Is cooking oil REALLY being used in cars ?

[steevo]

I dont know about you guys but I dont know a single person who uses cooking oil as a fuel in their car. I also dont KNOW a single person who knows anyone who uses cooking oil to power their car.

So maybe we have all been scammed again. It's all just an excuse to put up the price of cooking oil (and food) IMO. I mean, the story about people using chip fat to power their cars was very well publicised on the MAINSTREAM MEDIA afterall :rolleyes:

[meave]

http://biofuel.org.uk/

[grannymoose]

i had a rover 620. M reg. diesel.
for 5 years i ran nothing in it except for vegetable oil from the super market and used oil form the local chip shop. the engine ran and ran, was only the fact some geek hit me up the rear i had to get rid of it.

I currently have a a Peugeot and are doing the same, i haven't bought diesel for over 6 years. make your own minds up :)
diesel engines were originally made to run on nothing but peanut oil in the second world war ;)
only when MOT time was due i would add a bottle of methonal emissions past no problem.

[jimmi]

My mate Phil from Manchester has been converting cars, and eg. range rovers that then run on biofuels, for years. He is producing his own fuel and is almost ready to go commercial so I vouch for bio is genuine.
I have read that Henry Ford used hemp oil to power the first 'model T' as well as using hemp fibre for the bodywork, just another case of suppressed technology!

[kernelpower]

i know someone who happily ran an astra td 1.7 on 80% oil 20% diesel no problem at all did 75k on it in 3 years , then changed jobs now he has a company van with fuel card!

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/fuelsdatabase/database/index.php

[lemonique]

Darryl Hannah is into the environment issues in a big way... watch the video...



http://eco-living.blogspot.com/2006/10/bio-diesel-with-daryl-hannah.html
Eco-Living: Bio-Diesel with Daryl Hannah

Lem

[lumukanda]

they used to use it in rhodesia when they were under sanctions, as some have said, the diesel engine was originally designed to run on other oil, peanut, hemp etc.

[steevo]

Thanks for the replies Jimmi, KernelPower, and GrannyMouse. I agree that the cooking oil CAN power a car and that an extremely tiny minority of people are using it. I just dont think that the practice of using cooking oil in cars is widespread as it's made out to be and that the mainstream media have publicised it purposely to put it in our minds that lots of people are doing it and THAT THOSE PEOPLE have created a situation where the price of cooking oil has had to rise dramatically. (Maybe it also creates divison between people too cos we will start playing the blame game.)

Personally, I think that biofuels are not ethical and should NOT be used in cars simply because it vastly inflates the price of food and we need to get our priorities right. I just dont think that we should go down that road. It's just not necessary. But that's just my opinion.

Water can be used as fuel and has no pollution. That is the way we should be heading but they are fighting us to the death to stop us using it. The "powers that be" probably own the patents for most hydrogen fuel cells and because of this the "law" stops any of us using a car that would cost virtually nothing to run.

I dont see anything good at all about using cooking oil in cars. Less pollution yes, but it's simply not sustainable, end of story. That's just my opinion though :o

[beldazar]

My cousin uses cooking oils to power her car

[catfood]

I used it for a couple of weeks it worked fine. I stopped because it costs nearly as much and is probably not ideal for you engine.

[real6]

i had a rover 620. M reg. diesel.
for 5 years i ran nothing in it except for vegetable oil from the super market and used oil form the local chip shop. the engine ran and ran, was only the fact some geek hit me up the rear i had to get rid of it.

I currently have a a Peugeot and are doing the same, i haven't bought diesel for over 6 years. make your own minds up :)
diesel engines were originally made to run on nothing but peanut oil in the second world war ;)
only when MOT time was due i would add a bottle of methonal emissions past no problem.


But do you have to do anything to the oil? Filter/etc? or you just straight pour it in there?

[kasalt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEX1YFXYTdI

[chrism]

Pollution from biofuel is a moot point - any carbon emissions produced are directly sourced from the carbon absorbed during the production of the fuel, so by definition they are carbon neutral.

Sustainability on the other hand is an important issue, because any land turned over to the production of these fuels naturally reduces the space available for growing food. There needs to be a threefold approach to this:

1. Reduce the need for this type of transportation (improve public transport and the rail network for commercial haulage etc) Where the energy for public transport can be generated centrally and transmitted to the motorised units efficiently (and cheaply) e.g. trams, metro trains or even trolley-buses these should not only replace cars but also remove the pollution to another area, where hopefully it can be treated. My own method of achieving this change is to make all public transport completely free of charge to the users. This has the effect of economically forcing commuters to choose public transport as the cheapest option. I think we should also reduce Car Tax to zero, and instead INCREASE the duty on fuel. This means the more economic the car, the cheaper it is to run. We could also use this increased fuel duty to pay for 3rd party insurance on all cars. Even if this meant we were paying £2.50 per litre for petrol, we would be able to calculate the real cost of driving to work, and weigh this up against free public transport. Road haulage should be reduced as much as possible, while making use of the county's fantastic rail infrastructure, with localised rail freight depots. Again this centralises the energy requirements, and the larger the 'engine' producing the power, the more economically it runs.

2. Improve the efficiency of cars (and their fuels - methanol produced from Hemp is possibly the way forward here, but investigation of other options is vital). Use of water as a fuel (HFC) is a possibility, but at this stage the solar cells are not powerful enough for anything other than very high cost personal transportation, and nowhere near enough for use in logistical movements. Hopefully with the investments we are making in alternative energy we will have the answer in the near future.

3. Reduce human impact on the environment and food requirements (use of organic food will not sustain the population - we need to either find food with greater yields - naturally if possible - or reduce the rate of human population growth).

If we approach all three and investigate and approve those methods which work, we do have a future. If we miss 2 out of the three, we are doomed to failure.

Chrism

[madthumbs]

Willie Nelson uses bio-diesel. There's also a tree that produces diesel with no complicated refinement but unfortunately it would only grow in southern Florida in the US. You can make lamps or even a heater (http://www.opposingdigits.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8148) that runs on this oil also.

[steevo]

Willie Nelson uses bio-diesel. There's also a tree that produces diesel with no complicated refinement but unfortunately it would only grow in southern Florida in the US. You can make lamps or even a heater (http://www.opposingdigits.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8148) that runs on this oil also.

Not sure how the fumes from the candles will effect us though, maybe it would just make our houses smell like a truckers cafe lol Anyway, I might start saving my old oil now so that I can make candles out of them.
Thanks MadThumbs. Some good vids in that link :)

[_invisibleplane_]

I am also very interested in this idea. From what I understand, it is a 2 step process with used cooking oil,

1) eliminate the fat through using an acidic mixture
2) neutralize the acidic base

great site:

www.journeytoforever.org

[madthumbs]

Burning olive oil is different from using it to cook. If pure, it should be odorless. Parafin candles on the other hand emit the same pollution as diesel trucks. Olive oil isn't cheap though.

[cruise4]

I know someone who uses Cooking Oil in their car.

I must admit Chrism you are on the right lines, although I'd argue there is no need for Oil at all. I'm not a fan of public transport particularly because the public are expected to pay for it at some level. I want NO taxes so only the users pay, providing the correct other choices are freely available.

Reduce the need for this type of transport is one major key. Why are people driving all the time? Its because of job location, school location, shop location, etc. etc. In other words its a congestion setup from the civic planning aspect. Screw planning. We'll build what we want, where we want subject only to 'local' and immediately impacted people. That way things will be in the right place, and built with imagination. Screw insurance. Thats your personal risk for being alive. If you want personal insurance... fine. You buy it.

Reduce human impact on the environment. How about addressing the real problem. Remove Criminal Corporate impact on the environment. They are the people that don't care how they turn a buck. Most normal people within a proper and fair free trade system wouldn't be doing any of the things the mega-monopolies are up to. Me throwing away a carton is secondary to the carton being stocked in the supermarket. Lets get to the cause and not just use the term 'human impact'. It implies your average person is responsible when actually they are trapped by criminal conspiracies into an end result.

We really only have one problem. Criminals running everything.

[talkingchimp]

you can use ordinary cooking oil with diesel engines. my mate recommends trying about a 25 percent mix to see how your engine handles it.

[krakhead]

I dont know about you guys but I dont know a single person who uses cooking oil as a fuel in their car. I also dont KNOW a single person who knows anyone who uses cooking oil to power their car.

So maybe we have all been scammed again. It's all just an excuse to put up the price of cooking oil (and food) IMO. I mean, the story about people using chip fat to power their cars was very well publicised on the MAINSTREAM MEDIA afterall :rolleyes:

Guy in work with me runs his camper van on cooking oil, he's got the little set up in his garage and fills out his tax forms like a good boy so no-one can stop him :)

[diamond dogs]

I dont know about you guys but I dont know a single person who uses cooking oil as a fuel in their car. I also dont KNOW a single person who knows anyone who uses cooking oil to power their car.

So maybe we have all been scammed again. It's all just an excuse to put up the price of cooking oil (and food) IMO. I mean, the story about people using chip fat to power their cars was very well publicised on the MAINSTREAM MEDIA afterall :rolleyes:

Tust me it DOES work as I have just brought 81 litres veg oil @95p litre from Lidl (posted yesterday on 'rice' thread).. have a Diesel Peugeot and without any modification or alteration it works absolutely fine as I believe Mr Diesel intended before he was bumped off over the rear of a ship (sound familiar). Was running 50/50 for some time then 60/40 but now 100% if you get close to exhaust it has a mild 'chippy' smell...

The only problem is the cost of veg oil as I posted yesterday Asda 3 litres overnight 2.97 to 3.49...so cleared Lidl shelves......

[cruise4]

Didn't Mr Diesal invent his engine to run off peanut oil but the ptb bought it up, changed a few things and voila... we needed the waste product they wished to sell.

[catfood]

Didn't Mr Diesal invent his engine to run off peanut oil but the ptb bought it up, changed a few things and voila... we needed the waste product they wished to sell.

Well I thought diesel was a waste product of the oil refinery process until someone invented an engine that could run of it

[kblood]

Personally, I think that biofuels are not ethical and should NOT be used in cars simply because it vastly inflates the price of food and we need to get our priorities right. I just dont think that we should go down that road. It's just not necessary. But that's just my opinion.

Water can be used as fuel and has no pollution. That is the way we should be heading but they are fighting us to the death to stop us using it. The "powers that be" probably own the patents for most hydrogen fuel cells and because of this the "law" stops any of us using a car that would cost virtually nothing to run.

I dont see anything good at all about using cooking oil in cars. Less pollution yes, but it's simply not sustainable, end of story. That's just my opinion though :o

Some people just use the cooking oil that is meant to be dumbed anyway as leftover trash. Used oil. Then this frying oil is filtered, maybe some fuel something is added to it to make it better as fuel, and then its ready to go into a car. At least that is what I have heard and read.

If everyone changed to using cooking oil, then yes it would have a huge impact on the prices of produce. Still the EU have had a huge over production for a few years I think, maybe this could help make it usefull, by making it into cooking oil, or biofuel.

Cooking oil is just one of the alternatives that I find better than using regular oil or gas to fuel our ways of travel.

Lets use both dead plants and dead animals to fuel our cars ;) Oil is a biproduct of age old corpses if I am not mistaken.

[diamond dogs]

Didn't Mr Diesal invent his engine to run off peanut oil but the ptb bought it up, changed a few things and voila... we needed the waste product they wished to sell.


The diesel engine has the benefit of running more fuel-efficiently than gasoline engines. Diesel was especially interested in using coal dust or vegetable oil as fuel, his engine in fact ran on peanut oil. Although these fuels were not immediately popular, recent rises in fuel prices coupled with concerns about oil reserves have led to more widespread use of vegetable oil and biodiesel. The primary source of fuel remains what became known as Diesel fuel, an oil byproduct derived from refinement of petroleum


In the evening of 29 September 1913, Diesel boarded the post office steamer Dresden in Antwerp on his way to a meeting of the "Consolidated Diesel Manufacturing Ltd." in London. He took dinner on board the ship and then retired to his cabin at about 10 p.m., leaving word for him to be called the next morning at 6:15 a.m. He was never seen alive again. Ten days later, the crew of the Dutch boat "Coertsen" came upon the corpse of a man floating in the sea. The body was in such a heavy state of decomposition that they did not bring it aboard. Instead, the crew retrieved personal items (pill case, wallet, pocket knife, eyeglass case) from the clothing of the dead man, which on October 13th were identified by Rudolf's son, Eugen Diesel, as belonging to his father.

[cruise4]

Well well well, I didn't know that bit. Another pioneer trying to allow economic free energy to flourish topped, by the sound of it.

[jhado]

Using Spain's vast olive oil crops for fuel might also upset the overall culinary oil market as I have read that Spain is apparently the biggest commercial producer of olive oil but a vast amount is sold in bulk to the Italians. They blend it with their own lesser volumes to on sell as an Italian product and give the impression that Italy is the No 1 grower-producer.

A Ferrari on extra virgin has a nice ring to it.

So, it's not about increasing the price of the cooking-oil, it's about removing more healthy stuff from our diets.:(

[neutron flux]

A 34-year-old Briton who drove a truck to Timbuktu on factory-reject chocolate is planning to lead 30 cars, powered only by cooking oil, on a two-week rally from London to Athens in August, Britain's Guardian newspaper reported yesterday.

The aim of the trip is to find out if using waste vegetable oil is practical for long distances, according to Andy Pag, who said drivers will set off with a full tank of chip fat and then have to scrounge from European restaurants. Participants should have the "ability to explain to a Croatian kebab shop owner that you need his grease," Pag quipped.

Drivers are to set off on August 16 from a "greasy spoon" cafe in London and to arrive in Athens two weeks later after crossing mainland Europe. Apart from raising awareness about biofuels, the "Grease to Greece" rally is also raising funds for the British Heart Foundation.


http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100016_27/05/2008_97071

[diamond dogs]

Well well well, I didn't know that bit. Another pioneer trying to allow economic free energy to flourish topped, by the sound of it.

Ten days later, the crew of the Dutch boat "Coertsen" came upon the corpse of a man floating in the sea. The body was in such a heavy state of decomposition that they did not bring it aboard. Instead, the crew retrieved personal items (pill case, wallet, pocket knife, eyeglass case) from the clothing of the dead man, which on October 13th were identified by Rudolf's son, Eugen Diesel, as belonging to his father.

Funny how they did not bring the body on board but managed to retrieve all the items...my theory...murdered in his bed and items kept for identification.....

Have not done any research into the meeting he was going to and who was head of the Consolodated Diesel Manufacturing Ltd..love to see some suspect names mentioned????

[steevo]

The point of my thread is that I think NOT MANY PEOPLE AT ALL use cooking oil as a fuel for their cars yet the price of cooking oil rises. THAT IS THE SCAM that I'm talking about.

And my own personal opinion on using cooking oil as a fuel for cars is that it's immoral, not to mention bloody expensive, to save a few quid at best. If we ALL used cooking oil then the price WOULD go up and JUSTIFIABLY SO. The solution is to spread the word about water being used as a fuel in cars and buses and trains cos THAT is the future and it should have been introduced half a centrury ago.

And if the people are using OLD USED COOKING OIL like someone has already mentioned on here, then WHY are the prices of cooking oil going up ? IT'S A SCAM I TELLS YA!

[diamond dogs]

It's all a scam...they have technology (not to mention the pyramid transportation DI mentioned at his talk) like water, revolutionary carbs, elctromagnet tecnology e.t.c e.t.c

[[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rb_rDkwGnU&eurl=http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com/?hop=tounano/MEDIA]

I think this one's ligit

[h2pogo]

i know lots of people who run compression ignition engines on vegetable oil.
the compression ignition engine was designed to run on vegetable oil.
lots of garages especially in Spain sell bio fuel on the pumps and will soon be selling bio ethanol for petrol engines.
i am sure this is having an effect on the price of food but not as much as commodity dealers on the stock exchange who are speculating on non perishable commodities as property and shares are not as profitable.
the best oil is hemp seed oil.
hemp produces lots more oil per acre and doesn't need as much chemicals on the land, the buy product being paper,plastic and building materials , it could be used in place of crops used for paper that destroy the land which are not even profitable.
hemp oil used with hydrogen boosters i think would be sustainable and not damaging to the environment and would make poor people richer.

[halebox]

Funny this guy came into my work today and gave me his website
http://www.watertogas.com/
Also these is a big veg oil car conversion place called lovecraft in silverlake los angeles.

[niftygifter]

VW tell me I have to have the car "modified" is this bullshit then?

All my surfing mates run their vans on cooking oil;)

Nifty:cool:

[icke_is_right]

http://www.smartveg.com/how_does_smartveg_work/smartveg_video.php

I found this video a good explanation for anyone wanting to know about conversion.

[chrism]

The point of my thread is that I think NOT MANY PEOPLE AT ALL use cooking oil as a fuel for their cars yet the price of cooking oil rises. THAT IS THE SCAM that I'm talking about.

And my own personal opinion on using cooking oil as a fuel for cars is that it's immoral, not to mention bloody expensive, to save a few quid at best. If we ALL used cooking oil then the price WOULD go up and JUSTIFIABLY SO. The solution is to spread the word about water being used as a fuel in cars and buses and trains cos THAT is the future and it should have been introduced half a centrury ago.

And if the people are using OLD USED COOKING OIL like someone has already mentioned on here, then WHY are the prices of cooking oil going up ? IT'S A SCAM I TELLS YA!

Just to pour oil on the flames (sorry - had to say it) I would point out that people not using a 'free' source of diesel like energy is NOT a scam. People can choose to do it if they desire, and the process is very easy. WHere is the scam?

And prices rising for oil? Have you not been keeping abreast of the changes in food prices for the last year and a bit? The poor harvests throughout the world (and vegetable oil is a harvested commodity, in case you were unaware - Those fields of yellow crop are 'Oil Seed Rape' from which we get 'Rape Seed Oil', more commonly known as vegetable oil) have led to vast increases in the cost of all foods. This also impacts meat prices, because the 'growth' of animals is dependant on grain, and so prices for the feed have increased.

Using water in cars - what do you mean by that? water has one of the lowest intrinsic values of any substance, which is why there is so much of it about. If you are talking about Hydrogen Fuel Cells, then the expense and environmental cost of manufacture have to be overcome. If you think you can simply put water into a fuel tank and drive on it, then you have a lot to learn about chemistry, physics and the laws of conservation of energy.

The subject of renewable energy is an important one, I hope something can be found shortly to replace our dependence on fossil fuels, and vegetable oil is one possible avenue - and I do not see anything immoral about using WASTE vegetable oil to fuel cars, in fact I see failing to do so when the possibility exists as an immoral waste of resources.

Chrism

[steevo]

Just to pour oil on the flames (sorry - had to say it) I would point out that people not using a 'free' source of diesel like energy is NOT a scam. People can choose to do it if they desire, and the process is very easy. WHere is the scam?

And prices rising for oil? Have you not been keeping abreast of the changes in food prices for the last year and a bit? The poor harvests throughout the world (and vegetable oil is a harvested commodity, in case you were unaware - Those fields of yellow crop are 'Oil Seed Rape' from which we get 'Rape Seed Oil', more commonly known as vegetable oil) have led to vast increases in the cost of all foods. This also impacts meat prices, because the 'growth' of animals is dependant on grain, and so prices for the feed have increased.

Using water in cars - what do you mean by that? water has one of the lowest intrinsic values of any substance, which is why there is so much of it about. If you are talking about Hydrogen Fuel Cells, then the expense and environmental cost of manufacture have to be overcome. If you think you can simply put water into a fuel tank and drive on it, then you have a lot to learn about chemistry, physics and the laws of conservation of energy.

The subject of renewable energy is an important one, I hope something can be found shortly to replace our dependence on fossil fuels, and vegetable oil is one possible avenue - and I do not see anything immoral about using WASTE vegetable oil to fuel cars, in fact I see failing to do so when the possibility exists as an immoral waste of resources.

Chrism

I know what rape seed is thanks (genetically modified btw). And there will NEVER be enough of it to cater for us to use as fuel (unless they decide to depopulate us). The scam is that the mainstream media "report" that loads of people are using vegetable oil (yes rape seed oil too :rolleyes:) to power their cars and thus we then accept that the price of vegetable oil has to rise ----YES IT'S A SCAM MATE.

Correct I was talking about hydrogen fuel cells. They will stop the destruction of the enviroment massively. Look up how they work and you will see it can be done very easily. They just need to build new types of cars and buses like they did in Perth WA but the "powers that be" took them off the road soon after. Yes Hydrogen Fuel Cells are in existence right now but they are stopping it being used to the point of assasinating anyone who dares produce and publicise these things.

No you cannot just put water into your diesel or petrol engine! :rolleyes:

[niftygifter]

Once again, HERE's KEVIN the TRUE American HERO:eek:

http://blog.waterforfuel.com/

He is nearly there with Stan Meyers patents and has also been given them by Stans brother (allegedly)

Bless this Guy, he takes NO shit from anyone:D


Nifty:cool:

[cruise4]

DO NOT necessarily believe in the so called laws of conservation of energy. Things are 'relative'. And I predict with minor changes, once freedom is allowed, YOU WILL be able to put water in your tank and drive. However there are better 'electrical' methods that may have already made that idea obsolete. And I also suspect non of this will matter in a few years anyway. Plus the sheeple must all suffer to wake up :D

[chrism]

I know what rape seed is thanks (genetically modified btw). And there will NEVER be enough of it to cater for us to use as fuel (unless they decide to depopulate us). The scam is that the mainstream media "report" that loads of people are using vegetable oil (yes rape seed oil too :rolleyes:) to power their cars and thus we then accept that the price of vegetable oil has to rise ----YES IT'S A SCAM MATE.

I didn't mean to suggest you were unaware of the origins of vegetable oil, but many people seem to think it comes from somewhere else. And if it had not been genetically modified (through selective breeding or through laboratory modification) then it would not produce anywhere near as much product as it does.

Not that I think this is the way to go. Personally I prefer the use of hemp to produce an alcohol for use in vehicles. The environmental impact of such fuels is zero (the only products being the carbon dioxide and water 'soaked up' in the production of the hemp) and the plants are a far more effective method of 'fixing' sunlight into a fuel source than Hydrogen Fuel Cells at the moment. I don't suggest they won't be much better in the future, but nature has already provided us with a solution!

Correct I was talking about hydrogen fuel cells. They will stop the destruction of the enviroment massively. Look up how they work and you will see it can be done very easily. They just need to build new types of cars and buses like they did in Perth WA but the "powers that be" took them off the road soon after. Yes Hydrogen Fuel Cells are in existence right now but they are stopping it being used to the point of assasinating anyone who dares produce and publicise these things.

HFCs utilise sunlight or other external energy to produce the fuel used in the vehicle. Unless it IS sunlight being used, then some alternative power needs to be provided. At the moment, HFCs can be used to propel a VERY LIGHT vehicle many miles at reasonable speeds providing this external source remains available.

Shippin is a different matter. For example, to move an 18 tonne truck, or even rail cart, would require HFC arrays roughly the size of a football pitch with the technology we have today, meaning as a method of mass transportation it is not a feasible option.

Renewable carbon-based fuel, on the other hand, is much more efficient (plants have been using sun-power for a lot longer than we have been around) and for the moment is the obvious choice. They are also entirely carbon-neutral, despite the name.

I am sure there are many organisations, multinational companies and corporations who benefit from the current model of fossil fuel use, and they would of course wish to 'protect their investment'. Some of these companies are indeed unscrupulous enough to stoop to the levels you are talking about, which is a disgusting abuse of power. Unfortunately, there are enough fraudulent claims of conspiracies to cover up alternative energy sources to make any real attempted murder or threats blend in to the background. Just look at Brown's Gas (failed HFC, theoretically?) as an example.

No you cannot just put water into your diesel or petrol engine! :rolleyes:

It seems that someone above disagrees with you! :eek::rolleyes:

[steevo]

HFCs utilise sunlight or other external energy to produce the fuel used in the vehicle. Unless it IS sunlight being used, then some alternative power needs to be provided. At the moment, HFCs can be used to propel a VERY LIGHT vehicle many miles at reasonable speeds providing this external source remains available.

Shippin is a different matter. For example, to move an 18 tonne truck, or even rail cart, would require HFC arrays roughly the size of a football pitch with the technology we have today, meaning as a method of mass transportation it is not a feasible option.

Renewable carbon-based fuel, on the other hand, is much more efficient (plants have been using sun-power for a lot longer than we have been around) and for the moment is the obvious choice. They are also entirely carbon-neutral, despite the name.



Sorry, but I think you are wrong about the Hydrogen Fuel Cells being only good enough to power SMALL vehicles. Yes solar power is used BUT only as a back up. Car batteries are used to break the water down into hydrogen and oxygen and they are charged up by using solar power AND an alternator in the same way that a normal combustion engine does in the cars that we use today. Like I said buses in Perth WA used HFC's (they are big vehicles).

That hemp thing is good IMO BUT again, it is being promoted to make us think that this is the way forward (just like the vegetable oil scam) when it isnt. HFC's are the way forward. Carbon footprint is a scam.

[jimmi]

Steevo, my reply on page one was an honest answer to your original post but after reading your subsequent posts I think I understand better what you were getting at and I loosely agree with what you are saying.
Brazil is probably the leading country for the use of biofuel produced from plants grown specifically for the purpose, as the use of this fuel increases there, there is less and less land available for food production and the poorer section of the population increasingly suffers.

[chrism]

Car batteries are used to break the water down into hydrogen and oxygen and they are charged up by using solar power AND an alternator in the same way that a normal combustion engine does in the cars that we use today.

This is the key to the problem - where does the power come from to charge the car battery? The alternator can only do this when the car is decelerating, otherwise it is just draining the battery. There is still a power requirement which needs to be fulfilled, whereas with current vehicles and biofuel cars there is no need to plug them in.

I understand that centralised power generation is the most efficient method of doing so, but if these power stations are not using fossil fuels (and we should hope this happens sooner rather than later) should they instead use Nuclear, Biofuel or the other alternatives?

Is wind/wave/solar going to generate enough power to run our vehicles in addition to our current power requirements, and if so is this a viable alternative?

Otherwise, a mention of population reduction on this thread earlier remains one of the possible long term solutions. I know it may sound sinister, but if we continue the way we are, nature itself will start putting pressure on humanity to curb population growth. I am not advocating any sort of genocide or enforced sterilisation, but human populations are growing exponentially, and our resources cannot grow to match our demand. I fail to see how anyone can think that continued growth at current levels can be a good thing.

In the short term we NEED a workable solution. Vegetable oil, hemp alcohol and other renewable energy sources may provide the short term answer to this problem while we work on and invest in things like HFC or other technologies until they can support us in the long term.

On an aside, I believe this is the main reason the US government - lobbied by the Oil and Petrol companies - is waging a war against cannabis. it would allow the poorest countries throughout the world to produce a cash crop within three months which could seriously harm the oil based American economy. A few giggling teenagers roaming the streets with average to industrial grade munchies is not going to destroy American society. A middle eastern business man with 20000 acres of hemp producing 50,000 barrels of untaxed, renewable, carbon neutral, non-polluting fuel per year on the other hand...

[steevo]

This is the key to the problem - where does the power come from to charge the car battery? The alternator can only do this when the car is decelerating, otherwise it is just draining the battery. There is still a power requirement which needs to be fulfilled, whereas with current vehicles and biofuel cars there is no need to plug them in.

I understand that centralised power generation is the most efficient method of doing so, but if these power stations are not using fossil fuels (and we should hope this happens sooner rather than later) should they instead use Nuclear, Biofuel or the other alternatives?

Is wind/wave/solar going to generate enough power to run our vehicles in addition to our current power requirements, and if so is this a viable alternative?

Otherwise, a mention of population reduction on this thread earlier remains one of the possible long term solutions. I know it may sound sinister, but if we continue the way we are, nature itself will start putting pressure on humanity to curb population growth. I am not advocating any sort of genocide or enforced sterilisation, but human populations are growing exponentially, and our resources cannot grow to match our demand. I fail to see how anyone can think that continued growth at current levels can be a good thing.

In the short term we NEED a workable solution. Vegetable oil, hemp alcohol and other renewable energy sources may provide the short term answer to this problem while we work on and invest in things like HFC or other technologies until they can support us in the long term.

On an aside, I believe this is the main reason the US government - lobbied by the Oil and Petrol companies - is waging a war against cannabis. it would allow the poorest countries throughout the world to produce a cash crop within three months which could seriously harm the oil based American economy. A few giggling teenagers roaming the streets with average to industrial grade munchies is not going to destroy American society. A middle eastern business man with 20000 acres of hemp producing 50,000 barrels of untaxed, renewable, carbon neutral, non-polluting fuel per year on the other hand...

You can argue those points all you wish but you are just repeating what the mainstream media tells you to think. The power needed to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen is tiny.
Hemp and vegetable oil is simply not the answer. And depopulation of the planet is plain CRAZY. I have said my bit chrism and you dont accept it so we will have to agree to disagree on all this.

You can believe in the carbon footprint bullshit if you want cos I dont care and you will be in a minority soon (thank god) cos it's fast becoming mainstream knowledge that the carbon tax is a scam.

[steevo]

Steevo, my reply on page one was an honest answer to your original post but after reading your subsequent posts I think I understand better what you were getting at and I loosely agree with what you are saying.
Brazil is probably the leading country for the use of biofuel produced from plants grown specifically for the purpose, as the use of this fuel increases there, there is less and less land available for food production and the poorer section of the population increasingly suffers.

Thanks for that Jimmi, you have put the point across better than I did in my opening post :)

[chrism]

You can argue those points all you wish but you are just repeating what the mainstream media tells you to think. The power needed to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen is tiny.

No - water is a stable compound of Hydrogen and Oxygen. It is stable precisely BECAUSE it is low in energy. In order to split the bonds between the Hydrogen and Oxygen atoms, you have to put in a LOT of energy (approx 21kJ/mol - 1 mol = 18g), which would then produce the separated gasses (actually, it would produce 1 hydrogen atom and a hydroxide group: OH + H) Breaking the other chain is even harder.).

Hemp and vegetable oil is simply not the answer. And depopulation of the planet is plain CRAZY. I have said my bit chrism and you dont accept it so we will have to agree to disagree on all this.

I am not talking about de-populating the planet, my post was quite clearly talking about reducing population GROWTH. There is a massive difference, although REDUCING the population naturally would be fantastic for the environment and humanity in general. I would be interested to hear why you think reducing the population of the planet is crazy.

You can believe in the carbon footprint bullshit if you want cos I dont care and you will be in a minority soon (thank god) cos it's fast becoming mainstream knowledge that the carbon tax is a scam.

I did not mention carbon footprint at all. This is one area in which we can be in agreement at least - I think the footprint bullshit is indeed a new method of taxing an already overtaxed population, and hope more people see this for the scam it is as soon as possible.

My point was that it is carbon neutral - i.e unlike fossil fuels is not releasing NEW carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Of course, it could be argued (and has been) that 'fossil' CO2 was indeed atmospheric until it was fixed by ancient forests, but either way it could be better leaving this where it is if alternative sources are available.

[steevo]

I am not talking about de-populating the planet, my post was quite clearly talking about reducing population GROWTH. There is a massive difference, although REDUCING the population naturally would be fantastic for the environment and humanity in general. I would be interested to hear why you think reducing the population of the planet is crazy.


Depopulation of the planet is crazy because it's genocide/murder.

If you are talking about "reducing population GROWTH" then SUPPOSING that a one child policy was brought in, how would it be enforced ? :cool:

[chrism]

Depopulation of the planet is crazy because it's genocide/murder.

In which case we can happily agree - genocide or murder is not the way forward.

If you are talking about "reducing population GROWTH" then SUPPOSING that a one child policy was brought in, how would it be enforced ? :cool:

Policies like this seem draconian and possibly even unnecessary, but at least China have identified that their burgeoning population is having a negative impact on their survival.

I believe population reduction (of the peaceful type) should be achieved through education and incentive. while people choose to maintain the average 2.4 children per family, the population will continue to grow, putting pressure on resources and eventually living space. If we can reduce this to an average of 2 (less if possible) then population will remain stable, or even be reduced.

Chrism

[steevo]

In which case we can happily agree - genocide or murder is not the way forward.



Policies like this seem draconian and possibly even unnecessary, but at least China have identified that their burgeoning population is having a negative impact on their survival.

I believe population reduction (of the peaceful type) should be achieved through education and incentive. while people choose to maintain the average 2.4 children per family, the population will continue to grow, putting pressure on resources and eventually living space. If we can reduce this to an average of 2 (less if possible) then population will remain stable, or even be reduced.

Chrism

Yes that way would be ok but SUPPOSING they brought in a "one child policy". Would you be in support of it and how would it be enFORCEd ?

[talkingchimp]

listen....this whole gaia earth worship, overpopulation is all part of the elites propagandising agenda..........so they can tax us all even more and reduce the useless eaters (their words) to a bare minimun of the slaves they require now that technology can do most of the things we can for them..............if you do your research you will discover the biggest output of co2 on the planet are the oceans........the earth is merely going through one of its many cycles, dont let them brainwash you...............im not saying petrol is healthy!! but it isnt the enemy its supposed to be, just like communism or aliens or witches! oh and yes if you have a diesel engine with a pump that pre warms your fuel you can indeed use vegetable oil. EDUCATE YOURSELVES!

[chrism]

Yes that way would be ok but SUPPOSING they brought in a "one child policy". Would you be in support of it and how would it be enFORCEd ?

No I would not be in support. Thinking outside my comfort zone, however, I can see one or two ways to 'enforce' it. I would NOT condone these:

1. Pay child benefit for the first child. This benefit is lost if another child is born.
2. Additional taxes for the parents of more than one child families
3. EnFORCEd (thx!) adoption
4. Enforced sterilisation

See - none of them are particularly nice are they. The first is probably the most morally acceptable. Personally I am not in favour of child benefit at all, believing that couples should be able to afford to have children before deciding to get pregnant.

My chosen 'method' would be education and reduction of all state "benefits". The welfare state is too much of a burden as it is, and reducing hand outs may well get a few people into work at the same time. Double bonus. The welfare state should be there to support us in times of need, not just when we are too lazy to get off our arse and do an honest days work. Quite simply, people will see that those with fewer children are better off, as are the children themselves, and they have a choice to make.

Chrism

[and justice for all]

I know what rape seed is thanks (genetically modified btw). And there will NEVER be enough of it to cater for us to use as fuel (unless they decide to depopulate us). The scam is that the mainstream media "report" that loads of people are using vegetable oil (yes rape seed oil too :rolleyes:) to power their cars and thus we then accept that the price of vegetable oil has to rise ----YES IT'S A SCAM MATE....

The Biofuels Scam, Food Shortages and the Coming Collapse of the Human Population
April 23, 2008 - By: Mike Adams - naturalnews.com

It was one of the dumbest "green" ideas ever proposed: Convert millions of acres of cropland into fields for growing ethanol from corn, then burn fossil fuels to harvest the ethanol, expending more energy to extract the fuel than you get from the fuel itself! Meanwhile, sit back and proclaim you've achieved a monumental green victory all while unleashing a dangerous spike in global food prices that's causing a ripple effect of food shortages and rationing around the world.

[...] while growing fuel on cropland initially sounds like a great idea, any honest assessment of the total impact leads you to the inescapable conclusion that biofuels are largely a government-sponsored scam. With a few exceptions, biofuels produce no net increase in energy output, and they cause food shortages while creating strong economic incentives for the destruction of the very rainforests we desperately need to stabilize the climate!

And now we're just starting to see the early signs of the economic and social insanity that has been unleashed by this foolish pursuit of biofuels around the world: Food rationing in Sam's Club stores in the U.S., rapidly-rising prices on bread, rice and corn, and price spikes at cafeterias and restaurants that depend on these staple ingredients. The price of rice has tripled globally, unleashing riots in Haiti and Bangladesh, and the United Nations has issued warnings that millions of people around the world now face starvation because they can't afford to buy food. Americans are even starting to hoard food once again, after years of avoiding basic preparedness measures. [...]

Most biofuel efforts are a sham: Not all of these price spikes are due to the conversion of croplands to biofuel fields, but much of it is. As a result, it's suddenly becoming obvious to nearly everyone that the pursuit of biofuels, as currently structured, is a grand greenwashing hoax. It doesn't produce more fuel than it consumes, and it drives up food prices to boot!

[...] the great American breadbasket: The corn and wheat fields. It is here that food is now being displaced by crops grown for biofuel processing. So where a farmer used to grow corn as a food source, he's now growing it to sell to a biofuel processing facility which turns the corn into ethanol. Obviously, the laws of economics come into play here, meaning that every bushel of corn used for biofuels production means one less bushel of corn available for food. Factor in the laws of supply and demand, and you can see that the more crops we use for biofuels, the higher the prices will rise for food.

[...] Now, it seems, consumers are about to be faced with a choice they never wanted to have to make: Should I buy fuel, or food?
In other words: Do I want to drive my car, or do I want to eat?

You can have fuel or food, but not both: Under a biofuels-focused agricultural policy, the same limited resources (soil, sunlight and water, essentially) can be used for only one thing at a time. [...]

Prepare for mass global starvation: So, to repeat, the food bubble is now starting to implode. What does it all mean? It means that as these economic and climate realities unfold, our world is facing massive starvation and food shortages. The first place this will be felt is in poor developing nations. It is there that people live on the edge of economic livelihood, where even a 20% rise in the price of basic food staples can put desperately-needed calories out of reach of tens of millions of families. If something is not done to rescue these people from their plight, they will starve to death. [...]

Read more:
http://www.naturalnews.com/023091.html

[steevo]

No I would not be in support. Thinking outside my comfort zone, however, I can see one or two ways to 'enforce' it. I would NOT condone these:

1. Pay child benefit for the first child. This benefit is lost if another child is born.
2. Additional taxes for the parents of more than one child families
3. EnFORCEd (thx!) adoption
4. Enforced sterilisation


Hey we are totally in agreement on this then cos you would NOT condone those ways that you have outlined and you would NOT support a one child policy. Great stuff ;):D

:cool:But then you go on to say that poor people should not have kids :-

See - none of them are particularly nice are they. The first is probably the most morally acceptable. Personally I am not in favour of child benefit at all, believing that couples should be able to afford to have children before deciding to get pregnant.

My chosen 'method' would be education and reduction of all state "benefits". The welfare state is too much of a burden as it is, and reducing hand outs may well get a few people into work at the same time. Double bonus. The welfare state should be there to support us in times of need, not just when we are too lazy to get off our arse and do an honest days work. Quite simply, people will see that those with fewer children are better off, as are the children themselves, and they have a choice to make.


What if EVERYONE could afford (financially) to have kids ? Would you agree with your own comments then ? Could we ALL then continue to have kids ?

It's the SYSTEM that makes people become poor and you have said that you would like the system to make poor people even poorer :confused:

The system is built on and for corrupt people to prosper but I dont see you saying that they should take money away from corrupt rich individuals, you just want to make poor people be poorer and then say that poor people should have less rights. The system creates the problem of chavs and the people who run the system then come up with the "solutions" which was already on their agenda long before they created the problems.

[jimmi]

I have read and believe that the most effective means of birth rate reduction is economic prosperity for all. Poorer people need the insurance of an extended family for the provision of care in old age.
Now a population cull from the top down, well that's a different matter!:D

[steevo]

The Biofuels Scam, Food Shortages and the Coming Collapse of the Human Population
April 23, 2008 - By: Mike Adams - naturalnews.com

It was one of the dumbest "green" ideas ever proposed: Convert millions of acres of cropland into fields for growing ethanol from corn, then burn fossil fuels to harvest the ethanol, expending more energy to extract the fuel than you get from the fuel itself! Meanwhile, sit back and proclaim you've achieved a monumental green victory all while unleashing a dangerous spike in global food prices that's causing a ripple effect of food shortages and rationing around the world.

[...] while growing fuel on cropland initially sounds like a great idea, any honest assessment of the total impact leads you to the inescapable conclusion that biofuels are largely a government-sponsored scam. With a few exceptions, biofuels produce no net increase in energy output, and they cause food shortages while creating strong economic incentives for the destruction of the very rainforests we desperately need to stabilize the climate!

And now we're just starting to see the early signs of the economic and social insanity that has been unleashed by this foolish pursuit of biofuels around the world: Food rationing in Sam's Club stores in the U.S., rapidly-rising prices on bread, rice and corn, and price spikes at cafeterias and restaurants that depend on these staple ingredients. The price of rice has tripled globally, unleashing riots in Haiti and Bangladesh, and the United Nations has issued warnings that millions of people around the world now face starvation because they can't afford to buy food. Americans are even starting to hoard food once again, after years of avoiding basic preparedness measures. [...]

Most biofuel efforts are a sham: Not all of these price spikes are due to the conversion of croplands to biofuel fields, but much of it is. As a result, it's suddenly becoming obvious to nearly everyone that the pursuit of biofuels, as currently structured, is a grand greenwashing hoax. It doesn't produce more fuel than it consumes, and it drives up food prices to boot!

[...] the great American breadbasket: The corn and wheat fields. It is here that food is now being displaced by crops grown for biofuel processing. So where a farmer used to grow corn as a food source, he's now growing it to sell to a biofuel processing facility which turns the corn into ethanol. Obviously, the laws of economics come into play here, meaning that every bushel of corn used for biofuels production means one less bushel of corn available for food. Factor in the laws of supply and demand, and you can see that the more crops we use for biofuels, the higher the prices will rise for food.

[...] Now, it seems, consumers are about to be faced with a choice they never wanted to have to make: Should I buy fuel, or food?
In other words: Do I want to drive my car, or do I want to eat?

You can have fuel or food, but not both: Under a biofuels-focused agricultural policy, the same limited resources (soil, sunlight and water, essentially) can be used for only one thing at a time. [...]

Prepare for mass global starvation: So, to repeat, the food bubble is now starting to implode. What does it all mean? It means that as these economic and climate realities unfold, our world is facing massive starvation and food shortages. The first place this will be felt is in poor developing nations. It is there that people live on the edge of economic livelihood, where even a 20% rise in the price of basic food staples can put desperately-needed calories out of reach of tens of millions of families. If something is not done to rescue these people from their plight, they will starve to death. [...]

Read more:
http://www.naturalnews.com/023091.html

Fantastic! That explains it very clearly:). Thanks for posting and justice for all, indeed!

[jimmi]

P.S. I don't think the welfare state is much of a burden on my tax pound, especially when compared to military spending, M.P.'s expenses(and salaries)I shan't go on.

[chrism]

Hey we are totally in agreement on this then cos you would NOT condone those ways that you have outlined and you would NOT support a one child policy. Great stuff ;):D



Hey, at least we agreed on something! :cool:

:cool:But then you go on to say that poor people should not have kids :-



What if EVERYONE could afford (financially) to have kids ? Would you agree with your own comments then ? Could we ALL then continue to have kids ?

I think economic factors would come in to play. Quite simply, we cannot ALL afford to have a large number of kids without external support. If the support is absent, having children is too much of a burden. I may be wrong, but that is the way I see it.

It's the SYSTEM that makes people become poor and you have said that you would like the system to make poor people even poorer :confused:

I disagree that it is the system that makes people poorer, and increasing competition for food by increasing the population will do nothing to improve levels of poverty.

The system is built on and for corrupt people to prosper but I dont see you saying that they should take money away from corrupt rich individuals, you just want to make poor people be poorer and then say that poor people should have less rights. The system creates the problem of chavs and the people who run the system then come up with the "solutions" which was already on their agenda long before they created the problems.

You say the system creates the chavs, I disagree. I think society in general does that. Lack of respect, education, prospects etc all add up. Parental responsibility starts with the choice to become a parent, and the 'chav' nation we are currently building offers nothing which benefits reasonable civilisation.

C

[jimmi]

Hey, at least we agreed on something! :cool:



I think economic factors would come in to play. Quite simply, we cannot ALL afford to have a large number of kids without external support. If the support is absent, having children is too much of a burden. I may be wrong, but that is the way I see it.



I disagree that it is the system that makes people poorer, and increasing competition for food by increasing the population will do nothing to improve levels of poverty.



You say the system creates the chavs, I disagree. I think society in general does that. Lack of respect, education, prospects etc all add up. Parental responsibility starts with the choice to become a parent, and the 'chav' nation we are currently building offers nothing which benefits reasonable civilisation.

C

So let's stop building this chav nation and work towards an inclusive society.

[and justice for all]

Fantastic! That explains it very clearly:). Thanks for posting and justice for all, indeed!

My pleasure Steevo. :)
It's the SYSTEM that makes people become poor...
The system is built on and for corrupt people to prosper but I dont see you saying that they should take money away from corrupt rich individuals, you just want to make poor people be poorer and then say that poor people should have less rights. The system creates the problem of chavs and the people who run the system then come up with the "solutions" which was already on their agenda long before they created the problems.

Right on my friend. But some people refuse to see things as they really are... finger pointing, searching for scapegoats... what else is new? :rolleyes:
Here I got you some more on the subject in hand...:


Food - The Ultimate Weapon Of The Ruling Elite
19/04/08 - By: William Bowles - informationclearinghouse

“…There are only two possible ways in which a world of 10 billion people can be averted. Either the current birth rates must come down more quickly. Or the current death rates must go up. There is no other way. There are, of course, many ways in which the death rates can go up. In a thermonuclear age, war can accomplish it very quickly and decisively. Famine and disease are nature’s ancient checks on population growth, and neither one has disappeared from the scene … To put it simply: Excessive population growth is the greatest single obstacle to the economic and social advancement of most of the societies in the developing world.” — Speech to the Club of Rome by Robert McNamara, Oct. 2, 1979

“Overpopulation and rapid demographic growth of Mexico is already today one of the major threats to the national security of the United States. Unless the U.S.-Mexico border is sealed, we will be up to our necks in Mexicans for whom we cannot find jobs.” —Robert McNamara, then World Bank president, March 19, 1982

McNamara’s thinly veiled genocidal utterances took place over thirty years ago, echoing the wealthy and the privileged’s fear of the ’great unwashed’ when ‘over-population’ was the buzzword. So not much has changed has it, we’re hearing the same, tired old messages being rolled out once again by the ruling elites and their spin doctors. McNamara’s cries of fear about being up to his neck in Mexicans is exactly same as the current bogey doing the rounds in Europe, only now they’re Africans.

Thus the current explosions in Haiti, Eygpt, Ivory Coast, Ethiopia, the Philippines, Indonesia and elsewhere over the rocketing price of basic foodstuffs such as cooking oil and rice prompted the BBC to describe them as first and foremost “a potential threat to Western security” (BBC News 24, 13 April, 2008), never mind the threat to human life, but then it reveals exactly where the BBC’s head is at, protecting the status quo. [...]

Standards of living have been falling for everybody (except the rich who, as a consequence, have just gotten even richer by stealing even more from the poor), since the 1970s when the ‘neo-liberal’ agenda was initiated and not only have the poorest been the hardest hit but we’ve seen millions of the formerly ‘middle classes’ dumped unceremoniously back where they ‘belong’, with the poor. Social status doesn’t put food on the table. So much for the capitalist ‘good life’.

These are the facts: real wages in the US have fallen since the 1970s. It’s reckoned that around 40 million Americans now live under the ‘official’ poverty level, but at least they can still eat something, not so the millions of people in the so-called developing world who already immiserated by so-called free trade, have been hit with a double whammy, nay, a quintuple whammy.

[Which are...]

Whammy #1: ‘Free Trade’:
The poor countries of the world have been ‘persuaded’ that growing food for export so as to earn foreign currency which they then have to use to buy imported food (guess where from?), is better than growing food in their back yard. And to make sure they live up to their end of the ‘bargain’, under WTO ‘rules’ they get punished if they try to control imports.
[...] Of course, we in the West with our wealth subsidize the production of food, so the poor of the planet get hit with a whammy within a whammy. Not having the resources to subsidize their own food production, as the cost of importing food rises but not the price they get for exporting food to us, they are truly caught between a rock and a barren place.

And it’s the same IMF and World Bank policies which created the latest crisis to hit the poor of our planet, that are responsible for creating such an unequal relationship in the first place.

Whammy #2: Energy:
And of course to grow all these crops for export needs lots of energy and lots of water, and lots of fertilizer, and lots of pesticides, all of which must be bought with precious foreign currency (and until recently, only dollars would be accepted). With oil now selling at over $113 a barrel, the cost of producing anything has shot through the roof. The winners: The Big Oil Cartels. No need to tell you who the losers are.

But the actual cost of producing the oil hasn’t risen much at all, the entire responsibility for these increases has to be placed where it belongs, on the commodities speculators and the Big Five oilcos. In other words, on all those grimy gamblers in investment corps and pension fund managers. It’s the system.

Whammy #3: ‘Bio-fuels’:
The latest addition to the armoury of food used as a weapon and perhaps the most obvious example to date, is converting production from food staples to so-called bio-fuels. [...]

Whammy #4: Water:
Fact: It takes 1,000-2,000 litres of water to produce 1 kilo of wheat [...]

Whammy #5: Climate Change:
Predictably, climate change impacts on those least able to deal with it, the poor. And lest we forget, the majority of the planet’s population are poor. [...]

Meanwhile, back in the land of the powerful, we’re busy planning for endless war in order to preserve our privilege, so even as our glorious leaders pontificate on about this or that crisis facing us, they’re spending billions on developing robots to shit bombs on the planet’s poor from a comfortable armchair some distance from the scene of the ‘action’.

LINK:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19775.htm

[cruise4]

A welfare state is an abomination and a sure sign of failure of both society and leadership. No suprise there then.

And notice the 'slight changes' bit chrism. I imagine you were mis-referring to my post.

[kblood]

And how is it the welfare state has failed? At least here in Denmark, people only ought to be short on money if they become alcoholics or heavy smokers, and their mishaps makes them poor. Most people make do quite well even though both smoking and drinking.

Its not a flawless system, and the health care system probably doesnt save lives much better than in other countries, it has most of the flaws that modern health care systems does, but its still better than not having a place to rest when sick in my oppinion. The people working there, or at least most of them, actually want the patients to get better.

In Denmark we also have to pay outragous sums to have cars though, and the gas to run them. If you think you pay much for gas then Denmark is a nice place to compare to. We got about 100% or more tax total on our gas. I think there might be 1 or 2 countries with higher gas prices, but still no economic breakdown yet.

Its quite amazing how much money the state can take from us, and we still have more to give. The state does give alot of it back though, which I believe is a good thing.

[cruise4]

"And how is it the welfare state has failed?"

A welfare state means 'workers' are ordered to hand over their property to others on penalty. Thats slavery.

There are better methods to provide the same service, only a better service without deductions for running the scheme.

Same with the health service. As DI says... a service that measures its success by the number they treat and not the number they cure is madness.

Its not that there shouldn't be provision's made for these services, its just that the way these desirable things are implemented today is a criminal enteprise which uses innacurate language to fool people.

"The state does give alot of it back though"

I do not believe this is the case. It gives a pittance back. Most income tax goes on interest payments, if not all of it.