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cleft_asunder
05-10-2008, 07:27 AM
I'm in a situation right now which I call spiritual limbo. It is a situation that is between a rock and a hard place. I know exactly what to do in order to rediscover enlightenment, but the desire is seldom there. Half of me wants enlightenment because I know from experience it is the ultimate perspective through which life should be lived. It really is the end of suffering. Yet the other half wants to go outward into the world, which is the strengthening of the ego. And who is that other self? Well it's the ego itself. One day I want to embrace all humanity without judgement and just love them for who they are, while the next minute I feel superior to everone else and I hate them all. I tell you with great conviction that you cannot surrender to oneness --the death before death-- when you live your life through the ego.

In order to rediscover your true self, there must be a balance of a deep desire for that ultimate state, and also a deep un-concern and indifference towards achieving it. This is paradoxically true. Most people on the quest for enlightenment (which implies external searching) have a deep desire, but that is what holds them back. You cannot just have a deep desire because it will lead you to frustration and in the worst case scenario, suicide. And I have read that many Buddhists commit suicide. Conversely, how can you make progress in rediscoverning your true self if you are filled mostly with indifference or if you are happy to just be an individual? Myself, I am in this boat. I get bursts of wanting enlightenment passionately but with long periods of indifference and therefore egoic outward movements. Instead, you must have an indifference and carefree attitude as the foundation.

But back to the situation regarding the outward and the inward movement. The worst situation you can be in spiritually is to want both enlightenment AND the ego at the same time, because then you get neither. And I assure you I have neither. On one hand, I want to just shutup and surrender to The All, but then my ego takes over again and I just want to be individualistic again.

The outward movement will gain you the ego, but the nature of the ego is an insatiable thirst for more, and a discontentment for what is. When the ego is strengthened, the spirit is further obscured and there is less-and-less of a connection to people and The All. An example of an individual who has moved outwardly and has lost connection to the spirit is someone who has a lot of material wealth and possessions and a beautiful wife but who is deeply unhappy, depressed, and hates others. He looks for and finds only flaws and is very individualistic. They find answers through the intellect rather than from inside.

The inward movement is the movement towards spirit (not soul) and can and should be called spirituallity. It results in the deminishing of the ego until, in the end, you are not compulsively drawn to it's superficial charm. Some say that the ego is destroyed when one is living enlightenment. Regardless of the details, the nature of the inward movement is peace, contentment, happiness, joy, bliss for NO external reason. You are peace, contentment, happiness, joy and bliss, while the ego by itself is darkness. It is not a real thing, but rather the absence of enlightenment. An example of an individual who is enlightened is someone who listens with full attentiveness and never feels the inclination to talk. He is content no matter where he is, as opposed to the majority of people who, when they are here, want to be there, and when they are there, want to be here. They are empty canvases who receive the paint of each new moment with open arms --always empty and always full. Their love is not emotional but rather ultimate therefore non-dualistic, and their language is silence and their silence is wisdom.

But do not misunderstand me: It is true you cannot have the ego and the spirit at the same time, but who said you can't move inwardly AND outwardly at the same time? That is to say, who said you have to move outwardly through the ego? When you stop moving towards the ego, you get both the inward and outward movement, while with the ego you only get the outward.

drael
05-10-2008, 09:35 AM
Dont be so hard on yourself. Enlightenment can be like threading a needle, hard and requiring patience. Self-love can also heal past hurts, so sometimes self-nurturing is very good. For example, maybe ur very shy as a person. Playing brash and bold for awhile can help one find the balance.

I beleive desire always leads us to karma or learning anyways. Sorta all roads lead to rome, right? Do want ur soul sings, and just love urself as u are. U will find ur way, in the right timing when ur able. All is as it should be :)

Its hard not to be on the right path, even if its a wiggly one, when one is aware of these things. I know, im still not _living_ enlightenment. But its always calling me, the joy and the wisdom. Cant be got away from really!

Peace brother, and good pathfinding!

amethyst
05-10-2008, 01:49 PM
I agree with what Drael said. Don't be so hard on yourself.

Go back to simplicity.

Look at life thru the eyes of a child.

Go back to the wonder of it all. You find joy in the smallest, simple little things.

Look at bugs. Look at animals. Play with animals. Smell the grass. Taste the grass.

Feel. How often do we do that? Just really feel what we are feeling deep inside?

Recapture the essence of life........and reconnect to creation.

You'll find the joy then :)

cleft_asunder
05-10-2008, 06:02 PM
Thanks.

shankara
07-10-2008, 03:43 AM
You're a non-dualist, right? Why then is there such a schism in your mind between ego and spirit? If all is one, then what is ego? In the infinite possibility of the All, cannot both unity and individualization within that unity coexist? Why must God conform to our ideas of what should be? From a message I wrote in another thread:

So why awaken at all? What is awakening? Who is this "you" you are speaking too? Who profits by my awakening? Surely it is not the All, not the Supreme Self, because that is always free, pure, still, and awake. Not the world, or the rest of humanity (which is also the All), for that remains in ignorance and illusion, until they have their own awakening. You claim that the Absolute is all that I am, with no-individual personhood (not a someone, no one here to awaken), but when I do awaken, the only effect is on "me" the individual soul. The fact that one individual has awakened doesn't mean that the world has awakened. It is me as an individual soul that realizes it's nature and escapes illusion.

Are you are telling me that the highest goal for me, the non-entity, (not a someone, or a personality) to pursue is the escape of myself, an illusory non-existent individual soul, from an illusory non-existent bondage in an illusory non-existent world?

The Absolute manifests Itself in many forms. We can accept the multiplicity and individuality of each of those manifestations while also accepting the unity of That which is manifested.

And another thread:

I agree that illusion exists, and is the delusion of separation and limitation, but also know that necessarily, it must be real. It is necessary because if God/Oneness/Absolute Being is infinite and all that is ("One without a second") the substance of illusion must also be God, yet the illusion is that we misinterpret what it is (God) as something limited (the world and limited/separate personalities). True non-dualism cannot have an eternal division between reality and maya; illusion must be a manifestation of reality/God, by choice, for the purpose of some higher good, otherwise illusion would be somehow imposing it's will on an infinite, omnipotent God (which includes/is us) that doesn't want to experience it. All life experience, including illusion and suffering, must be experienced in the larger sense as joyous.

You sound a lot like I did about a year or so ago. Part of me wanted individualization, and part of me wanted enlightenment, and based on everything I had learned up until that point, there was no reconciliation between the two. This caused me at one point to actually lose the ability to function for a day or two until I just had to say to myself "I don't care!" and let it go for a while. Eventually I found the book in my signature, which really helped me see things more clearly.

Another good thing I've learned is that there really isn't anything I should be doing, and there isn't any other scenario that should be happening right now except what is. I used to get so upset with myself because I wasn't enlightened or hadn't written a book, but then I realized that it's the thinking that things should be different that takes you out of the present moment. Attachment to anything, even enlightenment, will bring you further from enlightenment. It's okay to have a preference for enlightenment, but to need it to make you happy or to validate yourself will not bring you what you want. I used to get mad at myself for having a particularly "egoistic" moment or day, or for having a meditation session filled with mind chatter, but once I started accepting myself in such states, knowing it was okay, that there was a reason for it all, and not fight it (though not revel in it either) those states became less frequent.

Everything already is perfect, just as it is. It's all One, it's all God. For me the practice of just being thankful for what is, to accept what is with unconditional love and gratitude, instead of worrying about what I think should be, has really helped me a lot.

haukipesukone
07-10-2008, 04:41 AM
Half of me wants enlightenment because I know from experience it is the ultimate perspective through which life should be lived. It really is the end of suffering. Yet the other half wants to go outward into the world, which is the strengthening of the ego. And who is that other self? Well it's the ego itself. One day I want to embrace all humanity without judgement and just love them for who they are, while the next minute I feel superior to everone else and I hate them all.

I feel the same way.

I don't know what to do with the desire for enlightenment (although it's not a word I'd use). What should I do about it? Read some books? That doesn't really enlighten me. Think or meditate what is real and what is not?

Yesterday I went for a walk in the park thinking how superficial everyone is here and how lonely I am with no-one to talk to about something that really matters. Then I ran into a guy who was probably from India, his accent was really hard to understand. He talked something about prostitutes. How they are cheaper in China than here in Hong Kong. He said when I am studying he is fucking...

I don't really get it. Why would anyone want to go to a prostitute? It's abuse toward the prostitute and yourself. Lonely as I am I'd never do something like that. People these days treat each other as playthings. If you use someone for sex it's just masturbation anyway. There's supposed to be love (or at least something close to it) and understanding, some connection other than flesh.

I don't know when I'm telling you this. Probably because I feel so cut off from anything spiritual being surrounded by such people. Although you could say I'm clearly more spiritual than others here, but it's not really a contest, is it?

amethyst
07-10-2008, 04:49 AM
Thanks.

Yer welcome :)

amethyst
07-10-2008, 04:52 AM
I feel the same way.

I don't know what to do with the desire for enlightenment (although it's not a word I'd use). What should I do about it? Read some books? That doesn't really enlighten me. Think or meditate what is real and what is not?

Yesterday I went for a walk in the park thinking how superficial everyone is here and how lonely I am with no-one to talk to about something that really matters. Then I ran into a guy who was probably from India, his accent was really hard to understand. He talked something about prostitutes. How they are cheaper in China than here in Hong Kong. He said when I am studying he is fucking...

I don't really get it. Why would anyone want to go to a prostitute? It's abuse toward the prostitute and yourself. Lonely as I am I'd never do something like that. People these days treat each other as playthings. If you use someone for sex it's just masturbation anyway. There's supposed to be love (or at least something close to it) and understanding, some connection other than flesh.

I don't know when I'm telling you this. Probably because I feel so cut off from anything spiritual being surrounded by such people. Although you could say I'm clearly more spiritual than others here, but it's not really a contest, is it?

No, it's not a contest. Your right. Understanding goes deeper than the flesh.

The world lies.

whiterain
07-10-2008, 08:48 PM
hope you find what youre after cleft. final fantasy 7 was the best game ive ever had the honour to own. pretty much gave up computer games after that. also will have been hugely influential in waking a few up im sure

fortysixandtwo
12-10-2008, 10:04 AM
Why would you want to be enlightened?

Attachment to anything, even enlightenment, will bring you further from enlightenment.

That's exactly it.

element
12-10-2008, 10:07 AM
Why would you want to be enlightened?



That's exactly it.

Why should anyone be apathetic?

It's good to strife for something.

shankara
12-10-2008, 12:55 PM
Why should anyone be apathetic?

It's good to strife for something.

It's fine to want it, just not to need it, or get upset with yourself or with your situation when you don't have what you want, but instead to say "Thank you for what is, exactly as it is" and be at peace and in gratitude regardless of what situation you find yourself in.

fortysixandtwo
12-10-2008, 02:25 PM
It's fine to want it, just not to need it, or get upset with yourself or with your situation when you don't have what you want, but instead to say "Thank you for what is, exactly as it is" and be at peace and in gratitude regardless of what situation you find yourself in.

Yeah that was kinda what I was getting at. Enlightenment is a paradox.

How can we strive for something that we have no conceptual idea of what it is?

In fact how do we know that we have to do anything to become enlightened? We can only "be", and maybe that's where Enlightenment is found. Maybe not... :p

tejas
12-10-2008, 03:53 PM
Good post cleft, im sure weve all been there

Im definately there,

I think what we need is an experience a continuous mode through which we percieve reality in where we are perfectly free happy and blissful wherever we are.

What is enlightenment anyway?