Basic Income

[hagbard_celine]

Basic Income is a visionary social security system that is UK Green Party policy (not that I’m advocating voting for them!) and David wrote about it in It Doesn’t Have to Be Like This. It makes far more sense to me than any other welfare system I’ve heard of. The best thing about it is its simplicity. It works by the state paying every single citizen a certain amount of money; not a king’s ransom, just enough to live on; enough to ensure that that person will not starve or lose their home. The simplicity comes from the fact that there is no means-testing. There is no need for the army of clerical staff, city blocks of offices, security and fraud investigators, humiliating job-seekers interviews, signing-on and dole queues. The payment is set at a single, fixed rate and paid to everyone, rich and poor, able-bodied and disabled, working or not working. This means that if you have a job, you’re still getting your basic income on top of your wages; the tax money you pay to fund the scheme is one you benefit from too; so there’ll be no need to grit your teeth and tear your hair out any more over “lazy scroungers”!

The main criticism of Basic Income is that it removes the incentive to work. But as we’ve been shown time and time again, the idea that people need an incentive to work is a myth. It’s a myth very widely-held in Britain unfortunately and is promoted by much respected political figures and some of our best-selling newspapers. Look at the statistics: During the recession of the1980’s unemployment rose to over 3 million, yet after that recession, in the late 90’s, it fell to less that 500,000. Why do people suddenly and mysteriously stop being lazy during boom-times, Margaret Thatcher? I moan about having to go to work sometimes, but last year, when I was off sick for several weeks, I couldn’t wait to get back! And, if you check out my thread on Workers’ Cooperatives you’ll understand that if unemployment can be as low as half a million under the current global corporate system, imagine how low it could get in the future when we bring in Workers’ Coops!: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9061

Basic Income is the welfare state of kindness, insight and common sense. It is sadly not in force on a large scale today. There are several local versions in Namibia and Alaska has a form of Basic Income linked to oil profits. I hope a time will come when it is used all over the world. But hopefully a time will come when even it is no needed! In a way, social security of any kind is a symptom of society’s failure; it’s a salve to prevent individual people from going under due to this failure. In an ideal world it would not be necessary. Of course the world we live in is not ideal, but it could be. There’s no point lamenting: “If only the world was a better place!” The world is our creation. If it’s in the state it’s in that’s because of what we’ve done, or haven’t done. We can make it better. It’s our choice!

Here's a website of the Basic Income proponents: http://www.etes.ucl.ac.be/BIEN/Index.html

[rixxmixxhell]

Hi, i agree.
I mean, things need to change, and the only way to change things for the better is to make people realize what they have handed over to politicians, to see how they are/we all are, a apart of the problems we have on earth. I'm on benefits at the moment, i have been looking for work for about 4 months, although i'm about to start my degree in animal science, i've been living in poverty for years, was homeless for 2 years a wile back, i stayed on the London buses overnight to stay warm etc, and i got myself a landscaping job, all of my own back, didn't have any support etc. What if i wasn't as street wise, or able? What would have happened to me?? This entails alot of work and planning to change systems, but it's people we have to change too. I think we live in hard times, some have it too easy, some have it too hard.

I have always believed in a free, open, non-monetary system, like star trek for instance. Working in communities, for communities. But these scroungers, i mean the real losers, they are so dumb, and so, ahh i don't know how to put it into words, so asleep, that these would never co-op, and it wouldn't work with out everyone pulling their weight and changing their lifestyles. I would gladly give up all this useless, inanimate electronic goods, and power cookers,(not that i have any) if it meant living more cleaner, and actually using our materials and scientists to better our world, so we need to clear out the clutter, destroy the government, and re-educate these cloned, asleep people who agree with control over others, i mean, not just appointed representatives, but the ones who destroy our world, and health for profit, I say, kill them all, but this would never be accomplished. So where does that leave us, in a stalemate?? We need assistance, over a long period of time.

People need to realize they will never find happiness in money, nor material goods. The soul needs friendship, fulfilments, appreciation, recognition, - of which no ones receives nowadays.

Well i think im rambling now, in not sure where i was going with this. There's just so much that needs to be done. I hope first official contact will bring in a new awareness to people that will by itself show people innately what needs to change in our world and how.

Money? Who wants it.....not me.
Schools need to change, and the people running them removed, fee's to learn?? That's disgusting in my eyes. That shows what kind of people we are as humans on earth. Not all of us i know, but from a outside view of us, we are all to blame and we all have the power to CHANGE!

We need to act, agitate the stalemates.

Sorry if i went off there, just woke up and got loads in my mind.
Rick

[cruise4]

This is the right idea Hagbard. We need a system whereby everyone's basic needs are met. Free energy systems, land rights, water properly dealt with, no tax unless using public resources etc. FREEDOM. Its certainly possible I believe.
I've thought loads about this and the only issue would be the transition period as we remove the inequalities history has given us. To be honest I haven't seen ANYTHING else thats even comes close to being a workable or desirable alternative. To many cannot get out of their pre-conceived or pre-programmed patterns on economy and trade etc. at present. It seems obvious to me that there is almost nothing within current society that is actually desirable in a society, structure wise.

Re. schools... why send a child to school if they are safe to play outside, the parents are at home or doing whatever their passion is, and everyone is around to teach them actually useful and informative stuff? At some point a 'vocation' might appeal and industrial or other type guilds could perhaps provide the specialization and education needed, from whatever age, as deemed apropriate by the individual. Based on their interest, not based on qualifications. As a human being your option for participation should be only governed by YOUR interest. I'm not against schools per se, but I'm well against schools as they are today and I feel confident in a proper society their role would be severly diminished as education would be far superior via other methods.

[indigo28]

The economic situation in the U.S. is getting worse each day I try looking for a job that isn't there or that some "government" employee gave to his friend or relative. I live in one of The Most corrupt states in the Union. Worst of all,not surprisingly, we are being lied to by our government too:mad: For example, I am competing for jobs (that are so obviously slave labour I really get physically sick after working in them awhile) with teenagers, young adults, baby boomers getting a second job, retiring baby boomers needing a job to survive on the social security they keep raising the age for and the government wants to trash it outright, and the elderly (with up most respect for all the others stuck in this horrible caste system). At least now my own grandmother finally realized, after reading David's works, that the entire economy is not my fault! Dear God, in the beginning, my family was blaming me for not being able to find a job to interview for. Our government is trying to tear families apart and there are more drug commercials on TV everyday, and I feel terrible I can't do anything to save the Black population they keep in the ghettos here. I feel like I'm writing this before a holocaust breaks out. Let's see, who will the government try to blame for the recession? Hmmm, pick an easy target who you already control economically and is there hope of stopping it?

Indigo

maybe some kind soul could get the word out?

[mad as a cat]

This is a good thread, haggers. :)

And cruise, I like what you said. :D


Re. schools... why send a child to school if they are safe to play outside, the parents are at home or doing whatever their passion is, and everyone is around to teach them actually useful and informative stuff?

[kweli]

This is the right idea Hagbard. We need a system whereby everyone's basic needs are met. Free energy systems, land rights, water properly dealt with, no tax unless using public resources etc. FREEDOM. Its certainly possible I believe.
I've thought loads about this and the only issue would be the transition period as we remove the inequalities history has given us. To be honest I haven't seen ANYTHING else thats even comes close to being a workable or desirable alternative. To many cannot get out of their pre-conceived or pre-programmed patterns on economy and trade etc. at present. It seems obvious to me that there is almost nothing within current society that is actually desirable in a society, structure wise.

Re. schools... why send a child to school if they are safe to play outside, the parents are at home or doing whatever their passion is, and everyone is around to teach them actually useful and informative stuff? At some point a 'vocation' might appeal and industrial or other type guilds could perhaps provide the specialization and education needed, from whatever age, as deemed apropriate by the individual. Based on their interest, not based on qualifications. As a human being your option for participation should be only governed by YOUR interest. I'm not against schools per se, but I'm well against schools as they are today and I feel confident in a proper society their role would be severly diminished as education would be far superior via other methods.

You speak my kind of language. Interesting post, thanks.

[hagbard_celine]

Hi, i agree.
I mean, things need to change, and the only way to change things for the better is to make people realize what they have handed over to politicians, to see how they are/we all are, a apart of the problems we have on earth. I'm on benefits at the moment, i have been looking for work for about 4 months, although i'm about to start my degree in animal science, i've been living in poverty for years, was homeless for 2 years a wile back, i stayed on the London buses overnight to stay warm etc, and i got myself a landscaping job, all of my own back, didn't have any support etc. What if i wasn't as street wise, or able? What would have happened to me?? This entails alot of work and planning to change systems, but it's people we have to change too. I think we live in hard times, some have it too easy, some have it too hard.

I have always believed in a free, open, non-monetary system, like star trek for instance. Working in communities, for communities. But these scroungers, i mean the real losers, they are so dumb, and so, ahh i don't know how to put it into words, so asleep, that these would never co-op, and it wouldn't work with out everyone pulling their weight and changing their lifestyles. I would gladly give up all this useless, inanimate electronic goods, and power cookers,(not that i have any) if it meant living more cleaner, and actually using our materials and scientists to better our world, so we need to clear out the clutter, destroy the government, and re-educate these cloned, asleep people who agree with control over others, i mean, not just appointed representatives, but the ones who destroy our world, and health for profit, I say, kill them all, but this would never be accomplished. So where does that leave us, in a stalemate?? We need assistance, over a long period of time.

People need to realize they will never find happiness in money, nor material goods. The soul needs friendship, fulfilments, appreciation, recognition, - of which no ones receives nowadays.

Well i think im rambling now, in not sure where i was going with this. There's just so much that needs to be done. I hope first official contact will bring in a new awareness to people that will by itself show people innately what needs to change in our world and how.

Money? Who wants it.....not me.
Schools need to change, and the people running them removed, fee's to learn?? That's disgusting in my eyes. That shows what kind of people we are as humans on earth. Not all of us i know, but from a outside view of us, we are all to blame and we all have the power to CHANGE!

We need to act, agitate the stalemates.

Sorry if i went off there, just woke up and got loads in my mind.
Rick

Good luck with your studies, Rick :).

On another thread we're discussing all about laziness and "scroungers" etc: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27020

The question to ask is: Why do some people refuse to work? What exactly is the state of mind called "lazy"? Could it be because work is usually an unpleasent thing to do. If we make it more enjoyable then people will want to do it. If you create a world where work is a dull chore where you lose all the democratic rights you enjoy out of work and get treated as a mindless cog in a machine then some people will take the option of refusing to do it! I honestly don't blame them. I was unemployed as a teenager for more than a year until I found one of the few jobs available I actually liked.

The number of people who are deliberately avoiding work is very small though. This becomes obvious during the last boomtime when unemployment in the UK fell to less than a million. What amazes me is that so many people still insist on the dignity of earning a wage when work in this world almost inevitably means exploitation, boredom and humiliation. If we actually changed the employment environment, make work a fun and pleasuable thing to do, then laziness would cease to be a rpoblem because people would want to do work!

[hagbard_celine]

This is the right idea Hagbard. We need a system whereby everyone's basic needs are met. Free energy systems, land rights, water properly dealt with, no tax unless using public resources etc. FREEDOM. Its certainly possible I believe.
I've thought loads about this and the only issue would be the transition period as we remove the inequalities history has given us. To be honest I haven't seen ANYTHING else thats even comes close to being a workable or desirable alternative. To many cannot get out of their pre-conceived or pre-programmed patterns on economy and trade etc. at present. It seems obvious to me that there is almost nothing within current society that is actually desirable in a society, structure wise.

Re. schools... why send a child to school if they are safe to play outside, the parents are at home or doing whatever their passion is, and everyone is around to teach them actually useful and informative stuff? At some point a 'vocation' might appeal and industrial or other type guilds could perhaps provide the specialization and education needed, from whatever age, as deemed apropriate by the individual. Based on their interest, not based on qualifications. As a human being your option for participation should be only governed by YOUR interest. I'm not against schools per se, but I'm well against schools as they are today and I feel confident in a proper society their role would be severly diminished as education would be far superior via other methods.

Absolutely!:):cool: One cannot consider social security in any way without understanding that it is an issue tied up with the genral and holistic well-being of our society. It's not good changing the Welfare State without adressing the matter of Free Energy, local democracy, employment structure and law, education etc.

[rixxmixxhell]

Hi, thanks for your comments Hagbard (spelled correct i hope!)

I too see that for most people now-a-days, work is a chore. It's not fulfilling enough, apart from some jobs, obviously, but for most of the working class, it's miserable, boring, unstimulating. This is by design..rules, regulations, cameras, no tea at your desk, no this, no that... For a lot of people i know would actually like to paired to a job, like if you have an interest in something, you are matched to it, providing you have the aptitude, and if not, paired to something that is a close to it as possible wile also being suited to that persons skills.

Now, i don't mean paired via a government institution, although i'm yet to figure how this could work, it should be by a non profit group, but then i suppose they would be corrupt within weeks..if not days....It's a fine line because Imagen being told you can only be a labourer. If everyone didn't wanna be labourers, someone would have to do it. Fortunately, not every one are intelligent, or have the desire to be better than a payed slave, but there's a place for everyone in our world, isn't there.

I think, say where i'm from, most people follow their peers, they walk the streets as teenagers, smashing car windows as they go, in breeding and breeding even dumber kids. The government must love these sheeple.

They have no desire because they have no direction, they think books are for setting a fire with, and think they are impressive and 'free' when they tell the government to F-off, but i mean, really, they have no clue. As for the other group who are older, and have no work skills, no motivation may be from numerous reasons. Confidence, self worth. We need self worth to be motivated, no? These people need an injection of the appreciation kind, shown they can be something, instead they hide and live in denial and ponse benefits all their lives. Now i don't judge people, but we need to be truthful, don't we. They need to be told, to be shown, stimulated.

Living on benefits is not right in the long term, it makes no headway, it just gives the Gov. an excuse to squander more money after making it from thin air. If they had their benefits stopped, we have to have a system in place already to handle this. We can't just say, no more money, because what about the genuine parents out their with no work skills, where those live in areas where the economy consists on nothing more than a few shops, a parking lot, and a voleenter club, you see what i mean. Nothing is black and white, although we don need to act, not government rules and more 'change' or more 'strict on benefit abusers', it's the people that need to change this.

I'm sorry but from my observations and where i have grown up, most poor people seem to be 'inadequate', dumb, uneducated. But here's the problem . Some cant afford an education, but are smart enough to do it. Then some do choose but then fall into the 'way their neighbours are' t be polite, then you have the dumb, who breed dumb kids, who breed dumb kids. It's not who we attack or force to change, it's how and why we have to in the first place. How have they got like this???
Rick.

[cruise4]

"Now, I don't mean paired via a government institution, although i'm yet to figure how this could work"

This is why I use the term 'guild's'. For example.... got a medical vocation? Then you'd approach the medical guild which encompasses everything from education to practise, including alternative, and manufacture. All the skills under one roof, albeit comprised of much independant activity.

No Government involved.

[mightiswrong]

the idea that people need an incentive to work is a myth.

The idea that people should have to work is a myth. An enslaving myth. Far better that everyone is allocated a hectare of land on which to live. The land provides food at no cost so there really is no need to work if you do not want to. I have been making money online for years and still feel guilty on occasion that I haven't done any work. Fact is I only work when I feel like it and I shouldn't feel guilty. People get so jealous but it is the financial freedom that has allowed me to think about things. Most people (including politicians) never have the time.

Looking at the amount of money university costs is just shocking. I am in £10,000 of debt and the government probably paid the same amount again. Look at the free schooling for 12 years at lets say £3000 per year. My education on it's own has cost the tax payer probably around £40,000 and I still don't have my own land. A hectare of land isn't going to cost more than £10,000 in most of Europe, maybe a bit more in the UK. Government should start giving people land so they can be free. What use is a job or a basic income if someone else isn't prepared to grow decent food for you? Why should people pay rent just to have a home?
This system is crazy. We steal from Peter to pay Paul for something that was ours from the beginning. Get the land back and you have a future, safe food, water and freedom. If I could swop university for a home full of fresh food you bet I would sooner be free.

[mightiswrong]

This means that if you have a job, you’re still getting your basic income on top of your wages; the tax money you pay to fund the scheme is one you benefit from too; so there’ll be no need to grit your teeth and tear your hair out any more over “lazy scroungers”!

This is impossible.

If workers get it straight back then where is the surplus for the unemployed?

[cruise4]

Get the land back... this is the critical bit that has to be done. We have a historical imbalance that must be corrected. I don't believe in land ownership, only land rights. There's no practical difference bar no buying and selling. Ideal.

The basic income doesn't arise from 'workers' per se, it arises from resource use. For example if you want to fish the sea, thats a resource owned by everyone that you want to take from. So you pay for the 'taking' direct to the people. You can then sell to 'some' of the people and make a bit more. But those who haven't bought your fish are able to instead spend on something else. etc. etc.
Same with farming, same with everything.

[hagbard_celine]

The idea that people should have to work is a myth. An enslaving myth. Far better that everyone is allocated a hectare of land on which to live. The land provides food at no cost so there really is no need to work if you do not want to. I have been making money online for years and still feel guilty on occasion that I haven't done any work. Fact is I only work when I feel like it and I shouldn't feel guilty. People get so jealous but it is the financial freedom that has allowed me to think about things. Most people (including politicians) never have the time.

Looking at the amount of money university costs is just shocking. I am in £10,000 of debt and the government probably paid the same amount again. Look at the free schooling for 12 years at lets say £3000 per year. My education on it's own has cost the tax payer probably around £40,000 and I still don't have my own land. A hectare of land isn't going to cost more than £10,000 in most of Europe, maybe a bit more in the UK. Government should start giving people land so they can be free. What use is a job or a basic income if someone else isn't prepared to grow decent food for you? Why should people pay rent just to have a home?
This system is crazy. We steal from Peter to pay Paul for something that was ours from the beginning. Get the land back and you have a future, safe food, water and freedom. If I could swop university for a home full of fresh food you bet I would sooner be free.


Ah, you've been reading the Ringing Cedars books.:)

They're very interesting and it sounds like a good idea for those who want it. If it works then the idea will catch on.

[hagbard_celine]

Get the land back... this is the critical bit that has to be done. We have a historical imbalance that must be corrected. I don't believe in land ownership, only land rights. There's no practical difference bar no buying and selling. Ideal.

The basic income doesn't arise from 'workers' per se, it arises from resource use. For example if you want to fish the sea, thats a resource owned by everyone that you want to take from. So you pay for the 'taking' direct to the people. You can then sell to 'some' of the people and make a bit more. But those who haven't bought your fish are able to instead spend on something else. etc. etc.
Same with farming, same with everything.


In some cases this is what is being done in the pilot schemes. The Alaskan system is not state-based; it all comes from local oil field profits.

[hagbard_celine]

This is impossible.

If workers get it straight back then where is the surplus for the unemployed?


It comes from the state exchequer. Obviously this means it's funded by tax in the same way as the Welfare State currently is, but it may be possible to generate the money in other ways to make up the difference between what goes out and what comes in; the stock market perhaps; any other ideas?

Of course, like I said, ideally there would be so few people unemployed that the shortfall, even in a totally state-only funded scheme, on the tax-payer would be negilible.