hangovers

[clozaril]

i'm wondering if any fellow truth seekers are experiencing this ?

i'm having cruel and horrendous hangovers.

having not drank for 3-4 weeks i went out and drank about 10 pints. the hangovers i am getting now are truly cruel, i feel very negative, emotional and think my life is hopeless etc.

i drink less frequently now say once a month but when i do i binge and it takes about 3 days to get back to 'normal' - build my energy up be motivated and positive.

on reading this it would be easy to say 'well don't drink' but i want to know if others are experiencing these negative effects ?

[al209]

Try changing what you drink. I had the same thing, feeling real depressed following day etc, plus it was taking me less and less to get really really pissed, with blackouts, violence, generally being a wanker etc.. i changed from lager and grain based alcohol in general to cider and wine (fruit based) and now i have a new lease of life as far as getting pissed is concerned. I can drink and drink cider for hours and stay on a level no stupidity, and the hangover is non-existent i.e. bit of a dry mouth and tiredness, which passes quickly, but no headache and stomach upset and no depression. If i drink shite cider like Strongbow, the effects are a bit worse, but if i drink better quality stuff, its not what id call a hangover at all. There is a massive difference in fruit v grain alcohol. Not sure if theres any interaction with Clozapine tho...:)

[clozaril]

thanks, i was on fosters so there may be some truth to what you say and yeah a few years ago i was having blackouts losing 3 or 4 hours but still drinking like something had posessed me and as you say generally been a wanker nasty causing all sorts of problems which have effectively altered my life

seems like i should give cider a go then !

[madthumbs]

Getting drunk on hard cider may lead to diarrhea and further dehydration. Have you tried drinking a glass of water for every pint of beer?

[tyler]

Why do you want to get drunk in the first place? Drinking is fun when we are kids in our early twenties but eventually we have to grow up.
Drinking stunts spiritual growth.

It also sounds like you are drinking alcoholically not just a few to relax.

Maybe time to seek some help.

[al209]

It also sounds like you are drinking alcoholically not just a few to relax.


Sounds like he is drinking english-ly. :D:D

[al209]

Getting drunk on hard cider may lead to diarrhea and further dehydration. Have you tried drinking a glass of water for every pint of beer?


That old chestnut! Probably works, but easier said than done when your in full flow. I dont mean start drinking Frosty Jacks 8.9% paint stripper, 4.5% - 5% Bulmers/Magners or try the new fruit ones that are out, Kopparberg etc

[clozaril]

yeah thanks al209 i'll give cider a go next time i'm out. i'm trying to understand whats going on, i mean in my heavy drinking period hangovers wouldn't bother me as a livener after work would sort us out and the thought of that would get me through the day.

whereas now i'm wanting to look at it energetically, and tbh i do see drinking as a waste of time now as it is costing me too much in 'recovery time' had a good night saw a few people i hadn't seen..... but like i say the hangovers are really knocking me for six.

[al209]

I very rarely go out drinking nowadays, for health reasons and due to the fact that i live in the alcohol/coke/chav/gypsy capital of yorkshire, if not britain, and going out generally means combat. But i dont fear getting out of control or waking up rough and ringing in sick with the cider. Ive found that it can give you a bit of heartburn or acid indigestion, but only on occasion and thats prob as much to do with what your eating. Pack of rennies might not be a bad idea..let me know how you get on

[clozaril]

i've got dj paul woolford penciled in my diary for 6th sept

just reading back the does alcohol make you a sheeple thread.....some good posts in there

[demeter_maru]

i'm wondering if any fellow truth seekers are experiencing this ?

i'm having cruel and horrendous hangovers.

having not drank for 3-4 weeks i went out and drank about 10 pints. the hangovers i am getting now are truly cruel, i feel very negative, emotional and think my life is hopeless etc.

i drink less frequently now say once a month but when i do i binge and it takes about 3 days to get back to 'normal' - build my energy up be motivated and positive.

on reading this it would be easy to say 'well don't drink' but i want to know if others are experiencing these negative effects ?

Alcohol is a depressant; also, blackouts are signs of alcoholic drinking. You don't need to drink. You may want to, but you don't have to. You can choose a better, healthier way to live. Why not talk to your doc about your health and see what it's worth to continue with alcohol vs a life without it..

[stealth]

thanks, i was on fosters so there may be some truth to what you say and yeah a few years ago i was having blackouts losing 3 or 4 hours but still drinking like something had posessed me and as you say generally been a wanker nasty causing all sorts of problems which have effectively altered my life

seems like i should give cider a go then !

I drink foster's all the time,in pubs and from cans with no ill effect,only stella has a bad effect on me,a bad hangover the next day,so I stick to either foster's or oranjeboom lager,you should only drink lots when you have had some food earlier and I alway's drink a pint of water before I go to bed to rehydrate myself.I did drink cider some years back but found it was to gasy and acidic after 2 or 3 pints,hope this help's.:)

[psych641]

yeah thanks al209 i'll give cider a go next time i'm out.

careful with the cider - a lot of it is just chemicals like pop. Lots of mainstream brands (eg. strongbow) are packed with saccharin. Some have probably never seen an apple!

If anyone would care to name some certified 'real' additive-free ciders, preferably organic id be grateful :) would make a nice change from neat vodka etc which i drink out atm.

[psych641]

There is a massive difference in fruit v grain alcohol.

what everyday spirits are fruit alcohol? (brandy obviously..) - rum?

[limelady]

My partner now only drinks beers that are preservative free, additive free and low carb (no artificual sweeteners).

They cost a little more (here in Australia), but he never feels poorly if he has a few beers. But I will say 3 small bottles are his limit, and most times he only drinks one or two after work/before dinner, and this is certainly not every night, so he could not be considered a binge drinker.

However, last weekend he purchased a brand of beer made in the US (which was being promoted for people to try) and he discovered when he got it home that there were no ingredients listed. It was Friday night so he drank 3 x 375mil bottles after work, and the next morning after just those 3 bottles he woke with severe 'drys' and a hangover.....something he hasn't experienced in years. He couldn't believe how poorly he felt!

I believe it may be the chemical additive that cause some of the worst symptoms of hangovers......but clozeril, I have to say that 12 pints is rather a lot of beer to swill down at one time. :eek:

It pays to remember that alcohol itself is a chemical, and drinking in binge amounts once a month or even once a year is toxic to all the body systems, particularly the liver and the brain - the latter becomes badly dehydrated, and in fact alcohol kills many brain cells in one hit and although some regeneration goes on, as we age the brains ability to replace dead brain cells diminishes substantially - so there is some truth to the belief that excessive alcohol consumption reduces intelligence, not to mention the unrepairable damage it does to the liver. :o

[orbandsceptre27]

My partner now only drinks beers that are preservative free, additive free and low carb (no artificual sweeteners).

They cost a little more (here in Australia), but he never feels poorly if he has a few beers. But I will say 3 small bottles are his limit, and most times he only drinks one or two after work/before dinner, and this is certainly not every night, so he could not be considered a binge drinker.

However, last weekend he purchased a brand of beer made in the US (which was being promoted for people to try) and he discovered when he got it home that there were no ingredients listed. It was Friday night so he drank 3 x 375mil bottles after work, and the next morning after just those 3 bottles he woke with severe 'drys' and a hangover.....something he hasn't experienced in years. He couldn't believe how poorly he felt!

I believe it may be the chemical additive that cause some of the worst symptoms of hangovers......but clozeril, I have to say that 12 pints is rather a lot of beer to swill down at one time. :eek:

It pays to remember that alcohol itself is a chemical, and drinking in binge amounts once a month or even once a year is toxic to all the body systems, particularly the liver and the brain - the latter becomes badly dehydrated, and in fact alcohol kills many brain cells in one hit and although some regeneration goes on, as we age the brains ability to replace dead brain cells diminishes substantially - so there is some truth to the belief that excessive alcohol consumption reduces intelligence, not to mention the unrepairable damage it does to the liver. :o


Well said limelady, I`ve heard from a few different sources that many of the American beers are full of presevatives and lots of different chemicals which cause terrible hangovers. I loved to drink Miller - I find now in my late 20`s drinking alcohol takes more out of me than in my late teens/early 20`s.

Two words - "German beer". Many of the toxins which are so plentiful in many other European and American brands are illegal in Germany, so brewing is a different "kettle of fish" in "the fatherland" lol. One of my favourites is Warsteiner - fewer hangovers, happy days :) I`d agree with limelady though, alcohol is not good even in moderation so be careful!

[al209]

careful with the cider - a lot of it is just chemicals like pop. Lots of mainstream brands (eg. strongbow) are packed with saccharin. Some have probably never seen an apple!

If anyone would care to name some certified 'real' additive-free ciders, preferably organic id be grateful :) would make a nice change from neat vodka etc which i drink out atm.


Westons Organic is pretty good, and potent (lethal) (6.5%), but you will struggle to find commercial cider free of sulphites "for freshness" :rolleyes:

[madthumbs]

Alcohol is a depressant

Only in certain respects: (depressed response time, depressed hearing, depressed visual field of view). Calling it a depressant falsely leads people to think that it causes depression while the B-vitamins it contains may lead to the opposite for some.

[clozaril]

so all in all it was my 4th time out this year, every hangover has been horrible this one particularly worse.

personally the less i go out drinking the more damage i see it causing and the more time i see wasted, yet i need to socialise and the majority of people at my work drink everyday whereas friends drink everyweek.


perhaps i should stop moaning

[jp13]

Only in certain respects: (depressed response time, depressed hearing, depressed visual field of view). Calling it a depressant falsely leads people to think that it causes depression while the B-vitamins it contains may lead to the opposite for some.
This is true a lot of people get fooled with this 'arguement' alcohol is a 'depressant' to the central nervous system, but does not cause 'Depression' unless you be depressed already and drinking on top like any other drug exacerbates the problem, also if you drink to such degree that you are having blackouts, or drinking to stop getting hangovers I would say there may be a problem, but it is up each person to make their mind up about this.
A good rule is not to drink all the 'chemical' drinks that are out there, including White Lightening or K cider 9% and don't mix your drinks, if you can't stop until you've lost your house, computer and shirt of you're back for drink, then I would say you have a problem.

[delamo1999]

My partner now only drinks beers that are preservative free, additive free and low carb (no artificual sweeteners).

They cost a little more (here in Australia), but he never feels poorly if he has a few beers. But I will say 3 small bottles are his limit, and most times he only drinks one or two after work/before dinner, and this is certainly not every night, so he could not be considered a binge drinker.

However, last weekend he purchased a brand of beer made in the US (which was being promoted for people to try) and he discovered when he got it home that there were no ingredients listed. It was Friday night so he drank 3 x 375mil bottles after work, and the next morning after just those 3 bottles he woke with severe 'drys' and a hangover.....something he hasn't experienced in years. He couldn't believe how poorly he felt!

I believe it may be the chemical additive that cause some of the worst symptoms of hangovers......but clozeril, I have to say that 12 pints is rather a lot of beer to swill down at one time. :eek:

It pays to remember that alcohol itself is a chemical, and drinking in binge amounts once a month or even once a year is toxic to all the body systems, particularly the liver and the brain - the latter becomes badly dehydrated, and in fact alcohol kills many brain cells in one hit and although some regeneration goes on, as we age the brains ability to replace dead brain cells diminishes substantially - so there is some truth to the belief that excessive alcohol consumption reduces intelligence, not to mention the unrepairable damage it does to the liver. :o



Although I do not have physical proof of this, my intuition has told me that most American beers are packed with toxic (and sometimes addictive) ingrediants to keep the drinker wanting to drink more. It is no coincidence that binge drinking in the US is really high and it is not only the college students who are doing it. Also many of the binge drinkers choose such commercial beers as budwiser, miller, and coors light as their choice of poison.

My best advice is that if you are on your spiritual journey that it would be in your best interest to leave it alone. As I have posted in other posts, alcohol is a low vibratory substance that lowers the drinkers frequency level. I know from my own past experience that when I was drinking, I was not very spiritual and for the most part was in a haze.

I am not here to tell you have to stop drinking. I only want to give you some insight.

:)


Below is a video I found on YouTube that talks about the ills of drinking and smoking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhmaAKbEi4w&feature=related

If interested there are 3 other videos that talk about spirituality.

[who elsie]

Although I do not have physical proof of this, my intuition has told me that most American beers are packed with toxic (and sometimes addictive) ingrediants to keep the drinker wanting to drink more. It is no coincidence that binge drinking in the US is really high and it is not only the college students who are doing it. Also many of the binge drinkers choose such commercial beers as budwiser, miller, and coors light as their choice of poison.

My best advice is that if you are on your spiritual journey that it would be in your best interest to leave it alone. As I have posted in other posts, alcohol is a low vibratory substance that lowers the drinkers frequency level. I know from my own past experience that when I was drinking, I was not very spiritual and for the most part was in a haze.

I am not here to tell you have to stop drinking. I only want to give you some insight.
:)

I agree with much of what you say. It's a mystery to me why so many people (not just youth) are hell bent on binge-drinking these days. Maybe there is something being added to the beer to increase the addictiveness of it. A night out to drinkers in Uk is not about QUALITY - of company, entertainment, drinks etc - but on QUANTITY. Just get as many alcoholic units as you can down your neck before they chuck you out of whatever hell-hole you go to. How you might feel the next day is immaterial - as long as you can say you had so many drinks (notice people's obsession with telling others the exact number of drinks consumed in a night - as this is what they consider to be kudos)

I am finding that the more I develop spiritually, the more alienated I am getting from the alcohol culture in the UK - which seems to effect most people. I also find that my tolerance levels are falling drastically, to the point where even just a few alcoholic drinks will give me a stinking hangover. Who needs it?!

[delamo1999]

I agree with much of what you say. It's a mystery to me why so many people (not just youth) are hell bent on binge-drinking these days. Maybe there is something being added to the beer to increase the addictiveness of it. A night out to drinkers in Uk is not about QUALITY - of company, entertainment, drinks etc - but on QUANTITY. Just get as many alcoholic units as you can down your neck before they chuck you out of whatever hell-hole you go to. How you might feel the next day is immaterial - as long as you can say you had so many drinks (notice people's obsession with telling others the exact number of drinks consumed in a night - as this is what they consider to be kudos)

I am finding that the more I develop spiritually, the more alienated I am getting from the alcohol culture in the UK - which seems to effect most people. I also find that my tolerance levels are falling drastically, to the point where even just a few alcoholic drinks will give me a stinking hangover. Who needs it?!


Exactly, I hear people at work brag about how many drinks they had Friday night. Then they tell about what stuff they did while they were plastered (stuff that they would never dream about doing sober).

I found as I went along on my spiritual journey that the desire for me to drink drastically diminished. I would question myself why I was even drinking the one beer that I was going to drink for the night. To me know drinking does not make any sense anymore.

And you are right. Who needs the hangover.

:)

[truth_junkie]

Hangovers are basically the result of dehydration. After a night of drinking, don't go directly to bed; stay up for a little while and get 2 tall glasses of water in your system. A multivitamin also helps replenish some of the vitamins that may have been drained from your system.
Also, if you choose to drink Scotch you are much less likely to have a hangover.
Avoid excessive wine drinking or other fruity drinks - they make you the sickest.
Also, here's a good rule of thumb: "Liquor before beer, never fear. Beer before liquor, never sicker"
Also helps to balance out the alcohol with marijuana - excellent for nausea.

[clozaril]

yes for me this is a problem as drinking/going out is the only bond i have with some people. the less i go out the more isolated i feel - perhaps i'm having a mini identity crisis ?

and in england going out is a massive part of peoples identity, for some it is their form of self expression

going out getting completely messed up is not rebellious, (as i used to think) that is what 'they' want us to do, you know we are not saying yeah i work hard all week i've earned this right to say fuck everything fuck the system i'm getting wasted but we are saying fuck ourselves fuck tommorow i'm wasting myself.

maybe true maybe not

i am having difficulty with this

[who elsie]

yes for me this is a problem as drinking/going out is the only bond i have with some people. the less i go out the more isolated i feel - perhaps i'm having a mini identity crisis ?

and in england going out is a massive part of peoples identity, for some it is their form of self expression

going out getting completely messed up is not rebellious, (as i used to think) that is what 'they' want us to do, you know we are not saying yeah i work hard all week i've earned this right to say fuck everything fuck the system i'm getting wasted but we are saying fuck ourselves fuck tommorow i'm wasting myself.

maybe true maybe not

i am having difficulty with this

I can identify with this too. You've obviously recognised the self-destructive nature of alcohol. Don't stop going out, but maybe just limit your alcohol in-take. Or better still, start reducing it gradually. You and your mates will gradually get used to the idea then. Your mates are not real mates unless they accept your differences.

I did this. Initially it was hard, as you feel pressure to conform, but the more people continue to conform, the harder it is for anyone to be different. I don't need much alcohol to still have a good night out. The hard bit is being sober around drunk people. When you're sober you really see what prats they are. But the more I talk to people about this, the more I realise that there are loads of people who don't want to go out and get blind drunk every weekend, but they do - because they feel pressure to be like everyone else. We all need to start standing up for what we truly believe in.

Love & peace

[demeter_maru]

Although I do not have physical proof of this, my intuition has told me that most American beers are packed with toxic (and sometimes addictive) ingrediants to keep the drinker wanting to drink more. It is no coincidence that binge drinking in the US is really high and it is not only the college students who are doing it. Also many of the binge drinkers choose such commercial beers as budwiser, miller, and coors light as their choice of poison.

My best advice is that if you are on your spiritual journey that it would be in your best interest to leave it alone. As I have posted in other posts, alcohol is a low vibratory substance that lowers the drinkers frequency level. I know from my own past experience that when I was drinking, I was not very spiritual and for the most part was in a haze.

I am not here to tell you have to stop drinking. I only want to give you some insight.

:)


Below is a video I found on YouTube that talks about the ills of drinking and smoking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhmaAKbEi4w&feature=related

If interested there are 3 other videos that talk about spirituality.


Delamo, the toxic and addictive ingredient you are referring to is alcohol.


Clozaril, you drink to blacking out, you see drinking affecting your life in a negative way, and you binge drink. You're an alcoholic. Go to an AA meeting or talk with an addiction specialist/counselor/therapist/doctor, whatever fits your needs best, but first and foremost, you'll feel better if you do something besides drink and hang out with people who drink. There are loads of things to do besides spend time in a pub doing something you know doesn't enhance your life and you know it. There are classes, films, hobbies, groups, and tons of other ways to fill your time happily outside of the pub with others who share your interests.

[al209]

yes for me this is a problem as drinking/going out is the only bond i have with some people. the less i go out the more isolated i feel - perhaps i'm having a mini identity crisis ?

and in england going out is a massive part of peoples identity, for some it is their form of self expression

going out getting completely messed up is not rebellious, (as i used to think) that is what 'they' want us to do, you know we are not saying yeah i work hard all week i've earned this right to say fuck everything fuck the system i'm getting wasted but we are saying fuck ourselves fuck tommorow i'm wasting myself.

maybe true maybe not

i am having difficulty with this

Its hard. I have had to "give up" a lot of my oldest school friends because of this. I havent had to give them up as friends altogether, but when I took drink out of the equation, I realised thats we've not so much in common after all. We did have when we were kids, but booze has masked how different we had become over the years. Its now nicer to see them when i bump into them in non-booze situations.

The problem is I wanted to grow as a person, but they didn't.

Seems a similiar situation with you.

[al209]

Clozaril, you drink to blacking out, you see drinking affecting your life in a negative way, and you binge drink. You're an alcoholic.

Thats a bit harsh. He's not drinking in the mornings or even every day.

[demeter_maru]

You don't have to drink in the mornings or even every day to be addicted to it. Those are later stage sorts of behaviors that make addiction really hard to miss (unless you're the one doing them). Drinking despite knowing it's dragging your life down, binging and blacking out while drinking don't add up to someone who is not addicted to alcohol. I'm not trying to be hurtful, it's the facts that are there. And it's not a judgmental thing, it's just what addiction to alcohol is.
I hope Clozaril changes his life so he can be happy and healthy.

[clozaril]

Drinking despite knowing it's dragging your life down, binging and blacking out while drinking don't add up to someone who is not addicted to alcohol.

have you been out lately ?

;)

btw can we not turn this into an are you an acloholic/what do you class as an alcoholic thread.

i went out a friend was djing no drink in 3 weeks woke up felt really terrible, very rarely go out now the majority of people appear to think getting drunk is proof they are living it up i am having difficulty with this need social contact but don't want to deplete my energy/awareness having an identity crisis anyone else feeling like this ?

[kingmonkey]

have you been out lately ?

;)

btw can we not turn this into an are you an acloholic/what do you class as an alcoholic thread.

i went out a friend was djing no drink in 3 weeks woke up felt really terrible, very rarely go out now the majority of people appear to think getting drunk is proof they are living it up i am having difficulty with this need social contact but don't want to deplete my energy/awareness having an identity crisis anyone else feeling like this ?

I can sympathize with that. I'd say I was exactly the same. Although I've got to the point where I don't really want to drink, I still do it for the social aspect of it. I see friends who don't know each other as well and have different lives; so I might go out with one group on one night and some other's another night. It's all very well saying don't hang around people who drink or don't drink when you go out but it's not that easy. You get sick of hearing yourself saying "no" after a while. Where I live if I didn't go out with people who drank alcohol, I'd never go anywhere!

Although saying that, I don't drink half as much as I used to.

[young_geecee]

sorry if its been mentioned but i do know drinking beer/lager in any amount is far far more likely to give you a hangover then drinking spirits and if you go bed deydrated thats a hangover confirmed.
my mum works in a doctors surgery and said to me when the doctors go out drinking they take two ibuprofen before they drink because it stops hangovers, ive tried it a couple of times but cant say whether it helps or if its true but i will know soon enough if i try a few more times

[kanz]

i'm wondering if any fellow truth seekers are experiencing this ?

i'm having cruel and horrendous hangovers.

having not drank for 3-4 weeks i went out and drank about 10 pints. the hangovers i am getting now are truly cruel, i feel very negative, emotional and think my life is hopeless etc.

i drink less frequently now say once a month but when i do i binge and it takes about 3 days to get back to 'normal' - build my energy up be motivated and positive.

on reading this it would be easy to say 'well don't drink' but i want to know if others are experiencing these negative effects ?

Thats because you are drinking 10 pints lol . Just cut back on what you drink and you should be fine.
If you don't drink much you shouldn't need to drink 10 pints when you do go out to get drunk .
Some of my mates who drink everyday would be monged after 10 pints so i can only imagine the state you will get in :p

[kweli]

Delamo, the toxic and addictive ingredient you are referring to is alcohol.


Clozaril, you drink to blacking out, you see drinking affecting your life in a negative way, and you binge drink. You're an alcoholic. Go to an AA meeting or talk with an addiction specialist/counselor/therapist/doctor, whatever fits your needs best, but first and foremost, you'll feel better if you do something besides drink and hang out with people who drink. There are loads of things to do besides spend time in a pub doing something you know doesn't enhance your life and you know it. There are classes, films, hobbies, groups, and tons of other ways to fill your time happily outside of the pub with others who share your interests.

You cannot possibly diagnose clorazil of alcolohism based on a message from an interenet forum, surely?

I would NOT recommend any one take the AA (programming) route.. it's another new age cult. They'll tell you you're powerless - - you're not!

To clorazil, good luck matey, you have the answers.. no one else. :)

[demeter_maru]

You cannot possibly diagnose clorazil of alcolohism based on a message from an interenet forum, surely?

I would NOT recommend any one take the AA (programming) route.. it's another new age cult. They'll tell you you're powerless - - you're not!

To clorazil, good luck matey, you have the answers.. no one else. :)

Show me a nonalcoholic who drinks to blackouts and I''ll change my statement.

[kingmonkey]

Show me a nonalcoholic who drinks to blackouts and I''ll change my statement.

There's a difference between alcohol abuse and alcohol dependency/alcoholism.

[clozaril]

demeter can you read all my posts again there is no mention of drinking TO blackout, drinking THEN blacking out yes. to your post show me a non alcoholic who drinks to blackouts well what are you doing next friday/saturday mate come up to scarborough or any provincial town in fact any where in the uk

as kweli says AA is an illuminati tool can't remeber who exposed it maybe mtsar or DI himself

kanz 10 pints isn't a lot in 6/7 hours, i don't eat chocolate or sweets so perhaps it's partly a sugar buzz aswell

[kweli]

Show me a nonalcoholic who drinks to blackouts and I''ll change my statement.

See Kingmonkey's post.

Here's what they'll tell you at EVERY meeting:

"There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; neither endorses nor opposes any causes."

Here's something they'll NEVER talk about: The Rockerfellers donated money to help finance the first edition of 'The Big Book' and to pay off Dr Bob's mortgage.. lol.

JD Rockerfeller Jr, even threw a dinner party to endorse and promote AA!
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aarockdinner.html

Also.. Bill W, wife Lois, & Dr Bob were all involved in occult practices at the time AA was formed.

I spent nine years of my life, devoted to the fellowship of AA (& other 12 step programmes). My opinions are based on my own personal experiences.