Gnosticism

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

christian gnostics:

It has been more then one year since I posted my queries.

Phildee3 and kasalt are not able to answer them, so now I open the Queries to all christian gnostics.


1: So answer these queries: How do you Biblically define Righteous/ness; Sin; Iniquity?

2: Why does Yahshua Messiah and ALL His Apostles constantly; throughout the entire New Testament: Cite and Quote Directly from the Tanakh/Old Testament, the words of Yahweh, and Yahwehs Patriarchs and Prophets and tell everybody to Heed Them?

3: Do you deny that Yahshua HaMessiah and His Apostles were Torah Conscious and Observant Jews?

4: Do you deny they went to the Synagogues on Yahwehs Sabbath and read from the Tanach?

5: They taught all Humans, Jews and Gentiles about Torah Consciousness and Torah Observation.

Bonus Query #6: You say the Patriarchs and Prophets of Yahweh are deceived; How So?

The Conclusion I have reached after exercising Due Diligence by surveying Broad Spectrums of Data Relevant to the Topic at Hand, gnosis of christianity is: Ludicrous; Deceitful and Counterproductive.

Agree or Disagree? If not, explain.


Ludicrous: It's number one Core Doctrine is: Yahweh is not the'god' of the 'new testament'. I, personally cannot think of anyother premise that is more preposterous. The Subject of every Verse of Scripture from Bereshith/genesis to Revelation is Yahweh. And ALL the Prophets only prophecied of Yahshua Messiah.

The entirety of Scripture was written by men Inspired by Yahweh, thus all Scripture is: D.R.T.R. Data Resistant To Reinterpretation. It is all interlocked and bolsters and supports itself. There is Corporate Solidarity and Univocity.

To say Yahweh is not the 'god of the 'new testament' is a gossamer assertion that does not have one Verse of Yahwehs Scripture to support it.

This is Hubris of unequaled proportions; a pissant mortal human 'thinks' they can remove Yahweh from Scripture He was the Inspiration for.

:rolleyes: X Infinity and then some.

What is sad is, it is a Lie, it is untruthful.

What begins in deceit ends in defeat.

So gnosis of christianity has no Foundation to build upon. Just assertion.

Their Core Message is the Exact Same as the Serpent told Mother Eve, in Yahwehs Garden; Eden:

1:Yahweh is a Liar

2: Yahweh is not a Benevolent and Loving Father to His Creation; Humankind.

http://www.raystedman.org/genesis/0314.html

THE ENTICEMENT OF EVIL
by Ray C. Stedman

http://www.mashiyach.com/hebrew.htm

Which language did Yeshua and his Disciples communicate?



I'LL BE BACK


Kind Regards

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

No, I guess you can't.

It was a really easy one too!

here, wipe yourself.

I guess this is over your head..

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Editorials/?page=new_evidence_for_sacred_names_in&type=2

The following comes from Talmud Shabbat 116A. In this discussion several rabbis are discussing when a Torah scroll can be burned if damaged or defiled.The general consensus is that even in scrolls that have damaged or blank spaces must not be burned. Then the topic comes around to the scrolls or the GILYON or blank spaces in the Books (plural) of the Minim or (Nazarene heretics) and how they should be handled. The word GILYON means gospel or good tidings.So the issue here is the places in the gospels (BOOKS OF THE MINIM) that contain the Divine Name. HOW SHOULD THOSE HERETICAL BOOKS BE HANDELED? SHOULD THEY BE BURNED?


The Renewed Covenant/nt is a: Non-Paganic Jewish Document.

It is not a: Paganic Greek Document.

To say it is makes the sayer either, uninformed, devoid of discernment, or willfully a Liar, Cheat and Thief.

Which are you phil?

Here is something for you to embrace, it is much more substantial and legitimate than 'gnosis of christianity'.

You do have to learn ventriliquism though...

lol


http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/alex01.html

[phildee3]

No, I guess you can't.

It was a really easy one too!



And one is all it takes -

when it's right between the eyes!

[kasalt]

I'll tell you what I have told kasalt numerous times.

You ain't gonna' run with the Big Dogs while you still shit like a puppy.

I didn't realize that this was a competition based on who could produce a bigger pile of dogshit.

[mauviene]

I don't know if this has been said yet..but wasn't gnosticism born out of christian collaboration with Buddhism?

[elirien]

http://www.mashiyach.com/hebrew.htm

Which language did Yeshua and his Disciples communicate?



Sorry to butt in here but this question interested me. It was "Aramaic" [bonus: where the word for God is "Allahu"].

For more information have a look at this:

Amazon.com: The Hidden Gospel: Decoding the Spiritual Message of the Aramaic Jesus (9780835607957): Neil Douglas-Klotz: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518XQJ2RH5L.@@AMEPARAM@@518XQJ2RH5L

There is also an audio book torrent around somewhere...

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

And one is all it takes -

when it's right between the eyes!

Here, wipe yourself.

:eek:

I didn't realize that this was a competition based on who could produce a bigger pile of dogshit.

If it was, you would be the World Champion.

But it is not, it was a Brilliant Expose by Snoopsnuffleopagus Ace Cub Reporter for SnoopsGnus.

These 6 Queries will be presented to other gnostic xtian Forums and Chatrooms, the results will be most revealing. ;)

Thanks for your non-responses. I really expected more.

Kind Regards





Just Say Gno to Gnosticism

[phildee3]

If it was, you would be the World Champion.



If the puppy is world champion, it's because the "big dog" is so constipated (= full of it).

[torus]

Drink half a bottle of cheap Scotch, eat the strongest, most repulsively hot Vindaloo curry with an excess of Mexican Chilli peppers, take three tablespoons of Epsom salts, sit with pleasant anticipation upon the gilded excremental seating lodge within the contemplative solitude of your own bathroom and expel from within your guts, in one glorious blast of diarrhea, all of the lies and hypocrisies you were taught were the "Words of God" and the "Wisdom of Men".

Then wipe your ass, and be free.
-Michael James

[torus]

Hey Vau Hey Yod
Don't dream it's over
Hey Vau Hey Yod
When the world comes in
They come, they come
To build a wall between us
We know they won't win

[dedicate]

How can there be any "right" answers here, snoop? Especially since it is said to be a test on gnostisism?

-- How do you Biblically define Righteous/ness; Sin; Iniquity?
Answer: Yes.

-- Why does Yahshua Messiah and ALL His Apostles constantly; throughout the entire New Testament: Cite and Quote Directly from the Tanakh/Old Testament, the words of Yahweh, and Yahwehs Patriarchs and Prophets and tell everybody to Heed Them?
Answer: Yes.

3: Do you deny that Yahshua HaMessiah and His Apostles were Torah Conscious and Observant Jews?

4: Do you deny they went to the Synagogues on Yahwehs Sabbath and read from the Tanach?

Answer to both: No.

I agree with no.5.

Bonus round question: You say the Patriarchs and Prophets of Yahweh are deceived; How So?
Answer: It's not always Jahova the Propthets were speaking for. I think many people believe Jahova was the Race God of the Jews. But the Prophets were speaking for the I Am That I Am, too. One must decide when the Prophets were speaking for the Race God and when he was speaking for the Absolute form, for himself, or go to the original Hebrew. It is us the people who are deceived.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

lol

It is not as though I have not provided a plethora of Credentialed Scholarship, I have.

Let us try again:


Michael S Heiser

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/What%20is%20an%20Elohim.pdf

http://www.anelanguages.com/


John P Meier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_P._Meier

Another 'Conclusion' I have reached is the US and the UK each have the Government their peeps deserve.

http://www.yahweh.com/PWMags/PW12-04/search.htm

http://www.mashiyach.com/consciousness.htm

Torah Consciousness

http://www.mashiyach.com/torah%20consciousness.htm

Easy Queries, requires Total Honesty to answer.

Kind Regards

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

christian gnostics:

It has been more then one year since I posted my queries.

1: So answer these queries: How do you Biblically define Righteous/ness; Sin; Iniquity?

2: Why does Yahshua Messiah and ALL His Apostles constantly; throughout the entire New Testament: Cite and Quote Directly from the Tanakh/Old Testament, the words of Yahweh, and Yahwehs Patriarchs and Prophets and tell everybody to Heed Them?

3: Do you deny that Yahshua HaMessiah and His Apostles were Torah Conscious and Observant Jews?

4: Do you deny they went to the Synagogues on Yahwehs Sabbath and read from the Tanach?

5: They taught all Humans, Jews and Gentiles about Torah Consciousness and Torah Observation.

Bonus Query #6: You say the Patriarchs and Prophets of Yahweh are deceived; How So?

The Conclusion I have reached after exercising Due Diligence by surveying Broad Spectrums of Data Relevant to the Topic at Hand, gnosis of christianity is: Ludicrous; Deceitful and Counterproductive.

Agree or Disagree? If not, explain.


Ludicrous: It's number one Core Doctrine is: Yahweh is not the'god' of the 'new testament'. I, personally cannot think of anyother premise that is more preposterous. The Subject of every Verse of Scripture from Bereshith/genesis to Revelation is Yahweh. And ALL the Prophets only prophecied of Yahshua Messiah.

The entirety of Scripture was written by men Inspired by Yahweh, thus all Scripture is: D.R.T.R. Data Resistant To Reinterpretation. It is all interlocked and bolsters and supports itself. There is Corporate Solidarity and Univocity.

To say Yahweh is not the 'god of the 'new testament' is a gossamer assertion that does not have one Verse of Yahwehs Scripture to support it.

This is Hubris of unequaled proportions; a pissant mortal human 'thinks' they can remove Yahweh from Scripture He was the Inspiration for.

:rolleyes: X Infinity and then some.

So gnosis of christianity has no Foundation to build upon. Just assertion.

Their Core Message is the Exact Same as the Serpent told Mother Eve, in Yahwehs Garden; Eden:

1:Yahweh is a Liar

2: Yahweh is not a Benevolent and Loving Father to His Creation; Humankind.

http://www.raystedman.org/genesis/0314.html

THE ENTICEMENT OF EVIL
by Ray C. Stedman

http://www.mashiyach.com/hebrew.htm

Which language did Yeshua and his Disciples communicate?

Kind Regards

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Ladies & Gentlemen; Most Cordial & Munificent Honorifics and Felicitous Salutations:

Kind Regards :p

Dissin' YHWH and attempting to usurp the Authority of Yahshua haMessiah is quite the Popular 'Trend' :rolleyes: these days........

YHWHs Misogynystic, Politically Incorrect, Genocidal whatever..........:rolleyes:

Perhaps some day these critics will realise the problem is on their end. And that perhaps they have examined the matter superficially and in a biased, predetermined manner.

Yet...when one examines the Facts of History, Science, Art, Medicine and Sociology, we realise YHWHs Wisdom reigns supreme.

Father does know best!!

lol

Let us examine some of His Peerless Wisdom and 'see' if it would provide actual Tangible Benefits to both Individuals and Society in General.

I am convinced it does. :)

There are six things which Yahweh hates,
seven which are an abomination to him:
haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil,
a false witness who breathes out lies, and a man who sows discord among brothers.
(Proverbs 6:16-19)

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/hollymick/Macht1953.pdf

An Experimental Pharmacological Appreciation of Leviticus 11 an Deuteronomy XIV

http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Further_Research/Health/-Louisiana%20Health%20Problem%20thesis.pdf

Experimental Relationship Between Leviticus XL, Deuteronomy XIV, and Poor Health of Louisiana Population

http://www.cdc.gov/STD/



By heeding His Wisdom, Torah(Instruction for Righteous Living) many problems never arise.

There are several Torahs; Hebrew-English Glossaries in my resources link. Also many Torah Exegesis and Epexegesis at the various web-sites.

Check em' out.

Think of the 'Common Good', everybody lives well, no Classism, Eliteism, Oppression rather then 'self-interest', 'self-aggrandizement, and 'self-materiel enrichment'.

Yes!! it is the most subversive and dangerous message in the Universe.

http://www.mashiyach.com/kingdom/kingdom.htm


Kind Regards

[kasalt]

[Paul] was, if any of the Epistles that bear his name are really his, entirely a Hellenist in thought and sentiment. As such he was imbued with the notion that "the whole creation groaneth" for liberation from "the prison-house of the body," from this earthly existence, which, because of its pollution by sin and death, is intrinsically evil (Gal. i. 4; Rom. v. 12, vii. 23-24, viii. 22; I Cor. vii. 31; II Cor. v. 2, 4; comp. Philo, "De Allegoriis Legum," iii. 75; idem, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 17; idem, "De Ebrietate," § 26; and Wisdom ii.24). As a Hellenist, also, he distinguished between an earthly and a heavenly Adam (I Cor. xv. 45-49; comp. Philo, "De Allegoriis Legum," i. 12), and, accordingly, between the lower psychic. life and the higher spiritual life attained only by asceticism (Rom. xii. 1; I Cor. vii. 1-31, ix. 27, xv. 50; comp. Philo, "De Profugis," § 17; and elsewhere). His whole state of mind shows the influence of the theosophic or Gnostic lore of Alexandria, especially the Hermes literature recently brought to light by Reizenstein in his important work "Poimandres," 1904 (see Index, s. v. "Paulus," "Briefe des Paulus," and "Philo"); hence his strange belief in supernatural powers (Reizenstein, l.c. pp. 77, 287), in fatalism, in "speaking in tongues" (I Cor. xii.-xiv.; comp. Reizenstein, l.c. p. 58; Dieterich, "Abraxas," pp. 5 et seq.; Weinel, "Die Wirkungen des Geistes und der Geister," 1899, pp. 72 et seq.; I Cor. xv. 8; II Cor. xii. 1-6; Eph. iii. 3), and in mysteries or sacraments (Rom. xvi. 25; Col. i. 26, ii. 2, iv. 3; Eph. i. 9, iii. 4, vi. 19)—a term borrowed solely from heathen rites.
Source: http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=283&letter=S#964
The Greek context and style of the letters of Paul have been probed and analyzed in detail, confirming that the whole of Paul's letters reflect the literary forms of Greek rhetoric and writing style and the oral patterns of classical Greek drama and philosophy.
Source: http://orvillejenkins.com/languages/jesusandhebrew.html

[1977]

His whole state of mind shows the influence of the theosophic or Gnostic lore of Alexandria, especially the Hermes literature recently brought to light by Reizenstein in his important work "Poimandres," 1904 (see Index, s. v. "Paulus," "Briefe des Paulus," and "Philo"); hence his strange belief in supernatural powers (Reizenstein, l.c. pp. 77, 287), in fatalism, in "speaking in tongues" (I Cor. xii.-xiv.; comp. Reizenstein, l.c. p. 58; Dieterich, "Abraxas," pp. 5 et seq.; Weinel, "Die Wirkungen des Geistes und der Geister," 1899, pp. 72 et seq.; I Cor. xv. 8; II Cor. xii. 1-6; Eph. iii. 3), and in mysteries or sacraments (Rom. xvi. 25; Col. i. 26, ii. 2, iv. 3; Eph. i. 9, iii. 4, vi. 19)—a term borrowed solely from heathen rites.
truth hurts don't it

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Complete Bullshit.

You must learn to discern by Testing, and then holding what proves to be true.

This is why you and phil won't biblically define Sin, Iniquity and Righteous/ness, because it exposes your Fraud.

Did The Apostle Shaul Do Away With Yahweh's Law?

http://www.yahweh.com/Booklets/Shaul/DoAway.htm


This added Law, which the Apostle Shaul spoke of, was the Law of the Levitical Priesthood. When Mosheh brought the Children of Israyl out of the land of Egypt, the Aaronic Priesthood was given to Mosheh's brother, who was the firstborn son in Mosheh's family. This Law of the firstborn as Priests was in effect until the incident of the golden calf at Horeb. Because of this sin, which came to pass 430 years after the institution of the ratified covenant, with the firstborn as Priests, the Levites were taken as Priests instead of the firstborn, as it says in:
Numbers 3:41,45—
41 And you shall take the Levites for Me in place of all the firstborn among the children of Israyl, and the livestock of the Levites in place of all the firstborn of the livestock of the children of Israyl. I am Yahweh.
45 Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israyl, and the livestock of the Levites instead of their livestock. The Levites shall be Mine. I am Yahweh.


Yahshua Messiah took the place of the Levitical Priesthood whose duty it was to stand daily, offering the same sacrifices which could never take away sins:
Hebrews 10:11-12—
11 And every priest stands daily, ministering and offering again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of Yahweh,

Hebrews 5:6—
As He also says in another Scripture: You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:21—
For they became priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him Who said to Him: Yahweh has vowed and will not relent; You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 10:21—
And having a High Priest over The House of Yahweh:


The Levitical Priesthood Law was added, because of the sin which was committed, but the covenant which was ratified at first included the firstborn as Priest as a promise.

However, Yahshua taking this place in no way does away with any of the other Laws, Statutes, and Judgments which were not added, but were Ordained from the Beginning.

The Levitical Priesthood Law, created for the offering of animal sacrifices after the firstborn son of the Children of Israyl had disqualified themselves as priests, was not from the original promise. The Apostle Shaul wrote for our understanding in:
Hebrews 9:1-15—
1 So then, the first priesthood had both the ordinances of service and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For this was the tabernacle layout: the first part in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the Holy Place;
3 And behind the second veil, the inner part of the tabernacle, which is called the Most Holy Place;
4 Which had the altar of incense, and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were placed the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;
5 And above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.
6 Now when these things had been arranged in this way, the priests always went into the first part; the Holy Place, performing the service of Yahweh;
7 But into the second part; the Most Holy Place, only the High Priest went once a year on the Day of Atonement, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins of the people which had been committed in ignorance.
8 The Holy Spirit signifying this: that the way into the Most Holy Place was not yet made manifest, as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.
9 This is a representation of the present time; in which gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him that performs the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience—
10 Only about foods and drinks, various washings, and ordinances of flesh, until the time of reformation.
11 But the Messiah came near as a High Priest over the righteous things to come, with the great and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation;
12 Nor through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once, for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats, and the ashes of a red heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
14 How much more will the blood of the Messiah, Who, through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to Yahweh, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living Father?
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the renewed covenant, under which, through the means of death to bring redemption from transgressions committed under the covenant, the first who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


The renewed covenant, of which Yahshua Messiah is the Mediator, is not Lawless the renewed covenant, which Yahshua mediates, is to obey Yahweh's Laws completely and to love doing so.

Hebrews 10:16—
This is the covenant that I will renew with them after those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.

Hebrews 10:26—
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.

An on-going argument: How "non-Jesus" was Paul, really?
TABLE OF CONTENTS and INTRO

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/muslix.html

Questions on Paul, Jesus, and Middle Platonism

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/muddleplatonismx1.html

Mis-Representation and Mis-Characterization is an Absence of Love.

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/articles/?page=shankbones&type=8

Today we find the literal fulfillment of this prophetic parable. We recall the warnings of Rav Shaul (Paul) in I Tim. 4:1-3. He reminds us that the latter days (the days immediately preceding Yahshua’s return to this earth), will be the days of widespread demonic doctrines (verse 1). We must not think that the modern Hellenized pagan church system, simply woke up one morning and found itself the unjust victim of some kind of third party imposed heathenism. church apostasy (I Tim. 4:1, 2 Thess 2:1) is a direct result of the early church fathers adopting and then bequeathing a shankbone mentality to church adherents.

The Apostle Shaul/Paul specifically refutes and rebukes Hellenic Gnosticism throughout his writings.

What is Gnosticsim?

http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain18.htm

The Gnostic Jesus, a Gnostic Christianity

Gnosticism is a Greek term which relates to a special kind of privileged knowledge that is not common to all but to chosen ones. A Gnostic is a `knowing one'. (Gnosis means to know, we are familiar with the word agnostic - one who claims not to know). The Gnostics supposedly had knowledge of God that was exclusive, that another did not have. They considered themselves superior to the average Christian. The Gnostics taught that man is composed of body, soul, and spirit. The body and the soul are man's earthly existence, and evil. Enclosed in the soul, is the spirit a divine substance of man. This “spirit” is asleep and ignorant; it needs to be awakened and liberated by this special knowledge. (This teaching is also found in Caballa.) To the early Christian Gnostic salvation came by knowledge and experience, not by the Word of God. Those who did not have this knowledge were associated with ignorance. It was through esoteric truth they received direct revelation from the Spirit which was more important than the Word. Instead real spirituality according to the Bible promotes humility rather than pride.

This totally refutes your position
Writers of the New Testament condemned many of the Gnostic teachings. There are numerous epistles that address this ancient heresy that is now having a revival. Paul emphasized a wisdom and knowledge that comes from God and does not concern itself with idle speculations, angelic visitations, fables, and a amoral lifestyle (Col. 2:8-23; 1 Tim. 1:4; 2 Tim. 2:16-19; Titus 1:10-16). Paul addresses the Gnostic influences in portions of Colossians as a direct threat to Christ being our salvation and His being sufficient in all things. To overcome the indulgences of the flesh The “Colossian Heresy” taught a false philosophy, which denied the all-sufficiency and pre-eminence of Jesus Christ (Col. 2:8). When he wrote that “in him dwells All the fullness of the deity bodily” it was a rebuttal against the Gnostics.

Gnosticism pt.2

http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain19.htm


It's is time to be honest. Answer the questions I posed and you expose yourself, as Frauds.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

The Biggest Lie, concerning Christianity, after the Lie of Gnosis of Christianity, IS: The Torah 'has been done away with', IS 'obsolete'.

Of course those who present the message of the Serpent in Yahwehs Garden will tell you these Lies also.

Examine the Evidence for yourself:

http://www.tntrevealed.org/radioshow.cfm?c=22&l=29

That is the world without Torah, it is a body in a fire with no nervous system or ability to detect that it is in danger. The Torah is like our eyes which allow us to see danger, and like our nervous system that sends pain to warn us of danger.

So the Torah defines for us the path of life and warns us of the path of death. It is in fact, the instruction of life, and the word Torah, in fact, means instruction.

THE TORAH, DONE AWAY? 3-7-05 Edition
http://www.tntrevealed.org/radioshow.cfm?c=5&l=4

What is Torah?
http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id32.html

Torah is the Hebrew word meaning teaching. It's root means to throw or shoot an arrow. YHVH uses this word Torah in scripture to signify His Teaching to His people. The Teaching which Yahweh gave Moshe (Moses) is called the Torah of Moshe, but this does not mean that Moses authored it, only that he received it from Yahweh.
When Torah is mentioned it is most often associated with the Torah of Moshe, meaning the Torah, or Teaching which Yahweh gave to Israel in the wilderness. However, Yahweh uses the word Torah to signify His instructions throughout the Hebrew scriptures, including the Prophets and the Psalms. Since all of His Word is His Teaching, all of it is His Torah.

When Did the Disciples of Yahshua (Jesus) Stop Observing the Torah (Old Testament Laws)?

http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id64.html

The Faith of Abraham

http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id51.html

This explores a source of mis-understanding
AWRKHA L'KHAYA
THE PATH TO LIFE: UNDERSTANDING THE 18 GREATEST MISTAKES IN NEW
TESTAMENT INTERPRETATION
http://www.thepathtolife.com/PathtoLife.pdf

Mashiach ben Yoseph
By Elhanan ben Avraham

http://www.mashiyach.com/Downloads/mashiachbenyoseph.pdf

"The Torah was given in the language of men," in order that they might hear and understand. The achievements of men, especially in our time, have been outstanding, including the elevation of himself to heights above the laws of gravity, even into outer space. From such an elevated position he has been able to view the planet which contains all his history and sentiment and note from above that man himself is less visible than dust on an orange.
The Torah, on the other hand, was handed down to give men a view from the highest mountain in the highest range, as it were. From that high peak may be seen from whence he has come, where he stands at present, and choices he has regarding his future. The view is so magnificent that one may see beyond the evidence collected by the limited means of the senses and the reason dependent on them, into the realm of motive and origin, where all may be seen in the detail, and the detail is the reflection of all. As it is written: "In your light we shall see light." (Psalm/Tehilim 36:10).
As a tree is dependent on its root and cannot be separated from it, so each history given us in the Torah is foundational regarding future events and their meanings. As the Divine Hand was incorporated in the recording of the events, so it was not given for the end of entertainment, i.e. as an end in itself, but for instruction and edification, viable and pertinent in all generations.
I would like here to consider the Torah account of Yoseph Ha-Tzadik (Joseph), the "dreamer of dreams," and his brothers, the children of Israel. Perhaps, with G-d's help, we will see in light of the words and movements of those people in relation to one another, an even greater light, pertinent even to ourselves in our day.
I will call the story of Yoseph a love story, even though it is based on hatred, jealousy, and crime perpetuated by brothers against their own brother. I say a love story, for it is a wonderful picture of the working of G-d's love, as contrasted to the frailties and treacheries in the efforts of even the best of men.

Explain how the Apostle Shaul/Paul could declare himself to be a Pharisee and a Hebrew amongst Hebrews and possibly embrace any Hellenic/Paganic Doctrines.

It is impossible! The Torah is THE Continuum from Genesis to the Revelation of Yahweh.

[phildee3]

Complete Bullshit.

You must learn to discern by Testing, and then holding what proves to be true.

This is why you and phil won't biblically define Sin, Iniquity and Righteous/ness, because it exposes your Fraud.



I can't speak for kasalt, but the actual reasons why I don't answer is because
i) you already have an answer that you consider to be "correct" and nothing is going to change your mind one iota, and
ii) I don't know wtf you mean! Are you asking for my definition or the Bible's? - and to what end??

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

I can't speak for kasalt, but the actual reasons why I don't answer is because
i) you already have an answer that you consider to be "correct" and nothing is going to change your mind one iota, and
ii) I don't know wtf you mean! Are you asking for my definition or the Bible's? - and to what end??

I have explained this to you several times. :rolleyes:

You present a Double Standard when you disregard the Biblical Definition of words, yet precisely define other words the way you want. Which as Professor Michael S Heiser points out, you are wrong.

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/

The words Yahweh has provided for us do have a specific meaning, and the Authors have a specific Intent, which the gnosticists 'Twist & Pervert' to support their pretext of Hellenic/Paganic Doctrines.

That, by any measure, is shameful behaviour, as it is untruthful.

http://yahweh.com/PWMags/PW12-04/search.htm

As the Encyclopedia Judaica told us earlier, in order to bring forth the false, pagan, pre-existent God-savior, Christianity was forced to change and reinterpret the writings of Volume Two of The Holy Scriptures. The Encyclopedia Judaica admits that Yahshua and the Apostles did not break nor teach the breaking of Yahweh's Laws. But Christianity has falsely translated their words to bring forth a savior who "did away with Yahweh's Laws."


The Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 5, page 509, tells us that there is NO VALID REASON FOR DOUBTING the HISTORICAL REALITY of Yahshua.

JESUS AND HIS FIRST DISCIPLES. As has been indicated before, the teaching and activity of Jesus cannot be properly described under the heading "Christianity."
There is no valid reason for doubting his historical reality or assuming him to be a purely mythical figure.

There is, however, great reason to doubt what the Christians say about Him. As we have read and proven so far, paganism, not the Laws of Yahweh, is the driving force of Christianity. The Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 5, page 511, admits this fact.

With its spread among the gentiles, the pagan characteristics of Christianity gained in influence, and after Constantine the Great and the adoption of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, the traditional Hellenistic-pagan forms of civic, social, and cultural anti-Semitism (see *Apion) merged with the specifically Christian theological motifs to form an amalgam that has left a tragic legacy to history.

In this tragic legacy to history left by Christianity, the most tragic has been the twisting of the Holy Scriptures to fit pagan doctrines, beliefs and philosophy; rather than allowing them to fit Yahweh's Laws and prophets, the way they were originally written. The Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 10, page 10, acknowledges that this is exactly what the church has done.

Both of the chief sources of the Synoptic Gospels, the old account, and the collection of Jesus' sayings, were produced in the primitive Christian congregation in Jerusalem, and were translated into Greek from Aramaic or Hebrew. They contained the picture of Jesus as seen by the disciples who knew him. The present Gospels are redactions of these two sources, which were often changed as a result of ecclesiastical tendentiousness.

Most shocking of all, the Roman Catholic Church herself admits to the forgery of the Holy Scriptures. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume 6, page 136, gives us this admission.

"Substitution of false documents and tampering with genuine ones was quite a trade in the Middle Ages. Innocent III (1198) points out nine species of forgery[of ecclesiastical records] which had come under his notice.
But such frauds of the Church were not confined to the Middle Ages; they begin even with the beginning of the Church and infest every period of its history for fifteen hundred years and defile nearly every document, both of "Scriptures" and of Church aggrandizement. As truly said by Collins, in his celebrated Discourse of Free Thinking:
"In Short, these frauds are very common in all books which are published by priests or priestly men... For it is certain they may plead the authority of the Fathers for Forgery, Corruption and mangling of Authors, with more reason than for any of their Articles of Faith.."(p.96.)

So by forging, altering, and changing the Holy Scriptures, including the inspired record of Yahshua's teachings, Christianity has brought forth a pagan God-savior and a way of life in complete opposition to Yahweh's Laws.


There is nothing recorded in Volume Two of the Holy Scriptures that ever quotes Yahshua as saying He was either an equal part of a trinity with Yahweh or that He pre-existed with Yahweh. On the contrary, everything Yahshua spoke showed He was in complete submission to His Heavenly Father Yahweh and to His Laws, as we all should be.

Yahshua taught the Law of Yahweh exclusively, and Yahweh's Law teaches that Yahweh is one and that we are to serve and worship Yahweh only.

Yahchanan Mark 12:28-30—
28 Then one of the scribes came, and listened to all their discussion, and had noted how well He answered. So he asked Him; What is the first commandment of all?
29 And Yahshua answered Him: The first of all the commandments is: Hear, O Israyl, Yahweh is our Father. Yahweh is one.
30 And you must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your might.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5—
4 Hear, O Israyl, Yahweh is our Father. Yahweh is one.
5 And you must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.

Mattithyah 4:10—
Then Yahshua said to her; You get away, Satan! For it is written: Yahweh your Father you must reverence, and Him only you must serve!

Deuteronomy 6:13—
Yahweh your Father you must reverence, and Him you must serve, and by His Name you must take your oaths.

Mattithyah 23:9—
And you must not pray to or worship any man on earth as a "Father," for you have only One Father, Who is in heaven.

Yahchanan 14:28—
You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Yahchanan 12:49-50—
49 For I have not spoken on My own; but the Father Who sent Me gave Me the Laws—what I should say and what I should speak.
50 And I know that His Laws are life everlasting; so whatever I speak, I am saying exactly what My Father has told Me to say.

Mattithyah 24:36—
But no man knows that day nor hour. No, not even the malakim in heaven, but My Father only.

Mattithyah 19:16-17—
16 And behold, one came to Him, and said; Teacher, what righteous thing may I do, so that I may have eternal life?
17 But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh .


The Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 12, page 1060, admits that the style of most of the writings in Volume Two of the Holy Scriptures is, in fact, Hebraic.

THE LANGUAGE OF THE NEW TESTAMENT.
Although the language of the New Testament, in the form that it exists today, is Greek, two earlier influences are still discernible.
(1) THE INFLUENCE OF THE ARAMAIC-HEBREW ORIGINAL.
Because most of the authors were Jewish Nazarenes, they spoke, for the most part, Aramaic, and some also mishnaic Hebrew. This influence, which was detectable particularly in the original versions of Mark and Matthew, survives to some degree in their extant Greek versions and in several of the Epistles as well, including James and Jude. The rest of the works were originally written in Greek.
(2) THE SEPTUAGINT.
Since this translation was used by many authors, the New Testament contains not only Aramaic words and phrases, which the disciples heard from Jesus and took care to remember out of reverence for their master (e.g. Talitha Kumi (Mark 5:41), Kum, Rabboni, Eli, Eli (Elohi, Elohi) lama sabachthani (Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:24)), but also expressions and phrases which retain their Hebrew flavor although they were transmitted through the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible.


Romans 1:20-25—
20 For since the creation of the world, the invisible things of Him are clearly seen—His eternal power and holiness—being understood by the things that are written; so that they are without excuse.
21 Because that, when they knew Yahweh, they did not glorify Him as Father, nor were thankful, but became idolatrous; Godworshipers (worshipers of elohim), in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools; simpletons,
23 And exchanged the glory of the uncorruptible Father for images, made to resemble corruptible man, and birds, four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
24 Therefore, Yahweh also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own minds, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who exchanged the truth of Yahweh for the Lie; Lords (Baalim), Gods, and Goddesses (Elohim), and worshiped and served the creation, rather than the creator, Who is blessed forever. Praise Yahweh! HalleluYahweh!


I Corinthians 10:20-22—
20 But I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to Yahweh; and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.
21 You cannot drink the cup of Yahweh and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of Yahweh's table and of the table of demons.
22 Do we provoke Yahweh to jealousy? are we stronger than He ?


II Corinthians 6:14-18—
14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with unright-eousness? and what fellowship does light have with darkness?
15 And what harmony can there be between Messiah and Belial; Worthlessness: Satan? Or what share does a believer have with an infidel; untrustworthy, not faithful, not true nor loyal?
16 And what agreement does The House of Yahweh have with Gods (elohim)? for we are The House of the living Father. As Yahweh has said: I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their Father, and they will be my people.
17 Therefore: come out from among them and be separate, says Yahweh. Do not touch the unclean thing, and I will receive you.
18 I will be a Father to you, and you will be My sons and daughters, says Yahweh Almighty.


II Corinthians 4:4—
For the god (el) of this world (Satan) has blinded the minds of those who do not believe, so that the light of the message of the glory of the Messiah, Who is the image of Yahweh, should not shine unto them.


Romans 6:15-16—
15 What? May we sin as though we are not under the Law, yet under Yahweh's undeserved pardon? by no means!
16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves as servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey—whether of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

I Yahchanan 3:7-9—
7 Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
8 He who commits sin is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of Yahweh was manifested; that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whoever is begotten of Yahweh does not commit sin; for His seed remains in Him; and it is possible for him not to sin, because he has been begotten of Yahweh.


I Yahchanan 5:18-21—
18 We know that whoever is born of Yahweh does not sin; but he who has been begotten of Yahweh keeps himself, and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we belong to Yahweh, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
20 And we know that the Son of Yahweh has come, and has given us an understanding, in order that we may know Him Who is true; and we are in Him Who is true, for we are in His Son, Yahshua. Yahweh is the true Father, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from the defilement of Gods (elohim).


Revelation 18:2-5—
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying: Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of demons, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 Gor all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Come out of her, My people, so that you do not partake in her sins, and so that you do not receive of her plagues,
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and Yahweh has remembered her iniquities!


SIN: is the Transgression of YHWHs Laws. 1 Yahchanan 3:4

I Yahchanan 3:4—
Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

http://yahweh.com/PWMags/DefaultPW12_2004.htm

Here is TRUTH

Isayah 59:1-2—
1 Behold, Yahweh's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; nor His ear heavy, that it cannot hear.
2 But your own iniquities have separated you from your Father; and your own sins have caused Him to hide His face from you, so He will not listen.


Please notice that iniquity and sin separate you from Yahweh, the Heavenly Father.

The Savior used the word iniquity in His instruction to us, warning us to beware of religious imposters who teach against Yahweh's Laws.


Mattithyah 7:15—

Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

The Savior is trying to make us aware of righteousness and evil.


Mattithyah 7:21-22—
21 Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher! will enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works?


Now remember, iniquity cuts one off from Yahweh (Isayah 59:1-2) so that He will not hear you. Notice the Savior's words in the next verse.

Mattithyah 7:23—
But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity; you who break the Law of Yahweh!

What is the meaning of this word iniquity? According to the Greek dictionary in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, the word iniquity is word #458 from word #459, and means transgression of the law, not subject to the law.

458. a*nomiva anomia, an-om-ee¢-ah; from 459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (gen.) wickedness:—iniquity, x transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

459. a!nomo" anomos, an¢-om-os; from 1 (as a neg. particle) and 3551; lawless, i.e. (neg.) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by impl. a Gentile), or (pos.) wicked;—without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.


The Savior Himself is saying that anyone who is not subject to the Laws of Yahweh is cut off from Yahweh and from the Savior also.


Mattithyah 7:23—
...Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity; you who break the Law of Yahweh!

The Savior said the same thing in the following scriptures.


Revelation 22:12-16—
12 And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be.
13 I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshippers of gods (elohim) and everyone who professes to love, yet practices breaking the Law.
16 I, Yahshua, have sent My malak to testify to you these things in the congregations of The House of Yahweh. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the Bright and Morning Star.


Please notice in the verses above that this is the Savior speaking; saying, "Blessed are those who keep, that is, do His, the Father's, Laws. They, only, will be given the gift of eternal life. All others are cast out." That's also exactly what the Savior said in Mattithyah 7:21-23, "Depart from Me you who break the Father's Laws."

The Prophet Isayah also said the same thing in:

Isayah 59:1-2—
1 Behold, Yahweh's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; nor His ear heavy, that it cannot hear.
2 But your own iniquities have separated you from your Father; and your own sins have caused Him to hide His face from you, so He will not listen.


If you are still tempted to follow some Christian, Moslem, Jewish or Catholic leader into believing that Yahweh's Laws have been done away with or can be rewritten to suit whoever, read the following inspired words of the prophets, apostles, and Savior.


I Yahchanan 3:4—
Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law.

I Yahchanan 2:4—

He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I Yahchanan 3:7-8—

7 Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
8 He who commits sin is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of Yahweh was manifested; that He might destroy the works of the devil.


Hebrews 10:26-27—
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.
27 But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.


Revelation 20:11-15—
11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him Who sat on it, from Whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before Yahweh. And the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is The Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and Death and Sheol; the grave, delivered up the dead which were in them. And they were judged, every man, according to their works.
14 And Death and Sheol were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whoever was not found written in The Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.



Remember, sin is the breaking of Yahweh's Laws.

[phildee3]

sin is the breaking of Yahweh's Laws.



So why ask me what sin is if you already have an answer? :rolleyes:

[kasalt]

truth hurts don't it

It is especially hurtful to those who oppose it.


Explain how the Apostle Shaul/Paul could declare himself to be a Pharisee and a Hebrew amongst Hebrews and possibly embrace any Hellenic/Paganic Doctrines.

Paul only claimed to be a Pharisee before his conversion (Philippians 3:4-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%203&version=KJV)). Paul rejected Pharisaism after his conversion (Philippians 3:7-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%203&version=KJV)). The Pharisees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia are represented today by Rabbinic Judaism, and I have already given you Rabbinic Judaism's opinion of Paul as found in the Jewish Encyclopedia (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=283&letter=S#964). I will quote again:
[Paul] was, if any of the Epistles that bear his name are really his, entirely a Hellenist in thought and sentiment...hence his strange belief in mysteries--a term borrowed solely from heathen rites.
That quote can be easily proved. I ran a search for the word "mystery" at BibleGateway.com, and here are the results:

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=myster&version1=9&searchtype=all&bookset=2&limit=bookset

The word occurs 25 times in the New Testament alone, but it does not occur even once in the Old Testament. So where did the idea of "mysteries" originate in New Testament thinking? Obviously, the idea of "mysteries" was borrowed from the Greco-Roman mystery religions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Roman_mysteries

One thing is for certain: The idea of religious "mysteries" did not originate within Old Testament thinking. As the Jewish Encyclopedia states, it is "a term borrowed solely from heathen rites".

The idea of mysteries is by no means the only example of Greek thought found in the New Testament; there are many others. Paul even quotes Plato (albeit without attribution)! For example, Plato wrote in Phaedrus (http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/phaedrus.html) that we only perceive reality as "seen through a glass dimly". Paul echoed Plato as follows: "We see through a glass, darkly" (1 Cor. 13:12). Additionally, in his Apology (http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/apology.html), Plato wrote that Socrates was deemed wise because he knew he knew nothing. Plato quoted Socrates as saying:
"I do not suppose that either of us knows anything really beautiful and good, but I am better off than he is - for he knows nothing, and thinks that he knows. I neither know nor think that I know."
Paul echoed that sentiment in his first letter to the Corinthians, where he wrote:
"If any man think that he knows any thing, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know." (1 Cor 8:2)Paul also quoted other pagan Greek philosopher-poets. For example, in Acts 17:28, Paul states, "For in Him we live and move and have our being." This is actually a quote from Epimenides - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia' Creatia. Paul quoted Epimenides again in Titus 1:12, in which he wrote, "One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, 'the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies'." Below is the actual passage of Epimenides' Creatia from which Paul derived those quotes:
They fashioned a tomb for thee [O Zeus], O holy and high one-
The Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies!
But thou art not dead: thou livest and abidest forever,
For in thee we live and move and have our being.
Again in Acts 17:28, Paul states, "Certain of your own poets have said, 'For we are also his offspring'." This is actually a quote from the opening lines of Aratus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia' Phaenomena (http://www.theoi.com/Text/AratusPhaenomena.html):
From Zeus let us begin; him do we mortals never leave unnamed;
full of Zeus are all the streets and all the market-places of men;
full is the sea and the havens thereof; always we all have need of Zeus.
For we are also his offspring...
In 1 Corinthians 15:33, Paul quoted Menander - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia when he stated, "Evil communications corrupt good manners".

All of which goes to prove that Paul was steeped in the literature--and therefore the thoughts and the language--of the Hellenists.

[1977]

Excellent post.

Hesiod (http://omacl.org/Hesiod/frag1.html), The Great Works, fragment 1: "If a man sow evil, he shall reap evil increase; if men do to him as he has done, it will be true justice."

Paul, Galatians 6:7-8: "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

phildee3;So why ask me what sin is if you already have an answer?

Because your Premise of 'gnosis of christianity' is untenable Biblicaly, Historicaly, and Scientificaly.

As I have already shown: Yahweh is the Creator Being, THE 'God' from Genesis to The Revelation of Yahweh...

And the Message of 'gnosis of christianity' is exactly the same as the Serpent in Yahwehs Garden, Eden. A Message of Deception.

For you to Honestly answer my queries would cause you, yourself, to refute your own Ideology reveal it to be a Fantasy.




kasalt;It is especially hurtful to those who oppose it.

And that is all you do consistently, oppose Truth. Answer my Queries; Honestly.

Paul only claimed to be a Pharisee before his conversion

He only rejected the Rabbinical Traditions, not Yahwehs Torah. I have provided overwhelming Proof of that.

Again: Did The Apostle Shaul Do Away With Yahweh's Law?
http://www.yahweh.com/Booklets/Shaul/DoAway.htm



All of which goes to prove that Paul was steeped in the literature--and therefore the thoughts and the language--of the Hellenists.

The Apostle Shaul/Paul was a Highly Educated and Sophisticated man who was well aware of the Hellenic/Paganic Schools of Thought, and he refuted them and pointed to Yahweh as the Only True Living Source of Power. Without the barest shadow of a doubt, Shaul was Torah Conscious and Torah Observant. Explain why Shaul 'Schooled' the Stoics and Epicureans at the Temple of the Unknown God in the Areopagus. You also fail to realise Shaul did not just write a Letter and deliver it himself. All the writings of the Renewed Covenant/nt except fot the Revelation of Yahweh.. were Corporate Documents with strict oversight from the Elders in Jerusalem.

From this Document:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat2.html

Question Four: Where there any public 'checks and balances' that would have hindered publication of these views(hellenic/paganic) by the early Christian community, even if a lone NT author would have accepted them?
.................................................. ................................................
This question is a fascinating one, and the data indicates a STRONG 'check and balance' environment This data falls into three categories: (1) indication that the NT documents are mostly group products; (2) indications of close interactions/associations among the authors; and (3) indications of relatively close apostolic oversight of the spread of the gospel content.

Indications that the NT documents are mostly GROUP products:
To state this in summary form is Ellis in GAG:46:
"Although the (synoptic) evangelists are probably identified correctly by the second-century sources, their individual role may be overstated there and indeed, with the possible exception of Luke, it is difficult to assess with any precision. In some of these sources, however, Matthew, Mark, and John are presented as arrangers of gospel traditions whose work, in the case of Mark and John, is then ratified by others. That is, they are participants in a corporate enterprise"


Another more important piece on the epistles is the use of a "co-sender" which would have had considerable impact on the content. For example, we have these in I Cor 1.1 (Sosthenes); 2 Cor 1.1 (Timothy ); Gal 1.2 ("all the brothers with me"); Phil 1.1 (Timothy). So, PLW:
"Such contemporary data suggests that the mention of those associated with Paul in the address should be explained in terms of the letter; that is, he selected them to play a role in the creation of the epistle as coauthors. It seems obvious that the recipients of such letters would have taken the 'we' at face value as referring to the senders." (p. 19)
"How did coauthorship work in practice? In light of what Pliny the Younger has said about his working habits (Letters 9.36)..., we might reasonably assume that, whereas Pliny communed with himself, Paul consulted his companions and, as the lead, did the actual dictation. Within this broad framework, however, circumstances influenced the exact procedure in each letter...At the time of the composition of 1 and 2 Thessalonians, Paul was still a neophyte both as a leader and a writer. The committee of three (note: Paul, Silas, Timothy) produced the letters, and Paul kept his personal comments to the minimum. As the one dictating, however, he could interject without difficulty...The circumstances of 1 Corinthians were different." (p. 33)

This, plus the: 'Was Shaul a Middle-Platonists totaly refutes your Position. Read it and weep. Your Lamentations are music to my ears.

lol

Questions on Paul, Jesus, and Middle Platonism

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/muddleplatonismx1.html

In the case of Paul, the "corporate" nature of his letters extends to his mission as well. So Gamble, BREC:99:
"It was Paul's custom to name others together with himself as cosenders of his letters. This was probably not a formality but a reflection of the involvement of his associates in the conception, if not in the composition, of many of the letters. The evidence strongly suggests that Paul's missionary enterprise had a corporate structure and a school dimension..."
This stream of data strongly suggests that "the same apostolic circles were involved in the formation and/or transmission of both gospel and epistolary traditions" (E. Earle Ellis, in GAG:52). The fact that the NT literature was a group-effort or collaborative in nature would have acted as a significant barrier to the individual writers "smuggling in" pagan and/or foreign images of Jesus.
Indications of close interactions/associations among the authors:

It is quite easy to demonstrate that the various writers/sources of NT documents were in constant communication and collaborative work. Some of the data are as follows:

The letters of James, I Peter, and the Pauline letters were written by apostles who--according to Paul and his sometime companion Luke--worked together. The data is extensive: Gal 1.18; 2.1, 9; I cor 3.22-4.1; 9.5; 11.16, 23ff; 14.33ff; 15.3-7; Rom 15.25; Acts 11.29f; 12.25; 15.6-35; 21.17f; cf. 2 Pet 3.15f; Jude 17f with I Tim 4.1).
The letters and the Book of Acts connect their authors with the synoptic authors:
Peter and Paul with Mark (Col 4.10f;2 Tim 4.11; Phlm 24; I Pet 5.13; Acts 12.12-25; 13.5, 13; 15.37ff).
Paul and James with Luke (Paul: Col 4.14; 2 Tim 4.11; Phlm 24; Acts 16.10-17; 20.5-21.17; 27.1-28.16 ["we"]; James: Acts 21.17f ["we"]).
Acts puts James and Matthew together in Jerusalem (Acts 1.13f with 12.12-17, 25)



The epistles reveal that Paul and Peter and James know a number of synoptic traditions [GAG:44]
Paul: I Cor 7.10; 9.14 (I tim 5.18); I Cor 11.23; 15.3; cf. Col2.8; see GP:II:345-375 for a substantial list of Pauline overlaps with the Synoptic Apocalypse.
Peter: I Pet 1.10ff (Luke 10.24=Matt 13.17); 2.7 (Mark 12:10); 2.12 (Matt 5.16); 4.13f (Matt 5.11f=Luke 6.22f).
James shows special affinities to Matthew: 1:5,6, 22f; 2:5, 13; 4.10; 5.12.
Peter was apparently the source of much information for Paul--Gal 1.18.
The NT writers were in constant communication and collaboration with each other, and demonstrate this in their writings. It would have been difficult if not impossible for one of this group to have held to foreign, pagan notions without it becoming widely known. We even know of disagreements within the early church, and that they are surfaced quite visibly(!)--such as Peter vs. Paul in Galatians and the circumcision issue in Acts 14-15. All the indications along these lines are well within Jewish-Christian thought, and foreign notions do not start to show up until after the NT era at the earliest.

Indications of relatively close apostolic oversight of the spread of the gospel content:
The early church had a center (Jerusalem) and leaders (apostles).
When the church expanded into Samaria, there was interaction with the leaders of the founding church (Acts 8.14): "When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them". [By all accounts, Peter and John would have been closest to ANY information about Jesus' acts/words.]
When the church expanded into Antioch, we see the same pattern occur (Act 11:22): "News of this reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch."
When the issue of circumcision came up, the church in Antioch appointed Paul and Barnabas "to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders about this question" (Acts 15.2)
The first church council was held at Jerusalem (Act 15:23-29)
The reference in Acts 15:24--"We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you..."--is a STRONG indication of a 'sense of control'!
...as is 16.6: "As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey. .
Paul accepted the importance of the Jerusalem center (Gal 2.1-2): "Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain."
Davids points out how significant this was [GP:I:87f]:
"Confirmation of the picture in Acts comes from the fact that even Paul felt the power and authority of the Jerusalem church and the apostles. While Paul insists that his legitimacy as an apostle comes directly from Christ, he still reports that he found it necessary to go to Jerusalem at least twice and on one occasion to seek formal approval of his gospel from the apostles (Gal. 2.1-10). This would be most astounding if Paul did not feel that the apostles had at least some type of authority over the content of the tradition. Thus although Paul refuses to become dependent upon Jerusalem, he has the highest respect for the role of the community as a stronghold of pure doctrine and tradition".
At Jrs. Paul was welcomed and sent to the Gentiles (Gal 2.9f): "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do."
Paul (a native of Tarsus!) returned to Jerusalem after EACH missionary journey.
Even Peter is subject to the apostles as a group (Acts 8.4).
The leading apostles and evangelists had traveling ministries, bringing them into contact with churches and believers everywhere.
The early churches did NOT live in a vacuum. They corresponded with each other (cf. I Clement, a letter from Rome to Corinth, a.d. 95, see ATNT:48-49) and exchanged NT documents (cf. Col. 4.16).
Bauckham summarizes the authority succinctly [BAFCSPS:450]:
"The Jerusalem council presupposes the authority of Jerusalem to decide the issue of Gentile Christians' obedience to the Law (Acts 15). Its decision binds not only Antioch and its daughter churches (15.22-31) but also the churches founded by Paul and Barnabas (16.4). When James recalls the decision in 21.25, the effect is to imply that Paul's Gentile mission is still subject to it."
This controlling group of apostles and elders would have been a serious 'check and balance' against any foreign notions, held by any individual or minority.


The "Net" of this is clear: there were CONSIDERABLE 'checks and balances' in place during this early period, which would have prohibited the introduction of individual foreign elements into the content of the NT. The NT literature was generally a group-product, the authors were in frequent communication/co-work with each other, and the original apostolic community oversaw the development and transmission of the gospel content. Even novel elements that could be produced by the pneumatic and prophetic ministries of the Spirit were to be 'judged' by the core content and authoritative followers of Jesus (cf. I Cor 14.29; I Thess 5.19-21; I John 4.1-3).
.................................................. ................................................
Question Five: What does the literature they produced, and/or post-Easter history tell us about the views they accepted?
.................................................. ................................................

In the case of Matthew, the issue of post-Easter history is easy--we have very, very little information about him. By far and away the most consistent data we have has to do with his authorship of the Gospel! Early tradition is unanimous in stating that Matthew wrote his gospel in Hebrewa and for Hebrews. Wenham discusses these witnesses in RMML, chapter 5 (i.e. Papias, Irenaeus, Pantaenus, Origen, Eusibius, Epiphanius, Cyril of Jerusalem, Jerome, Gregory of Nazianzus, Chrysostom, Augustine, et. al.!).

The issue of literature is a bit more straightforward:

It is widely agreed (as well as obvious to the most casual reader!) that Matthew is the most "Jewish" of the gospels (see NT Wright's discussion in NTPG:384ff, and standard commentaries).
We have seen already in Part A of this study that pagan elements do not manifest themselves in Matthew's portrayal of Christ.
It would have been evangelistic 'suicide' to have appealed to the Jewish population in 1st century Roman-occupied Palestine on behalf of a Jesus colored by pagan associations (transmitted by gentile merchants or slaves) or the imperial cult (transmitted by Roman soldiers or the oppressive Hellenistic/Roman elite)!!!
The very argumentation content and methods of Matthew reflect the basic milieu of the Jewish community--not the argument forms of pagan theologies .
Matthew's argument for the Messianic status of Jesus is NOT from his 'divine powers', but from His fulfillment of OT scriptures--the opposite approach of pagan deities.
Jesus appears in a number of non-Jewish or Hellenistic cities (e.g. Phoenicia, Decapolis, Caesarea Philippi), but there is NO hint that Matthew (or Jesus) tries to 'relate' to the pagan theological figures/concepts that were present in those areas. This would have been the perfect setting for Matthew to "smuggle" those associations into the narrative.
Likewise, the visit of the pagan Magi in Matthew 2.1-12 would have been a great place to insert something about Persian and/or Iranian legends, but he didn't.

In short, not only do we have no indication of pagan notions in Matthew, but the ABSENCE of such notions in places in the text which would have been perfect places to insert those notions counts heavily against his carrying these in his belief system.
.................................................. ..............................
Conclusion
.................................................. ..............................

We have seen that:

Matthew had minimal contact with outside religions.
Matthew had minimal forces on him to adopt such outside religious ideas.
Matthew had non-trivial forces upon him to avoid adopting outside religious ideas.
Production of the NT literature (including Matthew's gospel) would have been largely a group effort, in constant review/feedback with apostolic figures, and under the authority of the 'keepers of the tradition' in Jerusalem.
The very character of Matthew's literary production demonstrates a strong argument that he did not maintain foreign religious ideas.
We have seen in Part A that Matthew's portrait of Jesus is unique, and not a mere copy of pagan religious motifs; in this study we can understand part of why that was the case.


1977;Excellent post.

Not surprising a 'christian gnosticist would consider a Failed Post an excellent Post. lol


[B]READ THIS:

http://www.thirdmill.org/paul/areopagus.asp/category/life

Pagan Poets and Biblical Parallels

Contra Schweizer and Conzelmann, when Paul builds his apologetic bridge, he does not allow any concession to Hellenistic paganism. Rather, as Bruce observes, his doctrine of God is wrapped in the "very language of biblical revelation." (Bruce, 240) Paul's doctrine of man, which includes citation of the two pagan poets, teaches that mankind is the offspring of the Christian God. As Bruce explains, the context of the statement (Paul's audience) is absolutely essential for grasping Paul's use of the quotation:

It is not suggested that even the Paul of Acts ... envisaged God in terms of the Zeus of Stoic pantheism, but if men whom his hearers recognized as authorities had used language which could corroborate his argument, he would quote their words, giving the a biblical sense as he did so. (emphasis added, Bruce, 240)
Because men are made in the image of God, Paul could appeal to their sensus divinitatus (sense of the divine) in the dialogue with them. As Alister McGrath observes this sense of divinity is a "powerful apologetic devise that enables Paul to base himself on acceptable Greek theistic assumptions while at the some time going beyond them." (McGrath, 1993, 28) Even after the Fall, though obscured and darkened, there is a vestige of the image of God left in man, and indelible mark of the Creator that still remains. Precisely because of this, he is able to perceive some truth, albeit at a very rudimentary level. In this vein Cornelius Van Til has written that the pagan poets taught what is correct, despite the fact that their system of thought and belief was not in accord with revealed truth. (Van Til)


Natural Revelation: Tensions with Romans 1

A cursory reading reveals some ostensible disparity between Paul's view of natural revelation in Acts 17 and his view of the subject in Romans. Paul seemingly gives more credence to the concept in Acts 17 than in Romans 1, where the emphasis is placed on the inability of the pagan to respond to revelation. Again, context is crucial.

First, Carson, Moo, and Morris explain that there in nothing in the theology of Roman 1 that would preclude Paul from trying to establish common ground with his pagan hearers. (Stonehouse, 24) Stonehouse argues that in Paul's instruction in Romans 1 and 2, revelation comes in two forms: creation and the constitution of man. With this in mind, Romans is complementary to Mars Hill. (Stonehouse, 24)

Second, Bruce notes that the "letter was written to Christians while the speech was delivered to pagans." (Bruce, 244) The reader must bear in mind that Paul's speech in Acts 17 should probably be viewed more as pre-evangelism than evangelism per se. (Carson, et al., Bruce, 245) Karl O. Sandnes suggests that the speech is insinuatio, employing this rhetorical technique to make an indirect appeal for the purpose of introducing the Gospel, rather that propositio . Sandnes observes that "the intention of the this strategy was to promote curiosity and elicit questions." (Sandnes, 1993, 25)

Better get reading! Saddle Up!!


Kind Regards

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Ladies & Gentlemen; Felicitous Salutations:

More then 1 year + A Grace Period has passed since I first challenged kasalt & phildee to answer six simple queries. They have not.

Instead they mince out to the Dance Floor emptyhanded, emptyheaded and perform The Empty Pocket Polka in a most inept manner.

Time to 'Pony Up'; answer the Queries.

1: So answer these queries: How do you Biblically define Righteous/ness; Sin; Iniquity?

2: Why does Yahshua Messiah and ALL His Apostles constantly; throughout the entire New Testament: Cite and Quote Directly from the Tanakh/Old Testament, the words of Yahweh, and Yahwehs Patriarchs and Prophets and tell everybody to Heed Them?

3: Do you deny that Yahshua HaMessiah and His Apostles were Torah Conscious and Observant Jews? If so, explain

4: Do you deny they went to the Synagogues on Yahwehs Sabbath and read from the Tanach? If so, explain.

5: Do you deny that they taught all Humans, Jews and Gentiles about Torah Consciousness and Torah Observation. If so, explain.

Bonus Query #6: You say the Patriarchs and Prophets of Yahweh are deceived; How So?

The Conclusion I have reached after exercising Due Diligence by surveying Broad Spectrums of Data Relevant to the Topic at Hand, gnosis of christianity is: Ludicrous; Deceitful and Counterproductive.

Agree or Disagree? If so, explain.


Ludicrous: It's number one Core Doctrine is: Yahweh is not the'god' of the 'new testament'. I, personally cannot think of anyother premise that is more preposterous. The Subject of every Verse of Scripture from Bereshith/genesis to Revelation is Yahweh. And ALL the Prophets only prophecied of Yahshua Messiah.

The entirety of Scripture was written by men Inspired by Yahweh, thus all Scripture is: D.R.T.R. Data Resistant To Reinterpretation. It is all interlocked and bolsters and supports itself. There is Corporate Solidarity and Univocity.

To say Yahweh is not the 'god of the 'new testament' is a gossamer assertion that does not have one Verse of Yahwehs Scripture to support it.

This is Hubris of unequaled proportions; a pissant mortal human 'thinks' they can remove Yahweh from Scripture He was the Inspiration for.


So gnosis of christianity has no Foundation to build upon. Just assertion.

Their Core Message is the Exact Same as the Serpent told Mother Eve, in Yahwehs Garden; Eden:

1:Yahweh is a Liar

2: Yahweh is not a Benevolent and Loving Father to His Creation; Humankind.

http://www.raystedman.org/genesis/0314.html

THE ENTICEMENT OF EVIL
by Ray C. Stedman

http://www.mashiyach.com/hebrew.htm



Kind Regards

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

phil, kasalt, '77: you know that to answer my Queries Honestly reveals 'gnosis of christianity' to be a FANTASY, this is why more then a year has passed with no replys.

I got lots more. lol

[phildee3]

phil, kasalt, '77: you know that to answer my Queries Honestly reveals 'gnosis of christianity' to be a FANTASY,



Yeh, well it's your phrase - your invention.

I've never used it.

I still don't understand Q.1.

The dictionary definition of sin is:
"A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate."

So for a Yahwist, such as yourself, it's a sin to violate one of Yahweh's laws
(eg. to kindle fire on the Sabbath).

But Yahweh is not my god, so I do not sin when I do that.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

phil, I am going to have to put a Bib on you!! lol

Biblically means defining the word as it is used in context in Scripture, like the example I provided from 1 Yahchanan 3:4

Specifically Sin: is defined as Transgression of YHWHs Laws.

Like I said, it requires Honesty. :rolleyes:

[phildee3]

Biblically means defining the word as it is used in context in Scripture, like the example I provided from 1 Yahchanan 3:4


Specifically Sin: is defined as Transgression of YHWHs Laws.



Maybe in the Jewish (OT) scriptures,
but not in I John (aka "Yahchanan").

John equates "sin" with "lawlessness" (anomia), in your example,
and since the law of the new covenant is to love one another (no more, no less), a Christian sins when s/he fails to do that.

A Yahwist sins when s/he violates one of Yahweh's laws.


So biblically (since I John is a book in the Bible), - "sin" is defined as lawlessness.

[kasalt]

Excellent post.

Thank you, '77! It took me quite a while to put that one together.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Thank you, '77! It took me quite a while to put that one together.

lol

what you do not understand is Typology.

You do not understand the Terms: Corporate Solidarity and Univocity

You do not understand The Principle of First Mention or PARDES

You do not understand the Concept of: Checks & Balances

ERGO: It is impossible for the Apostle Shaul to Transmit Paganic Doctrine.

You have mis-understood Shaul 'couching' his Biblical Revelatory Data in 'Paganic Motifs' as Shaul endorsing Paganic Doctrine.

What impressed the Pagans was Shauls Revelation of Yahwehs True Glory and Power, which was more impressive, beautiful than their Paganic Doctrines of the lifeless gods the Pagans served.

Pagan Poets and Biblical Parallels

Contra Schweizer and Conzelmann, when Paul builds his apologetic bridge, he does not allow any concession to Hellenistic paganism. Rather, as Bruce observes, his doctrine of God is wrapped in the "very language of biblical revelation." (Bruce, 240) Paul's doctrine of man, which includes citation of the two pagan poets, teaches that mankind is the offspring of the Christian God. As Bruce explains, the context of the statement (Paul's audience) is absolutely essential for grasping Paul's use of the quotation:

It is not suggested that even the Paul of Acts ... envisaged God in terms of the Zeus of Stoic pantheism, but if men whom his hearers recognized as authorities had used language which could corroborate his argument, he would quote their words, giving the a biblical sense as he did so. (emphasis added, Bruce, 240)
Because men are made in the image of God, Paul could appeal to their sensus divinitatus (sense of the divine) in the dialogue with them. As Alister McGrath observes this sense of divinity is a "powerful apologetic devise that enables Paul to base himself on acceptable Greek theistic assumptions while at the some time going beyond them." (McGrath, 1993, 28) Even after the Fall, though obscured and darkened, there is a vestige of the image of God left in man, and indelible mark of the Creator that still remains. Precisely because of this, he is able to perceive some truth, albeit at a very rudimentary level. In this vein Cornelius Van Til has written that the pagan poets taught what is correct, despite the fact that their system of thought and belief was not in accord with revealed truth. (Van Til)

Second, Bruce notes that the "letter was written to Christians while the speech was delivered to pagans." (Bruce, 244) The reader must bear in mind that Paul's speech in Acts 17 should probably be viewed more as pre-evangelism than evangelism per se. (Carson, et al., Bruce, 245) Karl O. Sandnes suggests that the speech is insinuatio, employing this rhetorical technique to make an indirect appeal for the purpose of introducing the Gospel, rather that propositio . Sandnes observes that "the intention of the this strategy was to promote curiosity and elicit questions." (Sandnes, 1993, 25)

Conclusion: Engaging the Zeitgeist back to top

We have seen, then that Paul was able to establish common ground and points of contact with Greek culture and intelligentsia while still remaining on uniquely Christian ground. With a rich cultural background himself, Paul could exploit the pagan culture, reclaiming it for the true sovereign of the universe. the dichotomy between Hellenistic and Biblical parallels is false. There is a third option: contextualization without accommodation. (See Charles, Trinity Journal, 1995, 16; Pratt, 199)

Did you see that? 'Couching' Biblical Revelation in terms Pagans can understand.

Notice the Checks & Balances in Jerusalem by the Elders of the Congregation.


This question is a fascinating one, and the data indicates a STRONG 'check and balance' environment This data falls into three categories: (1) indication that the NT documents are mostly group products; (2) indications of close interactions/associations among the authors; and (3) indications of relatively close apostolic oversight of the spread of the gospel content.

Indications that the NT documents are mostly GROUP products:
To state this in summary form is Ellis in GAG:46:


The letters of the NT consistently manifest group-construction data. The usage of amanuenses (dictation scribes) is well attested: Rom 16.22; I Cor 16.21; Col 4.18; 2 Thess 3.17; Phlm 19. These co-writers often influenced the wording, which in the case of the gifted individuals used by Paul, would be expected.
Another more important piece on the epistles is the use of a "co-sender" which would have had considerable impact on the content. For example, we have these in I Cor 1.1 (Sosthenes); 2 Cor 1.1 (Timothy ); Gal 1.2 ("all the brothers with me"); Phil 1.1 (Timothy). So, PLW:
"Such contemporary data suggests that the mention of those associated with Paul in the address should be explained in terms of the letter; that is, he selected them to play a role in the creation of the epistle as coauthors. It seems obvious that the recipients of such letters would have taken the 'we' at face value as referring to the senders." (p. 19)
"How did coauthorship work in practice? In light of what Pliny the Younger has said about his working habits (Letters 9.36)..., we might reasonably assume that, whereas Pliny communed with himself, Paul consulted his companions and, as the lead, did the actual dictation. Within this broad framework, however, circumstances influenced the exact procedure in each letter...At the time of the composition of 1 and 2 Thessalonians, Paul was still a neophyte both as a leader and a writer. The committee of three (note: Paul, Silas, Timothy) produced the letters, and Paul kept his personal comments to the minimum. As the one dictating, however, he could interject without difficulty...The circumstances of 1 Corinthians were different." (p. 33)

In the case of Paul, the "corporate" nature of his letters extends to his mission as well. So Gamble, BREC:99:
"It was Paul's custom to name others together with himself as cosenders of his letters. This was probably not a formality but a reflection of the involvement of his associates in the conception, if not in the composition, of many of the letters. The evidence strongly suggests that Paul's missionary enterprise had a corporate structure and a school dimension..."
This stream of data strongly suggests that "the same apostolic circles were involved in the formation and/or transmission of both gospel and epistolary traditions" (E. Earle Ellis, in GAG:52). The fact that the NT literature was a group-effort or collaborative in nature would have acted as a significant barrier to the individual writers "smuggling in" pagan and/or foreign images of Jesus.
Indications of close interactions/associations among the authors:

It is quite easy to demonstrate that the various writers/sources of NT documents were in constant communication and collaborative work. Some of the data are as follows:

The letters of James, I Peter, and the Pauline letters were written by apostles who--according to Paul and his sometime companion Luke--worked together. The data is extensive: Gal 1.18; 2.1, 9; I cor 3.22-4.1; 9.5; 11.16, 23ff; 14.33ff; 15.3-7; Rom 15.25; Acts 11.29f; 12.25; 15.6-35; 21.17f; cf. 2 Pet 3.15f; Jude 17f with I Tim 4.1).
The letters and the Book of Acts connect their authors with the synoptic authors:
Peter and Paul with Mark (Col 4.10f;2 Tim 4.11; Phlm 24; I Pet 5.13; Acts 12.12-25; 13.5, 13; 15.37ff).
Paul and James with Luke (Paul: Col 4.14; 2 Tim 4.11; Phlm 24; Acts 16.10-17; 20.5-21.17; 27.1-28.16 ["we"]; James: Acts 21.17f ["we"]).
Acts puts James and Matthew together in Jerusalem (Acts 1.13f with 12.12-17, 25)

HERE"S THE BOTTOMLINE WHICH REFUTES THE PROPOSITION OF A PAGANIC APOSTLE SHAUL

The NT writers were in constant communication and collaboration with each other, and demonstrate this in their writings. It would have been difficult if not impossible for one of this group to have held to foreign, pagan notions without it becoming widely known. We even know of disagreements within the early church, and that they are surfaced quite visibly(!)--such as Peter vs. Paul in Galatians and the circumcision issue in Acts 14-15. All the indications along these lines are well within Jewish-Christian thought, and foreign notions do not start to show up until after the NT era at the earliest.

[B]Indications of relatively close apostolic oversight of the spread of the gospel content:
The early church had a center (Jerusalem) and leaders (apostles).
When the church expanded into Samaria, there was interaction with the leaders of the founding church (Acts 8.14): "When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them".
When the church expanded into Antioch, we see the same pattern occur (Act 11:22): "News of this reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch."
When the issue of circumcision came up, the church in Antioch appointed Paul and Barnabas "to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders about this question" (Acts 15.2)
The first church council was held at Jerusalem (Act 15:23-29)
The reference in Acts 15:24--"We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you..."--is a STRONG indication of a 'sense of control'!
...as is 16.6: "As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey. .
Paul accepted the importance of the Jerusalem center (Gal 2.1-2): "Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain."
Davids points out how significant this was [GP:I:87f]:
"Confirmation of the picture in Acts comes from the fact that even Paul felt the power and authority of the Jerusalem church and the apostles. While Paul insists that his legitimacy as an apostle comes directly from Christ, he still reports that he found it necessary to go to Jerusalem at least twice and on one occasion to seek formal approval of his gospel from the apostles (Gal. 2.1-10). This would be most astounding if Paul did not feel that the apostles had at least some type of authority over the content of the tradition. Thus although Paul refuses to become dependent upon Jerusalem, he has the highest respect for the role of the community as a stronghold of pure doctrine and tradition".
At Jrs. Paul was welcomed and sent to the Gentiles (Gal 2.9f): "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do."
Paul (a native of Tarsus!) returned to Jerusalem after EACH missionary journey.
Even Peter is subject to the apostles as a group (Acts 8.4).
The leading apostles and evangelists had traveling ministries, bringing them into contact with churches and believers everywhere.
The early churches did NOT live in a vacuum. They corresponded with each other (cf. I Clement, a letter from Rome to Corinth, a.d. 95, see ATNT:48-49) and exchanged NT documents (cf. Col. 4.16).
Bauckham summarizes the authority succinctly :
[B]"The Jerusalem council presupposes the authority of Jerusalem to decide the issue of Gentile Christians' obedience to the Law (Acts 15). Its decision binds not only Antioch and its daughter churches (15.22-31) but also the churches founded by Paul and Barnabas (16.4). When James recalls the decision in 21.25, the effect is to imply that Paul's Gentile mission is still subject to it."
This controlling group of apostles and elders would have been a serious 'check and balance' against any foreign notions, held by any individual or minority.

The "Net" of this is clear: there were CONSIDERABLE 'checks and balances' in place during this early period, which would have prohibited the introduction of individual foreign elements into the content of the NT. The NT literature was generally a group-product, the authors were in frequent communication/co-work with each other, and the original apostolic community oversaw the development and transmission of the gospel content. Even novel elements that could be produced by the pneumatic and prophetic ministries of the Spirit were to be 'judged' by the core content and authoritative followers of Jesus (cf. I Cor 14.29; I Thess 5.19-21; I John 4.1-3).
.................................................. ................................................
Question Five: What does the literature they produced, and/or post-Easter history tell us about the views they accepted?
.................................................. ................................................

In the case of Matthew, the issue of post-Easter history is easy--we have very, very little information about him. By far and away the most consistent data we have has to do with his authorship of the Gospel! Early tradition is unanimous in stating that Matthew wrote his gospel in Hebrewa and for Hebrews. Wenham discusses these witnesses in RMML, chapter 5 (i.e. Papias, Irenaeus, Pantaenus, Origen, Eusibius, Epiphanius, Cyril of Jerusalem, Jerome, Gregory of Nazianzus, Chrysostom, Augustine, et. al.!).

The issue of literature is a bit more straightforward:

It is widely agreed (as well as obvious to the most casual reader!) that Matthew is the most "Jewish" of the gospels (see NT Wright's discussion in NTPG:384ff, and standard commentaries).
We have seen already in Part A of this study that pagan elements do not manifest themselves in Matthew's portrayal of Christ.
It would have been evangelistic 'suicide' to have appealed to the Jewish population in 1st century Roman-occupied Palestine on behalf of a Jesus colored by pagan associations (transmitted by gentile merchants or slaves) or the imperial cult (transmitted by Roman soldiers or the oppressive Hellenistic/Roman elite)!!!
The very argumentation content and methods of Matthew reflect the basic milieu of the Jewish community--not the argument forms of pagan theologies [BEAP:140-152].
Matthew's argument for the Messianic status of Jesus is NOT from his 'divine powers', but from His fulfillment of OT scriptures--the opposite approach of pagan deities.
Jesus appears in a number of non-Jewish or Hellenistic cities (e.g. Phoenicia, Decapolis, Caesarea Philippi), but there is NO hint that Matthew (or Jesus) tries to 'relate' to the pagan theological figures/concepts that were present in those areas. This would have been the perfect setting for Matthew to "smuggle" those associations into the narrative.
Likewise, the visit of the pagan Magi in Matthew 2.1-12 would have been a great place to insert something about Persian and/or Iranian legends, but he didn't.

The Apostle Shaul was a Torah Conscious and Observant Servant of Abba Yahweh and Yahshua haMessiah

http://www.yahweh.com/Booklets/Shaul/DoAway.htm

You cannot successfully separate Yahshua haMessiah or any of Yahshua handpicked Disciples from Yahweh.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

So for a Yahwist, such as yourself, it's a sin to violate one of Yahweh's laws
(eg. to kindle fire on the Sabbath).

But Yahweh is not my god, so I do not sin when I do that.

phil, for any human on Earth to violate one of Yahwehs Laws is a Transgression, a Sin. This is why certain deceptions impede Humanitys understanding. The renewed Covenant is Yahwehs Book. Yahshua haMessiah and His Handpicked Disciples are all Torah Conscious and Torah Observant Servants of Yahweh, Teaching Torah.

To say otherwise is deception, achieved only by twisting and perverting Scripture.

The big lie is that Torah has been done away with.

That is a Lie.

http://www.yahweh.com/PWMags/PW12-04/search.htm


On the contrary, everything Yahshua spoke showed He was in complete submission to His Heavenly Father Yahweh and to His Laws, as we all should be.

Yahshua taught the Law of Yahweh exclusively, and Yahweh's Law teaches that Yahweh is one and that we are to serve and worship Yahweh only.

Yahchanan Mark 12:28-30—
28 Then one of the scribes came, and listened to all their discussion, and had noted how well He answered. So he asked Him; What is the first commandment of all?
29 And Yahshua answered Him: The first of all the commandments is: Hear, O Israyl, Yahweh is our Father. Yahweh is one.
30 And you must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your might.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5—
4 Hear, O Israyl, Yahweh is our Father. Yahweh is one.
5 And you must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.

Mattithyah 4:10—
Then Yahshua said to her; You get away, Satan! For it is written: Yahweh your Father you must reverence, and Him only you must serve!

Deuteronomy 6:13—
Yahweh your Father you must reverence, and Him you must serve, and by His Name you must take your oaths.

Mattithyah 23:9—
And you must not pray to or worship any man on earth as a "Father," for you have only One Father, Who is in heaven.

Yahchanan 14:28—
You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Yahchanan 12:49-50—
49 For I have not spoken on My own; but the Father Who sent Me gave Me the Laws—what I should say and what I should speak.
50 And I know that His Laws are life everlasting; so whatever I speak, I am saying exactly what My Father has told Me to say.

Mattithyah 24:36—
But no man knows that day nor hour. No, not even the malakim in heaven, but My Father only.

Mattithyah 19:16-17—
16 And behold, one came to Him, and said; Teacher, what righteous thing may I do, so that I may have eternal life?
17 But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh .

The apostles taught that Yahshua was a mortal man, not a pre-existent God-savior. They taught that He was tempted like all men are tempted.

Hebrews 4:15—
For we do not have a High Priest Who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all ways tempted as we are—yet was without sin.

They also taught that Yahweh, however, cannot be tempted.

Yaaqob 1:13—
Let no one say when he is tempted: I am tempted by Yahweh; for Yahweh cannot be tempted with evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

The apostles also taught that Yahshua died.

Yahchanan Mark 15:37—
Then Yahshua cried with a loud voice, and died.

The apostles also taught that Yahweh raised Yahshua from the dead.

Acts 2:32—
This Yahshua, has Yahweh raised up, and of this we are all witnesses!

It is a Scriptural fact that Yahweh is immortal, that He cannot die. So if Yahweh and Yahshua are the same being (as Christianity teaches) how could one die and the other live to raise the one who died? This simply makes no sense, but neither does any Christian doctrine. Notice what the Apostle Shaul wrote, speaking of Yahweh.

I Timothy 6:16—
Who alone has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; Whom no man has seen, nor can see; to Whom belongs honor and power everlasting. HalleluYahweh! Praise Yahweh!

In this verse, we also read that no man has ever seen Yahweh, yet Yahshua most definitely was seen.

phil, that Law about Lighting a Fire on the Sabbath refers to not letting any circumstance incite you to Anger, and maybe that discipline you learn will spread to other days of the week also.

not what you thought it was, is it? :rolleyes:


It should now be obvious to anyone that the apostles, as well as the prophets, did not believe in or teach a pre-existent God-savior. The apostles clearly taught against pagan Godworship, the same worship all Christianity teaches today.

Romans 1:20-25—
20 For since the creation of the world, the invisible things of Him are clearly seen—His eternal power and holiness—being understood by the things that are written; so that they are without excuse.
21 Because that, when they knew Yahweh, they did not glorify Him as Father, nor were thankful, but became idolatrous; Godworshipers (worshipers of elohim), in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools; simpletons,
23 And exchanged the glory of the uncorruptible Father for images, made to resemble corruptible man, and birds, four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
24 Therefore, Yahweh also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own minds, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who exchanged the truth of Yahweh for the Lie; Lords (Baalim), Gods, and Goddesses (Elohim), and worshiped and served the creation, rather than the creator, Who is blessed forever. Praise Yahweh! HalleluYahweh!


I Corinthians 10:20-22—
20 But I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to Yahweh; and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.
21 You cannot drink the cup of Yahweh and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of Yahweh's table and of the table of demons.
22 Do we provoke Yahweh to jealousy? are we stronger than He ?


II Corinthians 6:14-18—
14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with unright-eousness? and what fellowship does light have with darkness?
15 And what harmony can there be between Messiah and Belial; Worthlessness: Satan? Or what share does a believer have with an infidel; untrustworthy, not faithful, not true nor loyal?
16 And what agreement does The House of Yahweh have with Gods (elohim)? for we are The House of the living Father. As Yahweh has said: I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their Father, and they will be my people.
17 Therefore: come out from among them and be separate, says Yahweh. Do not touch the unclean thing, and I will receive you.
18 I will be a Father to you, and you will be My sons and daughters, says Yahweh Almighty.


II Corinthians 4:4—
For the god (el) of this world (Satan) has blinded the minds of those who do not believe, so that the light of the message of the glory of the Messiah, Who is the image of Yahweh, should not shine unto them.


Romans 6:15-16—
15 What? May we sin as though we are not under the Law, yet under Yahweh's undeserved pardon? by no means!
16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves as servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey—whether of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

I Yahchanan 3:7-9—
7 Little children, let no man deceive you; he who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
8 He who commits sin is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of Yahweh was manifested; that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whoever is begotten of Yahweh does not commit sin; for His seed remains in Him; and it is possible for him not to sin, because he has been begotten of Yahweh.


I Yahchanan 5:18-21—
18 We know that whoever is born of Yahweh does not sin; but he who has been begotten of Yahweh keeps himself, and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we belong to Yahweh, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
20 And we know that the Son of Yahweh has come, and has given us an understanding, in order that we may know Him Who is true; and we are in Him Who is true, for we are in His Son, Yahshua. Yahweh is the true Father, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from the defilement of Gods (elohim).


Revelation 18:2-5—
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying: Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of demons, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 Gor all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying: Come out of her, My people, so that you do not partake in her sins, and so that you do not receive of her plagues,
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and Yahweh has remembered her iniquities!

However, the apostles knew Yahweh's Plan which called for a man to be born who would be sacrificed for the past sins of many. They also knew that this man would be raised again by Yahweh.


















Maybe in the Jewish (OT) scriptures,
but not in I John (aka "Yahchanan").

John equates "sin" with "lawlessness" (anomia), in your example,
and since the law of the new covenant is to love one another (no more, no less), a Christian sins when s/he fails to do that.

A Yahwist sins when s/he violates one of Yahweh's laws.


So biblically (since I John is a book in the Bible), - "sin" is defined as lawlessness.


What the heck are they talking about here? :rolleyes:

Acts 3:13-15—
13 The Father of Abraham, Isaac, and Yaaqob, the Father of our fathers, glorified His Servant Yahshua, Whom you handed over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to release Him.
14 However, you denied the holy one and the just, and demanded that a murderer should be released to you;
15 And killed the Prince of Life, Whom Yahweh raised from the dead. Of this we are witnesses.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Y'all gotta' get up to speed!!


K?

Tired Of Living On Shankbones?
By Rabbi/Rabbi/Brother Moshe Yoseph Koniuchowsky

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/articles/?page=shankbones&type=8
Carnal men are always willing to sacrifice their lives to religious traditions of men, carnal talk, entertainment, TV, carnal movies, power, fame, fortune, prestige of position and use carnal influences to advance themselves. These things steal from the common good of man, everyone suffers in the end. The Kingdom of Mashiyach is a refuge from the carnal world, we are in the world but not of it, however religion teaches you can have both.

POWER

"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask,

it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matthew 18:19-20


"Speak not evil one of another, brethren.

He that speaks evil of his brother, and judges his brother,

speaks evil of the Torah, and judges the Torah:

but if you judge the Torah,

you art not a doer of the Torah, but a judge."

Originally Posted by snoopsnuffleopagus
As the Function of the Torah is to instruct ones' Soul asto what is Righteous as compared to Sinful; 613 Laws; Judgements and Statutes were provided. Alot of Science is included. Obedience to YHWHs Laws, Judgements and Statutes does not 'Justify' a person, but it does lead to 'Blessings' as opposed to 'Curses'.

Blessings being Peace of Mind, good health, prosperity and so forth.

Curses being Disease, anxieties, 'want'....

Examine these Laws because they are the Granitic Bedrock Foundation of the 'Faith' of the Patriarchs, Matriarchs, Prophets, Yahshua haMashiach and His Apostles.

The choice is Freewill: Choose Blessings or Curses

Overview:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/613.htm

248 Positive Commandments:

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/e0001.htm

365 Negative Commandments

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/e0002.htm

These Laws; Judgements and Statutes provide specificity asto daily activities, and if heeded, eliminates alot of 'problems'.

The Book of Yahweh can be considered a 'Closed Set', as far as information provided.

Moshe stated unequivocaly that he wrote down ALL the Words YHWH spoke. Witheld nothing.

The so-called Oral Torah is a construct of man.

Yahshua haMashiach declared He revealed ALL.

That He said nothing in secret.

And that He said and did all that His Father(Abba) Yahweh told Him to do and say.

So with a Closed Set of information, anyone, who so desires, may understand this Book.]

Many critics proclaim the Book of Yahweh is inconsistent, incoherent, contradictory.

They are erroneously informed.

The Book of Yahweh is about the Torah, from the 3rd Verse of Genesis to the Last Verse of Revelation.

The Book is entirely about Torah Consciousness and Torah Observance, written by Jews who were Torah Conscious and Observant.

The Torah Conscious and Observant are the Children of the Light; those who are not are the Children of the Dark.

So Torah and all the rest of the Scriptures is Instruction
for ALL Humankind.

First to the Yahdai(jew), and then to the Greek(gentile).

Yahshua haMashiach is considered to be the Torah in the Flesh, the Walking Torah. The Ultimate example.

This has been YHWHs plan from the beginning. To teach Humankind the Path to Peace.

http://www.thepathtolife.com/PathtoLife.pdf

THE TORAH, DONE AWAY? 4-8-05 Edition
http://www.tntrevealed.org/radioshow.cfm?c=5&l=4

"Not Subject to the Law of GOD?"

Part 7. Historical Reality Concerning What Yahushua and His Followers Believed
http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id47.html

When Did the Disciples of Yahshua (Jesus) Stop Observing the Torah (Old Testament Laws)?

http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id64.html


I got lots more, y'all are very, very, very, incorrect in your views. I suggest y'all get 'Recalibrated'

Good Luck with that!!!

Kind Regards

[kasalt]

In Galatians 3:19-20, Paul wrote:
"Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."
Paul claims the Law is the product of the "mediator."

Answer for yourself: What does he mean by calling Jehovah, supposedly the one God and creator of all, a "mediator?" A mediator between what and what?

Gnostics immediately recognize that Paul is teaching the Gnostic doctrine that the giver of the Law, supposedly Jehovah, was in actuality the "demiurge," a lesser god who mediates between the supreme God and creation.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Both you and Phil are incorrect. You read into the Scripture what YOU want to see; A Paganic Veneer, Imprimature; which in reality, does not exist.

I will present Scriptural and Historical Proof that Yahweh is the Creator Being Yahshua haMessiah and His Handpicked Apostles and Disciple were/are His Servants and Servants of Yahweh.

phil; I provided the Definitions of those words in this Thread many moons ago.

In the New Testament, when 'The Law' is cited; it is specifically the Law of Moses/YHWH which is being cited. The First Chapter of each Gospel refutes 'gnosis of xtianity' 100%. The Principle of First Mention ;)

kasalt: answer these:

http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id64.html

When Did the Disciples of Yahshua (Jesus) Stop Observing the Torah (Old Testament Laws)?


While Yahshua (Jesus) was on earth, he and his disciples practiced the religion that God gave to the Israelites through Moses. The guidelines they followed were found primarily in the Torah*, which is the first five books of the Old Testament -- the writings of Moses. The Torah contains a variety of information including history, the Ten Commandments, and instructions pertaining to finance, government, family, health, farming, dress, feasts, and worship.

It was at some time after the death of Yahshua (Jesus) that Christians stopped observing the Old Testament laws. Exactly when that change occurred is not clear in the Bible. Many people believe the change was made by Yahshua (Jesus) himself immediately after the resurrection. However, there is compelling evidence in the book of Acts that the change did not occur until much later.

This article examines all the evidence in the book of Acts that indicates whether or not the apostles and early Christians were still following the Old Testament laws. The context of the story is important. It would be a good idea to read the whole book of Acts to understand the passages covered in this study.

kasalt; you were wrong about this; Shauls status as a Pharisee:
Paul implies that he would not have disobeyed the Torah by insulting the high priest if he had known Ananias was the high priest.

Acts 23:6 Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead."

Although Paul evidently said this in order to take advantage of the dissension between the Pharisees and Sadducees, it would not have worked if Paul had not been living in accordance with the law of Moses. In that case, it would probably have been laughter, rather than a dispute, that broke out in the Sanhedrin when Paul claimed to be a Pharisee.

Acts 23:9 There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees stood up and argued vigorously. "We find nothing wrong with this man," they said. "What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?"

Although the Asian Jews had made serious charges against Paul, there was enough evidence to show that Paul's claim to being a Pharisee was valid. Some of the Pharisees declared, "We find nothing wrong with this man." It is doubtful they would have said this about a man who was not following the teachings of Moses. The passages following this show how determined the Jews were to be rid of Paul, which makes this vindication of Paul by some of his enemies even more significant.

ALSO:


In the court of Felix

Acts 24:5-6 "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect and even tried to desecrate the temple; so we seized him.

The Jews considered Paul to be a leader of the Nazarenes, which was a sect of Judaism. History records that the sect of the Nazarenes accepted Yahshua (Jesus) as the Messiah and continued to observe the laws of Moses. The sect existed in the synagogues until at least the fifth century.

Acts 24:12-16 My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city. And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me. However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

Paul denied most of the charges against him, but he did not deny being a Nazarene or a follower of the Way, which the Jews called a sect. Apparently Paul also considered Christianity to be a part of the Jewish religion.

Paul clearly states, "I believe everything that agrees with the Law and the Prophets." The "Law and the Prophets" was the term the Jews used for the Old Testament Scriptures.

Acts 24:17-18 "After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings. I was ceremonially clean when they found me in the temple courts doing this. There was no crowd with me, nor was I involved in any disturbance.

Paul describes himself as "ceremonially clean" according to the Torah. Paul evidently was not afraid to comply with some of the ceremonial laws.

In the court of Festus

Acts 25:7-8 When Paul appeared, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood around him, bringing many serious charges against him, which they could not prove. Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the law of the Jews or against the temple or against Caesar."

Paul plainly testified that he had done nothing wrong against the law of the Jews.

kasalt; read what I have highlited; it completely refutes your position as nonsense. The Apostle Shaul is a servant of YHWH. Read the Text. ALL the Apostles go to the Synagogue.

GOSH!!!! :rolleyes: GOLLLY!!!! look at their habit of going to the Synagogue on YHWHs Sabbath, as Qualified Teachers/Rabbis.

Ever since the 4th century, western Christians have generally ignored the Jewish feasts. It’s easy to assume that the apostles did the same as we do. However, considering the high regard that the apostles had for the law of Moses, it is more likely that the Christians were observing the feasts mentioned here.


First missionary journey

As Paul and Barnabus traveled to the various cities, they went to worship and teach in the Jewish synagogues.

Acts 13:5 When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the Jewish synagogues. John was with them as their helper.
In order to be welcome as teachers in the Jewish synagogues of the city, Paul and Barnabus must have been following the Old Testament laws.

Acts 13:14-16 From Perga they went on to Pisidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered the synagogue and sat down. After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue rulers sent word to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have a message of encouragement for the people, please speak." Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: "Men of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me!
Acts 13:38-39 "Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

Although Paul was observing the law of Moses, he did not teach people to rely on the law for salvation. He makes it clear that the law was not for the purpose of justification.

The Torah describes many offenses for which the law provided no remedy -- the guilty person was to be "cut off from his people". Forgiveness for those sins as well as restoration into God's kingdom became available through Jesus.

Acts 13:42-43 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

If the Christians had been worshiping on Sundays, as is commonly assumed, Paul could have invited the people to meet with the Christians the following day, rather than have them wait until the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.
Acts 14:1 At Iconium Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue. There they spoke so effectively that a great number of Jews and Gentiles believed.

Read it and weep.

THE TORAH, DONE AWAY?
http://www.tntrevealed.org/radioshow.cfm?c=5&l=4

This is impossible for any christian gnostic to refute.

And as it is written in Galatians 3:26-29,

3:26 You are all sons of Yahuweh through faith in haMashiach Yeshua.

3:27 For as many of you as were immersed in Messiah, have clothed yourself with Messiah,

3:29 and if you are Messiah’s, then you are Avraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So believing in Messiah makes us descendants of Avraham, and heirs according to the promise.


As it is also written concerning Elisheva (Elizabeth) and Zechar'yahu (Zechariah), the parents of Yahchanan the Immerser (John the Baptizer) in Luke 1:5-6,

1:6 …they were both righteous before Yahuweh, walking in all the commandments and appointed times of Yahuweh blamelessly.

When Yahchanan (John) the Immerser was born, his parents had him circumcised the eighth day, according to the covenant of Avraham - at which time Zechar‘yahu, the Torah obedient father of Yahchanan (John) proceeded to prophesy, proclaiming in Luke 1:68-79,

1:68 “Blessed be Yahuweh, God of Israel, for He has visited and redeemed His people,

1:69 and raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of His servant, David…

1:72 …to perform the mercy promised to our fathers and to remember His holy covenant,

1:73 the oath which He swore to our father Avraham…

1:77 …and to give the knowledge of salvation to His people by the remission of their sins.”

And Miriam (Mary), the mother of Yeshua, said upon Yeshua’s birth, in Luke 1:54-55,

1:54 Yahuweh has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy,

1:55 as He spoke to our fathers, to Avraham and to his Seed forever.”

Miriam (Mary) and Yoseph also had Yeshua circumcised on the eighth day, in accordance with the covenant made with Avraham; and Miriam offered up sacrifices for her first-born, and observed the period of purification as commanded by Yahuweh in the Torah.

Yeshua and his parents observed Pesach (Passover), as it is written in Luke 2:41,

But this; is the absolute end of 'gnosis of christianity'. You cannot explain these direct citations of Torah by Yahshua haMessiah, which mention Yahweh by Name, proving the Tetragrammaton SHOULD be in ALL new testaments.

And Yeshua after being in the wilderness 40 days overcame temptation by standing on the commandments of Torah. Three of which are quoted as follow, as it is written in Luke 4:1-13,

1- Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God; D'varim (Deuteronomy) 8:3.

2- You shall worship Yahuweh your God and Him only shall you serve; D'varim (Deuteronomy) 6:13. And

3- You shall not tempt Yahuweh your God; D'varim (Deuteronomy) 6:16.




The Sermon on the Mount is interesting because Yeshua begins it by declaring that,

1- He did not come to do away with Torah, that

2- not the least stroke of a pen in Torah will under any circumstance pass away until heaven and earth pass away, and

3- to declare that whoever breaks the least of the commandments of Torah and teaches others to do so will be called least in the Kingdom of Yahuweh.

Then He ends the sermon three chapters later by declaring, “Depart from me. I never knew you” to people who were professing to be believers, but whose professions were not combined with obedience to Torah!

And what did Yeshua teach in those three chapters, in between those opening and closing statements? He taught the commandments of Torah.

He taught Commandments directly from Shemoth (Exodus) 20:13-14, Shemoth (Exodus) 21:14, from V'yikra (Leviticus) 19:18 and V'yikra (Leviticus) 24:20; from D'varim (Deuteronomy) 5:17-18, D'varim (Deuteronomy) 19:21 and D'varim (Deuteronomy) 24:1.








YOU CANNOT REFUTE THIS EITHER:

New Testament Use of the Old Testament
by Roger Nicole

http://www.bible-researcher.com/nicole.html

The c/gnosticists cannot refute this Data, proving that ALL the Core Doctrines of 'gnosis of christianity' are Bogus=Fanatsy=Fraud.



THE NEW Testament contains an extraordinarily large number of Old Testament quotations. It is difficult to give an accurate figure since the variation in use ranges all the way from a distant allusion to a definite quotation introduced by an explicit formula stating the citation’s source. As a result, the figures given by various authors often reflect a startling discrepancy.

1. RANGE OF OLD TESTAMENT REFERENCES
The present writer has counted 224 direct citations introduced by a definite formula indicating the writer purposed to quote. To these must be added seven cases where a second quotation is introduced by the conjunction “and,” and 19 cases where a paraphrase or summary rather than a direct quotation follows the introductory formula. We may further note at least 45 instances where the similarity with certain Old Testament passages is so pronounced that, although no explicit indication is given that the New Testament author was referring to Old Testament Scripture, his intention to do so can scarcely be doubted. Thus a very conservative count discloses unquestionably at least 295 separate references to the Old Testament. These occupy some 352 verses of the New Testament, or more than 4.4 per cent. Therefore one verse in 22.5 of the New Testament is a quotation.

If clear allusions are taken into consideration, the figures are much higher: C. H. Toy lists 613 such instances, Wilhelm Dittmar goes as high as 1640, while Eugen Huehn indicates 4105 passages reminiscent of Old Testament Scripture. It can therefore be asserted, without exaggeration, that more than 10 per cent of the New Testament text is made up of citations or direct allusions to the Old Testament. The recorded words of Jesus disclose a similar percentage. Certain books like Revelation, Hebrews, Romans are well nigh saturated with Old Testament forms of language, allusions and quotations. Perusal of Nestle’s edition of the Greek New Testament, in which the Old Testament material is printed in bold face type, will reveal at a glance the extent of this practice. These facts appear even more impressive when one remembers that in New Testament times the Old Testament was not as today duplicated by the million but could be obtained only in expensive handwritten copies.

If we limit ourselves to the specific quotations and direct allusions which form the basis of our previous reckoning, we shall note that 278 different Old Testament verses are cited in the New Testament: 94 from the Pentateuch, 99 from the Prophets, and 85 from the Writings. Out of the 22 books in the Hebrew reckoning of the Canon only six (Judges-Ruth, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Ezra-Nehemlah, Chronicles) are not explicitly referred to. The more extensive lists of Dittmar and Huehn show passages reminiscent of all Old Testament books without exception.

It is to be noted that the whole New Testament contains not even one explicit citation of any of the Old Testament Apocrypha which are considered as canonical by the Roman Catholic Church. This omission can scarcely be viewed as accidental.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

In Galatians 3:19-20, Paul wrote:
"Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one."
Paul claims the Law is the product of the "mediator."

Answer for yourself: What does he mean by calling Jehovah, supposedly the one God and creator of all, a "mediator?" A mediator between what and what?

Gnostics immediately recognize that Paul is teaching the Gnostic doctrine that the giver of the Law, supposedly Jehovah, was in actuality the "demiurge," a lesser god who mediates between the supreme God and creation.

look, look above in this thread. We have proven The Name is Yahweh. You have proven you don't know the difference between a Pronoun and a Proper Name. :rolleyes: I laugh at you. Tee Hee Hee :D

Your Problem is: One crap translation extracted from context. He was explaining how the Priesthood of the Order of Melchizedek was supplanting the Levitical Priesthood.


This particular Law that the Apostle Shaul spoke to the Galatians about was the same Law that he spoke about to the Hebrews_the Levitical Law of the Priesthood. We find in:
Galatians 3:16-19—
16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and his seed. He does not say: And to seeds, as if to many people, but: And to your Seed, meaning One person: Messiah.
17 Now I say this; The Law of the Levitical Priesthood, which came into existence 430 years after the covenant was already ratified by Yahweh_does not do away with, nor abolish the promise.
18 For if the inheritance is outside the Law, then it is no longer from the promise; but Yahweh has given it to Abraham through the promise.
19 What, then, was the purpose of the Levitical Priesthood Law? It was added 430 years after the covenant for forgiveness of transgressions, until the Seed would come to Whom it had been promised, ordained by malakim through the hand of a mediator.


This added Law, which the Apostle Shaul spoke of, was the Law of the Levitical Priesthood. When Mosheh brought the Children of Israyl out of the land of Egypt, the Aaronic Priesthood was given to Mosheh's brother, who was the firstborn son in Mosheh's family. This Law of the firstborn as Priests was in effect until the incident of the golden calf at Horeb. Because of this sin, which came to pass 430 years after the institution of the ratified covenant, with the firstborn as Priests, the Levites were taken as Priests instead of the firstborn, as it says in:
Numbers 3:41,45—
41 And you shall take the Levites for Me in place of all the firstborn among the children of Israyl, and the livestock of the Levites in place of all the firstborn of the livestock of the children of Israyl. I am Yahweh.
45 Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israyl, and the livestock of the Levites instead of their livestock. The Levites shall be Mine. I am Yahweh.


Yahshua Messiah took the place of the Levitical Priesthood whose duty it was to stand daily, offering the same sacrifices which could never take away sins:
Hebrews 10:11-12—
11 And every priest stands daily, ministering and offering again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of Yahweh,

Hebrews 5:6—
As He also says in another Scripture: You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:21—
For they became priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him Who said to Him: Yahweh has vowed and will not relent; You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 10:21—
And having a High Priest over The House of Yahweh:


The Levitical Priesthood Law was added, because of the sin which was committed, but the covenant which was ratified at first included the firstborn as Priest as a promise.

However, Yahshua taking this place in no way does away with any of the other Laws, Statutes, and Judgments which were not added, but were Ordained from the Beginning.

The Levitical Priesthood Law, created for the offering of animal sacrifices after the firstborn son of the Children of Israyl had disqualified themselves as priests, was not from the original promise. The Apostle Shaul wrote for our understanding in:
Hebrews 9:1-15—
1 So then, the first priesthood had both the ordinances of service and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For this was the tabernacle layout: the first part in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the Holy Place;
3 And behind the second veil, the inner part of the tabernacle, which is called the Most Holy Place;
4 Which had the altar of incense, and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were placed the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;
5 And above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.
6 Now when these things had been arranged in this way, the priests always went into the first part; the Holy Place, performing the service of Yahweh;
7 But into the second part; the Most Holy Place, only the High Priest went once a year on the Day of Atonement, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins of the people which had been committed in ignorance.
8 The Holy Spirit signifying this: that the way into the Most Holy Place was not yet made manifest, as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.
9 This is a representation of the present time; in which gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him that performs the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience—
10 Only about foods and drinks, various washings, and ordinances of flesh, until the time of reformation.
11 But the Messiah came near as a High Priest over the righteous things to come, with the great and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation;
12 Nor through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once, for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats, and the ashes of a red heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
14 How much more will the blood of the Messiah, Who, through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to Yahweh, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living Father?
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the renewed covenant, under which, through the means of death to bring redemption from transgressions committed under the covenant, the first who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


The renewed covenant, of which Yahshua Messiah is the Mediator, is not Lawless the renewed covenant, which Yahshua mediates, is to obey Yahweh's Laws completely and to love doing so.

Hebrews 10:16—
This is the covenant that I will renew with them after those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.







It's all about YHWH. :)

Always was

Always is

Always will be

[phildee3]

What kind of person starts a thread about something they're against/dislike -
rather than something they're for/or like?

I mean, I would never start a thread about "Yahwism"!

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

you would not HONESTLY answer my questions. :(

You and kasalt both drew first blood, inspired by malice of intent and vanity, you both attacked me and impugned my dignity and honour by calling me a liar and other naughty things. :(

I knew you were misguided and needed some loving correction, hence: The gnosticism thread.

I 'Lured' you, I appealed to your vanity, and you 'Bit' :D

You have revealed you serve The Queen of Heaven. :rolleyes:

The difference between you and I is I actually post truth, you and kasalt post untruths.

What I posted about gnosticism is factually proven.

2010 is going to be a very, very, very rough year for 'gnosis of christianity' worldwide. This Thread is going wide. You and kasalt cannot honestly answer a few simple queries.

As you know I posted the definitions here months ago.

Before you and kasalt attacked, you never fully understood what it was you were attacking, you never considered the Law of Inevitable Consequences or the Law of Unforeseen Consequences.

And now thw 'Head of Gnosis of Christianity' lies severed and on the floor.

lol

You and kasalt tried to bully me and prevent the Word of YHWH from being heard, now you look at the exposed ruins of the Fraud: 'gnosis of christianity'.

I have totaly refuted every Doctrine you and kasalt have put forth.

It wasn't really that tough either.

New Testament Use of the Old Testament
by Roger Nicole

http://www.bible-researcher.com/nicole.html

Table of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, in English translation

http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTCHART.HTM

Kind Regards

[kasalt]

look, look above in this thread. We have proven The Name is Yahweh. You have proven you don't know the difference between a Pronoun and a Proper Name. :rolleyes: I laugh at you. Tee Hee Hee :D

On the contrary, the Jews maintain that the knowledge of the true pronunciation of the name has been entirely lost since the destruction of the temple. Josephus affirmed that the name was originally given to Moses (cf. Ex. 3:14 ff.) and that he, Josephus, was not permitted to enunciate it. Maimonides (AD 1135-1204) averred that the sacred name was pronounced at blessings and by the high priest on the Day of Atonement during the early years of the Second Temple, but later was exchanged for 'adonai' after the death of Simon the Just (3rd century BC).

The alleged loss of the proper pronunciation of JHWH occurred because of one of several reasons, according to this common historical account. 1) The Jews developed a superstitious fear of taking the Lord's name in vain according to the warning of Ex. 20:7, and consequently stopped pronouncing it. 2) These same Jews further interpreted Lev. 24:16 to read "and he that nameth (Hebrew: blasphemeth) the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death." Consequently, according to this history, during the silent years until the coming of Christ, Jews refused to pronounce the sacred name. This refusal among the Jews continued until time of the Masoretes (c. AD 6th - 10th century).

In summary then, the best that critical scholars can derive from history for the discovery of the pronunciation for the sacred tetragrammaton JHWH is as follows. If God ever revealed the proper vocalization of His OT name JHWH, the Jews, from the Babylonian captivity onward, lost this pronunciation. Believers therefore have not known the true name of the Lord for about 2,600 years.

Bible history indicates that believers and unbelievers did not have "the dread of uttering The Name" of the Lord. From the first writer of Scripture to the last, OT saints pronounced the name of Jehovah. The first writer of the OT canon, Job, referred to "the hand of the LORD" in the affairs of man (Job 12:9). Moses, upon writing Genesis, initially referred to the LORD God as creator of the earth and the heavens in Gen. 2:4. Later, Moses began to express the name of Jehovah to the Lord and to others (Ex. 4:1; 5:1). About a thousand years later Nehemiah expressed the LORD's name in his prayer (Neh. 1:5) as did Ezra in his preaching (Neh. 8:9). The last book of the Tanak records the name of Jehovah (II Chron. 36:23) as well as the last book of the prophets (Mal. 4:5). Furthermore, unbelieving Gentiles mentioned the vocalized tetragrammaton in their conversations without fear of punishment by death. Ranging from Pharaoh to Rahab to Cyrus, these goyim pronounced Jehovah's name without dread and suffered no ill affects (cf. Ex. 9:27; Josh. 2:9; Ezra 1:2). This survey of the period of Biblical history (22nd to 5th century BC ) indicates that no saint or sinner, Jew or Gentile, from beginning to end, ever expressed dread to pronounce the tetragrammaton or suffered death as its consequence.

The history of this "dread" must have commenced during the silent years (the four centuries before Christ's first advent) while Judaism continued to apostatize. (1 (http://www.deanburgonsociety.org/CriticalTexts/yahweh.htm))

It is noteworthy that after the return from exile even the prophets avoided using the Name with non-Jews. For example, Daniel used the Tetragram (Dn 1:2 9:2-20) but he used several substitutes with non-Jews: God in the heavens (Dn 2:28), Revealer of secrets (Dn 2:29), God of heaven (Dn 2:37,44), the Most High (Dn 4:17,24,32), the heavens (Dn 4:26). In the same way Ezra (-498?-398?) and Nehemiah used the Tetragram with the Jews (Ezr 3:10,11 8:28,29; Ne 4:14 8:9) but they used several substitutes with non-Jews: God (Ezr 5:17), the great God (Ezr 5:8), God of the heavens (Ezr 5:12; Ne 2:4,20), God of the heavens and the earth (Ezr 5:11). Furthermore, these non-Jews no longer used the Tetragram in their answers to the prophets. Cyrus was probably the last (just after 539 BCE) who used the name Jehovah (Ezr 1:2). In the book of Esther there is no Tetragram, but the last book (Malachi) written for the Jews, contains it.

This prohibition appeared only after the middle of the second century CE and it was given by Rabbi Abba Shaül, but long time before this date (circa third century BCE ) the Tetragram was not used anymore due to a mystical reverence toward the Name. Furthermore the Jews considered the use of the Tetragram reserved to the Temple and outside of it they preferred sometimes using the two substitutes Yah and Yahu in Hebrew or Ia and Iaô in Greek (numerous archaeological and historical witnesses during the period 500 BCE to 500 CE . (2 (http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A13.htm))

According to the Karaites, the popular pronunciation YAHWEH is based on a 5th Century Samaritan usage, YABE or YABHE, which is entirely unintelligible, and without any grammatical or linguistic foundation. The form "YAHWEH" is not the simple future used by the Creator Himself in Exodus 3:14 but the so-called CAUSATIVE and would mean "He who causes to be". The Creator certainly "causes to be", but He gives His Name as the simple future in Exodus 3:14 so we can safely assume that the same Name, in the third person, must also be the simple future and not the causative. (In Hebrew the simple future tense is called "ATID" and the causative "HIF'IL"). Some see in the form YAH (as in Halleluyah) proof for the pronunciation "YAHWEH". Anyone who knows Hebrew knows that the vocalization of the syllable, in both verbs and nouns, changes at times with its position in the word. Thus, the root YHW may be pronounced YAHU at the end of the word (as in ELIYAHU, GEDALYAHU, YISH'AYAHU etc.) and YEHU at the beginning of a word (as in YEHOSHAFAT, YEHOYADA). Thus the syllable YAH at the END of a word, could be pronounced YEH or YIH at the beginning of a word. These observations are based on Hebrew grammar! If the so-called "YAHWISTS" or Sacred Name groups have a source of information above or beyond this one, let them show it! (3 (http://www.light-of-israel.org/the_name.shtml))

If one chooses the pronunciation, YaHWeH, there is no particular sense to the vowel pattern. For that reason YeHoVaH is preferable. Yet there is another reason grammatically. Hebrew vowels change form depending on the number of syllables, and on where the syllables are located in the name.

If there is just one syllable, such as Yah, then the "a" vowel is correct. Or if the letters come at the end of the word, such as Eliyah (Elijah), then the "a" is also correct. However, when the vowel comes at the beginning with multiple syllables, it changes. This can easily be proved by checking a concordance of the Bible. Such names as Yehoyachin or Yehoshua or Yehoyada or Yehoshaphat contain the same root letters as YHVH, in the same syllable arrangement. All of the names in this pattern display the vowels as "e"-"o"-"a." If that same pattern is placed in the letters YHVH, we see the name again as Yehovah.

Since EVERY example of the YHVH root used in biblical names in this pattern shows the vowels as "e"-"o"-"a", one would have to show some other overwhelming evidence, textually or grammatically, to choose a different pronunciation. There is no such other overwhelming documentation weighty enough to refute the biblical and grammatical evidence.

In summary, 1) the meaning of the vowels, 2) the grammatical form, and 3) the list of biblical examples, all point to Yehovah (or Yehowah) as the preferred pronunciation over Yahweh.

This pronunciation issue carries over into the name of Yeshua Himself. The name Yeshua is a shortened form of Yehoshua (Joshua). Some Christians and Messianic Jews today want to spell the Messiah's name as Y'shua or Yahshua, while many modern Israelis refer to Him as Yeshu. All of those pronunciations are patently incorrect. The name Yeshua is found thirty (30) times in the Hebrew text of the post exilic history books of the Bible (like Ezra and Nehemiah). Every single time the name is written Yeshua. The vowel point is a "tsere," not a "patach," "kamats," or "sh'va"; not even a "segol." There is always an "ayin" at the end of the name. One could make an argument for transliterating the name as Yeishu'a, but certainly not Y'shua, Yahshua, or Yeshu. (4 (http://www.streamsinthenegev.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/yehovah_yahweh.pdf))

The word "Yahshua" appears to have its origins in the Sacred Name movement in the 1930's when certain men saw that "Jesus" was derived from "Joshua". Since they understood that the "J" sound is not in the Hebrew language, "Yahshua" was apparently considered correct. However, "Yahshua" clearly ignores the third letter of the Messiah's name (Waw) which gives us the "oo" (u) sound in Yahushua. To demonstrate this, let's look at the individual letters of http://www.eliyah.com/SonName.gif

1. Yod - Produces a "Y" or "I" sound.
2. Heh - As a Hebrew vowel letter it produces the "Ah" or "Oh" sound (like in #8283 "Sarah" and #8010 Sh'lomoh). Otherwise produces the "H" sound and the "ah" sound would have to be supplied by the reader.
3. Waw - Called "Vav" in modern Hebrew. As a Hebrew vowel letter it produces an "oo" (u) or "oh" sound (like in #7307 Ruach). Otherwise produces a "W" sound. This is the ignored letter in the pronunciation "Yahshua". This letter is nowhere represented. Where is the W or initial U??
4. Shin - Produces the "sh" sound. The following "oo" sound is indicated by a vowel pointing but Deut. 3:21 and Judges 2:7 actually gives us another "waw" after this letter, proving the "shu" pronunciation as valid. This is why Strong's 3091 gives 2 possible spellings (see above lexicon graphic). This also eliminates "Yasha/Yahusha" and "Yahoshea/Yahushea" as being possibilities.
5. Ayin - Silent without a vowel point but indicates an "ah" sound at the end of "Yahushua".

So if the Messiah's name was "Yahshua", we would have to delete the third letter (waw) in http://www.eliyah.com/SonName.gif. For this reason, http://www.eliyah.com/SonName.gif cannot not be pronounced "Yahshua". (5 (http://www.eliyah.com/yahushua.html))

Paul Drach, a rabbi converted to Catholicism, explained in his work De l'harmonie entre l'église et la synagogue (Of the harmony between the church and the synagogue) published in 1842, why it was logical that the pronunciation Yehova, which was in agreement with the beginning of all the theophoric names, was the authentic pronunciation, contrary to the form of Samaritan origin Yahvé. He proved the silly way of criticisms against the form Yehova, as the charge of erroneous reading attributed to Galatino. He quoted Raymond Martin and Porchetus de Salvaticis to reject this assertion. Then he demonstrated the delirious way of the transmutation of vowels a, o, a of the word Adonay into e, o, a, because this hypothetical grammatical rule (and against nature concerning a qere / ketib) was already running down with the word Èlohim which keeps its three vowels è, o, i without needing to change them in e, o, i. In spite of the support of Vatican at this time, these denials had not great effect.

Furthermore, this vocalization has always been considered as the most correct by the Jews themselves. For example, in the first Jewish translation in French (from 1836 to 1852) the Jewish translator Samuel Cahen systematically used the name Iehovah. He defended his choice owing to the work of the famous German grammarian W. Gesenius. The Jewish professor J.H. Levy explained why he preferred the form Y'howah, instead of Yahweh, in his article published in 1903 in The Jewish Quarterly Review. At the present time, it can be seen in a book written for the Jews, prefaced by the French Chief Rabbi Joseph Sitruk, that the name Ye.ho.va (Jéhovah), written with the Hebrew letters Yod, He, Vav, He, is considered as the genuine name of God. (6 (http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A03.htm))

Consequently, if the Tetragram was really pronounced Ioua it would have be written hW:y (YWH) in Hebrew, which was never the case. So, because the Tetragram is written hwhy (YHWH), the letter H inside the Name has to be heard. He concluded that, because this name is pronounced according to its letters, that the best transcription was the form I-eh-ou-a (Iehoua), rather than the form I-ou-a...The French translator Pierre Robert Olivétan also recognized in his Apologie du translateur (Apology of the Translator) written in 1535, that God's name was in Hebrew Iehouah rather than Ioua, because this last form did not express the aspiration of the letter H. (7 (http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A06.htm))

If the divine name was pronounced Ioua (I-OU-A) the correct writing would be Y-W-H and not Y-H-W-H. Therefore the name Iehoua (I-eH-OU-A) is the best form taking into account the letter H inside the name, besides this name had no link with the name Iouis (Jupiter). (8 (http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A07.htm))

The debate of knowing if it was necessary to use Iehoua or Ioua had been a felted quarrel of Hebraists. However, when the victorious form began to reach the general public, the debate changed to become much more theological and polemical. The first to start hostilities was the archbishop Gilbert Genebrard, in his book written in 1568 to defend the Trinity, in which he dedicated several pages to prove the errors of S. Chateillon, P. Galatin, S. Pagnin, etc. First of all, he attacked the form Ioua used by Chateillon reminding that St Augustine had explained according to the writer Varro that the Jews had worshiped Ioue (Jupiter!), and that the use of Ioua was thus a return to paganism. He even indicated in his foreword to comments on the Psalms that this name Ioua was barbarian, fictitious and atheistic! Concerning the testimonies of Clement of Alexandria (Iaou), Jerome (Iaho), Theodoret (Iabe), he considered that they reflected altered forms of Ioue, and apparently these testimonies appeared to him little reliable, because they were too late and the Jews had not been pronouncing the Name for several centuries. (9 (http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A08.htm))

The name YHWH is vocalized Yehowah in Hebrew and Iôa in the beginning of numerous Greek names. In the same way, as there were theophoric names elaborated from the great name, that is names beginning with Yehô- or its shortened form Y(eh)ô-, there were also theophoric names elaborated from Yah. However, a major remark is necessary in the Bible, Greek or Hebraic. The Hebrews took care of making either their names begin with Yehô- or Yô-, or to end their names with -yah, but never the opposite, without exception. So, in the Bible, it is impossible to find, among hundred of existing theophoric names, a single name beginning with Yah-. So, those who vocalize YHWH as Yahweh are obliged to admit that the Tetragram, the theophoric name par excellence, does not belong to its family of theophoric names, which is the height of irony. This nonsense is clearly apparent when one opens a dictionary, where the name Yahve is completely isolated from the other theophoric names like: Joshua, Jonathan, Jesus, John, etc. For example, the name YHWHNN (John) is vocalized Yehôha-nan in Hebrew and Iôa-nan in Greek (not Iaô-nan).

It is possible to verify that, without exception, the theophoric names beginning in YHW- are vocalized YeHÔ- (IÔ- in the Septuagint), and those ending in -YHW are vocalized -YaHÛ (IA or IOU in the Septuagint). In addition, the vowel a very often follows the sequence YeHÔ-, that is to say the "normal" sequence is YeHÔ-()a. This sequence is so universal in the theophoric names that some names have been "theophorized" by assonance in the following names of the Septuagint: Iôa-tam (Jg 9:7, 57; 2K 15:5, 32), Iôa-kéim (1Ch 4:22), Iôa-s (1Ch 23:10,11), Iôa-sar (1Ch 2:18), Iôa-kal (Jr 37:3), etc. To sum up, the name Yehu’ results from a contraction of YeHoWaH Hu’ to YeHoW-[aH]-u’ that is YeHoWu’ or YeHU’. On the other hand, YaHu results from the contraction of the two names YaH-Hu’.

The form Yahowah is impossible because it may be read in Hebrew as "Yah [is] howah". Now the Hebrew word HoWah (found in Isaiah 47:11 or Ezekiel 7:26) means "disaster" ( "ruin", "adversity", etc.). However, there is also a homonym of the word HoWaH which means "coming to be". So, in order to avoid an eventual blasphemous misinterpretation, the expression YeHoWaH HoWaH (in Exodus 9:3) meaning "Yehowah coming to be" was modified into YeHoWaH HOYaH. The name YeHoWaH read as YeHoWaH may be undestood as "Ye [is] disaster" (and also as "Ye [is] coming to be"), but Ye is not a short name for God like Yehô, Yô or Yah, therefore, the expression "Ye [is] disaster" means nothing in Hebrew, that this is not the case with the name Ya which is the short name of God (Hallelu-Ya means "Praise Yah"), which involves a potential risk of blasphemous misinterpretation which the reading Yahowah. (9 (http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A14.htm))

To sum up the problem, the pronunciation of God's name, that is Jehovah, is easy to find using the theophoric names because without exception, all the theophoric names beginning in YHW- are vocalized YeHÔ- (IÔ- in the Septuagint). Therefore the ultimate theophoric name that is to say YHW-H must be read as YeHÔ-AH. The meaning of God's name is also easy to determine, that is "He will [prove to] be" according to Exodus 3:14, which gives the correct insight. (10 (http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A11.htm))

The name Yahweh (which is a barbarism) has only been created to battle with the true name Jehovah. (11 (http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A09.htm))

For more information, see this video:

http://www.youtube.com/v/5mSfjOf5zz8

Sources:
1) http://www.deanburgonsociety.org/CriticalTexts/yahweh.htm
2) http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A13.htm
3) http://www.light-of-israel.org/the_name.shtml
4) http://www.streamsinthenegev.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/yehovah_yahweh.pdf
5) http://www.eliyah.com/yahushua.html
6) http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A03.htm
7) http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A06.htm
8) http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A07.htm
9) http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A14.htm
10) http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A11.htm
11) http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename/faq/A09.htm

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

lol@u :D

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1058465150&postcount=249

Writings in Biblical Archaeology Review, Professor Anson F. Rainey, professor of Semitic Linguistics at Tel Aviv University, confirms that “Yahweh” is the correct pronunciation: “I mentioned the evidence from Greek papyri found in Egypt. The best of these is Iaouee (London Papyri, xlvi, 446-483).

The Encyclopedia Judaica vol.7, pp.679 states; "The true pronunciation of The Name YHWH was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that The Name was pronounced 'YAHWEH'.

The Encyclopedia Britannica (Micropedia, vol. 10) says:

"Yahweh-the personal name of the [El] of the Israelites ...The Masoretes, Jewish biblical scholars of the Middle Ages, replaced the vowel signs that had appeared above or beneath the letters of YHWH with the vowel signs of [for] Adonai or of Elohim. Thus the artificial name Jehovah (YeHoWaH) came into being. Although Christian scholars after the Renaissance and Reformation periods used the term Jehovah for YHWH, in the 19th and 20th centuries biblical scholars again began to use the form Yahweh, thus this pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton was never really lost. Greek transcriptions also indicate that YHWH should be pronounced Yahweh."

Interestingly, even the Jehovah's Witnesses [Watchtower] acknowledge that the name Jehovah is improper. Their book, "Let Your Name Be Sanctified" freely admits on pages 16 and 18[9] that Yahweh is the superior translation of the Tetragrammaton. This book has lately been withdrawn. However, in the preface of their "The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures," we find on page 23 the following admission:

"While inclining to view the pronunciation 'Yahweh' as the more correct way, we have retained the form 'Jehovah' because of people's familiarity with it since the 14th century. Moreover, it preserves equally with other forms, the four letters of the Tetragrammaton JHVH."

The Encyclopedia Biblica tells us, “The controversy as to the correct pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton, whether as Yahweh, or Yahawe, Yahwa, or Yahawa…has been gradually brought to an end by the general adoption of the view, first propounded by Ewald, that the true form is Yahwe” (Divine Names, p. 3311).[21] The eminent Encyclopedia Judaica confirms this, “The true pronunciation of the name YHWH [Yahweh] was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced ‘Yahweh,’” Vol. 7, p.680.

This is validated in the Encyclopedia Britannica, 15th Edition: “Early Christian writers, such as Clement of Alexandria in the 2nd century, had used the form Yahweh, thus this pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton was never really lost. Greek transcriptions also indicated that YHWH should be pronounced Yahweh.” Vol. X, p. 786.

“The saying of God, ‘I am who I am,’ is surely connected with His name that is written in the Hebrew consonantal text as Yhwh, the original pronunciation of which is well attested as Yahweh” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 5, page 743).

“Such a conclusion, giving ‘Yahweh’ as the pronunciation of the name, is confirmed by the testimony of the Fathers and gentile writers, where the forms IAO, Yaho, Yaou, Yahouai, and Yahoue appear. Especially important is the statement of Theodoret in relation to Ex. lvi., when he says: ‘the Samaritans call it [the tetragrammaton] ‘Yabe,’ the Jews call it ‘Aia’…” The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, “Yahweh,” page 471.

see? you are full of 'it'. You cannot answer my Queries so you spam. lol@u

I countered every argument you have made with overwhelming credentialed evidence. 'gnosis of christianity' is lying dead on the floor and you can do nothing.


oh....wait.....there is something you can do. :)


You can 'Get up to speed'.

You need to be Reprogrammed.

Here:

[kasalt]

I mentioned the evidence from Greek papyri found in Egypt...Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that The Name was pronounced 'YAHWEH'...Greek transcriptions also indicate that YHWH should be pronounced Yahweh...Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced ‘Yahweh'...Greek transcriptions also indicated that YHWH should be pronounced Yahweh...

So now your basing your evidence on the Greek language?

lol@u :D
Remember that the Greeks were pagans and the Jews considered the Greek language an abomination. The Jewish authorities declared that it was worse to learn the Greek language than to eat swine’s flesh! And they forbad the teaching of it.

see? you are full of 'it'. You cannot answer my Queries so you spam. lol@u

I countered every argument you have made with overwhelming credentialed evidence and you can do nothing.


oh....wait.....there is something you can do. :)


You can 'Get up to speed'.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Ladies & Gentlemen; Salutorious Salutations & Greetings!

'gnosis of christianity' is a Predatious and Exploitative Doctrine. The 'christian gnostic' requires their victim to be Biblically Illiterate. Clueless; a Real Petunia Strollin' Down the Boulevard of Broken and Modified Dreams.

Some Prerequisite Reading Materiel; will enable the Reader to Form an Educated Opinion.

The Hebrew Perspective

http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id54.html

http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id32.html

THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM 2-20-05 Edition

http://www.tntrevealed.org/radioshow.cfm?c=22&l=29

http://www.tntrevealed.org/radio/00/00/00/study_5__the_faith_of_abraham_9-17-06.pdf

Thoughts on the divine council of Israelite religion and Biblical theology
by Michael S. Heiser, PhD, Hebrew Bible and Ancient Semitic Languages

Mike is currently working on a book devoted to the divine council worldview of the Bible.

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/

On Levi, Melchizadok & Galatians 8-24-08

http://www.tntrevealed.org/booklets.cfm?c=33&l=41

Full Text pdf.

http://www.tntrevealed.org/booklet/00/00/00/booklet_4.pdf

On Galatians & Torah, 10/19/08 Edition

http://www.tntrevealed.org/booklets.cfm?c=20&l=21

http://www.tntrevealed.org/booklet/00/00/00/booklet_5__on_galatians_and_torah_10-19-08.pdf


Saddle Up!

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1058475643&postcount=276

Ladies & Gentlemen; Felicitous Salutations:

More then 1 year + A Grace Period has passed since I first challenged kasalt & phildee to answer six simple queries. They have not.

Instead they mince out to the Dance Floor emptyhanded, emptyheaded and perform The Empty Pocket Polka in a most inept manner.

Time to 'Pony Up'; answer the Queries.

1: So answer these queries: How do you Biblically define Righteous/ness; Sin; Iniquity?

2: Why does Yahshua Messiah and ALL His Apostles constantly; throughout the entire New Testament: Cite and Quote Directly from the Tanakh/Old Testament, the words of Yahweh, and Yahwehs Patriarchs and Prophets and tell everybody to Heed Them?

3: Do you deny that Yahshua HaMessiah and His Apostles were Torah Conscious and Observant Jews? If so, explain

4: Do you deny they went to the Synagogues on Yahwehs Sabbath and read from the Tanach? If so, explain.

5: Do you deny that they taught all Humans, Jews and Gentiles about Torah Consciousness and Torah Observation. If so, explain.

Bonus Query #6: You say the Patriarchs and Prophets of Yahweh are deceived; How So?

The Conclusion I have reached after exercising Due Diligence by surveying Broad Spectrums of Data Relevant to the Topic at Hand, gnosis of christianity is: Ludicrous; Deceitful and Counterproductive.

Agree or Disagree? If so, explain.


Ludicrous: It's number one Core Doctrine is: Yahweh is not the'god' of the 'new testament'. I, personally cannot think of anyother premise that is more preposterous. The Subject of every Verse of Scripture from Bereshith/genesis to Revelation is Yahweh. And ALL the Prophets only prophecied of Yahshua Messiah.

The entirety of Scripture was written by men Inspired by Yahweh, thus all Scripture is: D.R.T.R. Data Resistant To Reinterpretation. It is all interlocked and bolsters and supports itself. There is Corporate Solidarity and Univocity.

To say Yahweh is not the 'god of the 'new testament' is a gossamer assertion that does not have one Verse of Yahwehs Scripture to support it.

This is Hubris of unequaled proportions; a pissant mortal human 'thinks' they can remove Yahweh from Scripture He was the Inspiration for.


So gnosis of christianity has no Foundation to build upon. Just assertion.

Their Core Message is the Exact Same as the Serpent told Mother Eve, in Yahwehs Garden; Eden:

1:Yahweh is a Liar

2: Yahweh is not a Benevolent and Loving Father to His Creation; Humankind.

http://www.raystedman.org/genesis/0314.html

THE ENTICEMENT OF EVIL
by Ray C. Stedman

http://www.mashiyach.com/hebrew.htm



Kind Regards

[1977]

No, you are correct, Snoops. The God of the Old Testament is the Adam by which death and the "curse of the law" entered the world. The God of the New Testament is the Heavenly Adam who existed before the foundation of the world and is the perfect image of the Logos (1 Corinthians 15:47). But both are the same God.

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: (Galatians 3:13)

Epiphanius, Panarion, 30:
3.7 They too accept the Gospel according to Matthew. Like the Cerinthians and Merinthians, they too use it alone. They call it, "According to the Hebrews," and it is true to say that only Matthew put the setting forth and the preaching of the Gospel into the New Testament in the Hebrew language and alphabet.

3.8 But by now some will have replied that the Gospel of John besides, translated from Greek to Hebrew, is in the Jewish treasuries, I mean the treasuries at Tiberias. It is stored there secretly, as certain converts from Judaism have described to me in detail. (9) And not only that, but it is said that the book of the Acts of the Apostles, also translated from Greek to Hebrew, is there in the treasuries.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

'77

you are 'Trippin'

Read Heiser and get back to us/ Yahweh is not a 'god' (mighty one)

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/

Yahweh, has been incorrectly referred to as an: El, Elohim.

Heiser says: Yahweh is an Elohim(mighty one), but no other Elohim is Yahweh.

Yahweh is a Self Created Species Unique. His Only Begotten Son Yahshua haMessiah is also a: Species Unique.

Sin; Iniquity entered through Hillel, Lady Lucifer; The Mystery of Iniquity.

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/What%20is%20an%20Elohim.pdf

The Certficate of Occupancy for 'gnosis of christianity' has been Revoked.

The Book of Yahweh, from Genesis to The Revelation of Yahweh is Non-Paganic.

You are presenting the greek mystery school Logos BS. lol

We see that the term logos was defined by the Christians according to the interpretations of pagan influenced philosophers in order to promote a false pagan God-savior in the Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume 7, page 449.

LOGOS (Greek:"word,"reason, or plan"), plural logoi, in Greek philosophy and theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning. Though the concept defined by the term logos is found in Greek, Indian, Egyptian, and Persian philosophical and theological systems, it became particularly significant in Christian writings and doctrines to describe or define the role of Jesus Christ as the principle of God active in the creation and the continuation structuring of the cosmos and in revealing the divine plan of salvation to man. It thus underlies the basic Christian doctrine of the pre-existence of Jesus.
The identification of Jesus with the logos was further developed in the early church but more on the basis of Greek philosophical ideas than on Old Testament motifs.


The Religions of Ancient Greece and Babylonia, by A. H. Sayce. pages 229-230, clearly tells us that the Greek philosophical ideas were developed in Alexandria, Egypt from the pagan mystery religions.

Many of the theories of Egyptian religion, modified and transformed no doubt, have penetrated into the theology of Christian Europe, and form, as it were, part of the woof in the web of modern religious thought. Christian theology was largely organized and nurtured in the schools of Alexandria, and Alexandria was not only the meetingplace of East and West, it was also the place where the decrepit theology of Egypt was revivified by contact with the speculative philosophy of Greece.
Perhaps, however, the indebtedness of Christian theological theory to ancient Egyptian dogma is nowhere more striking than in the doctrine of the Trinity. The very terms used of it by Christian theologians meet us again in the inscriptions and papyri of Egypt.
Originally the trinity was a triad like those we find in Babylonian mythology. The triad consisted of a divine father, wife, and son.
The father became the son and the son the father through all time, and of both alike the mother was but another form.

It is from the pagan mystery religions that the Greek philosophers developed the idea of logos as The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Volume 3, page 1085, tells us:

Among the systems offering an explanation of the world in terms of the logos, there are the Mystery Religions. These cultic communities did not see their task as lying in the communication of knowledge of a scientific nature, but of mysteries to their initiates who strove for purification in the recurrent enactment of sacred actions. The Foundation for these cultic actions was Sacred Text. Among them were the cults of Dionysus, the Pytha-goreans, and the Orphic Mysteries. By means of these cults, non- Greek thought, such as in the Isis-Osiris Mysteries, which Osiris-- the logos created by Isis7 is the spiritual image of the world. Similarly in the cult of Hermes, Hermes informed his son Tat in the Sacred Text belonging to the cult, how by God's mercy, he became logos, and thus a son of God. As such, he (Hermes) brought regulation and form into world, but himself remained a mediating being between God and matter, on one side, and God and man on the other. The logos can also, however, appear as the son of Hermes, resulting in a triple (trinity) gradation: God (who is Zeus), Son (Hermes), and LOGOS.

As the Encyclopedia Judaica told us earlier, in order to bring forth the false, pagan, pre-existent God-savior, Christianity was forced to change and reinterpret the writings of Volume Two of The Holy Scriptures. The Encyclopedia Judaica admits that Yahshua and the Apostles did not break nor teach the breaking of Yahweh's Laws. But Christianity has falsely translated their words to bring forth a savior who "did away with Yahweh's Laws."


The Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 5, page 509, tells us that there is NO VALID REASON FOR DOUBTING the HISTORICAL REALITY of Yahshua.

JESUS AND HIS FIRST DISCIPLES. As has been indicated before, the teaching and activity of Jesus cannot be properly described under the heading "Christianity."
There is no valid reason for doubting his historical reality or assuming him to be a purely mythical figure.

There is, however, great reason to doubt what the Christians say about Him. As we have read and proven so far, paganism, not the Laws of Yahweh, is the driving force of Christianity. The Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 5, page 511, admits this fact.

With its spread among the gentiles, the pagan characteristics of Christianity gained in influence, and after Constantine the Great and the adoption of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire, the traditional Hellenistic-pagan forms of civic, social, and cultural anti-Semitism (see *Apion) merged with the specifically Christian theological motifs to form an amalgam that has left a tragic legacy to history.

In this tragic legacy to history left by Christianity, the most tragic has been the twisting of the Holy Scriptures to fit pagan doctrines, beliefs and philosophy; rather than allowing them to fit Yahweh's Laws and prophets, the way they were originally written. The Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 10, page 10, acknowledges that this is exactly what the church has done.

Both of the chief sources of the Synoptic Gospels, the old account, and the collection of Jesus' sayings, were produced in the primitive Christian(NAZARENE) congregation in Jerusalem, and were translated into Greek from Aramaic or Hebrew. They contained the picture of Jesus as seen by the disciples who knew him. The present Gospels are redactions of these two sources, which were often changed as a result of ecclesiastical tendentiousness.

The Interpreter's Dictionary, Volulme 4 pages 870-871, states emphatically:

"The word of God" is used of:
(a) the OT law (cf. Mark 7:13=Matt 15:6, where it is contrasted with the tradition of the Jews); (b) a particular OT passage (cf. John 10:35, referring to Ps. 82:6); (c) in a more general sense, God's revealed will, or his whole plan and purpose for mankind (cf. Luke 11:28; Rom. 9:6; Col. 1:25-27, where it is defined as the "mystery hidden for ages and generations but now manifest to his saints..., which is Christ in you"; Heb. 4:12); (d) the word preached by Jesus (cf. Luke 5:1; perhaps also 11:28, cited in c above); and the referenced made by Jesus to the word of God which he has preached (described as "his word"or "thy word," according to the context) in John 5:38; 8:55; 17:6; etc.;


So Yahchanan wrote, under inspiration, not of a pre-existent God-savior, but of the wonderful Plan of Yahweh. The Anchor Bible, Ephesians 1-3, page 111, shows us from the Talmud that seven things were in Yahweh's mind, His Plan, from the beginning and this plan included the Savior.

IN THE TALMUD tractate Pesachim 54a; cf. Nedarim 39b, seven things, i.e. the law, repentance, paradise, Gehinnom, the throne of glory, the heavenly sanctuary, and the messiah are not called pre-created, but pre-conceived in (Yahweh's) thoughts.


With all this in mind, let us read the correct translation of the following Scripture.

Yahchanan 1:1-5—
1 In the beginning was the plan of Yahweh, and the plan was with Yahweh, and the plan was Yahweh's.
2 The same plan was in the beginning with Yahweh.
3 All things were done according to it, and without it nothing was done, that was done.
4 In this plan was life, and that life was the light to mankind.
5 Now that light shines in the darkness, but the darkness does not take hold of it.

The Law of Yahweh, which Yahshua and the apostles preached, plainly tells us that Yahweh is one.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5—
4 Hear, O Israyl, Yahweh is our Father. Yahweh is one.
5 And you must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.


'gnosis of christianity' Failed because it grabbed onto a Mirage(Christianity), a Chimera of Yahwism/NazareneIsraelite. Never the authentic Doctrine.

the 'gnostic christians' only knew of a Paganized erzatz Jesus, never the Authentic Jewish Non-Paganic Yahshua.

lol

the gnostics don't gno!! lol


what you have attempted to usurp never existed at all, y'all went for the decoy!!!!

lol


Abba Yahwehs Plan proceeds apace, 'gnosis of christianity' lays dead, on the Floor.

lol

Kind Regards

[1977]

You are quoting sites that refute your own position. The Logos was a pagan concept, yes, and it was this that the Greek gospels and Pauline epistles speak of. As Epiphanius says, the only gospel originally in Hebrew was Matthew. A Hebrew "Yahchanan" does not exist and has never existed and your translation from it is wholly spurious. Your Saviour exists only within the imagination of Yisrayl Hawkins.

Moreover, YHWH, the Tetragrammaton, clearly refers to the Four Elements. YHShWH, the Messiah, is the Cross of Matter + the Fifth Element, shin, spirit.

This doctrine concerning the Logos, as also that of man made "in the likeness" ("De Confusione Linguarum," xxviii.), though tinged with true Philonic coloring, is also based on the theology of the Pharisees. For in an old Midrash (Gen. R. viii. 1) it is remarked: "'Thou hast formed me behind and before' (Ps. cxxxix. 5) is to be explained 'before the first and after the last day of Creation.' For it is said, 'And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters,' meaning the spirit of the Messiah ["the spirit of Adam" in the parallel passage, Midr. Teh. to cxxxix. 5; both readings are essentially the same], of whom it is said (Isa. xi. 2), 'And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him.'" This contains the kernel of Philo's philosophical doctrine of the creation of the original man. He calls him the idea of the earthly Adam, while with the rabbis the רוח (spirit of Adam) not only existed before the creation of the earthly Adam, but was preexistent to the whole of creation. From the preexisting Adam, or Messiah, to the Logos is merely a step.

Such is the judgment of the Jewish Encyclopedia: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=761&letter=A&search=adam%20kadmon#ixzz0ZnmEhiNA

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

You are detached from Reality. These were Pious Jewish Men, ALL Torah Conscious and Torah Observant.

Answer the Queries '77.

Read the Galatian Documents. You Pagans cannot comprehend what is happening in the Book of Yahweh.

Yahchanans understanding of Torah was so Sublime he amazed Yahshua haMessiah.

You do a discredit and disservice to very honourable and decent men who for the most part were murdered by the Pagans.

It is you who are using substandard research, not me.

Pathetic.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

by the way '77'; epiphinius was full of shit, just like marcion, carpocrates and many more.

You, kasalt, and phildee have proven how stridently deceitful 'gnostic christians' are.

Again, Pathetic.

I have provided Credentialed Scholarship to support my Position.

You have not even surveyed that Data.

Yahweh and His Torah are the Continuum.

Remember you tried to say: 'The River of Life is menstruel Flow'?


You are out to Lunch!!!

You do not even discern between what is clean and unclean.

Pathetic.

You, phil and kasalt all 'Pine' for the New Babylon, not the New Jerusalem.

Big Difference, but since y'all are devoid of discernment, you won't be able to tell anyway!

lol

[1977]

I threw you a rather large bone with Epiphanius' assertion that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, as modern scholarship largely disagrees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew#Composition).

The consensus view of the contemporary New Testament scholars is that the Gospel of Matthew was originally composed in Greek not Hebrew, and that the apostle Matthew did not write the Gospel that bears his name.

Source: Bart Ehrman, Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium, Oxford University Press, p.43. Was Epiphanius full of shit? Maybe, but he did seem to have personal contact with a Nazarene sect.

And as you have already thoroughly proven that Christianity is wholly indebted to the Mysteries, I am not sure what else to add. But the Jewish Encyclopedia shows that a "pre-existent God-savior" was not alien to Jewish thought, either.
You, phil and kasalt all 'Pine' for the New Babylon, not the New Jerusalem.
I'm reading Galatians 4:
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
The Jerusalem above is free. Why are you still pining for bondage under the Law, Snoops?

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

'77:

You persist in your Folly by extracting Verses of Scripture 'out of context'.

Galatians 3:2 completely refutes your Position. Even though I made it explicitly clear, and provided 5 Documents from Credentialed Scholars that support the Position: The Apostle Shaul is talking about the replacement of the Top Echelon of the Priesthood. FROM the Levitical with Animal and Sin Sacrifices to the Priesthood after the Order of Melchizedek.

So now it is Yahshua haMessiahthe King and High Priest of the Order of Melchizedek. Read the Documents, the Laws of YHWH have not been done away with. Homosexuality and Promiscuous Hetero-Sexual activity are still forbidden because the create and distribute diseases. :rolleyes:

We will look at the Law next. But first; lets examine the 'Severed Head of 'gnosis of christianity'.

Hebrew/Aramaic Origin of the New Testament

http://www.ltradio.org/articles/?admin=linkto&link=130&&quick=y

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

I'm Baaaaack!!!!!

'77: It is obvious to me and many others that 6 Queries are an insurmountable Challege for Zombie Christo-pagan gnostics, so let's try one, OK?

Time to 'Pony Up'; answer the Queries.

1: So answer these queries: How do you Biblically define Righteous/ness; Sin; Iniquity?

2: Why does Yahshua Messiah and ALL His Apostles constantly; throughout the entire New Testament: Cite and Quote Directly from the Tanakh/Old Testament, the words of Yahweh, and Yahwehs Patriarchs and Prophets and tell everybody to Heed Them?

3: Do you deny that Yahshua HaMessiah and His Apostles were Torah Conscious and Observant Jews? If so, explain

4: Do you deny they went to the Synagogues on Yahwehs Sabbath and read from the Tanach? If so, explain.

5: Do you deny that they taught all Humans, Jews and Gentiles about Torah Consciousness and Torah Observation. If so, explain.

Bonus Query #6: You say the Patriarchs and Prophets of Yahweh are deceived; How So?

The Conclusion I have reached after exercising Due Diligence by surveying Broad Spectrums of Data Relevant to the Topic at Hand, gnosis of christianity is: Ludicrous; Deceitful and Counterproductive.

Agree or Disagree? If so, explain.


Ludicrous: It's number one Core Doctrine is: Yahweh is not the'god' of the 'new testament'. I, personally cannot think of anyother premise that is more preposterous. The Subject of every Verse of Scripture from Bereshith/genesis to Revelation is Yahweh. And ALL the Prophets only prophecied of Yahshua Messiah.

The entirety of Scripture was written by men Inspired by Yahweh, thus all Scripture is: D.R.T.R. Data Resistant To Reinterpretation. It is all interlocked and bolsters and supports itself. There is Corporate Solidarity and Univocity.

To say Yahweh is not the 'god of the 'new testament' is a gossamer assertion that does not have one Verse of Yahwehs Scripture to support it.

So just answer #2. New Testament Use of the Old Testament
by Roger Nicole

http://www.bible-researcher.com/nicole.html

Table of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, in English translation

http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTCHART.HTM

Hebrew Tanakh

A Hebrew - English Bible
According to the Masoretic Text
and the JPS 1917 Edition

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm

This provides the Tetragrammaton in Cited Verses in the New Testament.


This Data here completely REFUTES the Zombie Christo-pagan Gnostics Contention that: 'Yahweh is not the'god' of the New Testament'.

I have thought very long and hard, researched hundreds of Hours, and I, personally, cannot think of a more Idiotic Contention. It is 100% pure unadulterated BS.

So answer Query #2.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

'77

Please allow me to burst another of your Idiotic Bubbles:

'77: The Jerusalem above is free. Why are you still pining for bondage under the Law, Snoops?

Not True.

Galatians proves that we should observe the Torah

http://www.eliyah.com/galatianskjv.html

http://www.eliyah.com/tetragrm.html

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?t=HNV&b=Rev&c=22&v=1&x=0&y=0

Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work.


Rev 22:13 I am the Alef and the Tav, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do his mitzvot, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.


Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


Rev 22:16 I, Yeshua, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star."


Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" He who hears, let him say, "Come!" He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires, let him take the water of life freely.


Rev 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book.


Rev 22:19 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.


Rev 22:20 He who testifies these things says, "Yes, I come quickly." Amein! Yes, come, Lord Yeshua.


Rev 22:21 The grace of the Lord Yeshua the Messiah be with all the holy ones. Amein.


'77 Yahwehs talkin' 2 u. Pay attention.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

A few more things u r unaware of, or are aware of and deliberately ignore.

John P Meier--- A Marginal Jew

Page 2 Volume lV

'Yahshua presumed to teach His coreligionists how to observe the Mosaic Law Properly.'

You are also unaware that Yahshua haMessiah and His Apostles
ALL wore Tallits. ;)


Ignorance is a steep hill with perilous rocks at the bottom.

Sheik Snoopsnuffleopagus the Magnificent


Chazuz Yahshua Hamashiach ashar natan lu ha Yahweh Abim bayid malaku laobadu Yahchanan

The Revelation of Yahweh our Father through Yahshua haMessiah His Son given to Yahchanan by the Malakh.

The Name of YAHWEH

http://www.mashiyach.com/Meditate/name.htm

HaShem

YAHWEH:
The Name Above All Names

http://www.yahweh.com/NAME/theName2.html


'77, I am quite certain you are well read in all the Mystery Schools and early 'church fathers'. So am I, and as I have found out that they are full of shit, so shall you............:)

[1977]

2: Why does Yahshua Messiah and ALL His Apostles constantly; throughout the entire New Testament: Cite and Quote Directly from the Tanakh/Old Testament, the words of Yahweh, and Yahwehs Patriarchs and Prophets and tell everybody to Heed Them?
Why does Iesous Christos and ALL His Apostles constantly; throughout the entire New Testament: Cite and Quote Directly from the Greek Septuagint?

This link you provided proves it! http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTCHART.HTM
'77:

You persist in your Folly by extracting Verses of Scripture 'out of context'.
This seems to be the overall design of your eliyah.com, to torture out of the text the exact opposite of the meaning intended. The rest of your sources are merely second-hand apologetics.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Why does Iesous Christos and ALL His Apostles constantly; throughout the entire New Testament: Cite and Quote Directly from the Greek Septuagint?

This link you provided proves it! http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTCHART.HTM

This seems to be the overall design of your eliyah.com, to torture out of the text the exact opposite of the meaning intended. The rest of your sources are merely second-hand apologetics.

wrong again, '77. The Original Texts were all in the Lashon haKodesh of the Hebrew Peoples. Then translated into Aramaic and Greek.

Answer Query #2

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

CERTIFICATE of DEATH

December 12, 2009

ME reports:
'Gnosis of Christianity' was found in state of Post-Mortem in the Gnosticism Thread, Religion Forum, David Icke Message Board.

Cause of Death: Decapitation

could not honestly answer 6 Queries.

[kasalt]

wrong again, '77. The Original Texts were all in...Hebrew.. Then translated into Aramaic and Greek."The Greek context and style of the letters of Paul have been probed and analyzed in detail, confirming that the whole of Paul's letters reflect the literary forms of Greek rhetoric and writing style and the oral patterns of classical Greek drama and philosophy."
See here for details: http://orvillejenkins.com/languages/jesusandhebrew.html


Once again, from the Jewish Encyclopedia:"[Paul's] quotations from Scripture, which are all taken, directly or from memory, from the Greek version, betray no familiarity with the original Hebrew text."
-- Read more: http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=283&letter=S&search=Paul%20of%20Tarsus#964#ixzz0YPTS71MY"The Greek of the gospel as we know it does not read like ‘translation Greek’, and the close literary relationship of Matthew with the (Greek) gospels of Mark and Luke makes its origin in any other language unlikely."
-- http://www.bible.ca/jw-YHWH-hebrew-matthew.htm

"All the authors of the New Testament appear to have written in the Greek language. That this tongue was already familiar to them as a vehicle to express God's inspired Word is evident from their frequent use of the Greek translation, the Septuagint, in quoting the Old Testament and from the remarkable accordance of their style with the style of that ancient and precious version."
-- http://ecclesia.org/truth/septuagint.html

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

lol@u!!

what an yutz! lol!

what exactly are you trying to prove, I wiped out your bullshit gnosis of christianity and your vain attempt to paganize the Book of Yahweh.

You found some liars to support your position, I rely on peoples common sense and ability to think for themselves.

The Apostle Shaul was raised in Jerusalem from age three, enrolled at the School of Hillel and Tutored by Gamiliel all in the Hebrew Language.

Hebrew was Yahshuas and His Apostles first Language. all the liars in the world will never change that.

Answer Query #2


:D

http://www.bible-researcher.com/nicole.html

Hebrew New Testament?

http://www.search-the-scriptures.org/hebrew_new_testament.htm

There are other scholars who have researched the origin of the New Testament, and I want to share some of that information with you. It will show you why I think the idea of an “original, inspired Greek New Testament is a huge mistake that has caused millions of people, including most of us, to misunderstand much of the New Testament, to our hurt. Much evidence has come to light within the past 20 years or so that points convincingly in that direction. I would like to share some of this information with you.

YHWH said that in the latter days knowledge would increase. And it has, hasn’t it? We know far more about early-day conditions and customs now than our predecessors did. Remember that the Greeks were pagans and the Jews considered the Greek language an abomination. The Jewish authorities declared that it was worse to learn the Greek language than to eat swine’s flesh! And they forbad the teaching of it.

Answer this:
So why would Yahweh inspire them to write His Son’s biography of the greatest life ever lived, and the greatest event since Creation, in a language that the Jews hated, and that the apostles could not have known? Doesn’t make sense, does it?

The actual Forensic Evidence Refutes Your Position:

So, to sum up, when all factors are considered, the evidence seems overwhelming in favor of the New Testament having been first written in Hebrew/Aramaic, and later translated into Greek, in a word-for-word format. This method of translation would make it extremely difficult to ascertain the correct meaning intended by the speaker or writer. Obviously, later on, the originals were lost, as were the original Greek translations. So all that is left are copies of copies. However, there are at least two Hebrew versions of Matthew’s Gospel, the Shem Tob and the Du Tillet.

This subject is in the process of on-going discovery, and more confirmation may be forthcoming in the future. In the meantime, be very skeptical of claims for an “inspired Greek New Testament.” (By Frank Brown) ~

Scholars Who Support A Hebrew Original New Testament
Following is a listing of some linguistic and Biblical authorities who maintain or support a belief in a Hebrew origin of the New Testament:

Matthew Black, An Aramaic Approach to the Gospels and Acts, third edition, entirety.

D. Bivin and R. B. Blizzard, Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus, entirety.

E. W. Bullinger, The Companion Bible, Appendix 95.

Dr. F. C. Burkitt, The Earliest Sources for the Life of Jesus, pp. 25, 29.

Prof. C. F. Burney, The Aramaic Origin of the Fourth Gospel, entirety.

Epiphanius, Panarion 29:9:4 on Matthew.

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, III 24:6 and 39:18; V8:2; VI 25:4.

Edward Gibbon, History of Christianity, two footnotes on p. 185.

Dr. Frederick C. Grant, Roman Hellenism and the New Testament, p. 14.

Dr. George Howard, The Tetragram and the New Testament in Journal of Biblical Literature, vol. 96/1 (1977), 63-83. Also, Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, entirety.

Dr. George Lamsa, The Holy Bible from Ancient Eastern Manuscripts, Introduction, pp. IX-XII.

Dr. Alfred F. Loisy, The Birth of the Christian Religion and the Origin of the New Testament, pp. 66, 68.

Dr. Isaac Rabinowitz, Ephphata...in Journal of Semitic Studies vol. XVI (1971), pp. 151-156.

Ernest Renan, The Life of Jesus, pp. 90, 92.

Hugh J. Schonfield, An Old Hebrew Text of St. Matthew's Gospel, (1927) p. 7.

Dr. Albert Schweitzer, The Quest of the Historical Jesus, p. 275.

R. B. Y. Scott, The Original Language of the Apocalypse, entirety.

Prof. Charles C. Torrey, Documents of the Primitive Church, entirety. Also, Our Translated Gospels, entirety.

Dr. James Scott Trimm, The Semitic Origin of the New Testament, entirety.

Max Woolcox, The Semitism of Acts (1965), entirety.

F. Zimmerman, The Aramaic Origin of the Four Gospels, entirety.

Semitic Origins of the New Testament

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/49_home.html

The New Testament, or B'riyt HaHhadashah in Hebrew, was written by Hebrews, for Hebrews, in an Hebraic Culture. In order to truely understand the New Testament it must be understood through its original Hebraic context. While the only manuscripts known to exist are in Greek (with the possible exception of the book of Matthew) the evidence suggests that much of it was originally written in Hebrew and afterwards translated into Greek.


Archaeological Evidence: Disoveries in the land of Israel is showing that Hebrew was the langauge of Israel during the Second Temple Period.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/49_arch.html


Jewish perception of the Greek language and culture: Jewish writings reflecting their view of Greek.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/49_perception.html



Semitic origins of the Book of Matthew: Quotes from the "Church Fathers" concerning the Hebrew original of the book of Matthew.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/49_matthew.html

Hebrew Words: A selection of Hebrew words found in the Greek translation of the New Testament.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/49_hebrew.html

Hebrew in First Century CE Israel: Modern studies in linguistics has proven that Hebrew was the language of Israel in the first century.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/49_firstcenturyce.html

Which language did Yeshua and his Disciples communicate?

http://www.mashiyach.com/hebrew.htm

Is the New Testament Jewish? by Catherine Damato

http://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/10_5/newtestament

http://www.historian.net/NTHX.html

Jesus' name in his own Aramaic language was Y'shua bar Yosef (Ye-SHOO-ah bar Yo-SEF). He spoke Aramaic when he preached or had conversations with his family, friends, and disciples. He would have used Hebrew in conversations with religious leaders and is recorded in the Gospels reading the Hebrew scriptures of Isaiah in the synagogue at Nazareth (Lk. 4:16-19). As a tradesman, working with his father and brothers on various building projects, he would have had to have some knowledge of Greek, the language of commerce. It is debated by scholars whether or not he was fluent in Greek or used it for any purpose outside of trade. It is this author's belief that he was well-educated, functioned well in Hellenistic surroundings, and probably was fluent but may have considered it the "gentile tongue" and eschewed it for common usage.

What type of Aramaic did Jesus speak? Aramaic ceased to be a uniform language during the anti-Semitic period of the Hellenistic Seleucids prior to the Maccabean revolt. During this period various dialects began to form on a regional basis, each with variations in pronunciation and vocabulary. These influences caused Aramaic to divide into a Western Branch with several dialects and an Eastern Branch with its dialects. The five periods of Aramaic, dating from 1000 B.C.E., are as follows: Old Aramaic 1000 BCE to 700 BCE.
Imperial (Official) Aramaic 700 BCE to 200 BCE.
Middle Aramaic 200 BCE to 200 CE.
Late Aramaic 200 CE to 700 CE.
Modern Aramaic 700 CE to present

Jesus spoke the Galilean dialect of Middle Western Aramaic. The Galilean dialect was recognizable by Judeans much as a deep south dialect of English is recognized in the United States. Likewise, the Galilean dialect was considered provincial by the Judeans. Galileans had a tendency to drop the gutturals much like the Cockney "Enry" for Henry. An initial aleph was usually dropped, which explains why Jesus' good friend Alazar was called `Lazar by Jesus and eventually Latinized in the Vulgate to Lazarus. It is also why Simon Peter was recognized as a Galilean outside of the house of Caiaphas.

After a little while the men standing there came to Peter. "Of course you are one of them," they said. "After all, the way you speak gives you away!" Matthew 16:73

[kasalt]

The Apostle Shaul was raised in Jerusalem from age three, enrolled at the School of Hillel and Tutored by Gamiliel all in the Hebrew Language.

If Saul was truly a student of Gamaliel, as is claimed in Acts 22:3-4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2022:3-4;&version=KJV;), then how is it that he found himself hunting down and persecuting Christians? We are clearly told in the Book of Acts that Gamaliel warned against condemning the Christians, "lest haply ye be found even to fight against God" (Acts 5:34-42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%205:34-42;&version=9;)). If Gamaliel warned against persecuting Christians, and Saul supposedly was a dutiful, strictly obedient student who learned "at the feet of Gamaliel", then how was it possible that Saul found himself murdering Christians?

As the Jewish Encyclopedia observes:

"Nor is there any indication in Paul's writings or arguments that he had received the rabbinical training ascribed to him by Christian writers, ancient and modern; least of all could he have acted or written as he did had he been, as is alleged, the disciple of Gamaliel I., the mild Hillelite." -- http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=S&artid=283#964

The New Testament, or B'riyt HaHhadashah in Hebrew, was written by Hebrews, for Hebrews, in an Hebraic Culture. In order to truely understand the New Testament it must be understood through its original Hebraic context. While the only manuscripts known to exist are in Greek (with the possible exception of the book of Matthew) the evidence suggests that much of it was originally written in Hebrew and afterwards translated into Greek.

First of all, the majority of the New Testament was not written "for Hebrews". On the contrary, the majority of it was specifically addressed to non-Jewish Greeks (many of Paul's letters, for example). These people weren't even Diaspora Jews, they were Greek gentiles, so of course they spoke Greek. They certainly didn't speak Aramaic, let alone Hebrew. Paul also spoke Greek, so your contention that Paul wrote his letters first in Hebrew, then translated them into Aramaic, and then translated again into Greek before shipping them off is patently absurd."While the only manuscripts known to exist are in Greek (with the possible exception of the book of Matthew)..."
What do you mean by, "with the possible exception of the book of Matthew"? Either a Hebrew manuscript of Matthew exists or it doesn't, full stop."...the evidence suggests that much of it was originally written in Hebrew and afterwards translated into Greek".
That's weak sauce indeed. Here you are, trying to insist that all of the New Testament was originally written in Hebrew, and then you post this copy-and-paste which says that the evidence only "suggests" it. Suggestions are not proof. And not only that, but your quote only suggests that "much of it" was in Hebrew, so what about the rest of it that by implication wasn't written in Hebrew? You tell me, which part of the New Testament wasn't originally written in Hebrew? After all, it's your quote!

Jewish perception of the Greek language and culture: Jewish writings reflecting their view of Greek.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/49_perception.html

REBUTTAL: The claim that the Jews hated the Greeks so much that they also hated the Greek language and refused speak it is, of course, rubbish. First of all, there is the Greek Septuagint--and that wasn't the only time that the Jews translated the Tanakh into Greek. Even some of the Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Greek. Forty percent of Jewish funerary inscriptions from the first century period (before 70 C.E.) were written in Greek. And these are just a few of many examples of Jews using the Greek language that I could list. Considering these things, I think it's safe to say that the majority of Jews did not in fact "hate" the Greek language or refuse to speak it. In fact:"Rabbi Simon ben Gamaliel said that Greek was the only language into which the Torah could be accurately translated."
Source: http://www.theopedia.com/Septuagint

And regarding that quote from Josephus about his nation "not encouraging those that learn the language of many nations", first of all, Josephus was not a Diaspora Jew, but the majority of Jews during the time of Josephus were diaspora Jews, and they all spoke Greek (and/or some other foreign language) fluently.

As Rabbi Shraga Simmons explains:"Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi."
Source: http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Jews_Dont_Believe_In_Jesus.asp

The majority of Jews lived outside of Israel during the time of Jesus, hence they were called "Hellenistic" or Greek-speaking Jews.

Secondly, Josephus was a Palestinian Jew and a Sadducee, which would have been all the more reason for his apparently conservative stance. But he was in the minority, even among the Palestinian Jewish population. His experience was not representative of the average, rank-and-file Jewish population. Josephus was from a minority within a minority, and his comments largely reflect the difficulty and frustration he was having with learning Greek at that point in his life, but that wasn't true for most Jews of his day.

Semitic origins of the Book of Matthew: Quotes from the "Church Fathers" concerning the Hebrew original of the book of Matthew.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/49_matthew.html

REBUTTAL: Matthew's "Gospel of the Hebrews" is not the same book as the gospel of Matthew that we find in our New Testaments today. They were two separate gospels. The Hebrew gospel attributed to Matthew was not a translation of the Greek gospel which also bares his name. Although a good deal of their content was undoubtedly similar, they were still different Gospels in much the same way as Mark, Luke, and John are different gospels. See for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_according_to_the_Hebrews#Content

Matthew's "Gospel of the Hebrews" is no longer extant. The only quotations we have from it today are in the quotations made from it by various Church Fathers, and we can see from these quotes that the content of Matthew's two gospels differed on a number of points, which is proof that the two gospels were not the same and that Matthew's Greek gospel was not a direct translation of his Hebrew gospel.

Hebrew Words: A selection of Hebrew words found in the Greek translation of the New Testament.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/49_hebrew.html

Just because a few words are in Hebrew doesn't mean that the whole thing was in Hebrew. Comprende? Just like because a few of my words are Spanish doesn't mean that it's all in Spanish.

Hebrew in First Century CE Israel: Modern studies in linguistics has proven that Hebrew was the language of Israel in the first century.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/49_firstcenturyce.html

Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew were all in use among the various Jews of that time, hence their use of the Targum (Aramaic), the Septuagint (Greek), and the Tanakh (Hebrew). So it wasn't just Hebrew, not by a long-shot:"In Jerusalem itself about 40 percent of the Jewish inscriptions from the first century period (before 70 C.E.) are in Greek."
--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Primacy#cite_note-1

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

lol@u

Answer Question #2; Loser

[eternal_spirit]

ROLF @ U SNOOPS I think Kasalt brings some good info to counter your Yahweh propaganda :D

You never answered my questions on the is Yawheh good thread.

PS have fun with Alan Watt if you can get a reply from him.

[1977]

http://www.ntgreek.org/answers/nt_written_in_greek.htm

The September-October 1992 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review contains several fascinating articles which bear heavily on the questions posed for this article. For centuries, scholars have believed -- assumed -- that very few Jews of the first century spoke Greek. They have believed, and taught, that ancient Judea was a "backwater" area of the Roman Empire, and the people were ignorant as a whole of the Greek language, although it is admitted that Greek was the "lingua franca" and "language of commerce" throughout the Roman Empire.

Today, however, new archaeological discoveries have undermined the speculations of scholars and brought into clear light the fact that Greek was well known among the Jews, especially the priesthood, leadership class, and the merchant class. In particular, Greek was well understood in "Galilee of the Gentiles," the region where Jesus Christ of Nazareth was raised, and grew up as a young lad. There is no doubt, therefore, that Jesus and the original apostles all spoke Greek -- commonly, as a "second language."...

"One of the most surprising facts about these funerary inscriptions is that most of them are IN GREEK -- approximately 70 percent; about 12 percent are in Latin; and only 18 percent are in Hebrew or Aramaic.

"These figures are even more instructive if we break them down between Palestine and the Diaspora. Naturally in Palestine we would expect more Hebrew and Aramaic and less Greek. This is true, but not to any great extent. Even in Palestine approximately TWO-THIRDS of these inscriptions are in GREEK.

"APPARENTLY FOR A GREAT PART OF THE JEWISH POPULATION THE DAILY LANGUAGE WAS GREEK, EVEN IN PALESTINE. This is impressive testimony to the impact of Hellenistic culture on Jews in their mother country, to say nothing of the Diaspora.

"In Jerusalem itself about 40 PERCENT of the Jewish inscriptions from the first century period (before 70 C.E.) ARE IN GREEK. We may assume that most Jewish Jerusalemites who saw the inscriptions in situ were able to read them" ("Jewish Funerary Inscriptions -- Most Are in Greek," Pieter W. Van Der Horst, BAR, Sept.-Oct.1992, p.48)....
The earliest fragments of the NT are found not in Palestine, but Egypt, home of Isis and Osiris and the largest Hellenized Jewish community.
Luke the physician, who wrote the gospel of Luke and the book of Acts, was a highly trained physician who evidently was trained in his craft at Alexandria, Egypt. He addresses his gospel to the "most excellent Theophilus" (Luke 1:3), as he does also the book of Acts (Acts 1:1). Theophilus, from his name, was undoubtedly a Greek. The gospel of Luke and book of Acts were undoubtedly written by Luke in the Greek language.
And a question is raised—
Wouldn't it seem awfully strange that if God only intended all mankind to use only the Hebrew names of God and the Messiah, that He Himself divided all mankind into many language groups at the tower of Babel? Wouldn't it also seem strange that this same God, who created mankind, and later gave him different languages (Gen.11), required that in order to receive salvation one would have to know, and pronounce "correctly," the Hebrew name of God and Christ -- and that ONLY THE HEBREW PRONUNCIATION WOULD SAVE ANYBODY?

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Because your Premise of 'gnosis of christianity' is untenable Biblicaly, Historicaly, and Scientificaly.

As I have already shown: Yahweh is the Creator Being, THE 'God' from Genesis to The Revelation of Yahweh...

And the Message of 'gnosis of christianity' is exactly the same as the Serpent in Yahwehs Garden, Eden. A Message of Deception.

For you to Honestly answer my queries would cause you, yourself, to refute your own Ideology reveal it to be a Fantasy.



And that is all you do consistently, oppose Truth. Answer my Queries; Honestly.



He only rejected the Rabbinical Traditions, not Yahwehs Torah. I have provided overwhelming Proof of that.

Again: Did The Apostle Shaul Do Away With Yahweh's Law?
http://www.yahweh.com/Booklets/Shaul/DoAway.htm





The Apostle Shaul/Paul was a Highly Educated and Sophisticated man who was well aware of the Hellenic/Paganic Schools of Thought, and he refuted them and pointed to Yahweh as the Only True Living Source of Power. Without the barest shadow of a doubt, Shaul was Torah Conscious and Torah Observant. Explain why Shaul 'Schooled' the Stoics and Epicureans at the Temple of the Unknown God in the Areopagus. You also fail to realise Shaul did not just write a Letter and deliver it himself. All the writings of the Renewed Covenant/nt except fot the Revelation of Yahweh.. were Corporate Documents with strict oversight from the Elders in Jerusalem.

From this Document:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat2.html

Question Four: Where there any public 'checks and balances' that would have hindered publication of these views(hellenic/paganic) by the early Christian community, even if a lone NT author would have accepted them?
.................................................. ................................................





This, plus the: 'Was Shaul a Middle-Platonists totaly refutes your Position. Read it and weep. Your Lamentations are music to my ears.

lol

Questions on Paul, Jesus, and Middle Platonism

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/muddleplatonismx1.html






Not surprising a 'christian gnosticist would consider a Failed Post an excellent Post. lol


READ THIS:

http://www.thirdmill.org/paul/areopagus.asp/category/life

[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]Pagan Poets and Biblical Parallels



Better get reading! Saddle Up!!


Kind Regards



Ladies & Gentlemen; Felicitous Salutations:

More then 1 year + A Grace Period has passed since I first challenged kasalt & phildee to answer six simple queries. They have not.

Instead they mince out to the Dance Floor emptyhanded, emptyheaded and perform The Empty Pocket Polka in a most inept manner.

Time to 'Pony Up'; answer the Queries.

1: So answer these queries: How do you Biblically define Righteous/ness; Sin; Iniquity?

2: Why does Yahshua Messiah and ALL His Apostles constantly; throughout the entire New Testament: Cite and Quote Directly from the Tanakh/Old Testament, the words of Yahweh, and Yahwehs Patriarchs and Prophets and tell everybody to Heed Them?

3: Do you deny that Yahshua HaMessiah and His Apostles were Torah Conscious and Observant Jews? If so, explain

4: Do you deny they went to the Synagogues on Yahwehs Sabbath and read from the Tanach? If so, explain.

5: Do you deny that they taught all Humans, Jews and Gentiles about Torah Consciousness and Torah Observation. If so, explain.

Bonus Query #6: You say the Patriarchs and Prophets of Yahweh are deceived; How So?

The Conclusion I have reached after exercising Due Diligence by surveying Broad Spectrums of Data Relevant to the Topic at Hand, gnosis of christianity is: Ludicrous; Deceitful and Counterproductive.

[B]Agree or Disagree? If so, explain.


Ludicrous: It's number one Core Doctrine is: Yahweh is not the'god' of the 'new testament'. I, personally cannot think of anyother premise that is more preposterous. The Subject of every Verse of Scripture from Bereshith/genesis to Revelation is Yahweh. And ALL the Prophets only prophecied of Yahshua Messiah.

The entirety of Scripture was written by men Inspired by Yahweh, thus all Scripture is: D.R.T.R. Data Resistant To Reinterpretation. It is all interlocked and bolsters and supports itself. There is Corporate Solidarity and Univocity.

To say Yahweh is not the 'god of the 'new testament' is a gossamer assertion that does not have one Verse of Yahwehs Scripture to support it.

This is Hubris of unequaled proportions; a pissant mortal human 'thinks' they can remove Yahweh from Scripture He was the Inspiration for.


So gnosis of christianity has no Foundation to build upon. Just assertion.

Their Core Message is the Exact Same as the Serpent told Mother Eve, in Yahwehs Garden; Eden:

1:Yahweh is a Liar

2: Yahweh is not a Benevolent and Loving Father to His Creation; Humankind.

http://www.raystedman.org/genesis/0314.html

THE ENTICEMENT OF EVIL
by Ray C. Stedman

http://www.mashiyach.com/hebrew.htm



Kind Regards

lol

what you do not understand is Typology.

You do not understand the Terms: Corporate Solidarity and Univocity

You do not understand The Principle of First Mention or PARDES

You do not understand the Concept of: Checks & Balances

ERGO: It is impossible for the Apostle Shaul to Transmit Paganic Doctrine.

You have mis-understood Shaul 'couching' his Biblical Revelatory Data in 'Paganic Motifs' as Shaul endorsing Paganic Doctrine.

What impressed the Pagans was Shauls Revelation of Yahwehs True Glory and Power, which was more impressive, beautiful than their Paganic Doctrines of the lifeless gods the Pagans served.



Second, Bruce notes that the "letter was written to Christians while the speech was delivered to pagans." (Bruce, 244) The reader must bear in mind that Paul's speech in Acts 17 should probably be viewed more as pre-evangelism than evangelism per se. (Carson, et al., Bruce, 245) Karl O. Sandnes suggests that the speech is insinuatio, employing this rhetorical technique to make an indirect appeal for the purpose of introducing the Gospel, rather that propositio . Sandnes observes that "the intention of the this strategy was to promote curiosity and elicit questions." (Sandnes, 1993, 25)



Did you see that? 'Couching' Biblical Revelation in terms Pagans can understand.

Notice the Checks & Balances in Jerusalem by the Elders of the Congregation.









HERE"S THE BOTTOMLINE WHICH REFUTES THE PROPOSITION OF A PAGANIC APOSTLE SHAUL



The Apostle Shaul was a Torah Conscious and Observant Servant of Abba Yahweh and Yahshua haMessiah

http://www.yahweh.com/Booklets/Shaul/DoAway.htm

You cannot successfully separate Yahshua haMessiah or any of Yahshua handpicked Disciples from Yahweh.

phil, for any human on Earth to violate one of Yahwehs Laws is a Transgression, a Sin. This is why certain deceptions impede Humanitys understanding. The renewed Covenant is Yahwehs Book. Yahshua haMessiah and His Handpicked Disciples are all Torah Conscious and Torah Observant Servants of Yahweh, Teaching Torah.

To say otherwise is deception, achieved only by twisting and perverting Scripture.

The big lie is that Torah has been done away with.

That is a Lie.

http://www.yahweh.com/PWMags/PW12-04/search.htm






phil, that Law about Lighting a Fire on the Sabbath refers to not letting any circumstance incite you to Anger, and maybe that discipline you learn will spread to other days of the week also.

not what you thought it was, is it? :rolleyes:
























What the heck are they talking about here? :rolleyes:

Y'all gotta' get up to speed!!


K?

Tired Of Living On Shankbones?
By Rabbi/Rabbi/Brother Moshe Yoseph Koniuchowsky

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/articles/?page=shankbones&type=8
Carnal men are always willing to sacrifice their lives to religious traditions of men, carnal talk, entertainment, TV, carnal movies, power, fame, fortune, prestige of position and use carnal influences to advance themselves. These things steal from the common good of man, everyone suffers in the end. The Kingdom of Mashiyach is a refuge from the carnal world, we are in the world but not of it, however religion teaches you can have both.

POWER

"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask,

it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matthew 18:19-20


"Speak not evil one of another, brethren.

He that speaks evil of his brother, and judges his brother,

speaks evil of the Torah, and judges the Torah:

but if you judge the Torah,

you art not a doer of the Torah, but a judge."

Originally Posted by snoopsnuffleopagus
As the Function of the Torah is to instruct ones' Soul asto what is Righteous as compared to Sinful; 613 Laws; Judgements and Statutes were provided. Alot of Science is included. Obedience to YHWHs Laws, Judgements and Statutes does not 'Justify' a person, but it does lead to 'Blessings' as opposed to 'Curses'.

Blessings being Peace of Mind, good health, prosperity and so forth.

Curses being Disease, anxieties, 'want'....

Examine these Laws because they are the Granitic Bedrock Foundation of the 'Faith' of the Patriarchs, Matriarchs, Prophets, Yahshua haMashiach and His Apostles.

The choice is Freewill: Choose Blessings or Curses

Overview:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/613.htm

248 Positive Commandments:

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/e0001.htm

365 Negative Commandments

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/e0002.htm

These Laws; Judgements and Statutes provide specificity asto daily activities, and if heeded, eliminates alot of 'problems'.

The Book of Yahweh can be considered a 'Closed Set', as far as information provided.

Moshe stated unequivocaly that he wrote down ALL the Words YHWH spoke. Witheld nothing.

The so-called Oral Torah is a construct of man.

Yahshua haMashiach declared He revealed ALL.

That He said nothing in secret.

And that He said and did all that His Father(Abba) Yahweh told Him to do and say.

So with a Closed Set of information, anyone, who so desires, may understand this Book.]

Many critics proclaim the Book of Yahweh is inconsistent, incoherent, contradictory.

They are erroneously informed.

The Book of Yahweh is about the Torah, from the 3rd Verse of Genesis to the Last Verse of Revelation.

The Book is entirely about Torah Consciousness and Torah Observance, written by Jews who were Torah Conscious and Observant.

The Torah Conscious and Observant are the Children of the Light; those who are not are the Children of the Dark.

So Torah and all the rest of the Scriptures is Instruction
for ALL Humankind.

First to the Yahdai(jew), and then to the Greek(gentile).

Yahshua haMashiach is considered to be the Torah in the Flesh, the Walking Torah. The Ultimate example.

This has been YHWHs plan from the beginning. To teach Humankind the Path to Peace.

http://www.thepathtolife.com/PathtoLife.pdf

THE TORAH, DONE AWAY? 4-8-05 Edition
http://www.tntrevealed.org/radioshow.cfm?c=5&l=4

"Not Subject to the Law of GOD?"

Part 7. Historical Reality Concerning What Yahushua and His Followers Believed
http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id47.html

When Did the Disciples of Yahshua (Jesus) Stop Observing the Torah (Old Testament Laws)?

http://webdesign97.tripod.com/nazareneisraelites/id64.html


I got lots more, y'all are very, very, very, incorrect in your views. I suggest y'all get 'Recalibrated'

Good Luck with that!!!

Kind Regards

Let us examine the Historical Record: phil, '77; and kslt all were promoting the 'gnosis of christianity' Doctrine which has been proven to be False. This is indicitive of their Levels of Discernment and Judgement, which is: 'Piss Poor; non-Existant.

So what makes you think your Discernment is anybetter regarding this matter?

It is not, your agenda is to Paganize that which is not paganic.

'gnosis of christianity' is dead, what do you say about that?

I may start a Thread about The All That Is; that would prove entertaining and amusing, doncha' think?

Answer my Queries!

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Ladies & Gentlemen; Felicitous Salutations:

More then 1 year + A Grace Period has passed since I first challenged kasalt & phildee to answer six simple queries. They have not.

Instead they mince out to the Dance Floor emptyhanded, emptyheaded and perform The Empty Pocket Polka in a most inept manner.

Time to 'Pony Up'; answer the Queries.

1: So answer these queries: How do you Biblically define Righteous/ness; Sin; Iniquity?

2: Why does Yahshua Messiah and ALL His Apostles constantly; throughout the entire New Testament: Cite and Quote Directly from the Tanakh/Old Testament, the words of Yahweh, and Yahwehs Patriarchs and Prophets and tell everybody to Heed Them?

3: Do you deny that Yahshua HaMessiah and His Apostles were Torah Conscious and Observant Jews? If so, explain

4: Do you deny they went to the Synagogues on Yahwehs Sabbath and read from the Tanach? If so, explain.

5: Do you deny that they taught all Humans, Jews and Gentiles about Torah Consciousness and Torah Observation. If so, explain.

Bonus Query #6: You say the Patriarchs and Prophets of Yahweh are deceived; How So?

The Conclusion I have reached after exercising Due Diligence by surveying Broad Spectrums of Data Relevant to the Topic at Hand, gnosis of christianity is: Ludicrous; Deceitful and Counterproductive.

Agree or Disagree? If so, explain.


Ludicrous: It's number one Core Doctrine is: Yahweh is not the'god' of the 'new testament'. I, personally cannot think of anyother premise that is more preposterous. The Subject of every Verse of Scripture from Bereshith/genesis to Revelation is Yahweh. And ALL the Prophets only prophecied of Yahshua Messiah.

The entirety of Scripture was written by men Inspired by Yahweh, thus all Scripture is: D.R.T.R. Data Resistant To Reinterpretation. It is all interlocked and bolsters and supports itself. There is Corporate Solidarity and Univocity.

To say Yahweh is not the 'god of the 'new testament' is a gossamer assertion that does not have one Verse of Yahwehs Scripture to support it.

This is Hubris of unequaled proportions; a pissant mortal human 'thinks' they can remove Yahweh from Scripture He was the Inspiration for.


So gnosis of christianity has no Foundation to build upon. Just assertion.

Their Core Message is the Exact Same as the Serpent told Mother Eve, in Yahwehs Garden; Eden:

1:Yahweh is a Liar

2: Yahweh is not a Benevolent and Loving Father to His Creation; Humankind.

http://www.raystedman.org/genesis/0314.html

THE ENTICEMENT OF EVIL
by Ray C. Stedman

http://www.mashiyach.com/hebrew.htm



Kind Regards

Here they are; Pony Up!!



:)

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Wouldn't it seem awfully strange that if God only intended all mankind to use only the Hebrew names of God and the Messiah, that He Himself divided all mankind into many language groups at the tower of Babel? Wouldn't it also seem strange that this same God, who created mankind, and later gave him different languages (Gen.11), required that in order to receive salvation one would have to know, and pronounce "correctly," the Hebrew name of God and Christ -- and that ONLY THE HEBREW PRONUNCIATION WOULD SAVE ANYBODY?
[/indent]

gotta get your nose out of your fantasy books and read some good stuff! ;)

TORAH FOR ALL ISRAELITE NATIONS
http://www.yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=26&type=12

http://www.yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/restoration/?page=home&type=2

The National Revelation to a mixed multitude; The Tribes and Gentiles.
http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_faith.htm

Yahweh is so far ahead of y'all it is beyond your discernment. '77, first you have to understand WHY YHWH confused mans languages at Babel=Gate of Confusion; then y'all have to Define and Understand: Lashon haKodesh.

lol

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

http://www.mashiyach.com/hebrew.htm

Which language did Yeshua and his Disciples communicate?

Most agree on the basic developments of the Ketuvim Netzarim (writings of the Netzarim). Yeshua was born of Jewish lineage and he taught his disciples in his native Hebrew and Aramaic, the original disciples of Yeshua were also known as Jews, Hebrews and Israelites. Yeshua and his people lived under Roman occupation, but their language and religious identity as Jewish people is based on Torah, the written Word of YHWH. As the oral transmission of Yeshua's teaching widened to a greater audience, the disciples wrote about their experience with Yeshua in Hebrew and Aramaic, for the benefit of others who were not first hand witnesses like they to the things Yeshua said and did. But even before accounts of Yeshua's life were written, his teachings and fame was disseminated among Greeks and in the Greek language as well. Additionally, all who follow YHWH and His Mashiyach do so to the exclusion of all other religions and gods. YHWH sets His own apart, whether Greek or Jew, all who permit Torah to be written upon their hearts, become the peculiar people whom YHWH sets apart.



"You have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. Now therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And you shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy (set apart) nation..."

Sh'mot/Exodus 19:4-6


Even 1,000 years later, Jewish translators refused to Hellenize the Name of YHWH! The Jewish scribes were so highly respectful of the Name of YHWH, that they chose to insert Paleo Hebrew letters in the Greek text when they came to the Name of YHWH (see Nahal Hever texts). After a thousand years the Word of YHWH, the Aseret ha-Dibrot (Ten Sayings or Ten Commandments) were finally made available in the Greek language. Prior to this, if Greeks wanted to read the Word of YHWH, they had to learn the Hebrew language. The Greek language originated around 800 BC, it spawned out of a polytheistic culture that differentiated itself as being "modernized", caretakers of philosophy and knowledge, rather than being set apart unto YHWH and His Word. The very first of YHWH's Ten Commandments opposed the "modernization", or the rebellion in mankind that desired to steward all peoples and earth, without YHWH.



I am YHWH thy Elohim

You shall have no other gods

You shall not take the name of YHWH thy Elohim in vain

Remember the Shabbat

Sh'mot/Exodus 20:2-7




The first commandment indicates that YHWH is Elohim and there is none other. This commandment also reveals the relationship between man and YHWH, that YHWH is the Architect of all Life. The Name of YHWH cannot be transliterated into any another language, because within the spoken Name of YHWH is an aspirant identity that connects the spirit of man, his nephesh chaya, to the Spirit of YHWH. A transliteration of the Name of YHWH would only amount to one person's revelation or ideology, even the act of translating His name would consequently be a violation of the second commandment, "You shall have no other gods" . The second commandment is a prohibition against fractionalizing YHWH Elohim in our hearts, minds and actions. The first undoing of man, is to divide his loyalty between YHWH and another authority. Many people suppose that their own language and culture is equal to all other cultures, and yes there must be equality for things upon earth, but not in "heaven". There is nothing on earth that man can fabricate which is equal to YHWH, certainly not "culture", and especially if man's culture prides itself at contradicting YHWH Elohim.


Rabbinical tales are told of how Torah was given in 70 languages, so that all souls would have some understanding of how man was live and steward the earth. Certainly YHWH's intention is that there would be a universal acknowledgment of His Word, and that mankind would live in harmony with Himself and each other. While it might be a nice idea that Torah was given in all the known languages of Moshe's day, we know that YHWH spoke to Moshe in the Hebrew tongue, YHWH did not speak 70 languages to Moshe, nor does Torah say that the people were given the "gift of tongues". YHWH gave instruction to "not add unto the Word... neither diminish from it" so we need not speculate because we know that from the beginning of time, YHWH used the Hebrew language to reveal Himself. He raised up individuals like Noah, Avraham, Moshe, His Prophets, His Mashiyach and those whom He chooses who will keep Covenant with Him. The revelation of YHWH comes about in one's spirit, in thoughts, speech and in the reading of His Word so there are manifold ways that one can have access to the Word of YHWH.

YHWH has shown through time that He protects his Word, when Masoretic Jewish Scribes and Pharisees chose to change and distort Torah, YHWH provided ancient Hebrew manuscripts from Qumran to restore the accuracy of His Word.

When Hellenized Christianity attempted to choke hold the language, culture and values of Yeshua and His Talmidim, YHWH brought forth ancient writings of the Ketuvim Netzarim, the Kaboris Manuscript from the Hakkan Mountains in Assyria http://www.peshitta.org/initial/peshitta.html. In every case, because change is difficult to make, many deny and argue against what is self evident truth. The Kaboris Manuscript (Kabouris Codex) has come under harsh attack by the Greek primacy religious crowd who are fearful that the authority of the Greek Scriptures may be undermined, and put themselves in a tight spot. But everyone knows that Yeshua and his disciples weren't Greeks, and didn't venerate either the language or the culture of Rome.


Our beloved Paul the Apostle informs us in Romans 16:22 that it was "I Tertius, who wrote this epistle...", the Greek primacy crowd must think that Paul had a multiple personality disorder, bipolar or something like this. It says right in your Bible that Paul never wrote the book of Romans, he dictated it to Tertius. Those who have studied Paul from a historical perspective (ie without Christian or Jewish religious bias) tell us that Paul wasn't such an ordinary Jew. Paul was born into wealth and was sent to Jerusalem when he was 3 years old to study under the greatest Rabbinical Sage of the day. If you were a Jew hanging out with the greatest Sages in Jerusalem you would NOT be learning Greek literature, maybe someone could find an Orthodox Shul in Jerusalem, Israel that studies Greek and let me know? Apostle Paul was on target to be the next head Rabbi of Israel, that's why for Paul to serve Hellenized Jews and Gentiles is a greater miracle than Christians can imagine, something like Jonah going to tell Nineveh to repent. For Shaul to attend the most prized Yeshiva in the known world, he would have memorized Torah before his was 13. His Rabbi was Gamliel who according to the Gemara in Megilla 21a: "The Rabbis taught, from the days of Moshe until Rabban Gamliel, they only studied Torah while standing. When R. Gamliel died, a weakness came into the world and they studied Torah while seated. This is the meaning of [the Mishna at the end of Sota, which states:] "When R. Gamliel died, the honor of Torah was gone." According to Shaul's testimony in Acts 22:4 he "persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women." Shaul was a very zealous Pharisee, a "nut-basket" for TRADITION who would have been very guarded against being assimilated into Roman and Greek culture. Two thousand years later, observant Jews are still very guarded against becoming assimilated into Hellenized culture.

Any person who has suffered the infamy of living a righteous life in a Hellenized world knows what it means to live separate from a carnal Torahless world. We know how it feels like to be treated as a stranger in our own land, by our own families, even in churches and synagogues. Others may, but we cannot deny the standards YHWH has set before us to walk in. Paul was not a Hellenist, neither was he two faced to live in a way that pleased others and got himself notoriety. When it says "I Tertius, who wrote this epistle..." it means what it says, Paul's epic letter to the Romans was written by Tertius. Remember when the Romans picked Paul up and hauled him out of the Temple, after he completed the Nazirite purification along with the four other men Acts 21:26,27? Think about 4 men plus Paul, which equals FIVE men, and how having FIVE MEN purify themselves is a distinct sign of Torah Observance? Remember also how Paul addressed the P'rushim and Tz'dukim, in Hebrew but someone wrote a commentary in Acts 22:2, to inform the reader that Paul, a very widely known man throughout Israel, spoke in Hebrew and the crowd listened? Why would anyone really need to supply that bit of information? Paul asks a question of the Chief Captain of the Romans and then in Acts 21:37 the Captain asks Paul, "Can you speak Greek?" The Greek primacy spin doctors teach that the Captain was so amazed that Paul spoke such GOOD Greek? Or, it makes more sense that the Chief Captain of the Romans was simply requesting that Paul speak in Greek, so he could understand what he was saying.

Joseph ben Mattathias (nicknamed Josephus), is by far the most famous Jewish historian, intellect and writer of the 1st Century who wrote, "I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understanding the elements of the Greek language although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own language, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness: for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations." Josephus is a champion of the Greek Christian world, he is considered to be a secret Christian by many Christian theologians, Josephus wrote in Hebrew not in Greek. Josephus says "I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness", but Christian theologians are quick to point out that he was just being "modest". If you read Josephus, he's about as in your face as any good Jew could be. Yoseph ben Mattathias was a Pharisee who leaned heavily toward the idea that the Roman armies were just too powerful for them to beat, otherwise he would have happily made war against Rome! The Roman occupation of Israel was extremely troublesome for the Jews, as much then as it is now, a common saying among Jews was "it would be better to feed your children swine than to learn the language of the Romans". It's nothing personal really, it's like what happens in any other occupation, even places like Iraq where American armies control the region, the locals are trying to beat them off but can't, the résistance from family members leaves them lying in their blood, then it was the Romans who were too "big and bad" to take down, now it's the Americans who feel they are god's gift to the world? Even if you tell them nicely that their welcome is a bit worn out, they just don't seem to get it and so it was with the Jews and the Romans in Yeshua's day. The Romans went on a rampage against the Jews and caused hundreds of blood baths, then they took tens of thousands of young Jews captive and made slaves out of them, so one should understand that there was no love lost between the majority of Jews and Romans in the Land of Israel.


Iniquity means Torahlessness, missing the mark of Torah (YHWH's righteous instruction), Yeshua is NOT Jesus, and Jesus is NOT Yeshua.



The goal of ardent Greek primacy theologians,

is to establish the Greek language as the authority

so their Hellenized (anti-Torah) ideals are protected.



This subject of whether the "New Testament" has a Greek or Hebrew/Aramaic origin has been addressed by many scholars. Information is surfacing in all sorts of publications about Hebrew and Aramaic primacy, if one cares to learn. Texts such as Khabouris, Peshitta, Munsters, ShemTob, and DuTillet clearly show that it is impossible that the early followers of Yeshua were Greek thinkers. Scholars and researchers like Howard Gordon, Charles Cutler Torrey, Robert Balgarnie Young Scotts, James Trimm, Paul Younan, Andrew Gabriel Roth, Christopher Lancaster and hundreds of others are providing mountains of evidence and documentation to show the impossibility of a Greek primacy for the Ketuvim Netzarim (writings of the Nazarenes).

Neither can it be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Apostle Paul wrote anything in the Greek language, it is only one theory. It's also interesting to note that it is NOT Greeks, who are the most adamant about "New Testament" Greek primacy, but it's English speakers. This dialogue would redundant if Christianity even remotely resembled the fundamental Faith of Yeshua and His Talmidim, but it doesn't, this is why it is very important that we look deeper into the life and teachings of Yeshua from his original language.

The language of Yeshua, according to the Ketuvim Netzarim was Hebrew and Aramaic, the terms and definitions of the Kingdom were given according to the King who conveyed his thoughts, ideas and values in Hebrew and Aramaic. Each one of us most certainly receives direction by the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) in the language of the Spirit, but we think and understand in words and definitions. Let's not forget that it was the WORD of YHWH that spoke the Universe into Existence, the Word is of supreme importance for us to connect with YHWH. The invention of new Greek terms and definitions for Hebrew words in the Ketuvim Netzarim propagated Hellenistic ideas that existed long before Yeshua came to earth. The Hellenistic pagan world tries to project its ideas upon Mashiyach and His Talmidim as a bid to usurp the authority and purity of truth.


Epiphanius said about the Jewish Talmidim of Yeshua, "they are rather Jews and nothing else". What really perplexed the Church founders, was when they discovered that Jewish followers of Yeshua, continued to live as Jews, the church founders would have none of that, they wanted Jews to conform to Hellenistic lifestyles and values.

The concept of a "New Testament" is somewhat blurred in the Greek, if we read Jeremiah 31:31 we quickly discover that what Jeremiah called the "New Covenant" has not been entirely fulfilled yet. If we follow through to the Words of Yeshua, His Talmidim and Apostle Paul we also discover Paul practiced sacrifices in the Temple, the Disciples practiced circumcision, and the Gentile converts observed Shabbat and complied with Levitical Kosher laws ie no blood, and not eating nothing strangled. This is the kind of "Jewish stuff" that Greek Christian founders abhorred, and is still abhorred by most Christians today as being too "Jewish", or "legalistic" and those who teach it are called "Judaisers".

The writings of the Talmidim of Yeshua are critically important to understand in their original context. Yeshua is YHWH come in the flesh, when He taught He manifest the wisdom of YHWH as was given unto Moshe in Torah and throughout the Prophets of YHWH. It cannot be emphasized enough how critical these writings are to our understanding of the Kingdom of Elohim, we have no better way to the TRUE Mashiyach than through His OWN WORD!

The Greek primacy crowd is anxious to protect their theologies, the "mother of all" Christian theology is the "Trinity" which happens to be as old as Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz and as pagan as hell. The theology of sun worship (Sun-day), Tammuz worship (Christ-mass), Ishtar (Easter) etc are all patently pagan. The Trinity not only fits well with Hellenistic thinking, it's origin is pagan. There would be far fewer bridges to Hellenism had Greek Christians studied Yeshua in His own language and culture rather than coining new Greek terms, definitions and methodologies that are of pagan origin. It's not just a simple matter of knowing Hebrew or Greek, it's a matter of whose authority we choose to follow. Our goal must not only be the truth, but to also be willing to bear the infamy of truth as it pertains to Yeshua and the Kingdom of Elohim, regardless of the language we speak or the culture we've come from. We are told that the Faithful will know the Song of Moshe and the Song of the Lamb, both songs have a Jewish melody.

Abraham, Isaac, and Ya'akov were called and chosen by YHWH to make a distinction between the True Faith and Paganism. The Kingdom of Elohim and Paganism are opposites and are at war with each other, hasatan is the author of paganism. Avraham, whose name is his calling, is the father of all who seek the Kingdom of Elohim, the language of our Fathers Avraham, Yitzak and Ya'akov is Hebrew. All who seek the Mashiyach are to be joined in Spirit and Truth together with all the Israel of Elohim. We must see ourselves as being children of a common Father, from Adam to Noach to Abraham to Moshe to David to Yeshua to the Talmidim of Yeshua, to Paul the Apostle and hopefully even to the soul who first introduced us to Mashiyach Yeshua. Let's hope the values and teaching about the Kingdom of Elohim have been consistent with truth, if not, then it's time to explore the "Ancient Paths" as Jeremiah says and turn to YHWH. If we haven't much "Hebraic" exposure at least we should learn the basic distinctions between Hebraic and Hellenistic thinking. Knowing and learning Hebrew in itself is not going to lead a person out of false religion, there are countless Christian evangelists in Jerusalem who speak Hebrew for the sole purpose of finding and Hellenizing Jews into pagan Christianity. What leads us out of deception is the work of the Ruach HaKodesh in conjunction with the original Word of YHWH, if we want to know HaMashiyach we must study and meditate on the Word of YHWH to know the WILL of YHWH for our lives, just as King David did.


Did Mashiyach speak Greek to the woman of Canaan? No.

"And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, 'Have mercy on me, O Master, Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a demon'. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, 'Send her away; for she cries after us'. But he answered and said, 'I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel'. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, 'Master, help me'. But he answered and said, 'It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs'. And she said, 'True, Master: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table'. Then Yeshua answered and said unto her, 'O woman, great is your faith: be it unto you even as you wish'. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." Matthew 15:22-28

Did Mashiyach speak Greek to Pilate? No.


"Then said Pilate unto him, do you not hear how many things they witness against you? And he answered him never a word; insomuch that the governor marveled greatly." Matthew 27:13-14


We should be careful to distinguish between Messianic Judaism and Hellenism, the Mashiyach warned us about religion:

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matthew 15:9


Mashiyach did not think or teach in Greek, He taught in Hebrew. It was a grave mistake for translators to coin Greek words and redefine Hebrew principles into a Hellenized language and culture, it has caused "the church" to remain stagnant and join itself tightly to the fallen world. It is vital that Mashiyach be brought to all people of all languages, but what will it profit if Mashiyach be rendered as a Hellenized image?

The Mashiyach was Zeus-ified, each Sunday morning people go up to the temple of Zeus and sing songs, make jubilation that Zeus has freed the people from bondage and delivered them from Torah. When the children of Israel made the golden calf in the wilderness they were calling upon YHWH, they worshipped the golden calf by the Name of YHWH, which they made with their own hands. Today Christians bow and worship Je-zeus who was fashioned by the hands of the church fathers, idolaters and pagans, that's clearly what Paul said in Acts 20:29 "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." The solution is to come out from Hellenism and be separate, anyone who adamantly maintains a Greek primacy of the New Testament does so to establish an authority that is not of Mashiyach.



YHWH asks us to come out of paganism and be separate,

and touch not the unclean thing,

then He will receive us and be a Father unto us

and we will be His sons and daughters!



Say NO to Hellenism!



"For there is NO OTHER NAME

under heaven given among men,

whereby we must be saved."



Shalom U'Vrachot,



Baruch Ben Daniel



First century Jews DID NOT converse in Greek:

The Roll Concerning Fasts in Aramaic (66-70 AD)

The Letter of Gamaliel in Aramaic (c. 30-110 AD)

Wars of the Jews by Joseph ben Mattathias in Hebrew (c. 75 AD)

The Mishna in Hebrew (c. 220 AD)
The Gemara in Aramaic (c. 500 AD)


It is Hellenism to believe that Yeshua and His Talmidim conversed and wrote in the Greek language.

The Ketuvim Netzarim records Yeshua entering into the Temple on Hanukkah, endorsing the

Maccabean victory of the overthrow of foreign occupiers.

The historical event on which Chanukah is based is the Jewish struggle to,

NOT becoming Hellenized!!!



Click on links for more info

http://graceandknowledge.faithweb.com/knowles.html

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Introduction/Why_Hebrew_/why_hebrew_.html

http://www.msu.edu/~linglang/hebrew/whyheb.htm

http://www.hebrewcollege.edu/hct/winter_2004/insight/

http://webbpage.topcities.com/Yavo/1_1_Mullican_WhyStudy.html#101



*Nazis were following a "political zionist" plot that is still aiming to make "Zion" a curse word, Nazis were and are funded by self hating Jews who are "political zionists" that hate YHWH, Torah and His Mashiyach. It is the "spirit" of political zionists who also finance Paganism and Hellenism and who established many seminaries and yeshivot to spin lies against HaMashiyach and His Talmidim, its a new different face on the tower of Bavel.

.

Yep, time to answer my queries or move on!!



:)

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

:)Ladies & Gentlemen; Felicitous Salutations:

More then 1 year + A Grace Period has passed since I first challenged kasalt & phildee to answer six simple queries. They have not.

Instead they mince out to the Dance Floor emptyhanded, emptyheaded and perform The Empty Pocket Polka in a most inept manner.

Time to 'Pony Up'; answer the Queries.

1: So answer these queries: How do you Biblically define Righteous/ness; Sin; Iniquity?

2: Why does Yahshua Messiah and ALL His Apostles constantly; throughout the entire New Testament: Cite and Quote Directly from the Tanakh/Old Testament, the words of Yahweh, and Yahwehs Patriarchs and Prophets and tell everybody to Heed Them?

3: Do you deny that Yahshua HaMessiah and His Apostles were Torah Conscious and Observant Jews? If so, explain

4: Do you deny they went to the Synagogues on Yahwehs Sabbath and read from the Tanach? If so, explain.

5: Do you deny that they taught all Humans, Jews and Gentiles about Torah Consciousness and Torah Observation. If so, explain.

Bonus Query #6: You say the Patriarchs and Prophets of Yahweh are deceived; How So?

The Conclusion I have reached after exercising Due Diligence by surveying Broad Spectrums of Data Relevant to the Topic at Hand, gnosis of christianity is: Ludicrous; Deceitful and Counterproductive.

Agree or Disagree? If so, explain.


Ludicrous: It's number one Core Doctrine is: Yahweh is not the'god' of the 'new testament'. I, personally cannot think of anyother premise that is more preposterous. The Subject of every Verse of Scripture from Bereshith/genesis to Revelation is Yahweh. And ALL the Prophets only prophecied of Yahshua Messiah.

The entirety of Scripture was written by men Inspired by Yahweh, thus all Scripture is: D.R.T.R. Data Resistant To Reinterpretation. It is all interlocked and bolsters and supports itself. There is Corporate Solidarity and Univocity.

To say Yahweh is not the 'god of the 'new testament' is a gossamer assertion that does not have one Verse of Yahwehs Scripture to support it.

This is Hubris of unequaled proportions; a pissant mortal human 'thinks' they can remove Yahweh from Scripture He was the Inspiration for.


So gnosis of christianity has no Foundation to build upon. Just assertion.

Their Core Message is the Exact Same as the Serpent told Mother Eve, in Yahwehs Garden; Eden:

1:Yahweh is a Liar

2: Yahweh is not a Benevolent and Loving Father to His Creation; Humankind.

http://www.raystedman.org/genesis/0314.html

THE ENTICEMENT OF EVIL
by Ray C. Stedman

http://www.mashiyach.com/hebrew.htm



Kind Regards


Time to Pony Up, or Shut Up!!

[phildee3]

phil, '77; and kslt all were promoting the 'gnosis of christianity' Doctrine which has been proven to be False.



Lies.

i) I have bever promoted any "doctrine."
ii) Gnosticism is non-dogmatic (some "neo-gnostics" are though, but they're gnostic in name only).



'gnosis of christianity' is dead, what do you say about that?



Bloody good job too -
since it's your invention and I've no idea what you mean by it since you never said.

[kasalt]

When Hellenized Christianity attempted to choke hold the language, culture and values of Yeshua and His Talmidim, YHWH brought forth ancient writings of the Ketuvim Netzarim, the Kaboris Manuscript

"The Khaburis Codex (alternate spelling Khaboris, Khabouris) is a late and unremarkable Syriac manuscript of the New Testament. The Khaburis Codex is the complete Peshitta New Testament containing 22 books, in comparison to the Western New Testament Canon which contains 27 books. The missing books are II Peter, II John, III John, Jude and Revelation. It has been carbon-dated to the twelfth century, which is confirmed by palaeography."

Khaboris Codex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Our beloved Paul the Apostle informs us in Romans 16:22 that it was "I Tertius, who wrote this epistle...", the Greek primacy crowd must think that Paul had a multiple personality disorder, bipolar or something like this. It says right in your Bible that Paul never wrote the book of Romans, he dictated it to Tertius.

Do you think that "Tertius" is a Hebrew name?

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Yo!!!


If you do not have answers for my 6 Queries, put a sock init.

go take a nap.

have some milk and cookies.

go play outside.


The Adults are busy and do not have time to entertain anymore of your collective nonsense.

These Queries will be 'Posed' Globally next year on many 'gnostic' sites and forums.

Kind Regards

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Lies.

i) I have bever promoted any "doctrine."
ii) Gnosticism is non-dogmatic (some "neo-gnostics" are though, but they're gnostic in name only).

You see how devoid of discernment and judgement you are?

phils Doctrines:

The 'new testament' is a Hellenic/Paganic Document.

Yahweh is not the Creator Being that Yahshua haMessiah serves in the 'new testament'

YHWH is a Negative.

You Promote the Serpents Message of Disrespect and Disobedience to YHWH.

You have quite a few Doctrines phill, I have only Posted a few.

Now answer the Queries,

[kasalt]

Do you think that "Tertius" is a Hebrew name?

Pluto was the Roman god of the underworld, known in Latin as Tertius, the counterpart of the Greek Hades.

Hades refers both to the ancient Greek underworld, the abode of Hades, and to the god of the underworld.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Pluto_%28mythology%29

:eek:

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/T/TERTIUS/

TERTIUS

tur'-shi-us (Tertios): The amanuensis of Paul who wrote at his dictation the Epistle to the Romans. In the midst of Paul's greetings to the Christians in Rome he interpolated his own, "I Tertius, who write the epistle, salute you in the Lord" (Rom 16:22). "It is as a Christian, not in virtue of any other relation he has to the Romans, that Tertius salutes them" (Denney). Some identify him with Silas, owing to the fact that shalish is the Hebrew for "third (officer)," as tertius is the Latin Others think he was a Roman Christian residing in Corinth. This is, however, merely conjecture. Paul seems to have dictated his letters to an amanuensis, adding by his own hand merely the concluding sentences as "the token in every epistle" (2 Thess 3:17; Col 4:18; 1 Cor 16:21). How far this may have influenced the style of his letters is discussed in Sanday-Headlam, Romans, Introduction, LX.
S. F. Hunter

Bibliography Information
Orr, James, M.A., D.D. General Editor. "Definition for 'TERTIUS'". "International Standard Bible Encyclopedia". bible-history.com - ISBE; 1915

Tertius, a non-hebrew, was the Apostle Shauls Scribe. Shaul Dictated and Tertius Scribed.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Amanuensis

Main Entry: aman·u·en·sis
Pronunciation: \ə-ˌman-yə-ˈwen(t)-səs\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural aman·u·en·ses \-(ˌ)sēz\
Etymology: Latin, from (servus) a manu slave with secretarial duties
Date: 1619
: one employed to write from dictation or to copy manuscript







so answer the queries, or begone.

[1977]

Joseph ben Mattathias (nicknamed Josephus), is by far the most famous Jewish historian, intellect and writer of the 1st Century who wrote, "I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understanding the elements of the Greek language although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own language, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness: for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations." Josephus is a champion of the Greek Christian world, he is considered to be a secret Christian by many Christian theologians, Josephus wrote in Hebrew not in Greek. Josephus says "I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness", but Christian theologians are quick to point out that he was just being "modest". If you read Josephus, he's about as in your face as any good Jew could be. Yoseph ben Mattathias was a Pharisee who leaned heavily toward the idea that the Roman armies were just too powerful for them to beat, otherwise he would have happily made war against Rome!
Josephus shows his admiration for Greek philosophy in Against Apion (http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2849/pg2849.txt):
I do not now explain how these notions of God are the
sentiments of the wisest among the Grecians, and how they were taught
them upon the principles that he afforded them. However, they testify,
with great assurance, that these notions are just, and agreeable to the
nature of God, and to his majesty; for Pythagoras, and Anaxagoras, and
Plato, and the Stoic philosophers that succeeded them, and almost all
the rest, are of the same sentiments, and had the same notions of the
nature of God; yet durst not these men disclose those true notions to
more than a few, because the body of the people were prejudiced with
other opinions beforehand.
Latin is not Greek, and speaking is not necessarily writing. As to what language he wrote in, it doesn't get much more unequivocal than this:
Those Antiquities contain the history of five thousand years, and are taken out of our sacred books, but are translated by me into the Greek tongue.... I made use of some persons to assist me in learning the Greek tongue, and by these means I composed the history of those transactions.
It's also interesting to note that it is NOT Greeks, who are the most adamant about "New Testament" Greek primacy, but it's English speakers. This dialogue would redundant if Christianity even remotely resembled the fundamental Faith of Yeshua and His Talmidim, but it doesn't, this is why it is very important that we look deeper into the life and teachings of Yeshua from his original language.
English speakers...like the vast majority of New Testament scholars?
Epiphanius said about the Jewish Talmidim of Yeshua, "they are rather Jews and nothing else". What really perplexed the Church founders, was when they discovered that Jewish followers of Yeshua, continued to live as Jews, the church founders would have none of that, they wanted Jews to conform to Hellenistic lifestyles and values.
I thought Epiphanius was full of shit? He also says (Panarion, 30) that the Ebionites regarded Paul as a false prophet.
16,8 Nor are they ashamed to accuse Paul here with certain false inventions of their false apostles' villainy and imposture. They say that he was a Tarsean—which he admits himself and does not deny. But they suppose that he was of Greek parentage, taking the occasion for this from the (same) passage because he frankly said, "I am a man of Tarsus, a citizen of no mean city." (9) They then claim that he was Greek and the son of a Greek mother and father, but that he had gone up to Jerusalem, stayed a while, and desired to marry a daughter of the high priest. He therefore became a proselyte and was circumcised. But since he still could not get that sort of girl he became angry, and wrote against circumcision, and the Sabbath and Legislation.
It would be far easier for you to do the same, rather than inventing elaborate and fallacious arguments to prove that he wrote the exact opposite of what he said. Philo of Alexandria proves that many Jews had no scruples about "becoming assimilated into Hellenized culture." If Paul did not speak the language, he did not write the epistles that are so inextricably bound to the nuances of Koine Greek, and the whole lot are manifestly exposed as Pagan forgeries.

[phildee3]

You see how devoid of discernment and judgement you are?

phils Doctrines:

The 'new testament' is a Hellenic/Paganic Document.

Yahweh is not the Creator Being that Yahshua haMessiah serves in the 'new testament'

YHWH is a Negative.

You Promote the Serpents Message of Disrespect and Disobedience to YHWH.




Lies.
All lies.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Time to Pony Up, or Shut Up!![/QUOTE]

Snoopsnuffleopagus;1058475643]Ladies & Gentlemen; Felicitous Salutations:

More then 1 year + A Grace Period has passed since I first challenged kasalt & phildee to answer six simple queries. They have not.

Instead they mince out to the Dance Floor emptyhanded, emptyheaded and perform The Empty Pocket Polka in a most inept manner.

Time to 'Pony Up'; answer the Queries.

1: So answer these queries: How do you Biblically define Righteous/ness; Sin; Iniquity?

2: Why does Yahshua Messiah and ALL His Apostles constantly; throughout the entire New Testament: Cite and Quote Directly from the Tanakh/Old Testament, the words of Yahweh, and Yahwehs Patriarchs and Prophets and tell everybody to Heed Them?

3: Do you deny that Yahshua HaMessiah and His Apostles were Torah Conscious and Observant Jews? If so, explain

4: Do you deny they went to the Synagogues on Yahwehs Sabbath and read from the Tanach? If so, explain.

5: Do you deny that they taught all Humans, Jews and Gentiles about Torah Consciousness and Torah Observation. If so, explain.

Bonus Query #6: You say the Patriarchs and Prophets of Yahweh are deceived; How So?

The Conclusion I have reached after exercising Due Diligence by surveying Broad Spectrums of Data Relevant to the Topic at Hand, gnosis of christianity is: Ludicrous; Deceitful and Counterproductive.

Agree or Disagree? If so, explain.


Ludicrous: It's number one Core Doctrine is: Yahweh is not the'god' of the 'new testament'. I, personally cannot think of anyother premise that is more preposterous. The Subject of every Verse of Scripture from Bereshith/genesis to Revelation is Yahweh. And ALL the Prophets only prophecied of Yahshua Messiah.

The entirety of Scripture was written by men Inspired by Yahweh, thus all Scripture is: D.R.T.R. Data Resistant To Reinterpretation. It is all interlocked and bolsters and supports itself. There is Corporate Solidarity and Univocity.

To say Yahweh is not the 'god of the 'new testament' is a gossamer assertion that does not have one Verse of Yahwehs Scripture to support it.

This is Hubris of unequaled proportions; a pissant mortal human 'thinks' they can remove Yahweh from Scripture He was the Inspiration for.


So gnosis of christianity has no Foundation to build upon. Just assertion.

Their Core Message is the Exact Same as the Serpent told Mother Eve, in Yahwehs Garden; Eden:

1:Yahweh is a Liar

2: Yahweh is not a Benevolent and Loving Father to His Creation; Humankind.

http://www.raystedman.org/genesis/0314.html

THE ENTICEMENT OF EVIL
by Ray C. Stedman

http://www.mashiyach.com/hebrew.htm



Kind Regards



Still waiting................... ;)

Fill: Look up the word: Doctrine in any Dictionary

'77: Look up the Term: Liturgical

The Apostle Shaul was 1,000% Non-Paganic.

As I have informed you; this Thread is going Global next year, and right now the Three of you are presenting yourselves in a most Obtuse manner.

'gnosis of christianity'=All Heat no Light


Answer the Questions

[kasalt]

Josephus shows his admiration for Greek philosophy in Against Apion (http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2849/pg2849.txt):I do not now explain how these notions of God are the
sentiments of the wisest among the Grecians, and how they were taught
them upon the principles that he afforded them. However, they testify,
with great assurance, that these notions are just, and agreeable to the
nature of God, and to his majesty; for Pythagoras, and Anaxagoras, and
Plato, and the Stoic philosophers that succeeded them, and almost all
the rest, are of the same sentiments, and had the same notions of the
nature of God; yet durst not these men disclose those true notions to
more than a few, because the body of the people were prejudiced with
other opinions beforehand.Excellent find, '77, thanks for posting it. I was well aware that the Christian theologians and mystics held the ancient Greek philosophers in high regard, but I was not aware that the Jews held this opinion as well.

Here's yet more proof that the New Testament was influenced by Greek culture and literature. In Acts 9:5, during Saul's visionary conversion experience on the road to Damascus, Jesus is quoted as saying to him:"Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads."
The statement, "It is hard for you to kick against the goads," always struck me as a rather unusual thing for Christ to have said. It just seemed to me as rather unlike anything Jesus is recorded to have said in the Gospels, and therefore it seemed a bit "out of character", in my opinion. It also doesn't appear in the Old Testament.

It turns out that this phrase was actually taken from an ancient pagan Greek proverb that predates the New Testament. The analogy of an animal kicking against the goads was used in ancient Greek literature to refer to a human being who was resisting the will of the gods. It is found first in Pindar's Odes, Pythia 2.94-5:"It is best to take the yoke on one's neck and bear it lightly; kicking against the goads makes the path treacherous."
The phrase is also found in Euripides' Bacchae:"I would sacrifice to the god rather than kick against his goads in anger, a mortal against a god."It is found yet again in Aeschylus, Agamemnon, Line 1624:"Do not kick against the goads lest you strike to your own hurt."
Reference: http://www.christianorigins.com/euripidesluke.html

It would appear that after his resurrection, Jesus found time to read the classics! :D

[1977]

And yet somehow Snoops just keeps kicking. But as I have already explained that the Old and New Testaments are indeed a unity, I have no further quarrel with him. Hopefully he'll drop a link when he decides to sow his spermatic Logos among the heathen nations.

[kasalt]

[Epiphanius] says that the Ebionites regarded Paul as a false prophet.

Apparently, so did the Nazarenes--or at least, some of their contemporary heirs do. I was just browsing through an Israeli "Netzarim (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_N-Q.htm#Df-Netzarim)" website when I happened upon their repudiation of Paul the Apostle, whom they mockingly refer to as "Paul the Apostate". They claim that Paul was a "rabidly obsessed Hellenist". Their reasons for this claim can be found here:

http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_N-Q.htm#Df-Paul

They even go so far as to say that the vision Paul had on the road to Damascus was of Satan: Circa 36 C.E., "Shaul" was in Yerushalayim where, as a loyal Hellenist Roman citizen, he had been persecuting the Netzarim. As he was leaving Yerushalayim on his return to Damascus, Syria, he was met by a..."vision" of "Jesus" that was compatible with his Roman citizenship and inspired anew his Hellenist "enlightenment"... This...was almost certainly the Kohein ha-Resha--the same Satan who offered the same deal to Ribi Yehoshua (Matityahu 4.8-11). However, whereas Ribi Yehoshua refused the deal, Paul, offered the same "vision" on the road to Damascus, Syria, accepted it and the rest is history.
Josephus (http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Glossary/Glos_E-J.htm#Df-Josephus) also gets the "Hellenist" label thrown at him:"It is at first sight difficult to understand Josephus as exemplary of the Pharisaism which he affected, and prima facie he may be regarded with suspicion as a Hellenizer and so unfit to speak for Jewish orthodoxy."
Source: http://www.christianorigins.com/josephusreligion.html

The Netzarim website says of Josephus that he "became a traitor, defecting to the Hellenist Romans during the War of 70 C.E."

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh....

I love the Stench of Sulphur in the Morning, it means Le Petite Satans Asses are Frying.



And yet....for you to HONESTLY answer my Questions would require you to Die on your feet.

I see you have chosen the Alternative: To Live on your knees.

So be it.

As for a Hellenized/Pagan Shaul/Paul.

Bullshit!

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/3_4/paul

In speaking to his countrymen first, Paul followed a precedent. Jesus himself proclaimed his message initially and predominantly to the household of Israel. He told his early disciples, "You will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8). Or, as Paul later put it, "first for the Jew, then for the Gentile" (Romans 1:16). But this principle of "first for the Jew" was more than an act of obedience, it was the outworking of Paul's continued love and concern for the Jewish people. "My heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites," he wrote, "is that they may be saved" (Romans 10:1).


What you, and just about everybody else do not realise is: Yahshua HaMessiah and His Apostles were the Fulfillment of Yeremyah/Jeremiahs prophecy 31:33=Torah 'written on hearts'.

And this is what they Taught and Exemplified.

Engaging the (Neo)Pagan Mind:
Paul’s Encounter with Athenian Culture
as a Model for Cultural Apologetics
(Acts 17:16–34)
—
J. Daryl Charles*

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/athenian_charles.pdf

Dead Sea Scrolls & Apostle Paul

by Baruch Ben Daniel

http://www.mashiyach.com/scrolls.htm

......
Contrary to what many theologians teach, Paul never diminishes Torah Observance or defines it as "works of the law". On the contrary he establishes Torah Observance as "holy, just and good" the Torah that Paul teaches is given by or through Mashiyach. Mashiyach as the Word of YHWH, gave Torah to Moshe, and The Spirit of Mashiyach guided our forefathers! Those who speak against Torah can neither know Mashiyach or Paul. Unfortunately, modern Christian religion teaches that Paul was a Jew who became Hellenized, modern Christianity was born through Church Founders who were themselves Hellenists, not righteous Jews, as such they projected Hellenism into their translations of the Word of YHWH. All who teach that souls are free to violate Torah are clearly doing the work of anti-messiah, these are in the same category as the first preacher who told Eve, "thou shalt not surely die" Genesis 3:4.......


Peter and Paul were at odds over a halachic decision regarding the Gentiles and circumcision, both men had a very clear understanding of the Kingdom of Elohim, yet even Peter was inspired to write about Paul that, "As also in all [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable twist, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:16 How do we know that Paul never abandoned Torah and became a Hellenist? Because a mans morality dictates his religion, Paul never goes on a rampage against the Torah of YHWH, NEVER! In other words it is a man's spiritual connection with YHWH that will dictate if he will be holy unto YHWH. Yeshua Mashiyach Himself clearly called Paul into the Kingdom of Elohim to follow Him, Paul did not invent a new Hellenized religion, Paul followed Yeshua Mashiyach. Yeshua said that HE came from the Father, which means Yeshua Mashiyach certainly wasn't Hellenized either.



Paul taught that a man is far better off to be circumcised of the heart, than to put on an outward show of the flesh to others. Why go through the "religious motions" for someone else's benefit? they will only glory in YOUR flesh because you voluntarily gave them authority over you. NO, don't do it, do Torah and seek approval from YHWH. Paul says,



"Wherefore the TORAH is KADOSH (Holy), and the MITZVOT (commandment) KADOSH (Holy), and TSADIQ (righteous), and TOV (good)." Romans 7:12

Paul upheld Torah,

Paul upheld the commandments

Paul upheld circumcision of both the heart and flesh.


Acts 13:14 "on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down"
1

Acts 13:44 "And the next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the Word of Yod."
1

Acts 16:13 "And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside, where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled."
1

Acts 17:2 "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures."
3

Acts 18:4,11 "And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath." ... "And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the Word of Yahweh among them."


Hebrew New Testament?
http://www.search-the-scriptures.org/hebrew_new_testament.htm


YHWH said that in the latter days knowledge would increase. And it has, hasn’t it? We know far more about early-day conditions and customs now than our predecessors did. Remember that the Greeks were pagans and the Jews considered the Greek language an abomination. The Jewish authorities declared that it was worse to learn the Greek language than to eat swine’s flesh! And they forbad the teaching of it.

It is also a difficult language Even Josephus, an educated Jewish historian of that era, wrote in his commentary that the Greek language was so difficult that he never gained much proficiency in it. So why would Yahweh choose a pagan, foreign tongue to reveal His New Testament plan? Especially to His own people, only a smattering of whom knew or understood the Greek language, and most of them hated it.

Consider, too His disciples. They didn’t have much education, remember. They had been mostly simple fishermen from Galilee before Yahshua called them to be disciples. The priests, Sadducees, Pharisees, and other Yahudi officials considered them “ignorant and uneducated men,” Acts 4:13. The King James Bible says “unlearned and ignorant men.”

So why would Yahweh inspire them to write His Son’s biography of the greatest life ever lived, and the greatest event since Creation, in a language that the Jews hated, and that the apostles could not have known? Doesn’t make sense, does it?

Well, truth is, He didn’t. So let’s take a look at the evidence that is available. When we do, I believe that you will conclude, as I have, that the New Testament was first written in the Hebrew and/or Aramaic language(s) and later translated into Greek, and then into other languages.

Even E. W. Bullinger, in his Companion Bible, Appendix 94, makes the statement that “while the language is Greek, the thoughts and idioms are Hebrew.” Apostle Paul stated that the New Testament Believers “....are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Yahshua the Messiah Himself being the chief cornerstone;” (Eph. 2:20 KJV).

Yahshua told His listeners to search the Scriptures in John 5:39, and the only scriptures to search at that time were the Hebrew Old Testament writings. He also said to listen to Moses and the prophets, Luke 16:29. Again this is the Old Testament. And what did the “noble Bereans” use to determine truth? (Acts 17:11). Old Testament, of course, the very same ones that Paul told Timothy would make one perfect. (2 Tim. 3:16-17); all written in Hebrew.

So let’s look into the New Testament and ask some pointed questions:.....


New Testament Based on Old
The inquiring Bible student soon realizes that the New Testament is undeniably Hebrew in grammar, idiom, and thinking. This opens up a whole new understanding of the essence of truth for the New Testament believer. If the New Testament is rooted in the Hebrew Language, then its teachings also derive from the Hebrew culture and are embedded in the Hebrew - and not pagan Greek - view of truth.

Those who would object to this reality must be asked the question, does arguing for a Greek New Testament bring one closer to the truth, or take one further from it, knowing that the Old Testament is a thoroughly Hebrew work? Is the New Testament a complete replacement of Old Testament teachings, with entirely new truth flavored with Hellenistic thought, practice, and understanding?

Not according to the Apostle Paul. He wrote that the New Testament is built on the foundation of the Old Testament prophets as well as the apostles, Ephesians 2:20. Yahshua the Messiah gave the directive to "search the Scriptures," John 5:39. The only "scriptures" extant at that time were those of the Old Testament. The New Testament writings were not yet finished and compiled.

In His parable of Lazarus, Yahshua again advised the unknowing to listen to "Moses and the prophets," meaning the Old Testament, Luke 16:29. It was these same Old Testament Scriptures that the "noble Bereans" used to establish truth in Acts 17:11, and the very ones Paul told Timothy would make one perfect, 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

Unpopular in Palestine
Many linguists and historians now attest that the Evangels, the Acts, and the Book of Revelation were composed in Hebrew (see listing of these scholars included herein). Early "church fathers" validate that the Book of Matthew was originally written in Hebrew (see Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History 3:39; Irenaeus' Against Heresies 3:1; Epiphanius' Panarion 20:9:4; Jerome's Lives of Illustrious Men 3 and De Vir. 3:36).

Hebrew was the language of Judah and Galilee in the first century. Its sister language, Aramaic, remained the secondary tongue and the language of commerce. Jews in this area were not Greek-speaking. Their revulsion to the Greeks and the Greek language derives from the fact that the Maccabees had just defeated the Greeks and driven them and their pagan defilement from the Temple and Palestine .

The eminent first century Jewish historian, priest, and scholar Josephus admitted that he could not speak Greek fluently and that the Jews frowned on any Jew who did.

"I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understanding the elements of the Greek language although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own language, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness: for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations" (Antiquities, 20:11:2).

If this illustrious scholar was unable to speak Greek sufficiently, how could the uneducated disciples write their books in Greek? From what we've learned, why would they even want to do so?

A Hebrew Writing to Hebrews
The common perception is that Paul was a Hellenist Jew from Tarsus who wrote his letters to Greek-speaking assemblies in Asia minor, Rome and Greece .

Paul (Heb. "Shaul") was first and foremost a Pharisee - a Jewish sect opposed to Hellenization. He was of the tribe of Benjamin and a "Hebrew of Hebrews," Philippians 3:5. A note in the NIV Study Bible says the expression "Hebrew of Hebrews" means "in language, attitudes and life-style."

Paul was educated at the feet of Gamaliel, a great doctor of Hebrew law, Acts 22:3. Although he was born in Tarsus (a city speaking mainly Aramaic), Paul grew up in Jerusalem , the center of Pharisaic Judaism, Acts 22:3.

The epistles Paul wrote were to various assemblies of the Dispersion. Each assembly was composed of a nucleus group of Jews and supplementary collections of gentiles (read about the Thessalonian Assembly, Acts 17:1-4, as well as the Corinthians, 1 Cor. 10:1-2). The converted Jews in these assemblies would receive Paul's letters and then teach the gentiles among them. It wasn't the gentiles who were converting Jews to a Grecian-Roman faith with a Greek Savior and doctrines of mystery worship!

Typically Paul went first to the synagogue when he traveled to contact these and other assemblies (Acts 13:14; 14:1; 17:1; 17:10, 18:4, 19:8). The language of the second Temple and synagogues at this time was Hebrew and Aramaic, not Greek.

His letters in Hebrew to these Jews (and gentiles) of the various assemblies would reflect his mission to take the Good News to "the Jew first and then to the Greek," Romans 1:16.

As an example, Paul specifically addressed Jews of the Corinthian assembly: "Moreover, brethren, I would not that you should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea" (1 Cor. 10:1-2).

Truth from Greek or Hebrew?
Understanding basic truth is to know that Yahweh chose the Hebrew peoples with whom to make a Covenant and through whom to bring the truth.

How much of a gentile should the True Worshiper be who is bathing in Scriptures first delivered to Hebrew patriarchs, Hebrew prophets, Hebrew apostles and lived by a Savior from the human lineage of King David? Paul was no champion of the gentile cause. He was the champion of a Hebrew Messiah and scriptures given in a Hebrew Old Testament. These were what he taught in his epistles. Note:
"But this I confess unto you, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets" (Acts 24:14). "Law and prophets" refers to the Old Testament Scriptures.

Which culture, world-view, and mentality should prevail among True Worshipers today? A Greek-gentile heritage? Or the birthright of those grafted into the promised of Israel established by the Heavenly Father Yahweh Himself?

Paul wrote to the assembly at Rome , "Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of Elohim, and the promises" (Romans 9:4).

If Christianity were honest with itself, it would openly acknowledge that it derives its faith from Hebrew and not Greco-Roman Scriptures. That its salvation comes from a Savior who came as a Hebrew not to establish a new religion but to build on what went before. Yahshua and the Scriptures are Hebrew.

If this one pivotal truth were taught today, real understanding of the Scriptures would break out everywhere, and the Bible would at last be revealed.

Scholars Who Support A Hebrew Original New Testament
Following is a listing of some linguistic and Biblical authorities who maintain or support a belief in a Hebrew origin of the New Testament:

Matthew Black, An Aramaic Approach to the Gospels and Acts, third edition, entirety.

D. Bivin and R. B. Blizzard, Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus, entirety.

E. W. Bullinger, The Companion Bible, Appendix 95.

Dr. F. C. Burkitt, The Earliest Sources for the Life of Jesus, pp. 25, 29.

Prof. C. F. Burney, The Aramaic Origin of the Fourth Gospel, entirety.

Epiphanius, Panarion 29:9:4 on Matthew.

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, III 24:6 and 39:18; V8:2; VI 25:4.

Edward Gibbon, History of Christianity, two footnotes on p. 185.

Dr. Frederick C. Grant, Roman Hellenism and the New Testament, p. 14.

Dr. George Howard, The Tetragram and the New Testament in Journal of Biblical Literature, vol. 96/1 (1977), 63-83. Also, Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, entirety.

Dr. George Lamsa, The Holy Bible from Ancient Eastern Manuscripts, Introduction, pp. IX-XII.

Dr. Alfred F. Loisy, The Birth of the Christian Religion and the Origin of the New Testament, pp. 66, 68.

Dr. Isaac Rabinowitz, Ephphata...in Journal of Semitic Studies vol. XVI (1971), pp. 151-156.

Ernest Renan, The Life of Jesus, pp. 90, 92.

Hugh J. Schonfield, An Old Hebrew Text of St. Matthew's Gospel, (1927) p. 7.

Dr. Albert Schweitzer, The Quest of the Historical Jesus, p. 275.

R. B. Y. Scott, The Original Language of the Apocalypse, entirety.

Prof. Charles C. Torrey, Documents of the Primitive Church, entirety. Also, Our Translated Gospels, entirety.

Dr. James Scott Trimm, The Semitic Origin of the New Testament, entirety.

Max Woolcox, The Semitism of Acts (1965), entirety.

F. Zimmerman, The Aramaic Origin of the Four Gospels, entirety.


Kind Regards

[kasalt]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh....

I love the Stench of Sulphur

Sounds like a personal problem.

Following is a listing of some linguistic and Biblical authorities who maintain or support a belief in a Hebrew origin of the New Testament:
{...}
Epiphanius


But I thought you said Epiphanius was full of shit? Yes, you did say:

epiphinius was full of shit

And now your quoting him as an "authority"? lol...

You are the one who is full of it. That would explain why you are enjoying "the stench of sulfur" when you are the only one around. You're only smelling yourself.

[thelucifer]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh....

I love the Stench of Sulphur in the Morning, it means Le Petite Satans Asses are Frying.


Snoop, I find this kind of thing most troubling.


When hate enters the room wisdom flees out the window.



I have read lots of the thinktank stuff and Im just not that impressed with them, some good stuff hear and there but over all way too biased.


Kind regards snoop.

[tannah]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh....

I love the Stench of Sulphur in the Morning, it means Le Petite Satans Asses are Frying.



And yet....for you to HONESTLY answer my Questions would require you to Die on your feet.

I see you have chosen the Alternative: To Live on your knees.

So be it.

As for a Hellenized/Pagan Shaul/Paul.

Bullshit!

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/3_4/paul




What you, and just about everybody else do not realise is: Yahshua HaMessiah and His Apostles were the Fulfillment of Yeremyah/Jeremiahs prophecy 31:33=Torah 'written on hearts'.

And this is what they Taught and Exemplified.

Engaging the (Neo)Pagan Mind:
Paul’s Encounter with Athenian Culture
as a Model for Cultural Apologetics
(Acts 17:16–34)
—
J. Daryl Charles*

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/athenian_charles.pdf

Dead Sea Scrolls & Apostle Paul

by Baruch Ben Daniel

http://www.mashiyach.com/scrolls.htm







Acts 13:14 "on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and sat down"
1

Acts 13:44 "And the next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the Word of Yod."
1

Acts 16:13 "And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to a riverside, where we were supposing that there would be a place of prayer; and we sat down and began speaking to the women who had assembled."
1

Acts 17:2 "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures."
3

Acts 18:4,11 "And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath." ... "And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the Word of Yahweh among them."


Hebrew New Testament?
http://www.search-the-scriptures.org/hebrew_new_testament.htm








Scholars Who Support A Hebrew Original New Testament
Following is a listing of some linguistic and Biblical authorities who maintain or support a belief in a Hebrew origin of the New Testament:

Matthew Black, An Aramaic Approach to the Gospels and Acts, third edition, entirety.

D. Bivin and R. B. Blizzard, Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus, entirety.

E. W. Bullinger, The Companion Bible, Appendix 95.

Dr. F. C. Burkitt, The Earliest Sources for the Life of Jesus, pp. 25, 29.

Prof. C. F. Burney, The Aramaic Origin of the Fourth Gospel, entirety.

Epiphanius, Panarion 29:9:4 on Matthew.

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, III 24:6 and 39:18; V8:2; VI 25:4.

Edward Gibbon, History of Christianity, two footnotes on p. 185.

Dr. Frederick C. Grant, Roman Hellenism and the New Testament, p. 14.

Dr. George Howard, The Tetragram and the New Testament in Journal of Biblical Literature, vol. 96/1 (1977), 63-83. Also, Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, entirety.

Dr. George Lamsa, The Holy Bible from Ancient Eastern Manuscripts, Introduction, pp. IX-XII.

Dr. Alfred F. Loisy, The Birth of the Christian Religion and the Origin of the New Testament, pp. 66, 68.

Dr. Isaac Rabinowitz, Ephphata...in Journal of Semitic Studies vol. XVI (1971), pp. 151-156.

Ernest Renan, The Life of Jesus, pp. 90, 92.

Hugh J. Schonfield, An Old Hebrew Text of St. Matthew's Gospel, (1927) p. 7.

Dr. Albert Schweitzer, The Quest of the Historical Jesus, p. 275.

R. B. Y. Scott, The Original Language of the Apocalypse, entirety.

Prof. Charles C. Torrey, Documents of the Primitive Church, entirety. Also, Our Translated Gospels, entirety.

Dr. James Scott Trimm, The Semitic Origin of the New Testament, entirety.

Max Woolcox, The Semitism of Acts (1965), entirety.

F. Zimmerman, The Aramaic Origin of the Four Gospels, entirety.


Kind Regards

Why do you not argue this strongly for the book "Wind in the Willows", and argue that Ratty was a brave hero and that Toad was a conceited idiot? It states these things in the book more or less, as having been said by these charachters. Because all I have to say is I don't believe any of that mythical stuff you just posted is based on real events, and what do you have to prove me wrong?

It takes a few hours for a statement to become a rumour, to become gossip, to get distorted, and for bias to be added to, etc. And you want people to treat these quotes of yours as real life events as passed on word for word immaculate and certain? Well I say BOLLOX to that elitist idiocy, and screw the story of Mr Yahweh Genocide Consciousness press you to the ground shove finger up your nose "i'm a righteous dictator" fabricated human egoic blinded selfish fantasy for a God, and go do something useful. I'm in constant bliss that I am liberated from your god and can tell that blind image of yours to KMA.:D

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Read: I cannot/willnot answer the Questions



Read: I cannot/willnot answer the Questions

Read: I cannot/willnot answer the Questions

Yeah Baby, I'm right on Target. :)


Bombs Awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyy!!!!!!


Lucifer, the Hate is from the Pagan Side.

For months all kasalt, or phil or 1977 have provided is some lukewarm sophistry.

Heathendom is pissed off because I exposed 'gnosis of christianity' to be a complete fraud. Completely untenable.

To teach other peoples a Fraud='gnosis of christianity', is not Love.

People complain about Glenn Miller and the other Exegesists because they dismantle the Pagans/Heathens erroneous arguments, which more often then not, is fairly easy to do. :)

All the obstructionism, misrepresentation, mischaracterization of the Book of Yahweh/Bible informs me that this has to be the Ultimate Truth.

And it is.

The Renewed Covenant/NT is picturing a Group of Men and Women, Led by Yahshua HaMessiah, who have Yahwehs Torah 'written' on their hearts.

Rather then being frightened, unnecessarily, by this Data, the Pagan/Heathen should shelve their Bias, and read the Book of Yahweh carefully and closely.

It is for you, and your peeps benefit.

Deliberate deception is not Love.


Kind Regards

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/athenian_charles.pdf




].......In addition to the Apostle’s ability to contextualize, strategic elements in the content of
his message are worthy of note as well. Against the materialist-rationalist world view of his
listeners, Paul demonstrates the folly of the gods of material creation. In his disputation the
Apostle presumes a monotheistic outlook, adjusting presuppositions in reigning world view.
Paul verifies the claims of divine revelation by introducing the notion of creatio ex nihilo and
bodily resurrection, the core of the Christian kerygma. Both concepts, inextricably related, are
untenable to the Hellenistic mindset, due to contemporary views of the universe, the body,
and the soul.46
Paul’s speech is a masterpiece of eloquence. His mode of addressing his audience with
“Men” (¥ndrej) followed by the designation “Athenians” (17:22)47 is thoroughly Greek,
allowing the audience immediately to feel at home. This is in keeping with Greek custom, yet
at the same time it reflects the official character of the address.48 Paul’s message, too, is
pregnant with irony. A prominent theme is human “ignorance” (¥gnwstoj, ¢gnošw v. 23;
¢gnoia v. 30), and this not only in a city of great learning but before the Areopagus Court,
which was composed of thirty of the most literate men of
[p.55]
Paul’s day. With the skill of a surgeon, the Apostle exploits the language and ideas of his
contemporaries. It is indeed fitting that before he is led in front of the Areopagus, Paul is
depicted by Luke as engaging in “dialogue”49 with Athenians in the agora.
Acts 17:16–34 conforms to a pattern of Hellenistic discourse, with its epistemological
and teleological emphases. Paul’s preaching thus cannot be confined narrowly to a normative
OT pattern, as some commentators have sought to do. Rather, it wraps universal truth in the
language and idiom of the day, culminating in a uniquely Christian expression of biblical
revelation, and inviting the listeners to a higher metaphysical ground[/FONT].

And that, Mon Amies: Les Petite Satans, Pagans/Heathens; is what you have missed, the invitation to a: 'wait for it'............................................... .................................................. .... "A Higher MetaPhysical Ground"


Stay Tuned................

and anybody, feel free to answer my Questions, which will answer your Questions.

It's always Symbiotic.....ain't it?

[kasalt]

Of course, I can answer those questions, but in your case, why should I bother?

[phildee3]

Of course, I can answer those questions, but in your case, why should I bother?



So that teacher can grade your paper and give you a D- to prove that you're wrong.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Of course, I can answer those questions, but in your case, why should I bother?

So that teacher can grade your paper and give you a D- to prove that you're wrong.

Your oburately obtuse sophistry has become both Banal & Tedious, your answers would provide some much needed 'Comedic Relief'.

Thank You, and;

Kind Regards

[phildee3]

...both Banal & Tedious,



Banality and tediousness come from frequent repetition of the same mantra.

[elirien]

I don't know what you people are on about, but this looks much more like a table football match rather then a theological discussion.

Get out once in a while and be silent.

:D

unsubscribing

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Here is a pretty comprehensive overveiw of this Spiritual Aberration:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm

GnosticismThe doctrine of salvation by knowledge. This definition, based on the etymology of the word (gnosis "knowledge", gnostikos, "good at knowing"), is correct as far as it goes, but it gives only one, though perhaps the predominant, characteristic of Gnostic systems of thought. Whereas Judaism and Christianity, and almost all pagan systems, hold that the soul attains its proper end by obedience of mind and will to the Supreme Power, i.e. by faith and works, it is markedly peculiar to Gnosticism that it places the salvation of the soul merely in the possession of a quasi-intuitive knowledge of the mysteries of the universe and of magic formulae indicative of that knowledge. Gnostics were "people who knew", and their knowledge at once constituted them a superior class of beings, whose present and future status was essentially different from that of those who, for whatever reason, did not know. A more complete and historical definition of Gnosticism would be:

A collective name for a large number of greatly-varying and pantheistic-idealistic sects, which flourished from some time before the Christian Era down to the fifth century, and which, while borrowing the phraseology and some of the tenets of the chief religions of the day, and especially of Christianity, held matter to be a deterioration of spirit, and the whole universe a depravation of the Deity, and taught the ultimate end of all being to be the overcoming of the grossness of matter and the return to the Parent-Spirit, which return they held to be inaugurated and facilitated by the appearance of some God-sent Saviour.

However unsatisfactory this definition may be, the obscurity, multiplicity, and wild confusion of Gnostic systems will hardly allow of another. Many scholars, moreover, would hold that every attempt to give a generic description of Gnostic sects is labour lost.

[primordialman]

Gnosticism is not a religion.
Every religion has it's gnostics.
Many gnostics are multi-faith.
Some adhere to none.



Incorrect what lead you to this conclusion.
The Manichees,mandaeans, cathar etc.. were organised and existing gnostic cults. Gnosticism can very much be an organised religious cult. And dont forget many freemasons & Order of the eastern temple, also consider themselves very much gnostics even if many gnostics of other types dont!.There is no objectivity on this subject it is all subjective thats why it is absurd for posters here to pretend to be authorities on it!.

Source for much of my info comes from Steven Hoeller http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_A._Hoeller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_A._Hoeller) whom has written several books on Gnosticism, including one of the same name!.

[relentless]

Gnostics and the Illuminati
________________________________________
Extract from "Not in His Image" by John Lash, Ch. 9, Schools for Coevolution
Quote:
Behavioral manipulation, psychological programming, and mind control were utterly repugnant to the genuine telestai of the ancient Mysteries. Such procedures represented to them a path leading away from consecration to Sophia and the Great Work of coevolving with nature, toward social engineering and personal power games. The goal of the telestai was to foster a sane and balanced society by helping individuals reach their peak potential, and never to interfere directly in social management.

Over the course of time some initiates did take the path of social engineering, however. Dissident members of the Gnostic movement who came to be known as “Illuminati” chose to use initiatory knowledge to develop and implement various techniques of behavior modification. Originally, the Illuminati were members of the Magian order, an ancient Persian lineage of shamanism from which the Gnostic movement was derived.*

Historians understand the Magi to have been the priesthood of Zoroaster, or Zarathustra. According to a scribal note written on the margin of Alciabides I, a work attributed to Plato, “Zarathustra is said to have been older than Plato by 6,000 years.”163 In her extraordinary and little-known book, Plato Prehistorian, Mary Settegast situates the rise of the Magian order, the original priesthood of ancient Iranian religion, in the Age of the Twins, around 5500 B.C.E., a date supported by the Greek sources. The Age of the Twins, or Geminian Age, lasted from 6200 to 4300 B.C.E. The motif of duality associated with the constellation of the Twins is consistent with the central theme of Iranian religion: absolute cosmic duality, Good versus Evil.

But this type of duality is not what we find in Gnostic teachings. The problem faced by the Magian predecessors of the Gnostics was the duality of human intention, not the dichotomy of cosmic absolutes. Around 4000 B.C.E., with the rise of urban civilization in the Near East, some members of the Magian order chose to apply certain secrets of initiation to statecraft and social engineering. They became the advisors to the first theocrats of the patriarchal nation-states, but in fact the advisors were running the show. Their subjects were systematically programmed to believe they were descended from the gods. The Illuminati inaugurated elaborate rites of empowerment, or kingship rituals. These rituals were in fact methods of mind control exercised on the general populace through the collective symbology and mystique of royal authority. Kingship rituals were distinct from the rites of initiation that led to instruction by the Light and consecration to the Great Goddess. Their purpose was not education and enlightenment, but social management.

Gnostics refrained from assuming any role in politics because their intention was not to change society but to produce skilled, well-balanced, enlightened individuals who would create a society good enough that it did not need to be run by external management. The intention of the dissident Magians to run society by covert controls was based on their assumption that human beings are not innately good enough, or gifted enough, to create a humane world. This difference in views of human potential was the main factor that precipitated the division of the Magians.

Historians recognize a split in the Magian order, but do not understand either its origin or its consequences. Within the order, the telestai were given the title of vaedemna, “seer,” “wise one,” as distinguished from the priest, the zoatar, who officiated openly in society and advised Middle Eastern theocrats on matters of statecraft and social morality, not to mention agricultural planning—for Zoroaster was by all accounts responsible for the introduction of planned, large-scale agriculture. It is generally agreed that women discovered by gathering plants how to cultivate them, and men later expanded this discovery into the ancient equivalent to agribusiness. So arose the first theocratic city-states in the Fertile Crescent. (Civilization may be defined as the way of life that begins by amassing vegetables to increase population, and ends with a population of vegetables.) Urban populations required social control, and the Illuminati assumed the role of planners and controllers—more often than not, hidden controllers.
source: http://www.metahistory.org/gnostique...minatiNIHI.php

and more
Quote:
According to an ancient legend that survives locally to this day, the lakeside city of Urmia was the birthplace of Zoroaster.

“A very old Magian center was located at Lake Urmia,” Settegast writes (p. 215). Some traces of this early settlement survive on the ground. Excavations at Hajii Firuz have produced rich archeological evidence, including a fired ceramic dish from the Halafian culture of Palestine, contemporary with it — i.e., the dish was brought to Urmia from Palestine. The décor shows the sixteen petal motif, the signature of the Mystery cells. (Settegast, plate 121a.) It is likely that the organization of the Mystery cults in the Near East, as well as the technique and teaching they transmitted, derive from the remote Iranian matrix.



The Magian Order spread from the Urmia basin in all directions: northward into the Caucasus mountains, southward into Iraq, eastward toward India, and westward into Asia Minor and Europe. But as dissemination proceeded, the Order gradually split into two distinct branches, Gnostics and Illuminati, as we might now call them. Each branch operated on different motives and methods.

[phildee3]

Incorrect what lead you to this conclusion.
The Manichees,mandaeans, cathar etc.. were organised and existing gnostic cults. Gnosticism can very much be an organised religious cult. And dont forget many freemasons & Order of the eastern temple, also consider themselves very much gnostics even if many gnostics of other types dont!.There is no objectivity on this subject it is all subjective thats why it is absurd for posters here to pretend to be authorities on it!.

Source for much of my info comes from Steven Hoeller http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_A._Hoeller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephan_A._Hoeller) whom has written several books on Gnosticism, including one of the same name!.

Bp Hoeller is a Christian gnostic.
Gnosis is knowledge.
To have knowledge you have to have knowlege of something.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Bp Hoeller is a Christian gnostic.
Gnosis is knowledge.
To have knowledge you have to have knowlege of something.

Ahoy!!!!!!!!!!!! phildee3, I can agree with that. Had you an accurate understanding of Yahwism/Judaism/Christianity would you still say it is obsolete or the peeps were misguided?

What do you think of the Following Data?
Tikun Olam..Recent Data suggests Western European Xns are 3,000 years behind the Curve on certain Conceptualisations-Co-Creators........


Biblical Ecology
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133735
Ahoy!!!! Note: If a Link fails, try C&P the Title into search engine.

Like the Torah/Instruction of Yahweh, Ecology/Enviromentalism is a continuum from Bereshith/Genesis all the way to The Revelation of Yahweh......

Here are some Illuminating/thought provoking Essays.

Yahweh charged us to be Stewards of His Garden, as of now we are behind the curve, yet hope is Eternal.

Let's do better by being wiser in our actions/consumerism.

Waste not, want not.


THE UNIVERSAL DESIRE FOR CLOSENESS TO G-D...AND THE SECRET OF THE SABBATHby Rabbi Chaim Richman

http://www.lttn.org/sabbath.html


The following teaching from the riches of the Oral Tradition is about a level of understanding the Sabbath which is relevant to Jews and non-Jews alike. It is based on a teaching by Rabbi Chaim ben Atar (1746-1793), known as "the holy Light of Life," based on the title of his most famous work.

I. The World Intuitively Pines for G-d
Man - The Centerpiece of Creation
The created world can be divided into four basic categories: the inanimate, plant, animal, and 'speaking' life - man. Man, the highest level of creation, is the only creature endowed with the capability of speech, and this is what singles him out as a completely separate category - he has the greatest potential to develop a relationship with his Creator. He is the center of creation and its purpose and crowning achievement. For this reason, he was created last, and introduced into the Garden... to enable him to enter into a complete world, ready for him, furnished and equipped in advance to house its illustrious occupant.

Every Level of Creation Possesses a Soul
Man is followed by the members of the animal kingdom. Next in line comes the plant kingdom, and finally, inanimate creation - the lowest level of creation, as exemplified by stone. Even stone, the Torah teaches, possesses some degree of life-force, however weak. For it is impossible for something which the Holy One has created to be incapable of recognizing Him. Therefore, commensurate to that degree of life-force, awareness of the Divine could be said to exist within it...

Desire for Closeness to G-d... The Prime Mover
And so the soul, the essence, of every creature, each according to its level of understanding, has some inkling of the greatness of the Creator, and actually carries on a relationship with Him. This soul is constantly driven with endless passion to come closer to the source of all life, the Great and Perfect Light of the L-rd... how much more so should this be true among the higher, more spiritual elements of creation who understand to some extent what it means to 'cling' to the light of the living G-d.

All of Creation is United in the Desire for Closeness to G-d
Herein lies one of the greatest secrets of creation...

All life on earth... and even the actual physical elements that comprise the planet itself - the entire world as one, including every level of creation, from the lowest level of the inanimate - stones and earth, to the highest and most intelligent life-form, man himself; an endless pageant which spans every creature, plant and animal - all are constantly and inexorably united by an all-consuming, burning desire for G-d. This is the vital force which drives the world; this desire is the power which fuels the universe... it reverberates within the entire life-force, and the whole globe, like a man beating with one heart, knows on the deepest level with absolute clarity that there is nothing as sweet, desirable, and sustaining as 'Dveykut' - the ability to 'cling' close to the light of the Creator. This is the purpose of life itself, and on the deepest collective intuitive level, all are aware that nothing else is worth living for. This longing is itself the vital life-force of everything, and the entire world draws from it at once. In other words, this longing for G-d is what fuels the world to go on.

Because G-d is the Creator of all existence, He maintains an intimate link with each and every creature, regardless of its spiritual capacity. Obviously not all of creation is equal in spiritual sensitivity. Regardless of this, that link of intimate knowledge still exists, according to its degree of conciousness and development.


Tzelem Elokim=Humankind as Image of Yah


Quote:
1: Has Intelligence

2: Has Freewill

3: Has component of Spiritual Being-A Soul

4: HaShem/YHWH Rules the Universe and Spirit World, Humans have dominion over the Lower World.

5: Has the faculty of Judgement

6: Has an inherent Holiness and Dignity
Quote:

Quote:
As created in the image of God, humans are endowed with "three intrinsic dignities": infinite value, equality, and uniqueness.

The first means that human life cannot be weighed, measured, or compared in terms of, that is, subordinated to, any other value. In the Kantian parlance Parlance humans are always a goal or end in themselves and never a means to something else.

The second term implies that no person or group is privileged over another. In fact, idolatry Idolatry results when a person or group absolutizes itself or its message.

The third idea reinforces the dignity of every human by insisting that each person is irreplaceable and has a special role to play in the redemption of the world.

The jewish religion is founded on the divine assurance and human belief that the world will be perfected." [5] Judaism engages with and seeks to overcome these realities of history through its notion of covenant. The covenant is that dynamic which God inaugurated in history, that partnership between God and the jewish people, to achieve the dignities for which all humans were created. Jews are those teachers, models, and co-workers-having both a divine and human partners - whom God designated to help all persons and even nature achieve redemption. For Greenberg, the messianic dream of perfection will not be realized by divine fiat, but by "improving this world, one step at a time."

These understandings of God, humans, and the world are expressed through the Torah and lived-out by the Jewish people through the Holy days and the Halakhah. In this view, Torah is that divine teaching which stands as "the constitution of the ongoing relationship of God and the Jewish people." Rabbi Greenberg

This expanded view/articulation of higher values help us to search for Yahwehs presence in the secular Realms of Life, some peeps call this: 'Holy Secularism'.

The Covenant is essentially a Divine, Loving, Pedagogic process. As Humans become more competent, Yahweh invites them to take up a more active role in the Task of Tikun Olam/World to Come, as Co-Creators.

The lay people of Yahweh play a more influential role in discerning Yahwehs purpose and in carrying out His Divine Mandates.

Later, ensuing Historical events reshape understandings of earlier Teachings.

Once upon a time in the Sinai Desert a most unusual occurence occured.

ORIGINS OF THE TORAH

http://judaism.about.com/library/3_a...mons_faith.htm


V'etchanan(Deuteronomy 3:23-7:11)
The Importance of National Revelation and the Shema

http://www.aish.com/tp/b/lp/48950931.html


TORAH FOR ALL ISRAELITE NATIONS

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles...ation/?page=26

In recorded History, the most significant event in the Sinai Desert was the National Revelation, a Public Meet & Greet with a mixed multitude of humanity by the Creator/Source known as Yahweh.

The Revelation of the Divine Name

http://www.theologicalstudies.org.uk...on_motyer.html

The Christian and Other Religions: the Biblical Evidence

http://www.theologicalstudies.org.uk...ons_wright.pdf

Three Revolutionary Innovations in Human History took place.

1: Monotheism

2:Universal Codified Law

3: An Aleph/Bet 1,800 BCE

Monotheism rather then Polytheism, Rule of Law for All rather then the Divine Rights of Kings or Queens and an Aleph/Bet, less then thirty characters that replaced Iconographs/Ideograms and Hieroglyphs, enhancin Literacy amongst the masses.

The abstraction of all these innovations were mutually reinforcing.

Yahweh proclaimed that there exists a Codex of morality that stands above Human intercourse.

The 10 Commandments applied universally to everyone. no King, Pharoah, or Potentate was above the Law.

Refutes the rubric that 'Might makes Right'.

Yahweh expected all His Chosen peeps TO READ what He inspired to be written.

The Pentateuch is the oldest Book written in an Aleph/Bet-Alpha/Bet. Prior books were written in Cuneiform, Hierglyphs etc......

Yahweh forbade anyone from visualising Him. No Images. No Idolatry.

He sanctioned only the written word.

This promulgates equality and openness.

An overarching Theme of the Pentateuch, and ensuing Books of the Bible is: Justice for all.

A distinguishing feature of the Pentateuch from other belief systems of the Time is its dominating Theme of: Righteousness,

Living a pious life and obeying written law was/is more important than winning Battles, honouring the King, or sacrificing to a local god.

Justice for all was a unique community standard in an era when the dominant principle was a raised and clenched fist.

Due to the Concept/Principle of Right Living, a unique type of leader arose amongst the Israelites: The Prophet.

Biblical Prophets; seemingly self-appointed, claiming to receive Testable Signals from Yahweh; witnessed and criticized Israeli behaviour;
confronting the peeps baser urges.

Unlike other ANE Sagas, the Prophets were usually not Royalty, heroes, warriors, they were commen men who railed against injustice and impiety. Constantly upbraiding/Chastizing/Rebuking Israelites; reminding them that Yahweh cared only that his people lived in Truth.

Prophets did not achieve their position by Birthright, appointment or election, they were Inspired and Just.

Unlike other ANE Sagas, the Exodus begins with the people shackled slaves.

Unlike other ANE Sagas, Yahweh 'Chose' the people rather then the people choosing their god.

is Genesis merely a rip-off of other ANE lit?http://christianthinktank.com/gilgymess.html


It is 2010 SpaceTime Planet Earth

From Rabbi Greenbergs book, referenced above.

Jews and Xns are redicovering 'The Image of Yah' in each other, after a coupla millenia of discord and animus.

This rediscovery allows each to uncover and affirm each others role in the Divine Plan. The Kingdom of Yahweh is advanced and comes closer.

'You are my witnesses says Yahweh' Isaiah 43:10

The People of Israel are Yahwehs Servants, 'Chosen' to witness to the loving Creator and the Divine Plan for Humanity and the Cosmos.

The People of Israel = not just the Israelis, or Jews, but to all who affirm that Yahweh has made a valid Covenant with Abraham and his descendants and all who take up the task of World Redemption so that the covenant can be fulfilled.

For that is the purpose of making the covenant.

Xns and Muslims are recognized as Abrahams children when they purge themselves of Supersessionist claims and hatred of Jews.

To be True to its Witness, the People of Israel tell 3 Stories to the World, the rest of Humanity, in the presence of Yahweh and in the presence of their fellow Humans.

1: They tell the Story of Creation, the Divine Vision of an intended perfect World. Jew & Xn stake their existence that this World will come to be.

2: The Story of the Covenant, the process operating between a Divine-Human partnership whereby our imperfect World will be brought back to that state of Perfection.

3: The Story of Redemption-sometimes called: 'The End of Days'-'The Messiah Story'-which is the culmination and realization of the process.

At the end, Holistic perfection will be achieved.

Peace between Humans.

Between Humans and all the rest of Life, between all Life and Nature itself, and between all of the above and Yahweh.

Three Stories add up to one comprehensive Story: The Triumph of Life.

Summarized

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We=ALL Living things-creatures-sustained and Nurtured by Yahweh-will fill the World with Life.

* We will reshape the Historical Reality, the Flesh & Blood world we inhabit, to sustain that Life at the highest possible level.

* Life will multiply and triumph Quantitatively over allits enemies; including Entropy, Death, and Disorder.

* Life will equally triumph Qualitatively.

* All of lifes capacities/potentials will be developed fully and realized.

* When Life blossoms to its fullest capacity that treats all Life, especially Human Life-the most developed form-and sustains it with the highest and fullest respect that it deserves, then Life will be in harmony with existence and deeply related to Yahweh, its Source and Sustainer(Natural Laws)

* This is the Jews Story, and by default; the Christians/Xns.

* Telling the Story of Creation is the Jews 'Witness'. The present evidentiary Facts contradict the Narrative fairly substantialy.

* Yet, This Story of Creation is shared by Jews and Xns.

* This Story leads Humans to see existence as best they can, from a Cosmic Perspective-Sub Specie Aeternitatis.

* From that Vantage Point there are Three Grand Movements in the unfolding Pattern of the Cosmos

1: The World is moving from Chaos to Order. From the Big Bang, with no Laws of Nature to the regularity of the Life sustaining Laws of Nature.

2: The World is moving from Non-Life to Life. From a State in which no life existed to the emergence of Life. From one cell, untold replications, life has grown Quantitatively, and developed Qualitatively. It has luxuriated and spread into a vast range of forms over and through a variety of sustaining conditions/environments.

* The declaration that Life is growing, moving from non-life to life is counter-intuitive.
Death & Entropy refute that contention.

The 'Key' is Yahweh-The Hidden, Infinite Source of Life with limitless Goodness, Love and Power that sustains Life and Nurtures every possible Form of Life into Being.

* Yahweh, the Divine Source evokes the Third Grand Movement of the Cosmos

3: Life is growing ever more to resemble its Ground: Yahweh.

Life moves from being less to becoming more and more like Yahweh. The highest form of Life, the Human Being, represents the High Point reached thus far.

In Human Form, life so resembles its Maker that it is called; Biblically; 'The Image of Yah'

* This emergence of "The Image of Yah" is the Turning Point in Cosmic History according to Jews & Xns.

Up to that point Life has been sworn to 'Be Fruitful & Multiply' (maximizing reproductive success) through a built-in control Programme-A 'Selfish Gene'- that drives the process.

* The 'Image of Yahs' Consciousness is so much like Yahwehs that Humans are able to 'grasp' this overall pattern of which we, ourselves are part, and to join voluntarily in its realization.

* Similarly, The Human 'Image of Yah' has a capacity to Love ALL their fellow creatures and every aspect of the Universe, as well as the Maker of it all and the Beauty of the Plan.

* Once Humans understand and embrace this understanding, they will lovingly identify with and willingly participate in the process of Perfection.

* Yahweh has invited us, as Humans, The 'Image of Yah', to enter into a Covenantal Partnership, committed to Love, to join fully in perfecting the Universe.

Tikun Olam

* The People of Israel joyfully acknowledge that Yahwehs first Covenant, the Noahide Covenant, never superseded, is made with ALL Humanity, not exclusively with Jews and/or Xns alone.

* It is made with ALL Sentient Beings.

* ALL Beings are called to recognize and participate in Natures Patterns.

* To accept Limits.

* To Direct their choices and actions in favour of Life.

* To join in working for Order against Chaos.

* We are ALL CHOSEN to become part of the movement from Non-Life to Life.

* We are commanded to increase Life and make it grow ever more like its Maker.


* The purpose of the Religious way of life is to create the nurturing ambience of memory and experience, of relationships and actions that sustain Human growth and turns it towards Yahweh.

* Being in the 'Image of Yahweh' brings with it more Yahweh like capacities. It bestows intrinsic Dignity, a climatic extension of that respect to which all of life is entitled.

* The People of Israel hold these Truths to be self-evident: That ALL Humans are created in 'The Image of Yahweh'; and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rightts, among which are:

* Infinite Value

* Equality

* Uniqueness.

These are Birthrights of every Son & Daughter of Yahweh


What occurred at/in Sinai was unique, the Authority of the Written Word superseded the authority of the Image.

Reiterating the Revolutionary Innovations that occurred at Sinai:

1: Monotheisn emerged,

2:Universal Codified Laws establishing Moral Ethics

3: The AlephBet-Proto AlphaBet emerged. The Hebrews reduced thosands of Images/Hieroglyphs/Petroglyphs/Ideograms/Pictograms into two dozen Characters, enabling Universal Literacy

For the first time ever, Religion demanded the follower be Literate. It is Commanded the Fathers obtain Scrolls of the Torah and teach them to their children.

Moses Commanded; Thou shall read the Law before all Israel Deut-31:10,11

The Reading of the Torah remains the most sacred obligation of every Jew.

Yahweh was concerned, unlike other gods, about the actions of everyone of His people.

Yahweh actually cares.

If someone was cheating/exploiting widows and orphans, mistreating strangers and slaves.etc.......YHWH knew and became wrathful.

The polytheistic gods did not.

Yahweh in His written Laws provided preventive Medicine, unknown to Egypt and Mesopotamis.

He explicitly spelled out in excruciating detail and minutia exactly what He expected from each and every Israelite.

Each Israelite established a personal relationship with Yahweh.

All of Yahwehs Laws were written down and everybody knew them.

It was an absolute Judaic condition that every male was literate.

Ignorance of the Law was no defence.

The Hebrews were the first to embrace Alphabetic writing, the Torah is the first Book written in an Alphbet.

The 10 Commandments were transmitted in a written Alphabetic form; Paleo-Hebrew.

Abstract letters/grammatical sequence/uniconsonantal phenomes.

The Alephbet/Alphabet introduced the possibility of Universal Literacy, so we may honestly thank and praise Yahweh that we are Literate!

All together now: Hallelu Yahweh!!!


Woot!!!! Wooot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So once upon a time way out in the Sinai Desert a radical new communication technology emerged that would forever change cultural perceptions and that the first people to utilize it would introduce fundamental principles and features underpinning Western Civilisation.

Historical Data: Proto-Sinatic Alphabet

Discovered by Sir William Flinders Petrie, very early 20th century. Dated to: 1,800 BCE

Egyptian Coptic 2,000 years later/after

Tell el Armana Cache Phoenician 1,450 BCE letters from Canaanite Leaders to Akhenaton were scribed in Cuneiform

Akkadian Cuneiform after Sumerian Conquest.

An amazing vortex of Science and History occurred in the Sinai that the worlds oldest alphabet was found where the Hebrew Nation had their seminal experience.


Who'd a thunk??


Aloha?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)




Some of the Science delivered in the Sinai:
http://balmofgilead.info/Macht1953.pdf

Are the OT Dietary Laws Still Applicable To NT Believers?
http://balmofgilead.info/?page_id=91

Laws of Reality:
None of these Diseases
Part II
~ 6~
I. Is the Law Good for Humanity?
http://yhwhexists.com/ch_6.PDF

The Owner's Manual
Chapter 1
Instructions and Signs
http://theownersmanual.net/

[phildee3]

Incorrect what lead you to this conclusion.
The Manichees,mandaeans, cathar etc.. were organised and existing gnostic cults. Gnosticism can very much be an organised religious cult.



Mani was a gnostic, as was Jesus, but one does not have to be a gnostic to follow either of their teachings exoterically.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Mani was a gnostic, as was Jesus, but one does not have to be a gnostic to follow either of their teachings exoterically.


Ahoy!!!!!!!!!!! phildee3, who is this 'Jesus' you speak of? :confused:

JESUS AND THE IDENTITY OF GOD
http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_JIG.htm

I've never seen any Bonafide, credentialed Evidence that Yahshua haMessiah/Jesus Christ was a 'gnostic'.

He was an Episteme......................Knowledge based upon Fact/s :)

And Jesus seems to have believed it about himself. The language was deeply coded, but the symbolic action was not. He was coming to Zion, doing what YHWH had promised to do. He explained his action with riddles all pointing in the same direction. Recognize this, and you start to see it all over the place, especially in parables and actions whose other layers have preoccupied us. Why, after all, does Jesus tell a story about a yearning father in order to account for his own behavior?[36] It is this that also accounts for his sovereign attitude to Torah, his speaking on behalf of Wisdom, and his announcement of forgiveness of sins.[37] By themselves none of these would be conclusive. Even if they are allowed to stand as words and actions of Jesus, they remain cryptic. But predicate them of the same young man who is then on his way to Jerusalem to confront the powers that be with the message and the action of the kingdom of God and who tells stories as he does which are best interpreted as stories of YHWH returning to Zion, then you have reached. I believe, the deep heart of Jesus’ own sense of vocation. He believed himself called to do and be what in the scriptures only Israel’s God did and was...................What are we therefore saying about the earthly Jesus? In Jesus himself, I suggest we see the biblical portrait of YHWH come to life: the loving God, rolling up his sleeves (Isa 52:10) to do in person the job that no one else could do, the creator God giving new life the God who works through his created world and supremely through his human creatures, the faithful God dwelling in the midst of his people, the stern and tender God relentlessly opposed to all that destroys or distorts the good creation, and especially human beings, but recklessly loving all those in need and distress. “He shall feed his flock like a shepherd; he shall carry the lambs in his arms; and gently lead those that are with young” (Isa 40:11). It is the OT portrait of YHWH, but it fits Jesus like a glove.

Certainly you agree with the Above Document in its entirety...............and this one........they are accurate portayals of The True Savior.

http://www.yahweh.com/pdf/12-2004-PW.pdf

Aloha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

[phildee3]

Ahoy!!!!!!!!!!! phildee3, who is this 'Jesus' you speak of? :confused:



Someone you have yet to meet, it seems.
Someone who knew!

Gnosis (from one of the Greek words for knowledge, γνῶσις) is the spiritual knowledge of a saint[1] or mystically enlightened human being.

What has "bonafide, credentialed evidence" to do with knowledge?
Either you know, or you don't!

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

If you actually 'knew' you wouldn't be a Judeophobic Crank who derogates that which they don't understand and misrepresent that which they don't 'know'. ;) You feelin' me..........:p

What part of the above documents do you disagree with?

'Gnosis of Christianity is a Fantasy/Fraud?

Who you kiddin? :D

You can't even say the mans given Hebrew Name.............

[c1138]

THEY created the problem, and THEY will come with the Solution. You have NO power over them except through Jesus. If you want to believe that you’re “evolving” to a “Higher Consciousness”, that’s your choice. This is what THEY WANT YOU TO BELIEVE. THIS IS THE GREAT WORK.
What you know as the “NWO” (banking/money) is a ghost, the REAL NWO, is New Age, and New Man, and Post Humanism. It’s the Pure Luciferian Doctrine.

You believing that you are god IS THE PLAN.
THIS is the New Age and the New Man, a COMPLETE LIE and you WILL lose your soul in it.

I have NO problem with knowledge but TRUE Knowledge, TRUE Light, NOT False Knowledge. And gnosticism, mysticism, kabbalism, and so on on is FALSE Knowledge…. You want to follow that path, by my guess… I did, and NOTHING good came out of it



Anyone operating under the delusion that we are "god" need only take a moment to look around.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

The “truth” of Mysticism, or gnosticism is NOT the overall truth. True Christianity is,and I discovered that BEFORE becoming “Christian”.


no religions are from God, they comes from the Mystery Schools “Knowledge”, Luciferian Knowledge mixed with some truths. The Bible is not a religion, True Christianity is not a religion.

God didn’t create the religions and the priesthood, Man and Satan did.
God didn’t create the confusion and the lies, Man and Satan did.

False Light. False Knowledge.
A True Luciferian would NEVER deny that it’s Knowledge of secrecy and bonding.
True Knowledge liberates.

Luciferian “Light”. I say it’s Great Lies, over half-truths, over propaganda, over simple “truths” view in the eyes of Man with a wicked sinful heart. How can you judge of what good for you?

Lucifer is a Cherubim, even a Luciferian will tell you that Lucifer is a FINITE being, and God is INFINITE.
He want to be infinite, but it’s impossible.
Jesus is the Light



Gnosticism has never born positive fruits. Jesus Christ continues to bear the most delicious fruit of truth ever known.

initiating the masses into a Gnostic worldview will culminate in a “Strong Delusion send by God” as the world joins Satan & the final Antichrist in their War on God.

and their new world relgion

This is Mystery Babylon ..it is the Mystery Schools Teachings, Kabbalah, from Babylon to Rome if you want. It’s Illuminism, it’s Luciferianism, it’s Gnosticism, it’s the New Age, the Masonic Lies, the Alchemist Philosopher Stone, the Great Work, the Magnus Opus. It’s the Spiritual Babylon. We fight a spiritual battle with physical consequences, with physical Babylons, from Economic USA Babylon, to the Religious ALL Powerful Holy See Babylon that will be the Universal Church in a Phoenix Rising New Age…


2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


more new age lies here

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Ahoy!!!!!!!!!!!! c1138:

A Great & Wonderful post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you very much, your lucid and insightful insights are most welcome and appreciated.

Thank you very much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aloha!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

[phildee3]

Ahoy!!!!!!!!!!!! c1138:

A Great & Wonderful post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you very much, your lucid and insightful insights are most welcome and appreciated.

Thank you very much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aloha!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

I get the feeling that you believe that by stating your opinion as forcefully as this makes it a fact.

It doesn't.

Truth stands perfectly strong as it is. It doesn't need flashy colours, font types and multiple exclamation marks.
Only weak things need them - in order to create a false strength.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

I get the feeling that you believe that by stating your opinion as forcefully as this makes it a fact.

It doesn't.

Truth stands perfectly strong as it is. It doesn't need flashy colours, font types and multiple exclamation marks.
Only weak things need them - in order to create a false strength.
yeah............well.......be that as it may............you certainly have demonstrated that you don't possess a clue about Truth.
It's been a coupla years yet you still won't answer the questions I posed to you; lo those many moons ago.

Why not? :confused: :rolleyes: ;)

Answer one question phildee3:

Matthew 4

4:1 Then was Yahshua led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of Elohim, command that these stones be made bread.

4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of Yahweh.=Deuteronomy 8:3

4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of Elohim, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

4:7 Yahshua said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt Yahweh thy Elohim. =Deuteronomy 6:16

4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

4:10 Then saith unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship Yahweh thy Elohim, and him only shalt thou serve. =Deuteronomy 6:13
4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

Matthew 22

22:34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

22:36 Rabbi, which is the great commandment in the law?

22:37 Yahshua said unto him, Thou shalt love Yahweh thy Elohim with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. =Deuteronomy 6:5

22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. =Leviticus 19:18

On prior occassions you have asserted that Yahshua haMessiah/Jesus Christ was not a servant of Yahweh and he was not Torah Conscious or Observant.

You also assert that YHWH is a negative entity that is deleterious to Humankind and Yahshua HaMessiah serves 'someone else'. :rolleyes:

You also assert that the Torah is obsolete.


Explain the above two Scriptural passages.



And yes, c1138 Posted an excellent Post that was perfectly truthful, backed by Theological/Ideological/Spiritual Evidence.

I am surprised you haven't realised yet that you have been duped by a lying Spirit.

What else can explain how persistently wrong your are?

Remember, Dr. Bullvinkle vonMoose and myself are standing by ready to render you assistance. :)

Aloha!!!!!!!!!! :)

http://www.eliyah.com/Scripture/

http://www.eliyah.com/thescriptures/

Ahoy!!!!!!!!!!! I found the questions. Remember I Posted them numerous times because you ignore them.

Saddle up:

'77: It is obvious to me and many others that 6 Queries are an insurmountable Challege for Zombie Christo-pagan gnostics, so let's try one, OK?


Quote:Post #302
Time to 'Pony Up'; answer the Queries.

1: So answer these queries: How do you Biblically define Righteous/ness; Sin; Iniquity?

2: Why does Yahshua Messiah and ALL His Apostles constantly; throughout the entire New Testament: Cite and Quote Directly from the Tanakh/Old Testament, the words of Yahweh, and Yahwehs Patriarchs and Prophets and tell everybody to Heed Them?

3: Do you deny that Yahshua HaMessiah and His Apostles were Torah Conscious and Observant Jews? If so, explain

4: Do you deny they went to the Synagogues on Yahwehs Sabbath and read from the Tanach? If so, explain.

5: Do you deny that they taught all Humans, Jews and Gentiles about Torah Consciousness and Torah Observation. If so, explain.

Bonus Query #6: You say the Patriarchs and Prophets of Yahweh are deceived; How So?

[dollanaqua]

U2- Yahweh - With Lyrics! - YouTube.

[phildee3]

Answer one question phildee3:

...

Explain the above two Scriptural passages.



That's not a question.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

yes it is. :p

[phildee3]

Explain the above two Scriptural passages.



Easy.
They are mistranlations.
The word "Yahweh" has been inserted in place of theou/theon.

[phildee3]

yes it is. :p

Then why no question mark?

[phildee3]

"Explain the above two Scriptural passages" is a demand, not a question.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

.........................it's a 'Trick' question..............., see?..it worked. :cool:

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

"Explain the above two Scriptural passages" is a demand, not a question.

Ignorance is a Steep Hill with perilous Rocks at the bottom.................Bon Voyage.

Have a nice day :)

[phildee3]

Ignorance is a Steep Hill with perilous Rocks at the bottom.................



........... or a stinking quagmire!

[phildee3]

.........................it's a 'Trick' question..............., see?..it worked. :cool:

No, it didn't.
My response was purely voluntary.
Don't flatter yourself to think that you (or your god) have any power over me.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

Ahoy!!!!! phildee3, you want to play games, you cannot be honest, read c1138s Post again, it is Truth, I ripped your mask/facade off 2 years ago.

You're not even puttin' on the dog anymore, fidos hep to ya.........

Explain the Scriptural example.

Remember last year I told you 2010 was gonna' be a tough year for 'gnosis of christianity'; well it is now universally exposed as a fraud/fantasy, and your nonsense is proof.



THEY created the problem, and THEY will come with the Solution. You have NO power over them except through Jesus. If you want to believe that you’re “evolving” to a “Higher Consciousness”, that’s your choice. This is what THEY WANT YOU TO BELIEVE. THIS IS THE GREAT WORK.
What you know as the “NWO” (banking/money) is a ghost, the REAL NWO, is New Age, and New Man, and Post Humanism. It’s the Pure Luciferian Doctrine.

You believing that you are god IS THE PLAN.
THIS is the New Age and the New Man, a COMPLETE LIE and you WILL lose your soul in it.

I have NO problem with knowledge but TRUE Knowledge, TRUE Light, NOT False Knowledge. And gnosticism, mysticism, kabbalism, and so on on is FALSE Knowledge…. You want to follow that path, by my guess… I did, and NOTHING good came out of it



Anyone operating under the delusion that we are "god" need only take a moment to look around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCpj6ZFuStg

The “truth” of Mysticism, or gnosticism is NOT the overall truth. True Christianity is,and I discovered that BEFORE becoming “Christian”.


no religions are from God, they comes from the Mystery Schools “Knowledge”, Luciferian Knowledge mixed with some truths. The Bible is not a religion, True Christianity is not a religion.

God didn’t create the religions and the priesthood, Man and Satan did.
God didn’t create the confusion and the lies, Man and Satan did.

False Light. False Knowledge.
A True Luciferian would NEVER deny that it’s Knowledge of secrecy and bonding.
True Knowledge liberates.

Luciferian “Light”. I say it’s Great Lies, over half-truths, over propaganda, over simple “truths” view in the eyes of Man with a wicked sinful heart. How can you judge of what good for you?

Lucifer is a Cherubim, even a Luciferian will tell you that Lucifer is a FINITE being, and God is INFINITE.
He want to be infinite, but it’s impossible.
Jesus is the Light



Gnosticism has never born positive fruits. Jesus Christ continues to bear the most delicious fruit of truth ever known.

initiating the masses into a Gnostic worldview will culminate in a “Strong Delusion send by God” as the world joins Satan & the final Antichrist in their War on God.

and their new world relgion

This is Mystery Babylon ..it is the Mystery Schools Teachings, Kabbalah, from Babylon to Rome if you want. It’s Illuminism, it’s Luciferianism, it’s Gnosticism, it’s the New Age, the Masonic Lies, the Alchemist Philosopher Stone, the Great Work, the Magnus Opus. It’s the Spiritual Babylon. We fight a spiritual battle with physical consequences, with physical Babylons, from Economic USA Babylon, to the Religious ALL Powerful Holy See Babylon that will be the Universal Church in a Phoenix Rising New Age…


2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


more new age lies here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=notumoo_lF8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6P1SvRbFlM


Thanx again c1138

[phildee3]

Ahoy!!!!! phildee3, you want to play games, you cannot be honest, read c1138s Post again, it is Truth, I ripped your mask/facade off 2 years ago.

You're not even puttin' on the dog anymore, fidos hep to ya.........

Explain the Scriptural example.

Remember last year I told you 2010 was gonna' be a tough year for 'gnosis of christianity'; well it is now universally exposed as a fraud/fantasy, and your nonsense is proof.



http://www.iseesmileys.com/smileys/Yahoo/Yawn.gif (http://www.iseesmileys.com)

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

http://www.iseesmileys.com/smileys/Animals_Dancing/Dancing_Wildcat.gif