Understanding what New Age is.

[cleft_asunder]

I don't normally like to clear up disinformation on here, since it generally turns out to be stressful and burdening, and within a month it's forgetten. But regardless, I'll do it anyway because I can. It's amazing how much ignorance on the subject of the New Age there is. Lots of rebellious tough talk coming from certain individuals, but they always betray their ignorance by failing to point out the truth that has been burried within the New Age movment. Obviously, if they could point out the truth, then they wouldn't be making the amateurish posts typically seen.

In order for you to understand what the truth isn't in the New Age movement, I will tell you what the truth is. You are probably expecting some long article, or much technical jargon but the reality is that ultimate truth is simple not complex, and that is what the New Age seeks to do: To bury the simple truth with complexity.

The simple truth within the New Age is meditation. Not mind-meditation but real meditation. Real meditation has nothing to do with telepathy, channeling, out of body experience, ascending, chakras, visualization, reality creation, soul, et cetera. These things have NOTHING --not a single thing-- to do with spirituality, because spirituality IS meditation, and real meditation has nothing to do with using your mind. You cannot find your spirit through your mind. Meditation simply means to stop using the mind, and to be present. Like the word God, the word meditation is corrupt. The New Age calls mind-meditation meditation, but they are totally different. It just looks the same on the outside to a passer-by.

All the abilities I just mentioned are things you can learn by doing certain mind-practices (mind-meditation if you will), and the result of these techniques are fruits that are egoic in nature. That is to say, they pertain to the individual vehicle, the space suit. It's not above the multiverse it's of it. In the New Age, pride develops when one learns something others cannot do, and this is how false-guru's are created. For example, let's say you learn telepathy, would you not feel prideful and better than the rest? That is why we see so much egoism in the New Age, because it is anti-spiritual. These mind tricks that you learn aren't bad in themselves, they are only bad when the individual doesn't have spirituality upon which to errect his towers.

So within the New Age, like most religions, is that buried truth: Meditation, which is spirituality. The key to the spirit. Extremely simple. All that meditation asks of the individual is to silence the mind, and out of that will spring forth peace, joy, eventually genuine love, and ultimately bliss. If you run into a teaching that is more complex than this, or which asks you to focus on your mind, then you must understand that it isn't meditation nor spirituality.

So what is the New Age then? It is everything else other than real meditation which proclaims itself as spirituality. Now, don't get the impression that the New Age is BAD, because there are many truths in it. But they aren't spiritual truths, they are truths pertaining to the multiverse and the mind. And, there is much disinformation in it. The controllers manipulate the New Age into a direction in which it leads people astray by replacing their spirituality with filler. For example, a group of individuals listening to Eckhart Tolle speak and a group of individuals gathered around a false guru look the same on the outside, but one deals with spirituality and the other deals with filler. One group is genuinly spiritual while the other group has spiritual lack and are moving further from spirituality. The first group doesn't worship Tolle, while the second group is in awe of the false guru. Tolle teaches us to look within ourselves and to find happiness and peace within, while the false guru loves the attention he's getting. The reality is that these people are as different as night and day and it is very easy to know who is false and who isn't.

There is meditation, and everything else other than that is information. Meditation is spirituality, and information is mind. And it's no more complicated than that. Anyone who proclaims to teach you spirituality will teach you to look within yourself and to be your own guru, and will not accept your worshipping of them.

[eternal_spirit]

Interesting post cleft.

A magazine was published and pushed by the Scottish rite Freemasons called the "New Age." The Lucis trust formerly the Lucifer Trust, brought out many books, so it's the Culture Creators who were busy pushing the New Age and creating this as part of our culture.

The aim is based on Freemasonry, to perfect that which is imperfect, meaning man (enlightenment) Take the ascention, those who are imperfect will not ascend.

Also, it's to do with uegenics to perfect that which is imperfect.

[cleft_asunder]

Interesting post cleft.

A magazine was published and pushed by the Scottish rite Freemasons called the "New Age." The Lucis trust formerly the Lucifer Trust, brought out many books, so it's the Culture Creators who were busy pushing the New Age and creating this as part of our culture.

The aim is based on Freemasonry, to perfect that which is imperfect, meaning man (enlightenment) Take the ascention, those who are imperfect will not ascend.

Also, it's to do with uegenics to perfect that which is imperfect.

Ascending has nothing to do with enlightenment, I think you missed the point.

[coshh]

I thought new-ageism was basically the revival of gnostic syncretism in the post-Christian Europe and the Anglosphere?

[empyblessing]

Thoughtless meditation, as practiced by Zen, is the best way of experiencing spiritual bliss, and contacting the higher self, or the divine. Different meditations serve different purposes. Meditation can be used to calm the body and to reduce pain. Through chanting Aum one can help to increase psychic powers. There is also mindful meditation where one becomes fully aware of the present moment. I'm ignorant of what purpose mantra meditation is.

[cleft_asunder]

Thoughtless meditation, as practiced by Zen, is the best way of experiencing spiritual bliss, and contacting the higher self, or the divine. Different meditations serve different purposes. Meditation can be used to calm the body and to reduce pain. Through chanting Aum one can help to increase psychic powers. There is also mindful meditation where one becomes fully aware of the present moment. I'm ignorant of what purpose mantra meditation is.

1. Thoughtless meditation is the only way to experience spiritual bliss, not the best way. (Enlightenment)

2. Chanting ohm can help increase psychic powers, but this isn't thoughtless meditation.

3. Being aware of the present moment should only be done as thoughtless meditation. If you try to focus on the now through the mind, as you said, you will get bored within minutes, and eventually you will go insane.

4. Mantra meditation is just a poor substitute for real meditation. Real meditation is simple, fast, and effective, why would you want to do anything else? Unless you wanted to increase psychic powers, which pertains to mind-meditation.

[xpleet]

1. Thoughtless meditation is the only way to experience spiritual bliss, not the best way. (Enlightenment)

That is not entirely true.

The divine state can be reached through creativity and music aswell, happens very rarely though as to me.
State of bliss is when one is freed of negativity for a greater extend than normal and less under control of the physical(negative)mind.
I have reached thiis state quite some times, not in meditation but through creation and therefore active thinking.

People must think of enlightenment NOT as a form of understanding because that is not going to happen in this dimension.

[empyblessing]

1. Thoughtless meditation is the only way to experience spiritual bliss, not the best way. (Enlightenment)

2. Chanting ohm can help increase psychic powers, but this isn't thoughtless meditation.

3. Being aware of the present moment should only be done as thoughtless meditation. If you try to focus on the now through the mind, as you said, you will get bored within minutes, and eventually you will go insane.

4. Mantra meditation is just a poor substitute for real meditation. Real meditation is simple, fast, and effective, why would you want to do anything else? Unless you wanted to increase psychic powers, which pertains to mind-meditation.

You're all wrapped up in semantics.

[cleft_asunder]

That is not entirely true.

The divine state can be reached through creativity and music aswell, happens very rarely though as to me.
State of bliss is when one is freed of negativity for a greater extend than normal and less under control of the physical(negative)mind.
I have reached thiis state quite some times, not in meditation but through creation and therefore active thinking.

People must think of enlightenment NOT as a form of understanding because that is not going to happen in this dimension.

It isn't creativity or music which takes you towards enlightenment, it is being in the now and FOCUSING on what you're doing, such as listening to music and being creative. I don't consider this to be full meditation, but it's very close, and is very effective in taking control of your mind --rising above it. This is what I call concentration-meditation. When you focus on what you're doing every day, then you will have the motivation and desire to go into full meditation. Above concentration-meditation is real meditation, which is not doing anything for a time.

[cleft_asunder]

You're all wrapped up in semantics.

I'm just pointing out your contradictions.

[cleft_asunder]

Hmm, back to general forum.

[alexav]

Well I think theres a lot of diferent ways but them all goes to the same place, but; because we are very diferent one from another no one could have the same experience, then explain something internal to others it's a little waste of time...

In the end we all maybe at the same door knocking... only maybe.

[drael]

1. Thoughtless meditation is the only way to experience spiritual bliss, not the best way. (Enlightenment)

Yeah, this most would regard as wrong, including me. There are many ways to enlightement, many techniques. It can even occur "spontaneously" without practice of any sort, although this is less common. Chanting etc, drugs, sensory deprivation, pain, many many things can help create the nessasary altered states. Thats why we have rich spiritual traditions with so much helpful knowledge. Many many techniques.

However, maintaining the enlightened state in general life is better done with simple doing, mindless meditation etc. Like going for a walk without any reflection. One cant always chant or whatever. For this reason IMO, its better to keep it as simple as your mind will allow. If u need to chant, u can start that way, but the training wheel will have to come off, so it is better to start with the simple doing, being etc.

Ive had the visions and mystic states part, the breakthoughs into reality. Im still working on mantaining it in life because im a busy thinker and for me the insights occured spontaneously. Knowing is great, but the state of mind being on always is better, obviously. But i dont use chants or anything just mindfulnes (eg being) - no point in using what u must surrender later.

This is, i agree completely distinct from manifestation, like "meditating" on world peace. Id call this magick, not meditation. Magick is useful in a way, spiritually. There are useful laws and ideas and much good symbolism. It can be used within divine will and beyond ego, however this is rare. The new ages understanding of manifestation aka magick is limited indeed, and quite wrong actually. Its far more complex in reality. (even things like wicca are over simplified and goal focused, not truth focused)

[lizzy]

Interesting post cleft.

A magazine was published and pushed by the Scottish rite Freemasons called the "New Age." The Lucis trust formerly the Lucifer Trust, brought out many books, so it's the Culture Creators who were busy pushing the New Age and creating this as part of our culture.

The aim is based on Freemasonry, to perfect that which is imperfect, meaning man (enlightenment) Take the ascention, those who are imperfect will not ascend.

Also, it's to do with uegenics to perfect that which is imperfect.

I'm of the same thought here eternal.
Meet the new age.same as the old age........control.
Find god without the UN's help.;)

[esse]

and now Oprah and Dr Phil bring you Instant Enlightenment from Ekk Tolle for the low low price of only 19.95!!!!

postage and handling extra

:)



yes... you can learn to tell the difference....

some do.

[esse]

Ekhardt Tolle.....


E.T.


jeez, wonder what section of the bookstore I'd find him in?

could it be.... just maybe....

new age?

Yes, do away with all that study, ancient lineages, philosophy...
why on earth spend years developing yrself like a Native American or a Lama???
when you can have all this NOW (for only 19.95)

I CAN FASTTRACK YOU YES YOU TO ENLIGHTENMENT!

(applause)

*free gift included

[empyblessing]

I'm just pointing out your contradictions.

I meant semantics of the word meditation.

[acidjazz]

Everyone who plays an instrument, makes music, dances, or makes art has accidentally, or purposely, reaced happiness in bliss even if it wasn't permanent. I know this because i breakdance, and when you're dancing in the center of the floor you arent thinking, sometimes you notice that you became everything in that room. The people standing around you can feel your energy, your effort, your full attention, and open awareness.

[montag]

I'm just pointing out your contradictions.
Also needing to make someone wrong is a problem rooted within the ego, can you see your own contradictions cleft?

This is one of my concerns with the New Age, although transcendence of the ego is taught often what happens instead is an inflation of the ego and self importance(specialness).

Just my observation anyway, but I'm happy to be proved wrong..:D

[limelady]

Everyone who plays an instrument, makes music, dances, or makes art has accidentally, or purposely, reaced happiness in bliss even if it wasn't permanent. I know this because i breakdance, and when you're dancing in the center of the floor you arent thinking, sometimes you notice that you became everything in that room. The people standing around you can feel your energy, your effort, your full attention, and open awareness.

You are absolutely right!

When I am playing music or painting, I am sometimes so 'in the moment' with what I am doing, I can literally lose myself and all sense of time ....I like to be on my own when I'm doing these things, and I can lose hours of my day in this 'meditative' way. When I have to stop, its as though I have to climb out of a deep well of some kind to get back into 'life' and function in proper 5-sense reality again.

I hope this makes sense. :p

[thirdwave]

The "New Age" movement has been branded and pushed by the elite to wash out anyone who experiences an enlightening experiences...

It makes no sence as people brand Tsarion a New Ager and also Icke who have many diforent views on things.... likewise with Wilcock.... and many others...

How anyone can paint all these people with the same brush is beyond me...

It is simply a word people can use to brush off things they don't understand ..(are un able to understand)

Of course there are many groups of people that claim to have this new age awakening and many of them are just as brain washed as the christians and other religions...

But there are also many occultists and so on who clearly do know what they are talking about and are in fact very much experience a change in conciousness...

and these people are also thrown into the same bracket as the other mind controlled people.... because many people simply cant spot the diforence. and there egos are delighted to have a tag "New Age" they can use...

its so see through its un real!

there is also a case where many of these new age people are feeling something but are being mislead by negative beings..

New Age is nothing.... it does not exsist as far as I am concerned because it does not really cover a certain individual... it covers (or seems to cover) a huge veraity of people with different outlooks,experiences and beliefs.

[kweli]

The "New Age" movement has been branded and pushed by the elite to wash out anyone who experiences an enlightening experiences...

It makes no sence as people brand Tsarion a New Ager and also Icke who have many diforent views on things.... likewise with Wilcock.... and many others...

How anyone can paint all these people with the same brush is beyond me...

It is simply a word people can use to brush off things they don't understand ..(are un able to understand)

Of course there are many groups of people that claim to have this new age awakening and many of them are just as brain washed as the christians and other religions...

But there are also many occultists and so on who clearly do know what they are talking about and are in fact very much experience a change in conciousness...

and these people are also thrown into the same bracket as the other mind controlled people.... because many people simply cant spot the diforence. and there egos are delighted to have a tag "New Age" they can use...

its so see through its un real!

there is also a case where many of these new age people are feeling something but are being mislead by negative beings..

New Age is nothing.... it does not exsist as far as I am concerned because it does not really cover a certain individual... it covers (or seems to cover) a huge veraity of people with different outlooks,experiences and beliefs.

I suppose you could say the same thing about the 'truth' movement, doesn't mean to say it doesn't exist though, does it?

[neil]

[QUOTE=cleft_asunder;396649]It isn't creativity or music which takes you towards enlightenment, it is being in the now and FOCUSING on what you're doing, such as listening to music and being creative. I don't consider this to be full meditation, but it's very close, and is very effective in taking control of your mind --rising above it. This is what I call concentration-meditation. When you focus on what you're doing every day, then you will have the motivation and desire to go into full meditation.(...)[QUOTE]

Yes, that resonates with me.

[thirdwave]

I suppose you could say the same thing about the 'truth' movement, doesn't mean to say it doesn't exist though, does it?

you could ... its very easy for people to be brushed off as a "nutty Conspiracy theorist" .. but when you look at how many types there are its a silly tag...

its like calling all sports people footballers...

Im not saying that people that the "new age" word points out do not exsist.... its just what they actually are is too vague.... if somone believes that 2012 is relevant it does not make them New Age.... and there may be some "new age" people who don't think 2012 is relevant... they just think mediating all day long is what its all about...


most people will just say... people that like crystals and meditate..... that's pretty much it... and the funny thing about that is people liked crystals and mediated YEARS ago in the old age you only need to look at the crystal in the rocks at Avebury or stone henge...

[boots]

The new age is another label to define a different way of thinking and living.

OK, some say that it is a trick set up by Tavistock, etc. Which it was not. I feel these groups have Hi-jacked this new way of thinking, to cloudy the waters.So the masses become benign to it and think it to be airy fairy stuff about meditation and crystals.

Old age = Believe in the NWO and all that goes with it


New age= Breaking free form the control system and looking at what the older that the old age were on about.

[esse]

Common Sense = realism and doing something about the horrible corruption on the planet - addressing it - recognizing it's real sources.

New Age = neurotic focus on the self - "manifesting" escapism which is based on "channelled" information which is completely metaphysical and untenable...
Selfish focus on "manifestation" and materialism.. Quackery

Mindlessness.... not Mindfullness...

Disrespecting and perverting actual wisdom and spiritual traditions that do lead to the betterment of people.

[soulja]

well said esse..

[sevenworlds]

I'm curious to know where you fit this guy, U.G. Krishnamurti, in. Is he New Age then? ;)


Luc Sala - YouTube

[esse]

I especially love his last address.

[sevenworlds]

Hmmm, interesting. Yet he also says this:

Thinking and wanting, Enlightenment - YouTube

Do you agree with that?

[sevenworlds]

Now, consider what U.G. said in the clip above and what Eckhart Tolle, the "evil New Age guru", says here:

Enlightenment - Eckhart Tolle - www.eckharttolle.com - YouTube

U.G. gave one public talk in the early 70s and then spent the remainder of his life travelling around the world, staying at peoples' homes, answering the questions of those who came to see him. He never wrote any books or made money from his informal chats with people. All that is left of his "teaching" - he always insisted he had no teaching and was not trying to free anyone -are a few books put together by other people and some home video clips on youtube, etc.

Tolle, on the otherhand, has written a few books, given public talks and now has an organisation around him which makes him money from both. Essentially, that is where the difference ends.

So you must either come to the conclusion they are both New Age gurus misleading us or they are both pointing to the one, eternal truth in their own unique way.

I'm not interested in Dr. Wayne Dyer, The Secret, What The Bleep, and all of that stuff. I'm not saying there is NOT some truth in there but those things are not the same as what Tolle and UG are about. Remember, New Age is just a label, a category. It's only meaning is whatever meaning you decide to give it. You could lump all sorts in there but be careful of missing the gold.

[eternal_spirit]

You are absolutely right!

When I am playing music or painting, I am sometimes so 'in the moment' with what I am doing, I can literally lose myself and all sense of time ....I like to be on my own when I'm doing these things, and I can lose hours of my day in this 'meditative' way. When I have to stop, its as though I have to climb out of a deep well of some kind to get back into 'life' and function in proper 5-sense reality again.

I hope this makes sense. :p

I hear you loud and clear. It is a form of self healing.

[esse]

Now, consider what U.G. said in the clip above and what Eckhart Tolle, the "evil New Age guru", says here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdgO4UDrwm8

U.G. gave one public talk in the early 70s and then spent the remainder of his life travelling around the world, staying at peoples' homes, answering the questions of those who came to see him. He never wrote any books or made money from his informal chats with people. All that is left of his "teaching" - he always insisted he had no teaching and was not trying to free anyone -are a few books put together by other people and some home video clips on youtube, etc.

Tolle, on the otherhand, has written a few books, given public talks and now has an organisation around him which makes him money from both. Essentially, that is where the difference ends.

So you must either come to the conclusion they are both New Age gurus misleading us or they are both pointing to the one, eternal truth in their own unique way.

I'm not interested in Dr. Wayne Dyer, The Secret, What The Bleep, and all of that stuff. I'm not saying there is NOT some truth in there but those things are not the same as what Tolle and UG are about. Remember, New Age is just a label, a category. It's only meaning is whatever meaning you decide to give it. You could lump all sorts in there but be careful of missing the gold.

Hmmmmm... I don't recall the hypnotic induction techniques ("you may want to suspend yr normal thinking and go DEEPER...") etc which appear all thru Tolle's work and comprise the larger part of it - nor the rubbishing of genuine schools and traditions - nor the emotionally engaging techniques (I waas depressed to the point of suicide... but than....) etc in Krishnamurti...
Nice try at some kind of cheapo set up - but these 2 people are not the same, not remotely. Just because Tolle rips a lot of people of and inserts truths into his work - his intentions and the twisted things he imbeds into his book are the problem.... Just like any mind control - no one would get sucked in if there were not appealing matter there... Yr point is???

[sevenworlds]

Hmmmmm... I don't recall the hypnotic induction techniques ("you may want to suspend yr normal thinking and go DEEPER...") etc which appear all thru Tolle's work and comprise the larger part of it - nor the rubbishing of genuine schools and traditions - nor the emotionally engaging techniques (I waas depressed to the point of suicide... but than....) etc in Krishnamurti...
Nice try at some kind of cheapo set up - but these 2 people are not the same, not remotely. Just because Tolle rips a lot of people of and inserts truths into his work - his intentions and the twisted things he imbeds into his book are the problem.... Just like any mind control - no one would get sucked in if there were not appealing matter there... Yr point is???

You seem very paranoid.

I'm not trying a cheap set-up on anyone. I'm simply offering the same message from two different sources, that's all, for those who are open enough to receive it.

My point is that the phrase "New Age" is just that. A phrase. Two words. There is nothing else there but two words and the image you make of them. If your belief system filters out everything it perceives as "New Age" then you might miss something valuable. Your choice.

[esse]

it's a leading question... how do you feel about this and you've got yr answer all set up dude... I'm not paranoid, though it you want to get into personal psychological analysis I would point out that you seem botrh gullible and insecure. Let's stop with all the you seem this stuff shall we and stick to the point - I'm not here to insult people, but all the dime store psychology in place of actual arguments is what I'd call cheap shots - setting someone up for some attempted thing is less so but still kinda cheap. As is the suggestion that I'm not open - etc, etc... It seems to make up the bulk of what you keep doing....

New Age is something - it is a whole world of stuff that is best identified and de-bunked so that things like rhyme and reason can take their rightful place.

music is great - gets you in touch with yr feelings - you can put yr insight into it - it gets you dancing!

I'd def vote for a P-Funk for President :)

[sevenworlds]

Also esse, haven't you been suspicious of those telling us not to think? Your mindfulness v mindlessness thing.

U.G. is always pointing out that thought is creating all the problems. How is that different to Tolle's message?

[esse]

OMG are you saying it's suspicion to point out that wisdom exists in mindfulness not mindlessness... that's rich.

Jesus some of you on here make me laugh.

Yeah - so continuing with yr incredible character portrait of me....

Krisnamurti btw loved to examine things and use reason and the mind.

Or did you overlook this?

[sevenworlds]

it's a leading question... how do you feel about this and you've got yr answer all set up dude... I'm not paranoid, though it you want to get into personal psychological analysis I would point out that you seem botrh gullible and insecure. Let's stop with all the you seem this stuff shall we and stick to the point - I'm not here to insult people, but all the dime store psychology in place of actual arguments is what I'd call cheap shots - setting someone up for some attempted thing is less so but still kinda cheap. As is the suggestion that I'm not open - etc, etc... It seems to make up the bulk of what you keep doing....

New Age is something - it is a whole world of stuff that is best identified and de-bunked so that things like rhyme and reason can take their rightful place.


All this "dime store psychology" stuff you are on about - that's all in your head not mine. You can project that on me if you like but psychology is bullshit as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, I ask questions of which I already have an answer sometimes but not to play games. The difference is you can rant against whatever it is I see in people like Tolle and U.G but I'm not going to do the same in return. My certainty in what I know is unshakeable but I also know I have no way of convincing you of that and I'm not interested in doing so.

So to respond to you I have to find other ways of getting my point across. Really all I can do is put things in front of you and maybe it will click. Maybe not. What you must also realise is I always post here with the bigger picture in mind. I might be responding to you but my posts are there for ANYONE with eyes to see and ears to hear. That's why I keep responding. I'm under no illusions that I am able to make you see anything other than what you want to see and if this was just a personal debate amongst you and I, I would have given up long ago.

So you've made it perfectly clear what New Age is to you. I wouldn't even give it anywhere near the importance you are giving it. New Age is irrelevant to me.

[esse]

SevenW.... come off it mate...

you say things like "you seem paranoid" then suggest that "open people" (which don't include me....sigh) than go into "aren't you being suspicious..."

and you say you are not into psychology - yet you are making assumptions about mine --- yada yada yada (is this the 3rd time I've pointed this out)

is it english you don't comprehend very well or what???

I'm not projecting anything on ya - and New Age is an important issue - and the subject here... so if it's not relevant to you I don't know what yr doing on the thread... nice try tho :)

I'm not ranting ---- more insult.... no more than you bro - and if you made some points you might certainly convince me of things... This is the nature of debate and I'm in no way against learning. I know there's much to learn.

You go on to say all these things about how you post for all here -
Like don't we all?? yada yada

Just do me a favor, go give yrself a pat on the back and if I'm too much bother - fine... why ya bothering? I would rather debate with people who don't do all the little cheap things - and with those who understand debate is based on reason - on thinking - not on copping out, insulting, assuming, etc, etc, etc... all this rubbish - it's circular and I prefer the search for truth which is sincere and fruitful.

[sevenworlds]

Krisnamurti btw loved to examine things and use reason and the mind.

Or did you overlook this?

Not at all.

U.G. certainly did not use reason and the mind. That statement just proves you have not listened to a word he said.

[esse]

Yr right... I was talking about J Krishnamurti....

but from that little vid you posted what I saw was a man thinking, speaking, using logic and mind - communicating on things he had reflected on...

learning mastery of oneself - is important, how to de-stress, calm the mind, meditation helps with this - it does not rid us of mind, it help us observe it and not be constantly pulled and pushed by strong emotions, desire etc...

If mind was gone - the body would die - consciousness is something I believe exists beyond the body... but there is nothing wrong with mind or the body

Reason is a Virtue - and philosophy a path to Enlightenment.

[empyblessing]

Hmmmmm... I don't recall the hypnotic induction techniques ("you may want to suspend yr normal thinking and go DEEPER...") etc which appear all thru Tolle's work and comprise the larger part of it - nor the rubbishing of genuine schools and traditions - nor the emotionally engaging techniques (I waas depressed to the point of suicide... but than....) etc in Krishnamurti...
Nice try at some kind of cheapo set up - but these 2 people are not the same, not remotely. Just because Tolle rips a lot of people of and inserts truths into his work - his intentions and the twisted things he imbeds into his book are the problem.... Just like any mind control - no one would get sucked in if there were not appealing matter there... Yr point is???

I'm unfamiliar with his work. What are the "twisted things he imbeds into his book?"

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

You are absolutely right!

When I am playing music or painting, I am sometimes so 'in the moment' with what I am doing, I can literally lose myself and all sense of time ....I like to be on my own when I'm doing these things, and I can lose hours of my day in this 'meditative' way. When I have to stop, its as though I have to climb out of a deep well of some kind to get back into 'life' and function in proper 5-sense reality again.

I hope this makes sense. :p

I understand completely Limelady.

What is your instrument?

[esse]

I'm unfamiliar with his work. What are the "twisted things he imbeds into his book?"

Hey EB - a bunch of us have been warring over this subject for a couple weeks and there are about four other threads dedicated to it - so you might want to have a read thru this is one of the things I particularly objected to:
ripped from one of the other threads so a bit of responding...

Beautifully said Montag - in total agreement there, I think Tolle is very tricky (tricky mind kind of stuff his book) I read it and see so much hypnotic induction going on, and sort of conflicting messages which are very subtle, but none the less very confusing. he is not giving people practices, he is presenting a book of concepts (while his main message is we need to free ourselves from the conceptual?! Conflicts like these people take no notice of)
He says things like "The word God has become a closed concept" "empty of meaning thru thousands of years of misuse" I mean, to who? I don't think this is really the case for most humans contemplating the Divine...

Then he says things like:

"the ancient religions, have become so overlaid with extraneous matter that their spiritual essence has become almost completely obscured by it"

I mean, what is he talking about? The difference is, real teachers from ancient lineages may well teach philosophy - as well as meditation and any number of practices to awaken us - but what are they awakening us to? Teaching us to ride the horse with grace, dignity, beauty - how to best make use of all our being, feelings - how to use and understand these, how to walk with balance, not dissociate ourselves like the scientologists and other progamming cults may do -

The reason these lineages did teach so extensively, is not to clutter, but to really separate the diamond from the coal. It takes a lot of work to refine oneself - People who can teach have done a lot of work - they do have understanding, and I'm sure their minds are capable of comprehension of their own wisdom - Tho they might not always spell it out for us, they might ask the right questions to awaken us, as they realize it is far more powerful not to spoonfeed (like Tolle) but to help make us have that realization ourselves.

This requires art - skillfull means

Tolle tells us how it is - and then tells us not to be stuck in our comprehension - how are any of his ideas and words other than this? How is he lifting us out of our concepts?
__________________

[lenejento]

The real reason why I think some are so suspicious of Tolle is that he's so 'successful', reaching alot of people, and being on Oprah etc, fair enough. It doesen't fit with some conspiracy belief systems. The 'too good to be true' saying comes to mind.

Esse, I see you are pointing out that Tolle is contraicting himself or has conflicting messages as you call it, well all I can say is, it is not easy to talk about something that can't be really talked about. You can only point. It is like one finger pointing at the moon in one part of the world, and then another pointing at the moon in another part of the world, it looks as though, if you only look at the finger, that they are pointing in different directions, but they are both pointing at the same thing.

Good thread cleft.

[romas]

How about practical side, gurus endorsed by private mass media are probably not the way to go, right?

The Rothschilds owning Reuters International News Agency says something?

Ted Turner owns CNN CBS and other?

[edelweiss pirate]

I don't normally like to clear up disinformation on here, since it generally turns out to be stressful and burdening, and within a month it's forgetten. But regardless, I'll do it anyway because I can. It's amazing how much ignorance on the subject of the New Age there is. Lots of rebellious tough talk coming from certain individuals, but they always betray their ignorance by failing to point out the truth that has been burried within the New Age movment. Obviously, if they could point out the truth, then they wouldn't be making the amateurish posts typically seen.

In order for you to understand what the truth isn't in the New Age movement, I will tell you what the truth is. You are probably expecting some long article, or much technical jargon but the reality is that ultimate truth is simple not complex, and that is what the New Age seeks to do: To bury the simple truth with complexity.

The simple truth within the New Age is meditation. Not mind-meditation but real meditation. Real meditation has nothing to do with telepathy, channeling, out of body experience, ascending, chakras, visualization, reality creation, soul, et cetera. These things have NOTHING --not a single thing-- to do with spirituality, because spirituality IS meditation, and real meditation has nothing to do with using your mind. You cannot find your spirit through your mind. Meditation simply means to stop using the mind, and to be present. Like the word God, the word meditation is corrupt. The New Age calls mind-meditation meditation, but they are totally different. It just looks the same on the outside to a passer-by.

All the abilities I just mentioned are things you can learn by doing certain mind-practices (mind-meditation if you will), and the result of these techniques are fruits that are egoic in nature. That is to say, they pertain to the individual vehicle, the space suit. It's not above the multiverse it's of it. In the New Age, pride develops when one learns something others cannot do, and this is how false-guru's are created. For example, let's say you learn telepathy, would you not feel prideful and better than the rest? That is why we see so much egoism in the New Age, because it is anti-spiritual. These mind tricks that you learn aren't bad in themselves, they are only bad when the individual doesn't have spirituality upon which to errect his towers.

So within the New Age, like most religions, is that buried truth: Meditation, which is spirituality. The key to the spirit. Extremely simple. All that meditation asks of the individual is to silence the mind, and out of that will spring forth peace, joy, eventually genuine love, and ultimately bliss. If you run into a teaching that is more complex than this, or which asks you to focus on your mind, then you must understand that it isn't meditation nor spirituality.

So what is the New Age then? It is everything else other than real meditation which proclaims itself as spirituality. Now, don't get the impression that the New Age is BAD, because there are many truths in it. But they aren't spiritual truths, they are truths pertaining to the multiverse and the mind. And, there is much disinformation in it. The controllers manipulate the New Age into a direction in which it leads people astray by replacing their spirituality with filler. For example, a group of individuals listening to Eckhart Tolle speak and a group of individuals gathered around a false guru look the same on the outside, but one deals with spirituality and the other deals with filler. One group is genuinly spiritual while the other group has spiritual lack and are moving further from spirituality. The first group doesn't worship Tolle, while the second group is in awe of the false guru. Tolle teaches us to look within ourselves and to find happiness and peace within, while the false guru loves the attention he's getting. The reality is that these people are as different as night and day and it is very easy to know who is false and who isn't.

There is meditation, and everything else other than that is information. Meditation is spirituality, and information is mind. And it's no more complicated than that. Anyone who proclaims to teach you spirituality will teach you to look within yourself and to be your own guru, and will not accept your worshipping of them.

Not quite. Meditation is meditation. I meditate and I'm not New Age.

New Age is a label, a marketing ploy, with a range of products and lifestyle solutions to the disgruntled hippy in need of a helping hand from their friendly government occult services department....

What else did you think it was? Genuine rebellion... LOLZ.

New Age covers a multitude of sins from Blavatsky, Crowley, to CIA suicide cults to 2012 doom and apocalypse...

Bottom line is this:

Groups and labels are for the sheep who need to follow. The only true path to wisdom is the solitary path. That's your path. Who else knows you and can help you like you know yourself?

If you join groups of any sort you're only going to risk losing your sense of self and diluting any real progress.

Some people do get spiritually involved with groups. That's the last trick the devil has up his sleeve. Who needs an interpretor between you and your soul?

[lenejento]

How about practical side, gurus endorsed by private mass media are probably not the way to go, right?

The Rothschilds owning Reuters International News Agency says something?

Ted Turner owns CNN CBS and other?

I see your point, something that the media endorses must be brainwashing is your reasoning.

Maybe the tptb think it is all hogwash, who said the elite know or understand anything about ultimate spiritual truth? The truth about who we really are?

There are many possibilities...

[sevenworlds]

SevenW.... come off it mate...

you say things like "you seem paranoid" then suggest that "open people" (which don't include me....sigh) than go into "aren't you being suspicious..."

Yes, that may be how you read those things but I did not intend them that way. My point about the suspicious thing was that I'd noticed in this and other threads of this nature you seemed to be for "mindfulness" and against "mindlessness". I'm still not sure how you define each in your mind but UG Krishnamurti was a man who was operating outside the boundaries of the mind (as in rational, intellectual thinking). His responses were not worked out, logical or in any way what you would call rational thinking using the intellect.

You seemed to support what he was saying yet his answers were coming from a place that was not logical or rational in any way and I was curious to know how that fitted with your suspicion of people (like Tolle) who are operating in the same way. That's all.

I'm not projecting anything on ya - and New Age is an important issue - and the subject here... so if it's not relevant to you I don't know what yr doing on the thread... nice try tho :)

I am here to offer the point of view that New Age is not important. It's only importance is the importance you choose to give it.

You go on to say all these things about how you post for all here -
Like don't we all?? yada yada

When I look around here I'm not so sure. I mainly see people trying to convince others to their point of view, to win arguments. I am not here to enter into rational, logical debates. We could do that for eternity and still we'll be no further forward.

Just do me a favor, go give yrself a pat on the back and if I'm too much bother - fine... why ya bothering? I would rather debate with people who don't do all the little cheap things - and with those who understand debate is based on reason - on thinking - not on copping out, insulting, assuming, etc, etc, etc... all this rubbish - it's circular and I prefer the search for truth which is sincere and fruitful.

The part I've highlighted is the reason I said I'm not interested in debating with you. It's nothing to do with me feeling you are beneath me or whatever it is you think. I know you want a reasoned, logical debate about this. That was plain to see from the other threads. But what I am talking about doesn't operate within those boundaries so I know it's pointless. But I can still respond to your posts in a way that maybe allows others to see what I am pointing to.

Despite what you might think, I am not your enemy and I'm certainly not interested in playing psychological games with you. I am simply offering mirrors for you to see yourself more clearly. Whether you choose to look into them is up to you.

[sevenworlds]

Yr right... I was talking about J Krishnamurti....

but from that little vid you posted what I saw was a man thinking, speaking, using logic and mind - communicating on things he had reflected on....

That is your projection. What actually comes out of his mouth is spontaneous, instant, in-the-moment. It's never rehearsed, worked out or pre-meditated in any way. That is why there is such certainty and clarity to what he says. That is why Tolle can speak for hours without a script.

Reason is a Virtue - and philosophy a path to Enlightenment.

Philosophy is the obstacle of enlightenment not the path to it. Philosophy is using the mind. You cannot use the mind to get to a state of no-mind or what is called enlightenment.

[montag]

That is your projection. What actually comes out of his mouth is spontaneous, instant, in-the-moment. It's never rehearsed, worked out or pre-meditated in any way. That is why there is such certainty and clarity to what he says. That is why Tolle can speak for hours without a script.



Philosophy is the obstacle of enlightenment not the path to it. Philosophy is using the mind. You cannot use the mind to get to a state of no-mind or what is called enlightenment.
Isn't what you have been espousing on this and other threads also a philosophy? Isn't the concept of no mind a philosophy? I don't see how it's possible to advance without a philosophical viewpoint, even if it is to the point of no mind, one must first have the idea.

[lennart]

Everyone who plays an instrument, makes music, dances, or makes art has accidentally, or purposely, reaced happiness in bliss even if it wasn't permanent. I know this because i breakdance, and when you're dancing in the center of the floor you arent thinking, sometimes you notice that you became everything in that room. The people standing around you can feel your energy, your effort, your full attention, and open awareness.


Yearssss ago i was at this bar/disco and then this lady came in....she looked not so beautiful or not someone i would fall for...ugly clothes also....anyway, then she went to the dancefloor....started dancing so free and so wild or so taken by the music....and then the most weirdest thing happend...i actually fell, sort of, in love for 10minutes(then she stopped). I was staring at here and i was not the only one!

People are beautiful when their so open and so.....human!!

[lizzy]

Not quite. Meditation is meditation. I meditate and I'm not New Age.

New Age is a label, a marketing ploy, with a range of products and lifestyle solutions to the disgruntled hippy in need of a helping hand from their friendly government occult services department....

What else did you think it was? Genuine rebellion... LOLZ.

New Age covers a multitude of sins from Blavatsky, Crowley, to CIA suicide cults to 2012 doom and apocalypse...

Bottom line is this:

Groups and labels are for the sheep who need to follow. The only true path to wisdom is the solitary path. That's your path. Who else knows you and can help you like you know yourself?

If you join groups of any sort you're only going to risk losing your sense of self and diluting any real progress.

Some people do get spiritually involved with groups. That's the last trick the devil has up his sleeve. Who needs an interpretor between you and your soul?

This is where I see eye to eye with EP.:) Know Thy Self...and I am still working on the engima:D

[matthew84]

I love the Power of Now by Eckhard Tolle as I struggle to shut my mind up; it's constantly twittering. I have to watch myself and try to observe my mind as it drones on and on like a humming bird, usually distracting me from the eternal now by skipping back to the past and going over old bug-bears or zooming off into the future and imagining what could be.

The past and the future, both fillers of void places. The now is all there ever is. Wish I could remember that without having to think it continuously.

[lenejento]

I love the Power of Now by Eckhard Tolle as I struggle to shut my mind up; it's constantly twittering. I have to watch myself and try to observe my mind as it drones on and on like a humming bird, usually distracting me from the eternal now by skipping back to the past and going over old bug-bears or zooming off into the future and imagining what could be.

The past and the future, both fillers of void places. The now is all there ever is. Wish I could remember that without having to think it continuously.

Isn't this the truth!
It's great to have a good and intelligent mind, but not when is hides who you really are (when you identify with it), when all those racing thoughts are gone, you can focus your mind much more effectively, you get you mind power back instead of wasting the energy on conditioned thought.

[sevenworlds]

Isn't what you have been espousing on this and other threads also a philosophy? Isn't the concept of no mind a philosophy? I don't see how it's possible to advance without a philosophical viewpoint, even if it is to the point of no mind, one must first have the idea.

No, but I can see how it looks that way. The truth is NEVER in the words. That's why I'll freely admit what I say is rubbish. It is both meaningful and meaningless at the same time - depending on you. After everything I say about this I always get the thought "no, that's not quite it". That's probably why I go on a bit. But all we have in this world are words. We are all the time trying to use words to get across something that is beyond words. What Lenejento said about "the finger pointing at the moon" is a good analogy of it.

The "concept of no mind" as you put it has only become a concept because people have listened to the words of someone who operated DIRECTLY from that place/no-place and have looked at the words (the finger) rather than looking at the moon (what the words are pointing to) and built a philosophy around the words. It's impossible to build a philosophy around what they are pointing to.

[montag]

No, but I can see how it looks that way. The truth is NEVER in the words. That's why I'll freely admit what I say is rubbish. It is both meaningful and meaningless at the same time - depending on you. After everything I say about this I always get the thought "no, that's not quite it". That's probably why I go on a bit. But all we have in this world are words. We are all the time trying to use words to get across something that is beyond words. What Lenejento said about "the finger pointing at the moon" is a good analogy of it.

The "concept of no mind" as you put it has only become a concept because people have listened to the words of someone who operated DIRECTLY from that place/no-place and have looked at the words (the finger) rather than looking at the moon (what the words are pointing to) and built a philosophy around the words. It's impossible to build a philosophy around what they are pointing to.
But still you have, the idea of pointing to the truth is an old philosophical idea in itself. I appreciate where you're coming from and I understand that the intellect can often be a barrier to discovering spiritual truths, but I just don't see how it's possible without some form of philosophical outlook to begin with, even if it is eventually abandoned it would still be required to bring you to that point of abandonment, thus being essential to 'enlightenment'.:confused:
Does that make sense..?

[seeker1111]

When I stumbled on this thread it reminded me of Dhyan Vimal, who speaks about silence of the mind and becoming self aware. I find what he speaks about to be really interesting and thought provoking ( or not thought provoking :cool:)

Dhyan Vimal - Self knowledge is the beginning [1/3] - YouTube (self knowledge is the beginning)

To The Mind That Is Silent - Mastery Happens (Part 1) - YouTube (to the mind that is silent mastery happens)

[sevenworlds]

But still you have, the idea of pointing to the truth is an old philosophical idea in itself. I appreciate where you're coming from and I understand that the intellect can often be a barrier to discovering spiritual truths, but I just don't see how it's possible without some form of philosophical outlook to begin with, even if it is eventually abandoned it would still be required to bring you to that point of abandonment, thus being essential to 'enlightenment'.:confused:
Does that make sense..?

Yes, it is true I may use an old idea to get something across but I don't actually believe it myself. It's like I said... all we have are words and there are no original words or thoughts. But I can offer many different expressions of the same no-thing to take peoples' focus away from the words so they are unable to build a philosophy around it. Obviously, whether that has any effect is not in my hands. Again, that may sound like an idea but it's just a way of putting it into words for the purpose of explanation. In truth, I really don't know why I am here posting all of this. :)

The intellect is self-perpetuating. It doesn't want to come to an end. It's very sly in that it will convince you it does and that you need to pursue this or that to reach enlightenment. All it is doing is strengthening itself. You may still come to an end through pursuing but it won't be because of your pursuits but despite them.

[esse]

I love the Power of Now by Eckhard Tolle as I struggle to shut my mind up; it's constantly twittering. I have to watch myself and try to observe my mind as it drones on and on like a humming bird, usually distracting me from the eternal now by skipping back to the past and going over old bug-bears or zooming off into the future and imagining what could be.

The past and the future, both fillers of void places. The now is all there ever is. Wish I could remember that without having to think it continuously.

aah... just realize that both remembering and dreaming are happening in the present - nothing wrong with them either... they are the stuff that build great endeavors and informs our sense of beauty.... how could an artist work without these things?

[esse]

slippery as a snake sevenworlds....

[cleft_asunder]

Yeah, this most would regard as wrong, including me. There are many ways to enlightement, many techniques. It can even occur "spontaneously" without practice of any sort, although this is less common. Chanting etc, drugs, sensory deprivation, pain, many many things can help create the nessasary altered states. Thats why we have rich spiritual traditions with so much helpful knowledge. Many many techniques.

However, maintaining the enlightened state in general life is better done with simple doing, mindless meditation etc. Like going for a walk without any reflection. One cant always chant or whatever. For this reason IMO, its better to keep it as simple as your mind will allow. If u need to chant, u can start that way, but the training wheel will have to come off, so it is better to start with the simple doing, being etc.

Ive had the visions and mystic states part, the breakthoughs into reality. Im still working on mantaining it in life because im a busy thinker and for me the insights occured spontaneously. Knowing is great, but the state of mind being on always is better, obviously. But i dont use chants or anything just mindfulnes (eg being) - no point in using what u must surrender later.

This is, i agree completely distinct from manifestation, like "meditating" on world peace. Id call this magick, not meditation. Magick is useful in a way, spiritually. There are useful laws and ideas and much good symbolism. It can be used within divine will and beyond ego, however this is rare. The new ages understanding of manifestation aka magick is limited indeed, and quite wrong actually. Its far more complex in reality. (even things like wicca are over simplified and goal focused, not truth focused)

Really well said. I like the idea of chanting and such as training wheels before the real deal. I guess some people need that. But I feel like the main reason people do it is because it IS meditation, but it's not, it's chanting.

Great post.

[cleft_asunder]

Everyone who plays an instrument, makes music, dances, or makes art has accidentally, or purposely, reaced happiness in bliss even if it wasn't permanent. I know this because i breakdance, and when you're dancing in the center of the floor you arent thinking, sometimes you notice that you became everything in that room. The people standing around you can feel your energy, your effort, your full attention, and open awareness.

Yes, but I wonder if that form of meditation can bring you fully to living enlightenment. I theorize, as I said before, that you can only go so far. BUT, focusing on the present moment IS extremely powerful don't get me wrong and I recommend it. It's just meditation, plus the addition of focusing on something or things without thinking.

[cleft_asunder]

Also needing to make someone wrong is a problem rooted within the ego, can you see your own contradictions cleft?

This is one of my concerns with the New Age, although transcendence of the ego is taught often what happens instead is an inflation of the ego and self importance(specialness).

Just my observation anyway, but I'm happy to be proved wrong..:D

I agree that it came out of my ego. We all have our bad days.

[cleft_asunder]

New Age = neurotic focus on the self - "manifesting" escapism which is based on "channelled" information which is completely metaphysical and untenable...
Selfish focus on "manifestation" and materialism.. Quackery

I've already addressed this in my original post. Had you read it, you would have noticed. Isn't it interesting how you talk about focusing on the self, yet you didn't read my post? But you're very eager to spin the thread into something in your favor.

[cleft_asunder]

I'm curious to know where you fit this guy, U.G. Krishnamurti, in. Is he New Age then? ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2XehPsjoHM

What is New Age? I just know what New Age isn't, not what it is. To me the term New Age, as third wave said, is meaningless.

Regarding the content of the video, I agree with him to a point, but all he is talking about is Religion, false-guru's, and drugs. He mentions that deep meditation will result in insanity in the end. But he isn't talking about REAL meditation since he is unable or unwilling to see a distinction. Rather he is talking about mind-meditation. Certain forms --I don't believe all forms-- of mind meditation can result in insanity.

Other than that, where is he getting his info that mind-meditation means you will go insane eventually no matter what? If I made a statement like that, I better back it up. This guy is very opinionated. I've never heard of anyone who said Jesus did mushrooms. First time I've ever heard that.

Drugs and the experience you attain with them are not even in the same ball part of real meditation. Real meditation is about finding out who you are at the core level --pure consciousness.

[cleft_asunder]

Now, consider what U.G. said in the clip above and what Eckhart Tolle, the "evil New Age guru", says here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdgO4UDrwm8

U.G. gave one public talk in the early 70s and then spent the remainder of his life travelling around the world, staying at peoples' homes, answering the questions of those who came to see him. He never wrote any books or made money from his informal chats with people. All that is left of his "teaching" - he always insisted he had no teaching and was not trying to free anyone -are a few books put together by other people and some home video clips on youtube, etc.

Tolle, on the otherhand, has written a few books, given public talks and now has an organisation around him which makes him money from both. Essentially, that is where the difference ends.

So you must either come to the conclusion they are both New Age gurus misleading us or they are both pointing to the one, eternal truth in their own unique way.

I'm not interested in Dr. Wayne Dyer, The Secret, What The Bleep, and all of that stuff. I'm not saying there is NOT some truth in there but those things are not the same as what Tolle and UG are about. Remember, New Age is just a label, a category. It's only meaning is whatever meaning you decide to give it. You could lump all sorts in there but be careful of missing the gold.

He is saying it in his unique way. But the core is exactly the same, which is to find out who you are at the deepest level. This is done by putting the mind aside and just being aware. And individual who does this regularly is very empowered and above all sane because the mind is no longer in command. Rather than the mind using the individual, the individual uses the mind.

I bring up this aspect because people believe that meditation = escapism. No, real meditation doesn't not equal escapism, but rather the opposite happends. You are empowered.

I also want to point out that making money on something isn't something one should feel guilty about. David Icke makes money on his books and I prefer it that way. He deserves it. Tolle choses to write books because he's fantastic at it. And books cost money, that's just how it is. We are paying for his articulation skills which help us understand the ego, which is one of the root causes of all the suffering today.

[cleft_asunder]

Yr right... I was talking about J Krishnamurti....

but from that little vid you posted what I saw was a man thinking, speaking, using logic and mind - communicating on things he had reflected on...

learning mastery of oneself - is important, how to de-stress, calm the mind, meditation helps with this - it does not rid us of mind, it help us observe it and not be constantly pulled and pushed by strong emotions, desire etc...

If mind was gone - the body would die - consciousness is something I believe exists beyond the body... but there is nothing wrong with mind or the body

Reason is a Virtue - and philosophy a path to Enlightenment.

Well I certainly agree with this. Then what are you arguing about if you already know this?

None of us are AGAINST the mind. It's vitally important for everyone to use the mind so that we can understand the bondage we are in. The problem, however, is that the mind has taken control of consciousness, rather than conscousness using mind as a tool.

Meditation (yes REAL meditation) is setting aside the mind so that AFTER the meditation, it isn't racing around and suppressing us. Because that's what it does! If you are restless, irratated, stressed, then the mind is dominating you and you need a break, big time. Meditation is the solution to balance things out.

Now, there are people on here who don't use meditation just to relax. They want to know who they are at the deepest level. They want to be consciousness in awareness of itself. This is enlightenment, the realization that you aren't your body or mind. But the whole enlightenment seeking thing is corrupt, because it has been perverted by dogma. And that dogma is what I could call the New Age, and all religions.

[cleft_asunder]

Beautifully said Montag - in total agreement there, I think Tolle is very tricky (tricky mind kind of stuff his book) I read it and see so much hypnotic induction going on, and sort of conflicting messages which are very subtle, but none the less very confusing. he is not giving people practices, he is presenting a book of concepts (while his main message is we need to free ourselves from the conceptual?! Conflicts like these people take no notice of)
He says things like "The word God has become a closed concept" "empty of meaning thru thousands of years of misuse" I mean, to who? I don't think this is really the case for most humans contemplating the Divine...

An example of why the word God is corrupt is that an external image of God arises, and that is automatically false. God is pure consciousness, and is the only thing that has life. It is experiencing lifeforms subjectively, but duality and seperatness are a dream of God. It isn't reality in other words. Reality is pure infinite consciousness.

Then he says things like:

"the ancient religions, have become so overlaid with extraneous matter that their spiritual essence has become almost completely obscured by it"

Buddhism, Christianity, New Age, is the extraneous matter created by the Illuminati to hide the simple truth of spirituality so that those who seek spirituality seldom find it. It's very important to fool people into believing that spirituality has something to do with reading a lot of spiritual books and such, when in fact spirituality isn't intellectual.

I mean, what is he talking about? The difference is, real teachers from ancient lineages may well teach philosophy - as well as meditation and any number of practices to awaken us - but what are they awakening us to? Teaching us to ride the horse with grace, dignity, beauty - how to best make use of all our being, feelings - how to use and understand these, how to walk with balance, not dissociate ourselves like the scientologists and other progamming cults may do -

Philosophy awakens us to different truths than meditation.

The reason these lineages did teach so extensively, is not to clutter, but to really separate the diamond from the coal. It takes a lot of work to refine oneself - People who can teach have done a lot of work - they do have understanding, and I'm sure their minds are capable of comprehension of their own wisdom - Tho they might not always spell it out for us, they might ask the right questions to awaken us, as they realize it is far more powerful not to spoonfeed (like Tolle) but to help make us have that realization ourselves.

I'm currently reading A New Earth again but I don't see any spoon feeding. In fact I can sum up the book very quickly. He first talks about mind-identification (which is insanity) being the root cause of our terrible situation. Then he exposes the ego for what it is for about 80% of the book. And the rest is story telling, examples, and a brief chapter regarding the evolution of human consciousness.

I'm not sure where the spoon-feeding happends. Do you mean that he provides content in his books, and the reader receives it? Well then he is certainly guilty.

Tolle tells us how it is - and then tells us not to be stuck in our comprehension - how are any of his ideas and words other than this? How is he lifting us out of our concepts?


He isn't lifteng us out of the our concepts, he's showing us the door, which is meditation. So either you meditate and experience what he writes in person --whcih is what the books is about-- or you stick with concepts which don't amount to anything.

[cleft_asunder]

The real reason why I think some are so suspicious of Tolle is that he's so 'successful', reaching alot of people, and being on Oprah

It's really sad what a bunch of pessimists some are on this forum, because when a good thing comes along, they denounce it. It reminds me of that saying, "if it's too good to be true, then it's not." That was implanted in the population so that we shape a reality where things that are too good don't manifest often. And when we are presented with something too good, we either don't see it because of a conditioned mental block, or we do see it and reject it simply because of that saying. In other words, even though it may be true, we reject it no matter what!

And a few can't control the many? Even on this forum people are conditioned.

[cleft_asunder]

Not quite. Meditation is meditation. I meditate and I'm not New Age.

New Age is a label, a marketing ploy, with a range of products and lifestyle solutions to the disgruntled hippy in need of a helping hand from their friendly government occult services department....

What else did you think it was? Genuine rebellion... LOLZ.

New Age covers a multitude of sins from Blavatsky, Crowley, to CIA suicide cults to 2012 doom and apocalypse...

Bottom line is this:

Groups and labels are for the sheep who need to follow. The only true path to wisdom is the solitary path. That's your path. Who else knows you and can help you like you know yourself?

If you join groups of any sort you're only going to risk losing your sense of self and diluting any real progress.

Some people do get spiritually involved with groups. That's the last trick the devil has up his sleeve. Who needs an interpretor between you and your soul?

But ummm... that's exactly what I said. And Tolle, for example, is telling us to look within, to be our own guru.

[cleft_asunder]

Philosophy is the obstacle of enlightenment not the path to it. Philosophy is using the mind. You cannot use the mind to get to a state of no-mind or what is called enlightenment.

That's right.

When Esse says enlightenment I believe he thinks it's something to do with content, or information. When a philosopher says enlightenment, he is refering to knowledge. Spiritual enlightenment isn't knowledge it is a state of being. It is God (infinite consciousness) in awareness of itself.

[cleft_asunder]

But still you have, the idea of pointing to the truth is an old philosophical idea in itself. I appreciate where you're coming from and I understand that the intellect can often be a barrier to discovering spiritual truths, but I just don't see how it's possible without some form of philosophical outlook to begin with, even if it is eventually abandoned it would still be required to bring you to that point of abandonment, thus being essential to 'enlightenment'.:confused:
Does that make sense..?

Well you're right, most people go that root. Books written by those who live enlightenment create a foundation for others from which they can have motivation and desire to liberate themselves. But, some people like Tolle have a spontaneous experience without even having heard of Enlightenment.

[robby]

When a philosopher says enlightenment, he is refering to knowledge.
Spiritual enlightenment isn't knowledge it is a state of being.
Which can only be expereinced through knowledge


It is God (infinite consciousness) in awareness of itself.

Quote:

Where is there any limitation in the concept behind the word "knowledge"?
What is the value of that word? INFINITE

:cool:

[coshh]

Can someone explain to me why I would want a state of "no mind"?

[esse]

and truly what part of us is there that is not intrinsically divine?

[john white]

What an interesting thread revealing the Power of FEAR

So much fear on this thread!

And yet, what is inside? Only what you take with you

Icke's already defined a key truth about the "New Age":

New Age - Old Age = Same Bollocks!

Strange THAT never gets taken on board :)

But even more so:

There is NO "New Age": There is NO "Old Age"

There is consciousness: and there is NOW

Thats it: all there ever was, all there ever will be

[montag]

Well you're right, most people go that root. Books written by those who live enlightenment create a foundation for others from which they can have motivation and desire to liberate themselves. But, some people like Tolle have a spontaneous experience without even having heard of Enlightenment.
Thats your interpretation of somebody else's story which may or may not be relevant. What's your experience, have you been able to reach what you would consider enlightenment?

[drael]

IMO, enlightenment is not knowledge, it is more basic actually, more obvious, more "just there in front of you" (or inside u), than aquired knowledge - u do not gain it, u realise it, like noticing ur feet are hot, for example. Its like everyone already has it, they just ignore it because of conditioning or distraction. You need nothing to get there, techniques only assist what is natural. Its not a list of facts or realities, like knowledge, its all reality - contradiction, symbol and metaphor merging into something whole that can never be expressed in words or ideas.

Can someone explain to me why I would want a state of "no mind"?

To end suffering, longing and pain and experience the bliss of stillness? Ever stared into a fire at the end of a long day? Blankly read a magazine, read a fiction book or watched tv? gazed at the stars or something beautiful? - here your not thinking with your concious ego mind. Everything "good" ends, leaving pain and loss - thats the trap of desire. Basically because mind sucks. All that "facts" u think u discern with ur "mind" are simply the echoes of conditioning and the meaningless catergorization of the so called "logic" mind. Of course explaining this wont convince you, no matter how much time i spend doing it! thats how irrational the logic mind is....

[esse]

when you taste something....

you "know" what it tastes like...

knowledge.

[montag]

when you taste something....

you "know" what it tastes like...

knowledge.
"You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt."
;)

[cruise4]

"Can someone explain to me why I would want a state of "no mind"?"

I very very much doubt it.

[esse]

"You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt."
;)

nice ;)

[coshh]

"Can someone explain to me why I would want a state of "no mind"?"

I very very much doubt it.

Would you say that's because such a state is undesirable or because you believe I am somehow deficient?

[sevenworlds]

when you taste something....

you "know" what it tastes like...

knowledge.

You don't know what anything tastes like. Taste is conditioned. You don't even know what taste is other than what they have told you.

[coshh]

You don't know what anything tastes like. Taste is conditioned. You don't even know what taste is other than what they have told you.

:rolleyes: so when a baby screws up its face in response to some bitter tasting root, that's because it was conditioned to believe the root is bitter? Not because the alkaloids in the root are picked up by the taste receptors which recognise them for bitter alkaloids and provoke a response?
How exactly does a baby get conditioned like this? And if taste is merely conditioning, why do we even have tastebuds?

[drael]

"You are never dedicated to something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt."

Hmm this make no sense to me. If i knew for a fact the sun wasnt going to rise tommorrow, id prolly be quite dedicated to it. Unlikely id shout about it though, people wouldnt beleive me, they beleive what they want to beleive in. Id prolly tell my freinds and family. Maybe mention it here. And id still likely get ridiculed or looked at funny.

Would you say that's because such a state is undesirable or because you believe I am somehow deficient?

I gave u a reply on the last page also about this. No its because despite thinking being mostly nonsense and causing suffering, the rational mind doesnt like to accept that it is bad. I mean u do alot of experiencing with it, because ur conditioned to, and it is the one that reads the stuff that is clearly bad about it. Its like telling a joke about someone while they are in the room - they just wont generally laugh.

[esse]

You don't know what anything tastes like. Taste is conditioned. You don't even know what taste is other than what they have told you.

and I'm - paranoid and suspicious??? ok...

[coshh]

To end suffering, longing and pain and experience the bliss of stillness?I like longing. And what could be more blissful than to suffer for something you love? Have you never loved something and so felt such terrible agonising sadness because it was being destroyed - and yet known that even though what you love was utterly doomed and you would never again know it, still all the agony of loving it was worth every second - was better than all the worlds pleasures? Ever stared into a fire at the end of a long day? Blankly read a magazine, read a fiction book or watched tv? gazed at the stars or something beautiful? - here your not thinking with your concious ego mind.No I think with my "conscious mind" when I do all those things. Everything "good" ends, leaving pain and lossAnd its wonderful! thats the trap of desire.No desire is when you want it to keep going once it has ended - and that can be exquisite too - you are just not masochistic enough to appreciate the sublimnity of life. Basically because mind sucks. All that "facts" u think u discern with ur "mind" are simply the echoes of conditioning and the meaningless catergorization of the so called "logic" mind.I don't discern facts with my mind... but epistemology is a complicated subject and forums generally are not the place to write a thesis. Of course explaining this wont convince you, no matter how much time i spend doing it! thats how irrational the logic mind is....You are right. Cioran's eyes cover all this. For the pain and longing he has know I would give up all life's pleasures.
But rationality is best in small doses. I am no stoic or epicurean. My value system does not place suffering as the ultimate evil, it is that - not anything else that puts me in conflict with buddhism. I learned a bit from buddhism, for instance its ideas on Self I found accorded entirely with my intuitive viewpoint but its views on suffering make no sense to me.

I agree with Simone Wiel when she says that one of the best things about Christianity is that whilst a great many other religions seek to eliminate suffering, Christianity turns the very real and poignant evil that is suffering, to the service of good.

[sevenworlds]

:rolleyes: so when a baby screws up its face in response to some bitter tasting root, that's because it was conditioned to believe the root is bitter? Not because the alkaloids in the root are picked up by the taste receptors which recognise them for bitter alkaloids and provoke a response?
How exactly does a baby get conditioned like this? And if taste is merely conditioning, why do we even have tastebuds?

"bitter tasting root", "alkaloids in the root", "taste receptors", "bitter alkaloids"....

That is all conditioned crap put into you. Are you telling me a baby is thinking in those terms? All you can do is project the conditioned crap onto everything you see around you. In truth, you don't know why the baby screws up it's face. But it cannot be thinking the same as you.

[coshh]

"bitter tasting root", "alkaloids in the root", "taste receptors", "bitter alkaloids"....

That is all conditioned crap put into you. Are you telling me a baby is thinking in those terms? All you can do is project the conditioned crap onto everything you see around you. In truth, you don't know why the baby screws up it's face. But it cannot be thinking the same as you.

Of course its not thinking the words. But the feeling I feel on my tounge when I put the root in my mouth is the same.
The words are just the way I share my experience with other people - necessarily metaphorical and symbolic because direct experience is incommunicable.

[drael]

Well i thought ud disagree. Very poeticly put though :)

I generally find the suffering and joy/love about equal. And u get the bad bit after uve enjoyed the good bit. Its like eating a nice dinner and then having someone crap on you. That may be cynical, but i beleive beyond all self-talk and conception this is accurate , joy = suffering. They are the same thing, and completely equal. In that sense, for me, theres little divine about it, its like paying the exact price for bread that it costs.

When i was seven i said "life is like a sandpit, u must dig a hole to build a hill". If ur happy with this 50 50 blend of good and bad, and the longing of the mind for more and more sense pleasure, so be it. Its beautiful though i agree, kind like a zen asthetic, part bad and good. Personally i beleive theres a better way.

I don't discern facts with my mind... but epistemology is a complicated subject and forums generally are not the place to write a thesis.

Good u dont discern facts with ur mind, cos they are clear lies, these "facts" in my experience. Heres my thesis on epistemology:

There it was. BTW that was serious.

(im a double major psych/phil and i dont beleive any of it! lol)

I learned a bit from buddhism, for instance its ideas on Self

Well there a reason to be mindful then, and release logical thought - u dont exist, we are all one. U cant reach that while ur logic mind is chattering away. Buddhism aint bad, a little dogmatic i find sometimes...

I dont find much great about christianity. Some of the ideas are good, but practice isnt always great. The sally army is pretty cool in being giving. But also not really and good and evil sorta guy either. I like being compassionate, and it is a path of sorts, but dont beleive in good or bad as being objective.

[sevenworlds]

Of course its not thinking the words. But the feeling I feel on my tounge when I put the root in my mouth is the same.
The words are just the way I share my experience with other people - necessarily metaphorical and symbolic because direct experience is incommunicable.

But how can the feeling be the same? When you taste something you will always filter it through thought. You cannot help it. When you look at something you do the same. Because those thoughts have yet to be put in to a baby, it doesn't know what it is looking at and won't know what it is tasting. There is a purity there that we lack.

[robby]

IMO, enlightenment is not knowledge, it is more basic actually, more obvious, more "just there in front of you" (or inside u), than aquired knowledge - u do not gain it, u realise it, like noticing ur feet are hot, for example. Its like everyone already has it, they just ignore it because of conditioning or distraction. You need nothing to get there, techniques only assist what is natural. Its not a list of facts or realities, like knowledge, its all reality - contradiction, symbol and metaphor merging into something whole that can never be expressed in words or ideas....


Hi Drael

The more is a knowning which is a feeling!
Knowledge is frequecies! Words are vibrations

:)

[coshh]

Will i thought ud disagree. Very poeticly put though :)

I generally find the suffering and joy/love about equal. And u get the bad bit after uve enjoyed the good bit. Its like eating a nice dinner and then having someone crap on you. That may be cynical, but i beleive beyond all self-talk and conception this is accurate , joy = suffering. They are the same thing, and completly equal. In that sense, for me, theres little divine about it, its like paying the exact price for bread that it costs.I don't get 50-50 at all. I've lived a very privileged life, even my pain has been bittersweet.

When i was seven i said "life is like a sandpit, u must dig a hole to build a hill". If ur happy with this 50 50 blend of good and bad, and the longing of the mind for more and more sense pleasure, so be it.When I was 6 I said that one of two things happens, you survive or you die. And neither matters. So its ok. :p

Good u dont discern facts with ur mind, cos they are clear lies, these "facts" in my experience. Heres my thesis on epistemology:


There it was.
Tsk. Plagiarism.

Well there a reason to be mindful then, and release logical thought - u dont exist, we are all one.Mmm, well its complicated. If you look at it one way the whole universe can be considered to be one. And yet it IS divided - and not clearly at all. The bound between the atoms in my hand and the atoms in the air is not smooth but fuzzy - yet there is a bound. The bound between me and my mother also - fuzzy, yet there is a clear transition between states rather than one single monotonous state. Its like a cline in genetics. U cant reach that while ur logic mind is chattering away. Buddhism aint bad, a little dogmatic i find sometimes...I don't have a problem with dogma. Only the uncreative need lawlessness.

I dont find much great about christianity. But also not really and good and evil sorta guy either. I like being compassionate, and it is a path of sorts, but dont beleive in good or bad as being objective.I mostly like Christianity because it is the only living religious tradition in my culture that wasn't invented by bored victorians. But I also like it because I dislike modernity - and I dislike the brutality of ancient paganism - and between the two I found Christendom.
Finally I like that it acknowledges sin. I knew I was a sinner when I shunned the word, I knew we all were - I find religions which claim otherwise dangerously hubristic.

[coshh]

But how can the feeling be the same? When you taste something you will always filter it through thought. You cannot help it. When you look at something you do the same. Because those thoughts have yet to be put in to a baby, it doesn't know what it is looking at and won't know what it is tasting. There is a purity there that we lack.
No when I taste something I experience a taste, not words. Maybe you taste with words but when I am eating I am usually thinking about things which have nothing to do with food and experiencing taste passively. I don't think "mm that tastes blah blah" I just go "nom nom nom" and I experience the sensations of taste (and motion in my body) as my thoughts go "singlehanded cultural counterrevolution, I miss the 18th century, bloody french ruining everything, man I am arrogant, how dare that guy call me humble doesn't he know if I get any more arrogant my pride will swell to such a size it will explode splattering the whole world with the blood of innocents?! oh no I have to fill in a form by tomorrow... I know, I will pretend I don't yaya"

[robby]

when you taste something....

you "know" what it tastes like...

knowledge.

Hi Esse


when you feel something....

you "know" what it feels like...

:)

[sevenworlds]

No when I taste something I experience a taste, not words.

Yes, exactly. You 'experience a taste'. All experiences are conditioned. From the moment we learnt about sweet, salty, sour and bitter we now know what taste is. You may not be consciously thinking about those each time you eat but they are registering in the background. It's like when you are walking along the street talking to somebody. You are not consciously thinking "there's a building, there's the sky, there's a car" but you are always recognising them. You have to keep recognising things all the time otherwise you would come to an end.

[coshh]

Yes, exactly. You 'experience a taste'. All experiences are conditioned. From the moment we learnt about sweet, salty, sour and bitter we now know what taste is. You may not be consciously thinking about those each time you eat but they are registering in the background. It's like when you are walking along the street talking to somebody. You are not consciously thinking "there's a building, there's the sky, there's a car" but you are always recognising them. You have to keep recognising things all the time otherwise you would come to an end.No I knew about tastes before I ever knew about sweet sour etc. I remember back then and I can assure you I did. The experience itself is part of our biological makeup, its too important to be left to learning because we find out if things are edible that way.

[sevenworlds]

No I knew about tastes before I ever knew about sweet sour etc. I remember back then and I can assure you I did. The experience itself is part of our biological makeup, its too important to be left to learning because we find out if things are edible that way.

I don't think you quite see what I'm getting at. Nevermind.

[coshh]

I don't think you quite see what I'm getting at. Nevermind.
You seem to be saying babies can't taste things.

[esse]

I like longing. And what could be more blissful than to suffer for something you love? Have you never loved something and so felt such terrible agonising sadness because it was being destroyed - and yet known that even though what you love was utterly doomed and you would never again know it, still all the agony of loving it was worth every second - was better than all the worlds pleasures? No I think with my "conscious mind" when I do all those things. And its wonderful! No desire is when you want it to keep going once it has ended - and that can be exquisite too - you are just not masochistic enough to appreciate the sublimnity of life. I don't discern facts with my mind... but epistemology is a complicated subject and forums generally are not the place to write a thesis. You are right. Cioran's eyes cover all this. For the pain and longing he has know I would give up all life's pleasures.
But rationality is best in small doses. I am no stoic or epicurean. My value system does not place suffering as the ultimate evil, it is that - not anything else that puts me in conflict with buddhism. I learned a bit from buddhism, for instance its ideas on Self I found accorded entirely with my intuitive viewpoint but its views on suffering make no sense to me.

I agree with Simone Wiel when she says that one of the best things about Christianity is that whilst a great many other religions seek to eliminate suffering, Christianity turns the very real and poignant evil that is suffering, to the service of good.

Beautiful Post - I especially like what you said re. Buddhism and suffering... I do study a variety of philosophies and spiritual traditions - what you are saying here reminds me of the Andre Gide I am reading at the moment, he talks about the value of one's fervor - and I couldn't agree more. Life is precious - I know the highest Buddhist teachings profess the truths of samsara and nirvana being the same - In this, suffering exists only relativley - so I will defend the philosophy as I've found it to be quite complete in it's teachings... Still, having said this - I appreciate what you said, and it is the best and most wonderful critique I've heard yet of one of my favorite schools.
:)

[esse]

Hi Esse


when you feel something....

you "know" what it feels like...

:)

Lovin... touchin... squeezin...

feelin...tastin....pleasin....

sounds good to me!

mind is integral to feeling.... all our nerves, our heart, etc are conected to and work with this faculty. I think all of us, not just part - is to be revered, cared for, appreciated.

and I feeeeeeeeeeeeel nice...
sugar an spice....

[cleft_asunder]

Thats your interpretation of somebody else's story which may or may not be relevant. What's your experience, have you been able to reach what you would consider enlightenment?

The only thing I need to know is that when I meditate, I become peacful, happy, joyful and more loving. Therefore it is obvious to me that this is the means to enlightenment.

[cleft_asunder]

when you taste something....

you "know" what it tastes like...

knowledge.

That's reality, not knowledge. Knowledge pertains to intellect. You don't need your mind to know what something tastes like. When you remember tasting the thing after the fact, then it becomes knowledge. And that remembrance is always flawed in some way.

[sevenworlds]

You don't need your mind to know what something tastes like. When you remember tasting the thing after the fact, then it becomes knowledge. And that remembrance is always flawed in some way.

Yes, this is what I was getting at.

[lenejento]

Soon we won't be allowed to be happy without being judged as being new age. It's only ok to be happy if you have fullfilled a certain desire, but causeless happiness will be judged as new age. :p

[coshh]

Soon we won't be allowed to be happy without being judged as being new age. It's only ok to be happy if you have fullfilled a certain desire, but causeless happiness will be judged as new age. :p

No its new age if when I am sad because my friend has decided to take up mainlining cocaine you tell me that "we create our reality" and that I a) attracted her problems to me by some law of attraction b) shouldn't care about my friend because she is "negative" and "dragging me down" or c) that mainlining cocaine is a perfectly valid life choice and I shouldn't be trying to bum people out with my judgmental outlook.

[lenejento]

No its new age if when I am sad because my friend has decided to take up mainlining cocaine you tell me that "we create our reality" and that I a) attracted her problems to me by some law of attraction b) shouldn't care about my friend because she is "negative" and "dragging me down" or c) that mainlining cocaine is a perfectly valid life choice and I shouldn't be trying to bum people out with my judgmental outlook.

What I said above was meant as a joke, but I guess it could happen.

Who here is saying those things though?

[coshh]

What I said above was meant as a joke, but I guess it could happen.

Who here is saying those things though?

Don't worry, I am being a tad tongue in cheek myself.

[lenejento]

Don't worry, I am being a tad tongue in cheek myself.

Ok :p

Trust me though, I would never encourage anyone to repress their feelings. Not anymore - before I used to just say "cheer up" and try to cheer the person up, thereby making the person forget and repress the feeling.

[ichi wa zen]

This topic is filled with New Age. Just read this topic and youll be New Age in NO TIME!

Thank you New Age Gurus!

[ichi wa zen]

Hi Drael

The more is a knowning which is a feeling!
Knowledge is frequecies! Words are vibrations

:)

Let us take this post as example, now what the hell is this guy talking about! Knowledge is frequencies. Words are vibrations...are you on crack?

STOP LISTENING TO DR PHIL AND WAKE UP!

One Love to all sentient beings ;)

[fromthatshow]

I couldn't agree with you more.
Especially when you say ultimate truth is simple not complex. That is very important.

[fromthatshow]

3. Being aware of the present moment should only be done as thoughtless meditation. If you try to focus on the now through the mind, as you said, you will get bored within minutes, and eventually you will go insane.


My god I've never thought of this. This is my problem with meditation!!

[quetzalcoatl]

Let us take this post as example, now what the hell is this guy talking about! Knowledge is frequencies. Words are vibrations...are you on crack?

STOP LISTENING TO DR PHIL AND WAKE UP!

One Love to all sentient beings ;)

It's a Icke err..ism? :eek: & probably fuckin tru!

Remember where ya are? :p

[oceanwave]

we've had...

new-age, old-age

what about

know-age?*

































*sounds pretty close to..."knowledge", hmm?

[sevenworlds]

Here's some more New Age/Old Age/Under Age and Under Arm for you guys who are confused. This one will make sense to you:

lee perry in budapest part1 - YouTube

lee perry in budapest part2 - YouTube

[oceanwave]

Here's some more New Age/Old Age/Under Age and Under Arm for you guys who are confused. This one will make sense to you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6F-42W4GVQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAtCIDNAQpo

perhaps it would make sense, i don't know

as, i get... "we're sorry, this video is no longer available"

[sevenworlds]

perhaps it would make sense, i don't know

as, i get... "we're sorry, this video is no longer available"

Well, that makes sense.

Try these instead:

Lee Perry in Budapest (part 1) (http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=H6F-42W4GVQ)

Lee Perry in Budapest (part 2)

[oceanwave]

Well, that makes sense.

Try these instead:

Lee Perry in Budapest (part 1) (http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=H6F-42W4GVQ)

Lee Perry in Budapest (part 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAtCIDNAQpo#)

thank you

:)

[amethyst]

Meditation: (dictionary definitions)

1. continued or extended thought; reflection; contemplation.

2.The act or process of meditating.

3.A devotional exercise of or leading to contemplation.

4. A contemplative discourse, usually on a religious or philosophical subject.

So true meditation is "focused" thought on something.

It's not really emptying your mind of all thought. That might not be such a good thing. Your mind is a gift. It should be engaged (focused) not disengaged.

You don't want your mind to "check out" . You want your mind to "tune in" :D

[sevenworlds]

Your mind is a gift. It should be engaged (focused) not disengaged.

You don't want your mind to "check out" . You want your mind to "tune in" :D

What if there is no mind to begin with?

[oceanwave]

Meditation: (dictionary definitions)

1. continued or extended thought; reflection; contemplation.

2.The act or process of meditating.

3.A devotional exercise of or leading to contemplation.

4. A contemplative discourse, usually on a religious or philosophical subject.

So true meditation is "focused" thought on something.

It's not really emptying your mind of all thought. That might not be such a good thing. Your mind is a gift. It should be engaged (focused) not disengaged.

You don't want your mind to "check out" . You want your mind to "tune in" :D

to the 'be-ing' that you 'are'

:)

[amethyst]

What if there is no mind to begin with?

Are you saying you don't have a mind? :confused: A thinking part of yourself?

[amethyst]

to the 'be-ing' that you 'are'

:)

Yep. I'd agree with that.

[sevenworlds]

Are you saying you don't have a mind? :confused: A thinking part of yourself?

I have been told I have a mind. Other than that, I do not see one anywhere.

[oceanwave]

What if there is no mind to begin with?

of course

...but then it begun didn't it?

...as soon as you heard the first words as a baby and thus became cognizant...

:)

[sevenworlds]

of course

...but then it begun didn't it?

...as soon as you heard the first words as a baby and thus became cognizant...

:)

True.

Yet still I see no mind anywhere.

[amethyst]

True.

Yet still I see no mind anywhere.

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there :D

[sevenworlds]

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there :D

True.

But I only know it is there at all because they told me it was.

[amethyst]

True.

But I only know it is there at all because they told me it was.

I'm certain "they" are correct.....whoever they are.

[oceanwave]

True.

Yet still I see no mind anywhere.

then, why do you speak/write/type?

[sevenworlds]

then, why do you speak/write/type?

I don't know.

Same reason I go left instead of right or bother getting up in the morning?

[drael]

I don't get 50-50 at all. I've lived a very privileged life, even my pain has been bittersweet.

So your potential for future suffering is actually huge. The more u have, the more u can lose. The happier u have been, the more contrast to real suffering. I really dont wish that on u freind, but thats life IMO. Lots of freinds? one day theyll all die. Lots of money? could lose it all, or become so used to it that it becomes not enough.

Ive had lots of suffering and loss in my life. But its made me really tolerant to it.

Mmm, well its complicated. If you look at it one way the whole universe can be considered to be one. And yet it IS divided - and not clearly at all. The bound between the atoms in my hand and the atoms in the air is not smooth but fuzzy - yet there is a bound. The bound between me and my mother also - fuzzy, yet there is a clear transition between states rather than one single monotonous state. Its like a cline in genetics.

All the cells in your body are replaced in a year. When does the atoms in your food, oxygen and water stop being food and start being u? Or your waste matter for that matter. If i made a complete copy of u, would that be u?

The world is contininous, there are no boundaries. The food is u, the waste is u, the air is u. If u study this in philosophy u realise identity is quite a nebulus concept indeed.

The atoms in your hand, are made up of electron feilds, which are energy that fluctuates in shape depending on the observer. In that sense, there really is no matter at all, just very chaotic energy.

Ever heard of electron pairs? No matter how far apart they are, they alway have the exact same spin as the other of the pair. Change one, the other changes. The could be at opposite sides of the universe. Scientists generally say this is because they are actually the same particle.

So, get into quatum physics and things start to get real messy.

In bohms theory, the universe is actually just one point, folded across different dimensions.

Seperation is a practicality for the logical mind - for getting food, avoiding danger etc. Just like the logic mind. Theres no logical proof of it, or identity, and when u really analyse it, it becomes obvious everything is continous. Enter in science and even things like time and space can be questioned as real.

The eskimos have 72 words for snow. We have 3 The eskimos would say that those types of snow are different, and seperate. We wouldnt even perceive their existance. Words are like that, they define ones reality...

Meditation: (dictionary definitions)

1. continued or extended thought; reflection; contemplation.

2.The act or process of meditating.

3.A devotional exercise of or leading to contemplation.

4. A contemplative discourse, usually on a religious or philosophical subject.

So true meditation is "focused" thought on something.


Seriously dont read wiki or the dictionary for something like meditation. Meditation isnt focus. Enlightenment isnt mental. Thats just wrong as far as im concerned. Focus on something all u like, ull never get anywhere. Kahil gibran (sp?) - the caravan of thinking does not lead to the oasis of truth. (ruffly).

Lol, meditation being focus. Focus is a training wheel. Here chant on this, visual that, look at this mandala. When ur through with those training wheels, ull find there is no focus, no thought. U go for a walk, but there is no thought . U drink a glass of water - there is no reflection on taste or anything else.

Thinking is a tool, theres no truth to it.

How else are u supposed to be in this aware state all the time - u gonna carry a mandala round strapped to your head? Every time something interrupts ur session, ur gonna think "blue berries blue berries". No, thats still the chatter of the thousand monkey logic mind. May as well carry a pin round and when u start mind wandering give urself a jab! Hypnosis is a focused state of mind. Meditation is the release of the thousand monkey logic mind. Evrything in meditation u think, u let go. Why would u want to focus on something mental? what ultimate truth is that gonna reveal? (well hopefully the have world peace now, or gee that mandala looked nice)

Sorry to be critical, thats just so wrong. Its like saying enlightenment is in order to know your deep self, or attain some prize. Its the experience of truth, the only truth there is. If u wiki or dictionary stuff like this, ull get thrown off. The mainstream has no real comprehension of meditation, enlightenment etc (although surprisingly the wiki page on mysticism isnt too bad - but, for example, the one on asceticism is quite wrong)

What if there is no mind to begin with?

Thats what the mystics generally say. There is no ego, no mind, no logic mind, no matter, no objects, no words, no things, no seperation. There is only the unnamable oneness.

[john white]

Lol, meditation being focus. Focus is a training wheel. Here chant on this, visual that, look at this mandala. When ur through with those training wheels, ull find there is no focus, no thought. U go for a walk, but there is no thought (apart from traffic light, must push pedestrian button, or this way looks nice - and these are really thoughts, they are reflex like decisions; theyre automatic). U drink a glass of water - there is no reflection on taste or anything else

Isnt it just? Focus is just something to keep the Robot mind occupied so it STFU

Funnily enough the "Voice of Oneness" that Icke communed with in his Ayahuasca experiance said much the same about his talks "you talk to keep the mind occupied so the real work can take place", but this is usually overlooked and rarely mentioned

Important stuff (relatively) usually is

But then, thats mind all over really

Give it a good kicking till it knows whose boss is "my" advice :)

[john white]

Whilst I'm "here":

Look:

I know it spoils the fun of a good old ding-dong debate thread BUT:

Any comments?


What an interesting thread revealing the Power of FEAR

So much fear on this thread!

And yet, what is inside? Only what you take with you

Icke's already defined a key truth about the "New Age":

New Age - Old Age = Same Bollocks!

Strange THAT never gets taken on board :)

But even more so:

There is NO "New Age": There is NO "Old Age"

There is consciousness: and there is NOW

Thats it: all there ever was, all there ever will be

[seeker1111]

I have this theory that we are all part of one consciousness, all knowing, this would include what we perceive as evil and good all jumbled together in one gigantic blob.

Now, in order for us to experience what not knowing is, or what anything isn't, which I assume you might want to do if you are in a constant state of knowing forever, the only way this can be done is by creating an experience where we, for lack of a better description, forget who we are and where we come from.

Essentially, we decide to split from the consciousness, not separate completely, but kind of shatter I guess, in order to physically experience different aspects of the whole of ourselves. But, just because we have separated from that consciousness, by temporarily forgetting the completeness of who we really are, does not mean that the essence of what we are has changed. It's like cutting an apple in half. Just because you cut it in half, does not mean that one half or the other is no longer an apple. It is just not entirely complete.

Now I don't believe we have actually physically separated from the source either, but have created an illusion within our own minds that this is so, because the source is not physical, and you can never truly be separated from it. We have further taken this imagined separation and applied it to the physical realm by separating all feelings, emotions, actions, and senses into different categories and labelling them based on our own different perspectives of them. Which is why, in the end we will never be able to fully agree on one perspective of anything. Because just one perspective will never be the complete perspective. We can however choose to work together toward a common goal by choosing to experience that which we collectively feel would benefit our society and civilization as a whole. But I digress.

When we wake up and re-member who we really are we realize that we are already apart of or a 'member' of the source, and have simply forgotten it, ei. convinced ourselves we are separate from it, which has served in us being able to separately experience each part of the source. I see the benefits of this as being able to FULLY and completely understand the source BECAUSE of our separate physical or spiritual experiences. It's like hearing somebody talk about something they have never experienced, for example, the people who always talk about how to raise kids and they've never actually had one. They can speculate and say, well this appears to be the best way, yet if they've never physically had the experience of having one they can't truly have an understanding of what it would be like.

As a collective, the consciousness knows the truth about everything, because it IS everything, yet in order to manifest that consciousness it chooses to experience it physically.

On a side note I had a very vivid dream the other night (I had gone to sleep with the 'evil's' of the world weighing heavily on my mind. In my dream I was reviewing and questioning the atrocities of the world and its perpetrators. Something spoke to me, or rather I felt an answer that I was not to judge those people who are doing these awful things, because in the grand scheme they have forgotten who they really are. Perhaps they were experiencing those things that they may have previously themselves despised or judged of others in a previous lifetime and were now experiencing, by choice, a full separation from the source through total forgetfulness of who they really are. One might ask, why on earth would anyone want to experience that? In our limited perception of time, space, and bigger things in general it might be hard to fathom. But perhaps they saw the value of re experiencing everything from a different perspective which in turn would bring them closer to the source and being complete once again.

Now I realize I may get bashed here by people saying, Well how could you say that? How are they learning anything by being monsters and doing awful things to the world. I would say to that, that one can never fully understand the workings of the mind and heart and what is truly going on inside a person, without first experiencing everything they have been through. In this life and in past lifetimes.

Obviously I'm not saying that everyone should go out and choose to experience the dark side, but perhaps the effort to keep us forgetful of where we come from and who we are is their forgetfulness and reality seeking to absorb ours into theirs. Which could explain in part the massive effort to keep us in a continuously forgetful state, hypnotised to make us feel even further from the source. All the more reason for us to realize this and continue to wake up and re-member ourselves.

I've had some pretty bad experiences in my life, but in the grand scheme of things they have only served to be a blessing and I was able to know myself deeper and be more aware of the things going on around me because of, not in spite of.

Those of us who are waking up, have an even greater responsibility to take full responsibility for our actions and our lives. To not lay the blame on anyone else but to move forward with the knowledge that we have power within ourselves to change the inside and in turn this can't help but have a dramatic affect on the outside.

You won't be able to change everybody, some people for whatever reason not known to us will choose to keep on experiencing their reality of darkness. We can however show them our perspective and it's up to them what they decide to do with the information.

It must start from within though without judging the people around us. It is sad to think that those in power may be in such a state of forgetfulness to be wreaking all of this havoc, but perhaps it's all apart of the re awakening process of us all. I believe that they will remember who they truly are at some point, maybe not in this lifetime or the next but nothing remains static forever, everything changes eventually.

It's also comforting to think that, no matter how 'real' this world appears to you, (if my theory has some truth to it) this is just one gigantic illusion created by each of us in order to more fully understand our separate selves and the complete consciousness.

Anyways, if nothing else, some food for thought? I don't claim to KNOW everything, or that my way is better than anyone else's, this is simply my perspective, a small contribution to the bigger picture, as is your perspective and everyone else's.

Hope I didn't lose anyone, who am I kidding? You probably stopped reading at the 3rd paragraph...OK maybe the 1st. ;) (so I can really say anything right about now and it doesn't matter...:D ) Kidding...

May love guide you all,

[john white]

Thats a great and brave post mate :)

[micklemus]

I'll second that. Very much where I come from too.

:)

[oceanwave]

good post indeed seeker1111

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[coshh]

So your potential for future suffering is actually huge. The more u have, the more u can lose. The happier u have been, the more contrast to real suffering. I really dont wish that on u freind, but thats life IMO. Lots of freinds? one day theyll all die. Lots of money? could lose it all, or become so used to it that it becomes not enough. I have one friend I hardly ever see and no money but I live with my parents. If they died I would have no way to provide for myself but when I was a teenager I often ran off alone to have "adventures" and I always managed to stay alive - and if I do die... well I'll be dead so it won't be mattering to me. But you are right - I have a lot and could lose it all. Part of the savour of life my friend. For instance I adore medieval art, yet I could go blind and never again glance upon some anonymous painters masterwork in a cathedral or a museum. I adore Ars Nova, yet I could go deaf and never again hear the delights of voices chanting in harmony. I love to argue and to learn new things, yet I could endure a head injury that prevents me ever being able to absorb new information or damages my ability to process ideas. And you think the answer to these very real facts is to get rid of my desire to hear Guillaume de Machaut, to never desire to look upon a depiction of Dolorosa, to never want to know anything new or to understand the information at my disposal? That is absurd. I would rather have had these things and lose them than never have them and rightly so. If I never have them again, at least I have had them, and if I have them again, glory be!

Ive had lots of suffering and loss in my life. But its made me really tolerant to it.I've had little, when I lose one of my favorite fountain pens I get upset for about a day (not "I can't function upset" but every 20 minutes or so I think about the pen I lost and feel a clenching in my bosom) - but I like being upset. It shows I value things, that I value the pen and the craftmanship of the people who took valuable time out of their lives to make it what it is, of the people who took valuable time out of their lives to transport the pen to me, of the people who enabled me to by the pen by working hard for both the money and the circumstances that allowed me to get it. I value all these things, so I am upset when the pen I put money, time and emotion into - becomes lost (never find the things again when I lose them usually). I think it is a good thing I so value things. I only hope I value important things even more - I hope if I go blind I mourn for my sight for many years. I hope if my parents die before me I mourn for them - in some ways for the rest of my life, I hope I am making gestures to their memory even when I am very old, I hope even decades after they are gone I am thinking to myself "I wish my mother were here to enjoy this she'd have loved it" and "I wish I could tell my father about this and hear he talking back and share with him this thing I have found".

All the cells in your body are replaced in a year. When does the atoms in your food, oxygen and water stop being food and start being u? Or your waste matter for that matter. If i made a complete copy of u, would that be u?There is no discrete boundary between the matter in the body and the matter not in the body. Just like there is no discrete boundary between sub species in a cline Cline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The world is contininous, there are no boundaries. The food is u, the waste is u, the air is u. If u study this in philosophy u realise identity is quite a nebulus concept indeed.There are boundaries, but they are fuzzy. There is no thick black line between the colours red and orange - but they are still different and definable.

The atoms in your hand, are made up of electron feilds, which are energy that fluctuates in shape depending on the observer. In that sense, there really is no matter at all, just very chaotic energy.In a sense - matter and energy don't exist. Matter and energy are words we use to discuss theories we apply to life. In that sense everything is unknowable because the universe is indescribable - we can only represent it imperfectly in language. But the fact is we need to theorise about life and we need to represent things in language and even if we didn't - it is impossible not to, and in trying not to what one tends to do is just simplify to the point of making it dysfunctional ones representations of the world.

Ever heard of electron pairs? No matter how far apart they are, they alway have the exact same spin as the other of the pair. Change one, the other changes. The could be at opposite sides of the universe. Scientists generally say this is because they are actually the same particle.I have read various boring physics articles yes. My mother subscribes to new scientist. I don't see how electron pairs are at all interesting.

So, get into quatum physics and things start to get real messy. All quantum physics does is predict the way things behave wheh they are reeeeeeaaaaaly smalll. I never directly encounter reeeeaaaaaalllly small things so why would it be of interest to me how they behave? I am too bad at mathematics to make use of it for the creation of technology so quantum physics doesn't interest me.

In bohms theory, the universe is actually just one point, folded across different dimensions.I do not live in the universe of speculative physicists thank God.

Seperation is a practicality for the logical mind - for getting food, avoiding danger etc. Just like the logic mind. Theres no logical proof of it, or identity, and when u really analyse it, it becomes obvious everything is continous.Continutiy between things doesn't mean there is no distinctiveness. Enter in science and even things like time and space can be questioned as real.People were questioning things like that back before people even invented the written word. And it was as fruitless an activity then as it is now. What does it mean to say something is "true" anyway? Reason is self negating. We've known that at least since the ancient Greeks. That is why one needs more than reason.

The eskimos have 72 words for snow. We have 3 The eskimos would say that those types of snow are different, and seperate. We wouldnt even perceive their existance. Words are like that, they define ones reality...If they say there are that many types of snow then there are and probably more. We just lack the sophistication of appreciation of snow to distinguish them because we don't require that level of sophistication.

[robby]

Let us take this post as example, now what the hell is this guy talking about! Knowledge is frequencies. Words are vibrations...are you on crack?

STOP LISTENING TO DR PHIL AND WAKE UP!

One Love to all sentient beings ;)

WOW- What a compliment...Thank you!!

I'm sure you must have felt what you typed cos I certainly did!!

:)

[cleft_asunder]

Meditation: (dictionary definitions)

1. continued or extended thought; reflection; contemplation.

2.The act or process of meditating.

3.A devotional exercise of or leading to contemplation.

4. A contemplative discourse, usually on a religious or philosophical subject.

So true meditation is "focused" thought on something.

It's not really emptying your mind of all thought. That might not be such a good thing. Your mind is a gift. It should be engaged (focused) not disengaged.

You don't want your mind to "check out" . You want your mind to "tune in" :D

The dictionary definition is not a representation of real meditation. I believe they did this on purpose to throw many many people off. In the East, for example, they have a word for that mindless state, such as Zen. But here we don't have a word for it. They should change the definition to no-mind.

I can't convince you but the mind is against you. It is always racing around trying to take things in, it never shuts up, and it is always projecting itself in the past or future, causing stress. When one becomes peaceful and relaxed, this happends because the mind has been quieted. That is all that meditation (Zen) is about --quieting the mind. But that's not quite right either. You want to be aware of everything that goes on around you, but not through the mind. The mind is a barrier against reality, you see.

The next time you're driving your car or doing whatever, instead of thinking, try focusing on everything that is going on. Focus on your body and hands as they steer the car. Notice the trees swaying in the wind, the colors, the people. But don't judge, don't think, just become the space for everything to happen. You will see, with very little effort joy and peace enter your life.

The mind is a burden because we identify with it --we think we are the mind. It's very heavy, draining, like carrying a rock on our back throughout life. When we are conscious enough to be able to put it aside willingly, life can be enjoyed for the first time.

[cleft_asunder]

True.

Yet still I see no mind anywhere.

If you think of an apple, you are looking at your mind. Imagination is mind.

[cleft_asunder]

Seriously dont read wiki or the dictionary for something like meditation. Meditation isnt focus. Enlightenment isnt mental. Thats just wrong as far as im concerned. Focus on something all u like, ull never get anywhere. Kahil gibran (sp?) - the caravan of thinking does not lead to the oasis of truth. (ruffly).

Lol, meditation being focus. Focus is a training wheel. Here chant on this, visual that, look at this mandala. When ur through with those training wheels, ull find there is no focus, no thought. U go for a walk, but there is no thought . U drink a glass of water - there is no reflection on taste or anything else.

Thinking is a tool, theres no truth to it.

How else are u supposed to be in this aware state all the time - u gonna carry a mandala round strapped to your head? Every time something interrupts ur session, ur gonna think "blue berries blue berries". No, thats still the chatter of the thousand monkey logic mind. May as well carry a pin round and when u start mind wandering give urself a jab! Hypnosis is a focused state of mind. Meditation is the release of the thousand monkey logic mind. Evrything in meditation u think, u let go. Why would u want to focus on something mental? what ultimate truth is that gonna reveal? (well hopefully the have world peace now, or gee that mandala looked nice)

Sorry to be critical, thats just so wrong. Its like saying enlightenment is in order to know your deep self, or attain some prize. Its the experience of truth, the only truth there is. If u wiki or dictionary stuff like this, ull get thrown off. The mainstream has no real comprehension of meditation, enlightenment etc (although surprisingly the wiki page on mysticism isnt too bad - but, for example, the one on asceticism is quite wrong)

You definitely know what you're talking about. Now let's not be all theory no action. I find I talk too much about meditation, and much less doing it. It's a shame, a big shame, because the book Steppenwolf is for people like us. Hesse knew the potential of the intellectual. Yes, you're thinking that it's completely at odds with meditation, but no. A person who understand the concept of meditation intellectually --and it IS necessary in almost all cases-- cuts right to the chase: Mindless meditation. And then he simply lives enlightenment. No mantra, no chanting, he just knows exactly what to do because it was all so simple all along.

Those that chant and do all that stuff have a preconceived idea in their head that spirituality is complex. Well it is complex, but not in the way they think. It's complex because it's simple. Instead of cutting to the chase, people build barriers around themselves called spiritual teachings --religious teachings. And the more they learn, the less spiritual they are. These people won't make it because the more they learn, the more they have to unlearn. But people like us, we can almost effortlessly make it, but we need to shut up and be all action and just do it!

And I will tell you from experience how easy it is. I was really close, but the whole thing stopped when a girl entered my life. (she's gone now) But I wasn't thinking much at all, just being. It was great, joyful, and I was really noticing how I'm not my body. This was only like 1 or 2 months of work! It wasn't even WORK! That's the thing, if it's work, you're not doing it right. That's why I say it's easy, but only if you know exactly what you're doing.

[esse]

I have one friend I hardly ever see and no money but I live with my parents. If they died I would have no way to provide for myself but when I was a teenager I often ran off alone to have "adventures" and I always managed to stay alive - and if I do die... well I'll be dead so it won't be mattering to me. But you are right - I have a lot and could lose it all. Part of the savour of life my friend. For instance I adore medieval art, yet I could go blind and never again glance upon some anonymous painters masterwork in a cathedral or a museum. I adore Ars Nova, yet I could go deaf and never again hear the delights of voices chanting in harmony. I love to argue and to learn new things, yet I could endure a head injury that prevents me ever being able to absorb new information or damages my ability to process ideas. And you think the answer to these very real facts is to get rid of my desire to hear Guillaume de Machaut, to never desire to look upon a depiction of Dolorosa, to never want to know anything new or to understand the information at my disposal? That is absurd. I would rather have had these things and lose them than never have them and rightly so. If I never have them again, at least I have had them, and if I have them again, glory be!

There is no discrete boundary between the matter in the body and the matter not in the body. Just like there is no discrete boundary between sub species in a cline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cline

There are boundaries, but they are fuzzy. There is no thick black line between the colours red and orange - but they are still different and definable.

Continutiy between things doesn't mean there is no distinctiveness. People were questioning things like that back before people even invented the written word. And it was as fruitless an activity then as it is now. What does it mean to say something is "true" anyway? Reason is self negating. We've known that at least since the ancient Greeks. That is why one needs more than reason.

Nice Post - liked what you said about reason... truly, it is a wonderful tool, the higest use of which is to lead us to god.. belief though, faith - knowledge if it's no longer needed (faith that is) - intuition... these things should be it's master.

[amethyst]

Isnt it just? Focus is just something to keep the Robot mind occupied so it STFU

Funnily enough the "Voice of Oneness" that Icke communed with in his Ayahuasca experiance said much the same about his talks "you talk to keep the mind occupied so the real work can take place", but this is usually overlooked and rarely mentioned

Important stuff (relatively) usually is

But then, thats mind all over really

Give it a good kicking till it knows whose boss is "my" advice :)

I'm disagreeing with you (I think) Not really sure what you mean. What's wrong with "thinking seriously" about something? Focusing on it? Isn't that what meditation is? I'm certainly not thinking about chanting, but more of a focused awareness.

I don't think being focused or aware is a bad thing. Don't most people go thru the day oblivious and ignorant? Being aware and thoughtful IMO is a good thing.

[amethyst]

The dictionary definition is not a representation of real meditation. I believe they did this on purpose to throw many many people off. In the East, for example, they have a word for that mindless state, such as Zen. But here we don't have a word for it. They should change the definition to no-mind.

I can't convince you but the mind is against you. It is always racing around trying to take things in, it never shuts up, and it is always projecting itself in the past or future, causing stress. When one becomes peaceful and relaxed, this happends because the mind has been quieted. That is all that meditation (Zen) is about --quieting the mind. But that's not quite right either. You want to be aware of everything that goes on around you, but not through the mind. The mind is a barrier against reality, you see.

The next time you're driving your car or doing whatever, instead of thinking, try focusing on everything that is going on. Focus on your body and hands as they steer the car. Notice the trees swaying in the wind, the colors, the people. But don't judge, don't think, just become the space for everything to happen. You will see, with very little effort joy and peace enter your life.

The mind is a burden because we identify with it --we think we are the mind. It's very heavy, draining, like carrying a rock on our back throughout life. When we are conscious enough to be able to put it aside willingly, life can be enjoyed for the first time.

I can't convince you but the mind is against you. It is always racing around trying to take things in, it never shuts up, and it is always projecting itself in the past or future, causing stress. When one becomes peaceful and relaxed, this happends because the mind has been quieted. That is all that meditation (Zen) is about --quieting the mind. But that's not quite right either. You want to be aware of everything that goes on around you, but not through the mind. The mind is a barrier against reality, you see.

I understand what you mean. There are a lot of distractions and it is hard to quiet the mind at times.

Hey, I'm all for the peaceful and relaxed state (who isn't?) and quieting the mind. But to get get to that peaceful state and relaxed state, does take a bit of "focus" at times (when you are distracted about many things)

To me, meditating is just focusing on something positive, helpful, enlightening, uplifting, truthful or different. It get's your mind out of a negative state. If I focus on these things and not so much on negative things, my perspective changes and "I see" differently. But ya kinda have to redirect your mind to do that at times. That's where the "focus" part comes in. For me anyway.

[thirdwave]

here it is here

New Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

lol, talk about vague.... it bascly saying that anything not religious that involves spirituality is New age! ...

lol

crystals have been believed to contain energy for years..... there have been physics for years.... people that meditate...its nothing new!

its just now all being labelled and generalised for some reason..

[drael]

You definitely know what you're talking about. Now let's not be all theory no action. I find I talk too much about meditation, and much less doing it. It's a shame, a big shame, because the book Steppenwolf is for people like us. Hesse knew the potential of the intellectual. Yes, you're thinking that it's completely at odds with meditation, but no. A person who understand the concept of meditation intellectually --and it IS necessary in almost all cases-- cuts right to the chase: Mindless meditation. And then he simply lives enlightenment. No mantra, no chanting, he just knows exactly what to do because it was all so simple all along.

I agree there is a level of intellectual understanding here. Ive had the experience, but i have contemplated that experience to accept its reality, or at least surrenders old beleifs. And once that acceptance of reality occurs, one can only do mindless meditation. For me though, while i try, i still have i way to go. Very soon, when my life is clearer of obstacles, i am making it my priority to become aware in general living.

I would rather have had these things and lose them than never have them and rightly so. If I never have them again, at least I have had them, and if I have them again, glory be!

I am finding ur general argument to be poetically and emotionally appealling, but without real logical or argumentative substance. Poetic and emotional followed by an assertion, does not an argument make.

Continutiy between things doesn't mean there is no distinctiveness.

As you are making the positive claim here, that things are distinct, the burdern of proof actually lies on you to prove that their are boundaries between things. Good luck!

In that sense everything is unknowable because the universe is indescribable - we can only represent it imperfectly in language

Not only in that sense, but in general, everything is unknowable. Thats why i love debating with people because everything is unknowable, yet almost evry1 thinks they know something (also why mysticism is my final answer to everything personally). If u truely accept this statement, it has radical effect on your beleifs.

The general poetics of your pespective is appealling, and quite broadly, if a little romantically, but it is not convincing to me personally.

Of course we can also agree to disagree as well.

[coshh]

You already disagree with your own position. The fact that you are here on the internet chatting away proves that. You act as if you know that hitting the keys on your computer keyboard will make words appear on the screen, you act as if I and you are distinct beings, all your actions betray your real beliefs, so your words are just intellectual masturbation.

[drael]

Can u tell me, what my behaviour has to do with the nature of truth? Whatever "i" am, and how "i" behave has nothing to do with whats real and isnt.

Contradiction is at the heart of mysticism anyway.

Again, your making the postive assertion - its your job to actually make the case of whats real, in terms of seperation. It should run like

A
(Because of this)
+

B
(and that)
=
(Things are seperated)
C

And i prefer if u didnt bring masturbation into this. Lets please remain civil, freind.

[coshh]

Can u tell me, what my behaviour has to do with the nature of truth? Whatever "i" am, and how "i" behave has nothing to do with whats real and isnt.But how you behave has everything to do with what you actually believe. I would be more likely to believe someone who acts on their beleifs than someone who has a lot of fancy logic they can use to back them up. Logic can be used to justify anything if you are smart enough. I don't think I am smart enough to disect the world logically - but even if I was, I think reason is self negating, it is pointless to use reason to discover anything because its not too long before reason says one thing along "reason cannot tell me what is true".

Again, your making the postive assertion - its your job to actually make the case of whats real, in terms of seperation. It should run like

A
(Because of this)
+

B
(and that)
=
(Things are seperated)
CNah, I don't work like that. Language is metaphor, I present things which I hope will remind you of your experiences which will reflect my own experiences in the hope you can see the world the way I see it. I am not interested in proving a case, I am interested in sharing a perspective. I don't beleive what I believe because of equations but because of a lifetime of experiences.

And i prefer if u didnt bring masturbation into this. Lets please remain civil, freind.

I didn't realise masturbation offended you. We have all indulged in a bit of mental masturbation now and then I would think. My apologies.

[cleft_asunder]

Everythings an argument on the net, rather than a conversation. Forums and the net are over-rated.

[loderlive]

Everythings an argument on the net, rather than a conversation. Forums and the net are over-rated.

No it isn't.

[coshh]

That's not an argument, that's just contradiction.

[loderlive]

That's not an argument, that's just contradiction.

who yu speaking to?

[coshh]

who yu speaking to?

John Clease

[john white]

Isnt it just? Focus is just something to keep the Robot mind occupied so it STFU

Funnily enough the "Voice of Oneness" that Icke communed with in his Ayahuasca experiance said much the same about his talks "you talk to keep the mind occupied so the real work can take place", but this is usually overlooked and rarely mentioned

Important stuff (relatively) usually is

But then, thats mind all over really

Give it a good kicking till it knows whose boss is "my" advice I'm disagreeing with you (I think) Not really sure what you mean. What's wrong with "thinking seriously" about something? Focusing on it? Isn't that what meditation is? I'm certainly not thinking about chanting, but more of a focused awareness.

I don't think being focused or aware is a bad thing. Don't most people go thru the day oblivious and ignorant? Being aware and thoughtful IMO is a good thing.

Its like this:

Thinking is great :)

But thinking isnt boss

And thinking sometimes gets in the way becuase it is a set pattern in an infinity of possible patterns

Higher consciousness communication is decoded through the mind and thoughts but doesnt come from them

So know which is slave and which is master

And it aint mind :)

[amethyst]

Its like this:

Thinking is great :)

But thinking isnt boss

And thinking sometimes gets in the way becuase it is a set pattern in an infinity of possible patterns

Higher consciousness communication is decoded through the mind and thoughts but doesnt come from them

So know which is slave and which is master

And it aint mind :)

Well I guess it depends what you are focusing on right? :) Earthy temporal stuff or eternal stuff?

You are right. The mind does get in the way many times....and plays tricks on you. It does have a way of coloring your view at times.....but I still think that what you focus on comes into play.