Depression and Spiritual Death

[espii]

Depression and Spiritual Death



I apologize for bringing this up again, i just feel that i didn't find the answers i was looking for
and i still need your feedback on this subject.

Ill try to keep this post short and to the point.


Imagine yourself being in a hard labor prison camp. Everyday you work long hard hours, have a couple of meals then sleep.
There are no form of entertainment, you get nothing in return for your work.
The First week you feel physical pain/discomfort and boredom.
The Second week that boredom turns to depression ( sinking feeling ).
The Third week the depression turns to major depression which leads to spiritual death.


"It is sufficient to have either of these symptoms in conjunction with five of a list of
other symptoms over a two-week period. These include:

* Feelings of overwhelming sadness and/or fear, or the seeming inability to feel emotion (emptiness).
* A decrease in the amount of interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, daily activities.
* Changing appetite and marked weight gain or loss.
* Disturbed sleep patterns, such as insomnia, loss of REM sleep, or excessive sleep (hypersomnia).
* Psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day.
* Fatigue, mental or physical, also loss of energy.
* Intense feelings of guilt, nervousness, helplessness, hopelessness, worthlessness, isolation/loneliness and/or anxiety.
* Trouble concentrating, keeping focus or making decisions or a generalized slowing and obtunding of cognition, including memory.
* Recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), desire to just "lie down and die" or "stop breathing", recurrent suicidal
ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide.
* Feeling and/or fear of being abandoned by those close to one."


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_depression


What happens if one lets himself go and gives in to the desire to "lie down and die" spiritually or "sink".


While not desiring a real physical or spiritual death,
is it possible to somehow "die" spiritually and come back to life from "the other side" ?




Thanks for looking.


Edit:

Lets try to look at it from another perspective.


Lets say im locked up in a prison cell, solitary confinement.
All im given is food and a bed to sleep in, nothing else.
After a while, emptiness starts to set in and i touch the void.
Severe depression follows and the start of spiritual death.

I don't meditate or bang my head against the wall, i don't resist it.

What happens when you choose to let emptiness and the void set in and take hold,
and don't resist spiritual death ?

[rossus]

you mean if it's possible that the part of a person that wants to love and be loved dies,
and when that's dead what remains is someone from the "darkside"?


i don't know all about it, but that's sort of how it goes i guess.
when an individual undergoes traumatic experiences it's possible that his "heart" becomes affraid and shrinks... to become a stone.

what is then left of the individual is someone who is very lost with no real capacity to feel happiness or love.
the closest thing to happiness or love for this person, is pleasure.
they become pleasure obsessed, because pleasure is the only thing that can make them forget their miserable state of being.


i have a friend who is lost like that... it's a very sad situation to be in.
i don't know if it's possible for his heart to become healthy again.


when a dog gets abused by his owner, he becomes aggressive for life.
and there's no way to learn him good behavior again... because the scar is very deep.

that's why most of the time, they give these kind of dogs a syringe to put him to sleep.
i don't know but... maybe for human beings, a syringe to put them to sleep is sometimes the best solution as well.

[Anders Lindman]

Depression is a dysfunction in the flow of energy. When there is no movement at all then that is death. Pure fear is like freezing energy and that looks similar to death, but it isn't. Within the apparent non-moving field of fear there is tremendous energy. It's like the zero point field in physics which has enormous amounts of energy even at absolute zero temperature.

The field of fear has to be softened up to make use of the energy it contains. This energy will then cut through suffering like a laser sword cutting through butter.

[truthcommission]

What happens if one lets himself go and gives in to the desire to "lie down and die" spiritually or "sink"...
These hypothetical questions are a complete waste of time.

Either shit or get off the pot.

[espii]

Lets try to look at it from another perspective.


Lets say im locked up in a prison cell, solitary confinement.
All im given is food and a bed to sleep in, nothing else.
After a while, emptiness starts to set in and i touch the void.
Severe depression follows and the start of spiritual death.

I don't meditate or bang my head against the wall, i don't resist it.

What happens when you choose to let emptiness and the void set in and take hold,
and don't resist spiritual death ?

[cheeb]

Sounds like clinical depression to me '
and you could be stuck with it
but dont worry '
you will often feel euphoric and special and set apart from other people
Im afraid its the price you pay for being awakened
All the important figures in history are like this
You may well be one of these people
Its a wave and you might be at the trough at the moment
but as sure as night follows day you will soon be at the crest
Try to stay there as long as possible
if you do this often enough the lows will slowley get less

[truthcommission]

Sounds like clinical depression to me '
and you could be stuck with it...
Are you qualified to make this diagnosis?

If not its best to keep to your opinion to yourself. I speak here from experience and how I dealt with bi-polar disorder and neurosis so I understand what espii is experiencing but he is the only person that can really help.

My friend what you are experiencing is a NORMAL reaction to a completely fucked up world. Psychologists will tell you you are suffering from any variety of mental abberations and psychotherapists will do their best to suppress these fully natural mental processes with medication.

Carl Jung said that neurosis is always a substitute for legitimate suffering and he was absolutely right.

Here is a video which may answer some questions...

Being Alone - Death of Illusions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZXGayXKx5s)

[auron]

A great book that goes into detail on how the mind works:

Transforming The Mind (http://www.badongo.net/file/2727479)

Lots of questions answered in it.

Auron :)

[truthcommission]

This is good Auron.

Labeling people or making premature diagnoses is in no way helpful.

[cheeb]

Are you qualified to make this diagnosis?

If not its best to keep to your opinion to yourself. I speak here from experience and how I dealt with bi-polar disorder and neurosis so I understand what espii is experiencing but he is the only person that can really help.

My friend what you are experiencing is a NORMAL reaction to a completely fucked up world. Psychologists will tell you you are suffering from any variety of mental abberations and psychotherapists will do their best to suppress these fully natural mental processes with medication.

Carl Jung said that neurosis is always a substitute for legitimate suffering and he was absolutely right.

Here is a video which may answer some questions...

Being Alone - Death of Illusions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZXGayXKx5s)

Yes i am qualified

Are you Qualified in psychologhy to cherry pick jung

bi polar is the new buzz word for depression
manic 'clinical or organic

a cure 'maybe 'probably more a suppresant of the symtoms

He may be suffering from an abnormal reaction to a normal world
Your diagnosis is less than professional

You would really have to ask him where his feelings of insecurity came from

Nature or nurture

hes posted on public domain so confidentiallity is not an issue
He probably wants to be cured rather than analysed

but he could be an attention seeker

Or a person who enjoys being a victim

See what he says about himself next time hes here

[espii]

Most people will by any means "resist" the void and spritiual death that comes from depression, what i would like to know is, what happens when one stops resisting, gives in, and lets the void and spiritiual death set in and take over ?

There must be somenone somewhere who must have experianced this or knows ?

[cheeb]

Most people will by any means "resist" the void and spritiual death that comes from depression, what i would like to know is, what happens when one stops resisting, gives in, and lets the void and spiritiual death set in and take over ?

There must be somenone somewhere who must have experianced this or knows ?

you tell us what you think happens

[Anders Lindman]

Lets try to look at it from another perspective.


Lets say im locked up in a prison cell, solitary confinement.
All im given is food and a bed to sleep in, nothing else.
After a while, emptiness starts to set in and i touch the void.
Severe depression follows and the start of spiritual death.

I don't meditate or bang my head against the wall, i don't resist it.

What happens when you choose to let emptiness and the void set in and take hold,
and don't resist spiritual death ?

I don't think there is such thing as a spiritual death where a person can let the ego die and then be spiritually "resurrected" or something like that. The ego is made up of a bunch of memories. To have the ego die would mean to have all those memories wiped out. Then you would become a mindless vegetable with no memories left.

On the other hand, changing belief systems and how to look and feel about the world and oneself is possible. But that is a process of change, not of death.

[zoloko]

I don't think there is such thing as a spiritual death where a person can let the ego die and then be spiritually "resurrected" or something like that. The ego is made up of a bunch of memories. To have the ego die would mean to have all those memories wiped out. Then you would become a mindless vegetable with no memories left.

On the other hand, changing belief systems and how to look and feel about the world and oneself is possible. But that is a process of change, not of death.
Firs time I remember feeling like that, I was 7 years old!!! It was around the time when I realised that we are beeing misslead, that money is manmade,that all our rules are bullshit and so on and so forth!!!

[truthcommission]

See what he says about himself next time hes hereFrom the information that espii has given I would say that this is something that many people experience. Of course I am not qualified but maybe that is a good thing. ;) I have no interest in hanging a label on him and categorizing it as 'this that or the other'.

I was diagnosed as being bi-polar and suffering from manic depression by some inept quack. I refused to be labeled as much as I refused to take their drugs to suppress what I believe is something that humans have been experiencing for a long time.

In the catholic tradition where I grew up priests would call this the dark night of the soul and try to suppress it in THEIR way which involved confessionals, guilt and atoning for sins supposedly committed.

Espii there is no such thing as spiritual death. You are confusing it with EGO death. You need to cross the void (or shadow self) to come to TRUE spiritual understanding.

[melbo]

I've been severely depressed in the past and wanted to die. You can recover, it can be a long slow climb though, or sometimes other people can 'save' you. I don't think you have a spiritual death, but if you die in that state of mind I believe it would be a lot more work/reincarnations to recover. That's just my feeling on the matter, I'm not qualified at all.

[ho1ogram]

Espii there is no such thing as spiritual death. You are confusing it with EGO death. You need to cross the void (or shadow self) to come to TRUE spiritual understanding.
I agree. Spirit (which is the the real 'you') cannot die. Your ego wants all of the attention and cries out with pain as you begin to realise that the world around you is bull shit. Go inside and feel yourself as spirit; endless, timeless, without dimension or limits... not as the memories that you associate with being espii.

The real you is eternal. The ego associates itself with the body and they are both temporary tools for experiencing this temporary world.

There is nothing wrong with what you are feeling. There is no purpose to life, it is just an experience and that is all. Right now you are having this experience, tomorrow you will have another experience. The ego looks for pourpose to justify it's existence. Spirit just is and doesn't give a shit because it is eternal and cannot die. It is the real you.

[espii]

I've been severely depressed in the past and wanted to die. You can recover, it can be a long slow climb though, or sometimes other people can 'save' you. I don't think you have a spiritual death, but if you die in that state of mind I believe it would be a lot more work/reincarnations to recover. That's just my feeling on the matter, I'm not qualified at all.

Maybe it's not a real spiritual death even tough it feels like it. Perhaps a better term to describe it would be "spiritual sinking" ?

Most people will fight and resist depression by any means for fear of sinking into the dark unknown depths, i personally am tired of fighting it, maybe i should just let go and "sink" hoping there's light at end of the pit ?

[ho1ogram]

Maybe it's not a real spiritual death even tough it feels like it. Perhaps a better term to describe it would be "spiritual sinking" ?

Most people will fight and resist depression by any means for fear of sinking into the dark unknown depths, i personally am tired of fighting it, maybe i should just let go and "sink" hoping there's light at end of the pit ?
Yes! It's an experience. Go with it, knowing it is simply an experience. It feels like the end of the world and that there is no hope but they are illusions of the mind.

[tru3]

He may be suffering from an abnormal reaction to a normal world
Your diagnosis is less than professional

or, he may be having a normal reaction to an abnormal world. ;)

The experience of the dark night is a depression that seems to be without cause - when you find everything that used to bring you contentment runs like sand through your fingers and you are surrounded by an impenetrable mist from which there is no escape -
when your mind turns against you and punishes your every positive move, crippling action, denying all happiness, purging all feeling but despair and exquisite mental agony. St John of the cross wrote from within the religious paradigm of his times, but the experiences he recounts are echoed by mystics and shamen throughout history - he bears witness to a transformative process that is the human equivalent of the cocooning of the caterpillar, the dark shell must grow and harden around the creature in order that the butterfly may be born. Today we are trying to eliminate this process but it seems the harder we try, the worse the afflications of mental illness seem to grow.

It doesn't matter whether you come from a religious or secular background - look beyond the words he uses, beyond the letter, to the spirit of what he is saying. You might feel uncomfortable with the medieval religious terminology but just keep in mind he is describing real human experiences, not a religious fantasy, and he has mastered the torment and entered into the light at the end of the tunnel. This daylight is also a real human experience, this ecstacy is also within you regardless of your beliefs. If you have been called to this task there is an end to it, there is a goal and a sublime and unutterable reward.

The universal key concepts that every mystic of every tradition attempts to convey are that of an absorption of the self in that which is infinitely greater than the self and at the same time, its very essence. A nurturing of the opening of our transcendence that allows this infinity, this sense of unity, to find a home within your heart. Inevitably the first stage of this process will create resistance from the finite, seperated ego and this is what creates the pain - as the light is increased your own darkness and isolation become ever more acute and apparent. Variations on this theme are found in every mystical tradition and if you can look beyond the words to the spirit of their holy writings you will come to grasp the underlying unity of every tradition.

Every person from every faith, agnostics, and atheists can explore these human truths and come to a better understanding of what they are going through and importantly - realise that they are not alone. So welcome to you whoever you are and wherever you have come from - I hope this forum can help shine a light for you in your darkness.

http://www.darknightofthesoul.org/

if there is such a thing called 'enlightenment', to me it is simply the dropping of illusion. ime, sometimes that hurts like hell.

why would that be? simply because as bad as one's life may have been in the past, one survived. one knows that one has survived; once the outmoded belief and behavior is dropped, who knows what will happen? it's scary.

i believe a person passes through various 'gates' of understanding and relating to the world, sort of like passing through 'the eye of the needle'. i interpret that passage as the necessity of dropping our baggage before we can grow. when this has happened to me, i have felt like a turtle without its shell.

[Anders Lindman]

Maybe it's not a real spiritual death even tough it feels like it. Perhaps a better term to describe it would be "spiritual sinking" ?

Most people will fight and resist depression by any means for fear of sinking into the dark unknown depths, i personally am tired of fighting it, maybe i should just let go and "sink" hoping there's light at end of the pit ?

It depends on what you mean by sinking. Depression causes destruction in regions of the brain, such as in the hippocampus. That makes the brain even less capable of dealing with the depression which creates a negative downward spiral of further depression and further destruction of brain tissue. If that is the kind of sinking you mean, then that is not a good thing.

[yinon]

I had to deal with really depressive people in the past few years. I have one girl in mind . She is doing really well today. In her childhood , she was repressed emotionally. They couldn't talk about their feelings at home. Rules were really rigid.Most of the family members have known episodic moment of depression in their life.I have another guy in mind who was really repressed and who became bi-polar. The stuff repressed for so long is now express through up and down. They are disconnected from their feelings because they got to survive in an artificial environnement. For reasons of survival they had to stop to connect their emotins because they couldn't find a place at home to heal them.
Right depression is only one side of the coin. Usually they are also manic in their personal way. (intellectual performance, sport, money , sexual obsessions)

How to get out of there? You must learn to identify what bugs you . Describe the emotion and transform it, but the main bug with bi-polar people is create because they cannot stop the emotional pendulum. They are running away from what they feel inside. They are afraid to connect the pain and solitude again, the one they felt in their childhood . They wrongly associated with their feelings that emotions were evil because disturbing for their parents.Often they were perfect kids without apparent bugs...Nobody have seen what was coming and later they gonna have to go through an overload of emotions. They behave like this to be loved but it's a front. Our system ask our kids to repress the way they feel and feed them with rational knowledge... Watch out...If you don't coach them through their up and down as kid, they gonna derail later.

Good luck

[yinon]

It's exactly what the new director at my kids school tries to do . Kids cannot play , the only focus is intellectual performance. Gosh! only one month left and we gonna be free from their lies.

Our system feed them with ritalin to not feel and not disturb. Computers isolate them. It becomes really hard for themselves to connect their inner being. We have to invest emotionnaly with them in loving them to pass this wave.

[tru3]

How to get out of there? You must learn to identify what bugs you . Describe the emotion and transform it, but the main bug with bi-polar people is create because they cannot stop the emotional pendulum. They are running away from what they feel inside. They are afraid to connect the pain and solitude again, the one they felt in their childhood . They wrongly associated with their feelings that emotions were evil because disturbing for their parents.Often they were perfect kids without apparent bugs...Nobody have seen what was coming and later they gonna have to go through an overload of emotions. They behave like this to be loved but it's a front. Our system ask our kids to repress the way they feel and feed them with rational knowledge... Watch out...If you don't coach them through their up and down as kid, they gonna derail later.

brilliant, yinon. well said. kids play their assigned role in the family dynamic. john bradshaw writes that a family is a connected system, and that a disturbance in one element of the system affects the system as a whole, and that the system has a permeable membrane around it as well.

The dysfunctional family system has a third boundary. This one exists as an invisible line around the whole family. I call it the cultural or subcultural boundary. Nationalities and religious affiliations are the strongest factors in this type of boundary. Italians, Greeks, Irishmen, etc. have their own special rules and 'vital lies'. Likewise with Pentecostalists, Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, Jews, etc. These subculture boundaries control the flow of information coming into and going out of the family.... These boundaries can contribute greatly to the family's level of dysfunctionality.

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my wife and i have an interior design firm. our clients are well-to-do but not wealthy, from professors and teachers, to small business owners, to engineers, to farmers. average bourgeois upper middle class, like us.

about half the families' kids are having substance abuse or "lack of ambition", as their parents put it (i suspect that kids today just have a more highly evolved sense of smell, as they can detect the faintest whiff of bullshit :D ).

i've gotten to know several of the mothers, and when they say junior went to 'treatment', i casually ask if the whole family is involved.

they looked shocked, which is precisely the essence of denial.

[truthcommission]

when they say junior went to 'treatment', i casually ask if the whole family is involved.

they looked shocked, which is precisely the essence of denial.
So true.

It reminds me of my own dysfunctional childhood. I grew up with a really abusive father and a mother who lived in denial. My father would not just beat the living crap out of us but would torture us physically and psychologically.

When my mother would return home from work and see our bruised bodies and bloodied faces she would tell us that we probably deserved it.

At one stage I really believed my father was evil - such was his cruelty. I could tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end.

Years later when I started to confront some of the extreme abuse and it became apparent to my parents - my mothers response was that I needed help.

[tru3]

So true.

It reminds me of my own dysfunctional childhood. I grew up with a really abusive father and a mother who lived in denial. My father would not just beat the living crap out of us but would torture us physically and psychologically.

When my mother would return home from work and see our bruised bodies and bloodied faces she would tell us that we probably deserved it.

At one stage I really believed my father was evil - such was his cruelty. I could tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end.

Years later when I started to confront some of the extreme abuse and it became apparent to my parents - my mothers response was that I needed help.

see chart above. most of my abuse was psychological; my wheelchair was invisible, as they say. but my mom was definitely involved, and accountable too.

if you ever get a chance to see the series "john bradshaw on the family", catch it. they still show it on pbs once in a while. they also showed it on some holistic cable channel too.

nothing on youtube, i looked. too bad.

[truthcommission]

Thanks tru3.

Can you throw some light on the statement regarding 'vital lies'?

Nationalities and religious affiliations are the strongest factors in this type of boundary. Italians, Greeks, Irishmen, etc. have their own special rules and 'vital lies'.

[Anders Lindman]

At one stage I really believed my father was evil - such was his cruelty.

My theory is that cruelty like that is created by an immense overload of stress hormones. If this high level of stress hormones is not lowered, then the brain and other organs in the body will begin to be destroyed. So it's very crucial for the person having this overload to lower the hormonal levels, and rage and violent is one way of doing this. In a society based on social rank, the person will usually not mess with people higher up in the social ranking, such as the boss or other authorities.

If a person manages to climb up the social ranking ladder, then his or her stress hormone levels are lowered, even when the means of rising up in social ranking creates suffering for others. Imagine a society where each person is trying to climb up the social ranking ladder by pushing other people having lower social rank even further down. For thousands of years, this is actually how society has been built. And before that, millions of years of similar struggles for social 'success' had been going on. Today's power pyramid is a result of this baboon-like behavior. Is it then any wonder why there is so much cruelty in the world today?

[truthcommission]

Hmmm not sure about that one. It doesn't really explain what made humans like this in the first place or the unfathomable depths of evil that humans have sunk to.

[tru3]

Thanks tru3.

Can you throw some light on the statement regarding 'vital lies'?

Nationalities and religious affiliations are the strongest factors in this type of boundary. Italians, Greeks, Irishmen, etc. have their own special rules and 'vital lies'.

i would say, that a "vital lie" helps maintain a barrier of separation and alienation from the world at large. this maintains the status quo, shelters the dysfunction and allows it to fester and propagate from generation to generation.

it's tribal and religious family "histories" we label ourselves with.

for example (please don't shoot the messenger here), if i'm a young irishman and drink a lot, one way to rational-lies my addiction (or my spouse's addiction if i'm co-dependant) is that "oh, well, i'm irish, my whole family's a bunch of drunks (hey, i'm one-quarter irish meself, so easy on the flaming! you asked! :o )

the "vital lie" of w.a.s.p.'s ,like the bushes, for example, would be that they have the right to rule america. with pride, comes the unwillingness to heal. it's a justification, within the family, to keep the dysfunction undisturbed and crystallized.

the same with religious families: with "god is on our side/we're saved" type of stuff, then nobody ever has to (or even can) shed the light of truth into the dark family closet (number 9 on the list).

my own family's "vital lie" was: we're from the wrong side of the tracks, the black sheep of the family. you play the hand you're dealt. it's us against the world. it's more of a sociological vital lie than a racial or nationalistic, but then again, i'm american, and those are the most pernicious ones here.

so, in reponse to this, using the co-ordinates above,

1) my dad overcompensated by being driven to material success out of fear of his inability to take care of his family like his father had been unable to do.

2) in his obsessive drive to change the vital lie, he became addicted to alcohol, sex, and rage.

3) his co-dependant partner, my mother, became addicted to her betrayal.

4) i became daddy's little victim: an underachiever, a rebel, an addict, a surrogate spouse for my mom (emotionally).

5) my brother, 10 years younger, adopted the role of peacemaker/overachiever/athelete, which he is still playing today at age 37.

btw, i'm still playing the rebel today at 47, for that matter! :D

[truthcommission]

i would say, that a "vital lie" helps maintain a barrier of separation and alienation from the world at large.
Interesting take on things tru3.

I am beginning to understand how these vital lies appear as apparent separations and pass from father to son or generation to generation.

[Anders Lindman]

Hmmm not sure about that one. It doesn't really explain what made humans like this in the first place or the unfathomable depths of evil that humans have sunk to.

I saw a scientific presentation about how baboons function in nature where they lived in societies based on strict social ranking in a hierarchical pyramid. The baboons were often extremely aggressive in order to secure, defend or climb up the social ranking ladder. Then I thought, oh shit, this is exactly how human society functions also, with the basic difference that we have economy, technology etc and the baboons don't.

Look at the primitive strive for profit and expansion in the business world. Economic experts talk about economic efficiency, but the truth is that the human core drive has not evolved much compared to how baboons function. What from a suboptimal perspective looks like efficiency is from a larger perspective dysfunctional.

I see this as a sign of humanity still being shockingly primitive, or to be more polite, that humanity is still a bit 'young'.

Even worse is that while the common people have baboon-like core drives, those reaching high ranking positions in the power pyramid show signs of even more primitive reptile-like core drives.

What is needed is to convert the power pyramid from being a master to being a server. A higher form of power in the form of networks needs to emerge, not to replace the power pyramid, but to turn it into a server.

[yinon]

brilliant, yinon. well said. kids play their assigned role in the family dynamic. john bradshaw writes that a family is a connected system, and that a disturbance in one element of the system affects the system as a whole, and that the system has a permeable membrane around it as well.

The dysfunctional family system has a third boundary. This one exists as an invisible line around the whole family. I call it the cultural or subcultural boundary. Nationalities and religious affiliations are the strongest factors in this type of boundary. Italians, Greeks, Irishmen, etc. have their own special rules and 'vital lies'. Likewise with Pentecostalists, Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, Jews, etc. These subculture boundaries control the flow of information coming into and going out of the family.... These boundaries can contribute greatly to the family's level of dysfunctionality.

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my wife and i have an interior design firm. our clients are well-to-do but not wealthy, from professors and teachers, to small business owners, to engineers, to farmers. average bourgeois upper middle class, like us.

about half the families' kids are having substance abuse or "lack of ambition", as their parents put it (i suspect that kids today just have a more highly evolved sense of smell, as they can detect the faintest whiff of bullshit :D ).

i've gotten to know several of the mothers, and when they say junior went to 'treatment', i casually ask if the whole family is involved.

they looked shocked, which is precisely the essence of denial.

Yes the Bradshaw work is great but not complete. There is no dysfunctional system. The only thing is LOVE. Therapy cannot help people to get out of there.Why? Because with that kind of thinking , they maintain the illusion that there is something good and bad. Every elements in the system express a parth of the truth. If you condemd one, you maintain the old way of behaving.

Apply the same model in society ...everyone are a divine part of the whole .
That's why there is so much wars, agressivity and confrontation...Some of us think that they are better than others because they lead. It's a big lie. My son is the scapegoat at school with the new a$$ hole. I think its the best place to play. You become their scapegoat because you name things and they don't want to face the truth. You learn to become the stronger one. The other parents protect theirs kids and ask them to be perfect. They gonna have to pay the price later believe me . I don't have choice with my son we have to communicate a lot to help him pass their lies. He is learning to play every role by my side because I doN,t condemn anyone around him.

More you are integrated and can play every roles, more you become powerful, magnetic and a agent of transformation

Less you are integrated and see life in a fragmented way, more you maintain wars and agressivity. (THe old forum) THat's why our leaders , as Bush and their followers have to go back to school. They cannot love everyone and everything. They first want to shine for their Ego and they reject confrontation.I've few websites in mind who controlled information and banned players for stupid reasons. It's their strategy and power trip or their desire to be right who pushed them to behave like this. The illuminies kids are really desintegrated. They are sick. We cannot let them do.

[yinon]

The New-AGers clic (Zionist, Old Christians, and more ) have to go back to school and learn this new stuff on relationship, if we truly want to save this world. I don't buy their lies when they want to isolte some of us through their hidden agenda. Many see what's going on.

That's why I can see the difference between true genius and False Genius. False genius wants to lead. True genius are here for the REAL welfare of human kind. Hard but true...When you ban someone for no apparent reasons you are here for HELL on EARTH. When you erase what some of us shared, you are here to control. There is a minimum of rules to follow but they have to learn first to love people who doesn't think the same way than them .They have a huge problem with it

Good luck Controlers-HITLER is behind many websites

[danster82]

From what Ive gained of spiritual teachers this is Ego death.
you say

"What happens when you choose to let emptiness and the void set in and take hold"

Do you beleive you could actually make this choice? what would you have to do or what would it mean to allow it to set in?

If this is a choice for you then please teach me how to do it.

[gorgeousbutterfly]

i see depression is a cause of an ego crisis because the ego is challenged by the higher self. am i wrong?

[alice1111]

This is one of the most interesting threads I have come across lately. Sometimes it does seem that joy is being sucked out of the world.
IMO, when people start waking up to the monstrosities that are going on, it can make you feel as if your very spirit is dying.
I do my best to see it as change. Maybe we are dying to the old so that the new can come in whether in this reality or the next. Sort of like when a flower dies, drops it's seeds and a new flower blooms again.
Unfortunately, or fortunately I am not a very trusting person so the only thing I can think of to do is to try my best to have hope that something good will blossom out of the crap.:confused:

Alice

[shellygurrrl]

I'm just responding here to the very first post without reading the rest of the thread (yet), but I have experience with depression, so I feel I can provide my opinion on this subject.

It is possible, first of all, for a "walk-in" to replace a suffering depressed and "spiritually dead" human, if he or she gives permission. (But no one is ever alive here and fully spiritually dead, that is only an illusion taken by the one suffering.)

Depression can be a state of mind and a result of chemical imbalance due to many things, diet being one that comes to mind firstly. I've been on anti-depressants, I've wanted to die, and it sucks. But, I believe if one changes one's focus, and changes one's diet to include pure foods (chemicals and fake ingredients cause SO many problems), one can surpass this suffering.

Also, another reason a person can feel so depressed and dead is because it is possible he or she is a "wanderer," someone who is not from this density, someone who is "from elsewhere," and they feel alone and separate from this reality, and that can cause INCREDIBLE distress. So, if you are feeling this, look into this possibility. Realizing who you really are can be uplifting, provide answers, give comfort, and a purpose.

Relying only on the physical to explain depression, without including some spirituality and the unknown and unexplained can lead you on a goose chase, leave you running blindly through a maze. Many of us here think we are damaged and crazy, but that is only a label this illusory existence can place on us. We don't have to accept it. That alone can be a cure of sorts.