Zeitgeist 2-Theosophy, Socialism, and The new NWO

[nowheretorun]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoKTmtoJQWA

Timing is everything.
On September 29, the United States stock market crashed (http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/29/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm), falling 777 points. Just in time for the fallout, a worldwide financial collapse, the movie Zeitgeist Addendum was released. The film, right on cue, explains the obvious, how a flawed financial system failed, and how it exploited the hard work, savings and investments of all of those that lost their money to this system. It simultaneously heaps blame on free markets and religion, while calling for a global shift in consciousness.

This new paradigm is of course an old paradigm. It’s an open call for socialism. One need look no further than Karl Marx to see the parallels between Zeitgeist Addendum’s linking a distaste for free markets (http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Marxists) and religion (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/df-jahrbucher/law-abs.htm). This should set off some rather loud alarm bells in the minds of patriotic and freedom loving Americans.

Most of those that have been actively observing the global elite have likewise understand that a pre-planned financial crash has been in the works for some time. Nickolas Sarozky president of the EU says he wants a new global economic system (http://www.bloomsberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=aIcEL0jjSK74&refer=home) to rise out of the ashes of this crash which, in his own words is expressed as a "new world.” order.

Zeitgeist Addendum seems to further the cause for this New World Order, neo-socialist paradigm. With America politicians and representatives ignoring the masses and passing off the debt of banks on to the general public, one can see the seeds of new world socialism emerging right here in America. (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laland/2008/07/gop-sen-on-mort.html) It’s no coincidence that just as the New World Order beings implementing marxist thought in so called free countries, Zeitgeist Addendum shows up to incite the masses in a global call for marxism.

If one should prefer to save 2 hours and skip watching Zeitgeist Addendum, its proposals are clearly spelled out in a relatively unknown book entitled “The Externalization of the Hierarchy (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/externalisation/contents.html)” written by Alice Bailey. Actually Bailey claimed to have channeled an “Ascended Master” known as “the Tibetan” or Djwhal Khul who penned the book through her.

Bailey was also the founder of the theosophical Lucifer Trust (http://www.lucistrust.org/en/arcane_school/talks_and_articles/the_esoteric_meaning_of_lucifer) (later changed to Lucis Trust (http://www.lucistrust.org/en)). Please note, that the solution to the faltering global economy offered by Zeitgeist Addendum is "The Venus Project." Venus, also known as the morning star is synonymous with the term Lucifer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer).

Some of the highlights from Bailey’s The Externalization of the Heirarchy include the following:



"The problem of money will have to be faced; the problem of the distribution of wealth - whether natural or human - will need careful handling and a compromise reached between those nations which possess unlimited resources and those who have few or none; the problem of the varying forms of national government must be faced with courage and insight; the restoration - psychological, spiritual and physical - of mankind must constitute a primary responsibility. The sense of security must be put on a firm basis - the basis of right relationship, and not the basis of force. Men must feel secure because they are seeking to develop international goodwill and can trust each other, and are not therefore dependent upon the strength of their armies and fleets."


For those that have seen Zeitgeist Addendum, this should sound familiar, as it is the basis for the
entire film.

Bailey’s EOTH also includes specifics as to the nature of the New World Order and the following are just some of the links between Bailey’s work (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/externalisation/exte1082.html) and Zeitgeist Addendum:



“The new world order will recognize that the produce of the world, the natural resources of the planet and its riches, belong to no one nation but should be shared by all. There will be no nations under the category "haves" and others under the opposite category. A fair and properly organized distribution of the wheat, the oil and the mineral wealth of the world will be developed, based upon the needs of each nation, upon its own internal resources and the requirements of its people. All this will be worked out in relation to the whole.”

“The new world order will be founded on the recognition that all men are equal in origin and goal but that all are at differing stages of evolutionary development; that personal integrity, intelligence, vision and experience, plus a marked goodwill, should indicate leadership. The domination of the proletariat over the aristocracy and bourgeoisie, as in Russia, or the domination of an entrenched aristocracy over the proletariat and middle classes, as has been until lately the case in Great Britain, must disappear. The control of labor by capital or the control of capital by labor must also go.”

“In the new world order, the governing body in any nation should be composed of those who work for the greatest good of the greatest number and who at the same time offer opportunity to all, seeing to it that the individual is left free. Today the men of vision are achieving recognition, thus making possible a right choice of leaders. It was not possible until this century.”

“The new world order will be founded on an active sense of responsibility. The rule will be "all for one and one for all." This attitude among nations will have to be developed. It is not yet present.”


“In the preparatory period for the new world order there will be a steady and regulated disarmament. It will not be optional. No nation will be permitted to produce and organize any equipment for destructive purposes or to infringe the security of any other nation. One of the first tasks of any future peace conference will be to regulate this matter and gradually see to the disarming of the nations.”

“These are the simple and general premises upon which the new world order must begin its work. These preliminary stages must be kept fluid and experimental; the vision of possibility must never be lost, and the foundations must be preserved inviolate, but the intermediate processes and the experimentations must be carried forward by men who, having the best interests of the whole at heart, can change the detail of organization whilst preserving the life of the organism.”


One should first take into consideration the many similarities between Bailey and the marxist propaganda espoused in Zeitgeist Addendum. It is then a much simpler task to view the film’s open call for global socialism as one and the same as the New World Theosophical religious and social order being so aptly adhered to by the high level occultists that are, in fact the global elite.
In doing so, the following information should come as no shock and simply, further proof of collusion between two seemingly opposite groups. As you can see, they are no more opposite than Republican and Democrat. Outwardly so yes, but certainly behind the scenes both are controlled by the same invisible hand.

The Venus Project (http://www.thevenusproject.com/intro_main/whatis_tvp.htm) which has already in name been linked to Lucifer, is obviously a socialist movement. Founded by Jacque Fresco, upon first glance it may appear similar to one of the multitude of ill fated hippy communes of the 1960’s. But upon further study, it too is rooted in the same NWO/Occult/Theosophical belief structure.

One of the basic premises of The Venus Project is that we work towards having all of the Earth's resources as the common heritage of all the world's people. Anything less will simply result in a continuation of the same catalog of problems inherent in the present system.”

This is exactly what Bailey wrote of in The Externalization of the Hierarchy. The links between The Venus Project and the essence of Secret Societies does however run even deeper than the call for a communistic sharing of world resources.

33rd degree masonic author Manley P Hall said of America’s link to the new Atlantis, “The New Atlantis sets forth an ideal government of the earth. It foretells that day when in the midst of men there shall rise up (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation%252013&version=9;) a vast institution composed of the philosophic elect -- an order of illumined men banded together for the purpose of investigating the laws of life and the mysteries of the universe … The age of boundaries is closing, and we are approaching a nobler era when nations shall be no more; when the lines of race and caste shall be wiped out; when the whole earth shall be under one order, one government, one administrative body." -Manly P Hall "Lectures on
Ancient Philosophy," published by the Philosophical Research Society Inc, Los Angeles (1970)”

Hall, along side of Rosicrucians like Francis Bacon (http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/bacon/atlantis.html), clearly defined the New World Order’s drive to recreate Atlantis, and this theme clearly “resurfaces” in Fresco’s “architecture”, specifically in his “Circular City (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Image:Fresco-circular-city.jpg)”. (pictured on the right)
http://atsmedia.cachefly.net/uploads/ats60006_atlantis1.jpg

The Circular City image (above) is one that is notably comparable to artistic visions of Atlantis based upon Plato’s description of the sunken city (below).

http://atsmedia.cachefly.net/uploads/ats60007_atlantis2.jpg

Another warning sign of Fresco’s New World Order mentality is
his desire to see technology steering mankind’s destiny. Many
patriots shiver at the idea of biometric identification, specifically
the idea of implantable microchips that could be used to track and
control humans in ways up until recently only envisioned in the
Bible (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%252013:15-17;&version=9;). Fresco’s vision for the future of humanity goes well beyond
that of a simple microchip implant. He foresees humanity needing
to merge with machine or else risk de-evolution.



“When biological technology becomes further advanced, human beings as we know them, will become a modified species. If we as human beings fail to include the possibility of this development in our overall, social evolution we will witness the decline of our species” -Jacque Fresco The Best that Money Can’t buy, Beyond Politics, Poverty, & War.


These are not mere coincidences. While seemingly “revolutionary” in thought, Fresco and his school of thought as espoused by the Zeitgeist vision of rebellion against the system are part and parcel of the same social upheaval being called for, not by humanitarians, but by those that have
been planning for the New World Order from it’s earliest stages.

It should also be noted that Zeitgeist Addendum begins and ends with speaking from Krisnamurti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti) who was raised from boyhood by the Theosophical Society (http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/theos/ts-seal.htm) to be a "world teacher (http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/thopv/index.html)". Even though he broke from the group after declining to be the messiah he maintained a friendly relationship by most accounts.

This is not unlike others within the “Truth Movement” such as Michael Tsarion, who openly admits he was, from an early age taught by theosophist if not raised by them. his connections to the group (****************************/phpbb3_aux/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=998&st=0&sk=t&sd=a) are quite interesting.

This peculiar affinity with the occult is nothing out of the ordinary with Zeitgeist. Part 1 of the initial Zeitgeist film was based on the work of a man that loved theosophy so much he apprently named himself Jordan Maxwell after Helena Blavatsky's (http://blavatskyarchives.com/luciferreprints.htm) "Jordanus Maximus (http://www.blavatsky.net/magazine/theosophy/ww/additional/ListOfCollatedArticles/TheNazareneSystem.html)". (see also Debunking Jordan Maxwell (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3119679914965262207&ei=fwbzSJKhHZHuqAKsrJHsDg&q=debunking+jordan))


Before discounting the political power of Theosophy and its desire to infiltrate the truth seekers you need to understand its concept of seed groups. These groups were sent forth to work in stealth so as to be nurtured without competition from those that would see them for what they truly are. When one wonders how or why anyone offering truth about the occult could in fact be
part of the New World Order, they need look no further than Alice Bailey.

One of the most specific goals of the theosophist, as dictated in The Externalization of the Hierarchy is the following:



“The education of the advanced thinkers, of the aspirants and world disciples in applied knowledge, expressed wisdom and occult understanding. This group synthesizes all that is available in the other two groups and thus forms the nucleus of the Kingdom of God, of the fifth kingdom which is so rapidly coming into being.”


According to the Theosophy, starting with it’s founder Blavatsky, god is really Lucifer. This is luciferian theology, not Christian doctrine.



“The devil is now called Darkness by the Church, whereas, in the Bible he is called the "Son of God", the bright star of the early morning, Lucifer. There is a whole philosophy of dogmatic craft in the reason why the first Archangel, who sprang from the depths of Chaos, was called Lux (Lucifer), the "Luminous Son of the Morning," or man- vantaric Dawn. He was transformed by the Church into Lucifer or Satan, because he is higher and older than Jehovah, and had to be sacrificed to the new dogma. -Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine (http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd1-1-04.htm)


Zeitgeist Addendum held over one central theme from its predecessor, that Jesus was and is just another name for all of the other gods of antiquity. Unfortunately in Zeitgeist’s extensive reference material webpage and/or reference book there is nothing that specifically backs up any of these claims (http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/Home.html).
If you can prove the claims in Part 1 of
Zeitgeist, by all means follow the links and win yourself some money.
http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/Challenge.html
http://zeitgeistchallenge.com/

There is actually a good reason why theosophy wants to particularly discredit this on particular religion this youtube video by a non-christian sums it up nicely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPXc1QcmYDY

It should be noted that any critical thinker can’t help but to agree with many of the practical points and issues raised in the Zeitgeist Addendum. It is however, so very important to be cautious about who we as truth seekers run to while trying to seek understanding in these confusing times.

The key to understanding why the New World Order has chosen to expose itself lies in Bailey’s Externalization of the Heirarchy.

“The new world order must be appropriate to a world which has passed through a destructive crisis and to a humanity which is badly shattered by the experience. The new world order must lay the foundation for a future world order which will be possible only after a time of recovery, of reconstruction, and of rebuilding.”

You know about Bohemian Grove. You know the signs and symbols that prove the elitists working towards a New World Order are part of a luciferian death cult. Now you need to ask yourself why those working to expose the New World Order are also linked to the same luciferian and occult beliefs.

The New World Order seems to have emerged to play the scapegoat for the order that will follow it. This second world order is the Theosophists’ Kingdom of God. Blavatsky told us who their god is. It is Lucifer. And how better a way to have a luciferian antichrist arrive on the scene, to be taken seriously by all as he crushes the New World Order, seemingly rescuing all of humanity
from the clutches of its tyrannical all seeing eye.

Some more interesting articles on Zeitgeist 2 Addendum

Zeitgeist 2 propagandizing natural law!!
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1439;sa=showPosts

Zeitgeist Addendum = Steaming Pile of NWO Propaganda
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/67072

Alex Jones Tv:Zeitgeist Addendum"The Review"1/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyQtN4HY4Ko

My take on Zeitgeist: Addendum and The Venus Project.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread399375/pg1

[strt]

Great post, thanks.

[janhus]

you can never trust anyone 100%... but you can see things and come to conclusion by yourself

i wrote this in other topic...
I watched Zeitgeist 2 few days ago and it was good but disturbing.
I live in Croatia (southeast europe) and our goverment is exactly like one they discuss in Zeitgeist. Corrupted, pro american/EU/NATO and selling everything we own like medical/chemical industry, oil companies, banks. Farmers are totaly out of business because big corporations are taking over the market with cheap low quality products. We have about 40 bil € dept and nothing is being built. There are even stories about NATO base in adriatic sea...
and our spineless foreign minister said literally: We will do ANYTHING to enter EU.
...and they are

it is happening now in this moment... it started few years ago but i recognised it in zeitgeist 2

And one thing i can say about venus project is that it is only "public" idea of the future society for now and they didn't say it was the only solution... so if there is a better idea you should state it

[loki]

hey there is nothing wrong with a NWO or a 1 world government ... as long as its not run by corrupt greedy bastards ...

it could actually be decent, all together as one earth would be great ... if we do it right

[nowheretorun]

hey there is nothing wrong with a NWO or a 1 world government ... as long as its not run by corrupt greedy bastards ...

it could actually be decent, all together as one earth would be great ... if we do it right

I agree, but it would be naive to think that the Elite wouldn't anticipate this this and use it to their advantage. Really the more you read of their work the more it seems like the "phoenix" will emerge as the antithesis of the first order they create, much like a "democrat" is elected because so many people are fed up with the "republicans."

we might pat outselves on the back believing we have defeated the NWO never realizing that its only another flavor, I fully expect Kissinger and Reagan's Aliens to unite the world, they will play a significant role in this otherwise impossible feat imo.

I did a short video about this here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu3X1Kp3L1A

[equitibile]

hey there is nothing wrong with a NWO or a 1 world government ... as long as its not run by corrupt greedy bastards ...

it could actually be decent, all together as one earth would be great ... if we do it right

Do not allow yourself to be so naive. This movement is not about world government, it is about world worship. The great work is a religious movement and their intent is to have all the world worship their god. World political/economic hegemony is necessary only insofar as it enables them to destroy anyone who refuses to worship and give up their souls at the altar of lucifer.

[mightiswrong]

Centralisation of power i.e. global government is not a good idea. We should be looking to our ancestors for wisdom. There is a better way forward that is practical, realistic and wise:

It is the setting up of kin's domains where each family takes 2.5 acres of land and cherishes it planting for themselves a beautiful garden filled with edible plants. Thus each individual and family contributes to the creation of a paradise garden that stretches around the whole earth living in health, freedom and prosperity. For full details order the ringing cedars series now. http://www.ringingcedars.co.uk/
http://www.zvkedri.com/images/zkr_english_8.jpg

[persian_x]

Turn off your cold-war propaganda filter about the "red devil", and think objectivily.
Communism in theory is not bad at all, its far off better than what overexcessive greedy capitalism. But in practice, however, in the hands of the wrong people, its just the same shit, since centralization is key to this ideology.

You need to see how communism differs and resembles the Venus Project. If communism can be used in a "higher conscious" society free of money/debt/guns/religion/prisons/army, it's the perfect society. But since Marx's communism has in its primal structure (stepping stones) money and centralization, it can never bring good and enable humanity to progress.

Jensen, from Network, explains the monetary system & applied communism in Soviet Russia very well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BVqIjKyJh0

Venus Project offers pure socialism WITHOUT money WITHOUT absolute centralization, thus bringing in a free and healthy society, which is basically what everyone in this forum wants (including all the free-thinkers across the globe): FREE, UNIFIED, ENLIGHTENED, HEALTHY and TECHNOLOGICALLY AMAZING l337

[chris]

Venus Project offers pure socialism WITHOUT money WITHOUT absolute centralization, thus bringing in a free and healthy society, which is basically what everyone in this forum wants (including all the free-thinkers across the globe): FREE, UNIFIED, ENLIGHTENED, HEALTHY and TECHNOLOGICALLY AMAZING l337

BS. I've yet to hear how the Venus Project will implement it's goals...That's my whole critique. I certainly don't want to live in that socialist nightmare. So what are they going to do with people like me?

I want to live out in nature and only make enough to get by and use coverup technologies for myself and my own little community. There's no way I'm going to be a technician in that weird unnatural totalitarian state.

[mightiswrong]

Venus project offers lots of window dressing and fantasy. Nature is what sustains us. Pure water, fresh food. Things that don't even get a mention in this movie. Culture from the latin: to cultivate and they talk of a culture with zero reference to agri-culture. Appeals to materialsm, AMAZING TECHNOLOGY, a transatlantic railway. Fluff and dreams when we have matters of real importance to contend with. I have invested much of the year studying the ringing cedars series and am convinced the kin's domains offer a real solution that will enhance, love, health, real prosperity and freedom in the context of the local community with a strategy for implementation that has already check mated the technocratic system.

[clozaril]

a good post there, nowheretorun

addendum was strange i enjoyed the john perkins bit but the rest was like an advert for the venus project.

also the mag-lev train part it just seemed like a more controlled form of travel - there is only one way to travel and you can only go to destinations of our choosing.

[eternal_spirit]

Good post Nowheretorun.

[lessgov2007]

I still don't get how anyone thinks the NWO elite, or whatever, would have any power in a Venus Project society. It's not based on a monetary system. The ruling class derives their power through the control of the monetary system. Take that away from them, and they no longer have their control. That was the entire point of the movie. The idea of a resource based society eliminates the mechanism with spawn elitism.

[wingmaster05]

I still don't get how anyone thinks the NWO elite, or whatever, would have any power in a Venus Project society. It's not based on a monetary system. The ruling class derives their power through the control of the monetary system. Take that away from them, and they no longer have their control. That was the entire point of the movie. The idea of a resource based society eliminates the mechanism with spawn elitism.

I think i will put my thoughts down in a separate post altogether...but here is the shortened version.

The venus project scenario is only possible in a "shit hits the fan" couple of years and we see global decentralization, wars/anarchy. This scenario is in line with the various forecasts of a very large population reduction. The hot number is around a 90% reduction to about 500 million people. That incredible catastrophe, whatever actually happens, may shock the human organism into drastically altering its ways.

Otherwise, if any current politicians like Sarkozy starts implementing Zeitgeist ideas, without any real change seen amongst the population at large (aka still all sheep), then i will stay the HECK AWAY from that new world order.

Basically, there needs to be an ultimate turning point, a super moment, where somehow, some way, the people radically begin changing from complacent consumerists to free thinking, benevolent people. This will be so obvious if it happens. (UFO boys, insert october 14th theory here). If not, then I'm guessing extremely in favor of a NWO trap.

but again, never be dead set in your beliefs.

[lessgov2007]

I think i will put my thoughts down in a separate post altogether...but here is the shortened version.

The venus project scenario is only possible in a "shit hits the fan" couple of years and we see global decentralization, wars/anarchy. This scenario is in line with the various forecasts of a very large population reduction. The hot number is around a 90% reduction to about 500 million people. That incredible catastrophe, whatever actually happens, may shock the human organism into drastically altering its ways.

Otherwise, if any current politicians like Sarkozy starts implementing Zeitgeist ideas, without any real change seen amongst the population at large (aka still all sheep), then i will stay the HECK AWAY from that new world order.

Basically, there needs to be an ultimate turning point, a super moment, where somehow, some way, the people radically begin changing from complacent consumerists to free thinking, benevolent people. This will be so obvious if it happens. (UFO boys, insert october 14th theory here). If not, then I'm guessing extremely in favor of a NWO trap.

but again, never be dead set in your beliefs.

I agree with what your saying. My question was how people are connecting the ideas proposed in Zeitgeist to the NWO. It simply makes no sense, the elite could not be elite in such a society.

[eternal_spirit]

Communism and many other movements sounded good in theory, but in practice it was a slaves and master system with a greedy Elite. And that's what it will be based mostly on "Communism."

If they do away with money and give us all credits/points to buy things with, if you don't follow the rules of the system they'll suspend your credits. If you do extra for the system you'll get extra credits or some kind of bonus/reward. It's based on Pavlovian style philosophy - Good dog bad dog.

Just read the people involved with this stuff is enough for anyone who's done enough research will know it's NWO/Elite psychopaths pulling the strings.

Control and supply of food is all they need to have total control over all of us, and they have seed banks patented (Monsanto) a hand full of interconnected companies own all the food and water plus all the other natural resources.

Green is the colour of Lucifer hence the green movement.

Think it was Maurice Strong (UN) said about humans "You'll wish you had as many rights as a tree by the time we've finished making all the laws" Meaning trees will have more value than human life. This is the green agenda. Top scientists (eugenicist really) give speeches about we need to reduce population and they get funding and rounds of applause. :(

Children are already reporting on parents and neighbours for not being "eco friendly" Like the Chinese report their neighbours to the authorities for having too many children, off for an abortion if they get pregnant too many times.

Research
Agenda 21

the UN

Green movement which is funded by None Governmental Organisations (NGO's) and the United Nations (UN)

[lessgov2007]

Communism and many other movements sounded good in theory, but in practice it was a slaves and master system with a greedy Elite. And that's what it will be based mostly on "Communism."

If they do away with money and give us all credits/points to buy things with, if you don't follow the rules of the system they'll suspend your credits. If you do extra for the system you'll get extra credits or some kind of bonus/reward. It's based on Pavlovian style philosophy - Good dog bad dog.

Just read the people involved with this stuff is enough for anyone who's done enough research will know it's NWO/Elite psychopaths pulling the strings.

Control and supply of food is all they need to have total control over all of us, and they have seed banks patented (Monsanto) a hand full of interconnected companies own all the food and water plus all the other natural resources.

Green is the colour of Lucifer hence the green movement.

Think it was Maurice Strong (UN) said about humans "You'll wish you had as many rights as a tree by the time we've finished making all the laws" Meaning trees will have more value than human life. This is the green agenda. Top scientists (eugenicist really) give speeches about we need to reduce population and they get funding and rounds of applause. :(

Parents are already reporting on parents and neighbours for not being "eco friendly" Like the Chinese report their neighbours to the authorities for having too many children, off for an abortion if they get pregnant too many times.

Research
Agenda 21

the UN

Green movement which is funded by None Governmental Organisations (NGO's) and the United Nations (UN)

The Venus Project isn't based on credits, or any form of monetary value system. Therefore, there can be no control over your wealth status. In the Zeitgeist movie, this is well explained. Communism has nothing to do with the idea's being proposed in this movie. In a Venus Project resource based society, everyone would have an equal social status. I'm at a loss, as to how so many people are over looking what the movie advocates.

[nowheretorun]

i just made a video about this post, it a lot better that reading it lol

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8780948378423258789

[lessgov2007]

Some people will never see beyond their mental conditioning.

[eternal_spirit]

The Venus Project isn't based on credits, or any form of monetary value system. Therefore, there can be no control over your wealth status. In the Zeitgeist movie, this is well explained. Communism has nothing to do with the idea's being proposed in this movie. In a Venus Project resource based society, everyone would have an equal social status. I'm at a loss, as to how so many people are over looking what the movie advocates.



They have to make it sounds Rosie to sell the idea to us. And I'm not buying it. They had farming communes what they called collectives in USSR/Communism, which failed miserably.

It was the Zionists/Freemasons/Luciferians who invented Communism, apartheid and Zionism

Think Theosophy (Crowley MI6 Rothschild double agent) It's the same groups/bloodlines etc behind the Venus project. You think the same psychopathic Elite families have suddenly developed a conscience and empathy for the masses/lower classes after screwing them for thousands of years, I don't.

Control and supply of food is all they need to have total control over all of us,(food will be rationed) and they have seed banks patented (Monsanto) a hand full of interconnected companies own all the food and water plus all the other natural resources. EDIT - they can withold these things.

[oiram]

hey there is nothing wrong with a NWO or a 1 world government ... as long as its not run by corrupt greedy bastards ...
it could actually be decent, all together as one earth would be great ... if we do it rightExactly my opinion; the basic concept is OK & is only one of many options which can be expended as needed; the key is to control the operators so it never turns into a monopoly!
You select People because of there capability's not because of there Mafia connection records, status or blood line connections!
You don't select people because they are presented to you like in your corrupt Elections where left and right top & bottom is run by the same controller!!
You don't need Leaders, hypocrites & rhetorical liars; you need unity, understanding & capable wise People!
Also I am convinced the ones which will make the biggest noise about the Movie are Religious people why because there capability of logical thinking has been blocked because of there indoctrination!

What bugs me the most & this forum is full of these people is when someone argues an idea that they never come up with a different solution!
To just say this is no good without attaching a better or optional solution is just being hypocritical!
Positive criticizing always has a solution attached to the complain; all els is just blah blah in my view!

[lessgov2007]

They have to make it sounds Rosie to sell the idea to us. And I'm not buying it. They had farming communes what they called collectives in USSR/Communism, which failed miserably.

It was the Zionists/Freemasons/Luciferians who invented Communism, apartheid and Zionism

Think Theosophy (Crowley MI6 Rothschild double agent) It's the same groups/bloodlines etc behind the Venus project. You think the same psychopathic Elite families have suddenly developed a conscience and empathy for the masses/lower classes after screwing them for thousands of years, I don't.

Control and supply of food is all they need to have total control over all of us,(food will be rationed) and they have seed banks patented (Monsanto) a hand full of interconnected companies own all the food and water plus all the other natural resources. EDIT - they can withold these things.

I disagree, no society has ever existed on planet Earth such as proposed by the Venus Project.

[knightofthegrail]

Communism seems like a good idea......until you get past humanism and human-centric thinking.


“Do not accumulate for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth25 and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. But accumulate for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“The eye is the lamp of the body. If then your eye is healthy,your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is diseased,your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

Do Not Worry

“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Isn’t there more to life than food and more to the body than clothing? Look at the birds in the sky: They do not sow, or reap, or gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you more valuable than they are? And which of you by worrying can add even one hour to his life? Why do you worry about clothing? Think about how the flowers of the field grow; they do not work or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed like one of these! And if this is how God clothes the wild grass,which is here today and tomorrow is tossed into the fire to heat the oven,won’t he clothe you even more,you people of little faith? So then, don’t worry saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear?’ For the unconverted pursue these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But above all pursue his kingdom and righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. So then, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today has enough trouble of its own.

Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 6, The sermon on the mount

Govt, and the desire *for* govt, always always always comes from the mindset of fear.

Fear not :)

[romas]

It's important to remember that what we call christianity today is nothing but a scam for their own one world government, the cathlic church tried to web europe under its iron fist, murdering millions of pagans who ARE NOT satanists, they are same as african shamans etc, they believed in spirits of nature, everyne has right to believe whatever they want as long as it does not mean oppression of others. Same goes to theosophy and alien cults and whathave you, it's human right image their own life, fuck all the scripture repeaters.

There you have a nacist pope sitting on his golden throne saying world plundged into materialism, while his fucking scum organization is behind the most powerfull "currency" controll corporations of the world.

Their descriptions of gods and demons are meaningless shit open for interpretation and tools for controll of feeble minded people who are so oppressed each day to work from dusk till dawn for the same organizations that are backing up the church.

The church agents are all over the world, they are payed goons to instill fear and condition your mind and collect taxes, nothing more and nothing less.

Untill some one can back shit up with details beyond "I want this or I want that or here's my opinion why this is communism or why he is a demon/alien" it's trivial spam.

[eternal_spirit]

It's important to remember that what we call christianity today is nothing but a scam for their own one world government, the cathlic church tried to web europe under its iron fist, murdering millions of pagans who ARE NOT satanists, they are same as african shamans etc, they believed in spirits of nature, everyne has right to believe whatever they want as long as it does not mean oppression of others. Same goes to theosophy and alien cults and whathave you, it's human right image their own life, fuck all the scripture repeaters.

There you have a nacist pope sitting on his golden throne saying world plundged into materialism, while his fucking scum organization is behind the most powerfull "currency" controll corporations of the world.

Their descriptions of gods and demons are meaningless shit open for interpretation and tools for controll of feeble minded people who are so oppressed each day to work from dusk till dawn for the same organizations that are backing up the church.

The church agents are all over the world, they are payed goons to instill fear and condition your mind and collect taxes, nothing more and nothing less.

Untill some one can back shit up with details beyond "I want this or I want that or here's my opinion why this is communism or why he is a demon/alien" it's trivial spam.


Fukc off with your Christians killed Pagans crap that's spam. I couldn't give a toss about Biblical scriptures myself but listening to people like you backing up NWO players, denying these Elite's are evil and just good old commies you don't know jack shit! It's not the fucking dark ages 15th century dude it's 2008! The Church has little or no influence here in Britain Today on me or anyone I know. And you blame everything on Christianity is delusional bullshit of the highest order. Go read the OP and watch read and learn ffs. Are you Jewish?

It's bollox mate the Rothschilds and co is where the real power is at not the Church. NGOs, Diamonds, Gold, Military industrial complex, these people sure as hell don't live by the Bible's commandments. Karl Marx Satanist, Talmud exponent=Communism the ism which has murdered more people (mostly religious Christians and Buddhists) than any other movement in history and they done this in the last century alone!

[elirien]

It's important to remember that what we call christianity today is nothing but a scam for their own one world government, the cathlic church tried to web europe under its iron fist, murdering millions of pagans who ARE NOT satanists, they are same as african shamans etc, they believed in spirits of nature, everyne has right to believe whatever they want as long as it does not mean oppression of others. Same goes to theosophy and alien cults and whathave you, it's human right image their own life, fuck all the scripture repeaters.

There you have a nacist pope sitting on his golden throne saying world plundged into materialism, while his fucking scum organization is behind the most powerfull "currency" controll corporations of the world.

Their descriptions of gods and demons are meaningless shit open for interpretation and tools for controll of feeble minded people who are so oppressed each day to work from dusk till dawn for the same organizations that are backing up the church.

The church agents are all over the world, they are payed goons to instill fear and condition your mind and collect taxes, nothing more and nothing less.

Untill some one can back shit up with details beyond "I want this or I want that or here's my opinion why this is communism or why he is a demon/alien" it's trivial spam.

Dude, I'm not a christian but I know that there is a huuuuge difference between Christianity (which was not defined as a religion imho) and that sick idolatry cult called catholicism.

I have to agree with Eternal Spirit on most things.

Thank you very much nowheretorun. Again a very very good article. This needs spreading.

[lightworks]

bollocks and good morning..hello evryone...how is your heart today...are you vibrating in higher conciousness or feeding into the illuminati web?

[eternal_spirit]

bollocks and good morning..hello evryone...how is your heart today...are you vibrating in higher conciousness or feeding into the illuminati web?

Sorry but I feel a bit like that dog in your avatar at the moment.
Like GRRRR Like grrrrrrrrrrrrrRRR!


All those aliens threads are doing my nut in.

[romas]

Fukc off with your Christians killed Pagans crap that's spam. I couldn't give a toss about Biblical scriptures myself but listening to people like you backing up NWO players, denying these Elite's are evil and just good old commies you don't know jack shit! It's not the fucking dark ages 15th century dude it's 2008! The Church has little or no influence here in Britain Today on me or anyone I know. And you blame everything on Christianity is delusional bullshit of the highest order. Go read the OP and watch read and learn ffs. Are you Jewish? It's bollox mate the Rothschilds and co is where the real power is at not the Church.



LoL no you're the one spamming kiddie nonesense, church is still controlling major corporations and their in cahoots with bankers and mass missmedia, how the fuck do you think they can finance their operations?
You have no idea about commies nor christianity, because you have little experience outside books and articles on internet, britain is not all there is in the world and in fact it's of little significance anyway lol

I love kiddies posting nonesense about shit don't know using words like "demons" "satanists" murderers and maniacs are proper terms stop spreading nonesense. What would it change if I was jewish? Or arab? Totally brainwashed fellow. :rolleyes:

[eternal_spirit]

LoL no you're the one spamming kiddie nonesense, church is still controlling major corporations and their in cahoots with bankers and mass missmedia, how the fuck do you think they can finance their operations?
You have no idea about commies nor christianity, because you have little experience outside books and articles on internet, britain is not all there is in the world and in fact it's of little significance anyway lol

I love kiddies posting nonesense about shit don't know using words like "demons" "satanists" murderers and maniacs are proper terms stop spreading nonesense. What would it change if I was jewish? Or arab? Totally brainwashed fellow. :rolleyes:


No point in arguing with an uneducated biggot like you, why ruin a good thread, it's obvious the topic is beyond your comprehension. I know all about Communism and Christianity it's obvious you know little. You take the programmed brainwashed narrow minded views about Christians fed to you by NWO Satanists/Lucefarian/Freemasons etc. There's always a few who will drag Nowheretoruns threads into the same stupid debate, meaning - It bothers you that the OP is Christian hence your stupic comments and baiting.

I'll leave it at that but you can carry on in another more suitable thread if you wish so. :)

[helloperator]

Zeitgeist Addendum has shown the way forward.

In the future, robots will clean toilets...even the inside of the bowl and every other nook and cranny.

It will be a world where nothing can ever possiblily go wrong...and where everyone can advance technologically, living in domes and tubes.

It's the way.

I bow down before you ADDENDUM. You are my god.

[romas]

No point in arguing with an uneducated biggot like you, why ruin a good thread, it's obvious the topic is beyond your comprehension. I know all about Communism and Christianity it's obvious you know little. You take the programmed brainwashed narrow minded views about Christians fed to you by NWO Satanists/Lucefarian/Freemasons etc. There's always a few who will drag Nowheretoruns threads into the same stupid debate.

I'll leave it at that but you can carry on in another more suitable thread if you wish so. :)



It's beyond my comprehension that some kiddies(mentally) are throwing big phrases (NWO Satanists/Lucefarian/Freemasons/Cumminism/Marxism) in one pool to feel important and generally speak about their ass? Take a chill pill no one cares how angry you are boy lol

[helloperator]

Noone cares you're from Lithuania either...but you tell everyone

;)

[persian_x]

When there is NO GOVERNMENT and NO MONEY, there is FREEDOM.

and thats what VENUS PROJECT is all about, end of story.

[lightgiver]

Zeitgeist Addendum has shown the way forward.

In the future, robots will clean toilets...even the inside of the bowl and every other nook and cranny.

It will be a world where nothing can ever possiblily go wrong...and where everyone can advance technologically, living in domes and tubes.

It's the way.

I bow down before you ADDENDUM. You are my god.

if we had biodegradable loos,then we would not have to clean them or use water,and there are loads of green methods to dispose of our shit;)

without project venus,ha ha.

[lightgiver]

When there is NO GOVERNMENT and NO MONEY, there is FREEDOM.

and thats what VENUS PROJECT is all about, end of story.

You think the elites want to share the same space as us,if you think yes,then you are in cloud cuckoo land:rolleyes:that's why they behave like they do,because they do not want to share the same space as us.

[elirien]

When there is NO GOVERNMENT and NO MONEY, there is FREEDOM.

and thats what VENUS PROJECT is all about, end of story.

That's called escapism. Comment on the video or get a grip on your failings to cope with reality.

[london_lad_84]

Do not allow yourself to be so naive. This movement is not about world government, it is about world worship. The great work is a religious movement and their intent is to have all the world worship their god. World political/economic hegemony is necessary only insofar as it enables them to destroy anyone who refuses to worship and give up their souls at the altar of lucifer.


I missed the part of Zeitgeist Addendum where people are told to worship something or someone.

[equitibile]

I missed the part of Zeitgeist Addendum where people are told to worship something or someone.

You also missed the original post, then. Read it again. It is not even necessary to look at the similarities between the ideas espoused in zeitgeist with that of Alice Bailey. Merely looking at the pyramidal sun symbol used in the movie should remove any doubt of the origin and itention of the film. Anyone who has even the smallest knowledge of the occult understands what that means. It is not there by accident. Symbols, especially one as significant as that one, are more than just communication. They are gateways to the spiritual realm.

EDIT: Not that I believe the venus project is a blueprint of new world order. Far from it. It is nothing more than a mirage to divert activist energy into a false solution, while at the same time transmitting certain principles that will be part of the coming age.

[lightgiver]

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/1778/10xr9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Maybe the zeitgeist lot or in on the venus project???

future by design fresco
The Venus Project presents a bold, new direction for humanity that entails nothing less than the total redesign of our culture. There are many people today who are concerned with the serious problems that face our modern society: unemployment, violent crime, replacement of humans by technology, over-population and a decline in the Earth's ecosystems. As you will see, The Venus Project is dedicated to confronting all of these problems by actively engaging in the research, development, and application of workable solutions. Through the use of innovative approaches to social awareness, educational incentives, and the consistent application of the best that science and technology can offer directly to the social system, The Venus Project offers a comprehensive plan for social reclamation in which human beings, technology, and nature will be able to coexist in a long-term, sustainable state of dynamic equilibrium.

The plans for the Venus Project offer society a broader spectrum of choices based on the scientific possibilities inherent in current technology and direct that knowledge toward a new era of peace and sustainability for all cultures. Through the implementation of a resource-based economy, and a multitude of innovative and environmentally friendly technologies directly applied to the social system, The Venus Project proposals will dramatically reduce crime, poverty, hunger, homelessness, and many other pressing problems that are common throughout the world today.

One of the cornerstones of the organization's findings is the fact that many of the dysfunctional behaviors of today's society stem directly from the dehumanizing environment inherent in the existing monetary system. Moreover, the currently utilized random implementation of automation and other technologies have resulted in a fragmented, self-defeating trend occurring throughout the manufacturing and high-tech sectors of today's global economy--namely the technological replacement of human labor by machines. The Venus Project proposes a social system in which automation and technology would be intelligently applied and integrated into an overall social design where the primary function would be to maximize the quality of life rather than profits. This project also introduces a set of workable and acceptable human values that are more appropriate and in balance with our present state of technology.
©2007, The Venus Project. All rights reserved.
Website, E-commerce and Database powered by: Progress Technologies.

have you noticed on their web page,they have spelt labour and behaviour wrong,(or maybe thats how you spell it in the U.S?) hhmm says something about this project one feels;):D

[pdcdp]

a small question about the venus project...

who will cook the food? and who will wash up afterwards?:confused:

[lightgiver]

a small question about the venus project...

who will cook the food? and who will wash up afterwards?:confused:

Exactly,probably robots:rolleyes:;) and not forgetting growing the crops and the distribution :confused: maybe everyone will be on GM food by then:eek:or people will be that brainwashed they wont have to eat,or maybe their wont be many people left at all, only the ones left slaving for the masters:eek:;)

[orbandsceptre27]

Edward de Bono

http://www.edwarddebono.com/Default.php

http://www.edwdebono.com/

http://edwarddebonofoundation.com/

[romas]

Edward de Bono

http://www.edwarddebono.com/Default.php

http://www.edwdebono.com/

http://edwarddebonofoundation.com/


Thanks I'll check that out ^^

[clozaril]

will drugs still be available or will the venus project outlaw them ?

[romas]

a small question about the venus project...

who will cook the food? and who will wash up afterwards?:confused:


Is that serious question or one of those who will clean my toilet questions? ._.

[eternal_spirit]

a small question about the venus project...

who will cook the food? and who will wash up afterwards?:confused:


There's been stories and even the teachers at school (decades since I was there) would say by year 2000 we'd have all these robots that would do all sorts and we'd be flying round in space ships, cars would be a thing of the past, machines/robots would do most of the work/jobs and we'd have lots of leisure time :rolleyes:it's hogwash, never happened.

Maybe these stories where coded about robots etc and the real meaning is that some humans will be cyborgs soon, part man part machine (transhumanism) which I think is a devious plan and involves many Elite scientists/eugenicists and the lies.

One of the beliefs of the mystery schools/Freemasons is that man is imperfect by nature and they must perfect man through science
and technology.

[clozaril]

must of been 12 yrs ago when bbc2 did a documentry on nanotechnology, eric k drexler was on it showing how nanobots will clean the enviorment the air the sea etc. and all of this should of been happening 2 yrs ago ! according to that show

[element]

One of the beliefs of the mystery schools/Freemasons is that man is imperfect by nature and they must perfect man through science
and technology.

The mystery schools say man is imperfect, but where do they focus on technology?

[eternal_spirit]

will drugs still be available or will the venus project outlaw them ?

If any, for control purposes.
Ones that chemically lobotomise the parts of the brain/mind that gives you your freewill, individuality and critical analytic thinking abilities, too dumb down and suppress any original thinking thoughts based on or the same as the ones that the psychiatric industry use.

In parallel.
In Aldous Huxley's Brave New World it was known as Soma. And he was an advocate of an early version of what probably later became Transhumanism.

His speeches at the Berkeley Institute to name one are very revealing.

[eternal_spirit]

The mystery schools say man is imperfect, but where do they focus on technology?


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bpNlg3-dpGo

Short vid - according to this they have kept many secrets.

[pali_gap]

Producing food is the main issue not who will cook it:rolleyes:

[grenadene]

a small question about the venus project...

who will cook the food? and who will wash up afterwards?:confused:

Probably the people who like cooking... I'll certainly cook for as many people as I can should i ever need... especially if they bring me the ingredients and offer to wash up their own plate afterwards :)

[london_lad_84]

You also missed the original post, then. Read it again. It is not even necessary to look at the similarities between the ideas espoused in zeitgeist with that of Alice Bailey. Merely looking at the pyramidal sun symbol used in the movie should remove any doubt of the origin and itention of the film. Anyone who has even the smallest knowledge of the occult understands what that means. It is not there by accident. Symbols, especially one as significant as that one, are more than just communication. They are gateways to the spiritual realm.

EDIT: Not that I believe the venus project is a blueprint of new world order. Far from it. It is nothing more than a mirage to divert activist energy into a false solution, while at the same time transmitting certain principles that will be part of the coming age.

You're seeing what you want to see, how about leaving 'battle mode' and putting effort into making this world a better place?

Peace.

[elirien]

You're seeing what you want to see, how about leaving 'battle mode' and putting effort into making this world a better place?

Peace.

No. You seem to be rejecting the information presented in the film. Please watch the movie tomorrow after breakfast. Exposing the true intentions of a product is what makes this world a better place and unbiased sentences are not 'battle mode'. The instinct of denial is what conspirators always feed upon. That's why they work out in the open.

[pdcdp]

Probably the people who like cooking... I'll certainly cook for as many people as I can should i ever need... especially if they bring me the ingredients and offer to wash up their own plate afterwards :)

that sounds like a JOB to me....

[london_lad_84]

No. You seem to be rejecting the information presented in the film. Please watch the movie tomorrow after breakfast. Exposing the true intentions of a product is what makes this world a better place and unbiased sentences are not 'battle mode'. The instinct of denial is what conspirators always feed upon. That's why they work out in the open.

Oh get over yourself, your truth is your truth, my truth is my truth.

Talking to me in a condescending way wont make me waver over to YOUR opinion, so drop it.

Just for your valuable information, i have watched Zeitgeist Addendum three times thank you, maybe you should pick out some of the positives instead of making up ideas based on some imagery. The ideas presented by zeitgeist addendum are not one bit illuminati, apart from a unified world and if you want to segregate yourself from humanity then thats your perogative.

As i stated on another thread, zeitgeist opposes ANY religion, ALL government and any subservient behaviour - Go create your new world order idea with that!

Over and out.

[pdcdp]

As i stated on another thread, zeitgeist opposes ANY religion, ALL government and any subservient behaviour - Go create your new world order idea with that!

Over and out.

FFS... you're gonna get us killed or enslaved....:mad:

[grenadene]

that sounds like a JOB to me....

What were you thinking of doing with your time... ?

I was thinking of mucking in with the skills I have and enjoy using, I'm one of those community spirited kind of gals :)

[london_lad_84]

FFS... you're gonna get us killed or enslaved....:mad:

How did you even come to a conclusion like that???

Live your own life, your the leader of your life, im the leader of mine, obviously....

[pdcdp]

What were you thinking of doing with your time... ?

I was thinking of mucking in with the skills I have and enjoy using, I'm one of those community spirited kind of gals :)

i hear you:), but it's still a commitment which would need to be precisely equal to everybody elses, in order to run a fair and equal society.

also, some of us produce much better food than others, some will make more of a mess to clean up.... would the worlds food supply be like a giant branded restaurant where everybody gets exactly the same choice and preparation of food, down to the last gram of peas?

most people can feed themselves, but some can't and have special nutritional needs. i just think that this small question is indicative that the system would have to be far too fussy for it to work. regardless of social hierarchy etc...

[pdcdp]

How did you even come to a conclusion like that???

Live your own life, your the leader of your life, im the leader of mine, obviously....

can you really not see? venus is not the answer, positive in parts, but far too easily corruptible and fussy....

[london_lad_84]

can you really not see? venus is not the answer, positive in parts, but far too easily corruptible and fussy....

Dont talk to me in that way, condescending if you know all there is to know....

If you want me to have a conversation/debate with you then you will need to be respectful.

How about helping improve the world through the positive aspects of unity and no subsurvience that the zeitgeist movement is trying to organise?

No-one is joining a zeitgeist movement thinking people are going to be subsurvient to anyone else, how the hell do you think that could come about with all due respect with all the built in opposition?

[grenadene]

i hear you:), but it's still a commitment which would need to be precisely equal to everybody elses, in order to run a fair and equal society.

also, some of us produce much better food than others, some will make more of a mess to clean up.... would the worlds food supply be like a giant branded restaurant where everybody gets exactly the same choice and preparation of food, down to the last gram of peas?

most people can feed themselves, but some can't and have special nutritional needs. i just think that this small question is indicative that the system would have to be far too fussy for it to work. regardless of social hierarchy etc...

I dont get the similarity between VP and communism? :confused:

I'm pretty sure we'd kick about in family groups, friends and other alliances... like people do all over the world and like we did before we 'mass production' of nasty plastic crappy material shite took over. People would soon regain pride in their work if it was of importance and observable benefit.

[pdcdp]

Dont talk to me in that way, condescending if you know all there is to know....

If you want me to have a conversation/debate with you then you will need to be respectful.



?:confused:

'i know not what to do, i know what not to do.' me,2008

any eutopian society is fundamentally flawed. individual communities under common law with abolition of profiting from money, and government of course, is my best answer as of yet.

[romas]

?:confused:

'i know not what to do, i know what not to do.' me,2008

any eutopian society is fundamentally flawed. individual communities under common law with abolition of profiting from money, and government of course, is my best answer as of yet.




Individual Communities, in other words, tribes? Don't you know where that leads?

Common law without government? You mean like in Venus Project?

Abolition of profiting from money? Doesn't that kind of like... renders money useless? You sell, you profit, period.

[pdcdp]

Individual Communities, in other words, tribes? Don't you know where that leads?

Common law without government? You mean like in Venus Project?

Abolition of profiting from money? Doesn't that kind of like... renders money useless? You sell, you profit, period.

i knew i'd have to explain this....

tribes? you can belong to several communities without being outcast from the rest. one single huge community is soooo easy to control, think we're seeing the proof of that right now....

possibly common law is applicable to both, though it's highly unlikely to be workable under VP. who is going to lead VP into fruition? who will maintain society in this way? hierarchy and government would be fundamentally necessary to VP.

profiting from money - i meant without actually buying, processing and selling something. maybe i meant interest on loans and banking.

a farmer needs a grain supplier, miller needs wheat, baker needs flour, everybody needs bread, everybody profits from and is dependant upon each others labour, nobody needs to pay or accrue money from interest, money retains its value and natural law dictates that each will help to protect each other. nobody needs to be told what they are allowed to do or how to live their lives.

mankind was doing pretty well like this before the NWO endgame began, the risk of such an incursion being applicable to any social structure.

[london_lad_84]

?:confused:

'i know not what to do, i know what not to do.' me,2008

any eutopian society is fundamentally flawed. individual communities under common law with abolition of profiting from money, and government of course, is my best answer as of yet.

My last word for now, im coming to you in debate with all good at heart and with friendship genuinely.. Peter does say there is no such thing as a utopian society, i think i disagree, but the general sentiment remains a MUCH better system can occur with what is offered by the zeitgeist movement and i think it is a great step forward.

Over and out! :)

[romas]

i knew i'd have to explain this....

tribes? you can belong to several communities without being outcast from the rest. one single huge community is soooo easy to control, think we're seeing the proof of that right now....



We did start out as communities(tribes) who fought each other isn't that pretty basic history? You want to go back there?
And if everyone in the community belonged ot other communities then it would render individual communities obsolete, it would be one giant community. Individual communities can be viewed as separatism, we don't want to be with them, we want to be with them etc, kinda missing the whole oneness message.

Depends how you define controll, you seem to think only of negative controll as in dictatorship, the few egoists making decisions etc.
I don't need controll, I need guidance by people who can provide wisdom on specific subjects, we light each other up instead of fighting.







possibly common law is applicable to both, though it's highly unlikely to be workable under VP. who is going to lead VP into fruition? who will maintain society in this way? hierarchy and government would be fundamentally necessary to VP.


It's so easy to deny everything, I can also deny your proposal, I will ask who will lead people to individual communities without them fighting for natural resources? We will both answer the same thing.
With your logic there would also be hierarchy in these individual communities, eventually leading to struggle for power withing these communities.






profiting from money - i meant without actually buying, processing and selling something. maybe i meant interest on loans and banking.


Don't quite undirstand this, please clarify.






a farmer needs a grain supplier, miller needs wheat, baker needs flour, everybody needs bread, everybody profits from and is dependant upon each others labour, nobody needs to pay or accrue money from interest, money retains its value and natural law dictates that each will help to protect each other. nobody needs to be told what they are allowed to do or how to live their lives.

mankind was doing pretty well like this before the NWO endgame began, the risk of such an incursion being applicable to any social structure.


So that's about all you need, some bread and water, well I'm sure an enlightened society would let individuals create their own medieval type of villages or whathaveyou, not everyone has to be part of the "system"
I'd like to see VP as voluntary creation, you can say an individual community that involves millions of people who are tired of bullshit.

However majority of people do enjoy leasure time when they do not have to carry wheat to the mill, in fact alot of people want to travel to other star systems and that's hardly achievable in a small community.

[duckingdafta]

if you only knew what humans can and do achieve without money then you wouldn't be such greedy twats...I don't debate/argue as I know I am right and you are wrong and just making excuses for your greed...end of..

debate was over ages ago, you where told to wake the fuck up and act for what YOU believe in, why aren't you doing so? :rolleyes:

[lightgiver]

All you lot up for project venus,go and do some communal living,then decide how you feel about it;)

In the communal living UK everyone shares everything with each other. The communal living UK is not for everyone because there is little or no privacy and most people are used to having their privacy. Some people can live in this way, but many others can’t so it is important that if someone is considering communal living UK that they look further into it to see if they can live in this manner. It certainly is not for most people at all.

If someone is considering communal living UK it is important to learn all about the way they live according to communal living law. According to communal living law the people must share all that they have with the rest of the community. That may mean money and possessions, too. Because the community shares everything, the money that the people make will be shared among all of them. For this reason it is very difficult for many people to live in this manner. If they work hard they want their own money to spend and not to share with the rest of the community. In communal living UK they all have to share what they make so this can be very difficult for many people to endure.

When you are considering communal living UK be sure that you do a lot of research on it. You can find out more information about it on the internet. When you find a good site that has a lot of information on you make sure that you add to your favorites so that you can pull it up whenever you need to. Print out any information that you think you might need in the future and jot down any notes that you need to. Store all of this information in a folder and keep it in a handy place. That way you will always be able to look up the information when you need to. Make sure that you get as much information as possible. This will help you to make a better informed decision on whether or not you want to go into communal living UK. If it is something you are not comfortable with you won’t want to even consider it.

Make sure that you talk to people that are communal living UK to see what they think about it. If it is something that they can tolerate or if they don’t like it find out why not. This will also help you to make a better decision. Most people that communal living UK will have opinions that they will give to you and hopefully they will give you honest ones so that you can make a better decision. Most people do not want to be involved in communal living UK because it is not a private way of life and most people do like their privacy.

Communal living UK is not a popular way of life and should not be considered at all if it does not appeal to you. Make sure that if you know someone who is considering this that you also let them know about the problems involved with communal living UK and that they avoid getting involved with it if it is something that will be detrimental to them. Let them know all the pitfalls of living like that and they might decide that it is not for them. At least let them know they should do much research before they consider it and also look into all the different problems that can arise when they live in arrangements like this.

see how long you last?? good luck.

interesting link for you http://americanhistory.si.edu/LisaLaw/6.htm

[lightgiver]

Jacque Fresco (born March 13, 1916) is an industrial engineer, architectural designer, social engineer and futurist based in Florida. His optimistic view and desire to create solutions that maximally benefit the greatest number of people stem from his formative years during the Great Depression. To this day he writes and lectures extensively on subjects ranging from the holistic design of sustainable cities, energy efficiency, natural resource management and advanced automation, focusing on the benefits it will bring to society.

Resource-based economy

A major theme of his is the concept of a 'resource-based economy' that replaces the need for the scarcity-oriented monetary economy we have now. Fresco argues that the world is rich in natural resources and energy and that —with modern technology and judicious efficiency— the needs of the global population can be met with abundance, while at the same time removing the current limitations of what is deemed possible due to notions of economic viability.

Circular city

Automated construction

He gives this example to help explain the idea:

At the beginning of World War II the US had a mere 600 or so first-class fighting aircraft. We rapidly overcame this short supply by turning out more than 90,000 planes a year. The question at the start of World War II was: Do we have enough funds to produce the required implements of war? The answer was No, we did not have enough money, nor did we have enough gold; but we did have more than enough resources. It was the available resources that enabled the US to achieve the high production and efficiency required to win the war. Unfortunately this is only considered in times of war.

Fresco states that for this to work, all of the Earth's resources must be held as the common heritage of all people and not just a select few; and the practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant and counterproductive to our survival.
Earlier work

In 1942, Fresco started the Revell Plastics Company (now Revell-Monogram) with Lou Glaser, although he later left to pursue his other ideas, working variously in aerospace research and development, architecture, efficient automobile design, bare-eye 3D cinematic projection methods and medical equipment design where he developed a three dimensional X-ray unit amongst other things.

Jacque lives in Florida on a 25 acre research centre populated with various domed buildings of his design along with his assistant, Roxanne Meadows, where they write books and produce films with intricately built models to demonstrate his concepts and ideas. As of Wednesday, October 8, 2008, Fresco's property is listed as "for sale by owner."

a bit of info on the project venus creators.

[pdcdp]

We did start out as communities(tribes) who fought each other isn't that pretty basic history? You want to go back there?
And if everyone in the community belonged ot other communities then it would render individual communities obsolete, it would be one giant community. Individual communities can be viewed as separatism, we don't want to be with them, we want to be with them etc, kinda missing the whole oneness message.

Depends how you define controll, you seem to think only of negative controll as in dictatorship, the few egoists making decisions etc.
I don't need controll, I need guidance by people who can provide wisdom on specific subjects, we light each other up instead of fighting.









It's so easy to deny everything, I can also deny your proposal, I will ask who will lead people to individual communities without them fighting for natural resources? We will both answer the same thing.
With your logic there would also be hierarchy in these individual communities, eventually leading to struggle for power withing these communities.








Don't quite undirstand this, please clarify.








So that's about all you need, some bread and water, well I'm sure an enlightened society would let individuals create their own medieval type of villages or whathaveyou, not everyone has to be part of the "system"
I'd like to see VP as voluntary creation, you can say an individual community that involves millions of people who are tired of bullshit.

However majority of people do enjoy leasure time when they do not have to carry wheat to the mill, in fact alot of people want to travel to other star systems and that's hardly achievable in a small community.

- who said anything about fighting? tribes used to do that because they had neither the knowledge or technology to provide fully for themselves, we already have pretty much everything we need... you seem to be talking about seperatism here, that wasn't my intention.

- surely any control over others is negative? if somebody wants to burn coal in their fireplace, that should be his or her call. when people smell and see the black smoke in their atmosphere, natural law will prevail and they will be ousted, made to stop or allowed to continue within reason, or otherwise be ousted from local trade etc. no governing body is necessary...

- are you saying that you need to be guided into your post-government community? if govt was suddenly abolished people would immediately plan with their families, link their resources with friends, neighbours and local suppliers to form communities within communities. people don't need telling who they should hang around with...
my logic on this dictates that everybody can choose who they want to associate with, hierarchy is omnipresent in any society but this way the effects of mismanagement are limited and people are free to leave without consequence.

- essentially all i mean is that banks are pretty much completely unnecessarry.

- think you missed the point at the end there, the farmer, supplier and baker all need transport, for which they will pay with some of the profit gained from their craft. the car manufacturer needs sandwiches for the staff, the sandwich shop needs bread and the baker needs shoes, the cobbler needs a doctor, the doctor needs a golf buggy, the buggy supplier needs fuel, the fuel distiller needs machine parts, the machinery manufacturer needs a web designer, and the web designer might want to go to space WHICH WILL STILL BE POSSIBLE. i've no idea why you think all of our accomplishments are going to be lost overnight, leaving us in medieval villages? come on, really?

that all seemed a bit 'doom and gloom' to me, which ironically seems to be a bit of a theme with the VP brigade.

[romas]

- who said anything about fighting? tribes used to do that because they had neither the knowledge or technology to provide fully for themselves, we already have pretty much everything we need... you seem to be talking about seperatism here, that wasn't my intention.

- surely any control over others is negative? if somebody wants to burn coal in their fireplace, that should be his or her call. when people smell and see the black smoke in their atmosphere, natural law will prevail and they will be ousted, made to stop or allowed to continue within reason, or otherwise be ousted from local trade etc. no governing body is necessary...

- are you saying that you need to be guided into your post-government community? if govt was suddenly abolished people would immediately plan with their families, link their resources with friends, neighbours and local suppliers to form communities within communities. people don't need telling who they should hang around with...
my logic on this dictates that everybody can choose who they want to associate with, hierarchy is omnipresent in any society but this way the effects of mismanagement are limited and people are free to leave without consequence.

- essentially all i mean is that banks are pretty much completely unnecessarry.

- think you missed the point at the end there, the farmer, supplier and baker all need transport, for which they will pay with some of the profit gained from their craft. the car manufacturer needs sandwiches for the staff, the sandwich shop needs bread and the baker needs shoes, the cobbler needs a doctor, the doctor needs a golf buggy, the buggy supplier needs fuel, the fuel distiller needs machine parts, the machinery manufacturer needs a web designer, and the web designer might want to go to space WHICH WILL STILL BE POSSIBLE. i've no idea why you think all of our accomplishments are going to be lost overnight, leaving us in medieval villages? come on, really?

that all seemed a bit 'doom and gloom' to me, which ironically seems to be a bit of a theme with the VP brigade.



"Tribes" had way more knowledge how to survive than any "community" today. They fought for the same reasons kings fought later and same shit nations fight today.

If banks are not necessary, who is going to issue money and who will decide the proportions needed? Remember no government?

I suppose you are going to trade sandwitches with the other community in the middle east to get oil for your "fuel distiller"? What size of "community" you are talking here just to clarify, sounds like a whole nation?

[elirien]

Oh get over yourself, your truth is your truth, my truth is my truth.

Talking to me in a condescending way wont make me waver over to YOUR opinion, so drop it.

Just for your valuable information, i have watched Zeitgeist Addendum three times thank you, maybe you should pick out some of the positives instead of making up ideas based on some imagery. The ideas presented by zeitgeist addendum are not one bit illuminati, apart from a unified world and if you want to segregate yourself from humanity then thats your perogative.

As i stated on another thread, zeitgeist opposes ANY religion, ALL government and any subservient behaviour - Go create your new world order idea with that!

Over and out.

You didn't even understand what I meant. I meant the movie posted in this topic. Chris White's movie. It is not my or any ones opinion. It shows where the base of the ideas are for the venus project and the idea of the centralization Zeitgeist Addendum shows. I'm not saying the whole film is evil. I couldn't care less. It's a damn film.

What you posted are your opinions which don't bother me at all. Watch the movie clip. Oh and if you feel that I am trying to degrade you then that's your opinion again. There is no 'your truth'. There is no 'your gravity' or 'your electricity' either.

[pdcdp]

"Tribes" had way more knowledge how to survive than any "community" today. They fought for the same reasons kings fought later and same shit nations fight today.

If banks are not necessary, who is going to issue money and who will decide the proportions needed? Remember no government?

I suppose you are going to trade sandwitches with the other community in the middle east to get oil for your "fuel distiller"? What size of "community" you are talking here just to clarify, sounds like a whole nation?

ffs... no wonder you want everybody under one rule... how would you co-exist with anybody? tribes were not as capable of self-sufficiency as we are today, because we have education and technology which hadn't even been conceived then. kings and nations fought to steal land, over politics, religion and money. if communities are not divided by land rights, governments and competition for money then it makes no sense for them to fight, they'd be wrecking their own streets, friends and commodities.

money only has to be something of perceived value, the whole idea of this change is that people do not all have to live under the same system. each community may allocate its own currency and you might have thousands of communities in each country, each person will have their own choice in which currencies they accept, therefore the money system is self regulating since a devalued currency can be refused as payment.

we have oil over here too.... but as far as i'm aware they don't make too many bentleys, porsches or ferraris in the middle east. hopefully we wouldn't be using oil for fuel anyway:D

how can you stick up for VP without understanding the basics of peaceful coexistence and mutual dependence? have you never run a business? or lived in the country?

as i already mentioned i don't have the answer all worked out, and haven't even bothered thinking about it much, this theory is simply the best option i have come up with over the last two years. i'm not an economist, there will be holes in it, but these ideas of small, co-dependant communities are already operating naturally within our society, we just need to take governance out of the frame and allow them to flourish.

[london_lad_84]

What you posted are your opinions which don't bother me at all. Watch the movie clip. Oh and if you feel that I am trying to degrade you then that's your opinion again. There is no 'your truth'. There is no 'your gravity' or 'your electricity' either.


Yes there is, aslong as i think it, it exists.

How about stop being an ignorant closeminded hater. You cant tell ME what MY limitations are, just like you or anyone cannot tell anyone else what their limitations are, we are infinite concsiousness and that is MY truth.

Thank you and good bye.

PS, your a delightful chap.

[elirien]

Yes there is, aslong as i think it, it exists.

How about stop being an ignorant closeminded hater. You cant tell ME what MY limitations are, just like you or anyone cannot tell anyone else what their limitations are, we are infinite concsiousness and that is MY truth.

Thank you and good bye.

PS, your a delightful chap.

Well if you think that way I respect that (not that I agree with it).

Try that 'my truth' philosophy the next time an apple falls from a tree. I sincerely hope you succeed in defying gravity. Perhaps I could learn from you how you did it.

I hope you will post some opinion based on fact the next time you post in this topic related to Chris White's analysis.

Cheers. Be good.

[london_lad_84]

Well if you think that way I respect that (not that I agree with it).

Try that 'my truth' philosophy the next time an apple falls from a tree. I sincerely hope you succeed in defying gravity. Perhaps I could learn from you how you did it.

I hope you will post some opinion based on fact the next time you post in this topic related to Chris White's analysis.

Cheers. Be good.


I didn't say i could stop gravity dont put words in my mouth!.. even though it is an ILLUSION, for how can it exist when love is the ONLY truth? Again, that is my truth.

Maybe i'll post on the other thing sometime.

I need some sleep. *yawn*

Peace be with you. :)

[romas]

ffs... no wonder you want everybody under one rule... how would you co-exist with anybody? tribes were not as capable of self-sufficiency as we are today, because we have education and technology which hadn't even been conceived then. kings and nations fought to steal land, over politics, religion and money. if communities are not divided by land rights, governments and competition for money then it makes no sense for them to fight, they'd be wrecking their own streets, friends and commodities.

money only has to be something of perceived value, the whole idea of this change is that people do not all have to live under the same system. each community may allocate its own currency and you might have thousands of communities in each country, each person will have their own choice in which currencies they accept, therefore the money system is self regulating since a devalued currency can be refused as payment.

we have oil over here too.... but as far as i'm aware they don't make too many bentleys, porsches or ferraris in the middle east. hopefully we wouldn't be using oil for fuel anyway:D

how can you stick up for VP without understanding the basics of peaceful coexistence and mutual dependence? have you never run a business? or lived in the country?

as i already mentioned i don't have the answer all worked out, and haven't even bothered thinking about it much, this theory is simply the best option i have come up with over the last two years. i'm not an economist, there will be holes in it, but these ideas of small, co-dependant communities are already operating naturally within our society, we just need to take governance out of the frame and allow them to flourish.


Well a) you(or me) don't have technology and b) you(or better, us) don't have education(it's a joke today, for specialized worker bees), I don't know where you live, maybe a really great place and nice community, but most suburbia now is pretty desolate, people don't know how to do basic things, especially in the west and then you say fantasies like people can survive better than old tribes, this is a joke, we die in the fucking woods if only had fur coat and a spear, you do realise most people have specilizations like accountant and they know jack shit about anything else living in big cities.

Yes maybe you can build a community yourself if your handy and of sound mind, but what about other "communities" who is going to travel all around the world building shit for others and taking care of it?

Let me tell you what kinda of an option it is, its an option for you and for me and for other nations who are not ruined YET. We could theoretically break all lands laws and take it for grabs(chaos and violence) then we build half arsed homes and start farming communities. degrade back a few houdred years and take a shot at not making another corporate market in the far future.

Anyways this is pointless fantasy, you know as well as I do, NWO is going to happen, because to many people are seeing to many demons everywhere and live in lalaland.

[pdcdp]

Well a) you(or me) don't have technology and b) you(or better, us) don't have education(it's a joke today, for specialized worker bees), I don't know where you live, maybe a really great place and nice community, but most suburbia now is pretty desolate, people don't know how to do basic things, especially in the west and then you say fantasies like people can survive better than old tribes, this is a joke, we die in the fucking woods if only had fur coat and a spear, you do realise most people have specilizations like accountant and they know jack shit about anything else living in big cities.

Yes maybe you can build a community yourself if your handy and of sound mind, but what about other "communities" who is going to travel all around the world building shit for others and taking care of it?

Let me tell you what kinda of an option it is, its an option for you and for me and for other nations who are not ruined YET. We could theoretically break all lands laws and take it for grabs(chaos and violence) then we build half arsed homes and start farming communities. degrade back a few houdred years and take a shot at not making another corporate market in the far future.

Anyways this is pointless fantasy, you know as well as I do, NWO is going to happen, because to many people are seeing to many demons everywhere and live in lalaland.

this is pointless, you're not looking for a positive shift towards freedom on this planet, you're clearly misinterpreting, or just misunderstanding my words and are very possibly incapable of rational, constructive and logical discussion.

[romas]

I've reviewed: http://nowheretorun.podomatic.com/

There are many inaccuracies such as N. Sarcozy is not president of EU, he is president of France.

Skewed facts about RFID chips, J. Fresco did not imply the need for mandatory implants, he urged free will of all individuals. However we are already using technology to fix lost sight, lost limbs and even internal organs, this guys is pretty damn outdated and smell with dogmatic agenda.

High focus on "patriotism" through various arguments.

[clozaril]

I've reviewed: http://nowheretorun.podomatic.com/

There are many inaccuracies such as N. Sarcozy is not president of EU, he is president of France.

Skewed facts about RFID chips, J. Fresco did not imply the need for mandatory implants, he urged free will of all individuals. However we are already using technology to fix lost sight, lost limbs and even internal organs, this guys is pretty damn outdated and smell with dogmatic agenda.

High focus on "patriotism" through various arguments.


sarcozy is the president of the european council they pass it around every year although this is different to president of the eu which is not even a role yet

[mikethepunk]

Everyone is taking this movie out of context and it is really, really disturbing.
Obviously most are not ready for any kind of world but the one we are in and the one the NWO want because when ever someone comes up with any kind of solution it is bashed relentlessly.

UNTIL YOU HAVE RESEARCHED THE TRUTH FOR LONGER THAN A FEW YEARS---YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO THINK U KNOW IT ALL.

THE IMMATURITY OF THE TRUTH MOVEMENT IS BAFFLING.

GENERATION D HAS BEEN BRAINWASHED WITH GARBAGE. I AM SO GLAD I AM NOT A PART OF IT.

[clozaril]

whats generation d ?

i thought we were still on generation x ?

[thirdwave]

I've reviewed: http://nowheretorun.podomatic.com/

There are many inaccuracies such as N. Sarcozy is not president of EU, he is president of France.

Skewed facts about RFID chips, J. Fresco did not imply the need for mandatory implants, he urged free will of all individuals. However we are already using technology to fix lost sight, lost limbs and even internal organs, this guys is pretty damn outdated and smell with dogmatic agenda.

High focus on "patriotism" through various arguments.

for all the people he accuses and all the tripe he spreads around the internet I think its him who should be kept an eye on... especially with a name like "No where to run" ....

when i was younger there was a childish saying used when someone complained about a fart... "he who smelt it dealt it"

the guy is IMO either a bit stupid and has a lack of understanding in many airiers... or is just out to cause shit.... and I don't care if he acts like "a nice guy".... I judge the tree by its fruit.

[clozaril]

when i was younger there was a childish saying used when someone complained about a fart... "he who smelt it dealt it"

.


we had a counter for that 'he who said the rhyme did the crime' :D

ok i'll keep out of this :)

[steevo]

Does this relate to the movie "Zeitgeist" ? :- :confused:

Bill Clinton at Zeitgeist '07 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=43sUEFcD4Ro)

[chris]

we had a counter for that 'he who said the rhyme did the crime' :d

ok i'll keep out of this :)

lol!!!

[chris]

for all the people he accuses and all the tripe he spreads around the internet I think its him who should be kept an eye on... especially with a name like "No where to run" ....

when i was younger there was a childish saying used when someone complained about a fart... "he who smelt it dealt it"

the guy is IMO either a bit stupid and has a lack of understanding in many airiers... or is just out to cause shit.... and I don't care if he acts like "a nice guy".... I judge the tree by its fruit.

Although I don't like a lot of what NTR does, this review is very good.

Straight after Zeitgeist was released, many of us individually came up with these points indedendant of each other...Are we all wrong? Not that Tsarion stuff, that's pretty irrelevant...

[dangermouse]

Does this relate to the movie "Zeitgeist" ? :- :confused:

Bill Clinton at Zeitgeist '07 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=43sUEFcD4Ro)

no .. i think its political convention ...:D

[steevo]

no .. i think its political convention ...:D

So it's not a "movement" that was created by the Zeitgeist movie ? It just happens to have the same name. ok. Cheers DM :)
(I had heard a while back the the Zeigeist movie was creating movements all around the world, that's all).

[dangermouse]

Well i couldn't imagine a full crowd of zeitgeist fans clapping to bill clinton :p

[steevo]

Well i couldn't imagine a full crowd of zeitgeist fans clapping to bill clinton :p

I dont know.

[thirdwave]

we had a counter for that 'he who said the rhyme did the crime' :D

ok i'll keep out of this :)

lol, i think i heard that one before as well ..

[thirdwave]

Although I don't like a lot of what NTR does, this review is very good.

Straight after Zeitgeist was released, many of us individually came up with these points indedendant of each other...Are we all wrong? Not that Tsarion stuff, that's pretty irrelevant...

my problem with his stuff is he does not debunk as such.. he just raises questions.. or alternative belifes... which is fine.. but what makes his so much more raightious than anyone elses enough for him to attack them?

why not just promote his own works?.. if they are so liberating and true... why focus on debunking pretty much everything thats out there rather than putting forward his own "vital" info....

the reason is, is because he has none... he just try's to smear others works and make everything as unclear as possible other than Jesus christ is the only truth.

He does not even debunk... he imply's anything he thinks is not true, is the enemy... and puts alot of time and effort into doing so, which is quite telling when he has no real evidence what's so ever.

Its like that image of the hand sigh making a triangle.... with the sun in it..

I mean, how many people who know what's going down are going to look at that knowing full well what image it is showing and what it is implying (sun worship) .. in the right context...

yet here is NWTR making out he has discovered some secret sigh that the movie is made by the illuminati.... and you get some unsure people who are new to this stuff who swallow it.

not exactly secret is it?... it was a symbol very relevant to the moive and I dont know why numb skulls like NWTR feel the need to teach people to be afraid of the sun... because of a bunch of idiots fucking with it.

they guy needs to do some proper research before he plays the movements saviour...its cringe worthy IMO.

[thirdwave]

I dont know.

can you honestly say the neither movie has presented the elite in negative light?... If anything the first movie was quite daunting....

this has all come up for two reasons... 1, because of how it puts religion down (my fav part) .. and the other is because it has left a vision of the future with a possative slant...

but at not one point as it implied the elite are good people... not once!

i dont think the film makers can win anyway... if they are all doom and gloom thney are called fear mongerers put there to make people feel helpless... (much like AJ has been accused of) ... and if they put a gloss on something they are called detractions and misleader's....

so there will always be people knocking something..

[steevo]

can you honestly say the neither movie has presented the elite in negative light?... If anything the first movie was quite daunting....

this has all come up for two reasons... 1, because of how it puts religion down (my fav part) .. and the other is because it has left a vision of the future with a possative slant...

but at not one point as it implied the elite are good people... not once!

i dont think the film makers can win anyway... if they are all doom and gloom thney are called fear mongerers put there to make people feel helpless... (much like AJ has been accused of) ... and if they put a gloss on something they are called detractions and misleader's....

so there will always be people knocking something..

I would say that Peter Joseph wants to change from one system to another without the Elite being removed from power. That is exactly what is happening right now.
We have gotta remove the Illuminati BEFORE we can consider any other system, or else they will continue ruling into the next system too.

TW there is alot of good stuff in the movies, there is no doubting that. But when questioned by AJ on the REAL issues, Peter Joseph sounded like he thought the NWO was a good idea, and Iknow that you think the same thing cos you said it in the other thread. NWO is about control and ruling over people. I dont want that in my life so what do they do with me ?

[romas]

sarcozy is the president of the european council they pass it around every year although this is different to president of the eu which is not even a role yet


This is definately not the same, I think the closest for "chief" of EU you get now is probably José Manuel Barroso - President of the European Commission and a high degree mason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Manuel_Barroso
http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/president/index_en.htm

Or maybe Javier Solana, but not sure. I'm not into "official" politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Solana

[now here]

Everyone is taking this movie out of context and it is really, really disturbing.
Obviously most are not ready for any kind of world but the one we are in and the one the NWO want because when ever someone comes up with any kind of solution it is bashed relentlessly.

UNTIL YOU HAVE RESEARCHED THE TRUTH FOR LONGER THAN A FEW YEARS---YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO THINK U KNOW IT ALL.

THE IMMATURITY OF THE TRUTH MOVEMENT IS BAFFLING.

GENERATION D HAS BEEN BRAINWASHED WITH GARBAGE. I AM SO GLAD I AM NOT A PART OF IT.

Thank you!

[a fine naked fellow]

Resourced based economy

Not the abolishment, rather the availability

All of the arguments are tired and flawed and repetitive. I cant believe you pansies are this disgruntled
over the damn movie. You wouldn’t know freedom if it bit you in the ass. You head is so full of isms that
reason and logic is no longer recognized. Its not this, that or the other ism. Its common sense. Zeitgeist
addendum speaks of a resource based society/ world.

Resource based.

If you are going to do something the question is can you, is it possible. Can the thing be done.
Do we have the resources?

Not if can we make money/ profit off it.

They go direct to the (re)source of what is possible instead of dicking around with figures and papers.

It does not call for the abolishment of money or call for a society with credits or points or whatever.

But that if we have the resource, and we do, for every one to be housed, fed, clothed and educated
then there is no logical reason why they should go on wanting.


If you think we don’t have the resource for this I can only but gasp at the depth of your bigotry.

And since no one ever, ever, need be left out, for any reason whatsoever. And there is so much free energy
in abundance then there is no longer sufficient reason to pay for it.

Money that is Debt is no longer relevant.
If everyone has what they need then there is nor reason for a bloated few to have it all.
This would cause the class distinctions of power and control to crumble.
Politics and the smoke screen of what is politics is irrelevant.

2 + 2 = 4, you idiots.
If the freedom to say that is allowed then all else follows.

[danster82]

Why dont you focus on giving your own solutions rather than knocking everyone else's, So for example the answer to the financial system given by Zietgiest is all wrong simply because of some obscure relation to a lucis trust which sounds like Lucifer.. Ok great so now what is your solution? You just have a fearful reaction to everything, its almost identical to the fundamental religious reactions we have had to deal with for the last few thousands years now we have to deal with the new age fundamentalists that see a triangle in a documentary and so equate it with evil, maybe we should rein in the director of zietgiest and nail him to a cross?

[eyepod]

Why dont you focus on giving your own solutions rather than knocking everyone else's, So for example the answer to the financial system given by Zietgiest is all wrong simply because of some obscure relation to a lucis trust which sounds like Lucifer.. Ok great so now what is your solution? You just have a fearful reaction to everything, its almost identical to the fundamental religious reactions we have had to deal with for the last few thousands years now we have to deal with the new age fundamentalists that see a triangle in a documentary and so equate it with evil, maybe we should rein in the director of zietgiest and nail him to a cross?

Now if you had actually researched what you are talking about or even read or watched what the OP has you would know that the Lucis Trust was originally called the Lucifer Publishing Company instead of demonstrating that you don't know what you are talking about. They changed the name from the Lucifer Publishing Company because it is more politically correct than naming you're company and NGO of the United Nations after what many would consider to be Satan or the Devil or whatever.

The connections between the Zeitgiest, the Lucifer Publishing Company (Lucis Trust), the United Nations, Freemasons, Theosophy are quite apparent if you look a little deeper but I guess you too wrapped up in pushing a film that offers no solutions to the problems it claims to highlight except promoting a communist utopia with 80+% of the population eradicated. Sounds like NWO heaven. If that's your idea of a solution - count me out thank you.

[chris]

To all those feeble minded ones too stupid to understand the Venus Project and dare critique it. Let me explain exactly how it will work and how it will be implemented...

People will live in cities like these...

http://www.moka-express.ch/dotclear/images/Crosslab/venus-project21.jpg

And be served by robots like these...

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/images/jun08/images/bionicslide10b.jpg

You will be required to chip in and do a little bit of work maintaining the robot overlords. But it will be fun! Here's the bus to work...

http://www.moviesnobs.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/batman-roller-coaster.jpg

We will all have the perfect partner...

http://thecia.com.au/reviews/s/images/stepford-wives-0.jpg

And the perfect educational system...

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/060609/14578__clockwork_l.jpg

And if you not down with that. We will hunt you down...You god damn selfish capitalist bastards.

http://goldendome.org/EvolutionOfMan/Terminator/t1.jpg

[romas]

You think you're so smart posting hollywood pictures and call people "feeble minded" lol

[chris]

You think you're so smart posting hollywood pictures and call people "feeble minded" lol

I was referring to all that dare oppose the Venus Project feeble minded. They are selfish, greedy, capitalists, too stupid to understand the Venus Project.

They need re-education.
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6203/mindcontrolsmallversion.jpg (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mindcontrolsmallversion.jpg)
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/mindcontrolsmallversion.jpg/1/w665.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img139/mindcontrolsmallversion.jpg/1/)

[romas]

:rolleyes: What's up with all this negativity?

[terranigma]

@chris:

I for one understood your posts and enjoyed them ;)

Edit: spelling

[chris]

:rolleyes: What's up with all this negativity?

Negativity is just as important as positivity. It brings balance...

If there's a stupid idea, it's much better to be negative about it than euphamistic.

I just chose to parody the Venus Projects main arguments i.e. the appeal to fantasy, with the ultimate best scenario painted as realistic. And also the mocking overtones advocates give when dismissing the VP critiques as stupid and greedy.

Any philosophy that needs a re-education camp rather soley winning people over through debate are obviously not putting across a good case.

[truthseekeruk]

I for one was inspired by the movie Zeigiest addendum. For the first time ever I actually saw a physical representation of the way forward and it gives me great hope for the future of humankind.

I also listened to Alex Jones interviewing Peter Joseph, this only re-affirmed to me that Peter Joseph is a great visionary.

There is so much negativity surrounding the truth movement, and this only helps strengthen the elite's power over us by creating fear.

With knowledge comes responsibility. You can wake someone up to the truth of the matrix but its not right leaving them in a negative and fear based reality. You absolutely need to give them hope too. This is what Peter Joseph does. To me the whole venus project was a representation of ascension.

There are far too many truthers who are living in fear and suspicion, imagining the NWO are behind absolutely everything, even if it appears positive.

We absolutely need to distinguish the voice of the ego from the voice of our higher selves. This is what Zeigiest talks about. We are given absolute free will to choose between love and fear. Knowing about the matrix is just one part of it, the next step is to develop our conscisouness and learn to recognise the difference between the ego and the soul. Once you learn to listen you begin to realise that the truth has a higher frequency and your inner guidance aligns, some would call it intuition but you know because it feels right :D.

There other forces at work aside from the NWO, forces that are coming from creation itself. Learn to listen to your heart and a whole world of hope opens up to you. The need to try to analyse or trust what anyone else is saying becomes mute or irrelvant because the only person you need to put your trust in is YOU.

I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality. That is why right, temporarily defeated, is stronger than evil triumphant.

Martin Luther King

Unconditional Love to all

[now here]

Now if you had actually researched what you are talking about or even read or watched what the OP has you would know that the Lucis Trust was originally called the Lucifer Publishing Company instead of demonstrating that you don't know what you are talking about. They changed the name from the Lucifer Publishing Company because it is more politically correct than naming you're company and NGO of the United Nations after what many would consider to be Satan or the Devil or whatever.

The connections between the Zeitgiest, the Lucifer Publishing Company (Lucis Trust), the United Nations, Freemasons, Theosophy are quite apparent if you look a little deeper but I guess you too wrapped up in pushing a film that offers no solutions to the problems it claims to highlight except promoting a communist utopia with 80+% of the population eradicated. Sounds like NWO heaven. If that's your idea of a solution - count me out thank you.

What's so bad about theosophy anyway?

[romas]

Negativity is just as important as positivity. It brings balance...

If there's a stupid idea, it's much better to be negative about it than euphamistic.

I just chose to parody the Venus Projects main arguments i.e. the appeal to fantasy, with the ultimate best scenario painted as realistic. And also the mocking overtones advocates give when dismissing the VP critiques as stupid and greedy.

Any philosophy that needs a re-education camp rather soley winning people over through debate are obviously not putting across a good case.




Sure whatever you say sensei :p everything everywhere made by man is/was produce of mans fantasy.

There is always a motive and motive in this situation stems from few factors, religious beliefs, personal economic loss and fear of misused power(psychological individualism, lack of understanding of unity and interconnectivity of all biological beings of this planet).

All of these three factors lead to inevitable catastrophe as of now all three factors are active and we're like a ticking bomb, it will get worse and worse.

You don't like re-education that's ok, you think current mass education is great, but debate is always on and so far I haven't seen anyone make a slightest logical win over anything proposed in Venus Project or even Zeitgeist. All I see are patchworks for current system/society that's just prolonging the inevitable.

[danster82]

Now if you had actually researched what you are talking about or even read or watched what the OP has you would know that the Lucis Trust was originally called the Lucifer Publishing Company instead of demonstrating that you don't know what you are talking about. They changed the name from the Lucifer Publishing Company because it is more politically correct than naming you're company and NGO of the United Nations after what many would consider to be Satan or the Devil or whatever.

The connections between the Zeitgiest, the Lucifer Publishing Company (Lucis Trust), the United Nations, Freemasons, Theosophy are quite apparent if you look a little deeper but I guess you too wrapped up in pushing a film that offers no solutions to the problems it claims to highlight except promoting a communist utopia with 80+% of the population eradicated. Sounds like NWO heaven. If that's your idea of a solution - count me out thank you.

I did know that but I am pointing out somthing all together different to you as you are simply making judgement based on conditioning and not on truth, I know what zietgiest said about the financial system was correct because I know about the financial system and so if its related to freemasonary that means nothing to me im not going to fall into a fear based reaction and reject the information because of it instead I acept or reject the information based on my own knowledge of the subject. Your arguments mean nothing, talk to me about your own solutions or dont bother at all keep your anxiety to yourself. You probably couldnt even tell me why Freemasonry is an evil thing accept for the fact youve watched a few videos that said its evil.

as the post above said "What's so bad about theosophy anyway?" and thats exactly it you are not an expert in the field you havent interviewed or investigated theosophy so dont give us your sweeping statements Mr fundamental new age guru!

[chris]

Sure whatever you say sensei :p everything everywhere made by man is/was produce of mans fantasy.

But you take the word 'fantasy' I used out of context. I was using it in the sense that the venus project spends most of it's time on thinking about it's best case scenario and wanting to avoid the worst case scenario.

It's like I write one thing and you answer me as though I've made completely different points.

You don't like re-education that's ok, you think current mass education is great,

Again I critique the Venus Projects disturbing statements about 're-education' and you take that as a sign that I think the current mass education is 'great,' where did I ever say that?

The only way I believe a mass group of people can be educated is through learning and then debate. If one person can convey great logic, then there would be a natural 're-education' through others joining that cause out of their own free will...However the Venus Project seems to think they are the only ones with the valid opinion and others need to be converted through means other than sound debate.

but debate is always on and so far I haven't seen anyone make a slightest logical win over anything proposed in Venus Project or even Zeitgeist.

Yes but the true believer will not see a 'logical win.' However, it's good to debate them still to both throw up each persons logic and have others who are willing to learn create their own opinion on the subject with the help of both sides of the argument.

1. The VP is authoritarian
2. A resource economy is every bit a monetary economy
3. It's impossible to make everyone completely equal, a hierarchy will always emerge

Those are just a few very basic reasons why I think the VP is full of shit.

[chris]

To the mod that just moved this thread. Why don't you wait until the thread dies before you move posts?

[nessa felagund]

This is where recommended videos go. That's why we have this section. Why don't you start your threads in the proper place, then I don't have to move them! :D:p

[chris]

This is where recommended videos go. That's why we have this section. Why don't you start your threads in the proper place, then I don't have to move them! :D:p

Hey Nessa...

Although I do agree with the literal definition. I think realistically people post them on general chatter for a reason. A quick glance at the general chat and I quickly saw the top 5 threads would easily be better suited to other forums.

It seems that the only ones which don't belong in other forums would be the more stupid posts and also the more personal posts, still these make only a tiny portion of general chat.

Believe me, I'm not asking for all posts that don't belong in General Chat to be moved. But perhaps before moving a thread it would be better to move them when they get on page 5 or something.

[w1nstonsm1th84]

...perhaps before moving a thread it would be better to move them when they get on page 5 or something.

This thread was started on 13th October 2008, so it's no longer 'prime time'. :)

[romas]

But you take the word 'fantasy' I used out of context. I was using it in the sense that the venus project spends most of it's time on thinking about it's best case scenario and wanting to avoid the worst case scenario.

It's like I write one thing and you answer me as though I've made completely different points.


It's a method of inquiry or dialectic if you will, in response to your adjusted statement I'd have to agree, but every single proposition relies on hope of the best result, nothing is fool proof, fools are just to inventive ;)



Again I critique the Venus Projects disturbing statements about 're-education' and you take that as a sign that I think the current mass education is 'great,' where did I ever say that?

The only way I believe a mass group of people can be educated is through learning and then debate. If one person can convey great logic, then there would be a natural 're-education' through others joining that cause out of their own free will...However the Venus Project seems to think they are the only ones with the valid opinion and others need to be converted through means other than sound debate.



Again, vague statements such as "re-education", can easily be taken out of context. The things you mentioned are also part of re-education - learning and debate, I haven't seen this refuted by J. Fresco in fact if you listen to him he is a great debater.

Sitting through D. Ickes full lecture for some people could be considered as major re-education.




Yes but the true believer will not see a 'logical win.' However, it's good to debate them still to both throw up each persons logic and have others who are willing to learn create their own opinion on the subject with the help of both sides of the argument.

1. The VP is authoritarian
2. A resource economy is every bit a monetary economy
3. It's impossible to make everyone completely equal, a hierarchy will always emerge

Those are just a few very basic reasons why I think the VP is full of shit.


1. Everything about your or mine or anyones life is authoritarian, you're not born all knowing and all wise(well you are, but not in a physical sense).
Until every single man and woman are able to collect critical amount of knowledge about everything relevant of their time and space, there will always be an authoritarian system. Now the issue here is weather "the big brother" becomes tyrant or remains a care taker, just basic government issues that we have today.

2. Resources economy is not the same as finance capitalism though, money makes money is illogical, unless you bind humans as expendable resources.
In VP resource economy there is no such thing as perpetual growth based on speculation and demand for profit, people are not resources to be traded.

3. You don't have to make everyone equal, it's not the point, equal rights did not make people equal, it was just means of coexistence. Your problem is you identify your un-equality based on your material status.

[beatiful]

dont no if any1 has already said this cos i havent read all the posts, but even b4 i "woke up", i used to think why the hell isnt the technology that we have used for the uplifting of mankind?
look at gm food, in the right hands that could feed so many starving people, similarly we dont need oil, we can run stuf off water/hydrogen...all big powerstations all start their generation of power with producing steam to turn turbines? i really do think that if ppl woke up, were educated, and saw things for how they really are, we could actually live off the land...renewable energy resources i belive to be alot more effecient at harboring the worlds energy then ppl the ppl in power let on...furthermore ppl would say it wouldnt work becos all this research and contruction work (that would take place to make a Utopia) would cost money, only reason we pay for things is cos ppl tell us to pay...and becos like Icke has said is becos the ppl at the top demand money and so all the ppl going down the pyramid demand money to cover the cost....in short, as i am rambling lol, i think the Earth could be a Utopia or not far from it, and that we could use technology to uplift, advance and free humanity, but of course, it aint gonna happen cos the Illuminati needs to be killed b4 hand lol

[chris]

Now the issue here is weather "the big brother"becomes tyrant or remains a care taker, just basic government issues that we have today.

But unfortunatly the VP will have sections of very great power...I.e. The sector which works out and allocates the 'resources' (money)...

2. Resources economy is not the same as finance capitalism though,

And Finance Capitalism is not the same as a truly free market...The VP might sound better than Finance Capitalism but it still sounds extremely bad...

In VP resource economy there is no such thing as perpetual growth based on speculation and demand for profit, people are not resources to be traded.

But in a truly free world, there would also be no limited liability corporation. No Milton Friedman crazy trading and especially, no derivatives. This would end all the bad things you hate about capitalism, without having to go way overboard with the solutions. Potentially there could be those things but they would be risky investments because you would be liable for anything that occurs within that company when you invest in it.

Full liability = End of preditor capitialism.

[romas]

Yes but if we go from current system to "open market" nothing would change, the ideology of material supremacy would still presist, money as main tool and enforcer will eventually help those of selfish programming to rebuild the old system. So called "secret societies" is a product of opposition to "public" society.

Open market is an individualistic enterprise and today we are not individual, nor fully sovereign, simply because we are specialized to do certain things and trade our labor for bits and peaces of other peoples labor.

Hence the much needed "re-education" would still be vital to an open market system only to make it work instead of resorting back to old master-slave system.

A global space program or a global education would be impossible under a free market individualistic system. A simple and probably primary global mission would be to make sure no one on this planet is starving, this is a global task and a huge undertaking, with individual goals being the primary opposition. As some one gains food and water, some one loses extra land and resources they've been hogging for their own genetic lineage.

[chris]

Okay then...Re-educate me...

How are you going to teach me to let go of the 'ideology of material supremacy?'

Even though I'm not into material things, I'm just against others stealing my stuff and telling me to be renounced...However if the VP is going to work, you will have to show a good example of how you will wean people away from material goods.

How will you do it? Will you debate using yogic philosophies about austerities? Will you stick them infront of flashing screens? Electro-shock?

Please eleborate more on how you will 're-educate' because if your being fuzzy on this then don't blame us for misconstuing your position.

[romas]

I hope you're being sarcastic, it isnt something you just write down off top of your head, the way I see it, it should sprout from the inner undirstanding and realization if portion of population large enough can agree to work in certain way it will be a natural example.

D. Ickes work is really good inspirational start, there is plenty of material, every religion today has secret esoteric truths that aren't out there in public, because those truths would do away with organised religion itself and popular politics etc.

Though yeah it's sort of a dreamy-fantasy, in typical scenario it takes a catastrophe to shake up dumbed down and dosile population to see what really matters.

[chris]

I hope you're being sarcastic, it isnt something you just write down off top of your head, the way I see it, it should sprout from the inner undirstanding and realization if portion of population large enough can agree to work in certain way it will be a natural example.

D. Ickes work is really good inspirational start, there is plenty of material, every religion today has secret esoteric truths that aren't out there in public, because those truths would do away with organised religion itself and popular politics etc.

Though yeah it's sort of a dreamy-fantasy, in typical scenario it takes a catastrophe to shake up dumbed down and dosile population to see what really matters.

So people will one day spontaniously ask for the venus project (when they are intelligent enough)...

[fedestag80]

ciao a tutti mi chiamo federico sono italiano e faccio parte del movimento zeitgeist italia . ho dato un occhiata qua ed ho notato come potevo immaginare deviazioni di pensiero per quanto riguarda l obbiettivo del movimento e la sostenibilità del progetto.. per avere più chiara la situazione leggete qua a questo link per chi non è italiano può avvalersi del traduttore diretto con google... http://www.zeitgeistitalia.org/obiettivo ... detto da me in poche parole strizzate , cerchiamo di risvegliare la coscienza globale schiavizzata dalle istituzioni di un potere patriarcale, e il progetto venus (non ha niente a che vedere con lucifero satana e tutte quelle ideologie istituzionali patriarcali!!!) è una delle soluzioni per quanto riguarda la nostra evoluzione tecnologica rispettosa dei nostri cicli vitali della nostra dea madre la natura! più gratificante e coscienziosa per tutta l umanità...

[lyricusmagna]

BS. I've yet to hear how the Venus Project will implement it's goals...That's my whole critique. I certainly don't want to live in that socialist nightmare. So what are they going to do with people like me?

Yeah, you are better off in this system, right?

I want to live out in nature and only make enough to get by and use coverup technologies for myself and my own little community. There's no way I'm going to be a technician in that weird unnatural totalitarian state.

lol

Somebody has misinterpreted the concepts of the Venus Project I see ...

[ambler1980]

everyone's views on how to fix society, whether it's the venus project, or barter system, or whatever is based in this firewalled off 5-sense prison reality they have us in...none of these solutions will work until the control structure has fallen. period. at that point there will be no argument as to which way is better because the paradigm will be completely different...it will become extremely obvious what needs to be done...

all the solutions are coming from perceived separation when such thing does not exist, it's an illusion of the 5 senses...fear and scarcity are based around it, "i don't have, this is separate, i am me, you are you", that's a paradigm right now in this density, of separation, apartness, lack, scarcity, polarity...the control structure is falling because the lessons that needed to be learned are being learned as people are waking up....once a paradigm shift happens, all previous cognition becomes irrelevant, because you're capable of things you previously weren't...aka, your relationship to the atoms and particles around you (perceived solidity) will be different because you will see that there is no difference between you and them, therefore you'll be able to interact with and manipulate them at will...life will be like a lego set, literally, think of that scene in The Matrix where there girl bends the spoon and explains that it's not the spoon bending, it's yourself realizing there is no spoon, that's an illusion of separation...once Neo realized this, he was no longer at the mercy of the 5-sense prison reality...it's literally a firewalled prison we live in, as we are not receiving the photons from the sun in the correct manner, so our literal cognitive perception of reality is extremely limited.

arguing about what needs to be done, what new system we need in place...it's like a monkey in a zoo trying to conceive of how to build a better cage for himself...

this thread and the ideas in it...it's like you guys are trying to build a sand castle under water.