offer the rules... but I will point out the tree of knowledge.

So I do fully support the enemy of your God :D

[miracles]

I don't expect you to not think that and nor do I care to convince you of the truth... however people like you are a good platform to put truth out... a good reflection for those to see real truth.

I guess I am like the snake in the garden of Eden... Im not going to tell A&E what fruit to eat...and I wont offer the rules... but I will point out the tree of knowledge.

So I do fully support the enemy of your God :D

Yes I know you do but the sorry thing is you think it's just a funny game, I know its real.

[drakul]

I don't expect you to not think that and nor do I care to convince you of the truth... however people like you are a good platform to put truth out... a good reflection for those to see real truth.

I guess I am like the snake in the garden of Eden... Im not going to tell A&E what fruit to eat...and I wont offer the rules... but I will point out the tree of knowledge.

So I do fully support the enemy of your God :D

You speak of `TRUTH' What truth??? Truth requires EVIDENCE.

So far you have not presented any proof that Jesus is a copy of the Egyptian Horus. NO just that Murdock said it so it must be true. So you BELIEVE. TW talk about `Christards', You are one of the biggest Believers on here. You don't question, you don't ask for primary evidence. No. All because a few `alternative history' authors said it then it must be the `TRUTH', case closed.

What about what the Egyptians themselves said? What about their millions of pictographs, wall paintings, statues, etc.? What about the PRIMARY SOURCES - THE EGYPTIAN PEOPLE THEMSELVES??? Where is the CRUCIFIED HORUS?

Nowhere of course. The Egyptians did not even practice crucifixion. The Greeks and especially the Romans did it but not the Egyptians.

No-ooo you avoid presenting or asking for any primary evidence because the fact is, you don't know a damn thing about Egyptology and you don't want to learn, (that's what makes people like you so easy to fool by the Murdocks, the Tsarions and the Maxwells out there).

You clearly know nothing about Egyptology and you're too lazy to do any research; so you avoid the real topic of this thread like the plague.

BTW - The more research I do on HORUS, the more surprised I am at how LITTLE his story ressembles that of Jesus Christ. Egyptology is so easily obtainable...there's no exscuse....

[mephibosheth]

Dajjal is so 2006, I thought Maitreya was in now..NO wait, that's 2008...we need something fresh! :D

That's what Obama is for.

:eek:

[eternal_spirit]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kidsarocker http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1011709#post1011709)
BS, 2/3 of the population will not be unbelievers it will be the believers - only 2% of the worlds population are athiests.

The dajjal will rule from jerusalem and if you refuse the mark you will die - so this goes to anyone not just unbelievers who refuse to bow down to the Dajjal

Dajjal is so 2006, I thought Maitreya was in now..NO wait, that's 2008...we need something fresh! :D
:D
Probably a hybrid Dajjreya a Jeshorus

[thirdwave]

Yes I know you do but the sorry thing is you think it's just a funny game, I know its real.

No although I always make sure I can laugh at something.. I don't support Lucifer because I think its a funny game..

No, its because I simply fully support Lucifer... and oppose your god...

While you are free to be his slave... I am free to be Lucifers friend.

no joke about it.. I am 110% genuine and whole heartedly mean what I say.

[thirdwave]

You speak of `TRUTH' What truth??? Truth requires EVIDENCE.

So far you have not presented any proof that Jesus is a copy of the Egyptian Horus. NO just that Murdock said it so it must be true. So you BELIEVE. TW talk about `Christards', You are one of the biggest Believers on here. You don't question, you don't ask for primary evidence. No. All because a few `alternative history' authors said it then it must be the `TRUTH', case closed.

What about what the Egyptians themselves said? What about their millions of pictographs, wall paintings, statues, etc.? What about the PRIMARY SOURCES - THE EGYPTIAN PEOPLE THEMSELVES??? Where is the CRUCIFIED HORUS?

Nowhere of course. The Egyptians did not even practice crucifixion. The Greeks and especially the Romans did it but not the Egyptians.

No-ooo you avoid presenting or asking for any primary evidence because the fact is, you don't know a damn thing about Egyptology and you don't want to learn, (that's what makes people like you so easy to fool by the Murdocks, the Tsarions and the Maxwells out there).

You clearly know nothing about Egyptology and you're too lazy to do any research; so you avoid the real topic of this thread like the plague.

BTW - The more research I do on HORUS, the more surprised I am at how LITTLE his story ressembles that of Jesus Christ. Egyptology is so easily obtainable...there's no exscuse....


Im not going to get in a merry go round of argument with a pig headed christian...

the information has been pointed out.. you have not even read the book and have not listened to what people have said about it you have just defended your god without question..

The truth is coming out ... all the time... I am in no rush to convince you... I am happy to sit back and wait ....

The story of Jesus is an occult story built up on other myths... stories and people... this is the truth.

simple as that.

[miracles]

No although I always make sure I can laugh at something.. I don't support Lucifer because I think its a funny game..

No, its because I simply fully support Lucifer... and oppose your god...

While you are free to be his slave... I am free to be Lucifers friend.

no joke about it.. I am 110% genuine and whole heartedly mean what I say.

Thanks for clarifying that - how do you then feel about the concept that in this case, you and I are enemies both physical and spiritual enemies that may one day have to fight to the death????

Edit - not that this is something I am desireous of. But lets cut to the chase.

[uncia]

Which version of Horus?

Please state the particular era of Horus.

There are many spurious claims about Horus floating around, and it is also the fact that he appeared in many different guises at different times. This is probably why unbelievers are able to detect more apparent similarities between Horus and Christ than with other gods (demons). If a god has a 3000 year story line, then its a fair bet that so many stories will have been created about him in that time, that apparent, but spurious, similarities can be found.

As I understand it, Isis - from Ishtar - wasn't a virgin but a whore.

[element]

The story of Jesus is an occult story built up on other myths... stories and people... this is the truth.

simple as that.
Maybe Jesus was real, but the mythical lore and symbolism has been added by the influential, to trick the people and to convert the pagans.
It still doesn't mean Jesus did not exist.

.

[element]

That's what Obama is for.

:eek:
Ah that's right!

Well they can enjoy that for now, until he will be assassinated later on. (good chance)

[kasalt]

I don't think you're right Drakul. The sacrifices were not ordained to be stopped till Jesus had died, and the temple curtain was rent in twain, indicating that the way into the Holy of Holies was now open by faith his atonement by his blood and that there was no further need for them.

Where is it written in the Old Testament that when the Messiah came, animal sacrifices were "ordained to be stopped"?

In his eight chapter prophecy of the Temple under the reign of the Messiah (chapters 40-47), Ezekiel mentions animal sacrifice several times. The most notable passages regarding animal sacrifice during this time are Ezekiel 43:18-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2043:18-27;&version=64;) and 45:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2045:22;&version=64;).

[uncia]

Where is it written in the Old Testament that when the Messiah came, animal sacrifices were "ordained to be stopped"?

In his eight chapter prophecy of the Temple under the reign of the Messiah (chapters 40-47), Ezekiel mentions animal sacrifice several times. The most notable are 43:18-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2043:18-27;&version=64;) and 45:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2045:22;&version=64;).
It is clear that animal sacrifices were not God's long term solution:

Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Psalm 40:6 (New International Version)

6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but my ears you have pierced [a] , [b] ;
burnt offerings and sin offerings
you did not require.

Footnotes:

1. Psalm 40:6 Hebrew; Septuagint but a body you have prepared for me (see also Symmachus and Theodotion)
2. Psalm 40:6 Or opened

It seems also apparent that in the last days, God's people would have no need to offer sacrifice, for:
Joel 2
26 You will have plenty to eat, until you are full,
and you will praise the name of the LORD your God,
who has worked wonders for you;
never again will my people be shamed.

27 Then you will know that I am in Israel,
that I am the LORD your God,
and that there is no other;
never again will my people be shamed

[kasalt]

It is clear that animal sacrifices were not God's long term solution:

It seems also apparent that in the last days, God's people would have no need to offer sacrifice, for:

Then Israel should not be practicing animal sacrifice during the reign of the messiah, as Ezekiel 43:18-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2043:18-27;&version=64;) and 45:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2045:22;&version=64;) clearly states they will.

[uncia]

Then Israel should not be practicing animal sacrifice during the reign of the messiah, as Ezekiel 43:18-27 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2043:18-27;&version=64;) and 45:22 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2045:22;&version=64;) clearly states they will.Who says these passages refer to the reign of the Messiah?

[kasalt]

Who says these passages refer to the reign of the Messiah?

Many Jews as well as Christians believe this:
Since the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%2870%29 in 70 CE, religious Jews have prayed that God will allow for the building of a Third Temple. This prayer has been a formal part of the traditional thrice daily Jewish prayer services. Though it remains unbuilt, the notion of and desire for a Third Temple is sacred in Judaism, particularly Orthodox Judaism, as an unrealized place of worship. The prophets in the Tanakh called for its construction to be fulfilled in the Jewish messianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia era.
Unused ancient Jewish floor plans for a Temple exist in various sources, notably in Chapters 40-47 of Ezekiel...
Source: Wikipedia, "Third Temple", url: Third Temple - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[uncia]

Many Jews as well as Christians believe this
I don't. Check Ezekiel 47: such a river is quite impossible to engineer. It's a non-starter. It's a vision. Live with it.

[kasalt]

I don't. Check Ezekiel 47: such a river is quite impossible to engineer. It's a non-starter. It's a vision. Live with it.

That's why it will take the messiah to do it!

If the river were not literal, why would other passages of Scripture mention the river as well? Psalm 46:4 mentions a river which will make Jerusalem glad. Joel 3:18's millennial prediction envisions a fountain coming out of the temple and watering the valley of Shittim in which the Dead Sea is located. In fact, the millennial changes, predicted by Zechariah and Ezekiel are simply a microcosm of the healing of the curse that will take place all over the world.
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/river.htm

[uncia]

That's why it will take the messiah to do it!

If the river were not literal, why would other passages of Scripture mention the river as well? Psalm 46:4 mentions a river which will make Jerusalem glad. Joel 3:18's millennial prediction envisions a fountain coming out of the temple and watering the valley of Shittim in which the Dead Sea is located. In fact, the millennial changes, predicted by Zechariah and Ezekiel are simply a microcosm of the healing of the curse that will take place all over the world.
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/river.htm
The Messiah has already done it.

[uncia]

Going back to the topic, I see from http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/luxor.html that every Pharaoh, every son of a Pharaoh, and even the wife of a Pharaoh, claimed to be Horus. Since anyone who was anyone claimed to be Horus, it is not surprising that modern commentators have a field day reading into the temple hieroglyphics anything they want about Horus, deliberately perverting their conclusions so as to try to make them accord with Christ. It seems ludicrous.

I think the logic goes something like this: Horus was a god who was born, Christ was God who was born, therefore Christ was Horus. The logic and the proof leave a lot to be desired.

[thirdwave]

It is clear that animal sacrifices were not God's long term solution:






totally... i think he just though the killing of innocent creatures to make up for the braking of his rules for humans as a great temporary way to feed his thirst for blood.

I think When Jesus shed all that blood I think he knew that there would still be shit loads of blood shed after anyway so he though, "we'll, ok, as long as I can fuck Jesus up then I wont make you kill things when your bad anymore.... I will just get off on you killing each other"!

:rolleyes:

[thirdwave]

Thanks for clarifying that - how do you then feel about the concept that in this case, you and I are enemies both physical and spiritual enemies that may one day have to fight to the death????

Edit - not that this is something I am desireous of. But lets cut to the chase.

Well the ball would very much be in your court.

as I do not seek to oppress anyone... but will never allow people to oppress me... I will say what I like about your god... believe what I wish about him... and see what ever truth about him I wish.. and tell people what ever I want about him....

Should you try to prevent me from doing this then I would be more than happy to engage in conflict with you.... which is simply human nature.

You can go to church, kneel to your lord and preach about your faith as much as you like.... it means jack shit to me, as long as I can say my bit I could not care a less.

Its a case of if you are talking about starting up another inquisition or if you are talking about info wars.

[thirdwave]

Maybe Jesus was real, but the mythical lore and symbolism has been added by the influential, to trick the people and to convert the pagans.
It still doesn't mean Jesus did not exist.

.

many people called Jesus probably existed.... and many prophets have existed.. and many have probably been killed for their efforts... that's all I need to know.

[uncia]

totally... i think ... I think....
You think wrong. Try doing some research first before regurgitating your prejudices. Do I really want to hear them? I am beginning to take a very dim view of the quality of posts on this board. More a forum for ignoramuses to spout out their prejudices than a forum to discuss topics objectively.

[drakul]

You think wrong. Try doing some research first before regurgitating your prejudices. Do I really want to hear them? I am beginning to take a very dim view of the quality of posts on this board. More a forum for ignoramuses to spout out their prejudices than a forum to discuss topics objectively.

I've been doing quite a bit of research, to learn more about Egyptology, just to make up my own mind about these `Christ in Egypt' issues. The more I read the more I realize what a huge step forward Christianity was in the spiritual progress of mankind. Egyptian religion was in many ways a very primitive religion. For example - the Egyptians had animal sacrifice plantations where animals were raised for sacrifice, such as cats, baboons, birds, especially ibis, crocodiles, cattle, etc. A person who wanted something would go there, order an animal sacrificed and pay to have it embalmed. It was believed that the animals KA - spirit would fly up to the gods and whisper the wish of that person in the god's ear. In one of these animal sacrifice plantations approx 4 MILLION mummified ibis have been found. This practice made certain species of ibis go extinct in Egypt, formerly a very common bird.

I mean this `god' Horus walks around with the HEAD OF A BIRD. Not only that it's a cruel rapacious bird, a pure predator - the hawk. How spiritual or Christlike is that? No matter how much you try to dress this kind of religion up, it's still primitive and cruel.

[kasalt]

The Messiah has already done it.

The Messiah has already done what?

[uncia]

The Messiah has already done what?
Made the rivers flow out of the temple in Jerusalem.

You see the temple that Ezekiel described was a perfect temple, one that was in fact an emblem of Christ. Whilst on earth Christ said that the temple was his body, and that streams of living water would flow from him.

[uncia]

I've been doing quite a bit of research, to learn more about Egyptology, just to make up my own mind about these `Christ in Egypt' issues. The more I read the more I realize what a huge step forward Christianity was in the spiritual progress of mankind. Egyptian religion was in many ways a very primitive religion. For example - the Egyptians had animal sacrifice plantations where animals were raised for sacrifice, such as cats, baboons, birds, especially ibis, crocodiles, cattle, etc. A person who wanted something would go there, order an animal sacrificed and pay to have it embalmed. It was believed that the animals KA - spirit would fly up to the gods and whisper the wish of that person in the god's ear. In one of these animal sacrifice plantations approx 4 MILLION mummified ibis have been found. This practice made certain species of ibis go extinct in Egypt, formerly a very common bird.

I mean this `god' Horus walks around with the HEAD OF A BIRD. Not only that it's a cruel rapacious bird, a pure predator - the hawk. How spiritual or Christlike is that? No matter how much you try to dress this kind of religion up, it's still primitive and cruel.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that many of the so called attributes of Horus ascribed to Christ are actually engraved in hieroglyphics on temples etc. Did it never occur to anyone that by the time of Christ, the hieroglyphics were actually indecipherable and so could not have been used as the basis of any story of Christ. I especially refer to the so called virgin birth scene from the temple at Luxor.

[vinnyharris]

drakul "I've been doing quite a bit of research, to learn more about Egyptology, just to make up my own mind about these `Christ in Egypt' issues. The more I read the more I realize what a huge step forward Christianity was in the spiritual progress of mankind. Egyptian religion was in many ways a very primitive religion...."

Thanks for the extremely biased views, drakul. Never mind that the NT starts off with HUMAN SACRIFICE & just be sure to omit the murder by Jesus/God of 2/3rds the human population in the end times. Never mind all the species going extinct in our own era too. So, keep your blinders on & it will be easy for you to maintain the fraud behind your own beliefs.

And, where are any "wonders of world" left behind by Christianity? The Egyptians left much fantastic records.

"...Contrary to popular belief, the ancients were not an ignorant and superstitious lot who actually believed their deities to be literal characters. Indeed, this slanderous propaganda has been part of the conspiracy to make the ancients appear as if they were truly the dark and dumb rabble that was in need of the "light of Jesus."73 The reality is that the ancients were no less advanced in their morals and spiritual practices, and in many cases were far more advanced, than the Christians in their own supposed morality and ideology, which, in its very attempt at historicity, is in actuality a degradation of the ancient Mythos. Indeed, unlike the "superior" Christians, the true intelligentsia amongst the ancients were well aware that their gods were astronomical and atmospheric in nature. Socrates, Plato and Aristotle74 surely knew that Zeus, the sky god father figure who migrated to Greece from India and/or Egypt, was never a real person, despite the fact that the Greeks have designated on Crete both a birth cave and a death cave of Zeus. In addition, all over the world are to be found sites where this god or that allegedly was born, walked, suffered, died, etc., a common and unremarkable occurrence that is not monopolized by, and did not originate with, Christianity."

http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins5.htm

[vinnyharris]

kasalt "The Messiah has already done what?"

uncia "Made the rivers flow out of the temple in Jerusalem.

You see the temple that Ezekiel described was a perfect temple, one that was in fact an emblem of Christ. Whilst on earth Christ said that the temple was his body, and that streams of living water would flow from him."

Wow, no extreme biases there at all. So long as it's Christian then there's no real skepticism by either drakul or uncia.

uncia "Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that many of the so called attributes of Horus ascribed to Christ are actually engraved in hieroglyphics on temples etc. Did it never occur to anyone that by the time of Christ, the hieroglyphics were actually indecipherable and so could not have been used as the basis of any story of Christ. I especially refer to the so called virgin birth scene from the temple at Luxor."

Again with the extreme biases & bigotry. There is much that was stuccoed over or buried by Christians attempting to censor or cover up what they could at many places that ended up preserving them much better for a later date. So, thanks for that. Again, you're skeptical of the virgin birth scene at Luxor but you never question any of the nonsense pumped out by Christianity. No need to admit your biases & bigotry it's as clear as glass in nearly every post by you & drakul.

Isis (Meri?) - A Pre-Christian Virgin? Part I - YouTube

[1977]

Drakul feels that Christianity is morally superior to Paganism—which it may very well be—and thus finds it necessary to defend it. But hopefully, no-one here is seriously trying to convert anyone to the Ancient Egyptian cult of Osiris, so such protestations seem entirely beside the point.
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that many of the so called attributes of Horus ascribed to Christ are actually engraved in hieroglyphics on temples etc. Did it never occur to anyone that by the time of Christ, the hieroglyphics were actually indecipherable and so could not have been used as the basis of any story of Christ. I especially refer to the so called virgin birth scene from the temple at Luxor.
And you indeed would be wrong. Hieroglyphs continued to be read and written for many centuries after Christ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_hieroglyphs#History_and_evolution

By the 4th century, few Egyptians were capable of reading hieroglyphs, and the myth of allegorical hieroglyphs was ascendant. Monumental use of hieroglyphs ceased after the closing of all non-Christian temples in AD 391 by the Roman Emperor Theodosius I; the last known inscription is from Philae, known as the The Graffito of Esmet-Akhom, from AD 396.[9]
Much drama in these threads could be foregone by people taking the time to do the most basic of research.

[drakul]

[QUOTE]Thanks for the extremely biased views, drakul. Never mind that the NT starts off with HUMAN SACRIFICE Pls be SPECIFIC. Are you referring to King Herod's slaughter of the innocents (in his efforts to kill the baby Jesus)?

& just be sure to omit the murder by Jesus/God of 2/3rds the human population in the end times.

I don't read Revelations. I don't take it seriously. There was huge opposition to putting Revelations in the Bible. Like the Old Testament of the Jews, I don't think it has anything to do with Christianity or the God of Jesus.

Never mind all the species going extinct in our own era too.

??? :confused: And that has to do with Horus? Or Jesus?

So, keep your blinders on & it will be easy for you to maintain the fraud behind your own beliefs.

So you admit the FRAUD in your claims that Horus was Jesus?

And, where are any "wonders of world" left behind by Christianity? The Egyptians left much fantastic records.

Don't you READ HISTORY??? - The PAGANS were incredibly destructive - look what they did to Troy, Carthage, Jerusalem, etc. Pagan modus operendi was all about finding some tribe/town/village that they could loot, enslave the populace and destroy. Ceasar was in Gaul 9 years and during that time he slaughtered 1.2 million and enslaved another 1 million. This was before the days of bombs and guns when you literally had to HACK PEOPLE TO DEATH. `They (Romans) create a wasteland and call it Peace'.

"...Contrary to popular belief, the ancients were not an ignorant and superstitious lot who actually believed their deities to be literal characters. Indeed, this slanderous propaganda has been part of the conspiracy to make the ancients appear as if they were truly the dark and dumb rabble that was in need of the "light of Jesus."73 The reality is that the ancients were no less advanced in their morals and spiritual practices, and in many cases were far more advanced, than the Christians in their own supposed morality and ideology, which, in its very attempt at historicity, is in actuality a degradation of the ancient Mythos. Indeed, unlike the "superior" Christians, the true intelligentsia amongst the ancients were well aware that their gods were astronomical and atmospheric in nature. Socrates, Plato and Aristotle74 surely knew that Zeus, the sky god father figure who migrated to Greece from India and/or Egypt, was never a real person, despite the fact that the Greeks have designated on Crete both a birth cave and a death cave of Zeus. In addition, all over the world are to be found sites where this god or that allegedly was born, walked, suffered, died, etc., a common and unremarkable occurrence that is not monopolized by, and did not originate with, Christianity."

Thus spoke Acharya S/DM Murdock - she knows ALL about it...straight from the teachings of her Masonic/Theosophist trainers of course. IF you take them seriously.

[drakul]

Again with the extreme biases & bigotry. There is much that was stuccoed over or buried by Christians attempting to censor or cover up what they could at many places that ended up preserving them much better for a later date. So, thanks for that. Again, you're skeptical of the virgin birth scene at Luxor but you never question any of the nonsense pumped out by Christianity. No need to admit your biases & bigotry it's as clear as glass in nearly every post by you & drakul.



What makes you think I don't question Christianity? I guess you've never read any of my posts. For starters:

1. Since I was a child I never believed the god of the Old Testament was the same God of Jesus Christ.

2. I do not think the OT should be in the Bible, nor Revelations, nor alot of the other crap written by the apostles, etc. I only read the GOSPELS. What Jesus said and did are the basis for my belief in HIM/Christianity.

3. I worked very intensively for several years with a Sufi Master, who brought me closer to experiencing Higher/God Consciousness than any spiritual teacher I've ever known.

4. I lived and worked in SE Asia and I practice Buddhist meditation.

After all that learning and traveling and spiritual seeking I still love and revere Jesus Christ the most. And I'm far from done yet.

[drakul]

]Drakul feels that Christianity is morally superior to Paganism—which it may very well be—and thus finds it necessary to defend it. But hopefully, no-one here is seriously trying to convert anyone to the Ancient Egyptian cult of Osiris, so such protestations seem entirely beside the point.

Actually that all depends on how you define PAGANISM. Buddhism is not pagan. Sufism is not pagan. Religions which actively practice BLOOD SACRIFICE are pagan. Most of the religions during the days of Jesus, including the Jews were practicing Blood/human sacrifice. That to me is reprehensible. The ancient Egyptians practiced blood sacrifice and Horus worshiip was an inimicable part of that. I have provided several examples on this thread of temple texts and wall carvings showing that Horus committed human sacrifice and even beheaded his mother, Isis. And Murdock says Horus is JESUS???

And you indeed would be wrong. Hieroglyphs continued to be read and written for many centuries after Christ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_hieroglyphs#History_and_evolution

Yes the last active Egyptian temples were not closed until 500s AD. However 98% of people outside the priesthood could not read. It was the SYMBOLS which carried the message for them - such as the WEDJAT- the Eye of Horus.

Much drama in these threads could be foregone by people taking the time to do the most basic of research.

And you have shown us???

[element]

Religions which actively practice BLOOD SACRIFICE are pagan.

Pagan
1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.
adj. 1. Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
2. Professing no religion; heathen.
3. Neo-Pagan.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pagan


Surely not all of them practice human/blood sacrifice? What about today's pagans? :confused:

[drakul]

Pagan
1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.
adj. 1. Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
2. Professing no religion; heathen.
3. Neo-Pagan.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pagan


Surely not all of them practice human/blood sacrifice? What about today's pagans? :confused:

Well that's the free dictionary for yah, but my post referred my own definition of paganism.

Contrary to the Free Dictionary definition - ISLAM is pagan to me, because on Eid al-Adha, Muslims practice blood sacrifice in which they slit the throat of a sheep, camel or a goat. The Koran also teaches that a man should `beat' his wife if she becomes `disagreeable'. That equates to god-condoned terrorism in the bosom of the family.

[element]

Well that's the free dictionary for yah,
You gotta love it.:D

So your point of criticism are the sacrifices, and not the name of 'pagans'?
Because there are pagans who don't sacrifice a human or animal..

If so, then shouldn't we drop the term ''paganism'' because many of todays pagans would be harmed by this comparisment.

[drakul]

You gotta love it.:D

So your point of criticism are the sacrifices, and not the name of 'pagans'?
Because there are pagans who don't sacrifice a human or animal..

If so, then shouldn't we drop the term ''paganism'' because many of todays pagans would be harmed by this comparisment.

What word would you use?
Maybe add a qualifier like ANCIENT Pagans? Since the vast majority did practice blood sacrifice with the exception of the Buddhists.

[thirdwave]

You think wrong. Try doing some research first before regurgitating your prejudices. Do I really want to hear them? I am beginning to take a very dim view of the quality of posts on this board. More a forum for ignoramuses to spout out their prejudices than a forum to discuss topics objectively.

I think you should quote peoples whole posts so people can see how mush poo you are talking.

and the whole point of this thread is about research... it is people like you who has a problem with people digging to deep.

[thirdwave]

What word would you use?

country dweller

[kasalt]

I just found a great website named Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth (http://www.pocm.info/index.html). What it does in brief fashion is it separates the true from the false (the "wheat from the chaff", if you will), regarding the alleged parallels between the Christian religion and pre-existing pagan religions. Here's a quote:Chances are you came to this page pretty quick after you found POCM (http://www.pocm.info/index.html). Most people do. After all, to find out if Jesus really is a copy of other ancient Gods, the thing to do is study the other Gods' myths for virgin births and crucifixions, right?

And the way it works is, Jesus was a xerox God, a copy of Mithras, because Mithras was born of a virgin on December 25th, called The Redeemer, and Mithra's temple in Rome had a sign saying: "And thou hast saved us by shedding the eternal blood." The event's of Jesus' life are so close to the events of Mithras' life, there had to be copying, right?

No. The answer is, "No."

First of all, Mithras wasn't born of a virgin on December 25th, and many other Jesus-and-other-ancient-God life event similarities are also phony. Made up. Not found in the ancient sources. If you've heard them, what you heard was outdated mythicist scholarship from around the late 1800s, or modern amateur enthusiasm, or internet urban legend. My rule of thumb is, if a claim about ancient religions is not supported by ancient evidence, don't believe it.

In all of ancient literature, there is no event-by-event analogue of Jesus. Here's why ...


Source: http://www.pocm.info/pagan_christs_getting_started.html
Have a look around, it's worth checking out.

[vinnyharris]

"First of all, Mithras wasn't born of a virgin on December 25th, and many other Jesus-and-other-ancient-God life event similarities are also phony. Made up. Not found in the ancient sources. If you've heard them, what you heard was outdated mythicist scholarship from around the late 1800s, or modern amateur enthusiasm, or internet urban legend. My rule of thumb is, if a claim about ancient religions is not supported by ancient evidence, don't believe it."

What like Christianity? Right, that POCM website is bogus. It's just Christian apologist rubbish.

Mithra: The Pagan Christ
http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm

[octopusrex]

Just found this :
http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/JesusHorus.html

So now im confused :-S

Zeitgeist told me the similarities were true so.. someones lieing do you know who it is?
I wish i was a fly on the wall 2000 years ago.

Good grief man. Jesus. Horus. Quetzalcoatl. Krsna.

It's all the same stuff. It is also perfectly different. Read yer vedas.

[kasalt]

Right, that POCM website is bogus. It's just Christian apologist rubbish.

Sorry, but you are the one who is being "bogus" at the moment. The website in question is not Christian. For you to make such a statement just proves that you haven't even taken a fair look at it. Want proof? Here's a quote from the very website you say is "Christian apologist rubbish":In many many ways Christianity was not new, not unique. Christian ideas were Pagan ideas. And we're not talking simple, trivial ideas. We're talking ideas deep in the fabric of the bible, in the stories about who Jesus was and what he taught and did. Many biblical ideas are pagan ideas. Christian religion is not different from Pagan religion. Christianity is an ancient Pagan religion.
Source: http://www.pocm.info/pagan_christs_apollonius_of_tyana.html
So before you decide to spout off on something again, I'd suggest you read up on it first so you can actually know what you're talking about.

[1977]

That POCM page seems okay, but a bit incomplete. I mean, this page http://www.pocm.info/pagan_christs_Simon.htm is nothing but the letter "K"!

Mithra was identified with Sol Invictus in the Roman cult, and December 25 was the date of Natalis Invicti (http://books.google.com/books?id=xar95I_wpLMC&pg=PA150&dq=%22Natalis+invicti%22&lr=#PPA150,M1). This seems to have been the reasoning used by Cumont et al. in placing the birth of Mithra on December 25.

This page on Horus and the crucifixion is nicely written and sourced, by the way: http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html :)

[kasalt]

That POCM page seems okay, but a bit incomplete. I mean, this page http://www.pocm.info/pagan_christs_Simon.htm is nothing but the letter "K"!

Yes it's incomplete. The author states on this page (http://www.pocm.info/pagan_christs_mithras.html) that he is in the process of rewriting the website.

[vinnyharris]

Sorry, but you are the one who is being "bogus" at the moment. The website in question is not Christian. For you to make such a statement just proves that you haven't even taken a fair look at it. Want proof? Here's a quote from the very website you say is "Christian apologist rubbish":In many many ways Christianity was not new, not unique. Christian ideas were Pagan ideas. And we're not talking simple, trivial ideas. We're talking ideas deep in the fabric of the bible, in the stories about who Jesus was and what he taught and did. Many biblical ideas are pagan ideas. Christian religion is not different from Pagan religion. Christianity is an ancient Pagan religion.
Source: http://www.pocm.info/pagan_christs_apollonius_of_tyana.html
So before you decide to spout off on something again, I'd suggest you read up on it first so you can actually know what you're talking about.

Er, see, you jumped the gun - I didn't say it was a Christian website - I know exactly what it is and it's not to be trusted. I said this was bogus Christian apologist nonsense:

"First of all, Mithras wasn't born of a virgin on December 25th, and many other Jesus-and-other-ancient-God life event similarities are also phony. Made up. Not found in the ancient sources. If you've heard them, what you heard was outdated mythicist scholarship from around the late 1800s, or modern amateur enthusiasm, or internet urban legend. My rule of thumb is, if a claim about ancient religions is not supported by ancient evidence, don't believe it."

Because it is. Every claim here is laughable from Mithra not being born of a virgin on Dec 25th, being made up, not found in ancient sources, outdated 1800's etc - it's all false. These kats at POCM are just ignorant and they're just repeating the same load of BS that even Christian apologists do.

[kasalt]

Er, see, you jumped the gun - I didn't say it was a Christian website - I know exactly what it is and it's not to be trusted. I said this was bogus Christian apologist nonsense...Because it is. Every claim here is laughable from Mithra not being born of a virgin on Dec 25th, being made up, not found in ancient sources, outdated 1800's etc - it's all false. These kats at POCM are just ignorant and they're just repeating the same load of BS that even Christian apologists do.

Wikipedia:
Some authors have drawn parallels between the circumstances of Mithras' and Jesus' birth: Joseph Campbell described it as a virgin birth, and Martin A. Larson noted that Mithras was said to have been born on December 25, or the winter solstice.

This theory is in contradiction to the traditional understanding of Mithras' birth.

In Mithraic Studies it stated that Mithras was born as an adult from solid rock, "wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix." David Ulansey speculates that this was a belief derived from the Perseus' myths which held he was born from an underground cavern.

[drakul]

Mithra born from a rock -

http://englishatheist.org/mithra/M30.html

[kasalt]

"Mithra saved the world by sacrificing a bull; Christ by sacrificing Himself. It is hardly possible to conceive a more radical difference than that between Mithra taurochtonos and Christ crucified. Christ was born of a Virgin; there is nothing to prove that the same was believed of Mithra born from the rock. Christ was born in a cave; and Mithraists worshipped in a cave, but Mithra was born under a tree near a river. Much as been made of the presence of adoring shepherds; but their existence on sculptures has not been proven, and considering that man had not yet appeared, it is an anachronism to suppose their presence."

Source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm

[drakul]

Another pic of Mithra born from a rock - (this is what is known as evidence from Primary Sources) which Murdock rarely uses.

http://englishatheist.org/mithra/M31.html

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

The Skeptics on this Board have really bought into alot of low grade bullshit.

Here is an 'Apologist' that will eat all you skeptics for lunch.

You Skeptics need to upgrade your arguments.

http://www.tektonics.org/

Hub Page for copycats:

http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html


Time: your Time, my Time, everybodys Time, is a precious commodity.

Once it is gone, it is gone forever, use whatever Time you have remaining Wisely. :)

[vinnyharris]

From the very link you provided on Mithraism:

"The 25 December was observed as his birthday, the natalis invicti, the rebirth of the winter-sun, unconquered by the rigours of the season."

Natalis Invicti:

"The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism..."

Catholic Enc.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

"In The Christ Myth, Evans says:

"early writers, including several of the [Church] Fathers, decided upon a cave as the true place [of Christ's birth], a decision exactly in accordance with the legend of a virgin, in a cave, on the 25th of December, symbolizing the renewed birth of the sun after the winter solstice."

http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra_3.htm

Those comments about Mithra by POCM represent lies & ignorance used first by Christian apologists of the 19th century - it's really embarrassing to see skeptics repeating the same nonsense today. The evidence is available to those who're actually willing to study it.

"tektonics"?

Has JP Holding ever figured out that tekton means Freemason in modern Greek? He's a joke:

JP Holding has no qualifications whatsoever in any Biblical field, knows no Biblical languages, and has no relevant training, yet has the temerity to presume that his OPINION is enough, and that his personal FAITH is all that he needs, to offer a vicious and vitriolic critique of credible credentialed scholars who are trained in this area of expertise. JP Holding has no training in comparative religion. No training in mythology. No training in archaeoastronomy. No training in astrotheology. Nothing relevant.

So, don't take my word for it...see it for yourself.

TEKTONICS.ORG: EXPOSED!
http://the-anointed-one.com/exposed.html

'James Patrick Holding, the Want-to-Be Apologist'
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2002/4/024jph.html

JP Holding Exposed
http://the-anointed-one.com/search2.htm

'Dishonesty by Robert Turkel (J.P. Holding)'
http://www.discord.org/~lippard/turkeldishonesty.html

A Reply to J. P. Holding
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/g_a_wells/holding.html

"Writing James P Holding Off!"
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/06/writing-james-p-holding-off.html

"Prove Jesus Existed, Please!"
http://www.truthbeknown.com/holding.htm

James Patrick Holding: Another Apostate With Selective Education
http://www.darrellwconder.com/debate1.html

Do a google for JP Holding and his alt. "Sheila Rangslinger" -

"DISCLOSURE FROM ADMIN: "Sheila Rangslinger" was discovered to be a sock puppet identity created by J.P. Holding. Any statements about J.P. Holding in this post were written by J.P. Holding himself."

Q. "What are your credentials?"

A. "I have a Masters' Degree in Library Science. What the runs down to is, I'm an expert at looking things up and answering questions"

- JP Holding

JP Holding has never explained how he got that job as prison librarian. WAS HE IN PRISON? IS THAT HOW HE GOT THAT JOB? WHAT WAS HE IN PRISON FOR?

LOL - ROTFLMAO

For your edification enjoy this thread about Holdings new book, "Shattering the Christ Myth"

Shattering Holding's Anti-Mythicist book
http://forums.truthbeknown.com/viewtopic.php?t=2255

[kasalt]

From the very link you provided on Mithraism:

25 December may well have been the celebration date for the birth of Mithra, and of course the Roman Catholic Church arbitrarily decided on 25 December as the celebration date for the birth of Jesus, but what are the other similarities? For example, Mithra was born out of a rock as a full-grown adult, not as an infant out of a virgin.

[drakul]

25 December may well have been the celebration date for the birth of Mithra, and of course the Roman Catholic Church arbitrarily decided on 25 December as the celebration date for the birth of Jesus, but what are the other similarities? For example, Mithra was born out of a rock as a full-grown adult, not as an infant out of a virgin.

Yes well said. Furthermore the Bible doesn't say Jesus was born on Dec. 25. It's important to remember that although the Masonic Theosophists like Murdock, Maxwell etc are mythizing everything - `Oh Mithra wasn't really sacrificing a bull, that's just symbolic'.

Au contraire the Greeks and Romans had been actively committing Tauroctonies as part of their religious ceremonies for thousands of years. The Tauroctony - in which the participants bathed in the blood of the dying bull was the centerpiece of the Mithraic ritual.

Mithra is most often shown with a big knife sacrificing the bull -

http://englishatheist.org/mithra/M05.html

http://englishatheist.org/mithra/M04.html

http://englishatheist.org/mithra/M10.html

If you notice, Mithra is born full grown from the rock with the BLADE OF BLOOD SACRIFICE IN HIS HAND. Here -

http://englishatheist.org/mithra/M30.html

[arty2000]

there is a good book...Suns of God(Acharyas) which goes into great detail of the similarities between Jesus/Horus and so many others and how they are composit figures representing the sun and its movements and relation to the zodiac..particularly the solstices and equinoxes.for instance...Jesus had 12 disciples Horus 12 followers Balder 12 judges..the side wounding represents the annual weakening of the sun...Jesus stabbed in the side Mithra pierced in the side Odin pierced in the side..variations of hanging from a tree or cross..others Hercules and his 12 labors,Samson loses his strength when his hair is cut(loss of the rays of the sun),12 tribes of Isr.,,,the book is an excellent source of info for anyone who wants to have an understanding of where these myths came from.;)

[kasalt]

"Zeitgeist" Online Movie: Part One Refuted

Horus, Attis, Krishna, Dionysus, and Mithra (or
Mithras)—Is the Life of Jesus Christ Plagiarized from
their Myths?

Read about it here:

http://www.preventingtruthdecay.org/copycats.shtml

[1977]

[LEFT]"Zeitgeist" Online Movie: Part One Refuted

http://www.preventingtruthdecay.org/copycats.shtml
While I agree with the need for more critical view of the facts, the treatment here is quite superficial, unfortunately.

Au contraire the Greeks and Romans had been actively committing Tauroctonies as part of their religious ceremonies for thousands of years. The Tauroctony - in which the participants bathed in the blood of the dying bull was the centerpiece of the Mithraic ritual.
The baptism in the blood of the bull is actually from the rites of the Great Mother and not of Mithras. It's an easy mistake to make, what with their both involving bulls so prominently, and I have even made it myself.

Taurobolium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[kasalt]

While I agree with the need for more critical view of the facts, the treatment here is quite superficial, unfortunately.

For me, its strength is in its brevity. In many places it simply responds to Zeitgeist's claims with the following response: "Which pre-New Testament primary source states this?" It's a good question--a question that is all too often not easily answered, if it is answered at all.

Take an author like Acharya S. From what I could tell, her webpage that you linked to earlier seemed pretty well sourced, but there are many places in her books where she makes a claim and her only source for said claim is someone like 18th century author Kersey Graves. So then the question is, what was Kersey Graves' source for the claim? And the answer is: No one knows! Sorry, but that just isn't sufficient.

That is why I am in full agreement with the catch-phrase of the POCM website: "Ancient claims must be confirmed by ancient evidence."

For an explanation of why it is wrong to make ancient claims without citing ancient evidence (among other errors), see Infidels.org's review of Kersey Graves' work:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/graves.html

[thirdwave]

"Zeitgeist" Online Movie: Part One Refuted

Horus, Attis, Krishna, Dionysus, and Mithra (or
Mithras)—Is the Life of Jesus Christ Plagiarized from
their Myths?

Read about it here:

http://www.preventingtruthdecay.org/copycats.shtml

You and the person making this so called Refute vid seem to be deliberately over looking the point of what is being said by these people... and I disagree with some that say the Facts need to be more critical, its more a case of one has to go and look for the facts... one should always go and research stuff them selves anyway, and the Z movie is 100% truth, once you know where it is coming from and understand the meaning behind these depictions in religion. I cant see a fully programmed religious person ever getting it because the first hurdle is seeing the symbols in the Jesus story and understanding that the bible is not a description of one mans life who was God.

Because you are dogmaticly stuck in the story of Jesus and treat every account as littoral events and so forth... you seem to find it impossible to understand what films like Z are pointing out... and these videos you send can make you cringe because of the complete ignorance behind them.

once you can see that the bible is not factual and littoral information and is in fact symbolic, then the parallels between Horus and Jesus are huge.

[drakul]

The baptism in the blood of the bull is actually from the rites of the Great Mother and not of Mithras. It's an easy mistake to make, what with their both involving bulls so prominently, and I have even made it myself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurobolium

If you read what I wrote - `the Greeks and Romans had been practicing Tauroctonies for thousands of years'. The Classical Greeks did not worship Mithra but they ceertainly performed Tauroctonies in a big way. Read Herodotus.

Mithra was a relatively new god. Mithraism appeared on the Roman religious scene about the same time as Christianity. However as I said the practice of sacrificing bulls and bathing in the blood had been going on long long before then. Tauroctonies dedicated to Zeus, Apollo, Osiris, you name the god, were heavily practiced throughout the Mediterranean Basin and far beyond it. But neither bulls nor any other animals or humans were sacrificed for Jesus and therein lies the vast difference.

[eternal_spirit]

Much excitement has been generated by the arrival of a "Red Heifer"1 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) in Israel. The birth of a red heifer (cow) on a farm in the religious youth village of Kfar Hasidim (near Haifa) has excited sectors in the Israeli religious community.
A delegation of numerous experts have visited the farm and have concluded that it is, in fact, an acceptable red heifer according to Torah requirements.
However, the cow must be at least two years old before it can be used. Until then, the cow will be carefully watched to ensure that nothing occurs to invalidate its status.
Why All the Excitement?
A red heifer was to be the means for the congregation of Israel to purify themselves, as specified in Numbers 19. It is this Torah connection which drives some of the religious Jews of today to prepare for the coming priesthood and temple services.
The red heifer must meet certain physical criteria and must be sacrificed in a certain way. Once sacrificed, the ashes are to be mixed with "clean" water and it is this mixture which is sprinkled over the "unclean."
According to the Torah, the red heifer must be without blemish, must be without defect, and must never have worn a yoke.2 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes)
The sacrifice3 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) must be performed outside the camp; the blood must be sprinkled seven times in front of the tabernacle; the entire heifer must be burned before the priest; cedar wood, hyssop and scarlet are added to the fire. While the primary purpose was for ritual cleansing, some believe it may have had medical implications as well.
The cedar oil came from a kind of juniper tree that grew in both Israel and in the Sinai. This cedar oil would irritate the skin, encouraging the person to vigorously rub the solution into their hands.
The hyssop oil is actually a very effective antiseptic and antibacterial agent. Hyssop oil contains 50 percent carvacrol, which is an antifungal and antibacterial agent still used in medicine today.4 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes)
The Water of Purification5 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) is then prepared by a priest, who is clean, who gathers the ashes, adds water to the ashes6 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) and then stores it outside the camp in a clean place.
Prophetic Significance
The Talmud claims that the red heifer sacrifice was the only one of God's commands that King Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, claimed he did not understand.
The red heifer, as well as all the other specifications in the Torah, was an allusion which ultimately pointed to Jesus Christ, as Paul points out in Hebrews 9:13, 14:
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Solomon apparently did not understand why Numbers 19 declared that the priest would be "unclean until evening." This unusual sacrifice symbolically pointed to Jesus Christ and His sacrifice because our Lord, who was perfectly sinless, judicially took upon Himself the sins of the world so that we who are sinful could become righteous before God.
Just as the red heifer was sacrificed "outside the camp," in contrast to all other sacrifices that took place in the Tabernacle or Temple, Jesus was sacrificed outside the city of Jerusalem, on the very spot, we believe, on which Abraham offered Isaac two thousand years earlier.7 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes)
(Also, it was the Water of Purification, resulting from the ashes of the red heifer and reserved for ritual cleansing, that was the water used by Jesus when He turned the water into wine at the wedding at Cana.8 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) One cannot fully appreciate the significance of this event unless one understands the background of Numbers 19, et al. He was, to His disciples only, declaring Himself the Lord of the Torah.)
The Coming Temple
It is this water, the Water of Purification, which is required by the Israelites today. It is needed to "purify" today's Levitical priesthood and to "purify" the temple mount in preparation for the building of the Third Temple.
We know that this temple will be built because Jesus, John, and Paul all make reference to it.9 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes)
Since Herod's Temple was destroyed by the Roman emperor Titus in 70 A.D., no flawless red heifer has been born within the Biblical land of Israel, according to Rabbinical sources. Since there has been no temple, nor sacrifices, since the destruction of the Temple by the Romans, the availability of the necessary purification agents would seem to pose a problem.
Furthermore, the Jewish people did not see the recreation of the State of Israel until 1948, nor the recapturing of Jerusalem until 1967.
There are, however, some well placed and respected experts who believe they know where the ashes of the last red heifer are presently hidden.
However, to discuss this further would put some people at risk. If this turns out to be in error, then perhaps the presently available candidate may prove very significant after all. Being only about 9 months old, it will not be eligible until its third year: 1999 or so.
The only real obstacle to the rebuilding is not the missing ashes, but political access to the Temple Mount. Everyone has their own conjectures as to how this will ultimately happen, but we'll just have to wait and see.
Just as Zechariah predicted,10 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) Jerusalem is indeed becoming "a cup of trembling" and a "burdensome stone" to all the nations of the earth. The rebuilding of the Temple will be another intensifying aspect in the present Middle East imbroglio.
We understand that the Vatican has offered to "internationalize" the Temple Mount: let the Muslims use it on Friday (their holy day); the Jews use it on Saturday (Shabbat), and the Christians on Sunday. This appears consistent with their ambition and agenda to lead the worldwide "ecumenical" movement.
If the southern conjecture (supported by some current researchers-see sketch on page 12 by Tuvia Sagiv) proves to be the correct location of the Temple, it seems it could be built without disturbing the present structures!
Southward, the bedrock drops enough to permit a sanctuary to be built below the present structures, disturbing neither the Dome of the Rock nor the Al Aksa Mosque.11 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes)
This is only a provocative proposal and there is no clear reason to view it as acceptable to the religious Jews. Any proposal at all will, of course, be unacceptable to Islam.
However, the Coming World Leader, who ultimately is destined to desecrate this Temple himself, is first going to prove attractive to both the Jews and the Muslims,12 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) while posing as a replacement for Christ.13 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) (Somehow his acceptability apparently may exploit Islamic eschatology as well!)
The very emergence of these topics into the mainstream news media is provocative. The rebuilding of the Temple would, of course, be an exciting milestone on the forthcoming prophetic scenario. We will just have to watch and see. Jesus said,
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Luke 21:28)
Exciting times, indeed. Are you really ready?



http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/

[kasalt]

I disagree with some that say the Facts need to be more critical... the Z movie is 100% truth.

You are sounding rather like a Zeitgeist fundamentalist--a true believer in the religion of Zeitgeist, Part 1. Disagreement is blasphemy. Factual errors are not errors but facts.

Don't get me wrong. I actually believe that Acharya S' efforts can be of great service to humanity--if only she gets it right. Any criticisms from me are offered in a good faith effort to point her and everyone else in the right direction on specifics. Furthermore, I honestly believe that I am being of more service to Acharya S and the makers of Zeitgeist by pointing out their errors than anyone else is by trying to deny the existence of these errors.

One of Acharya's main reference sources is The World's 16 Crucified Saviors, by Kersey Graves. I'm sure that by now you've had a chance to read the review of this book at Infidels.org:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/graves.html

And Wikipedia's entry makes the following revealing observation:[A]ll sources Graves used were Freethought texts, which in turn had synthesised random, mis-understood and half-digested pieces of mis-information. Graves constructed from this a theory that religion was concocted by priests and made up of superstition and myth. This belief was consistent with the movement in Royal Arch Freemasonry then to revive Gnosticism as a challenge to church teaching.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kersey_Graves#Criticism

Again, this is one of Acharya S' primary sources, and the problems with that are massive, as you can see from Infidels.org and Wikipedia.

you are dogmaticly stuck in the story of Jesus and treat every account as littoral events and so forth...

Infidels.org and Wikipedia are hardly biblical fundamentalist sources.

[drakul]

Much excitement has been generated by the arrival of a "Red Heifer"1 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) in Israel. The birth of a red heifer (cow) on a farm in the religious youth village of Kfar Hasidim (near Haifa) has excited sectors in the Israeli religious community.
A delegation of numerous experts have visited the farm and have concluded that it is, in fact, an acceptable red heifer according to Torah requirements.
However, the cow must be at least two years old before it can be used. Until then, the cow will be carefully watched to ensure that nothing occurs to invalidate its status.
Why All the Excitement?
A red heifer was to be the means for the congregation of Israel to purify themselves, as specified in Numbers 19. It is this Torah connection which drives some of the religious Jews of today to prepare for the coming priesthood and temple services.
The red heifer must meet certain physical criteria and must be sacrificed in a certain way. Once sacrificed, the ashes are to be mixed with "clean" water and it is this mixture which is sprinkled over the "unclean."
According to the Torah, the red heifer must be without blemish, must be without defect, and must never have worn a yoke.2 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes)
The sacrifice3 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) must be performed outside the camp; the blood must be sprinkled seven times in front of the tabernacle; the entire heifer must be burned before the priest; cedar wood, hyssop and scarlet are added to the fire. While the primary purpose was for ritual cleansing, some believe it may have had medical implications as well.
The cedar oil came from a kind of juniper tree that grew in both Israel and in the Sinai. This cedar oil would irritate the skin, encouraging the person to vigorously rub the solution into their hands.
The hyssop oil is actually a very effective antiseptic and antibacterial agent. Hyssop oil contains 50 percent carvacrol, which is an antifungal and antibacterial agent still used in medicine today.4 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes)
The Water of Purification5 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) is then prepared by a priest, who is clean, who gathers the ashes, adds water to the ashes6 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) and then stores it outside the camp in a clean place.
Prophetic Significance
The Talmud claims that the red heifer sacrifice was the only one of God's commands that King Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, claimed he did not understand.
The red heifer, as well as all the other specifications in the Torah, was an allusion which ultimately pointed to Jesus Christ, as Paul points out in Hebrews 9:13, 14:
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Solomon apparently did not understand why Numbers 19 declared that the priest would be "unclean until evening." This unusual sacrifice symbolically pointed to Jesus Christ and His sacrifice because our Lord, who was perfectly sinless, judicially took upon Himself the sins of the world so that we who are sinful could become righteous before God.
Just as the red heifer was sacrificed "outside the camp," in contrast to all other sacrifices that took place in the Tabernacle or Temple, Jesus was sacrificed outside the city of Jerusalem, on the very spot, we believe, on which Abraham offered Isaac two thousand years earlier.7 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes)
(Also, it was the Water of Purification, resulting from the ashes of the red heifer and reserved for ritual cleansing, that was the water used by Jesus when He turned the water into wine at the wedding at Cana.8 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) One cannot fully appreciate the significance of this event unless one understands the background of Numbers 19, et al. He was, to His disciples only, declaring Himself the Lord of the Torah.)
The Coming Temple
It is this water, the Water of Purification, which is required by the Israelites today. It is needed to "purify" today's Levitical priesthood and to "purify" the temple mount in preparation for the building of the Third Temple.
We know that this temple will be built because Jesus, John, and Paul all make reference to it.9 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes)
Since Herod's Temple was destroyed by the Roman emperor Titus in 70 A.D., no flawless red heifer has been born within the Biblical land of Israel, according to Rabbinical sources. Since there has been no temple, nor sacrifices, since the destruction of the Temple by the Romans, the availability of the necessary purification agents would seem to pose a problem.
Furthermore, the Jewish people did not see the recreation of the State of Israel until 1948, nor the recapturing of Jerusalem until 1967.
There are, however, some well placed and respected experts who believe they know where the ashes of the last red heifer are presently hidden.
However, to discuss this further would put some people at risk. If this turns out to be in error, then perhaps the presently available candidate may prove very significant after all. Being only about 9 months old, it will not be eligible until its third year: 1999 or so.
The only real obstacle to the rebuilding is not the missing ashes, but political access to the Temple Mount. Everyone has their own conjectures as to how this will ultimately happen, but we'll just have to wait and see.
Just as Zechariah predicted,10 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) Jerusalem is indeed becoming "a cup of trembling" and a "burdensome stone" to all the nations of the earth. The rebuilding of the Temple will be another intensifying aspect in the present Middle East imbroglio.
We understand that the Vatican has offered to "internationalize" the Temple Mount: let the Muslims use it on Friday (their holy day); the Jews use it on Saturday (Shabbat), and the Christians on Sunday. This appears consistent with their ambition and agenda to lead the worldwide "ecumenical" movement.
If the southern conjecture (supported by some current researchers-see sketch on page 12 by Tuvia Sagiv) proves to be the correct location of the Temple, it seems it could be built without disturbing the present structures!
Southward, the bedrock drops enough to permit a sanctuary to be built below the present structures, disturbing neither the Dome of the Rock nor the Al Aksa Mosque.11 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes)
This is only a provocative proposal and there is no clear reason to view it as acceptable to the religious Jews. Any proposal at all will, of course, be unacceptable to Islam.
However, the Coming World Leader, who ultimately is destined to desecrate this Temple himself, is first going to prove attractive to both the Jews and the Muslims,12 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) while posing as a replacement for Christ.13 (http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/#notes) (Somehow his acceptability apparently may exploit Islamic eschatology as well!)
The very emergence of these topics into the mainstream news media is provocative. The rebuilding of the Temple would, of course, be an exciting milestone on the forthcoming prophetic scenario. We will just have to watch and see. Jesus said,
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. (Luke 21:28)
Exciting times, indeed. Are you really ready?

http://www.khouse.org/articles/1997/15/

I always wondered why the Jews stopped sacrificing animals, since the Old Testament is basically a litany of slaughter. It was only recently that I found out that the Jews and all the other pagans were banned from committing their beloved blood sacrifices when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire in 325AD. The gladiatorial games were also banned by the Christians. Isn't it strange that we were never taught this extremely important contribution of Christianity to humankind in all the `Western Civilization'/history classes in school/university???

And look - Jehovah hasn't changed at all - still wants his blood sacrifice. the `red heifer' is only the beginning...

[drakul]

ksalt - [A]ll sources Graves used were Freethought texts, which in turn had synthesised random, mis-understood and half-digested pieces of mis-information. Graves constructed from this a theory that religion was concocted by priests and made up of superstition and myth. This belief was consistent with the movement in Royal Arch Freemasonry then to revive Gnosticism as a challenge to church teaching.

Exactly. Acharya/DM Murdock liberally quotes in her books such as Christ Conspiracy from some of the highest ranking 19th century Freemasons such as the infamous 33rd degree - Albert Pike to prove her points that Jesus was just an `astrotheological myth'. As if Albert Pike, a civil war general was any kind of qualified archeologist, or Egyptologist. Instead Pike wrote the BIBLE of Freemasonry - Morals and Dogma - in which Pike states that Freemasons worship `LUCIFER THE MORNING STAR'. Hence the Masonic push to reduce Jesus to astrological symbolism by making what they refer to as `all the worlds mythical saviors' into mere astrological signs and stars. The Masons and their minions refer to this as `the science of astrotheology' - hence `Jesus becomes Lucifer, the morning star'. And I've seen this very statement `Jesus is Lucifer' made many times, especially on this board.

[kasalt]

I always wondered why the Jews stopped sacrificing animals, since the Old Testament is basically a litany of slaughter. It was only recently that I found out that the Jews and all the other pagans were banned from committing beloved blood sacrifices when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire in 325AD.

Actually, animal sacrifice ceased with the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD by the Romans:

http://judaism.about.com/od/abcsofjudaism/f/sacrifices_stop.htm

And look - Jehovah hasn't changed at all - still wants his blood sacrifice. the `red heifer' is only the beginning...

Yes, plans are underway for the building of a new Temple, and there is excitement about the reappearance of the red heifer.

Interesting point about the red heifer though...I've heard that Israeli scientists are working on bringing them back through genetic engineering. If this is true then the reappearance of the red heifer isn't the result of some miraculous or even natural process, just manipulation...

[vinnyharris]

kasalt "the Roman Catholic Church arbitrarily decided on 25 December as the celebration date for the birth of Jesus..."

It wasn't 'arbitrary' at all. For example, several early Christian writers connected the rebirth of the sun to the birth of Jesus:

"O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born ... Christ should be born"

-- Cyprian

Billions of Christians have celebrated the birth of Jesus on that date even to this very day. Thus, the nativity scene of Jesus at xmas time. Which is quite similar to the nativity scene of Horus much earlier:

The Nativity Scene at Luxor
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/luxor.html

kasalt "Mithra was born out of a rock as a full-grown adult, not as an infant out of a virgin."

Often these arguments are used as straw man fallacies. Mithra wasn't the only other god around to borrow concepts from - Jesus is a collage of many gods mixed in with Jewish concepts, not just Mithra. Find for me a popular god that wasn't born of a virgin, if you can - good luck with that.

"Mithra's genesis out of a rock, analogous to the birth in caves of a number of gods, including Jesus, was followed by his adoration by shepherds, another motif that found its way into the later Christianity. In The Christ Myth, Evans says:

early writers, including several of the [Church] Fathers, decided upon a cave as the true place [of Christ's birth], a decision exactly in accordance with the legend of a virgin, in a cave, on the 25th of December, symbolizing the renewed birth of the sun after the winter solstice.

Regarding the birth in caves likewise common to pre-Christian gods, and present in the early legends of Jesus, Weigall relates:

the cave shown at Bethlehem as the birthplace of Jesus was actually a rock shrine in which the god Tammuz or Adonis was worshipped, as the early Christian father Jerome tells us; and its adoption as the scene of the birth of our Lord was one of those frequent instances of the taking over by Christians of a pagan sacred site. The propriety of this appropriation was increased by the fact that the worship of a god in a cave was commonplace in paganism: Apollo, Cybele, Demeter, Herakles, Hermes, Mithra and Poseidon were all adored in caves; Hermes, the Greek Logos, being actually born of Maia in a cave, and Mithra being "rock-born."

Weigall further states that the "swaddling clothes" motif in the gospel story is taken from the story of Hermes, who was likewise wrapped and placed in a "manger," which in the original Greek referred to a basket. Furthermore, Dionysus and Ion, the father of the Ionians, were each born in a cave and placed in a basket/manger."

http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra_3.htm

[vinnyharris]

drakul "It's important to remember that although the Masonic Theosophists like Murdock, Maxwell etc are mythizing everything - `Oh Mithra wasn't really sacrificing a bull, that's just symbolic'."

LMAO! Don't you ever get tired of being called out for lies drakul? You're bent on repeating them no matter how many times its been demonstrated to you that you're making stuff up always trying to smear, libel or lie about Murdock in any way to can in order to shore up your faith at all costs. Murdock is not a "Masonic Theosophist" and you know it so, stop lying. And who said there was never bull sacrificing? There was but it certainly wasn't literally done by Mithra because Mithra never existed - same as Jesus, they're mythical characters.

"To demonstrate the utter lack of quality in the assaults on my credibility and character that somehow "prove" the existence of Jesus Christ, I have been labeled not only a "liar," "fraud" and "poor scholar," but also a "Freemason," an "Illuminati," a "CIA agent," a "Mossad agent" and a "Zionist" - utterly ridiculous notions so undeserving of dignifying that I have hitherto not addressed them. Nor am I a member of any Theosophical Society or any organization having to do with Luciferians, etc., ad absurdum - other silliness slung my way. These claims are entirely laughable, needless to say. Not to mention that these folks are BEARING FALSE WITNESS AGAINST ME, which breaks one of the 10 Commandments!

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." (Exodus 20:16; Matthew 19:18)

Rather than providing credible, scientifically valid evidence and proof for their assertions, detractors thus continually engage in an endless stream of ad homs and other fallacies to distract away from the issues raised in "ZEITGEIST, Part 1."....

- D.M. Murdock/Acharya S

http://tbknews.blogspot.com/2008/04/zeitgeist-refuted-not.html

:D

drakul "Mithra was a relatively new god. Mithraism appeared on the Roman religious scene about the same time as Christianity."

Mithra had been around already for 2,000 years in Persia - certainly wasn't a new god.

[vinnyharris]

"preventingtruthdecay..."Zeitgeist" Online Movie: Part One Refuted" ???

All ZG refuted did was demonstrate that it was made by apologists out to shore up their faith at all costs regardless of the facts. http://forums.truthbeknown.com/viewtopic.php?t=1149&start=0

All that preventingtruthdecay website is doing is essentially copying/pasting what he found at tekton. The guy running that website is or was in some sort of seminary training - he's only interested in shoring up the faith at all costs - not interested in any "truth" and certainly not interested in an objective investigation. He refuses to even post links to the people he attacks, like Acharya's websites - notice how rather than link to her he actually just links to tektonics. He removes the option for people to actually study her work for themselves presenting only links that smear, libel & talk about her & her work in derogatory manor so as to keep people from reading her work.

Anyone who posts tekton as any sort of authority should be forever humiliated for it. JP Holding has no relevant credentials - all he does is maliciously attack others because Christians can't provide valid evidence for Jesus. So they have to smear, libel & attack others for not believing their nonsense.

Shattering Holding's Anti-Mythicist book
http://forums.truthbeknown.com/viewtopic.php?t=2255

[arty2000]

LMAO! Don't you ever get tired of being called out for lies drakul? You're bent on repeating them no matter how many times its been demonstrated to you that you're making stuff up always trying to smear, libel or lie about Murdock in any way to can in order to shore up your faith at all costs. Murdock is not a "Masonic Theosophist" and you know it so, stop lying. And who said there was never bull sacrificing? There was but it certainly wasn't literally done by Mithra because Mithra never existed - same as Jesus, they're mythical characters.



:D



Mithra had been around already for 2,000 years in Persia - certainly wasn't a new god.

right... Mithra preceded Jesus as did Zoroastrianism;)

[vinnyharris]

kasalt "One of Acharya's main reference sources is The World's 16 Crucified Saviors, by Kersey Graves"

That's actually a lie that keeps getting passed around by folks who've never actually studied Acharya's work &/or others who are just out to smear her regardless. Kersey Graves is only cited 7 times in 'Christ Conspiracy' (out of nearly 1,200 footnote citations) and she doesn't rely on him - she brings him up as a starting point for her investigation asking why is he saying what he is. Calling him "one of Acharya S' primary sources" is just dumb. Never do that again.

Now this comes from the very top of the very link you provided:

"[Editor's note: This is a conflation of three responses which were made by Richard Carrier to feedback and e-mail involving questions about the scholarhip of Kersey Graves, in particular, and about scholarship, in general, in the subject area about which Graves concerned himself in The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors.]"

So, Richard Carrier doesn't say he studied Kersey Graves, nor does he say he ever read Acharya's work - he hasn't. It comes from 3 e-mail exchanges - why do people who always use this to attack Acharya (or Graves) conveniently always forget to mention these little factoids?

Acharya is the ONLY ONE to my knowledge who has actually investigated where Kersey Graves was getting his information.

Beddru is Beddou is Buddha
http://www.truthbeknown.com/beddru.html

[1977]

If you read what I wrote - `the Greeks and Romans had been practicing Tauroctonies for thousands of years'. The Classical Greeks did not worship Mithra but they ceertainly performed Tauroctonies in a big way. Read Herodotus.
Okay. But this is what you wrote: "The Tauroctony - in which the participants bathed in the blood of the dying bull was the centerpiece of the Mithraic ritual." We are all allowed to admit we are wrong sometimes. It's not the end of the world.

[1977]

For me, its strength is in its brevity. In many places it simply responds to Zeitgeist's claims with the following response: "Which pre-New Testament primary source states this?" It's a good question--a question that is all too often not easily answered, if it is answered at all.
But that's not a real answer at all. It's just a question to cover the author's own lack of knowledge on the subject.

Take an author like Acharya S. From what I could tell, her webpage that you linked to earlier seemed pretty well sourced, but there are many places in her books where she makes a claim and her only source for said claim is someone like 18th century author Kersey Graves. So then the question is, what was Kersey Graves' source for the claim? And the answer is: No one knows! Sorry, but that just isn't sufficient.
Here's a fun quote about Graves from that evil Theosophist :rolleyes: Blavatsky (http://sacred-texts.com/the/iu/iu106.htm):

In a recent work, called the "World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors" (by Mr. Kersey Graves) which attracted our notice by its title, we were indeed startled as we were forewarned on the title-page we should be by historical evidences to be found neither in history nor tradition. Apollonius, who is represented in it as one of these sixteen "saviours," is shown by the author as finally "crucified . . . having risen from the dead . . . appearing to his disciples after his resurrection, and"--like Christ again--"convincing a Tommy (?) Didymus" by getting him to feel the print of the nails on his hands and feet (see note, p. 268). To begin with, neither Philostratus, the biographer of Apollonius, nor history says any such thing. Though the precise time of his death is unknown, no disciple of Apollonius ever said that he was either crucified, or appeared to them. So much for one "Saviour." After that we are told that Gautama-Buddha, whose life and death have been so minutely described by several authorities, Barthelemy St. Hilaire included--was also "crucified by his enemies near the foot of the p. 342 Nepal mountains" (see p. 107); while the Buddhist books, history, and scientific research tell us, through the lips of Max Muller and a host of Orientalists, that "Gautama-Buddha, (Sakya-muni) died near the Ganges. . . . He had nearly reached the city of Kusinagara, when his vital strength began to fail. He halted in a forest, and while sitting under a sal tree he gave up the ghost" (Max Muller: "Chips from a German Workshop," vol. i., p. 213). The references of Mr. Graves to Higgins and Sir W. Jones, in some of his hazardous speculations, prove nothing. Max Muller shows some antiquated authorities writing elaborate books " . . . in order to prove that Buddha had been in reality the Thoth of the Egyptians; that he was Mercury, or Wodan, or Zoroaster, or Pythagoras. . . . Even Sir W. Jones . . . identified Buddha first with Odin and afterwards with Shishak." We are in the nineteenth century, not in the eighteenth; and though to write books on the authority of the earliest Orientalists may in one sense be viewed as a mark of respect for old age, it is not always safe to try the experiment in our times. Hence this highly instructive volume lacks one important feature which would have made it still more interesting. The author should have added after Prometheus the "Roman," and Alcides the Egyptian god (p. 266) a seventeenth "crucified Saviour" to the list, "Venus, god of the war," introduced to an admiring world by Mr. Artemus Ward the "showman"!

However, the facts about Dionysus on that preventingtruthdecay page are simply wrong. It asks, "How closely do these stories resemble the accounts of Jesus’ virgin birth? Not much at all." Well, I would beg to disagree. There is, of course, the infamous passage of Justin (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm):

For when they tell that Bacchus, son of Jupiter, was begotten by [Jupiter's] intercourse with Semele, and that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that [the devil] has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses?

From the Journal of Hellenic Studies (http://books.google.com/books?dq=zagreus&lr=&pg=PA346&id=ez8aAAAAYAAJ&as_brr=1):

In the cosmogony of the Orphic teaching, there are the two great cosmic elements, Zeus, the omnipotent all in all, and his daughter Kore, who combines in her personality the characteristic features of Persephone, Artemis, and Hekate; from the union of Zeus in serpent form with Kore, Zagreus is born, and to him ... the kingdom is given of this world. Zagreus is the allegory of the life and death and resurrection of Nature; in the generally accepted version, he is brought up as the Zeus child, and from fear of Hera is sent on earth to be warded by the Kouretes. Hera sends the Titans, who surprise Zagreus at play, tear him in pieces, and eat him, all except the heart. Zeus destroys the Titans with his thunderbolts, and out of their ashes the human race is born. Since the Titans had swallowed Zagreus, a spark of the divine element for ever permeates the human system. The heart is carried by Athene to Zeus, who either gives it to Semele in a potion or swallows it himself, and thus is born another Zagreus, the " younger Dionysos".... It is evident that Zagreus is simply another form of Dionysos ... (Etym. Mag., p. 213), representing him in the phase preceding his death and resurrection.4

In this narrative, we are struck by the startling parallel which is presented to the main features of the Christian Theogony. We have an omnipotent God the Father, who with his Son, begotten of a virgin (Kore), is one person and all in all; (the serpent, as in Paradise, playing a part in the beginning of things); the son is sent on earth where he has to suffer and to die for the salvation of the human race, and in order to be born again. No wonder that the early Christian Fathers found occasion to be shocked at some of the elements in the story!

The author finds these parallels so striking that he asserts that they must have been copied from the Christians! But this in no ways can be true, for the mystical birth of Dionysus, or "the Æon," was celebrated in the Mysteries for perhaps over a thousand years: http://www.gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/jesus_live_100/ch19.html

"[A]t Alexandria, in the Koreion as it is called--an immense temple--that is to say, the Precinct of the Virgin; after they have kept all-night vigil with songs and music, chanting to their idol, when the vigil is over, at cockcrow, they descend with lights into an underground crypt, and carry up a wooden image lying naked on a litter, with the seal of a cross made in gold on its forehead.... And if they are asked the meaning of this mystery, they answer and say: 'To-day at this hour the Maiden (Kore), that is, the Virgin, gave birth to the aeon.'

"In the city of Petra also--the metropolis of Arabia which is called Edom in the Scriptures--the same is done, and they sing the praises of the Virgin in the Arab tongue, calling her in Arabic Chaamou, that is, Maiden (Kore), and the Virgin, and him who is born from her Dusares, that is, Alone-begotten (monogenes) of the Lord. This also takes place in the city of Elousa [? Eleusis] on the same night just as at Petra and at Alexandria."

Idiot J.P. Holding dismisses this by saying "comes from a later church source, St. Epiphanius, which makes it of no relevance for copycatting claims." But this is not a refutation at all; it is simply plausible deniability.

[kasalt]

But that's not a real answer at all. It's just a question to cover the author's own lack of knowledge on the subject.

I see it as a question that points to the lack of knowledge on the part of the ones making the baseless assertions. It's a question they can't seem to answer.

Here's a fun quote about Graves from that evil Theosophist :rolleyes: Blavatsky (http://sacred-texts.com/the/iu/iu106.htm#fn_704)

That was indeed a fun quote, thanks for posting it. I hadn't read it before.

However, the facts about Dionysus on that preventingtruthdecay page are simply wrong. It asks, "How closely do these stories resemble the accounts of Jesus’ virgin birth? Not much at all." Well, I would beg to disagree. There is, of course, the infamous passage of Justin (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm):For when they tell that Bacchus, son of Jupiter, was begotten by [Jupiter's] intercourse with Semele, and that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that [the devil] has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses?I'm not sure how "infamous" Justin's quote really is. Here is a great analysis of the quote from another site to explain what I mean:Notice that Justin says that the devil has "imitated the prophecy". We will look at the actual prophecy in the next section, but for now we can see that Justin doesn't really have the devil looking into the future to copy Christ at all. According to Justin, Greek myths were inspired by the devil from the prophecies of the Hebrew prophets. Justin was playing up two themes here: (1) the Hebrews actually had beliefs that were older than the Romans (via Greek poets); and (2) the devil inspired some of the Greek myths. At the top of this article I mentioned how the Romans would have been impressed by the antiquity of Hebrew writings - Justin was trying to play on that in order to emphasis Christianity's own 'antiquity'...

Justin Martyr is [not] trying to explain away parallels between Christ and the pagan gods. Justin Martyr is doing the opposite: he is trying to convince the pagans that the parallels existed in the first place. The parallels were so weak that the pagans didn't recognise them. That's why Justin had to plead that "we propound nothing new or different" to the pagans (see 2.4 below)... strange words if he was trying to de-emphasize the parallels.

So, Justin had to explain away why the pagans didn't see the parallels. His answer: the devil was using prophecies from the Old Testament, but he got them wrong. As Justin writes: And these things were said both among the Greeks and among all nations where they [the demons] heard the prophets foretelling that Christ would specially be believed in; but that in hearing what was said by the prophets they did not accurately understand it, but imitated what was said of our Christ, like men who are in error, we will make plain. [First Apology]
So, Justin was NOT trying to explain away the parallels at all. At a time when Christianity was regarded as a barbarous new religion, Justin was trying to convince the pagans that parallels existed, and that pagan myths were misunderstood copies of stories in Hebrew writings.
Source: http://members.optusnet.com.au/gakuseidon/God_Who_Wasnt_There_analysis_Part2.htm#2.3

From the Journal of Hellenic Studies (http://books.google.com/books?dq=zagreus&lr=&pg=PA346&id=ez8aAAAAYAAJ&as_brr=1):In the cosmogony of the Orphic teaching, there are the two great cosmic elements, Zeus, the omnipotent all in all, and his daughter Kore, who combines in her personality the characteristic features of Persephone, Artemis, and Hekate; from the union of Zeus in serpent form with Kore, Zagreus is born, and to him ... the kingdom is given of this world. Zagreus is the allegory of the life and death and resurrection of Nature; in the generally accepted version, he is brought up as the Zeus child, and from fear of Hera is sent on earth to be warded by the Kouretes. Hera sends the Titans, who surprise Zagreus at play, tear him in pieces, and eat him, all except the heart. Zeus destroys the Titans with his thunderbolts, and out of their ashes the human race is born. Since the Titans had swallowed Zagreus, a spark of the divine element for ever permeates the human system. The heart is carried by Athene to Zeus, who either gives it to Semele in a potion or swallows it himself, and thus is born another Zagreus, the " younger Dionysos".... It is evident that Zagreus is simply another form of Dionysos ... (Etym. Mag., p. 213), representing him in the phase preceding his death and resurrection.4

In this narrative, we are struck by the startling parallel which is presented to the main features of the Christian Theogony. We have an omnipotent God the Father, who with his Son, begotten of a virgin (Kore), is one person and all in all; (the serpent, as in Paradise, playing a part in the beginning of things); the son is sent on earth where he has to suffer and to die for the salvation of the human race, and in order to be born again. No wonder that the early Christian Fathers found occasion to be shocked at some of the elements in the story! The author finds these parallels so striking that he asserts that they must have been copied from the Christians! But this in no ways can be true, for the mystical birth of Dionysus, or "the Æon," was celebrated in the Mysteries for perhaps over a thousand years: http://www.gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/jesus_live_100/ch19.html"[A]t Alexandria, in the Koreion as it is called--an immense temple--that is to say, the Precinct of the Virgin; after they have kept all-night vigil with songs and music, chanting to their idol, when the vigil is over, at cockcrow, they descend with lights into an underground crypt, and carry up a wooden image lying naked on a litter, with the seal of a cross made in gold on its forehead.... And if they are asked the meaning of this mystery, they answer and say: 'To-day at this hour the Maiden (Kore), that is, the Virgin, gave birth to the aeon.'

"In the city of Petra also--the metropolis of Arabia which is called Edom in the Scriptures--the same is done, and they sing the praises of the Virgin in the Arab tongue, calling her in Arabic Chaamou, that is, Maiden (Kore), and the Virgin, and him who is born from her Dusares, that is, Alone-begotten (monogenes) of the Lord. This also takes place in the city of Elousa [? Eleusis] on the same night just as at Petra and at Alexandria."
Idiot J.P. Holding dismisses this by saying "comes from a later church source, St. Epiphanius, which makes it of no relevance for copycatting claims." But this is not a refutation at all; it is simply plausible deniability.

Now that's good stuff. It's better than anything found in Zeitgeist Part 1, that's for sure.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

[QUOTE=vinnyharris;1040690]From the very link you provided on Mithraism: QUOTE]

vinny: Attention to Details are very important to present accurate information.

I did not provide a Link to Mithras, rather I provided a Link to a Hub Page which links to dozens of copycat jesus'

http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html

Here is the Osirus/Horus Link.

http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html

Face it vinny; Di Di is a 3rd Rate Hack. LOL

[1977]

I'm not sure how "infamous" Justin's quote really is. Here is a great analysis of the quote from another site to explain what I mean:
Well, the actual motivations for Justin's statement weren't really the problem; what was at issue was this claim:

“Dionysus was resurrected after his death.” 30

Response: The New Testament scholar Everett Ferguson writes, “Neither Dionysus nor the initiates were thought of as rising from the dead. Rather, the mysteries removed anxiety about death by depicting life in the other world as a Dionysus revel.” 31

Justin's statement clearly shows otherwise! And "New Testament scholar" Everett Ferguson is not writing about his area of expertise. The ordeals of the Mysteries, due to their secrecy, must be left in the realm of speculation. Here is a recent assessment from The Moral Mirror of Roman Art (http://books.google.com/books?id=rCKm0OnZr0kC&pg=PA95&dq=Zagreus#PPA95,M1) by Rabun M. Taylor:

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/1505/picture7ykc.png

Now that's good stuff. It's better than anything found in Zeitgeist Part 1, that's for sure.

The whole subject is so frustrating. The data is all locked up in obscure scholarly journals and ancient manuscripts, and they need to be sifted through carefully and objectively. A book like Christ in Egypt, with its attention to sources, is something that should've been written ten years ago.

[vinnyharris]

[QUOTE=vinnyharris;1040690]From the very link you provided on Mithraism: QUOTE]

vinny: Attention to Details are very important to present accurate information.

I did not provide a Link to Mithras, rather I provided a Link to a Hub Page which links to dozens of copycat jesus'

http://www.tektonics.

Here is the Osirus/Horus Link.

http://www.tektonics.

Face it vinny; Di Di is a 3rd Rate Hack. LOL

Er, speaking of paying attention to details and presenting accurate information - you may want to check yourself first there, Snoopy. If you didn't provide a link to Mithra then I WASN'T TALKING TO YOU.

Nevertheless, my comments WERE accurate - I addressed your post thus:

"tektonics"?

Has JP Holding ever figured out that tekton means Freemason in modern Greek? He's a joke:

JP Holding has no qualifications whatsoever in any Biblical field, knows no Biblical languages, and has no relevant training, yet has the temerity to presume that his OPINION is enough, and that his personal FAITH is all that he needs, to offer a vicious and vitriolic critique of credible credentialed scholars who are trained in this area of expertise. JP Holding has no training in comparative religion. No training in mythology. No training in archaeoastronomy. No training in astrotheology. Nothing relevant.

So, don't take my word for it...see it for yourself.

TEKTONICS.ORG: EXPOSED!
http://the-anointed-one.com/exposed.html

'James Patrick Holding, the Want-to-Be Apologist'
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2002/4/024jph.html

JP Holding Exposed
http://the-anointed-one.com/search2.htm

'Dishonesty by Robert Turkel (J.P. Holding)'
http://www.discord.org/~lippard/turkeldishonesty.html

A Reply to J. P. Holding
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/g_a_wells/holding.html

"Writing James P Holding Off!"
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/06/writing-james-p-holding-off.html

"Prove Jesus Existed, Please!"
http://www.truthbeknown.com/holding.htm

James Patrick Holding: Another Apostate With Selective Education
http://www.darrellwconder.com/debate1.html

Do a google for JP Holding and his alt. "Sheila Rangslinger" -

"DISCLOSURE FROM ADMIN: "Sheila Rangslinger" was discovered to be a sock puppet identity created by J.P. Holding. Any statements about J.P. Holding in this post were written by J.P. Holding himself."

Q. "What are your credentials?"

A. "I have a Masters' Degree in Library Science. What the runs down to is, I'm an expert at looking things up and answering questions"

- JP Holding

JP Holding has never explained how he got that job as prison librarian. WAS HE IN PRISON? IS THAT HOW HE GOT THAT JOB? WHAT WAS HE IN PRISON FOR?

LOL - ROTFLMAO

For your edification enjoy this thread about Holdings new book, "Shattering the Christ Myth"

Shattering Holding's Anti-Mythicist book
http://forums.truthbeknown.com/viewtopic.php?t=2255

You're confused Snoopy - it's your hero JP Holding who's the hack.

[kasalt]

It wasn't 'arbitrary' at all. For example, several early Christian writers connected the rebirth of the sun to the birth of Jesus:

"O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born ... Christ should be born"

-- Cyprian


There is nothing in the Gospels or early Christian tradition (1st-2nd centuries) which states a date of birth for Jesus (Cyprian was 3rd century). Therefore, settling on December 25th as the birthdate was an arbitrary decision. They could have picked any date they wanted, but they chose that date. Of course, I do agree with you that they chose it based on pagan precedence.


Kersey Graves is only cited 7 times in 'Christ Conspiracy' (out of nearly 1,200 footnote citations) and she doesn't rely on him - she brings him up as a starting point for her investigation asking why is he saying what he is. Calling him "one of Acharya S' primary sources" is just dumb. Never do that again.

That may be true for Christ Conspiracy, but what about her other books?

I think her reliance upon Graves' work is a little stronger than you let on. After all, she wrote the forward to the new edition of Graves' The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviours in 2001.

I must say, I do agree with what Blavatsky wrote about Graves' book:

http://sacred-texts.com/the/iu/iu106.htm#fn_704

[kasalt]

Find for me a popular god that wasn't born of a virgin, if you can - good luck with that.

I suppose you're right. After all, I am going to assume that the rock that gave birth to Mithra was a virgin.

[vinnyharris]

kasalt "I do agree with you that they chose it based on pagan precedence."

Precisely why the Dec 25th date wasn't just arbitrary. It was anything but arbitrary.

kasalt "There is nothing in the Gospels or early Christian tradition (1st-2nd centuries)..."

Humm, there were a few clues - if you know what to look for. Read the first chapter of Luke with an emphasis on Luke 1:24-36:

"24 After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion....

26 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

34 "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

36 "And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren."

It's categorically clear that John the Baptist was conceived 6 months before Jesus as Luke 1 reiterates it twice in 26 & 36.

The Catholic Encyclopedia claims that the CONCEPTION of John the Baptist was September 24th i.e. Autumnal equinox. While the feast celebrating his birth, known as St. John's Day, is June 24th - 3 days after the summer solstice. This puts Jesus' birthday, which the bible says is 6 months after John the Baptists' at Christmas.

And if that's not enough we have in the Gospel of John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."

This makes no real sense in human terms but it does explain it if you view it as going from solstice to solstice.

Jesus as the Sun throughout History
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/jesussunexcerpt.html

kasalt "That may be true for Christ Conspiracy, but what about her other books?"

It's irrelevant her work neither stands nor falls on Graves few references. You should read her foreword in that edition before you try to use that as a straw man too. Have you actually read K. Graves? What about Acharya's books?

Blavatsky's review of Graves is irrelevant here too because Acharya fully acknowledges the issues with K. Graves work but asks the question why was he saying what he was saying, and Acharya proceeded to investigate where he was getting his information - which nobody else has done. Calling Graves "one of Acharya S' primary sources" or saying "her reliance upon Graves' work is a little stronger than you let on" is utterly absurd and seems like you've never actually read her work. I have & those claims are bogus. They are lies spread by those who's goal is to smear her work - not saying you are but I often see people repeating this nonsense who've never studied her work and get these comments from the net.

[thirdwave]

You are sounding rather like a Zeitgeist fundamentalist--a true believer in the religion of Zeitgeist, Part 1. Disagreement is blasphemy. Factual errors are not errors but facts.

LOL!, You guys love to create movements don't you!, even if the people you tag have no idea what your bloody on about, I believe that's how the whole Satanist thing got of the road to start with !

I believe in the info that Zeitgeist puts out for two reasons

a, because for me it made perfect sense
b, because of research I have done which pointed out that it was, or at least could very well be correct.

If thats all it takes to be a Zeitgeist fundamentalist then I guess I am... if thats the tag you have given it.

The hilarious thing though is that your whole religion is built up on faith and not at all fact, yet you are so passionate about facts being presented by anyone else taking a different perspective on the texts.. completely ignoring the points raised as if your eyes are incapable of seeing them.


Don't get me wrong. I actually believe that Acharya S' efforts can be of great service to humanity--if only she gets it right.
But you have offered no more "facts" than she has... because its all down to how you percive all this stuff... she simply researches this stuff beyond mainstream scorces and insitutions and comes to her own conclusions... you can agree with her or walk away.. simple as that.

But you are expressing the very mentality that religion is guilty of inflicting on people... oppressing the mind, which leads to an oppressive outlook on others actions.

We are lucky that there are many religious people who's morals come first and they will simply opt for pitty on those who don't live in their box and will just preach and try to pass on their mind set.. but there are some who have and do not take well to it and aim to change and stop others from their free will and peace of mind. This is why many people do not take to well for religion, especially when the good ones cant just drop it and let it go and simply live by example rather than live for an example.


Any criticisms from me are offered in a good faith effort to point her and everyone else in the right direction on specifics. Furthermore, I honestly believe that I am being of more service to Acharya S and the makers of Zeitgeist by pointing out their errors than anyone else is by trying to deny the existence of these errors.
But I highlight again it is simply a case of you favouring one out look to hers, and not providing facts... it is not a fact Jesus was even crucified... there are lots of things we can say are not facts... you choose to see them as so, good for you... But you expect others to make judgement based on the faith you have... and this will never happy when everyone has free will... only with fear induced mind control and oppression.

One of Acharya's main reference sources is The World's 16 Crucified Saviors, by Kersey Graves. I'm sure that by now you've had a chance to read the review of this book at Infidels.org:
I would never judge a book by another mans review... I will review it my self. and its not her main reference she has many references including some of her own references.. I certainty would not let a Christian give me the run down on how good her book is! lol!

that's like asking a Cat to babysit your mouse! :)


And Wikipedia's entry makes the following revealing observation:[A]ll sources Graves used were Freethought texts, which in turn had synthesised random, mis-understood and half-digested pieces of mis-information. Graves constructed from this a theory that religion was concocted by priests and made up of superstition and myth. This belief was consistent with the movement in Royal Arch Freemasonry then to revive Gnosticism as a challenge to church teaching.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kersey_Graves#Criticism

I dont agree with that view of his works... this only highlights how people like this were dusted under the mat many years ago... its not as if this guy was the only guy to highlight much of the bullshit people were mislead by in religion.

None of what these people go through have been recognised as fact because the occult is not understood by the vast majority of the people on the planet, and it is only now we are at a time where much is coming out... Its not shock to see a mainstream text not highlighting such works as Fact.

Wiki can be handy to highlight events and stories, but if you are talking about the validity of religious texts and depictions then I would hardly say Wiki is the way to go... its hardly the place to study the occult... and I have to say the word "Free thought texts" made me chuckle.


Again, this is one of Acharya S' primary sources, and the problems with that are massive, as you can see from Infidels.org and Wikipedia. Well not that you have come close to discrediting him, I believe she highlights an awful lot more people than just him... anyone reading your post would be terribly mislead.


Infidels.org and Wikipedia are hardly biblical fundamentalist sources.
Yet they are good enough for you to use to judge someone trying to put out occult info. :rolleyes:

[thirdwave]

I always wondered why the Jews stopped sacrificing animals, since the Old Testament is basically a litany of slaughter. It was only recently that I found out that the Jews and all the other pagans were banned from committing their beloved blood sacrifices when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire in 325AD. The gladiatorial games were also banned by the Christians. Isn't it strange that we were never taught this extremely important contribution of Christianity to humankind in all the `Western Civilization'/history classes in school/university???

And look - Jehovah hasn't changed at all - still wants his blood sacrifice. the `red heifer' is only the beginning...

I find it strange that through all Jesus's passion, in the NT there is nothing showing any real opposition to the evil in the OT, in fact looking at it, more so the opposite... today, any person looking to point out the evils in the world would not have to look very far in the OT and it would not be exactly be easy to over look some of it... yet the NT in all its power and grace, keeps pretty quite.

[kasalt]

Yet they are good enough for you to use to judge someone trying to put out occult info. :rolleyes:

Is Blavatsky good enough for me to use to judge someone trying to put out occult info? Her quote was posted earlier in this thread; did you miss it? Here it is again:In a recent work, called the "World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors" (by Mr. Kersey Graves) which attracted our notice by its title, we were indeed startled as we were forewarned on the title-page we should be by historical evidences to be found neither in history nor tradition. Apollonius, who is represented in it as one of these sixteen "saviours," is shown by the author as finally "crucified...having risen from the dead...appearing to his disciples after his resurrection, and" --like Christ again-- "convincing a Tommy (?) Didymus" by getting him to feel the print of the nails on his hands and feet (see note, p. 268). To begin with, neither Philostratus, the biographer of Apollonius, nor history says any such thing. Though the precise time of his death is unknown, no disciple of Apollonius ever said that he was either crucified, or appeared to them. So much for one "Saviour." After that we are told that Gautama-Buddha, whose life and death have been so minutely described by several authorities, Barthelemy St. Hilaire included--was also "crucified by his enemies near the foot of the Nepal mountains" (see p. 107); while the Buddhist books, history, and scientific research tell us, through the lips of Max Muller and a host of Orientalists, that "Gautama-Buddha, (Sakya-muni) died near the Ganges... He had nearly reached the city of Kusinagara, when his vital strength began to fail. He halted in a forest, and while sitting under a sal tree he gave up the ghost" (Max Muller: "Chips from a German Workshop," vol. i., p. 213). The references of Mr. Graves to Higgins and Sir W. Jones, in some of his hazardous speculations, prove nothing. Max Muller shows some antiquated authorities writing elaborate books "...in order to prove that Buddha had been in reality the Thoth of the Egyptians; that he was Mercury, or Wodan, or Zoroaster, or Pythagoras... Even Sir W. Jones...identified Buddha first with Odin and afterwards with Shishak." We are in the nineteenth century, not in the eighteenth; and though to write books on the authority of the earliest Orientalists may in one sense be viewed as a mark of respect for old age, it is not always safe to try the experiment in our times. Hence this highly instructive volume lacks one important feature which would have made it still more interesting. The author should have added after Prometheus the "Roman," and Alcides the Egyptian god (p. 266) a seventeenth "crucified Saviour" to the list, "Venus, god of the war," introduced to an admiring world by Mr. Artemus Ward the "showman"!
Source: http://sacred-texts.com/the/iu/iu106.htm#fn_704

[drakul]

vinnyharris- That's actually a lie that keeps getting passed around by folks who've never actually studied Acharya's work &/or others who are just out to smear her regardless. Kersey Graves is only cited 7 times in 'Christ Conspiracy' (out of nearly 1,200 footnote citations) and she doesn't rely on him - she brings him up as a starting point for her investigation asking why is he saying what he is. Calling him "one of Acharya S' primary sources" is just dumb. Never do that again.



Acharya cites Kearsey Graves work at least FOURTEEN TIMES in Christ Conspiracy: pg 65, pg 106 (2 times), pg 116 (2 times), pg 117 (3 times), pg 120, pg 163, pg 222, pg 258 (2 times), pg 269, pg 271.

`Never do that again' - Don't ever think you can get away with lying about what Acharya wrote in Christ Conspiracy.

[drakul]

That Acharya/Murdock writes with the Masonic Theosophist POV is obvious. She literally dedicates Christ Conspiracy to probably the most infamous Mason the world has known: Albert Pike, with a quote from him on pg 2. Then Murdock goes on to cite DIRECTLY from Pike's Masonic Bible - Morals and Dogma at least 28 times, all to prove Jesus never existed. Pike was an AVOWED LUCIFERIAN. Pike states in Morals and Dogma that the Masons WORSHIP LUCIFER. What more do you want?

It is sad and sick that this is the best Acharya/Murdock can present in terms of research and she has the temerity to call herself a `classically trained archeologist`.

Murdock openly proclaims her Masonic credentials on pg 348 in which she states:

"Thus we have seen the remarkable history of Christianity and Masonry. Both are brotherhoods of the Sun. The former exoteric and vulgar. The latter esoteric and refined."

[kasalt]

Well, the actual motivations for Justin's statement weren't really the problem; what was at issue was this claim:

“Dionysus was resurrected after his death.” 30

Response: The New Testament scholar Everett Ferguson writes, “Neither Dionysus nor the initiates were thought of as rising from the dead. Rather, the mysteries removed anxiety about death by depicting life in the other world as a Dionysus revel.” 31

Justin's statement clearly shows otherwise!

Where does Justin say that Dionysus was resurrected after his death?

I've searched but I can't find a source for that.

[1977]

Where does Justin say that Dionysus was resurrected after his death?

I've searched but I can't find a source for that.
Really? I almost always to go through the trouble of citing my sources, even though apparently nobody ever bothers to read them. Here is the very passage that you already quoted:

There is, of course, the infamous passage of Justin (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm):

For when they tell that Bacchus, son of Jupiter, was begotten by [Jupiter's] intercourse with Semele, and that he was the discoverer of the vine; and when they relate, that being torn in pieces, and having died, he rose again, and ascended to heaven; and when they introduce wine into his mysteries, do I not perceive that [the devil] has imitated the prophecy announced by the patriarch Jacob, and recorded by Moses?

And the page already linked in that post, from the Dialogue with Trypho: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm

[kasalt]

Really? I almost always to go through the trouble of citing my sources, even though apparently nobody ever bothers to read them. Here is the very passage that you already quoted:

And the page already linked in that post, from the Dialogue with Trypho: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01286.htm

Okay, the problem was that I was forgetting that Dionysus and Bacchus are the same...:o

[vinnyharris]

drakul "Don't ever think you can get away with lying about what Acharya wrote in Christ Conspiracy."

Yes, I know you're always out to spew whatever hatred towards Acharya you can find - 7/14? IRRELEVANT! Out of nearly 1,200 citations drakul - get over your OBSESSION. The index lists Graves 7 times because they only list once per page. I've never seen anybody get soooo ANAL over citations. You need to see a doctor.

drakul "That Acharya/Murdock writes with the Masonic Theosophist POV is obvious"

Only to those spreading that nonsensical rhetoric who've never actually read her works.

drakul "She literally dedicates Christ Conspiracy to probably the most infamous Mason the world has known: Albert Pike..."

Yet, another lie. If there's anything you're reliable for drakul, I can always count on your to spread lies about Acharya's work.

"Pike was an AVOWED LUCIFERIAN. Pike states in Morals and Dogma that the Masons WORSHIP LUCIFER. What more do you want?"

LMAO! What more do I want? How about actually understanding what he means when he says "Lucifer"? Because it's not your biblical Lucifer/Satan. I realize that completely pulls the carpet out from your argument and that is inconvenient.

drakul "It is sad and sick that this is the best Acharya/Murdock can present in terms of research and she has the temerity to call herself a `classically trained archeologist`"

What's really sad is to have to see you constantly working so hard to spread lies about Acharya. Why are you so OBSESSED with smearing her? Why does everybody else here have to constantly suffer YOUR LIES about Acharya? I'm surprised you haven't been banned as often as you smear, libel and maliciously attack Acharya. After all, her work backs up David Ickes and he writes all about the Freemasons and he mentions her in his books yet he never calls her a Freemason nor a theosophist. And they're friends so David Icke KNOWS for a fact that she's none of those things. Whoops, sorry, that totally ruins your credibility here too.

Nevertheless, what are YOUR qualifications and credentials drakul since you pretend to be the expert? What inerrant scholarly books have you written? What linguistic skills have you? Give us a reason why anybody should listen to a word you say?

drakul "Murdock openly proclaims her Masonic credentials"

LMAO! Nice gigantic leap of faith there drakul - More lies, you're in such bad habit of lying constantly about her work that you just can't help it any more. that quote comes from a section titled "the role of Masonry" exposing the Freemasonic creation of Christianity! Yeah, she's a Freemason - can't you tell by the way she exposes them!(sarcasm)

Geeeez, (shakes head in amazement) some people just never get it.

Me thinks thou doth protest to much, drakul.

[kasalt]

Precisely why the Dec 25th date wasn't just arbitrary. It was anything but arbitrary.

I get your point but my point is that there was well over a couple of centuries that went by before the Dec 25th date was settled upon, which strikes me as rather "ex post facto" to say the very least.

Humm, there were a few clues - if you know what to look for. Read the first chapter of Luke with an emphasis on Luke 1:24-36:

It's categorically clear that John the Baptist was conceived 6 months before Jesus as Luke 1 reiterates it twice in 26 & 36.

The Catholic Encyclopedia claims that the CONCEPTION of John the Baptist was September 24th i.e. Autumnal equinox. While the feast celebrating his birth, known as St. John's Day, is June 24th - 3 days after the summer solstice. This puts Jesus' birthday, which the bible says is 6 months after John the Baptists' at Christmas.

And if that's not enough we have in the Gospel of John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."

This makes no real sense in human terms but it does explain it if you view it as going from solstice to solstice.

That's good information, imo.

It is not my intention to doubt that Christianity is a solar-based religion. My only true intention is to get the facts straight, and clear up any stray errors that I may find along the way.

We all know that Roman Catholicism is a solar-based religion. In fact, I think everyone on this thread would agree with that.

[mikel84]

christianity is based on jesus christnas followers
krishna was also known as jesus christ he was born in india and in fact killed king herod to fulfill the prophecy
that is why herod wanted all babies killed as soon as he heard about the birth of vishnu

[thirdwave]

The Mess of Acharya S (http://opposingdigits.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=30218#30218)

- Includes Jordan Maxwell taking some credit for the misinformation.

Christianity is largely supported by controlled opposition that's set up to fail.


Thats just the Christ White video and is just Christian bullshit at its finest... you cant debunk something using the "facts" that the source is aiming to debunk! lol

Thats like me saying "You are a murderer and hiding it!!" and you saying, "No Im not, I officially have not killed anyone!"

The videos are simply about reinforcing the belief in Christian "facts". nothing to do with alternative research.

[thirdwave]

Damn, vinnyharris is banned? :( .. Was nice to have someone on this subject who new what they were talking about.. ahh well...

[drakul]

[QUOTE]Yes, I know you're always out to spew whatever hatred towards Acharya you can find - 7/14? IRRELEVANT! Out of nearly 1,200 citations drakul - get over your OBSESSION. The index lists Graves 7 times because they only list once per page. I've never seen anybody get soooo ANAL over citations. You need to see a doctor.


Not true - if you read Acharya/Murdock's work as you claim to - as in Christ Conspiracy you should know that - EACH author citation is listed separately at the end of the chapter. The number per page makes no difference. Each quoted source is cited independently.

Only to those spreading that nonsensical rhetoric who've never actually read her works.


See above.


LMAO! What more do I want? How about actually understanding what he means when he says "Lucifer"? Because it's not your biblical Lucifer/Satan. I realize that completely pulls the carpet out from your argument and that is inconvenient.

In the Biggest Secret - pgs 197-199 David Icke repeatedly refers to Acharya's icon of wisdom - 33rd degree Mason Albert Pike as a `SATANIST'. In fact it was David Icke who taught me what an evil person Pike was.

What's really sad is to have to see you constantly working so hard to spread lies about Acharya. Why are you so OBSESSED with smearing her? Why does everybody else here have to constantly suffer YOUR LIES about Acharya? I'm surprised you haven't been banned as often as you smear, libel and maliciously attack Acharya.

`Banned' - Is that a threat? Now we see the real Acharya/Murdock coming out. Maybe that's why whenever I go to Murdock's site there are only 1 or 2 people there. And I wasn't aware this is HER forum, (to uncritically push her books), I thought this site belongs to David Icke.

You think Murdock is the only author who gets criticized on this site?

After all, her work backs up David Ickes and he writes all about the Freemasons and he mentions her in his books yet he never calls her a Freemason nor a theosophist. And they're friends so David Icke KNOWS for a fact that she's none of those things. Whoops, sorry, that totally ruins your credibility here too.


There is in fact a huge chasm betw Murdock and Icke and that chasm is Freemasonry. Icke regards freemasonry as the evil brotherhood pyramid of world control whereas Murdock openly acts as an Agent of Influence for Masonry. Her book Christ Conspiracy is pure unadulterated adulation of the masonic brotherhood. On pg 405 Murdock states (and this is only a short exerpt):

The Grand Architect demonstrated here his masterful skill through the precise workings of the solar system which were not only revered by the ancient global culture but imitated on Earth in massive stoneworks that are the domain of MASONS who also kept the knowledge of the sacred geometry passed to them by the Architect. Evidently these priest-MASONS passionately attempted to keep the Architect's `clock' wherever they went thus they built celestial `computers' worldwide.....

and on and on ad nauseum.


Nevertheless, what are YOUR qualifications and credentials drakul since you pretend to be the expert? What inerrant scholarly books have you written? What linguistic skills have you? Give us a reason why anybody should listen to a word you say?


I use Murdock's own words.

LMAO! Nice gigantic leap of faith there drakul - More lies, you're in such bad habit of lying constantly about her work that you just can't help it any more. that quote comes from a section titled "the role of Masonry" exposing the Freemasonic creation of Christianity! Yeah, she's a Freemason - can't you tell by the way she exposes them!(sarcasm)

The Murdock quote above from Christ Conspiracy is very far from a critical expose' of Masonry. And that's just one of many paens of Masonic adulation in her book. Which figures since Murdock uses a known Luciferian/Satanist as a key source - 33rd degree Albert Pike.

[drakul]

Here is a fascinating excerpt about Albert Pike's role in starting the American Civil War in which 250,000 people died, from Ickes' the Biggest Secret - pgs 197 - 198

[I]Leading Freemasons from all over Europe attended 6 Masonic festivals in Paris between 1841 -1845. It was at 6 secret Supreme Council meetings held under the cover of these events that the American Civil War was planned to further impose Masonic reptile-Aryan control on America. Lord Palmeston, British Foreign Sec and Prime Minister and a Grand Patriarch of Freemasonry was at the heart of these conspiracies. Two 33rd degree Freemasons of the Scottish Rite were chosen to manipulate the conflict. They were Caleb Cushing who worked in the north among the unionists and Albert Pike, Sovereign Grand Commander of the Sthrn Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite who organized the sthrn rebellion. Ironically but highly appropriately the funding for the sthrn rebellion was arranged through London Masonic bankers who were operating in the north!

Pike - a Satanist who believed in the Aryan (reptile-Aryan) Master Race, enlisted the help of Giuseppe Mazzini the head of the Italian Grand Orient Freemasonry out of which emerged the infamous organized crime operation called the Mafia.

Pike died in 1891 in Washington DC, his funeral was held in the Freemasonic Temple at midnight with the room draped entirely in black. This man was a Satanist through and through. He is a Freemasonic `god' and his statue stands near the Washington police headquarters a short walk from Capitol Hill.

/I]

There is much more - Icke talks about how the Freemasons organized the assassination of Abraham Lincoln and after the war Pike established the dreaded KKK. A fascinating read. So the question remains paramount - WHY would Acharya/Murdock use Albert Pike as a source to prove that Jesus Christ never existed? 1+1=?

An easy google search brings up a plethora about Albert Pike as a civil war general. Pike was so incompetent that he was the only southern general ever to lose a battle in which he had the majority of troops! Pike's main contribution to the war effort appears to have been raiding and killiing small helpless farmers. For these reasons Pike was RELIEVED OF HIS COMMAND by Jefferson Davis who was also a high ranking Mason. That tells you something. The man Pike was just a crude assassin, and a stupid one at that, for the Confederates to kick him off the force, as powerful as he was. And yet and here's the kicker -

Pike is the ONLY Southern General to have his statue in Washington DC!

Now you tell me why.