NEW WORLD ORDER explained for religious/freemasons

[thetonic]

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

:eek::eek::eek:

[thetonic]

Questions ? Comments ?.. Feel free , Im always happy to reply:)

[jacob sladder]

Well, interesting stuff, sounds as if narrated by Paul Mckenna - - if it was all true, and the 'Illuminati' is so entrenched into all aspects of life over the past x number of years: What could one man, group of men or even nation of men do about it?

You can 'inform' the masses all you like - some will believe it, some won't. Very few will take action. And that action would have minimal impact on an order with such apparently far reaching tentacles into world society as claimed in the film.

As far as this current 'Illuminati' organisation is concerned - if it should exist - I am not convinced it has connections to Freemasonry. It's an easy claim to make, but where is any concrete proof? You can show a hotch-potch of symbols al you like, it doesn't mean zilch.

In one part of the film the voice over talks about the 'Royal Arch' as if it is a secretive / exclusive Order. There are hundreds of Holy Royal Arch Chapters here in England (to give it it's correct title), and the conclusions about it's 'solar cult' connotation is just something I have never heard of.
How do I know? I am a Holy Royal Arch Mason. It's Ritual concerns certain discoveries made during work on a building, and what that discovery means to an individual.

The NWO - if it exists - I feel is financial, and would not need Masonic mumbo-jumbo to cloak it's aims, there are more effective ways of 'ruling' the world through the media and social engineering. :(

[boots]

Well, interesting stuff, sounds as if narrated by Paul Mckenna - - if it was all true, and the 'Illuminati' is so entrenched into all aspects of life over the past x number of years: What could one man, group of men or even nation of men do about it?

You can 'inform' the masses all you like - some will believe it, some won't. Very few will take action. And that action would have minimal impact on an order with such apparently far reaching tentacles into world society as claimed in the film.

As far as this current 'Illuminati' organisation is concerned - if it should exist - I am not convinced it has connections to Freemasonry. It's an easy claim to make, but where is any concrete proof? You can show a hotch-potch of symbols al you like, it doesn't mean zilch.

In one part of the film the voice over talks about the 'Royal Arch' as if it is a secretive / exclusive Order. There are hundreds of Holy Royal Arch Chapters here in England (to give it it's correct title), and the conclusions about it's 'solar cult' connotation is just something I have never heard of.
How do I know? I am a Holy Royal Arch Mason. It's Ritual concerns certain discoveries made during work on a building, and what that discovery means to an individual.

The NWO - if it exists - I feel is financial, and would not need Masonic mumbo-jumbo to cloak it's aims, there are more effective ways of 'ruling' the world through the media and social engineering. :(

This is the David Icke Forum, jacob sladder it would be nice if you came here to seek truth and not just defend Freemasons.

The NWO does exist it has been spoken about by a lot of by presidents and prime ministers for a long time.

Read any David Icke books?

[thetonic]

Well, interesting stuff, sounds as if narrated by Paul Mckenna - - if it was all true, and the 'Illuminati' is so entrenched into all aspects of life over the past x number of years: What could one man, group of men or even nation of men do about it?

If what was all true? That blue lodge freemasonry is a sham and you dont have a good grasp on current world politics and most of the history you think you know is a lie?... Hmm:rolleyes:

[QUOTE]You can 'inform' the masses all you like - some will believe it, some won't. Very few will take action. And that action would have minimal impact on an order with such apparently far reaching tentacles into world society as claimed in the film.


This sounds as if your trying to discourage people from seeking truth? Have you conviently forgotten what forum youre on? Just so happy and cozy here in the Freemason threads eh?


As far as this current 'Illuminati' organisation is concerned - if it should exist - I am not convinced it has connections to Freemasonry. It's an easy claim to make, but where is any concrete proof? You can show a hotch-potch of symbols al you like, it doesn't mean zilch.


Hey shit for brains , just because you cant see it , doesnt mean others cant. The founding fathers were members of the crown, and most of them initiates into one order or another. Not something they teach in the schoolbooks is it? Wake da fuck up

In one part of the film the voice over talks about the 'Royal Arch' as if it is a secretive / exclusive Order. There are hundreds of Holy Royal Arch Chapters here in England (to give it it's correct title), and the conclusions about it's 'solar cult' connotation is just something I have never heard of.
How do I know? I am a Holy Royal Arch Mason. It's Ritual concerns certain discoveries made during work on a building, and what that discovery means to an individual.

Yeah , Freemasonry has nothing to do with Sun worship:rolleyes:

The NWO - if it exists - I feel is financial, and would not need Masonic mumbo-jumbo to cloak it's aims, there are more effective ways of 'ruling' the world through the media and social engineering. :(
The fact that youre still questioning whether or not the NWO exists displays your complete ignorance . You masons wear it on your sleeves. Happy little sheep adepts.

[jacob sladder]

[QUOTE]

If what was all true? That blue lodge freemasonry is a sham and you dont have a good grasp on current world politics and most of the history you think you know is a lie?... Hmm:rolleyes:



This sounds as if your trying to discourage people from seeking truth? Have you conviently forgotten what forum youre on? Just so happy and cozy here in the Freemason threads eh?



Hey shit for brains , just because you cant see it , doesnt mean others cant. The founding fathers were members of the crown, and most of them initiates into one order or another. Not something they teach in the schoolbooks is it? Wake da fuck up



Yeah , Freemasonry has nothing to do with Sun worship:rolleyes:

The fact that youre still questioning whether or not the NWO exists displays your complete ignorance . You masons wear it on your sleeves. Happy little sheep adepts.

I'm sorry I bothered having an opinion of the film offered; that so obviously does not fit in with your bigotry - you abusive twat.

[thetonic]

[QUOTE=thetonic;344691]

I'm sorry I bothered having an opinion of the film offered; that so obviously does not fit in with your bigotry - you abusive twat.

Sorry but im tired of masons playing coy , acting like they dont or cant see whats going on in this world . Youre on the DAVID ICKE FORUMS ! Look around a little and get clued in for fuccks sake

[jacob sladder]

This is the David Icke Forum, jacob sladder it would be nice if you came here to seek truth and not just defend Freemasons.

The NWO does exist it has been spoken about by a lot of by presidents and prime ministers for a long time.

Read any David Icke books?

Boots, a more reasonable post from you. Yes, I have read D,I's books, saw him back on the Wogan show in the 90's; and have seen various documentaries since: He lost all his credibility with me when he said he was the son of God, and along with this - the Reptillian nonsense and shapeshifters?!
Sounds like a rehash of the 'V' series and hopes to ensnare the Sci Fi fams among the population in spending their money on D.I products. His 'world view' seems to have a bit of everything for everyone - so his books/ films/ talks appeal to a broad audience - much in the same way as L. Ron Hubbard dreamt up the Scientology nonsense to make some money.
Honestly my feelings about D.I is that he does it to make a living.

Now, if the idiot who was so abusive to my post had read it properly, he would have noted that I do not discount that some form of collusion among the rich and powerful exists - and always has done. What I do dispute is that it is connected with Freemasonry. The rich and powerful would have no need of such an organisation - why not just meet anyway? Instead of bothering with Rituals / grand titles and ceremonial? What would be the point??

Yes, I defend Freemasonry, I have been a Mason for 23 years - and I enjoy it - a good night out and helps raise some money for the needy. I am not rich, not powerful nor have I been helped in life by Masonic 'favours'.
But, I am a better person spiritually and morally for becoming a Mason.

One last thing: What is this about a 'Solar Cult'? As if it's some sort of accusation? I don't get it.
If people wish to worship the Sun, a chap who was around 2008 years ago, or anything else, thats fine by me! As long as it harms none in it's intention all well and good. :)

[darketernal]

Boots, a more reasonable post from you. Yes, I have read D,I's books, saw him back on the Wogan show in the 90's; and have seen various documentaries since: He lost all his credibility with me when he said he was the son of God, and along with this - the Reptillian nonsense and shapeshifters?!
Sounds like a rehash of the 'V' series and hopes to ensnare the Sci Fi fams among the population in spending their money on D.I products. His 'world view' seems to have a bit of everything for everyone - so his books/ films/ talks appeal to a broad audience - much in the same way as L. Ron Hubbard dreamt up the Scientology nonsense to make some money.
Honestly my feelings about D.I is that he does it to make a living.

Now, if the idiot who was so abusive to my post had read it properly, he would have noted that I do not discount that some form of collusion among the rich and powerful exists - and always has done. What I do dispute is that it is connected with Freemasonry. The rich and powerful would have no need of such an organisation - why not just meet anyway? Instead of bothering with Rituals / grand titles and ceremonial? What would be the point??

Yes, I defend Freemasonry, I have been a Mason for 23 years - and I enjoy it - a good night out and helps raise some money for the needy. I am not rich, not powerful nor have I been helped in life by Masonic 'favours'.
But, I am a better person spiritually and morally for becoming a Mason.

One last thing: What is this about a 'Solar Cult'? As if it's some sort of accusation? I don't get it.
If people wish to worship the Sun, a chap who was around 2008 years ago, or anything else, thats fine by me! As long as it harms none in it's intention all well and good. :)


If DI has no credibility with you for talking about subjects you feel are too far out to be accepted, for those of us with real life experiences with some of these things, should the fact that he is one of the people talking about these things be a clear sign that he has more knowledge than you? I've personally seen a reptilian face to face in my childhood, and then see David Icke talking about these beings, while you dismiss it as Sci-fi, so then the obvious question becomes, "If DI is correct on one major issue and you are not, who has credibility on the subject matter of freemasonry?", at least from my perspective of experience?

No member of your order has any credibility here. Let us believe that freemasonry is run by vampiric, child molesting reptilians in peace, and we will let you conduct your sun worship rituals in peace, inside your private clubs as long as we don't catch you sneaking childen in... then we can all live happy peaceful lives. Good day sir.

[eternal_spirit]

This is the David Icke Forum, jacob sladder it would be nice if you came here to seek truth and not just defend Freemasons.

The NWO does exist it has been spoken about by a lot of by presidents and prime ministers for a long time.

Read any David Icke books?

Spot on :)

[intruder]

Thanks for the video thetonic!!

brief images of Manly P. Hall's "The Secret Teachings of All Ages" appears in the vid. It was William Cooper (brief image of Bill in the vid too!!)who suggested to me to acquire that book. It's a brilliant study with many things to be learned, discerned...and some spurned. It was this book that completely discouraged my 1/2 hearted interest in joining freemasonry.

It repulses me to see Harry S Truman in his masonic regalia. What a hatred of humanity that man must have had.

[jacob sladder]

Have been perusing David Icke on You Tube, and found some of what he says that I agree with (especially about 'Repeaters')!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[thelonious]

It's a brilliant study with many things to be learned, discerned...and some spurned. It was this book that completely discouraged my 1/2 hearted interest in joining freemasonry.

Just curious: if it was a "brilliant study", why did it discourage your interest in Masonry? Especially since only one short chapter is dedicated to Freemasonry?

It repulses me to see Harry S Truman in his masonic regalia. What a hatred of humanity that man must have had.

Since I consider Brother Truman the greatest US President of the 20th century, it instills me with great pride to see him in his regalia.

[thelonious]

This is the David Icke Forum, jacob sladder it would be nice if you came here to seek truth and not just defend Freemasons.

The exact same argument could be used against your own post. It would ve nice if you came here to seek tryth and not just promote mindless anti-Masonic propaganda.

[intruder]

Just curious: if it was a "brilliant study", why did it discourage your interest in Masonry? Especially since only one short chapter is dedicated to Freemasonry?



Since I consider Brother Truman the greatest US President of the 20th century, it instills me with great pride to see him in his regalia.

Yeah, you would enjoy a Truman show, the failed haberdasher. do Hiroshima and Nagasaki get you hard? more "power" to you!!


the protocols of the learned elders of zion are also a "brilliant study" of machiavellian ideals, but I have no desire to join that order either. real or imagined. not that Hall's expose of "Secret Teachings" is machiavellian or anything. But I mistakenly thought that freemasonry actually had something to teach me about it, but I was wrong. as %99.9 of the masons that I have met showed no interest in the work of a 33rd degree mason. could NOT hold a discussion on kabbalah. and seemed more interested in some imagined prestige.

"ooooh, i bet you're wonderin' how I knew, 'bout your plans to make me blue...."

[intruder]

I wonder if issuing the order to drop the bomb was the "great work" of the 33rd president of the united states.perhaps it wasn't a hatred of humanity regarding Truman's show. just blatant race hatred.

president harry s. truman also knew that the emperor of Japan had accepted the terms of an unconditional surrender 19 days before the first atomic bomb was dropped. truman and his staff were cognizant and fully aware that the Japanese wanted to surrender; soviet Leader joseph stalin knew it; and British Prime Minister winston churchill and his staff knew it also. They all knew, yet they chose to ignore the Japanese emperor’s official request to accept a Japanese surrender.

and that's all I have to say about that little snot nosed puppet-punk.

[thetonic]

Since I consider Brother Truman the greatest US President of the 20th century, it instills me with great pride to see him in his regalia.[/QUOTE]

LOL http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gif That says it all

[thetonic]

Have been perusing David Icke on You Tube, and found some of what he says that I agree with (especially about 'Repeaters')!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Good , Im glad that you enjoyed that .. I hear one of the forums junior masons (thelonious) is an up and coming repeater, er i mean reporter;)

[thelucifer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VISC2El5kuI

:eek::eek::eek:



Great video.

For years I have been alone and of very recently, discovered DI and site and for the first time felt among some who do care and are trying to see through the muck.

Thanks thetonic and others.


I have said for years how Paul the apostle mentions there being 3 levels of understanding in the Bible (hence Occult) and I say there is a 4th (4 = earth works) it being the "Plan".
I just posted on the "ask a mason" thread and spelled out the end result being as told in the Satan on a "hill" story being about Washington DC design layout etc, told of a very long time ago, and to understand the Bible is from much older religions, all of which Freemasonry is.


The DC beast is Satan (as spoken of in the Bible/plan), the Antichrist.

Some might ask, if its the Antichrist what about the "false prophet" ?

The false prophet (the man to come as Elijah) worked with George Washington and Benjamin Franklin and friends in 1775, in regards of the design of the flag (the "image of the beast") and was only refered to as the "Professor".
I submit he was called the Professor because, it is He who professed much.

May 19, 1780 meteor showers (astrology), stars falling (meteors literally and Men spiritually), blood red moon, sky scrolled over/darkened (Clouds) the whole thing.


The begining years of the USA are extremely serious, and for me, plain to see.


Trying to keep it short.



This is what the Plan looks like via a map.


http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee60/thelucifer_rp/img1E.jpg

[thelonious]

I wonder if issuing the order to drop the bomb was the "great work" of the 33rd president of the united states.perhaps it wasn't a hatred of humanity regarding Truman's show. just blatant race hatred.

president harry s. truman also knew that the emperor of Japan had accepted the terms of an unconditional surrender 19 days before the first atomic bomb was dropped.

Hirohito, Emperor of Japan, had zero political power, and no authority to surrender. All terms of surrender were refused by Hideki Tojo, Japan's Fascist dictator.

You will forgive me if I don't share your sympathies. The Japanese were responsible for hundreds of thousands civilian casualities, not only Americans, but Chinese, Koreans, and many other groups. They were butchers, torturers, and sadists. My uncle walked in the Baton Death March, I'm well aware of who they were.

Did the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki produce civilian casualties? Yes, they did. But they also stopped the Japanese from inflicting more casualties on others. They started it, and karma can be a bitch.

[darketernal]

Did the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki produce civilian casualties? Yes, they did. But they also stopped the Japanese from inflicting more casualties on others. They started it, and karma can be a bitch.

Amazing... I can see that the spiritual enlightenment you've received at the lodge has truely made you a better person. A little of the true colors of you and your cohorts on this forum just slipped out.

[boots]

The exact same argument could be used against your own post. It would ve nice if you came here to seek tryth and not just promote mindless anti-Masonic propaganda. 28-04-2008 06:09 AM

Where did I say or imply that in my post, thelonious,:confused:

Jumping to conclusions there fella,

What I will say though is that you are part of a society that is compartmentalized and you will never truly know what the higher degree's actually think or do, that does not mean that I attack or dislike every Freemason on the planet.

Freemasons are charitable, (and have bucket loads of money) GOOD. So are a lot of groups, makes me wonder why there has been no change in the world regarding poverty etc.and with the sacred geometry that the mason know?
What has this society really done, I see no free energy devices put out by them. Why, because the higher powers in Mansonary just want us to go around in circles just like the Illuminati do.

We all want the world to change for the better and it is up to those in these groups (not just Mason) to make those changes from the grass root's in there own societies.

That's the truth.

[chrism]

Hi Boots,

What I will say though is that you are part of a society that is compartmentalized and you will never truly know what the higher degree's actually think or do, that does not mean that I attack or dislike every Freemason on the planet.

Would you agree that everyone is part of that compartmentalised society, though? If so, can anyone truly know what is going on in 'the higher degrees' at all, other than those who take part in them?

I am glad you are levelling this at individuals rather than the freemasons in general, because as it has been stated many times on this and other forums, the vast majority of masons have not seen and do not believe that something corrupt or wrong is going on at the highest levels.

It is easy to mistrust those with power, and in many cases people are right to do so, and therefore many people have a poor opinion of masonry, which I think is a shame. I am an upstanding citizen, I know nothing of these 'higher degrees' [these are appendant orders, not a continuation of the 3 degrees in standard freemasonry*] acting in a corrupt manner (otherwise I would do something about it) and fail to see how I can be acting as a pawn for them.

I do, however, understand (and sometimes feel) the first pangs of concern when I read posts about masonry as a corrupting influence - there can be no smoke without fire etc - but based on my personal experiences of masons and masonry this can be overcome.

As for higher powers wanting us to go round in circles - that sounds about right! on every level both intellectually and spiritually we seem to be on a roundabout, doomed to repeat the same mistakes again and again. Our leaders (political and religious) seem more concerned with keeping power than with governing or guiding the spiritually needy, and although despicable I do see this as part of human nature.

Unfortunately I do not see Masonry or Masons as having a large part to play in this within their masonic capacities. People do keep referring to individual masons and pointing the finger at them, saying 'well they are a mason, and they did this...' but were they acting for Masonry or for themselves? Since no one individual can speak for freemasonry as a whole, I would say that they were speaking for themselves, and although this may reflect poorly on masonry in our choice of brethren, as a whole we are a nice bunch of guys trying to help a few others.

In the meanwhile, conjecture and rumour have taken the place of rational thought, fact and evidence in many places - by the acts of a few, masons are cast down as conspiracists and social criminals.

I hope you don't find this too defensive, after all we are all here to learn and discuss these matters.

Kind regards

Chrism

[*to explain briefly - the degrees after 'Raising' - the third degree - take place not in craft masonry but in other orders, called appendant orders. Freemasonry is a prerequisite for membership, and they do follow some of the same ritualistic formulas, but they are not strictly 'freemasonry'. Therefore the number of degrees (actually somewhere in the thousands - there are a lot of appendant orders) does not reflect status or seniority.]

[thelonious]

Amazing... I can see that the spiritual enlightenment you've received at the lodge has truely made you a better person. A little of the true colors of you and your cohorts on this forum just slipped out.

Part of spiritual enlightenment concerns understanding the law of cause and effect. Karma applies not only to individuals but nations as well. Furthermore, it boggles my mind that you condemn Truman but seem to want to give Japan a free pass on its war crimes. *They* were the aggressors, not us.

It is also interesting that I'm finding that the anti-Masons here seem to have pro-Fascist sympathies. This says a lot about the anti-Masonic mindset in general. Only a week or so ago, another critic of Masonry was on here telling us about them big bad Jews, and eulogizing that poor misunderstood Hitler.

:rolleyes:

[thelonious]

What I will say though is that you are part of a society that is compartmentalized and you will never truly know what the higher degree's actually think or do

How is that? I hold the higher degrees. And here in the US, any Mason who wants the higher degrees can have them, all he has to do is apply for them, and show up at the Temple on the day the degrees will be performed. Your argument about compartmentalization therefore doesn't really hold any water.

Freemasons are charitable, (and have bucket loads of money) GOOD. So are a lot of groups, makes me wonder why there has been no change in the world regarding poverty etc.and with the sacred geometry that the mason know?

Because, obviously, Freemasons do *not* "have bucket loads of money". I don't know where you guys get this stuff, but it's not reality.

Secondly, Sacred Geometry is a great course of study, but it has nothing to do with world poverty.

What has this society really done, I see no free energy devices put out by them. Why, because the higher powers in Mansonary just want us to go around in circles just like the Illuminati do.

What on earth do fraternal clubs like Freemasonry have to do with "free energy devises"? Hell, if you have free energy devises you want to give away, we Masons would like to have them just like everybody else.

[barney_rubble]

What on earth do fraternal clubs like Freemasonry have to do with "free energy devises"? Hell, if you have free energy devises you want to give away, we Masons would like to have them just like everybody else.

I agree lonious.

Most of the mason I know drive gasoline (petrol) powered vehicles. And those with "higher" degrees that i know persionally (usualy the more elderlyones) drive the most inefficient vehicles of all. You know those big 'caddies' with the factory protective plastic still on the seats.

Me personally I am trying to get a solar heater working for my pool. If I get it working so it will raise the temperature more than 2 degrees (no pun intended) I will gladly share my plans.

FYI: This will not be free energy I still have to pump the water through the collector - so it's cheap energy

[darketernal]

Part of spiritual enlightenment concerns understanding the law of cause and effect. Karma applies not only to individuals but nations as well. Furthermore, it boggles my mind that you condemn Truman but seem to want to give Japan a free pass on its war crimes. *They* were the aggressors, not us.

It is also interesting that I'm finding that the anti-Masons here seem to have pro-Fascist sympathies. This says a lot about the anti-Masonic mindset in general. Only a week or so ago, another critic of Masonry was on here telling us about them big bad Jews, and eulogizing that poor misunderstood Hitler.

:rolleyes:

I'm very familiar with the laws of cause and effect. Nations are a creation of the human imagination, and certainly are not subject to the laws of karma. The effect was action taken by people against other people. Now enlightened one, it would seem your powers are weak indeed, and perhaps they lodge teaches its lower initiates far less than I had though. It is interesting that I have been accused now of being pro-Japan as well as pro-Hitler, when I'm 1/4th Jewish, and two men who helped raise me fought the Japanesse in WWII. My grandfather, as well as my great-uncle, whom was a Pearl Harbor survivor. Both of whom were 33rd degree Scottish Rite.

I'm not pro-fascist, or even anti-mason. I'm anti-war. I'm having difficulty understanding how anyone can glorify a man who signed off on having a nuclear weapons detonated on cities full of innocent civilians who just wanted to live their lives.

I would love to get the reactions of the rest of the high and esteemed brothers on Truman, former president and mason, and him being the man who signed off on this nuclear attack. How does this fit into the overall spiritual views of freemasonry. I'll go out on a limb and assume that Thelonious's view on this is unique and other masons have their own views. Please share them.

[thelonious]

I'm very familiar with the laws of cause and effect. Nations are a creation of the human imagination, and certainly are not subject to the laws of karma.

Over time, nations acquire a type of individuality...even a "soul", for lack of a better word. For example, a noted American Buddhist Zen monk and scholar wrote recently that the USA continues to have so many problems in part because of its tragic karmic ties to Vietnam, which IMO ios a correct assessment.



I'm not pro-fascist, or even anti-mason. I'm anti-war.

I'm anti-war too, but that doesn't mean I'm prepared to lay down peacefully and be enslaved. You focus on what we did to win the war, but seem to ignore why were fighting in the first place. Then, you blame Truman for not accepting Hirohito's surrender when Hirohito's surrender wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

I'm having difficulty understanding how anyone can glorify a man who signed off on having a nuclear weapons detonated on cities full of innocent civilians who just wanted to live their lives.

Because without a full and unconditional immediate surrender, there would have been a myriad of more American casualties in the South Pacific. I don't know how familiar you are with WWII history, but American GI's sustained their highest casualties while "island hopping" in an attempt to corner the Japanese. Tojo made this his last bet, and thought if he could turn the islands into a bloodbath, then Truman would eventually order a withdrawal, and establish a cease-fire and truce, thus making it a stalemate.

Truman was not prepared to allow the Japanese Empire to walk away free, and pointedly told them so. They were ordered to surrender unconditionally, and allow the Allies to occupy their conquered territory. They refused, so Truman had a duty to his oath as President to end the war without any further American casualties.

I would love to get the reactions of the rest of the high and esteemed brothers on Truman, former president and mason, and him being the man who signed off on this nuclear attack.

I suggest Brother Allen Roberts' excellent book "Brother Truman".

How does this fit into the overall spiritual views of freemasonry.

It has nothing to do with Freemasonry. It has everything to do with an aggressive foreign power that had butchered our citizens, launched pre-emptive war, and refused to stop killing our people when given the final warning.

[elirien]

I have nothing much to tell about this video. Its very good prepared (besides the pronounciation of Nikolai Tesla's name lol) and includes some very good ideas and details.

But the topic on the other hand is utter chaos. I mean I don't want to sound off like some overdosed hippie again but is it really that hard to not sound off like some racist fuck. "THIS IS THE DAVID ICKE FORUM". I mean come on. Fundamentalist Muslims over here sound that way. Mellow down people. I'm pretty much anti-masonry (and couldn't give a flying fuck if people thought another way) but bashing individuals in a debate is seriously wrong.

Other then that I liked chrisms post on the whole thing. I despised the whole "good thing we bombed Japanese civilians" attitude. I mean do you people really believe that the U.S.A. would be enslaved by a country that is probably tenth of its size? I mean I'm not a WWII history major but I think that could be avoided by not bombing two towns. Well thats another topic so I will leave this topic right here.

Great post. Thanks.

[thelonious]

I mean do you people really believe that the U.S.A. would be enslaved by a country that is probably tenth of its size? I mean I'm not a WWII history major but I think that could be avoided by not bombing two towns.

Actually, Japan theoretically could have invaded California and occupied the United States immediately following Pearl Harbor. Our entire Pacific defense had been wiped out.

The Japanese were first concerned with the Phillipines, so there was no immediate attack on the US East Coast. However, documents used as evidence at Nuremberg showed an Axis plan to invade, occupy, and split the United States following the surrender of the UK and USSR.

[chrism]

I despised the whole "good thing we bombed Japanese civilians" attitude.

That wasn't me!

I mean do you people really believe that the U.S.A. would be enslaved by a country that is probably tenth of its size?

(*Cough* - British Empire...)

:)

[elirien]

That wasn't me!



(*Cough* - British Empire...)

:)

Don't get me wrong. I didn't mean that you said that. That was thelonius :D

Well you kinda got me there with the British Empire, but that is still open to debate since there are many variables. I didn't mean it was impossible. Although I think it is impossible for the Japanese of the WWII period to enslave America. They bought their arms from the Brits damn it or am I misinformed here.

[boots]

Because, obviously, Freemasons do *not* "have bucket loads of money". I don't know where you guys get this stuff, but it's not reality.

In your "club" there are people with a lot of money and power (ie Presidents and captains of industries) there are privy to information that the general public don't know. you should look around a bit and seek the truth.

but alas you are just a shit kicker and know nothing.:rolleyes:

Would you agree that everyone is part of that compartmentalised society, though? If so, can anyone truly know what is going on in 'the higher degrees' at all, other than those who take part in them?

I am glad you are levelling this at individuals rather than the freemasons in general, because as it has been stated many times on this and other forums, the vast majority of masons have not seen and do not believe that something corrupt or wrong is going on at the highest levels.

It is easy to mistrust those with power, and in many cases people are right to do so, and therefore many people have a poor opinion of masonry, which I think is a shame. I am an upstanding citizen, I know nothing of these 'higher degrees' [these are appendant orders, not a continuation of the 3 degrees in standard freemasonry*] acting in a corrupt manner (otherwise I would do something about it) and fail to see how I can be acting as a pawn for them.

I do, however, understand (and sometimes feel) the first pangs of concern when I read posts about masonry as a corrupting influence - there can be no smoke without fire etc - but based on my personal experiences of masons and masonry this can be overcome.

As for higher powers wanting us to go round in circles - that sounds about right! on every level both intellectually and spiritually we seem to be on a roundabout, doomed to repeat the same mistakes again and again. Our leaders (political and religious) seem more concerned with keeping power than with governing or guiding the spiritually needy, and although despicable I do see this as part of human nature.

Unfortunately I do not see Masonry or Masons as having a large part to play in this within their masonic capacities. People do keep referring to individual masons and pointing the finger at them, saying 'well they are a mason, and they did this...' but were they acting for Masonry or for themselves? Since no one individual can speak for freemasonry as a whole, I would say that they were speaking for themselves, and although this may reflect poorly on masonry in our choice of brethren, as a whole we are a nice bunch of guys trying to help a few others.

In the meanwhile, conjecture and rumour have taken the place of rational thought, fact and evidence in many places - by the acts of a few, masons are cast down as conspiracists and social criminals.

I hope you don't find this too defensive, after all we are all here to learn and discuss these matters.

Kind regards

Chrism

Good post and well thought out,

Only those that have the power, Presidents etc.

[elirien]

Actually, Japan theoretically could have invaded California and occupied the United States immediately following Pearl Harbor. Our entire Pacific defense had been wiped out.

The Japanese were first concerned with the Phillipines, so there was no immediate attack on the US East Coast. However, documents used as evidence at Nuremberg showed an Axis plan to invade, occupy, and split the United States following the surrender of the UK and USSR.

Sorry. I saw chris' post before yours. Well if you talk pearl harbor thats again open to debate, since America was warned of the Japanese attack. But you said theoretically so I guess theoretically that could have happened.

Well the Axis could have planned that but it didn't work now did it?

[thelonious]

In your "club" there are people with a lot of money and power (ie Presidents and captains of industries) there are privy to information that the general public don't know. you should look around a bit and seek the truth.

There are lots of clubs that have that sort of people. Big deal. The members of Rotary International limit their membership to professionals, while Freemasonry does not. Therefore, the average Rotarian has a helluva lot more money than the average Mason.

but alas you are just a shit kicker and know nothing.:rolleyes:

Right back atcha, slick.

[thelonious]

Sorry. I saw chris' post before yours. Well if you talk pearl harbor thats again open to debate, since America was warned of the Japanese attack. But you said theoretically so I guess theoretically that could have happened.

I'm not sure what you mean by "America was warned of the Japanese attack". It is true that FDR had been screaming to Congress for months telling them they needed to do something. But it is also true that Japan was stalling, pretending to be negotiating for peace while secretly preparing for the Pearl Harbor invasion.

Well the Axis could have planned that but it didn't work now did it?

No, it didn't. Thanks to guys like Truman.

[elirien]

I'm not sure what you mean by "America was warned of the Japanese attack".


well if you like mainstream info then i would recommend this:
Events leading to the attack on Pearl Harbor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the part lack of preparedness is the one I was referring to. If you are into non main stream info (which I expect you to be as a mason) you could look it up in google again. there are lots of interesting sites and documentaries on the subject. But since history is written by the winners who knows what the hell happened.

Truman isn't human. Thats my last idea about the man. There is nothing and I mean nothing that could validate such action. It is utterly malevolent, evil and disgusting.

[stoney268]

I always thought that Japan did that attack because they didn't had another choice... I mean, what would you do as a country when USA puts an embargo on you without a valid reason? But again it doesn't surprise me... USA can be so innocent, at least that's how they are like to be seen! And badly enough most people believe that crap.

And now on topic, I don't think freemasons are rulling this world... I think that the rulers of this world use freemasonry for their own benefits ;) Freemasons are the old guild craft, so probably they use sorcery for their own goals... Although
I'm not sure when these teachings are "available" for masons... But probably thelonious can tell that ;)

[boots]

There are lots of clubs that have that sort of people. Big deal. The members of Rotary International limit their membership to professionals, while Freemasonry does not. Therefore, the average Rotarian has a helluva lot more money than the average Mason.
BULL!!

Back to the point. Why have Freemasons not explored the Free energy technology that is out there?(Presidents who are mason's) And yes it is a big deal. I'd appreciate it if you stuck to fact we are discussing aspects of Freemasonry and not detract this discussion to other groups. BTW Rotary international do not limit there members to professionals.

Oh yeah, I'm a shit kicker just like you, the difference being I dont get stuck in ideologies and do seek and explore other modes of thinking thanks to David Icke.

[eternal_spirit]

Part of spiritual enlightenment concerns understanding the law of cause and effect. Karma applies not only to individuals but nations as well. Furthermore, it boggles my mind that you condemn Truman but seem to want to give Japan a free pass on its war crimes. *They* were the aggressors, not us.

It is also interesting that I'm finding that the anti-Masons here seem to have pro-Fascist sympathies. This says a lot about the anti-Masonic mindset in general. Only a week or so ago, another critic of Masonry was on here telling us about them big bad Jews, and eulogizing that poor misunderstood Hitler.

:rolleyes:
...............

That's a joke, you're the one who said you admired lenin and trotsky, Crowley..... and I got the better of you on a number of occasions posted evidence to suggest Trotsky was a Freemason and that the Communists ( Freemason engineered and created Communism ) murderd millions more than any other ism and regime in the entire history of the human race. EDIT btw most of the Bolshevik Communist leaders were Jews.

[boots]

And now on topic, I don't think freemasons are rulling this world... I think that the rulers of this world use freemasonry for their own benefits ;) Freemasons are the old guild craft, so probably they use sorcery for their own goals...


Your are right, they don't rule the world, the real controllers are to smart to ever be seen.

So those that are compartmentalize without an open mind can't see what really is going on in there group. It's a pity because they could begin to change things from the inside.

[boots]

That's a joke, you're the one who said you admired lenin and trotsky, Crowley

If thelonous said that then he's SICK the poor soul.

[eternal_spirit]

This is one of my previous posts in one of our debates

That's why so many millions of Christians were murdered at least 20 - 60 million. I forgot to add, the Bankers ( Rotchilds etc Elite Masons)will fund both sides in a War, it doesn't matter to the Elite, they'll remove who they want even if it's a lower level Mason, even sacrafice some of their own for a greater cause, like the same Bankers funded Hilter and the Allies, the lower rank and file Jew are nothing to the Elite. They're just cannon fodder/slaves...... same as the lower classess of any Country/Nation.

Jewish encyclopedias

Jewish Encyclopedia

Karl Marx, the founder of the communism, was a Jew. And as Jewish Encyclopedia describes, Jews have been prominent in the modern socialist movement, and the teachings of Marx had a ”Talmudic Bent”:
”Jews have been prominently identified with the modern Socialist movement from its very inception.
[...]
The spread of the socialistic faith among the German colony at Paris was therefore bound to convert Jew and Gentile alike. Two of those early Jewish converts, Karl Marx and Ferdinand Lassalle, were to become commanding figures in the history of socialism: one as the father of scientific socialism, the other as the founder of the German Socialist party. Marx, the son of a Jewish lawyer of Treves, numbered among his ancestors many famous rabbis. The chapters on the theory of value in his principal work, "Das Kapital," suggest by their subtle analysis an inherited Talmudical bent, though his own education was uninfluenced by Jewish studies, the family having been converted to the Lutheran Church during his early childhood.
[...]
While in Germany socialism has attracted individual Jews, in Russia it has become a movement of the Jewish masses. ”
(Jewish Encyclopedia, 1905, article: 'Socialism', p. 418-419.)

http://www.terrorism-illuminati.com/...d_war_one.html

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=324448&postcount=58

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=315826&postcount=43

[boots]

This is one of my previous posts in one of our debates

That's why so many millions of Christians were murdered at least 20 - 60 million. I forgot to add, the Bankers ( Rotchilds etc Elite Masons)will fund both sides in a War, it doesn't matter to the Elite, they'll remove who they want even if it's a lower level Mason, even sacrafice some of their own for a greater cause, like the same Bankers funded Hilter and the Allies, the lower rank and file Jew are nothing to the Elite. They're just cannon fodder/slaves...... same as the lower classess of any Country/Nation.

Jewish encyclopedias

Jewish Encyclopedia

Karl Marx, the founder of the communism, was a Jew. And as Jewish Encyclopedia describes, Jews have been prominent in the modern socialist movement, and the teachings of Marx had a ”Talmudic Bent”:
”Jews have been prominently identified with the modern Socialist movement from its very inception.
[...]
The spread of the socialistic faith among the German colony at Paris was therefore bound to convert Jew and Gentile alike. Two of those early Jewish converts, Karl Marx and Ferdinand Lassalle, were to become commanding figures in the history of socialism: one as the father of scientific socialism, the other as the founder of the German Socialist party. Marx, the son of a Jewish lawyer of Treves, numbered among his ancestors many famous rabbis. The chapters on the theory of value in his principal work, "Das Kapital," suggest by their subtle analysis an inherited Talmudical bent, though his own education was uninfluenced by Jewish studies, the family having been converted to the Lutheran Church during his early childhood.
[...]
While in Germany socialism has attracted individual Jews, in Russia it has become a movement of the Jewish masses. ”
(Jewish Encyclopedia, 1905, article: 'Socialism', p. 418-419.)

http://www.terrorism-illuminati.com/...d_war_one.html

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=324448&postcount=58

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=315826&postcount=43


I agree 100%

Dear Freemasons answer this post.

[chrism]

I agree 100%

Dear Freemasons answer this post.

Hi again Boots.

I have read the posts, but once again I fail to see how I fit in to this!

Of course bankers will make money out of both sides in a war - their ground state of being is largely greed. My father used to tell me that a banker is someone who will lend you money if you can prove that you do not need it. IMO - a mason is a brother, someone who will give money to those who can't afford it, hoping that should he ever be in dire need there will be a brother there to help him likewise.

Charity forms a big part of our masonic lives. We are taught from the very start to practise it. Banking is a far cry from this!

I do not doubt that some bankers are freemasons, or that some freemasons are bankers, but when Hitler invaded Poland was it because he was a ruthless and ambitious dictator, or because he was a vegetarian?

The original post is a barbed one, making assumptions about the 'levels' of freemasonry which just don't stack up. People cannot fight for a cause they are unaware of. Masons are not footsoldiers, we are civilians who enjoy meeting for a drink and a laugh - like many non-masons.

The anti-semitic language which is regularly espoused on this and other forums has left me numb to the venom which often comes with it. Personally I an happy to believe that no religion in and of itself is guilty of these anti-social behaviours, but churches and groups can be. Their faith does not really come in to it. Just because some of the jewish people want to take over the world does not mean they are all despots!

I WISH WE COULD STOP THIS FALLACY - it constrains reasoned and rational thought! Think about the impact of continually referring to jewish people, or freemasons or any other social group in this manner. An analogy:

All Ravens are Birds
All Ravens are Black
Therefore, all Birds are Black
(Or, for that matter, all Black things are Birds)

It again does not stack up!

I would humbly suggest that before reading anything political, be it a manifesto or even posts on an opinionated forum, readers acquaint themselves with the fallacy. I recommend "Fallacies and Pitfalls of Language: The Language Trap"; Engle, S. Morris; ISBN 0-486-28274-0

[barney_rubble]

Hi again Boots.

I have read the posts, but once again I fail to see how I fit in to this!

Of course bankers will make money out of both sides in a war - their ground state of being is largely greed. My father used to tell me that a banker is someone who will lend you money if you can prove that you do not need it. IMO - a mason is a brother, someone who will give money to those who can't afford it, hoping that should he ever be in dire need there will be a brother there to help him likewise.

Charity forms a big part of our masonic lives. We are taught from the very start to practise it. Banking is a far cry from this!

I do not doubt that some bankers are freemasons, or that some freemasons are bankers, but when Hitler invaded Poland was it because he was a ruthless and ambitious dictator, or because he was a vegetarian?

The original post is a barbed one, making assumptions about the 'levels' of freemasonry which just don't stack up. People cannot fight for a cause they are unaware of. Masons are not footsoldiers, we are civilians who enjoy meeting for a drink and a laugh - like many non-masons.

The anti-semitic language which is regularly espoused on this and other forums has left me numb to the venom which often comes with it. Personally I an happy to believe that no religion in and of itself is guilty of these anti-social behaviours, but churches and groups can be. Their faith does not really come in to it. Just because some of the jewish people want to take over the world does not mean they are all despots!

I WISH WE COULD STOP THIS FALLACY - it constrains reasoned and rational thought! Think about the impact of continually referring to jewish people, or freemasons or any other social group in this manner. An analogy:

All Ravens are Birds
All Ravens are Black
Therefore, all Birds are Black
(Or, for that matter, all Black things are Birds)

It again does not stack up!

I would humbly suggest that before reading anything political, be it a manifesto or even posts on an opinionated forum, readers acquaint themselves with the fallacy. I recommend "Fallacies and Pitfalls of Language: The Language Trap"; Engle, S. Morris; ISBN 0-486-28274-0

Hear, hear!

[chrism]

You misquoted , is this a common tactic?!!... it was said 'They FUNDED both sides!'.. the be exact as it seems hard to do at times
making money and funding are different as you can judge the outcome through funds!...IMO

Yes - there is a difference - but bankers do not lend money to make a loss - they profit from loans. Otherwise they are not bankers!

What other reason would they have to fund both sides?

Chrism

[thelonious]

Back to the point. Why have Freemasons not explored the Free energy technology that is out there?

Why don't *you* explore it? What has that got to do with freemasonry?


BTW Rotary international do not limit there members to professionals.

From their website:

Rotarians are members of Rotary clubs. Rotary clubs belong to Rotary International. To become a Rotarian, you must be invited to join a Rotary club by a member of that club.

A qualified candidate for Rotary club membership is an adult of good character and good business, professional, or community reputation. The candidate fits one of the following criteria:

Holds or has held an executive position with discretionary authority in any worthy and recognized business or profession
Serves or has served as a community leader

http://www.rotary.org/en/AboutUs/JoiningRotary/Pages/ridefault.aspx

Oh yeah, I'm a shit kicker just like you, the difference being I dont get stuck in ideologies and do seek and explore other modes of thinking thanks to David Icke.

Explore whatever you want. But any time you take something someone says as gospel without checking facts or even understanding the history, then yes, you're stuck in ideology.

[thelonious]

I always thought that Japan did that attack because they didn't had another choice... I mean, what would you do as a country when USA puts an embargo on you without a valid reason?

They attacked Pearl Harbor because they wanted to invade the Phillipines, but couldn't due to the US Pacific fleet.

It had nothing to do with an embargo, but that's irrelevant. All countries have the right to issue an embargo against anyone they want, for any reason, or even for no reason. People can trade with who they want, or refuse to trade.

[thelonious]

...............

and I got the better of you on a number of occasions

lol...I've never seen you "get the best" of *anybody*.

posted evidence to suggest Trotsky was a Freemason

Actually, the evidence was posted by two other members which showed conclusively that you had no idea what you were talking about.

[boots]

Hi again Boots.

I have read the posts, but once again I fail to see how I fit in to this!

Of course bankers will make money out of both sides in a war - their ground state of being is largely greed. My father used to tell me that a banker is someone who will lend you money if you can prove that you do not need it. IMO - a mason is a brother, someone who will give money to those who can't afford it, hoping that should he ever be in dire need there will be a brother there to help him likewise.

Charity forms a big part of our masonic lives. We are taught from the very start to practise it. Banking is a far cry from this!

I do not doubt that some bankers are freemasons, or that some freemasons are bankers, but when Hitler invaded Poland was it because he was a ruthless and ambitious dictator, or because he was a vegetarian?

The original post is a barbed one, making assumptions about the 'levels' of freemasonry which just don't stack up. People cannot fight for a cause they are unaware of. Masons are not footsoldiers, we are civilians who enjoy meeting for a drink and a laugh - like many non-masons.

The anti-semitic language which is regularly espoused on this and other forums has left me numb to the venom which often comes with it. Personally I an happy to believe that no religion in and of itself is guilty of these anti-social behaviours, but churches and groups can be. Their faith does not really come in to it. Just because some of the jewish people want to take over the world does not mean they are all despots!

I WISH WE COULD STOP THIS FALLACY - it constrains reasoned and rational thought! Think about the impact of continually referring to jewish people, or freemasons or any other social group in this manner. An analogy:

All Ravens are Birds
All Ravens are Black
Therefore, all Birds are Black
(Or, for that matter, all Black things are Birds)

It again does not stack up!

I would humbly suggest that before reading anything political, be it a manifesto or even posts on an opinionated forum, readers acquaint themselves with the fallacy. I recommend "Fallacies and Pitfalls of Language: The Language Trap"; Engle, S. Morris; ISBN 0-486-28274-0

Hi Chrism,
It's not bankers per say or the average freemason what I'm saying is that the Illuminati the elite of elite decide what the out comes of these event are to be, to them banks are dispensable they don't care. All they care about is the outcome which is control of the masses though any means subtle or in your face type actions.

It's compartmentalization that forms this control If you work in a foundry for instance as an on the floor job you wouldn't know what the board of directors are doing and discussing this is the pyramid structure of society.

As for anti semitic views here on this forum the guidelines are quite clear there is no racism tolerated here, and so it should be it just so happens that some of these people of this religion/race are bankers and diamond dealers again being used by TBTB.

Again this not an attack on the average person who happens to be a freemason. OK.

[elirien]

Just because some of the jewish people want to take over the world does not mean they are all despots!

I WISH WE COULD STOP THIS FALLACY - it constrains reasoned and rational thought! Think about the impact of continually referring to jewish people, or freemasons or any other social group in this manner. An analogy:

All Ravens are Birds
All Ravens are Black
Therefore, all Birds are Black
(Or, for that matter, all Black things are Birds)

It again does not stack up!


Very good post chrism. Thank you.

It is very important to understand this: If the individuals who are occupying this forum, which believe that some members of the masonic orders (amongst many others) are making life hell for us by sentencing us into a life of slavery in this monetary and perhaps meta-physical system (that Icke and many others call the Matrix) then wouldn't it be at least smart (besides many other nice things again) to be polite to masonic members of this forum so that they could help us uncover the filth that has infiltrated their order? (damn that was a long sentence :D )

Is it so hard to say Zionist instead of Jew? Some Hebrew people hate Zionism. But if we use the name of their ethnic race do you think that would motivate them to be against Zionism or against that mindless idiot who blames everything on them like that moron Hitler.

Trotsky, Lenin, Marx, Engels are excess egos before they are Jews. Yes, I know that Jews who are Zionists are fascist bastards. But I don't think calling any sick Zionist a Jew will help, neither calling any Illuminist a freakmason will help. Yes we have to know from which background individuals come to have knowledge about their indoctrination, but it is very important to not get carried away.

Wouldn't it be perhaps better to hear from a mason that he found out about some secret stuff at his lodge (which you will be free to believe. I don't say you should) then trying to bash him in the head?

What do you do to your friends or people in your environ that oppose your ideas? Do you label him too? What difference do you have from the people you label then ?

I think that there are Freemasons who are making life hell. But I also think that there could and are very nice people among them who are trying quite the opposite (either through ignorance or not). Don't lose some potential allies just because they are dressed different. Thats the way of ignorance.

I hope I'm not misinformed or taking things like they shouldn't, but this is what I think.

[boots]

Why don't *you* explore it? What has that got to do with freemasonry?



I'm not a president am I and I dont have access to top scientist and loads of money which it seems there are a lot of freemason's that are in these positions so in your close knit group and you being a high level mason what are you doing to free people from bondage????

[chrism]

It is very important to understand this: If the individuals who are occupying this forum, which believe that some members of the masonic orders (amongst many others) are making life hell for us by sentencing us into a life of slavery in this monetary and perhaps meta-physical system (that Icke and many others call the Matrix) then wouldn't it be at least smart (besides many other nice things again) to be polite to masonic members of this forum so that they could help us uncover the filth that has infiltrated their order? (damn that was a long sentence :D )

Yes - But is made sense!

Is it so hard to say Zionist instead of Jew? Some Hebrew people hate Zionism. But if we use the name of their ethnic race do you think that would motivate them to be against Zionism or against that mindless idiot who blames everything on them like that moron Hitler.

I think to do anything else is tantamount to propaganda. The use of derogatory language to prejudice a group against whichever minority is currently in the spotlight.

Trotsky, Lenin, Marx, Engels are excess egos before they are Jews. Yes, I know that Jews who are Zionists are fascist bastards. But I don't think calling any sick Zionist a Jew will help, neither calling any Illuminist a freakmason will help. Yes we have to know from which background individuals come to have knowledge about their indoctrination, but it is very important to not get carried away.

Wouldn't it be perhaps better to hear from a mason that he found out about some secret stuff at his lodge (which you will be free to believe. I don't say you should) then trying to bash him in the head?

What do you do to your friends or people in your environ that oppose your ideas? Do you label him too? What difference do you have from the people you label then ?

This is an important point and I would like to focus on this:

When freemasons disagree (which they do on occasion - clash of personality is probably to blame!) they are required to resolve the matter before coming in to the lodge. In fact, one of the first things we learn is that we should not put on our apron (and we cannot be in the lodge 'unclothed') if there is someone within the lodge with whom we are at variance. Old language etc. We are told that it would be better for one or both to retire from the lodge in order to amicably resolve their differences than to disrupt the harmony of the lodge.

I don't for a minute expect you to believe that everyone in the lodge gets on with everyone else, but harmony is important and this is the masonic 'way'.

I think that there are Freemasons who are making life hell. But I also think that there could and are very nice people among them who are trying quite the opposite (either through ignorance or not). Don't lose some potential allies just because they are dressed different. Thats the way of ignorance.

On this website, the masons are very much in the minority, and usually cast down by the majority as some form of NWO/Illuminati conspiracy to destroy society etc. We recognise that we are not particularly welcome here, but appreciate your hospitality when we receive it.

In the 'real world' however, there are more people who are favourable of masonry than those who are anti-masonry. In general people are enquiring and pleased to meet us, rather than dismissive or despising. Whatever the reason for this (freemasons keeping non-masons in the dark or brainwashing etc - people from this forum have and will come up with their own theories) the numbers do speak for themselves. All I personally am trying to do here is provide my personal perspective - I do not feel the need to 'justify' masonry, certainly not on this site. I am a mason, so you could say what I provide is a masonic viewpoint, but I do not claim to speak for masonry as a whole, or for any other individual "funny 'andshaker". Just Me.

I do recognise that there are many people out there who are bad people, masonic and not. There may well be groups of bad masons trying to profit (materially or otherwise) from the suffering or ignorance of others; but please believe me: I despise them MORE than you do - because not only are they doing this, but they are trading on MY good name as a mason!

I hope I'm not misinformed or taking things like they shouldn't, but this is what I think.

In this place, and at this time, you must think what you will and do what you can.

Chrism

[chrism]

I'm not a president am I and I dont have access to top scientist and loads of money which it seems there are a lot of freemason's that are in these positions so in your close knit group and you being a high level mason what are you doing to free people from bondage????

I don't know many masons with loads of money, but will ask around to see if any of them also have 'top scientists'.

Slavery has been illegal in the UK for many years now - if not it probably WOULD be the masons who were trying to do something about it. But even so it is not a problem CAUSED by masonry.

If you were, for example, a gas engineer, I may ask what Corgi were doing about reducing drug crime in Salford, because this has as much relevance as 'bondage' does to masonry!

BTW - any 'top scientist' will tell you that 'free energy' is an impossibility. It goes against natural laws of thermodynamics and conservation of energy.

Regards

Chrism

[thelonious]

Before I began, allow me to apologize to boots for my earlier harsh words. I meant no offense and was just frustrated by what I was reading at the time, sorry.




I'm not a president am I and I dont have access to top scientist and loads of money which it seems there are a lot of freemason's that are in these positions

This is the point I've been trying to make: Freemasons usually are not in those positions, and even if some guy who *is* a Mason happens to get into such a position, Freemasonry as an organization has nothing to do with it.

ou mention presidents, but the United States hasn't had a President who was a Mason since the 1970's (Gerald Ford). The UK, to my knowledge, hasn't had a Prime Minister who was a Mason since Churchill. And I know of absolutely no "top scientists" who are Freemasons, in any country.

so in your close knit group and you being a high level mason what are you doing to free people from bondage????

It is the philosophy of Freemasonry that society can only be improved by improving the individuals that compose society. In other words, Freemasonry has always sought to change the world by focusing on the individual.

The Masonic fraternity does this by teaching its initiates concepts such as ethics, philanthropy, universal brotherhood, and the necessity of an enlightened spiritual path.

If men take these lessons to heart, and then go out into the world and practice what they learned in the Lodge, the world becomes a better place, and people begin freeing themselves from bondage. We see that this happened in the Age of Enlightenment, when Freemasonry was very influential. The bondage which came from the dark age tyrannies were cast aside, and the cry was Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity.

Today, everything has changed. In modern society, Freemasonry is almost completely irrelevant. While our own initiates continue the tradition of the fathers, pretty much no one outside the Lodge even cares. Today most Lodges are struggling just to pay their bills...as non-profit fraternal organizations, they certainly don't have "loads of money". Lodge fundraisers, which used to raise money for charity, now more and more go to paying operation expenses, such as utility bills and mortgages. Therefore, I'm not quite sure what it is you want us to do.

[jamesk]

I'm impressed by the politeness and general quality of the posts made by mason members here (in particular chrism, thelonious and elirien) in spite of the hostility received.

Well done guys. I wish that more people would understand that rudeness and hostility is not necessarily the best way way to debate or influence people.

However, and this is addressed to the masons here, how about discussing the crimes against humanity that are hinted at in the video? Look at 911, the London bombings, the draconian legislation, the police state, the erosion of liberties, the poisoning of the environment, the dumbing down of the public via media and a hundred and one other crimes that masons and masonic controlled corporations are alleged by an overwhelming number of researchers to be either directly responsible for, or instrumental in carrying out.

As I've said elsewhere, and so have others, this is the David Icke Forum, and to make a contribution to a discussion the onus is on the participants to at least read what the topic is about - then you can add to and possibly help with understanding what is actually going on.

It's no good denying everything, pretending that freemasonry is squeaky clean, when the crimes, with crystal clear masonic symbols/signatures are staring at your face telling you that all is not well. As Hamlet might have said "something is rotten in masonry".

As a minimum you should read "The Biggest Secret" - much of the information contained in there is from masonic/illuminatie sources that wanted the information communicated to the public. Then we can discus what is accurate and what is not.

[elirien]

I'm impressed by the politeness and general quality of the posts made by mason members here (in particular chrism, thelonious and elirien) in spite of the hostility received.

Well done guys. I wish that more people would understand that rudeness and hostility is not necessarily the best way way to debate or influence people.

However, and this is addressed to the masons here, how about discussing the crimes against humanity that are hinted at in the video? Look at 911, the London bombings, the draconian legislation, the police state, the erosion of liberties, the poisoning of the environment, the dumbing down of the public via media and a hundred and one other crimes that masons and masonic controlled corporations are alleged by an overwhelming number of researchers to be either directly responsible for, or instrumental in carrying out.

As I've said elsewhere, and so have others, this is the David Icke Forum, and to make a contribution to a discussion the onus is on the participants to at least read what the topic is about - then you can add to and possibly help with understanding what is actually going on.

It's no good denying everything, pretending that freemasonry is squeaky clean, when the crimes, with crystal clear masonic symbols/signatures are staring at your face telling you that all is not well. As Hamlet might have said "something is rotten in masonry".

As a minimum you should read "The Biggest Secret" - much of the information contained in there is from masonic/illuminatie sources that wanted the information communicated to the public. Then we can discus what is accurate and what is not.

You're definitely right about returning to the topic but damn it I'm not a mason :D Just because I don't call them names doesn't mean I support them or like their order. Political cruelty and indifference were made by masons in my country. I definitely hate those and have some judgement on their secretive teachings and practices. But that doesn't mean I can't debate with members from their orders. Just because the Greek Army invaded my country in the 20th century doesn't mean that I can't have greek or for the matter christian friends.

[jamesk]

You're definitely right about returning to the topic but damn it I'm not a mason :D

I'm sorry elirien - didn't mean to call you something your not! Funny though how a a label that one person finds offensive, another wears with great pride....

[elirien]

I'm sorry elirien - didn't mean to call you something your not! Funny though how a a label that one person finds offensive, another wears with great pride....

No problem jamesk. Well every label can be used as a curse word. Even nationality names are used in racist environments. Since labels are trivial (I mean no one will ask me if am -lets say- Turkish when I die) so I think getting offended by any label is as trivial as the label itself.

I wasn't offended by you calling me a mason. I said "damn it" because I wanted to emphasize that I wrote that I was anti-masonic in a recent post. Damn I drifted off the topic again...

[chrism]

It does seem that 'mason' is not a great label in this particular forum!

Returning to the topic in hand, and in response to jamesk's earlier question about 9/11 and the london bombings specifically, I can see that there are questions which still need to be answered but some of the opinions on this site and others seem a little 'extreme' for my tastes.

I do not doubt that in the aftermath of 9/11 especially, the authorities in the US and in the UK jumped on the huge fear and uncertainty surrounding society in general to reinforce their positions of power, and to exert ever greater control on the masses. I am well aware of the power fear can command, especially when combined with other factors such as NLP (I know the credibility of such techniques are in question - not least by myself but some of the methods ARE effective!) and good, old-fashioned propaganda, and have no doubt that these are used by unscrupulous individuals to further their own aims.

The media - controlled no doubt by a few individuals, are largely responsible for this. We are constantly under a barrage of 'bed news' and told that things are the worst they have ever been (Grandma syndrome - things were better in my day etc).

Trying to see through these 'exaggerations' (or lies, possibly, or at the very least selective reporting) is an important part of remaining a member of modern society. Those who don't or can't are the 'sheeple' often mentioned here - they believe the hype and follow the instructions given. And importantly they are happy to do so!

And that to me is a crucial point - are they really being harmed by this? If the country runs better as a result and order is maintained, they can remain an active and valuable member of the public and also retain a level of happiness.

All this does not take 'illuminati' or other secret society, just a few willing people collaborating, and that is possibly why a lot of people here are wary, fearful or untrusting of masons - we do the same.

Also, it does not take attacking ones own people to create these situations - just take advantage of every opportunity you are presented by those who despise what our nations stand for.

You could argue that this is immoral, and I would agree with you. But since we are both able to see through these misleading or misguided reports, surely we are in a happy minority - if others enjoy their ignorance, do we need to enlighten them at all?

A fundamental question I suppose, and I guess our opinions will differ!

Chrism

By the way - I am in no way condoning the methods used by the 'powers that be, not suggesting that freemasonry has anything to do with them!

C

[elirien]

...
Trying to see through these 'exaggerations' (or lies, possibly, or at the very least selective reporting) is an important part of remaining a member of modern society. Those who don't or can't are the 'sheeple' often mentioned here - they believe the hype and follow the instructions given. And importantly they are happy to do so!

And that to me is a crucial point - are they really being harmed by this? If the country runs better as a result and order is maintained, they can remain an active and valuable member of the public and also retain a level of happiness.

....surely we are in a happy minority - if others enjoy their ignorance, do we need to enlighten them at all?

A fundamental question I suppose, and I guess our opinions will differ!

Chrism


C

Well I have to quote Plato in this occasion. "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."

When I present some new information on 911, government affairs, documents, documentaries etc. to the people in my environment mostly I get fear and being labeled a conspiracy nut. Shoving anything anyones throat is quite bad since it has a repulsive effect. Although if any of these 'sheeple' bitch about the government or the state of the world then I get either pretty humored or mad. I mean its an easy choice, live like a human, thinking and using your brain just a little bit or live like a plant multiplying and excersizing your motor functions. Its ok either way but be honest with what you do.

If you accept the concept of a developing and evolving human being then there is no question to observe, analyze and question your life. Which leads to an ultimate ending where this video begins (wow that sounded poetic lol). Seeing all the synchronicities, documents of where civilization is headed doesn't actually leave much to the imagination. Especially on the religious part and on the part where when you dig just a little bit every major guy in every parliament either has ties to a (secret) organization or particular family which is against the ideals presented in his job description.

Masons are just one aspect. There are a lot more. Especially here in Turkey were there are tons of secret organizations which are probably molded under one big one. These details are very disturbing and against any decent working government.

[jamesk]

Hi Chrism,

I think that in your last post your either not willing to face certain facts or are being less then honest. Yes, some of the views here may well be "extreme", this still does not mean that they can all be dismissed as crap....

Its not just the aftermath, its what happened on 911 that is relevant. Do you really believe that "mad arabs with box cutters, operating from caves, that hate our freedoms" did it? Do you really believe that fire brought the towers down? If you do, then possibly you know as much about it as I did several years ago - ie bugger all!

Those buildings were blown up, demolished using explosives that pulverized the concrete into fine dust that covered most of Manhattan as if snow had come early.

The question you pose about whether the event and the brainwashing that followed was really harmful or not depends on the perspective. From the outer perspective people the world over have had their liberties curtailed and minds brainwashed by a fascist police state, a global form of Nazi Germany - which is bad.

From an inner perspective, the official lies are so blatant that even the most trusting of people are seeing them for what they are, which could result in an awakening, where people could question their own thoughts, their own beliefs. Which would be an event unprecedented in such a scale - so that would be a good thing.

[whatsontv]

Why don't *you* explore it? What has that got to do with freemasonry?



I'm not a president am I and I dont have access to top scientist and loads of money which it seems there are a lot of freemason's that are in these positions so in your close knit group and you being a high level mason what are you doing to free people from bondage????

"it seems" - more evidence!

[boots]

"it seems" - more evidence!


It seems they are more behind the scenes pushing the buttons.

[chrism]

Hi Chrism,

I think that in your last post your either not willing to face certain facts or are being less then honest. Yes, some of the views here may well be "extreme", this still does not mean that they can all be dismissed as crap....

Hi Jamesk. First let me say that I certainly was not dismissing the claims, however with anything extreme I do find myself questioning them more than, for example the statement that 'the sky is blue'. I am sure we may even share this trait!

Its not just the aftermath, its what happened on 911 that is relevant. Do you really believe that "mad arabs with box cutters, operating from caves, that hate our freedoms" did it? Do you really believe that fire brought the towers down? If you do, then possibly you know as much about it as I did several years ago - ie bugger all!

Those buildings were blown up, demolished using explosives that pulverized the concrete into fine dust that covered most of Manhattan as if snow had come early.

As it happens, I do believe that a few organised men could have taken control of a plane, yes. Once they had done so, the rest would be relatively easy.

In terms of fire bringing down the towers? Yes - that is also the most feasible cause of the collapse of both towers. People often quote the melting point of steel as the defining factor, whereas the temperature at which steel is unable to support the structure above is actually the important point. Steel loses 50% of this strength at around 425 - 500'c - depending on the type of steel used. Once one floor collapses, the kinetic energy released in the downward shift of the thousands of tonnes of material above causes the next floor to collapse immediately, causing a chain reaction and allowing the building to implode.

The fact is, 9/11 was the one occasion where the physics behind such a 'demolition' could be tested: no-one has ever suggested the explosive (controlled or otherwise) demolition of a 110 + storey building, so the pulverisation of concrete remains a rather unknown factor in all of this. Suffice it to say that the collapse should provide enough energy to crush twice the amount of concrete that it did.

Now, I am not suggesting that other things could not have happened, but when analysing any 'story' it is important to consider everything that COULD HAVE happened, not just what we WANT to have happened (James - I am not addressing this to you in particular, but to other readers). Once we have done so we extrapolate the most likely answer.

I have no doubt that the governments jumped on this event to add to the panic and fear it created, and to enable them to justify their aggressive foreign policies, but that is another matter.

The question you pose about whether the event and the brainwashing that followed was really harmful or not depends on the perspective. From the outer perspective people the world over have had their liberties curtailed and minds brainwashed by a fascist police state, a global form of Nazi Germany - which is bad.

From an inner perspective, the official lies are so blatant that even the most trusting of people are seeing them for what they are, which could result in an awakening, where people could question their own thoughts, their own beliefs. Which would be an event unprecedented in such a scale - so that would be a good thing.

I hope the awakening continues, because the more intelligent thought and communication we have, the better forums like these become!

Kind regards,

Chrism

[lightgiver]

WTC7 WTC7 WTC7 how many times? are people that numb or just plain ignorant:mad:the bbc report;it was still standing when they said it had collapsed;i watched it on the day,the very day and they suddenly lost the link:mad:stop defending it WE KNOW THE TRUTH,have you noticed it is only freemasons defending the LIES

[chrism]

it is only freemasons defending the LIES

Have you even noticed that I have not defended any lies at all. All I have requested is that people keep an open mind, and that at this point the 'terrorist' theory seems to me to be the most plausible. I am not trying to convince anyone that my ideas or those I propound are the ONLY ones to be considered, just the ones I feel come closest to the truth.

In fact, I applaud JamesK and Elirien for questioning the 'party line' so often quoted through the media. I too question the statements issuing from political quarters as well as those directly generated by the media. I have seen and read enough to be able to see through a lot of the fallacies and lies used to control mass population, and like many of the 'conspiracists' here despise this method when used to corrupt and influence the masses to benefit the controllers.

Devil's Advocate I may be, but defending lies? If I knew they were lies I would not be able to defend them on moral grounds. You yourself are pushing lies with your 'Freemasons are all Liars' and 'I KNOW JOE STIRLING IS TELLING THE TRUTH' replies to topics. The freemasons here are accustomed to receiving these accusations without a shred of evidence or proof, and you seem to think that repeating something often enough will make it true - JUST LIKE THE MEDIA...

Well, it does not. The WTC Attackes, whether committed by middle eastern terrorists, the US government or another third party were a deplorable waste of human life. I don't think anyone apart from Al Qaida and a few other rogue terrorist units will counter that argument. The use of the attacks to launch a war against Iraq? The claims don't stack up. Afghanistan possibly, but Iraq, NO. I know that our governments have lied to us, because they have been proven to do so (WMD, 45 Minute Warning etc, even looking further back to the Iraqi Super Gun of the late 80s).

Wake up, lightgiver, Masons are not part of the conspiracy, we are a representative part of the masses. We are as appalled by the WTC and other injustices as you are, and we are taught to help others, not hinder them. We are not hiding things from you, nor are we defending lies. We may defend truths as we see them, as do you.

Chrism

[jacob sladder]

Have you even noticed that I have not defended any lies at all. All I have requested is that people keep an open mind, and that at this point the 'terrorist' theory seems to me to be the most plausible. I am not trying to convince anyone that my ideas or those I propound are the ONLY ones to be considered, just the ones I feel come closest to the truth.

In fact, I applaud JamesK and Elirien for questioning the 'party line' so often quoted through the media. I too question the statements issuing from political quarters as well as those directly generated by the media. I have seen and read enough to be able to see through a lot of the fallacies and lies used to control mass population, and like many of the 'conspiracists' here despise this method when used to corrupt and influence the masses to benefit the controllers.

Devil's Advocate I may be, but defending lies? If I knew they were lies I would not be able to defend them on moral grounds. You yourself are pushing lies with your 'Freemasons are all Liars' and 'I KNOW JOE STIRLING IS TELLING THE TRUTH' replies to topics. The freemasons here are accustomed to receiving these accusations without a shred of evidence or proof, and you seem to think that repeating something often enough will make it true - JUST LIKE THE MEDIA...

Well, it does not. The WTC Attackes, whether committed by middle eastern terrorists, the US government or another third party were a deplorable waste of human life. I don't think anyone apart from Al Qaida and a few other rogue terrorist units will counter that argument. The use of the attacks to launch a war against Iraq? The claims don't stack up. Afghanistan possibly, but Iraq, NO. I know that our governments have lied to us, because they have been proven to do so (WMD, 45 Minute Warning etc, even looking further back to the Iraqi Super Gun of the late 80s).

Wake up, lightgiver, Masons are not part of the conspiracy, we are a representative part of the masses. We are as appalled by the WTC and other injustices as you are, and we are taught to help others, not hinder them. We are not hiding things from you, nor are we defending lies. We may defend truths as we see them, as do you.

Chrism

Spot on, Chrism, spot on.....


JS

[jamesk]

At this point the 'terrorist' theory seems to me to be the most plausible.


I think that the "terrorist" theory is the least plausible theory - "mad arabs, with box cutters, operating from caves, that hate our freedoms, nicking 4 boeings, flying them for hours in the most tightly controlled air space in the world, smashing them into buildings that magically pulverise an hour after impact in puffs of dust all over Manahaten"

The buildings are hit, then pulverize one after the other in full view of the media and cameras who are watching and recording wtc 1, 2 and 7 pulverise, while the trillions dollar US security services, that can intercept a soviet missile after it has been launched, doesn't have a clue, does nothing, lets the planes AWOL for hours smash into buildings one after the other.

19 devout, fanatical muslims, that get drunk in strip joints, start fights, leave Korans all over the place, take flying lessons where they have trouble piloting Cessna's then manage not only to take control off, but fly Boing 767's like top gun pilots doing sea level maneuvers at speeds around 500km/h. They seem to have some magical kerosene on board too, that pulverizes steel and concrete buildings into dust an hour after impact. Something that 1000's of tons of TNT wouldn't be able to do.

19 mad arabs not only do more damage to the free world then the full might of the Nazi's and the Russians commies, but many also manage to stay alive and well, and even manage to have their passports magically intact while everything else melted or pulverised!

The "official" story is absurd. Nothing in it is even remotely likely, unless in a fairy tale or a "rambo" type movie. I'd be surprised if anyone that has scrutinized the "terrorist" theory with the relevant facts would believe it.

If there were a poll here I'd imagine that the majority would say that 911 was an inside job - so you would not be seen as a person that either knows or is telling the truth by the majority here. This is why I and others keep reminding you that this is the "David Icke" forum - he predicted these things before they happened. So do some reading....

I am not trying to convince anyone that my ideas or those I propound are the ONLY ones to be considered, just the ones I feel come closest to the truth.


I think that "official" 911 theory is as far away from the truth is it is possible to be, and if you believe that then you are being misled by those you trust.

Why did fire manage to melt this particular steel (the one in WTC1, 2 and 7) and not any other? Why did fire bring down these steel and concrete buildings, when fire has NEVER brought down any known concrete and steel building, and never will?

Why did all the other buildings that sustained plane crashes not pulverise an hour after impact? There are plenty of examples of planes crashing into buildings you know.

I too question the statements issuing from political quarters as well as those directly generated by the media. I have seen and read enough to be able to see through a lot of the fallacies and lies used to control mass population, and like many of the 'conspiracists' here despise this method when used to corrupt and influence the masses to benefit the controllers.
Yes, and this is to be applauded. If you were to go a little deeper down the rabbit hole, you might find something very rotten.

Devil's Advocate I may be, but defending lies? If I knew they were lies I would not be able to defend them on moral grounds. You yourself are pushing lies with your 'Freemasons are all Liars' and 'I KNOW JOE STIRLING IS TELLING THE TRUTH' replies to topics. The freemasons here are accustomed to receiving these accusations without a shred of evidence or proof, and you seem to think that repeating something often enough will make it true - JUST LIKE THE MEDIA...
Yes, I know that freemasons and freemasonary has been unfairly accused at times, and this is sad to see.


Masons are not part of the conspiracy, we are a representative part of the masses. We are as appalled by the WTC and other injustices as you are, and we are taught to help others, not hinder them. We are not hiding things from you, nor are we defending lies. We may defend truths as we see them, as do you.
Yes, i'd imagine 99% of Masons are just like everyone else, and not part of the conspiracy, are appalled by it, defend truth, oppose injustices, help others and so on. Never the less, there are very clear masonic/illumnatie signatures around 911 - seek and you shall find.

[intruder]

http://www.rense.com/general81/d3hr.htm

Interesting article on 9/11

[chrism]

JamesK

Another interesting response, filled with rationale and good reasoning. I have missed you!

I do take your point but am afraid we will always disagree about the physics involved in the 9/11 attacks/conspiracy. Even so, I look forward to our future discussions.

You say 99% of masons are on the 'good' side, which I think is generous but welcome! On the other hand, what percentage of the population in general would you thing are 'good'? If masonry is not representative of the people in general, maybe it is more representative of the nicer end of society. I believe it is, because this is one of the reasons I joined! I certainly hope it is.

I also hope we continue to meet on this forum!

I still have an open mind, clouded as it is by the media. At least I recognise it is clouded though...

Chrism

[elirien]

Yes, I know that freemasons and freemasonary has been unfairly accused at times, and this is sad to see.

Yes, i'd imagine 99% of Masons are just like everyone else, and not part of the conspiracy, are appalled by it, defend truth, oppose injustices, help others and so on. Never the less, there are very clear masonic/illumnatie signatures around 911 - seek and you shall find.

First of all I want to thank you jamesk and every body else for writing all the facts and some theories (official or not) on 911. Since I'm pretty sick of watching, reading, writing, explaining all the details on this subject I left it on one side and continued my personal dealings on different subjects. The last thing I watched on the 911 subject which I would like to add is the John Lear interview on Project Camelot where he claims that the planes were holographic (not in the holographic universe sense tho).

Masons are people. Jews are people. Muslims are people. Christians are people and the list goes on and on. Alienating any of these people for the deeds that some individuals or secret groups inside these masses of people did is the same bigotry as lets say some Muslim people forbidding their wives to exit their homes.

I can understand why some people of the masonic order can defend their order so easily and with no doubt at all since I defended my own nationality or late religion in foreign countries the same way. I believed that all members of them are good people; which is now pretty impossible for me to believe since I didn't create any of them and have no opinion at all on every second of their lives. Damn I can't remember all the seconds of my own life. God knows what the hell I have done. This isn't some sick conspiracy theorist paranoia people, just the simple truth.

So I would like to just make a quick quote with a small addition on the whole thing: "Think for yourself and question authority, even your own."

[chrism]

I can understand why some people of the masonic order can defend their order so easily and with no doubt at all since I defended my own nationality or late religion in foreign countries the same way. I believed that all members of them are good people;


I know what you mean and agree - I think it boils down to the following: If a person acts in the manner prescribed in the Bible, the Koran or the vast majority of other sacred texts, or adheres to the principles of freemasonry (to a lesser extent - remember that masonry is NOT a religion) then they WILL be a good person. Anyone who adheres to a strict moral code will be.

Just because they call themselves Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Mason does not confer the same 'goodness' but because we are of the same religion or belong to the same club, we would like to think they are.

The goodness does not come from the name of the religion or association, but from following its precepts. I am well aware that of the many men who call themselves masons, there will be a proportion who do not act in the way I would expect of a brother. I recognise we must have these people among our numbers, and hope that over time they will be found out and asked to leave, but I don't think any society will ever have a 100% success rate.

Chrism

[elirien]

I know what you mean and agree - I think it boils down to the following: If a person acts in the manner prescribed in the Bible, the Koran or the vast majority of other sacred texts, or adheres to the principles of freemasonry (to a lesser extent - remember that masonry is NOT a religion) then they WILL be a good person. Anyone who adheres to a strict moral code will be.

Just because they call themselves Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Mason does not confer the same 'goodness' but because we are of the same religion or belong to the same club, we would like to think they are.

The goodness does not come from the name of the religion or association, but from following its precepts. I am well aware that of the many men who call themselves masons, there will be a proportion who do not act in the way I would expect of a brother. I recognise we must have these people among our numbers, and hope that over time they will be found out and asked to leave, but I don't think any society will ever have a 100% success rate.

Chrism

I can't acknowledge that totally. There is no way imho to be a "peaceful Muslim" or "forgiving Christian" or "open mason". Its not important how people label beliefs, as religions or clubs or fraternities. This ideal that lets say the world would be great if for example they would adhere to the Muslim philosophy is impossible since human behavior is not that simple as to give it lets say a bunch of rules and a cap.

Since we established that not all Muslims (for ex.) are not "good" we can conclude through the same reasoning because of the complexity of the human equation that there are not just good aspects of a religion. Most "gods" of these beliefs are pretty sado-masocistic (I would like to recommend at this point Jung's book "an answer to job"). Its easy to see that no reasoning could explain concepts like hell, heaven, sin and the likes. How can people believe in a "god" that you wouldn't go out to have a drink with since he couldn't behave in a bar. the same goes for clubs, fraternities and the like, like freemasonry, the o.t.o. etc. their "avatars" are not that different and phrasing the same ideology that goes for religion (if all people were bla bla) to leave people on one side and just adhering to the good rules is the same shallowness and has nothing to do with the ideology and belief at all. I wouldn't drink a beer with Albert Pike or Aleister Crowley, whatever people give unnecessary details and facts on their behavior. I hope I've got my point across. Don't get me wrong please.

[nihil]

Geez, IMHO the official HQ is:

The Israeli Supreme Court Building

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9364/97338900.jpg

The Israeli Supreme Court, Jerusalem.


The first thing you will notice is the pyramid with the all Seeing Eye just like the one you will see on the American dollar bill, it sits in a circle to the left. We will elaborate on this a little later in this article. The larger circle you see at the bottom of the picture is an inverted-cross designed to walk on. It is the only religious emblem designed to be trampled on under foot.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/936/11679473.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/2762/44899830.jpg

Oh dear, an obelisk: as you can see in Rome, London, Washington D.C. and other masonic cities as Paris .

All of this will make more sense as we go along, keep in mind we are talking about the establishment of a form of Government that will usher in the anti-Christ.

Illuminati Design And Symbolism

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/391/73251110.jpg

This is a very large and expensive Library, but there is something else about this one that should be mentioned. The first tier is 'only' for Lawyers; the second tier is 'only' for setting Judges. The highest and third tier is 'only' for retired judges. Which also speaks of the order of things in the Illuminati, as one must be accepted and move to the higher level before the knowledge at that level is available to them. And directly above that third tier is the Pyramid with the all seeing eye of Luther. That begins the journey into the Illuminati.

The fact still remains that an evil force has been put into place in Jerusalem and has spread throughout Israel, in preparations for the end time and the seat of the anti-Christ. For if we are to believe that the anti-Christ is to have his seat on the Temple Mount, then we must come to grips with some truths not being preached today. One such truth is the foundation for such a move of the Devil must be underway even as we speak if this is to happen. Or we simply are not in the end days. This report will prove that such a move is underway and has been for quiet some time. It will be accepted by some and rejected by others, but that is the way it goes.

Some pictures showing the establishment of the Illuminati and establish proof that there has been a diabolical plot by those we refer to as the New World Order. Showing the architectural design of the New Israeli Supreme Court Building designed and paid for by the Rothchilds reflex the presence of Free Masonry and the Illuminati. I took all but one of the pictures you are about to see so I can assure that what you are seeing is real and in place.

The same families who own and control the Federal Reserve and other major financial institutions have their eyes set on the Temple Mount, and the Holy City of Jerusalem. Just as Scriptures say, the man who will be revealed as the anti-Christ will sit in that place, before the appearance of the Jewish Messiah Yeshua HaMashiach, and many will receive him as their messiah. Just actually how that will come about remains to be seen, but one thing I am convinced of is that Holy men of God will not be the ones to rebuild the Temple, it will be the Illuminati. For God would not send men to that place to perform blood sacrifices. His Son’s blood was the perfect sacrifice; there is no need to shed the blood of dumb animals any longer. Yeshua did a perfect work, and it was finished. But He will return and take control of the New Temple that I feel will be built soon. But before He will return this world will have to get in such bad shape that the anti-Christ can be accepted by most as the savior who can bring peace and order to the world. But then you know the rest of that story so lets go on.

There are those who call themselves Jews but who are of the house of Satan.

And many have found their way into the Israeli Knesset.

As this entire report will be built around the construction of this building order by the Rothchilds I should show you a picture of the building. A friend of mine took this picture as he and his wife flew over the area a couple years ago. The Supreme Court building sits on a plot of land opposite the Knesset and next to the Foreign Ministry and the Central bank of Israel. It is important to keep in mind that it sits in line with the Knesset, for we will be talking about Ley-Lines that cross under this pyramid running to the Knesset, with other ley-lines that cross in perfect order to the center of Jerusalem and on to the Rockefellow Museum. Everything about this building has been thought out to the very finest detail, and it is diabolical. The Devils plan has been put into place before we ever had an idea of his plan. He knows his final battle will be here in Jerusalem.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/9338/61258481.jpg

The Engineers who were chosen for this job by the Rothschild’s were the grandson and granddaughter of Ben-Zion Guine from Turkey who worked for Baron Rothschild, Ram Kurmi, born in Jerusalem in 1931, and Ada Karmi-Melanede born in Tel-Aviv in 1936. For those who can make something out of the numbers. It was important to the builder to have everything done according to the correct numbers. There were 1,000 sheets of plans, 1,200 cement posts; they worked on the building for 3 years or 750 days. 20 workers each day, for 200,000 workdays, 250,000 building stones, each hand placed.


http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6904/israelifreemasonry2.jpg

"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion"

Albert Pike

[nihil]

THE FREEMASONS
PLAN TO REBUILD
THE 3RD TEMPLE ON THE MOUNT

...with another one of their 'phallic obelisk ceremonies' - the abomination of desolation!

Remember that French & American Freemasons did the same type of occult goddess ceremony with the 'Statue of Liberty' in New York harbor.


"Expose Lucifers Masonic Lodge"

The Quatuor Coronati Lodge, (The Four Crowns Lodge)
- Founded as a special research lodge by the Grand Master of UGLE, the Prince of Wales, later King Edward VII, in 1884. The QC Lodge was then officially chartered in 1886.
- The inaugurating speech was entitled "Freemasonry as Seen in the Light of the Cabala."
- The lodge was to focus on Palestine, the Cabala, establishing a Jewish homeland, and rebuilding Solomon's Temple.
- Sir Charles Warren was the first grand master of the QC Lodge. He was also the president of the Palestine Exploration Fund, and two decades earlier had been the chief engineer for British excavations of the Temple Mount.
- Sir Walter Besant was a founding member of QC and was the treasurer of the Palestine Exploration Fund under Warren. Besant was the brother-in-law of Annie Besant, the president of the Theosophical Society after Helena Blavatsky.
- The PEF was founded in 1865 with money from the British Crown, UGLE, the Rothschilds and the Church of England. The event commemorating it's founding was chaired by the Archbishop of York who proclaimed that the Holy Land was, by divine right, English Property.
- In their recent books researchers Steven Knight and Melvyn Fairclough combine to paint a picture that implicates members of the Quatuor Coronati Lodge for the infamous Jack the Ripper murders in the late 1880's. They were covered up by Sir Charles Warren, who happened to be the Chief of London's Metropolitan Police.
"So when you see standing in the Holy Place "the abomination that causes desolation," spoken of through the prophet Daniel, let the reader understand - then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matthew 24:15-16)


"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the Temple and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him." (Daniel 11:31-32)
.

LEVI, ELIPHAS French magician and author of works on the occult. Eliphas Levi, whose real name was Alphonse Louis Constant, claimed to have summoned up the ghost of Apollonius of Tyana in London in 1854. Born in Paris about 1810, he is said to have been reincarnated as Aleister Crowley.
Aleister Crowley was the most influential Satanist of all time and Eliphas Levi had such a profound influence on Crowley, that Crowley actually believed that he was Eliphas Levi reincarnated. The influence of Levi can be seen not only on Freemasonry, but also upon modern Satanism. It can also be said of 'Crowley' that he was an occultist and a Freemason. John Charles Cooper said of Levi:
"He popularized occultism in Europe, and through Aleister Crowley, in America. Levi stressed magic as a means to power and emphasized sex and drug abuse."
Apollonius of Tyrana, who Eliphas Levi claimed to have summoned from the dead, was one of the earliest historical figures that pagans sought to establish as an anti-christ. He was born in A.D.16 and was a magician and adept occultist to whom many supernatural feats were attributed. In his book, The Phoenix, 33rd degree Mason Manly P. Hall entitles his chapter on Apollonius: "Apollonius, "The Antichrist"

[grandsecretary]

Amazing... I can see that the spiritual enlightenment you've received at the lodge has truely made you a better person. A little of the true colors of you and your cohorts on this forum just slipped out.

Please exclude me from this.

There were some very great mistakes made during World War II. The unnecessary destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were two of them as was the indiscriminate bombing of Dresden.

As for suggesting that it was karma, or revenge deserved, well I find such an assertion degrading and quite horribly disgusting.

My family fought in the two world wars. My father would not buy Japanese goods after the war, but he was intelligent enough to know that the atomic bomb was NOT needed because Japan was already finished militarily, and the power of the Generals was over. Japan was on its knees and the allies viciously kicked them when they were down on the floor.

We should have known better, and why oh why are Americans so crass and ignorant about all things historical? I fear for their education system, I really do.

[nihil]

Hey GS, what's about the

LUCIFER'S MASONIC LODGE

here above ??

[grandsecretary]

Hey GS, what's about the

LUCIFER'S MASONIC LODGE

here above ??

"What about" is not an intelligent question. What about what?

Do I think it exists. Do I think it is made of bailing twine. Do I think that it needs a coat of paint? What?

[nihil]

- The PEF was founded in 1865 with money from the British Crown, UGLE, the Rothschilds and the Church of England. The event commemorating it's founding was chaired by the Archbishop of York who proclaimed that the Holy Land was, by divine right, English Property...

The Quatuor Coronati Lodge (The Four Crowns Lodge) here above (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1251401&postcount=77)

[boots]

Quote:
Originally Posted by darketernal http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=345533#post345533)
Amazing... I can see that the spiritual enlightenment you've received at the lodge has truely made you a better person. A little of the true colors of you and your cohorts on this forum just slipped out.



Please exclude me from this.



We have.:D

.

[boots]

THE FREEMASONS
PLAN TO REBUILD
THE 3RD TEMPLE ON THE MOUNT

...with another one of their 'phallic obelisk ceremonies' - the abomination of desolation!

Remember that French & American Freemasons did the same type of occult goddess ceremony with the 'Statue of Liberty' in New York harbor.


"Expose Lucifers Masonic Lodge"

The Quatuor Coronati Lodge, (The Four Crowns Lodge)
- Founded as a special research lodge by the Grand Master of UGLE, the Prince of Wales, later King Edward VII, in 1884. The QC Lodge was then officially chartered in 1886.
- The inaugurating speech was entitled "Freemasonry as Seen in the Light of the Cabala."
- The lodge was to focus on Palestine, the Cabala, establishing a Jewish homeland, and rebuilding Solomon's Temple.
- Sir Charles Warren was the first grand master of the QC Lodge. He was also the president of the Palestine Exploration Fund, and two decades earlier had been the chief engineer for British excavations of the Temple Mount.
- Sir Walter Besant was a founding member of QC and was the treasurer of the Palestine Exploration Fund under Warren. Besant was the brother-in-law of Annie Besant, the president of the Theosophical Society after Helena Blavatsky.
- The PEF was founded in 1865 with money from the British Crown, UGLE, the Rothschilds and the Church of England. The event commemorating it's founding was chaired by the Archbishop of York who proclaimed that the Holy Land was, by divine right, English Property.
- In their recent books researchers Steven Knight and Melvyn Fairclough combine to paint a picture that implicates members of the Quatuor Coronati Lodge for the infamous Jack the Ripper murders in the late 1880's. They were covered up by Sir Charles Warren, who happened to be the Chief of London's Metropolitan Police.
"So when you see standing in the Holy Place "the abomination that causes desolation," spoken of through the prophet Daniel, let the reader understand - then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Matthew 24:15-16)


"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the Temple and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him." (Daniel 11:31-32)
.

LEVI, ELIPHAS French magician and author of works on the occult. Eliphas Levi, whose real name was Alphonse Louis Constant, claimed to have summoned up the ghost of Apollonius of Tyana in London in 1854. Born in Paris about 1810, he is said to have been reincarnated as Aleister Crowley.
Aleister Crowley was the most influential Satanist of all time and Eliphas Levi had such a profound influence on Crowley, that Crowley actually believed that he was Eliphas Levi reincarnated. The influence of Levi can be seen not only on Freemasonry, but also upon modern Satanism. It can also be said of 'Crowley' that he was an occultist and a Freemason. John Charles Cooper said of Levi:
"He popularized occultism in Europe, and through Aleister Crowley, in America. Levi stressed magic as a means to power and emphasized sex and drug abuse."
Apollonius of Tyrana, who Eliphas Levi claimed to have summoned from the dead, was one of the earliest historical figures that pagans sought to establish as an anti-christ. He was born in A.D.16 and was a magician and adept occultist to whom many supernatural feats were attributed. In his book, The Phoenix, 33rd degree Mason Manly P. Hall entitles his chapter on Apollonius: "Apollonius, "The Antichrist"

Good info.

Who said the masons dont dabble in world affairs. They do.

.

[grandsecretary]

Good info.

Who said the masons dont dabble in world affairs. They do.

.

I don't, and nor does any of the Grand Orients, including, but not exclusively, The Grand Orient of France, the Grand Orient of Italy, and the Grand Orient of the United states of America.

Hundreds of thousands of freemasons from around the world. Free Masons are at the very hub of national and world affairs, and have been for many centuries.

[kidsarocker]

Have been perusing David Icke on You Tube, and found some of what he says that I agree with (especially about 'Repeaters')!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Man you lot are picturing David Icke as the new Christ image, don't believe everything untill you research and cross reference, for example how many people believe Zeitgeist part 1 to be true when they have not done any research into its claims

Talk about switching from one religion to another, ask yourselves this..why is DI still alive?

[boots]

I don't, and nor does any of the Grand Orients, including, but not exclusively, The Grand Orient of France, the Grand Orient of Italy, and the Grand Orient of the United states of America.

Hundreds of thousands of freemasons from around the world. Free Masons are at the very hub of national and world affairs, and have been for many centuries.


Well I dont know if you do or you dont mate. How do you really know what other faction really get up too?

But as you said in the last paragraph. If they are in the "hub" of international affairs then they are influencing the out come, be it good or bad and at the moment its not looking to good.


.

[keystone]

I don't, and nor does any of the Grand Orients, including, but not exclusively, The Grand Orient of France, the Grand Orient of Italy, and the Grand Orient of the United states of America.

Oh c'mon the French and the Italians have dabbled since time immemorial - its in the continental nature and undeniable. JP's latest creation hasn't been around more than half a dogwatch so has no history either way.

Cheers

[keystone]

..........why is DI still alive?Why not?

Cheers

[nihil]

.
http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/9427/hitlergottmituns.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/InvertedRedPentagram/3_Triangles-1.jpg

Deus meumque Ius ( God and my Right )
.

The keystone is nothingness, the top is the personification of evil - satan - which simply doesn't exist.
This is the first deception of the new world order...
Then we have the morons... masons that indulge is various practices that simply
support the top of the N.W.O Pyramid: these are the Zionists, those who would like to put an antichrist (?) on the top of jerusalem.

Zionism: The Highest Stage of Imperialism (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79114)

jewish brotherhoods of the new world order (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80586)

the Red Pill thread (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79682)

Inshallah, they will fail.