I can prove death doesn't exist.

[cleft_asunder]

Not that most people here need proof, I mean it's just so obvious in other ways than I describe here. In fact I've wanted to post this for years but I find it so trivial. But I'm motivated today because it's interesting how simple the "death problem" can be demolished.

We've all heard the (Illuminati implanted) saying, "You only live once." People say it without thinking. Isn't that amazing? If you asked them, "How the fuck do you know?" They wouldn't be able to answer worth a damned. So let's put that on paper. Please get rid of any beliefs you have, and imagine for a moment that you believe that when you die, you will cease to exist. Life is over never to happen again in any form or non-form.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa158/Cleft_Asunder/DeathsDeath.jpg


Above we have a simple picture depicting your life (the black line) and the two circles representing your birth and death. The colored areas (no-thing's) represent ceasing to exist. It is important that you understand that when I use the term no-thing in this post, I am literally refering to NO form of any kind and NO consciousness. Why is there no-thing before you were born? Remember, you believe that you will cease to exist when you die, therefore it would be quite absurd of you to believe that before you were born, you were alive. Therefore, before you were born there exists the same conditions --in fact non-conditions since no-thing (ceasing to exist) has no properties, but we will look at that later-- which exist after you die. In other words, the no-thingness before your birth and after your birth are the exact same thing. how could "they" be different when they don't have properties? This leads me to the main point itself...

...If, after your death you are in the same situation of so-called non-existance as before your death, then the absolute truth is that you will be reborn again. Why? Because you were born out of that no-thingness already. Here you are, you're alive! out of the same no-thing you will go into, you have come out of, for no reason at all. Therefore, that implies you will live forever as one form or another, or as pure consciousness.

Understanding it deeper intellectually.

I tried to explain this in terms the mind could comprehend, but it paints a false picture. And just so you know, we are still placing ourselves into a position where we believe we will cease to exist upon death. The fact of the matter is that there isn't such a "state" such as ceasing to exist. I mentioned before that when I say no-thing, I literally mean no-thing, not even consciousness. How can something that doesn't exist, exist? Do you understand? How can non-existance exist? It is a contradition. Non-existance doesn't exist because it isn't, it hasn't, and it won't. You have some silly mental concept in your head about non-existance. You are thinking non-existance is blackness. Throw that thought away! Throw all thoughts about non-existance away because they are all false. There is nothing to think about.
In fact that's a false statement, there ISN'T no-thing to think about. Do you see yet?

Therefore, the picture above is wrong. There are no properties before and after your death. Redraw the image in your head and delete the orange nothing's. I only drew it so you have a foundation. There is no structure, no time, just absence, and not even that because absence implies fullness. There just isn't. Therefore, when you die, you don't go to some place called no-thing, because if there was a you which goes somewhere, then that isn't no-thing is it? So when you die, there is no period of ceasing to exist because that implies consciousness and time --"Here I am. I'm ceasing to exist for a time." Where does the time come from? If there is a thing to be found what-so-ever, then there is consciousness, because any-thing can only exist if there's a witness. Consciousness is the prerequisite to anything existing. That is logical and is the truth.

So, the death-believe cannot believe in such a thing as ceasing to exist. No-one can, since what is there to believe in? If there was a definition of no-thingness in the dictionary, in place of the definition would be a blank space.

If you still don't understand what I mean, consider this: Your vision isn't 360 degress all around. It has borders up and down, left and right. Now what is beyond our limited vision? What is beyond the edge of your vision? Is there any-thing there? There isn't any-thing there! Focus behind you, there's no-thing! No blackness, no form, nothing to talk about.

Wrapping it all up.

The death-believer doesn't understand the implications of his own belief. If he did, he wouldn't be a death believer since death is impossible. It is impossible because a state of no consciousness and therefore no form doesn't exist. The reason is that ceasing to exist and consciousness are not compatible. Either you have infinite consciousness, or you have infinite no-consciousness. An in-between is impossible. And therefore because we are conscious HERE AND NOW, it is impossible to no longer be conscious. It was never born nor will it ever die. What would be it's threat? No-consciousness doesn't exist to threaten it. And if no-conscousness were possible, it would already be the case right now. This wouldn't be happening right now.

I know this sounds like I'm not making any sense, but I assure you I am. It's difficult to comprehend intellectually even for me.

Next week, we'll destroy the Bible as the word of God using one of the first paragraphs of Genesis. Toodaloo!

[gordonfreeman]

I believe and agree with you, my friend. Your shell dies, but not your soul and conscious.

Yes, your soul cannot perish, but always remain immortal and active. But sometimes your soul might reincarnate into a new life and new body. Mostly human, but sometimes even individual souls in animals. Your soul and conscious can be altered, but cannot be destroyed.

[cleft_asunder]

I believe and agree with you, my friend. Your shell dies, but not your soul and conscious.

Yes, your soul cannot perish, but always remain immortal and active. But sometimes your soul might reincarnate into a new life and new body. Mostly human, but sometimes even individual souls in animals. Your soul and conscious can be altered, but cannot be destroyed.

You don't understand. I'm not talking about personal beliefs here. I'm talking concrete fact. I agree with you, but that isn't part of the topic. This isn't a thread about beliefs, it is about understanding that death is impossible even through athiestic belief because the athiestic belief of death turns on itself, and actually shows that consciousness in some form after death is 100% for eternity. It is about understanding that there is zero evidence in any form for ceasing to exist.

[gordonfreeman]

Do we see humans' souls coming out of their bodies when they die in movies and censored news recorded footage or even pictures?

Death is impossible is a hard word to death fanatics and people who believe they only have 1 life, how immature.

I do know that death doesn't exists, because when our bodies no longer function, our conscious comes out of our body. You see your own deceased body. I even heard that Out-of-body experiences are true, most hospital patients share their story who are in danger of passing.

How about ghosts? Have you ever talked to them before? The so-called dead that haunts many old areas and remain earthbound most of the times. Some deceased people do not know they are dead, because their mundane belief system is still with them after their soul is released. Ghost investigators often answer to them they are indeed long gone. Some ghosts know they are dead, they even explain that "There is no such thing as death!"

I like to share this to you from my favourite werewolf forum. A very intelligent and wonderful thread. http://www.thepacksden.com/thepackboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7367&start=0

[cleft_asunder]

Do we see humans' souls coming out of their bodies when they die in movies and censored news recorded footage or even pictures?

Death is impossible is a hard word to death fanatics and people who believe they only have 1 life, how immature.

I do know that death doesn't exists, because when our bodies no longer function, our conscious comes out of our body. You see your own deceased body. I even heard that Out-of-body experiences are true, most hospital patients share their story who are in danger of passing.

How about ghosts? Have you ever talked to them before? The so-called dead that haunts many old areas and remain earthbound most of the times. Some deceased people do not know they are dead, because their mundane belief system is still with them after their soul is released. Ghost investigators often answer to them they are indeed long gone. Some ghosts know they are dead, they even explain that "There is no such thing as death!"

I like to share this to you from my favourite werewolf forum. A very intelligent and wonderful thread. http://www.thepacksden.com/thepackboard/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7367&start=0

That's beside the point. The title of this post wasn't "find evidence of life after death." The purpose of this post is to prove death is impossible at the most basic level using the intellect.

[gordonfreeman]

Its a complex topic. I shouldn't have rush through the reading......I have to read it again this time slowly.

[cleft_asunder]

Its a complex topic. I shouldn't have rush through the reading......I have to read it again this time slowly.

We all know that life after death exists for other reasons. I am arguing on a different level --the level of an Athiest. Athiests typically believe that we cease to exist when we die. This belief is the most pure form of the belief in death, and I am turning the belief against itself.

Why is it important? Because if we can destroy death on this level --and I have-- then there is no other possibility for it. As I have argued in this post, the belief in ceasing to exist is actually the belief in eternal life.

[sebastian]

One of my childhood dilemmas was not being able to comprehend death. Ceasing to exist just did not make sense to me. Also all the religious bullcrap seemed to contradict itself and to have double standards. Needles to say, I've always searched for answers outside of the box

[akujin]

I may have missed a few points, but isn't this based on the assumption that consciousness(including self awareness) isn't a derivative of the chemical compositions and electrical currents that are found in brains.

Simple to conceptualize. Sensory input = illusionary self-awareness.

I'm in no way an atheist and believe very much in infinite consciousness and the impossibilty of non-existing form. Just adding to the debate. :D:D

[limelady]

I like it cleft!

In a nutshell, by being alive in the NOW you're living proof that there can be no such thing as death or no-thing as you put it...because you had to come from 'some place' and you will be going back to 'some-place' at the other end of your NOW life!

Well done! :D

[Anders Lindman]

Another way of looking at it is that time maybe only exists now. That idea turns our whole ordinary mainstream view upside down and inside out.

Of course there is a past, but that past may only exist now. Time, then, is real, but only as a perspective created now.

With this view you did not exist yesterday, and instead yesterday is 'only' a projection created now! :eek::confused::):D;):cool:

[phonicboom]

I agree with you cleft. I came to my conclusions in the weeks and months after I died 2 years ago.

"Reality exists for precisely as long as you are human; as time is only made by you then;

So you were un-”born” for no “time” and will be “dead” for no “time”.

and wrote a lot of them here thoughts after I died (http://www.chriswilshaw.info/tao-thoughts.html)

I died after not eating for 2 weeks in India and having maybe something like malaria - As you can tell I came back to life (I think i was dead a few minutes) but I had a lot of thoughts after the experience.

Yeah it's obvious it all carries on, we all know someone who died and look, life is still going on.

[Ian2day]

Here's a quotable of mine, death is just another part of life.

[phonicboom]

Not that most people here need proof...

...I know this sounds like I'm not making any sense, but I assure you I am. It's difficult to comprehend intellectually even for me.

great, makes sense to me, much more articulate than i ever put it but i'm with you all the way :)

[magicmerlin]

Great post - something similar to what I have thought about for years (I think, at least!). I'd like to add that it's important to think about the concept of 'nothing' - afterall, what exactly is nothing? Humans seem to first of all imagine nothing as 'blackness', but who said that blackness is nothing, anyway? If blackness is nothing, then surely everything is nothing......NOTHING BUT EVERYTHING. How can you have nothing without everything too? Thus, nothing exists but so does everything - an eternal riddle? I used to almost feel physically sick when I really thought about my existence - how could I be, how can 'anything' exist when there was once 100% nothing - there is only one conceivable answer and that is that nothing is simple impossible. I find the concept of being able to split an atom for infinity to be similarly mind boggling.

[ninja17]

We are dying everyday...The last moment is just finishing the picture.

And if i imagine i would cut my wrists right now and im all running out of blood i just can feel that this is not my end.

:)

[dave52]

you were born out of that no-thingness already.

Just playing Devil's advocate here, this isn't actually true. You weren't born out of nothingness. Your physical body was created when your mother's egg got together with your fathers sperm. Through a chemical process your body grew from your parents. When you get a spot on your face you don't marval at it's creation out of nothingness...

Now your consciousness is a different matter, yes we'd all like to think that we are somehow all connected, infinate love, but it could be possible that what we percieve to be our consciousness, could just be chemical reactions in the brain.

I'm not saying that that is what I believe, as I say - I'm playing Devil's advocate here. If we are just chemical reactions firing in the brain, then when our bodies die, those chemical reactions will cease and we will in fact enter a state of nothingness or non-existance. Although, of course we wouldn't be aware of it.

[element]

Soul/consciousness/god is like the air. It's no shape in itself, but this nothingness is everything.

I'm not afraid of death and have never been since childhood because of oobe experiences. The only thing we could be afraid of is the way we could die...

[phonicboom]

...possible that what we percieve to be our consciousness, could just be chemical reactions in the brain.... If we are just chemical reactions firing in the brain... etc
So for you a body comes first and it gains consciousness - Whereas most of the other posters are seeing consciousness first that leads to so called matter. Which if you give it some thought makes much more sense and is less mechanical.

I would be of the 3rd option of Mutual Arising.

[romas]

It's impossible to comprehend non existance, you can put it in abstract form, but that is not being aware that you do not exist, because it is impossible! If you are aware you exist!

Philosophy of Science

Does the moon exist only when someone is looking at it?

Recently, one of Einstein's young friends, Abraham Pais, reported that round about 1950 Einstein had asked him if he really believed that the moon existed only if he looked at it.

Einstein himself had no doubts as to the answer. In his view the commonsense belief is correct. The moon does exist in objective reality whether or not anyone is observing it.

So why did he ask the question?

He did so because he had long disagreed with a lot of the most important and influential physicists of his time, about the interpretation of that area of physics known as quantum physics that deals with the behaviour of objects in the microphysical, subatomic, world. Many of these physicists were committed to an interpretation from which it follows that nothing - the moon included - exists unless it is being observed. Einstein wanted to know whether Pais was on his side or theirs.


http://www.eequalsmcsquared.auckland.ac.nz/sites/emc2/tl/philosophy/moon.cfm

[dave52]

I would be of the 3rd option of Mutual Arising.

Yes I think that's probably where I am too, otherwise we'd know everything as soon as we came into physical existance, which we don't. I was playing Devil's advocate because, to say we were born from nothing isn't true. Our physical selves grew from a chemical fusion of our parents.

[romas]

Why would atoms and sub-atomic particles agree to join together to experience themselves subjectively?

Is universe mearly looking at itself through us? Or does this universe help us as bodyless consciousness to look at it through universal solid body and senses?

Some 'facts'

Three-hundred-million cells die in the human body every minute.
Humans have 46 chromosomes, peas have 14 and crayfish have 200.
Every square inch of the human body has an average of 32 million bacteria on it.
An individual blood cell takes about 60 seconds to make a complete circuit of the body.
A human being loses an average of 40 to 100 strands of hair a day.
Humans shed about 600,000 particles of skin every hour - about 1.5 pounds a year. By 70 years of age, an average person will have lost 105 pounds of skin.

http://www.corsinet.com/trivia/h-triv.html

That site also has some other 'facts' like:
Every human spent about half an hour as a single cell.
Babies are born with 300 bones, but by adulthood we have only 206 in our bodies.

Now, are you as a mind your body or are you just mearly using it to 'travel' if you are your body, you die every minute. It's been proven brain cells die to.

[romas]

Another way of looking at it is that time maybe only exists now. That idea turns our whole ordinary mainstream view upside down and inside out.

Of course there is a past, but that past may only exist now. Time, then, is real, but only as a perspective created now.

With this view you did not exist yesterday, and instead yesterday is 'only' a projection created now! :eek::confused::):D;):cool:



There is no such thing as time, I said that at fith grade not knowing wtf I just said to my teacher :D I still hold to it!
We invented time to help us progress technologically.

[romas]

If you are just sub-atomic particles and those particles are timeless and indestructable as energy is eternal, it never ceases to exit, in scientific terms you are eternal, you only change form.

[phonicboom]

I'm not sure if this is the place to say it, but it feels sort of relevant... People who say their body dies but "their" consciousness carries on - I have a different viewpoint that there is no personal consciousness that is within us, made by us, or so on - only one consciousness which we are all a part of and sharing, so that is how it survives death.

"By having no finite self it remains infinite" to quote a certain Mr Tzu

[Anders Lindman]

There is no such thing as time, I said that at fith grade not knowing wtf I just said to my teacher :D I still hold to it!
We invented time to help us progress technologically.

Time as change is real. Even the past and future are real even if all of the past and future is squeezed into the now so to speak.

There is also change of the body. Complex molecules such as proteins are being destroyed, and even many whole cells are being destroyed moment by moment as you pointed out. One interesting thing is that atoms are not destroyed! The body is just a heap of atoms, so there is no reason why the body should gradually be destroyed other than the fact that molecules fall apart more easily than atoms. The body is like a biological machine, but it's a self-repairing kind of machine. I see great potential for improving the health of the body tremendously, either by advanced technology/medicine or by conscious awareness or both. :)

[romas]

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa158/Cleft_Asunder/DeathsDeath.jpg




Your picture can also represent the 'begining' and the 'end' of this universe :)

[dark86]

this is a really good post,

hey can i use it for a blog?

[smariot]

I mean, what have you got to lose? You know, you come from nothing, you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!
-- Pretty much the last thing said in 'Life of Brian'.

[rossus]

I may have missed a few points, but isn't this based on the assumption that consciousness(including self awareness) isn't a derivative of the chemical compositions and electrical currents that are found in brains. It is about understanding that there is zero evidence in any form for ceasing to exist.
yes... so according to cleft there is zero evidence for ceasing to exist, fair enough.

cleft's reasoning for "there is no death" though,
seems to be based on the idea that consciousness is not a product by the brain.

which facts are there to prove that this is really the case, cleft?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~

i mean,
i like the Nisargadatta or RamanaMaharshi-style of referring to the true-self as not the body or mind,
but rather as "pure-awareness beyond time and beyond space" (so also beyond form)


even though in that state of "self-realization" there is no longer the experience of being "just the body"...
and there is the experience of being "the self" (a.k.a. pure awareness).

even though the characteristics of being in this state, seems to be one of desirelessness/fearlessness/being filled with happiness, peace and love.
for me still, their way of explaining... is just a language, a way to explain meditation... a way of being.


i love this state of being, this form of meditation a lot...
but according to my knowledge there is no proof that "the self" or this "pure timeless awareness" is not a product of the brain.

myself,
i do not believe that "the self" is eternal...
neither do i believe that "the self" is a product of the temporary brain.
i don't know :)

but i do know that i prefer to experience myself as "the self",
than as the "body/mind"...

because the meditative way of being is full of "love & happiness".
I'm not sure if this is the place to say it, but it feels sort of relevant... People who say their body dies but "their" consciousness carries on - I have a different viewpoint that there is no personal consciousness that is within us, made by us, or so on - only one consciousness which we are all a part of and sharing, so that is how it survives death.

"By having no finite self it remains infinite" to quote a certain Mr Tzu
it is probably the right place.

because going by the characteristics of "being one with tao" described in the tao te ching,
to me they seem to be the exact same characteristics experienced as being "self-realized" Nisargadatta or RamanaMaharshi-style.

the difference is that the tao teh ching explains it in a language that differs a bit from theirs.

i don't know much about taoism,
and as far as i know there is many forms of it which have different practices and different beliefs...
as there are many differing forms of buddhism or hinduism.



my opinion may very well be biased,
but from my limited encounters with buddhism and taoism...

to me,
the most simple & the least complexified method...
so at the same time perhaps the most practical & effective method
for "attaining self-realization" or "being one with the tao" seems to be..

the method of "self-inquiry" which was being taught by for example Nisargadatta...
(or alternatively by Ramana Maharshi).

their ways of explaining probably have some small flaws as well though,
but this is not a real problem...

because (in my opinion) they do a great job at explaining how to "do" meditation,
which is what is most important...

as it is the correct practice of meditation,
which leads to "nirvana", "tao-realization", "self-realization"... however one wants to call it.

[pduffy4]

Just playing Devil's advocate here, this isn't actually true. You weren't born out of nothingness. Your physical body was created when your mother's egg got together with your fathers sperm. Through a chemical process your body grew from your parents. When you get a spot on your face you don't marval at it's creation out of nothingness...

Now your consciousness is a different matter, yes we'd all like to think that we are somehow all connected, infinate love, but it could be possible that what we percieve to be our consciousness, could just be chemical reactions in the brain.

I'm not saying that that is what I believe, as I say - I'm playing Devil's advocate here. If we are just chemical reactions firing in the brain, then when our bodies die, those chemical reactions will cease and we will in fact enter a state of nothingness or non-existance. Although, of course we wouldn't be aware of it.

I know you are playing Devil's advocate but perhaps yop'd like to read a book called "The Biology of Belief" by Bruce Lipton. The Biology of Belief: Unleashing the Power of Consciousness, Matter and Miracles: Amazon.co.uk: Bruce H. Lipton: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GBYStrQLL.@@AMEPARAM@@51GBYStrQLL

You can't create any kind of physical body without a body soul which you get from both parents. Biology is what you get in a petri dish, just a mush of cells IMHO.

[cleft_asunder]

Great post - something similar to what I have thought about for years (I think, at least!). I'd like to add that it's important to think about the concept of 'nothing' - afterall, what exactly is nothing? Humans seem to first of all imagine nothing as 'blackness', but who said that blackness is nothing, anyway? If blackness is nothing, then surely everything is nothing......NOTHING BUT EVERYTHING. How can you have nothing without everything too? Thus, nothing exists but so does everything - an eternal riddle? I used to almost feel physically sick when I really thought about my existence - how could I be, how can 'anything' exist when there was once 100% nothing - there is only one conceivable answer and that is that nothing is simple impossible. I find the concept of being able to split an atom for infinity to be similarly mind boggling.

That, too, is true. Well said. Essentially, if there is 100% nothing (no consciousness therefore no form) then it is impossible for some-thing to happen. What would there be to make it happen? That is eternal death. Therefore, such a no-thing has never existed because if it did, we wouldn't be here now. And conversely because we are here now, that in itself is proof that we have been alive infinitely backwards.

[cleft_asunder]

I'm not saying that that is what I believe, as I say - I'm playing Devil's advocate here. If we are just chemical reactions firing in the brain, then when our bodies die, those chemical reactions will cease and we will in fact enter a state of nothingness or non-existance. Although, of course we wouldn't be aware of it.

I don't think you read the post, because that is the level at which I have proved death doesn't exist.

[danster82]

This is great stuff its the type of thinking you have as a kid and you forget to think about such things when you get older but I understand what your saying and Ive personal gained new knowledge to expand on the concept via my teacher.

For example this nothingness which isnt, is not an opposite to God its nothing, God is everything that exists, the best description in words for God or reality simply is "IS" and also combining the two gives a God name ISIS which is probably the reason for the Egyptian Goddess name.

So Darkness is not a substance it has no force on light. Even on a physical level if you shone a light on your hand and projected a shadow on the wall and asked a scientis to tell you everything about the shadow all its properties what its made of and so on they would simply come to conclusion that nothing is there to measure its simply the absence of light and yet you can still observe and see the shadow as if it was real.

And so from this you can get a good understanding of the nature of Evil, because there is a common belief that evil is some type of opposite to Good or God is in opposition to the Devil or the Yin is in opposition to the Yang which is not true, there is only Good and all manifestation of evil are simply the absence of God, the darkness within right? Thats what the darkness is, the illusion in your mind where you do not know the truth which is the light which is all that is...

If you think about all evil and it cause it starts in the mind via a choice the choice is based on a lack of knowledge, knowledge is simply an understanding of what IS i.e God if you lack that inner light you will make choices out of alignment with reality and it will manifest itself as what we term as evil and yet that evil is simply the shadow we spoke of before which is ultimately unreal and when we bring the light it will vanish.

And you can give yourself examples by taking evil acts or concepts tracing it back in thought and realizing it was simply a choice made in ignorance that lead to it, to take it even one step further back from that the original ignorance came from pride of thinking you know better than God which is all that IS which is impossible and yet it seems thats what happened...

[cleft_asunder]

Yes I think that's probably where I am too, otherwise we'd know everything as soon as we came into physical existance, which we don't. I was playing Devil's advocate because, to say we were born from nothing isn't true. Our physical selves grew from a chemical fusion of our parents.

You are defining "we" as a human being. You were playing devil's advocate suggesting that consciousness springs out of a human, and when that human dies, the consciousness goes with it. I'm not here to argue that that's not the case. Most of us know that already. I am here to argue that there is zero evidence to death, and that all evidence for death turns against itself, reinforcing the idea of eternal life.

You were talking biologically. What does it matter if at one point you were say... a sperm? How does that change anything? Does the Athiest --who believes he will cease to exist upon the physical bodies death-- also believe that he was alive through some biological form before his current consciousness as a human such as a sperm, bacteria, et cetera? Don't you see what that implies? If biological life = consciousness, then this is contradictory to his belief that he will cease to exist upon death, since biology goes on and therefore he will be consciouss. If biology is what brought him to his current state as a conscious human, and because biology goes on forward through time, then he will not cease to be conscious upon death.

I know you're confused and so am I, and it isn't because we aren't smart enough it's because the idea that biology = consciousness is so baseless and absurd that you can't effectively play devil's advocate. I mean where do you draw the line in regards to consciousness forming out of biology? As a human, we aren't some concrete thing, we are a bunch of living organisms moving around! Every 7 years the body is completely NEW, therefore you are a different person every 7 years. Therefore this consciousness which springs for out of supposed biology, well it's not too picky is it? You are quintessentially always the same as you always were, despite MASSIVE changes in your biology which are happening all the time.

But the bottom line to this biology thing is this: Because you are alive now, that is proof that you will be alive later. The argument doesn't change. (See original point)

There is no point in playing devil's advocate. The original post was me playing devil's advocate with myself, adopting the worst case scenario view that I will cease to exist upon death.

[cleft_asunder]

this is a really good post,

hey can i use it for a blog?

Sure!

[cleft_asunder]

I mean, what have you got to lose? You know, you come from nothing, you're going back to nothing. What have you lost? Nothing!
-- Pretty much the last thing said in 'Life of Brian'.

Ahhh interesting. At first I thought they were implying that you will never be alive again after death, but no, they have reached the same conclusion! Fantastic.

I'm telling you, there is no evidence for death. Not a single thing.

[Anders Lindman]

I feel there is a lot of energy in the thought about death. The problem is that the energy is trapped within an eggshell of fear. That eggshell, that fear, the fear related to death, has to be torn down, crushed, melted down and dissolved and thereby the energy being trapped will be released and become useful. :cool:

[cleft_asunder]

yes... so according to cleft there is zero evidence for ceasing to exist, fair enough.

cleft's reasoning for "there is no death" though,
seems to be based on the idea that consciousness is not a product by the brain.

which facts are there to prove that this is really the case, cleft?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~



It's impossible for the brain to give rise to consciousness, because the brain can only exist if there is a witness. The brain (and all form) can only exist if it was created. Only "aliveness" can create. How can death (non-existence) create? Here, we have forms. We have our bodies, our brain, our minds, and the universe. Where did it come from? Did it come from non-existence? How can forms come out of something which doesn't exist? If non-existence is the case, then non-existence would be the case forever and we and all forms wouldn't be here, period. But because we are here, then that imples an aliveness, something which is intelligent and can create. There is no in between. There is either infinite non-existence, or there is infinite existence, and the later is obvously the truth because we are alive now. Because how can non-existence create form? How can non-existence create the multiverse? No matter how you cut it, the foundation of form can only be consciousness. Consciousness (life, intelligence) is the prerequisite for anything to exist.

Also, even if we set aside what I just said, your argument still can't hold water. Infinite life is STILL the case. Go look at the monty python quote above. (which is my original post summed up in one sentence)

I am not arguing particulars here, I am focused on the whole. I am focused on the deepest level. If at the deepest level it makes no sense, then the small parts will not fit.

[cleft_asunder]

This is great stuff its the type of thinking you have as a kid and you forget to think about such things when you get older but I understand what your saying and Ive personal gained new knowledge to expand on the concept via my teacher.

For example this nothingness which isnt, is not an opposite to God its nothing, God is everything that exists, the best description in words for God or reality simply is "IS" and also combining the two gives a God name ISIS which is probably the reason for the Egyptian Goddess name.

So Darkness is not a substance it has no force on light. Even on a physical level if you shone a light on your hand and projected a shadow on the wall and asked a scientis to tell you everything about the shadow all its properties what its made of and so on they would simply come to conclusion that nothing is there to measure its simply the absence of light and yet you can still observe and see the shadow as if it was real.

And so from this you can get a good understanding of the nature of Evil, because there is a common belief that evil is some type of opposite to Good or God is in opposition to the Devil or the Yin is in opposition to the Yang which is not true, there is only Good and all manifestation of evil are simply the absence of God, the darkness within right? Thats what the darkness is, the illusion in your mind where you do not know the truth which is the light which is all that is...

If you think about all evil and it cause it starts in the mind via a choice the choice is based on a lack of knowledge, knowledge is simply an understanding of what IS i.e God if you lack that inner light you will make choices out of alignment with reality and it will manifest itself as what we term as evil and yet that evil is simply the shadow we spoke of before which is ultimately unreal and when we bring the light it will vanish.

And you can give yourself examples by taking evil acts or concepts tracing it back in thought and realizing it was simply a choice made in ignorance that lead to it, to take it even one step further back from that the original ignorance came from pride of thinking you know better than God which is all that IS which is impossible and yet it seems thats what happened...

I agree except for the blackness part. Blackness isn't pure no-thing. Blackness is form --it is color. They say that black isn't a color, but what does it matter if that's the case? Black EXISTS and can be PERCEIVED therefore it is form.

If you want to know what no-thing looks like, focus beyond the borders of your vision. There, there isn't.

[cleft_asunder]

I agree with you cleft. I came to my conclusions in the weeks and months after I died 2 years ago.



and wrote a lot of them here thoughts after I died (http://www.chriswilshaw.info/tao-thoughts.html)

I died after not eating for 2 weeks in India and having maybe something like malaria - As you can tell I came back to life (I think i was dead a few minutes) but I had a lot of thoughts after the experience.

Yeah it's obvious it all carries on, we all know someone who died and look, life is still going on.

Reading it now, thanks. Yeah, I'm very familiar with the stuff written in there. Consciousness is infinite and is the soil out of which the multiverse exists. The multiverse is like the body of God, but it does not need to exist. In other words, it isn't a prerequisite for God's existence. Well, there's a lot to write on it but I don't want to get into it now.

[emanuel]

Consciousness is not a product of the brain.

The mind controls the body not vice versa (important note, the brain is part of the body, the part the mind works through)

I agree with the point you are trying to hammer home cleft. :cool:

[rossus]

...
first of all,
this is kind of a difficult subject which seems to personally
go further than my intellectual understanding can reach..

but in the post below,
i have done some mental hocus pocus myself.
hocus pocus which probably contains errors...

but whatever.
feel free to read it, or ignore it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

well,
if you're saying "i am not the body"...

then the death of the body does indeed not mean the death of you.
in this case though,
the body being alive does not mean that you are more alive either!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

do you feel hurt when the body is in pain?
do you feel hungry when the body hasn't had food in a while?

if the answers to these questions are "yes",
then you experience yourself as a body which is alive,

and this experience of being alive as a body will obviously have an end.



i think that...
in a human being,
whenever the experience of " I exist " arises,
with the emphasis on I... this automatically means me, the body.

i mean that in a human being,
there is nothing which experiences itself as "myself".. "me".. "i"
besides the "self-awareness" (the mind experiencing itself as the body)



so if you was to say about yourself,
that "you can not die".

then basically you are kind of lying to yourself,
because saying something about yourself...
means you experience yourself as the body/mind.

which is is a finite experience,
the beginning of this experience is called birth
and the ending is called death.

so i think that,
when someone says "soon or later i am going to die... and i only live once", he's not lying :p *

because the self-awareness or "I" resides in the brain of the body.
my self-awareness is not the same as yours, vice versa.

* unless there is such thing as reincarnation of the individual identity,
something which i personally do not believe in.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

but yes in a philosophical sense,
if you mean "i am not the body"...
then there is indeed no death.

but life still is, and pain still is.
your experience of it is the proof of this,
and death ** will be the end of this experience !

** death as in... physical death of the body,
or meditation ("self realization") while the body is still alive :D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

if my understanding about the above matter is correct,
does this mean that when Nisargadatta or Ramana Maharshi talked,
they experienced themselves as the body?

i think so yes!
because without being identified with the body/mind,
one is not able to use it. and using it means experiencing oneself as it...
and thus feeling "happy" when there is pleasure... and feeling "unhappy" when there is pain.



although,
the experience of being "pure awareness" can be simultaneous
with the experience of being the body...

in other words, it is possible to work with the body and mind while being in meditation ("being enlightened").
for example it is possible to "talk" while experiencing the effects of "enlightenment".

but to experience the full effects, to experience complete liberation...
to no longer experience oneself as the body for the least bit...

then i guess that "full meditation" is required.
this is where one stops moving & stops talking...
and this is what Ramana Maharshi called "resting in the self".

(if you remember that Youtube vid..
where Ramana Maharshi was filmed laying on the couch...
or was it sitting on the chair and not moving at all...
that is when he was doing "full meditation" which he called "resting in the self".)



so even Ramana Himself still practiced fullon meditation,
without meditation, no enlightenment!

more meditation, more enlightenment.
less meditation, more mindstuff.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*edit* in this post i have forgotten to mention that the experience of the "enlightened" person
who knows himself as "the self", "the tao" or "pure awareness" however one wants to call it,

may still be a finite one created by the brain... and as you can probably guess,
i suspect it to be so! but i do not believe it to be so, as i am not completely certain...

and i don't feel like i need to know for certain either,
because meditation works in makin' me happy... so it's not necessary to know every little detail of the universe.


*edit #2* my apologies for this ramble, i have probably made a lot of confusion and very little sense http://www.theregister.co.uk/Design/graphics/icons/comment/alert_48.png

[rossus]

I agree with you cleft. I came to my conclusions in the weeks and months after I died 2 years ago.



and wrote a lot of them here thoughts after I died (http://www.chriswilshaw.info/tao-thoughts.html)

I died after not eating for 2 weeks in India and having maybe something like malaria - As you can tell I came back to life (I think i was dead a few minutes) but I had a lot of thoughts after the experience.

Yeah it's obvious it all carries on, we all know someone who died and look, life is still going on.
if the heart stops beating for only a couple of minutes,
and you are "officially dead"...

then the brain is probably still active.
i guess there can still be self-consciousness happening in the brain at that time.

after about 15 (or perhaps a bit more, i'm not sure) minutes of being deprived of oxygen,
large numbers of brain cells start to die...



i didn't read "thoughts after i died",
but i can imagine that near-death-experience... or in your case beyond-death-experience :p...
can be pretty cosmic and spiritual...

but like i said, this experience could very well have been created by the brain still.

[megafish33]

Death may or may not exist but the reason we have the word "death" is because we use it to describe something that humanity has observed since the beginning of time.

I think the glimpse humans get of universal conscience awareness is very rare and not many attain what people who regularly meditate experience because "conscienceness" itself is still a baby... oh, and it also evolves. ;) Not a bad thing, we can help out. :)

And I don't think living as if this was it has to be a prison, it can be very liberating. You have to work at creating a beautiful day and savoring it. When and if you die, yeah, you might have some transitional awareness into bliss-it's possible, but I think there is a very real possibility that you'll stop holding on to "John" or "Sarah" or "Mohammad" because most of it is just brain magic-part of the body. That, or "you" become a tree and won't be able to play PlayStation 12.

[danster82]

I agree except for the blackness part. Blackness isn't pure no-thing. Blackness is form --it is color. They say that black isn't a color, but what does it matter if that's the case? Black EXISTS and can be PERCEIVED therefore it is form.

If you want to know what no-thing looks like, focus beyond the borders of your vision. There, there isn't.

I did say "even" on a physical level its a physical example as a mean to express what im saying its not the best example as the topic relates more to nonphysical but you are wrong about the blackness it is nothing, the fact you can see the shadow is the dillema its the same way you come to see an illusion in your mind as being real... so do you understand what im pointing to here?
The darkness creates the shadows in your mind which are the illusions so you see them as you see a shadow and think its real as you think a shadow is real from your reply so your entire reality is filled with these illusions in your mind as Buddhism talks about

[gbarnard]

I did say "even" on a physical level its a physical example as a mean to express what im saying its not the best example as the topic relates more to nonphysical but you are wrong about the blackness it is nothing, the fact you can see the shadow is the dillema its the same way you come to see an illusion in your mind as being real... so do you understand what im pointing to here?
The darkness creates the shadows in your mind which are the illusions so you see them as you see a shadow and think its real as you think a shadow is real from your reply so your entire reality is filled with these illusions in your mind as Buddhism talks about

It's been explained to me that black is the 'absence of color' and white is all colors

[Anders Lindman]

I like to investigate the possibility of the physical body not dying. For me, if the physical body dies, then that is death even if we keep on living in some other realm or reincarnate here on Earth or on some other planet. That option just sucks. Why the need for physical death? For animals this has been useful, but we humans are supposed to be more than mere animals I think.

To paraphrase David Icke: Do you think the Infinite needs to die a physical death?

[noobcybot]

I adhere to a law of opposites also. What I would like to know from you guys is, does the Ying/Yang law of opposing forces manifesting creation aplly to all of consciosness, or just our Earth incarnation reality? I hear this "as above, so below" quote a lot, is the law of opposites the driving force from the widest picture to the tiniest detail?
I generally like to think that when we die we are actually reaching the middle point between these forces, the balance which might the point of pure creational power where all reality is formed. I still think it possible a vibrational scale, from the low hell dimension to the high vibration god consciousness or heaven. I think it also realistic that this Earth incarnation and universe is just part of this vibrational scale.

[Anders Lindman]

I adhere to a law of opposites also. What I would like to know from you guys is, does the Ying/Yang law of opposing forces manifesting creation aplly to all of consciosness, or just our Earth incarnation reality? I hear this "as above, so below" quote a lot, is the law of opposites the driving force from the widest picture to the tiniest detail?
I generally like to think that when we die we are actually reaching the middle point between these forces, the balance which might the point of pure creational power where all reality is formed. I still think it possible a vibrational scale, from the low hell dimension to the high vibration god consciousness or heaven. I think it also realistic that this Earth incarnation and universe is just part of this vibrational scale.

The world we live in at the moment is very dense, but there is also evolution going on which I believe includes an influx of higher and higher vibrations. That's why I don't believe dying a physical death is needed in order to reach higher levels of being. This world and this universe is my home and I want to stay for at least several hundreds of years as evolution continues.

[cleft_asunder]

but like i said, this experience could very well have been created by the brain still.

Besides the point that the idea of consciousness being the product of form (the brain) is impossible, it doesn't change the argument I have in any way.

[cleft_asunder]

I did say "even" on a physical level its a physical example as a mean to express what im saying its not the best example as the topic relates more to nonphysical but you are wrong about the blackness it is nothing, the fact you can see the shadow is the dillema its the same way you come to see an illusion in your mind as being real... so do you understand what im pointing to here?
The darkness creates the shadows in your mind which are the illusions so you see them as you see a shadow and think its real as you think a shadow is real from your reply so your entire reality is filled with these illusions in your mind as Buddhism talks about

Illusions are real. If an illusion happends, it happends because consciousness is there to witness it. Therefore, if a thing is witnessed by consciousness, it is real in the sense that it exists. Blackness is a form because it is an external thing which can be perceived by consciousness. There is nothing going on outside of consciousness. Or more specifically, "there is nowhere where it is not."

Still not convinced? Compare blackness to what's beyond your field of vision.

You use the word illusion without understanding what it is. There is no such thing as illusion technically speaking. There is only consciousness, and form. And that is reality. If you had to define what illusion is, then consciousness is reality and form (the multiverse) is illusion, or the dream of God you could say. But even form is real in the sense that it exists because consciousness is conscious of it. Also, it is a paradox. On one hand, the multiverse is God (consciousness), and on the other hand it is a dream. But how can the dream be seperate from God? It comes out of God, therefore it is God, yet it isn't.

[phoebe]

I love you cleft :)
Death certainly cannot exist.
The universe is consciousness made manifest (existence)
therefore there cannot exist within it a state
of unconsciousness (nonexistence).
There might be a universe somewhere which is
made of unconsciousness, but of course it wouldn't
exist, because if it did, that would mean there was
something to be conscious of it existing which would
bring it into conscious existence...
Death cannot exist because death implies unconsciousness,
and unless consciousness is present, there is no existence.

[phonicboom]

I adhere to a law of opposites also. What I would like to know from you guys is, does the Ying/Yang law of opposing forces manifesting creation aplly to all of consciosness, or just our Earth incarnation reality? ...
[cut]
... actually reaching the middle point between these forces, the balance which might the point of pure creational power where all reality is formed.

tie your two ideas together and you get a little closer. Yin and Yang are not opposite like two different things but just recognisable aspects of the one thing, that creative power you mentioned. There are no real opposites and that is why we get in such battles with our reasoning.

We come to the idea of death by having life, the idea of happy by having sad. Infact all are aspects of the one, limited by language. You are never 100% anything, even some say, living is slowly dying (a bit morbid but explanatory only). Up is known by down but neither are anything by themselves.

or something like that ;)

[phonicboom]

quote:
It’s actually a ‘wolf in sheep’s clothing’ that death would be a drawn out affair ‘until the end of time itself’. The wolf is that fallacy and derives from the ‘life’ side of the equation having that wolf dressed as a cute sheep, as the vivid illusion, ‘time’; so leading to you perceiving false concepts of death as relative to that ‘time illusion’, which at its worst, can seem to drag.

[danster82]

Illusions are real. If an illusion happends, it happends because consciousness is there to witness it. Therefore, if a thing is witnessed by consciousness, it is real in the sense that it exists. Blackness is a form because it is an external thing which can be perceived by consciousness. There is nothing going on outside of consciousness. Or more specifically, "there is nowhere where it is not."

Still not convinced? Compare blackness to what's beyond your field of vision.

You use the word illusion without understanding what it is. There is no such thing as illusion technically speaking. There is only consciousness, and form. And that is reality. If you had to define what illusion is, then consciousness is reality and form (the multiverse) is illusion, or the dream of God you could say. But even form is real in the sense that it exists because consciousness is conscious of it. Also, it is a paradox. On one hand, the multiverse is God (consciousness), and on the other hand it is a dream. But how can the dream be seperate from God? It comes out of God, therefore it is God, yet it isn't.

No cleft your not getting it, listen to eckhart tolle again

[red_ram]

I agree.



Next week, we'll destroy the Bible as the word of God using one of the first paragraphs of Genesis. Toodaloo!

Sounds like a plan.:cool:

[megafish33]

Besides the point that the idea of consciousness being the product of form (the brain) is impossible, it doesn't change the argument I have in any way.

:eek: lol What?


The consciousness "out there" might be different to the one "down here in Cleft"... How do you know? Perhaps, the one out there was in need of human experience... with it's brain and all? What if it's part of the process?

[supertzar]

What if an individual is born out of the "no-thingness" only once? That underminds your whole argument.

[danster82]

What if an individual is born out of the "no-thingness" only once? That underminds your whole argument.

But thats where youve misunderstood what hes saying you cant be born out of it only once otherwise you would have to logically conclude you were born out of nothing(once) which turns the atheist argument on its head. once you grasp it, it means you were never born and you never die because the middle section with the line is the only section that exists.

feel it out :)

[dave52]

Besides the point that the idea of consciousness being the product of form (the brain) is impossible

Again, I'm playing Devil's advocate here, but - how can you possibly know this...?

Trust me, I am a spiritual person, and I have had out-of-body experiences. Something, deep down, tells me there is more to life than just synapses firing, but really. How do you know this...?

[shankara]

How can forms come out of something which doesn't exist? If non-existence is the case, then non-existence would be the case forever and we and all forms wouldn't be here, period. But because we are here, then that implies an aliveness, something which is intelligent and can create. There is no in between. There is either infinite non-existence, or there is infinite existence, and the later is obviously the truth because we are alive now. Because how can non-existence create form?

Bizarre, I've been pondering this same concept over the past few days. I was thinking about the concept of nothingness, and if there could be anywhere in the universe (black holes or in areas of the universe yet to be explored) where there is nothingness. I decided there could not be, because even if a black hole was completely void of matter and particles, it would still be confined to a dimension, to limitations (it isn't unlimited nothingness, because we know from our own existence that there is being). Black holes even have laws of thermodynamics that apply to them. Wouldn't true nothingness be devoid of concept and quality, unable to be limited or constricted by laws of existence?

I think "nothing" is just a concept that has been invented to describe lack ("What did you do today?" "Nothing.") but in reality non-existence cannot be, for to be is to exist. To me it seems like an illogical concept: The existence of non-existence, or a equals not a.

I found this a few days ago on another forum, it seems to be in line with what you're saying (or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?):

*******
QUOTE:
The argument is summed up as follows:

Something must be eternal
If nothing is eternal then all is temporal
If all is temporal then all had a beginning
If all had a beginning then being(existence) came into being from non-being(nothingness)
Being from non-being(existence from nothingness) is absurd. It is logically impossible.
This is sufficient to prove that something must be eternal.

If the temporal exists then it logically must derive its existence from the eternal(logically prior)
Therefore the eternal created the temporal.
What is eternal is outside of time by definition, immaterial(as the qualities of matter cannot contain the qualities of the infinite, i.e. infinite size can not exist , etc) and created time and the temporal world.

Conclusion: God defined as an eternal creator spirit must exist.

http://forums.philosophyforums.com/threads/proof-for-the-existence-of-god-30588.html.
*******

What do you think? By spirit it could mean inclusive of but not restricted to the physical world. Actually, I think this would have to be the case, because infinite meaning absolute, or "one without a second," an infinite god/consciousness must necessarily include everything in existence, including the physical world.

[supertzar]

I don't think anyone argues that people are born out of nothingness, anyway, do they? Physically, we are born from the combination of sperm and egg. That is not nothing.

[phonicboom]

Bizarre, I've been pondering this same concept over the past few days.

If you let your mind go and don't hold on to logic and laws you have been told are real and true you can get to time not even existing - it being a tool for us only. If you showed a cave man a watch he would find it absurd and your proof of time would fail on him. Once you have time not even existing, past and future as projections of the mind. then even NOW becomes an absurdity built on those two things you just discounted - so even now does not exist as it has nothing to relatively exist from. So eternity has no time, now has no time it is all projections of our mind (very useful ones i must add ;) ) but constructs of ours only.

It puts all the other theories to one side. and I find at that point in the mediation you get a blissful feeling. You accept that a mind that is made of all of this can not fathom itself, the rules we use are inadequate and unsuitable as they are made from illusion and relativity to us. At that point of non-understanding you get to the "focusing on what is behind your head" true nothingness, no rules, no why? when? how? just acceptance of the fact of thusness, isness, Tao.

or something ;)

[daytimetwilight]

Either you have infinite consciousness, or you have infinite no-consciousness. An in-between is impossible. And therefore because we are conscious HERE AND NOW, it is impossible to no longer be conscious. It was never born nor will it ever die. What would be it's threat? No-consciousness doesn't exist to threaten it. And if no-conscousness were possible, it would already be the case right now. This wouldn't be happening right now.




I was lost until you said that. Too many words. That makes sense.

The thing is, is most people don't care about consciousness. If they don't exist in the body they currently inhabit, they consider that death.


Stay brutal.

[pierre_jean]

We are the ghost in the Shell.
It is all the nuance, I think, to understand that death is a nonsense :D

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4135/ghostintheshellfront493bo0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[drael]

I understand where u come from. When we are born we come from "no place", and yet we exist. There is really no reason to expect that cant happen again.