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john white
25-04-2007, 08:40 PM
I like to get around the place on 'tinternet, and I commonly try out lines of thinking and practise communication skills on "conventional" forums. Today I had a chance to write on the subject of banking, thought I'd share with you all

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30400-1256664,00.html BoE Takes Property Blame
Updated: 13:33, Tuesday March 20, 2007

The group that decides the interest rate deliberately fuelled a consumer boom to boost house prices and personal debt so that "UK Plc" could avoid recession.

Former governor Edward George said the Monetary Policy Committee "did not have much of a choice" in the matter.

The MPC members were battling to use interest rates to prevent the UK being dragged into a worldwide economic slump, he explained.

And, he said, his legacy to the MPC - which decides the rate - was to "sort out" the problems that policy had caused.

Lord George - who headed the Bank for a decade until June 2003 - revealed that he knew the approach was not sustainable as he gave evidence to a committee of MPs.

The terrorist attacks on the US in September 2001 caused a stock market crash in the US, and a sharp fall in the global markets.

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"We only had two alternative ways of sustaining demand and keeping the economy moving forward: One was public spending and the other was consumption.

"We knew that we were having to stimulate consumer spending; we knew we had pushed it up to levels which couldn't possibly be sustained into the medium and long term.

"But for the time being, if we had not done that the UK economy would have gone into recession just as has the United States.

"That pushed up house prices, it increased household debt ... my legacy to the MPC if you like has been `sort that out'."

"We tried very hard not to do more than we needed to keep within the inflation target limits but we knew that that was going to cause problems later on which are still with us."

Concerns have been raised that the present official rate of inflation does not reflect the everyday experience of many voters.If this is true and the people that knew about it bought into property during this period with this knowledge, could this not be the biggest case of insider trading *ever*?

I don't consider this to be true in so much as I consider it to be a cover story

Highly regrettably, humanity is blighted by a general ignorance about the banking system and how it operates: generally we exist in a state of blind trust regarding banking and the power that control of the monetary system represents.

Especially, we are ignorant of the widespread practice of fractional reserve banking. In operation for over 300 years, fractional reserve banking allows the banks to create money by multiplying the assets the bank holds by a factor of ten (or more) when calculating how much money is available to be lent as loans. New money is not minted as notes or coins, but created as debts. The upshot of this is if I take out a mortgage for £100,000, only £10,000 pounds actually exists: the rest is credit created on my promise to repay the loan with the product of my work for the length of the loan, and of course, if I default, the bank gets to take my actual assets against the debt. It really is a stroke of the pen business

Generally, Gordon Brown's transfer of control of interest rates to the Bank of England is considered very positively, as a move that has brought great stability to the UK economy (politicians not being trustable with the nation’s finances. However, the upshot of this is that control of the economy has been surrendered from elected representatives and given over to un-elected non-representatives

In addition to this, we are generally ignorant that the Bank of England is neither owned by the government or by the crown, but is in fact a private company: a private company whose shareholders are protected by absolute secrecy. So in effect Gordon Brown handed over control of the economy to a private corporation, that the people have no oversight or democratic redress of whatsoever

In 1997, total indebtedness of the British people (mortgages, loans, credit cards) stood at 77 billion. Amazingly, ten years later banks are lending the same amount every two months: that is, over a billion pounds in debt is created out of "thin air" every single day. On the surface, this looks like good news, lots more money for people to buy goods and services: but is it?

Consider house prices: the cost of a family home has essentially trebled since 1997. In order to afford this level of debt, it is now common practise for both partners to have to work to service a debt based on lending an amount equal to six times joint annual income: even in the midst of the Thatcher years, most mortgages were no more than 3 times higher wage earners annual income: that is a massive increase in profits for the banks, or put another way, a massive increase in enservitude to the banking system. People consider the value of their homes to show how much better off they are. But again, is this true?

Lets say a home in 1997 cost £60,000, covering a quarter of an acre of land and constructed from 6000 bricks (with the value of a home commonly considered to be a 50/50 split between the worth of the building and the worth of the land it stands on). Such a home is more than likely worth in excess of £180,000 today. But does this show the value of the home has increased? A comparable home cannot be bought for £60,000. It’s still made of 6000 bricks and covers the same amount of land, and can only be purchased at a significant increase in liability of indebtedness. Could it not equally be said that the massive rise in house prices in fact shows the level of devaluation of the economy? An economy inflated not by the value of physical assets, but by debt created at minimal risk to the banks through fractional reserve banking?

Historically, there are parallels with our current situation. Banks, upon gaining control of interest rates, have usually made credit freely available for a period of about 20 years. Then, the banks simply turn off the tap, and cease making new credit freely available. The inevitable result is a massive foreclosure on debts, and real wealth (control of physical assets) being sucked into the banking system, making the people even more dependant on the money supply and willing to accept a society with far fewer basic protections and rights

Perhaps even more concerning is the fact that Britain’s gold reserves have been slowly removed from the country over the last ten years and removed to Europe to be put under the control of the EU: essentially these gold reserves were sold for credit (also produced out of thin air by the European banking system)

Could it be that the reasons politicians like Tony Blair are continuing to push forward plans for European integration with no concern for the opinions of the people is because the people will ultimately have little choice in the matter?

Should the UK economy collapse because the banks turn off the credit supply, and with no Gold reserve to back a re-floated pound, what other option would there be but to join the Euro immediately and irrevocably (with the total loss of parliamentary sovereignty?) In fact, would people, unable to perceive accurately the events that have led them to that place, and in there fear and distress about their future and security, not clamour and demand for just such a move?

There are wheels within wheels moving all around us

mcmenek1
26-04-2007, 05:46 AM
Hi,

Excellent post there john white........very good observations

Should the UK economy collapse because the banks turn off the credit supply, and with no Gold reserve to back a re-floated pound, what other option would there be but to join the Euro immediately and irrevocably (with the total loss of parliamentary sovereignty?) In fact, would people, unable to perceive accurately the events that have led them to that place, and in there fear and distress about their future and security, not clamour and demand for just such a move?

I very much agree with this statement.......the UK is being set up for a monumental financial crash which will come about via the rigged housing market......the main aim of this of course is to get us into Europe by stealth......I can see the politicians lining up now saying...... "The only way the economy can be saved is by the UK joining Europe"......and the "Powers That Be " will have hoodwinked the people yet again.

Love
&
Peace

freespark
26-04-2007, 10:35 AM
Good stuff John.

Can you provide a link as i would like to see what replies you are getting?

john white
26-04-2007, 01:54 PM
Well Freespark, if you dont mind I shall keep the location of the discussion private, in part becuase I am practising putting info out close to consensual reality and hinting at, rather than going into, conspiracyville terms: and I'd like to avoid the possibility of a well meaning intervention on the thread that could shut down the conversation

Responses are good, hit a lot of home points

latest is this:

Right - (JW)- a very interesting post, though slightly at a tangent to the earlier discussion. I'd agree that the huse rise in debt is going to be a major problem for the medium term: and is likely to move an ever-increasing amount of money into the hands of the banks. While your home may be 'worth' more, in reality most people are just paying more money in interest to the banks; I certainly am.

I'd also agree about the loss of the UK's gold. But I'm not so sure that it is a 'plot' to force us into the Euro - at least, if that is the intention, then who is behind it? Surely not the BofE... as they would have the most to lose....

So I shall have to walk a fine line here....

john white
26-04-2007, 06:54 PM
OK, this is what I went for...

Hi RESPONDEE, clearly lots to build on from my first post

I’d like to start by discussing the context behind my initial post a bit more. What made me feel like making a reply were of course the words of Eddie George

The group that decides the interest rate deliberately fuelled a consumer boom to boost house prices and personal debt so that "UK Plc" could avoid recession.

Former governor Edward George said the Monetary Policy Committee "did not have much of a choice" in the matter.

The MPC members were battling to use interest rates to prevent the UK being dragged into a worldwide economic slump, he explained.

And, he said, his legacy to the MPC - which decides the rate - was to "sort out" the problems that policy had caused.

I read this another way. To me, it equally appeared to say:

“the group with control of interest rates deliberately flooded the market with credit, massively increasing the control of the banking system over the countries finances. They did this because they wanted to, and are spinning it to give the impression consumers gave them no choice, when of course they had every choice, because they had control. No-one gets a mortgage if the bank won’t lend them the money, after all”

I then felt it was an opportunity to discuss two pieces of little known hard information, namely the fractional reserve banking system (the consequences of which go far deeper than I’ve outlined so far) and the fact that the bank of England is a privately owned company with control of the UK economy

The later part of my post is entirely speculative, and I wouldn’t want to get sucked into discussing specifics of a “plot” about which there are few specifics, but more accurately tenancies and trends that may have meaning. Certainly the number of high level people both in politics and banking who have declared we will have the euro and be part of a federated Europe whether we like it or not is rather large, and by no means insignificant. Its reaonable to assume such people have had some idea of why that is the case and some basis for making the claim. Mostly I wished to outline the level of exposure the shifting of the UK’s gold reserves have left us in, on the basis of giving food for thought

In part, there is a difficulty in that understanding banking ultimately leads to understanding banking as a global force, as potent as any army, more powerful than any political ideology or state. But it also requires personal involvement to shift through many conflicting opinions without necessarily accepting any of them and seeing through some powerful emotional barriers: so in practise it’s a difficult subject for internet forums, lacking the certainty of reaching ultimate “truth”

A bit of history regarding the Bank of England may help: it was established (if I remember right) in 1694, and was essentially the payoff for the moneylenders who had financed William of Oranges army of Dutch and German mercenaries with which he seized the throne from the Stuarts. British nobility had the opportunity to buy shares in the bank, as did European nobility and of course the moneylenders themselves. The investors in the bank were then, and have always been since, absolutely secret. From the POV of the bank therefore, England has always been a branch of the company rather than the whole of the firm. The same banking families that backed William of Orange later backed Napoleon, who was hardly a friend to England, despite them almost certainly (how could they not?) holding shares. But then they financed England too (of course). With the ability to create wealth at the stroke of a pen, banks rarely fail to profit from wars

Essentially, my point is that power (and money is obviously power), at the highest levels, has never been a respecter of National Boundaries: such concepts are for the ordinary nation as a whole: and the fabulously wealthy have never been ordinary. The Bank of England may have had a vested interest in keeping England profitable, but it’s only nominally bound to England itself. If the people who own the Bank of England are equally interested in creating a federal European State, why would they not use one asset to advance the other?

I’m not saying this is a strong argument: I’m not saying I can make a strong argument. But I am saying we should be careful what we assume: and that, for better or worse, a private company has our financial fates completely in its control

I’ll come back later with some more points about Fractional reserve banking

beetzart
26-04-2007, 08:18 PM
I really enjoyed your post John. I occasionally post about banking on other forums normally to only recieve, well, no response at all, even on the penaltycharges site. Did you know there is a political party in the UK called the Money Reform Party? It's site is www.moneyreformparty.org.uk. Well worth a look as it details all the things people don't know about banks.

john white
26-04-2007, 08:30 PM
I really enjoyed your post John. I occasionally post about banking on other forums normally to only recieve, well, no response at all, even on the penaltycharges site. Did you know there is a political party in the UK called the Money Reform Party? It's site is www.moneyreformparty.org.uk. Well worth a look as it details all the things people don't know about banks.

Cheers mate: it certainly is a great site, I know it well, and thanks for the reminder too. I deliberatley kept away from talking about financing Hitler/stalin and tried to get across the example of the theme using the historically "safer" Napolean, and also keep away from anything too certain, like "I can prove this!". Money is a very challenging topic to talk about on forums generally, its hard to pitch it right to keep peoples interest so they don't just shut down, but I'm also convinced that the nature of money is probably the biggest and most relevant elephant in the living room of the lot when it comes to gently prising minds open and letting a bit of consciousness seep through

freespark
26-04-2007, 08:43 PM
Thanks for the link Beetz...

beetzart
26-04-2007, 08:45 PM
So very true John. You hear everyday people moaning about money someway or the other and they just resign themselves to it without a fight. I've tried telling friends and family but it never sinks in. The banks truly have performed the most decietful trick ever on humanity. Money should be our servant, not master.

john white
02-07-2007, 04:49 AM
These are my collection of quotes I had on me in the Rabbit Hole talk, thought I'd post them all here
------------------------------------
Who Has Said What About the Creation of the Money Supply by the Private Banks:

Bankers

"The bank hath benefit of interest on all moneys which it creates out of nothing."

William Paterson, founder of the Bank of England in 1694, then a privately owned bank.

"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812), founder of the House of Rothschild.

"The few who understand the system will either be so interested in its profits or be so dependent upon its favours that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests." The Rothschild brothers of London writing to associates in New York, 1863.
"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the Earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits, and with the flick of a pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for this world would be a happier and better world to live in. But if you wish to remain slaves of the Bankers and pay for the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits." Sir Josiah Stamp, President of the Bank of England in the 1920s, the second richest man in Britain.

"I am afraid the ordinary citizen will not like to be told that the banks can and do create money. And they who control the credit of the nation direct the policy of Governments and hold in the hollow of their hand the destiny of the people." Reginald McKenna, as Chairman of the Midland Bank, addressing stockholders in 1924.

"The banks do create money. They have been doing it for a long time, but they didn't realise it, and they did not admit it. Very few did. You will find it in all sorts of documents, financial textbooks, etc. But in the intervening years, and we must be perfectly frank about these things, there has been a development of thought, until today I doubt very much whether you would get many prominent bankers to attempt to deny that banks create it." H W White, Chairman of the Associated Banks of New Zealand, to the New Zealand Monetary Commission, 1955.

Politicians

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies." Thomas Jefferson, US President 1801-9.

"When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes. Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain." Napoleon Bonaparte, Emperor of France.

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and the corporations will grow up around them, will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." Thomas Jefferson in the debate over The Re-charter of the Bank Bill (1809).

"Money plays the largest part in determining the course of history." Karl Marx writing in the Communist Manifesto (1848).

"The government should create, issue and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the government and the buying power of consumers. By adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity." Abraham Lincoln, US President 1861-5. He created government issue money during the American Civil War and was assassinated.

"The death of Lincoln was a disaster for Christendom. There was no man in the United States great enough to wear his boots and the bankers went anew to grab the riches. I fear that foreign bankers with their craftiness and tortuous tricks will entirely control the exuberant riches of America and use it to systematically corrupt civilisation." Otto von Bismark (1815-1898), German Chancellor, after the Lincoln assassination.

"That this House considers that the continued issue of all the means of exchange - be they coin, bank-notes or credit, largely passed on by cheques - by private firms as an interest-bearing debt against the public should cease forthwith; that the Sovereign power and duty of issuing money in all forms should be returned to the Crown, then to be put into circulation free of all debt and interest obligations..." Captain Henry Kerby MP, in an Early Day Motion tabled in 1964.

"Banks lend by creating credit. They create the means of payment out of nothing. " Ralph M Hawtry, former Secretary to the Treasury.

"... our whole monetary system is dishonest, as it is debt-based... We did not vote for it. It grew upon us gradually but markedly since 1971 when the commodity-based system was abandoned." The Earl of Caithness, in a speech to the House of Lords, 1997.

Others

"Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal - that there is no human relation between master and slave." Leo Tolstoy, Russian writer.

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and money system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." Henry Ford, founder of the Ford Motor Company.

"The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is, perhaps, the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented. Banks can in fact inflate, mint and un-mint the modern ledger-entry currency." Major L L B Angus.

"The study of money, above all other fields in economics, is one in which complexity is used to disguise truth or to evade truth, not to reveal it. The process by which banks create money is so simple the mind is repelled. With something so important, a deeper mystery seems only decent." John Kenneth Galbraith (1908- ), former professor of economics at Harvard, writing in 'Money: Whence it came, where it went' (1975)

Anders Lindman
02-07-2007, 09:16 AM
Consider house prices: the cost of a family home has essentially trebled since 1997.

That's friggin' outrageous. It shows how only real lasting assets have any substantial value. And maybe even that is only following the inflation, meaning, that investing in funds for example, that statistics say grow much more than the inflation rate, is perhaps in reality growing LESS than the factual inflation. There are lies, damn lies, statistics and the Wall Street Journal. :mad: