Very old bible manuscript is being digitised

[tjohn]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7651105.stm

What is probably the oldest known Bible is being digitised, reuniting its scattered parts for the first time since its discovery 160 years ago. It is markedly different from its modern equivalent. What's left out?

The world's oldest surviving Bible is in bits. For 1,500 years, the Codex Sinaiticus lay undisturbed in a Sinai monastery, until it was found - or stolen, as the monks say - in 1844 and split between Egypt, Russia, Germany and Britain.

Now these different parts are to be united online and, from next July, anyone, anywhere in the world with internet access will be able to view the complete text and read a translation.

For those who believe the Bible is the inerrant, unaltered word of God, there will be some very uncomfortable questions to answer. It shows there have been thousands of alterations to today's bible.

The Codex, probably the oldest Bible we have, also has books which are missing from the Authorised Version that most Christians are familiar with today - and it does not have crucial verses relating to the Resurrection.

Anti-Semitic writings

The fact this book has survived at all is a miracle. Before its discovery in the early 19th Century by the Indiana Jones of his day, it remained hidden in St Catherine's Monastery since at least the 4th Century.

It survived because the desert air is ideal for preservation and because the monastery, on a Christian island in a Muslim sea, remained untouched, its walls unconquered.

Today, 30 mainly Greek Orthodox monks, dedicated to prayer, worship there, helped as in ages past by the Muslim Bedouin. For this place is holy to three great religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam; a land where you can still see the Burning Bush where God spoke to Moses.

The monastery itself has the greatest library of early manuscripts outside the Vatican - some 33,000, and a collection of icons second to none.

Not surprisingly, it is now a World Heritage Site and has been called a veritable Ark, bringing spiritual treasures safely through the turbulent centuries. In many people's eyes the greatest treasure is the Codex, written around the time of the first Christian Emperor Constantine.

When the different parts are digitally united next year in a £1m project, anyone will be able to compare and contrast the Codex and the modern Bible.

Firstly, the Codex contains two extra books in the New Testament.
One is the little-known Shepherd of Hermas, written in Rome in the 2nd Century - the other, the Epistle of Barnabas. This goes out of its way to claim that it was the Jews, not the Romans, who killed Jesus, and is full of anti-Semitic kindling ready to be lit. "His blood be upon us," Barnabas has the Jews cry.

Discrepancies

Had this remained in subsequent versions, "the suffering of Jews in the subsequent centuries would, if possible, have been even worse", says the distinguished New Testament scholar Professor Bart Ehrman.

And although many of the other alterations and differences are minor, these may take some explaining for those who believe every word comes from God.

Faced with differing texts, which is the truly authentic one?

Mr Ehrman was a born again Bible-believing Evangelical until he read the original Greek texts and noticed some discrepancies.

The Bible we now use can't be the inerrant word of God, he says, since what we have are the sometimes mistaken words copied by fallible scribes.

"When people ask me if the Bible is the word of God I answer 'which Bible?'"

The Codex - and other early manuscripts - omit some mentions of ascension of Jesus into heaven, and key references to the Resurrection, which the Archbishop of Canterbury has said is essential for Christian belief.

Other differences concern how Jesus behaved. In one passage of the Codex, Jesus is said to be "angry" as he healed a leper, whereas the modern text records him as healing with "compassion".

Also missing is the story of the woman taken in adultery and about to be stoned - until Jesus rebuked the Pharisees (a Jewish sect), inviting anyone without sin to cast the first stone.

Nor are there words of forgiveness from the cross. Jesus does not say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

Fundamentalists, who believe every word in the Bible is true, may find these differences unsettling.

But the picture is complicated. Some argue that another early Bible, the Codex Vaticanus, is in fact older. And there are other earlier texts of almost all the books in the bible, though none pulled together into a single volume.

Many Christians have long accepted that, while the Bible is the authoritative word of God, it is not inerrant. Human hands always make mistakes.

"It should be regarded as a living text, something constantly changing as generation and generation tries to understand the mind of God," says David Parker, a Christian working on digitising the Codex.

Others may take it as more evidence that the Bible is the word of man, not God.

[tjohn]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/2439897/Codex-Sinaiticus,-the-worldandrsquos-oldest-Bible,-goes-online.html

The Codex Sinaiticus is a complete transcription of Christian scriptures in Greek, written by scribes around 350AD. Together with another work, the Codex Vaticanus, it is considered the oldest known Bible in the world.

From Thursday, high definition images of the Codex will be available online to all as the first part of a project led by the British Library comes to fruition.

According to the library, the Codex is “a treasure beyond price”.

“Within its beautifully handwritten Greek text are the earliest surviving copy of the complete New Testament, and the earliest and best copies of some of the Jewish scriptures.”

More than 100 pages of the Bible will go online on Thursday, including 67 from the British Library and dozens from the University of Leipzig.

Within the next year pages will be added to the Codex website as digitisers scan more of its intricately inscribed vellum sheets.

Since it was discovered in Egypt more than 150 years ago by a German scripture expert, pages from the Codex have found their way to London, St Petersburg and Leipzig.

The remainder is still held by St Catherine’s monastery in Sinai, Egypt, where scholar Constantine Tischendorf unearthed it in 1844.

Tischendorf returned with parts of the Codex to Leipzig and then presented Russia’s Tsar Nicolas II with much of it in 1869.

Half a century later Josef Stalin, the Russian dictator, sold 694 pages to the British Library. The entire Codex comprises 1460 pages.

In 2005, a £650,000 digitisation project was launched to reunite the far-flung sections of the Codex.

Now, according to Ulrich Johannes Schneider, Leipzig’s library curator, “more than 100 pages, those from Leipzig and 67 from the British Library, will be available online at www.codex-sinaiticus.net (http://www.codex-sinaiticus.net) ."
(http://www.codex-sinaiticus.net.%E2%80%9D)

[titurel]

It used to be said that the Bible couldn't possible accurately transmit its message through time, because of copying errors and scribal political insertions. This was a prevalent academic (i.e. "Bible scholar") belief in the 19th century and early 20th century. Then the dead sea scrolls were discovered, with an entirely intact "Book of Isaiah". (23 foot long leather scroll.) In fact, every book in the OT except the Esther is there in varying degrees of intactness. And guess what. The Qumran Isaiah text was almost identical to the Masoretic texts of the 10th century which map to the OT. The "errors" are primarily either spelling or style, with occasional "lacunae" which are small holes in the leather that obliterate a single letter where they occur. Matching the Qumran Isaiah to the Masoretic text, which is nearly identical, the occasional lacunae caused missing letter could be mapped. In no case -- zero % -- did any of the trivial differences change the message of Isaiah at all. Nada. Zip. A detailed scholarly (and nit-picky) analysis of the Qumran Isaiah can be found here:

http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qum-1.htm

Therefore, based on what we know of oral cultures, plus what we now know about the accuracy of written transmission based on comparison to the Qumran texts, it is no longer a valid academic view that we can't know what they originally meant.

[tjohn]

Oh dear! It's beginning to look bad for bible believers!

[titurel]

It's a true statement and a fact. The context and meaning of the Bible has remained the same for thousands of years. The Dead Sea scrolls demonstrate this. The Bible has not changed.

Now if you want to argue that today there are different "versions" of the Bible printed, yes there are. And some of them have changed the context and meaning. However, the "original" translation from the Hebrew and Greek have not changed for thousands of years. The context and meanings are still there.

[1694]

It's a true statement and a fact. The context and meaning of the Bible has remained the same for thousands of years. The Dead Sea scrolls demonstrate this. The Bible has not changed.

Now if you want to argue that today there are different "versions" of the Bible printed, yes there are. And some of them have changed the context and meaning. However, the "original" translation from the Hebrew and Greek have not changed for thousands of years. The context and meanings are still there.

It's over mate, let it go. You will feel better. You can still be a good person, but your motivations will be your own.

[tjohn]

It's a true statement and a fact. The context and meaning of the Bible has remained the same for thousands of years. The Dead Sea scrolls demonstrate this. The Bible has not changed.

Now if you want to argue that today there are different "versions" of the Bible printed, yes there are. And some of them have changed the context and meaning. However, the "original" translation from the Hebrew and Greek have not changed for thousands of years. The context and meanings are still there.

Apparently you didn't read the articles.

[titurel]

It's over mate, let it go. You will feel better. You can still be a good person, but your motivations will be your own.
Don't tell me what to do, mate... I have enogh of the elite trying to tell me what to do. Once you stop telling people what to do, you will feel better and your motivations will be your own.

[titurel]

Apparently you didn't read the articles.
Yes, I did read the articles but they don't refer back to original manuscipts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

[1694]

Don't tell me what to do, mate... I have enogh of the religious elites trying to tell me what to do. Once religious leaders stop telling people what to do, you will feel better and your motivations will be your own.

corrected

[checkmate]

I fear that people will take this as truth. How can any document no matter how old or what it precedes be universally accepted? Even if the intent were honorable, translation errors and accepted definitions of words would affect it's meaning. It'll just be another vehicle for debate and create scholastic wars.

[titurel]

corrected
Don't twist what I worte. I was referring to anyone telling me what to do.

[titurel]

I fear that people will take this a truth. How can any document no matter how old or what it precedes be universally accepted? Even if the intent were honorable, translation errors and accepted definitions of words would affect it's meaning. It'll just be another vehicle for debate and create scholastic wars.
So what do you suggest? Do we have a mass book burning orgy like the Nazis did, and burn all Icke's books also?

[1694]

Don't twist what I worte. I was referring to anyone telling me what to do.

Then why accept the bible or people in positions of religious power telling you?

Although I was a bit of a cocky tit in my post, it has atleast got you thinking for yourself.

[titurel]

Then why accept the bible or people in positions of religious power telling you?
But I don't allow them to tell me what to do!

Although I was a bit of a cocky tit in my post, it has atleast got you thinking for yourself.
It appears to be the case you are not thinking for yourself because you've adopted stereotypical attitudes based on your prejudices.

[checkmate]

So what do you suggest? Do we have a mass book burning orgy like the Nazis did, and burn all Icke's books also?

Now that's a leap from what I posted. I was stating an opinion and you twist it around into an adgenda? Stop putting words into people's mouths and stick to posting your own "OPINIONS".

[kasalt]

It's a true statement and a fact. The context and meaning of the Bible has remained the same for thousands of years. The Dead Sea scrolls demonstrate this. The Bible has not changed.

Now if you want to argue that today there are different "versions" of the Bible printed, yes there are. And some of them have changed the context and meaning. However, the "original" translation from the Hebrew and Greek have not changed for thousands of years. The context and meanings are still there.

The Septuagint v. the Masoretic Text:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32990

[1694]

But I don't allow them to tell me what to do!


It appears to be the case you are not thinking for yourself because you've adopted stereotypical attitudes based on your prejudices.

Oxymoron.

[titurel]

How can any document no matter how old or what it precedes be universally accepted?
Okaay... I'll answer your question differently. One of of ascertaining whether any document is worthy or not is to investigate to see what it says measures up to what it says in the world about us, and when you investigate the hidden forces behind the building up of civilisation and the NWO globalisation agenda, then in respect to the Bible, it's spot on.

[titurel]

Oxymoron.
I disagree. Explain how you came to your conclusion...

[1694]

How can I be not thinking for myself if they were MY predudices? They are not someone elses that I read in a book and have to believe because my parents did.

[titurel]

The Septuagint v. the Masoretic Text:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32990
I've always maintained that it's important to refer to original texts rather than on later translations and versions of the Bible.

[titurel]

How can I be not thinking for myself if they were MY predudices? They are not someone elses that I read in a book and have to believe because my parents did.
They are your prejudices but prejudices are based on the lack of proper knowledge.

[tjohn]

Yes, I did read the articles but they don't refer back to original manuscipts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The Dead Sea scrolls are older than "the oldest Bible"? Well, I guess you must be right then. I have been lead to believe that the Dead Sea scrolls tell a somewhat different story than modern Bibles anyway. Not that I have read them myself they are hard to get hold of and there was or is some controversy about the Dead Sea scrolls that they don't want the public to see.

[1694]

They are your prejudices but prejudices are based on the lack of proper knowledge.

Nope, that is not the definition of a predudice. A predudice can be based on facts....I don't like sprouts because they taste bitter.

[titurel]

I have been lead to believe that the Dead Sea scrolls tell a somewhat different story than modern Bibles anyway.
But that's partly what I've been saying all along - it's important to refer back to original texts!

[tjohn]

The Dead Sea scrolls are older than "the oldest Bible"? Well, I guess you must be right then. I have been lead to believe that the Dead Sea scrolls tell a somewhat different story than modern Bibles anyway. Not that I have read them myself they are hard to get hold of and there was or is some controversy about the Dead Sea scrolls that they don't want the public to see.
And I notice that http://www.codex-sinaiticus.net does not show a translation yet! I wonder why that is?

[titurel]

Nope, that is not the definition of a predudice. A predudice can be based on facts....I don't like sprouts because they taste bitter.
Yes but I wasn't using prejudice in that context but in the context of views that aren't based on reason, such as when people stereotype people and tar all of a type with the same brush.

[1694]

Yes but I wasn't using prejudice in that context but in the context of views that aren't based on reason, such as when people stereotype people and tar all of a type with the same brush.

on the contratry, my views are the ones based on reason, yours are based on faith remember. The underpining of religion is that it even if it defiys reason it must still be believed.

[kasalt]

I've always maintained that it's important to refer to original texts rather than on later translations and versions of the Bible.

We don't have the "original texts" of the Bible, so what is your point?

[titurel]

on the contratry, my views are the ones based on reason, yours are based on faith remember. The underpining of religion is that it even if it defiys reason it must still be believed.
My views are largely based on empirical evidence and reason. Your views are partly based on stereotyping others and tarring everyone of a type with the same brush. I have also never defended religion. God is not religion.

[titurel]

We don't have the "original texts" of the Bible, so what is your point?
When I refer to original texts, I mean the oldest texts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

[kasalt]

When I refer to original texts, I mean the oldest texts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The problem with that is that there are points of disagreement within the Dead Sea Scrolls themselves.

[checkmate]

Okay say they are proven to be the oldest historical text, does that really prove anything except that fact that someone at that time had an adgenda? Let's face it all gospels and stories in the bible are re-told therefore subject to individual predudices and translations. They might be useful for revealing the political and religious pressures at the time but that is about it.

Now tell me they found original writings by Jesus and could prove it and then I'd say you had an original version of the bible, but then again what does that mean? Who was Jesus?

If anything in these texts can be proven to dicredit the accepted versions of the bible, then I doubt they will be released for public knowledge. Maybe a few excerpts would appear on the net but the powers that be would not allow that to happen unless they are ready to collapse accepted regilious beliefs.

[titurel]

The problem with that is that there are points of disagreement within the Dead Sea Scrolls themselves.
To understand ancient texts is a very complex issue and contradictions may not always appear to be contradictions, but in any event, the overall insights of the Bible are very clear and are congruent with the revelations that come from actually studying the hidden forces behind the NWO agenda and civilisation about us. Unfortunately, many can't see the wood for the trees because they're bogged down by apparent details.

[titurel]

Okay say they are proven to be the oldest historical text, does that really prove anything except that fact that someone at that time had an adgenda? Let's face it all gospels and stories in the bible are re-told therefore subject to individual predudices and translations. They might be useful for revealing the political and religious pressures at the time but that is about it.

Now tell me they found original writings by Jesus and could prove it and then I'd say you had an original version of the bible, but then again what does that mean? Who was Jesus?

If anything in these texts can be proven to dicredit the accepted versions of the bible, then I doubt they will be released for public knowledge. Maybe a few excerpts would appear on the net but the powers that be would not allow that to happen unless they are ready to collapse accepted regilious beliefs.
That is what I say compare what the Bible reveals with what can be gleaned from studying the hidden forces behind the world about you.

[tjohn]

When I refer to original texts, I mean the oldest texts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The Dead Sea scrolls are of the Hebrew (OT) texts but "the oldest bible" the Codex Sinaiticus is the NT plus a few books from the OT. It is the oldest bible with the NT included. That's an important difference for Christians because amongst other things, it does not have crucial verses relating to the Resurrection.

For those who believe the Bible is the inerrant, unaltered word of God, there will be some very uncomfortable questions to answer. It shows there have been thousands of alterations to today's bible. The Codex, probably the oldest Bible we have, also has books which are missing from the Authorised Version that most Christians are familiar with today - and it does not have crucial verses relating to the Resurrection. So it looks like all the stuff about Jesus that makes him fit into the idea of a sun god has been added later, so Christians have been worshipping the sun without them knowing it.

[titurel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

The Dead Sea scrolls are of the Hebrew (OT) texts but "the oldest bible" the Codex Sinaiticus is the NT plus a few books from the OT. It is the oldest bible with the NT included. That's an important difference for Christians because amongst other things, it does not have crucial verses relating to the Resurrection.
And what in your opinion is the doctrine of the resurrection that's omitted?

So it looks like all the stuff about Jesus that makes him fit into the idea of a sun god has been added later, so Christians have been worshipping the sun without them knowing it.
I would agree with that. Many Christians have been worshipping Pagan ideology without knowing it.

[tjohn]

And what in your opinion is the doctrine of the resurrection that's omitted? I don't know exactly what has been omitted, or rather added in later texts - because it hasn't been translated for us to read yet but it is my opinion that it will not say that Jesus was resurrected.

There were many 'books' that the church of Rome didn't allow into the bible canon and some of these, even then, didn't mention that Jesus rose from the dead.

[titurel]

I don't know exactly what has been omitted, or rather added in later texts - because it hasn't been translated for us to read yet but it is my opinion that it will not say that Jesus was resurrected.
Then we'll have to wait and see and then have that debate once it has been translated.

There were many 'books' that the church of Rome didn't allow into the bible canon and some of these, even then, didn't mention that Jesus rose from the dead.
I'm not a follower of the Church of Rome.

[tjohn]

I'm not a follower of the Church of Rome.
Didn't think you was for a moment!

[titurel]

Didn't think you was for a moment!
At least that's clear then.

[tjohn]

At least that's clear then.Of course its clear. I'm new on here but even I can tell that you have some logical sense... saying that, just in case I forget where some people are at, let it be known that I do tend to forget things because I have at touch of ME/CFS and at 60, well, I'm getting old-ish now.

[titurel]

Of course its clear. I'm new on here but even I can tell that you have some logical sense... saying that, just in case I forget where some people are at, let it be known that I do tend to forget things because I have at touch of ME/CFS and at 60, well, I'm getting old-ish now.
I'm sorry to hear of your condition.

[checkmate]

That is what I say compare what the Bible reveals with what can be gleaned from studying the hidden forces behind the world about you.

They are so confident that they will suceed they don't bother disguising their agenda anymore.

For example this video clearly shows the change from subliminal warnings to exposure of their existence and the players:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39283

One more ditty for today: Warren Buffet is investing in the railroad stocks in the US market. Why would anyone do that??? Hmmmm....

[oiram]

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[titurel]

They are so confident that they will suceed they don't bother disguising their agenda anymore.
It's true that they are increasingly revealing their agenda, but then they would have to to make their ambition a reality. However, there is still much that they hide and many of the things they hide, and have hidden in the past, were written about in the Bible long before they started coming out with their plans. The revelation of their hidden conspirings has long been prophesied about also:

"But you, O Daniel, make secret the words, and seal up the book, until the time of the end: many shall rove about, and the true knowledge shall become abundant." - Daniel 12:4

"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." - Daniel 12:9-10

"Whatever is covered up will be uncovered and every secret will be made known. Wherefore what things you say in the darkness will be heard in the light, and what you whisper in private rooms will be preached from the housetops." - Luke 12:2

[oiram]

BANNED FROM THE BIBLE
The Stories That Were Deleted From Biblical History

Thursday, December 25 at 9 pm ET/PT on The History Channel

NEW YORK, Dec. 19 /PRNewswire/ -- When Jesus was a boy, did he kill
another child? Was Mary Magdalene a prostitute -- or an apostle? Did Cain
commit incest? Will there be an apocalypse or is this God's trick to scare us?
The answers to these questions aren't found in the Bible as we know it, but
they exist in scriptures banned when powerful leaders deemed them unacceptable
for reasons both political and religious. BANNED FROM THE BIBLE reveals some
of these alternative tales and examines why they were "too hot for
Christianity." The two-hour world premiere BANNED FROM THE BIBLE airs on
Christmas, Thursday, December 25 at 9 pm ET/PT.
The Life of Adam and Eve, The Book of Enoch, The Book of Jubilees, The
Infancy Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Mary, The Apocalypse of Peter...these
are just a few of the books that were left out of the Bible. The reasons why
they were excluded provide astonishing insight into the concerns of church
leaders and scholars responsible for spreading the faith an illuminating look
at early Christian and religious history.
One hundred and fifty years after the birth of Jesus, a man named Marcion
decided that a Christian Bible was needed to replace the Hebrew Bible. Church
leaders opposed Marcion's banning of the Hebrew books, but they did agree that
Christians should have a Bible to call their own. After Constantine the Great
converted to Christianity in the 4th century, a serious effort was made to
compile a Christian Bible, one that included both the Hebrew scriptures (the
Old Testament) and Christian manuscripts (the New Testament). It took another
40 years before a final list of New Testament books was officially canonized
by the church. Many of the most popular were excluded. Upon examination today,
many of these writings attempt to resolve inconsistencies and questions raised
from reading the Bible.
BANNED FROM THE BIBLE examines the stories in some of these books, how
they were rediscovered and what they might mean to us today. Included are:

* The Life of Adam and Eve: A more detailed story of creation than what
is found in Genesis, this book includes jealous angels, a more devious
serpent, and more information about Eve's fall from grace from her
point of view.

* The Book of Jubilees: This obscure Hebrew text offers an answer to a
question that has vexed Christians for centuries -- if Adam and Eve
only had sons, and if no other humans existed, who gave birth to
humanity? This text reveals that Adam and Eve had nine children and
that Cain's younger sister Awan became his wife. The idea that humanity
was born of incest would have been radical -- and heretical.

* The Book of Enoch: This scripture reads like a modern day action film,
telling of fallen angels, bloodthirsty giants, an earth that had become
home to an increasingly flawed humanity and a divine judgment to be
rendered though denied a place in most Western Bibles; it has been used
for centuries by Ethiopian Christians. Large portions of this book were
found as part of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

* The Infancy Gospel of Thomas: The only book that deals with young
Jesus, it indicates that Jesus was a strong-willed child who one
historian describes as "Dennis the Menace as God." The book reveals
that at age five, Jesus may have killed a boy by pushing push him off a
roof and then resurrected him. Perhaps too disturbing for inclusion in
the Bible, this book seems to contain traditions, also known to the
Koran.

* The Protovangelion of James: This book offers details of the life of
the Virgin Mary, her parents, her birth and her youth, stories not
found in the New Testament Gospels but was beloved by many early
Christians.

* The Gospel of Mary: This Gnostic Text reveals that Mary Magdalene may
have been an apostle, perhaps even a leading apostle, not a prostitute.
While some texts in the Bible seem to deny women a voice in the
Christian community, this texts helps spark the debate about the role
of women in the church.

* The Gospel of Nicodemus: This is the story of Jesus's trial and
execution and his descent into hell. According to this gospel the
Savior asserts his power over Satan by freeing patriarchs such as Adam,
Isaiah and Abraham from Hell.

* The Apocalypse of Peter: Peter's apocalypse suggests that there is a
way out of punishment for evildoers and implies that the threat of the
apocalypse is a way for God to scare people into living a moral life,
and committing fewer sins.

These books are just a sampling of the hundreds that were never included
in the Holy Bible. Perhaps there are more to be found. Whether one believes
these alternative stories or not, they do provide an interesting perspective
of the religious culture and propensities of the time.
BANNED FROM THE BIBLE features commentary from Bible experts and
historians including Marvin Meyer, PhD, Professor of Bible and Christian
Studies, Chapman University; Daniel Smith-Christopher, Ph.D, Professor of
Religious Studies, Bluffton College; Anthea Butler, Ph.D, Department of
Theological Studies Loyola Marymount University; and John Dominic Crossan,
Ph.D, Professor Emeritus, DePaul University.
Margaret Kim is the executive producer of BANNED FROM THE BIBLE for The
History Channel. BANNED FROM THE BIBLE was produced for The History Channel by
FilmRoos.
Now reaching 86 million Nielsen subscribers, The History Channel,(R)
"Where the Past Comes Alive,(R)" brings history to life in a powerful manner
and provides an inviting place where people experience history personally and
connect their own lives to the great lives and events of the past. The History
Channel received the prestigious Governor's award from the Academy of
Television Arts & Sciences for the network's "Save Our History(R)" campaign
dedicated to historic preservation and history education. The History Channel
web site is located at http://www.HistoryChannel.com.

There are plenty of places to find out just how the bible came into being. After I studied its' origins, I changed my mind about its' message. Maybe you will see something I didn't.

ABout 15 years ago, some guy named John (something or other) made a television show called "Testament" that aired on the History channel. It was fascinating how detailed he got about every single book. I'm sure some googling would turn it up.
http://2cents.dailyreckoning.com/viewtopic.php?t=36881&start=135

[oiram]

Very old bible manuscript is being digitisedhttp://2cents.dailyreckoning.com/viewtopic.php?p=417609#417609
Over the centuries, however, the cults of the "Baalim" became merged and several specific larger cults developed. The best known of these was the cult of the Syrian god Melqart, worshiped by King Ahab of Israel and his "wicked" wife Jezebel. It was this Israelite worship of Baal which was challenged by the Hebrew prophet Elijah in his famous conflict with the prophets of Baal
on Mount Carmel in I Kings 18, when he challenged the false prophets to bring down fire from heaven. When the prophets of Baal failed to do so, Elijah's God did so, resulting in the slaughter of the prophets of Baal by an angry mob. But the worship of the god was not so easily extinguished.

The god or gods called Baal normally required the sacrifice of children, often the first-born male child, by sacrifice by fire. It has been suggested that the famous story of Abraham's sacrifice of his son Isaac, when God told Abraham to sacrifice his son and then forbade the sacrifice at the last moment, was told to the ancients as a dramatic and instructive narrative which commanded the Hebrews not to follow the pagan cults of the land. It was as if to say that even the great patriarch himself did not sacrifice his son, but it was only a test of his faith, and so too good Hebrews must not follow the practice of the people of the land however tempted they were.
There is no phukking god. And there sure as shit ain't no phukking god that demands sacrifices of children. Christianity, Judaism, and Muslimism (ha) are the decorated heritage that doc wants you all to be proud of. Indeed, you should rather hang your heads in shame that such childish nonsense ever made it into your homes.
http://www2.redlandsdailyfacts.com/opinions/ci_4994242
http://www.renaissance.com.pk/JanIslamiShari12y5.htm

Say: ‘My prayer and my sacrifice, my life and my death, are all for God, Lord of the Universe. (6:162)

When Abraham (sws) was directed to sacrifice a ram in place of his son and to commemorate this great sacrifice make it a living tradition for the coming generations, the Almighty said: ‘وَ فَدَيْنَهُ بِذِبْحٍ عَظِيْم’ (And We ransomed Ishmael for a great sacrifice; (37:107)). The implication of these words was that the vow made by Abraham (sws) had been accepted by the Almighty and now generation after generation, people would commemorate this great incident by sacrificing animals.

Viewed thus, the sacrifice is the pinnacle of worship. When we make an animal stand or bow down1 in the direction of the Baytullah and also direct our own face towards the House of God and present the sacrificed animal as an offering to God by saying2: ‘بِسْمِ اللهِ وَ اللهُ اَكْبَرْ’, we are actually offering our ownselves to God.

This offering is the essence of Islam because the meaning of Islam is that one should surrender to God and submit his most prized possession – so much so, his own life – to Him.

A little deliberation shows that the sacrifice is a portrayal of this essence. When Abraham (sws) and his great son Ishmael presented themselves to God, the Qur’an called this submission as ‘Islam’: ‘فَلَمَّا أَسْلَمَا وَتَلَّهُ لِلْجَبِينِ (103:37)’ (Then when both of them submitted and the father made his son lie on his temples; (37:103)). It is worth noting that in the above quoted verses of Surah Hajj the words ‘فَلَهُ أَسْلِمُوا وَبَشِّرِ الْمُخْبِتِينَ’ very aptly point to this essence. The implication is that if our hearts are bowed down before our God then we should submit ourselves to Him because our God is one God. This is the very essence of sacrifice and the Almighty has made it part of the Shari‘ah so that people can especially express their gratitude to Him; therefore, no one should associate partners with Him.

crap.http://2cents.dailyreckoning.com/viewtopic.php?p=417609#417609
Ancient Baal
Baal (or more properly Ba'al) was worshipped as far back as three and a half thousand years ago among ancient Semitic tribes, such as the descendants of Shem (for those with a Biblical bent, he's believed by some religious scholars to be the oldest son of Biblical Noah) and as late as the Punic wars of the third century BCE. Some say that there are elements of Baal worship which can still be seen today in various cultures of the Middle East -- and maybe even in your own backyard.

In early Semitic languages, Baal meant "master" or "owner" -- and still even means "husband" in modern Hebrew. Thousand of years ago, Baal could also denote "sun", "lord" or "god" in its highest reverence. Baal was a common name for several small Syrian and Persian deities, but principally known as a Canaanite fertility deity. Baal was widely worshiped by another an offshoot culture spawned from the Canaanites, the Phoenicians who eventually founded a civilization based out of famed Carthage that controlled the Mediterranean for 500 years.

If you bothered to educate yourself instead of believing in that horseshit Jewish religion, just maybe humans may be able to find a way out of this morass of religious idiocy.
http://www.baal.com/baal/about/divine_overview.shtml

[tjohn]

"But you, O Daniel, make secret the words, and seal up the book, until the time of the end: many shall rove about, and the true knowledge shall become abundant." - Daniel 12:4

"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." - Daniel 12:9-10

"Whatever is covered up will be uncovered and every secret will be made known. Wherefore what things you say in the darkness will be heard in the light, and what you whisper in private rooms will be preached from the housetops." - Luke 12:2So there you have it titurel, even from the bible itself! It's a bit like all those masonic symbols that people don't see and the bible was written and translated by the same sort of people http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6941/freemasonnrywatchgc8.jpg

[titurel]

So there you have it titurel, even from the bible itself! It's a bit like all those masonic symbols that people don't see and the bible was written and translated by the same sort of people http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6941/freemasonnrywatchgc8.jpg
Anyone can translate the Bible, John, but that doesn't mean it's Masonic. The reason why Freemasonry is so attached to the Bible, and places it on their altars, etc., is because they've adopted it in order to mislead as many as possible and because Freemasonry is largely based on the Kabbalah, which is a perversion of the Bible. If you want to pervet the truth, the best way to do so is to hijack it and present it as something entirely different. If Freemasonry was so enamoured of the Bible, they wouldn't spend so much time in its secretive rituals defaming it, such as in this ritual in which John Robison, Professor of Natural Philosophy, at the University of Edinburgh, reported that they stab the Lamb. Yes they even symbolically stab Jesus Christ behind closed doors, so don't tell me that Freemasonry honours the Bible because only a gullible fool would fall for that... The masonic Grand Orient initiation ceremony quoted by author of one investigation, John Robison:

"A candidate for reception into one of the highest orders after having heard many threatenings denounced against all who should betray the secrets of the order, was conducted to a place where he saw the dead bodies of several who were said to have suffered for their treachery. He then saw his own brother tied hand and foot, begging his mercy and intercession. He was informed that this person was about to suffer the punishment due for this offence, and that it was reserved for him (the candidate) to be the instrument of this just vengeance, and that this gave him the opportunity of manifesting that he was completely devoted to the order.

It being observed that his countenance gave the signs of inward horror he was told, that in order to spare his feelings, a bandage should be put over his eyes. A dagger was put into his right hand, and being hoodwinked, his left hand was laid on the palpitating heart of the criminal, and he was ordered to strike. He instantly obeyed; and when the bandage was taken from his eyes, he saw it was a lamb he had stabbed." (Robison, Proofs Of A Conspiracy p.299)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0766181243/102-0767373-1216160?v=glance&n=283155

[tjohn]

Anyone can translate the Bible, John, but that doesn't mean it's Masonic. I didn’t say the Bible itself was Masonic, I said “the same sort of people” wrote it and “the same sort of people” are generally behind translating it and “the same sort of people” such as the modern day so-called illuminati, are behind the major religions (surely you knew that already!) and their influence goes through all religious sects and religious doctrines that confuse and disguise the truth about who or what God is, where we came from, the meaning of life and so on.

They make it so complicated with all the conflicting doctrines and at the end of the day, it doesn’t usually make anyone a ‘better’ person and all too often religion has had people doing terrible things. Religion (or religious doctrines and beliefs) divide people into ‘us and them’ – the righteous and the unrighteous – the ‘saved’ and the ‘sinners.’ It’s the same old story of divide and rule, order out of chaos. Problem – Reaction – Solution – Control - Oppression (how about that, David?).

The reason why Freemasonry is so attached to the Bible, and places it on their altars, etc., is because they've adopted it in order to mislead as many as possible and because Freemasonry is largely based on the Kabbalah, which is a perversion of the Bible. The Bible is a perversion of earlier texts anyway. From what I know about Kabbalah it is as close and in some ways closer to the truth than most religions but as far as I know it still complicates things and misses the point as all religions do. You say that Kabbalah is run by the ‘Brotherhood’ or the ‘illuminati’ or whoever they are. Well, if you look into it all the religions are controlled by such people or at the very least are influenced by them through doctrines.

If you want to pervert the truth, the best way to do so is to hijack it and present it as something entirely different. That’s right and that is what has been done when the Bible was written and composed.

If Freemasonry was so enamoured of the Bible, they wouldn't spend so much time in its secretive rituals defaming it, such as in this ritual in which John Robison, Professor of Natural Philosophy, at the University of Edinburgh, reported that they stab the Lamb. Yes they even symbolically stab Jesus Christ behind closed doors, so don't tell me that Freemasonry honours the Bible because only a gullible fool would fall for that... The Masonic Grand Orient initiation ceremony quoted by author of one investigation, John Robison:
"A candidate for reception into one of the highest orders after having heard many threatenings denounced against all who should betray the secrets of the order, was conducted to a place where he saw the dead bodies of several who were said to have suffered for their treachery. He then saw his own brother tied hand and foot, begging his mercy and intercession. He was informed that this person was about to suffer the punishment due for this offence, and that it was reserved for him (the candidate) to be the instrument of this just vengeance, and that this gave him the opportunity of manifesting that he was completely devoted to the order.

It being observed that his countenance gave the signs of inward horror he was told, that in order to spare his feelings, a bandage should be put over his eyes. A dagger was put into his right hand, and being hoodwinked, his left hand was laid on the palpitating heart of the criminal, and he was ordered to strike. He instantly obeyed; and when the bandage was taken from his eyes, he saw it was a lamb he had stabbed." (Robison, Proofs Of A Conspiracy p.299)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/076...lance&n=283155 Well, they stab the Lamb but who was the Lamb of God? Jesus? The story about a sacrificial Lamb who takes away the sins of the world, goes back many thousands of years before Jesus was born!

[titurel]

I didn’t say the Bible itself was Masonic, I said “the same sort of people” wrote it and “the same sort of people” are generally behind translating it and “the same sort of people” such as the modern day so-called illuminati, are behind the major religions (surely you knew that already!) and their influence goes through all religious sects and religious doctrines that confuse and disguise the truth about who or what God is, where we came from, the meaning of life and so on.
It's true the 'illuminati' are behind the world's religions but the beliefs of these people are totally opposite to teachings of the Bible. They worship the Serpent, so there's no way I can agree with you that the same sort of people who have translated some translations of the Bible are the same sort of people that wrote the Bible.

They make it so complicated with all the conflicting doctrines and at the end of the day, it doesn’t usually make anyone a ‘better’ person and all too often religion has had people doing terrible things. Religion (or religious doctrines and beliefs) divide people into ‘us and them’ – the righteous and the unrighteous – the ‘saved’ and the ‘sinners.’ It’s the same old story of divide and rule, order out of chaos. Problem – Reaction – Solution – Control - Oppression (how about that, David?).
Once again, God is not a religion! Christ did not want to start a religion, he wanted people to discover who they are and attain a higher consciousness. I'm sorry you find it all so complicated that you can't make head nor tails of it, but you should speak for yourself because I certainly have found no conflicting doctrines and I don't have difficulty understanding the messages of Christ and the prophets. I agree religions have done terrible things! To begin with, the religious leaders of Christ's day conspired to have him killed, and the record of organised religions speaks for itself in respect to the blood they have spilt in their quest for domination and worldly pursuits... quite the opposite of what Christ's teachings, especially when he said his kingdom was no part of this world.

The Bible is a perversion of earlier texts anyway. From what I know about Kabbalah it is as close and in some ways closer to the truth than most religions but as far as I know it still complicates things and misses the point as all religions do.
The Bible is not a perversion of earlier texts and the Kabbalah is a perversion of the Bible because it teaches the opposite to what the prophets and Christ taught. At the root of the Kabbalah is the reptilian Serpent who is the mastermind of civilisation and the root of the Kabbalah.

You say that Kabbalah is run by the ‘Brotherhood’ or the ‘illuminati’ or whoever they are. Well, if you look into it all the religions are controlled by such people or at the very least are influenced by them through doctrines.
Here I have to agree with you because the religions of the world were created by those that venerate the Kabbalah. We have it from the horses mouth, so to speak that they do because one of Freemasonry's most highly honoured adepts wrote:

"All the truly dogmatic religions have issued from the Kabbalah and return to it: everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of the Illuminati, Jacob Boehme, Swedenborg, Saint-Martin and others, is borrowed from Kabbalah, all the Masonic associations owe to it their secrets and their symbols." (Sovereign Grand Commander of Freemasonry, Albert Pike 33, "Morals and Dogma", p.744)

So there you have it! So-called Christian religions are not based on the Bible, but rather the Kabbalah! This is why so much of Revelation describes Christendom as Babylon the Great, the Harlot who fornicated with the political rulers of the earth.

That’s right and that is what has been done when the Bible was written and composed.
The 'illuminati' have hijacked the Bible so they can present it as something entirely contrary and thereby they blaspheme God and accuse him of being a liar but this issue will be settled at Armageddon, just as they hope to complete their hijacking of the destiny of humanity, in their quest of their ancient dream... their global godless world order. The global tribulations the world is now enduring have long since been prophesied about by Christ and the prophets and these prophecies are today being fulfilled... further reason why this Babylonian Brotherhood would not have been responsible for the authorship of the Bible because Christ and prophets prophesied they would be exposed and their dreams of world domination brought to nothing.

Well, they stab the Lamb but who was the Lamb of God? Jesus? The story about a sacrificial Lamb who takes away the sins of the world, goes back many thousands of years before Jesus was born!
It's true there are significant figures in pre-Christ history who appear to have had a similar life structure to that of Christ but not one of these pre-Christ stories describes and of these figures as having sacrificed their lives for humanity. Not one of them! In this regard, Jesus Christ's self sacrifice for humanity is totally unique and I challenge you to find a single account that contradicts what I've just written. This still leaves the question how can it be that there can be similar accounts that mirror other aspects of the Christ story but that can easily be explained...

" 'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!' " - John 8:58

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." - John 1

John says all things were made through Jesus and that the Word came down into his creation. But his creation did not recognise him (in fact it rejected him!). God isn't one who guesses what will happen in the future because he's outside of time, much like someone in a helicopter above a carnival parade can see the beginning, middle and front of the parade, whereas to someone standing in the middle of it, the front of the parade is the past, the middle the present and the end is the future.

Spiritual traditions (to those who believe in a spiritual reality beneath things), develop when spiritually aware/sensitive/awake people grasp some aspect they see in the spirit and translate it into symbols, words and systems, etc. Some of these may be accurate, some may not but if Jesus was indeed the word of God, the logos incarnate, as Christians believe, then why should it be a surprise that echoes of him and his incarnation into flesh appear all over the place, before his very birth?

Only a limited temporal outlook would discount the possibility that, in the most important aspects, these similarities that exist in other dimensions, i.e. with Jesus, can be found in so-called "Christs" prior to Jesus incarnating on earth, and are reflections of Jesus and not vice versa, whenever they happened.

[tjohn]

It's true the 'illuminati' are behind the world's religions but the beliefs of these people are totally opposite to teachings of the Bible. So what are you saying? That they can’t believe one thing and promote another and lie?

I think they know the truth about our true beginnings but they promoted religious doctrines (which is what religion is) to hide what they know from the public.

The truth about religion is coming out now but the illuminati don’t really care about that now as they want to destroy the religions (religious doctrines) that they promoted in the past. Throughout the centuries the deception of religion served a purpose for the ‘elite’ but now they have changed tact.

They worship the Serpent, I don’t know if they literally worship a Serpent or not but they likely venerate their DNA because they think they are superior. Make sense?

so there's no way I can agree with you that the same sort of people who have translated some translations of the Bible are the same sort of people that wrote the Bible.So you admit that they are behind religion then how do you know it’s only with some translations? I was also talking about the same “sort” of people that go back thousands of years.

Once again, God is not a religion! I agree!

Christ did not want to start a religion, he wanted people to discover who they are and attain a higher consciousness. Yes that would seem to be the case except it apparently wasn’t “the Christ.”

Let’s make something clear, the books and stories of the NT were chosen and then doctored so that the story of someone we call Jesus fits in with what Constantine wanted to unite his empire. This accounts for the many similarities between Christianity and ‘pagan’ religions and not just the stuff about Xmas (which isn’t in the Bible) but also within the Bible itself and the stories about ‘Jesus.’

There were many writings at that time about someone who had a higher consciousness, performed miracles and so on. We know what Chinese whispers can do and many people in those days couldn’t read or write and were not scribes, so some of the stories said that the man we call Jesus did not ascend to heaven but some of them said he did. Some of them presented ‘Jesus’ in an entirely different light to the religious idea that he was the Messiah. Well, we know how stories can get exaggerated especially through word of mouth (then consequently in writing), so which of these stories would have been closer to the truth, do you think? Do you think?

I'm sorry you find it all so complicated that you can't make head nor tails of it, but you should speak for yourself because I certainly have found no conflicting doctrines and I don't have difficulty understanding the messages of Christ and the prophets. The doctrines are religion and there’s little doubt that some of the doctrines you believe do contradict logic and each other - although you might not think so at present.

I agree religions have done terrible things! To begin with, the religious leaders of Christ's day conspired to have him killed, and the record of organised religions speaks for itself in respect to the blood they have spilt in their quest for domination and worldly pursuits... quite the opposite of what Christ's teachings, especially when he said his kingdom was no part of this world. That’s what we get when people are using doublethink and religion promotes doublethink because in order to understand the doctrines of religion we often have to use doublethink.

The Bible is not a perversion of earlier texts Yes it is! Did you see the video? www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngJ-H7fjsAk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngJ-H7fjsAk) I have seen some of the Sumerian texts myself which describe the flood, how we were made in someone’s ‘image’ and so on. Look at it again and especially take note towards the end. How can anyone deny these similarities?

and the Kabbalah is a perversion of the Bible because it teaches the opposite to what the prophets and Christ taught. At the root of the Kabbalah is the reptilian Serpent who is the mastermind of civilisation and the root of the Kabbalah. 1) As far as I know, Kabbalah is not about the NT or ‘the Christ’ and seeing as the story about ‘the Christ’ has been fabricated, it wouldn’t apply anyway. 2) The Serpent of Genesis (in my opinion) represented our DNA which gave us the ability to have a will of our own; hence the forbidden fruit of “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”. They created us to be their slaves - it was, don’t think for yourself, just do what you are told.

Here I have to agree with you because the religions of the world were created by those that venerate the Kabbalah. We have it from the horses mouth, so to speak that they do because one of Freemasonry's most highly honoured adepts wrote:

"All the truly dogmatic religions have issued from the Kabbalah and return to it: everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of the Illuminati, Jacob Boehme, Swedenborg, Saint-Martin and others, is borrowed from Kabbalah, all the Masonic associations owe to it their secrets and their symbols." (Sovereign Grand Commander of Freemasonry, Albert Pike 33, "Morals and Dogma", p.744)

So there you have it! So-called Christian religions are not based on the Bible, but rather the Kabbalah! This is why so much of Revelation describes Christendom as Babylon the Great, the Harlot who fornicated with the political rulers of the earth.Revelation is (obviously) a symbolic book. Babylon the Great in Revelation represents the ‘City’ of confusion because it was at Bable that ‘God’ confused languages. So today we have a confusion of many religious ‘languages’ in the many doctrines that contradict and conflict with each other.

Babylon the Great is not only ‘Christendom’ (which is the word that JWs often use) but involves all religions.
Compare Rev18:24 with Matt 23:35

Kabbalah is a more esoteric version of Judaism and it contains some truth and some untruth as all religions do. Then of course Christianity is related to Judaism and is based on the OT as well as the NT.

It's true there are significant figures in pre-Christ history who appear to have had a similar life structure to that of Christ but not one of these pre-Christ stories describes and of these figures as having sacrificed their lives for humanity. Not one of them!

In this regard, Jesus Christ's self sacrifice for humanity is totally unique and I challenge you to find a single account that contradicts what I've just written. Well, here’s one for a start!
http://ftp4.dns-systems.net/%7Etruth009/Bacchus.gifhttp://ftp4.dns-systems.net/~truth009/Bacchus.gif (http://ftp4.dns-systems.net/%7Etruth009/Bacchus.gif)

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-Death-Rebirth_Deity

Also:
http://englishatheist.org/indexz31.shtml (I am not an atheist BTW)
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html

There were many sites like the above but I can't find them now!
Ah! Here's one:
http://www.awitness.org/essays/bkup/16_crucified_saviors/chap33.html
http://www.awitness.org/essays/bkup/16_crucified_saviors/index.html


This still leaves the question how can it be that there can be similar accounts that mirror other aspects of the Christ story but that can easily be explained... You could be getting there.

" 'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!' " - John 8:58

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." - John 1

John says all things were made through Jesus and that the Word came down into his creation. Sorry but you keep repeating ideas and doctrines which are religion. Or do you think that religion is only about going to church? No, of course you don’t but it’s the teachings and doctrines which define what a religion is.

John 1 doesn’t say that all things came through Jesus although some have interpreted it to be so. The word translated as “Word” is Logos and the Logos means the expression of the Mind. Everything in universe is made of information (as scientists now begin to acknowledge) and this implies a Cosmic Mind (what some including myself, would say is God). We are all expressions of the Cosmic Mind and John 1 was talking about one particular expression (person) who “became flesh”

- that does not imply that the person who was an expression of the Mind was literally the Creator, or as the JW's would say the co-creator. However, that person and all of us have the essence of the Creator in us and that person (if he actually existed) more than most, it would seem.

This is how it goes: Words are the expressions of thought and thoughts are of the mind. Your words (to an extent) represent your mind, which represents you. Let’s try an experiment:

In the beginning was the expression of titurel, and expressions of titurel was with titurel, and expressions of titurel was titurel. The expressions of titurel was with titurel in the beginning.

Ok it sounds Greek but (taking account that the original was translated from the Greek) it makes sense.

But his creation did not recognise him (in fact it rejected him!). Who’s creation?

[equitibile]

I´m suprised there are still people who believe that the Christ story is merely one version of a recurring myth. That is an invention of the mystery schools, a complete falsehood. Notice how the wiki article linked on this notion includes no primary sources. That is the norm for this poppycock.

[1694]

I´m suprised there are still people who believe that the Christ story is merely one version of a recurring myth. That is an invention of the mystery schools, a complete falsehood. Notice how the wiki article linked on this notion includes no primary sources. That is the norm for this poppycock.

And the bible does?

[titurel]

I´m suprised there are still people who believe that the Christ story is merely one version of a recurring myth. That is an invention of the mystery schools, a complete falsehood. Notice how the wiki article linked on this notion includes no primary sources. That is the norm for this poppycock.
There's more non-biblical evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ than there is for Plato.

[titurel]

So what are you saying? That they can’t believe one thing and promote another and lie?

I think they know the truth about our true beginnings but they promoted religious doctrines (which is what religion is) to hide what they know from the public.

The truth about religion is coming out now but the illuminati don’t really care about that now as they want to destroy the religions (religious doctrines) that they promoted in the past. Throughout the centuries the deception of religion served a purpose for the ‘elite’ but now they have changed tact.
Of course those wolves behind religion preach one thing and practise another, and the secretive religion they practice revolves around the worship of fallen divine beings.

I don’t know if they literally worship a Serpent or not but they likely venerate their DNA because they think they are superior. Make sense?
Yes, they think they're superior and belong to the master race, but they're enamoured of these fallen beings that have set themselves up as gods. The NWO is also about setting up the conditions in the world for the return of the demons that were incarcerated before the Flood.

So you admit that they are behind religion then how do you know it’s only with some translations? I was also talking about the same “sort” of people that go back thousands of years.
I don't buy the mistaken idea that those behind religions are similar to the prophets and Christ - they worship the opposite to what Christ and prophets taught and prophesied about!

Yes that would seem to be the case except it apparently wasn’t “the Christ.”

Let’s make something clear, the books and stories of the NT were chosen and then doctored so that the story of someone we call Jesus fits in with what Constantine wanted to unite his empire. This accounts for the many similarities between Christianity and ‘pagan’ religions and not just the stuff about Xmas (which isn’t in the Bible) but also within the Bible itself and the stories about ‘Jesus.’
Let's get this clear, there is plenty of non-biblical evidence that a man known as Jesus Christ existed. We can have that debate if you like, but it's certainly not the case that Christ was invented by Constantine, and there reasons why there are so many similarities between the teachings of the Bible and Paganism is because both are from the same Divine source except that Paganism is derived from fallen Divine beings, and that's why so many are fooled and led astray!

There were many writings at that time about someone who had a higher consciousness, performed miracles and so on. We know what Chinese whispers can do and many people in those days couldn’t read or write and were not scribes, so some of the stories said that the man we call Jesus did not ascend to heaven but some of them said he did. Some of them presented ‘Jesus’ in an entirely different light to the religious idea that he was the Messiah. Well, we know how stories can get exaggerated especially through word of mouth (then consequently in writing), so which of these stories would have been closer to the truth, do you think? Do you think?
I'm not aware of any writings, from 2000 years ago that claim someone other than Christ had higher consciousness on the scale that Christ demonstrated, so on that, unless you can produce some evidence of these non-Christ writings that attest to what you say, I have to disagree with you.

The doctrines are religion and there’s little doubt that some of the doctrines you believe do contradict logic and each other - although you might not think so at present.
There are no doctrines I respect that contradict each other, so you're going to have to back up your claims because so far your evidence is noticeable by its absence. In respect to religion, you could rightly argue, according the OED that football is a religion, but I follow no religion - I'm not religious in the sense of taking part in rituals, ceremony, repeating or chanting phrases and mantras, centered around a building or church, idol, or holy place, etc.

That’s what we get when people are using doublethink and religion promotes doublethink because in order to understand the doctrines of religion we often have to use doublethink.
Please get it into your head I don't follow any religion.

Yes it is! Did you see the video? www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngJ-H7fjsAk I have seen some of the Sumerian texts myself which describe the flood, how we were made in someone’s ‘image’ and so on. Look at it again and especially take note towards the end. How can anyone deny these similarities?
I've already explained how these similarities arose in the other thread, but to repeat what I wrote there here, all these earlier texts were inspired by fallen divine beings who were in possession of God's divine ordinances, so it's hardly surprising we find these demonic beings furthering their agenda against God by putting their own spin on these divine truths and mimicking them, even before they were properly laid out by God!

1) As far as I know, Kabbalah is not about the NT or ‘the Christ’ and seeing as the story about ‘the Christ’ has been fabricated, it wouldn’t apply anyway.
A large part of the Kabbalah is based, not only on the OT but also the NT. There are many disciplines within the Kabbalah that depend on those texts, which is why you have those that call themselves Christians and Jews that follow the Kabbalah, and the story of Jesus Christ was not fabricated, IMO.

2) The Serpent of Genesis (in my opinion) represented our DNA which gave us the ability to have a will of our own; hence the forbidden fruit of “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”. They created us to be their slaves - it was, don’t think for yourself, just do what you are told.
You're basing your ideas on authors such as Zechariah Sitchin, whose work has been shown to be deeply flawed, but hey, if you want to believe humanity were created to be slaves that's your choice!

Revelation is (obviously) a symbolic book. Babylon the Great in Revelation represents the ‘City’ of confusion because it was at Bable that ‘God’ confused languages. So today we have a confusion of many religious ‘languages’ in the many doctrines that contradict and conflict with each other.
Of course Revelation is largely a symbolic book, but Babylon the Great is primarily described as a religious entity who has a kingdom over the rulers of the world. Since 1763, the august Almanach de Gotha has been the ultimate authority on the royal houses of Europe. Listed under 'Reigning Sovereign Houses' is the Holy See. Therein is stated:

"The incumbent of the Holy See is considered by Christian sovereign families as the 'Father of the Family of Kings', [and] his Holiness represents the OLDEST MONARCHY on earth."

The triple sovereignty of the Pope, Holy See and Vatican City, is distinct in fact and in law. Internationally, the Pope is not subject to any authority on earth. His Cardinals are considered to be Princes of the Church and peers of the sons of reigning monarchs. Each diocese is considered to be a royal fiefdom. The word 'diocese' originally signified an administrative unit devised by the Emperor Diocletian, a tyrant noted for his persecution of Christians.

Babylon the Great is not only ‘Christendom’ (which is the word that JWs often use) but involves all religions.

Compare Rev18:24 with Matt 23:35

Kabbalah is a more esoteric version of Judaism and it contains some truth and some untruth as all religions do. Then of course Christianity is related to Judaism and is based on the OT as well as the NT.
Yes, I would agree that Babylon the Great includes all the world's principle religions because they all originated from Babylon and the Kabbalah.


Well, here’s one for a start!

http://ftp4.dns-systems.net/%7Etruth009/Bacchus.gifhttp://ftp4.dns-systems.net/~truth009/Bacchus.gif

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-Death-Rebirth_Deity

Also:

http://englishatheist.org/indexz31.shtml (I am not an atheist BTW)

http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html

There were many sites like the above but I can't find them now!

Ah! Here's one:

http://www.awitness.org/essays/bkup/16_crucified_saviors/chap33.html

http://www.awitness.org/essays/bkup/16_crucified_saviors/index.html
Please examine those links you supplied more carefully because not one of these counterfeit "Christs" sacrificed their lives for the sins of humanity: Bacchus, Krishna, Zarathustra, Mithras, Osiris, Adonis, Tammuz, Zalmoxis, phoenix, Baldr, Odin, &etc., &etc.

Sorry but you keep repeating ideas and doctrines which are religion. Or do you think that religion is only about going to church? No, of course you don’t but it’s the teachings and doctrines which define what a religion is.
If you want to define religion in that context, then the beliefs you've expressed are also doctrines that amass into a religion in the context that you're using the word. That old saying about stones and glass houses springs to mind!

John 1 doesn’t say that all things came through Jesus although some have interpreted it to be so. The word translated as “Word” is Logos and the Logos means the expression of the Mind. Everything in universe is made of information (as scientists now begin to acknowledge) and this implies a Cosmic Mind (what some including myself, would say is God). We are all expressions of the Cosmic Mind and John 1 was talking about one particular expression (person) who “became flesh”
I disagree with you because Christ is the Logos who also became flesh.

[tjohn]

There's more non-biblical evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ than there is for Plato.

Show us.

[tjohn]

I´m suprised there are still people who believe that the Christ story is merely one version of a recurring myth. That is an invention of the mystery schools, a complete falsehood. Notice how the wiki article linked on this notion includes no primary sources. That is the norm for this poppycock.
This article does not cite any references or sources http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-Death-Rebirth_Deity
That's typical of Wikipeda! Although it doesn't copy and paste from them directly, the article does provided references and cite sources!

[tjohn]

[quote=tjohn]
John 1 doesn’t say that all things came through Jesus although some have interpreted it to be so. The word translated as “Word” is Logos and the Logos means the expression of the Mind. Everything in universe is made of information (as scientists now begin to acknowledge) and this implies a Cosmic Mind (what some including myself, would say is God). We are all expressions of the Cosmic Mind and John 1 was talking about one particular expression (person) who “became flesh” I disagree with you because Christ is the Logos who also became flesh.
Anyone else notice something wrong here??

[tjohn]

Please get it into your head I don't follow any religion.
Please get it into your head that I do not follow any religion. Who has all the doctrine and the stuff about Christ and so on? You do!

I've already explained how these similarities arose in the other thread, but to repeat what I wrote there here, all these earlier texts were inspired by fallen divine beings who were in possession of God's divine ordinances, so it's hardly surprising we find these demonic beings furthering their agenda against God by putting their own spin on these divine truths and mimicking them, even before they were properly laid out by God! So the demons arranged for Abram to come from Sumer? Demons arranged for two Floods (along with an ark and everything), one in the Bible and one in the earlier sumerian texts?? Talk about denial...


A large part of the Kabbalah is based, not only on the OT but also the NT. There are many disciplines within the Kabbalah that depend on those texts, which is why you have those that call themselves Christians and Jews that follow the Kabbalah, and the story of Jesus Christ was not fabricated, IMO. So you are saying that Kabbalah is evil because it distorts the bible and Kabbalah speaks about Jesus and then Jesus must be real.

You're basing your ideas on authors such as Zechariah Sitchin, whose work has been shown to be deeply flawed, but hey, if you want to believe humanity were created to be slaves that's your choice! Not entirely. I think he is wrong about several things. With myself I was coming to conclusions from the Bible that it's mostly about ETs a long time before I had got on the internet and a long time before I had read any books about ancient astronauts other than the Bible.

Of course Revelation is largely a symbolic book, but Babylon the Great is primarily described as a religious entity who has a kingdom over the rulers of the world. Since 1763, the august Almanach de Gotha has been the ultimate authority on the royal houses of Europe. Listed under 'Reigning Sovereign Houses' is the Holy See. Therein is stated:

"The incumbent of the Holy See is considered by Christian sovereign families as the 'Father of the Family of Kings', [and] his Holiness represents the OLDEST MONARCHY on earth."

The triple sovereignty of the Pope, Holy See and Vatican City, is distinct in fact and in law. Internationally, the Pope is not subject to any authority on earth. His Cardinals are considered to be Princes of the Church and peers of the sons of reigning monarchs. Each diocese is considered to be a royal fiefdom. The word 'diocese' originally signified an administrative unit devised by the Emperor Diocletian, a tyrant noted for his persecution of Christians. What was that all about? I don't what you are trying to say in answer to what I was saying.

Yes, I would agree that Babylon the Great includes all the world's principle religions because they all originated from Babylon and the Kabbalah. But of course you don't follow any religion but you believe the stories and doctrines of Christanity...


Please examine those links you supplied more carefully because not one of these counterfeit "Christs" sacrificed their lives for the sins of humanity: Bacchus, Krishna, Zarathustra, Mithras, Osiris, Adonis, Tammuz, Zalmoxis, phoenix, Baldr, Odin, &etc., &etc. It is religious doctrine (i.e. religion) which you believe that says Christ exchanged his life for us and there's no doubt that those previous guys were deified for similar reasons - whether or not they were real and so the myth goes on.

If you want to define religion in that context, then the beliefs you've expressed are also doctrines that amass into a religion in the context that you're using the word. That old saying about stones and glass houses springs to mind! I was quoting the 'word' to disprove religion and it's not me who is plugging all the religious doctrine.

I disagree with you because Christ is the Logos who also became flesh. Amazing isn't it, how someone can read something and then say something similar to 'disprove' it!

[equitibile]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-Death-Rebirth_Deity
That's typical of Wikipeda! Although it doesn't copy and paste from them directly, the article does provided references and cite sources!

Of course it cites secondary sources. There are plenty of people, mostly initiates of the mysteries, who have written of this. However, if you look at primary sources about what was actually believed by the ancient peoples in their time none of it corresponds.

[tjohn]

Of course it cites secondary sources. There are plenty of people, mostly initiates of the mysteries, who have written of this. However, if you look at primary sources about what was actually believed by the ancient peoples in their time none of it corresponds. And where does anyone get Primary sources about ancient people from? The Bible?

[tjohn]

Short clip from The Lost Gospels
http://ftp4.dns-systems.net/~truth009/LG.mpg (http://ftp4.dns-systems.net/%7Etruth009/LG.mpg)

[1977]

I am not sure if it is the case you are trying to make, but it is completely ludicrous that some Christian apologists go so far as to proclaim that there are no death and rebirth deities before Christ when their own Bible directly contradicts them:

Ezekiel 8

14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. 15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.

The concept of Christ dying for the sins of humanity comes most immediately from the Jewish custom of sacrificing a spotless lamb to atone for the sins of the community; the early Christian writers make no secret of this, of course.

[titurel]

Show us.
This following page has plenty of exmples of non-biblical texts that support the historical Christ. Hope you've got a good internet connection because it's quite long:

http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_history.html

[titurel]

I am not sure if it is the case you are trying to make, but it is completely ludicrous that some Christian apologists go so far as to proclaim that there are no death and rebirth deities before Christ when their own Bible directly contradicts them:

Ezekiel 8

14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz. 15 Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.

The concept of Christ dying for the sins of humanity comes most immediately from the Jewish custom of sacrificing a spotless lamb to atone for the sins of the community; the early Christian writers make no secret of this, of course.
The lamb signified Christ and the sacrifice that he would make, so I see no problem with the latter part of your post. In respect to Tammuz, I've already stated and elaborated upon this in my lengthy post above. I'm not denying there are countless figures predating Christ, such as Tammuz that bear a resemblance to the life of Christ, but none of them sacrifices their lives for the sins of humanity. John said that there were, but he still hasn't supported his claim with any evidence. I'm still waiting for that.

[oiram]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/The%20King%20James%20Bible/kjb_chart-large.gif (http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/)

The Flow chart of Illuminati Origins
http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr40/413200/illuminati.gif (http://mindcontrol101.blogspot.com/2007_11_01_archive.html)

[titurel]

Christ was against organised religions and he never intended to start one and neither do I agree the Bible sprung out of Paganism because the Bible is incompatible with Pagan customs and traditions and such things as the Kabbalah which is at the root of it all, and the method through which the Brotherhood exercises much control over the structures of civilisation. The Bible exposes the reptilian agenda to a far greater extent than any other book, which is further evidence that Christ and prophets never had anything in common with Pagans. The Bible foretells the downfall of Pagan religion, also known as Babylon the Great and the defeat of the Reptilian control agenda out of which the all the 'illuminati's' religions and Brotherhoods sprung. The Zeitgeist Addendum film is also very dubious, especially the later part of the film.

[titurel]

The author David Livingstone in his book, "Terrorism and the Illuminati", shines light on the conspiracy. Livingstone, throughout his book, highlights how it's the Kabbalah that's at the root of the conspiracy and the Kabbalah orientated cabal. Here's an extract:

"It was in the dissemination of the original Mysteries of Mithras, that we find the first coalescence of those families which would ultimately produce the leading Illuminati bloodlines. This network was centered around the House of Herod, and included an important Armenian bloodline. The importance of this Armenian bloodline figures both in their supposed descent from the Lost Tribe, and their mixed Alexandrian and Persian heritage, a hereditary Syrian priesthood of Baal, and the family of Julius Caesar. It was the coalescence of these families, at the turn of the first Millennium BC, that effectively incepted the conspiracy. And, while the trail of these familial relationships is complicated and detailed, it is essential to examine them, in order to properly understand the origin, direction and beliefs of their successors, the Illuminati.

Essentially, these families were responsible for the formation and spread of the Mithraism, the most popular cult of the Roman Empire. It was this cult that remained the core doctrine of the Illuminati for centuries to come. Initially, the formation of Mithraism served a conspiracy to supplant the Christian Church. It was ultimately successful, when one of their descendants, Constantine the Great, implemented Catholicism, which was but an assimilation of Mithraism, associating Jesus with the cult of the dying-god. The cult eventually penetrated to the Islamic world to produce the heresy of the Ismailis, from which emerged the first terrorist network, the Assassins. It was the legend of contact with the Assassins with the notorious Knights Templars, during the Crusades, which became the basis of Scottish Rite Freemasonry." (David Livingstone, "Terrorism and the Illuminati", p.25)

[titurel]

The old Roman Empire is still alive and kicking in the form of Washington D.C. and the Vatican in Rome. The "ancient hope" that George Bush Junior spoke about, in his inaugural speech, has been passed down through one civilisation after another because the same elite groups, and illuminati bloodlines, have been guiding civilisation from the dawn of civilisation to the present day.

"These Cabalists believe Lucifer is the true God. They care nothing for their own nations. Their whole aim in life is to humiliate and degrade mankind, and prove to God that the human experiment is a failure. They are gradually achieving this goal through their covert control of the economy, education, media and government.

The great secret of history is this story of the ascent of Cabalists to world power... Ordinary Jews and people in general have no idea how they are being manipulated...

The Cabala states that God created man to know Himself... Cabalists take this to mean they can usurp the role of God. They don't have to meet an absolute moral standard first...

The myth of Western Civilization is that it tries to portray progress in terms of the rejection of religion and the adoption of the secular, which is really a mask for the occult, i.e., the cabala and godlessness."

(David Livingstone, "Terrorism and and the Illuminati")

[1977]

[img-kjb_chart-large.gif]
Definitive proof that KJV-onlyists are the craziest people on earth.

[1977]

The author David Livingstone in his book, "Terrorism and the Illuminati", shines light on the conspiracy. Livingstone, throughout his book, highlights how it's the Kabbalah that's at the root of the conspiracy and the Kabbalah orientated cabal. Here's an extract:
David Livingstone seems to have a lot of Islamic presumptions that show up in his writings. Weren't you just saying that Christ gave his life for humanity? Because he claims that Paul just made it up. :confused:

[titurel]

David Livingstone seems to have a lot of Islamic presumptions that show up in his writings. Weren't you just saying that Christ gave his life for humanity? Because he claims that Paul just made it up.
The author David Livingstone does not claim Paul made it up.

"The myth of Western Civilization is that it tries to portray progress in terms of the rejection of religion and the adoption of the secular, which is really a mask for the occult, i.e., the cabala and godlessness."

(David Livingstone, "Terrorism and and the Illuminati")

[titurel]

Definitive proof that KJV-onlyists are the craziest people on earth.
I've never come across a "KJV-onlynist"! The Brotherhood hate the Bible and the best way for them to undermine it is for them to make themselves out to be protectors of the Bible, whilst in their secretive rituals, they venerate the Serpent Brotherhood opposed to God's plans for humanity.

[equitibile]

And where does anyone get Primary sources about ancient people from? The Bible?

It´s called archaeology, you blubbering bafoon.