Chemtrails and why I have joined the non-believers

[bardofely]

You may know that I was for years a chemtrail believer and a person who was doing what I could to raise awareness on the subject, well the situation has recently changed and I no longer believe that the persistent trails we see or the white fake cloud cover is made up of harmful chemicals and metals. I now believe it is made up of harmless ice crystals, which is what the authorities had said all along is what is in a contrail!

The reason for my change of thinking I will explain: many of you will have heard of a guy who has been posting as JazzRoc who has been called a "debunker" at YouTube and a lot of other things such as "working for the government," which I know to be rubbish seeing as I personally know him! Anyway, I had had very bad disagreements with him on the subject of chemtrails before and at one stage blocked him at Myspace. He can be very rude and insulting and it pushed my anger button too far! However, we managed to get over that until recently when he waded into my chemtrails Hub Page where a very heated argument took place in public and by email - you can read it here:
http://hubpages.com/_uq6h62db2t97/hub/Are-chemtrails-real-and-contrails-a-con

However, in the course of the argument he asked me two things: 1. didn't I know that ice crystals made moon and sun halos? and 2. didn't I realise that dust or particles cannot form halos and would clog up engines of a plane?

Until that point in time I had connected sun halos with chemtrails and fake cloud made by them BUT I hadn't realised that what was making the halos by day was obviously the same as what does so by night around the moon! And yet I had known that ice was the reason for moon halos, which I had seen since a child. This meant that if it was ice in the sun halo then it was ice in fake clouds and the trails! I could see that my belief in chemtrails had blinded me to seeing this logic and I am well aware that beliefs can do this to people - beliefs override logical thought!

Next I knew damned well that dust and particles in the air do not form halos or rainbows (chembows). The island I live in, as does JazzRoc, often is covered in dust clouds from the Sahara known as calimas and whilst the dust lowers visibility vastly so it is like looking through a thick fog it never produces any sort of halo or bow effect.

So with these realisations I had to admit I had been wrong and had stopped myself seeing the logical arguments presented by JazzRoc. This has led me to realise further that worldwide countless people are being worried and scared about nothing more than ice crystals! Fear is generated by nothing more than frozen water that is whitening our skies! In many parts of the world stricken by drought we need that water brought down to Earth!

Why now I couldn't tell you but I do know that persistent contrails are not a new phenomena but have been documented and photographed in the past with the only difference being that they were not called chemtrails then nor was there a movement of people believing in a chemtrail conspiracy!

As for the illnesses people are suffering (and I am one of them having chronic sinus problems) - they can be caused by other factors such as air pollution from industry and traffic and new pollens such as those of GM crops.

The reason the elite do not have to worry about breathing in the poisons from the chemtrails is that there was nothing to worry about - there are no poisons!

With my new way of viewing the matter I recommend JazzRoc's article here:

http://hubpages.com/hub/To-Chemtrailers-Twenty-Things-You-Dont-Know

and the site: http://contrailscience.com/

[21_12_2012]

How come then, if as you say, they are 'harmless ice crystals',
do we see 'campaigns' in the sky, with 2 or more planes hammering the skies
with 'harmless ice crystals', turning round back on themselves
in organised formation, to then spray other parts of the sky.

Also, why some days, is it perfectly clear, not one trail that lasts longer than
a few seconds/a minute. Then a day or 2 later, the sky is hammered again.

They're putting 'harmless ice crystals' all over the sky, and hammering them
on some days and not others, to help droughts ? All over the world ?
In wet countries like the UK ?

I dont buy it. Not for one second.

And what about the black chemtrails / dark ones, which i have seen many of ?
Dark ice ? black ice ? to produce black rain, in a country thats damp all year
round ??

ha..yeh right.

[cruise4]

What you say may be true... but if that's the only thing you were basing Chemtrails on then you shouldn't go by the name 'researcher' at all.

Tell me how 3 identical planes flying at the same height can have one spewing chemtrails and 2 others not, all 3 of which are silver with an orange strip up the trailing edge of the tailplane?

Let alone its been admitted in some quarters.

And another thing. Don't you know particles are used for cloud seeding and it works by water attracting to the particles and turning to ice?

[lookfar]

That basis alone isn't enough evidence against them for me I'm afraid. Ice crystals would NOT last for hours & spread into cloud, just not possible I'm afraid!

There's way more convincing evidence proving chemtrails than disproving them imo. I sure wish this wasn't the case as I'd quite happily change my mind & believe otherwise but unfortunately the dumbing down of society is a very real issue right now on lots of levels:(

Yeah I agree cruise4, they have virtually admitted to it now in some areas.

[bardofely]

What you say may be true... but if that's the only thing you were basing Chemtrails on then you shouldn't go by the name 'researcher' at all.

Tell me how 3 identical planes flying at the same height can have one spewing chemtrails and 2 others not, all 3 of which are silver with an orange strip up the trailing edge of the tailplane?

Let alone its been admitted in some quarters.

The planes only appear at the same height from an observation point down here. There are many layers that are invisible to us at ground level and some are conducive to producing ice crystals and others are not so as a plane goes from one to another it appears a trail is being turned on and off. At least that is how I understand it but I am no scientist. For full explanations I recommend people read contrail science and JazzRoc's blog. These guys are scientists and can explain all if this far better than I can!

The major realisation for me was that sun halos and moon halos are caused by the same thing so that meant that all the trails I was seeing and had seen that created the cloud that the halos formed in could only be made from ice. Multiply that by all the other trails I have seen in photos and videos and we are looking at people worldwide monitoring the same atmospheric phenomena, which unsightly as the trails are, they do not pose any threat. The threat, as I now see it, is the fear they generate and the wasted time and energy the "chemtrail conspiracy" generates! By that I mean it is far more worthwhile for people to be actively protesting fluoride or aspartame or GM crops rather than CTs that are only contrails.

What quarters has it been admitted in?

[bardofely]

That basis alone isn't enough evidence against them for me I'm afraid. Ice crystals would NOT last for hours & spread into cloud, just not possible I'm afraid!

There's way more convincing evidence proving chemtrails than disproving them imo. I sure wish this wasn't the case as I'd quite happily change my mind & believe otherwise but unfortunately the dumbing down of society is a very real issue right now on lots of levels:(

Yeah I agree cruise4, they have virtually admitted to it now in some areas.

Ice crystals can and do persist for many hours and this is why Rosalind Peterson's term "persistent contrails" is accurate for that is indeed, what they are. There has been a vast increase in them and the fake cloud they cause but there has also been a vast increase in the number of planes.

"There's way more convincing evidence proving chemtrails than disproving them imo."

I must have been convinced by it for all the years I was a chemtrail believer so I don't doubt you but I know from personal experience that it becomes a belief system that is reinforced by the opinions of other fellow believers.

I also know my belief made me ignore what JazzRoc was actually saying - I had chosen to side with the CT believers. But that many of them were calling him a "shill" and a "government worker" I knew was rubbish because I know him and they don't. That JazzRoc was calling me a "fool" and "deluded" simply made me defensive and angry but either I am looking for the truth or I am not and I made a point of not reacting with anger but to listen to what he was saying.

[truthseeker1980]

I cant remember when it was posted or by who but Germany have almost admitted it.

I read in the paper a few yeass ago China admit to spraying the skies, to cause it to rain in certail areas, they have since admitted it again and said that they will make the clouds rain before they get to bejing for the olympics, as most the stadiums are open air.

I dont see how your sun halo theory makes any sense.

Why then as cruise4 said and as i have seen on numerous occasions can there be 2 planes in the sky at the same time, one leaving a bonefide contrail and one quite clearly spraying something.

Also why only over the last 10 years or so have contrails suddenly started to last in the sky for hours, when before they would disappear a few feet after the plane.

I used to be facinated when i was a child at contrails so have always noticed them, they now stay in the sky for hours rather than minutes, they now form clouds when they didn't in the eighties. Your sun halo theory just doesn't hold weight in my eyes, not when I can clearly see that the planes are spraying something.

[cruise4]

"The planes only appear at the same height from an observation point down here"

Bogus. I am on a hill, had a telescope and these planes were flying at the same height (low level) and I could see clearly. It's disinfo. Believe whatever you want.

[bardofely]

I cant remember when it was posted or by who but Germany have almost admitted it.

I read in the paper a few yeass ago China admit to spraying the skies, to cause it to rain in certail areas, they have since admitted it again and said that they will make the clouds rain before they get to bejing for the olympics, as most the stadiums are open air.

I dont see how your sun halo theory makes any sense.

Why then as cruise4 said and as i have seen on numerous occasions can there be 2 planes in the sky at the same time, one leaving a bonefide contrail and one quite clearly spraying something.

Also why only over the last 10 years or so have contrails suddenly started to last in the sky for hours, when before they would disappear a few feet after the plane.

I used to be facinated when i was a child at contrails so have always noticed them, they now stay in the sky for hours rather than minutes, they now form clouds when they didn't in the eighties. Your sun halo theory just doesn't hold weight in my eyes, not when I can clearly see that the planes are spraying something.

First of all please see for an explanation of one of the well known German "proof" stories:

http://contrailscience.com/germans-admit-they-used-duppel/

Yes localised weather modification cloud seeding goes on and has done for many years but it is hardly a worldwide operation.

The planes are at different levels of the sky when one is "spraying" and another is not. We are observing from ground level and can only estimate where objects in the sky are and cannot see invisible layers anyway!

The contrails have persisted far more over the last decade because the composition of the sky has changed and there is more water in it. It has happened before that there have been persistent contrails and long before all the current fuss began. Please see: http://contrailscience.com/pre-wwii-contrails/

and http://contrailscience.com/some-more-wwii-contrails/

Doesn't it make sense to you that if a halo can only be caused by ice crystals then all the trails and fake cloud made by them that are in the sky at the same time as such a halo must mean they are made of ice crystals too? Particles of anything else do not form halos or rainbows. Shine sunlight through a dust cloud and you get neither.

[bardofely]

That basis alone isn't enough evidence against them for me I'm afraid. Ice crystals would NOT last for hours & spread into cloud, just not possible I'm afraid!
.

Please see here for the answer to that:
http://contrailscience.com/how-long-do-contrails-last/

[largejack]

I am sorry but nothing like this went on in the 80's or early to mid 90's and I am a sky watcher. I find it odd that a perfectly blue sky now here and abroad can turn from gorgeous blue into hazy white in the space of an hour by so called persistant contrails. But that is what happens these days. Infact I can't remember the last time I seen blue sky.... Oh yes I can early in the morning before the chem planes start spraying.:D

You can go on and on and try to convince me otherwise but I am afraid it wont wash with me:p

[bardofely]

I am sorry but nothing like this went on in the 80's or early to mid 90's and I am a sky watcher. I find it odd that a perfectly blue sky now here and abroad can turn from gorgeous blue into hazy white in the space of an hour by so called persistant contrails. But that is what happens these days. Infact I can't remember the last time I seen blue sky.... Oh yes I can early in the morning before the chem planes start spraying.:D

You can go on and on and try to convince me otherwise but I am afraid it wont wash with me:p

I totally agree with you on the first point because I saw no persistent contrails and cloud from them in the '80s and '90s too but that doesn't mean anything is being sprayed. It can simply mean the sky's composition has changed.

As a non-scientist I have an opinion as to why that should be. I understand that whilst human-made global warming is to a very large degree a scam, solar system warming by increased solar activity is not. I also know that heat makes water evaporate and as steam it rises. So if the planet is being subjected to increased solar radiation (heat and sunlight) then it would be logical to think that water on the Earth and in the sea would evaporate and rise into the sky.

[the_real_jazzroc]

"The planes only appear at the same height from an observation point down here"

Bogus. I am on a hill, had a telescope and these planes were flying at the same height (low level) and I could see clearly. It's disinfo. Believe whatever you want.

Hi cruise4.

The next time you see these planes, please take a picture of them so that we can verify the truth of what you say.

That picture (low-down, one "spraying", one not "spraying") would be be almost UNIQUE, in my experience of debate in such matters.

The last time I saw such a picture was around 1970, when the US was using Hercules aircraft to defoliate the Ho Chi Minh trail in Vietnam - from two thousand feet.

[truthseeker1980]

Doesn't it make sense to you that if a halo can only be caused by ice crystals then all the trails and fake cloud made by them that are in the sky at the same time as such a halo must mean they are made of ice crystals too? Particles of anything else do not form halos or rainbows. Shine sunlight through a dust cloud and you get neither.

Ice will always form in the sky at high altitude's anyway, have you never seen hail stones?

So what has that got to do with chemtrails? Just because you can see a halo around the sun, doesn't mean that the halo you are seeing, or the ice causing it came from the arse of a plane. There is always moisture in the sky, which will inadvertently freeze.

Dis-info!!!!

[the_real_jazzroc]

How come then, if as you say, they are 'harmless ice crystals', do we see 'campaigns' in the sky?
Air travel IS one long campaign. Check out the number of flights in the air at any one time. The figures are freely available. They ARE STILL THERE when no trails are visible. You just can't spot the planes... there's LOTS of them, they're burning nearly a million tons of jet fuel per day, and creating a million tons of ice in the stratosphere, ALSO per day.

Also, why some days, is it perfectly clear, not one trail that lasts longer than a few seconds/a minute. Then a day or 2 later, the sky is hammered again.
Because the weather VARIES. Hadn't you noticed? When a layer of the stratosphere is humid, you will see trails in it. When it isn't - you won't.

They're putting 'harmless ice crystals'?
One natural combustion product of burning kerosine is STEAM. For a few thousandths of a second (the gap you see behind the engines) it is INVISIBLE STEAM. At -40, steam becomes ICE.

And what about the black chemtrails?
The stratosphere is stable and layered in ribbon-like streams of air with differing temperatures and humidities. At layer boundaries you will often see a thin wispy gauze-like layer. Any trail shadows thrown by the sun and falling from above and onto these layers are going to appear DARK (they are shadows!)

ha..yeh right.
Ha. Yeah. Wrong. Check this (http://hubpages.com/hub/To-Chemtrailers-Twenty-Things-You-Dont-Know).

[cruise4]

"The next time you see these planes, please take a picture of them so that we can verify the truth of what you say."

I can't mate... no camera nor do I intend to buy one. I did have a video camera but gave it to someone more in need. Ultimately I don't care what others believe... I know. Check the forums and you will see I've posted this info on at least 3 seperate occasions and some time ago. It was one spraying and two not. I had such a good view I wish I had got a camera but it was hard enough keeping the telescope on them as it was. I recommend binoculars. Tell me about the Orange stripe up the tail. What planes have that marking?

What is interesting is the why this bloke is here now with few posts. His refute to my altitude assertion is totally bogus, but in general with planes and heights its true. In my case there's zero doubt. These things were near and in formation.

On another occasion I saw one of the black line things in front and I do not go for the shadow argument at all. That time the sky wasn't full of them. Anyway I'm not going to respond again. Seen it all with the 9/11 naysayers. What is going on I don't know. Something is going on I certainly do.

[eternal_spirit]

"The planes only appear at the same height from an observation point down here"

Bogus. I am on a hill, had a telescope and these planes were flying at the same height (low level) and I could see clearly. It's disinfo. Believe whatever you want.
...............

Same here I'm another eyewitness

I've watched the sky all day for years, so the it's "just contrail theory" don't wash, there's huge differences between "cons" and "chems".

[the_real_jazzroc]

Ice will always form in the sky at high altitude's anyway, have you never seen hail stones?
Hailstones ONLY form in the centres of cumulonimbus clouds. These are NOT high, when compared with stratospheric altitudes. The highest part of a cu-nim (the "anvil") is BELOW the tropopause, and made of fine crystals of ice. They ARE similar to the cirrus and contrail ices.
Hailstones, on the other hand are created at HALF that altitude...

Dis-info!!!!
The disinfo's ALL YOURS.

[the_real_jazzroc]

it was hard enough keeping the telescope on them as it was. /BLAH/ These things were near and in formation
I see.

[truthseeker1980]

As cruise4 and etrenal spirit have both said we are eye witnesses to this, it doesn't wash with me either. I have also seen one with a black line in front, so has my brother and I have also seen one following a red/brown line whilst spraying in the morning and it wasn't a ducky light so it wasn't the sun reflecting on the line causing it to appear brown/red.

I learnt about contrails at school i know exactly what they are and these trails being left these days are not contrails. Like i said, i used to always watch planes leave contrails when i was an ickle kid and these aint contrails. I am scpetical about most things, but this I am not as i can see it with my own eyes and i have a memory.

Someone saying that because he can see a halo around the sun, then they must be contrails is even less proof than the photo's that are documented on here about them.

Ice crystals would have formed a halo around the sun 100 years ago when there were no planes, so its besides the point.

[the_real_jazzroc]

As cruise4 and eternal spirit have both said we are eyewitnesses to this, it doesn't wash with me either. I have also seen one with a black line in front, so has my brother and I have also seen one following a red/brown line whilst spraying in the morning and it wasn't a ducky light so it wasn't the sun reflecting on the line causing it to appear brown/red.
A scientific understanding would help you interpret what you see more accurately. At high altitudes the sun has already risen, so may throw a shadow from a chemtrail onto an appropriate "screen".
At the same time, down below where you are, the rising sun may be suffusing the countryside with subtracted red light (the blue light having already been scattered).
Light reflected upward from the land may well backlight the shadow with a reddish-brown color.

I learnt about contrails at school i know exactly what they are and these trails being left these days are not contrails. Like i said, i used to always watch planes leave contrails when i was an ickle kid and these ain't contrails. I am sceptical about most things, but this I am not as i can see it with my own eyes and i have a memory.
I suspect that your memory, like mine, is NOT eidetic, and it it is better to trust to physical records for evidence. I also suspect that you may have a few gaps in your contrail education which you would do better to fill, rather than pass comment about them from a rather weak position.

Someone saying that because he can see a halo around the sun, then they must be contrails is even less proof than the photos that are documented on here about them.
What halos CANNOT BE is DUST. Surely this is a point?

Ice crystals would have formed a halo around the sun 100 years ago when there were no planes, so it's beside the point.
Is it? I would have thought it's EXACTLY to the point. The atmosphere - apart from being wetter - is UNCHANGED. Er, and these "chemtrails"?

[shodan]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4398507,00.html

Millions were in germ war tests
Much of Britain was exposed to bacteria sprayed in secret trials

Antony Barnett, public affairs editor
Observer

Sunday April 21, 2002


The Ministry of Defence turned large parts of the country into a giant laboratory to conduct a series of secret germ warfare tests on the public.

A government report just released provides for the first time a comprehensive official history of Britain's biological weapons trials between 1940 and 1979.

Many of these tests involved releasing potentially dangerous chemicals and micro-organisms over vast swaths of the population without the public being told.

While details of some secret trials have emerged in recent years, the 60-page report reveals new information about more than 100 covert experiments.

The report reveals that military personnel were briefed to tell any 'inquisitive inquirer' the trials were part of research projects into weather and air pollution.

The tests, carried out by government scientists at Porton Down, were designed to help the MoD assess Britain's vulnerability if the Russians were to have released clouds of deadly germs over the country.

[truthseeker1980]

[QUOTE=the_real_jazzroc;378342]A scientific understanding would help you interpret what you see more accurately. At high altitudes the sun has already risen, so may throw a shadow from a chemtrail onto an appropriate "screen".
At the same time, down below where you are, the rising sun may be suffusing the countryside with subtracted red light (the blue light having already been scattered).
Light reflected upward from the land may well backlight the shadow with a reddish-brown color.

hat halos CANNOT BE is DUST. Surely this is a point? QUOTE]

Erm no, how can that be a point? I dont understand how the halo thing has anything to do with chemtrails apprently being contrails. Ice will and always has formed in the sky, before planes had even been invented.

I am not stupid I know what kind of light you are talking about and if that was the case the other trails in the sky would have been the same colour, as they are on a heavy spraying day on a summer evening or morning. What I saw was just one being that colour and the rest the usual white/grey, thinning out to start forming clouds.

One thing i do remember from school and have even asked pilots about contrails, a real contrail, I.e frozen vapour from the jet engine cant form a cloud. But these chemtrails which you are saying are contrails do.

Also two planes in the sky at once, one leaving a chemtrail and one leaving a contrail. I suspect once you witness that you will be a little more sceptical of your own current views, as for me seeing that was what firmly sealed it for me.

I only first saw two planes like that a few weeks ago so it seems they are getting slack and forgetting people like us are watching the skies.

[cruise4]

And now we have another 5 post wonder the_real_jazzroc.

[chattanova]

"The planes only appear at the same height from an observation point down here"

Bogus. I am on a hill, had a telescope and these planes were flying at the same height (low level) and I could see clearly. It's disinfo. Believe whatever you want.

Yes, like these, they cant be that far away from the non-spraying one.
And how can planes be flying as close as this in 'normal air-space') Very good clip.

VIDEOhttp://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/4521/Near_Miss_Plane_Collision_/

[the_real_jazzroc]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4398507,00.html
Your point, exactly?

[the_real_jazzroc]

And now we have another 5 post wonder the_real_jazzroc.
Your point, exactly?

[the_real_jazzroc]

Yes, like these, they can't be that far away from the non-spraying one.
Ha ha. Four miles?

And how can planes be flying as close as this in 'normal air-space') Very good clip.
A miss is as good as a half-mile.

Haven't you any judgement? I wouldn't want to be a passenger in your car.

[the_real_jazzroc]

I don't understand how the halo thing has anything to do with chemtrails apparently being contrails.
It is you that thinks that contrails apparently are "chemtrails".

Ice will and always has formed in the sky, before planes had even been invented.
So exactly WHAT are "chembows"? Rainbows that you THINK are "chembows"?

I am not stupid I know what kind of light you are talking about and if that was the case the other trails in the sky would have been the same.
Would they indeed?

frozen vapour from the jet engine can't form a cloud.
Quite wrong. Completely and totally.

But these chemtrails which you are saying are contrails do.
No, these contrails you are saying are "chemtrails" DO.

Also two planes in the sky at once, one leaving a chemtrail and one leaving a contrail.
The distinction between these is?

I suspect once you witness that you will be a little more sceptical of your own current views, as for me seeing that was what firmly sealed it for me.
Hmm. I shall try harder for my next fifty-seven years of observing aircraft.

I only first saw two planes like that a few weeks ago so it seems they are getting slack and forgetting people like us are watching the skies.
With people like you "they" have no worries.

If you watch the sky you'll see the Sun go round the Earth.

DOES the Sun go round the Earth?

[logic bomb]

How do you explain these? And please don't say shadows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsXQvJnwWIA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enxcnnUz9IU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vel7iox_1ao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk1lUioIHBQ

[truthseeker1980]

It is you that thinks that contrails apparently are "chemtrails".


So exactly WHAT are "chembows"? Rainbows that you THINK are "chembows"?

I have not once mentioned chembows, as I haven't actually seen one, untiliI see one with my own eyes I shall remain scpetical about chembows, so again I dont understand your point. I dont think i ever will to be honest. I have watched the sky since a little boy, i used to count how long a contrail stayed in the sky when i was a kid, so you cant pull the wool over my eyes mate.

The distinction between these is?
Do you really need me to explain the difference between them again? A contrail trails behind a plane over an area of feet in distance and melt within minutes. A chemtrail stays in the sky, slowly getting puffier at first, then after about an hour starts to thin out and form a very thin wispy cloud. I saw one plane leaving a bonefide contrail and one plane adding to the rest of the chemtrails in the sky, at the same time. Like i said I am sure once you see that for yourself you may start being less sceptical.


With people like you "they" have no worries.

If you watch the sky you'll see the Sun go round the Earth.

DOES the Sun go round the Earth?

Again the point you are tyring to make is what?

[bardofely]

Erm no, how can that be a point? I dont understand how the halo thing has anything to do with chemtrails apprently being contrails. Ice will and always has formed in the sky, before planes had even been invented.



I don't understand why you can't understand but I will explain again:

I had been seeing persistent trails that you call chemtrails, as I did then. I had also several times seen sun halos in the sky at the same times as such trails or when the sky had been messed up by them. I had not seen sun halos before - only in recent years after the "spraying" became a regular thing to see in the sky. I concluded logically and by using my eyes that such halos were formed by the white cloudiness in the sky caused by the trails the planes were laying down.

I also saw on more than one chemtrail site that sun halos were a Hopi sign of the end of this system and the Day of the Purification. So now that I was seeing these halos I thought it fitted in with that belief system too - it confirmed my belief. I saw elsewhere that sun halos were "rare" so how is it I was seeing them on a regular basis? Obviously because when that "fact" had been written it was true but not any more due to what I was calling chemtrails.

So as a CT-believer I viewed the trails, the planes leaving them, the fake cloud and the sun halos as a threat or the signs of a threat.

Somehow my logic cut out totally because I didn't think about moon halos or what causes them or conclude logically that the same conditions were responsible - namely ice crystals! As I explained originally I am well aware that belief overrides logic and so it had done with me!

I had seen and read and believed countless reports and videos that say that metals and solid substances like aluminum and barium and sulphur and even dessicated blood cells and spores were in the clouds being left by the trails. I had read countless reports of people claiming that dust they could see in the air and all over everything below was left by chemtrails and caused illness. I believed this.

But after my realisation I also realised that if the trails and the fake clouds were made of solid particles or dust of aluminum or whatever then they would never make a halo nor would they make what some CT-believers call "chembows", nor would they make the strange iridescent effects reported and photographed but ice would!

So that left me with the conclusion that possibly all of what I had seen over the years and all of the photos, and all of the videos I had seen were only of ice crystals and that struck me as really very crazy indeed - that here I was and here were all these other people making a big deal and in many cases getting depressed and stressed over ice crystals in a sky that is much wetter than it used to be! In a sky that has far far more planes in it than it used to!

[the_real_jazzroc]

How do you explain these? And please don't say shadows.
Ha ha. Tricky...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsXQvJnwWIA
A line of obscuration traced on a thin film of ice crystals (lying on a layer about 1500 feet lower than the altitude of the aircraft laying the contrail) caused by the trail itself. Light from the Sun is causing this effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enxcnnUz9IU
A linear feature of darkness traced on a thin film of ice crystals (lying on a layer about 1500 feet lower than the altitude of the aircraft laying the contrail) caused by the trail itself. Light from the Sun is causing this effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vel7iox_1ao
A washing line. Oh, I see!

A non-curvilinear feature of sombrosity traced on a thin film of ice crystals (lying on a layer about 1500 feet lower than the altitude of the aircraft laying the contrail) caused by the trail itself. Light from the Sun is causing this effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk1lUioIHBQ
Er.... A poor photographer takes a picture of sky and it fails...

Sorry about the slight delay. I had something better to do... a nice walk with the dog and wife, down to a sunny plaza by the sea and a few beers. A hard choice...

Notice there is NO mention of the word "shadow".

Other dark lines can and do appear as a consequence of the passage of aircraft. These are caused by the WAVE VORTEX generated by the wings of the aircraft. These are stable rotating interlocked vortices left in the wake of all aircraft, trailing back behind them for miles before they have lost their rotational energy and dissipated. These vortices cut like knives through the thin layers of stratus and cirrus clouds.

Talking of dissipation, is your avatar actually a picture of YOU? If so, let me tell you I like your ears, and find myself wrestling with a terrible desire to nuzzle them...

[beldazar]

yeah right! youve only just come on here and its all youve got to talk about? You must think we are all stupid! LMAO

[the_real_jazzroc]

i used to count how long a contrail stayed in the sky when i was a kid, so you can't pull the wool over my eyes mate.
Apart from correcting your punctuation, mate, and explaining atmospheric physics to you, I have no intention whatsoever of "pulling the wool over your eyes". There is more happening up there than what you can see. It is PHYSICS, and therefore subject to mathematical calculations. Depending on the Relative Humidity and the Temperature, the disappearance of that contrail could be calculated in terms of seconds. But how do you KNOW what these are? The answer is by flying with the plane and using instruments CALIBRATED to measure the exact humidity and temperature. If you haven't got those - pffft - you are pissing in the wind. Count your seconds - it doesn't mean ****.

A contrail trails behind a plane over an area of feet in distance and melt within minutes.
You mean the gas turbine fanjet exhaust STEAM at 2000 degrees freezes almost instantly to ICE which sublimes to invisible water vapor at a rate according to the relative humidity of the stratospheric air.

A chemtrail stays in the sky
A contrail stays in the sky....

slowly getting puffier at first, then after about an hour starts to thin out and form a very thin wispy cloud.
Getting blown about in a pair of interlocked helices (the WAVE VORTEX) for tens of minutes before it distributes itself through that particular stratospheric layer - unless it sublimes, etc. On the other hand, in supersaturated conditions it may INCREASE in weight as it acts as nucleii for deposition of the "excess" vapor.


I saw one plane leaving a bona fide contrail and one plane adding to the rest of the chemtrails in the sky, at the same time.
You saw one plane in a drier layer and another in a wetter layer.

you may start being less sceptical.
When I meet anyone capable of any scientific understanding.


Again the point you are trying to make is what?
That you have no point at all. That "chemtrails" are a figment of your dull imagination. Sorry, that's TWO points - but in the meanwhile I've had supper with a salad, fruit cocktail, and wine with my science teacher wife.

We debated what it meant to be chosen to be the Dalai Lama - a far more interesting conversation than this has been so far, if you don't mind me saying.

[lizzy]

The chemtrail has been analyized many times. Heavy metals have always been found and I think that nanoparticles also found contribute to Morgellons.

[the_real_jazzroc]

yeah right! youve only just come on here and its all youve got to talk about? You must think we are all stupid! LMAO
No! I'm quite willing to give you a chance to redeem yourself. Throw me your best punch.... :D

[the_real_jazzroc]

The chemtrail has been analyzed many times. Heavy metals have always been found and I think that nanoparticles also found contribute to Morgellons.
RAINWATER has been analyzed and found to contain clay dust (aluminum silicate). If the samples are collected by the roadside, then combustion products from anti-knock petrol additives will also find their way in there (Lead, Selenium, Arsenic). In one notorious case the samples were taken in an area of intensive barium mining. The parts per billion have ALWAYS been within EPA limits - ie., you could drink the stuff without harm. (Wouldn't be nice, though!) That doesn't seem to be what you are intimating.

NOWHERE have I read that "nanoparticles" (I doubt that you understand what that means!) have been found in RAINWATER.

Could you indicate to me the source of your information?

[the_real_jazzroc]

That basis alone isn't enough evidence against them for me I'm afraid.
Nor should it be. But perhaps reading a book on atmospheric physics might help in your case.

Ice crystals would NOT last for hours & spread into cloud, just not possible I'm afraid!
In what world is this? I can quote you many examples which directly contradict you. Look up "Science on Trails" here (http://jazzroc.wordpress.com).

There's way more convincing evidence proving chemtrails than disproving them imo.
I've seen NONE at all. Please don't show me pictures of contrails as evidence of "chemtrails"!

I sure wish this wasn't the case as I'd quite happily change my mind & believe otherwise but unfortunately the dumbing down of society is a very real issue right now on lots of levels:(
It seems to have made YOU unaware of your own hypocrisy. (Said by aged scientist so old as to have preceded said "dumbing down"!)

Yeah, they have virtually admitted to it now in some areas.
Chaff, and old chemical/biological defense trials bear NO RELATIONSHIP with "chemtrail" "theory". NO-ONE has admitted "chemtrails". (Or would - as they don't exist at all!)

Your vid of bubble-ring-blowing porpoises is totally charming. I expected to see something similar to the deep-ring fishing used by whales, and had no idea how inventive porpoises could be. They ought to be conscripted into politics.

[beldazar]

sorry jazzoroc! I cant reach you from here, :D:D:D

[the_real_jazzroc]

sorry jazzoroc! I cant reach you from here, :D:D:D
Then, like a dog from "LA Confidential", you "ain't got no reason to exist".

Blow!

[neil]

Given that there are many more planes flying these days, many at different altitudes in the same bit of sky, it's possible that some will leave condensation trails and others won't. Our memories of clearer skies - mine certainly - are from the early to mid 70s and 80s, when there were fewer planes overall.

This is not to say that weather alteration, or HAARP-related, projects involving spraying or whatever are not taking place.

But I think there is a difference between those two situations.

[beldazar]

sorry, dont watch la confidential.......

[marpat]

You may know that I was for years a chemtrail believer and a person who was doing what I could to raise awareness on the subject, well the situation has recently changed and I no longer believe that the persistent trails we see or the white fake cloud cover is made up of harmful chemicals and metals. I now believe it is made up of harmless ice crystals, which is what the authorities had said all along is what is in a contrail!

The reason for my change of thinking I will explain: many of you will have heard of a guy who has been posting as JazzRoc who has been called a "debunker" at YouTube and a lot of other things such as "working for the government," which I know to be rubbish seeing as I personally know him! Anyway, I had had very bad disagreements with him on the subject of chemtrails before and at one stage blocked him at Myspace. He can be very rude and insulting and it pushed my anger button too far! However, we managed to get over that until recently when he waded into my chemtrails Hub Page where a very heated argument took place in public and by email - you can read it here:
http://hubpages.com/_uq6h62db2t97/hub/Are-chemtrails-real-and-contrails-a-con

However, in the course of the argument he asked me two things: 1. didn't I know that ice crystals made moon and sun halos? and 2. didn't I realise that dust or particles cannot form halos and would clog up engines of a plane?

Until that point in time I had connected sun halos with chemtrails and fake cloud made by them BUT I hadn't realised that what was making the halos by day was obviously the same as what does so by night around the moon! And yet I had known that ice was the reason for moon halos, which I had seen since a child. This meant that if it was ice in the sun halo then it was ice in fake clouds and the trails! I could see that my belief in chemtrails had blinded me to seeing this logic and I am well aware that beliefs can do this to people - beliefs override logical thought!

Next I knew damned well that dust and particles in the air do not form halos or rainbows (chembows). The island I live in, as does JazzRoc, often is covered in dust clouds from the Sahara known as calimas and whilst the dust lowers visibility vastly so it is like looking through a thick fog it never produces any sort of halo or bow effect.

So with these realisations I had to admit I had been wrong and had stopped myself seeing the logical arguments presented by JazzRoc. This has led me to realise further that worldwide countless people are being worried and scared about nothing more than ice crystals! Fear is generated by nothing more than frozen water that is whitening our skies! In many parts of the world stricken by drought we need that water brought down to Earth!

Why now I couldn't tell you but I do know that persistent contrails are not a new phenomena but have been documented and photographed in the past with the only difference being that they were not called chemtrails then nor was there a movement of people believing in a chemtrail conspiracy!

As for the illnesses people are suffering (and I am one of them having chronic sinus problems) - they can be caused by other factors such as air pollution from industry and traffic and new pollens such as those of GM crops.

The reason the elite do not have to worry about breathing in the poisons from the chemtrails is that there was nothing to worry about - there are no poisons!

With my new way of viewing the matter I recommend JazzRoc's article here:

http://hubpages.com/hub/To-Chemtrailers-Twenty-Things-You-Dont-Know

and the site: http://contrailscience.com/


I agree with you here. I have argued things like this many times before in these threads. A person should be asking questions about the subject rather than just believing them. I have seen nothing in the threads which is convincing but I have seen many attempts by people to pass off the most innocent and easily explained pics and vids as conclusive proof of chemtrails. Pure desperation to prove what amounts to a belief. If it was a physical fact people could physically prove it to us all.

[the_real_jazzroc]

A person should be asking questions about the subject rather than just believing them. I have seen nothing in the threads which is convincing but I have seen many attempts by people to pass off the most innocent and easily explained pics and vids as conclusive proof of chemtrails. Pure desperation to prove what amounts to a belief. If it was a physical fact people could physically prove it to us all.
Holy Mother of God! Pardon my French...

How pleasant it is to agree with someone...

[marpat]

Holy Mother of God! Pardon my French...

How pleasant it is to agree with someone...

How nice it is to see that people can wake up and assess the evidence and see that what people are pushing is just fantasy.

Good on you!!!!

[shodan]

Your point, exactly?

My point is they've admitted they have sprayed us in the past, a huge campaign involving the the whole of the UK at the very least.

The Alton Towers amusement park discussed spraying the skies to improve tourism in the local papers in that area. On live TV the other day, I think it was the Grand Prix, they were worried about it being rained off and the comentator said 'they are going to send some planes up there to sort it out'. there have been recent protests in Nottingham or Norwich can't remember which, by families who have a history of cancer, which they are blameing on spraying campaingns admitted by the MOD. China have admitted it. This is just a few examples of many, however the best evidence is your own eyes, just watch those trails turn the sky into a white haze, brown clouds, beautiful sunny mornings into a sky thats a grey drab sheet. the planes go up, often with a smaller plane right next to them, go back and then repeat. They are not on commercial flight paths.

We know these people are not very nice to say the least, if they had an ounce of empathy they would give rain to Africa.

Marpat, people are asking questions, nothing to do with belief systems (there is nothing more I would like than to be proven wrong and sigh a big sigh of relief) but concern for future generations. Why are you not concerned? does your belief system refuse to accept the possibility? Here's the article from the guardian again, with the relevant bit in bold:

Millions were in germ war tests
Much of Britain was exposed to bacteria sprayed in secret trials

Antony Barnett, public affairs editor
Observer

Sunday April 21, 2002


The Ministry of Defence turned large parts of the country into a giant laboratory to conduct a series of secret germ warfare tests on the public.

A government report just released provides for the first time a comprehensive official history of Britain's biological weapons trials between 1940 and 1979.

Many of these tests involved releasing potentially dangerous chemicals and micro-organisms over vast swaths of the population without the public being told.

While details of some secret trials have emerged in recent years, the 60-page report reveals new information about more than 100 covert experiments.

The report reveals that military personnel were briefed to tell any 'inquisitive inquirer' the trials were part of research projects into weather and air pollution.

The tests, carried out by government scientists at Porton Down, were designed to help the MoD assess Britain's vulnerability if the Russians were to have released clouds of deadly germs over the country.

In most cases, the trials did not use biological weapons but alternatives which scientists believed would mimic germ warfare and which the MoD claimed were harmless. But families in certain areas of the country who have children with birth defects are demanding a public inquiry.

One chapter of the report, 'The Fluorescent Particle Trials', reveals how between 1955 and 1963 planes flew from north-east England to the tip of Cornwall along the south and west coasts, dropping huge amounts of zinc cadmium sulphide on the population. The chemical drifted miles inland, its fluorescence allowing the spread to be monitored. In another trial using zinc cadmium sulphide, a generator was towed along a road near Frome in Somerset where it spewed the chemical for an hour.

While the Government has insisted the chemical is safe, cadmium is recognised as a cause of lung cancer and during the Second World War was considered by the Allies as a chemical weapon.

In another chapter, 'Large Area Coverage Trials', the MoD describes how between 1961 and 1968 more than a million people along the south coast of England, from Torquay to the New Forest, were exposed to bacteria including e.coli and bacillus globigii , which mimics anthrax. These releases came from a military ship, the Icewhale, anchored off the Dorset coast, which sprayed the micro-organisms in a five to 10-mile radius.

The report also reveals details of the DICE trials in south Dorset between 1971 and 1975. These involved US and UK military scientists spraying into the air massive quantities of serratia marcescens bacteria, with an anthrax simulant and phenol.

Similar bacteria were released in 'The Sabotage Trials' between 1952 and 1964. These were tests to determine the vulnerability of large government buildings and public transport to attack. In 1956 bacteria were released on the London Underground at lunchtime along the Northern Line between Colliers Wood and Tooting Broadway. The results show that the organism dispersed about 10 miles. Similar tests were conducted in tunnels running under government buildings in Whitehall.

Experiments conducted between 1964 and 1973 involved attaching germs to the threads of spiders' webs in boxes to test how the germs would survive in different environments. These tests were carried out in a dozen locations across the country, including London's West End, Southampton and Swindon. The report also gives details of more than a dozen smaller field trials between 1968 and 1977.

In recent years, the MoD has commissioned two scientists to review the safety of these tests. Both reported that there was no risk to public health, although one suggested the elderly or people suffering from breathing illnesses may have been seriously harmed if they inhaled sufficient quantities of micro-organisms.

However, some families in areas which bore the brunt of the secret tests are convinced the experiments have led to their children suffering birth defects, physical handicaps and learning difficulties.

David Orman, an army officer from Bournemouth, is demanding a public inquiry. His wife, Janette, was born in East Lulworth in Dorset, close to where many of the trials took place. She had a miscarriage, then gave birth to a son with cerebral palsy. Janette's three sisters, also born in the village while the tests were being carried out, have also given birth to children with unexplained problems, as have a number of their neighbours.

The local health authority has denied there is a cluster, but Orman believes otherwise. He said: 'I am convinced something terrible has happened. The village was a close-knit community and to have so many birth defects over such a short space of time has to be more than coincidence.'

Successive governments have tried to keep details of the germ warfare tests secret. While reports of a number of the trials have emerged over the years through the Public Records Office, this latest MoD document - which was released to Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker - gives the fullest official version of the biological warfare trials yet.

Baker said: 'I welcome the fact that the Government has finally released this information, but question why it has taken so long. It is unacceptable that the public were treated as guinea pigs without their knowledge, and I want to be sure that the Ministry of Defence's claims that these chemicals and bacteria used were safe is true.'

The MoD report traces the history of the UK's research into germ warfare since the Second World War when Porton Down produced five million cattle cakes filled with deadly anthrax spores which would have been dropped in Germany to kill their livestock. It also gives details of the infamous anthrax experiments on Gruinard on the Scottish coast which left the island so contaminated it could not be inhabited until the late 1980s.

The report also confirms the use of anthrax and other deadly germs on tests aboard ships in the Caribbean and off the Scottish coast during the 1950s. The document states: 'Tacit approval for simulant trials where the public might be exposed was strongly influenced by defence security considerations aimed obviously at restricting public knowledge. An important corollary to this was the need to avoid public alarm and disquiet about the vulnerability of the civil population to BW attack.'

[B]Sue Ellison, spokeswoman for Porton Down, said: 'Independent reports by eminent scientists have shown there was no danger to public health from these releases which were carried out to protect the public.

'The results from these trials_ will save lives, should the country or our forces face an attack by chemical and biological weapons.'

Asked whether such tests are still being carried out, she said: 'It is not our policy to discuss ongoing research.'

[horus21]

Thats a great picture of you bardofely. Id vote you in office any day of the week.

[the_count]

I have no doubt that we have been sprayed in the past ond its probably still going on, but generally 99% of what we see in the skies is more likely contrails, the reason we see more trails than years back (i'm 39) I understand is because modern jet engines enable aircraft to fly at much higher altitudes than say in the 70's when i were a lad :) so the ice particles stay in the air longer due to the air temperature which above 40,000ft is in the region of -60C

[the_real_jazzroc]

My point is they've admitted they have sprayed us in the past, a huge campaign involving the the whole of the UK at the very least.
NO. They didn't have the sort of technology you have daydreamed. If you READ and UNDERSTOOD what was written you would have seen they carried out such an inept set of experiments (with COMPLETELY harmless materials) that they weren't able to formulate any conclusions. They were as inept as you! :eek:

The Alton Towers amusement park discussed spraying the skies to improve tourism in the local papers in that area.
Ha ha. That makes it likely then! :D

On live TV the other day, I think it was the Grand Prix, they were
worried about it being rained off and the commentator said 'they are going to send some planes up there to sort it out'.
(Explosion of mirth) Oh, wow! Even more definite! (These smileys are USELESS)

there have been recent protests in Nottingham or Norwich can't remember which, by families who have a history of cancer, which they are blaming on spraying campaigns admitted by the MOD.
Yeah. Takes me back to old Ealing comedies - I remember Eric Sykes playing a "claimant".

China has admitted it.
What - actually admitted spraying POISONS on their population? Or admitted seeding clouds to produce rain?

the best evidence is your own eyes, just watch those trails turn the sky into a white haze, brown clouds, beautiful sunny mornings into a sky that's a grey drab sheet.
Yeah, while you're at it, check the Sun, which (using your eyes) OBVIOUSLY goes round the Earth. Tell everyone the Sun goes round the Earth, because everyone foolishly believes otherwise.

All this time, scientists have been conspiring to keep YOU in the dark...

the planes go up, often with a smaller plane right next to them, go back and then repeat. They are not on commercial flight paths.
Another EXPERT unfortunately NOT employed by Air Traffic Control. (These days they don't employ psychics with poor distance judgement.)

We know these people are not very nice to say the least, if they had an ounce of empathy they would give rain to Africa.
Psychic abilities to the fore (once more) - exactly HOW much "rain" would that be?

there is nothing more I would like than to be proven wrong and sigh a big sigh of relief
Such a hypocrisy overload :eek:

Why are you not concerned?
Bollocks I find quite unconcerning. Repeated bollocks becomes concerning.

does your belief system refuse to accept the possibility?
Scientists don't operate a "belief system". This prevents them from telling lies, or repeating lies. You should learn some science and follow their example.

[cruise4]

I can't help myself...

"Scientists don't operate a "belief system". This prevents them from telling lies, or repeating lies. You should learn some science and follow their example."

HaHaHa :D:D:D

[the_real_jazzroc]

I have no doubt that we have been sprayed in the past
Evidence?

and it's probably still going on
Evidence?

99% of what we see in the skies is more likely contrails
100%.

the reason we see more trails than years back (i'm 39) I understand is because modern jet engines enable aircraft to fly at much higher altitudes than say in the 70's when i were a lad :)
WRONG. Since the mid-fifties all jet engines have been designed to function in the stratosphere, and have done - from 26,000ft to 45,000ft.

so the ice particles stay in the air longer due to the air temperature
WRONG. The ice particles stay in the air longer as the saturation of the stratospheric air with water vapour approaches 100%.

which above 40,000ft is in the region of -60C
RIGHT.

[the_real_jazzroc]

I can't help myself...
That is perfectly obvious.

[the_count]

Evidence?


Evidence?


100%.


WRONG. Since the mid-fifties all jet engines have been designed to function in the stratosphere, and have done - from 26,000ft to 45,000ft.


WRONG. The ice particles stay in the air longer as the saturation of the stratospheric air with water vapour approaches 100%.


RIGHT.

I didnt say it was fact - just my take on things from the little i have picked up.
I find it hard to believe we are constantly being sprayed, but some claim evidence of heavy metal particles etc from these trails, wether its true or not i dont know, it however would not suprise me.

[cruise4]

This is the final Lab Report RE: air material analysis. This was a 28 day collection via HEPA filter, 8 hours per day collection. Please note the extremely high Aluminum reading 12,800,000 ppb.

The actual lab report is below.

Please let us know if you have research material surrounding this 'report'. All ideas are encouraged. Previous analysis records are rain, surface water and soil.

Bridget Conroy
ArizonaSkyWatch.com
6-8-8

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/hepa.jpg

[cruise4]

http://imageevent.com/firesat/strangedaysstrangeskies?z=3&c=4&n=1&m=-1&w=4&x=0&p=14

http://www.carnicom.com/

http://www.rense.com/politics6/chemdatapage.html

[the_real_jazzroc]

I didn't say it was fact - just my take on things from the little i have picked up.
Well, I'm providing you with clear info. You can get more below.

I find it hard to believe we are constantly being sprayed
It strains credulity on several fronts, does it not?

but some claim evidence of heavy metal particles etc., from these trails.
What I've seen was a collected rainwater video duplicated over and over again which talked about collecting water by a roadside near a barium-mining area (facts not mentioned in the video). The figures were misread, given an upward interpretation of 1000%. The water was actually drinkable, non-poisonous (by EPA standards) though I'm sure it wouldn't have tasted nice.

Whether it's true or not, i dont know, it however would not surprise me.
This I can appreciate. However, if someone IS shafting you, he's going to do it easily if your attention is wrongly directed. Get my point?

INFO 1 (http://hubpages.com/hub/To-Chemtrailers-Twenty-Things-You-Dont-Know) INFO 2 (http://jazzroc.wordpress.com) INFO 3 (http://www.contrailscience.com)

[the_real_jazzroc]

This is the final Lab Report RE: air material analysis. This was a 28 day collection via HEPA filter, 8 hours per day collection. Please note the extremely high Aluminum reading 12,800,000 ppb.

The actual lab report is below.

Please let us know if you have research material surrounding this 'report'. All ideas are encouraged. Previous analysis records are rain, surface water and soil.

Bridget Conroy
ArizonaSkyWatch.com
6-8-8

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/hepa.jpg

The answer to this 'report' (which skywatch cannot provide, and nor can you, cruise4) is straightaway that "Aluminum reading 12,800,000 ppb" is MEANINGLESS.

Parts per billion of what? Of Aluminum in dust particles?

Also if you check the dilution column you will see 'factors' of 50 or 5. This suggests a tenfold disparity in the numbers for a start.

The 'killer' is that you don't know how much air passed through that filter.

And the 'report' doesn't tell you...

As explained here (http://contrailscience.com/chemtrail-non-science/).

But on past experience ANY lie will do when people can't understand science, so....

[bardofely]

Thats a great picture of you bardofely. Id vote you in office any day of the week.

Thank you for the compliment, Horus! :)

[bardofely]

How nice it is to see that people can wake up and assess the evidence and see that what people are pushing is just fantasy.

Good on you!!!!

Thank you for posting, Marpat! The evidence I eventually did wake up to look at and I have now concluded that people are worried and feel threatened by no more than ice crystals and clay and until recently I was one such person!

[shodan]

NO. They didn't have the sort of technology you have daydreamed. If you READ and UNDERSTOOD what was written you would have seen they carried out such an inept set of experiments (with COMPLETELY harmless materials) that they weren't able to formulate any conclusions. They were as inept as you! :eek:

You know nothing about my daydreams matey. I read and understood the article very well. you seem now to be admitting they have admitted to spraying us.

Ha ha. That makes it likely then! :D

just one of many examples, I never said it was proof, its a collection of examples all pointing in the same direction - they are spraying us, being weather modification, depopulation, military, whatever, they are spraying the skies and not talking about it in the mainstream media unless they absolutely have to.

(Explosion of mirth) Oh, wow! Even more definite! (These smileys are USELESS)

same as above, you can single out a point and ridicule it as much as you like, put the whole lot together and somethings not quite right is it?

Yeah. Takes me back to old Ealing comedies - I remember Eric Sykes playing a "claimant".

deadly serious stuff, you should talk to the victims and families. I never dug sykes.

What - actually admitted spraying POISONS on their population? Or admitted seeding clouds to produce rain?

spraying the skies, and therefore the air everyone breathes. you keep putting words in my mouth

Yeah, while you're at it, check the Sun, which (using your eyes) OBVIOUSLY goes round the Earth. Tell everyone the Sun goes round the Earth, because everyone foolishly believes otherwise.

All this time, scientists have been conspiring to keep YOU in the dark...

what are you on about? and yeah, scientists have been keeping us in the dark about tons of stuff for a long time.

Another EXPERT unfortunately NOT employed by Air Traffic Control. (These days they don't employ psychics with poor distance judgement.)

more attempted ridicule. my distance judgement is fine, as is my knowledge of local flight paths.

Psychic abilities to the fore (once more) - exactly HOW much "rain" would that be?

what a ridiculous question.

Such a hypocrisy overload :eek:

no hyprocrisy at all, thats exactly how I feel. you've said nothing thats making me think they are not spraying the skies, quite the opposite.

Bollocks I find quite unconcerning. Repeated bollocks becomes concerning.

repeated Bollocks becomes tedious, and obvious. It would never cross my mind to spend so much time on a forum I disagree with, I guess your really here because you care about us and want to help us right?

scientists don't operate a "belief system". This prevents them from telling lies, or repeating lies. You should learn some science and follow their example

that depends on the individual scientist

[the_real_jazzroc]

you seem now to be admitting they have admitted to spraying us
Stop confabulating three separate things:
1) Passenger planes putting a million tons of ice into the stratosphere each day.
2) Small bursts of aerosols for cloud-seeding, pesticides, insecticides, and radar-imaging
3) Small bursts of chaff (aluminized tinsel) for aircraft defense

its a collection of examples all pointing in the same direction - weather modification, depopulation, military, whatever
Without any evidence it is delusional behaviour that can get you committed.

not talking about it in the mainstream media unless they absolutely have to
I generally despise the media - I believe they've stopped (although they occasionally still make a mistake) because they realise they are as ignorant as you.

same as above, you can single out a point and ridicule it as much as you like, put the whole lot together and something's not quite right is it?
The problem's closer to home. It's you. I think you're right to be worried about the state of the world, but wrong to jump to conclusions on hunches, etc.

deadly serious stuff, you should talk to the victims and families.
Their conditions may be serious, but it's you that cannot be. They are not you. Their being ill doesn't give them or you scientific understanding either.

spraying the skies, and therefore the air everyone breathes. you keep putting words in my mouth
Try these: "I shall read what JazzRoc has written, then go to a library and study atmospheric science and the true causes of skin and lung diseases."

what are you on about? and yeah, scientists have been keeping us in the dark about tons of stuff for a long time.
You'd be surprised what you will find in a good library!

my distance judgement is fine, as is my knowledge of local flight paths.
Well get a job in Air Traffic Control. Be useful.

In my experience, such claims precede examples of the most god-awful bad judgement.

what a ridiculous question
What a ridiculous statement.

no hypocrisy at all, thats exactly how I feel. you've said nothing that's making me think they are not spraying the skies, quite the opposite.
The ONLY visible change in the skies is the amount of ice dumped daily into the stratosphere. That's a million tons now, compared with 100,000 tons in the sixties. It amounts to a 0.09% change in the Earth's atmosphere (solely with respect to atmospheric dimming).

repeated Bollocks becomes tedious, and obvious.
You're darn tootin'.

It would never cross my mind to spend so much time on a forum I disagree with, I guess your really here because you care about us and want to help us right?
Correct again.

that depends on the individual scientist
Well, I suppose it would, initially.

It would be interesting to see if he ever got another job!

[cruise4]

What are these?
http://www.rense.com/general81/ddthr.htm

And what about the patents for weather modification?

http://www.weathermod.com

http://www.weathermodification.org

http://www.nawcinc.com

http://wtwma.com

http://www.wmo.int/pages/prog/arep/index_en.html

http://www.wmo.int/pages/prog/arep/wwrp/new/weathermod_new.html

http://www.wmo.int/pages/prog/arep/wwrp/new/documents/WM_statement_guidelines_approved.pdf

And China modifying weather for the Olympics?

[cruise4]

How do you know they aren't spraying us with harmful substances?

[21_12_2012]

The problem's closer to home. It's you. I think you're right to be worried about the state of the world, but wrong to jump to conclusions on hunches, etc.

It's called 'intuition', and it's a very valuable ally in deceitful times such as
these.

You should try using it sometime.

[maxuk]

I was watching TJ Hooker circa 1982 and as Shatners slim-line stunt double was climbing up to the roof, there were 2 persistant trails in the usual X pattern.

I'm not saying they aren't a problem - it seems to be going crazy these days up there.

Even IF there isn't a planned chemtrail op in progress, what about the crap they DO spew out in the exhaust? Do the water/ice particles give a visual medium to the flow of pollution?

I noticed all this going on when I used to be woken up in the early 2000's by planes flying overhead during the summer mornings, I'd have to get out of bed and shut the windows. Soon I started to make a mental link between people feeling ill at work and the periods of increased air traffic.

I looked it up on the net to see if anyone else had made any similar conclusions....which led to chemtrails.

Whatever they are, they annoy the hell out of me!

Nobody - especially in sun starved Britain during the summer months, likes to see a lovely blue clear sky decimated by 100's of planes leaving thick white trails that coalesce into a milky mist, blotting out the sun.

Max

[marpat]

How do you know they aren't spraying us with harmful substances?


Well prove they are!!you don't know anything apart from some vids on youtube which anybody could make. There is not a single vid on youtube regading chemtrails that could not be faked in order to bolster belief in the theory.

I challenged people in another thread to gather water from stream and pools after the areas had been subjected to 'chemtrails'. All they have to do then is label the samples and test them by some means then they have evidence. I wonder how many people have even bothered to try this? few probably because it means getting off their asses and doing some real physical research which might actually prove their beliefs false.

I think it is time for people to put their money where their mouths are.

People quote depopulation as a reason but the population is growing fast. The elite must be immune to the sprays I guess!!!!!

[largejack]

Why don't you get off your arse and test the water then if you want to prove your theories!!?

[beldazar]

exactly max! Why should we be deprived of fresh sunshine eh? Surely muppet and his cronies should be arguing against that if they think they are some kind of magical 'contrail' that sticks in the sky :rolleyes:

[marpat]

Why don't you get off your arse and test the water then if you want to prove your theories!!?


Because I am not the one trying to prove their are chemtrails. You read my original idea so have you done anything towards gathering evidence? I reckon you haven't because you just want to keep believing no matter what the evidence says.

You have been programmed into a state in which you believe everything is a trap to keep you repressed, which makes you feel important. Yes, people get hooked on all of these massively elaborate plans designed to target them and it makes them feel as if they are something, not just Joe average with a boring life. People who believe their freedoms are being taken from right under their noses and who believe that they and their families are being subjected to all sorts of poisons do not sit talking about it on a forum but get out their and fight against the oppressor. I see a lot of talkers but no fighters.

[beldazar]

no, we leave the fighting to brain-dead marines :rolleyes:

[marpat]

I was watching TJ Hooker circa 1982 and as Shatners slim-line stunt double was climbing up to the roof, there were 2 persistant trails in the usual X pattern.

I'm not saying they aren't a problem - it seems to be going crazy these days up there.

Even IF there isn't a planned chemtrail op in progress, what about the crap they DO spew out in the exhaust? Do the water/ice particles give a visual medium to the flow of pollution?

I noticed all this going on when I used to be woken up in the early 2000's by planes flying overhead during the summer mornings, I'd have to get out of bed and shut the windows. Soon I started to make a mental link between people feeling ill at work and the periods of increased air traffic.

I looked it up on the net to see if anyone else had made any similar conclusions....which led to chemtrails.

Whatever they are, they annoy the hell out of me!

Nobody - especially in sun starved Britain during the summer months, likes to see a lovely blue clear sky decimated by 100's of planes leaving thick white trails that coalesce into a milky mist, blotting out the sun.

Max

Fucking hell, you made a mental link. Is that supposed to support a case for chemtrails?????????????????? this is exactly the sort of crap that makes me think people want to believe and are not really interested in facts.

[marpat]

no, we leave the fighting to brain-dead marines :rolleyes:


Well if you won't fight for your freedom then you deserve everything you get. It just means that you are a coward who like to talk about how bad the world is but does nothing to remove that problem. At least marines have the dignity to risk their lives carrying out the duties they have sworn to. That takes a level of courage that you don't have. I suppose the ones that died in WWII were all brain dead too? you disgust me by dishonouring people who have died in conflicts. Would you dishonour your own relatives that have fought in wars?

[beldazar]

you dont half speak crap marpet, do some research for a change! :rolleyes:

[marpat]

you dont half speak crap marpet, do some research for a change! :rolleyes:

Research? you have done no real research as all you can pull up are youtube vids and pro-conspiracy websites. All you do is parrot other peoples ideas. I prefer facts and like to question things, unike yourself who prefers just to believe. You still gonna hide like a coward while the world gets taken over?????

[beldazar]

and what are you doing here on a errr......pro-conspiracy site? Oh! Exposing yourself :D

[marpat]

and what are you doing here on a errr......pro-conspiracy site? Oh! Exposing yourself :D

I think some of them are interesting, but that does not mean that I will believe them without any good reason, unlike yourself. My belief does not come as cheap as your I guess.

I didn't realise these forums were for believers only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I suppose that means you will get lots of support for your delusions and not have to answer any difficult questions regarding facts and proof. It must be nice to live in a niave little world.

[beldazar]

oh here we go again....prove to me the world is round then :rolleyes:

[krakhead]

I was always undecided about chemtrails, I have to say that having read and watched a lot of information from both sides of the argument I have to come down on the side of contrails.

This morning I saw them form in abundance, then watched them disappear as the weather changed, then no further trails were created thourghout the day, despite lots of planes.

I'd not go as far as saying that there never have been, never are or never will be trails sprayed by governmental agencies for the purpose of spreading chemical agents to a mass population, but I really don't think they are done on any sort of a regular basis.

[marpat]

oh here we go again....prove to me the world is round then :rolleyes:

Personally I don't care what people believe. It is when they start telling people that they are right and we should wake up that bugs me. They become like those tedious born again christians, people who are always right (in their own mind) and who love to tell us all we are wrong.

The fact is that until people have physical evidence that cannot be discarded then you are in the realm of belief. In this place though it seems to questions the BELIEFS of conspiracy theories is just not acceptable.The main reason is that it upsets peoples sense of balance if their beliefs are questioned. If you spend 5 years reading up on chemtrails then something pops up that strongly suggests that it is a hoax theory invented to make money for people who sell those books then you are not going to feel very good. People would rather deny such things than face the possibility that they have been duped. As can be seen in this forum to argue that these ideas are false invites attacks from believers, not people who have proof. The same modus operandi occurs in all cults where belief is essential to the group unity and the individual sense of belonging and where facts that contradict belief are aggressively shunned.

[beldazar]

my point is that people are always asking for proof when 'proof' could mean anything.
There is such a lot we take for being 'proof' when at the end of the day, its just somebody elses mix of numerals and letters strung together

I use the world being round as something most of us take in good faith but nobody really knows for sure as they cannot hold it in their hands and feel that it is round

And as for you saying that people are in it for the money, what a load of crap!

You seem to be one of these people who give the impression you think you are right, I couldnt give a monkeys toss what you believe, I haven t tried to make you think anything, its you who came on here disputing the thread!

[marpat]

my point is that people are always asking for proof when 'proof' could mean anything.
There is such a lot we take for being 'proof' when at the end of the day, its just somebody elses mix of numerals and letters strung together

I use the world being round as something most of us take in good faith but nobody really knows for sure as they cannot hold it in their hands and feel that it is round

And as for you saying that people are in it for the money, what a load of crap!

You seem to be one of these people who give the impression you think you are right, I couldnt give a monkeys toss what you believe, I haven t tried to make you think anything, its you who came on here disputing the thread!

You have just proved that I was right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cool:

Did I not say that people will aggresively shun things which they feel impacts upon their sense of belief, which they need for their own balance?

Is dispute wrong? we are here to question NOT BELIEVE. Belief leads to blindness and manipulation whereas questions lead towards truth. Choose your path :cool:

[the_real_jazzroc]

my point is that people are always asking for proof when 'proof' could mean anything.
NO. PROOF always means specifically ONE THING.

There is such a lot we take for being 'proof' when at the end of the day, it's just somebody else's mix of numerals and letters strung together.
NO. We take as proof "somebody else's mix of numerals and letters strung together" when they have professionally undertaken to discover this on our behalf, subject to a rigorous check. This proof, by following the instructions the scientist must provide us, we may verify for ourself.

I use the world being round as something most of us take in good faith but nobody really knows for sure as they cannot hold it in their hands and feel that it is round.
1. You can SEE a ship's mast above the horizon before you see the ship's hull.
2. The Earth throws a circular shadow on the Moon.
3. You can measure the differing angles of the Sun on a North/South line and calculate the Earth's diameter.
4. Sighting across a large lake you can see the divergence of verticals and the "fall" of level and calculate Earth's diameter.
5. Pictures of the Earth from the Moon show it to be a sphere.
There are many other examples (one of these was used by the Greeks 3000 years ago) that should help you KNOW this for SURE.
The whole purpose of science is to EXTEND our knowledge: you are merely stating your disbelief in science.

And as for you saying that people are in it for the money, what a load of crap!
Hmm. Buy some ORGONE snake oil. All of you have a psychological and emotional investment which a cynic could make a FORTUNE from. What am I saying? They are....

You seem to be one of these people who give the impression you think you are right, I couldn't give a monkeys toss what you believe, I haven't tried to make you think anything, its you who came on here disputing the thread!
BUNKUM is a disputatious subject....

Whoops! Sorry, Marpat.

[bardofely]

Personally I don't care what people believe. It is when they start telling people that they are right and we should wake up that bugs me. They become like those tedious born again christians, people who are always right (in their own mind) and who love to tell us all we are wrong.

The fact is that until people have physical evidence that cannot be discarded then you are in the realm of belief. In this place though it seems to questions the BELIEFS of conspiracy theories is just not acceptable.The main reason is that it upsets peoples sense of balance if their beliefs are questioned. If you spend 5 years reading up on chemtrails then something pops up that strongly suggests that it is a hoax theory invented to make money for people who sell those books then you are not going to feel very good. People would rather deny such things than face the possibility that they have been duped. As can be seen in this forum to argue that these ideas are false invites attacks from believers, not people who have proof. The same modus operandi occurs in all cults where belief is essential to the group unity and the individual sense of belonging and where facts that contradict belief are aggressively shunned.

I would add to that that this forum is the David Icke forum and part of the message he gives is, as I understand him, to come to your own conclusions from the info and experience you have. David points out that his work and beliefs are based on where his search has taken him and what he has concluded from it all. My main point in this thread was to share my conclusions about the unreality of chemtrails after nearly a decade of belief in them. To reach my new understanding I had to break down my rigid belief system that basically said all conspiracy theorists and chemtrail believers are on the right track and that officials and scientific types are lying and are actually proof of the conspiracy. They are not! I had tricked myself into thinking I was well researched but I wasn't because I was only listening to a one-sided argument and was blanking some things I knew so as to fit with the chemtrail belief eg I had always known that moon halos are caused by ice but I was not acknowledging that this was the case with the sun too. I was very much as Marpat says "in the realm of belief" but not realising it!

[shellygurrrl]

It is a fact that some have admitted to spraying unknowing populations. This is indisputable. Now, whether that truly accounts for the thousands of spottings of chemtrails is clearly unknown. We'll probably never know the EXTENT it occurs, or the damage to people and the environment, but is DOES occur.

The most popular recent case is in California:


The state agriculture department plans to use airplanes at night this summer to spray a farm pesticide over urban San Francisco, Marin County and the East Bay, intending to eradicate a potentially destructive moth.

The little-known proposal to wipe out the light brown apple moth, which if it became established could destroy the region's agricultural industry, has developed increasing opposition among some residents who fear for their health.

Hundreds of people whose homes and yards were sprayed in Santa Cruz and Monterey counties from September to December have filed reports that said the pesticide seems to have caused coughing, wheezing, muscle aches and headaches, among other symptoms. One Monterey family reported that a child had a first-time asthma attack.

State officials say the amount of pesticide applied shouldn't pose severe health risks, but they've also refused to rule out that the spray can affect humans, particularly sensitive people such as children and the elderly.

Spraying of the pesticide, called Checkmate, is expected to begin in the Bay Area in August and could continue for five years over San Francisco, Daly City, Colma, Oakland, Piedmont, Emeryville, El Cerrito, El Sobrante, Tiburon and Belvedere. Other chemicals could also be used.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/15/MN99V2PMN.DTL

Other examples of proved chemical spraying of citizens:

http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?s=1250476

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/01/2232311.htm

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/14/newagent-orange050614.html

http://www.citizenscampaign.org/campaigns/westnilevirus.htm

Those are just a few cases. I don't have time to write a research paper on it. I don't claim to know how much this is done or what chemtrails can be attributed to what (I believe a lot of it is weather manipulation). But it definitely sometimes is chemicals being sprayed on unknowing citizens!

[bardofely]

It is a fact that some have admitted to spraying unknowing populations. This is indisputable. Now, whether that truly accounts for the thousands of spottings of chemtrails is clearly unknown. We'll probably never know the EXTENT it occurs, or the damage to people and the environment, but is DOES occur.

The most popular recent case is in California:



http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/15/MN99V2PMN.DTL

Other examples of proved chemical spraying of citizens:

http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?s=1250476

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/01/2232311.htm

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/14/newagent-orange050614.html

http://www.citizenscampaign.org/campaigns/westnilevirus.htm

Those are just a few cases. I don't have time to write a research paper on it. I don't claim to know how much this is done or what chemtrails can be attributed to what (I believe a lot of it is weather manipulation). But it definitely sometimes is chemicals being sprayed on unknowing citizens!

Last I heard (without checking for any update) the California Bay area spraying have been stopped. The other cases and this are isolated incidents of pesticide sprays, which wrong as they are and were, has nothing to do with the widespread trails and cloud cover, apart from being used as evidence to support the chemtrail belief system. Pesticide sprays are low level because they have to be to hit their targets below unlike what are called chemtrails that are very high above.

I have seen loads of what people are calling chemtrails, and I believed they were until recently. I have written on the subject and got published in a newspaper, and I have taken lots of photos as evidence of chemtrails, but it is now very clear to me that what I was seeing and calling chemtrails were nothing more than persistent contrails and fake cirrus cloud resulting from them. And all that whiteness and haziness was nothing more than ice crystals. I am referring to what I had witnessed in Wales and here in Tenerife. I see countless photos and videos that show the same atmospheric phenomena and I see people saying these are chemtrails. So I can only conclude that what are being labelled as such are no different to what I have seen and are equally harmless. To the degree that if I say show me a chemtrail someone would produce an image or video of contrails! It is a system of misidentification and labelling as something I see no evidence for apart from as a concept.

Chemtrail belief is almost like a new religion and its believers cannot see past the belief they hold. I know that because I was such a person!

Now I can go out and if I see some trails crisscrossing or making a mess of the blue sky I no longer have to think, chemtrails - how terrible and what a danger! I can now think, contrails - what a pity they mess up the beauty of the sky and what a great shame it is that people are worried about them!

I have a now redundant T-shirt that says STOP CHEMTRAILS but really it should read STOP CONTRAILS, and it's not going to happen as long as we have planes in the sky. So maybe it should be STOP ALL FLIGHTS and STOP PLANES?

[beldazar]

nice reply marpat, I havent demanded proof either way as I know how foolish that would be, I see with my eyes and feel what is right....for ME

jazzy, a good vid for you to watch would be the holographic universe by michael talbot

[the_real_jazzroc]

nice reply marpat, I havent demanded proof either way as I know how foolish that would be, I see with my eyes and feel what is right....for ME
Formulate your misconceptions as you like... it's your externalizing them I object to. Especially with the slander and libel, and the general misdirection involved.

jazzy, a good vid for you to watch would be the holographic universe by michael talbot
If it's on YT or Gg I'll find it. Generally I've seen these sorts of things.

[marpat]

nice reply marpat, I havent demanded proof either way as I know how foolish that would be, I see with my eyes and feel what is right....for ME

jazzy, a good vid for you to watch would be the holographic universe by michael talbot

The justification of so many criminals. I bet Hitler felt he was right to gas Jews.

[beldazar]

you are just showing your ignorance again,

You obviously arent a truthseeker WHATSOEVER, so....WHY ARE YOU HERE?

Be careful Marpat, you are exposing yourself, watch it or your pay will get suspended

[shellygurrrl]

Last I heard (without checking for any update) the California Bay area spraying have been stopped. The other cases and this are isolated incidents of pesticide sprays, which wrong as they are and were, has nothing to do with the widespread trails and cloud cover, apart from being used as evidence to support the chemtrail belief system. Pesticide sprays are low level because they have to be to hit their targets below unlike what are called chemtrails that are very high above.

I have seen loads of what people are calling chemtrails, and I believed they were until recently. I have written on the subject and got published in a newspaper, and I have taken lots of photos as evidence of chemtrails, but it is now very clear to me that what I was seeing and calling chemtrails were nothing more than persistent contrails and fake cirrus cloud resulting from them. And all that whiteness and haziness was nothing more than ice crystals. I am referring to what I had witnessed in Wales and here in Tenerife. I see countless photos and videos that show the same atmospheric phenomena and I see people saying these are chemtrails. So I can only conclude that what are being labelled as such are no different to what I have seen and are equally harmless. To the degree that if I say show me a chemtrail someone would produce an image or video of contrails! It is a system of misidentification and labelling as something I see no evidence for apart from as a concept.

Chemtrail belief is almost like a new religion and its believers cannot see past the belief they hold. I know that because I was such a person!

Now I can go out and if I see some trails crisscrossing or making a mess of the blue sky I no longer have to think, chemtrails - how terrible and what a danger! I can now think, contrails - what a pity they mess up the beauty of the sky and what a great shame it is that people are worried about them!

I have a now redundant T-shirt that says STOP CHEMTRAILS but really it should read STOP CONTRAILS, and it's not going to happen as long as we have planes in the sky. So maybe it should be STOP ALL FLIGHTS and STOP PLANES?

The purpose of my post with reference links were to demonstrate that spraying chemicals on populations HAS been done. The proof of that is clear. There is no way to know (until we start to see admissions of guilt, which if anything, are decades away) if these pesticides are used in the higher altitudes - or similar substances for other black ops purposes.

And what about cloud seeding, weather manipulation? This exists also. A main component of weather control is silver iodide. Silver iodide has been shown to be harmful in humans, and is easily absorbed through the skin and lungs. The Office of Environment, Health and Safety, UC Berkeley, rates silver iodide as a Class C, non-soluble, inorganic, hazardous chemical that pollutes water and soil. Extreme toxicity leads to death.

http://www.nature.nps.gov/hazardssafety/toxic//silver.pdf

The bottom line is, there is no definitive proof chemtrails are sinister dangers or that they are perfectly safe and explainable. It boils down to how you discern the information, what your intuitions tell you about it.

[marpat]

you are just showing your ignorance again,

You obviously arent a truthseeker WHATSOEVER, so....WHY ARE YOU HERE?

Be careful Marpat, you are exposing yourself, watch it or your pay will get suspended

What planet are you no today? bit of a dictator aren't you?

Why am I here? to debate issues, not BELIEVE in them. I don't need to believe in a vast conspiracy against me to feel like my life has meaning. And may I ask who do you think you are to question my presence. You do not OWN this forum, you are just another USER.

Is truthseeker the new label for those who believe that something is true when enough people believe in an idea? if so then I am not one.

I love it when people try things like 'you are exposing yourself'. It's a really childish, retarded method of trying to incite paranoia. To say I am exposing myself would imply that you know who I am and that I was acting in a way that makes me vulnerable. You are foolish to suggest you know anything.

You are ignorant because you cannot prove what you are stating. You claim all these physical things are happening to us all, all the time, but give no physical proof.

You are a typical conspiracy theorist. As soon as you cannot bend somebody to your way of thinking you call them ignorant. The government uses labels in the same way to brand people who don't agree with them, common labels being racist, homophobe, sexist, etc.

I have said many times that you can believe what you want but don' try and push it as if you know the truth because until you can prove it you don't know anything, and that makes you IGNORANT, LACKING IN KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH.

[chattanova]

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=4x8-2TAHXfU

Filmed from above, suspicious structure ? :rolleyes:

[the_real_jazzroc]

Filmed from above, suspicious structure?
There are no spraying aeroplanes.

It's a stable atmospheric phenomenon. The clouds are in the troposphere and their shape is being maintained by a ground ridge or standing wave.

Spray clouds would show divergence and dispersal by wave vortex turbulation, as in contrails.

These clouds aren't dispersing at all.

[chattanova]

There are no spraying aeroplanes.

It's a stable atmospheric phenomenon. The clouds are in the troposphere and their shape is being maintained by a ground ridge or standing wave.

Spray clouds would show divergence and dispersal by wave vortex turbulation, as in contrails.

These clouds aren't dispersing at all.

I'm just thinking..(and please don't twist on that;)) ..that how can you know that the government isn't spraying, and uses just what you are telling us as a cover up/excuse?
I know you are very into this subject and I'm not denying what you say, but still that doesn't really mean they could not be 'spraying' us can it?
This could be their very method..

[truthseeker1980]

Well said I was just about to ask the exact same question.

Jazzroc and the other aliases, who only post about chemtrails, probably the same person.

How can you be so sure there are no such planes? What proof do you have other than the old they are just contrail's theory, again that wouldn't be proof that theses planes dont exist, that's just the SCIENCE i learnt whilst i was at school and the SCIENCE which i know and understand? Which is why i know the differnce.

The only way you could prove that there are no suh planes, is if you had seen every single aeroplane in the world.

It seems very odd that you are so passionate about the fact that there are no such planes and that chemtrails are just the normal contrails. You give off all the signals of someone who has been paid to come on here and seed dis-info.

You deviate from proof and even admit that cloud seeding happens, that chaff is ok, coz it's only tinsel and that crop spraying has happened for years, what the fuck does that have to do with chemtrails? you seem to throw more things into the equation to try and confuse more people and make us think that what we are seeing with OUR OWN EYES isn't happening.

I have eyes and a memory, so do most of the people on this site, which is why we come on here.

Can I ask why you are so against the idea that these chemtrails are chemtrails?

What reason do you have for defending them? Why do you not actually get some real proof instead of throwing crap usually quite rudley back, into the discussion?

[beldazar]

excellent post truthseeker!

[chattanova]

Well said I was just about to ask the exact same question.

Jazzroc and the other aliases, who only post about chemtrails, probably the same person.

How can you be so sure there are no such planes? What proof do you have other than the old they are just contrail's theory, again that wouldn't be proof that theses planes dont exist, that's just the SCIENCE i learnt whilst i was at school and the SCIENCE which i know and understand? Which is why i know the differnce.

The only way you could prove that there are no suh planes, is if you had seen every single aeroplane in the world.

It seems very odd that you are so passionate about the fact that there are no such planes and that chemtrails are just the normal contrails. You give off all the signals of someone who has been paid to come on here and seed dis-info.

You deviate from proof and even admit that cloud seeding happens, that chaff is ok, coz it's only tinsel and that crop spraying has happened for years, what the fuck does that have to do with chemtrails? you seem to throw more things into the equation to try and confuse more people and make us think that what we are seeing with OUR OWN EYES isn't happening.

I have eyes and a memory, so do most of the people on this site, which is why we come on here.

Can I ask why you are so against the idea that these chemtrails are chemtrails?

What reason do you have for defending them? Why do you not actually get some real proof instead of throwing crap usually quite rudley back, into the discussion?

Exactly. They have the ability to spray us if they want; and get away with it, due to people like jazzroc.

I for sure don't know if they are chemtrailing us but neither do jazzroc.

[logic bomb]

Of course they do 'experimental' spraying on the populace as well as so called 'weather experiments'.. jazzroc is just doing his job as a debunker..


Germ war cloud floated over shire counties

Area from Yeovil to Guildford secretly sprayed in 1950s as Porton Down tried to counter feared Soviet biological attack in cold war.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/1999/nov/02/freedomofinformation.politics#article_continue

The names of a string of towns and villages from Yeovil to Guildford which were secretly sprayed in large-scale germ warfare experiments in the 1950s can today be revealed in newly released documents.

Wiltshire, Hampshire, Berkshire, Dorset, Somerset and Surrey were the main areas for the trials conducted from the chemical and biological warfare establishment at Porton Down, Wiltshire. The trials are now the subject of an official inquiry by an independent scientist.

The ministry of defence has conceded that the chemical spray could have been harmful and agreed earlier this year to set up the inquiry to establish whether the trials caused any illnesses among the public.

It will be the second inquiry into the panoply of trials during which the chemical spray and bacteria were covertly dispersed over huge swathes of Britain during the cold war.

Scientists from Porton Down sought to determine how vulnerable Britain was to biological attack and to find ways of protecting the country.

Matthew Taylor, the Liberal Democrat MP for Truro and St Austell, said yesterday: "It is astounding that the government could expose British people, who knew nothing for decades, to possible harm in these trials. It is ironic that this was done in the cause of defending the country. It was as if whole chunks of the country had been turned into an experimental laboratory."

Porton is also being investigated by police over its gas chamber experiments on human "guinea pigs" and the death of a young serviceman in a nerve gas test.

The new batch of documents - released to Mr Taylor by Porton - detail how the scientists began the trials in 1953. They were worried that the Russians could disseminate a cloud of deadly germs over massive tracts of Britain from a ship or plane.

[krakhead]

The only way you could prove that there are no suh planes, is if you had seen every single aeroplane in the world.

Conversely, the only way YOU can prove there ARE such planes is to see every plane in the world!

It seems very odd that you are so passionate about the fact that there are no such planes and that chemtrails are just the normal contrails. You give off all the signals of someone who has been paid to come on here and seed dis-info.

Why? Because he's disagreed with you he's a disinfo agent?! FFS! Isn't the world big enough for people to have differing views without being labelled a government agent?

You deviate from proof and even admit that cloud seeding happens, that chaff is ok, coz it's only tinsel and that crop spraying has happened for years, what the fuck does that have to do with chemtrails? you seem to throw more things into the equation to try and confuse more people and make us think that what we are seeing with OUR OWN EYES isn't happening.

Going from what a lot of people right across the UK saw in the last couple of days appeared to be very much related to the weather conditions. Monday morning - LOADS of trails reported, yesterday morning no new reports and I was certainly struck by the fact that, despite lots of planes visible, NO trails were evident (in the South Wales area - I obviously can't talk about the whole country, but neither can anyone else!). Just because you see something and apply the restrictions of your reality tunnel to it, doesn't make it FACT

I have eyes and a memory, so do most of the people on this site, which is why we come on here.

Can I ask why you are so against the idea that these chemtrails are chemtrails?

What reason do you have for defending them? Why do you not actually get some real proof instead of throwing crap usually quite rudley back, into the discussion?

Why can't he? Have you actually read any of the information he links to (one page he had put together turned into a 140-odd page Word document, which covers chem/contrail from LOTS of angles). He makes a convincing argument!

And there are plenty of members who, pretty much, only post about one topic!

Although I do agree he comes across as rude/arrogant, he needs to take tips from bardofely in putting his point across I feel! ;)

[marpat]

Of course they do 'experimental' spraying on the populace as well as so called 'weather experiments'.. jazzroc is just doing his job as a debunker..


Germ war cloud floated over shire counties

Area from Yeovil to Guildford secretly sprayed in 1950s as Porton Down tried to counter feared Soviet biological attack in cold war.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/1999/nov/02/freedomofinformation.politics#article_continue

The names of a string of towns and villages from Yeovil to Guildford which were secretly sprayed in large-scale germ warfare experiments in the 1950s can today be revealed in newly released documents.

Wiltshire, Hampshire, Berkshire, Dorset, Somerset and Surrey were the main areas for the trials conducted from the chemical and biological warfare establishment at Porton Down, Wiltshire. The trials are now the subject of an official inquiry by an independent scientist.

The ministry of defence has conceded that the chemical spray could have been harmful and agreed earlier this year to set up the inquiry to establish whether the trials caused any illnesses among the public.

It will be the second inquiry into the panoply of trials during which the chemical spray and bacteria were covertly dispersed over huge swathes of Britain during the cold war.

Scientists from Porton Down sought to determine how vulnerable Britain was to biological attack and to find ways of protecting the country.

Matthew Taylor, the Liberal Democrat MP for Truro and St Austell, said yesterday: "It is astounding that the government could expose British people, who knew nothing for decades, to possible harm in these trials. It is ironic that this was done in the cause of defending the country. It was as if whole chunks of the country had been turned into an experimental laboratory."

Porton is also being investigated by police over its gas chamber experiments on human "guinea pigs" and the death of a young serviceman in a nerve gas test.

The new batch of documents - released to Mr Taylor by Porton - detail how the scientists began the trials in 1953. They were worried that the Russians could disseminate a cloud of deadly germs over massive tracts of Britain from a ship or plane.

This is nothing new. I covered this stuff in an earlier chemtrail thread, not sure if it is this one, and I can't be assed to do it all again for the sake of people who prefer to believe.

[bardofely]

This is nothing new. I covered this stuff in an earlier chemtrail thread, not sure if it is this one, and I can't be assed to do it all again for the sake of people who prefer to believe.

Thanks for posting, Marpat! Indeed, it is old ground as is so much of what comes up in chemtrail discussions. But if you enter any new conclusions or additional scientific data from outside the chemtrail believer box it gets either rejected, not read, or the poster gets called a debunker or all three conditions apply! I don't blame you for not doing it all again!

[truthseeker1980]

How does the answer, "this is nothing new", prove that they are not spraying stuff in the sky?

Do you two think we on here are stupid? Because most are quite intelligent which is why they are so inquisitive, we are all open minded too, unlike both of you.

We all come from times when there were not these trails in the sky, you may want to come back on here when the children being born now are researching all that is not right about the world, as they will have ony ever seen chemtrails not the real contrails which i saw as i grew up and would be easy to fool, but myself and most on here are not going to be so easy to win round, when we have eyes and a memory.

If it's nothing new, then it will still happen now and continue to happen. Hence CHEMTRAILS!!!!!

How did they get the germ cloud into the sky?
By spraying something in the sky!

How do they seed clouds?
By spraying something in the sky!

How do they get metallic particles in the sky for Chaff?
By spraying something in the sky!

How did the barium particles get in the sky?
By spraying something in the sky!

You, Jazzroc and the other bloke contradict over and over.

[bardofely]

How does the answer, "this is nothing new", prove that they are not spraying stuff in the sky?

IT DOESN'T BUT IT IS OLD MATERIAL!

If it's nothing new, then it will still happen now and continue to happen. Hence CHEMTRAILS!!!!!

YES, IT WILL CONTINUE UNTIL THE SKIES RETURN TO WHAT THEY WERE LIKE BEFORE! HENCE CONTRAILS!!!!

How did they get the germ cloud into the sky?
By spraying something in the sky!

How do they seed clouds?
By spraying something in the sky!

How do they get metallic particles in the sky for Chaff?
By spraying something in the sky!

THEY PUT THEM THERE!

How did the barium particles get in the sky?
By spraying something in the sky!

THESE ARE ALL SMALL LOCALISED OPERATIONS, NOT WORLDWIDE MASSIVE ONGOING ONES AS IS BELIEVED!



You, Jazzroc and the other bloke contradict over and over. WHERE?

My reply above in CAPS!

[truthseeker1980]

I give up, again you are one minute saying they dont spray anything then you say oh yeah they do but only small localised spraying.

In what way can you prove that the chemtrails we see are not the small localised spraying as you say?

You cant, so both of your arguments hold no wait and are designed only to confuse us inquisitive people on here.

[largejack]

I give up, again you are one minute saying they dont spray anything then you say oh yeah they do but only small localised spraying.

In what way can you prove that the chemtrails we see are not the small localised spraying as you say?

You cant, so both of your arguments hold no wait and are designed only to confuse us inquisitive people on here.


Well said Truthseeker

[graflok]

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/2451/crocuk2.jpg
"Don't be afraid, little girl. I'm just an ice crystal."

[beldazar]

R.o.fl. :d

[lemonique]

These agents have a very sophisticated methodology of disinfo that they employ.
Ever heard of badjacketing/snitch jacketing?

There's a saying " In war, the only form of truth is denial"


Just my 2 bobs worth


Have a great week-end everyone

Lem

[bardofely]

I give up, again you are one minute saying they dont spray anything then you say oh yeah they do but only small localised spraying.

In what way can you prove that the chemtrails we see are not the small localised spraying as you say?

You cant, so both of your arguments hold no wait and are designed only to confuse us inquisitive people on here.

You are unable to understand or accept whatever I say it seems so there is very little point in my responding to your posts but I will try again to explain my logic:

If the white trails I have seen loads of times and look just like those in videos and photos of alleged chemtrails are what make the cloud cover that causes halos, which I have seen happen, then it is logical to suppose they are all like this is it not? And when I say "all" I mean the majority, over 90% that sort of thing! If the trails that cause the cloud that cause the halos are harmless then what is the point of all the videos and photos of more of these trails and more of this fake cirrus cloud as evidence of "chemtrails?" I would say, none, apart from spreading the belief in chemtrails, which many people say they are worried about and made ill by. Personally I cannot see what is good about a system of belief that makes people scared, worried and ill but if that's what people want well good luck to them but they can count me out! I would have thought such a system would be fully approved by the elite, however, who like plenty of ill and scared people - do they not?

I am not saying it is impossible for "chemtrails" (sprays with chemicals in them) to be made but what I am saying is that what are reported daily as chemtrails are contrails and therefore the panic over the whole subject that suggests the entire world is being "sprayed" and is in danger is based in falsehood and is alarming people unnecessarily.

It is clear to me that the majority here are chemtrail-believers who hold to the belief as strongly as a member of any organised religion and therefore I am wasting my time attempting to explain when whatever I say you have already decided is wrong because it is not part of your belief.

[graflok]

It is clear to me that the majority here are chemtrail-believers who hold to the belief as strongly as a member of any organised religion and therefore I am wasting my time attempting to explain when whatever I say you have already decided is wrong because it is not part of your belief.

OK, thanks for stopping by and sharing your logic with us. Bye. :)

[beldazar]

yeah byeeee! The last thing I want is someone to try to shove a belief down my throat.

I can make up my own mind thanks :D

[largejack]

Me too and the persisting lines in the sky are not contrails so yes goodbye. :D

[shellygurrrl]

Another article here (http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL1760049120080617?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true) here which demonstrates Russia regularly sprays silver iodide on its citizens in weather control. Silver iodide is toxic. I talked about this and linked to it in an earlier post.

But I suppose this is as safe as having thimerosol in vaccines and mercury fillings and fluoride in water! Nothing to see here, everything is fine, move along...

[cruise4]

These are weird. Plane fly-by of chemtrails.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8teaUuU26c

[skyline]

Chemtrails are as real as 911.I have spent the past few years observing the patterns sprayed and on a number of occasions witnessed chess board patterns left and seen the plane stop spraying.Now the only other time that happens is at an airshow with the red arrows display team does their thing.I have also flown through a huge pattern of trails on my way into LAX and when you are up close and personal you can see the twirl pattern

I pity anyone who doesnt believe in this conspiracy

My only fear is that it is such a common sight sheep wont be able to recall what a contrail looks like.

[none]

...at work today a plane flew overhead with (what appeared to be) a normal relatively short 'con'trail .... I pointed it out to the forklift operator that it looked 'normal' and does he ever see the ones that stretch from horizon to horizon and hang about for ages etc ..... he said he had wondered about them before ..... people who are not 'in on' this conspiricy thing are noticing them too

[niftygifter]

Try this and see the air pollution breakdown analysis.

http://imageevent.com/firesat/strangedaysstrangeskies

Zoom the analysis sheet on there and look at the sample of chemicals within.

A little more than ice crystals I believe:o

There are significant airways throughout Britain and most aircraft are bound, by aviation law to fly along them.
They are also bound by law to fly through them at set altitudes.
A criss cross section of airways above Britain does NOT exist, I have the aviation maps to prove it.
So any patterned section of sky, puts the theory of normal contrails into the bollocks bin.:eek:



Nifty:cool:

[niftygifter]

http://imageevent.com/firesat/strangedaysstrangeskies;jsessionid=sgdop9yje1.zebr a_s?p=10&n=1&m=-1&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=3

Analysis

Speaks for itself doesnt it??


Nifty:cool:

[jmmk]

We have an independent show in our town(Binghamton,NY) called NEWS and BLUES that
comes on once a week to talk about the same things David's books do.
It showed a picture of independent, cone-shaped, wing mounted dispersing
things that looked like engines, closer to the fuselage . The skies over our
area the day before were criss-crossed heavily with chemtrails that lingered
for 10-12 hours or more. These jets were military or sub-contracted civilian
ones. Other commercial ones were observed that same day and their contrails
lasted minutes or 1-2 hours tops.
Here's an eerie passage from 'Sight Unseen"(Budd Hopkins):
In an article from New Scientist-'Smart dust could soon be spying
on you'.A development team from Berkley, California is designing tiny motes
capable of communicating with each other.Only 5 mm long each one is invis-
ible to the eye,but large enough to hold a number of microelectromechanical
systems packed full of lasers, sensors and transceivers. This 'smart dust' is
wired up to form a simple computer. The applications are SCARY!!!

[astro zombie]

Pfft. What the fuck man, why is anyone even arguing with this guy? How the fuck does this get to 12 pages? Chemtrails are harmless! They're just ice crystals! Right.

This is so obviously a dis-info aget or somebody with nothing better to do.

[krakhead]

How the fuck does this get to 12 pages?

13 pages now thanks to you! :p

[astro zombie]

Haha i noticed that! :o A bit ironic, i dunno i just felt the need to say that. Just don't know why people waste their time with stuff like this.

[krakhead]

Haha i noticed that! :o A bit ironic, i dunno i just felt the need to say that. Just don't know why people waste their time with stuff like this.

Personally I think it could be due to people 'awakening' to the fact that they are regularly lied to and manipulated, this certainly led me to latch on to all sorts of bizarre ideas when I first began looking into 'conspiracy theories'. I'd guess some are newly aware, others just never grew out of that phase and into a more 'scientific' approach to these theories.

Shame really, there'd be a lot less arguments on this forum as a whole if people began to accept that their own view may not necessarily be the 'right' one.

One day, three blind men happened to meet each other and gossiped a long
time about many things. Suddenly one of them recalled, “I heard that an
elephant is a queer animal. Too bad we’re blind and can’t see it.”
“Ah, yes, truly too bad we don’t have the good fortune to see the strange ani-
mal,” another one sighed.
The third one, quite annoyed, joined in and said, “See? Forget it! Just to feel it
would be great.”
“Well, that’s true. If only there were some way of touching the elephant, we’d
be able to know,” they all agreed.
It so happened that a merchant with a herd of elephants was passing, and
overheard their conversation. “You fellows, do you really want to feel an
elephant? Then follow me; I will show you,” he said.
The three men were surprised and happy. Taking one another’s hand, they
quickly formed a line and followed while the merchant led the way. Each one
began to contemplate how he would feel the animal, and tried to figure how
he would form an image.
After reaching their destination, the merchant asked them to sit on the ground
to wait. In a few minutes he led the first blind man to feel the elephant. With
outstretched hand, he touched first the left foreleg and then the right. After
that he felt the two legs from the top to the bottom, and with a beaming face,
turned to say, “So, the queer animal is just like that.” Then he slowly returned
to the group
Thereupon the second blind man was led to the rear of the elephant. He
touched the tail which wagged a few times, and he exclaimed with satisfac-
tion, “Ha! Truly a queer animal! Truly odd! I know now. I know.” He hur-
riedly stepped aside.
The third blind man’s turn came, and he touched the elephant’s trunk which
moved back and forth turning and twisting and he thought, “That’s it! I’ve
learned.”
The three blind men thanked the merchant and went their way. Each one was
secretly excited over the experience and had a lot to say, yet all walked rap-
idly without saying a word.
“Let’s sit down and have a discussion about this queer animal,” the second
blind man said, breaking the silence.
“A very good idea. Very good.” the other two agreed for they also had this
in mind. Without waiting for anyone to be properly seated, the second one
blurted out, “This queer animal is like our straw fans swinging back and forth
to give us a breeze. However, it’s not so big or well made. The main portion is
rather wispy.”
“No, no!” the first blind man shouted in disagreement. “This queer animal
resembles two big trees without any branches.”
“You’re both wrong.” the third man replied. “This queer animal is similar to a
snake; it’s long and round, and very strong.”
How they argued! Each one insisted that he alone was correct. Of course,
there was no conclusion for not one had thoroughly examined the whole
elephant. How can anyone describe the whole until he has learned the total of the parts?