..Marriage...

[jinjo5]

If you think about it deep enough,isnt marriage a constraint,a control.
Where does the concept of marriage come from anyway?
Is it a religious thing or does it come from elsewhere?
wouldnt it be handy for the controlling powers to advocate marriage
and family life?
Cos there you have little bite size compartments that you can easily
manipulate.
every family,or compartment,being basically the same you can have the same rules to govern all.
Have you noticed over the last few years that single mothers have been made to look like the scum of the earth.
Why pick on the weakest?
Its cos they arent conforming.
I aint sure ive put my point across,i always struggle to put into words what i think.:)

[jagalman]

If you think about it deep enough,isnt marriage a constraint,a control.
Where does the concept of marriage come from anyway?
Is it a religious thing or does it come from elsewhere?
wouldnt it be handy for the controlling powers to advocate marriage
and family life?
Cos there you have little bite size compartments that you can easily
manipulate.
every family,or compartment,being basically the same you can have the same rules to govern all.
Have you noticed over the last few years that single mothers have been made to look like the scum of the earth.
Why pick on the weakest?
Its cos they arent conforming.
I aint sure ive put my point across,i always struggle to put into words what i think.:)


I think marriage is religion thing!
it's all about the ring thing! how come all religion's use the ring?

[Anders Lindman]

it's all about the ring thing! how come all religion's use the ring?

One ring to rule them all
One ring to find them
One ring to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them

:D

To be a bit more serious though, I think marriage can be both good and bad.

[jinjo5]

One ring to rule them all
One ring to find them
One ring to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them

:D

To be a bit more serious though, I think marriage can be both good and bad.
When i married my wife about 16 yrs ago,i didnt want a ring.
Im not sure why even now.
Maybe a ring is like saying "youre mine"....but ive always been an independant type of person..........and didnt like the idea of being anybodys.
Any psychologist on this site available for appraisal?.:D

[turquoisefyre]

iv'e watched one of Jordam Maxwell's presentations some time ago, and one of the things he incedently described was that the rings you wear when you are married signifies the rings of Saturn.

Saturn of course is considered a strickt, "black" planet where Satan resides.

go figure, you're literally being held in bondage by the devil.

[Anders Lindman]

When i married my wife about 16 yrs ago,i didnt want a ring.
Im not sure why even now.
Maybe a ring is like saying "youre mine"....but ive always been an independant type of person..........and didnt like the idea of being anybodys.
Any psychologist on this site available for appraisal?.:D

I had what I thought was a cool idea that I wrote about in another thread (don't remember which). Personal relationships can be seen as possessions without the possessions of people. In a relationship between person A and person B, instead of person A possessing person B and vice versa, both persons possesses the shared relationship AB. So it's the relationship between the persons that is the possession, not the persons themselves. And then having a ring can be seen as a token for the relationship AB.

[jinjo5]

iv'e watched one of Jordam Maxwell's presentations some time ago, and one of the things he incedently described was that the rings you wear when you are married signifies the rings of Saturn.

Saturn of course is considered a strickt, "black" planet where Satan resides.

go figure, you're literally being held in bondage by the devil.
ive never heard of jordam maxwell turq;
Whatever its suppose to signify,i felt really uncomfortable about the thought of wearing a ring that was saying 'i am this,i am that'.........Im my own person,dont need to be told what to do,or be,by anyone.

[Anders Lindman]

ive never heard of jordam maxwell turq;
Whatever its suppose to signify,i felt really uncomfortable about the thought of wearing a ring that was saying 'i am this,i am that'.........Im my own person,dont need to be told what to do,or be,by anyone.

But marriage can be seen as a possession, and a ring as a sign for the possession. Possessions are good things. If a possession is not a good thing, then the possession needs to be dropped. And you don't have to carry around possessions all the time, not even a ring. You can still own the ring without having it on your finger all the time.

[Anders Lindman]

Saying things like "I dumped him" or "I dumped her" is extraordinary silly. You dumped the relationship, not the person, see?

[jinjo5]

But marriage can be seen as a possession, and a ring as a sign for the possession. Possessions are good things. If a possession is not a good thing, then the possession needs to be dropped. And you don't have to carry around possessions all the time, not even a ring. You can still own the ring without having it on your finger all the time.
worrying points you made anders.
maybe i didnt wanna get married in the first place.
When i was young i was adamant i would never get wed.
It didnt suit me,still doesnt,but...we all fall for it.why?

[rainmaker]

I always did think that marriage was a control mechanism, a bite size chunk (as jinjo put it) of the pyramid of power - even then, it was still something I wanted when I was younger, someone to say they wanted to make that commitment. So I was always at odds with it. As I got older, I didn't see marriage as something I wanted in and of itself, but it was something I chose more than once.

An interesting question I came across in one of the many "New Age" or "Alternative lifestyle" seminars I have attended over the years is: How much of YOU did you have to divorce in order to be married? (Edit: Actually, it was the author of the book suggested below)

The whole community aspect of marriage, the involvement, judgment, and even words spoken at a ceremony, (in some countries) can be about control and locking down energy.
These are the words a celebrant has to say in Australia:
“I am duly authorized by law to solemnize marriages according to law. Before you are joined in marriage in my presence and in the presence of these witnesses, I am to remind you of the solemn and binding nature of the relationship into which you are now about to enter. Marriage, according to law in Australia, is the union of a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others, voluntarily entered into for life”

So using words like "solemn and binding" and "exclusion of all others" (in what way?) kind of puts a dampener on things. We certainly didn't want to use them at our wedding, but one has to BY LAW. So, we didn't have them or any other silliness in the rest of the ceremony, because we wanted it to be FUN, done in joy, and celebratory - certainly not solemn. (we got married a couple of weeks ago - and we did not FALL in love, we ROSE in love)

I certainly think marriage can be a tool for control, to limit people's options, but it can also be a symbol of the communion which goes beyond this earthly life. It certainly is the latter in the case of my current husband and I.

In some societies, marriage can be for a year, or can be renounced easily, so it really depends on the society the marriage takes place in (and the people involved in the marriage) as to how controlling a marriage could become, and how difficult it might be to extract onesself from if it was necessary.

In my last marriage, I never wore a ring. In this one, I am happy to wear a ring even before we were married. It doesn't symbolize ownership to me, whereas before it did. Symbols mean what we give them. I'm still mulling over why I could make that change so easily, but since it was an instinctual thing, I'll just go with it.

Marriage can be a tricky one. Because many of us do want that deep loving communion with another, often we can mistake the outer trappings and symbolism, the pomp and ceremony of the wedding and the involvement of others, to mean that we have it, or the intention of it. We "settle" for the illusion. Or, from not knowing any different, we might mistake something not QUITE the "real deal" as that spiritual merging - so we "settle".



Here's an interesting book:
Sex Is Not a Four Letter Word but Relationship Often Times Is (Paperback)
by Gary M. Douglas (Author), Dain C. Heer (Author)

[jinjo5]

I always did think that marriage was a control mechanism, a bite size chunk (as jinjo put it) of the pyramid of power - even then, it was still something I wanted when I was younger, someone to say they wanted to make that commitment. So I was always at odds with it. As I got older, I didn't see marriage as something I wanted in and of itself, but it was something I chose more than once.

An interesting question I came across in one of the many "New Age" or "Alternative lifestyle" seminars I have attended over the years is: How much of YOU did you have to divorce in order to be married? (Edit: Actually, it was the author of the book suggested below)

The whole community aspect of marriage, the involvement, judgment, and even words spoken at a ceremony, (in some countries) can be about control and locking down energy.
These are the words a celebrant has to say in Australia:
“I am duly authorized by law to solemnize marriages according to law. Before you are joined in marriage in my presence and in the presence of these witnesses, I am to remind you of the solemn and binding nature of the relationship into which you are now about to enter. Marriage, according to law in Australia, is the union of a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others, voluntarily entered into for life”

So using words like "solemn and binding" and "exclusion of all others" (in what way?) kind of puts a dampener on things. We certainly didn't want to use them at our wedding, but one has to BY LAW. So, we didn't have them or any other silliness in the rest of the ceremony, because we wanted it to be FUN, done in joy, and celebratory - certainly not solemn. (we got married a couple of weeks ago - and we did not FALL in love, we ROSE in love)

I certainly think marriage can be a tool for control, to limit people's options, but it can also be a symbol of the communion which goes beyond this earthly life. It certainly is the latter in the case of my current husband and I.

In some societies, marriage can be for a year, or can be renounced easily, so it really depends on the society the marriage takes place in (and the people involved in the marriage) as to how controlling a marriage could become, and how difficult it might be to extract onesself from if it was necessary.

In my last marriage, I never wore a ring. In this one, I am happy to wear a ring even before we were married. It doesn't symbolize ownership to me, whereas before it did. Symbols mean what we give them. I'm still mulling over why I could make that change so easily, but since it was an instinctual thing, I'll just go with it.

Marriage can be a tricky one. Because many of us do want that deep loving communion with another, often we can mistake the outer trappings and symbolism, the pomp and ceremony of the wedding and the involvement of others, to mean that we have it, or the intention of it. We "settle" for the illusion. Or, from not knowing any different, we might mistake something not QUITE the "real deal" as that spiritual merging - so we "settle".



Here's an interesting book:
Sex Is Not a Four Letter Word but Relationship Often Times Is (Paperback)
by Gary M. Douglas (Author), Dain C. Heer (Author)
It seems to me that people want a day of ATTENTION....THAT IS WHAT A WEDDING IS....LOOK AT ME....but that single day cant last a lifetime.
99.5% couldnt give a monkeys about the religious aspect or commitment thing......its done cos everyone else does it......even i fell for it.and that is saying summat,never,ever,ever thought i would.get married.

[rainmaker]

Jinjo, it can be the case. This is my third marriage, and in every case the marriage happened because by law we couldn't be together easily in our respective countries unless we were married.


The first two times, there was no WEDDING - just one witness, and this time, people came because they wanted to or asked to - we didn't send invites. Some people tried to make it into what THEY thought constituted a wedding, and then was when they were told to back off. I don't need attention, I've had more attention than I ever care to repeat, so I don't need a wedding for that. As me and my current partner say, the wedding does not matter, it's the marriage (or more rightly, the communion) that matters.

[jinjo5]

Jinjo, it can be the case. This is my third marriage, and in every case the marriage happened because by law we couldn't be together easily in our respective countries unless we were married.


The first two times, there was no WEDDING - just one witness, and this time, people came because they wanted to or asked to - we didn't send invites. Some people tried to make it into what THEY thought constituted a wedding, and then was when they were told to back off. I don't need attention, I've had more attention than I ever care to repeat, so I don't need a wedding for that. As me and my current partner say, the wedding does not matter, it's the marriage (or more rightly, the communion) that matters.
If two people are together,happy,and dont feel their compromising any of each others freedom,or restricting them in any way,then thats fine.
If youre in a relationship then,naturally,you have to give a little but away,at least.
I love peace n quiet...........im always happiest on on my own.i feel so free.

[lucifershammer]

When people ask me when i'm going to marry my girlfriend, i reply "why ruin a good thing?" which got me an earfull from some misguided jesusfreak.

Marriage is another way to bind the masses. get married or be branded with a stigma. step ouside of that marriage and be branded with a stigma.

whoever quoted the lord of the rings hit it right on.

[tinmenace]

I just don't understand why governments think that they have a right to apply any laws to unions between people that wish to be 'married'.

I don't think it's the business of anyone, except the people involved.

[eternal_spirit]

I'm looking for a wife Pm lol if you're intrested.

I had a thought, the word wife is similair to LIFE, could be a regional variation of the word taking accents into account.

You get married to a wife, who gives life to you're children if you see what I mean. Marriage was all about breeding at one time not so much these days.

[eternal_spirit]

See in the olden days to get married and raise a family was the point.

Isn't it best for children to have a mum and dad who are married even today?
The Illuminati brotherhood have helped destroy the family.

They choose who they marry or breed with(has to be the right blood lines they want to keep thier bloodlines pure they think they're better than the rest) just like the Hindu caste system has been doing for thousands of years selective breeding is another word that would describe this.

Elitest bull.......

[jinjo5]

I just don't understand why governments think that they have a right to apply any laws to unions between people that wish to be 'married'.

I don't think it's the business of anyone, except the people involved.
Its strange that the woman in any marriage does not need to have legal requirement to take up her husband's name.
she can keep her own surname if she so wishes.
Most never do of course,unless youre a celebrity.
Must be some religous nonsense then about taking you husband's name.
If i were female,think id wanna keep my maiden name.

[tinmenace]

I couldn't wait to get rid of mine! My husband's name is very Swedish and I totally love it.

[jinjo5]

I'm looking for a wife Pm lol if you're intrested.

I had a thought, the word wife is similair to LIFE, could be a regional variation of the word taking accents into account.

You get married to a wife, who gives life to you're children if you see what I mean. Marriage was all about breeding at one time not so much these days.
That woul be nice eternal,just breed ,then scarper;)
Why cant we fellas just do the business,then disappear like the frogs do.:)
Nobody calls them deserting bastards.
Im not sure we are the sociable animal we are told we are suppose to be
in my 46 yrs on this planet my feeling is that its every buggar for themselves.

[rainmaker]

I'm undecided about whether to take my new married name or not.
I did take my previous two husbands' names, because I preferred them, and in fact I prefer my new married name to my own maiden name. But the paperwork, sheesh, the paperwork!

Jinjo, I lived in West Yorkshire for a while (in the 80's) , seriously the most depressing place I ever lived. I wasn't particularly enlightened myself at the time, but I did find it hard to meet gentle and kind people there. Went back again in 2002 for a visit, not much in the way of change had gone on.

[roxanna222]

I married once. Then became aware and thought why have the state and a religion involved in a commited relationship. So I vowed to not do so again. Well I have changed my thoughts as I might have to in order to be in my love's country, time will tell but would rather avoid it if possible as does he. But again if needed to be with the one I love then ok will do so even if sick that Im giving the state what they want. I want him more to care of that. Cheers

[Anders Lindman]

worrying points you made anders.
maybe i didnt wanna get married in the first place.
When i was young i was adamant i would never get wed.
It didnt suit me,still doesnt,but...we all fall for it.why?

I thought my points were not worrying. If we think of marriage - and many other personal relationships btw - as possessions, then a marriage is never a problem. If we want to keep a possession, we keep it. If not, we drop it. Suffering only comes when we are unclear whether the possession is good or not.

A more problematic situation is when people have children and don't want the children anymore. That problem is a bit more tricky, and I haven't come up with a simple solution for it yet. Probably it's important for children to have their biological parents the first, say two years, but after that, maybe the biological parents are not needed anymore. In fact, maybe it's a stupid idea that parents raise their children, because that creates a form of social inbreeding, and that could be why many teenagers think of their parents as flawed. The parents are not flawed, but the social inbreeding based on rigid animal instincts may be inhumane. :D

[Anders Lindman]

maybe it's a stupid idea that parents raise their children, because that creates a form of social inbreeding

I have to add one important thing here. It's only social inbreeding if the parents are bound by social conditioning. All humans are also connected to the source of creation including intuition, deeper knowing and so forth, and only if a parent is totally mechanically controlled by social conditioning is social inbreeding possible, but even then, the child may be more aligned with deeper knowing than the parents, and so will not fall into the trap of mechanically repeating social programming.

[jinjo5]

I'm undecided about whether to take my new married name or not.
I did take my previous two husbands' names, because I preferred them, and in fact I prefer my new married name to my own maiden name. But the paperwork, sheesh, the paperwork!

Jinjo, I lived in West Yorkshire for a while (in the 80's) , seriously the most depressing place I ever lived. I wasn't particularly enlightened myself at the time, but I did find it hard to meet gentle and kind people there. Went back again in 2002 for a visit, not much in the way of change had gone on.
Im originally from sth yorkshire but ive lived in wakefield for the last 23years and,like you,i find west yorkshire depressing,particularly castleford.
Its like a time warp there,feels like youre back in the 70's.

[notaslave]

I have been married and it worked for 19 of the 21 years and I have lived with a guy in a relationship for a year - on and off - mainly off lol.

It's personal choice and personally I would choose marriage to the right person. But there's some guys dont even get to meet my extended family. Usually my relationships last 3 months, by then I have worked out that I could not live with the person let alone marry them.

I think with age you get more discerning and I havent dated in a year because my life is quite good and I enjoy my own space and personal freedom. Relationships take energy which at the moment I am directing into my local community (womens groups and a newly formed justice group) and other areas like my online work.

[turquoisefyre]

ive never heard of jordam maxwell turq;
Whatever its suppose to signify,i felt really uncomfortable about the thought of wearing a ring that was saying 'i am this,i am that'.........Im my own person,dont need to be told what to do,or be,by anyone.


erm, sorry for mispelling Jordan. But here is a very good and lenghtly presentation "Jordan Maxwell Exposes the Illuminati".
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=8394844811105390386&q=jordan+maxwell
I'm sure this is where I picked up on the "rings" scenario.

and yes, I'm also one of those that don't like to be told held in bondage.
if I should ever get "married", it would have to be to someone who is spiritually developed and there's no feeling of "have to's" but alot of trust...i guess.

[synergy777]

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article1635855.ece

In search of the good wife
Being a perfect parent is now deemed more important than being a good spouse. Our correspondent tries to define what makes the ideal partnerCarol Midgley
The millionaire founder of Kwik-Fit, Sir Tom Farmer, was recently asked to give his best piece of advice for becoming a business success. His answer was simple: find a good wife. “I know it sounds romanticised but it’s true,” he said. “The most important person in my life has been my wife.”

Undoubtedly, many people will find this sentiment romantic. A good many more might be confused. What exactly does a good wife mean these days? Is it someone who stays at home to raise the children, or who shares the financial burden by going out to work? A high-earning glass-ceiling breaker or a yummy mummy who keeps a well-stocked fridge? In February the Office for National Statistics told us that the number of couples choosing to marry has dropped to its lowest for 111 years, and divorce rates remain high. “Good” wives and husbands are apparently thin on the ground. The Good Wife’s Guide , published by Housekeeping Monthly in the 1950s, advised women to put a ribbon in their hair as they served their husbands’ evening meal — a suggestion that most modern women would deem to be insulting — while a 1958 edition of Housewife magazine invited them to take part in a “How good a wife are you?” quiz (pictured above). Yet the guide at least set out exactly what was expected of wives. As the author Marilyn Yalom says in her book A History of the Wife : “To be a wife today, when there are few prescriptions or proscriptions, is a truly creative endeavour.”

Some experts believe that as modern life becomes more demanding, what defines a good partner has not only become obscured but has been pushed down the pecking order. So much emphasis is now placed on being a Good Parent that being a Good Spouse comes a poor third after a) the children and b) the job. Marital conversation is reduced to “Have you got the juice?” “Yes, have you got the wipes?” The advice given by her mother to Jerry Hall that to keep a man a woman must be a maid in the living room, a cook in the kitchen and a whore in the bedroom seems ever more quaint now that housework is increasingly outsourced, food is fast and marriages become increasingly sexless (witness the emergence of books for the sexless marriage with titles such as Okay, So I Don’t Have a Headache, I’m Not in the Mood and For Women Only , which lists techniques that wives use to avoid sex). Has the race to raise the brightest child, get him/ her into the best school, ferry him/her around to the highest number of improving activities actually put marriage under strain?

Val Sampson, an author and a couples counsellor, has launched relightmyfire.org, a website dedicated to helping couples to find their passion again and make each other a priority. She says: “I see a lot of people who have lost sight of fact they are a couple and see each other only as Mum and Dad. Women in particular get a lot of affection energy from a child. They turn to the child for cuddling, touch and sensual needs. They become almost absorbed by the child. It is like a grenade exploding in a marriage.”


When some women become mothers later in life their standards of parenting go up, so they devote even more time to it, often to the detriment of their relationship, she says. “It is great to put lots of energy into it, but often you are taking on an unnecessary role. Once your relationship as a couple starts to disintegrate, it has an immediate impact on your children. But a happy couple makes a happy family. It isn’t all about ferrying Johnny to flute lessons; it is about enjoying a night out on your own occasionally — that’s better for him than being driven to activities.”

So what now constitutes a good wife? Sampson believes it is the way we handle “equality” in the relationship. “We all think that we have moved on from those 1950s roles — until we have a child. People get married with a fantastic view of equality, but don’t think through how that will work in practice. Once you have a baby, you expect it to be the same, but it’s not. Point-scoring isn’t going to work.”

A recent survey of 5,000 people found that a lack of sex and the stress of parenting were among the top reasons cited for arguing within a marriage. Especially the former. A website for men, www.nomarriage.com, illustrates this problem with almost comical misogyny. “My wife is a frigid, shrivelled bitch,” writes one contributor. “Before we were married, we had plenty of sex, but as soon as we passed the six-month mark after our wedding she stopped being interested. My wife only f***s when she ‘feels sexy’. Translation: when I give her jewellery. She is just a withered old bag at the age of 35.” Here’s another: “ sex then was four to five times a week. Now I have a four-year-old son who sleeps in my bed with my wife more nights a week than I do. Sex now maybe once a month.” Borderline demented as some of these comments are (the website has published a book that contains a guide to whether a woman will make a good wife, more of which later), it seems to be a fact that sex within marriage is suffering. Studies have indicated that when men aren’t touched affectionately they become more aggressive, and increasingly don’t want any contact that isn’t sex. At the same time women are encouraged to seek more independence and not be tied to the home, yet there is a heavy modern expectation on a man to be a “good husband”.

Laura Schlessinger’s book, The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands , suggests that in the age of feminism we have paid too much attention to women’s needs and forgotten that men have them, too. We have also developed a notion that a woman who seeks to meet her husband’s needs is subservient, but a husband who fails to meet his wife’s is a pig. “Most of the women who complain that they are not getting what they want from their husbands should stop and look at how disrespectful and disdainful they are of them,” writes Schlessinger.

Anita Jackson, a psychotherapist and the author of Rekindle the Magic in Your Relationship! (rekindlethemagic.com), says: “One problem with equality — which I approve of, by the way — is that we have moved away from the man being the man and the woman the woman, except in terms of the women having the baby and making more of an emotional transfer. There is still something about being in relationships with a man/woman role, so the man is in charge but not controlling and the woman may have her bag full of stuff, be forgetful and change her mind. Because this is how we are and it is what we do.”

So what makes a good spouse? Letting natural roles emerge and not fighting them? “In a way, yes,” says Jackson. “We are being asked to be perfect parents. We can’t be perfect individuals, let alone perfect parents or perfect spouses. If we strive for perfection, we lay ourselves open to failure. If we try to be the best we can be, that’s enough.”

Some take a rather more extreme view. An e-book published by the nomarriage.com website, written by a man, defines a good wife as one who wasn’t brought up with Western values. “Pick a woman to marry who will be a GOOD WIFE and KNOWS HOW to be a happy, successful wife, and KNOWS HOW to help you be a better husband,” it says. “[B]Pick a woman from a culture that encourages this. In other words, DON’T marry an American/Western woman. They are much, much harder to be married to, simply because they have been trained to NOT make any effort to be good wives. They have been trained to focus exclusively on their own needs, and to completely ignore yours. They have been trained in a thousand techniques for making it all ‘your fault’. Not fun. Being married is damned near impossible anyway. No need to make it harder.”

Hysterical though this viewpoint is, might we be making things harder than they need to be? Denise Knowles, a Relate counsellor, says she has to hammer home to couples the fact that making time for each other is a neccessity, not an act of selfishness. “There is a misconception that to be good parents the couple has to be sacrificed,” she says. “I often find myself asking people, ‘What happened to the couple here?’ Everything seems to be pivoted around the children and work.” So what is her view of a good wife? “One who can offer support when needed, but can also receive support and ask for it.”

Margaret Ramage, a sexual and relationship psychotherapist, believes that we can sometimes become too hung up on the concept of “serving”. “I don’t see that serving each other is neccessarily a bad thing. It is an act of love,” she says. “As long as it feels equal, so what? If you are subservient on a Tuesday and he is subservient on a Thursday, what does it matter? We are so busy standing on our rights sometimes that we forget important things. Doing the ironing is an act of love, as is putting out the compost.”

She adds that in striving to be good parents, we forget that the best parents are often those who are genuinely happy together. “To raise children with love, there has to be a strong bond of love between parents,” she says. “It is that love between the parents that sustains them. If it isn’t there, the child misses something. If people neglect the nurturing they need to give as adults, their parenting will break down in the end.”