How Easily Are You Deceived and Mislead? [Archive]

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christophera

08-06-2008, 07:24 PM

Do you believe things because others believe them? Or, ........ do you insist on evidence and reason?

Do you recognize consistency as being more valid than evidence and reason? Or, ......... if a group of people believe a given thing, will you go along with the group to avoid the social upheaval and community opposition to your dissent?

If it is true that you insist on evidence and reason in your beliefs, does the fact that FEMA never provided plans to NIST for analysis of collapse mean anything to you? Does the fact that the ex NYC mayor took the WTC documents from the city offices mean anything. Can you conceive of a purpose and relationship between the 2 facts?

Does the fact that the plans "leaked" by silverstein to S. Jones, now widely in use by the quasi leaders of the truth movement seem related to the above facts?

If you believe a given thing because a group believes it but there is evidence that such belief is erroneous and that belief threatens your future, will you believe it anyway?

This thread is about the core deception conducted by FEMA which the quasi leadership of truth movement believes without question. It is about the fact that if this thread is not suported by posts it signifies that the psyops designed by the infiltrators of the US government is working very well.

A lack of posting here will signify that the truth movement is a social movement more controlled by social sensibilities than evidence and reason and that people are willing to give up control over their future to be socially comfortable in the present.

The Twin Towers had a steel reinforced cast concrete tubular core. (http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html) No evidence from 9-11 exists to support the core FEMA states existed.

cruise4

08-06-2008, 07:30 PM

christophera

08-06-2008, 07:53 PM

I don't care. They did it. The details will come out. I have other things to concentrate on. You could be right. NPT could be right. A number of things could be right. What's definitely true is the Official version is a pack of lies. That's enough for me at this stage. The overall conspiracy is more important than 9/11.

Generalizations do not work to increase the credibility or size of the movement for truth. The complete lack of a feasible explanation for the events at the WTC by the movement do not work to increase the credibility or size of the movement for truth.

They both seriously impede any chance of uncovering the conspiracy.

NPT particuarly. It makes a laughing matter, ..............

I'm serious
A LAUGHING MATTER FOR THE PUBLIC TOWARDS THE 9-11 TRUTH MOVEMENT.

cruise4

08-06-2008, 08:15 PM

I'll live with it. The truth is coming out regardless. Knock yourself out. I'm expanding numbers by other methods. This is obviously your forte. :)

christophera

08-06-2008, 08:31 PM

I'll live with it. The truth is coming out regardless. Knock yourself out. I'm expanding numbers by other methods. This is obviously your forte. :)

No, we have no more truth now than we did 5 years ago.

Do you realize that there is a very good chance that the infiltrating perps never planned to permanently get away with 9-11 and only planned to use it to create war with mass profits, ................ then, ................. the event they know about that we don't know about HAPPENS, and we are WAY too busy trying to survive to bother with getting the truth?

You may die with a lie.

dondaz

08-06-2008, 08:33 PM

For me, I have to see the evidence. Forget following a group to fit in. I'd rather the whole world hate me than to compromise my principals just to be in with a certain group of people!

I am reviled and hated by npt across the internet, so much so I have had death threats and all types of stunts pulled against me in order to get me to shut up and accept their bullshit. I don't care. I'm waiting for them to back their mouths up and come sort me out at these events, like they say they are going to do.

No planes hit the twin towers theorists are pulling too many stunts and resort to trouble making against others for them to be real truthers. They have lied to me and decieve and make things up as they go along. These are tactics applied by shills, not truth seekers!

People should stick to what they can prove when it comes to 911.

kingmonkey

08-06-2008, 08:34 PM

Generalizations do not work to increase the credibility or size of the movement for truth. The complete lack of a feasible explanation for the events at the WTC by the movement do not work to increase the credibility or size of the movement for truth.

They both seriously impede any chance of uncovering the conspiracy.

NPT particuarly. It makes a laughing matter, ..............

I'm serious
A LAUGHING MATTER FOR THE PUBLIC TOWARDS THE 9-11 TRUTH MOVEMENT.

So how do you propose we get a"Feasable explanation" when there's no solid evidence and every sub group of 9/11 researchers have conflicting theories that they stick to like glue? There needs to be a core of evidence, substantial or otherwise that everybody agrees on to further the 911 thing.

I agree with the NPT making the whole thing look stoopid. Who's gonna believe that?! Try going up to someone who's pretty much in the dark about 911 and tell them "No planes hit the twin towers, it was a projected hologram", they'll laugh in your face and tell everyone your nuts.

Alot of info and "theories" that abound on the net are just too far out far me to believe. I read and view alot of stuff that I just use as entertainment/conspiritainment, but ultimately take with a pinch of salt.

americana

08-06-2008, 10:49 PM

The Twin Towers had a steel reinforced cast concrete tubular core. (http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html) No evidence from 9-11 exists to support the core FEMA states existed.

In several places, you have noted this, citing a 1990 (?) documentary.

You stated it's missing. Where have you looked for it? Did you contact PBS?

Was the documentary just about the Twin Towers, or other buildings?

Thank you!

true

09-06-2008, 02:54 AM

"No planes hit the twin towers, it was a projected hologram", they'll laugh in your face and tell everyone your nuts.

Right, that's the whole idea. IF there were no planes, you see how well it works for them due to that being the dominant mindset? People laughed in Pteolmy's face when he said the earth wasn't flat.

It's difficult to continuously realize that ALL of your belief patterns are simply inherited from others, who are largely idiots due to inherited belief patterns. When I throw all that crap out and think for myself, I can't possibly see a plane going in there like that. I can however see a hologram on top of a missile in the doctored footage. Feel free to laugh in my face, I might be wrong.

christophera

09-06-2008, 10:23 AM

For me, I have to see the evidence. Forget following a group to fit in. I'd rather the whole world hate me than to compromise my principals just to be in with a certain group of people!

That is the way I feel, but, unfortunately, I have the evidence, although it differs from the movement thinks it has, so they don' want any.

I am reviled and hated by npt across the internet, so much so I have had death threats and all types of stunts pulled against me in order to get me to shut up and accept their bullshit. I don't care. I'm waiting for them to back their mouths up and come sort me out at these events, like they say they are going to do.

Don't don't know what you did to get such threats, but I've got to thank you for having the passion for pushing them that hard. Somebody has got to show them how important it is for us to get the truth, but that it also prove itself out by actually having a function.

I do have developed perspective on them and I cannot say that it is opposed. Something quite telling considering what I allege.

I believe the NPT crowd is largely comprised of MKultra victims. Seeing as they actually cannot make reasonable logic for WHY the perps of the no plane demo would choose to have a backwards impact/fall sequence.

I've asked dave and killtown and their explanations just won't fly.

No planes hit the twin towers theorists are pulling too many stunts and resort to trouble making against others for them to be real truthers. They have lied to me and decieve and make things up as they go along. These are tactics applied by shills, not truth seekers!

People should stick to what they can prove when it comes to 911.

I agree the tactics exclude them from a sincere quest for truth. But, something you are doing which they are conditionally programmed to recognize and react to might be causing the more extreme aspects you decribe. Thanks for bringing it up.

christophera

09-06-2008, 10:40 AM

So how do you propose we get a"Feasable explanation" when there's no solid evidence and every sub group of 9/11 researchers have conflicting theories that they stick to like glue? There needs to be a core of evidence, substantial or otherwise that everybody agrees on to further the 911 thing.

I agree completely. What you've written is comprehensive and has proper logic in a forward looking way. It is exactly where I've been. Unfortunately, as I've said in my last post, I've actually got evidence but that it differs from what the mainstream movement thinks it has, and they don't want any, including explanation.

The feasible explanation I can produce works very well with the evidence.

Dr. Ron Larsen, Phd. physics, Cornell agrees with me and defines my explanation as a "model".

http://libertycalling.com/cbrowndemomodel.htm

I agree with the NPT making the whole thing look stoopid. Who's gonna believe that?! Try going up to someone who's pretty much in the dark about 911 and tell them "No planes hit the twin towers, it was a projected hologram", they'll laugh in your face and tell everyone your nuts.

Alot of info and "theories" that abound on the net are just too far out far me to believe. I read and view alot of stuff that I just use as entertainment/conspiritainment, but ultimately take with a pinch of salt.

Your position is quite reasonable considering none of the quasi leaders or website/video producers actually has an explanation that is comprehensive and works with what evidence does exist.

In fact the plans I know are fake and have evidence they have been digitally manipulated,

http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/A-A-159.revtab.jpg

are being distributed by the quasi leaders even after they've seen that ground zero images also do not match them.

So the question How Easily Are You Deceived and Mislead? might not meaningfully apply to you because you aren't trying to push a given theory, but it does apply to many who are pushing certain information.

Some information is valid, just useless. They key is to find useful information, then get enough people together to use it. Exactly what I've been trying to do but the psyops is heavily targeting the evidence which does exist, or ignoring, then focusing on questionable information such as the plans on the web.

kingmonkey

09-06-2008, 01:11 PM

Right, that's the whole idea. IF there were no planes, you see how well it works for them due to that being the dominant mindset? People laughed in Pteolmy's face when he said the earth wasn't flat.

It's difficult to continuously realize that ALL of your belief patterns are simply inherited from others, who are largely idiots due to inherited belief patterns. When I throw all that crap out and think for myself, I can't possibly see a plane going in there like that. I can however see a hologram on top of a missile in the doctored footage. Feel free to laugh in my face, I might be wrong.

I'm not completely against the NPT depsite what I've said earlier in this thread, but until some evidence comes along, as far as I'm concerned, that's not the way it happened.

That old "they laughed at the earth being round" quote works wether you're right or wrong...Just because someone calls into question your theory, doesn't mean you can compare it to the earth turning out to be round, because you don't know you're right. That quote only works with the beauty of hindsight and the validation of a theory turning out to be correct.

David Icke uses this alot and it always bugs me.

I could say Mickey mouse is the grand designer of the universe, everyone laughs and I say "they laughed at Ptolemy whern he said the world was round"...Does that make the mickey mouse theory right? All it proves is it's always beneficial to keep an open mind.

The fact that I don't believe the NPT isn't because I've inherited some "belief pattern" that says it can't be true, it's because I don't think it is true after looking at the evidence and coming to my own conclusion.

americana

09-06-2008, 01:29 PM

Again, I'd REALLY love to know more about this Twin Towers "documentary"!!!! Is it truly the only source that mentions CONCRETE in the core?

I'm not saying that it's NOT the truth - - but would simply like to know more.

If indeed there IS such a documentary, you know that there are often copies in libraries. I dunno, but it would seem to me that there still could be one (or more) copies floating around!!!

There is a database (cannot for the life of me recall the name at the moment) at the New York Public Library that tells you where you can find various items at libraries around the country.

I have noted SEVERAL documentaries about the WTC/ Twin Towers. (One from 1990 is about the construction of the WTC They do not ALL postdate 9/11. Is it possible that one of THESE might have the information, now suppressed, about this concrete core?

Or, if not, are there no tough librarians who have stated that copies had been seized from the libraries where they work????

Here is ONE such video. I wonder what it says about the construction of the WTC.

higher and higher /

Thomas Friedman; Karl Sabbagh; Nicola Gluckman;
Lynn Bikofsky
1990 English Visual Material : Videorecording :
VHS tape 1 videocassette (58 min.) : sd., col. ; 1/2 in. Boston, Mass.
: WGBH Educational Foundations ;

This final segment chronicles the evolution of the
American skyscraper over the last century and speculates on the
skyscraper of the future. Practical information is presented about the
technologies making super tall structures possible: wind tunnel
technology, steel frame construction, air conditioning, curtain walls,
and elevators.

Availability: Search CATNYP, catalog of New York Public Library
research collections
External Resources: Cite This Item
Find Items About: Skyscraper2Sabbagh, Karl.7WGBH (Television Station
: Boston, Mass.)54Channel Four (Great Britain)31
Title: Skyscraper
higher and higher /
Author(s): Friedman, Thomas.
Sabbagh, Karl.
Gluckman, Nicola.
Bikofsky, Lynn.
Corp Author(s): InCA Films (Firm). ; WGBH (Television Station :
Boston, Mass.) ; Channel Four (Great Britain) ; WGBH Educational
Foundations.
Publication: Boston, Mass. : WGBH Educational Foundations ; InCA
Films,
Year: 1990
Description: 1 videocassette (58 min.) : sd., col. ; 1/2 in.
Language: English
Series: Skyscraper.;
Abstract: This final segment chronicles the evolution of the
American skyscraper over the last century and speculates on the
skyscraper of the future. Practical information is presented about the
technologies making super tall structures possible: wind tunnel
technology, steel frame construction, air conditioning, curtain walls,
and elevators.
SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Skyscrapers -- Designs and construction.

Named Corp: Home Insurance Building (Chicago, Ill.)
Singer Building (New York, N.Y.)
Woolworth Building (New York, N.Y.)
Chrysler Building (New York, N.Y.)
World Trade Center (New York, N.Y.)
Empire State Building (New York, N.Y.)
John Hancock Building (Chicago, Ill.)
Worldwide Plaza (New York, N.Y.)
Sears Tower (Chicago, Ill.)
Genre/Form: Educational/cultural works.
Geographic: New York, N.Y.
Note(s): VHS./ "A Presentation of Films for the Humanities &
Sciences."/ Participants: Don Wescott./ Audience:
General, architectural students, design and construction professionals.
General Info: May be rented from the AIA A-V collection.
Other Titles: Higher and higher.
Responsibility: an InCA production for WGBH Boston and Channel 4
London; executive producer, Thomas Friedman; associate producers,
Nicola Glucksman, Lynn Bikofsky; produced and directed by Karl Sabbagh;
directed by Veronica Young. Series based on an idea by Karl Sabbagh.
written by Thomas Friedman; editor, Daniel Eisenberg.
Material Type: Videorecording (vid); Videocassette (vca); VHS tape
(vhs)
Document Type: Visual Material
Entry: 19920407
Update: 20070212
Accession No: OCLC: 83145186
Database: WorldCat

If "concrete" is a/the smoking gun, vis a vis the collapse of the towers, would sure love to know more, have some hard, cold proof pre-dating 9/11.

cruise4

09-06-2008, 05:00 PM

christophera

09-06-2008, 09:37 PM

Again, I'd REALLY love to know more about this Twin Towers "documentary"!!!! Is it truly the only source that mentions CONCRETE in the core?

I'm not saying that it's NOT the truth - - but would simply like to know more.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040807085840/http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3069641/

‘Painful and Horrible’
The engineer behind the World Trade Center speaks about the structures
The south tower, built with its twin in 1973, collapses on Tuesday

Leslie Robertson, Architect Of The World Trade Center Towers

Still, Robertson, whose firm is responsible for three of the six tallest buildings in the world, feels a sense of pride that the massive towers, supported by a steel-tube exoskeleton and a reinforced concrete core, held up as well as they did—managing to stand for over an hour despite direct hits from two massive commercial jetliners.

Says engineer Robertson, “If they had fallen down immediately, the death counts would have been unimaginable,” he says. “The World Trade Center has performed admirably, and everyone involved in the project should be proud.” The buildings were designed specifically to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707, the largest plane flying in 1966, the year they broke ground on the project.

Below is a link to a PDF published by August Domel Jr. who was at GZ and informed by FEMA engineers in the weeks after 9-11 of the concrete core. He is a certified structural engineer in 12 states. See chapter 2.1.

href="http://www.ncsea.com/downloads/wtcseerp.pdf

August Domel, Jr., Ph.D., S.E., P.E. November 2001

Groundbreaking for construction of the World Trade Center took place on August 5, 1966 Tower One, standing 1368 feet high, was completed in 1970, and Tower Two, at 1362 feet high, was completed in 1972. The structural design for the World Trade Center Towers was done by Skilling, Helle, Christiansen and Robertson. It was designed as a tube building that included a perimeter moment-resisting frame consisting of steel columns spaced on 39-inch centers. The load carrying system was designed so that the steel facade would resist lateral and gravity forces and the interior concrete core would carry only gravity loads.

Dr. Domel received a Ph.D. from the University of Illinois at Chicago in 1988 and a Law Degree from Loyola University in 1992. He is a licensed Structural Engineer and Attorney at Law in the .State of Illinois and a Professional Engineer in twelve states, including the State of New York. Dr. Domel is authorized by the Department of Labor (OSHA) as a 10 and 30 hour construction safety trainer.

Here is a scan of a book which Oxford seems to have removed from those offered to the public, or so I was told when someone looked it up. I was given the scan by seatnineb of the democraticunderground.com in 2003

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/oxfordarchcore.jpg

If indeed there IS such a documentary, you know that there are often copies in libraries. I dunno, but it would seem to me that there still could be one (or more) copies floating around!!!

Or, if not, are there no tough librarians who have stated that copies had been seized from the libraries where they work????

This .mp3 at around 17:50 minutes has a few minutes of description of the confirming contact with a major library and their listing of the documentary, "The Engineering and Construction of the Twin Towers".

6/20/07
http://www.mediafire.com/?syi4xmtikmm
(let me know if this doesn't work. mediafire might be censoring some downloads from my experience)

Dr. Ron Larsen Ph.d talks a little in his web radio show I co hosted with him about former Marine Major Drew Raines efforts to get a copy of a VHS that was found. Copies were unfortunately intercepted.

Certainly there are hundreds of copies, but those who have then are not 9-11 truth seekers and do not know of the FEMA core deception. In order to find them the issue must become a matter that the entire truth movement realizes has potential for opening up a limited re-investigation.

There is a database (cannot for the life of me recall the name at the moment) at the New York Public Library that tells you where you can find various items at libraries around the country.

I have noted SEVERAL documentaries about the WTC/ Twin Towers. (One from 1990 is about the construction of the WTC They do not ALL postdate 9/11. Is it possible that one of THESE might have the information, now suppressed, about this concrete core?

[QUOTE=americana;381051] Here is ONE such video. I wonder what it says about the construction of the WTC.

higher and higher /

Thomas Friedman; Karl Sabbagh; Nicola Gluckman;

If "concrete" is a/the smoking gun, vis a vis the collapse of the towers, would sure love to know more, have some hard, cold proof pre-dating 9/11.

That would be interesting to see. In my searches I found that nearly all descriptions before 9-11 described a concrete core.

christophera

09-06-2008, 09:49 PM

"Do you realize that there is a very good chance that the infiltrating perps never planned to permanently get away with 9-11 and only planned to use it to create war with mass profits, ................ then, ................. the event they know about that we don't know about HAPPENS, and we are WAY too busy trying to survive to bother with getting the truth?"

"I'm near certain of it. I have reached the point where I feel fairly confident 'they' are doing something to us on a 'sub-concious' level. The question is 'what' exactly. 9/11 is only one of many sub-concious programming elements. It's the program, those using it and those writing it that I feel we need to get at.

From this viewpoint anyone attempting to corral investigation or thought down singular avenue's is somewhat suspect.

Most importantly I feel that there is a process we are caught up in and that 9-11 was essentially a death ritual and that by being afraid or siletn we participate. Our participation assures that the rest of Americans will be unknowingly used to further a very dark agends that has a calamitous ending for us all.

Of course it is true that we need to know those valid things that relate to the spectrum of evidence or "motive, means and opportunity". We should also consider "over information" as a method of constant distraction and non focus. To counter "over information" logic must be used to discern useful information from useless info.

There is a great deal of valid information that is also useless. Info that should not be forgotten because it may some day become useful. There is invalid useless information as well. We should idetify how it is being used to deceive and mislead us then separate it from our sincere debate.

NPT has that quality.

Nukes at the WTC has that quality

DEW has that quality.

Some examples of valid but presently useless information are as follows.

Passports

Cellphones

Flight 93 questions

Standown questions

Flight patterns

Living hijackers

Traffic Controller recordings destroyed

Put options

What makes much of the above useless is the fact that it requires an accountable government to act on the meanings of the information. We don't have that now. Catch 22.

Those are just a few. They may have some use in outreach in a "one on one" contact in order to raise questions, but here they just congest the space we might utilize to develop support for vaild and useful infomation.

true

10-06-2008, 03:49 AM

That old "they laughed at the earth being round" quote works wether you're right or wrong...Just because someone calls into question your theory, doesn't mean you can compare it to the earth turning out to be round, because you don't know you're right. That quote only works with the beauty of hindsight and the validation of a theory turning out to be correct.

Well, I didn't use that to say "I am absolutely right", but rather to suggest that science and the conventional ideas about things are often dead wrong. It's hard to keep that in mind, it totally sucks, but we are just generally not good at getting to the absolute truth. Earth might actually be hollow..

It's clear to me that A) these people _really_ knew what they were doing, B) they really needed those buildings to fall, C) they really needed you and I to buy their crap for a long enough time and D) CNN is not our friend through all of this. Obviously D bothers me the most because that's the only way C, B and A can be carried out. I just can't understand these media types, could you imagine sitting down in front of a camera, you know (most of :)) what actually happened, and you have to sit there and lie through your teeth to the entire world about the massacre of thousands to get a lousy paycheck? Talk about feeding your shadow!

The concept of information warfare and using the press as a kind of weapon or tool is very valid I think, how do you feel about that? IF NP is in fact the right angle, I'd look for it to be vehemently suppressed. ;)

montag

10-06-2008, 04:00 AM

I could say Mickey mouse is the grand designer of the universe, everyone laughs and I say "they laughed at Ptolemy whern he said the world was round"...
I feckin' knew it! Damn rascally mouse..:rolleyes:

mynameis

10-06-2008, 04:02 AM

IF NP is in fact the right angle, I'd look for it to be vehemently suppressed. ;)

Or a race for slow people who don't process information well ala P.T. Barnum's famous quote. Here's a case study of one no plane theory leader.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVn4dWT1Vrc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVn4dWT1Vrc[

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRj-S-Ktm5Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRj-S-Ktm5Y

true

10-06-2008, 04:09 AM

mynameis

10-06-2008, 04:18 AM

okay well can you offer a good explination for how 20mm thick airplane aluminum merged into ~15cm thick steel? it simply just can't happen! If you can demonstrate a beer can going through sheet metal I might buy it.

And go find me those 4 plane engines while you're at it!

Sure concrete is porous and holds air. Air and porous materials fragment on impact at high speeds. Watch any airplane crash test. WTC concrete outer structure is also made with aluminum derived concrete. The WTC is not designed to absorb damage. The steel framework on the outer areas act like a mosquito mesh. One architect on the buildings stated that it would be like poking a pencil into metal screen door or window screen. There is no absorption of energy where the law of motion is observed:

An object that is not moving will not move until a net force acts upon it.

An object that is in motion will not change its velocity (accelerate) until a net force acts upon it.

Someone says it looks like a cartoon, which shows their level of knowledge about kinetics. Do you think straw has never penetrated concrete? What do you think about that scenario? Is that a merger with steel (cartoon)? Okay, I got confused...with someone else stating cartoon. It wasn't you.

christophera

10-06-2008, 10:09 AM

It's clear to me that A) these people _really_ knew what they were doing, B) they really needed those buildings to fall, C) they really needed you and I to buy their crap for a long enough time and D) CNN is not our friend through all of this. Obviously D bothers me the most because that's the only way C, B and A can be carried out. I just can't understand these media types, could you imagine sitting down in front of a camera, you know (most of :)) what actually happened, and you have to sit there and lie through your teeth to the entire world about the massacre of thousands to get a lousy paycheck? Talk about feeding your shadow!

Excellent logic! Exactly mine back in 2003 when I was telling the peace marchers in Santa Barbara California, where I live, that 9-11 is the key to our futures and the best target is not government, but media. They of course don't listen to people that are not powerful and promoted by power.

The concept of information warfare and using the press as a kind of weapon or tool is very valid I think, how do you feel about that? IF NP is in fact the right angle, I'd look for it to be vehemently suppressed. ;)

Damm, you're good. Now, do a google search for "concrete core" and see how much opposition I get on message boards. Count my posts. HAH, I bet you lose track before you get to 20,000.

christophera

10-06-2008, 10:16 AM

Okay, I got confused...with someone else stating cartoon. It wasn't you.

Since Mickey mouse has already been mentioned in this thread, I know who will pilot the plane in the cartoon I use. Goofy flying a plane and hitting a tower to demonstrate a logical impact fall direction that WAS the plan before the hijacker of flight 11 decided to trash the plan. (The rad turn of 175 in its approach evidences this)

The cartoon relates to the demo sequence and pattern. Imagine goofy at the controls, he impacts the tower and fo course flys right through it. The bottom portion tilts along his direction of travel at the top and the top portion tilts at the bottom in the planes direction.

Work backwards from the directions the towers tilted at demo.

Tower 1 had it's top tile and fall south and the lower portion fell north. Meaning flight 11 was supposed to hit the south side.

Tower 2 had a small portion fall west with the major lower portion falling east, meaning 175 was supposed to hit the west side.

mynameis

10-06-2008, 12:26 PM

Since Mickey mouse has already been mentioned in this thread, I know who will pilot the plane in the cartoon I use. Goofy flying a plane and hitting a tower to demonstrate a logical impact fall direction that WAS the plan before the hijacker of flight 11 decided to trash the plan. (The rad turn of 175 in its approach evidences this)

The cartoon relates to the demo sequence and pattern. Imagine goofy at the controls, he impacts the tower and fo course flys right through it. The bottom portion tilts along his direction of travel at the top and the top portion tilts at the bottom in the planes direction.

Work backwards from the directions the towers tilted at demo.

Tower 1 had it's top tile and fall south and the lower portion fell north. Meaning flight 11 was supposed to hit the south side.

Tower 2 had a small portion fall west with the major lower portion falling east, meaning 175 was supposed to hit the west side.

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/lol-46383.jpg

At the comment above. We should perhaps open a new field for fake cartoon physics in real world application for children. lol.

true

11-06-2008, 12:44 AM

yeah and you can teach it with your concept of aluminum airplanes melting into steel buildings! :eek:

mynameis

11-06-2008, 01:02 AM

yeah and you can teach it with your concept of aluminum airplanes melting into steel buildings! :eek:

Here's one concept. Planes are not entirely made of aluminum. There's cartoon pixelmetals (/joke).

christophera

11-06-2008, 01:37 AM

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/lol-46383.jpg

At the comment above. We should perhaps open a new field for fake cartoon physics in real world application for children. lol.

Are you saying that the top of WTC 1 did not fall south while the lower portion fell north.

AND

Are you saying a small part of the top of the WTC 2 tower did not fall west while the bottom piece fell east?

christophera

11-06-2008, 01:38 AM

yeah and you can teach it with your concept of aluminum airplanes melting into steel buildings! :eek:

Do you really think that planes melt?

mynameis

11-06-2008, 02:42 AM

Are you saying that the top of WTC 1 did not fall south while the lower portion fell north.

AND

Are you saying a small part of the top of the WTC 2 tower did not fall west while the bottom piece fell east?

What are you talking about? I never even gave any statements about any part of the top of either building or what ever it is you're getting at. Because I didn't ask any question or give any statement, in reference to you inquiry, why don't you restate your question in a clear manner that is understandable? My lol if that is what you are referring to is the statement of cartoon tom foolery of how some think that the laws of physics were suspended in the conservation of momentum.

christophera

11-06-2008, 02:59 AM

What are you talking about? I never even gave any statements about any part of the top of either building or what ever it is you're getting at. Because I didn't ask any question or give any statement, in reference to you inquiry, why don't you restate your question in a clear manner that is understandable? My lol if that is what you are referring to is the statement of cartoon tom foolery of how some think that the laws of physics were suspended in the conservation of momentum.

I think I should apologize, I don't get online humor sometimes. Did you indeed intend a funny?

I like the kitty mug.

Here's the best action cat I could find.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/9654/002donnacat3vm1.gif

mynameis

11-06-2008, 03:11 AM

I think I should apologize, I don't get online humor sometimes. Did you indeed intend a funny?

I like the kitty mug.

Here's the best action cat I could find.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/9654/002donnacat3vm1.gif

No worries. It happens to me sometimes. When I'm tired and reading I skip over sentences from grogginess. I was joking about the theories of cartoonishness, if that is your question.

kblood

11-06-2008, 03:32 AM

Im just still surprised its still being discussed how exactly it was done? Isnt the WHY somewhat more important and leaving the how rather irrevelevant, unless it could lead to real proof as to who did it, with names and such?

I think it most likely that there was explosives planted in the buildings, and they somehow had planes crashing into them. Maybe there even were actual terrorists who thought they were serving some holy war, or maybe it was just some other kind of brainwashing personas doing it.

In the end, it is the single most important event, leading to the US war for oil, and getting just enough support from the people to go to war again. Today they have Iraq and all its oil under US control, and the oil prices easily inflatable. Also they got Iran next on their list, and have had that for over half a decade by now. There have been many posts on this forum this last year about Iran being the next target. I really dont watch news much, because most the time its just a ah, so they did that now... thought they might have done that earlier or later than that... If I could bother checking it out, there is even a few countries more on the take over list. Seems the main reason for the wars is the fact that these countries has no debt to the World Bank, or the banks affiliated with it, therefore not under control by the bankers. So they simply enforce control over them instead, take all incomes they have from them, and make sure that by doing so, not only do they get another source of income, but get alot more profit from the ones they have already.

How many years have the oil prices been going up now? How many millions even billions more have been won by this more than doubling of the price on oil?

Other than this, war and maybe presidential elections, is a great way to get our focus away from stuff like Codex Alimentarious, making sure that there is much better control over what we eat. Not just in Europe, but through trade legislations and through fines, it will affect the whole world. They aim to make sure we get a minimum of vitamins and minerals. Anyone noticed how there have been news about vitamins actually being bad for us?

Yea, dont worry about all the sugar, alchol, drugs, sugar tasting chemicals and all the other stuff we eat. Vitamins is something to worry about :rolleyes:

And all this is just some of the stuff going on.

As for 9/11... why exactly didnt Osama Bin Laden admit being the one behind the attack? Wasnt it something he would be proud of? Also why did Bush stop thinking him relevant after bombing his country for a while. Nah, those millions worth of bombs they spent on that was just for show anyway. Saddam was much worse, he hides weapons of mass destruction and is mean to his people and tortures as well. But really, Saddam was in fact by far not the worst dictator we had at the time, and still isnt. The amount of bullshit lies they used to go into war with Iraq was amazing. All of it seemed to fail, and still people said, yea, Its good that we save Iraq from that evil dictator.... right. Much better that we kill thousands of people in Iraq instead of letting Saddam do it.

And then his execution was aired all over the world... since when did we have rituals like this? Is it just me or is the US and its way getting sicker by the year, or even month?

At least we dont have to be bored :)

mynameis

11-06-2008, 04:35 AM

christophera

11-06-2008, 10:34 AM

Im just still surprised its still being discussed how exactly it was done? Isnt the WHY somewhat more important and leaving the how rather irrevelevant, unless it could lead to real proof as to who did it, with names and such?

There is a natural sequence to an investigation. Our public investigation has been sabotaged by a psyops, so it is quite disorganized and disjointed.

The natural sequence of determination is:

1)What happened? (This is still unanswered)

2)How did it happen? (Sometimes when "what happened" is not exactly clear, a complete examination of "how" different explanation might be executed which fits with all evidence, can, by the process of elimination, provide the answer to "what happened")

3)Who did it? (The even of "how" requires certain capabilities to be possessed by the perpetrator. An examination of, "motive, means and opportunity" is in order.)

I think it most likely that there was explosives planted in the buildings, and they somehow had planes crashing into them. Maybe there even were actual terrorists who thought they were serving some holy war, or maybe it was just some other kind of brainwashing personas doing it.

This event,

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corefacesexploding.jpg

is far too uniform for planted explosives. The total breakage of concrete is not possible with planted explosives. It is not possible with drilling holes in concrete. What we see requires BOTH, optimum placement and distribution. Nothing short of that will produce such complete breakage. Turning concrete into Sand and gravel (http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/2001/10/wtc/pdrm1943.jpg)l is VERY difficult with explosives. You tend to end up with large chunks. Only drilling holes every 2 feet or so could provide such an effect. That, .......... was not possible under conditions.

The beliefs of Muslims as they have been persecuted sinnce the crusades creates the perfect psychological background for suicidal pilots. Following a lifetime of brainwashing by various elements, such people could act believing they were doing what they were doing for completely different reason than actually existed.

As far as punishment, there is an old Hindu axiom, "Will you chase the arsonist rather than putting out the fire destroying your house."

America, or the western mentality of ignorance of the human unconscious, the part that gets brainwashed, has INVITED the infiltration of its government. The ignorance was intentionally caused, but America went for it and the whole enchilada of media deception. See the first part of the dumbing down of America. This, ....... is a very informative interview with Norman Dodd who was asked to estimate its cost in the 1930's by major global foundations.

http://www.realityzone.com/hiddenagenda2.html

We asked for it in many ways.

There is a process which is underway. Like the fire in the house, NOTHING is more important than stopping it at this time, as far as I can logically deduce.

kblood

12-06-2008, 07:07 PM

Seems to me the government didnt get infiltrated, it started out corrupt. The NWO goes way back to 1766 at least, where they made a obviously quite succesfull plan to control the world through democracy. The NWO probably doesnt need the government to be a democracy to be able to control it, mostly it seems to need to have control of their finances and that usually is enough.

Plans to attack Iraq was in place before 9/11, and there is documented proof of that. There was very clear indications of it, although I dont remember which documents it could be seen in. I heard about it at

http://www.thealternativeview.co.uk/

when I went there this summer. They had some very good proof of the NWO agenda, signed letters and documents about its intentions, and then the obvious things they have let to today. There was many parts to it, control the food because then you control the people. They have codex allimentarius for that. I cant spell that correct, and dont really intend to :p Of course the Codex is just the next step in that plan, since control of our food is already quite well established.

Also they control our oppinions with terroist events like 9/11. It is all there in newsletters in papers, and political documents written by very influential politicians in the US over the years. About how to make the health care system make sure that we pay them lots of money to get healthier, even though they are doing the opposite, and when we dont want or support going to war, they have several ways of changing that.

It is wierd how the concrete got pulverised, but then I guess we dont know what kind of explosives were used. Also some say that the twin towers were actually built for this very purpose, although that sounds a bit over the top, but then otherwise they must have used their scalarwave weapons or something like that to accomplish it instead. I would think they give that kind of effect.

mynameis

12-06-2008, 07:14 PM

This event,

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corefacesexploding.jpg

is far too uniform for planted explosives. The total breakage of concrete is not possible with planted explosives. It is not possible with drilling holes in concrete. What we see requires BOTH, optimum placement and distribution. Nothing short of that will produce such complete breakage.

No this is uniform.

http://nds2.content.mosh.nokia.com/entity/5/3A61EA1760B4D304E040050AEE0478B9/wtc-7-small.gif

edelweiss pirate

12-06-2008, 08:15 PM

What are (or were) the radiation levels at ground zero?

christophera

12-06-2008, 09:01 PM

No this is uniform.

http://nds2.content.mosh.nokia.com/entity/5/3A61EA1760B4D304E040050AEE0478B9/wtc-7-small.gif

Yes it's uniform, but it has the uniformity of a dropping box (impossible with a demo in the case of 7).

The uniformity of a blast wave of debris as seen below is extremely difficult to create under any conditions. Under all conditions it requires perfect placement and distribution of high explosives. something not possible with mere planted explosives. Even a demolition job drilling holes for months can't get the correct location and distribution.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corefacesexploding.jpg

americana

12-06-2008, 09:10 PM

It is interesting to note that the FREEDOM TOWER uses a CONCRETE CORE.

christophera

12-06-2008, 09:43 PM

It is interesting to note that the FREEDOM TOWER uses a CONCRETE CORE.

And WTC 7 is rebuilt with a concrete core.

http://concreteproducts.com/mag/concrete_safety_integrity_key/index.html

Buildings with the proportions of the Twins and the replacement tower MUST have a concrete core because steel flexes too much in those proportions.

Remember the Tacoma narrows bridge going down in a 42 MPH wind. Oscillation with the flex of long steel members, no matter how they are braced is a big problem.

The WTC 2 concrete core.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/southcorestands.gif

mynameis

13-06-2008, 02:38 AM

Yes it's uniform, but it has the uniformity of a dropping box (impossible with a demo in the case of 7).

The uniformity of a blast wave of debris as seen below is extremely difficult to create under any conditions. Under all conditions it requires perfect placement and distribution of high explosives. something not possible with mere planted explosives. Even a demolition job drilling holes for months can't get the correct location and distribution.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corefacesexploding.jpg

That's because the outer core shell and floors above were weakened. If there were demolitions the core or truss failures due to stresses on the superstructure, each piece of material will act as an independent form of modulus material in a collapse scenario. Precise demolitions which resemble WTC 7 are not represented in WTC 1 or 2's collapse there is not separate point of damage above or below floors except the scooped out shape some presume to be from the collapse of the nearest tower.

christophera

13-06-2008, 07:16 PM

That's because the outer core shell and floors above were weakened.

Concrete when it is weakened will just crack, not turn into Sand and gravel (http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/2001/10/wtc/pdrm1943.jpg).

In this image here, the concrete which was between the interior box column, termed such because it was the inner wall of the exterior steel framework, and the first row of elevator guide rail supports, has detonated and shredded all of the light steel. I didn't annotate the image. A poster trying to di the concrete did.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff290/gamolon/crossbracingannotation.jpg

This image here defeated their position that the plans from silverstein were correct because there is a 3x7 hallway running the length of the heavy core wall base that did not detonate. The silverstein plans show an elevator there.

core wall at its base (http://i30.tinypic.com/11qgyzd.jpg)

kblood

13-06-2008, 08:47 PM

As I wrote before, some say that this was planned before these towers were built, said to be because they need a way to demolish a building before building it. Building something that cant be taken down again could become a problem I guess. Still, if the intention from the beginning was to make something like 9/11 possible, then everything we have been told about how those buildings were built might be a lie, and the fact being that they never did have to drill holes to those demolition charges.

Still, those buildings ought to have left quite a mountain, and from what I have seen and heard, most of these towers seemed to just evaporate during the explosion, or am I wrong?

mynameis

13-06-2008, 10:17 PM

Concrete when it is weakened will just crack, not turn into Sand and gravel (http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/2001/10/wtc/pdrm1943.jpg).

In this image here, the concrete which was between the interior box column, termed such because it was the inner wall of the exterior steel framework, and the first row of elevator guide rail supports, has detonated and shredded all of the light steel. I didn't annotate the image. A poster trying to di the concrete did.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff290/gamolon/crossbracingannotation.jpg

This image here defeated their position that the plans from silverstein were correct because there is a 3x7 hallway running the length of the heavy core wall base that did not detonate. The silverstein plans show an elevator there.

core wall at its base (http://i30.tinypic.com/11qgyzd.jpg)

Oh really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeLtYTsBfqY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeLtYTsBfqY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfi0_5HIrmo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfi0_5HIrmo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1qgx95SFds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1qgx95SFds

What day was the picture taken? Who took it and when?

harris999

14-06-2008, 12:26 AM

I believe things based on fact, and there are alot more facts saying that 9-11 was an inside job, few things:

- The smaller building called build 10 (or something) that collapsed for NO reason.

- The towers were built to withstand planes flying into them. DOnt you find it abit strange that two tower built to WITHSTAND planes, fall down due to a plane crashing into them?

- Explosions? why did people here explosions?

- Why did the live coverage on the tv, FADE to black TWICE on LIVE TV?? hiding something? something they dont want us to see? Bear in mind fade to black nearly never happens, and it just happened to happen twice just as the planes hit the towers.

- Apparently the steel girders couldnt melt by jet fuel alone, how did they melt?

- How do they explain the crimp in building 10? its a CLEAR sign of a controlled demolition. As it causes the building to colapse in on itself

- Where are the planes that crashed into the building? but yet a passport was found with only a few burn marks belonging to one of the accused highjackers? If a passport could survive, then surely a peice of the plane would too?

- What was going on in the empty floor? appartently there were reports of movement and machinery being moved around? (sorry forgot the floor number) yet the floor was offlimits and suposed to be empty. Planting explosives perhaps?

- How was a hijaked plane even allowed to crash into the twin towers in the first place? Surely with there many billions, they would have someone seeing if a plane goes off course, and would take it down before it was even a threat. Appartently all the fighter jets were playing war games but what kind of airforce sends ALL of thier fighters on triaining exercises, leaving thier country wide open for attack? isnt it just abit of coincidence that just as they go on the war games, america is a victim of a terrorist attack.

- The guy who suposedly crashed into the pentagon did a 360 degree tun in a boeing passenger plane. This manoeuver is considered impossible by many top pilots and the guy flying the plane had trouble flying a 2 seater single engined plane. So how in the hell could be do such a complex maneouver in a jumbo jet?

- why did they both collapse in on themselves in EXACTLY the same way? another coincedence?

You see, the anti truth movement blames all of the inconsistences on Coincedence. And in my expeirience, when its something as big as 9-11, there is no such thing as coincedice.

Just my two cents, if you have real hard proof to any of the questions i mentions, id be happy to listen to it and maybe even change my mind on the whole thing. But you are going to need alot of evidence to explain all the inconsistences, as i only mentioned a few of them. There are so many more questions that need answers.

edelweiss pirate

14-06-2008, 07:26 PM

christophera

15-06-2008, 02:37 AM

Hello harris999,

Your list of items has a quality that I feel is important to comment on. Basically you've asked some good questions, However, we have a situation of many good questions and points, which if we could get them answered or addressed it would be great. Unfortunately, without an accountable government, much of it will not be addressed meaning that the space occupied by the information is wasted IF other information has greater potential usage. I'm going to rearrange the list to reflect how critical this is.

I believe things based on fact, and there are alot more facts saying that 9-11 was an inside job, few things:

- The smaller building called build 10 (or something) that collapsed for NO reason.

- The towers were built to withstand planes flying into them. DOnt you find it abit strange that two tower built to WITHSTAND planes, fall down due to a plane crashing into them?

- Why did the live coverage on the tv, FADE to black TWICE on LIVE TV?? hiding something? something they dont want us to see? Bear in mind fade to black nearly never happens, and it just happened to happen twice just as the planes hit the towers.

- How do they explain the crimp in building 10? its a CLEAR sign of a controlled demolition. As it causes the building to colapse in on itself

- Where are the planes that crashed into the building? but yet a passport was found with only a few burn marks belonging to one of the accused highjackers? If a passport could survive, then surely a peice of the plane would too?

- What was going on in the empty floor? appartently there were reports of movement and machinery being moved around? (sorry forgot the floor number) yet the floor was offlimits and suposed to be empty. Planting explosives perhaps?

- How was a hijaked plane even allowed to crash into the twin towers in the first place? Surely with there many billions, they would have someone seeing if a plane goes off course, and would take it down before it was even a threat. Appartently all the fighter jets were playing war games but what kind of airforce sends ALL of thier fighters on triaining exercises, leaving thier country wide open for attack? isnt it just abit of coincidence that just as they go on the war games, america is a victim of a terrorist attack.

- The guy who suposedly crashed into the pentagon did a 360 degree tun in a boeing passenger plane. This manoeuver is considered impossible by many top pilots and the guy flying the plane had trouble flying a 2 seater single engined plane. So how in the hell could be do such a complex maneouver in a jumbo jet?

The above questions/issues can only be addressed with an accountable government. Someday, hopefully, we can see them addressed. Until then, they should not be forgotten. They should be compiled by each person and saved, or better yet, perhaps transmitted to a 9-11 truth organization with a request to archive them and make the link available on their index page. If they were to communicate with each other and make their lists uniform, then the newbies would be updated on the full breadth of issues, but, the 9-11 non profits should be focusing the public on the most useful information towards compelling some type of new investigation.

- Explosions? why did people here explosions?

- why did they both collapse in on themselves in EXACTLY the same way? another coincedence?

- Apparently the steel girders couldnt melt by jet fuel alone, how did they melt?

The above 3 issues deal with things that we can deal with to some degree or use within our public quest for truth to motivate people to join us. Actually, all of the top list could be mentioned in outreach but are not elements that should be focused on by the movement at large.

Of those 3, the last describing "steel girders" is something that we the public can completely utilize to show that the general public should be outraged at as they are deceived by FEMA. There were no steel core columns in the core area. There were elevator guide rail supports that are being misrepresented as "core columns", but because they are never seen in images of 9-11, it is very clear they did not have enough strength to even stand in the core unsupported. Here are a couple of images that should show the steel core columns if they existed. What is seen is the core, or parts of it that did exist as a steel reinforced cast concrete tube.

When Americans learn that FEMA misrepresented the towers design to; the 9-11 commission and NIST, they will take action.

You see, the anti truth movement blames all of the inconsistences on Coincedence. And in my expeirience, when its something as big as 9-11, there is no such thing as coincedice.

Just my two cents, if you have real hard proof to any of the questions i mentions, id be happy to listen to it and maybe even change my mind on the whole thing. But you are going to need alot of evidence to explain all the inconsistences, as i only mentioned a few of them. There are so many more questions that need answers.

Yes. there are many questions. However, we must compel our fellow Americans to take an interest. I would like to see the truth movement unify in an awareness of this and collectively approach the 9-11 truth organizations to make a static list of all of these matters that we can refer to rather than congesting our discussion with them.

Do any of use besides myself perceive a need for this? Are any willing, besides myself , to organize and do this?

Doing this counteracts the deceptions and misleading of our movement.

christophera

16-06-2008, 10:29 AM

It was an inside job. The question is how they demolished them.

Anyone any info on nuclear radiation levels... One of the 9-11 vids hints at a small nuke being used to pulverise the foundations. There is a huge boom and dust rises from ground level shortly before they collapse.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4563604978641682920&q=9+11+eyewitness&ei=EP9TSM-_JoyqiwLwqOjgCg&hl=en

The scientists confer that there is inadequate signs of radiation to consider a nuke. Apparently a cobalt, ....... 60 I think is completely missing from any of the steel samples and that is an absolute with fission.

Check Dr. Ron Larsen,

<a href="http://libertycalling.com/">http://libertycalling.com/</a>

Ph.d in physics. He might have an .mp3 of an interview that addresses that. He and Frank Greening who is an experienced mechanical engineer in nuclear power development concurred that the levels would be very high in the vicinity and the steel would show it. It doesn't.

Nukes cannot be delayed, the entire even was a super event of delays.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5860825099435530591&q=5860825099435530591&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Notice the uniform flattened "V" shape wrapped around the building corner as the detonation descend. Engineers specified that the tops of concrete pours have opposing high point and low points to give resitence to torsion. That "V" matches the angle of the inspection ports cast into the inside of the concrete core wall wherein the "special corrosion resistant and vibration resistant coating" was. The rebar with the green coating on it so thick the concrete contractors doubted the concrete would grip the bar properly.

The rebar (no steel core columns) left after the spire fell (quite a bit taller and different structure) from the 1990 PBS documentary (now missing, FIND IT) titled "The Engineering and Construction of the Twin Towers." 2 hours. Notice there is NOTHING in the core area to the right of those thin vertical, arching elements. Rebar is what it is. Three inch high tensile steel rebar, part chromium, precision welded, whos "special plastic coating" coating did not detonate. Horizontal bar did detonate and removed the concrete leaving the vertical bar standing.

http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/spire_dust-3.jpg

Here is an explanation for every primary phenomena of 9-11 at the WTC with completly feasible methods. Cast concrete precision engineered explosive container. Yea, ..........

free fall (http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm)
total pulverization (http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/collapse%20update/collapsed%20to%20dust.mpg)
superfine, heated particulate (http://www.tiny.cc/oonyg)
smooth, square cut column ends x the 1,000's (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/shearedboxcolumns.gif)
heavy steel assemblies heaved hundreds of feet (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc1plumecascade.jpg)

The FEMA and the steel core column lie cannot be used to explain anything.

Support for the steel core columns is support for the impossible to obscure the possible.

What happened was better than a demolition, it was BUILT TO DEMOLISH.

All five of the above phenomena are feasibly explained and NONE of those who believe in the FEMA lie can feasibly explain even one.

free fall (http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm)
Concrete can be fractured instantly to fall freely by a small amount of properly placed explosives. With C4 coated rebar and C4 poured into the floor corrugations that also acted as cutting charges for the interior box columns, the only full height columns that existed, free fall was assured. The security phone lines were used to distribute an audio tone to digital counters on every floor and every 40 foot of core. Floors were timed with 75 millisecond delays and core sections of 40 foot at 300 milliseconds.

total pulverization (http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/collapse%20update/collapsed%20to%20dust.mpg)
The above free fall explanation takes care of the building but it needs to be said that when the floors blow and the 300 milliseconds delay of the core blast occurs, the contents of the building are subjected to an outward blast of hard stone aggregates that shred everything and blow it out the windows explaining the 3-5cm bone fragments on roofs 400 feet away.

superfine, heated particulate (http://www.tiny.cc/oonyg)
With an engineered explosive container made from concrete having the explosive coating on the centralized rebar, the pressures from optimum containment are absolutely maximized. Optimized pressures create a maximum shock wave lending to the total pulverization described in the above paragraph but also creating the 10-100 micron sized particles that are super heated to rise and form the distinctive pyroclastic flow. This also causes some of the iron of the rebar to be bonded to molecules of silica and calcium as seen in the dust analysis.

smooth, square cut column ends x the 1,000's (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/shearedboxcolumns.gif)
The C4 filled corrugations died out into special corner plates that were described in the 1990 documentary as stiffeners for the floor to column joint. There were 6 plates per column, installed in 2 layers all the way around the tower every 3rd floor made from tempered steel, 3/8 thick I think. If these were high pressure gas guides a collapsing plane of high pressure gas would surround the column and slice through it performing as an optimized cutting charge built into the floors (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html#anchor1233383). Good evidence is shown with a ruptured column (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/explorupturedcolumn.gif). This also provides a very good explanation for the large quantity of iron microspheres as dark columns of iron particulate seen in images are blown out the tops of the severed but still standing interior box columns inside the clouds of debris in the surrounding demolition. (http://mouv4x8.club.fr/11Sept01/A0069b_3_towerexplo1_explosion_below.jpg)

heavy steel assemblies heaved hundreds of feet (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc1plumecascade.jpg)
Some of the cutting charges failed due to exposure to bad weather during construction. When this happened, large assemblies were intact and the webs of floor "I" beams against the core; still connected to floor beams going out to the perimeter columns, still connected by spandrel plates in the 3 story panels delivered for assembly; were subected to the expanding debris wave of the concrete core detonating which cause a billowing of the web of an "I" beam showing huge pressure applied horizontally (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/pre.cut.salvage.box.column.jpg)

Every phenomena explained in detail. All it depends upon is the infiltration of the US government before 1966 by a faction capable and secrecy adequate to design and construct such building for the purpose of eventual demolition.

americana

17-06-2008, 12:15 AM

From an article in The Wall Street Journal, September 26, 2001, pg B8
"Attacks Put Asia's Love of Skyscrapers to the Test" by John Krich

The article deals with 6 skyscrapers planned then that would be tower than the WTC.

Here's the very telling quote, and I'll give the whole paragraph for context.
"Making Asia's skyscrapers attack-proof is impossible. Nonetheless, Asian developers brag about the tougher features of their towers. Japan's strict seismic safety standards helped high-rises hold up reasonably well even during the Kobe earthquake. Hong Kong's building codes require a far more substantial core of concrete than was built into the World Trade Center."

In other words, it would SEEM that there WAS a concrete core at the WTC, at least according to the Wall Street Journal in September of 2001.

cruise4

17-06-2008, 01:13 AM

I suspect you just made someone's year :D

christophera

17-06-2008, 11:46 AM

christophera

18-06-2008, 07:25 PM

ronisron

18-06-2008, 09:22 PM

christophera

19-06-2008, 10:04 AM

I don't know if it really matters if there were holograms, or remote flown planes. That's secondary. What is important is that the towers were obviously demo'd. There are more than enough ways to broach that subject. The how's and why's they did it are what's speculative. To advance a cause? Sure, the PNAC needed a catalyst to launch an offensive against the middle east. Just for oil? That's part of it, as was getting big contracts for Halliburton and the Bin Laden owned construction firm. Operation Northwoods is a great document to throw at disbelievers.

I know some of you are much further along than basic acceptance that maybe, perhaps 9/11 wasn't brought about by Osama. But it is important, and earthshaking for some to realize this. It opens up a myriad of possibilities to what was a closed mind. If someone can accept that this was an "inside job", then that means these folks are likely to do just about ANYTHING. Again, holograms or real planes is secondary. Just stick to what you can prove if you're so inclined. I enjoy thinking of the possibilities that it was holographic projection, myself. It certainly doesn't taint the rest of the info for me. However the smokescreen was laid is not that important. It's what the smokescreen was attempting to hide that is important.

The misleading is about distracting the truth movement with information that will compromise the movements image and how it is perceived by other Americans.

The people that are important here are the people that don't understand the massive inequities, inconsistencies, impossibilities that the official story, reaction and agenda present and how 9-11 threatens their futures. We must conduct ourselves in ways that encourage them to want to examine the information and understand what did happen.

Allowing ourselves to be mislead and distracted from anything but the most useful of information is a dis service to us and them. It endangers our democracy and this republic, what's left of it.

christophera

20-06-2008, 01:10 AM

christophera

21-06-2008, 10:04 AM

christophera

22-06-2008, 10:11 AM

When guiliani took the WTC plans and courts would not force the return of the public documents and silverstein provided WTC scanned filed to S. Jones, a serious path of deception was taken by the 9-11 truth movement.

Digital anomalies caused by digital compression of graphics appear in the revision tables showing the revision tables have been falsified to make the preliminary plans rejected by Minoru Yamasaki appear at though the towers were actually constructed in that way by showing what looks like extensive review and revision.

In reality is was a steel reinforced cast concrete tube.

The below zooms show the zoomed parts of the revision tables. The url has the sheet number in it so you can search on line and view the plans at the major 9-11 sites and see for your self. The plans are doctored.

http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/wtc1rev.tabAA-139.jpg
http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/A-A-159.revtab.jpg
http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/gwtc1rev.tab99.anoma.gif
http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/gwtc1rev.tab141.anoma.DBL.gif
http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/gwtc1rev.tab140.anoma.gif
http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/gwtc1rev.tab139.anoma.gif

christophera

22-06-2008, 09:07 PM

A number of people can perform as a hypnotic subjects with childhood training. Such training simply amounts to repeated contacts which create reinforced memory barriers exploiting hyperamnesia and instincts within INFERENCE ONE (http://members.tripod.com/truthasaur/2emo6.html) which is a fully valid inference having profound impacts on the realizations of the potentials of post hypnotic control.

christophera

23-06-2008, 09:52 AM

The fact of MKultra means that a fairly large number of Americans could have been conditionally post hypnotically instructed to react to a common condition imposed on them all. A condition described to them at childhood.

In the case of 9-11, instrcutions that read like this would work very well.

When the towers in new york city fall to the ground, you will begin to think that men in black planted nuclear bombs in the towers. No matter what anybody says, you will never be able to think that there is any other reason that such strong buildings could come down that fast. Then you will begin to know that is excatly what brought the towers down. Then you will feel that you must get on every computer connection that you can find and tell people, warn them, or you will not feel safe.

Hallucinations of all types are easily created with hypnosis. Either seeing things that are there, or not seeing things that are there.

http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/human121.jpg
(From "Human Behavior" by Bernard Berelson and gary A. Steiner, published by Harcort, Brace and World 1964)

Which goes a long way towards explaining what the no planers think happened as well as their deep compulsion to share it. Please note that they cannot provide a rational explanation for WHY the perps who had remote control over the explosives chose to create a backwards impact/fall sequence.

As close as the get is to imply that the perps thought the fires might go out and remove the reason for collapse. What an inept reason for risking such an important operaton when a number of much better reasons can be developed for creating a proper impact/fall sequence.

For example:

When it is seen the fires are dying out the perps suddenly decide to pull all emergency personel and state that strcutural engineers are certain that the towers are going to collapse from fire and impact damages. Then they wait for them to get out. However, they drop WTC 1 first then immediately follow with WTC 2 and say, "Isn't it lucky we evacuated the personel from WTC 2. The vibration from WTC 1 falling disturbed WTC 2 so badly it fell immediately.

They would be seen as insightful leaders premptively saving the lives of many firefigthers and policemen and NOT have to deal with an illogical impact/fall sequence.

Since the towers did come down with a backwards impact/fall sequence, it is quite clear that the control that no planers cannot logically show as existent, really did not exist. The most logical thing is that the perps relied on timers and felt certain that their post 9-11 psyops would be more than adequate to deal with ANY dissent to the official story.

Of course that psyops is largely conducted by mind controlled MKultra victims and all the perps have to do is help them to attain prominance of quasi leadership while preventing the public from realizing the true design of the towers core, which would raise too many questions and threaten exposure.

americana

23-06-2008, 01:18 PM

The fact of MKultra means that a fairly large number of Americans could have been conditionally post hypnotically instructed to react to a common condition imposed on them all. A condition described to them at childhood.

In the case of 9-11, instrcutions that read like this would work very well.

When the towers in new york city fall to the ground, you will begin to think that men in black planted nuclear bombs in the towers. No matter what anybody says, you will never be able to think that there is any other reason that such strong buildings could come down that fast. Then you will begin to know that is excatly what brought the towers down. Then you will feel that you must get on every computer connection that you can find and tell people, warn them, or you will not feel safe.

Hallucinations of all types are easily created with hypnosis. Either seeing things that are there, or not seeing things that are there.

http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/human121.jpg
(From "Human Behavior" by Bernard Berelson and gary A. Steiner, published by Harcort, Brace and World 1964)

Which goes a long way towards explaining what the no planers think happened as well as their deep compulsion to share it. Please note that they cannot provide a rational explanation for WHY the perps who had remote control over the explosives chose to create a backwards impact/fall sequence.
.

Interesting!

I'm going to play devil's advocate, although I don't like the phrase, and it's really not part of my personality. (I'm not argumentative, just like to see various sides of arguments.)

Anyhoo, if you do even the most cursory look into the history of the World Trade Center, you will find, if you don't know it already, that it is a history FRAUGHT with PROBLEMS.

These include - - resistance to the project itself, and some of the opponents were BIG BUILDERS

opposition spread from the top to the bottom, so to speak, from BIG MEN to little ones

opposition from people who had businesses in the area, that were "displaced" or destroyed to build the WTC

there was obviously much concern from many about the safety of the buildings

there were STRIKES of workers

there were EXPLOSIONS

plenty of people were royally pissed that it was built . . . .

but did they have access to BOMBS? MAYBE!!!

(Oh, and by the way, did you know that there was once an idea floating around to have a small airport downtown right near the WTC? I will post much more about this when I have time, citing a newspaper article from the period. You will find it most interesting, I'm sure!!! Draw your own conclusions about what was SUPPOSED to happen with the building.)

Just a thought. :D

americana

23-06-2008, 01:34 PM

christophera

23-06-2008, 07:44 PM

Interesting!

I'm going to play devil's advocate, although I don't like the phrase, and it's really not part of my personality. (I'm not argumentative, just like to see various sides of arguments.)

Anyhoo, if you do even the most cursory look into the history of the World Trade Center, you will find, if you don't know it already, that it is a history FRAUGHT with PROBLEMS.

These include - - resistance to the project itself, and some of the opponents were BIG BUILDERS

opposition spread from the top to the bottom, so to speak, from BIG MEN to little ones

opposition from people who had businesses in the area, that were "displaced" or destroyed to build the WTC

there was obviously much concern from many about the safety of the buildings

there were STRIKES of workers

there were EXPLOSIONS

plenty of people were royally pissed that it was built . . . .

but did they have access to BOMBS? MAYBE!!!

(Oh, and by the way, did you know that there was once an idea floating around to have a small airport downtown right near the WTC? I will post much more about this when I have time, citing a newspaper article from the period. You will find it most interesting, I'm sure!!! Draw your own conclusions about what was SUPPOSED to happen with the building.)

Just a thought. :D

Yes, the history is fairly well known to me. The airport bit is new however.

The 1990 documentary, now disappeared, spent about 10 minutes on the history of the site before getting into the design development process.

I do have some experience with high explosives blasting highly stratfied rock formations. I learned that the expllosives have to be in the exact center to reduce a mineral mass to it's particulate components. The Sand and gravel (http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/2001/10/wtc/pdrm1943.jpg) we see has a great deal of heavy aggregate in it. Something which lightweight concrete does not have. Accordingly the reduction of all that concrete, no matter what type, requires perfect placement and distribution of explosives.

Perfect placement and distribution is not possible with bombs. The uniformity we see here,

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corefacesexploding.jpg

and the total reduction of concrete to partical components, is a phenomena in itself.

As a welder for 35 years and surveyor for 25 years I've encountered quite a bit of structural steel and concrete and so when I watched that 1990 documentary titled, "The Engineering and Construction of the Twin Towers", I understood every word of it. The towers were tremendously strong structures and could never go down as we saw unless they were engineered to do so.

We are in much deeper poop than we can even comprehend.

BTW, WTC 7 has been rebuilt with a steel reinforced cast concrete tubular core.

http://www.concretemonthly.com/monthly/art.php?805

and the new freedom tower will also have one. It turns out steel in the proportions of these skyscrapers flexes far too much to stand in over about a 90 MPH wind with anticipated loads.

mynameis

23-06-2008, 11:25 PM

christophera

25-06-2008, 06:03 PM

oh, and by the way . . . I'm NOT a no-planer

but one might take into consideration sabotage
or
the possibility of cutting corners in building it (think of the movie The Towering Inferno, where inferior materials were used)

which may have made it easier to "explode", to fall down . . . .

and it's interesting, Christopher, but from everything I've READ, a Conrete and Steel core would have supposedly held up better (but perhaps that was what was there????)

so what architects, builders, etc, have learned from the collapse of the Twin Towers is FALSE? (that using concrete would have been preferable)

hope this makes sense!!

I find nothing wrong with those arguments.

Yes, in fact the perpetrating factions bemoaned the fact the Twins didn't have a concrete core to try and pretend they didn't, then applauded the decision to rebuild 7 having one. Then "Freedom Tower will be much safer with a concrete core."

They think the public is soooooooooooo stupid.

We have been totally worked and we can thank the quasi leadership of the truth movement for the problems stemming from it for believing and diseminating the plans provided by silverstein.

christophera

01-07-2008, 11:43 PM

A big part of the deception, before the misleading of the silverstein plans, was the unlawful removal of public documents from public offices.

NYC mayor took the plans and hid them while the courts protect their hiding (http://web.archive.org/web/20020224015919/http://www.nyclu.org/g_archive020602.html)

THEN

We get faked reject plans from silverstein,

http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/gwtc1rev.tab141.anoma.DBL.gif

while the real things sits in the ex NYC mayors personal warehouse, the "Fortress"

http://images.villagevoice.com/issues/0204/barrett.jpg

Our concern is based on the following facts, as we understand them. On or about December 24, 2001, Commissioner George Rios, on behalf of the City of New York and/or the Department of Records and Information Services of the City of New York, entered into a contract with the Rudolph W. Giuliani Center for Urban Affairs Inc., signed by Saul Cohen, President, concerning the records of the mayoralty of Rudolph Giuliani. The records are said to include appointment books, cabinet meeting audiotapes, e-mails, telephone logs, advance and briefing memos, correspondence, transition materials, and private schedules, as well as Mr. Giuliani?s departmental, travel, event, subject, and Gracie Mansion files. Giuliani's "World Trade Center files"

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DE2DF163AF936A15752C0A9649C8B 63
Rudy Giuliani has spent a lifetime dictating his own legend. When he was U.S. attorney in Manhattan, he abruptly ended the longtime practice of publishing annual reports, making reporters and others utterly dependent on his version of how productive the office was. And now, while peddling the story of his mayoralty for millions to publishers and moviemakers, he's gained exclusive control over a public record ordinarily available to all.

Gabe Pressman, the city's greatest television newsman, did an op-ed piece in the Times last week celebrating Bloomberg's destruction of Giuliani's eight-year stonewall. As accurate as this piece may prove to be about Bloomberg, it failed to note that the wall around Giuliani's public life has only relocated to a fortress in Queens. Giuliani does not trust the Bloomberg administration to resist FOIL requests for him, nor does he trust the charter to safeguard his myth. He will shape it himself for profit, laundering the people's papers through his own cadre of mercenaries and true believers, leaving for the public eye only what he sees fit.

And he was probably paid to take the documents

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0748,barrett,78478,6.html
Rudy's Ties to a Terror Sheikh
Giuliani's business contracts tie him to the man who let 9/11's mastermind escape the FBI
by Wayne Barrett
November 27th, 2007 3:39 PM
Illustration by Wes Duvall
Special reporting by Samuel Rubenfeld and additional research by Adrienne Gaffney and Danielle Schiffman
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Three weeks after 9/11, when the roar of fighter jets still haunted the city's skyline, the emir of gas-rich Qatar, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifah al-Thani, toured Ground Zero. Although a member of the emir's own royal family had harbored the man who would later be identified as the mastermind of the attack—a man named Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, often referred to in intelligence circles by his initials, KSM—al-Thani rushed to New York in its aftermath, offering to make a $3 million donation, principally to the families of its victims. Rudy Giuliani, apparently unaware of what the FBI and CIA had long known about Qatari links to Al Qaeda, appeared on CNN with al-Thani that night and vouched for the emir when Larry King asked the mayor: "You are a friend of his, are you not?"
"We had a very good meeting yesterday. Very good," said Giuliani, adding that he was "very, very grateful" for al-Thani's generosity.

christophera

15-07-2008, 10:03 PM

Here is an example of how false quasi leadership uses social fears in an action of gate keeping.

How many cognitive distortions can you find in this message, and how are they used to try and steer the thinking of our small community groups?

MESSAGE:
Well, here it is -- we now have no doubts whatsoever why Chris is on this listserv -- not to share ideas and listen to one another and treat all parties in the Truth Movement with the respect they well deserve, but to push his own personal Agenda down the throats of everyone else; we are just supposed to sit back and listen to the Master and believe every word he says. The only people he will listen to are those who parrot exactly what he says, thinks and believes. I'm outta here.

Lauren

christophera

16-07-2008, 06:48 AM

oh, and by the way . . . I'm NOT a no-planer

but one might take into consideration sabotage
or
the possibility of cutting corners in building it (think of the movie The Towering Inferno, where inferior materials were used)

which may have made it easier to "explode", to fall down . . . .

and it's interesting, Christopher, but from everything I've READ, a Conrete and Steel core would have supposedly held up better (but perhaps that was what was there????)

WTC 7 was just rebuilt with a concrete core that was cast inside the steel exterior framework.

The WTC replacement tower will be rebuilt in the same way.

The 1990, 2 hour documentry, "The Engineering and Construction of the Twin Towers" was about 1.5 hours of detail on WTC 1 that included one aspect or another of the largest cast concrete core tubular ever built.

christophera

17-07-2008, 08:24 PM

Seems to me the government didnt get infiltrated, it started out corrupt. The NWO goes way back to 1766 at least, where they made a obviously quite succesfull plan to control the world through democracy. The NWO probably doesnt need the government to be a democracy to be able to control it, mostly it seems to need to have control of their finances and that usually is enough.

That infiltration was of the Masonic order, and it started in 1312, when the Templars returned to the British Isles from mapping the planets coastlines from the decks of their ships following being banned in France.

Otherwise, what you've written fits very well.

It is wierd how the concrete got pulverised, but then I guess we dont know what kind of explosives were used. Also some say that the twin towers were actually built for this very purpose, although that sounds a bit over the top,

The secrecy of the cold war had the real purpose of making secrecy that could be used to do things like build the Twins to demo. The perfection of the uniformity is an absolute telltale towards the towers being "engineered explosive concrete containers" having structural shapes.

but then otherwise they must have used their scalarwave weapons or something like that to accomplish it instead. I would think they give that kind of effect.

There doesn't appear to be evidence supporting the existence of such weapons beyond experimental levels. The event of the Twins requires a very well developed and powerful weapon, and from what I've seen, it is just not in existence yet.

kblood

19-07-2008, 01:04 AM

From what ive seen, even lightsabers are likely to already exist. My guess is that alot of technology isnt revealed because of the science behind them and what they reveal about everything.

Like secret powersources. If a superior powersource to any today was revealed and some nations managed to massproduce it, then the power structure today would change a whole lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAcxGD6-c-E

The first few of these vids goes into 9/11 abd alot of stuff that is very conspicous about it. Stolen identities and lots of links to big companies and the government, and Israel moreso than muslim nations.

christophera

19-07-2008, 10:15 AM

silweavers

19-07-2008, 12:56 PM

christophera

19-07-2008, 08:47 PM

Time and again I watched the first TV shots of a plane hitting the first tower
and noticed the plane didn't have any windows. At first I thought it was my eyesight so I kneeled right in front of the box. When they repetedly showed this shot I realised that my eyesight wasn't playing tricks on me. That was enough evidence for me to know I was being deceived.
Silweavers

That was the second hit.

Since we know that planes had nothing to do with the towers going down at rates near free fall, planes don't matter.

If it is a fact the second plane hitting the tower IS NOT flight 175, how do we sue that information? How do we confirm it? It requires an accountable government to do such. We don't have one of those. The information, although perhaps true, is useless.

We must first create an accountable government THEN we can use that information.

So the promotion of such information is secondarily misleading. It is presented as something useful, but then turns out to not be useful.

We need to only promote information which the quality officials which DO EXIST are willing to use. They are willing to use it because it is in itself self confirming and non inflamatory, or will not cost them their carreer to present and also is beyond real question as being adequate to justify a limited re investigation.

gbarnard

19-07-2008, 11:50 PM

dangermouse

20-07-2008, 12:24 AM

I was just watching "The long Kiss Goodnight" and actually listened to the plot and was amazed. This movie was out years before 9/11 but in the movie the CIA needed funding so they loaded a bomb onto a truck and were going to detonate it killing 4000 americans and blame it on the Muslims.

That's just too close to what really happened isn't it?

how about this was 6 months before 911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUKQz-xm0is
On March 4, 2001—exactly six months and one week before 9/11—The Lone Gunmen television show, a spinoff from The X-Files, premiered on FOX.

In that pilot episode, Byers' father faked his own death in order to uncover a conspiracy to hijack a commercial airliner, and crash it into what turned out to be the World Trade Center. This episode, and those that followed it, received positive reviews, but FOX cancelled the show due, it said, to a drop in ratings.

The following series of clips from that pilot episode are somewhat more extensive than what has been available on YouTube to date, detailing some of the possible similarities between fact and fiction than had been available before.

Dr. Condoleezza Rice said that, before 9/11, no one anticipated airliners being used as weapons. Given that the government had anticipated this (even considered perpetrating a similar scenario!) as far back as Operation Northwoods and as recently as the "terror drills" it was sponsoring that day, not only is Dr. Rice's statement patently false, but also—strangely enough—the fictional "Lone Gunmen" seem to have anticipated this, as the following clips plainly demonstrate.

Still, that this 9/11 was foreshadowed by The Lone Gunmen—just over six months prior to September 11, 2001—is stunning.

kblood

20-07-2008, 02:32 AM

christophera

20-07-2008, 07:54 AM

Yea Danger Mouse :) I remember watching that episode. I thought it kind of lame that they all died in the end of the series.

I had of course forgotten about it when 9 11 happened, but heard about the relation afterwards, dont remember from where, but I think it was from one of the many google conspiracy revealing series.

It is curious how film and TV and commercial music such as coup has been used to bring us details of the plot in advance. It seems as though to speak of a positive element perhaps trapped amongst the secret ones that execute such dark deeds.

Unfortunately such enlightening aspects are overshadowed by the post 9-11 psyops that brings us powerful people in positions of influence where the use that influence to mislead the masses into useless patterns of beliefs that reinforce mainstream Americans perceptions that 9-11 truthseekers are a bunch of paranoid nuts.

My knowledege of the built to demolish aspects of the Twins underlines the long term planning that has gone into 9-11. Suddenly projects such as MKultra can be seen to have a purpose which can be observed in the simple behavior of segments of the truth movement that clamor to feed a deranged concept that pivots on major cognitive distortions.

Quite sad, ......... because I know those individuals want the truth, and sincerely believe what they think and say. I see their utter inability to utilize logic in analysis of the absurdities they promote and realize just how fragile the human mind is, how easily it can be taken astray by contact with the unconscious where long term memory resides.

christophera

23-07-2008, 07:52 AM

One of the most important features that the secret government employs in the psyops is keeping useless information out front, occupying the masses. As long as confusion is maintained, no matter by what seemingly inflamatory means, advatage towards secrecy is found.

christophera

28-07-2008, 06:58 PM

I am always amazed at how easily nonsense theory is entertained in the social environment that the psyops cultivates. Then, ....... when legitimate criticism is applied, a generalization is applied. Something like this, "Well, it doesn't matter, everybody knows it was an inside job."

What the truth movement fails to recognize is that the majority of Americans are not willing to entertain the generalization. They must have facts which reasonably conclude SHOWING an inside job.

Therein, ........... is the reason the psyops attacks the concrete core information.

http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html

The core was "inside" the towers, and only explosives placed "inside" concrete will turn it into sand and gravel. Obviously, built to demolish is an "inside job". Therefore the concrete core is the biggest real target information of the psyops. Therefore NONE of the quasi leadership of the truth movment will even discuss the concrete core.

Either their information is misinformation or they wish to avoid the presenting of information that will be attacked.

christophera

31-07-2008, 05:10 PM

Another common human instinctual structuure exploited by the psyops of 9-11 is the justification for an expectation which has been fairly well cultivated by media for 30 years.

That is, ............ the notion that everything will have a satisfactory explanation eventually.

Sort of an extension of "instant gratification" such as, "sit down and turn on the TV". Or inthe case of 9-11, "The Internet will eventually have someone providing the anwser.

All it takes is a group haggling, and suddnely in the activity WOW, somekind of legitimacy is born. Suddenly positions which NEVER can be rationally supported are being supported on irrational basis and that seems okay in an environment where other absurdities are enertained. And, since there is support, the notions must have credibility, ....... right?

Suddenly one gains an apprecition for what a vacuum does in the arena of truth finding associated with mass murder when those creating the vacuum are also the one perpetrating the murder then filling the vacuum with something.

christophera

02-08-2008, 09:37 PM

Another useful tool of the psyops and misleading the public is the play on sensationalism and emotional reasoning.

Any activity that causes interaction on message board keeps that activity more visible. Accordingly, highly controversial and emotional issues are the preferred topics for misleading as disinformation.

One aspect of the "vacuum" of viable theories is that real information, which the psyops is targeting, becomes old. Because the public first saw that information while it was targeted by multiple agents using ridicule and distortions to attempt countering it, the public assumed that the information was dealt with. Or, that competent truth seekers had, at some point evaluated the information and that IF the information was valid, the truth seekers would have adopted it as information to integrate into their understanding of 9-11.

Of course the public does not know which information is targeted for disinformation so ultimately, if it is not in front of them later, they again assume it is not valid information and that whatever is a hot topic IS vaild information.

Ultimately making it acceptable in the truth seeking world to post items which have nothing to do with truth seeking but do attract attention and ge tpeople involved with the thread which makes the information look useful.

christophera

05-08-2008, 09:39 AM

Another common tool in the lifespan of a psyops distraction element is the rational appearing offer, conclusion or plea to compile information and come to some kind of a conclusion. It is assimilation of posturing that mimics a reasonable, normal development of a valid topic.

Of course in the psyops it is simply another way to justify more spacetaking threads which clutter a forum to a point where threads actually presenting valid evidence can be hard to find.

christophera

05-08-2008, 07:18 PM

I repost this becasue the village voice removed their page and put up the info on another page.

A big part of the deception, before the misleading of the silverstein plans, was the unlawful removal of public documents from public offices.

NYC mayor took the plans and hid them while the courts protect their hiding (http://web.archive.org/web/20020224015919/http://www.nyclu.org/g_archive020602.html)

THEN

We get faked reject plans from silverstein,

http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/gwtc1rev.tab141.anoma.DBL.gif

while the real things sits in the ex NYC mayors personal warehouse, the "Fortress"

http://media.newtimes.com/1932173.47.jpg
http://www.villagevoice.com/2002-01-22/news/hijacking-history/

Our concern is based on the following facts, as we understand them. On or about December 24, 2001, Commissioner George Rios, on behalf of the City of New York and/or the Department of Records and Information Services of the City of New York, entered into a contract with the Rudolph W. Giuliani Center for Urban Affairs Inc., signed by Saul Cohen, President, concerning the records of the mayoralty of Rudolph Giuliani. The records are said to include appointment books, cabinet meeting audiotapes, e-mails, telephone logs, advance and briefing memos, correspondence, transition materials, and private schedules, as well as Mr. Giuliani?s departmental, travel, event, subject, and Gracie Mansion files. Giuliani's "World Trade Center files"

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DE2DF163AF936A15752C0A9649C8B 63
Rudy Giuliani has spent a lifetime dictating his own legend. When he was U.S. attorney in Manhattan, he abruptly ended the longtime practice of publishing annual reports, making reporters and others utterly dependent on his version of how productive the office was. And now, while peddling the story of his mayoralty for millions to publishers and moviemakers, he's gained exclusive control over a public record ordinarily available to all.

Gabe Pressman, the city's greatest television newsman, did an op-ed piece in the Times last week celebrating Bloomberg's destruction of Giuliani's eight-year stonewall. As accurate as this piece may prove to be about Bloomberg, it failed to note that the wall around Giuliani's public life has only relocated to a fortress in Queens. Giuliani does not trust the Bloomberg administration to resist FOIL requests for him, nor does he trust the charter to safeguard his myth. He will shape it himself for profit, laundering the people's papers through his own cadre of mercenaries and true believers, leaving for the public eye only what he sees fit.

And he was probably paid to take the documents

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0748,barrett,78478,6.html
Rudy's Ties to a Terror Sheikh
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Three weeks after 9/11, when the roar of fighter jets still haunted the city's skyline, the emir of gas-rich Qatar, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifah al-Thani, toured Ground Zero. Although a member of the emir's own royal family had harbored the man who would later be identified as the mastermind of the attack—a man named Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, often referred to in intelligence circles by his initials, KSM—al-Thani rushed to New York in its aftermath, offering to make a $3 million donation, principally to the families of its victims. Rudy Giuliani, apparently unaware of what the FBI and CIA had long known about Qatari links to Al Qaeda, appeared on CNN with al-Thani that night and vouched for the emir when Larry King asked the mayor: "You are a friend of his, are you not?"
"We had a very good meeting yesterday. Very good," said Giuliani, adding that he was "very, very grateful" for al-Thani's generosity.

christophera

07-08-2008, 08:18 PM

In the case of message boards, the thread cue in a forum indicates "leading" issues. Accordingly, "misleading" can be done by simply keeping those threads artificially visible.

This is done by false participation and exploitance of natural reluctance to engage functional information because of fears.

The first fear is social fear. Ridicule is used to enforce it. A fear of rejection from social circles controls the ability to engage information that might provide adequate explanation.

The second fear is more tangible. It is the fear of actually opposing a dark force with effectiveness. It is presumed that all words and actions are seen and IF subjects which might compel real change are entertained, THEN people might be targeted by the men in black.

graflok

07-08-2008, 09:06 PM

christophera

07-08-2008, 10:29 PM

So, you believe a plane hit the Pentagon too then?

No.The five thing was whacked by a missile and the evidence shows it.

The evidence at the WTC shows planes were involved. Absolutely no logical reason for the backwards impact/fall sequence has ever been produced within the factors present of the NPT.

There is absolutely no way the perps would choose to use a remote system to create a backwards event causing such great scrutiny and exposure as that sequence. Human nature cannot be ignored without substancial reason, and the ones provided do not work.

supertzar

07-08-2008, 10:52 PM

christophera

07-08-2008, 11:15 PM

If I understand you correctly, it's ironic that you say

NPT particuarly. It makes a laughing matter, ..............

I'm serious
A LAUGHING MATTER FOR THE PUBLIC TOWARDS THE 9-11 TRUTH MOVEMENT.

After saying

Do you recognize consistency as being more valid than evidence and reason? Or, ......... if a group of people believe a given thing, will you go along with the group to avoid the social upheaval and community opposition to your dissent?

Do you reject NPT because it is inconsistent with conventional 9-11 conspiracy theories and causes upheaval and community opposistion or...what? It would be odd because it would seem that you are doing exactly what you are speaking against. :confused:

Okay, I can see where that would be confusing IF you didn't know what I've been through simply trying to show that FEMA deceived the world about the design of the Twins and their core structure. The concrete core of the towers is not a theory to me. I know for absolute certain that the towers had a steel reinforced cast concrete tube up the center of them. I have a theory about demo that is based upon that knowledge and that theory is completely consistent with all evidence while being completely feasible.

Also, quote #1 & #2 are not from the same post and confuse terms. #1 is in direct regard to the public attitude and the NPT,or the damage it does. While #2 refers to the issue of the truth movement being manipulated with social fears to be unable to consider, EVEN WITH DYNAMIC SUPPORTING EVIDENCE, that the Twin towers core was constructed of the worlds MOST common building material (compare that to suggesting there were no planes). Truthers in San Diego, Los Angeles and San Francisco refuse to communicate with me because of the consistency presented by the cooperation of the quasi leadership with use of the FEMA structural information (http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/femacore.gif) and the silverstein plans????. A quasi leader they trust and depend on has made them afraid of the "social upheaval and community opposition to my dissent".

Or, .......... that the quasi leadership would rather use the information from FEMA, an agency not created under the Constitution and in place the day before 9-11 in NYC for a disaster exercise. Oh, don't forget that FEMA refused to provide the plans to NIST. Don't forget that guiliani stole the WTC documents from NYC offices and courts will not honor freedom of information laws to gain their return.

Don't forget that the truth movement knows all of that but STILL prefers the FEMA core to one evidenced that also provides feasible explanations for events.

christophera

08-08-2008, 06:08 PM

The Twin Towers had a steel reinforced cast concrete tubular core. No evidence from 9-11 exists to support the core FEMA states existed.

In several places, you have noted this, citing a 1990 (?) documentary.

You stated it's missing. Where have you looked for it? Did you contact PBS?

Was the documentary just about the Twin Towers, or other buildings?

Thank you!

There has been a search going on for about 3 years for the missing PBS documentary titled, "The Engineering and Construction of the Twin Towers. In 2007 we thought we had it, but it was intercepted 3 times. Here is an .mp3 where Dr. Ron Larsen, Ph.d talks about the effort and result.

6/20/07 interview (documentary search update 17:50 minutes)
http://www.mediafire.com/?syi4xmtikmm

christophera

09-08-2008, 06:12 AM

and it's interesting, Christopher, but from everything I've READ, a Concrete and Steel core would have supposedly held up better (but perhaps that was what was there????)

Yes, a steel reinforced cast concrete rectangular tube. WTC 1 was strictly shearwall construction with major quantities of high tensile steel rebar. The engineer that states the towers could take multiple plane hits and that a plane was like a pencil into a screen. He refers to the rebar grid in the concrete walls of the core rather than the exterior steel framework, few realize that.

so what architects, builders, etc, have learned from the collapse of the Twin Towers is FALSE? (that using concrete would have been preferable)

hope this makes sense!!

They learned that before the Twin Towers were built because Minouru Yamasaki refused to certify the Twins with steel core columns for a core as Robertson had concieved them. The infiltration of government wants the public to believe it just learned that from 9-11 because it is so important that the public NOT know that the Twins had a concrete tubular core.

The fake plans being foisted in the truth movement right now from silverstein are those plans that show steel core columns. Images from 9-11 never show them, but do show a concrete tube.

christophera

10-08-2008, 08:08 AM

A pre programmed climax of videos wringing the last bit of inurement from the over information agenda manifested through video and some outrageously poised, titillating with invisible producers as actors, quasi leaders, propagating the same postures and erroneous info, if not shooting into space are strategically missing the mark.

Now, ..... 9-11 is edgy, and the "new theory" becomes the gossip chain for a few weeks until the people sort through the garbage again, as is their nature if given time, and once again know, ........ at least what is not real.

Repeating that process over a controlled medium like the web, day after day, can condition masses to reject new information.

disinformation.

mynameis

10-08-2008, 08:27 AM

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-3135892053682639810&hl=en

Watch at about 9:00

christophera

10-08-2008, 08:57 AM

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-3135892053682639810&hl=en

Watch at about 9:00

That is the reason the documentary spent about 4 minutes talking about that 1983 crap celebratory video. It is erroneous and the "Engineering and Construction of the Twin Towers", produced in 1987 made special note of it.

If the 18 minute celebratory video is correct, how come the core area is empty?

http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/spire_dust-3.jpg

The core was supposedly was strong, ............ if it existed, we would see it.

Then, what is this?

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/southcorestands.gif

It certainly does not resemble this, which, BTW, is the only official documentation of the towers core.

http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/femacore.gif

We know that guiliani took the WTC documents from the NYC. We know that FEMA never provided the plans to NIST. We know the plans being presented by all the 9-11 quasi leadership came from silverstein.

We know enough to know there is something secret about the towers structure.

mynameis

10-08-2008, 09:15 AM

The core is what the cranes are sitting on. The cranes were sitting on the steel core in the documentary. The elevator system is what you might be thinking of that is not there in the documentaries on the construction. Elevators need to be added last probably because each section would not be able to hold the weight until the upper areas are completed. It would only complicate things installing elevators in unfinished sections. As for the lower area of the WTC the photographs look like there is steel also. I think that the steel could be substandard steel, but that would be a guess. In the documentary you can see this at about 8:40.

christophera

10-08-2008, 07:22 PM

The core is what the cranes are sitting on.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/elev_guide.rail.supp.jpg

No. The cranes sit on the crane towers which are a part of the crane platform. The crane platform is a tool used to build the towers.

In the above image we can see that their is a crane which has been moved to a central position in the crane platform. You will notice that the crane towers, the heavily trussed (diagonally braced) vertical strcutures are in all of the overhead construction images of the towers when they are well along.

That image shows a good deal about the framework around the core and the construction technique facilitated by the crane platform inside the interior box columns directly over the concrete core walls being formed and poured below .

The diagonals seen inside the outer row of massive box columns, the interior box columns, are the crane platform. They have a low angle,like 30 degrees and are very large and are seen crossing the space between interio box columns in the bottom of the image. The crane platform could be jacked up to 5 floors over the top floor. The crane towers could be moved around inside the platform to facilitate setting the inner elevator guide rail support steel and allow the extension of the corner interior box columns by freeing up the space and being in position to set the next level of box column.

Elevator guide rail support steel was extended by a surface butt weld, a single pass weld, for a few sections then alignment was needed so a piece of support steel was capped with a butt plate that allowed realigning with a high degree of precision. This speeded up the process because aligning vertical steel perfectly takes a good deal of time and it wants to warp with the heat of welding it. So the welds were minimal reducing the warpage further increasing the speed.

There were many pieces of guide rail support steel which were constantly being set inside the breakdown steel form that advanced every 40 feet of concrete pour, or after it was removed while the concrete of the core cured. False floors were installed in the core area so that elevator crews could make welds and align the guide rail support steel.

Contractors had contracts that specified that the general contractor had to keep elevators capable of delivering material as far up as possible in the towers. This facilitated the first towers ever to be built from smaller materials mostly delivered up the elevators which fred the cranes for setting big pieces.

The first high pressure drill mud pumps were converted to concrete pumps to pump concrete up pipes temporarily located in the core. Every forth floor had a 6 cylinder detroit diesel roaring through the night to keep pressures up in stages and lift masses of concrete for pours which took nearly 20 hours moving mud from the minature batch plant built on the ground expressly to mix concrete for the tower and then dismantled.

If this is not true, then you will be able to find images from 9-11 showing the heavily trussed towers in the corners and the diagonals of the crane platform.

mynameis

10-08-2008, 07:26 PM

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/elev_guide.rail.supp.jpg

No. The cranes sit on the crane towers which are a part of the crane platform. The crane platform is a tool used to build the towers.

If this is not true, then you will be able to find images from 9-11 showing the heavily trussed towers in the corners and the diagonals of the crane platform.

I'm just quoting the information the documentary stated. You can't really claim the documentary got the information wrong? Maybe I misheard it? I don't think so. I'll go back and check. They say: "The cranes were assembled on top of the core columns""a neighboring crane would swing core columns into place beneath it."

Those are for elevators. The elevator systems. Why would I need to find images of anything to do with 9-11 and trusses when this is the inner structure not the trusses we are talking about? There are no trusses inside the inner structure of the core.

christophera

11-08-2008, 04:49 AM

I'm just quoting the information the documentary stated. You can't really claim the documentary got the information wrong? Maybe I misheard it? I don't think so. I'll go back and check. They say:

Those are for elevators. The elevator systems. Why would I need to find images of anything to do with 9-11 and trusses when this is the inner structure not the trusses we are talking about? There are no trusses inside the inner structure of the core.

This one image,

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/southcorestands.gif

basically proves the 1983, 18 minute documentary wrong. The 1983 documentary states this is what the core looks like,

http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/femacore.gif

There is no resemblence to the actual core of WTC on 9-11 above.

The core wall at its base (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc1.core.wall.base.annot4.jpg) basically proves it as well because the plans from silverstein is proven to not represent what actually stood.

In order to prove the documentary, FEMA, the silverstein plans, correct. An image of the supposedsteel core columns in the core area from 9-11 is needed.

So far, ........ the image above proves that there was a steel reinforced cast concrete tube and disproves that there were steel core columns. The fact that the supposed core columns were among the strongest elements of the towers absolutely guarantees that they will be visible, ...........but they are never seen.

That 18 minute documentary and its intentional error of misrepresenting the core of the towers shows the intent to deceive existed with authority in the beginning.

There are 2 applications of trusses which have been a part of discussion here.

1) The floors. You are correct, there were no trussses of that type in the core.

2) The crane towers were completely trussed structures that were an adjustable part of the crane platform which slid up and down inside of the exterior framework over the concrete core as it was being cast below.

If you assert the crane towers were a part of the core, then an image from 9-11 showing them in the core will prove your point. But I think you've got my point, there was nothing in the core except for elevator guide rail support steel. That is what was set under a crane by another crane. The reason that vertical steel is not seen in 9-11 images is that the elevator guide rail support steel had no lateral strength of its own and was supported by horizontal members that went through the concrete core walls. When the demo started the shock wave broke all the welds and bolts and the guide rail support steel fell into the core. By the time the demo was down 1/2 way, there was nothing in the core to see.

http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/media/56016/site1074.jpg

mynameis

11-08-2008, 06:09 AM

This one image,

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/southcorestands.gif

basically proves the 1983, 18 minute documentary wrong. The 1983 documentary states this is what the core looks like,

First I don't think this image disproves anything the documentary lays out no offense. Secondly, what that picture here http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/femacore.gif shows is not associated with the documentary. There were no concrete core columns as far as the documentary is concerned. I think I will believe them atm unless you have a source that specifies otherwise.

2) The crane towers were completely trussed structures that were an adjustable part of the crane platform which slid up and down inside of the exterior framework over the concrete core as it was being cast below.

The above statement is incorrect according to the documentary. The cranes were lifted to place the core columns. They may have been truss like structures the cranes situated upon and the cranes never slid downwards. Another crane would lift the neighboring crane into place, to position when core columns made of steel went underneath the rising crane.

there was nothing in the core except for elevator guide rail support steel. That is what was set under a crane by another crane. The reason that vertical steel is not seen in 9-11 images is that the elevator guide rail support steel had no lateral strength of its own and was supported by horizontal members that went through the concrete core walls. When the demo started the shock wave broke all the welds and bolts and the guide rail support steel fell into the core. By the time the demo was down 1/2 way, there was nothing in the core to see.

I understand what you are suggesting here. Based on observation between all 4 sets of box columns that made up the core what reinforced the middle. I don't know. I would need to view the blueprints and then look for more empirical evidence. I do know that the towers were built in three repeating sections base, middle, and top. I think that each used the same building design but then I have to check it all out. I just look at what's known and what is available to create a consensus of ideas. It could very well be the very bottom of the bathtub was made of concrete which would give the foundation some trouble below the base of the wtc steel core.

christophera

11-08-2008, 07:30 AM

First I don't think this image disproves anything the documentary lays out no offense. Secondly, what that picture here http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/femacore.gif shows is not associated with the documentary. There were no concrete core columns as far as the documentary is concerned. I think I will believe them atm unless you have a source that specifies otherwise.

Yes, the 18 minute documentary is absolutely misleading and nothing about what it is describing is ever visible on 9-11 as the structure comes apart before us. The 2 hours I spent watching a very detailed and intimate documentation of WTC 1 being built left an indelible mark, a bad one regarding that 18 minute video. The 1990 PBS documentary put the 1983 video down. Seriously, now I know why, because it's being used to decieve the public.

Dr. Ron Larsen has researched and associates have searched and found the 1990 documentary "The Engineeringand Construction of the Twin Towers", but it was intercepted 3 times. You can download a .mp3 of Dr. Larsen where at a point in the show he updates the confirmation of the video and search.

6/20/07 interview (documentary search update 17:50 minutes)
http://www.mediafire.com/?syi4xmtikmm

The 1983,18 minute documentary tries to describe what the diagram above shows, but does it so inadequately that no real picture is created and there is NO WAY it resembles WTC 2 core seen directly below.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/southcorestands.gif

The above statement is incorrect according to the documentary. The cranes were lifted to place the core columns. They may have been truss like structures the cranes situated upon and the cranes never slid downwards. Another crane would lift the neighboring crane into place, to position when core columns made of steel went underneath the rising crane.

Yes one crane could move another over so reach would be improved and areas under them could be worked on. But none of this means there were steel core columns inside the core area. There was steel that might have looked like it, but it was not joined together strongly enough to act as core column. Then proving this out, the core (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/southcorestands.gif) does not look what the documentary describes, which is the same as the FEMA diagram. That stuff is never seen in 9-11 images inside the core area.

I understand what you are suggesting here. Based on observation between all 4 sets of box columns that made up the core what reinforced the middle. I don't know. I would need to view the blueprints and then look for more empirical evidence. I do know that the towers were built in three repeating sections base, middle, and top. I think that each used the same building design but then I have to check it all out. I just look at what's known and what is available to create a consensus of ideas. It could very well be the very bottom of the bathtub was made of concrete which would give the foundation some trouble below the base of the wtc steel core.

I know how the towers were built. No concensus is acceptable. I am a virtual witness to the towers constrcution and what I recall WORKS WITH 9-11 IMAGES.

If you are going to look at the plans, look at this one. Core plan, 3rd floor. Locate elevator 18.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/doc/pac1TowerA/A-A-24_1.png

Compare what you see there, elevator 18 above is the area seen in this image of WTC 1 core wall at its base (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc1.core.wall.base.annot4.jpg), north side, just east of center, there is a HUGE concrete wall with a tiny utility hall cast into it NO ELEVATOR as the plans show.

The core was a steel reinforced cast concrete tube surrounded by heavy tempered steel box columns called "interior box columns" because they were of the inner wall of the exterior steel framework. Here is a corner remnant called the spire.

http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/wsb/media/56016/site1074.jpg

Locating it is a superimposition.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/superimp.spire.wtc1.jpg

Here is the west core wall of WTC 1 and the spire is seen rightof an outside the concrete shear wall of the core. Left of the concrete wall is nothing but the empty core area.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc1spirecorewall.jpg

Thes are images of the towers that actually stood, not misinterpretations of construction photos. They are not fake plans (http://algoxy.com/psych/whatis9-11Disinfo_fakeplan.html) and they show the plans are fake.

The bottom line is that the plans were stolen and FEMA didn't provide then to NIST. That tells us something is up with the structure. When the one single official depiction of the towers core is that crappy little diagram, give us a break. That is it, the entire official structural documentation.

mynameis

11-08-2008, 07:46 AM

If you are going to look at the plans, look at this one. Core plan, 3rd floor. Compare what you see there, elevator 18 above is what is seen in this image of WTC 1core wall at its base, north side, just east of center, where there is a HUGE concrete wall with a tiny utility hall cast into it NO ELEVATOR.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/doc/pac1TowerA/A-A-24_1.png

I am not seeing what you are seeing in the schematic. Can you clarify an area of interest. Is this the location? Go easy with me I have limited experience.

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/9948/bpvp9.jpg

christophera

11-08-2008, 09:17 AM

I am not seeing what you are seeing in the schematic. Can you clarify an area of interest. Is this the location? Go easy with me I have limited experience.

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/9948/bpvp9.jpg

Right on. That is the place on the 3rd floor core plan that this image of the core wall at its base (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc1.core.wall.base.annot4.jpg) is showing where the APROX. 3x7 foot hallway runs what is the length of the concrete base wall segment. One short segment did not detonate. Do you know what airshafts look like? Very light weight. What we see resisted crushing and 25 people survived in the stairway on the right.

On the other side, east side, between the interior box column and the first elevator guide rail support is where the concrete was. Note the shredded steel hanging outward.

Interior box columns and elevator guide rail support steel (http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff290/gamolon/crossbracingannotation.jpg)

ON EDIT: BTW, I would place the 3x7 foot utility hallway to the right of the janitor closet just above the red "X" you made running horizontally across the drawing. And, the annotations on the last image were done by a defeated opponent of the concrete core, who also couldn't spell.

mynameis

11-08-2008, 08:31 PM

Is there a way to see the debris of the stair well from an aerial view?

christophera

12-08-2008, 08:47 AM

Is there a way to see the debris of the stair well from an aerial view?

North tower, north side, just east of center.

HIGH RESOLUTION AERIAL OF GZ (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/groundzeroaerialmarked.jpg)

mynameis

12-08-2008, 08:52 AM

christophera

12-08-2008, 09:47 AM

christophera

13-08-2008, 09:38 AM

There is no way that the silverstein plans show what is on the ground. We have a genuine conspiracy here linking FEMA, the PA, silverstein and guliani.

christophera

13-08-2008, 08:45 PM

Imagine if the public were to find out that FEMA decieved them and NIST with the steel core columns?

How long would it take before there was some serious outrage in the streets?

christophera

21-08-2008, 06:43 PM

It looks like the stairwell is near the N? The blue prints are more rectangular....than the actual buildings.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/WTC_Building_Arrangement_and_Site_Plan.svg/486px-WTC_Building_Arrangement_and_Site_Plan.svg.png

That image posted looks weird... I don't know now. By the way the image of the aerial shot looks as thought the dark space by the N is the stairwell on the blueprints.

Here is an interesting fact.

The compass rose on that site map is wrong by 20 degrees or so. The faces of the Twin towers were perfectly aligned to cardinal direction as can be seen in the original site plan (http://www.september11news.com/Original_Arch_wtc_mya_siteplan.jpg)

mynameis

22-08-2008, 09:23 PM

Here is an interesting fact.

The compass rose on that site map is wrong by 20 degrees or so. The faces of the Twin towers were perfectly aligned to cardinal direction as can be seen in the original site plan (http://www.september11news.com/Original_Arch_wtc_mya_siteplan.jpg)

I didn't get to read this til today. I need to take time to analyze it if your right about the blueprints and compass being off on the map. I'll need to get a compass and track the blueprints to incorporate the new information; maybe check out the compass thing being off first and see how that changes things a touch. By looking at the picture I think we are talking about the same area just under the right of the N.

Thes are images of the towers that actually stood, not misinterpretations of construction photos. They are not fake plans (http://algoxy.com/psych/whatis9-11Disinfo_fakeplan.html) and they show the plans are fake.

The bottom line is that the plans were stolen and FEMA didn't provide then to NIST. That tells us something is up with the structure. When the one single official depiction of the towers core is that crappy little diagram, give us a break. That is it, the entire official structural documentation.

How long would it take to fake a set of blueprints? Are the blue prints on file with the city? Where did the picture or link of the floor plan with the stairwell or support utility hall disappear too?

christophera

24-08-2008, 08:49 AM

I didn't get to read this til today. I need to take time to analyze it if your right about the blueprints and compass being off on the map. I'll need to get a compass and track the blueprints to incorporate the new information; maybe check out the compass thing being off first and see how that changes things a touch. By looking at the picture I think we are talking about the same area just under the right of the N.

How long would it take to fake a set of blueprints? Are the blue prints on file with the city? Where did the picture or link of the floor plan with the stairwell or support utility hall disappear too?

The city never had prints from what I've heard. But the again guiliani was supposed to have taken them with the WTC documents. It figures the city would tho. The Port Authority was its own municipality so maybe not.

The north side of WTC 1 core with a tiny utility access hall running the length of it.

core wall at its base (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc1.core.wall.base.annot4.jpg)

The plans for that level of the core.

3rd floor core plan (http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/doc/pac1TowerA/A-A-24_1.png)

christophera

26-08-2008, 07:10 PM

What really needs to be examined by the truth movement is the faked WTC 1 plans.

Realize that ALL of the 9-11 quasi leaders disseminate the scans of the WTC 1 plans which originate fron the offices of silverstein. This is done without mention that the plans are illegible and suspiciously incomplete relating to details of the supposed core structure. This is done despite the fact that the revision table of many sheets bears definite signs of digital manipulation which cannot be created during scanning.

Examine the zoomed images of the anomalies found in the fake plans (http://algoxy.com/psych/whatis9-11Disinfo_fakeplan.html).

christophera

30-08-2008, 09:35 AM

There are more than one deception and more than one distraction. However, because of the nature of the event, unique perfection at high speed, very much a disintigration,

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corefacesexploding.jpg

We need to know exactly what kind of building can do that. The design of the tower is everything IF the WTC is a focus. Planes didn't bring the towers down, why talk about them either way. Fires didn't bring them down. Officially it was analysed as a "collapse".

The prime question logically for leadership must be, "What kind of building can do that". But, the truth movement never questions the source of the plans or that the NYC, WTC documents were taken while FEMA never had the plans. Does the leadership ask that queston? When they are told that it happened to a building with a design that cannot be effected that way (if it could stand for 33 yrs, it can't) do they suspect that the design they've been provided is wrong. No, or at least some do not openly while perhaps timidly waiting for others to go against the official story of the building design which mainstream movement leadership endorses.

christophera

04-09-2008, 05:21 PM

The suggestion that video was faked, and the fact that video can be faked, then the introduction of faked video, seems, somehow, illogically to imply that all video is faked.

This is patently a cognitive distortion. "All or nothing thinking" is what it is called.

After years of no reasonable explanation, the perpetrators know that people are hundgry for an explanation that makes some kind of sense. If fake video is introduced at a high enough level of distribution and a cluster of "built in believers" an amazing amount of credibility can be created with no actual substance or logic.

Such is proven with the NPT.

A classic tendency is for NPT people to apply all or nothing thinking the opposite way relating to the beliefs of another. Or, ................. "what about the pentagon?" As if others thought as they thought, ..... but in reverse.

I've seen this here on this board. It's a common way of thinking.

The evidence says; planes at the WTC and missles at the five thing. Logic and evidence says that planes had nothing to do with the Twins coming down. Accordingly, HOW can the NPT thing be so prevalent?

The only real explanation is a psyops that utilizes people who have been induced to believe that the fact that video can be faked means video was faked and that such a fact if supported widely by the truthh movement will make the public react to all evidence with outrage and demand justice. So, ...... they cannot stop trying to promote the notion of "no planes" and assist with the deception and misleading.

mynameis

04-09-2008, 05:38 PM

What are your thoughts on "Red Mercury?" It's a ballotechnic.

banoyes

05-09-2008, 03:02 PM

The evidence says; planes at the WTC
Would you post this "evidence"

christophera

05-09-2008, 09:03 PM

What are your thoughts on "Red Mercury?" It's a ballotechnic.

I had never heard of it until you brought it up.

http://tinwiki.org/wiki/Red_Mercury_Bomb

Doctors Sam Cohen (father of the neutron bomb) and Joseph Douglass have written on this subject as believers in the weapon. According to their writing, a Red Mercury Bomb is a pure fusion weapon: an advanced neutron bomb. The fusion of Tritium and Deuterium into Helium releases high energy neutrons, which are harmful to living things. It does not however generate the enormous heat and shock which is released by fission. [1]. This is because the splitting of an atom generates kinetic energy in addition to the loss of mass as energy that results from the higher binding energy of the products. Fusion generates only a loss of mass as energy, in this case in the form of high energy neutrons with no kinetic energy from the breakup of an atom.

Sounds to me that the towers would still be standing and the people would be dead.

christophera

05-09-2008, 09:07 PM

Would you post this "evidence"

I would, but you would only call it fake.

Would you generate some reasonable logic to explain WHY the perpetrators chose a backwards fall/impact sequence because the NPT/holo theories require remote control which creates options that include a logical impact/fall sequence.

Can you post evidence showing planes were in anyway responsible for this,

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/corefacesexploding.jpg

And if you cannot, ........ why are you focusing on the position that what wasn't responsible did not exist?

mynameis

05-09-2008, 09:11 PM

I had never heard of it until you brought it up.

http://tinwiki.org/wiki/Red_Mercury_Bomb

Doctors Sam Cohen (father of the neutron bomb) and Joseph Douglass have written on this subject as believers in the weapon. According to their writing, a Red Mercury Bomb is a pure fusion weapon: an advanced neutron bomb. The fusion of Tritium and Deuterium into Helium releases high energy neutrons, which are harmful to living things. It does not however generate the enormous heat and shock which is released by fission. [1]. This is because the splitting of an atom generates kinetic energy in addition to the loss of mass as energy that results from the higher binding energy of the products. Fusion generates only a loss of mass as energy, in this case in the form of high energy neutrons with no kinetic energy from the breakup of an atom.

Sounds to me that the towers would still be standing and the people would be dead.

In most cases, the only practical way to generate enough energy to begin the fusion of heavy hydrogen is fission. This means that the neutron bomb as Dr. Cohen created it generated a small nuclear explosion in the kiloton range, creating significant short-range explosive damage with a "clean kill" radius beyond that from the high energy neutrons produced by fusion. The requirement of Plutonium or Uranium fission to initiate fusion made fission-fusion neutron bombs heavier and thus less versatile. A pure fusion weapon could be lighter and smaller because it does not require either a critical mass or heavy metals, it has a higher kill range per unit of explosive force (ton TNT equivalent),could be constructed from materials not covered by the NPFT, could be tested without detection, and produces no radioactive fallout Ibid.

http://tinwiki.org/wiki/Red_Mercury_Bomb

banoyes

05-09-2008, 11:24 PM

I would, but you would only call it fake.

Would you generate some reasonable logic to explain WHY the perpetrators chose a backwards fall/impact sequence because the NPT/holo theories require remote control which creates options that include a logical impact/fall sequence.

Can you post evidence showing planes were in anyway responsible for this,

And if you cannot, ........ why are you focusing on the position that what wasn't responsible did not exist?
You said
"The evidence says, planes at the WTC"
so I ask you again to post this evidence that you claim.
This is not about the "dustification" of the towers
so
what's the problem?
Post the evidence planes hit the towers

mynameis

06-09-2008, 12:08 AM

christophera

06-09-2008, 12:28 PM

You said
"The evidence says, planes at the WTC"
so I ask you again to post this evidence that you claim.
This is not about the "dustification" of the towers
so
what's the problem?
Post the evidence planes hit the towers

No, go find it yourself. I don't do planes.

It is very common evidence and I'm not stepping into your cycle of dubious veracity verifying useless beliefs. I know planes HAD NOTHING TO DO with what happened to the towers on 9-11 so therefore there is no point in discussing them. Is this correct, or would you rather waste peoples time dealing with insubstancial issues that are not relevant to understanding the main event? You do see that as the loss of 3,000 lives and the miracleous free fall descent of 1 million tons of high strength construction material, .......... do you not?

I need the simple, reasonable logic presented that shows how it is within human nature, or the nature of the perpetrators to choose to have a backwards fall/impact sequence when their supposed remote control gave them options.

No, the reason that fires might go out and remove apparent cause for WTC collapse IS NOT reasonable. WTC 1 burnt much worse and was going to fall first if anything was going to logically fall.

Post some logic and reason.

banoyes

06-09-2008, 12:44 PM

christophera

06-09-2008, 11:33 PM

Could you post an answer to these questions/issues presented to you here?

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=489894&postcount=120

I need the simple, reasonable logic presented that shows how it is within human nature, or the nature of the perpetrators to choose to have a backwards fall/impact sequence when their supposed remote control gave them options.

No, the reason that fires might go out and remove apparent cause for WTC collapse IS NOT reasonable. WTC 1 burnt much worse and was going to fall first if anything was going to logically fall.

christophera

08-09-2008, 12:16 AM

Could you post an answer to these questions/issues presented to you here?

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=489894&postcount=120

No, the reason that fires might go out and remove apparent cause for WTC collapse IS NOT reasonable. WTC 1 burnt much worse and was going to fall first if anything was going to logically fall.

Banoyes, still waiting for you to use reason and explain WHY the perps chose a backwards impact/fall scenario.

christophera

08-09-2008, 07:49 PM

Do you understand the issue now Banoyes?

I explained it in the other thread after you said you don't get the point.

The point is that IF you believe in the no plane theory THEN you believe that remotes were used. Remotes are used to enhance control, create options and limit mistakes that might expose the operation.

WHY did the perps choose a backwards impact/fall sequence when they had the option to create a logical one?

mynameis

11-09-2008, 11:22 PM

dave52

11-09-2008, 11:41 PM

Why does NPT have to rely on remotes...?

christophera

12-09-2008, 10:47 AM

Why does NPT have to rely on remotes...?

Perhaps your mind is overly obsessed with the issue of fake video and planes or no planes. In an effort to direct you towards providing some substanciation within common knowledge reasoning, let me attempt to move away from focus upon NPT. The was a lot more happening that day than the plane issue.

Okay?

How were the detonations of the towers initiated?

dave52

12-09-2008, 11:09 AM

Fucking hell - here we go again...

It depends on the mode of destruction. If it was mini-nukes or demolition charges, I guess you'd have to initiate it with a remote detonation of some kind. I don't see that you'd need to do that if you were using some form of DEW.

christophera

12-09-2008, 11:14 AM

mynameis

12-09-2008, 11:17 AM

The specs on laser weapons at the cutting edge are all well known.

April 2002
Bright Future for Tactical Laser Weapons

ONCE again, science fiction has predicted science fact. Remember those movies where the hero (or villain) uses a beam from a compact laser to blow a rocket out of the sky? Last December, that generic bit of sci-fi drama took a step closer to reality. In a demonstration at the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico, the solid-state heat-capacity laser (SSHCL) burned a 1-centimeter-diameter hole straight through a 2-centimeter-thick stack of steel samples in 6 seconds. The electrical current to do so came from a wall outlet and cost no more than 30 cents. While large chemical lasers have successfully shot down tactical rockets, the SSHCL design supports the weight and size requirements for a future mobile deployment.
The SSHCL, designed and developed at Lawrence Livermore, is the prototype of a laser tactical weapon, which shows promise as the first high-energy laser compact enough in size and weight to be considered part of the Army’s future combat system (FCS) for short-range air defense. The FCS is a component of the Army’s vision of sensors, platforms, and weapons with a networked command and control system. The more advanced version of the laser weapon system, now under development, will be battery-powered and—at 2 meters long and less than a meter across—small enough to be mounted on a hybrid-electric high-mobility multipurpose wheeled vehicle (Humvee). In this configuration, the Humvee’s generator and batteries could power both the vehicle and the laser, requiring only diesel fuel to support full operation.
The SSHCL offers speed-of-light precision engagement and destruction of a variety of targets, including short-range artillery, rockets, and mortars. There is a current need for effective protection against these weapons on the battlefield. The project is sponsored by the U.S. Army Space and Missile Defense Command and has a number of commercial partners, including General Atomics, Raytheon Co., PEI Electronics Inc., Northrop Grumman Corp., Goodrich Corp., Armstrong Laser Technology Inc., and Saft America.
Solid-state heat-capacity laser being monitored while operating.
Lawrence Livermore laser technician Balbir Bhachu monitors the performance of the 13-kilowatt neodymium-doped glass version of the solid-state heat-capacity laser during a low-power test.

Meeting the Challenges
The SSHCL delivered to White Sands for testing last September has an amplifier composed of nine disks of neodymium-doped glass (Nd:glass). In this prototype, an electrical source powers flashlamps, which in turn pump the disks, which then release the energy in pulses of laser light. The average output power of the SSHCL is 10 kilowatts, and it can deliver 500-joule pulses at 20 hertz in 10-second bursts—essentially vaporizing metal. The prototype requires 1 megawatt of input power to produce a 13-kilowatt laser beam. Project manager Brent Dane, of Livermore’s Laser Science and Technology program, notes that the ultimate objective of the project is to build a next-generation system with enough electrical efficiency to produce a 100-kilowatt laser beam from the same 1 megawatt of input power. The final version will be capable of firing 200 pulses per second.
The Livermore team is focusing on the technological challenges that remain to building the 100-kilowatt system. Dane enumerated the three areas of concentration: growing large crystals of neodymium-doped gadolinium–gallium– garnet (Nd:GGG) for amplifier disks; developing the technology needed to make diode arrays large, powerful, and cost-effective; and defining the laser architecture and technology that will allow high-quality beams to propagate precisely over long distances.
Although the prototype uses Nd:glass for its laser amplifier disks, the final version will use Nd:GGG. “There are many reasons for choosing Nd:GGG,” explains Mark Rotter, an electrical engineer who is leading the diode-pumped Nd:GGG effort. “Compared with Nd:glass, Nd:GGG boasts a higher mechanical strength and higher thermal conductivity, which, in combination, will allow us to rapidly cool the disks between runs and reduce the turnaround time between laser firings. The Nd:GGG is also twice as efficient in converting pump energy to output beam energy.” The challenge—to grow the crystals large enough to manufacture the nine 13-square-centimeter slabs needed for the 100-kilowatt laser—is well on its way to being met. Northrup/Grumman Poly-Scientific, the commercial partner responsible for growing the crystals, is now producing high-optical-quality Nd:GGG crystals up to 15 centimeters in diameter. The ultimate goal is to grow crystals approximately 20 centimeters in diameter.
To pump these Nd:GGG amplifier disks, the SSHCL will use arrays of laser diodes instead of flashlamps because diode arrays are more compact and efficient than flashlamps and, more importantly, diode radiation generates less heat in the Nd:GGG laser crystals. The challenge is to make the diode arrays large, powerful, and cost-effective and to come up with a cooling scheme that will work in the field.
Lawrence Livermore’s Ray Beach, who leads the diode array portion of the project, explains, “Cooling high-average-power laser diode arrays is a unique and challenging problem in the field of thermal engineering. Although laser diodes are extremely efficient devices by ordinary laser standards—they typically convert 50 percent of their electric input power into light output—the remaining 50 percent of the input power shows up as high-intensity heat from a very compact source. Because the arrays operate near room temperature, there isn’t much opportunity to radiate away heat or use standard electronic cooling techniques such as forced air.”
Livermore engineer Barry Freitas came up with a revolutionary packaging technology that solves the problem of creating high-density diode arrays. In this approach, small laser diodes are soldered to low-cost silicon substrates that are etched with thousands of tiny (30-micrometer-wide) microchannels. Cooling water flows through these microchannels, which act as high-performance heat sinks. The team used this packaging design to create the world’s highest average-power diode array—41 kilowatts of peak power from a 5- by 18-centimeter package. Arrays that produce 100 kilowatts of power are in production. Work is under way with Armstrong Laser Technology to commercialize the silicon-based diode laser package to support the production needs of the 100-kilowatt laser development.
The team is also working on an optical system that will make a beam of high enough quality—that is, sufficiently narrow, intense, and well-shaped—to propagate 10 kilometers and still hit and disable its target. “In the final system, the laser pulse will travel through nine slabs of crystal, and no matter how good the optics are, the beam will pick up distortions along the way. It’s those distortions in the wavefront that we are addressing, because they decrease the power that can be extracted in the laser beam and cause that beam to diverge more on the way to the target,” explains Dane.
A team led by Jim Brase in the Physics and Advanced Technology Directorate is developing an adaptive resonator system that will sense distortions in the wavefront and correct them in the system. The resonator—which is based on adaptive optics technology developed at Livermore—includes a deformable mirror, control electronics, and sensors to detect the shape of the laser pulse’s wavefront. A deformable mirror will be placed inside the laser resonator, and a wavefront sensor will be used to measure the output beam during operation. The sensor measures the difference between the actual shape and a perfect, flat wavefront. Computer-controlled actuators on the mirror then raise or lower small sections of the mirror’s surface to correct distortions in the incoming light so that a high-quality beam is maintained from the laser resonator.
Actual-size model of solid-state heat-capacity laser weapon on a Humvee. A life-size model, developed by General Atomics and PEI Electronics, of a mobile 100-kilowatt heat-capacity laser built on a prototype of a hybrid-electric, high-mobility multipurpose wheeled vehicle (Humvee) shows the potential compactness of a full-power weapon system.

Future Looks Bright
The solutions to these challenges are being incorporated into an SSHCL testbed—a module made up of a three-slab Nd:GGG amplifier pumped by laser diode arrays. This testbed will be configured as a laser system to demonstrate the pulse energy at a high repetition rate in 2003. The final version of the SSHCL, which would have an output power of 100 kilowatts under burst mode for several seconds, is expected to be ready to demonstrate to the Army by 2007.
Meanwhile, at the White Sands Missile Test Range, the Army, with Laboratory support, is putting the prototype through its paces, testing it on aluminum and steel to determine what types of power and pulse format will optimize the final weapon system. The Army will also use the prototype to address issues such as lethality, beam degradation due to atmospheric effects, and precision optical pointing and tracking.
The future for the solid-state laser looks promising, notes Dane. “The system we delivered to White Sands is just the starting point. The goal is to have a laser weapon system that is small, cost-effective, and mobile, which protects against tactical threats while meeting the sponsor’s other military requirements. We’re confident we’ll meet these goals.”
—Ann Parker

Key Words: laser diode array, neodymium-doped glass (Nd:glass), neodymium-doped gadolinium–gallium–garnet (Nd:GGG), solid-state heat-capacity laser (SSHCL), tactical laser weapon, U.S. Army Space and Missile Defense Command (SMDC).

For further information, contact C. Brent Dane (925) 424-5905 (dane1@llnl.gov).

https://www.llnl.gov/str/April02/Dane.html

Tactical Laser Could Work Like Long-Range Napalm
By David Hambling EmailSeptember 06, 2008 | 8:55:00 AMCategories: Bizarro, Lasers and Ray Guns

Afg070403017 In science fiction, it's one zap of a laser gun, and you're dead. But real-life energy weapons likely won't work that way.

Take the Advanced Tactical Laser (ATL) that U.S. Special Forces have begun to test-fire. Intended for "covert strikes," the ATL has been sold on its ability to blast away with pinpoint accuracy. A very rough estimate shows, however, that the effects when you target an individual are not quite what you might expect.

The ATL's laser beam is widely quoted as being ten centimeters wide at the target. It's exact power has never been stated, but it's somewhere in the hundred-kilowatt class. (The ATL has a single 12,000 lb laser module while the "megawatt class" Airborne Laser fourteen modules each of which is slightly larger, so a hundred kilowatts looks like a reasonable estimate. In addition a hundred kilowatts was the power of the original flying laser, the Airborne Laser Laboratory, and it's the target which new solid state lasers are aiming for, so it seems to be a sort of benchmark for weapons-grade lasers.) It may be somewhat higher (or lower). But by applying a little basic physics we can get a ballpark estimate of what this might do to flesh. For simplicity, I'll assume flesh has similar properties to water. The heat capacity of water is about 4.2 joules per gram per degree centigrade. The heat of vaporization (the energy needed to turn water at boiling point to steam) is 2261 joules per gram.

So if the beam stays on the same spot of the target for a full two seconds –- which is a very long time under the circumstances –- it would in theory boil off a disc around one centimeter deep. In real life, the laser would be much less effective, as smoke and steam would rapidly degrade the effectiveness of the beam. Also in real life, the energy is likely to be focused at the center of the beam. And flesh is not water. And nobody is going to hand around being lasered that long… But we're just trying to get a general idea of orders of magnitude here.

Bullets are lethal when they damage a vital organ (like the heart or the brain) or when they cause rapid blood loss. Most likely, a laser of this type would not easily be able to go deep enough to affect a vital organ. Plus, the laser would will be self-cauterizing, with the heat sealing off blood vessels. It's not going to kill you quickly.

While research in this area tends to be classified. But from what we know, the Air Force considers laser effects on eyes and skin, for the most part. Skin damage is very much easier to achieve than penetration; simply raising skin temperature to (say) 80C/ 180 f to a depth of a couple of millimeters will cause serious blistering (second-third degree burns). If 40% of the body is burned in this way, then the target will be disabled and may die.

A rough calculation suggests that exposed skin would be blistered/burned in under a twentieth of a second, so the beam could play over the target at quite a high rate. It's unclear whether clothing would have much protective effect or whether it would simply ignite and cause secondary burns.

So instead of "zap-and-you're-dead" in normal science fiction style, with a hundred kilowatt laser, it's more a matter of spraying the target all over to ensure they're done. The description of the ATL as a "long range blow torch" is probably quite accurate.

With this type of weapon, the effects are more like napalm than bullets. Humanitarian protests are likely. And one accidental lasering of a civilian could be enough to prevent the ATL being used as an anti-personnel weapon.

Higher power lasers and smaller beam diameters might be able to get a cleaner kill. The Airborne Laser is several times more powerful than the ATL, but is a huge device mounted in a 747. Very short pulse lasers can produce explosive effects on flesh, but they are a different matter to to continuous beams like the ATL, and I suspect will prove to be much more useful.

Incidentally, you can do the same sort of calculations for the Active Denial System (aka the pain beam) which is also rated at around a hundred kilowatts but which has a beam diameter of two meters. Some have alleged that the non-lethal ADS can be set to be deadly. In reality, it could only become a "death ray" with a much higher power or much smaller beam diameter, neither of which is feasible with the current design. If you really wanted to kill people using microwaves, you would use something with a much longer wavelength/lower frequency than the 95 GHz ADS, but that's another story…

Footnote: Tank Zapping At the Speed Of Light

How about busting tanks with the ATL? Well, if we conveniently ignore reflection, heat conduction and other complications and just look at the heat requirement, then the best you can hope for a hundred-kilowatt laser with a ten-centimeter spot diameter is that it can melt through a centimeter of steel in around eight seconds. If you have to vaporize the metal it will take longer.

Since the ATL can only fire for a maximum of around 30 seconds each time, it may not be very useful against armored vehicles. However, it should work fairly well against pressurized vessels used for gas storage or munitions (rockets, missiles etc) which can be set off by heating their outer skin.

[Photo: USAF]

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/09/tactial-laser-l.html

Star Wars - The Next Generation: The Space Based Laser
(from SGR Newsletter 23, July 2001)

Dave Webb on this key military technology and the background to its development

On Tuesday April 24 at 7pm Global Network (GN, Global Network against Weapons and Nuclear Power in Space) members and supporters gathered at the Continuing Education Building of the University of New Mexico to protest. Just a few days previously the campus paper had announced the award of a 'defence' grant to its Electrical and Computer Engineering department for work on a super laser weapon project. Also, just a few blocks away at UNM's Institute for Space and Nuclear Studies, work is being carried out on nuclear power supplies for space vehicles and platforms. What have these two projects in common? The answer lies in the Space-Based Laser Integrated Flight Experiment, which forms what George Bush calls the "next generation weaponry"[1] and is at the heart of our campaign against "weapons and nuclear power in space". Part of the 'experiment' is to build a Space-Based Laser Readiness Demonstrator - this is a scaled down version (at an estimated cost of $1.5 billion) of the proposed weapon system which would eventually be deployed for theater ballistic missile defense and as an anti-satellite weapon[2].

If the SBL IFX is successful, the US Department of Defense will decide whether to deploy a fully operational network of 20-30 laser battle stations giving global coverage. The first launch of an operational system could occur in 2020 and it could take several years to launch the full constellation of spacecraft around Earth. The Pentagon estimates that the total SBL program will cost $30 billion.

Why the nuclear connection? Any pace-based laser will require tremendous amounts of power and, as a study commissioned by the US Congress[3] notes "nuclear reactors thus remain the only known long-lived, compact source able to supply military space forces with electric power" ... nuclear reactors "could meet multimegawatt needs of space-based lasers, neutral particle beams, mass drivers, and railguns."

Also - New World Vistas: Air And Space Power For The 2lst Century[4], states: "In the next two decades, new technologies will allow the fielding of space-based weapons of devastating effectiveness ... These advances will enable lasers with reasonable mass and cost to effect very many kills." But "power limitations ... currently make large space-based radars and space-based weapons relatively unfeasible ... A natural technology to enable high power is nuclear power in space." This is the reason why nuclear power is being developed for use in outer space.

So - the development of a SBL is already well underway - and forms a major part of the US Space Command plans to "dominate" and "master" space[5]. As international weapons expert John Pike has said:

"Whoever controls space has control of Earth ... the United States is unable to resist it. If the U.S. is in a position to control Earth from outer space, there's nothing to stop us. Of course we're going to do it."

In January this year US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld spoke of a "space Pearl Harbor" and a commission he formerly headed unveiled a report calling for tighter security for American space systems. "The US ... needs to take seriously the possibility of an attack on US space systems," said the report "... The US is more dependent on space than any other nation" and the report called for a 'technological push' to foil threats from foreign nations or terrorists[6].

However, as reported in the Spring 2001 GN Newsletter, the environmental assessment for the SBL refers to the possibility of a catastrophic explosion that could result in a sudden release of a large quantity of toxic materials and/or destruction of surrounding structures with additional environmental consequences - although no reason for such an assessment of risk is given. Just another reason why the SBL is nicknamed "Death Star". It is a frighteningly ambitious component of Star Wars to be used as a boost-phase missile interceptor and satellite destroyer

Boost-Phase Missile Interception[7]

Lasers are very attractive to the military because they travel so fast - at the speed of light. Therefore they are being seriously considered for intercepting missiles during their boost-phase. Apart from the SBL, two other methods of achieving this with lasers are currently being funded - airborne and ground based High Energy Laser systems.

Of course, one major difficulty with this approach (apart from the fact that it might be technically difficult - if not impossible - and extremely expensive) is that boost-phase defences would break the ABM Treaty (if it still exists at the time of this presentation!). However - as we know - a number of influential US generals and politicians believe that the laser weapon provides such a valuable defense that it is worth abrogating the treaty[9].

The stated advantages of a boost-phase system for Ballistic Missile Defence Systems are that it would:

* provide another tier of missile defence;
* remove the problem of debris falling over the target area (as occurs with "terminal intercept");
* prevent the deployment of multiple warheads;
* does not require the ability to differentiate between war-heads and decoys;
* would deter the use of payloads through threat of "country of origin impact of debris".

It also, of course, enhances the US first strike capability and its ability to knock out other nation's space hardware. The SBL can also be used for NMD as well as TMD - in fact strategic missiles would be more vulnerable to laser attack in boost phase than theatre missiles because of their longer boost times. They also have higher burn-out altitudes which reduces the atmospheric effects that would interfere with laser beam propagation from space.

An alternative space based system would incorporate fewer SBL platforms (perhaps 3) with a number of orbiting relay mirrors (perhaps 24) to direct the beams. A number of configurations are possible [8] and this type of configuration is favoured by many military[9].

Military Lasers

The Air Force, Army and Navy all started working on lasers in the mid-1960s, and the idea of a SBL has been around since 1977. Initial tests involve a megawatt-class chemical laser with a large, multi-segmented mirror that unfurls and locks into place to create a 13-foot (4-meter) diameter reflecting surface. The entire spacecraft would weigh between 45,000 and 50,000 pounds (20,455 and 22,700 kilograms). The competing lasers are hydrogen fluoride (HF), deuterium fluoride (DF), and chemical oxygen iodine (COIL)[10].

The HF laser uses atomic fluorine and molecular hydrogen to produce excited hydrogen fluorine molecules producing several simultaneous wavelengths in the range of 2.7 - 2.9 microns. At these wavelengths the beam is mostly absorbed by the earth's atmosphere and can only be used above the earth's atmosphere e.g. for the SBL. A HF laser has been test fired at the TRW San Juan Capistrano test facility in California[11].

The DF laser uses deuterium (an isotope of hydrogen) and atomic fluorine. Longer wavelength laser light than for HF lasers is produced (3.5 - 4 microns), giving better transmission through the atmosphere but requiring larger optical surfaces to shape and focus the beam.

The Chemical Oxygen Iodine Laser (COIL) was developed at the Air Force Research Laboratory in Albuquerque in 1977. It is the basis of the $1.2 billion Air Force Airborne Laser Attack Aircraft - scheduled for anti-missile tests in 2003.

n October 1997 the Pentagon conducted a "laser dazzler" test against one of its satellites using the Army's MIRACL DF laser (Mid-Infrared Advanced Chemical Laser) based at White Sands Missile Range, N.M. In 1996 a MIRACL laser shot down a rocket at the same site[12].

A new, lightweight, "all gas" Iodine Laser, or AGIL has also been developed by the Air Force Research Lab. This laser uses nitrogen chloride and iodine which are mixed in a vacuum chamber. AGIL has a better atmospheric transmission, which is important for a laser weapon required to reach targets in the atmosphere or even near the surface of the Earth. A basic weapon-size AGIL laser will take at least until 2003 to develop, demonstrate and test.

The Army's Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL) system is designed by a team led by TRW Corp. After the war in Lebanon in April 1996, Israel was promised by the Clinton administration that the U.S. would help develop a laser-based anti-missile system capable of destroying incoming Katyusha rockets. The US Army and the Israeli Ministry of Defense paid weapons contractor TRW $200 million to build a HF laser to generate a powerful infrared beam that can pass through the atmosphere.

On 6 June 2000 the THEL intercepted and destroyed an armed Russian made Katyusha rocket at White Sands Missile Range, N.M. and on Aug. 28 and Sept 14 the demonstrator shot down two rockets launched in succession. The system detected the 10 foot long, 5 inch diameter rocket with its radar before shooting it down. THEL has a range of about 12 miles and costs about $3,000 per destroyed rocket to use.

The U.S. military's first high energy weapon is likely to be the Airborne Laser mounted on a Boeing 747, it is being designed to acquire, track, and destroy theatre ballistic missiles[13]. The system is expected to be deployed in 10 years. The Air Force has proposed spending $11 billion to develop a fleet of seven airborne lasers that could be used for battlefield anti-missile defense at a cost of about $10,000 per shot, based on the price of the laser fuel.

Last month Raytheon Electronic Systems, a subcontractor to Lockheed Martin Space Systems, carried out a 'first light' test of the Track Illuminator Laser (TILL) at the High Energy Laser Centre in El Segundo in California. The TILL is part of the Beam Control/Fire Control system for the US Air Force's Airborne Laser (ABL) programme, which will aim and fire a high-energy laser at a target missile in its boost phase.

However, also last month Nathan Kopeika of Ben-Gurion University told a conference in Florida that he believes engineers working on the Airborne Laser (ABL) project have overlooked the effect of tiny dust particles in the atmosphere, called aerosols. These could scatter and weaken the laser beam, making it incapable of destroying incoming missiles. "We found that, after a propagation of 100 kilometres, aerosols can widen a laser beam up to a cross section one kilometre wide--several orders of magnitude worse than optical turbulence," he said[14].

The Space Based Laser represents the ultimate in current military thinking about space weaponry and demonstrates the extent to which the US Space Command is prepared to go to realize their vision of domination. We must continue to bring these issues to the attention of the citizens of the world - this is no way to spend our limited resources, no way to increase global security, no way to take our first steps outside our own planet. We must strive to keep space for peace.

On 21 December, 2000, the Stennis Space Center, Mississippi, was selected as the site of the SBL performance test facility. Local people will be holding a vigil at the site on 12 May and on 13 October there will be an action at Stennis as part of the GN International Day of Action.

More information and links on the SBL can be obtained from the Federation of American Scientists' web-site - http://www.fas.org

More details about the continuing campaign against weapons in space from the Global Network web-site - http://space4peace.org

SPACE BASED LASER INTEGRATED FLIGHT EXPERIMENT
(SBL IFX)

In February 1999, a joint $4 billion venture between the U.S. Air Force and Lockheed Martin (Sunnyvale, California), Boeing (Canoga Park, California) and TRW (El Segundo, California) formed the SBL IFX. The program is funded by the U.S. Air Force and the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization and managed by the U.S. Air Force's Space and Missile Systems Center (SMC) in Los Angeles California.

The program's objective is to conduct a research effort to advance and assess the feasibility of the Space Based Laser (SBL) concept and its technologies, culminating in an SBL ballistic missile defense (BMD) demonstration in space, as well as an assessment of non-BMD mission utility.
- SBL IFX Fact Sheet(emphasis added)

It is supposed to intercept enemy ballistic missiles and kill hostile satellites from space. It is due to go into orbit in 2012 and carry out tests for about three years However, if Congress votes to accelerate funding it could be space-based and ready to test by 2010.

SBL IFX has included programs such as Mid-Infrared Advanced Chemical Laser (MIRACL), High Energy Laser System Test Facility (HELSTF), Alpha, Large Optics Demonstration Experiment (LODE), Large Advanced Mirror Program (LAMP), Alpha-LAMP Integration (ALI), Talon Gold, Zenith Star and Airborne Laser (ABL).

The Contractors
Boeing - leader of the Team Airborne Laser (ABL) (with Lockheed and TRW). Responsible for the weapon system integration and supplying the 747-400F aircraft and battle management, command, control, communications, computers and intelligence.
Lockheed Martin - supply the Beam Control/Fire Control system that points and fires the weapon with sufficient energy to destroy the target. Provides the acquisition, tracking and beam control expertise, as well as significant spacecraft integration skills for the Space-Based Laser (SBL) program.
TRW - design and development of the system's COIL laser and providing ground support. (Lynne Cheney recently resigned from the board of Lockheed Martin, Dick Cheney has been a member of the board of TRW.)

http://www.sgr.org.uk/ArmsControl/StarWarsNG_NL23.htm

To maintain an altitude orbit would need to be able at minimum this distance in range to be covered by the laser platform.

A Low Earth Orbit (LEO) is generally defined as an orbit within the locus extending from the Earth’s surface up to an altitude of 2,000 km. Given the rapid orbital decay of objects below approximately 200 km, the commonly accepted definition for LEO is between 160 - 2000 km (100 - 1240 miles) above the Earth's surface.[1][2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Earth_orbit

dave52

12-09-2008, 11:26 AM

Who makes the decision to initiate the detonations or utilize the DEW?

Mr Evil and all his witchy little helpers...

The specs on laser weapons at the cutting edge are all well known.

If it's in the public domain, it's old technology.

mynameis

12-09-2008, 11:32 AM

Mr Evil and all his witchy little helpers...

If it's in the public domain, it's old technology.

No, it means you aren't informed with or about the actual state of the art. Do your research. Do you think all these researchers sit in a bubble or a vaccuum and make up shit? They publish scientific papers etc...

christophera

12-09-2008, 10:53 PM

No, it means you aren't informed with or about the actual state of the art. Do your research. Do you think all these researchers sit in a bubble or a vaccuum and make up shit? They publish scientific papers etc...

dave appears to suffer from the misconception that government and military exist in another reality where they have technology we have never heard of.

Factually, the private sector is where 90 % of the technology originates. And if it is not originating there, the private sector figures out how execute what military think tanks dream up.

In this way little facts, basically secrets on another level, leak out.

The misconception is one that the psyop of the last 25 years conducted by secret government, the infiltration of the US gov, has ben energetically promoting.

A visible escalation of that psyops, which shows a level of success, is when people who considered themselves sub/counter culture began displaying a bumper sticker as if they considered themselves "cool" and patriotic while presenting a functional, rational position. It is none of those.

I love my country but I fear my government.

Between that and films such as "Men in black". The bumper sticker and the movie work together to make fear "cool" and reasonable, when it is not.

Such ability to place the gift of reason where it does not exist opens the door for reasoning that accepts that the government is omnipotent and hopelessly dominant over us. It also enables the false logic that technology far beyond our awareness is not only developed by government but developed to the point where no one or anything is safe or out of its reach, justifying another level of fear.

The fact is that American technology of all types is in decline except for computer programming and some associated, hard information technology. The government has been getting dumber as Americans were dumbed down, which is logical if the concept of Americans being the basis of government is acknowledged. Hence the exportation of much technology to India and China which has the dual effect of making Americans dumber yet and creating even greater dependence on the false economy of foreign oil with acceptance of more unconstitutional control and actions.

christophera

13-09-2008, 10:12 PM

Accordingly, with a segment of the population willing to believe that the US government is capable of high tech omnipotent surveillance and attack, they are not inclined to involve themselves with activism of any kind. Instead they set an example that might be defended as logical which is to furtively associate with any high tech explanation for mysterious events that comes along.

graflok

14-09-2008, 01:38 AM

christophera

14-09-2008, 04:25 AM

Translation: "no-planers are a bunch of poo-poo heads." :)

I won't say that, but sometimes I feel that way because something very important is being disrupted in its natural progress.

That issue I've mentioned many times, MKultra, rears its ugly head. Those suffering from it, fear in many ways learning of how they've been controlled more than anything. So if NPT thinking is compelled by unconscious programming, we need to learn to take the stigma out of it and have compassion for those effected psychologically. It will be difficult enough as it is for them.

Conditioning in deep trance states at childhood, memory control, conditional programming, all a part of the potentials for MKultra that we cannot gain the accountability we need n order to know. This is 14 years before designs of the Towers were started that the project began. I can find no other explanation for many of the behaviors I see.

But most of all that western fear based tendency to stigmatize those who might have been programmed unconsciously to interact with information so compelling to them that it completely overshadows any other type thinking they might want to choose to conduct; needs to be lost. Indeed, it is that very fear and its partner behavior of ridicule that was used to condition us as a society to make us not want to engage an understanding of our unconscious existence, but instead to simply indulge its many wants and desires and thereby corrupt us. Once that was accomplished, the infiltration was complete and the society ready for take over, transition to slave based society dictatorship working 2 classes of subjects against each other.

A cathartic event, a ritual, shocking some unconscious minds into the sequence of conditional programming, 9-11, the NPT'ers have been awoken and we need to understand them, so they can understand themselves.

So, if we wish to avoid that, if it is just a simple but irrational belief we observe and object to, to have tolerence and continue the dialog; indeed encourage it with an occasional foray into the deeper truths and understandings of them we might develop which could assist those who could remember the manipulation of their unconscious and stop allowing it, then expose it; benefits us all.

graflok

14-09-2008, 05:35 AM

I won't say that, but sometimes I feel that way because something very important is being disrupted in its natural progress.

That issue I've mentioned many times, MKultra, rears its ugly head. Those suffering from it, fear in many ways learning of how they've been controlled more than anything. So if NPT thinking is compelled by unconscious programming, we need to learn to take the stigma out of it and have compassion for those effected psychologically. It will be difficult enough as it is for them.

Conditioning in deep trance states at childhood, memory control, conditional programming, all a part of the potentials for MKultra that we cannot gain the accountability we need n order to know. This is 14 years before designs of the Towers were started that the project began. I can find no other explanation for many of the behaviors I see.

But most of all that western fear based tendency to stigmatize those who might have been programmed unconsciously to interact with information so compelling to them that it completely overshadows any other type thinking they might want to choose to conduct; needs to be lost. Indeed, it is that very fear and its partner behavior of ridicule that was used to condition us as a society to make us not want to engage an understanding of our unconscious existence, but instead to simply indulge its many wants and desires and thereby corrupt us. Once that was accomplished, the infiltration was complete and the society ready for take over, transition to slave based society dictatorship working 2 classes of subjects against each other.

A cathartic event, a ritual, shocking some unconscious minds into the sequence of conditional programming, 9-11, the NPT'ers have been awoken and we need to understand them, so they can understand themselves.

So, if we wish to avoid that, if it is just a simple but irrational belief we observe and object to, to have tolerence and continue the dialog; indeed encourage it with an occasional foray into the deeper truths and understandings of them we might develop which could assist those who could remember the manipulation of their unconscious and stop allowing it, then expose it; benefits us all.

Hey, chris, old boy -- there were no planes. It was a magic trick. A psyop. A scam. :)

fromthatshow

14-09-2008, 06:54 AM

I don't necessarily need to see evidence. I just go with my intution.

christophera

14-09-2008, 07:29 AM

Hey, chris, old boy -- there were no planes. It was a magic trick. A psyop. A scam. :)

Then there were remotes and they create options that were obviously not used so therefore, the events as they transpired, ......... themselves disprove your assertion.

The plane huggers have real evidence and the NPT'ers have nothing but fake evidence, which does not prove all evidence regarding planes is faked.

The continued efforts to present such evidence as anything but fakes proves that the NPT'er are suffering from unreasonable compulsions because they cannot reason.

banoyes

14-09-2008, 02:10 PM

Then there were remotes and they create options that were obviously not used so therefore, the events as they transpired, ......... themselves disprove your assertion.

The plane huggers have real evidence and the NPT'ers have nothing but fake evidence, which does not prove all evidence regarding planes is faked.

The continued efforts to present such evidence as anything but fakes proves that the NPT'er are suffering from unreasonable compulsions because they cannot reason.

The most convoluted,non connective,illogical poster,perhaps on the entire web

christophera

14-09-2008, 08:03 PM

The most convoluted,non connective,illogical poster,perhaps on the entire web

Seeing as you cannot come up with a logical reason for the perps to make people think the first tower hit was WTC 1 or why WTC 2 was demoed first, your continued proposal that there were no planes is what is illogical.

dave52

14-09-2008, 10:16 PM

I'm still waiting for your reasoning behind this Christophera... Can we please keep that topic in the thread you invented for me please.

Me, me me...! :cool:

christophera

14-09-2008, 11:44 PM

I'm still waiting for your reasoning behind this Christophera... Can we please keep that topic in the thread you invented for me please.

Me, me me...! :cool:

Okay, here is dave52's page (http://algoxy.com/psych/whatis9-11disinfo-npt.html). But rather than me write it over and over, just re-read the page.

dave52

15-09-2008, 08:00 AM

Okay, here is dave52's page (http://algoxy.com/psych/whatis9-11disinfo-npt.html). But rather than me write it over and over, just re-read the page.

I've just read that page - you appear to be trying to put words into my mouth there. I have consistantly maintained that planes had nothing to do with the destruction of the twin towers - on this we agree.

If you want to cling on to Muslims flying planes into towers - you go for it, but I think you're better off sticking to the Concreat Core stuff...

Just to expand on that - you believe the towers were constructed specifically to be brought down in the explosive manner we all saw on 9/11. 30 odd years in the planning and construction of such a deed and your perps rely on a bunch of box-cutter wielding religious fanatics (some of which were not tip-top pilots) to carry out the single most important part of the plan. Planes had to be "seen" to hit the towers in order for there to be a reason for the collapse. All those years of planning and you give some lunatic a small knife and say - go for it - change the world.

There are so many risks attached to that strategy...!

christophera

15-09-2008, 09:32 AM

I've just read that page - you appear to be trying to put words into my mouth there. I have consistantly maintained that planes had nothing to do with the destruction of the twin towers - on this we agree.

If you want to cling on to Muslims flying planes into towers - you go for it, but I think you're better off sticking to the Concreat Core stuff...

I agree with you there, but too many are busy with the NPT and it poisons the psychological environment of reason, so bashing NPT is a prepatory event. And, it might have been another type paid pilot and Muslims are just providing the identity. I see human error and unpredictability. However, I can see that the structure of timers and live pilots provides excellent anonymity and with powerful people protecting the operation, it would be the best way to escape scrutiny just to be well isolated from any aspect.

Just to expand on that - you believe the towers were constructed specifically to be brought down in the explosive manner we all saw on 9/11. 30 odd years in the planning and construction of such a deed and your perps rely on a bunch of box-cutter wielding religious fanatics (some of which were not tip-top pilots) to carry out the single most important part of the plan. Planes had to be "seen" to hit the towers in order for there to be a reason for the collapse. All those years of planning and you give some lunatic a small knife and say - go for it - change the world.

There are so many risks attached to that strategy...!

I feel the Muslims were heavily aided in the takeover of the planes, if there were other passengers. In some ways, since learning that those planes were not actually scheduled to fly that day, it seems more likely that they were given empty planes. The entire unaccountabilty of the FAA and air traffic controller data shows us that no avenue of investigation relying on official accountability is going to work.

Consider that the perps probably knew, through channels, that the Muslim pilots had been in training for years and had tested them in various ways, while having many strings attached and had seen them perform reliably.

Then consider they had already used and empowered bomb wielding religious fanatics to conduct the 1993 basement bombing, we actually have a proven track record. Did you know about that?

dave52

15-09-2008, 10:00 AM

Then consider they had already used and empowered bomb wielding religious fanatics to conduct the 1993 basement bombing, we actually have a proven track record. Did you know about that?

I agree, but a truck bomb in a basement, or four ruck-sack bombs on the London Underground is a piece of piss compared to flying airliners into buildings. Infiltrating small groups and radicalising them to do bad things is stock in trade to the intelligence services - no one's questioning that - but that is a huge leap to the alleged planes of 9/11.

keystone

15-09-2008, 10:22 AM

dave52

15-09-2008, 10:26 AM

Perhaps but it's only a question of scale and imagination on behalf of the perps.

No... no it isn't. Brainwashing some young disaffected muslim lad to go and blow himself up on a tube train is hugely different from training someone up and relying on them to fly a plane into a building. No amount of imagination would allow that kind of risk.

Don't forget - no successful plane crash, no collapsing tower. If your brainwashed kid gets on a bus instead of a train - you still get a big bang and dead commuters.

graflok

15-09-2008, 04:18 PM

Then there were remotes and they create options that were obviously not used so therefore, the events as they transpired, ......... themselves disprove your assertion.

The plane huggers have real evidence and the NPT'ers have nothing but fake evidence, which does not prove all evidence regarding planes is faked.

The continued efforts to present such evidence as anything but fakes proves that the NPT'er are suffering from unreasonable compulsions because they cannot reason.

There were no planes, remote control or otherwise. You've been had. :D

mynameis

15-09-2008, 06:19 PM

There were no planes, remote control or otherwise. You've been had. :D

Here's my litmus test....Can wood stop a cannonball? Answer truthfully NPTers.

Can ice break steel?

Can water cut steel?

christophera

15-09-2008, 09:00 PM

I agree, but a truck bomb in a basement, or four ruck-sack bombs on the London Underground is a piece of piss compared to flying airliners into buildings. Infiltrating small groups and radicalising them to do bad things is stock in trade to the intelligence services - no one's questioning that - but that is a huge leap to the alleged planes of 9/11.

Correct, but a fully feasible one that costs the Muslims very little to prepare for. All they have to do is train some pilots to be able to conduct aerobatic manuevers in jetliners which costs about 10k in fuel over some years as airliners delivering oilfield equipment provide opportunity to cut the string on a weather balloon on the trip home.

After you watch them cut about 40 balloon strings without fail, under artificially applied adverse condtions to assure they can compensate, your risks are very much diminished.

And, we can show there was a backup plane, flight 93. Evidenced to be a nonsensical holding pattern killing time, waiting. Exactly what your concerns would call for in compensation of the possible screw up.

mr_self_destruct

15-09-2008, 09:38 PM

Sometimes I just think everything would be easier if the rest of the world was right, and we are all fucking mental.

dave52

15-09-2008, 10:00 PM

Sometimes I just think everything would be easier if the rest of the world was right, and we are all fucking mental.

LOL - I sometimes think we are... :D

mr_self_destruct

15-09-2008, 10:12 PM

LOL - I sometimes think we are... :D

Fuck me, I'm just sat here reading us all debating the intricate details of a conspiracy and I think, "they're right, we're just absolutely fucking nuts".

christophera

15-09-2008, 10:23 PM

Fuck me, I'm just sat here reading us all debating the intricate details of a conspiracy and I think, "they're right, we're just absolutely fucking nuts".

Whenever the conscious mind examines the beliefs of the unconscious, the conscious stands a good chance of deeming the unconscious nuts IF they are 2 separate minds. If they are both in the same head then the hidden connection of the unconscious to the conscious provides internal assurance that no one else can percieve, that whatever the unconscous is doing is done for a substancially valid reason but will be totally unable to provide substantiation.

Sound familiar?

mr_self_destruct

15-09-2008, 10:34 PM

Sound familiar?

Not really to be honest mate :) Can you put it into laymans terms for me? :)

dave52

15-09-2008, 10:46 PM

Not really to be honest mate :) Can you put it into laymans terms for me? :)

LOL again...! It took me about 20 posts and my very own thread just for him to explain the meaning of one question... :rolleyes:

christophera

15-09-2008, 10:59 PM

LOL again...! It took me about 20 posts and my very own thread just for him to explain the meaning of one question...

Actually, it took you 20 posts to understand it after you failed elsewhere. Many got the issue immediately.:rolleyes:

mr_self_destruct

15-09-2008, 11:19 PM

Come on lads, lay off the :rolleyes: ...we're all friends here :D

christophera

16-09-2008, 12:10 AM

Come on lads, lay off the :rolleyes: ...we're all friends here :D

That is true, and friends don't let friends drive drunk. Or derail critical discussion with insubstancial information, misinformation.

tracker

16-09-2008, 12:12 AM

how easily am i misslead ?

erm ?

i think the answer is somwhere in the question .

so :confused:

what was the issue :o

:D

christophera

16-09-2008, 12:46 AM

how easily am i misslead ?

erm ?

i think the answer is somwhere in the question .

so :confused:

what was the issue :o

:D

A covert psyops by the infiltrated US governement has programmed citizens to become obsessed with misinformation then promoted them into positions of leadership where they are decieving and misleading thousands.

While this happens, perfectly logical people do the logical thing and FORGET about the quest for 9-11 truth because of the nonsense a few prominent people have been able to make popular with the promotion.

christophera

20-09-2008, 08:54 PM

Apparently the obvious problem that NPT has, no evidence other than fake video evidence, ironically proving video evidence can be faked substanciating claims in a circular fashion thereby proving their evidence is fake.

christophera

21-09-2008, 07:38 PM

LOL again...! It took me about 20 posts and my very own thread just for him to explain the meaning of one question...

And you still haven't provided a simple, logical reason to explain the fundamental event you assert happened. You say there were no planes. If that is true why did the perps use their control to create a backwards impact/fall sequence?

christophera

21-09-2008, 10:07 PM

christophera

22-09-2008, 10:01 AM

Many very advanced researchers of 9-11 have told me that it is completely naive to think that an operation such as 9-11 would not have an IMMENSE psyops campaign covering it, if indeed it were to exist.

So, .......... who here is not capable of considering that , the pod, NPT, nuke, DEW, remotes, all the things that really do not have any substancial or verifiable basis are actually psyops, COINTELPRO items promoted to mislead and distract real research thereby preventing any unification?

size_of_light

22-09-2008, 10:06 AM

christophera

22-09-2008, 10:19 AM

I've only read the last page of your thread, but I think in the essence of what you're saying you are abso-fucking-lutely right on the money, sir.

I think if you counted my posts in the last six years it would be somewhere in the 25 k range. I started message board activism with a passionin '02 and saw a completely unified robust front of BS, all ready for me. I've been disecting their crap ever since. Here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=57426&page=115) is an amazing 260k view thread with 11k posts. 2.5k mine.

I really do believe that a person that has no idea they are being duped and has been psychologically manipulated as a child with hypnosis, memory control, and post hypnotics exploiting instincts, can be told to believe that there were no planes and that "when they see the video showing" the planes doing impossible things. they will know that it is true. There were no planes THEN, they will FEEL like they must go out and tell everybody on the computer". MKultra, a proven, known element of history, illicit, secret psychologically potent impositions on Americans for 20 years. WE NEVER learned why MKultra was done except "national security". Is that like the "the continuity of government" and "the office of special plans?".

mynameis

25-09-2008, 08:32 PM

Bump...to get back on track...I listened to your recording of the mp3. I don't know about the mp3, but I hope the guy eventually finds a copy of said missing video. Where'd you see or find the graphic showing that the box columns or perimeter may have been weaker thin solid-steel tubes.

stannrodd

23-10-2008, 12:51 AM

One of the most effective tools for misleading the publics quest for truth is congesting the public discussion areas with useless information.

It is up to the truth movement to be discerning enough to NOT support information that cannot be used to gain more truth.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj16/stannrodd/im958lguq5.jpg

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj16/stannrodd/im_836_lg.jpg

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj16/stannrodd/im_612_lg.jpg

A huge collection of WTC construction photos is available for public use at this address. Hi resolution images are available for purchase to the discerning collector of facts.

http://www.skyscraper.org/WEB_PROJECTS/VIVA2/viva2_intro.htm#

Click on the Launch Viva2 link to find the interactive resource.

There was no concrete core. Christopher's theory that the Twin Towers had concrete cores is blatantly false.

One of the most effective tools for misleading the publics quest for truth is congesting the public discussion areas with useless information.

This is exactly what he does. Spreads useless information.

You can check out his garbage at this address if you really want to see the lengths he will go to push this very illogical theory.

CLICK HERE (http://www.breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2854)

Stann:)

lightgiver

23-10-2008, 01:19 AM

Apparently the psyops of misinformation that was imposed on America concerning technology, or that US military has technology that is omnipotent, has successfully gotten the NPTists to invest completely in fantasy and they have no need of reality any longer. Whereupon they assist the perps in misleading people who are interested in the truth and they do this based on NO PROOF and attempt it with NO PROOF.

Awesome! wow, modern Americans are so educated and competent. (bad joke)

EDIT:In reality it is not so much Americas fault as it exists contemporarily. The reason that the nation has been so easily mislead is that fears thousands of years old have been invoked and become instinctual to a degree. They are not natural fears. They are contrived and cultivated in the people to keep them from examining the methods of controlling them.

Hi cristophera,i wonder why 911 is not being re investigated?

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/7655/chertofftheisraelild3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Michael Chertoff, Homeland Security chief,
is an Israeli through his mother.
As Asst. Attorney General running
the Criminal Division at the Dept. of Justice in 2001,
he supervised the "non-investigation" of 9-11.

do you really believe a plane hit the pentagram?

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34906&page=2

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/6469/pentfireballnu1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.edgemediatv.com/watchonli...ontheedge.html

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?doc...ane+site&hl=en

http://www.bollyn.info/articles/911/theisraelinetworkbehind911/

http://www.bilderberg.org/roundtable/emhitler.html

lightgiver

23-10-2008, 01:35 AM

Hi cristophera,i wonder why 911 is not being re investigated?

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/7655/chertofftheisraelild3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Michael Chertoff, Homeland Security chief,
is an Israeli through his mother.
As Asst. Attorney General running
the Criminal Division at the Dept. of Justice in 2001,
he supervised the "non-investigation" of 9-11.

do you really believe a plane hit the pentagram?

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34906&page=2

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/6469/pentfireballnu1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.edgemediatv.com/watchonli...ontheedge.html

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?doc...ane+site&hl=en

http://www.bollyn.info/articles/911/theisraelinetworkbehind911/

http://www.bilderberg.org/roundtable/emhitler.html

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

and i have just been stupid posting this twice:o:D

Harel, formerly the director of Haganah intelligence in the 1940s, is seen as the founder of Israeli intelligence. The Haganah and Irgun were the largest Zionist militia/terrorist organizations in Palestine prior to the creation of Israel in 1948. Both organizations were involved in the terror bombing of the King David Hotel and other acts of terrorism.

Harel was evidently involved in the long-term planning of 9-11. More than 20 years earlier he had told Michael D. Evans, an American Zionist missionary, that terrorism would "come to America." Arab terrorists would strike the tallest building in New York City, "a symbol of your fertility," Harel said.
http://www.bollyn.info/articles/911/...workbehind911/

"I want to tell you something very clear. Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America and the Americans know it."
- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, October 2001

A precision hit all right. But… retired commercial airline / military pilot, Russ Wittenberg, who flew for Pan Am and United for over 30 years, piloted Flight 93 (Shanksville) and Flight 175 (South Tower) before 9/11. He says the alleged hijackers could not have flown those planes:

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=o1eEHAs284Q

christophera

25-10-2008, 09:38 AM

do you really believe a plane hit the pentagram?

No, the 5 thing was hit by a supersonic cruise missile, but the WTC was whacked by planes. The 5 thing is a red herring for the WTC as the pentoid witnesses are mind controlled. The 5 thing is to distract from the achilles heel of 9-11, the structural issue the quasi authority of the truth movement happens to refuse to examine and instead believes official sources without question against all evidence contributing to an "impossible" scenario, easier to forget and walk away from.

This causes less informed and focused people to want to talk about the 5 thing and planes. Nasty, dysfunctional cycle that pleases the shit out of the perps.

stannrodd

25-10-2008, 09:52 AM

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj16/stannrodd/im958lguq5.jpg

deckard

25-10-2008, 02:08 PM

the twin towers is like the titanic of the twenty first century.
Just something in that photo got me abit.

lightgiver

25-10-2008, 08:22 PM

No, the 5 thing was hit by a supersonic cruise missile, but the WTC was whacked by planes. The 5 thing is a red herring for the WTC as the pentoid witnesses are mind controlled. The 5 thing is to distract from the achilles heel of 9-11, the structural issue the quasi authority of the truth movement happens to refuse to examine and instead believes official sources without question against all evidence contributing to an "impossible" scenario, easier to forget and walk away from.

This causes less informed and focused people to want to talk about the 5 thing and planes. Nasty, dysfunctional cycle that pleases the shit out of the perps.

I like to keep an open mind,until the 911 false flag is investigated correctly.

chopper 4,thats all i can say.

can peeps not forget to put TITLE on their posts,to help spread the message across the web.

christophera

28-11-2008, 10:10 AM

I like to keep an open mind,until the 911 false flag is investigated correctly.

chopper 4,thats all i can say.

can peeps not forget to put TITLE on their posts,to help spread the message across the web.

It would be nice to get a real investigation. It appears that in order to compel such a thing we will have to have a very good reason to demand it.

The many areas of misinformation, the main method of misleading and deception are rampant and populations which have had the line between reality and fantasy blurred by media tools, are unable to resist the obsession with sensationalistic intrigue that comprise the counter truth psyops.

Only a very simple concept has value at a time like this. And if you can add to this a significant number people vocal and recognizing the concept, the concept can pivot the attention of groups that can in turn involve the total.

The concept I see as most functional is that there has never been a due process analysis of the collapse that killed 3,000. The one that was done didn't have the plans and was deceived about the structure they were analyzing.

Just that one little part needs to be done right. We have a right to demand this.

shabun

28-11-2008, 10:40 AM

christophera

28-11-2008, 08:37 PM

In my view the best way to get this exposed is to focus all efforts on the Tower 7 CD. That is the one that seems to me to be the most easily proven to be an inside job (because it has the actual video evidence of the demolition and lots more). Once the public are convinced about that, then they will naturally be a lot more suspicious of the rest, so the floodgates will open. I myself was sceptical about an inside job until I saw the tower 7 CD.

You are correct about the basic evidence of CD. However, because it was privately owned, authority only has to say it's "not their concern because there was no loss of life".

The due process issue is a HUGE Constitutional violation with mass murder numbers of 3,000. We have every legal right to demand and authority has every obligation of duty to see that a full and complete understanding is gained of the Twin Towers and their supposed "collapse".

On the other hand, if we focus on holograms, reptilians, and aliens, then the public will switch off at the outset and call us "wackos" and there will be no chance to get to the truth.

Amen, ........ one great we need we have is to recognize how easily we are dismissed if we even mention those things. Thanks for posting that simple fact. Now lets enforce it by a reverse psyops IN OUR CONTROL.

We need to unify in TOTAL ridicule of those who publically post such nonsense. A decent percentage of them are agents and will not care. Their paycheck covers that kind of abuse. The others will quit immediately.

patrish

29-11-2008, 10:09 AM

christophera

29-11-2008, 11:04 AM

http://www.ae911truth.org/info/7

very interesting thread

The link above shows that some credible research into 9/11. No aliens or the like, just the evidence. More and more people are asking for a new independant enquiry.

Patrish x

We don't believe that either of those theories are supported by the available evidence."

Too bad he will not comment on the evidence for a steel reinforced cast concrete tubular core, (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/southcorestands.gif) or provide photographic evidence of steel core columns in the core area, the core FEMA says existed.

http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/femacore.gif

Is never seen on 9-11.

There are entire web sites dedicated to the fact.

http://www.911truthvirus.com/id18.html

Misleading the truth movement about the core was essential for 2 reasons.

1) No one would believe that fire was the cause of them coming down.
2) Without a coherent theory, the misinformation of; pods, missiles (wtc) holograms, no planes, DEW, all had fertile ground to grow and poison the public perceptions of the movement.

realllly

02-12-2008, 12:56 PM

Right, that's the whole idea. IF there were no planes, you see how well it works for them due to that being the dominant mindset? People laughed in Pteolmy's face when he said the earth wasn't flat.

It's difficult to continuously realize that ALL of your belief patterns are simply inherited from others, who are largely idiots due to inherited belief patterns. When I throw all that crap out and think for myself, I can't possibly see a plane going in there like that. I can however see a hologram on top of a missile in the doctored footage. Feel free to laugh in my face, I might be wrong.

What garbage. Your claiming a plane dident hit the towers, give me a break.
Despite the fact there is video footage (prove its fake) and the loss of lives you still chose to believe such nonsense.
It is nonsense at its best. Sure, maybe 911 was an inside job, although thats not my opinion, a plane defiantly hit the world trade centres.
Are you full of such hatred against the government and the people you chose to ignore the obvious.
I'm happy for people to make up theorys but when there is no evidence, and much evidence to the other it really fires me up.

christophera

02-12-2008, 04:19 PM

What garbage. Your claiming a plane dident hit the towers, give me a break.
Despite the fact there is video footage (prove its fake) and the loss of lives you still chose to believe such nonsense.
It is nonsense at its best. Sure, maybe 911 was an inside job, although thats not my opinion, a plane defiantly hit the world trade centres.
Are you full of such hatred against the government and the people you chose to ignore the obvious.
I'm happy for people to make up theorys but when there is no evidence, and much evidence to the other it really fires me up.

Not to mention what damage such unfounded beliefs do to to the movement for truth. For many I know that were sincerely interested, the "no plane" psyops was the last straw. Now, ALL 9-11 information is BS.

Hard to believe that some can be so completely mislead on evidence which simply says, "Because video can be faked, all video is faked", then they go out and put well established facts down which have nothing to do with video. It is easier to believe they are a paid disinfo or mind controlled.

dave52

02-12-2008, 11:48 PM

Sure, maybe 911 was an inside job, although thats not my opinion

What's the point of you even being here...? And before anyone jumps on me with some PC crap about people being entitled to their oppinion - really, what is the point?

If you think 9/11 went down the way the US Government tells you it did - why are you on the DI Forum...? Oh yeah, I believe that we are all just infinate conciousness, and that reptillians from another dimension are pulling the strings - but 9/11 an inside job.... woah, that's some way out shit...

Just go back to sleep and worry about the environment instead...

I've just been on MSN to check my Hotmail. 3rd down in the headlines was a story about job losses, after a story about Gordan Ramsey having an affair and someone on Corination Street getting his "come-upance".

I dispair...

shabun

02-12-2008, 11:54 PM

What's the point of you even being here...? And before anyone jumps on me with some PC crap about people being entitled to their oppinion - really, what is the point?

If you think 9/11 went down the way the US Government tells you it did - why are you on the DI Forum...? Oh yeah, I believe that we are all just infinate conciousness, and that reptillians from another dimension are pulling the strings - but 9/11 an inside job.... woah, that's some way out shit...

Just fuck off back to sleep and worry about the environment instead...

I've just been on MSN to check my Hotmail. 3rd down in the headlines was a story about job losses, after a story about Gordan Ramsey having an affair and someone on Corination Street getting his "come-upance".

I dispair...

It may not be his opinion, but the fact he is on this site means hew may look at stuff and come to a different view. When I joined this site I was on the official line, but all that changed when I saw the video of T7, now I am convinced it was an inside job. Give people a chance to check the evidence without telling them to fuck off, and it may end up to everyones benefit.

christophera

06-12-2008, 07:02 PM

It may not be his opinion, but the fact he is on this site means hew may look at stuff and come to a different view. When I joined this site I was on the official line, but all that changed when I saw the video of T7, now I am convinced it was an inside job. Give people a chance to check the evidence without telling them to fuck off, and it may end up to everyones benefit.

The general adversity created by the misinformation of the psyops and continual manipulation by agents of the infiltrated US government is intended to cause rejection of one group and their beliefs by other groups.

Evidence and reason across the spectrum of what we do know and con prove is the only way out of this mess.

Good advice, check evidence WITH reason and logic before rejecting. See that others can recognize the same evidence and reasoned logic. If they do, there is unity, something vital to protect and create.

secondsun

07-12-2008, 08:32 AM

Are you full of such hatred against the government and the people you chose to ignore the obvious.

...who`s ignoring the obvious!?... your Government is`nt on your side!

Just go back to sleep and worry about the environment instead...

Dave ...people `wake up` slowly!... a little unfair maybe!?... give him time!... only problem there is time is running out!... but maybe we never had enough time in the first place!?... the Division Bell will ring at some point!

Now, ALL 9-11 information is BS.

... i must say i doubt your true integrity!... obviously not all 9-11 info is BS!... but your concrete core stuff does stink a bit!... your the only person on the planet that seems to have lost there sense of smell!?

lhaull

07-12-2008, 09:54 AM

What garbage. Your claiming a plane dident hit the towers, give me a break.
Despite the fact there is video footage (prove its fake) and the loss of lives you still chose to believe such nonsense.
It is nonsense at its best. Sure, maybe 911 was an inside job, although thats not my opinion, a plane defiantly hit the world trade centres.
Are you full of such hatred against the government and the people you chose to ignore the obvious.
I'm happy for people to make up theorys but when there is no evidence, and much evidence to the other it really fires me up.

Reallly, can I ask if it is not your opinion that 9/11 was an inside job, could you perhaps tell me your opinion about the passport found in the rubble of the towers, the hijackers who were named on the FBI website and were said to have perished in the blasts, 6 of whom subsequently turned up alive and well with no knowledge of ever hijacking planes, the insurance policies on the towers which was renewed and adapted to include terrorist attacks, 6 weeks prior to 9/11. The missing gold bullion from beneath the World Trade Centre Towers, the chemical signatures of Thermite (possibly wrong spelling) found at the towers, the mouton steel found 6 weeks after 9/11 and how it got there as jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel.

Any answers which you have researched would be great.

christophera

07-12-2008, 10:12 AM

Not to mention what damage such unfounded beliefs do to to the movement for truth. For many I know that were sincerely interested, the "no plane" psyops was the last straw. Now, ALL 9-11 information is BS.

.
... i must say i doubt your true integrity!... obviously not all 9-11 info is BS!... but your concrete core stuff does stink a bit!... your the only person on the planet that seems to have lost there sense of smell!?

Did you notice I refer to others and don't believe that myself. Because of the no plane syndrome, many Americans who were following 9-11 truth seeking now believe "ALL 9-11 information is BS". Which would be exactly the intent of the NPT psyops, to marginalize the entire movement.

mr_self_destruct

07-12-2008, 02:55 PM

New collapse footage

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=U8lrTy5mrZY

christophera

07-12-2008, 09:13 PM

New collapse footage

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=U8lrTy5mrZY

That video is comprised partly of clips from the first video linked below. The second has a view I'd never seen before.

See the guide rail support just inside the concrete core wall get dragged down as
the wall falls between 13 and 14 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIZp6aOibiM

See the huge piece of concrete wall at 17 seconds which is seen
again from a helicopter here (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc.1core.fall.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dWBBEtA5bI

christophera

16-12-2008, 07:42 PM

This post is from another board where the disinformation agents are being exposed trying to falsify images of WTC 2 lobby to appear as WTC 1. The reason is that WTC 2 had elevators that opened into the lobby and WTC 1 did not. They hope to show there was not enough space for the thick concrete core wall to disprove the concrete core rather than providing an image of the alternative core presented by FEMA which has never been seen in an image of 9-11

Chris those are not bombs.

I've never commented on bombs. Know almost nothing of them.

The small photo posted " GOLDFISH " The footbridge seems to stop in the middle of that column

Yes, and the windows are not the right dimension for the angle being viewed. See the video at 16 seconds there is no part with square windows

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yJx2Iu_yBE

http://breakfornews.com/bfn4/wtcbasementwestfrontwinvs8.jpg
http://breakfornews.com/bfn4/NTlobbyfirecommand-full.jpg

Trying to fake an entire Lobby having it look like the other is a stretch in my opinion. However, especially with video it would be easy to do where as people unfamiliar with the lay out of the building would have considerable difficulty in telling which was which. JMHO

H O'

Video is very difficult because there are 29 frames per second that have to be faked and each one is a little different. I can prove with math that the video screen shot below is the correct appearance of the bridge windows.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8682/footbridgewtc1nwcorfs8.png (http://www.imagehosting.com/)

Now look at gams 1st image. See the bridge window frames bleeding through.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/photoshoppedwtc2lobby.jpg

I'm not sure where this image is taken from, gam never locates such things because gam prefers to operate in controlled confusion. I will use it in the location gam intended, but there it shows that only one window that can have an angle that appears as does the goldfish image. Do we have enough expertise here to recognize these fundaments?

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff290/gamolon/footbridgessquarewindows.jpg

Once this is discovered, logically ALL DISCUSSION about elevators should end because it is a diversion from facts the supporters of the official story structure have no evidence and cannot prove the steel core. AND the supporters of the official structure have to fake their evidence! to have an argument

Why would truth seekers entertain a liars arena?

christophera

22-12-2008, 05:03 AM

Can we believe Judy Wood can actually be making the assertions she make based on the evidence she's assembled. Over half of it won't stand a minutes scrutiny.

http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/DEW/StarWarsBeam5.html

Shes doesn't appear to know where the engine is in delivery vans and big city fire engines and can't relate to aluminum roofs that melt at low temps. This is MISLEADING that she applies her engineering background to legitimize her proposals.

The page title is, "StarWarsBeam5." but there is no technical or scientific data on a Star Wars Beam.

Hyperbole!

christophera

25-12-2008, 07:54 PM

The post 9-11 psyops on America is certainly the largest series of deceptions ever concieved of on the planet. This article touches on a good bit of it and describes aspects of the social strcutrue that the psyops is intended to work in.

http://911review.com/disinfo/index.html

This does not take into account the fanatical behaviors which are unable to explain human nature as related to the concept of "no planes" hitting the towers.

Specifically the fact that IF the perps used no planes, WHY did they create the backwards, impact fall sequence?

And, ......... they had to have created it IF one believes in "no planes". Because "no planes" requires remote control. Remote control exists to create options.

Why did the perps opt to make people think that WTC 1 was first hit by a plane then demo WTC 2 first? This is absolutely backwards particulary considering the damage from the different (percieved) impacts.

NPT'ists also have a hard time understanding why remotes have to be a part of the "no plane" theory scenario. I find this very bizarre considering they all believe themselves to be quite informed on technology.

trondh

25-12-2008, 08:53 PM

http://911review.com/disinfo/index.html

Jim Hiffman is a "disinfo agent"/Jew too. He talks about Trojan horses, so that he will not be suspected. Eric Hufschmid says that the rest of the truth movement mix truth with lies. But Eric Hufschmid does the same...

Nonsense as a Weapon
An effective tool for reinforcing the loony conspiricism meme is the introduction of theories that that have no basis in evidence, such as the idea that no planes hit the towers. The association of these ideas with the careful research of investigators in the 9/11 Truth Movement stands to set back the cause of awakening the larger public to the facts of the attack.

A series of websites have promoting more or less obvious hoaxes since the attack. Examples are 911Review.org (See 9/11 Review REVIEWED), and Physics911.net. Both adopted as their centerpiece the idea that no jetliner crashed at the Pentagon -- an idea that may be single most elaborate and well-orchestrated hoax used to undermine the credibility of the 9-11 Truth Movement.
http://911review.com/disinfo/index.html

Remote controlled planes crashed into the WTCs. No planes crashed into The Pentagon. Some Jews in the truth movement say no plane hit WTC. Some Jews say a plane hit the Pentagon.

They obviously want to confuse.

http://home.chello.no/trondh/911/hole2_ns.jpg

http://home.chello.no/trondh/911/pentagon_ovenifra_liten_ns.jpg http://home.chello.no/trondh/911/hull_i_ring_c3_liten_ns.jpg

These damages were not caused by a plane.

http://home.chello.no/liberal/f4_1.jpg http://home.chello.no/liberal/f4_2.jpg http://home.chello.no/liberal/f4_3.jpg

Jim Hoffman uses this crashtest to show why there were no debris.

This wall cannot be compared to the Pentagon wall, and it doesn't explain the hole in ring C.

WhatReallyHappened.com (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ppfinal.html):
Right now, government shills are working hard to trick web sites into running the claim that a passenger jet did not really hit the Pentagon. This is an old intelligence trick called "Poisoning the well"...

christophera

26-12-2008, 09:20 AM

Jim Hoffman uses this crashtest to show why there were no debris.

Hmmmmm, I agree, not relative to the walls of the 5 thing.

The penetration of the inside wall and general path there indicate something travelling a lot faster than a plane.

Have you heard the reports of a sonic boom within 0.5 miles of the 5 thing seconds before the explosion?

trondh

26-12-2008, 04:16 PM

Have you heard the reports of a sonic boom within 0.5 miles of the 5 thing seconds before the explosion?

Nope.

But as you can see, the truth movement is covering up the crimes of Jewish Larry Silverstein, pretending they're exposing 9/11. Obviously a big conspiracy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZVS5cYSZKQ

Jewish Loose Change on FOX40 News (http://video.yahoo.com/watch/4177004/11242380)

They show overwhelming evidence that the buildings were brought down with explosives. The reporters are smiling like it was a comedy show.

Fox promote WhatReallyHappened.com.

...We've crashed not one, but TWO webservers!...

...So why all the attention? We can only assume it involves the following three factors: One: We're a FOX affiliate reporting on a topic many news consumers feel's often suppressed by our national counterpart...

...But what really got the pop boiling was the third factor: Several sites that linked our story around the country discovered that a day after we broadcasted the 9/11-report, it disappeared from the FOX 40 website. Those who applauded our report then assumed that the government or a higher ops at the FOX network, or some other dark force (laughter) had killed the story as part of a conspiracy to suppress the truth.

But What Really Happened was that the traffic was so intense that our webadministrator had to move the story on to a server that could handle all the hits. And at this moment, all links are working.

So that's What Really Happened -
despite deep suspicions to the contrary...

Doug Kolk - FOX40 News - 1st at 10

Two servers almost exploded and only one link got hurt? The chiefs at FOX can be compared with some dark forces?

christophera

26-12-2008, 07:36 PM

Jim Hiffman is a "disinfo agent"/Jew too. He talks about Trojan horses, so that he will not be suspected. Eric Hufschmid says that the rest of the truth movement mix truth with lies. But Eric Hufschmid does the same...

I seriously wonder why wtc7.net makes the fake plans from silverstein available and presents them as if they were gospel when I've been trying to get Gage, Fetzer, Wood, and Jones to comment on the hard evidence of a concrete core for years.

wtc7.net presents scans of blueprints that have these anomalies on 20% of them in the revision tables which I believe were added with photoshop techniques after the plans were scanned in order to make them appear as final drawings. The anomalies are impossible any other way. I've scanned lots of pencil drawings in my line of work and NEVER has anything like this been generated.

http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/A-A-159.revtab.jpg

christophera

25-01-2009, 08:47 PM

Right, that's the whole idea. IF there were no planes, you see how well it works for them due to that being the dominant mindset? People laughed in Pteolmy's face when he said the earth wasn't flat.

They of course would have to be incapable of understanding his evidence, which he had, and it was good evidence.

It's difficult to continuously realize that ALL of your belief patterns are simply inherited from others,

Empirical evidence works consistently and it is the only basis we have for knowing anything. Rather that accepting the entire generalization you make as absolute, to re-test the empirical and see what works and how it works is to avoid idiocy. Or, beliefs controlling perceptions.

who are largely idiots due to inherited belief patterns. When I throw all that crap out and think for myself, I can't possibly see a plane going in there like that. I can however see a hologram on top of a missile in the doctored footage. Feel free to laugh in my face, I might be wrong.

Physics shows exactly how an aluminum plane can break the perimeter columns and enter the building. The only laughter will be if you continue to utilize video you have admitted is "doctored". This thread has the facts, and a very simple physics demonstration that is absolute.

The demonsration applies to both. The demonstration in the context you see is like this,

http://drjudywood.com/articles/erin/spics/Straw-BlowThroughTree.jpg

the straw blown through the tree. The demonstration is mass/speed reversed. Where the inertia of the concentrated paper cup mass gained from speed goes through the block of wood.

The official story of collapse is like the demonstration, except the block of wood is gone afterwards making it an invalid analogy.

matrix911

26-01-2009, 01:27 AM

No, we have no more truth now than we did 5 years ago.

Do you realize that there is a very good chance that the infiltrating perps never planned to permanently get away with 9-11 and only planned to use it to create war with mass profits, ................ then, ................. the event they know about that we don't know about HAPPENS, and we are WAY too busy trying to survive to bother with getting the truth?

You may die with a lie.

THATS EXACTLY WHATS GOING TO HAPPEN.

SAD isn't it

matrix911

26-01-2009, 01:34 AM

So how do you propose we get a"Feasable explanation" when there's no solid evidence and every sub group of 9/11 researchers have conflicting theories .

I disagree.

I think there's plenty of SOLID EVIDENCE.

but then i guess it depends on what the definition of SOLID is right? or your definition of it.

that may be the million dollar or pounds question eh that we might want to debate more.

I submit there's SOLID evidence and PROOF beyond a shadow of a doubt proving the REAL NPT etc.

just because the media or MOST people don't accept it, doesn't disprove it... to me it means they either haven't done enough research, aren't using common sense, or are part of the coverup.

matrix911

26-01-2009, 01:48 AM

It is wierd how the concrete got pulverised, but then I guess we dont know what kind of explosives were used. Also some say that the twin towers were actually built for this very purpose, although that sounds a bit over the top, but then otherwise they must have used their scalarwave weapons or something like that to accomplish it instead. I would think they give that kind of effect.

IMO,,, thermate, nano hydrogen nukes, dew were all apart of the demol.

christophera

27-01-2009, 07:18 PM

http://www.ae911truth.org/info/7

very interesting thread

The link above shows that some credible research into 9/11. No aliens or the like, just the evidence. More and more people are asking for a new independant enquiry.

Patrish x

The problem is that the research uses the wrong structure. And the researcher refuses to provide evidence from 9-11 supporting their uses of that structure. AND, the reseracher will not comment on the structure that is seen on 9-11, while the one they are using is never seen.

Gage is misleading the world and has no detailed or feasible theory for 5 unique aspects. This site does.

free fall
total pulverization
superfine, heated particulate
smooth, square cut column ends x the 1,000's
heavy steel assemblies heaved hundreds of feet (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11fivephenomena.html)

christophera

11-02-2009, 08:51 AM

IMO,,, thermate, nano hydrogen nukes, dew were all apart of the demol.

Ya, thermite in the basement, perhaps a tiny bit on one floor of WTC 2, but everything else is a deception and I'll prove it.

The nuke has no evidence to support it and the evidence showing explosions shows a series of delayed detonations, RULING OUT a nuke.

not a nuke (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5860825099435530591&q=5860825099435530591&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)

and DEW melts things, sears minerals with a blast of coherent light energy.

What we see are conventional explosives (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html) used with very advanced digital delays using the buildings redundant telephone system for distribution. The explosives were poured into the corrugations of the floors as one circuit, with cutting charges on the interior box columns every 3 floors for one circuit. Then the core was separate and contained the main distribution for the floor detonations. The super strong concrete core walls protected its own detonation system and that of the floors below, until the delay system signaled initiation.

Every 75 ms a floor detonates, every 3 floors 40 feet of core, on down. The core aggregates accelerating to about 10K fps shredding the entire contents, mixing it and blowing outwards through the dismembered, falling floor debris and heavy steel structure of 40 foot long interior box columns and floor beams.

matrix911

12-02-2009, 08:04 PM

Ya, thermite in the basement, perhaps a tiny bit on one floor of WTC 2, but everything else is a deception and I'll prove it.

how much or little will never be known for sure.

but thermite and thermate WAS used.

The nuke has no evidence to support it and the evidence showing explosions shows a series of delayed detonations, RULING OUT a nuke.

BULLSHIT it has NO evidence to support.

THERE *IS* EVIDENCE.

and theres a difference between FISION and FUSION nukes.

or didn't you know that?

i submit the debate and science on nano nuke tech is in its INFANCY.

and i'm callin it right now that in the near future, as science advances or reveals technology being used now WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT, the theories
and material people such as JUDY WOOD are researching and exposing will be more widely accepted, understood and embraced.

christophera

13-02-2009, 03:24 AM

BULLSHIT it has NO evidence to support.

THERE *IS* EVIDENCE.

and theres a difference between FISION and FUSION nukes.

or didn't you know that?

The fact that neither can be delayed means that this video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5860825099435530591&q=5860825099435530591&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0) debunks the possibility of a nuke because it clearly shows dozens of delayed detonations both vertically and horizontally on the towers face.

comawhite015

13-02-2009, 03:27 AM

I think this thread answers the original question on this topic quite.. nicely..

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53536

christophera

13-02-2009, 08:44 AM

I think this thread answers the original question on this topic quite.. nicely..

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53536

Seems off topic completely.

matrix911

13-02-2009, 08:33 PM

your "video" and whatever ridiculous argument about "delays" you're trying to assert, debunks and disproves nothing.

sorry.

let me know when you have some actual evidence and a real counter-argument to and addressing the specific evidence and arguments you claim are useless or BS.

The fact that neither can be delayed means that this video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5860825099435530591&q=5860825099435530591&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0) debunks the possibility of a nuke because it clearly shows dozens of delayed detonations both vertically and horizontally on the towers face.

christophera

13-02-2009, 09:00 PM

your "video" and whatever ridiculous argument about "delays" you're trying to assert, debunks and disproves nothing.

And your text does nothing at all, you are not even using it to reason. Mental wimp you are.

Author a web site with your evidence and reason. Produce a video with it. Or, link to some with evidence.

TEXT DOES NOT MAKE THE GRADE (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html)

matrix911

14-02-2009, 05:55 AM

And your text does nothing at all, you are not even using it to reason. Mental wimp you are.

This issue has nothing to do with REASON if you can't BACK UP WHAT YOU CLAIM WITH FACTS AND LINE BY LINE ARGUMENTS PROVING OR DISPROVING WHAT YOU ASSERT.

Stop projecting your insecurities and failure to prove what you claim with personal attacks intended to cover up your inability to PROVE what you claim.

you're not fooling anyone.

I've put forth a very reasonable, logical and intelligent argument which also challenges you to show me EXACTLY HOW AND WHERE what i've said is false or what you claim is true.

you've so far failed miserably.

Author a web site with your evidence and reason. Produce a video with it. Or, link to some with evidence.

Just because someone produces a video or puts up a website doesn't mean whats they say is true or proves or disproves anything.

FACTS and SUPPORTING EVIDENCE does.

so far i've seen no factually based counter-argument from you showing exactly how and where what you claim is true and how and where what you claim is false, is false.

TEXT DOES NOT MAKE THE GRADE (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html)

Nor does YELLING.

christophera

14-02-2009, 05:59 AM

Nor does YELLING.

Well if you insist over and over in tryingto make a point without evidence and reason, and I can't ban you, perhaps yelling might work.

christophera

14-02-2009, 06:02 AM

This issue has nothing to do with REASON if you can't BACK UP WHAT YOU CLAIM WITH FACTS AND LINE BY LINE ARGUMENTS PROVING OR DISPROVING WHAT YOU ASSERT.

As I've said, I have a web site that does all of that. I'm not here to debunk the endless garbage theories the 9-11 psyops generate. That's all been done. These quacks explain NOTHING. They cannot even establish that the technology they attempt to impliment in explanation exists developed to the degree needed. Asserting "secrecy" is not a proof of a technological development. You find a way to prove it exists developed to that level then bring it here for our scrutiny.

Feasible explanations are what we need. Explanations based in known science.

Just because someone produces a video or puts up a website doesn't mean whats they say is true or proves or disproves anything.

Correct, but your failure to comment intelligently establishes your lack of credibility. j. woods has a website, she never shows that DEW is developed to a degree or deploybale to cause what happened on 9-11.

I assert high explosives did the work and that they were installed during construction and done behind a veil of cold war secrecy. We had a president who talked about and warned of secrecy once, perhaps you recall.

stannrodd

14-02-2009, 07:06 AM

Well if you insist over and over in tryingto make a point without evidence and reason, and I can't ban you, perhaps yelling might work.

Perhaps you could start your own forum then you could ban people.

I gifted you a forum which I configured for you Chris, but you never used it .. it simply got closed down because there was no interest in your CONCRETE CORE Theory. REMEMBER !!

I think we got three members :D

You could come to my forums if you like .. but unfortunately I already banned your IP address .. Tough isn't it.

Here's a good place to get a free forum.

http://www.freeforums.org/

I was looking for one for someone else .. about cats and stuff !!

You prefer to infest other folks forums though don't you, rather than get you message across using your own efforts.

Discuss, debate .. but hey if we want a preacher there are plenty of empty churches to go to. Sadly most of them just deal in funerals and weddings for those with a religious guilt trip.

Stann:)

comawhite015

14-02-2009, 07:44 AM

Seems off topic completely.

Not really, considering how many people on that thread were fucking gullible enough to believe that a joke website was legitimate.

I'd say a lot of people are *very easily* decieved and misled because they're so willing to believe absolutely anything that they'll even get sucked in by satire and blatant farce.

christophera

14-02-2009, 08:09 AM

I'd say a lot of people are *very easily* decieved and misled because they're so willing to believe absolutely anything that they'll even get sucked in by satire and blatant farce.

Unfortunately, stans continued enablement here evidences such an assertion.

matrix911

15-02-2009, 12:11 AM

As I've said, I have a web site that does all of that. I'm not here to debunk the endless garbage theories the 9-11 psyops generate. That's all been done. These quacks explain NOTHING. They cannot even establish that the technology they attempt to impliment in explanation exists developed to the degree needed. Asserting "secrecy" is not a proof of a technological development. You find a way to prove it exists developed to that level then bring it here for our scrutiny.

Feasible explanations are what we need. Explanations based in known science.

there's much evidence and explanations based in known science.

the question is to WHAT DEGREE of advancement is it... and if you think such powerful tech mostly like DEVELOPED by the MILITARY would be revealved and they wouldn't have a reason to HIDE it, then you're more naive than i thought.

Correct, but your failure to comment intelligently establishes your lack of credibility. j. woods has a website, she never shows that DEW is developed to a degree or deploybale to cause what happened on 9-11.

she doesn't have to...

advanced nuke tech and DE are 2 plausible possibilities.

but then i still disagree with your claim implying evidence of DE tech doesn't exist.

If the TECH EXISTS, whether its known to be deployable or at what stage its been developed, is all that matters.

I assert high explosives did the work and that they were installed during construction and done behind a veil of cold war secrecy. We had a president who talked about and warned of secrecy once, perhaps you recall.

and I say that THEORY is remote at best.

The theory of nano nuke and dew tech has far more evidence to support it than does your theory.

comawhite015

15-02-2009, 01:41 AM

TEXT DOES NOT MAKE THE GRADE (http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html)

http://www.352media.com/rantingandraving/CMFiles/Images/CapsLock.jpg

christophera

15-02-2009, 01:50 AM

there's much evidence and explanations based in known science.

Well, post them. As the post above reinforces, text does not provide proof.

Links please.

christophera

15-02-2009, 01:53 AM

uneeded image

I do not use capslock at all. Every now and then, after many tries to get evidence, reasoning and other proof, and it is NEVER produced, I resort to capitals.

It might prevent the trend here of inadvertantly (at the least) supporting secret mass murder and the demise of the US Constitution.

The fact is that the NPT, DEW believers cannot substanciate any of their assertions nor can they define how their information can be used to compel official action and get more truth.

stannrodd

15-02-2009, 06:40 AM

It might prevent the trend here of inadvertantly (at the least) supporting secret mass murder and the demise of the US Constitution.

Seems like you have an unhealthy obsession with blaming others for the above...

Your theory implies you had pre 9/11 knowledge of the tragic day .. and did nothing = no think.

Stann

christophera

15-02-2009, 06:49 AM

I do not use capslock at all. Every now and then, after many tries to get evidence, reasoning and other proof, and it is NEVER produced, I resort to capitals.

It might prevent the trend here of inadvertantly (at the least) supporting secret mass murder and the demise of the US Constitution.

The fact is that the NPT, DEW believers cannot substanciate any of their assertions nor can they define how their information can be used to compel official action and get more truth.

Seems like you have an unhealthy obsession with blaming others for the above...

Your theory implies you had pre 9/11 knowledge of the tragic day .. and did nothing = no think.

Stann

Blaming them for your evil work? I think not, some are accomplices and others are their own agents misleading truthseekers that cannot imagine that one mans information could be correct and deserve all this gatekeeping, psyops disinfo. So those truthseekers go-with-the-flow, as social comfort dictates.

You would have to use a great deal more than text to assert that I knew before 9-11 what was going to happen. If that was the case I would have been posting about the buil to demolish scenario immediately after 9-11. As it was it took me almost a year and a half to organize my memories and develop the beginning of a comprehensive scenario.

I did know, for completely separate reasons from any reason I know now about the towers concrete core and built to demolish aspects, that severe terrorism was going to take place, and I knew that mind control was going to play a part in the secrecy that it would be done with.

I also knew that the terrorism would not be real but would be used to justify endless war that America could not stop conducting.

stannrodd

15-02-2009, 06:56 AM

You would have to use a great deal more than text to assert that I knew before 9-11 what was going to happen.

Would you care to elaborate ??

Sounds like I'm on the right track !!

The written word is an historical record or haven't you ever read a book !! Text is something my son does on his mobile phone.

Categorizing the written word of others as being meaningless text is just your way of avoiding what is being "spoken" via a written word forum.

Do you belong to a religious group Chris?
What is my evil work ?

Stann

secondsun

15-02-2009, 07:00 AM

Blaming them for your evil work?

...dont think Chris would recognise Evil even if Baphomet came and stuck a great big fork up his arse!... but then!... he could just go and look in the mirror!

christophera

15-02-2009, 07:55 AM

...dont think Chris would recognise Evil even if Baphomet came and stuck a great big fork up his arse!... but then!... he could just go and look in the mirror!

You might metaphorically be doing that as one of the minions of dark unknowing. Ad hominums abound, but alas, no reason, no evidence, no intent to see civilized lawful nations.

secondsun

15-02-2009, 08:02 AM

....no intent to see civilized lawful nations.

...i would love to see `civilized lawful nations`.... but seeing as this world is run by psychotic morally insane individuals... that is highly unlikely!

...as one of the minions of dark unknowing

...no!... your wrong yet again!... to see darkness just look into your own eyes!

christophera

15-02-2009, 08:19 AM

What is my evil work ?

Stann

Bwahhhhhhhaaaa. You cannot be serious. You support that the means of mass murder remain secret. Dark shit.

christophera

15-02-2009, 08:22 AM

...i would love to see `civilized lawful nations`.... but seeing as this world is run by psychotic morally insane individuals... that is highly unlikely!

Of course you would believe that, it helps to justify your own behavior.

...no!... your wrong yet again!... to see darkness just look into your own eyes!

How about you look into them and realize you are,

http://breakfornews.com/bfn1/chrisbrown1.jpg

EXPOSED by reason and evidence and your own behaviors.

stannrodd

15-02-2009, 08:27 AM

Got anything useful to say ??

Stann

comawhite015

15-02-2009, 08:34 AM

Lol. What a mug.

christophera

15-02-2009, 08:37 AM

Lol. What a mug.

Lookin right at you and wondering WHY you haven't said if this looks like concrete, or steel core columns.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/southcorestands.gif

comawhite015

15-02-2009, 08:39 AM

Because I am an evil disinformation agent that is bent on misinforming the public and condoning mass murder.

Duh.

Least I'm pretty.

christophera

15-02-2009, 08:40 AM

Because I am an evil disinformation agent that is bent on misinforming the public and condoning mass murder.

Duh.

Least I'm pretty.

Man, you cannot get anything straight. You are working to protect the secret means of mass murder. Dammed evil act.

stannrodd

15-02-2009, 08:40 AM

Bwahhhhhhhaaaa. You cannot be serious. You support that the means of mass murder reamin secret. Dark shit.

Again .. more abuse from this member..

and here again ..

#227

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=806713#post806713

The member is spamming the board now with total disrespect as his objective.. ??

Cheers

Stann

comawhite015

15-02-2009, 08:41 AM

Man, you cannot get anything straight. You are working to protect the secret means of mass murder. Dammed evil act.

yeah, that's it.

stannrodd

15-02-2009, 08:43 AM

Man, you cannot get anything straight. You are working to protect the secret means of mass murder. Dammed evil act.

???????????

Is the admin going to give this member a warning in public ?? Just curious !

Stann

christophera

11-03-2009, 06:35 AM

???????????

Is the admin going to give this member a warning in public ?? Just curious !

Stann

But I can explain how all those people were ground into little pieces, and you really don't like the independantly verified fact that the core was a steel reinforced cast concrete tube, and, will do or say about anything to interfere, impede and compromise my efforts to use evidence and reason as if you were helping to keep a secret. When, you have no evidence to support your assertions, only misrepresentations and manipulative frauds.

Please stan, give the next generation a chance at human and civil rights, freedom and happiness, support justice and reason.

stannrodd

11-03-2009, 06:45 AM

Don't plead with me Chris,

How about you front up with the FACT that your concrete core theory is just a load of snake droppings.

You are allowed to make mistakes you know.

You are allowed to admit that you were wrong.

You are allowed to progress your comment ..

.. give the next generation a chance at human and civil rights, freedom and happiness, support justice and reason.

But don't do it with what is clearly BS.

All I have ever done is counter what you say with facts.

That is not a bad thing .. unless you are pushing bullshite.

I am your worst enemy especially with respect to the towers. There is more to come if you want .. there was no concrete core and you know it.

There was no PBS documentally as you assert.

Stann

christophera

11-03-2009, 11:56 PM

Don't plead with me Chris,

How about you front up with the FACT that your concrete core theory is just a load of snake droppings.

Stann

You do not use facts. Your post has none, but substanciates my assertion of the fact you want to waste peoples time.

Facts regarding the concrete core are here for those that have interest in using them.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

tannah

12-03-2009, 02:50 AM

You do not use facts. Your post has none, but substanciates my assertion of the fact you want to waste peoples time.

Facts regarding the concrete core are here for those that have interest in using them.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

You need to produce this documentary. Do you have a page anywhere where you describe the whole experience? Where you viewed it, describing the contents of it as much as possible. Was it shown internationally? Only in one specific area? Were the architects interviewed? Anyone alive nowadays that would know of this documentary?

christophera

12-03-2009, 11:44 PM

You need to produce this documentary. Do you have a page anywhere where you describe the whole experience? Where you viewed it, describing the contents of it as much as possible. Was it shown internationally? Only in one specific area? Were the architects interviewed? Anyone alive nowadays that would know of this documentary?

No, I remember the basic sequence of presentation of the documentary over 2 hours, but an exact sequence wouldn't be accurate. generally the first 30 minutes was about the WTC concept, Rockefeller, Robertson's concept, the preliminary plans (silversteins) to Yamasaki, Yamasaki refusing to certify steel core columns as safe and the doc referred to the Tacoma narrows bridge collapse and oscillation in the wind. Yamasaki stating he would only certify a tubular, steel reinforced concrete core, the developers objections to the loss of floor space in the lobby to the thick wall required. Robertson's team determining that high tensile steel rebar made the wall so much stronger that Yamasakis calculations based on the new steel provided an acceptable lobby and mezzanine, then the development of Yamasakis concrete core plan.

The doc shifted to the site prep in the middle of that I think, for a minute or 2, to show that the developers were counting on being able to go forward.

It then shifted to the foundations for the interior box columns surrounding the core, the digging of the core foundations, all quite quickly with the narration was going to avoid a lengthy focus at that time of what was a relatively long period of time on the ground in order to get through the beginning of the concrete core with a feeling of continuity.

From that point on it was rapid fire back and forth between the concrete and the steel and probably couldn't place but one or 2 images in the remaining 1 hour.
I do remember somebody posting a link to the port authority video called "Building the World Trade center" produced in 1983 with an 18 minute length and that reminding me as the floor panels drifted through space to the music, that the producers had made a last minute note to add some information that came from their original FOIA's on the PA.
They had found the name of a small engineering contractor in New Jersey and called them to ask about the files on WTC 1. The engineering company still had them and a full copy was obtained. In that the documentary justified its grant because it was dedicated to explaining the huge cost of the towers to the public when it had actually never been done officially.

They had found a set of six hardened steel plates that were to be installed in the floors surrounding the interior box columns surrounding the concrete core, to be cast into he floors concrete. The plates were harder than the tempered steel box columns, which was a mystery to their construction experts, with a 0.020" inch tolerance in clearance around the hand fabricated tempered steel box column. No weld between the plates and the column was shown.

When the producers asked about the plates the PA rep got upset and asked where they had gotten the information. The producers explained and the PA answered with "When we let that contract out it was confidential and we still consider it confidential". The producers asked "Why". The PA never answered.

Study and experience with high explosives have me theorizing that those plates were custom cutting charges,

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html#anchor1233383

ON EDIT:The doc mentioned the 18 minute PA piece from 1983 and showed some contempt for it as it was inaccurate referring to "core columns", Several times in the doc in emntioned the confusion that came from Robertsons team concerning the interior box columns which they often referred to as "core columns". It was understood that the team had worked on the preliminary plans and spent s much time drawing "core columns" for core floor plans that the term was stuck in their head. The "Engineering and Construction of the Twin Towers was very redundant with its separation from the PA 18 minute piece and the tendancy on the WTC site by some engineer to refer to "core columns".

stannrodd

13-03-2009, 03:35 AM

Chris,

This is simply TEXT written by you. It doesn't wash as any form of substantiated evidence.

If your memory is so damn good ..

Who were the producers of the doco .. who were the presenters .. who was interviewed.

When was the documentary made, was it in colour or black and white, was it video taped or 16mm or 35 mm film. Did it have an optical sound track or a magnetic one ??

Where is evidence that it was broadcast .. show us a TV guide with it scheduled .. your memory, which is so excellent at remembering anything about the alleged film itself, seems incapable of remembering the above questions .. let alone providing any answers at all.

I guess the black cloak brigade got a hold of all the archived TV guides and everything else about this doco .. and destroyed them.

They must have gone house to house, searched everyone's car ports, sheds, cupboards .. everywhere on the whole ferking planet to rid the world of this "damning" documentary.

Yes Chris they must have been very meticulous, because there is absolutely nil evidence of the thing ever existing.

You have stated in the past that contact was made with a library where they "had" a copy .. which conveniently disappeared. I do believe that the librarian was a woman.

Why won't you tell us which library Chris ?? I have asked for it many times, but you say you can't for fear that this alleged librarian might be placing herself in danger .. ?? What sort of danger Chris ?

You also say that your colleague in crime Ron Larson had almost got a copy but it was intercepted three times in transit ..

Who sent it Chris ? .. and how do you know it was intercepted. Did you see that happen ?? What format was the doco in .. was it a VHS or a Betamax or film ??

Where's the delivery docket Chris? Three of them .. shall I ask Ron Larson at Liberty Calling folks.. ?

But the most damning thing about your lie Chris is that your ferking core doesn't even fit in the tower and allow the core facilities which WERE there to exist .. including 99 elevators in each tower.

This has been proven absolutely by Gamolon who did the excellent hard work to expose you.

Then of course there is the mountain of historical photos of the construction of these two massive towers .. in real books in real libraries all around the globe. I guess your imaginary black cloak crowd got into every collection around the world in schools and universities, invaded my home and did over my books when I wasn't looking.

How about you answer some of the above question honestly.

Have good day Chris.

Stann

christophera

13-03-2009, 08:02 PM

Chris,
This is simply TEXT written by you. It doesn't wash as any form of substantiated evidence.

There is independantly verified evidence on my web site.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11scenario.html

In large quantities.

If your memory is so damn good ..

Who were the producers of the doco .. who were the presenters .. who was interviewed.

Stann

I pay no attention to those aspects of any production. I'm into the substance a producer conveys, not the producer. Since they were independant, actually making a documentary the builder/developers did not want made and they had to use the FOIA to get information, I don't think they interviewed anyone on camera. They used the many images and feet of 16mm film along with notes from personal interviews to assemble the documentary.

Since you cannot provide an image of the supposed steel core columns on 9-11, your position has no substance whatsoever.

I am explaining the means of mass murder with completely feasible and well evidenced means. Are you trying to keep that secret?

dave52

14-03-2009, 02:23 AM

Since you cannot provide an image of the supposed steel core columns on 9-11, your position has no substance whatsoever.

Er... since you cannot provide a copy of your fabled documentary...

stannrodd

14-03-2009, 02:35 AM

There is independantly verified evidence on my web site.
In large quantities.

No there isn't. It's full of speculation, conjecture and inaccurate representations of what other people have said.

I pay no attention to those aspects of any production. I'm into the substance a producer conveys, not the producer. Since they were independant, actually making a documentary the builder/developers did not want made and they had to use the FOIA to get information, I don't think they interviewed anyone on camera. They used the many images and feet of 16mm film along with notes from personal interviews to assemble the documentary.

There is no proof of your documentary.

Since you cannot provide an image of the supposed steel core columns on 9-11, your position has no substance whatsoever.

Your claim is that I have to produce an image of the steel core columns on 9-11 in order to disprove your theory. Correct ?

This claim in itself shows that your theory is false .. because it is (in your own words) potentially disprovable. However the burden of proof is yours .. to prove .. not mine to disprove. To date you have proven nothing except that you are a fraudster.

I am explaining the means of mass murder with completely feasible and well evidenced means. Are you trying to keep that secret?

You are suggesting again, by asking the question in bold above that I am somehow involved in keeping the means of mass murder secret.

You are not explaining anything and there is nothing well evidenced or feasible about your BS.

Stann

tannah

14-03-2009, 09:16 AM

Your claim is that I have to produce an image of the steel core columns on 9-11 in order to disprove your theory. Correct ?

Regardless of Chris's theory, can you provide images of the steel core columns on 9/11?

christophera

14-03-2009, 09:06 PM

Er... since you cannot provide a copy of your fabled documentary...

As if you've proven anything and now it is my turn.

You have no evidence of anything you assert and if you did it would be irrelevant to the cause of death of 3,000 people.

I prove the documentary exists with my use of evidence, identifying structural elements of 9-11 images with complete consistency.

How else could I do that?

If I'm not mistaken, there is a good deal more independently verifiable evidence showing a concrete core than there is steel core columns of the official story. Let us compare.

IMAGES:
WTC 2 core at 1/2 height (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/southcorestands.gif)
WTC 2 portion of core top falling onto WTC 3 (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc2coreonto3.jpg)
WTC 1 west wall next to the spire (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc1spirecorewall.jpg)
WTC 1 video showing massive piece of concrete wall falling into the core area. (http://i716.photobucket.com/albums/ww168/S_N_A_F_U/core_animation_75.gi)
WTC 1 ground zero massive core base wall, (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/shearspirewall.jpg)
core wall at its base (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/core.corner.arrow.col.jpg) f(silverstein plans shown inaccurate) (http://algoxy.com/psych/whatis9-11Disinfo_fakeplan.html)
WTC 1, 3" rebar on 4' centers. (http://home.comcast.net/~jeffrey.king2/spire_dust-3.jpg)

REFERENCED AUTHORITY:
Robertson Newsweek article (not reasonable to suggest that when 3,000 are murdered that Newsweek would make sure the information was good) (http://web.archive.org/web/20040807085840/http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3069641/)

August Domel, Ph.d SE. PE ground zero safety report. (He saw FEMA plans 2 weeks after 9-11 at ground zero) (http://www.ncsea.com/downloads/wtcseerp.pdf)

Oxford encyclopedia of Technology and Innovation, published in 1992. (http://algoxy.com/psych/images/oxfordarchcore.jpg)

Bazants revised analysis mentions concrete core walls.

Independent verifications abound supporting the concrete core. No FEMA source, no government source.

Since no images exist of the steel core columns in the core area on 9-11, the independant evidence aspect is absent from the official story. Evidence shows the steel in the core as being inadequately connected and founded to be core columns explaining the empty core on 9-11. All authorities go back to FEMA or NISTS reference to FEMA.

It cannot be reasonably assumed that FEMA provides facts.

Are you trying to cover for FEMA dave? Helping them to conceal the means of mass muder?

stannrodd

14-03-2009, 10:57 PM

Regardless of Chris's theory, can you provide images of the steel core columns on 9/11?

Yes. So can you.

So can anyone who wants to.

Chris just doesn't accept the evidence is real because he is delusional.. Try it !!

Stann

christophera

15-03-2009, 08:30 AM

Yes. So can you.

So can anyone who wants to.

Chris just doesn't accept the evidence is real because he is delusional.. Try it !!

Stann

The best and closest image of elevator guide rail support steel shows they have butt plates connecting them,

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/elev_guide.rail.supp.jpg

no lateral strength and no footting leaves an empty core on demo, with a concrete wall standing to the right and the spire, out side the core wall right of it.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc1spirecorewall.jpg

board software trashed my post/ I'm outta here.

stannrodd

15-03-2009, 09:23 AM

Chris,

You know what you are doing ..

You must have a reason .. when it's so obviously a fantasy story of a doco and a concrete core.

Why are you doing it. .. You already admit the doco is BS. You admit your theory is not fact by saying it can be disproved with certain pictures..

C'mon Chris

It's crunch time ..

Do it..

Tell us Chris ..

It was all BS right..

Stann ??