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csr21

09-08-2008, 12:00 PM

www.exposingchristianity.com

It contains a lot of good information regarding Christianity.

themime

09-08-2008, 12:37 PM

Interesting stuff, but should we be sceptical in accepting anti Christianity theories presented on a site that links to The Joy of Satan at face value?

csr21

09-08-2008, 01:27 PM

Interesting stuff, but should we be sceptical in accepting anti Christianity theories presented on a site that links to The Joy of Satan at face value?

Agreed, nothing should be accepted at face value, but the Satanic leaning of the site doesn't mean the information has any less value. The information on the site can speak for itself, regardless of who presented it, or the tone it may have. The Joy of Satan site also, contains a lot of good stuff, and by no means is a stereotypical Satanic website. Both sites have depth to the views expressed in them.

themime

09-08-2008, 01:43 PM

Agreed, nothing should be accepted at face value, but the Satanic leaning of the site doesn't mean the information has any less value. The information on the site can speak for itself, regardless of who presented it, or the tone it may have. The Joy of Satan site also, contains a lot of good stuff, and by no means is a stereotypical Satanic website. Both sites have depth to the views expressed in them.

:) It's just the cynic in me coming out to play.

Your correct the source doesn't invalidate the information given and sometimes even helps you to glean additional info about the source that they may not have intended.

I'll read through them both fully later when I have a bit more time.:D

seekingthetruth

14-08-2008, 08:09 AM

Agreed, nothing should be accepted at face value, but the Satanic leaning of the site doesn't mean the information has any less value.

Actually, it does. It's pretty obvious that Satanists are bias against Christianity, and therefore cannot be trusted in this manner. Naturally if there was any actual evidence that was exposing Christianity to be false, then it wouldn't matter if they were Satanist or not ... but that's not the case in this situation.

As a matter of fact, I have an idea that might help ...

How about rather than trying to expose Christianity as false, why not research Christianity to see if it is true?

madthumbs

15-08-2008, 06:17 AM

How about rather than trying to expose Christianity as false, why not research Christianity to see if it is true?

:eek:

If that's possible, why not just prove for us that it's true?

It's pretty obvious that Satanists are bias against Christianity

Satanists serve Christianity by validating it's antagonist.

and therefore cannot be trusted in this manner

Likewise Christians can't be trusted on any non Christian matters.

Naturally if there was any actual evidence that was exposing Christianity to be false, then it wouldn't matter if they were Satanist or not

Is there evidence that the tooth fairy isn't real? -Please provide such evidence!

How about instead we focus on the sick horrors of this racist, barbaric, genocidal, infant genital mutilating, female oppressing, herbalist / homosexual / adulterer killing religion?

seekingthetruth

15-08-2008, 06:40 AM

So you want evidence for Christianity?

Alright ... it's called the Bible.

Since it may be a bit time consuming for me to include a post containing the entire Bible to show the evidence you require, might I suggest reading it for yourself?

If you don't agree with it, then that's a decision that's yours to make.

Likewise Christians can't be trusted on any non Christian matters.

Umm ... I still live in the world, so my opinion is still valid on world matters.

However, perhaps my opinion on satanism would be a bit one sided ...

That I can agree on ...

bendoon

15-08-2008, 10:29 AM

Satanists are in Good company with the likes of George Bush, Henry Kissinger and David Rockefeller, they meet up once a year at Bohemia Grove to sacrifice a child to a big stone owl. Heard its quite a hoot.

The skull & bones image on that web site kinda gives the game away.

Satanists want to expose Christianity, gee who woulda thought.

seanx

15-08-2008, 11:22 AM

Seeking thetruth wrote:

So you want evidence for Christianity?

Alright ... it's called the Bible.

And the Bible is the word of 'God'?

Says who?

How do you know that?

How do you not know you are being sold a 'story'?

Your whole belief structure is built upon this massive assumption?

madthumbs

15-08-2008, 02:59 PM

Since it may be a bit time consuming for me to include a post containing the entire Bible to show the evidence you require, might I suggest reading it for yourself?

I bet I've read and know it more than you. :rolleyes:

If you don't agree with it, then that's a decision that's yours to make.

Really? You're not going to stone me to death?

Umm ... I still live in the world, so my opinion is still valid on world matters.

But you also live in a delusion.

However, perhaps my opinion on satanism would be a bit one sided ...

YHWH killed thousands times more than Satan in your tall tail mind control manual.

disorder2k8

15-08-2008, 03:32 PM

I think people are allowed to believe what they want, as long as it doesnt promote hate and doesnt get people killed in the name of it.

A lot of religions are out then ..

nirvana

15-08-2008, 04:27 PM

As we live in a kind of matrix nothing is really solid.Everything is just energy.
I work in a homeless hostel .There are plenty of addicts who have been healed with the help of the church.The reason they find healing is because they are able to find a social group where they are accepted.

There are plenty of new age groups that offer support and help to hurt people but they want money up front.

With a born again christian church there is alot of friendship support and great bonds.

People need to have a common bond to unite.This can be buddha,krishna,jesus,david icke,liverpool fc,left wing politics,right wing politics,

Does not matter which god,deity you believe in as its your own faith which builds you up.

The thing that made me turn towards jesus is the chuch is free you can go even if you are skint.You meet lots of comitted people who really want to do something with the community.

One of my friends who is very much into david icke books.Told me last month jesus or christianity is not real.
I told my friend nothing is real except this energy that we live in.Faith helps you direct this energy.

nirvana

15-08-2008, 04:36 PM

Does not matter wether jesus is real or not. The only thing that matters to me is having faith in jesus. Amazing things can happen when you just have faith.You build a focus for the energy in the matrix . I also pop down with my buddhist friend to his centre for zen meditation. :)

bendoon

16-08-2008, 01:12 AM

YHWH killed thousands times more than Satan in your tall tail mind control manual.

Satan and his followers killed around 60 million in Eastern Europe after 1917 and 70 million in China after 1945, get real dude. They now want to enslave you in a new world order, thats after they trim the numbers down to less than 1 billion. Thats the real Satanists who run the UN and all the other Globalist orgs and the EU, not you little wannabe Satanists.

nirvana

16-08-2008, 10:38 AM

Satan and his followers killed around 60 million in Eastern Europe after 1917 and 70 million in China after 1945, get real dude. They now want to enslave you in a new world order, thats after they trim the numbers down to less than 1 billion. Thats the real Satanists who run the UN and all the other Globalist orgs and the EU, not you little wannabe Satanists.

Well said bendoon.The only way we are going to beat this NWO is to unite.At the moment there is alot of people educating themselves about the nwo like a trend but unless we unite .All we are doing is going to go round in circles.
A grassroot movement is what is needed.Alot of people have a vested interest in the nwo. A question why does david icke have his information and books copy righted. While David starbuck does not.

thirdwave

16-08-2008, 10:55 AM

:) It's just the cynic in me coming out to play.

Your correct the source doesn't invalidate the information given and sometimes even helps you to glean additional info about the source that they may not have intended.

I'll read through them both fully later when I have a bit more time.:D

you dont have to be a Satanist to know Christianity is full of shit... and most of the Satanic movements where created because of that fact... the only reason the bibles enemy is used as there icon of worship...

thirdwave

16-08-2008, 10:58 AM

How about rather than trying to expose Christianity as false, why not research Christianity to see if it is true?

LOL

no thanks, I think it has had more than enough lime light and power to exert its self on people.... how about it proves its true for once?... Im not sure how it managed to be the truth by default.... well actually I do... it was made the law.

Satanists serve Christianity by validating it's antagonist.

this is not allways the case... yes there are idiots all over the place... and people who get the wrong end of the stick...

the most common "Satanist" is in fact somone who does see what the bible teaches and knows full well that jusus christ is not real... but also see's how the bible manipulates and oppresses people...

common Satanists also practice magick so also understand that the gods you worship are not real as such but are aspects of energy they are not people....

so there for when they "worship satan" they are basically worshipping the freedoms that it allows them, the ones the bible states as sin and their enemy... (being gay, sodomy... girls being boss.... swearing and drinking.... being selfish when you feel the need to be.... so on, taking drugs.... so on)

its basically two fingers up at the bible.... Im not even sure the evil folk who kill and practice magick go by the label Satanist.... they have been know to go by the name black brothers

*edit for spelling*

boots

16-08-2008, 11:35 AM

Yeah good onya TW.

You don't even know when you makes a post about Christianity being the backbone of common morals and denies that it wasn't what he said.

Yet still play's the left right paradime.. Bible bad, Satan good.

Oh thats right TW, satan doesn't exist:rolleyes: It's just evil doers who worship Satan.

The Bible has been screwed around with for ages but it still contains historical references.

If anyone who has watched a Theological debate will come to the conclusion that what christains debate is the fact as to whether Jesus actually reserected for the cave.

.

thirdwave

16-08-2008, 12:09 PM

thirdwave

16-08-2008, 12:21 PM

I think people are allowed to believe what they want, as long as it doesnt promote hate and doesnt get people killed in the name of it.

A lot of religions are out then ..

Well said!

eternal_spirit

16-08-2008, 12:34 PM

you dont have to be a Satanist to know Christianity is full of shit... and most of the Satanic movements where created because of that fact... the only reason the bibles enemy is used as there icon of worship...

Like you don't have to be a Christian to know satanism is full of it too.

thirdwave

16-08-2008, 12:47 PM

Like you don't have to be a Christian to know satanism is full of it too.

exactly!

boots

16-08-2008, 12:53 PM

Hu??

you have lost me again, you keep doing that!...

no idea what you are talking about..

I know old son, it's hard to keep a memory when you get confused by going on about how christianity is evil and looking into Satanic practices as a way to enlightenment.

Christianity is a dying religion, it's because the preachers let there egos confuse the message of love.

OMFG, do people really need to read a book to understand themselves.

kweli

16-08-2008, 01:06 PM

boots

16-08-2008, 01:21 PM

Sadly, yes Boots.. seems they do.

Funny really when you think about it.

Here are all these people going through their life experiences, reading books about life experiences.

Am I going mad or is the whole world insane.

thirdwave

16-08-2008, 02:22 PM

Christianity is a dying religion,

thank god.

boots

16-08-2008, 02:39 PM

thank god.

Yes I agree TW.

Would you also like to add the OTO and the Church of Satan to that list. TW?;)

thirdwave

16-08-2008, 03:00 PM

Yes I agree TW.

Would you also like to add the OTO and the Church of Satan to that list. TW?;)

In my experience no one has tried to ram OTO down my throat and told me that if I don't get into it My soul will burn and will get lost... So I have no desire to put that on the list thank you...

And I am not really bothered about The Church of Satan either way... its still a dogma but I have not seen it take over any parts of the world as yes...so again not vital to my list.

bgrade_actor

16-08-2008, 04:41 PM

Interesting that the website, yet as usual they have nothing that hasn't been argued before. No real body blows to Christianity there. There is also the small problem of the sovereignty of God. Satanists can winge all they like, however if Jesus is who he says he is he can do as he damn well pleases. The assumptions these guys make is that things will be fair in their eyes. Not so, the Lord said to Moses 'I am who I am' and "i have mercy on whom I have mercy'.

So these satanists can complain all they like however the evidence on the whole would suggest that ultimately they are backing a loser!!

They fail to address the massive amount of prophecy in the bible and the witness of the apostles. Most of them get executed with the option to recant yet they choose to die for what they believe in. If it was a hoax then why would all of them refuse to deny their belief in the face of death?

The website also fails to address the issue of the reformation where the catholics killed many reformed theologians and the guys who wrote the King James Bible. So to say that Catholics represent Christianity they haven't done their homework! The reformers were calling the pope the antichrist at the time so I somehow don't think they would have suggested that the catholic church represents true christianity

thirdwave

16-08-2008, 05:56 PM

So these satanists can complain all they like however the evidence on the whole would suggest that ultimately they are backing a loser!!
How so? .. can you elaborate?

They fail to address the massive amount of prophecy in the bible and the witness of the apostles.
Well its not really a requirement... the bible is made up of loads of different books as well as others books being destroyed of supposed christian content and also other books around the globe of other content.... so any prophecy it holds could have come from anywhere and do not automatically stand for the "bible" ... and of course there are no witness's to show who the apostles really are anyway... no facts at all... only the ones created by the church.

Most of them get executed with the option to recant yet they choose to die for what they believe in. If it was a hoax then why would all of them refuse to deny their belief in the face of death?

Because the idea of the bible is to promote its faith.... so if it shows how people died for it then it shows how strong their faith was.

The website also fails to address the issue of the reformation where the catholics killed many reformed theologians and the guys who wrote the King James Bible. So to say that Catholics represent Christianity they haven't done their homework! The reformers were calling the pope the antichrist at the time so I somehow don't think they would have suggested that the catholic church represents true christianity

this is really intreeging!!... I get told so many times that what we see of christianity is not the real deal ..yadda yadda.... but yet there is nothing to really show for it prior to these attacks on it.... where is the "un fucked with" bible then??.. I am open to read it!....

if your go back before and check out the Cetic cross's and so on... this had nothing to do with Jesus Christ and really came from the Druids.....

So are you saying true Christianity was bascily from the Druids... and they were shat on by the Catholics who turned it into Christianity?

who created the real Christianity then??

amethyst

16-08-2008, 06:44 PM

I know old son, it's hard to keep a memory when you get confused by going on about how christianity is evil and looking into Satanic practices as a way to enlightenment.

Christianity is a dying religion, it's because the preachers let there egos confuse the message of love.

OMFG, do people really need to read a book to understand themselves.

Yep, "religions" are certainly dieing. Man-made religion.

I hope it has a really good burial.

But God is very much alive tho. He is very present and so is His Spirit.

Satan and his followers killed around 60 million in Eastern Europe after 1917 and 70 million in China after 1945, get real dude. They now want to enslave you in a new world order, thats after they trim the numbers down to less than 1 billion. Thats the real Satanists who run the UN and all the other Globalist orgs and the EU, not you little wannabe Satanists.

hehehe "wannabe satanists' :D Delusions of grandeur, eh?

seanx

16-08-2008, 07:18 PM

mcthompson2x

16-08-2008, 08:21 PM

amethyst

16-08-2008, 08:47 PM

The Bible is a program designed to achieve massive control. The way it works is, you create a prophecy, then you fulfill the prophecy. Rinse and repeat! Instant followers, because everyone wants to know they're going to be safe. If you give horrible prophecies about the future and tell Christians that God will protect them if they just believe, they're less willing to fight back, less willing to make the connection between the government and religion, and more willing to do anything they're told that "God" wants them to do in order to stay in line. There are multiple effects on plenty of dimensional levels as the result of this - the real truth doesn't even involve words like "the state" or "politics" - they just want enslavement. Christianity seems pretty obviously designed to enslave people, if you ask me.

The Bible, if read with the help of the Holy Spirit, becomes illuminated to us, in what is written on it's pages. Yes, I said "illuminated" but NOT in a NWO way :D, Just meaning that we will have light shown upon it's words, and those words become living words......

If the scriptures are not illuminated by the Holy Spirit, they are just empty, words on a page with no life in them.

That's why you often see a lot of bible thumpers trying to use scripture to thump a person over the head with words....but what does that accomplish?

But God, being life, and the life-giver, can open a person's understanding and comprehension to what is written in the pages of the Bible, the "Holy" Bible....because it is Holy when God's Spirit breaths on the words, and they become life....and life giving words, as opposed to death giving words.

That is why Jesus Christ said, "I am the way, the truth and the LIFE." (John 14:6)

Jesus also said, "I have come to give life, and life more abundantly."

Plus it also take a dilligent study of scriptures to get an over-all understanding of what really is being said in the words.

I said in another post, that one cannot cherry-pick out one scripture here and there, and say that is means so and so......taking scriptures out of context can cause confusion and misunderstanding of the essence of what it is really saying.

Scripture really should be cross-referenced with other scripture, to get a better over-all understanding often times.

Whole denominations build whole religions out of just one little ole scripture.

Not a good idea.

nirvana

16-08-2008, 10:04 PM

I've seen so many people find peace by having jesus as there focus point. If your skint homeless etc .Then the church is there for you. I've worked in homeless shelters and some people have got that low that I did'nt think they would ever find peace.

One guy I know tomo prime example{not his real name} had lived on the streets for 10yrs chronic alcoholic.He had a very abusive childhood. I had'nt seen him for 3 yrs.Then this guy in a suit stopped to talk to me .It was tomo he had become a christian and got married.And had a baby on the way.

He told me since he became a christian he has had so much support a whole net work of friends etc.

Most of us are so into finding all this hidden knowledge that we are going further away from ourselves.

The most important thing is infinite love everything else is illusion. Jesus helps by strengthening your energy field and makes a very good psychic defence.

mcthompson2x

16-08-2008, 11:30 PM

I'm not saying that the orthodox church doesn't do good things, or that Christians aren't good people or anything like that. I am also not condemning the Bible outright - but I think when people assume that the entire Bible was divinely inspired when they really have no basis except for the assertion of the Catholic Church, then they are making a dangerous mistake. I have too found peace through Christ and I believe that when Christ said that the only way to God is through him, I think he meant that the only way to God is by attuning to his vibrational frequency or becoming like Christ. When he claimed he was the "Son of Man" he meant that he was an example of the next stage of human evolution. I also believe his miracles were entirely able to be reproduced up to even the present day authentically. I don't think he was an illusionist or anything like that. He was put here to be an example. Just my opinion though.

I do know that I would never trust anything that the Catholic Church assembled to be the absolute truth, because the Catholic Church has always served as more of a political organization than a spiritual one. The Baptists who broke from the Catholic line still read essentially the same book and bow to the same sort of doctrinal authority that people always have. The books left out of the Bible - many of which deal with Christ more than the official scripture ever does - ring a lot more true to me than most of the cunning manipulations and double-talk that is rampant through "the good book." There is no getting around how barbaric and archaic a lot of Biblical law is.

amethyst

17-08-2008, 01:24 AM

mcthompson2x

17-08-2008, 03:01 AM

But who was saying anything about the Catholic church mcthompson, mcthompson?

Not a criticism, but I always find it funny that when someone discusses Christianity, that one assumes you are discussing the Catholic church.

That just shows me how entrenched that false religious system really is in our society......

But man made systems really do eventually crumble.

But I am saying that what is known as the universal "Holy Bible" - even the King James version, even the version that most mainstream Christians read - was decided upon at the Council of Nicene for purely political reasons. There are a lot of true texts in the Bible, that is for sure - but there are also a lot of false texts, and a lot of conflicting evidence regarding the nature of God. The Bible is untrustworthy as a pure source of information, it was tainted by the hands of men long ago. The Catholic Church is responsible for nearly all mainstream religious practice today, as the "Holy Bible" containing both the Old Testament and the New Testament was written to instill fear into people for purpose of maintaining control. Even Christians today believe that God must be believed in a certain way or Hell awaits. This was dreamed up by Catholics and is the perfect psychological indoctrination tool. The Bible promotes an awful lot of fear and division.

thirdwave

17-08-2008, 03:08 AM

But God is very much alive tho. He is very present and so is His Spirit.

but this is all fair enough... but you don't know for a fact he is alive... or that there is only one god.... you know nothing as fact its just your faith.... which is fair enough... but why do peoples faiths have to effect the world?

how do you know your god treats others the same as he treats you... in fact how do you know its a "HE"?

why is it a "HE"?, are you submitting to the fact that male is god and female is second?

how do you know there are not lots of gods covering different aspects?

thirdwave

17-08-2008, 03:24 AM

I've seen so many people find peace by having jesus as there focus point. If your skint homeless etc .Then the church is there for you. I've worked in homeless shelters and some people have got that low that I did'nt think they would ever find
peace.

So does tht make it good?

that people have to be so low to be desperate enough for something to give them peace of mind?... does that not expose it for what it is... what it offers?
why do they need to me homeless and skint to see the truth in the bible? ... because they are so low on faith and so upset with life that they are get down on their knees and submit to it... that's what!

this is how it works....

One guy I know tomo prime example{not his real name} had lived on the streets for 10yrs chronic alcoholic.He had a very abusive childhood. I had'nt seen him for 3 yrs.Then this guy in a suit stopped to talk to me .It was tomo he had become a christian and got married.And had a baby on the way.
That does not mean that Christ saved him though... it means he understood that if you focus and put faith into something it works....

that's not being disputed... any god can be of value if you believe it will save you... its when you start believing that not believing in it will hurt you... that's where it starts to fuck things up...

believing in any spirit or saviour is healthy... thats why people do it... there is obviously something taken from it.... but that does not mean its man kinds salvation...

if you look at people who only care about football and beer and watching big brother on TV... and thats there spiritual interaction then sure Christianity is a big step up the ladder...

but if you think that if everyone does that it was stop a NWO and save humanity then IMO you are very wrong.

its just like introducing a depressed person to heroin, and giving them enough hits to see them through...

Most of us are so into finding all this hidden knowledge that we are going further away from ourselves.

I agree with that.

The most important thing is infinite love everything else is illusion. Jesus helps by strengthening your energy field and makes a very good psychic defence.

If he does this for some great... he does not do this for me.... and the vast majority of his followers preach that others will suffer hell for not worshipping Jesus.... and if there are a few who see him different then fine... but they are very much the minority and have only really made them selves hear in very recent years after the religion has been exposed so much.... where were they many years ago ?

bgrade_actor

17-08-2008, 03:48 AM

Guys you obviously have not read much of the bible given much of the above comments.

Firstly Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this earth. It is not about building up a world empire. Satan offered Jesus the world empire if he would join his side. Jesus refused saying worship God only. So if you think that Christianity is about world domination you are sadly wrong. Consider the following:

Matthew 6:19 Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Jesus speaks of a kingdom not of this earth. Life eternal. He says to his followers that they will be killed, flogged and persecuted. He is not about building a empire in this world.

Secondly forget the Catholic Church. They do not have much creditability in terms of offering what the bible says. As I said before there was a reformation hundreds of years ago in which people moved towards what the bible said and away from what the church said. How about having a read of the bible in its entirety then offering criticism rather than just arguing on hearsay or 'theories'

mcthompson2x

17-08-2008, 04:09 AM

Secondly forget the Catholic Church. They do not have much creditability in terms of offering what the bible says. As I said before there was a reformation hundreds of years ago in which people moved towards what the bible said and away from what the church said. How about having a read of the bible in its entirety then offering criticism rather than just arguing on hearsay or 'theories'

You can't randomly discredit people who you know nothing about merely because you can't see a reason why they would be right. You have no idea whether or not I have read the Bible in it's entirety and in fact, I have. All I am doing is putting forth the idea that the Bible has been used to control massive amounts of people and that the Holy Bible in particular was arranged and given "divine authority" by the Catholic Church. Those who believe the Church was reformed really didn't reform any of part of the actual Bible that the Catholic Church created in the first place, they merely reinterpreted parts of it and ignored other parts of it. I am not going on hearsay at all, I have done plenty of research. You shouldn't assume things about people.

The Catholic Church arranged the Holy Bible and that is a well-known fact. Early Christianity was very different and the Catholic Church only exists because at some point it sided with the Roman empire and decided to dominate other religions/sects of Christianity. It burnt vast amounts of knowledge of Christ and other spiritual concepts and considered heresy anything that didn't fit into the grand political scheme of things. Whether Christians today believe it or not, the stigma that the Catholic Church placed on many ideas through it's vehicle, the Holy Bible, all still exist and all still control our culture today.

amethyst

17-08-2008, 04:40 AM

but this is all fair enough... but you don't know for a fact he is alive... or that there is only one god.... you know nothing as fact its just your faith.... which is fair enough... but why do peoples faiths have to effect the world?

how do you know your god treats others the same as he treats you... in fact how do you know its a "HE"?

why is it a "HE"?, are you submitting to the fact that male is god and female is second?

how do you know there are not lots of gods covering different aspects?

Hmmm....do you really want me to answer you TW or are you just "taking the piss" like you Brits say?

You've already said (several times) what you think about Jesus.

bgrade_actor

17-08-2008, 05:17 AM

Those who believe the Church was reformed really didn't reform any of part of the actual Bible that the Catholic Church created in the first place

No I am sorry that is incorrect. Again I suggest reading some reformation history.

Tyndale Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The catholics had a version of the bible which came from latin. The reformers got hold of the original greek and hebrew scripts and then translated the English and a German bible from that. The Catholic church was none to impressed by what the new bible had to say and tried in many ways to ban it. They were unsuccessful.

Tyndale's goal was to make a version of the bible accessible to common person in the street and bypass the control of the catholic church not to build some big empire. And this is why the catholic church tried to wipe out the reformers. The Reformers were a threat to the established church just as Jesus was a threat to the Pharisees.

I agree with you that the bible has been used by the catholic church to stand over people, however don't think that this is a reflection of what Jesus was on about or what real Christianity is. If you think that the Pope and the Catholic church represent Christianity then you have been deceived.

auroral_iris

17-08-2008, 05:22 AM

first off ...why the fuck are you on a DAVID ICKE WEBSITE when your a christian...i already think youre dumb enough to believe this fairy tale of a book that cites no proof in it other than words on a piece of paper inside of it,
but do you listen to anything david says...clearly not

silly christians...whenever asked for proof their response is either READ THE BIBLE
or
HAVE FAITH

the bible isnt proof, just like joes retarded CLEARLY fake book of morman isnt proof that he found gold plates and seer stones and translated it

RELIGION IS MEANS OF CONTROLLING ON A MASS SCALE

IT RUINS SPIRTUALITY

BRAINWASHES YOU

i feel sorry for christians and other religious fanatics alike..you clearly cannot think for yourselfs and have ZERO common sense

jayelowell

17-08-2008, 05:38 AM

pretty harsh! understand that we are here to spread love & truth! if you guys want some insite on christiantiy then click on the link in my thread! thier storys are not always incorrect some spin off of summerian storys!

seekingthetruth

17-08-2008, 05:51 AM

the bible isnt proof,

Not true ...

Saying that the bible isn't a valid form of proof is like saying you can't look into the white house to see if the president is in the white house.

By reading the bible you can see the various prophesies that have been fulfilled in the past, and prophesies that are still being fulfilled to this day. You can also see historical references on the life of not only Jesus but other Biblical characters (Including the Disciples) that are also proven in other historical texts besides the Bible, you can see the geneologies of every tribe that has ever lived on earth, not too mention accurate descriptions of the earth, time, and space before it had even been proven by science ...

That's why it is important to actually read the Bible before getting into a discussion such as this ...

thirdwave

17-08-2008, 10:39 AM

Guys you obviously have not read much of the bible given much of the above comments.

No, its just the bible can be made into what ever you want it to be as it is packed full of contradictions....

Firstly Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this earth. It is not about building up a world empire. Satan offered Jesus the world empire if he would join his side. Jesus refused saying worship God only. So if you think that Christianity is about world domination you are sadly wrong. Consider the following:

Yes but that is all irrelevances because it can be made into what you want to make of it and he has clearly said other things which does and did create world domination..

Jesus speaks of a kingdom not of this earth. Life eternal. He says to his followers that they will be killed, flogged and persecuted. He is not about building a empire in this world.

Yes but its how you get to that kingdom where the issues come in.

Secondly forget the Catholic Church. They do not have much creditability in terms of offering what the bible says. As I said before there was a reformation hundreds of years ago in which people moved towards what the bible said and away from what the church said. How about having a read of the bible in its entirety then offering criticism rather than just arguing on hearsay or 'theories'

I and many others have read it.... no use just pointing the finger at the Catholic church all of a sudden.... the bible is the bible... Jesus Christ was either Jesus Christ or he was not....

the Catholic church was just set up.... as other movements have been set up built on the bible..

thirdwave

17-08-2008, 10:43 AM

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Hmmm....do you really want me to answer you TW or are you just "taking the piss" like you Brits say?

No im just saying... you have no evidence he was who the bible says, its just your faith....

You've already said (several times) what you think about Jesus.

Yes because I feel a presents of bible bashing on the forum so like to challenge it as I feel it is not truth.

thirdwave

17-08-2008, 10:53 AM

Im not saying that people should not believe in Jesus Christ and what not.... if that's what makes them feel saved then fair enough...

its just the reflection it normally creates on others, and all the judgement it creates.., and the way that they don't highlight the fact that it all comes down to their faith... which everyone is entitles to choose where their faith goes.

boots

17-08-2008, 12:17 PM

In my experience no one has tried to ram OTO down my throat and told me that if I don't get into it My soul will burn and will get lost... So I have no desire to put that on the list thank you...

And I am not really bothered about The Church of Satan either way... its still a dogma but I have not seen it take over any parts of the world as yes...so again not vital to my list.

Hang on there TW, I think your letting your own personal belief get in the way of commonsense.

It is unfair that people have rammed, there interpretation of something on to us from when we are born, but as we grow older and hopefully wiser we can't let that judgment, cloud our future.

In an interpretation of getting outside of "the boxes", that we create for ourselves, I thought you would have added these thing to the list.

I think, that you are generalizing with the statement you made regarding the Christians taking over the world, as opposed to the church of satan and other religions, it is just a construct of the Western media, that catholicism is the main world religion.

thirdwave

17-08-2008, 12:32 PM

Hang on there TW, I think your letting your own personal belief get in the way of commonsense.

It is unfair that people have rammed, there interpretation of something on to us from when we are born, but as we grow older and hopefully wiser we can't let that judgment, cloud our future.

In an interpretation of getting outside of "the boxes", that we create for ourselves, I thought you would have added these thing to the list.

Well you would have thought very wrong... and Im not letting my personal belife get in the way at all as I don't believe in Christianity and I don't believe in Satanism... So I have no idea what you are talking about..

I never let it cloud my judgement I simply new it was full of shit, however, many people eat it .... and the society is been created on top of it....

Name me one part of our education system that forces people to learn about Satanism or learn about the OTO.... in a glorified sense?

these are free movements where one chooses to go and join them or not and is not judged for others movments they may choose to take part in... apart from movements that decide to attack them of course (which is only natural)

... they don't go to peoples Doors and preach, they keep them selves to them selves and let other people make there own mind up if they are of value.

this is why I have no malice against what they do.... I can take of leave them....

and its why they are not on my list...

I think, that you are generalizing with the statement you made regarding the Christians taking over the world, as opposed to the church of satan and other religions, it is just a construct of the Western media, that catholicism is the main world religion.

to an extent yes... but you are just looking for excuses... the bible teaches what it teaches... yes some have taken extremes of certain aspects of it...and others decide to focus on other parts of the book.... but its all from the same book and the book is what is behind Christianity... Im not talking about catholic's... Im talking about the bible... the bases of Christianity and the only thing people have to go by on it.... 1 god.. 1 path.

boots

17-08-2008, 12:32 PM

Yep, "religions" are certainly dieing. Man-made religion.

I hope it has a really good burial.

But God is very much alive tho. He is very present and so is His Spirit.

I hope, that will be a respectful burial, for these man-made religions.

God/creator is very much alive amethyst, not only in spirit but in our souls for imo, we are the creators, but we just don't really know it.

BTW, didn't Mohammed, say that Jesus was a prophet.;)

boots

17-08-2008, 01:07 PM

Alright, my mis-interpretation with the word, MY. sorry.

They don't have religion as a part of the education system unless people chose to send their kids to those schools,:rolleyes: If people wanted to send there kids to learn the hidden mysteries of geometry and mathematic then they would be able to find them somewhere, not to some organizations that represent Satan and negative aspects of moral conducts. Any way it just the other side of the coin:rolleyes:

If you want to start going on about how the OTO and other shit has no negative aspects to it. I'll just PM ES and save me the hassle.

The Bible has been messed with for ages, so even your interpretation of it would be clouded, as would mine. but having said that there aspects of it that are good psychological ways of bring peace to the world.

I would take a big fat texta to it and blot out the other shit.

bgrade_actor

17-08-2008, 01:24 PM

No, its just the bible can be made into what ever you want it to be as it is packed full of contradictions....

Sure name 10 then chapter and verse. But please be in context.

and he has clearly said other things which does and did create world domination..

Where? Show me chapter and verse and in context of the passage where Jesus says he is about overthrowing governments and world domination in this world.

Yes but its how you get to that kingdom where the issues come in

I suggest you pickup a King James or American Standard or Revised Standard and just have a read of the New Testament. The whole point of the New Testament is to answer that very question you asked. People 2000 years ago ask Jesus that very question and he answered them plainly.

As I said above the King James bible was written in a manner so that it could be clearly understood by the man on the street. So if it was possible 4oo years ago I'm sure it's possible today. It ain't that difficult if you want to really find out what it is all about.

nirvana

17-08-2008, 01:47 PM

nirvana

17-08-2008, 01:52 PM

but this is all fair enough... but you don't know for a fact he is alive... or that there is only one god.... you know nothing as fact its just your faith.... which is fair enough... but why do peoples faiths have to effect the world?

how do you know your god treats others the same as he treats you... in fact how do you know its a "HE"?

why is it a "HE"?, are you submitting to the fact that male is god and female is second?

how do you know there are not lots of gods covering different aspects?

God is alive, god is a vibration that over the years jesus,buddha,krishna, etc tapped into.Jesus is a way to strengthen your vibrational energy field.Plus a away where good people can unite.

emerald

17-08-2008, 01:53 PM

eternal_spirit

17-08-2008, 02:11 PM

Good post Emerlad, I don't think any of the religions have anything to do with a God or creator and think all of them were the words of men not God.

auroral_iris

17-08-2008, 05:43 PM

element

17-08-2008, 06:31 PM

the day the world is rid of religion, there will be peace i swear

What about all those torturers, rapers, criminals, abusers, liars, cheaters and killers that are not religious.(which are many)

I'm not defending it, but you're overrating your point.

eternal_spirit

17-08-2008, 06:41 PM

amethyst

17-08-2008, 06:41 PM

I hope, that will be a respectful burial, for these man-made religions.

God/creator is very much alive amethyst, not only in spirit but in our souls for imo, we are the creators, but we just don't really know it.

BTW, didn't Mohammed, say that Jesus was a prophet.;)

It might sound presumptuous on my part, speaking for God (maybe not to you eh?) but I think God wants man-made religion to have a proper burial........He wants man-made, man-centered, fraudulent religion DEAD AND BURIED.

Why do I say that?

Because there is a story written about Jesus in three different places in Matthew 21:13, Mark 11:17, and Luke 19:46. Some background: Scripture in Mark 11:15-17 says that:

"Jesus went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.

And He would not allow anyone to carry wares through the temple.

Then He taught, saying to them, "Is it not written, 'My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations'? But you have made it a 'den of thieves.'"

Jesus was angry about what these people were doing with "religion" in His name. Namely, stealing, cheating and defrauding people in the name of God and in the name of "religion"........He was angry about it........and rightly so IMO.

And I think we are living in a day when "religion" is being turned on it's head.

amethyst

17-08-2008, 06:45 PM

Element true there are some good morals taught in religions that can benefit. It could be why Christianity was invented by men to prodcue a more moralistic/cohesive system/society which is mostly based on the family unit.

The "religion" of Christianty was invented by man.

Jesus the Christos is and came from God.

nirvana

17-08-2008, 07:20 PM

historical texts arent proof, sorry...but if looking at the bible is proof enough..reading a story about santa claus is proof enough
reading a story about snow white is proof enough..don't you understand that history has been rewritten to suite the shadowy elites goals...and your not doing 'gods work' coming on here and defending your religion..because there is no 'God' everyone is god

the day the world is rid of religion, there will be peace i swear

I dont need to defend my faith.Yes agree we are all god we are all part of this same energy. Whats proof whats not proof.Look everything yes everything is illusion.Jesus is a focus point for me its the best psychic protection i have.
Why is there so much anger over this subject? Angry when nothing is real except that which you give faith to lol.
I have no argument with other faiths .
The main thing is infinite love is everything everything else is illusion.

eternal_spirit

17-08-2008, 07:27 PM

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33342

thirdwave

17-08-2008, 08:14 PM

Sure name 10 then chapter and verse. But please be in context.

Where? Show me chapter and verse and in context of the passage where Jesus says he is about overthrowing governments and world domination in this world.

I suggest you pickup a King James or American Standard or Revised Standard and just have a read of the New Testament. The whole point of the New Testament is to answer that very question you asked. People 2000 years ago ask Jesus that very question and he answered them plainly.

As I said above the King James bible was written in a manner so that it could be clearly understood by the man on the street. So if it was possible 4oo years ago I'm sure it's possible today. It ain't that difficult if you want to really find out what it is all about.

I cant be bothered now to go fishing for the texts, only for you to try and tell me what they "really" mean...... I am telling you what I have seen ... you don't have to except it... defend your faith as much as you like... think what you like

I just happen to think Christianity is a pile of crap, and means nothing to be whats so ever..... and Jesus Christ means as much to me as Spiderman does.... he is not my god and I do not see him as my or the words salvation...

and I did not say Jesus said he was about over throwing governments.... he is not going to come out in the bible saying that anyway.... I am talking about what the bible has done... the bible did not over throw the "government", the "government" created it.... different versions of it... and before that the old testament was also a product of manipulation...

yes there are segments in it that are obviously written by wise people who are spiritually aware.... but I see it as you are trying to make a fruit punch better by trying to pick out all the stale apple bits.... when its not going to make it taste allot better...

thirdwave

17-08-2008, 08:22 PM

God is alive, god is a vibration that over the years jesus,buddha,krishna, etc tapped into.Jesus is a way to strengthen your vibrational energy field.Plus a away where good people can unite.

We are all god... all aspects of god.... god is nothing but conciousness... the deeper that conciousness goes the closer you are to god.. (your self)... (thats probably what Jesus used to say had he existed)
well IF Jesus was real... then yes, he would have been among many other profits who had something to say.... and at the time was probably very inspirational and was killed by the same old people...

and if you really want to strengthen your vibrational energy field you dont do it by worshipping another... you do it be learning to do so your self.... we are all "sons of god" ...

and if you have to share a god with someone to be able to unite with others then you got lots of work to do.

people should be able to unite with the knowledge that we are all different but all are the same and we all have our own paths to walk...

If Jesus was alive today and if he was a real person in his time, then he would be pretty disappointed.

but the bottom line is, the guy was meant to have died 2000 years ago, might his views now be a tad bit dated?

thirdwave

17-08-2008, 08:25 PM

Oh, yes, another useless thread at its best, as if this matter wasnt discussed countless times before on this forum, but whatever. Mabe we like to repeat ourselves, who knows. Anyway, as useless as it is, at least it should have had a more appropriate name: EXPOSING RELIGIONS, for all religions are shit, no matter how many defend them, no matter the means they do it. But old habits die hard, isnt it? So hard to understand that all is nothing but a hologram and that we have been misled as hell.

Its a part of David Ickes works.... whether you agree with it or don't... what subjects would you expect to come from an Icke forum? .... badminton?

religion is a huge part in the manipulating that has gone on for thousands of years... and still goes on today....

and there are many people here to still cling to it as if its salvation... which is very relevant IMO.

bottom line is, if christians come here then they should not expect to have there bible paced on red cushion!, there are LOADS of forums out there that will do that for them.

nirvana

17-08-2008, 10:11 PM

We are all god... all aspects of god.... god is nothing but conciousness... the deeper that conciousness goes the closer you are to god.. (your self)... (thats probably what Jesus used to say had he existed)
well IF Jesus was real... then yes, he would have been among many other profits who had something to say.... and at the time was probably very inspirational and was killed by the same old people...

and if you really want to strengthen your vibrational energy field you dont do it by worshipping another... you do it be learning to do so your self.... we are all "sons of god" ...

and if you have to share a god with someone to be able to unite with others then you got lots of work to do.

people should be able to unite with the knowledge that we are all different but all are the same and we all have our own paths to walk...

If Jesus was alive today and if he was a real person in his time, then he would be pretty disappointed.

but the bottom line is, the guy was meant to have died 2000 years ago, might his views now be a tad bit dated?

My faith in jesus has helped me it has given me support when nearly becomming homeless.I've seen addicts find peace when they have found jesus.The church that I go to is very active in the community.If people were open we would not need the church.
My faith in jesus comes from the knowledge that everything is illusion its just a matrix and we are trapped by our energy vibration. love and peace make this vibration higher.If the born again christian church is increasing peace and love on its congregation.Then the vibration is stronger.
It does not matter wether jesus is real or not its your faith that makes it real.
Maybe I'm not the run off the mill christian.My parents were into buddhism vajrayana.So I was into tantric practice as a kid.
Maybe jesus is my tantric deity.:)

thirdwave

17-08-2008, 10:33 PM

My faith in jesus has helped me it has given me support when nearly becomming homeless.

that's great news! ... But that faith in Jesus does not work for all... it depends on what a person needs, I always find it odd how "Jesus" seems to save people when they are down though.. why does it take for that to happen?...

we are all different, many things are good for some and not good for others...

He is simply someone who you managed to use to create stability in your life... you did not really need him but the thought of something so powerful supporting you made you support your self... Jesus did not do it...you did.

and with all due respect there are women in the middle east who claim to be saved by Allah... and while expressing this they are covered up and dare not show an inch of flesh...

So ones faith in what has saved them does not allways prove anything to me ..

I've seen addicts find peace when they have found jesus.The church that I go to is very active in the community.If people were open we would not need the church.

I see it as submitting to it... I have also seem people turn to "Jesus" ..a guy i know who was put inside for dealing.... had a horrible time, was by no means a crook, just a bad faze and bad luck... he came out all into Jesus... I gave him a couple books and told him that it was cool that he had decided to start to have a look at life more.... but he was not looking very far.... he is now into much more than Christianity... and although he has not told me he has turned away from Jesus... he is by no means a christian any more...

He knows that what saved him was not Jesus... but his own soul waking from the nightmare and seeing a little more than he saw before.

The only thing is he had bought into a faith that did not come free, when there was loads of faiths free of charge.

Its allways a good thing to see people be able to help them selves, But it does not mean that Jesus was the only saviour they could get ... and again its not what Jesus does for people I have a problem with... its what he supposedly does not do for other certain people.

My faith in jesus comes from the knowledge that everything is illusion its just a matrix and we are trapped by our energy vibration. love and peace make this vibration higher.If the born again christian church is increasing peace and love on its congregation.Then the vibration is stronger.
It does not matter wether jesus is real or not its your faith that makes it real.

ahh well you are speaking sense here!

but Im commenting on the bible... not individual views and faiths in Jesus...

Maybe I'm not the run off the mill christian.My parents were into buddhism vajrayana.So I was into tantric practice as a kid.
Maybe jesus is my tantric deity.:)
thats what it sounds like to me, and there is of course nothing wrong with at all.... in fact sounds very healthy to me.

bgrade_actor

18-08-2008, 01:53 AM

Isn't it amazing that everyone wants to rubbish the bible but when it comes specifics there's not much left in the tank.

zen_fox

18-08-2008, 02:09 AM

Actually, it does. It's pretty obvious that Satanists are bias against Christianity, and therefore cannot be trusted in this manner. Naturally if there was any actual evidence that was exposing Christianity to be false, then it wouldn't matter if they were Satanist or not ... but that's not the case in this situation.

As a matter of fact, I have an idea that might help ...

How about rather than trying to expose Christianity as false, why not research Christianity to see if it is true?

atheism

mcthompson2x

18-08-2008, 02:21 AM

Isn't it amazing that everyone wants to rubbish the bible but when it comes specifics there's not much left in the tank.

There is plenty of evidence all over the internet and also all throughout the real world. You're the one who needs to be seeing whether or not the things said about your religion are true - after all, you're the one who practices it! Maybe people have run out of gas when it comes to going over why Christianity is a program designed to enslave massive amounts of people, or maybe everyone's just realized that the only time a Christian will ever thoroughly research his/her own religion is when s/he finally gets around to doing it. No amount of evidence will convince someone who doesn't want to believe what's being told to him, but if you want evidence anyway, it's everywhere. Why don't you just Google it? Do you think that people who aren't Christians want to reinforce over and over again why Christianity is a false religion? I can tell you most of these people don't even need to rely on "evidence" to determine what Christianity tells people to do. It's all in the book itself.

I think the Bible discredits itself entirely, and I'm probably not the only person.

bgrade_actor

18-08-2008, 10:15 AM

I do actually look at other religions and belief systems and see what other have to say then look at the bible. The problem is the bible is very hard to discredit if you want to get down to details. However there is the issue. People don't want to look at details. They want to make broad sweeping statements about how irrelevant and untrue it is without taking a closer look. I love how you guys are so blasé about having read the bible yet are so ignorant of what it says and the basic errors in your theories. It genuinely astounds me at the level of ignorance abound and the willingness to just wipe out the whole bible with sweeping statements. I'm not here to convert anyone I just want to truth to be put out there and given a fair hearing, what you do with it is your choice. Yet for people who are suppose to be critically minded and looking at things from a different perspective, the high level of ignorance is astonishing!

thirdwave

18-08-2008, 10:28 AM

Isn't it amazing that everyone wants to rubbish the bible but when it comes specifics there's not much left in the tank.

oh come of it...

like specifics make any difference.. I have had the same coversation/Argument over and over which bible bashers and I have learnt that it does not even matter if you have all the facts in the world... their faith will always win.

I mean for a start it only takes common sense to see the bible is a symbolic book and is full of Metaphors, and is not a Factual based book....

There are clearly real people brought up in the book, but the simple fact that these peoples lives are so vague and un known (for such powerful influential people) is as suspect as you want to get.. not to mention the rediculus time frames of the whole thing...

half the people involved represent thousands of people, and others are probebley 30 peoples lives rolled into one...

I realised this at a very early age...

Yes there have been prophets through time who have enlightened people and taught them...

but this has nothing to do with them being the light and the sun of god... and our saviour... there have been many of them ..and there are many around today...

you do not find enlightenment in another person.... you have to find it your self.... you can take inspiration from others but you are your own person and everyone's spiritual quest is different.

there for one set of rules may not work so well for one as it will for the other, ones mans enlightenment is another oppression..

for example... if there is a man who has sexually oppressed and he joins the church of satan and manages to rid him self of all his oppressive habits and guilt and go around expressing him self sexually with a free mind...

He will then view the church of Satan as the saviour...

But if there is a man who has pushes his sexual ventures as far as he wants, has grown bored and lost... does not know where to turn and now feels very alone with love.... and he is introduced to Jesus Christ who puts disoplin back into his life and 1 aspect to focus on .. then he may well "see the light" and find his saviour....

it would not shock me if the word Christ used to mean "Conciousness" .

and that "Jesus Conciousness" was experienced by many before him..and many after.

eternal_spirit

18-08-2008, 02:31 PM

Element true there are some good morals taught in religions that can benefit. It could be why Christianity was invented by men to produce a more moralistic/cohesive system/society which is mostly based on the family unit. Some of the commandments achieve this, if put into action.

The New testament they dropped circumcision, removed most of the angry God Yaweh stuff, and if the Bible came from Pagan sources (seems likely) they dropped the public human and animal sacrafices.

So, compare this to Koran (both sexes circumcised) Judaism etc Talmud/Old Testament-Circumcision

Those born into the New testament version of Christianity are the luckiest of all the religions IMO. Much more freedoms.

eternal_spirit

18-08-2008, 02:39 PM

quote: thirdwave

for example... if there is a man who has sexually oppressed and he joins the church of satan and manages to rid him self of all his oppressive habits and guilt and go around expressing him self sexually with a free mind...

He will then view the church of Satan as the saviour...

.........................

Christians aren't sexually repressed to begin with. And most dont follow and aren't forced to follow many rules-Compared to other religions, this is the case in the UK and from my own experiences.

I wonder what country or planet you live on sometimes Wavey.

Weird doo dah Wave, you really believe that nonsense if someone joins the Satanic Church.

Satanism has far more rituals rules etc IMO.

thirdwave

18-08-2008, 03:14 PM

To clarify to the rest of the thread..

I did not make a statement that Christians where sexualy repressed (I am not ignorant enough as to make such a generalisation)

... my example was about expressing how different "gods" and faiths can enlighten some and not others...

which is why I feel Freedom is paramount, and that no faith should demonise another. After all, what is the need?.... promotion of ones own faith should be enough... unless the faith is not strong enough.

amethyst

18-08-2008, 08:14 PM

Ya know how David Icke talks about discernment? Well, that's how you have to read the Bible: with a discerning eye, looking for golden nuggets that speak to you in particular situations.

If you look at it that way, suddenly it becomes more clear and you see the wisdom of it's contents often times.

And ask the Holy Spirit to make what the Bible is saying to you, clear and understandable.

thirdwave

18-08-2008, 08:39 PM

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Ya know how David Icke talks about discernment? Well, that's how you have to read the Bible: with a discerning eye, looking for golden nuggets that speak to you in particular situations.

Yes I know what he means with discernment... and I also know what he means when he knows full well that religion is not about spiritual evolution... its about manipulation.... you only need to look at things with discernment when you are hungry for that knowledge.

But I dont need to look for its "golden nuggets"... if you want to go nugget hunting then great but it does not mean its what humanity should be doing...

name me 3 things you would ne be aware of if it was not for the bible?

If you look at it that way, suddenly it becomes more clear and you see the wisdom of it's contents often times.
Well if it works for you then cool....

And ask the Holy Spirit to make what the Bible is saying to you, clear and understandable.
I dont want to ask the Holy Spirit for anything though, as it is not relevant to me... would you ask an invisible presence that I told you was there for help?

mcthompson2x

18-08-2008, 11:53 PM

The New testament they dropped circumcision, removed most of the angry God Yaweh stuff, and if the Bible came from Pagan sources (seems likely) they dropped the public human and animal sacrafices.

So, compare this to Koran (both sexes circumcised) Judaism etc Talmud/Old Testament-Circumcision

Those born into the New testament version of Christianity are the luckiest of all the religions IMO. Much more freedoms.

I don't get this argument. It's like saying that being a slave for one master is better than another, because at least the first master is nicer. Or like saying that being a slave is better than being dead. Just because the New Testament is nicer than the Koran doesn't mean the New Testament is nice. Paul is very negative and authoritative.

thirdwave

19-08-2008, 12:13 AM

I don't get this argument. It's like saying that being a slave for one master is better than another, because at least the first master is nicer. Or like saying that being a slave is better than being dead. Just because the New Testament is nicer than the Koran doesn't mean the New Testament is nice. Paul is very negative and authoritative.

Good points... but the new testament is not really nicer, just more civilised and less over powering today due to PEOPLE evolving, with less and less people paying it respect it has not had a choice other than to mellow out... I think people kind of got sick of it.... In the middle east they do not have the same society we have and religion is still very much dominant over there, but anyone thinks that our society is more free thanks to Christianity or any other religion is wrong!....

It had its day of killing and murder and awful things just as all of them have had... Women were oppressed other belief systems punished... and people stoned and burnt alive .... its just they like to say that those where not real christians... but of course all the other corrupted texts and evil acts of other religions are all %100 the real deal....

eternal_spirit

19-08-2008, 12:24 AM

mcthompson2x

19-08-2008, 12:33 AM

Are you nuts or Jewish. It's difference between gential mutilation of babies and woman some of these die from this barbaric practice.

I'm neither, I'm "gnostic" I guess and I believe that Jesus Christ was put here to set an example in order to teach human beings how to evolve, same thing with Buddha and other world figures.

I have been persecuted by "compassionate Christians" for my entire life and regardless of what others might say, the Bible actually does justify such persecution. Including the New Testament. I'm not nuts at all, I don't know why what I said doesn't make sense. Do I have to belong to a religion to know which religions are wrong (all of them)?

You know what would be better than ending circumcision, would be ending all completely stupid and arbitrary religious rules.

eternal_spirit

19-08-2008, 12:39 AM

Good points... but the new testament is not really nicer, just more civilised and less over powering today due to PEOPLE evolving, with less and less people paying it respect it has not had a choice other than to mellow out... I think people kind of got sick of it.... In the middle east they do not have the same society we have and religion is still very much dominant over there, but anyone thinks that our society is more free thanks to Christianity or any other religion is wrong!....

It had its day of killing and murder and awful things just as all of them have had... Women were oppressed other belief systems punished... and people stoned and burnt alive .... its just they like to say that those where not real christians... but of course all the other corrupted texts and evil acts of other religions are all %100 the real deal....

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11930

thirdwave

19-08-2008, 12:55 AM

Like I say... all religion is used to divide and concur... and to create war...

they did not have cameras in the old days but the christians certainly did not become the most powerful religion in the world by being nice to people
...

http://myego.cz/img/1/20041114-inquisition.jpg

http://www.theblackboxspeaks.org/images/cathars-mass-buring.jpg

http://smartpei.typepad.com/trusted_space_books/images/300pxcranmer_burning_foxe_1.jpg

http://www.radicaltorahthought.com/Inquisitional%20Book%20Burning.jpg

http://www.rogerwendell.com/images/proselytizing/christians_burning_witches.jpg

http://hemi.nyu.edu/archive/studentwork/colony/auto/inquisition_-_burning_woman.jpg

bgrade_actor

19-08-2008, 01:54 AM

mcthompson2x

19-08-2008, 03:48 AM

Don't link the actions of the Roman Catholic Church with real Christianity.
Don't forget it was the reformers who started the ball rolling out of the dark ages by standing up for the truth and showing that the Catholic Church Teaching wasn't inline with what the bible says The reformers challenged the authority of the church with the authority of bible.

The Church responded by trying to kill many of the reformers. So do not broad brush the bible and the catholic church. Protestant theology is about saying the bible is the sole authority and that the Catholic church is not. The catholics were killing the people who wrote the non catholic bibles because it undermined their power base. Yet the reformers didn't fight they were slaughtered by the 1000 just like many of their contemporaries in the years gone by. People were burnt at the stake praying to God, refusing to recant. They knew that the church was wrong and they stood by the bible to the death. If that isn't a testimony that's gets your full attention then I don't know what will.

The reformers still considered the truth about Jesus Christ to be heretical, and they still do today. No matter how much you reform a lie, a lie is a lie. Jesus Christ did not claim to be the son of God and he did not physically resurrect. He was also not abstinent and free of sin. He was merely very enlightened. Such a thought is a heresy to nearly every Christian in the land - to even THINK about the idea is a heresy. Why is it such a sin to investigate and to question what is the status quo when Jesus himself was a revolutionary who questioned the status quo? Martyrs are martyrs and Christians are capable of just as many amazing things as any other person on the earth, but they are certainly no better than anyone, nor anymore righteous than anyone else. Christianity, by proclaiming to be the "true" religion becomes a lie. Once again, more heresy...

awakensong

19-08-2008, 06:43 AM

It would be hard for me to imagine that the site titled "Jesus Never Existed" has not been discussed on this board somewhere before at some time. However, I believe it is relevant to this conversation, and especially when combined with Tony Bushby's "The Bible Fraud", where he reveals that the biblical figure "Jesus Christ" is actually a composite of two brothers, one named Judas Khrestus (a violent anarchist who incited the people to riot against Rome) and the other Rabbi Jesus (who taught peace and harmony).

In the following list of scriptures from the Jesus Never Existed site, I think it can be understood which of the two characters say which quotations. This site, however, does not come from that angle, and does not make the differentiation. It is trying to show that a single man named Jesus Christ did not live the life ascribed to him in the bible, and I would add that if he did, he would have multiple personalities, just like the god of the old testament, if there were to be only one god quoted and followed.

Myself, I grew up a Catholic and suffered trauma and psychological injury that I cannot even describe, then later on changed over to Protestant. I was a choir director, song writer, music and prayer minister, but in the middle of the year 2000, I began to wake up and see that the real truth wasn't what was being presented in church. The whole thing is a big confusing mixture of Astro-Theology, visitors from other worlds, the history of the Egyptian Pharaohs, and two brothers who had a Jewish mother and a Roman military father, voted on at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD by bishops, deacons, presbyters, etc., to be combined and become the "new god". The version of the ancient writings we have today is something like 2 dozen removes from the original, which is not even in existence any longer, so cannot be compared with. The closest to the original is the "Hebrew Bible, which Bushby was able to access at a museum in Europe.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/neighbour.html

"If ye will not give glory unto my name saith the LORD ... I will spread dung upon your faces." – Malachi 2.2,3

Jesus Christ –

The Neighbour from Hell

Jesus Christ – Paragon of Virtue?

Few people attempt a defence of the bloody history of the Christian Church, though because most of the iniquity attaches itself to Roman Catholicism and the Papacy it is Catholics who work hardest at damage limitation ("one or two bad apples in an otherwise glorious story").

But let's not forget, Protestants were as good as anyone else at burning witches, heretics, native 'savages' and even Catholics.
The universal defence from Christians of all shades is that it is not Christ that has failed but man himself. The godman was perfect, pure, his message cut from whole-cloth 100% sweetness and light.

Before you sign up for the rest of eternity snuggled up with this supersized prince of perfection spare a moment to consider what he would be like even as your next door neighbour.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/IMAGES/wilde.gifLoved Up

There goes the neighbourhood. Jesus caroused with a gang of unemployed young men and the odd prostitute. Some of them had abandoned wives and children to join his gang and "love one another."
"They forsook all, and followed him." – Luke 5.11

A Walking, Talking Contradiction

If Jesus had been the creation of a single author his character might have been consistent and believable. But as the work of many hands the godman is a mass of contradictions, most notoriously over his very divinity.

Is the superhero God? It's something that Christ-followers have drawn blood over at least since the time of Arius in the 4th century. Even a child could assemble a mass of quotations both for and against the idea (all the way from "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) to "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46).
But what could we expect from a character pencilled in from sundry episodes lifted from Jewish scripture and a collection of aphorisms?

What made Jesus so perfect?

Christians of all stripes aver that their hero was "perfect", whatever that might mean. Did he have perfect sweat or no sweat at all? One can, by all means, trundle out all the "love" teachings to be found in the gospels but that is to be highly selective and would say nothing that had not been said by earlier, human philosophers anyway.
"Perfection" should extend to every teaching and action and yet if we look closely at the behaviour and utterances of our superstar we find no paragon of virtue.
Pagans Knew Better

"Injustice is a sin. Nature has constituted rational beings for their own mutual benefit, each to help his fellows according to their worth, and in no wise to do them hurt."

"When those about you are venting their censure or malice upon you or raising any other sort of injurious clamour ... it is still your duty to think kindly of them; for nature has made them to be your friends."

– Jesus? No, 'Meditations' of the emperor Marcus Aurelius (161-180) a pagan who devoted his life to the defence of Roman civilization.

He despised the fanatics of Christ who delighted in Rome's misfortunes.

Trouble and Strife

The Jesus Christ of the gospels is a patently artificial construct. This Prince of Peace also preaches discord and strife:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." – Matthew 10:34
Having told his fans to love their enemies, alarmingly, Jesus also tells them to turn families into enemies!
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." – Matthew 10.35,36
" If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." – Luke 14.26

How far does Jesus go with this malevolent (and plainly ridiculous) dictum? Matthew provides the answer:
"And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." – Matthew 10.21
Having alienated his followers from their families with this murderous nonsense Jesus advises his adoring groupies on how to deal with their own body parts that lead them into sin – amputation! They are to mutilate themselves by cutting off hands and plucking out eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer the "everlasting fire" of hell.
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched ... And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell ... And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." – Mark 9.43,47
According to the malefic sage, merely looking at a woman "with lust" was a sin. 3rd century Origen was one young and impressionable Christian fanatic who took the words of his Lord a tad literally and castrated himself. He was neither the first nor the last Jesus-follower to glory in self-abasement and abuse. In the hair-shirted centuries that lay ahead tens of thousands of the brethren would mortify their own flesh in accordance with the pathetic dictates of the godman.
In times of acute social hardship and plague, despairing believers, taking upon themselves guilt for general misfortune and personal tragedy, submitted voluntarily to half-naked frenzies of public lamentations and floggings. Indeed, punishing the body for the good of the soul remains a main tenet of the Christian psychosis.
Jesus Christ is the chief honcho of a physically dangerous, family-threatening, mind-warping cult! Still want to live next door to the superstar?

Pagans Knew Better

Porphyry (232-305) was the nemesis of the Christians. They 'refuted' him for generations and then settled for burning his books.

"A famous saying of the Teacher is this one: 'Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will have no life in yourselves.'

This saying is not only beastly and absurd; it is more absurd than absurdity itself and more beastly than any beast: that a man should savor human flesh or drink the blood ... and that by so doing this he should obtain eternal life!

Tell us: in recommending this sort of practice, do you not reduce human existence to savagery of a most unimaginable sort?"

– Porphyry Against the Christians (Hoffmann, p49).

JC – Danger to animals and plants

Did those Gadarene swine really deserve their fate? And the ruin of "they that kept them"? Mr Omnipotent could have sent those devils up in a puff of smoke but instead JC chose animal cruelty on quite a massive scale.

– Keep an eye on your dog and cat, JC might toss demons into them.

(But, of course, "animal cruelty" was not an issue with the scribes who actually wrote the yarn.)

And cursing a tree because its fruit wasn't in season? Why not just produce figs?
"No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever"... "behold the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away." – Mark 11.21
– Better also keep an eye on your fruit bushes, JC might blight them.

JC – Praises Dishonesty

In Luke 16 – the so-called "Parable of the Dishonest Servant" – Jesus, with approval, describes a rich man praising the dishonesty of a servant. The steward, accused of waste, faces dismissal so he dreams up a strategy to secure his future.
"I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses." – Luke 16.4
The "they" refers to each of his master's debtors, whom the steward connives with to mark down their debts. Yet apparently:
"the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light." – Luke 16.8
Mr 'Perfect Jesus' adds:
"And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations." – Luke 16.9
Wow! – not one for the Sunday School. But then JC not only praises dishonesty he is also, it seems, quite able to be dishonest. According to John 7, Jesus and his gang were strolling in Galilee and the merry men urged the boss to wrought wonders in "Jewry" at the Feast of Tabernacles. JC declines:
"I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come." – John 7.8
Hardly had the followers departed when the superman does precisely what he said he wouldn't do:
"But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret." – John 7.10
JC isn't so compassionate

After the disruption of families, amputations, the fate of the swine and the odd fig tree, one might also wonder if Mr Loving Kindness really has a sense of compassion. Surely he loves everybody? Bizarrely, JC instructs:
"Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." – Matthew 8.22
This was said to a disciple who had just lost his father and wanted time to bury him! Even the hardest-hearted employer would give time for your father's funeral!

An insensitive Jesus leaves Lazarus lying in his grave for four days so that the miracle of his resurrection appears more impressive.
In another incident the hapless Judas Iscariot questions why Jesus has expensive ointment (a pound of "spikenard" worth 300 denarii, or a year's wages) rubbed on his feet (and wiped off with a woman's hair!). Surely, says Judas, the money could have gone to the poor? In a retort that must always have delighted the plutocrats of the Church, JC says:
"For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always." – John 12.8
Well, we could all say that! Why not do something about poverty?
Judas, of course, like the other disciples, is a Jew and the early church took pains to distance itself from this perfidious people. Is JC himself an anti-Semite? Certainly he dissociates himself from the Jews, as if they were not his own people:
"But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." – Matthew 8.12
Guess who "the children" are? Did the Jews ever have a chance?
It is also worth noting that the "great moral teacher" at no point condemns the practice of slavery, quite a shortcoming for the supposed saviour of mankind. Indeed, the advocacy of a belief that everything is by God's will – including tyranny and enslavement (and that happiness is to be realized in heaven after death), is intolerably immoral.

Pagans Knew Better

ON TRUE HAPPINESS.

"It is surely unsound to deny that good of life to animals only because they do not appear to man to be of great account ... The very plants: they have life, and life may bring good or evil; the plants may thrive or wither, bear or be barren ...

Those that deny the happy life to the plants on the ground that they lack sensation are really denying it to all living things ...

What then is happiness? Let us try basing it upon Life ... Happiness can exist only in a being that lives fully ... Life in its greatest plenitude, life in which the good is present as something essential not as something brought from without, a life needing no foreign substance called in from a foreign realm, to establish it in good.

When man commands not merely the life of sensation but also Reason and Authentic Intellection, he has realised the perfect life.

There exists no single human being that does not either potentially or effectively possess this thing which we hold to constitute happiness.

And if death taking from him his familiars and intimates does bring grief, it is not to him, not to the true man, but to that in him which stands apart from the Supreme, to that lower man in whose distress he takes no part."

– Plotinus (204-270), The Six Enneads. Plontinus was one of the last of the great pagan philosophers.

Humble or Arrogant?

It's claimed that JC's perfection was shown by his unbounded "humility" – and we all know how wonderful it is to show humility, way up there with curing cancer and feeding the hungry.

Would you believe the majestic superstar left the comforts of eternal heaven to rough it for a few years on earth. A carpenter in the boondocks of Galilee, for chrisake? A bit like a drop-out with a trust fund. Aren't you impressed?

But the Jesus Christ character is NOT a being of limitless humility. Although he is a self-styled religious radical, Jesus arrogantly muscled into the establishments of Judaism:
"Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues." – Matthew 9.35
When he goes to the Temple, the heart and soul of Judaic worship, he has the audacity to overturn tables and ruin the dove-keepers' stalls:
"And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple." – Mark 11.15,16
Jesus Christ, in fact, is incredibly arrogant. He calls himself "Lord and Master" (John 13.13) and those who follow him "Little children" (John 13.33). Or else, he's the "Shepherd" and you are the "sheep" – and sheep, of course, get fleeced!

JC's arrogance actually began early in life. Imagine the anguish that a 12-year-old going missing for 3 days causes his parents. Now the fable tells us that Jesus went missing and his "sorrowful" parents searched for three days before eventually finding the boy at the Temple. Yet Jesus doesn't apologize – he blames them for not knowing that he was doing his "real father's" business!
"And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them." – Luke 2.48,50
So why does the Church assign "humility" to their cocksure hero? For the same reason he is, when required, holy, righteous, gentle and meek. Quite simply, he is the measure of all things, roaring like a lion and bleating like a lamb, a conquering monarch and a willing sacrifice.
Any suffering you might have to endure is as nothing compared to his suffering. And even though you may not have a trust fund, and you're certainly not going to heaven, the priests would have you follow his sublime example. Attend Church; keep to the rules; do what you're told; be humble – and don't even think about complaining. When you're dead you'll get your reward!

Pagans Knew Better

Celsus (110-180?) was an Epicurean rationalist. He wrote scathing critiques of magicians and Christian tricksters.

"Just as the charlatans of the cults take advantage of the simpleton's lack of education to lead him around by the nose, so too with the Christian teachers: they do not want to give or receive reasons for what they believe. Their favorite expressions are "Do not ask questions, just believe!" and: "Your faith will save you!" "The wisdom of the world," they say, "is evil; to be simple is to be good."

We are told that Jesus judged the rich with the saying 'It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god.' Yet we know that Plato expressed this very idea in a purer form when he said,

'It is impossible for an exceptionally good man to be exceptionally rich.'

Is one utterance more inspired than the other?

– Celsus (On the True Doctrine)

Insufferable

Arrogance leads to smugness and JC is never lacking in self-satisfaction. Jesus knows everything and therefore can't be told anything he doesn't already know. He cannot be deceived by men, because he knows their innermost thoughts even before they speak.
Does such prescience lead him, like the Buddha, to a benign acceptance and universal toleration? Far from it. JC is filled with vindictive fury - an attitude which is not uncommon with evangelical preachers.

Anyone who won't listen to his preaching will be on the receiving end of the vilest curses and gets a free pass to everlasting torment.
"Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him neither in this World nor in the world to come." – Mark 3.29

"The Son of Man shall send forth his His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." – Matthew 13.41,42

Again and again, JC makes intimidating offers. Talk about carrot and stick! Bribery or burn – what's it to be?
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. – John 15.6
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." – John 15.7
Supposedly JC was "full of grace". What this odd phrase means is that he did not discriminate against anyone. Great attitude? Think about it. Most people make more discerning judgements. Would you happily have a beer with a serial killer or a paedeophile? Saddam Hussein? George W. Bush?
"Jesus is a glutton, a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and sinners. He makes, in other words, no appropriate distinctions and discriminations. He has no honor. He has no shame."
– Crossan (The Historical Jesus, p. 262)

Priestly use-value: Don't censure the high, the mighty or especially the priesthood. When they get caught with their pants down it's time for "grace."

JC is also supposedly full of "truth". In fact, he said he was the truth. Trouble is, JC's truth varied with the day of the week.

Priestly use-value: JC has a quote for every occasion and every pronouncement has divine authority. Jesus Christ is truly a Superman for All Seasons.

JC is boringly obtuse

Much of the time even JC's disciples couldn't fathom what he was talking about. Medieval Churchmen spent a lifetime pondering and still couldn't agree. Why does JC speak in parables?
" that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." – Luke 8.10
If that doesn't baffle you try these:
"For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind." – John 9.39
"He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." – John 12.25
JC's parables are both trivial and incomprehensible.

JC lacks any sense of humour

JC may condescend to wash your feet, especially at dinner (kinky, eh?) but don't expect him to make you laugh. This guy is Mr Serious. The problem began with the fraudsters who perceived humour as unworthy of the Majesty of God. For them humour was undignified, frivolous, and unbecoming of the divine. Seriousness, on the other hand, implied gravity and, of course, Truth.

"Jesus" never laughs and unfortunately life imitated artifice. The suppression of yet another human impulse had a corresponding dire consequence for the psychosis of Christianity. Laughter, along with joyful music and sensuous dance, were denounced as the stratagem of the Devil, a feast of fools. The asylum of Christendom was a dark and somber tomb.

Pagans Knew Better

The rhetorician Lucian (c.125-180) regarded Christianity as a form of sophistry spread among the gullible. He paints a portrait of a Christian/Cynic charlatan who sets himself ablaze (a publicity scam that rebounds on him).

"Peregrinus, having strangled his father, unable to tolerate his living beyond sixty years ... learned the wondrous lore of the Christians, by associating with their priests and scribes in Palestine.

In a trice he made them all look like children, for he was prophet, cult-leader, head of the synagogue, and everything, all by himself. He interpreted and explained some of their books and even composed many, and they revered him as a god ...

When imprisoned, the Christians, regarding the incident as a calamity, left nothing undone in the effort to rescue him ... from the very break of day aged widows and orphan children could be seen waiting near the prison, while their officials even slept inside with him after bribing the guards ...

Peregrinus ... procured not a little revenue from it.

Indeed, people came even from the cities in Asia, sent by the Christians at their common expense, to succour and defend and encourage the hero ...

The poor wretches have convinced themselves, first and foremost, that they are going to be immortal and live for all time, in consequence of which they despise death and even willingly give themselves into custody ...

They despise all things indiscriminately and consider them common property, receiving such doctrines traditionally without any definite evidence.

So if any charlatan and trickster, able to profit by occasions, comes among them, he quickly acquires sudden wealth by imposing upon simple folk."

– Lucian of Samosata, The Passing of Peregrinus

JC ain't so smart after all
"Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day?" – John 11.9.
Jesus – or rather the self-deceived fools who fabricated his story – thought that their saviour would be back "in clouds of glory" before the death of the people living at that time. 2000 years later and we're still waiting.
"Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come." – Matthew 10.23

"There are some standing here which shall not taste death till the Son of Man comes into His kingdom." – Matthew 16.28
JC does NOT love his own enemies
In the most famous utterances of all time, JC mouthed well-intentioned but disastrous bad advice:
"Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." – Matthew 5.44
"Resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." – Matthew 5.39
Who are we kidding? Try telling that one to George Born Again Bush. Hating enemies, punishing wrong-doers, bringing retribution to the wicked are as natural and as necessary as daylight. Even Jesus does not heed his own advice, threatening those who don't believe in him with hell:
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be damned"
– Mark 16.16
In any event, Christians have always in practice preferred the principle of "See that other guy's land? Let's go grab it!"
And don't be fooled by all that "love your neighbour" stuff. Even the mythical Jesus Christ is no paragon of virtue!

bgrade_actor

19-08-2008, 07:17 AM

Jesus Christ did not claim to be the son of God and he did not physically resurrect. He was also not abstinent and free of sin.

If that was true you are saying the apostles most of whom were martyred; spent their lives proclaiming Jesus as the Christ, ALL OF THEM knowingly died for a cause they knew to be false!! Not believed but knew. They were there they were first hand witnesses.

Nobody who was sane would knowingly die for a cause they knew to be false. Noone. You can die for a cause you believe in, but these guys didn't believe they knew.....big big difference.

I put it to you the very reason why Jesus was put to death, the very reason why the apostles were all killed was because of their claims. The apostles were in direct opposition to the jewish leaders and the other leaders of the day because they claim Jesus as the Christ. Same for the reformers. They were just saying the same thing only to the catholic church!!

Here's what Jesus says himself when he was on trial from the bible

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” “Yes, it is as you say,”Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.

Here's what Peter the apostle who denied Jesus and was crucified inverted says in the book of Acts.

Ac 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him

And from 1 Corinthians
1Co 15:6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed

And I could go on. You can read it yourself online or in any bible.

bgrade_actor

19-08-2008, 07:28 AM

And some quotes from Foxs book of martyrs, just to show that those being executed believed Jesus was Lord. These people believe what the bible said and without seeing were willing to die for their belief that Jesus was God.
Some pretty compelling evidence of what these people really believed. Woudl you be saying the same of your beliefs in the face of death??

On the thirteenth of July, 1541, these men were brought from the Tower to Smithfield, where they were all chained to one stake; and there suffered death with a constancy that nothing less than a firm faith in Jesus Christ could inspire.

Anthony Parsons, a priest, together with two others, was sent to Windsor, to be examined concerning heresy; and several articles were tendered to them to subscribe, which they refused. This was carried on by the bishop of Salisbury, who was the most violent persecutor of any in that age, except Bonner. When they were brought to the stake, Parsons asked for some drink, which being brought him, he drank to his fellow-sufferers, saying, "Be merry, my brethren, and lift up your hearts to God; for after this sharp breakfast I trust we shall have a good dinner in the Kingdom of Christ, our Lord and Redeemer." At these words Eastwood, one of the sufferers, lifteed up his eyes and hands to heaven, desiring the Lord above to receive his spirit. Parsons pulled the straw near to him, and then said to the spectators, "This is God's armor, and now I am a Christian soldier prepared for battle: I look for no mercy but through the merits of Christ;

He is my only Savior, in Him do I trust for salvation;" and soon after the fires were lighted, which burned their bodies, but could not hurt their precious and immortal souls. Their constancy triumphed over cruelty, and their sufferings will be held in everlasting remembrance

The year following the martyrdoms of the before-mentioned persons, viz. 1539, two others were apprehended on a suspicion of herresy; namely, Jerome Russell and Alexander Kennedy, a youth about eighteen years of age.

These two persons, after being some time confined in prison, were brought before the archbishop for examination. In the course of which Russell, being a very sensible man, reasoned learnedly against his accusers; while they in return made use of very opprobrious language.

The examination being over, and both of them deemed heretics, the archbishop pronounced the dreadful sentence of death, and they were immediately delivered over to the secular power in order for execution.

The next day they were led to the place appointed for them to suffer; in their way to which, Russell, seeing his fellow-sufferer have the appearance of timidity in his countenance, thus addressed him: "Brother, fear not; greater is He that is in us, than He that is in the world. The pain that we are to suffer is short, and shall be light; but our joy and consolation shall never have an end. Let us, therefore, strive to enter into our Master and Savior's joy, by the same straight way which He hath taken before us. Death cannot hurt us, for it is already destroyed by Him, for whose sake we are now going to suffer."

thirdwave

19-08-2008, 10:39 AM

Don't link the actions of the Roman Catholic Church with real Christianity.

Dont try to brush of Christianity's flaws by claiming its rotten parts are not "Real Christianity" when they are.... its just you think all of christinaity is perfect obviously and any of the crap parts of it are just "not Christianity" ..anyone can say that.

Don't forget it was the reformers who started the ball rolling out of the dark ages by standing up for the truth and showing that the Catholic Church Teaching wasn't inline with what the bible says The reformers challenged the authority of the church with the authority of bible.

but this fake christianity you talk of is what created it and up held it and made it what it is... before then it did not exsist other than many different spiritual groups all over the world who did not go by the name christians.. and did not worship Jesus Christ.

The Church responded by trying to kill many of the reformers. So do not broad brush the bible and the catholic church.

Well thats how you like to put it yes. you dont like the people who created the bible.. yet you still base your faith on it.

Protestant theology is about saying the bible is the sole authority and that the Catholic church is not. The catholics were killing the people who wrote the non catholic bibles because it undermined their power base.

Rubbish, they were killing anyone who did not follow the bible... branding people witches and all sorts... the only "Christian" texts they destroyed where the ones that did not say anything about Jesus Christ.

Yet the reformers didn't fight they were slaughtered by the 1000 just like many of their contemporaries in the years gone by. People were burnt at the stake praying to God, refusing to recant. They knew that the church was wrong and they stood by the bible to the death. If that isn't a testimony that's gets your full attention then I don't know what will.

While there were obviously people like your self who can see when something is wrong but still requires the dogma it originated from, and yes these people where killed along with many other peoples faiths... but like I say, you just are admitting something is corrupt, but failing to realise the original core of what the faith is about...

it was not about a man called Jesus Christ that the bile speaks of, and how he died on the cross for our sins ...it was not about the 10 commandments or any of that's stuff... it was not about Christ being god and our maker...

it was simply about conciousness... and a part of a belief and understanding seen by many other civilisations.

of course not every christian and not every catholic wanted to burn and kill none believers.. just like not all Muslims today want to kill others.... but they are still created from the corruption of a book.

You can see the book how you wish, but others see it differently and this is by design... religion has proved to do this for thousands of years and anyone who cant see that yet has got some serious waking up to do IMO.

thirdwave

19-08-2008, 10:54 AM

If that was true you are saying the apostles most of whom were martyred; spent their lives proclaiming Jesus as the Christ, ALL OF THEM knowingly died for a cause they knew to be false!! Not believed but knew. They were there they were first hand witnesses.

but you are ignoring the fact that there is no evidence the apostles ever lived or that they where who they were said to be... or that they died like they did, for the reason they did...

there is no real evidence, its all very vague who the characters where... you gather this info from a book that you openly admit to have suffered corruption with no real clear texts know before or after.. just all faith.

which is fine if thats what people wants... but I feel it should be understood that your god is not the god and salvation of everyone else.

eternal_spirit

19-08-2008, 11:19 AM

thirdwave

19-08-2008, 01:19 PM

# As soon as Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire by imperial edict (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
# Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
# Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
# Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
# Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
# Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
# In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
# In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
# The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
[DO19-25]

http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/10/how-many-people-have-been-killed-by.php

seanx

19-08-2008, 01:47 PM

bgrade_actor wrote

Don't link the actions of the Roman Catholic Church with real Christianity.
Don't forget it was the reformers who started the ball rolling out of the dark ages by standing up for the truth and showing that the Catholic Church Teaching wasn't inline with what the bible says The reformers challenged the authority of the church with the authority of bible.

The Church responded by trying to kill many of the reformers. So do not broad brush the bible and the catholic church. Protestant theology is about saying the bible is the sole authority and that the Catholic church is not. The catholics were killing the people who wrote the non catholic bibles because it undermined their power base. .

'Real christianity'!!!

There is no difference between the nonsense you preach and the
catholic stuff.

it is just different versions of the same program.

As for the killing.

Both of you WERE at it.

The catholic version were doing it - and you lot, the Prods were
doing it too. Remember Oliver Cromwell and his program of
'catholic cleansing'. 30,000 Catholics alone murdered in
Ireland

And both of you groups have the nerve to use the vision of this
man Jesus, if he existed - as an excuse to kill and butcher others
who don't agree with your 'versions'.

As for the Bible - HOW do you KNOW it is the WORD of God?

Simply .....because 'somebody' told you it was?

Isn't that naive - and doesn't it allow you to be easily manipulated?

And Your whole belief system rests on that simple, thread-like
assumption?

As I said before dump your bible in the nearest rubbish bin, and
listen to your own heart - to your truest inspiration.

And not what a group of ordinary, old men wrote thousands of years
ago, based on their understanding and beliefs at the time.

bgrade_actor

19-08-2008, 03:00 PM

it was not about a man called Jesus Christ that the bile speaks of, and how he died on the cross for our sins ...it was not about the 10 commandments or any of that's stuff... it was not about Christ being god and our maker...

Yet I have supplied you with quotes from the bible that specifically contradict this statement. Very clear and simple statements, remember that the english bible was written so that the common man could understand.

Rubbish, they were killing anyone who did not follow the bible... branding people witches and all sorts... the only "Christian" texts they destroyed where the ones that did not say anything about Jesus Christ.

Yes they killed many other people other than Christians too, however Luther Calvin and Tyndale et al were in hiding or in gaol for a reason! They were all calling the pope the antichrist and building a reformed church.

There is no difference between the nonsense you preach and the
catholic stuff.

Really? How come so many people were killed by the inquisition then? I suggest you read the following:
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/catholic_protestant.htm

And yes I am sure some terrible things have been done by so called christians over the years however if you reconcile their actions with what Jesus says I would suggest that he wouldn't approve.

but you are ignoring the fact that there is no evidence the apostles ever lived or that they where who they were said to be... or that they died like they did, for the reason they did..

And you are ignoring the evidence of the following non christian and christian sources:
Eusebius, Papias, Clement of Alexandria, Josephus, Tacitus,

Not to mention the Roman History of Pontius Pilot and the Jewish uprising.

Not to mention the dead sea scrolls and the bible

There is plenty of evidence to support what the bible says, to state otherwise really takes more faith than to believe what it says!!

seanx

19-08-2008, 03:53 PM

bgrade_actor wrote:

Really? How come so many people were killed by the inquisition then? I suggest you read the following:
http://www.religionfacts.com/christi...protestant.htm

Yes, BOTH of you were at it.

If your only defence is that the 'Catholics' killed and tourtured more
than we did, how pitiful is that?

Isn't that just because they were more of them than your lot?

And all this.....because you were fed an insidious
idea that this book, The Bible must be obeyed because it
IS the word of God?

Again, how do you know this? Who tell you this?

Just listen to this statement you made:

Yet I have supplied you with quotes from the bible that specifically contradict this statement. Very clear and simple statements, remember that the english bible was written so that the common man could understand.

This is your problem.

You seem to think ( or you have been programmed ) that if it is in
the Bible then it is true and we must obey it?

Why?

Don't you see your whole belief structure is based on this
untenable assumption?

thirdwave

19-08-2008, 05:39 PM

Yet I have supplied you with quotes from the bible that specifically contradict this statement. Very clear and simple statements, remember that the english bible was written so that the common man could understand.

No you have not...

Ok..ok.. Tell me what you think the bible is about... are you saying its not about Jesus Christ?

what is it to you and why it is called Christianity?

Yes they killed many other people other than Christians too, however Luther Calvin and Tyndale et al were in hiding or in gaol for a reason! They were all calling the pope the antichrist and building a reformed church.

that's not all they called the anti Christ either... there have been many movements of Christianity and it was noit just the Catholics who killed people in the name of their religion, to say so is just disino...

Really? How come so many people were killed by the inquisition then? I suggest you read the following:
http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/catholic_protestant.htm

this stuff is written by other Christians who want to uphold it like you do...
Just because some Christians have killed other Christians it does not mean that real Christians are good and other Christians are bad... you forget that in most of the cases it was druids and "witches" .. and other faiths that were killed.. not just conflicting Christians...

there are other threads banging on about how bad the Jews are... but its the same thing, some Jews will say that the evil stuff is nothing to do with the faith they have and beliefs.... but it still all came from the same source and its still all created for the division...

Spirituality should never have a title... it should just be something understood and if it is then free will is something that will always be understood. and that worshipping gods or submitting your life to a belief system is not the right direction to go in...

And yes I am sure some terrible things have been done by so called Christians over the years however if you reconcile their actions with what Jesus says I would suggest that he wouldn't approve.
It depends what Jesus you mean.... he has about 20 different personalties... in any bible.

And you are ignoring the evidence of the following non christian and christian sources:
Eusebius, Papias, Clement of Alexandria, Josephus, Tacitus,

I know all about the "non Christian" sources .. and I don't trust them for a second... anyone that feels the need to defend something that is so blatantly corrupt is not natural IMO... and often don't look deep enough to get past what our Christian civilisation has placed down for them anyway.

I think its important that you remember we are in a Christian civilisation so there will be plenty of wonderful things to find out about Christianity... and the bad things wont be so easy to see....

Not to mention the Roman History of Pontius Pilot and the Jewish uprising.

You are debunking your own religion.... before all these evil groups you talk of came about Christianity did not exist... just a few books found of people talking about Christ conciousness... who were probably Druids.

Not to mention the dead sea scrolls and the bible
what about them? ... and also don't forget the mayan texts that where burnt ... and not to mention nemours other texts burnt including more texts that where meant to have stuff on Christ...

There is plenty of evidence to support what the bible says, to state otherwise really takes more faith than to believe what it says!!

There is not 1 speck.... only what the source its self has provided and before them you have nothing but the books THEY discovered and like I said before that Christ may well have been preached by Druids who did not view it as a God but simply a conciousness... and where responsible for righting some texts on it that have never been read by you or anyone else here but where taken and mixed with many other books and was called the bible... and was used to create a religion.

awakensong

19-08-2008, 08:29 PM

quote: awakensong
– Porphyry Against the Christians (Hoffmann, p49).

– Jesus? No, 'Meditations' of the emperor Marcus Aurelius (161-180) a pagan who devoted his life to the defence of Roman civilization.

He despised the fanatics of Christ who delighted in Rome's misfortunes.

Is this the same Hoffman who wrote this?

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10703

The Pagans of Rome cut off the thumbs of their slaves so they couldn't pick up swords to rebel and they threw Christians to the lions and crucified them. So they are just as bad, not to mention human and animal sacrafice, The Greeks took their Pagan deities and set up Rome (Lucifer/Satan/Baphomet/Pan etc etc

The NWO players and the Elite still worship these deities Today.

Some say the Christian Church is just a continuation of Paganism same could be said for all the religions, which don't appear Pagan on the surface.
So it's divide and rule this is why I refuse to follow any religions because it's all the same thing.

The people rebelled and the Roman empire fell, long before they moved themselves to Italy.

This has happened throughout history
The true meaning of Mystery babylon is behind it, when their system of Slavery collapses the Elite Priesthoods move to another country, there has been many Babylons.
Just as you say you don't follow any religion and are not religious, neither do I nor am I. As far as I'm concerned they are ALL Reptilian, including Paganism. For convenience, I just c/p'd that entire page, and it was mainly to show the dark sayings of the man called "Jesus Christ".

When David Icke was on Coast to Coast AM once, he openly proclaimed that he in no way buys the Jesus story. In my research, it is the story of the Sun passing through the 12 houses of the Zodiac in a year (Jesus' 1-year ministry).

http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/jesusoutline.html
The Story of Jesus is the Story of the Sun Passing Through the Zodiac

The character Jesus is mainly based upon the character Mithras, another Pagan deity/ Sun god. The funniest part of it all is, Jesus himself is a Pagan deity. http://www.pocm.info/

eternal_spirit

19-08-2008, 08:49 PM

Yes Awakensong Icke wrote about this in the Biggest Secret I've been aware since that books was in it's first print.

The 12 tribes may also be another allegory of the Zodiac.

awakensong

20-08-2008, 12:48 AM

If that was true you are saying the apostles most of whom were martyred; spent their lives proclaiming Jesus as the Christ, ALL OF THEM knowingly died for a cause they knew to be false!! Not believed but knew. They were there they were first hand witnesses.

The "winners" of any battle, struggle or war always rewrite history to make themselves appear to be the injured party and be the good guys. If Germany had won WWII, we would have learned that they were all saints and the allied forces had been the villains.

Could these apostles of whom you are speaking be the sword-totin', non-believer-smotin' followers of Judas Khrestus? Maybe their "martrydom" was actually legal executions.

awakensong

20-08-2008, 12:49 AM

Yes Awakensong Icke wrote about this in the Biggest Secret I've been aware since that books was in it's first print.

The 12 tribes may also be another allegory of the Zodiac.
Another thought is that the 12 tribes might be the 12 cosmic DNA strands, of which only 2 are activated right now.

eternal_spirit

20-08-2008, 11:08 AM

The "winners" of any battle, struggle or war always rewrite history to make themselves appear to be the injured party and be the good guys. If Germany had won WWII, we would have learned that they were all saints and the allied forces had been the villains.

Could these apostles of whom you are speaking be the sword-totin', non-believer-smotin' followers of Judas Khrestus? Maybe their "martrydom" was actually legal executions.

Steven Spielberg is Jewish and Jew's own and control Hollywood and associates would have us believe that the only people who died in Hitler's concentration camps were Jews and therefore Jews have special rights to commit crimes that other people should not commit. In fact between 40% and 45% of concentration camp victims were Jews. The 55% to 60% majority were not Jews but rather Christians with the largest portion being Slavs. Hitler called Slavs "the ultimate subhumans". Why don't we give Slavic people the same James Bond style "license to kill" we have given Jews? The answer is that Slavs do not dominate the American media or control our sold out Congress.
I would like to see just one movie that showed the real face of Dorian Grey, not the forever innocent face Hollywood propagandists project. Why not show Israeli Jews ethnically cleansing Palestinians from their homes, torturing prisoners, breaking the bones of children, and forcing American politicians to lick their boots

thirdwave

20-08-2008, 11:13 AM

Steven Spielberg is Jewish and Jew's own and control Hollywood and associates would have us believe that the only people who died in Hitler's concentration camps were Jews and therefore Jews have special rights to commit crimes that other people should not commit. In fact between 40% and 45% of concentration camp victims were Jews. The 55% to 60% majority were not Jews but rather Christians with the largest portion being Slavs. Hitler called Slavs "the ultimate subhumans". Why don't we give Slavic people the same James Bond style "license to kill" we have given Jews? The answer is that Slavs do not dominate the American media or control our sold out Congress.
I would like to see just one movie that showed the real face of Dorian Grey, not the forever innocent face Hollywood propagandists project. Why not show Israeli Jews ethnically cleansing Palestinians from their homes, torturing prisoners, breaking the bones of children, and forcing American politicians to lick their boots

But what about what The christian USA government is doing to the world now? .. is that not bad because of maybe others who have done worse??

its ok to get a kick in the head because its better than getting a kick in the head and balls?

eternal_spirit

20-08-2008, 11:30 AM

But what about what The christian USA government is doing to the world now? .. is that not bad because of maybe others who have done worse??

its ok to get a kick in the head because its better than getting a kick in the head and balls?

It's the Zionists who's in control the Christians are just a front, they are really Zionist or taking orders from Zionists. Think BabylonianTalmud/Babylonian Brotherhood.

It makes sense that more Christian slavs were killed by Hilter, because the Zionists created Communists and the Russian Gulgs years before the second WAR and up until 1958 killed millions of mostly the same Christian slavs. And if Hitler was son of a Rothschild, it was the same families their associate bankers funded both the War and the Bolshevik Communist regime in Russia.

Zionism is the NWO.

thirdwave

20-08-2008, 11:44 AM

It's the Zionists who's in control the Christians are just a front, they are really Zionist or taking orders from Zionists. Think BabylonianTalmud/Babylonian Brotherhood.

It makes sense that more Christian slavs were killed by Hilter, because the Zionists created Communists and the Russian Gulgs years before the second WAR and up until 1958 killed millions of mostly the same Christian slavs. And if Hitler was son of a Rothschild, it was the same families their associate bankers funded both the War and the Bolshevik Communist regime in Russia.

Zionism is the NWO.

So what it comes down to is there are just lots of bullshit fronts from bullshit religions, but you choose to think that Christianity is all good but Jews are evil and all the to blame......

shocking.. :rolleyes:

lizzy

20-08-2008, 02:56 PM

So what it comes down to is there are just lots of bullshit fronts from bullshit religions, but you choose to think that Christianity is all good but Jews are evil and all the to blame......

shocking.. :rolleyes:

ES did'nt say Jews , he said jewish zionism.........are all jews zionists ..No, of course not , Henry Makow and others have done excellent exposure work.

Get it right TW.

btw..when you said on a thread that you were only here 2 hours a day , I think you forgot the zero.

lizzy

20-08-2008, 03:07 PM

But what about what The christian USA government is doing to the world now? .. is that not bad because of maybe others who have done worse??

its ok to get a kick in the head because its better than getting a kick in the head and balls?

OMG, they are controlled more and more from Isreal. You can watch a christian tv network , actually told to pray for the Isrealis.

For all the time I have seen you here, you have'nt learnt a thing,.......

except how to maul posters over. How fuckin' sad is that.

bgrade_actor

20-08-2008, 04:05 PM

Firstly this whole idea that history was written by the christians because they 'won' is really a nonsensical argument. I don't know how on earth you consider 'christianity' to 'win' when so many of it's believers have been killed or persecuted over the years. It's a ludicrous argument to suggest that the christian bible is written by the victors. If that is so then why would the following things be in there if it is as biased as you claim:

It lists all the failings of the Israelites in the old testament ending in their destruction
Tells of King David who who killed off a women's husband so he could conquer her.
Tells of the death of some many of it's believers, for standing up for their belief, John the Baptist, Stephen, how Paul persecuted the church.

So these guys didn't win anything all they got was a hard time. To say that they conquered the world is rubbish. Israel was wiped out as a country and has been occupied ever since. So no worldly victories there. As opposed to Islam which controls numerous countries with it's laws and strict rules.

Now for the bible. I's pretty obvious none of you guys have read it. You say you have however I don't believe that you have. The following should cover most issues raised

The bible claims that it is written by God. The term 'thus says the Lord' appears 3000 times in the bible. So that is one reason why you should at least consider it.

You guys seem to what to claim that the bible is unreliable and doesn't stand up to history. Well here are some facts:

There are 5600 full copies of the Greek New Testament at 99.5% accuracy written within 100 years of the events they speak about.

Coming in second to that is Homer's Iliad at 643 copies at 95% accuracy with 500 years of the original.

People ask about the dead sea scrolls. Well in them they found parts of the bible which when compared to the bible we have today are basically identical!! It shows clearly that the bible we have today contains parts of original bible that is accurate.

Then it comes to prophecy the old testament contains 1000's of predictions all of which have been fulfilled.

The bible also mentions the following cities which have all been proven to exit:

Arad, Bethel, Capernaum, Chorazin, Dan, Ephesus, Gaza, Gezer, Hazor, Hesbon, Jericho, Joppa, Nineveh, Shechem, Susa

To finish here is a non christian Greek writing about things that are written in the bible:

Lucian (circa 120-after 180)
"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property."

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11–13, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4, as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

So guys I have posted some hard facts here that if you are critical of Christianity you need to deal with. You can't just say Jesus is a myth or he didn't exist or bible doesn't say something You have to start posted documentation and or bible quotes or quotes from other sources. I would humbly suggest that your beliefs are not based on 1/1000 of the facts that support biblical Christianity.

bgrade_actor

20-08-2008, 04:07 PM

What does the bible say about Jesus?? About about a 100 things!! So for those who tell me that the bible desn't say this or that well here is some evidence:

100 Truths About Jesus from www.carm.org

1. Jesus claimed to be God - John 8:24; 8:56-59 (see Exodus 3:14); John 10:30-33
2. Jesus is called God - John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8
3. Jesus is the image of the invisible God - Heb. 1:3
4. Jesus abides forever - Heb. 7:24
5. Jesus created all things - John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17
6. Jesus is before all things - John 1:1-3; Col. 1:17;
7. Jesus is eternal - John 1:1,14; 8:58; Micah 5:1-2
8. Jesus is honored the same as the Father - John 5:23
9. Jesus is prayed to - Acts 7:55-60; 1 Cor. 1:2 with Psalm 116:41; (John 14:14)
10. Jesus is worshipped - Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6
11. Jesus is omnipresent - Matt. 18:20; 28:20
12. Jesus is with us always - Matt. 28:20
13. Jesus is our only mediator between God and ourselves - 1 Tim. 2:5
14. Jesus is the guarantee of a better covenant - Heb. 7:22; 8:6
15. Jesus said, "I AM the Bread of Life" - John 6:35,41,48,51
16. Jesus said, "I AM the Door" - John 10:7,9
17. Jesus said, "I AM the Good Shepherd" - John 10:11,14
18. Jesus said, "I AM the Way the Truth and The Life" - John 14:6
19. Jesus said, "I AM the Light of the world" - John 8:12; 9:5; 12:46; Luke 2:32
20. Jesus said, "I AM the True Vine" - John 15:1,5
21. Jesus said, "I AM the Resurrection and the Life" - John 11:25
22. Jesus said, "I AM the First and the Last" - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13
23. Jesus always lives to make intercession for us - Heb. 7:25
24. Jesus cleanses from sin - 1 John 1:9
25. Jesus cleanses us from our sins by His blood - Rev. 1:5; Rom. 5:9
26. Jesus forgives sins - Matt. 9:1-7; Luke 5:20; 7:48
27. Jesus saves forever - Matt. 18:11; John 10:28; Heb. 7:25
28. Jesus discloses Himself to us - John 14:21
29. Jesus draws all men to Himself - John 12:32
30. Jesus gives eternal life - John 10:28; 5:40
31. Jesus resurrects - John 5:39; 6:40,44,54; 11:25-26
32. Jesus gives joy - John 15:11
33. Jesus gives peace - John 14:27
34. Jesus has all authority - Matt. 28:18; John 5:26-27; 17:2; 3:35
35. Jesus judges - John 5:22,27
36. Jesus knows all men - John 16:30; John 21:17
37. Jesus opens the mind to understand scripture - Luke 24:45
38. Jesus received honor and glory from the Father - 1 Pet. 1:17
39. Jesus reveals grace and truth - John 1:17 see John 6:45
40. Jesus reveals the Father - Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22
41. Jesus bears witness of Himself - John 8:18; 14:6
42. Jesus' works bear witness of Himself - John 5:36; 10:25
43. The Father bears witness of Jesus - John 5:37; 8:18; 1 John 5:9
44. The Holy Spirit bears witness of Jesus - John 15:26
45. The multitudes bear witness of Jesus - John 12:17
46. The Prophets bear witness of Jesus - Acts 10:43
47. The Scriptures bear witness of Jesus - John 5:39
48. The Father will honor us if we serve Jesus - John 12:26 see Col. 3:24
49. The Father wants us to fellowship with Jesus - 1 Cor. 1:9
50. The Father tells us to listen to Jesus - Luke 9:35; Matt. 17:5
51. Everyone who's heard & learned from the Father comes to Jesus - John 6:45
52. We come to Jesus - John 5:50; 6:35,37,45,65; 7:37;
53. The Father draws us to Jesus - John 6:44
54. The Law leads us to Christ - Gal. 3:24
55. Jesus is the Rock - 1 Cor. 10:4
56. Jesus is the Savior - John 4:42; 1 John 4:14
57. Jesus is the King - Matt. 2:1-6; Luke 23:3
58. In Jesus are the treasures of wisdom and knowledge - Col. 2:2-3
59. In Jesus we have been made complete Col. 2:10
60. Jesus indwells us - Col. 1:27
61. Jesus sanctifies - Heb. 2:11
62. Jesus loves - Eph. 5:25
63. We sin against Jesus - 1 Cor. 8:12
64. We receive Jesus - John 1:12; Col. 2:6
65. Jesus makes many righteous - Rom. 5:19
66. Jesus sends the Holy Spirit - John 15:26
67. Jesus offered up Himself - Heb. 7:27; 9:14
68. Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins for all time - Heb. 10:12
69. The Son of God has given us understanding - 1 John 5:20
70. Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith - Heb. 12:2
71. Jesus is the Apostle and High Priest of our confession - Heb. 1:3
72. Jesus is preparing a place for us in heaven - John 14:1-4
73. Jesus is the Light of the world - Rom. 9:5
74. Jesus has explained the Father - John 1:18
75. Jesus was crucified because of weakness - 2 Cor. 13:4
76. Jesus has overcome the world - John 16:33
77. Truth is in Jesus - Eph. 4:21
78. The fruit of righteousness comes through Jesus Christ - Phil. 1:11
79. Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come - 1 Thess. 1:10
80. Disciples bear witness of Jesus Christ - John 15:27
81. Jesus died for us - 1 Thess. 5:10
82. Jesus died and rose again - 1 Thess. 4:14
83. Jesus was a ransom for many - Matt. 20:28
84. The Christian dead have fallen asleep in Jesus - 1 Thess. 4:15
85. Jesus rendered the devil powerless - Heb. 2:14
86. Jesus is able to save completely - Heb. 7:25
87. Jesus came to serve - Matt. 20:28
88. Jesus came to be a high priest - Heb. 2:17
89. Jesus came to save - John 3:17; Luke 19:10
90. Jesus came to preach the kingdom of God - Luke 4:43
91. Jesus came to bring division - Luke 12:51
92. Jesus came to do the will of the Father - John 6:38
93. Jesus came to give the Father's words - John 17:8
94. Jesus came to testify to the truth - John 18:37
95. Jesus came to set us free from the Law - Rom. 8:2
96. Jesus came to die and destroy Satan's power - Heb. 2:14
97. Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets - Matt. 5:17
98. Jesus came to give life - John 10:10,28
99. Jesus came to taste death for everyone - Heb. 2:9
100. Jesus came to proclaim freedom for believers - Luke 4:18

seanx

20-08-2008, 04:41 PM

My question was simple.

HOW do you KNOW the Bible is the WORD of God?

Who told you it was?

And Your whole belief system rests on that simple, thread-like
assumption?

And below is the reason you believe:

bgrade_actor wrote:

The following should cover most issues raised.
The bible claims that it is written by God. The term 'thus says the Lord' appears 3000 times in the bible. So that is one reason why you should at least consider it.

Your whole belief system is based on the fact that a book that
WANTS you to believe it is the work of God says, 'Yep, I'm the word of
God?'

Well, now it would, wouldnt it?

What do you expect a book that the illuminati set up to
create their mind-control experiment would say?

It is extraordinary but true: if you repeat something long enough,
people will believe it.

God just is.

ISNESS, beyond words and no doubt beyond our normal, everyday
human comprehension.

And yet a group of people tell you that THIS is the word of God -
and you HAVE to obey it ( i.e. obey us, the real creators of it) if
you want to go to 'Heaven' - and people accept it totally.

And then go around quoting it to other people in order to
get other people to follow the exact same con.

Again, a simple question; How do you know the Bible is the word of
God?

And not the work of another interdimensional entity wanting to
trap you in the Matrix?

seanx

20-08-2008, 04:53 PM

There are 5600 full copies of the Greek New Testament at 99.5% accuracy written within 100 years of the events they speak about.

A 100 years!!!

Yet you matrix christians go around quoting the bible word for word.

The Bibe says this......The Bible says that.....

Imagine you had a conversation with a person tonight?

And a 100 years FROM NOW, someone decides to write up an account
of what you SAID?

Don't you see how open it is to TOTAL ABUSE and MANIPULATION?

And now, don't you see why the group who created this system HAD
to add in the belief that these words are the words of God, i
nspired by God?

Becasue it was the only way they could get around this thorny
question.

They know people are stupid - but no matter how stupid we are,
they knew we weren't going to believe that someone could
accurately record a person's conversation a 100 or more years
after they spoke?

But apparently...there are some preople who do...

psychicdefender

20-08-2008, 05:34 PM

Who told you it was?

In my case I went through a great many different experiences and realisations and still do. All of these have led me to believe that what the Bible (or more accurately what Jesus says in the gospels) is true. I didn't just pick up a copy and say "Yeah I believe this cause it says it's true." The argument you are making is the same that readers of Icke would put towards his more fanatical followers (although I don't think he wants any). As Icke says "I'm merely presenting information, it is up to you to decide whether or not it is true." A principle which I use to this day in all aspects of my life where I am dealing with a source that is not within myself.

psychicdefender

20-08-2008, 05:37 PM

And a 100 years FROM NOW, someone decides to write up an account of what you SAID?

Apparently my great uncle who died before I was born said to my mum about 35 years ago, "Slowly, slowly catchy monkey!" at times when she was fed up with my dad. Just a random occurance of information coming down through the decades, it happens, get over it.

element

20-08-2008, 06:20 PM

thirdwave

20-08-2008, 07:01 PM

In my case I went through a great many different experiences and realisations and still do. All of these have led me to believe that what the Bible (or more accurately what Jesus says in the gospels) is true. I didn't just pick up a copy and say "Yeah I believe this cause it says it's true." The argument you are making is the same that readers of Icke would put towards his more fanatical followers (although I don't think he wants any). As Icke says "I'm merely presenting information, it is up to you to decide whether or not it is true." A principle which I use to this day in all aspects of my life where I am dealing with a source that is not within myself.

Just because you have had spiritual experiences it does not prove that Jesus Christ and the bible is real... its just you have chosen to base your experiences on that... Was David Ickes spiritual awakening to do with Jesus Christ?

Nope... even though at the time he thought it was along those lines, but has sence put that straight.

What you are comparing is nothing like what icke enthusiasts do... Icke is alive today and he speaks directly to us in the day and age we live in... and talks about freedom of info and how corrupt our leaders are

Jesus was MEANT to have lived 2000 years ago and today we have a book made up of many different books found at different times, and manife3sted into a religion called Christianity.

thirdwave

20-08-2008, 07:01 PM

Seanx, I give my compliments to you for your time to take this, but it's pointless in the end.

true, but you can but plant seeds...

thirdwave

20-08-2008, 07:05 PM

Firstly this whole idea that history was written by the christians because they 'won' is really a nonsensical argument.

1, Who created Christianity and how long has it been going on for?

2, at what point was it stolen and corrupted?

3, Did Christianity exist before Jesus Christ?

psychicdefender

20-08-2008, 07:10 PM

Just because you have had spiritual experiences it does not prove that Jesus Christ and the bible is real... its just you have chosen to base your experiences on that...

That just isn't true. I find that insights not only tally up with what is written but what is written brings insights and the 'big picture' adds up even more...

Understanding leads to experience and experience leads to understanding.

As for why I believe? That is because I have asked Jesus for 'help' and help has been received. If I turn a tap on and water comes out I don't start thinking that it had nothing to do with turning the tap on, would you?

thirdwave

20-08-2008, 07:33 PM

That just isn't true. I find that insights not only tally up with what is written but what is written brings insights and the 'big picture' adds up even more...

Understanding leads to experience and experience leads to understanding.

As for why I believe? That is because I have asked Jesus for 'help' and help has been received. If I turn a tap on and water comes out I don't start thinking that it had nothing to do with turning the tap on, would you?

so you have practised magick... you evoked a spirit and it helped you... this has been understood in the occult for years and many people do it... and its not just Jesus Christ...

you just now choose to see Jesus Christ as the only one and the real one, that's all...

what do you say to those who have evoked other Entity's into their lives and have felt it has helped them?

awakensong

20-08-2008, 08:28 PM

Seanx, I give my compliments to you for your time to take this, but it's pointless in the end. These brainwashed religious dopers take anything one book says as literal truth, without a shred of real evidence or self evidence to back up their claims. Even if they have self proof, it's still because it's valueble for their current state, and it does NOT mean it must be the same for anyone. Spirituality is unique to every individual and you receive it your own way, so you can understand it with your current beliefs, desires, mistakes, goodies etc. Some around here are just mere book repeaters we have been seeing through history so many times. They know the quotes, but do they know truth?

A book will not safe any of us.

YOU are the salvation. Our soul is the connection. We should stop giving it away to demonised humans that wanted to control, divide, conquer and manipulate truth. Give spirituality a form, gender, name and you get it...religion.
I like how Lloyd Pye (http://www.lloydpye.com)words it: Christians are immune to the truth. I was the same way when I was one of them, so I know what he's saying is right, and I even wrote and told him so. They are afraid to look beyond and think outside the box. Until that fear is overcome, they are stuck.

For me, it began with a realization that things were just not adding up, so I began to do the research. I also learned better than to try to convert people to this new way of thinking and believing. I now see that we each must have our own unique perspective and cosmology, and I have come up with the saying "Live and let live, believe and let believe".

seanx

20-08-2008, 08:41 PM

psychicdefender wrote:
Apparently my great uncle who died before I was born said to my mum about 35 years ago, "Slowly, slowly catchy monkey!" at times when she was fed up with my dad. Just a random occurance of information coming down through the decades, it happens, get over it.

What a nonsensical answer.

We could all 'get over it' if these matrix Christians didn't take
this stuff that is written seriously - and word for word.

The phrase, for one example, 'an eye for an eye' had led in Ireland
alone to thousands of deaths in the recent Northern Ireland Troubles!

In my case I went through a great many different experiences and realisations and still do. All of these have led me to believe that what the Bible (or more accurately what Jesus says in the gospels) is true. I didn't just pick up a copy and say "Yeah I believe this cause it says it's true." The argument you are making is the same that readers of Icke would put towards his more fanatical followers (although I don't think he wants any). As Icke says "I'm merely presenting information, it is up to you to decide whether or not it is true." A principle which I use to this day in all aspects of my life where I am dealing with a source that is not within myself.

No, Icke does not say his book is the WORD of God and must be obeyed.

Your Bible says it is the word of God and must be obeyed.

Again, WHO told you this?

How can that which is INFINITE and ALL-KNOWING be limited and
expressed by a man-made book which is RIDDLED with inconsistencies
and mistakes?

Did God have a bad day ......or maybe it is just a man-made product
to control us?

awakensong

20-08-2008, 08:50 PM

bgrad_actor, regarding your 100 truths about Jesus -- he is a composite and fictitious figure saying and doing things that were said and done MANY times before, by MANY others of antiquity. He has nothing new or original to bring to the table.

He (and what he allegedly "said") can be used to prove any argument or present and support any theory a person wants. He was used as the god of the inquisitions as well as the prince of peace, as well as being updated and given the new name of "Sananda" for the new agers. Now there is even something called Force Ministries (http://www.forceministries.com/index.html) using the idea of Jesus to fight and kill our fellow humans. Something like "bringing others to Christ through force [and violence]". Just look at some of the graphics at their site.

He saves, he kills, just like the loving, vengeful god of the ot. They both have multiple personalities because their stories are drawn from multiple persons.

psychicdefender

20-08-2008, 08:50 PM

so you have practised magick... you evoked a spirit and it helped you... this has been understood in the occult for years and many people do it... and its not just Jesus Christ...

you just now choose to see Jesus Christ as the only one and the real one, that's all...

what do you say to those who have evoked other Entity's into their lives and have felt it has helped them?

You are making a big assumption about what it is I believe, please take it back. Thank you.

I believe that Jesus is an all powerful 'spirit' that created everything. Doesn't mean I don't believe there are other good and bad spirits out there, I just don't think they impart the wisdom of the creator, only the person who builds something can truly explain how it all works!

To those who are on a non-distructive path and have a genuine call to follow ANY path, I would support them/encourage them as best I can. I have often recommended that those who have no concept of God and refuse to consider it but still have a hankering spiritual need, persue buddhism, I have crystals here in my room, I have (although in the past) read the tarot for myself, I recall on one occasion calling on Babaji.

Just because I believe in one thing doesn't mean anything else is ruled out, people who do that sort of thing have closed minds. (And it still amazes me how many turn up on this forum with just such a mindset and yet claim that they can prove XYZ does/doesn't exist...)

psychicdefender

20-08-2008, 08:53 PM

Your Bible says it is the word of God and must be obeyed.

Again, WHO told you this?

Does it? Go read it and come back when you've finished. Relying on assumptions about the subject you are arguing about will only make a fool of you.

awakensong

20-08-2008, 08:57 PM

To those who are on a non-distructive path and have a genuine call to follow ANY path, I would support them/encourage them as best I can. I have often recommended that those who have no concept of God and refuse to consider it but still have a hankering spiritual need, persue buddhism, I have crystals here in my room, I have (although in the past) read the tarot for myself, I recall on one occasion calling on Babaji.
I see absolutely all religions as being Reptilian. I was thinking earlier today how Christianity is sadistic and Buddhism is masochistic. One forces self-degredation, deprivation and flagilation on its followers, and the other induces its followers to apply it to themselves.

thirdwave

20-08-2008, 10:06 PM

You are making a big assumption about what it is I believe, please take it back. Thank you.

You told me that you have asked Jesus Christ for help and he helped you... So unless you saw him at the check out of super market and he gave you a bag of magic apples or something, I would assume that he helped you under the forces of Divination... No?

I believe that Jesus is an all powerful 'spirit' that created everything. Doesn't mean I don't believe there are other good and bad spirits out there, I just don't think they impart the wisdom of the creator, only the person who builds something can truly explain how it all works!

So you are just twisting it... I am not saying other people ask help from spirits... they also asks help from GODS! ..just as you have seen your helper as a GOD... you are just brushing theirs off as just a spirit where yours is the one and only creator ...which is God.

To those who are on a non-distructive path and have a genuine call to follow ANY path, I would support them/encourage them as best I can. I have often recommended that those who have no concept of God and refuse to consider it but still have a hankering spiritual need, persue buddhism, I have crystals here in my room, I have (although in the past) read the tarot for myself, I recall on one occasion calling on Babaji.

This is where when Christians say this they kind of don't sound like Christians.. I was under the impression that they believe the only way to true guidance is through Jesus Christ and the holy spirit... there for if you believe others can find guidance from Buddha and not Jesus Christ then you appear to have just some faith in Christianity..

Just because I believe in one thing doesn't mean anything else is ruled out, people who do that sort of thing have closed minds. (And it still amazes me how many turn up on this forum with just such a mindset and yet claim that they can prove XYZ does/doesn't exist...)

If this is your own personal little belief system that serves you well then great, I would recommend you keep it up. But I'm talking about the Christian belief that Jesus Christ is the one true God of humanity and we can only find salvation through him...

seanx

20-08-2008, 10:27 PM

psychicdefender wrote:
Does it? Go read it and come back when you've finished. Relying on assumptions about the subject you are arguing about will only make a fool of you.

So the Bible is not the word of God now!! That was only a foolish
assumption on our part.

So all millions of people killed because they wouldn't believe all
died in vain.

How very inconvenient for them.

Again, your're left with the same question you can't answer

How do you know the Bible is the word of God?

There is no answer to it because of the INFINITE nature of God himself!

Why not accept that the Bible is only an ordinary book written
by a multitude of different people over a large period of time, all with
different levels of understanding?

Some of these people were very wise as you can see from some
parts of Bible - but others were clearly insane and psychopathic.

Yet the Elite told you it was the WORD of GOD - and because the
'masses' believed this they were willing to kill
and destroy others to 'defend' this God.

How different the history of the world would have been if this
lie had been exposed right at the very beginning.

And here we are at the start of the 21 century .....and there are still
people........trying to get people to continue to believe in this
'story'.

octopusrex

20-08-2008, 10:57 PM

Here's what gets me 'bout xtians.

What part of "do onto others..." do they NOT understand?

bgrade_actor

21-08-2008, 02:29 AM

bgrad_actor, regarding your 100 truths about Jesus -- he is a composite and fictitious figure saying and doing things that were said and done MANY times before, by MANY others of antiquity. He has nothing new or original to bring to the table.

What is your proof? How many other so called prophets died and were raised from the dead? How many other prophets claim to be God? Jesus is unique in that respect alone. And the bible supports that view. I have provided supporting evidence that the bible mentions real people and places, you play the whole 'the bible told you so' line is really a non starter as you are not providing any evidence yet I provide other sources that support what the bible says. If the bible claims to be the word of God and the evidence that supports that then it is possible that the bible is true.

The issue of why do you believe the bible who told you? etc etc

Well as I said the bible claims to be words of God. No other book makes that claim. And as I said before it has real places with real people collaborated by other ancient writings. And as I said before Christianity has had no victories in a worldly sense. The Jews were demolished by the Babylonians Jesus died and then disappeared from the scene. There is no Christian Kingdom like there is a Marxist or Islamic one.

And as I keep saying and have posted there is evidence supporting the bible and that what the bible says is true. You guys seem to want to discredit it but with what? A feather duster?? You don't have much information collaborating you belief system. yet you want to try and tell me that the bible is bollocks and it's all made up. Yet I don't see any evidence supporting that claim at the moment.

And a 100 years FROM NOW, someone decides to write up an account
of what you SAID?

You’re kidding me aren’t you?? Firstly it’s within 100 years of been written so the latest copy was written 100 years from the time of events. Secondly that’s alot better than any other document going around. You guys want to quote all these other sources why don’t you check out how historically accurate they are. Thirdly go ask your grandmother if she can remember things from 80 years ago. I bet she can remember clear as day some significant event from her childhood. So don’t try and tell me that because the bible was written within 100 years at the latest of its events that it’s not creditable.

1, Who created Christianity and how long has it been going on for?
Very very briefly
It was created by God who chose the Jews as his people. They had an original agreement that they would worship God only and then God promised to send a messiah through him all people would be saved and upon death enter into a permanent relationship with God. This is what the Old Testament is about.

The New Testament claims that Jesus is this messiah and through people of all nations can have a permanent ongoing relationship with God.

2, at what point was it stolen and corrupted?

I would suggest that the Catholic Church has corrupted the Christian Faith and their own Catechism does not support what the bible says. As opposed to reformed churches such as the Anglican, Baptist, Methodist etc which have their constitutions based on the bible. Please also remember Christianity is not about going to church. It is about a relationship with God. It is possible but not advisable in the Western world generally to be a Christian and not go to church. I would suggest that if you were in a Hard core Isalmic country this would be highly possible and probably advisable!

3, Did Christianity exist before Jesus Christ?

The faith did yes. The old testament is the framework for the new. It sets the law and the framework for which Jesus worked in. So while the Old Testament Jews weren’t Christians per se, once they are reveled to the messiah they recognize him and are saved through Him. This is because old testament jews know the law, know they are sinners in the sight of God (and as a result had to make sacrifices etc) and know the promise of the messiah in which Jesus fulfills the Old Testament Law. The Jews of Today don’t recognize Jesus as messiah and are still waiting for him to come.

Finally if you are going to rubbish me start posting documentation, I have put supporting evidence here and yet you keep telling the bible’s rubbish but you have nothing to support that view. So how about putting up some supporting documentation for your side of the argument?

amethyst

21-08-2008, 02:42 AM

I see absolutely all religions as being Reptilian. I was thinking earlier today how Christianity is sadistic and Buddhism is masochistic. One forces self-degredation, deprivation and flagilation on its followers, and the other induces its followers to apply it to themselves.

"Religions being Reptilian" yep..agree

"Relationship with God".....thru our spirit communicating with God's Spirit....dats where it's at.

BTW, what would Julie do? Julie would sing her way out of any problem!:D

awakensong

21-08-2008, 07:53 AM

thirdwave

21-08-2008, 11:29 AM

1, Who created Christianity and how long has it been going on for?
Very very briefly
It was created by God who chose the Jews as his people. They had an original agreement that they would worship God only and then God promised to send a messiah through him all people would be saved and upon death enter into a permanent relationship with God. This is what the Old Testament is about.

Ok so here we have the first bullshit story, where a God is racist and is selective of "his people" .... this does not represent a god who supports freedom or love for all.

I would imagin this god created all kinds of shit and there must have much much confrontation and confliction because of him...I'm sure many people grew very tired of this god and suspicious.

The New Testament claims that Jesus is this messiah and through people of all nations can have a permanent ongoing relationship with God.

Indeed, So what we have here is an update to God.... where all of a sudden the old god was wrong...not real... or misunderstood... and they have given EVERYONE a new god, only in order for him to be your god you must know that he is your messiah.

This to me is as obvious as the day light sky that it is simply religion updating its self..

I would suggest that the Catholic Church has corrupted the Christian Faith and their own Catechism does not support what the bible says.

Ok so you have stated that Jesus Christ is nothing but a claim that a book has made... and have failed to state where the book came from... just that it has made claims... So we are left still with no answer as to who put together the bible.. because according to you the people who put it together also corrupted it.... so where was Christianity before they corrupted it?

As opposed to reformed churches such as the Anglican, Baptist, Methodist etc which have their constitutions based on the bible.
Well fair enough but where did they get the bible from?

Please also remember Christianity is not about going to church. It is about a relationship with God. It is possible but not advisable in the Western world generally to be a Christian and not go to church.
I know its not only about going to chruch.... that is just one of the extreme cock ups the religion has brought... but just because there are less brainwashed christians it does not mean they are right.

How ever you practice it, if you believe that Jesus Christ is the only way for humans to find salvation and through him is the way to Christ (as the bible states) then you are apart of the dogma and your judgements will be rooted from that book...

I would suggest that if you were in a Hard core Isalmic country this would be highly possible and probably advisable!
Just becuase currently there are worst things going on within other religions it does not justify another...they have all had there day of blood.

3, Did Christianity exist before Jesus Christ?

The faith did yes.

Hence Jesus Christ is not the messiah.

The old testament is the framework for the new.

Very much so.

It sets the law and the framework for which Jesus worked in.

Very much so.

So while the Old Testament Jews weren’t Christians per se, once they are reveled to the messiah they recognize him and are saved through Him.

But you have said that Christ was known before Jesus... so why was Jesus needed to save them?... why was the Christ program not working prior to him?

This is because old testament jews know the law, know they are sinners in the sight of God (and as a result had to make sacrifices etc) and know the promise of the messiah in which Jesus fulfills the Old Testament Law. The Jews of Today don’t recognize Jesus as messiah and are still waiting for him to come.

Yeah, crazy shit!..... but what do you think Moses was?

Finally if you are going to rubbish me start posting documentation, I have put supporting evidence here and yet you keep telling the bible’s rubbish but you have nothing to support that view. So how about putting up some supporting documentation for your side of the argument?

You have done nothing but post views based on and textes taken from the very religion we are pointing out has come from an invalid source.

your religion is nothing more than based on Faith, this is a fact.... and in order to have that faith you have to dismise alot of other historical events...

bgrade_actor

21-08-2008, 04:20 PM

Ok so here we have the first bullshit story, where a God is racist and is selective of "his people" .... this does not represent a god who supports freedom or love for all..

Again I am astounded at the igorance! I just laughed when I read your post here. If you have read the bible you will know that there were people in the old testament who became Jews from other races! While salvation was not available outside of the Jewish People if you decided that the Jews were correct then you would have to have leave your people and go and join the Jews worshiping the Jewish God. But you were still a Samarian or whatever by race. The New testament removed this requirement and so we don't have to become Jews and follow Jewish Law. So God isn't racist and to make your statement even more ridiculous that the bible in revelation talks about there being people in heaven from all the corners of the earth.

This to me is as obvious as the day light sky that it is simply religion updating its self..

However you forget that there is a small problem of justification. In the old testament there is the issue of sin. God says that he is just and he holy and as a result if you are a sinner you cannot be reconciled with God. So he then sent his only Son Jesus who died for us and who ever believes him as Lord will be reconciled with God. Now the Jews in the Old Testament had to make sacrifices for their sin, usually a lamb. When they die I would suppose they would have some opportunity to see Jesus for who he is.

Yeah, crazy shit!..... but what do you think Moses was?

Err a Jew?? And the point being?

You have done nothing but post views based on and textes taken from the very religion we are pointing out has come from an invalid source.

Err no if you bother to read the previous page I have supplied non Christian writings that collaborate with what the bible says. I have also supplied a list of places that are real that have been found today that are in the bible. You are just ignoring very plain simple facts. So I am supporting my argument. Yet you guys have zero supporting documentation, zero evidence and you tell me I need faith???

Dude it takes more faith to believe in what you are saying that anything I've said.

amethyst

21-08-2008, 04:21 PM

BGA -- my proof is all throughout history. Where is yours?

Another thing about "turning the other cheek" regarding the hypocrisy of the NT is:

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/IMAGES/waco.jpg
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
– Luke 22.36

When do cheek-turners use swords? Why did the fabricated apostles carry swords? Why did one of them try to cut off a centurion's ear?

Also, why do the gospels list different geneologies, have different times of day for the crucifixion, have different and sometimes multiple instances for the deaths/ martyrdoms of the apostles? There are 3 different and opposing accounts for the death of Judas Iscariot, as well as others.

There is no proof outside the gospels that any of those persons existed, so it does not prove itself. It is a story of the Sun (Jesus) riding its chariot through the 12 signs of the Zodiac (apostles/ tribes), better known as Astro-Theology.
==========

Amethyst -- yes, exactly -- Julie would sing a cheerful, uplifting tune no matter what she encountered. That's loads better than taking up a sword and smiting the Philistine. :) Love never fails, as David says, only love is infinite.

Heh, seems no one read my posts about cross referencing scriptures. :rolleyes:

You can't just take out one scripture and isolate it and then determine it's meaning. You have to compare it to other scripture to get the full "jist" of what it might be saying.

For example, this scripture you sited Luke 22:36: this same incident is also mentioned in the book of Matthew. In chapter 26:52-54 it shows Jesus was opposed to violence because He says to one of the disciples who cut off the ear of the high priest:

" But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

"Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?

"How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"

It is most helpful when refering to scripture to also look for other scriptures to compare against it, to get a fuller understanding of what really happened or what is actually being said in a particular teaching.

BTW,I"d be singing right along with Julie. :)

lizzy

21-08-2008, 04:58 PM

amethyst, I admire your defense of the love of Jesus. I might just have to find myself a "good' ( non new-age , non-Isreali supporting) church.;)

seanx

21-08-2008, 05:50 PM

bgrade_actor wrote:
In the old testament there is the issue of sin. God says that he is just and he holy and as a result if you are a sinner you cannot be reconciled with God. So he then sent his only Son Jesus who died for us and who ever believes him as Lord will be reconciled with God.

Your posts are laughable ...but also very sad.

I mean look at this control nonsense you are being fed.

You are BEING TOLD that you are a sinner ( i.e something wrong with
you) and the ONLY solution to 'cure' this thing that is wrong with
you is to give yourself and your Will over to this 'entity' - Jesus!

So he then sent his only Son Jesus who died for
us and who ever believes him as Lord will be reconciled with
God

What SICK life-hating gargage.

This GOD of yours ( who is supposed to be ALL-LOVING) inflicted
unimaginable, incomprehensible pain, suffering and AGONY on a man
named Jesus so that your sins could be forgiven!!

Can you grasp the SICKNESS of this MATRIX belief system.

If God did this, then this God is an insane totally psychotic force.

Are you a father?

Have you EVER held a child in your hands?

Would you crucify one of your children if they disobeyed
you?

Can't you see how sick this idealogy you have been brain-fed.

If God IS an Infinite, All-loving, All-knowing Presence infinitely present
everywhere -why would such a Presence which is ALREADY ALL
LOVE and ALL beings NEED to destroy and crucify one of them so
that the rest ( which is himself) will obey him?

Do you see how you matrix christans and ALL THE rest of the
mainstram religions PERVERT the ture nature of Infinite Being
with these Elite man-made religions.

seanx

21-08-2008, 05:55 PM

Lizzy wrote:

amethyst, I admire your defense of the love of Jesus. I might just have to find myself a "good' ( non new-age , non-Isreali supporting) church

So Lizzy wants to join your Elite created man-made religion.

Says it all.

But who's surprised!

thirdwave

21-08-2008, 06:14 PM

Again I am astounded at the igorance! I just laughed when I read your post here. If you have read the bible you will know that there were people in the old testament who became Jews from other races! While salvation was not available outside of the Jewish People if you decided that the Jews were correct then you would have to have leave your people and go and join the Jews worshiping the Jewish God. But you were still a Samarian or whatever by race. The New testament removed this requirement and so we don't have to become Jews and follow Jewish Law. So God isn't racist and to make your statement even more ridiculous that the bible in revelation talks about there being people in heaven from all the corners of the earth.

My ignorance??? .. you laugh???, have you listened to your self? LOL

I was commenting on your comments! your "answers" to my simple questions.. I know all I need to know about the bible and would not dream of giving it a second more of my attention... If god at any time selected one race then he was racist... its very simple... I don't care what agreements where made and what other bollox was cooked up... at one stage he was meant to favour Jews.... and it was only in Jesus Christ others would get a crack at the whip... colour it in as you like.. and stop trying to make out those who think the bible is full of shit have not read it, because reading it is what exposes how much bullshit is in it.

listen to your self... your whole faith is from two books that you have no idea who created them.

However you forget that there is a small problem of justification. In the old testament there is the issue of sin. God says that he is just and he holy and as a result if you are a sinner you cannot be reconciled with God. So he then sent his only Son Jesus who died for us and who ever believes him as Lord will be reconciled with God. Now the Jews in the Old Testament had to make sacrifices for their sin, usually a lamb. When they die I would suppose they would have some opportunity to see Jesus for who he is.

Yes this is already established... and the thing is what you fail (refuse) to see is that Jesus Christ may have saved out sins.... but only if you reconcile with him.... he came and saved us from sin!!!... and then told us not to do it again... and he would help! :rolleyes:

Err a Jew?? And the point being?

Well ok he was a Jew... but what was all that splitting the sea buisness about...?

Err no if you bother to read the previous page I have supplied non Christian writings that collaborate with what the bible says. I have also supplied a list of places that are real that have been found today that are in the bible. You are just ignoring very plain simple facts. So I am supporting my argument. Yet you guys have zero supporting documentation, zero evidence and you tell me I need faith???

Oh I read it, and just because someone says they are not a christian it does not mean they are not getting there info from christians.

my point stands.

Dude it takes more faith to believe in what you are saying that anything I've said.

LOL, I don't believe in two books thousands of years old hold the key... and there is not a SPECK of evidence to say they do.

its FAITH. Even if half of the bullshit can be cleaned up be people like you, there is just a ton more stacks to throw on the table.. good luck... Im not going to spend hours here teaching you.... believe what you want.

FACT.

thirdwave

21-08-2008, 06:20 PM

I might just have to find myself a "good' (non-Isreali supporting) church.;)

Good luck!! lol

amethyst

21-08-2008, 07:16 PM

amethyst, I admire your defense of the love of Jesus. I might just have to find myself a "good' ( non new-age , non-Isreali supporting) church.;)

Lizzy,I prefer a gathering of souls (as opposed to a church building) just sitting around sharing what's on their heart and enjoying the fellowship and food..;)..kinda like the first Christians did in the book of Acts.....no pretense...... just good feelings, good vibrations and love. :)

flowers, fields, fellowship and song......

Sorry, (sigh) I have a litle John Denver on the brain :D

awakensong

21-08-2008, 07:37 PM

Heh, seems no one read my posts about cross referencing scriptures. :rolleyes:

You can't just take out one scripture and isolate it and then determine it's meaning. You have to compare it to other scripture to get the full "jist" of what it might be saying.

For example, this scripture you sited Luke 22:36: this same incident is also mentioned in the book of Matthew. In chapter 26:52-54 it shows Jesus was opposed to violence because He says to one of the disciples who cut off the ear of the high priest:

" But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

"Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?

"How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"

It is most helpful when refering to scripture to also look for other scriptures to compare against it, to get a fuller understanding of what really happened or what is actually being said in a particular teaching.

BTW,I"d be singing right along with Julie. :)
So you sell your clothing to buy a sword, just so you can put it back in its place? Why didn't he tell them not to just do that, but to sell the sword and give the money to the poor?

I've read the whole bible many times, and was a music and prayer minister for a long time. The bible contradicts itself again and again.

awakensong

21-08-2008, 07:39 PM

"Religions being Reptilian" yep..agree

"Relationship with God".....thru our spirit communicating with God's Spirit....dats where it's at.

BTW, what would Julie do? Julie would sing her way out of any problem!:D
Who or what is God to you? Is it mental telepathy that you communicate that way? I had to take a good honest look at all this when I once felt like and talked like you are now.

amethyst

21-08-2008, 07:55 PM

So you sell your clothing to buy a sword, just so you can put it back in its place? Why didn't he tell them not to just do that, but to sell the sword and give the money to the poor?

I've read the whole bible many times, and was a music and prayer minister for a long time. The bible contradicts itself again and again.

I don't have an answer for that Awakesong....that's something you might want to ask Jesus, if you are so inclined....maybe He will enlighten to why He did what He did :)

Isn't life a paradox at times?

I find often times, that things appears different to me at different times in my life......depending on where I am at on this journey called life. Where once I did not have answers to those probing questions, now, because I see with new eyes, I have a totally different perspective and understanding.

Where once the dance was a slow waltz, now becomes an exhuberant celebration of freedom and liberty, all because God changes your perspective on things.

Sort a like this song :)

John Denver - "The Eagle and the Hawk" - YouTube

psychicdefender

21-08-2008, 08:08 PM

You told me that you have asked Jesus Christ for help and he helped you...

Yes I did say that. What you said was "you just now choose to see Jesus Christ as the only one and the real one, that's all..." And I have explained that I don't, I repeat:

I believe that Jesus is an all powerful 'spirit' that created everything. Doesn't mean I don't believe there are other good and bad spirits out there

I can see now that like so many who visit this part of the forum, you are here for 'cheap shots', your responses to mine have lacked any coherence and have amply demonstrated that you aren't even paying attention to what I am saying.

Good luck.

amethyst

21-08-2008, 08:10 PM

Who or what is God to you? Is it mental telepathy that you communicate that way? I had to take a good honest look at all this when I once felt like and talked like you are now.

No not mental telepathy.

One can communicate with God thru their spirit,to His Spirit when they allow Him to breath on them the breath of a new life.....being reborn anew of His Spirit. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus gently like a dove.

And God gives this gift of His Spirit to mankind also, but they must ask for it.

God is all that is, all that was and all that ever shall be.

He is the Creator and the giver of life, of love and of freedom.

He is exquisitely beautiful and awesome in wisdom and in power.....yet He is so delicate in His tenderness.

God is LOVE.

God is the great I AM.

element

21-08-2008, 08:14 PM

awakensong

21-08-2008, 08:24 PM

I don't have an answer for that Awakesong....that's something you might want to ask Jesus, if you are so inclined....maybe He will enlighten to why He did what He did :)

It was a rhetorical question, Amethyst. One that already has a logical answer.

awakensong

21-08-2008, 08:27 PM

No not mental telepathy.

One can communicate with God thru their spirit,to His Spirit when they allow Him to breath on them the breath of a new life.....being reborn anew of His Spirit. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus gently like a dove.

And God gives this gift of His Spirit to mankind also, but they must ask for it.

God is all that is, all that was and all that ever shall be.

He is the Creator and the giver of life, of love and of freedom.

He is exquisitely beautiful and awesome in wisdom and in power.....yet He is so delicate in His tenderness.

God is LOVE.

God is the great I AM.
God is LOVE when God is BEING Love, making sense and being honest, which in the bible is very hard to find. I have come to say it the other way around, that Love is God. It is a matter of a person's energy vibrations at any given time.

You disagree very much with Icke. I came here to find people to talk with who agree with him, not to fight with people who still don't get it.

seanx

21-08-2008, 08:27 PM

psychicdefender wrote:

I can see now that like so many who visit this part of the forum, you are here for 'cheap shots', your responses to mine have lacked any coherence and have amply demonstrated that you aren't even paying attention to what I am saying.

Good luck.

Because, frankly you talk complete nonsense. Robotic stuff like
any mind-controlled person.

amethyst wrote:

God is all that is, all that was and all that ever shall be.

He is the Creator and the giver of life, of love and of freedom.

He is exquisitely beautiful and awesome in wisdom and in power.....yet He is so delicate in His tenderness.

God is LOVE.

God is the great I AM.

That is well put.

But then your 'christianity' tells us that 'God' sent his 'only son'
Jesus to die and suffer for us so that we could be 'saved us?

I'll ask you the same question I asked bgrade_actor who
couldn't answered:

This is sick stuff, isn't really.

A total pervsion of the love and NATURE of God.

Are you a mother?

Have you EVER held a child in your hands?

Would you crucify one of your children if they disobeyed
you?

If God IS an Infinite, All-loving, All-knowing Presence infinitely present
everywhere -why would such a Presence which is ALREADY ALL
LOVE and ALL beings NEED to destroy and crucify one of them so
that the rest ( which is himself) will obey him?

Do you see how you matrix christans and ALL THE rest of the
mainstram religions PERVERT the ture nature of Infinite Being
with these Elite man-made religions.

awakensong

21-08-2008, 08:45 PM

If God IS an Infinite, All-loving, All-knowing Presence infinitely present
everywhere -why would such a Presence which is ALREADY ALL
LOVE and ALL beings NEED to destroy and crucify one of them so
that the rest ( which is himself) will obey him?
Right! And if fear is the way to get people to obey (with both obedience and "worship" being an ego trip for this entity), where would there be any room for loving God, since that is the opposite of fear?

Most Christians do not understand the real meaning of "forever" and "eternal" in the Greek. Get a lexicon and do your homework - they mean "for an age". Why does it say forever "and ever", if one forever is enough to last infinitely? Get a Greek lexicon, that's what I did. I proved it to myself. Also, look up the word "hell" in the Greek lexicon - it might surprise you greatly to find out what it really means.

thirdwave

21-08-2008, 09:09 PM

Yes I did say that. What you said was "you just now choose to see Jesus Christ as the only one and the real one, that's all..." And I have explained that I don't, I repeat:

I can see now that like so many who visit this part of the forum, you are here for 'cheap shots', your responses to mine have lacked any coherence and have amply demonstrated that you aren't even paying attention to what I am saying.

Good luck.

We are talking about GODS...Creators.... should you be a new kind of christian (as if we need another bunch) that thinks there are others gods out there as well then I guess I am not very familier with your kind.

you pay attention.

thirdwave

21-08-2008, 09:10 PM

No not mental telepathy.

One can communicate with God thru their spirit,to His Spirit when they allow Him to breath on them the breath of a new life.....being reborn anew of His Spirit. The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus gently like a dove.

And God gives this gift of His Spirit to mankind also, but they must ask for it.

God is all that is, all that was and all that ever shall be.

He is the Creator and the giver of life, of love and of freedom.

He is exquisitely beautiful and awesome in wisdom and in power.....yet He is so delicate in His tenderness.

God is LOVE.

God is the great I AM.

Yes I agree God is love....

What are your views on other people who have felt other gods (not Jesus Christ) have showed them the light?

awakensong

21-08-2008, 09:45 PM

mcthompson2x

21-08-2008, 10:40 PM

The bottom line to all this is, all religions, all gods, gurus and saviours exist within the Matrix. Anyone espousing any of these is knowingly or unknowingly a Matrix agent. How are you being loving if you are leading people into a cult?

That's a pretty broad assumption, it's like those people who assume if you believe any occult knowledge could be true then you are sided with the Illuminati. That's not true. I believe God put the wonders of the universe here for us to explore in a giving/positive way, so that we may remember the true nature of reality. After all, is one an agent of the Matrix if one of these ET or ED intelligences communicates with him/her and he accepts that it has happened?

Allowing for the existence of greater/different beings and the potential for positive communication with those beings doesn't necessarily mean one has sided with the cult that the Elites belong to.

awakensong

21-08-2008, 11:33 PM

I believe God put the wonders of the universe here for us to explore in a giving/positive way, so that we may remember the true nature of reality.

That's because you believe IN a God, and that is not Oneness, which is what the Icke theory is about, and is what I wish to explore further with other Icke theorists on this forum.

IMO, if there really and truly was a God, there would really and truly be no Matrix.

After all, is one an agent of the Matrix if one of these ET or ED intelligences communicates with him/her and he accepts that it has happened?
Yes, if they try to pull others into that acceptance with them. They are conned by it if they believe it themselves, and become an agent of it if they take it to others. The truth is deeply within each of us, we don't need "an other" to find it for us. It is dangerous to believe someone else's version of the truth rather than find it for yourself.

Allowing for the existence of greater/different beings and the potential for positive communication with those beings doesn't necessarily mean one has sided with the cult that the Elites belong to.
How does one know with whom they are communicating? Why would they accept any of it if they can't see who it is? Better yet, why would they accept something another entity tells them, rather than discover for themselves?

mcthompson2x

21-08-2008, 11:46 PM

I think that you are ultimately right, and BTW I don't believe in a god per se, I believe that we are God, remembering how to exist. We are all as One, as you say, however in our current mode of perception we are individuals who are only connected through the spirit, and there is a separation of perspective. I think we are evolving toward our ultimate remembrance, which is that we are God. As all individuals are really just other psychic aspects of our own selves, so are other entities and I think that by knowing other entities or thought processes, we expand our own awareness. This is what teaching is all about. I don't think that it's possible for anyone "alive" here in the 3rd dimension to remember how to be God and control everything or else it would have already happened. We are limited because our evolution is progressive. Towards that purpose, learning helps us evolve, and other entities have things to teach us. As long as we know what the Truth is - that God is love and all actions that are not love are regressive - then we can discern truth from fiction when we speak to these entities and in the same way that we determine good people from bad people, we can determine good spirits from bad spirits. As people have power through association, and all people are only entities using dense "physical" bodies as vehicles, then all entities must have power through association and knowledge. The problem is when people don't know the difference between good (evolutionary, progressive) and bad (regressive) knowledge - then they can't discern wisdom from information. Anyway, all I'm saying is that if we are all aspects of each other, then other dimensional entities are also aspects of ourselves, or archetypal intelligences. So, there is nothing wrong with communicating with them, anymore so than communicating with your brother or sister or best friend. The truth is where one finds it, and a lot of people choose to go down the wrong path because that is the only way that they can learn, even if they think they're doing the right things for the right reasons. In a way, I think that negativity at this point in the spiritual cycle of humans, exists inevitably because we have failed to fully evolve our psychic potential.

awakensong

22-08-2008, 12:04 AM

mcthompson2x

22-08-2008, 12:48 AM

There could be something very wrong about it. They could be vibrating at low or negative frequencies. They will lie and trick people. I don't trust any of it. Just because we're all an aspect of the One doesn't mean we're all operating on the same wavelength. That's how there can be this Matrix we are in.

The point I made before is that you cannot see with whom you are communicating from the spirit realm. You bring up the point now about communicating with a sibling or friend, but you can see them and know with whom you are speaking. I would not, however, apply anything they say to myself. It is irrelevant to me what they believe or what their path is. I can only do myself an injustice by following someone else.

Well, they COULD be vibrating on low or negative frequencies, but someone who can recognize such things would recognize whether or not the input s/he is receiving from outside entities is negative or positive. Discernment is very important, of course... but I am saying, it's not necessarily that great of an idea to assume that everything trying to communicate with you is evil. A lot of times there are light entities that merely need a request to help us out and imbue us with certain knowledge or energy. Like guardian angels, for instance. While it is easy to trick people, someone who knows how to act only out of love will recognize when s/he is being asked to perform actions that are counteractive to love. It's pretty easy to tell when someone is trying to manipulate you once you realize the difference between light and dark.

amethyst

22-08-2008, 01:37 AM

I don't always agree with you Amethyst, I do somehow with your last post though about god. I just have a different view on Jesus. Anyway, your posts are always very warm and friendly, you are what other ''chirstians'' fail to be.

Well I look at that avatar you have element......I see a beautiful creation, the wolf, all those colors of his fur blending together so uniquely, with the snow softly covering his fur....I see a creation, created and fashioned in love..
.....and I see God and His goodness that He would make and create so many different type of animals and creatures and mountains and oceans

I can't speak for anyone else, but I see creation reflecting the majesty, the mystery and the glory of God, who I believe created all that is good and who will at a certain time, restore the earth back to a place that reflects His radiance of who He really is.

thirdwave

22-08-2008, 11:30 AM

God, who I believe created all that is good and who will at a certain time, restore the earth back to a place that reflects His radiance of who He really is.

Does this God include other peoples Gods that they have expirience that have nothing really to do with Jesus Christ?

bgrade_actor

22-08-2008, 04:23 PM

But then your 'christianity' tells us that 'God' sent his 'only son'
Jesus to die and suffer for us so that we could be 'saved us?

There is the issue in the bible of sin. You say that it is a contradiction that God loved his son but got him killed. The bible says that God so loved the world he sent his only son. So God love us so much that he was prepared to sacrifice his only son so that we might might have eternal relationship with him. You say its sick yet if you think about that is how much love God has for his people.

Oh I read it, and just because someone says they are not a christian it does not mean they are not getting there info from christians.

Yeah but what’s your source and documentation for that opinion? You could possibly be right but what are you using to support that opinion? I think your point has been sent to the third umpire looking for some documentation.

Not sure where you’re going with Moses? Don’t understand

As for my documentation being corrupt or invalid, well maybe so I would be happy to see some proof that I am wrong and have be sold a lemon. However again you guys are a bit light on for supporting documentation for your belief system. You can’t just discret known history without at least something that supports your case.

and there is not a SPECK of evidence to say they do.

But you have nothing? You can’t discredit the bible or me without any support. Yet I put in here plenty of supporting points, all the towns, the other writings etc yet you have not put any evidence forward that either supports you or discredits me? Just saying I’m wrong or stupid doesn’t really carry a lot of weight. You couldn’t argue like that in a court. So show me some evidence that I am wrong.

thirdwave

22-08-2008, 04:41 PM

There is the issue in the bible of sin. You say that it is a contradiction that God loved his son but got him killed. The bible says that God so loved the world he sent his only son. So God love us so much that he was prepared to sacrifice his only son so that we might might have eternal relationship with him. You say its sick yet if you think about that is how much love God has for his people.

Yeah but what’s your source and documentation for that opinion? You could possibly be right but what are you using to support that opinion? I think your point has been sent to the third umpire looking for some documentation.

Not sure where you’re going with Moses? Don’t understand

As for my documentation being corrupt or invalid, well maybe so I would be happy to see some proof that I am wrong and have be sold a lemon. However again you guys are a bit light on for supporting documentation for your belief system. You can’t just discret known history without at least something that supports your case.

But you have nothing? You can’t discredit the bible or me without any support. Yet I put in here plenty of supporting points, all the towns, the other writings etc yet you have not put any evidence forward that either supports you or discredits me? Just saying I’m wrong or stupid doesn’t really carry a lot of weight. You couldn’t argue like that in a court. So show me some evidence that I am wrong.

there is but you just ignore it... and for a book to make such an ilogical claim, and a book that has been SOOOOOO easily fucked around with I think it had the job to convince and for all its effects in the world should do a damn good job at it...

Even if you want to go around brushing off DVDs like Zeitgeist or "The God that was not there" ... if half of the info in them is true .... then there is more then enough to show you just in those DVDs how much can be exposed.....

I have not got the time right now to show you how much bullshit you arfe defending is there... but I will, I will have to cook up a nice one and see how much of an ignorant reaction it will create.

seanx

22-08-2008, 05:46 PM

bgrade_actor wrote:

There is the issue in the bible of sin. You say that it is a contradiction that God loved his son but got him killed. The bible says that God so loved the world he sent his only son. So God love us so much that he was prepared to sacrifice his only son so that we might might have eternal relationship with him. You say its sick yet if you think about that is how much love God has for his people.

Listen to what you write here.

let me ask you again;

Are you a father? Have you EVER held a child in your hands?

Would you crucify one of your children if they disobeyed
you? Or as an 'example' to your 'other children'?

What kind of being would do that?

And if you are already All-love ( as Christianity tells us God is), why
would God need to punish 'his children' to get them to love him?

Don't you see how ridiculous and contradictiorary that is?

Don't you see you're been sold an insidious con by people who
are consciously perverting the true nature of God,
of BEING .

Being IS.

It is EVERYONE and EVERYTHING NOW.

It is totally present even in the tiniest atom. It is holographic.
All of it is present everywhere, ALL the time.

2,000 years ago and today.

So God does not NEED your love. Your obedience. He/she/it already
IS it NOW. In it's absolute TOTALITY.

God so loved the world he sent his only son.

His only son?

Who told you this?

Yes, the Bible again.

EVERYTHING you believe comes from what the Bible tells you. You
seem to believe everything in it?

But this guy Jesus told us that God was 'Our Father '. That we're all
brothers and sisters.

You seem to think he's the only son ....and as the only son, his
father, God decided to inflict the agony of hell upon him as a
warning to his other sons and daughters !

Doesn't this God that your matrix Christanity describes him as sound
more like a Mafia Boss than a God of love!

Can't you see, this is the same old story again.

We are sinners, we are sick - so we need help - and where can
we get help? You bet! of course ONLY from the priests and the church.

Then you tell us :

There is the issue in the bible of sin

What sin?

How do you know we have sinned? That we are unworthy
and must be 'saved'. And that we need the 'church'?

Who told you this?

Doesn't it all same very convenient, very 'controlled'?

makemyday

22-08-2008, 07:38 PM

Recommended videos exposing Christian Church by Bible prophecies!

Youtube:
Part 1
Part 2

:D

eternal_spirit

22-08-2008, 07:41 PM

LOL the irony ^

awakensong

22-08-2008, 07:57 PM

Recommended videos exposing Christian Church by Bible prophecies!

Youtube:
Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUH4fu4NheQ)
Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4QHrDYX9KI)

:D
I remember when all that fallderall was on TV about the pope dying. There were periodic updates of "Oh, he's worse now than an hour ago". "Oh, he's worse again". This went on and on as if someone were reading a script, and the day it was happening was April 1, which in many parts of the world is April Fool's Day!

I believed then and still do, that is the day he died, but they didn't want it going down in history that way because too many people would see it as a clue and omen that the vatican and catholic church are a fake. So they extended it out until it was April 2 all over the world, then announced his death. Did anyone else think this?

awakensong

22-08-2008, 08:21 PM

The bible also mentions the following cities which have all been proven to exit:
Arad, Bethel, Capernaum, Chorazin, Dan, Ephesus, Gaza, Gezer, Hazor, Hesbon, Jericho, Joppa, Nineveh, Shechem, Susa

What about all the towns that are proven NOT to have existed, that the bible includes?

Nazareth (the most important of all, wouldn't you say?) has been proven to come from the Old Testament word "Mazzaroth" (Book of Job), which means Zodiac, and was not in existence as a town or city during recorded bible times. Again we come full circle to the fact that the bible is a book about Astro-Theology. The original name for the bible is Helios Biblos (which does not translate to "Holy Bible") but which means Book of the Sun. Jesus is the Sun riding his chariot through the 12 Houses of the Zodiac. The 12 Apostles are those houses.

Also, Capernaum is a river, not a city.

There are others if you would like me to continue...

thirdwave

23-08-2008, 01:42 AM

I would just like to say..

I don't want to come across as a bully to people who clearly need a belief system to keep them selves sane...

that's fair enough if this is what you need and it its going to help you...

and Im not saying that you should not have your god to help your head out...

I am saying that you don't need the bible and for a pre written faith to do this...

you should understand the power of YOU and YOUR mind and if you want a Jesus Christ to be your salvation and to offer you security... then great, create that, but remember you are the creator of it... it is not the creator of you...

by all means rejoice in your creation and enjoy the powers it offers you .... but also respect others creations....

after all as long as they are not taking others creations away or freedoms then there should be no problem....

conspiraca

23-08-2008, 01:48 AM

Well said............

lizzy

23-08-2008, 01:51 AM

I actually agree Wave,,,,,LOL:eek:

mcthompson2x

23-08-2008, 02:08 AM

My big problem with Christians is that they assume non-Christians are damned, or ignorant, or just don't get it. I don't understand why all belief systems can't be respected. Christians can be the nicest people, but it is so arrogant to assume that you are correct when there is so much evidence to the contrary. Anyone in this thread who claims there isn't a lot of evidence discrediting Christianity has CLEARLY never used Google to research it, because there is plenty and plenty of evidence, outside of the actions of Christian controllers over the centuries. It is believed that it is upon the person who disbelieves in Christ to prove it, when that is not the case. It isn't up to anyone to prove why they believe anything, except for the individual to prove to himself why what he believes is a fact. Belief relies on faith, and I don't like the word. Faith is something that is required without evidence - people should only believe things that they can personally understand. To be afraid of things that confuse you or that don't make sense within your context, or to simply assume that those things are false because they don't fit in with your paradigm, is to say to ignorance that you accept it and find it necessary.

Christians need to look into the origins of the early church and the formation of the Bible. It doesn't matter what translation of the Bible you are reading, it was created by the same people for the same purpose. The truth is simple, but it's very complex at the same time (just like the human body). Christ wants Christians to know the truth. I'm probably arrogant too if we define arrogant as knowing you are right, and I freely admit that I could be wrong, but I think most Christians do not know most of the information that is necessary in understanding the creation of Christianity, which goes back to the formation of the Catholic Church in the Roman empire.

madthumbs

23-08-2008, 04:48 AM

I don't understand why all belief systems can't be respected.

You respect ritual infant genital mutilation, genocide, slavery, rape, etc?

Christians can be the nicest people, but it is so arrogant to assume that you are correct when there is so much evidence to the contrary.

Christians kill witches, homosexuals and adulterers, and they're nice?

seekingthetruth

23-08-2008, 08:19 AM

You respect ritual infant genital mutilation, genocide, slavery, rape, etc?

Christians kill witches, homosexuals and adulterers, and they're nice?

You've used that point in another post, and you had no evidence to back up your claims in that discussion, so I don't understand why you are bringing that point up again. If you are not able to read a verse in the Bible in it's context, then don't bother repeating yourself for the sake of ... anger ... hatetred ... whatever.

There is FAR more evidence that links Athiesm to Eugenics operations and Darwinian genocide than anything else, so let's try to keep this debate on a mature level rather than tear each other down.

Remember, just because someone calls themselves a Christian, that doesn't make them one. George W Bush calls himself a Christian ... and it's pretty obvious that he's not a Christian ... he's a hypocrite and a liar.

My big problem with Christians is that they assume non-Christians are damned, or ignorant, or just don't get it. I don't understand why all belief systems can't be respected. Christians can be the nicest people, but it is so arrogant to assume that you are correct when there is so much evidence to the contrary.

It is also not fair to say that Christians aren't entitled to believe that those who do not repent of their sins and put their faith in Jesus Christ are not saved. This is part of our belief system, and is just as valid as any other. This of course does not mean we don't acknowledge other beliefs to exist, all it means is that we simply refuse to accept other religions as a valid form of faith when they go completely contrary to what the Bible teaches. When you say it's intolerant for Christians to believe what we believe, that is simply hypocritical. If we say (according to our beliefs) that you are going to Hell if you don't repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus Christ, then what does it matter if you don't even believe in what we say? If my belief is that I will spend eternity living in a giant watermelon ... then I am entitled to do so ... although that doesn't mean it is right.

As Christians we have come to a conclusion regarding life after death, and simply want to tell others about it so that they may become saved. Wouldn't you do the same thing if you were in our shoes?

Think of it this way ... If it was your belief that someone you know would perish if they didn't repent of their sins and put their trust in Jesus, would you not want to share the Gospel with them so they might be saved?

(That was a hypothetical question ... please don't respond telling me how the Bible isn't true, or whatever else)

Hope that clears some of that up ...

madthumbs

23-08-2008, 11:52 AM

You've used that point in another post, and you had no evidence to back up your claims in that discussion, so I don't understand why you are bringing that point up again. If you are not able to read a verse in the Bible in it's context, then don't bother repeating yourself for the sake of ... anger ... hatetred ... whatever

If I took a verse out of context, you could clarify it's meaning by showing the context but you didn't did you?

There is FAR more evidence that links Athiesm to Eugenics operations and Darwinian genocide than anything else, so let's try to keep this debate on a mature level rather than tear each other down.

How was the "Promised Land" delivered to the Israelites in the Bible? How are the Jews (racist religion: Not race) obtaining it now? What religion was behind the Salem witch hunts, the Spanish inquisition, the slaughter of native americans, and the black slave trade?

Remember, just because someone calls themselves a Christian, that doesn't make them one. George W Bush calls himself a Christian ... and it's pretty obvious that he's not a Christian ... he's a hypocrite and a liar.

Why do you say this? Because he didn't kill a witch, adulterer or homosexual as commanded?

It is also not fair to say that Christians aren't entitled to believe that those who do not repent of their sins and put their faith in Jesus Christ are not saved. This is part of our belief system, and is just as valid as any other. This of course does not mean we don't acknowledge other beliefs to exist, all it means is that we simply refuse to accept other religions as a valid form of faith when they go completely contrary to what the Bible teaches.

The belief *mind control* system was spread by force. It calls for the killing of idol worshippers.

As Christians we have come to a conclusion regarding life after death, and simply want to tell others about it so that they may become saved.

What kind of sick God relies on people like you (promoting racist / sexist hate literature) to save people for him?

Your belief system is disgusting and offensive.

seanx

23-08-2008, 01:18 PM

Seekingthetruth wrote:

As Christians we have come to a conclusion regarding life after death, and simply want to tell others about it so that they may become saved. Wouldn't you do the same thing if you were in our shoes?

Think of it this way ... If it was your belief that someone you know would perish if they didn't repent of their sins and put their trust in Jesus, would you not want to share the Gospel with them so they might be saved?

(That was a hypothetical question ... please don't respond telling me how the Bible isn't true, or whatever else)

Hope that clears some of that up ...

No, it doesn't clear anything.

TW has just written a great post saying everyone is entitled to
their beliefs, especially if it helps them and they they don't try to
FORCE these beliefs on others.

Excellent stuff.

No-one can diagree with that.

Unfortunately, as this will go for a lot of people on this forum, most
of us had your matrix christianity FORCED on us, through the control
your religion has on our educational system..

And because it is such an insidious and evil perversion of
the true nature of God, we have every right to challenge you
when you come on here to promote this fear-based program.

Again, I'll ask you the same question I asked each of the other christians
who promote this matrix brand of christianity.

But No one will answered.

I'm sorry for boring everybody else with this question, but let us
try it again:

Are you a father?

Have you EVER held a child in your hands?

NOW: Would you crucify one of your children if they disobeyed
you?

And What kind of being would do that?

And if you are already All-love ( as Christianity tells us God is), why
would God need to punish 'his children' to get them to love him?

Don't you see how ridiculous and contradictiorary that is?

Don't you see you're been sold an insidious con by people who
are consciously perverting the true nature of God, of BEING .

Being IS.

It is EVERYONE and EVERYTHING NOW.

It is totally present even in the tiniest atom. It is holographic.
All of it is present everywhere, ALL the time.

2,000 years ago and today.

So God does not NEED your love. Your obedience. He/she/it
already IS it NOW. In it's absolute TOTALITY.

So: Why would you crucify one of your children if they disobeyed
you?

Think of it this way ... If it was your belief that someone you know would perish if they didn't repent of their sins and put their trust in Jesus, would you not want to share the Gospel with them so they might be saved?

if you believe that fear mongering, yes, you have every right to preach it
and try to convert people.

No-one is denying you that right.

But we also have the right to stop you from putting the SICK Fear
of God into people, especially children ( during your Sunday classes)
that they are doomed to hell, agony, dmanation and the HORROR
of extinction ..unless they do what you tell them.

God'S nature is one of Infinite Awareness, Infinite Consciousness, and
as an aspect of that, everybody too is infinite consciousness.

Your 'form' may change.....but your consciousness remains to enjoy
the infinity of life in many 'forms'.

You cannot be destroyed, even if you sin.

That is the message we should be giving our children.

Not your fear-based sickness that they or their family will be
destroyed if they don't obey your belief sysyem.

The damage you people are doing to people, with this perverted
belief system is immense.

mcthompson2x

23-08-2008, 04:23 PM

You respect ritual infant genital mutilation, genocide, slavery, rape, etc?

Christians kill witches, homosexuals and adulterers, and they're nice?

Why are you putting words into my mouth?

Do you think that all Christians kill witches, homosexuals and adulterers?

Because I know that all of them do not.

As for respecting all belief systems, I meant that we should respect individuals' rights to believe whatever they want. Let me rephrase since apparently I can't make a statement without someone assuming I'm condoning murder: all people should be respected, all actions should not.

It is also not fair to say that Christians aren't entitled to believe that those who do not repent of their sins and put their faith in Jesus Christ are not saved. This is part of our belief system, and is just as valid as any other. This of course does not mean we don't acknowledge other beliefs to exist, all it means is that we simply refuse to accept other religions as a valid form of faith when they go completely contrary to what the Bible teaches. When you say it's intolerant for Christians to believe what we believe, that is simply hypocritical. If we say (according to our beliefs) that you are going to Hell if you don't repent of your sins and put your faith in Jesus Christ, then what does it matter if you don't even believe in what we say? If my belief is that I will spend eternity living in a giant watermelon ... then I am entitled to do so ... although that doesn't mean it is right.

Regarding this, let me turn it around and make this statement: In the same way that you think you are entitled to think that your belief system is the only correct one (in spite of plenty of evidence to the contrary), I am entitled to think you are incorrect and I'm entitled to make my statement of that nature. It is wrong of you to assume non-Christians are going to hell, even if you don't think so. All you do is reinforce a negative social trap that actually DOES damn some people to hell and keeps the matrix alive. Just my opinion, though - but I think when Christians assume righteousness, they are doing more harm than good.

madthumbs

23-08-2008, 07:41 PM

Why are you putting words into my mouth?

Do you think that all Christians kill witches, homosexuals and adulterers?

They are all complicit with conspiracy to commit murder.

As for respecting all belief systems, I meant that we should respect individuals' rights to believe whatever they want. Let me rephrase since apparently I can't make a statement without someone assuming I'm condoning murder: all people should be respected, all actions should not.

Charles Manson didn't kill, yet he sits in prison for supposedly ordering killings. Who did Hitler, or GW directly kill? Are they all to be respected?

Regarding this, let me turn it around and make this statement: In the same way that you think you are entitled to think that your belief system is the only correct one (in spite of plenty of evidence to the contrary)

You're talking about a "belief system" which is actually a faith system, and that system cannot then be correctly called correct because it can't be proven.

I am entitled to think you are incorrect and I'm entitled to make my statement of that nature.

Who entitled you?

biblegirl

23-08-2008, 09:56 PM

"World War III is to be fomented by using the so-called controversies, the agents of the Illuminati operating under whatever new name, as are now being stored up between the political Zionists and the leaders of the Moslem world. That war is to be directed in such a manner that all of Islam and political Zionism (Israel) will destroy each other while at the same time; the remaining nations once more divided on this issue will be forced to fight themselves into a state of complete exhaustion; physically, mentally, spiritually, and economically.
"Now can any thinking person doubt that the intrigue now going on in the near Middle and far East is designed to accomplish that satanic objective? Pike himself foretold all this in a statement he made to Mazzini on August 15, 1871. Pike stated that after World War III is ended; those who will aspire to undisputed world domination will provoke the greatest social cataclysm the world has ever known. Quoting his own words taken from the letter he wrote to Mazzini and which letter is now catalogued in the British Museum in London, England; he said:

"We shall unleash the nihilists and the atheists and we shall provoke a great social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to all nations the effect of absolute atheism; the origins of savagery and of most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the people will be forced to defend themselves against the world minority of the world revolutionaries and will exterminate those destroyers of civilization and the multitudes disillusioned with Christianity whose spirits will be from that moment without direction and leadership and anxious for an ideal, but without knowledge where to send its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer brought finally out into public view. A manifestation which will result from a general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and Atheism; both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
(this is an excerpt taken from "the Illuminati and the CFR" by Myron Fagon)

bendoon

23-08-2008, 11:49 PM

Again, I'll ask you the same question I asked each of the other christians
who promote this matrix brand of christianity.

But No one will answered.

NOW: Would you crucify one of your children if they disobeyed
you?

.

He didn't, the Romans/Jews did.

next question

mcthompson2x

24-08-2008, 01:59 AM

They are all complicit with conspiracy to commit murder.

Charles Manson didn't kill, yet he sits in prison for supposedly ordering killings. Who did Hitler, or GW directly kill? Are they all to be respected?

You're talking about a "belief system" which is actually a faith system, and that system cannot then be correctly called correct because it can't be proven.

Who entitled you?

I can't really say much, it seems you are rabidly anti-Christian. My personal perspective, sorry if this offends Christians, is that Christians are good people who have been taken advantage of. They are ignorant of the truth because they have never had an opportunity to find out what it is - to even fool around with any sort of esoteric knowledge is considered heretical. Most Christians are afraid of the truth, because they think the truth is another one of Lucifer's lies. They've been backed into a corner. You aren't going to help anyone come to the right conclusions when you tell them they are complicit with murder when in reality they have lived their lives helping their communities and loving their friends and family members. All Americans are complicit murderers by mere association - if you drive a car a mile you're killing something. If you buy food from a store, something died in the creation of that food. The point is that we need to bring down the system. Now in spite of the way that Lucifer/the Elitists have perverted the teachings of the Christ avatar, and in spite of the fact that Christianity is a purposely regressive/submissive religion, you have to realize that it was created to be an intellectual and psychological trap for otherwise innocent people to become enslaved in. Believe it or not, Christians do have the same common goals as most other awakened people. They just need to understand why their religion is antithetical to that goal, and most of them can't wrap their heads around it because a lot of mental blocks have been put in place to prevent any outside of the box thinking.

Think whatever you want, and you are entirely right about the bloodthirst of Christianity, however most Christians are unaware. They have a moral responsibility to understand what the belief system that they support creates, but you have to teach through love, not self-righteous moral indignation. Assuming that you are better than Christians is quite literally going to get you nowhere. No one wants to listen to someone who stands on a pedestal and proclaims moral superiority.

bgrade_actor

24-08-2008, 03:27 AM

Recommended videos exposing Christian Church by Bible prophecies!

Hey those videos support my position??!!!:D:D Why did you put them up here??:confused::confused: But hey thanks anyway! The reformers were calling the pope the antichrist 500 years ago! The reformers follow the bible, the catholic church doesn’t. If you want some real conspiracy theory go here. I don’t agree with it 100% but hey it’s interesting.

http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0114/0114_allinone.asp

http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0112/0112_allinone.asp

has been proven to come from the Old Testament word "Mazzaroth" (Book of Job), which means Zodiac, and was not in existence as a town or city during recorded bible time

evidence please. Who said what when?

Also, Capernaum is a river, not a city.

A brief look on the net and a perusal of a book would suggest not but again show me evidence. Wikipedia (hardly what I call reliable!) has photos of the ruins so there’s obviously something there!

And because it is such an insidious and evil perversion of the true nature of God

Says who? Where

Your 'form' may change.....but your consciousness remains to enjoy
the infinity of life in many 'forms'. You cannot be destroyed, even if you sin.

Says who? Why? How?

And because it is such an insidious and evil perversion of the true nature of God, we have every right to challenge you when you come on here to promote this fear-based program.

Yes I 100% agree. But you have to challenge with evidence. To just start promoting your own bias is really hypocritical. So again show me the evidence that challenges what I say.

is so arrogant to assume that you are correct when there is so much evidence to the contrary

You are correct to say it is arrogant. It probably is. However there is the issue of what the bible says. If the bible is the word of God, and if the bible is correct then you can’t really go and embrace other religions. And besides all that most other religions aren’t going to embrace Christianity! Christians should hold to what they believe is to be correct and point the way to what they believe is the truth. What you do with that information is up to you really.

For those claiming that the early church conspired to set up a control mechanism, is not a new idea. However I fail to understand what your evidence is given that the early church got a hammering. Think about for a second.

The leader Jesus comes on the scene creates a hysteria. This upsets the local Jewish leaders. The Romans don’t like trouble in the occupied territories and start to clamp down. Eventually they get rid of Jesus. However the followers claim that he has risen from the dead and start going around telling all. The Jewish leaders try to stop the uprising but fail. The disciples of Jesus do not let up even in the face of death. They go out of their way to spread their belief and share it with the known world. Saul who starts out by killing Christians ends up leaving the comforts of Jewish priesthood to go and become a Christian and spend his life travelling sharing the faith. He ends up in jail gets a lot of people upset and generally makes life difficult for himself.

So to say that the Christian church is set up to control mechanism is ridiculous as those who wrote the bible got nothing out of it! They weren't exactly ruling the world were they!

And again if the bible is a control mechanism God is a lousy God really. The Jews get their land taken off them. The temple gets wiped out, they lose the Ten Commandments and the ark of the covenant, his so called son gets killed, the followers get persecuted, the followers in Rome get thrown to the Lions, those in the middle ages get persecuted and killed by the Catholics. To suggest that it is a control mechanism is ridiculous as those who practice it have no success!! Why would you write a control mechanism outlining what a tremendous failure you are??!! It is illogical.

If however you were to say the Catholic Church was a control mechanism then you might be on to something!! Remember though the Catholic Church uses non biblical laws to run its religion. Big difference to what the bible has to say! But that’s another debate for another day.

So once again please post documentation supporting your views. Just saying there is a worldwide Christian conspiracy doesn’t hold weight. Because if the bible is true and if the bible is the word of God, I would really hate to see you guys go to hell just because you failed to at least analyze the evidence.

I don’t mind that you guys don’t agree with me and you have every right to think that Christianity is rubbish. My whole point of this thread is that you guys are not basing your beliefs on any facts. Again and again I ask for evidence to support your belief system or to criticise the bible, and you cannot produce it. Googling something doesn’t really do much either. I can Google anything. There are plenty of Christian websites supporting what I say too. So again post up evidence here. If it so blatantly obvious to most casual observer that Christianity is just made up hogwash then put it up here. Let’s look at what it has to say.

seanx

24-08-2008, 03:27 AM

bendoon wrote:

He didn't, the Romans/Jews did.

next question

Well, thank you for that!

What an answer!!

IF ever you wanted to see how sick and brainwashed some
Christians are, read THAT POST.

It would make you ill.

I'm addressing this response to all these Matrix Christians
who are on the attack here. They know who they are.

But......this is not intended for genuine Christian posters like Amethyst
whose true spirit of openess and enquiry is truely welcome here.

This answer is for the 'shits' like this man, Bendoon who insult us with
their answers.

They say: It's the Romans/Jews who killed him!

And then...... they will tell us ( with their fake christianity) that
God is omnipresent and omniscient.

But sadly no-one has told these sick matrix Christians what this
means.

Let me repeat it: God is omnipresent and omniscient...
and yet they tell us the Romans/Jews did it.

I have to be careful as I can't be too rude on this vital issue - otherwise
Limelady, whom I used to have great respect for ( read her excellent
posts) will relgate and hide this post in the rant room if the argument
seems like coming to a heated conclusion.

But for all the posters here who had to endure years of Catholic and
Christain brainwashing', they will know what I mean.

bendoon

24-08-2008, 03:39 AM

bendoon wrote:

This answer is for the 'shits' like this man, Bendoon who insult us with
their answers.
.

You asked a dumb question, and got an answer you didn't like so you resort to insults, true to your character. Assuming that all people you refer to as Christians are the same is like assuming that all people who eat Heinz Baked Beans are the same. In fact most of the people you refer to as Christian are Anti Christian just like yourself. Try being a little bit less agressive.

You are full of negative energy and it oozes from the page.

seanx

24-08-2008, 03:47 AM

bgrade_actor wrote:

Quote:
And because it is such an insidious and evil perversion of the true nature of God

Says who? Where

Quote:
Your 'form' may change.....but your consciousness remains to enjoy
the infinity of life in many 'forms'. You cannot be destroyed, even if you sin.

Says who? Why? How?

Quote:
And because it is such an insidious and evil perversion of the true nature of God, we have every right to challenge you when you come on here to promote this fear-based program.

Yes I 100% agree. But you have to challenge with evidence. To just start promoting your own bias is really hypocritical. So again show me the evidence that challenges what I say.

Quote:
is so arrogant to assume that you are correct when there is so much evidence to the contrary

You are correct to say it is arrogant. It probably is. However there is the issue of what the bible says. If the bible is the word of God, and if the bible is correct then you can’t really go and embrace other religions. And besides all that most other religions aren’t going to embrace Christianity! Christians should hold to what they believe is to be correct and point the way to what they believe is the truth. What you do with that information is up to you really.

For those claiming that the early church conspired to set up a control mechanism, is not a new idea. However I fail to understand what your evidence is given that the early church got a hammering. Think about for a second.

The leader Jesus comes on the scene creates a hysteria. This upsets the local Jewish leaders. The Romans don’t like trouble in the occupied territories and start to clamp down. Eventually they get rid of Jesus. However the followers claim that he has risen from the dead and start going around telling all. The Jewish leaders try to stop the uprising but fail. The disciples of Jesus do not let up even in the face of death. They go out of their way to spread their belief and share it with the known world. Saul who starts out by killing Christians ends up leaving the comforts of Jewish priesthood to go and become a Christian and spend his life travelling sharing the faith. He ends up in jail gets a lot of people upset and generally makes life difficult for himself.

So to say that the Christian church is set up to control mechanism is ridiculous as those who wrote the bible got nothing out of it! They were exactly ruling the world were they!

And again if the bible is a control mechanism God is a lousy God really. The Jews get their land taken off them. The temple gets wiped out, they lose the Ten Commandments and the ark of the covenant, his so called son gets killed, the followers get persecuted, the followers in Rome get thrown to the Lions, those in the middle ages get persecuted and killed by the Catholics. To suggest that it is a control mechanism is ridiculous as those who practice it have no success!! Why would you write a control mechanism outlining what a tremendous failure you are??!! It is illogical.

If however you were to say the Catholic Church was a control mechanism then you might be on to something!! Remember though the Catholic Church uses non biblical laws to run its religion. Big difference to what the bible has to say! But that’s another debate for another day.

So once again please post documentation supporting your views. Just saying there is a worldwide Christian conspiracy doesn’t hold weight. Because if the bible is true and if the bible is the word of God, I would really hate to see you guys go to hell just because you failed to at least analyze the evidence.

I don’t mind that you guys don’t agree with me and you have every right to think that Christianity is rubbish. My whole point of this thread is that you guys are not basing your beliefs on any facts. Again and again I ask for evidence to support your belief system or to criticise the bible, and you cannot produce it. Googling something doesn’t really do much either. I can Google anything. There are plenty of Christian websites supporting what I say too. So again post up evidence here. If it so blatantly obvious to most casual observer that Christianity is just made up hogwash then put it up here. Let’s look at what it has to say.

About 10 year ago, I was given the opportunity by the one of Irelands
leading psychologistS to study the brainwashing techniques of the
matrix christians - people like bgrade_actor and his mates who have
decided to visit this forum to 'convert us'.

Unfortunately, I couldn't at the time.

I regret this ....but I know he will be looking down now at their
answers they are giving us ....and smiling.

Smiling with happiness that their answers are so stupid and more
and more people will see through them, but also sadness that people in
this new centurary still believe this nonsense.

But again, and apolgizes to all dave icke readers of this forum, but I
have to ask them this Question again as none of them will answer me:

So here it is again:

Are you a father?

Have you EVER held a child in your hands?

Would you crucify one of your children if they disobeyed
you?

Can't you see how sick this idealogy you have been brain-fed.

If God IS an Infinite, All-loving, All-knowing Presence infinitely present
everywhere -why would such a Presence which is ALREADY ALL
LOVE and ALL beings NEED to destroy and crucify one of them so
that the rest ( which is himself) will obey him?

Do you see how you matrix christans and ALL THE rest of the
mainstram religions PERVERT the ture nature of Infinite Being
with these Elite man-made religions.

So what kind of 'God' is this??

awakensong

24-08-2008, 03:55 AM

The story of the whale swallowing Jonah, though a whale is large enough to do it, borders greatly on the marvelous; but it would have approached nearer to the idea of a miracle if Jonah had swallowed the whale. Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid or produces only atheists or fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of despotism, and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests, but so far as respects the good of man in general it leads to nothing here or hereafter. Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

Toleration is not the opposite of intoleration, but it is the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms. The one assumes to itself the right of withholding liberty of conscience, and the other of granting it. The one is the pope, armed with fire and fagot, and the other is the pope selling or granting indulgences. Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man

...Thomas did not believe the resurrection [John 20:25], and, as they say, would not believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So neither will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every other person, as for Thomas. Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistant that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel. Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

There are matters in the Bible, said to be done by the express commandment of God, that are shocking to humanity and to every idea we have of moral justice..... Thomas Paine

Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication-- after that it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it can not be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner; for it was not a revelation made to ME, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him. Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

When I see throughout this book, called the Bible, a history of the grossest vices and a collection of the most paltry and contemptible tales and stories, I could not so dishonor my Creator by calling it by His name. Thomas Paine, in Toward The Mystery

Whence arose all the horrid assassinations of whole nations of men, women, and infants, with which the Bible is filled; and the bloody persecutions, and tortures unto death, and religiosu wars, that since that time have laid Europe in blood and ashes; whence arose they, but from this impious thing called religion, and this monstrous belief that God has spoken to man? Thomas Paine, quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief, Famous People with the Courage to Doubt (http://clicks.about.com/163/borders.asp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgo%2Eborders%2Ecom%2F fcgi%2Dbin%2Fpart%3FPID%3D124002928%26PAGE%3Dhttp% 253A%252F%252Fsearch%252Eborders%252Ecom%252Ffcgi% 252Dbin%252Fdb2www%252Fsearch%252Fsearch%252Ed2w%2 52FDetails%253F%2526mediaType%253DBook%2526prodID% 253D4390144) by James Haught

The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system. Thomas Paine, quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief, Famous People with the Courage to Doubt (http://clicks.about.com/163/borders.asp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgo%2Eborders%2Ecom%2F fcgi%2Dbin%2Fpart%3FPID%3D124002928%26PAGE%3Dhttp% 253A%252F%252Fsearch%252Eborders%252Ecom%252Ffcgi% 252Dbin%252Fdb2www%252Fsearch%252Fsearch%252Ed2w%2 52FDetails%253F%2526mediaType%253DBook%2526prodID% 253D4390144) by James Haught

"Even if Jesus had been on Earth, he would not even have been a priest". Hebrews 8:4

"When we say that Jesus Christ was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing new or different from what you believe regarding those whom you call the sons of Jupiter." -- Justin Martyr, church father

bendoon

24-08-2008, 03:55 AM

So here it is again:

??

You have been answered, you just did not like the answer.

About 10 year ago, I was given the opportunity by the one of Irelands
leading psychologistS to study the brainwashing techniques

Since you are fond of asking questions, how do you know this psychologist was not trying to brainwash you ?

Maybe you should read a book called the "Soviet art of brainwashing" (using trained psychological operatives)

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7006/psychopolitics.html

PSYCHOPOLITICS - the art and
science of asserting and maintain-
ing dominion over the thoughts and
loyalties of individuals, officers,
bureaus, and masses, and the ef-
fecting of the conquest of enemy
nations through "mental healing."

seanx

24-08-2008, 03:58 AM

bendoon wrote:

You asked a dumb question, and got an answer you didn't like so you resort to insults, true to your character. Assuming that all people you refer to as Christians are the same is like assuming that all people who eat Heinz Baked Beans are the same. In fact most of the people you refer to as Christian are Anti Christian just like yourself. Try being a little bit less agressive.

You are full of negative energy and it oozes from the page.

No, mate I see the damage sick bastards like you do in your
'Sunday schools' when you preach this fear-ridden garbage.

When you tell people, they will be 'destroyed', 'damed' if they don't
believe your crap.

This crap doesn't affect adults because they see through wasters
like you, but the people you do affect are little kids who don't
know better.

I know this...because I was once one of these kids.

So instead of your shit, why can't you tell them that they are eternal
beings and even if they do sin ( make a mistake) they will still be loved
and enjoy the infinity of life.

Instead you people scare them to death with yuor threats of
eternal destruction and damnation.

In this day and age, shame on you.

seanx

24-08-2008, 04:07 AM

awakensong wrote;

do it, borders greatly on the marvelous; but it would have approached nearer to the idea of a miracle if Jonah had swallowed the whale. Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid or produces only atheists or fanatics. As an engine of power, it serves the purpose of despotism, and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests, but so far as respects the good of man in general it leads to nothing here or hereafter. Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

Toleration is not the opposite of intoleration, but it is the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms. The one assumes to itself the right of withholding liberty of conscience, and the other of granting it. The one is the pope, armed with fire and fagot, and the other is the pope selling or granting indulgences. Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man

...Thomas did not believe the resurrection [John 20:25], and, as they say, would not believe without having ocular and manual demonstration himself. So neither will I, and the reason is equally as good for me, and for every other person, as for Thomas. Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistant that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel. Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

There are matters in the Bible, said to be done by the express commandment of God, that are shocking to humanity and to every idea we have of moral justice..... Thomas Paine

Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication-- after that it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it can not be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner; for it was not a revelation made to ME, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him. Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

When I see throughout this book, called the Bible, a history of the grossest vices and a collection of the most paltry and contemptible tales and stories, I could not so dishonor my Creator by calling it by His name. Thomas Paine, in Toward The Mystery

Whence arose all the horrid assassinations of whole nations of men, women, and infants, with which the Bible is filled; and the bloody persecutions, and tortures unto death, and religiosu wars, that since that time have laid Europe in blood and ashes; whence arose they, but from this impious thing called religion, and this monstrous belief that God has spoken to man? Thomas Paine, quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief, Famous People with the Courage to Doubt by James Haught

The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system. Thomas Paine, quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief, Famous People with the Courage to Doubt by James Haught

"Even if Jesus had been on Earth, he would not even have been a priest". Hebrews 8:4

"When we say that Jesus Christ was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing new or different from what you believe regarding those whom you call the sons of Jupiter." -- Justin Martyr, church #

Great post ..

bendoon

24-08-2008, 04:08 AM

So instead of your shit, why can't you tell them that they are eternal
beings and even if they do sin ( make a mistake) they will still be loved
and enjoy the infinity of life..

I do, only difference being that they cannot continue forever in their path if their existence is a danger to millions, billions or even the entire Earth. Do you really think they will be allowed to start a nuclear war ? The only difference between you and me is that you apparently think they will be given a pat on the back and "never mind, try not to do it again"

In this day and age, shame on you.

I hate to repeat myself but not all people who eat Big Macs are the same, neither are all people who claim to be Christian. So shame on you for insinuating they are.

(this tit for tat insult is rather childish)

seanx

24-08-2008, 04:11 AM

To bendoon

Answer the Question: Don't run from it:

Are you a father?

Have you EVER held a child in your hands?

Would you crucify one of your children if they disobeyed
you?

If God IS an Infinite, All-loving, All-knowing Presence infinitely
present everywhere -why would such a Presence which is ALREADY ALL
LOVE and ALL beings NEED to destroy and crucify one of them so
that the rest ( which is himself) will obey him?

Do you see how you matrix christans and ALL THE rest of the
mainstram religions PERVERT the ture nature of Infinite Being
with these Elite man-made religions.

But you probably don't....

bendoon

24-08-2008, 04:15 AM

seanx

24-08-2008, 04:19 AM

Answer the Question.

Don't run away.

You're not in front of a group of kids now, in Sunday
school that you can frighten into believing your
fairytale.

amethyst

24-08-2008, 04:48 AM

So instead of your shit, why can't you tell them that they are eternal
beings and even if they do sin ( make a mistake) they will still be loved
and enjoy the infinity of life.

Seanx,

I don't know what you've been told before by some "men of the cloth", but I want to tell you that you are loved unconditionally by God, whether you believe that or you do not.

I want to tell you that you are an eternal being, and even if you sin, you will still be loved by God.

That is why God came to earth, in the form of a flesh man Jesus the Christ, the Messiah, and that is why he died in man's place. It was for mankind that He died.

You asked why would God make His own Son die a terrible death?

because the toll of sin has a very high price. Because of sin, we have death, we die. It started way back in the garden when it entered into mankind.

Sin caused separation between God and man, whereas before, there was no separation between God and man. But when sin entered in, man began to die.

But God did not want that for man, who was created in His image and His likeness. He wanted man to live eternally, forever and ever. But sin stopped this for man.

So God, because he loved mankind so much, had to send His only Son to die in man's place, for mankind's sin.

It was the ultimate sacrifice that God did, allowing His Son, who was God in the flesh when He walked on the earth, to die.

It was the ultimate act of love that Jesus, who was without any sin, would voluntarily offer up Himself, so that man would be reconciled back to the Father.

It was an act of extreme love for every single individual on the face of the earth, whether they choose to believe it or not.

Because God wants all men to be where He is, ruling and reigning with Him.

Jesus was ressurected after he died and is alive now forever. He tasted death so that we would have life.

It's not about listening to some fallible man tell you what to do and not to do. It it about having a personal relationship with God who created all things and that includes each and every man/woman. And listening to Him with your spirit. He is the one who knows you better than you know yourself.

Not a fallible man, who may or may not care about you. God cares about you. He is worth listening to.

As the scripture you might be familiar with says,

""For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

awakensong

24-08-2008, 04:55 AM

Paul wrote lots of letters about Christianity; in fact, he wrote 80,000 words about the Christian religion. These documents represent almost all we have about the history of Christianity during this decades-long silence since the birth and death of Jesus and the first writings. And here's the interesting thing: if Jesus was a human who had recently lived, nobody told Paul.

Paul never heard of Mary, Joseph, Bethlehem, Herod, John the Baptist. He never heard about any of these miracles.

He never quotes anything that Jesus is supposed to have said. He never mentions Jesus as having had a ministry of any kind at all.

He never knows about any entrance into Jerusalem, he never mentions Pontius Pilate or a Jewish mob, or any trials at all.

Paul doesn't know any of what we would call the story of Jesus, except for 3 specific events - Christ being put on the cross, his resurrection, and his ascension - and even these, Paul never places on Earth.

Just like the other Savior Gods of the time, Paul's Christ Jesus died, rose and ascended all in a mythical realm.

"Even if Jesus had been on Earth, he would not even have been a priest". Hebrews 8:4

"Paul didn't believe that Jesus was ever a human being; he's not even aware of the idea, and he's the link between the timeframe given for the life of Jesus and the appearance of the first gospel account of that life (at least 4 decades, and up to 7 decades after Jesus is said to have lived). This is why you don't hear Christian leaders talking about the early days of Christianity, because once you assemble the facts, the story is that Jesus lived from circa 4 BC to 26 AD --- then from 26 AD to 70 AD, EVERYONE FORGOT --- then from 70 - 100 AD, everyone remembered and wrote the 4 gospels.... but it gets even shakier than that.

Allegorical literature was extremely common back then...

"Mark himself probably didn't believe he was writing history; he was writing a symbolic message; he was writing a gospel, "the good news" and symbolizing it using biblical parallels, using parallels from pagan religion and so forth". -- Richard Carter, Historian

"There are parallels - there are these other gospels, there are the apochrypha. There were stories which frankly just got thrown out because people thought they could never have happened, were just too fantastic, even though some of the apochryphal stories are as interesting as what's in the bible. There have been attempts, mostly by Jesuits and other intellectuals, to de-mythologize, who were upset by the "folklore" and said they had to make it more intellectual and get rid of the folklore. "Let's get rid of the virgin birth - it's too unlikely" -- but when you take away the folklore from the bible, you don't have a heck of a lot left except "begat, begat, begat, begat" -- Alan Dundes, Professor of Folklore, UC Berkley - Author "Holy Write as Oral Lit"

"In the case of someone like Caesar Augustus, around whom many of the same myths clustered, we know there nonetheless was a Caesar Augustus, because he's intricately tied into the history of the time. Secular historians talk about him; you can't rewrite history without Caesar Augustus. But at the very key points where Jesus 'appears' to be alive in history, there are still mythical references such as the slaughtering of infants in the Book of Exodus. Or, they contain outrageous probabilities, such as the Jewish Supreme Council meeting on Passover Eve! to get rid of this man! It's just out of the question. Or, Pontius Pilate letting go a known killer and just letting Jesus be thrown to the mob, after trying to get him off the hook as if he hadn't asked to have a vote on it, it just defies any kind of historical verisimilitude. And then when you realize there were others Jews and ancient Jewish Christians who believed Jesus had been killed a century before, under King Alexander Janius. Or, in the gospel of Peter, it says Herod had Jesus killed. How could this be a matter of such diversity if it was such a recent event that people remembered? It just begins to make you wonder, "Is this man really part of the historical time stream, or does it look like it's trying to put a figure, originally mythical, into a historical framework and make various stabs at it"? -- Robert M. Price, Fellow, The Jesus Seminar - Author, "The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man"

"When we say that Jesus Christ was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing new or different from what you believe regarding those whom you call the sons of Jupiter." -- Justin Martyr, church father

Attribures of Previous Saviors:

Born of a Virgin
Stars Appeared at Their Births
Visited by Magi from the East
Turned Water Into Wine
Healed the Sick
Cast Out Demons
Performed Miracles
Transfigured Before Their Followers
Rode Donkeys into the City
Betrayed for Thirty Pieces of Silver
Celebrated Communal Meal with Bread and Wine
Which Represented the Saviour's Flesh and Blood
Killed on a Cross or Tree
Descended Into Hell
Resurrected on the Third Day
Ascended Into Heaven to Forever Sit Beside Father God And Become Divine Judge
Applied to:
Adonis
Attis
Baal
Bacchus
Balder
Bedru
Devatat
Dionysus
Hermes
Horus
Krishna
Mithras
Orpheus
Osiris
Tammuz
Thor
Zoroaster

"The early church fathers knew this was a problem because they were already getting objections from the pagans. They would say, "What you say about Jesus, we've been saying about Dionysus and Hercules all along. What's the deal?" And they didn't believe in them either anymore. So the Christian apologists, the defenders of the faith, would say, "But this one is true. You see, Satan counterfeited in advance because he knew this day would come". Boy, that tells you two things right there - that even they didn't deny that these other Jesus-like characters were before Jesus, or they never would have resorted to something like that." Robert M. Price

Add to all of this the malicious nature of the Bible - you know: Slavery, Brutalities, Abuse of Women, and you are convinced that there is no such God.

Excerpts transcribed from a YouTube Presentation:
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

2400 B.C. = First Celebration of Easter
The earliest reference we have to a similar holiday comes to us from Babylon, 2400 BCE. The city of Ur apparently had a celebration dedicated to the moon and the spring equinox which was held some time during our months of March or April. On the spring equinox Zoroastrians continue to celebrate “No Ruz,” the new day or New Year. This date is commemorated by the last remaining Zoroastrians and probably constitutes the oldest celebration in the history of the world.

It is believed that the Jews derived their spring equinox celebrations, the Feast of Weeks and Passover, in part from this Babylonian holiday during the period when so many Jews were held captive by the Babylonian empire. It is likely that the Babylonians were the first, or at least among the first, civilizations to use the equinoxes as important turning points in the year. Today Passover is a central feature of Judaism and Jewish faith in God. (about.com)

bgrade_actor

24-08-2008, 05:03 AM

If we are going to quote the bible let’s quote the whole verse and give it fair hearing. The WHOLE quote from Hebrews actually discredits what you are saying.

Heb 8:1 The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, Heb 8:2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man. Heb 8:3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. Heb 8:4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. Heb 8:5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” Heb 8:6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
Heb 8:8 But God found fault with the people and said :
“The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
Heb 8:9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.

because once you assemble the facts, the story is that Jesus lived from circa 4 BC to 26 AD --- then from 26 AD to 70 AD, EVERYONE FORGOT

Everyone forgets as long as you don't read the book of Acts. It only outlines what happened in some of that time frame that you are supposing it all went quiet! The disciples headed off overseas to share what they had seen. For example in 48 AD they went off to Cyprus. They dealt with a guy called bar-jesus. So that's right in the time frame where it is all supposedly quiet!

awakensong

24-08-2008, 05:29 AM

If we are going to quote the bible let’s quote the whole verse and give it fair hearing. The WHOLE quote from Hebrews actually discredits what you are saying.

Heb 8:1 The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,

It must be understood that this is Astro-Theology. It all happens "in the heavens", not on earth.

Heb 8:2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.

See, what I mean? "NOT SET UP BY MAN". Not on earth.

Heb 8:3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.

Right, just as the priests on earth offer something, so should the "high priest" in heaven do so. Please understand the priests on earth were priests to the Sun God Yahweh, whether they realized it or not. It's all a Matrix system to disempower us and render us senseless and reasonless.

Heb 8:4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. Heb 8:5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” Heb 8:6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
Heb 8:8 But God found fault with the people and said :
“The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
Heb 8:9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
If you understand that the entire bible - originally titled "Helios Biblos" meaning Book of the Sun, was about the Sun as God, you would start to get it.

Everyone forgets as long as you don't read the book of Acts. It only outlines what happened in some of that time frame that you are supposing it all went quiet! The disciples headed off overseas to share what they had seen.
And many years after their supposed martrydoms, voila, here it all is in writing. It was co-opted from the ancient Babylonians who understood what they were writing about. It is an allegory.

Please don't tell me it's a matter of reading more of the same stuff.

Malachi 4:2
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Why are nearly ALL Christian symbols about the Sun? Give me some time and I will post plenty of examples.

bgrade_actor

24-08-2008, 05:30 AM

So the Christian apologists, the defenders of the faith, would say, "But this one is true. You see, Satan counterfeited in advance because he knew this day would come". Boy, that tells you two things right there - that even they didn't deny that these other Jesus-like characters were before Jesus, or they never would have resorted to something like that

So your argument is that the disciples of Jesus went and knowingly died for a belief system that they invented and KNEW TO BE WRONG and they all went and refused to to recant and stood up for that in the face of death?

Do you really think that people would die for a cause they know to be totally incorrect. Remember these guys started chirstianity they would have known if it was real or not and they were persecuted for it.

awakensong

24-08-2008, 05:35 AM

So your argument is that the disciples of Jesus went and knowingly died for a belief system that they invented and KNEW TO BE WRONG and they all went and refused to to recant and stood up for that in the face of death?

Do you really think that people would die for a cause they know to be totally incorrect. Remember these guys started chirstianity they would have known if it was real or not and they were persecuted for it.

My argument, as has been talked about earlier, is that they never existed in the first place. The 12 Apostles are the 12 Houses/ Signs/ Mansions of the Zodiac/ Mazzaroth in Book of Job.

There is no historical evidence of such, no evidence of any apostles, disciples or martyrdoms, nor of an Exodus from Egypt, and possibly not even for Xtians having been thrown to the lions in Rome. It is a fable, an allegory of Astro-Theology.

"They" didn't start Xtianity. The church fathers did that about 300 years after the supposed events.

I didn't include this in the transcription, but it also says in that YouTube video that Peter said Herod killed Jesus, and that many of the Jews believed Jesus had died 100 years prior. This could have been the Teacher of Righteousness of whom the Gnostics speak, and still have been "in the heavens" - Astro-Theology.

There are way too many disparities to give these characters and events any credibility in a book that is supposed to be infallible and written by a God.

bgrade_actor

24-08-2008, 05:43 AM

Paul never heard of Mary, Joseph, Bethlehem, Herod, John the Baptist. He never heard about any of these miracles.

He never quotes anything that Jesus is supposed to have said. He never mentions Jesus as having had a ministry of any kind at all.

He never knows about any entrance into Jerusalem, he never mentions Pontius Pilate or a Jewish mob, or any trials at all.

Paul doesn't know any of what we would call the story of Jesus, except for 3 specific events - Christ being put on the cross, his resurrection, and his ascension - and even these, Paul never places on Earth.

Just like the other Savior Gods of the time, Paul's Christ Jesus died, rose and ascended all in a mythical realm.

If so then why would he do this??

Ac 18:28 For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Your statement and that simple quote are at odds with each other. To argue that Jesus was the christ would mean acknowledging all that you claim he didn't.

bgrade_actor

24-08-2008, 05:49 AM

There is no historical evidence of such, no evidence of any apostles, disciples or martyrdoms, nor of an Exodus from Egypt, and possibly not even for Xtians having been thrown to the lions in Rome. It is a fable, an allegory of Astro-Theology.

Well I can't argue with that. If you think that the entire known world's history from both sides of the fence is made up then good luck to you! That's a pretty amazing claim and alot of academics have wasted alot of time.

awakensong

24-08-2008, 08:07 AM

This for now - I'll post the sun symbols that many of the Christian ministries, churches and artists use soon:

Sun of God? - YouTube

awakensong

24-08-2008, 10:17 AM

If so then why would he do this??
Why would who do what? Please be specific.

Ac 18:28 For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ. Your statement and that simple quote are at odds with each other. To argue that Jesus was the christ would mean acknowledging all that you claim he didn't.
Again, it is Solar Myth. Since I have awakened to this, there is only one way to see it, and that is that he showed them how Jesus is the Sun God. Who knows who put what into these scriptures, since they were written at least several decades after the supposed events happened. They are dozens of removes from any possible original language and have undergone multiple re-writings and re-wordings. I don't even find it possible for this to be part of an intelligent conversation.

To tell you the truth, there is no historical evidence for Paul to have existed, either. In fact, there is more historical evidence that Hercules existed than that there was a Jesus of the bible who did so.

Well I can't argue with that. If you think that the entire known world's history from both sides of the fence is made up then good luck to you! That's a pretty amazing claim and alot of academics have wasted alot of time.
I don't appreciate you putting words into my mouth. I never said that. I listed a few things that have no historical evidence. We know that Julius Caesar existed, and that after his death he was proclaimed a God. The bible characters, including the gospel writers, are named after solar myths, that is something with much documentation. I hope you will watch the video I sent earlier. If not, then there is no more to say. I have been where you are now. I spent the sum total of 40 years in both Catholicism and Protestantism and had ministries within the church. I know what the bible says and I don't believe it any more. If you will take the time to look at something that you haven't before, then we can continue; otherwise not. It is you who has come to this forum that is openly and unabashedly non-religious to try and disuade me from my chosen path, something I have put much thought and reason into. It is not I who has gone to your forums to try and disuade you from believing what you do, nor would I EVER because I don't believe in doing so. I call that being a "handler".

seekingthetruth

24-08-2008, 11:51 AM

Are you a father?

Have you EVER held a child in your hands?

NOW: Would you crucify one of your children if they disobeyed
you?

And What kind of being would do that?

And if you are already All-love ( as Christianity tells us God is), why
would God need to punish 'his children' to get them to love him?

Don't you see how ridiculous and contradictiorary that is?

No, it's not a ridiculous contradiction ... it's not a contradiction at all ...

Allow me to explain why you are not debating this issue with a Biblical understanding of Christianity.

The Bible makes it clear that God will NEVER punish his children. That being said, you are making the assumption that all the people of the world are Gods children ... when in fact the Bible says that those who have not repented of their sins and put their trust in Jesus are actually children of the Devil. (As each Christian was before they Repented of their sins and put their trust in Jesus)

The whole point of Jesus coming to the earth was to take on the Punishment for our sins on himself (God in person) so that we might be set free on the day of judgment. You may see the concept of Christianity as a fear based religion, and I suppose you're right in saying that. When you consider the fact that even our own human court system has penalties set aside for those who have committed crimes against humanity, would it not stand to reason that we must also be punished for the crimes we have committed against the holy and just God who created us?

God is so kind that He has created a way for our sins to be forgiven, even when we have done nothing to deserve forgiveness ... and your saying he's not a loving God? WE were the ones who broke his laws, and GOD was the one who paid the penalty for our sins in order that we are set free from the bondage of sin.

Is that not a loving thing to do?

if you believe that fear mongering, yes, you have every right to preach it
and try to convert people.

No-one is denying you that right.

But we also have the right to stop you from putting the SICK Fear
of God into people, especially children ( during your Sunday classes)
that they are doomed to hell, agony, dmanation and the HORROR
of extinction ..unless they do what you tell them.

Umm ... slight contradiction there fella ...

You're telling me that I have every right to preach what I believe to others, while at the same time tell me that you and others must stop me from preaching the aspects of my faith? So ... I can preach to others as much as I want ... as long as it has nothing to do with the teachings of the Bible?

It seems like you feel that you should be the one who controls what others are allowed to say ... ?? ... :confused:

bgrade_actor

24-08-2008, 12:12 PM

In regard to the videos not quite sure the ones you mean. I saw both of the Seventh Day Adventist videos on Page 17, however they supported my position. They are only saying what the reformers said 500 years ago! Thought that was kinda bizarre actually that they were posted trying to attack my position when it actually supports the protestant theology. However if you refer to another video please direct me there. Happy to have a look.

You won't go very far arguing that decades is a long time for writing. As I showed earlier it is the Bible first and daylight second in terms of the number of available texts and the closeness to events. The Oddessy was distant second. If you want to be consistent then I would suggest that all the documentation that supports your position would also have to be discounted too as it wouldn't meet the criteria of being written within say 5 years of the events happening.

I will have a look into Paul. I think you will find that there will be Greek and Roman writings about his missionary journeys.

Why would who do what? Please be specific.

My point was that if Paul thought Jesus was the Sun God why would he go and argue with the Jews that Jesus was the Christ then?

Further more if Jesus is the Sun God then how does that work in with the Old Testament prophecy?

Further again if you argue that the bible is not valid for historical reason (ie the writings of the apostles are to distant form events) how on earth are any of the Babylonian or Egyptian writings valid under the same criteria?

We know that Julius Caesar existed,

Yes this old chessnut!! :D You know Julius Caesar existed yet Paul, Jesus and the disciples didn't.

If you are consistent with your standard for documentation, then if you claim Caesar existed you have to then look at the bible. You can't say that biblical documentation is invalid but all this other stuff isn't. The bible has very strong credentials in terms of the validity of the documents. You can discredit of course, however if you were consistant you would also discredit alot of other history too.

Finally I'm not here to convert only to inform. I came here from a google search on the movie the bank job of all things, only to find alot of incorrect information being passed off as fact. Anyway you have every right to bag the bible and I have every right to defend it.

seekingthetruth

24-08-2008, 12:19 PM

I know this...because I was once one of these kids.

Actually you appear to be the product of a former false conversion ...

That is not the same as 'Once being a Christian' ... it seems clear that you have never clearly understood the concept of Christianity ... and please try to keep down the personal attacks ...

So instead of your shit, why can't you tell them that they are eternal
beings and even if they do sin ( make a mistake) they will still be loved
and enjoy the infinity of life.

Because that's not Biblical Christianity ... we're not going to change our beliefs because it makes you uncomfortable. A Christian believes that Jesus is the ONLY way ... you may not agree, but we will not conform to the worlds views.

* Also note, Sinning is not making a mistake ... it is knowingly rebelling against the will (and law) of God.

seanx

24-08-2008, 12:54 PM

Seekingthetruth wrote:

QUOTE]The Bible makes it clear that God will NEVER punish his children. That being said, you are making the assumption that all the people of the world are Gods children ... when in fact the Bible says that those who have not repented of their sins and put their trust in Jesus are actually children of the Devil. (As each Christian was before they Repented of their sins and put their trust in Jesus)

The whole point of Jesus coming to the earth was to take on the Punishment for our sins on himself (God in person) so that we might be set free on the day of judgment. You may see the concept of Christianity as a fear based religion, and I suppose you're right in saying that. When you consider the fact that even our own human court system has penalties set aside for those who have committed crimes against humanity, would it not stand to reason that we must also be punished for the crimes we have committed against the holy and just God who created us?

God is so kind that He has created a way for our sins to be forgiven, even when we have done nothing to deserve forgiveness ... and your saying he's not a loving God? WE were the ones who broke his laws, and GOD was the one who paid the penalty for our sins in order that we are set free from the bondage of sin.

Is that not a loving thing to do? [/QUOTE]

It is only when you read the posts of these matrix christians ( and
whatever christian forum they have all come from ) is that you start
to feel genuine pity for them.

I mean listen to this total crap:

when in fact the Bible says that those who have not repented of their sins and put their trust in Jesus are actually children of the Devil. (As each Christian was before they Repented of their sins and put their trust in Jesus)

Again, more simple fear and terror. If you don't do this and this and
obey this 'entity' - Jesus, you'll be so and so....and then they will be
'children of the Devil

Children of the Devil??

And people like you, with such a sick perverted philosophy
are given access to our kids all over the world to preach that fear??

That is the saddest part of all.

if you want to know the real truth behind the Bible - read awakensong's
excellent posts.

She's doing you a favour. Helping to 'deprogram' you and the rest of
your gang.

I couldn't be bothered wasting any more time with you guys.

I'll leave you to your 'vengeful' God who needs you and all his
children to suffer horribly if they don't love him?

Or as penance for their 'sins'!

Tell me Sir, as a loving father,what penance, or horror do you inflict
on your children if they don't obey you during the day?

A Christian believes that Jesus is the ONLY way ... you may not agree, but we will not conform to the worlds views.

No-one is asking you to change your beliefs. The concern is for the
people, usually kids that you people focus on and then warp their minds
with this fear-based program.

All under the 'guise' of 'saving' their souls.

bendoon

24-08-2008, 02:54 PM

Answer the Question.

Don't run away.

You're not in front of a group of kids now, in Sunday
school that you can frighten into believing your
fairytale.

I answered it and you did not like the answer I gave because it did not fit with the stero type of Christianity that has been brainwashed into you. Repeat the exact part of the question you dispute that I answered and I will answer it.

SeanX; here is my summing up of you in a couple of sentences

You know there are serious things going wrong in the world, you haven't quite figured out who is responsible and why they do what they do, this makes you very angry. In your anger and due to the way you have been conditioned through the education system and the media you incorrectly blame this on Christianity.

awakensong

24-08-2008, 07:37 PM

You won't go very far arguing that decades is a long time for writing. As I showed earlier it is the Bible first and daylight second in terms of the number of available texts and the closeness to events. The Oddessy was distant second. If you want to be consistent then I would suggest that all the documentation that supports your position would also have to be discounted too as it wouldn't meet the criteria of being written within say 5 years of the events happening.
There were no printed bibles until Johannes Gutenberg invented the first printing press in the 15th century. Until then, "scriptures" were read to the congregants of churches. There were no "organized" scriptures until after the Council of Nicea in the 4th century, where they cherry picked what they liked, and threw out what they didn't.

My point was that if Paul thought Jesus was the Sun God why would he go and argue with the Jews that Jesus was the Christ then?
Well, sadly, "he" didn't. The evidence clearly indicates Paul never existed, so the question becomes who did do this then. That old criminal the vatican. They were seeking world dominance under the guise of a religion. The very word "religion" means "to bind" or put in bondage.

This is the video I was asking you to watch.
Sun of God? - YouTube

awakensong

24-08-2008, 07:46 PM

God is so kind that He has created a way for our sins to be forgiven, even when we have done nothing to deserve forgiveness ... and your saying he's not a loving God? WE were the ones who broke his laws, and GOD was the one who paid the penalty for our sins in order that we are set free from the bondage of sin.

Is that not a loving thing to do?
So you're saying that murder atones for murderers? And that's loving? What would a court system here on earth do to you if you killed your own son? Do you really understand the God Story?

Most people who either never were or are no longer Christians, are looking for a higher form of love and morality than what is shown in the bible. The god of the old testament reflected the human consciousness of their day, and we have grown past that in ours. It is our past, not our present or our future.

As Thomas Paine says in his long essay "The Age of Reason (http://www.ushistory.org/Paine/reason/index.htm)",
the bible reads more like the word of a demon than the word of a god.

The whole point of Jesus coming to the earth was to take on the Punishment for our sins on himself (God in person) so that we might be set free on the day of judgment. You may see the concept of Christianity as a fear based religion, and I suppose you're right in saying that. When you consider the fact that even our own human court system has penalties set aside for those who have committed crimes against humanity, would it not stand to reason that we must also be punished for the crimes we have committed against the holy and just God who created us?
If God were in our society, the courts would convict him for what he did to his own son. It is not a true story anyway, not a history book about "God", and not a biography of actual people. The bible is a book about the Sun. Holy Bible = Helios Biblos - "Book of the Sun".

seanx

24-08-2008, 08:02 PM

bendoon wrote:

I answered it and you did not like the answer I gave because it did not fit with the stero type of Christianity that has been brainwashed into you. Repeat the exact part of the question you dispute that I answered and I will answer it.

Your answer was a total joke.

'The Romans/jews did it'

First, you tell us that Jesus died for our sins to save us.

Now you tell us, no, he died because the Romans/jews just killed him?

So, now we are led to believe that by the romans killing him,
we have all been saved?

You must see, surely how much of a joke this is.

Why did the Romans kill him? If he was God, as you want us to
believe there was no need for him to be killed. He could have
created any reality he wanted.

But then you'll probably, God let it happen so that our sins could
be saved!

Which brings us rightr back to the Question you can't answer.

Why would God who IS ALL- Love want to torture one
of his sons, crucify him horribly as a punishment because humanity
disobey him?

What sick being would do that?

The answer is of course SIMPLE: He didn't crucify him.
It's all made-up. That 'story' is a perversion of the true nature of
God to create a mind -control religion based on suffering and fear.

In your anger and due to the way you have been conditioned through the education system and the media you incorrectly blame this on Christianity.

No, you are missing the point.

You and your gang don't represent Christianity. You represent a
sick, fear and terror-based perversion of Christianity.

A version today that most people just laugh at and feel pity for
the people who feel the need to 'convert' other people to this misery.

I suppose you have a point: If you are going to be miserable in
this 'vale of tears', you might as well drag as many people down with
you as possible.

conspiraca

24-08-2008, 08:29 PM

I suppose you have a point: If you are going to be miserable in
this 'vale of tears', you might as well drag as many people down with
you as possible.

Thats the commonality of it....they think its an all encompassing no fault religion that the world is going to bow down too. Better look over shoulder Islam is gaining on you fast.

awakensong

24-08-2008, 08:53 PM

The Christians say the Christos came once in a single character in history, Jesus of Judea, saying nothing about his coming to Everyman at all times. They present to the world the Only-Begotten Son of the Father, confusing in one historical figure two distinct characters of ancient philosophy, the Logos and the Christos, and making both historical in a human being born of woman. Suffice it to say that neither character was historical in the ancient systems - Alvin Boyd Kuhn (Great Myth of the Sun Gods)

The celebrated passage in Josephus concerning Christ being set aside as an acknowledged forgery, what remains of external evidence as to his existence? Absolutely nothing -J. P. Mendum (Revelations of the Anti-Christ, 1879)

I conferred not with flesh and blood - (Galatians 1:16)

...no evidence exists to support the view that the four Christian gospels give an historical account of the life, suffering and death of a physical Jesus. According to the Gospels, nobody saw Jesus, they only saw Christ, which means his spiritual not physical element - Ahmed Osman (Christianity: An Ancient Egyptian Religion)

conspiraca

24-08-2008, 09:10 PM

seekingthetruth

24-08-2008, 10:42 PM

And people like you, with such a sick perverted philosophy
are given access to our kids all over the world to preach that fear??

I'm not sure why you seem to think that Christians everywhere are abducting children and somehow brainwashing them in sunday schools across the country ... they wouldn't be there if their parents didn't want them there.

So you're saying that murder atones for murderers? And that's loving? What would a court system here on earth do to you if you killed your own son? Do you really understand the God Story?

You seem to be missing an important key factor in your view ... which is the fact that it was God who had been manifest in the form of a human (Jesus) and took the punishment for our sins on HIMSELF so that we can go free. God exists in three persons, yet remains one God (This is what is known as the 'Trinity')This means God exists as the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit ... think of it as a pyramid ... it takes three lines to make up a pyramid.

onourwayto2012

24-08-2008, 10:48 PM

awakensong

24-08-2008, 10:50 PM

You seem to be missing an important key factor in your view ... which is the fact that it was God who had been manifest in the form of a human (Jesus) and took the punishment for our sins on HIMSELF so that we can go free. God exists in three persons, yet remains one God (This is what is known as the 'Trinity')This means God exists as the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit ... think of it as a pyramid ... it takes three lines to make up a pyramid.
Ahh, ok, god's own suicide atones for murderers. Why didn't he just fall on his own sword instead of the huge production of a crucifixion?

The trinity and the pyramid - good topic that needs much better explaining than what the church will give.

awakensong

24-08-2008, 10:54 PM

Without getting into all the details I just want to say that listening to what Christians have to say about their "loving" God and religion is just downright creepy. It's like cognitive dissonance... love=murder, love=conformity, love=hate, etc.... it just gets weirder and weirder the more you really look at it. And then the Catholic and Jewish stuff is waaayy out there..... well and Islam, Hindu.....yeah.
Yes, the loving, vengeful god with multiple personalities of judeo-christianism, islam, etc..

Interesting you have website for that you can point me too?
Yes, it's sort of a "sneak preview" from one of the sources of what I was preparing to post soon (about sun symbols in christianity) that I promised yesterday.

http://www.irishoriginsofcivilization.com/irishoriginsexcerpts/irishorigins1.html#paganorigins-christ1

eternal_spirit

24-08-2008, 11:03 PM

Thing is I don't have a problem that some find comfort/faith etc in Christ.

It's ironic IMO-the things some of the Christ bashers believe, and the nonsense, teachings they promote and follow themselves, come from Intelligence agencies, Satanists, Freemasonry and occultists connected to the NWO.

But do they listen:rolleyes: some of us have tried to get through to them many times and beyond their brainwashing/programming.

I know there's some pro satanists and probably satanists etc on this thread. I've debated them before on these issues/topics. And they sure do show their true colours and attack me in the most insane vile ways possible.

But I have truth on my side so for all their lying ways, the truth wins over most of the time.

Thanks that will be all from me on this thread.

:)

eternal_spirit

24-08-2008, 11:11 PM

seanx

24-08-2008, 11:20 PM

Seekingthetruth wrote:

which is the fact that it was God who had been manifest in the form of a human (Jesus) and took the punishment for our sins on HIMSELF so that we can go free

You have got to laugh.

God who is all-love, omnisense, omnipresent and omnipotent
crucified 'himself ' so that another part of himself (humanity) could be
free to obey and honour himself?

You couldn't make it up.

Then you talk about....sins?

What sins?

Who told you we have 'sinned'? And that we need to be 'punished?

Who told you this?

Isn't it amazing how you have accepted as facts all these
crazy assumptions just because some book has told you this is
the way it is?

seanx

24-08-2008, 11:32 PM

IMO the things the occultists/New agers believe in are they really that different than believing in Christ. Let me try explain-Example they cannot prove chaos magic or the law of attraction the ascension etc etc etc exists anymore than the Christians who believe in Christ exists.

I'm taking a neutral stance on all of this and will not verify any set of beliefs one way or another and I'm not taking sides. Just throwing in some observations and theories.

One crucial difference which you seem to
forget: this matrix christianity threatens that you will be
'punished', 'destroyed' or rot in the damnation
of living hell if they don't FOLLOW their teachings.

We are not talking about their right to believe - but the
terrible damage these people do inflicting their fear-based
program on others.

Their programming is simple: : Either you believe in Jesus and
be saved OR you will be destroyed forever.

conspiraca

24-08-2008, 11:42 PM

Their programming is simple: : Either you believe in Jesus and
be saved OR you will be destroyed forever.

Exactly..........its fear based no other way to put it......and sad part about it is they are so brain washed that they cannot see the forest for the trees.

biblegirl

24-08-2008, 11:50 PM

http://www.irishoriginsofcivilization.com/irishoriginsexcerpts/irishorigins1.html#paganorigins-christ1

Sheesh, that website goes on forever. Funny, as I was just doing a study on akhenaton. I found the pictures quite interesting, the new baptist church with the sun and the eye was kinda creepy. There are so many conflicting accounts of history out there, how do we know what to believe? :confused:

Maybe I will get the hang of time travel so I can take a video camera back and record everything for us! ;)

conspiraca

24-08-2008, 11:51 PM

You nailed it brain washing is the keyword here its a way of instilling fear...oh you conform to this or that or the bad old devil will get you. All this stuff is nothing more than mythological story telling and is full of heretical contradictions and hearsay you ought to read this here:

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/biblical_problems.htm

thirdwave

24-08-2008, 11:51 PM

Christinaity is not a belife in science or somthing that is relevent of today and the things and people around us today...

it is about a book that was found around 2000 years ago and talks of sprittuality... only it confines it to a dogma where there is a motion set in place to how one should think... and what one should belive...

So without even paying any attention to the stack of tangible things that prove that the bible is absolutely a tool of manipulation, you can see it is not a path of evolution or expantion... its a path to limited perseption.

this is ok if one really feels the need to have a god they can worship to take the weight of their shoulders, but its when they judge others with the eyes of there god... this is where it gets tricky...

Stuff like New Age (which is just a generalised word anyway as there is nothing set in stone as to what New Age is) , But at least it is relevant of today and interacts with the theories behind quantum physics, and that you are not putting your self in the hands of a god...

Some people are always naturally dogmatic and you get this yes... But one like David Icke is nothing like another "new ager" out there... even though many would like to brush him off as the same...

and its likewise with other occult movements, its not about worshipping one energy force and putting all your faith into one vibration....

and again it is based on ones inner self and the world of today with an understanding of modern science and the human mind and body.

Some of the characters used to create the "Jesus Christ" charterer where clearly people who understood and practised occult knowledge... from meditation to rituals and mind over matter... so on...

I guess you could say that Jesus Christ (or what ever person/persons he was), was more or less a New Age Occultist of his time who has been desperately misunderstood and had his views and actions obliterated.

And you only need to look at the story of Jesus and think if it is true and Christ really did send his son to his bloody death, then we have proof that Christ believed in human sacrifice... another chilling realisation... I wonder who cooked up that one :eek:

Although its quite patronising for me to say so I will say it as it true... I see Christianity as a little paddling pool in the back garden for people who are too afraid of the sea.... so of course they don't learn to swim and never get to stand up in the water.. if someone swims in the sea and ends up getting pulled in the tied or they get bitten by a fish then they are told it was the Satan Sea.... while they role around on their bellies flapping there arms and legs bragging about how safe they are. there is a pocket of people here who very much need that paddling pool...

awakensong

25-08-2008, 12:24 AM

Sheesh, that website goes on forever. Funny, as I was just doing a study on akhenaton. I found the pictures quite interesting, the new baptist church with the sun and the eye was kinda creepy.
I think the site puts forth evidence worth considering that Washington, D.C. is not just patterned after Zionism or Freemasonry, but it is Atonist.
There are so many conflicting accounts of history out there, how do we know what to believe? :confused:
Maybe it isn't possible to know it all. Just be?
Maybe I will get the hang of time travel so I can take a video camera back and record everything for us! ;)
Great, be sure to post! :):D

amethyst

25-08-2008, 12:25 AM

Seekingthetruth wrote:

You have got to laugh.

God who is all-love, omnisense, omnipresent and omnipotent
crucified 'himself ' so that another part of himself (humanity) could be
free to obey and honour himself?

You couldn't make it up.

Then you talk about....sins?

What sins?

Who told you we have 'sinned'? And that we need to be 'punished?

Who told you this?

Isn't it amazing how you have accepted as facts all these
crazy assumptions just because some book has told you this is
the way it is?

Seanx,

Do you know what sin is?

Have you ever hated someone or something?

Have you ever been jealous?

Have you ever lied?

That is what sin is.

"Sin" is also things like murder, and stealing, and cheating and hatred that drives people to do evil things.

But Jesus Christ voluntarily went to the cross and died for all those same sins, so that by believing in Him, man would have forgiveness of those sins.

Yes, whether we want to admit it or not, we as human beings, are not perfect. But there is one who is perfect AND is without sin, and His name is Jesus the Christ.

Hatred keeps people bound up emotionally, intellectual and even physically. And you are not free when you are bound up in hate.

But by believing in Jesus one will have freedom and forgiveness when they are honest with God and just get real with Him and tell Him where they have messed up.

That's basically called confession and it's something you tell God and not another man in some confession booth......cuz THAT is taking the place of God, and there is only one God, and a priest or other person of the cloth is NOT God.

It really is a win-win situation.

It's not about being condemned Seanx. It's about what real freedom is all about. When a person is weighed down with sin, a person is not free, although they might lie to themselves and think that they are free. But they are really not.

It's also about being restored into a right relationship with God, who dwells in perfection and unending light.

And to experience a love from God that is so unfathomable, that you really can't put it into words.

God is love. And God loves you. This is the truth.

thirdwave

25-08-2008, 12:40 AM

krakhead

25-08-2008, 12:45 AM

amethyst

25-08-2008, 12:48 AM

Ok first of all... things like being gay is meant to be a sin.... having more than one woman is meant to be a sin...

useing the lord name in vane is meant to be a sin... it is not just negative emotions like greed and jealousy ...so on.... there are many things that are labelled as sin, that are simply just a matter of preference.

And second of all.... We understand that Jesus was meant to be perfect and died for our sins... we are just saying we think its bullshit.

Not only is the fact that Christ would send a human down to suffer such a horrible and painful humiliating death to save our sins compleatly and utterly vile, but it is also compleatly illogical and stupid.... it is emotional black mail and useing guilt and fear as a way of making one submit to the Lord.

I will NEVER give a speck of respect to a god who would allow one of his sons to suffer so deeply because he thinks it would save others sins...

for a start it did not work... so supposedly made Jesus spill his blood and die for pretty much nothing as there has been ever bit as much sin before and after... in fact more so.

and there is no logic or explanation as to why Jesus would have had to suffer so much to save our sins anyway.... what did Christ make a deal with Jesus? ... he would wipe away all our stupid actions of Jesus would go and be tortured to death? .... Christ being so powerful and all that, would there not have been a slightly more civil and positive method?

one that did not require a man being whipped to the flesh and then having his hands and feel hammered onto a tree?.... I mean if Christ really did send Jesus down to do that hideous task then maybe Lucifer was bang on the mark in getting out of there!!... he probebelly thought "fuck this shit!, This Christ guy is a compleat arse hole!!, Im off!!"

Tw, I have no desire to argue with you about it. You do not have to believe or agree with me. But it is the truth I know. I wrote this here minus my purple highlighting:
Seanx,

I don't know what you've been told before by some "men of the cloth", but I want to tell you that you are loved unconditionally by God, whether you believe that or you do not.

I want to tell you that you are an eternal being, and even if you sin, you will still be loved by God.

That is why God came to earth, in the form of a flesh man Jesus the Christ, the Messiah, and that is why he died in man's place. It was for mankind that He died.

You asked why would God make His own Son die a terrible death?

because the toll of sin has a very high price. Because of sin, we have death, we die. It started way back in the garden when it entered into mankind.

Sin caused separation between God and man, whereas before, there was no separation between God and man. But when sin entered in, man began to die.

But God did not want that for man, who was created in His image and His likeness. He wanted man to live eternally, forever and ever. But sin stopped this for man.

So God, because he loved mankind so much, had to send His only Son to die in man's place, for mankind's sin.

It was the ultimate sacrifice that God did, allowing His Son, who was God in the flesh when He walked on the earth, to die.

It was the ultimate act of love that Jesus, who was without any sin, would voluntarily offer up Himself, so that man would be reconciled back to the Father.

It was an act of extreme love for every single individual on the face of the earth, whether they choose to believe it or not.

Because God wants all men to be where He is, ruling and reigning with Him.

Jesus was ressurected after he died and is alive now forever. He tasted death so that we would have life.

It's not about listening to some fallible man tell you what to do and not to do. It it about having a personal relationship with God who created all things and that includes each and every man/woman. And listening to Him with your spirit. He is the one who knows you better than you know yourself.

Not a fallible man, who may or may not care about you. God cares about you. He is worth listening to.

As the scripture you might be familiar with says,

""For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

thirdwave

25-08-2008, 12:51 AM

And don't forget covering your neighbours ox! BIG sin in the old guys eyes! I for one enjoy sneaking out at night and throwing a big blankie over my neighbours ox - you should see his face in the morning! Priceless! ;)

and Jesus died for that! :)

thirdwave

25-08-2008, 12:58 AM

Tw, I have no desire to argue with you about it. You do not have to believe or agree with me. But it is the truth I know. I wrote this here minus my purple highlighting:

No need to argue...

All Im saying is if Jesus was really sent down by Christ to suffer the way he did, just for effect on the people and their sins.... then I would then join teams with the Anti Christ... As it stands I don't think a man called Jesus was sent down by "Christ" to go through such sick death and create such a horrible story, and there for I think both Christinaity and the Anti Christ are full of it...

krakhead

25-08-2008, 01:00 AM

and Jesus died for that! :)

Well then, out of respect for the guy, I should enjoy it even more! :D

thirdwave

25-08-2008, 01:10 AM

Well then, out of respect for the guy, I should enjoy it even more! :D

good point... I should start sinning more, after all, waste not want not!! :D Thanks Jesus!!!!

krakhead

25-08-2008, 01:15 AM

good point... I should start sinning more, after all, waste not want not!! :D Thanks Jesus!!!!

LOL! Exactly! Sinners love Jesus WAY more than the devout EVER could! At least we appreciate his efforts and make sure they weren't in vain! ;)

bendoon

25-08-2008, 01:46 AM

Why would God who IS ALL- Love want to torture one
of his sons, crucify him horribly as a punishment because humanity
disobey him?
.

Wow you finally posed the question.

Answer; he didn't

(about sun symbols in christianity)

Hate to correct your false information, Christianity does not have any symbols whatsoever, all symbolism is regarded as idol worship.

thirdwave

25-08-2008, 01:50 AM

LOL! Exactly! Sinners love Jesus WAY more than the devout EVER could! At least we appreciate his efforts and make sure they weren't in vain! ;)

lol

krakhead

25-08-2008, 01:51 AM

Wow you finally posed the question.

Answer; he didn't

But he did put him in a position where he knew his son would undergo terrible physical suffering, even making his son feel as if he had been abandoned in his darkest hour - and being God, you know, he'd probably have known in advance that this would happen. Bit mean wasn't it?

thirdwave

25-08-2008, 02:14 AM

bendoon

25-08-2008, 02:41 AM

But he did put him in a position where he knew his son would undergo terrible physical suffering, even making his son feel as if he had been abandoned in his darkest hour - and being God, you know, he'd probably have known in advance that this would happen. Bit mean wasn't it?

The laws of the Universe (Gods Laws) are perfect and can never be broken, especially by God himself. The Laws of the OT were given to the Israelite Nation as a binding covenant and these Laws too could not be broken by God himself, even though the Israelites broke them many times. Some of these Laws may seem a bit strict to us today but they only had a few hundred in contrast to the hundreds of thousands of man made Laws, rules and regulations we have today. Because the Israelites broke these Laws so many times God divorced them for "Adultery" as allowed under the laws he had given them. In order that he could remarry Israel he had to manifest himself in a human body and die so that he could remarry them under a new Covenant (Contract), again under the laws he had given them.

So whats the point ? you may ask, God will never renege on a promise even though we do, even if it means feeling pain in a human body (being crucufied). And wether you think its all just a made up story or it actually happened is really irrelevant, the moral is in the story so to speak.

And what is the moral of the story ? If you adhere to the new Covenant you can gain "eternal life", wether that be in somewhere called heaven (a spiritual realm ? another planet ?) or a perfect Earth not bothered by people who only want to impose their own Laws on you is not clear to me at present.

So what is the new Covenant ? summed up here;

But the Pharisees, when they heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, gathered themselves together. One of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him. "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?"
Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. A second likewise is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."

Matthew 22:34-40

So if you don't want your "neighbour" to drop DU munitions on your house, don't do it to them, not really hard is it.

If the Government, Church or whoever ( represented in the quoted verse by the Pharisees/Lawyer) tell you to, ignore them, not really hard is it.

If they tell you to burn witches, kill Pagans or whatever, ignore them, they are Anti Christs and not Christian.

BTW, the Israeli state of today is of no relation to the Israelites of the Bible.

thirdwave

25-08-2008, 02:58 AM

The laws of the Universe (Gods Laws) are perfect and can never be broken, especially by God himself.

Well thanks for that tangible bit of info!

I think the point that God could create such unbreakable Laws still pretty much shows that he is the arse hole here though.... either that of not as smart as one would think.

and I would have thought God can create anything he likes.... and if he cant then there must be other forces at work.

maybe a God 2,or something...

awakensong

25-08-2008, 03:02 AM

Hate to correct your false information, Christianity does not have any symbols whatsoever, all symbolism is regarded as idol worship.
Can't even wait until you see what I offer? It seems you have no idea of the roots of your religion.

Besides the sun which is foremost, what is the cross, if not a symbol? What is the fish, the dove, praying hands, crown of thorns, face of "Jesus", the eagle, the lamb, the rainbow, the palm leaf, the butterfly, the rose, the 3 nails, the anchor, the chi-rho or "siglia", alpha-omega, the torch of truth?

Each number even has a symbology:

1 the Undivided Oneness of God

2 the two natures of Christ; both the Divine and the material

3 the Three Persons of the Most Holy Trinity, the three Magi and their gifts

4 the Evangelists and their Gospels; the elements, humors and material world; North, South, East, and West; the four seasons

5 the Five Wounds; the senses

6 the days of creation; creation fallen; imperfection

7 covenant, oath; perfection; the day God rested (the Sabbath being the sign of the Covenant with Adam); the seven colors the rainbow (a sign of the Covenant made with Noe); the seven Sacraments (the Covenant sign made with the Church); the Gifts of the Holy Ghost; the virtues and vices

8 the visible world, made in seven days, with the invisible kingdom of grace following; regeneration

9 man's imperfection; the choirs of Angels

10 the Commandments; the Plagues of Egypt

12 the tribes of Israel; the Apostles; the signs of the Zodiac; the hours of the day and the hours of the night; the penetration of matter with spirit (3 X 4)

13 betrayal; Judas

33 the number of years of Jesus's human life

40 testing and trial; the years of the Deluge; the years of wandering in the desert in Exodus; the days Moses spent on Mt. Sinai; Christ's days in the desert

666 the number of the Beast. (Also 616 in some later manuscripts, a number rejected by St. Irenaeas as a scribal error).

1000 the milennium -- the Church Age
Source (http://www.fisheaters.com/symbols.html)

You will see soon enough about the sun when I get the post ready. It is taking some time because I have to open a place to store the photos I'll be uploading.

bendoon

25-08-2008, 03:31 AM

Can't even wait until you see what I offer? It seems you have no idea of the roots of your religion.

May give it a look, I have an open mind.

Besides the sun which is foremost, what is the cross, if not a symbol? What is the fish, the dove, praying hands, crown of thorns, face of "Jesus", the eagle, the lamb, the rainbow, the palm leaf, the butterfly, the rose, the 3 nails, the anchor, the chi-rho or "siglia", alpha-omega, the torch of truth?

All pagan symbols brought in by the Anti Christs (Reptillians, Illuminati, Satanists or WHY), to trick real Christians and others into following their counterfeit Christianity.

Each number even has a symbology

Yes Numerology is part of the Bible, to enable those who want to persue a deeper understanding to do so, also to verify its authenticity, Numerology is also used by the enemy to convey their own meanings. I don't really see a contradiction here.

bgrade_actor

25-08-2008, 03:36 AM

There were no printed bibles until Johannes Gutenberg invented the first printing press in the 15th century. Until then, "scriptures" were read to the congregants of churches. There were no "organized" scriptures until after the Council of Nicea in the 4th century, where they cherry picked what they liked, and threw out what they didn't.

There were plenty of Hebrew Old Testaments followed by a Greek Old Testament then the apostles wrote what today is considered the New Testament. The Greek church in the early days had papyrus scrolls which contained the greek new testament and greek old testament. These scrolls were popularized by the early greek church and came into common use. (And hence the baton relay in the Olympics!) So whilst the printing press brought the bible into popular culture the manuscripts were around a lot longer than 1400

What you stated about Nicea is correct for the Catholics however William Tyndale translated his version of the Bible which then became the King James from these original text. He bypassed the Catholic Control on the scriptures so if you today pickup a King James Bible you are essentially reading a English translation of what the original texts say. And subsequently the Catholics tried to kill him! There was no cherry picking as Tyndale used the original scripts from the early greek church..

Well, sadly, "he" didn't. The evidence clearly indicates Paul never existed, so the question becomes who did do this then.

There is plenty of criticism of Paul and his writings, and there are plenty of Professors who have problems with what he says. However, noonne disputes his existence. So unless you have historical documentation or can point me to some, I would suggest that your claim is unfounded.

Watched the video, interesting theory but again has very little support. And if the bible is so unreliable as you claim, then so are all those myths that the bible is supposedly copying!

Also a few more facts that would dispute your theory that chirstianity ripped off the Sun God and replaced it with Jesus and the apostles.

In the following verses Jesus predicts that Solomons temple would be destroyed: Luke 21:5, Matthew 24:1 Mark 13:1

A fairly significant claim. However it is interesting that none of the gospels make mention of it. The Romans rolled the temple in 70AD and took the gold and whatever else that they wanted. Given that it was obvious that the Jesus’s prediction had come true if the New testament was written 100’s of years later why didn’t someone point out this major detail. Also, if the gospels were fabrications of mythical events then anything to bolster the Messianic claims -- such as the destruction of the temple as Jesus prophesied -- would surely have been included. There is also no mention of the destruction of the temple in the books of Acts either. A fairly large oversight if it is all made up wouldn’t you think?

bgrade_actor

25-08-2008, 03:45 AM

Again if Jesus is made up how do you account for Flavius Josephus the Jewish Historian? Born in Jerusalem around 37 A.D. He died around the year 101.

The following would at least suggest that Jesus existed and isn't some made up incarnation of the Sun God.

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

There is plenty of evidence out there folks. What you want to do with it is up to you.

awakensong

25-08-2008, 04:22 AM

Seanx,

Do you know what sin is?

Have you ever hated someone or something?

Have you ever been jealous?

Have you ever lied?

That is what sin is.

"Sin" is also things like murder, and stealing, and cheating and hatred that drives people to do evil things.

But Jesus Christ voluntarily went to the cross and died for all those same sins, so that by believing in Him, man would have forgiveness of those sins.

Yes, whether we want to admit it or not, we as human beings, are not perfect. But there is one who is perfect AND is without sin, and His name is Jesus the Christ.

Hatred keeps people bound up emotionally, intellectual and even physically. And you are not free when you are bound up in hate.

But by believing in Jesus one will have freedom and forgiveness when they are honest with God and just get real with Him and tell Him where they have messed up.

That's basically called confession and it's something you tell God and not another man in some confession booth......cuz THAT is taking the place of God, and there is only one God, and a priest or other person of the cloth is NOT God.

It really is a win-win situation.

It's not about being condemned Seanx. It's about what real freedom is all about. When a person is weighed down with sin, a person is not free, although they might lie to themselves and think that they are free. But they are really not.

It's also about being restored into a right relationship with God, who dwells in perfection and unending light.

And to experience a love from God that is so unfathomable, that you really can't put it into words.

God is love. And God loves you. This is the truth.
Was the Jesus portrayed in the Bible a paragon of virtue? I was not real happy to learn about this, but it is better than continuing to believe a lie and continuing to follow "the tragedy of religion". We are headed back into the dark ages if we don't stop all this nonsense.

Was Jesus sinless and perfect? Did he know what sin was, but commit them? Did he encourage others to do so as well? If any of this is true, his alleged sacrificial death is of no use to anyone, according to your own theology. He also had a very poor sense of direction in his travels, and practiced cruelty to animals.

If you read very carefully and compare the sayings, something begins to stand out. Whether Jesus was a real man or someone the church made up, he was a Matrix agent, as can be seen by his own hypocrisies. He taught against stealing, yet he stole, he taught against lying, yet he lied, he commanded the keeping of the sabbath, yet he broke it himself (and justified it by calling himself lord of sabbaoth), he arrogantly interfered where he didn't belong, he cursed people, bushes and trees. His story reads like he's some kind of maniac walking around loose. He choose all 12 apostles in one fell swoop, and didn't care that they wielded their swords around as they accompanied him on his journeys to teach peace? Why did he practice discompassionate ways towards others? He never condemned the practice of slavery, but it wasn't okay to do business as usual in the synagogue. He threatens eternal punishment for anyone who won't listen to his preaching and follow his intimidating offers of "believe or burn". He spoke in "parables" so no one could understand except the chosen.

He does not love his own enemies:

Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." – Matthew 5.44

"Resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." – Matthew 5.39

Having told his fans to love their enemies, alarmingly, Jesus also tells them to turn families into enemies!
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." – Matthew 10.35,36

" If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." – Luke 14.26

How far does Jesus go with this malevolent (and plainly ridiculous) dictum? Matthew provides the answer:
"And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." – Matthew 10.21
Sound like Nazi Germany???

"To achieve world government, it is necessary to remove from the minds of men, their individualism, loyalty to family traditions, national patriotism and religious dogmas." G. Brock Chisholm, co-founder of the World Federation for Mental Health, former director of UN World Health Organization

Who are we kidding? Try telling George Born Again Bush to love his enemies. Hating enemies, punishing wrong-doers, bringing retribution to the wicked are as natural and as necessary as daylight. Even Jesus does not heed his own advice, threatening those who don't believe in him with hell:
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be damned"
– Mark 16.16
He has a quote for every occasion and every pronouncement has divine authority. Jesus Christ is truly a Superman for All Seasons.

Jesus mocked traditional values of family, food practices and religious observance and even offered a bribe for abandoning wives and children:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."
– Matthew 19:29

The church says God is against homosexuality, yet what about the passage of the naked youth running away in the Garden? It staggers the mind to think what the rest of that passage may have said if they hadn't cut it out of the bible.

See, this is what is so annoying about the continued proliferation of all this nonsense, and how it has been the utter downfall of our civilization. But I understand it is the fear that one will "lose their salvation" if they dare to question things, so until one feels they can get past that, they are stuck.

The universal defence from Christians of all shades is that it is not Christ that has failed but man himself. The godman was perfect, pure, his message cut from whole-cloth 100% sweetness and light.

Before you sign up for the rest of eternity snuggled up with this supersized prince of perfection, spare a moment to consider what he would be like even as your next door neighbour.

"Perfection" should extend to every teaching and action and yet if we look closely at the behaviour and utterances of our superstar we find no paragon of virtue.

"The story of Jesus Christ appearing after he was dead is the story of an apparition, such as timid imaginations can always create in vision, and credulity believe. Stories of this kind had been told of the assassination of Julius Caesar..." [Thomas Paine]

“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. It has been the most destructive to the peace of man since man began to exist. Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses, who gave an order to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and then rape the daughters. One of the most horrible atrocities found in the literature of any nation. I would not dishonor my Creator's name by attaching it to this filthy book.
“Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be true.” Thomas Paine,

Source (http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/neighbour.html)

Source (http://thememlingindex.com/thomas_paine_anti_christianity_quotes.html)

awakensong

25-08-2008, 04:50 AM

noonne disputes his existence. So unless you have historical documentation or can point me to some, I would suggest that your claim is unfounded.
No one disputes it??? Are you really sure about that? I can provide plenty of references to those who do; can you provide references to writers, scholars, historians and researchers who provide the evidence that he existed?