Secret Society Member...

[archangel]

I was reading the one Thread here "ask a Mason" and felt compelled to share my opinion on this as I am also a member of a secret society which I will not name.

I joined this fraternity because after researching religion I found it to be a total scam but felt with in myself that 'GOD' was still real and knew there was a metaphysical part of this world. I joined as part of my quest to understand the concept of the supernatural, laws of the universe, and ancient occult histories.

I will say that I have learned nothing sinister in the form of their teachings and their underlying message is peace love unity etc along with teaching the individual the metaphysical aspects of reality and the universe. Knowledge is Nuetral. It is Not Good or Evil. How man uses it is what defines Good/Evil.

HOWEVER...

I noticed right away that all of their intentions that they so openly spell out are exactly what so called "conspiracy theorists" claim the elite are trying to accomplish. Are these strange events that are happening in the world by coincidence? or are they manipulated to accomplish a long term vision? Do people feel the end justifies the means? I would have to say from my research the answer is Yes and events are manipulated.

Further more, If people like the MASONs and other secret societies for that matter wish to end war and unite mankind. Why do they not speak out about their escoteric teachings? Why do they not expose formal relgion for what it is in an attempt to end the wars that we see all over the world that are done in the name of religion? why not show them through direct knowledge that we are devine beings to re-introduce a true sense of spirituality back into the masses which is almost but gone in todays age. These are things that I ponder. There is no threat of being hung or burned at the stake by the church in 2008, so I wonder why secret societies embrace the secrets that the catholic church has created. They were tortured for discussing these matters centuries ago, yet today they have they opportunity to reverse the table yet do nothing.

I do not believe Masonry to be Evil per say. Nor do I believe the majority of sectret societies to be evil in the traditional sense. But the act of hiding knowledge that is long over due to the world is evil in my opinion.

In closing, I would say that any mason or secret society member who claims there is nothing sinister or conspiratorial about escoteric fraternities is lieing to themselves. You may be a great person, masonry may have made you a better,enlightened and spiritural person. But Do not claim that you know everything that is going on in todays world and that the people who are ultimately at the top of governments and secret societies are peace loving hippies. Global history does not support this and if they had this dream of peace and love and advanced knowledge of the spiritual nature of things, it would have been introduced long ago.

just my 2 cents.

[danielson23uk]

I was reading the one Thread here "ask a Mason" and felt compelled to share my opinion on this as I am also a member of a secret society which I will not name.
That's where we differ. Freemasonry is NOT a secret society.

Have I not already said that several times before? I'm sure I have. Echo echo echo.....!

[chrism]

That's where we differ. Freemasonry is NOT a secret society.

Have I not already said that several times before? I'm sure I have. Echo echo echo.....!

To expand perhaps...

The masons have a lot of knowledge which is steeped in tradition and presented to the lodge meetings for the consideration of the attending brethren.

This information is not withheld from the public in any way, nor is it considered to be masonic secrets. Our secrets are only used to ensure that only masons are in the lodge rooms.

This may seem a bit of a paradox - the information is not secret but you can only get hold of it if YOU are a mason too - but that is not quite true.

On the internet, in books, on this forum as well as many others, anyone (mason or not) can ask any question about any part of this information and get answers from the masons.

Sometimes they will even strike lucky and ask their question of someone who knows enough about the subject to give them a full explanation and really KNOW his/her* subject.

Most of the time, especially on the forums, they are asking these questions of individual masons and personally I do not go into a huge amount of depth when studying esoterica and symbology etc. personal preferences etc. So what you get is opinion, much of which differs from mason to mason.

The question of intentions (as an organisation) is an interesting one. I am glad that the society you joined, Archangel, spelled out their intentions from the start. I must say that my experience of masonry was different - as far as I can remember I was joining a small group of like-minded men whose aim is to meet regularly, discuss 'folklore' and have a meal during which time discussions of charitable nature and other normal topics of conversation would take place. I certainly didn't join in order to rule the world!

Your experiences do obviously differ from mine, and I am grateful for you sharing them. It just goes to show that there may be many organisations out there, withholding secret information and possibly plotting to harm the country. I have no doubt that they will be blamed on masonry, and that makes me kind of sad.

Chris

*there are female masons too.

[archangel]

chrism,

lets not play word games. Ok so you want to say that they are not a secret society. They are a known society with secrets. :rolleyes: That is what my "Order" is then too if you want to word it that way.

Are you telling me that you've never heard/read about concepts of uniting man kind with a global government, new world religion, and reducing the world population?

I thought the one dollar bill was masonic? But I guess masons try to claim that the translations means "New Order of the Ages" and has nothing to do with a global NWO :rolleyes:

I wonder why then we hear Bush Sr and Bush Jr. flat out discuss the NWO in their presidential speeches. Aren't both of them Masons? I thought they were?

[chrism]

chrism,

lets not play word games. Ok so you want to say that they are not a secret society. They are a known society with secrets. :rolleyes: That is what my "Order" is then too if you want to word it that way.

Are you telling me that you've never heard/read about concepts of uniting man kind with a global government, new world religion, and reducing the world population?

I thought the one dollar bill was masonic? But I guess masons try to claim that the translations means "New Order of the Ages" and has nothing to do with a global NWO :rolleyes:

I wonder why then we hear Bush Sr and Bush Jr. flat out discuss the NWO in their presidential speeches. Aren't both of them Masons? I thought they were?

In answer to your first post, I see a huge difference between a secret society and a society with secrets. IN the first you deny membership (because the society itself is clandestine) and in the other you openly admit membership but have some words (for example) that are not communicated to a non-member. IT is as clear a difference to me as that between telling lies, and saying 'I cannot answer that question'.

Global Gov't, NWO - yes I have heard of them. Here. On this forum and others. Not as part of my masonic life!

As for reducing world population, why would you say that is a bad thing? We have scarcely enough food to ensure the world can eat, pressure on housing is building up and unless we are talking about extermination, genocide or other methods of murder, I would naturally assume this is a good thing for humanity as a whole.

I can not really relate to the other questions, being British, but would refer you to many other posts relating to the $1 (and other bills) where it is pointed out that many of the founding fathers of the USA were masons, and masonry has influenced the formation of that country. The four cardinal virtues of freemasonry are Fortitude, Temperance, Justice and Mercy - are you telling me those are bad too?

Chrism

[thelonious]

I thought the one dollar bill was masonic?

It is not. Although some believe that the Great Seal "looks" Masonic, it was actually designed by two non-Masons (Thomas Jefferson and John Adams).

But I guess masons try to claim that the translations means "New Order of the Ages" and has nothing to do with a global NWO.

"New Order For The Ages" does indeed refer to a New Order. Our forefathers believed that democracy, which was a new type of government at that time, would spread around the world.

I wonder why then we hear Bush Sr and Bush Jr. flat out discuss the NWO in their presidential speeches. Aren't both of them Masons? I thought they were?

No, neither of them are Masons. There have been 15 Presidents of the USA who have been Masons, the last one being Brother Gerald R. Ford. Sometimes, Reagan and Clinton are said to have been Masons, but neither of them were either.

[mike martin]

lets not play word games. Ok so you want to say that they are not a secret society. They are a known society with secrets. :rolleyes: That is what my "Order" is then too if you want to word it that way.
Seems to me that you may actually be in a proper, actually "secret" society if you're not allowed to tell people (even with the anonymity of the Internet) what it is. Notice that those of us who are Freemasons are acually telling you straight-out that we are and I for example am using my own name not a screen name.

Are you telling me that you've never heard/read about concepts of uniting man kind with a global government, new world religion, and reducing the world population?
I'm a Freemason and I've never seen such a thing contained within either our Ritual or our rules, although there is a bit talking about bringing together men who would otherwise have remained distant, though that isn't the same at all.

I thought the one dollar bill was masonic? But I guess masons try to claim that the translations means "New Order of the Ages" and has nothing to do with a global NWO :rolleyes:
No, the sybolism on the back of the US $1 bill was chosen to symbolise the coming together of the American States (ex colonies) into a new order of the ages, nothing to do with the rest of the world or all notes around the world would have it.

I wonder why then we hear Bush Sr and Bush Jr. flat out discuss the NWO in their presidential speeches. Aren't both of them Masons? I thought they were?
Probably they use it to describe the phenomenan of "Globalisation" but as neither of them are freemasons (but rather Bonesmen which is not connected) it's not relevant to Freemasonry. Maybe Skull n' Bones want to take over the World.

Mike

[chrism]

I knew there would be someone out there who knows more about this than me!

Chrism

[adramelech]

It is not. Although some believe that the Great Seal "looks" Masonic, it was actually designed by two non-Masons (Thomas Jefferson and John Adams).

1) The Great Seal was determined over three committies consisting of far more than two people.

2) You don't have to be a Freemason to employ Masonic symbolism.

Benjamin Franklin was involved and William Barton contributed heavily to what would become the final design, although his status as a Freemason is unclear.

Ultimately, your view on this is going to boil down to your ability to recognize Freemasonry as an arm of a visible network of societies in history, not a completely independent organization which spontaneously emerged in Europe.


"New Order For The Ages" does indeed refer to a New Order. Our forefathers believed that democracy, which was a new type of government at that time, would spread around the world.

It's a reference to widespread, worldwide societal change and reformation, as outlined in the Fama Fraternitatis. Democracy, eh, not so much from my point of view. Your interpretation of whether this global reformation is good or bad will depend on your loyalties.

Seems to me that you may actually be in a proper, actually "secret" society if you're not allowed to tell people (even with the anonymity of the Internet) what it is. Notice that those of us who are Freemasons are acually telling you straight-out that we are and I for example am using my own name not a screen name.

"Secret" in "secret society" does not refer to knowledge of existence, membership or even activities. It refers to the "secrets" of the esoteric knowledge and internal language/symbolism, similar to the "mystery" schools of the ancient world. Nothing mysterious about them when you have the knowledge, yet the use remains.

[mike martin]

"Secret" in "secret society" does not refer to knowledge of existence, membership or even activities. It refers to the "secrets" of the esoteric knowledge and internal language/symbolism, similar to the "mystery" schools of the ancient world. Nothing mysterious about them when you have the knowledge, yet the use remains.

So even by your definition Freemasonry is not a "secret society" as I have shown several times on this Forum. The secrets in Freemasonry are actually the signs, grips and tokens and you can look them up on the Net (along with its esoteric lessons) if you actally want to.

Ergo: neither secret nor with secrets.:D

Mike

[eternal_spirit]

Do you think there is other secret orders that are reserved for the chosen/picked by those allready in the more secret orders. Be it for their bloodlines/genes, influence, money or anything else they may have to offer which would serve these more secret orders?

Compartmentalisation would also be used, those at the top would be more privy to certain knowledge etc.

Orders from above, is a term used especially in the Miltary and other groups.

Third generation Masons from the same family are allowed to go onto to higher Orders, degrees 360 a nice round figure.

[adramelech]

So even by your definition Freemasonry is not a "secret society" as I have shown several times on this Forum. The secrets in Freemasonry are actually the signs, grips and tokens and you can look them up on the Net (along with its esoteric lessons) if you actally want to.

Ergo: neither secret nor with secrets.:D

Mike

Nah, I'm actually agreeing with what you said here, but maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. Terms like "secret society" and "mystery school" are referring to uncommon uses of the words.

"secret, adjective

Having an import not apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence; beyond ordinary understanding

A reason or explanation not immediately or generally apparent"

If I use a particular symbol to represent an esoteric concept, it remains "secret" or "occult" even if you can go to Google and look up the meaning. It's just a matter of semantics or etymology.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=mystery

[adramelech]

Do you think there is other secret orders that are reserved for the chosen/picked by those allready in the more secret orders. Be it for their bloodlines/genes, influence, money or anything else they may have to offer which would serve these more secret orders?

Compartmentalisation would also be used, those at the top would be more privy to certain knowledge etc.

While most Masons are aware of the assortment of organizations they can join, the existence of an absolute pyramidal structure of power among secret societies is almost always denied. This will always be the case for various reasons.

Such an organization, assuming it exists, would be perfectly compartmentalized. As such, an initiate would have no knowledge of higher degrees until they had attained them. Individuals deemed untrustworthy or undesirable (an overwhelming majority) would never advance far enough to be privy to the structure and thus would adamantly deny its existence.

Most of all, every society is made to believe that it is largely independent, existing free of or parallel to other orders. Implications that higher forces were playing branches of European Masonry against one another during the 18th century are often scoffed at for instance.

A structure only become apparent if you start at the beginning of recorded history and work your way up.

[geronimo]

I was reading the one Thread here "ask a Mason" and felt compelled to share my opinion on this as I am also a member of a secret society which I will not name.

I joined this fraternity because after researching religion I found it to be a total scam but felt with in myself that 'GOD' was still real and knew there was a metaphysical part of this world. I joined as part of my quest to understand the concept of the supernatural, laws of the universe, and ancient occult histories.

I will say that I have learned nothing sinister in the form of their teachings and their underlying message is peace love unity etc along with teaching the individual the metaphysical aspects of reality and the universe. Knowledge is Nuetral. It is Not Good or Evil. How man uses it is what defines Good/Evil.

HOWEVER...

I noticed right away that all of their intentions that they so openly spell out are exactly what so called "conspiracy theorists" claim the elite are trying to accomplish. Are these strange events that are happening in the world by coincidence? or are they manipulated to accomplish a long term vision? Do people feel the end justifies the means? I would have to say from my research the answer is Yes and events are manipulated.

Further more, If people like the MASONs and other secret societies for that matter wish to end war and unite mankind. Why do they not speak out about their escoteric teachings? Why do they not expose formal relgion for what it is in an attempt to end the wars that we see all over the world that are done in the name of religion? why not show them through direct knowledge that we are devine beings to re-introduce a true sense of spirituality back into the masses which is almost but gone in todays age. These are things that I ponder. There is no threat of being hung or burned at the stake by the church in 2008, so I wonder why secret societies embrace the secrets that the catholic church has created. They were tortured for discussing these matters centuries ago, yet today they have they opportunity to reverse the table yet do nothing.

I do not believe Masonry to be Evil per say. Nor do I believe the majority of sectret societies to be evil in the traditional sense. But the act of hiding knowledge that is long over due to the world is evil in my opinion.

In closing, I would say that any mason or secret society member who claims there is nothing sinister or conspiratorial about escoteric fraternities is lieing to themselves. You may be a great person, masonry may have made you a better,enlightened and spiritural person. But Do not claim that you know everything that is going on in todays world and that the people who are ultimately at the top of governments and secret societies are peace loving hippies. Global history does not support this and if they had this dream of peace and love and advanced knowledge of the spiritual nature of things, it would have been introduced long ago.

just my 2 cents.

Spot on, mate.

geronimo

[thelonious]

Third generation Masons from the same family are allowed to go onto to higher Orders, degrees 360 a nice round figure.

One's "generations" are irrelevant in Masonry. None of my family were Masons, and I've gone through pretty much all the different Orders, including the invitational ones. Candidates for the invitational degrees are chosen on merit, not family (all Masons are considered brothers, i.e., family).

[the guy in pink]

I am also a member of a secret society which I will not name .
That makes sense at least, if you named the secret society if would no longer be a secret society.

[archangel]

Just to clarify things stated in this thread.

1. Masons have never heard of (in their lodge) or wish to achieve a NWO/Global Gov't :rolleyes:
2. Masons do not wish to to reduce world population :rolleyes:
3. George Bush has ZERO ties to Freemasonry at all :rolleyes:

I only wonder why then, George W. gave a speech once that said "Our Forefathers envisioned something they referred to as The New Order of the Ages...AND IT IS MEANT TO BE FULLFILLED!!" What is this "New order of the ages" that has yet to be accomplished that was envisioned?? also, why does he care what they envisioned if he has no ties to them?

personally, I actually agree with alot of the NWO philosphies. However, what bothers me are events that I find highly suspicious that seem to be done or happen by "coincidence" that move us closer to these NWO objectives. I believe these goals should be accomplished through education and peace and only war if necessary. Not through lies and deception.


I would like to pose these question to the masons.


Why is it important for the information of your brotherhood to be hidden?
basically why is there freemasonry at all and why is your knowledge not shared with the rest of the world?

What is the goal of freemasonry? Please be as specific as possible and state how the organization tries to achieve these objectives.

[jacob sladder]

Just to clarify things stated in this thread.

1. Masons have never heard of (in their lodge) or wish to achieve a NWO/Global Gov't :rolleyes:
2. Masons do not wish to to reduce world population :rolleyes:
3. George Bush has ZERO ties to Freemasonry at all :rolleyes:

I only wonder why then, George W. gave a speech once that said "Our Forefathers envisioned something they referred to as The New Order of the Ages...AND IT IS MEANT TO BE FULLFILLED!!" What is this "New order of the ages" that has yet to be accomplished that was envisioned?? also, why does he care what they envisioned if he has no ties to them?

personally, I actually agree with alot of the NWO philosphies. However, what bothers me are events that I find highly suspicious that seem to be done or happen by "coincidence" that move us closer to these NWO objectives. I believe these goals should be accomplished through education and peace and only war if necessary. Not through lies and deception.


I would like to pose these question to the masons.


Why is it important for the information of your brotherhood to be hidden?
basically why is there freemasonry at all and why is your knowledge not shared with the rest of the world?

What is the goal of freemasonry? Please be as specific as possible and state how the organization tries to achieve these objectives.

Quick ansswers to your questions as I'm off to work:

1. Have NEVER heard NWO mentioned in any Lodge I've been in or visited nor 'world government'. In my experience (23 years) we do not discuss such matters. More interested in having a drink / companionship, raising money for charity.

2. As far as I know Masons do not wish to reduce the population (why would they?). I expect quite a few Male Masons have had vasectomies / or Lady Masons Hysterectomies / sterilisations....

3. Again it has been said here and elsewhere, that G.Bush is not a Mason. He is I've read, a member of 'Skull and Bones' fraternity (which I don't know much about). It's an American thing..

Not heard of 'New Order of the Ages' except on this forum. I expect someone will be along soon with greater knowledge.

AND.. The info re Freemasonry is not 'hidden' - it is all over the internet, there are Masonic halls in most towns. Info' re Rituals is feely available these days.

Can't go into the history of Masonry now - it allegedly originally evolved from stonemasons, who in an age in which few people could read and write, had signals (signs and words) taught to them to show that were properly qualified to carry out different levels of building works.

Goal - of current Freeemasonry? To make good men better by polishing off their rough edges using morality plays and a reflection on symbols to achieve this in a moral context. Provide Charity for Masons and non-Masons alike, provide companionship and to be a force for good in society.

That is not to say that the NWO are non existent I don't believe for one second that they are connected with Freemasonry - it they were, I would not be a member.

Must go now to do Lizardly things - the world govenment can't wait! (Irony).
:rolleyes:

[gracimusic]

Hi. David Icke's theory is that the secret societies are all compartimentalised, in a way that the lower levels don't know about the real agenda of the ones at the top. Could it be that you guys don't know what's really going on? (no offence).

[danielson23uk]

Hi. David Icke's theory is that the secret societies are all compartimentalised, in a way that the lower levels don't know about the real agenda of the ones at the top. Could it be that you guys don't know what's really going on? (no offence).

That's the beauty of conspiracy theories gracimusic. But on that rationale, would you not think that as members, we'd still know more than you?

[chrism]

That's the beauty of conspiracy theories gracimusic. But on that rationale, would you not think that as members, we'd still know more than you?

Or, for that matter, would you agree that the David Icke organisation could also be corrupt and the only one who knows what is going on is David himself?

He is trying to control the minds of individual forum members without them knowing?

I am not trying to suggest that this is the case, but the rationale behind your statement would also apply itself to this.

Some of you seem to think that we all join masonry to influence others and corruptly control the country, and by that logic we are certainly playing second fiddle to the Womens' Institute. They have more members, I am excluded on grounds of gender and they have secrets too (Try to get her recipe for a Victoria Sponge out of my mum...).

We all join clubs, societies and institutions for our own reasons. Some join choirs to sing and others go line dancing and 'conform' with all of the other dancers. People join quilting clubs, knitting circles and lace-working clubs, making small (or large) items which they sell for charity.

We are essentially an amateur dramatics club with a penchant for ancient (or antient) murder mysteries and out-of-tune musical numbers (the odes... the odes!). We have members old and young, and a huge spectrum of acting ability. Frankly if we did open our 'shows' to the public the critics would have a field day.

But why we do it? Maybe we are just the nerds who liked role-play at school, joined the Dungeons & dragons club and had pockets full of pens, or maybe we just like the camaraderie and the crap jokes at the meal afterwards. It is probably only after meeting enough of us that you would realise that world domination is not within our grasp at all!

Even so - with GWB I would look for the masonic influence in his speech writer, not himself. I am fairly sure he is only just aware of what day of the week it is, so his comments are likely not his own. Unless he is talking about childrens' books of course.

Chris

[archangel]

Quick ansswers to your questions as I'm off to work:

1. Have NEVER heard NWO mentioned in any Lodge I've been in or visited nor 'world government'. In my experience (23 years) we do not discuss such matters. More interested in having a drink / companionship, raising money for charity.

2. As far as I know Masons do not wish to reduce the population (why would they?). I expect quite a few Male Masons have had vasectomies / or Lady Masons Hysterectomies / sterilisations....

3. Again it has been said here and elsewhere, that G.Bush is not a Mason. He is I've read, a member of 'Skull and Bones' fraternity (which I don't know much about). It's an American thing..

Not heard of 'New Order of the Ages' except on this forum. I expect someone will be along soon with greater knowledge.

AND.. The info re Freemasonry is not 'hidden' - it is all over the internet, there are Masonic halls in most towns. Info' re Rituals is feely available these days.

Can't go into the history of Masonry now - it allegedly originally evolved from stonemasons, who in an age in which few people could read and write, had signals (signs and words) taught to them to show that were properly qualified to carry out different levels of building works.

Goal - of current Freeemasonry? To make good men better by polishing off their rough edges using morality plays and a reflection on symbols to achieve this in a moral context. Provide Charity for Masons and non-Masons alike, provide companionship and to be a force for good in society.

That is not to say that the NWO are non existent I don't believe for one second that they are connected with Freemasonry - it they were, I would not be a member.

Must go now to do Lizardly things - the world govenment can't wait! (Irony).
:rolleyes:

those were some pretty poor answers too all of my questions.

You didn't answer what you """thought""" bush was referring to when he spoke about fullfilling the New Order of the Ages envisioned by the the founding fathers.

Nor did you answer

Why is there freemasonry at all?
Why can't you not go into the history of Freemasonry?
Why do they have to keep their information secret? what is the reason?

Chrism and other masons...Please review my post original post with the questions and give your response if you have some time. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

[thelonious]

Just to clarify things stated in this thread.

1. Masons have never heard of (in their lodge) or wish to achieve a NWO/Global Gov't

Political governments are necessary evils in the profane world. But the Lodge and profane world are distinct from each other.

2. Masons do not wish to to reduce world population

What would reducing world population have to do with Fremasonry?

3. George Bush has ZERO ties to Freemasonry at all

George Bush is not a Mason, nor has ever expressed any interest in becoming one.

I only wonder why then, George W. gave a speech once that said "Our Forefathers envisioned something they referred to as The New Order of the Ages...AND IT IS MEANT TO BE FULLFILLED!!" What is this "New order of the ages" that has yet to be accomplished that was envisioned?? also, why does he care what they envisioned if he has no ties to them?

What does what he said, that you quoted above, have to do with Freemasonry?


Why is it important for the information of your brotherhood to be hidden?

It isn't. Most Lodges even have websites that give details on Freemasonry.

basically why is there freemasonry at all and why is your knowledge not shared with the rest of the world?

I'm not sure why this question keeps being asked here. Anyone who thinks Masonic knowledge is not shared needs to visit a library. Masons having been writing Masonic books for centuries, attempting to share knowledge.

What is the goal of freemasonry? Please be as specific as possible and state how the organization tries to achieve these objectives.

Freemasonry has various goals. The first is to teach the basic principles of universal brotherhood. Arising from this comes the basic teachings of universal benevolence, and charitable endeavors.

Then, on a more philosophical level, it's goal is self-knowledge and self-mastery.

[chrism]

Chrism and other masons...Please review my post original post with the questions and give your response if you have some time. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Wilco. At work at the moment but will try to have a look later.

Cheers,

C

[the guy in pink]

I only wonder why then, George W. gave a speech once that said "Our Forefathers envisioned something they referred to as The New Order of the Ages...AND IT IS MEANT TO BE FULLFILLED!!" What is this "New order of the ages" that has yet to be accomplished that was envisioned?? also, why does he care what they envisioned if he has no ties to them?


The American forefathers had almost all recently escaped from feudal Europe, where there was no religious freedom, rule was by the whim of King, Prince or dictator, and merit was always subservient to heritage.

Those Forefathers established and installed a New Order of the Ages in The USA. A New Order where there was Religious Freedom and tolerance, rule by the people, Justice, Equality before the law and reward for merit.

It is not surprising that American presidents make speeches which refer to the remarkable feat of their forefathers.

[adramelech]

That's the beauty of conspiracy theories gracimusic. But on that rationale, would you not think that as members, we'd still know more than you?

No. No I don't.

I've said it elsewhere on this forum and I'll repeat it - most followers of a particular belief system or esoteric school are either notably biased because of their devotion and familiarity with it, or they're completely manipulated by it. No offense to anyone on this forum (really, there's some good minds here), but I find debating hidden objectives or histories of Freemasonry with a Freemason akin to debating the brainwashing and abuse tactics of Scientology with a devout Scientologist. They are, for the most part, so completely entrenched in a biased viewpoint they can't step back and see things objectively. I'm sure a member of the Nazi party in the 1930s would have told you what a wonderful organization it was also.

A common misconception about conspiracy theories concerning secret societies is that they imply that every rank and file Freemason getting drunk at some half-baked Lodge erected next to a video rental store is secretly in on a nebulous shadow conspiracy. Not true - complete opposite in fact. More often than not, these guys are seen as the height of the controlled. Historically, especially in the time since the formation of the Mother Grand Lodge and the emergence of movements like the "Strict Observance", these unsuspecting members are duped by promises of personal improvement, wealth or power and used as tools of sweeping change. Afterall, it's very convenient to have a bunch of guys ready to dress up like Indians and throw tea into a harbor or fire into a group of French ambassadors if your goal is to fan the flames of rebellion in secret.

Conspiracy researchers are only concerned with the absolute highest echelons of power, the realm of the "Secret Chiefs" or the "Unknown Superior" types, not Joe Blow Master Mason driving around with his square and compass bumper sticker.

[eternal_spirit]

quote: adramelech

Conspiracy researchers are only concerned with the absolute highest echelons of power, the realm of the "Secret Chiefs" or the "Unknown Superior" types, not Joe Blow Master Mason driving around with his square and compass bumper sticker.

................................
This is it. And the lower levels deny any existance of any higher echelons so far on this forum.

And too the Masons spare me the lecture about the levels/degress. My advice to you Masons is to go read up on these theories. David Icke and Alan Watt is a good place to start......

[jacob sladder]

those were some pretty poor answers too all of my questions.

You didn't answer what you """thought""" bush was referring to when he spoke about fullfilling the New Order of the Ages envisioned by the the founding fathers.

Nor did you answer

Why is there freemasonry at all?
Why can't you not go into the history of Freemasonry?
Why do they have to keep their information secret? what is the reason?

Chrism and other masons...Please review my post original post with the questions and give your response if you have some time. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

So sorry you didn't like my answers. I have not got time to write the world history of Freemasonry as I have to work; and as I said, all the supposed 'secrets' are plastered over the Internet.

Sorry you cannot make the connection as to why Freemasonry should have developed from ancient Operative stonemasons. Google / wikipaedia is a wonderful invention...

I do not know of Bush's speech re 'New order of the ages' or whatever - I have never read it, or indeed know much about the 'Founding Fathers' whom I assume are something to do with the founding of America. I am an English Freemason - I know a bit about them... so I don't have any 'thoughts' about New Order of the Ages: And admit I do not know what George Bush may have been alluding to.
Or much care....

[perry_mason]

ES, Adramelech and others,

I expect all the Masons on this forum are aware of the 'secret society within a secret society' theory and were before they started posting, it's been around for ages and there as of now been no evidence for this, just conjecture and mudslinging. Just as you say it would be difficult for a Mason to subjectively view the organisation to which they belong, I put it to you that you are also unable to subjectively look at the conspiracy theories you espouse and the also the founders of those theories: You are blinded to the sheer ridiculousness of some of the subjects on this site by your zeal.

My opinion.

[mike martin]

those were some pretty poor answers too all of my questions.

You didn't answer what you """thought""" bush was referring to when he spoke about fullfilling the New Order of the Ages envisioned by the the founding fathers.

Nor did you answer

Why is there freemasonry at all?
Why can't you not go into the history of Freemasonry?
Why do they have to keep their information secret? what is the reason?

Chrism and other masons...Please review my post original post with the questions and give your response if you have some time. I'd like to hear what you have to say.

Hey didn't you read my post the, I answered your questions, although I didn't answer the new ones as you've added them

Why is there Freemasonry?
Well that's like asking why is there a Parliament or a Ministry of defence, its a historical thing It happened and it stayed.

Why can't you not go into the history of Freemasonry?
I don't understand what you mean.

Why do we keep our information secret?
Well that really is a silly question! If we keep our information secret how do you all know so much more about it than we do??.

Mike

[gracimusic]

The fact that the knowledge and philosophy of the lower ranks of Freemasonery is publicly known , it makes it a non-secret society. At least at those levels. That's why we can't compare what is being boiled there with the conspiracy theories motu. Anyway, I don't think anybody should join any type of secret society, the same as not taking too seriously any conspiracy theory. What matters is your inner growing.:rolleyes:

[mike martin]

No. No I don't.

I've said it elsewhere on this forum and I'll repeat it - most followers of a particular belief system or esoteric school are either notably biased because of their devotion and familiarity with it, or they're completely manipulated by it. No offense to anyone on this forum (really, there's some good minds here), but I find debating hidden objectives or histories of Freemasonry with a Freemason akin to debating the brainwashing and abuse tactics of Scientology with a devout Scientologist. They are, for the most part, so completely entrenched in a biased viewpoint they can't step back and see things objectively. I'm sure a member of the Nazi party in the 1930s would have told you what a wonderful organization it was also.

A common misconception about conspiracy theories concerning secret societies is that they imply that every rank and file Freemason getting drunk at some half-baked Lodge erected next to a video rental store is secretly in on a nebulous shadow conspiracy. Not true - complete opposite in fact. More often than not, these guys are seen as the height of the controlled. Historically, especially in the time since the formation of the Mother Grand Lodge and the emergence of movements like the "Strict Observance", these unsuspecting members are duped by promises of personal improvement, wealth or power and used as tools of sweeping change. Afterall, it's very convenient to have a bunch of guys ready to dress up like Indians and throw tea into a harbor or fire into a group of French ambassadors if your goal is to fan the flames of rebellion in secret.

Conspiracy researchers are only concerned with the absolute highest echelons of power, the realm of the "Secret Chiefs" or the "Unknown Superior" types, not Joe Blow Master Mason driving around with his square and compass bumper sticker.

................................
This is it. And the lower levels deny any existance of any higher echelons so far on this forum.

And too the Masons spare me the lecture about the levels/degress. My advice to you Masons is to go read up on these theories. David Icke and Alan Watt is a good place to start......


Yep and I bet it never even occurs to you to wonder why exactly it is that all of these theories that involve Freemasonry only do it on the strength of a handful of the thousands of books written about Freemasonry and not the Rituals of it.

You see when I started off as an anti-Mason after reading "The Brotherhood" I bought a Ritual book from a second-hand book shop and read it, that was how I realised that I was being misled by a man seeking only after the blessing of Mammon.

But hey, whatever floats your boat:D

Mike

[danielson23uk]

The fact that the knowledge and philosophy of the lower ranks of Freemasonery is publicly known , it makes it a non-secret society. At least at those levels. That's why we can't compare what is being boiled there with the conspiracy theories motu. Anyway, I don't think anybody should join any type of secret society, the same as not taking too seriously any conspiracy theory. What matters is your inner growing.:rolleyes:

It's not a Secret Society gracimusic, hence me starting this thread to answer your questions. I didn't start it for you to tell me that my answers were inaccurate due to being not senior enough for you. So who is senior enough? Will you just keep ignoring us all until one decides to tell you what you want to hear? Sometimes you should just listen rather than talk about how you're listening.

[danielson23uk]

Yep and I bet it never even occurs to you to wonder why exactly it is that all of these theories that involve Freemasonry only do it on the strength of a handful of the thousands of books written about Freemasonry and not the Rituals of it.

You see when I started off as an anti-Mason after reading "The Brotherhood" I bought a Ritual book from a second-hand book shop and read it, that was how I realised that I was being misled by a man seeking only after the blessing of Mammon.

But hey, whatever floats your boat:D
Mike

Yes Mike, but have you never considered that The Brotherhood was such a wank book that it must have been deliberately published with Illuminati funding to convince people to join their Secret Society as mere puppet foot soldiers?

[eyedontbelieveu]

Been sitting back for a minute now and I must say, these threads going back and forth are silly and full of bullsh!t. Stop asking one's who either won'tshare the knowledge or don't have it. Do your own research. A gut feeling telling you something is awry, usually means something is. Do your own research. I'm making this stance for good reason.

PEACE

[eternal_spirit]

Yep and I bet it never even occurs to you to wonder why exactly it is that all of these theories that involve Freemasonry only do it on the strength of a handful of the thousands of books written about Freemasonry and not the Rituals of it.

You see when I started off as an anti-Mason after reading "The Brotherhood" I bought a Ritual book from a second-hand book shop and read it, that was how I realised that I was being misled by a man seeking only after the blessing of Mammon.

But hey, whatever floats your boat:D

Mike
.....................

The Brotherhood, who wrote that?
My advice David Icke The Biggest Secret, or Alan Watt he has three books which I haven't read yet, but covers much about Masons in his talks and written transcripts, this would give you an idea of the other side of the coin.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=332517&postcount=56

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=333721&postcount=60

[mike martin]

Been sitting back for a minute now and I must say, these threads going back and forth are silly and full of bullsh!t. Stop asking one's who either won'tshare the knowledge or don't have it. Do your own research. A gut feeling telling you something is awry, usually means something is. Do your own research. I'm making this stance for good reason.

Yes quite right!

Rather than asking Masons who know or being fed disinfo by people with an agenda why not actually read some of these books about Freemasonry rather than tiny snippets that fit the agenda of the aforementioned people and see for yourselves if what the books actually say ties up with what you're being told.

I did and as a result ended up joining because it wasn't what I'd been told it was.

Just another point, you have at least one 32nd Degree, one 18th Degree and a few of us who have joined Appendant Orders beyond Master Mason that are not numbered. Do try not to fall into the usual cop-out of "not high enough so don't know", some of us are and we do.

I think that it has been fairly demonstrated that we know much much more about the subject than any non-Masons can tell you. Just because what you're reading doesn't scan with what you think or believe does not make us wrong but it should make you all (if you are actually looking for the truth) think and examine things from a different perspective.

Don't you?

Mike

[mike martin]

.....................

The Brotherhood, who wrote that?
My advice David Icke The Biggest Secret, or Alan Watt he has three books which I haven't read yet, but covers much about Masons in his talks and written transcripts, this would give you an idea of the other side of the coin.

What are you on 10% or something?

The Brotherhood was written by Stephen Knight, I take it you only do Icke and stable mates then.

As to the other side of the coin, when you point me to a real verifyable Mason making these claims without an "axe to grind", I may well have a read.

Mike

[eternal_spirit]

What are you on 10% or something?

The Brotherhood was written by Stephen Knight, I take it you only do Icke and stable mates then.

As to the other side of the coin, when you point me to a real verifyable Mason making these claims without an "axe to grind", I may well have a read.

Mike

...................

Whatever Mike, we're no further on agreeing than when you all first arrived here. You'll never accept that there's higher levels and orders etc. Some of us here will see the others side of the story than what you are telling us. No, I don't think you and your friends are bad guys, but you don't know the bigger picture about Freemasonry and the plans and how it works at the to that's my opinion and know you won't believe or agree.

Doubt you can even accept the Rothchilds and Rockefellers the Banking Cabals ect fund Wars which destroy whole Countries/Nations economies by way of charging interest on the loans for Wars. And the Financers and stock Market, big businesses also play a part in it.

Facism and Communism are set up and funded by the same sources, the goal of the New World Order is to create a third way/wave, which is a synthesis/amalgamation of Capitalism and Communism that's what's coming next.

But will be more like a Communist Manifesto, China is the ideal model for the NWO, the Elite/PTB tried many different social/systems/societies and seems they see China as the perfect slaves and Masters type of society for the future. Communism/Marxism never wen't away, just got bigger and bigger... and is one of the greatest evils of this World.

BTW one of thos links shows where Alan Watt get's much of his info from on Freemasons, books written by Freemasons and other Government Documents and other sources he provides evidence to back up his claims on much of his works. He's been offered places in High Masonic orders and knows people on the inside. There's good and bad up there, some don't want the NWO.

[danielson23uk]

Whatever Mike, we're no further on agreeing than when you all first arrived here. You'll never accept that there's higher levels and orders etc. Some of us here will see the others side of the story than what you are telling us. No, I don't think you and your friends are bad guys, but you don't know the bigger picture about Freemasonry and the plans and how it works at the to that's my opinion and know you won't believe or agree.

ES, there is no "other side". Regardless of what you think we know, we still know more about it than you and if nothing else I think you'll concede that we haven't lied or mislead you on here.
Everyone on here keeps bleeting on about the '..the truth is hidden in plain sight..'. YES it IS. I hope one day you'll be able to see it ES instead of looking too hard for it.

[the duke]

Do you think there is other secret orders that are reserved for the chosen/picked by those allready in the more secret orders. Be it for their bloodlines/genes, influence, money or anything else they may have to offer which would serve these more secret orders?

Compartmentalisation would also be used, those at the top would be more privy to certain knowledge etc.

Orders from above, is a term used especially in the Miltary and other groups.

Third generation Masons from the same family are allowed to go onto to higher Orders, degrees 360 a nice round figure.

If this is the case, that the guys at the top, the very top are in some way devious and dastardly, what does this have to do with Freemasonry in General and Freemasons? If the lower ranks are not privy to this devious knowledge, then logically, they can not be doing anything devious!!! And if the lower ranks represent 99.9% of Freemasonry, then Freemasonry is almost entirely good, with nothing devious going on! You see this simple logic! The fact that a small room of gentlemen possibly up to no good may be going on, but if anybody lower in the organisation doesn't know about it, then the only place in time and space that dodgyness is going on is in that room with those men!!!

Comments?

[icke and ham]

Originally Posted by eternal_spirit
Whatever Mike, we're no further on agreeing than when you all first arrived here. You'll never accept that there's higher levels and orders etc.


Still confused here. Who shuld i ask about freemasonary - mike martin* who is one or ES who knows a lot more than him?

Perhaps all mason's shuld join up through ES as he is a better expert than someone whose been in it for years?

* Second family has said mike martin is a masonic name. if i joined wuld I have to call myself mike martin in the lodge? :D again, how much real stuff does second family know? i suspect not much

[mike martin]

Whatever Mike, we're no further on agreeing than when you all first arrived here. You'll never accept that there's higher levels and orders etc. Some of us here will see the others side of the story than what you are telling us. No, I don't think you and your friends are bad guys, but you don't know the bigger picture about Freemasonry and the plans and how it works at the to that's my opinion and know you won't believe or agree.
Let me put it to you like this:
You and the other conspiracists here only had information about freemasonry that was being fed to you by non-Masons with an agenda, working from a handful of books written about the subject and a whole heap of imagination.

Then suddenly and totally by accident you had a fantastic source (one which I might add all the best conspiracists claim to have) actual "dyed in the wool" freemasons offering to talk about it and not even nutters like Zagamoumi and Shellingbum.

When we arrived on this Forum, you guys actually knew zip about Freemasonry, despite what you think you knew, now unless you're just totally locked into the Conspiracy agenda you have more genuine info than you've ever had before and it's from the horse's mouth.

Do with it what you will but please try to engage your brain about it..

Doubt you can even accept the Rothchilds and Rockefellers the Banking Cabals ect fund Wars which destroy whole Countries/Nations economies by way of charging interest on the loans for Wars. And the Financers and stock Market, big businesses also play a part in it.
The difference between us on this is that I won't just jump and shout accusations at people I neither know or even heard of until I came here. If there is evidence of such occurences these people will be brought to book.

Facism and Communism are set up and funded by the same sources, the goal of the New World Order is to create a third way/wave, which is a synthesis/amalgamation of Capitalism and Communism that's what's coming next.
With a logical eye I can see that this is just a silly claim but all the same it has nothing to do with Freemasonry. If we (Freemasons) were trying to organise a NWO we would have at least stopped having separate and distinct Grand Lodges all over the place.

But will be more like a Communist Manifesto, China is the ideal model for the NWO, the Elite/PTB tried many different social/systems/societies and seems they see China as the perfect slaves and Masters type of society for the future. Communism/Marxism never wen't away, just got bigger and bigger... and is one of the greatest evils of this World.
Not my specialism!

BTW one of thos links shows where Alan Watt get's much of his info from on Freemasons, books written by Freemasons and other Government Documents and other sources he provides evidence to back up his claims on much of his works. He's been offered places in High Masonic orders and knows people on the inside. There's good and bad up there, some don't want the NWO.
I've been offered places in Orders you wouldn't believe, it don't mean jackshit, as to the rest I've already said that getting info about Freemasonry from books about it, is just getting info about books about it.

Mike

[axcunningxstunt]

My first thought when I read the OPs' first post was this guy isn't a Mason and wasn't going to read any more. But I've read every post in all five pages and found it to be an enjoyable read.

Like someone said in an earlier post, if you want to know the truth about something as best you can, try and read as much on the subject as possible and from both sides of the fence, then do a bit of research yourself.

Some very good points by the Masons', who made this thread an interesting read.

[jimmi]

just a reminder to anyone reading this, the majority of freemasons posting here have arrived with the intention to disrupt,confuse and deny any truth seeker searching for 'answers'. Have faith in yourself and your truth will give you the freedom your spirit desires. You are the only teacher you have ever needed.

[adramelech]

Let me put it to you like this:
You and the other conspiracists here only had information about freemasonry that was being fed to you by non-Masons with an agenda, working from a handful of books written about the subject and a whole heap of imagination.

Then suddenly and totally by accident you had a fantastic source (one which I might add all the best conspiracists claim to have) actual "dyed in the wool" freemasons offering to talk about it and not even nutters like Zagamoumi and Shellingbum.

When we arrived on this Forum, you guys actually knew zip about Freemasonry, despite what you think you knew, now unless you're just totally locked into the Conspiracy agenda you have more genuine info than you've ever had before and it's from the horse's mouth.


Are you being facetious or is this actually meant to be a serious statement? You sound exactly like a Scientologist I've debated and several of those wonderful door to door Witnesses. All sorts of devotees, really. "Now you know the real truth from a believer, all other teachings are evil lies and spurious propaganda!"

For heaven's sake, I had a Scientologist claim to me that Operation Snow White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White) was a set-up by the government to attack the Church. And you know what? He probably truly believed it - he was low-ranking, only OT3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_Thetan#OT_III:_The_Wall_of_Fire)

You belong to a cult. You are an adherent to a similar system of heirarchal knowledge/understanding of the cult teaching. Your information primarily comes from sources inside the cult, cult doctrine or other higher-ranking cult members. Only the Order "gets it" and all others are liars and frauds, especially those attempting to expose the Church. Go ahead and rigorously debate the use of the word "cult" if you want - the fact remains that the bulk of the Freemasonry presence here and elsewhere are exhibiting the same classic signs and behaviour.

Just to clarify - I have no problem with that. My issue is bringing this blind devotion loudly into a neutral discussion and even using it as a tool of superiority. It's like an Evangelical jumping into the middle of a religious discussion between neutral/agnostic parties. "Now you know the TRUTH, my brothers! Rejoice in the Book!" You've picked your side. We're aware of it. And we're aware of others. End of.

[jacob sladder]

Well, I don't feel as if I belong to a cult. I belong to a club, that provides good company, raises a bit of money for charity, offers not a bad meal / good beer. By use of our Rituals it just might make me a bit more of a decent human being. In fact I know it has.

Cult: No. Good night out: Yes.

Freemasonry: Making good men (and women) better. :)

[manchurian_candidate]

ES, Adramelech and others,

I expect all the Masons on this forum are aware of the 'secret society within a secret society' theory and were before they started posting, it's been around for ages and there as of now been no evidence for this, just conjecture and mudslinging. Just as you say it would be difficult for a Mason to subjectively view the organisation to which they belong, I put it to you that you are also unable to subjectively look at the conspiracy theories you espouse and the also the founders of those theories: You are blinded to the sheer ridiculousness of some of the subjects on this site by your zeal.
My opinion.

Can I point out that a lot of the people on here disagree with some of Icke's views, not all but some do and if you have intensively scrutinised this site then you will have seen some of the heated discussions which have arisen when people have disagreed with one another. Can you say that within Freemasonry there are members that disagree with each other as to the nature/intentions and indeed plans of the higher degrees or are they all under the impression that it is all good?

Also in reference to your comment regarding the sheer ridiculousness of some of the subjects on this site Why do you say some of the theories are ridiculous? Did the person who suggested the world was not flat but instead round encounter the same ridicule. Nothing is impossible...

[chrism]

just a reminder to anyone reading this, the majority of freemasons posting here have arrived with the intention to disrupt,confuse and deny any truth seeker searching for 'answers'. Have faith in yourself and your truth will give you the freedom your spirit desires. You are the only teacher you have ever needed.

Ummm - no we haven't. We came because of an intended disruption of a masonic site by some members of this one, and we have not seen much of these original aggressors since arriving here.

We are here to answer questions. We do not expect people here to convert to freemasonry or even to agree with anything we say, but when you guys ask us a question we will do our individual best to answer honestly.

A lot of the threads here are patently anti-masonic and loaded with poisonous statements. We ask for proof of this only to get told that we are covering everything up, which frankly is a schoolyard argument, not something I would expect of mature discussion.

Any truth seeker needs to hear both sides. Otherwise they are learning only part of the story, and one side of any story does not bring the seeker any closer to truth.

We have opinions that support freemasonry because we are in the fraternity. Simply stating that all our statements are lies to confuse non-masons is just a pathetic attempt to undermine frank and honest discussion.

Have faith in yourself? - yes. Truth will give you freedom? Yes. You are the only teacher you have ever needed? Absolute bollocks - rhetoric designed to coerce and condemn the spiritually vacuous. Think about that statement - if that is the case then you can ONLY rely on FIRST HAND information - stuff you have seen with your own eyes or heard with your own ears - making this forum, all sources quoted and anything other than your own daily life completely redundant. In fact posting such a thing is tantamount to saying 'Ignore this Notice'. Pointless and self-condemning.

Chrism

[manchurian_candidate]

I reckon its a good thing you guys are here in a way because (well I mean look at the posts your threads have got!) people can ask you questions. Whether they believe you or not at least they are speaking to real-life masons. :p

[danielson23uk]

I reckon its a good thing you guys are here in a way because (well I mean look at the posts your threads have got!) people can ask you questions. Whether they believe you or not at least they are speaking to real-life masons. :p

Indeed MC. What a shame though to spend months (if not years) alleging this that and the other and when they finally get real experienced and in some cases senior masons here they won't listen. They're totally convinced we're here under 'orders' to spread lies to hide the truth.
I think you know from my posts by now that I will NEVER be made to lie for anyone EVER. I come here MC because it's the truth and as part of making my daily advancement in being a better person I choose to help those who have an interest in morality and integrity. The irony is that those who are so incensed by corruption and want answers won't listen to anyone other than each other.
We can only try can't we.

[manchurian_candidate]

Indeed MC. What a shame though to spend months (if not years) alleging this that and the other and when they finally get real experienced and in some cases senior masons here they won't listen. They're totally convinced we're here under 'orders' to spread lies to hide the truth.
I think you know from my posts by now that I will NEVER be made to lie for anyone EVER. I come here MC because it's the truth and as part of making my daily advancement in being a better person I choose to help those who have an interest in morality and integrity. The irony is that those who are so incensed by corruption and want answers won't listen to anyone other than each other.
We can only try can't we.

I see what you are saying and you may be telling the truth as you know it. I think people would just like you guys to accept that could be a whole other world of dark things going on higher up in your society as the suggestion could be that why is it secret from you if you are all there for the same purpose? I am not saying for one second that you havent been truthful, but how far does your knowledge go? Right to the top?
I respect you very much for continuing to come back here answering questions despite the nature of some of the discussions. Mason or not that shows strength of character in my opinion... or conditioning (lol! :D)

[danielson23uk]

I see what you are saying and you may be telling the truth as you know it. I think people would just like you guys to accept that could be a whole other world of dark things going on higher up in your society as the suggestion could be that why is it secret from you if you are all there for the same purpose? I am not saying for one second that you havent been truthful, but how far does your knowledge go? Right to the top?
I respect you very much for continuing to come back here answering questions despite the nature of some of the discussions. Mason or not that shows strength of character in my opinion... or conditioning (lol! :D)

We can only change things by our own endeavours MC. I understand that there is a chance that it's all corrupt. As someone said on here, if there was no chance, there would be no room for theory of conspiracy. What I would say is that I've heard all the theories and they just don't tally with facts and my experiences. I want to share that. Because I come on here as a mason, my opinion is compromised. But really, it isn't. I (like Mike Martin) am very interested in the theories. They encourage me to validate or dismiss them so you see I am very objective to conspiracy theories. Unfortunatley for the theorists, the ratio of Validation: Dismission is immensely poor.

In the meantime, I'm getting private messages from Lightgiver bating me because I'm obviously no where near as well informed as he/she. Bullying behind the scenes? Sounds like something those nasty masons would do.

[mike martin]

I see what you are saying and you may be telling the truth as you know it. I think people would just like you guys to accept that could be a whole other world of dark things going on higher up in your society as the suggestion could be that why is it secret from you if you are all there for the same purpose? I am not saying for one second that you havent been truthful, but how far does your knowledge go? Right to the top?

I can see what you're saying but (there's always a but) you have been told (by non-Masons) that Freemasonry is so secretive that those who haven't moved into the Appendant Bodies don't know what's going on in them.

Herein lies the rub and the main reason why we Freemasons can't accept that as a possibility. Freemason to Freemason communication is far far less secretive than you have been led (so far) to believe, we all talk to each other about the other Orders we are in and tell each other lots about it. It is not compartmentalised in the way that you imagine. Add that to the fact that just like a non-Mason we can buy the Rituals of these degrees and you should begin to see the difficulty.

There is actually no way that a non-Mason could actually know more than a Mason about Freemasonry, unless that Mason is what we call a "fellowship" Mason, in other words, someone who's only interest is the socialising aspect of it. That isn't to say that he is prevented from knowing, he chooses not to look any further, this is quite acceptable, as has been said many masons get many dfferent things out of it.

For me I have always been interested in both the history and the esoteric elements so I do look further, however, I am an advocate for stripping out the claimed mystical influences of the early 20th Century authors who tried to claim things that are quite ridiculous for Freemasonry.

I respect you very much for continuing to come back here answering questions despite the nature of some of the discussions. Mason or not that shows strength of character in my opinion... or conditioning (lol! :D)
Yeah very droll:D

[armoured_amazon]

...the act of hiding knowledge that is long over due to the world is evil in my opinion.

I agree!

[danielson23uk]

I agree!

So do I. Who's hiding that then?

[mike martin]

Are you being facetious or is this actually meant to be a serious statement? You sound exactly like a Scientologist I've debated and several of those wonderful door to door Witnesses. All sorts of devotees, really. "Now you know the real truth from a believer, all other teachings are evil lies and spurious propaganda!"

For heaven's sake, I had a Scientologist claim to me that Operation Snow White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White) was a set-up by the government to attack the Church. And you know what? He probably truly believed it - he was low-ranking, only OT3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_Thetan#OT_III:_The_Wall_of_Fire)

You belong to a cult. You are an adherent to a similar system of heirarchal knowledge/understanding of the cult teaching. Your information primarily comes from sources inside the cult, cult doctrine or other higher-ranking cult members. Only the Order "gets it" and all others are liars and frauds, especially those attempting to expose the Church. Go ahead and rigorously debate the use of the word "cult" if you want - the fact remains that the bulk of the Freemasonry presence here and elsewhere are exhibiting the same classic signs and behaviour.

Just to clarify - I have no problem with that. My issue is bringing this blind devotion loudly into a neutral discussion and even using it as a tool of superiority. It's like an Evangelical jumping into the middle of a religious discussion between neutral/agnostic parties. "Now you know the TRUTH, my brothers! Rejoice in the Book!" You've picked your side. We're aware of it. And we're aware of others. End of.
I know nothing about Scientologists, I don't even know if we have them here, the only people who come to my door are Jehovah's Witnesses, I tell them I'm a Freemason and they run off screaming (there's a benefit):D

However, I know that I knew lots about freemasonry before I joined and since then I've just learnt more. There has been no kind of mind-control employed.

mike

[perry_mason]

Can I point out that a lot of the people on here disagree with some of Icke's views, not all but some do and if you have intensively scrutinised this site then you will have seen some of the heated discussions which have arisen when people have disagreed with one another. Can you say that within Freemasonry there are members that disagree with each other as to the nature/intentions and indeed plans of the higher degrees or are they all under the impression that it is all good?

Also in reference to your comment regarding the sheer ridiculousness of some of the subjects on this site Why do you say some of the theories are ridiculous? Did the person who suggested the world was not flat but instead round encounter the same ridicule. Nothing is impossible...

I didn't mention Icke in that post, but I'm on the Icke forum so I see your point. I can see that many people on here have different ideas and don't all agree with Icke or each other but the general tone is very anti-Masonic. I expect many Masons have different ideas about how Masonry should be run and what meeting should entail but if anyone seriously thought that the higher degrees leading up to the 33' were involved in some of the activities reported on here and on other sites that they would have anything to do with it.

I am willing to say that my opinion will be coloured by my beliefs and interests, many on here are not and do not seem to realise that they cannot just proclaim their beliefs as pure truth without reflecting on the fact that there is no proof and very little plausibility. Some posters on here cannot even accept the idea that they may be wrong and that these are theories and not commonly held facts.

[barney_rubble]

Can I point out that a lot of the people on here disagree with some of Icke's views, not all but some do and if you have intensively scrutinised this site then you will have seen some of the heated discussions which have arisen when people have disagreed with one another. Can you say that within Freemasonry there are members that disagree with each other as to the nature/intentions and indeed plans of the higher degrees or are they all under the impression that it is all good?

Also in reference to your comment regarding the sheer ridiculousness of some of the subjects on this site Why do you say some of the theories are ridiculous? Did the person who suggested the world was not flat but instead round encounter the same ridicule. Nothing is impossible...

MC you are well entitled to your opinon, and your are correct it is possible .. just very highly unlikely IMO.

You (and/or others) talk about (and I am paraphrasing now) the "upper levels" of freemasonry planning or controlling world events. I just have to laugh at this. I was at a meeting just this week where we were discussing long term plans for our District and through that our Grand Lodge.

The discussion was a total failure and went nowhere. Our district contains 14 lodges and those 14 lodges can not agree on a 3 year (let alone 10 year) plan for the district. There are 43 such districts under our Grand Lodge.
It will be near imposible to get the 43 Districts to agree on a 3 or 10 year plan for our Grand Lodge. As you have been told before, each Grand lodge is independant so good luck getting them to agree on a plan. The best wee could do was come up with a 3 year plan for the lodge.

I can not speak for other Grand Lodge structures (although I assume they are similar) my GL is goverened with a bottom up approach. Ideas proposals are generated at the bottom and float there way up (if they are voted up).
Also leadership comes from the ranks. Leaders are voted in for a limited term. If they were trying to pull any funny stuff they would be voted out next round.

Oh and before you ask I am one degree from the highest degree in Masonry. I have been asked if I am ready to progress to the highest degree. I said, " I know the words to say but I wish to stay where I am for now and research some more." Maybe later in the year I will make the finial step.

[barney_rubble]

FYI - for mason and non-masons alike, although I believe it will be recieved differently by each group.

This is the Canadian Freemasonry Degree Structure.
Notice how by connecting certain points in the Canadian flag we find the Square & Compass.
This is proof that Canada is a Nation of Freemasons.
http://www.freewebs.com/freemasons/canadianfreemasonry.jpg

[thetonic]

I know nothing about Scientologists, I don't even know if we have them here, the only people who come to my door are Jehovah's Witnesses, I tell them I'm a Freemason and they run off screaming (there's a benefit):D



How ironic considering the founders of JW were steeped neck deep in masonic knight templars

[lightgiver]

Just to clarify things stated in this thread.

1. Masons have never heard of (in their lodge) or wish to achieve a NWO/Global Gov't :rolleyes:
2. Masons do not wish to to reduce world population :rolleyes:
3. George Bush has ZERO ties to Freemasonry at all :rolleyes:

I only wonder why then, George W. gave a speech once that said "Our Forefathers envisioned something they referred to as The New Order of the Ages...AND IT IS MEANT TO BE FULLFILLED!!" What is this "New order of the ages" that has yet to be accomplished that was envisioned?? also, why does he care what they envisioned if he has no ties to them?

personally, I actually agree with alot of the NWO philosphies. However, what bothers me are events that I find highly suspicious that seem to be done or happen by "coincidence" that move us closer to these NWO objectives. I believe these goals should be accomplished through education and peace and only war if necessary. Not through lies and deception.


I would like to pose these question to the masons.


Why is it important for the information of your brotherhood to be hidden?
basically why is there freemasonry at all and why is your knowledge not shared with the rest of the world?

What is the goal of freemasonry? Please be as specific as possible and state how the organization tries to achieve these objectives.

george bush is a member of SKULL&BONES which as links to freemasonry?:eek:

[barney_rubble]

george bush is a member of SKULL&BONES which has links to freemasonry?:eek:

Does not!
Yes it does!
Doesn't!
Does to!
Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does!

Doesn't times infinity! There I win! HA!

Do you see how ridiculous this is?

[lightgiver]

FYI - for mason and non-masons alike, although I believe it will be recieved differently by each group.

This is the Canadian Freemasonry Degree Structure.
Notice how by connecting certain points in the Canadian flag we find the Square & Compass.
This is proof that Canada is a Nation of Freemasons.
http://www.freewebs.com/freemasons/canadianfreemasonry.jpg
could you please print british and american examples:)

[intruder]

aside from the Eastern Star, which others amongst these groups are for women?

I refer to the chart above.

[lightgiver]

We can only change things by our own endeavours MC. I understand that there is a chance that it's all corrupt. As someone said on here, if there was no chance, there would be no room for theory of conspiracy. What I would say is that I've heard all the theories and they just don't tally with facts and my experiences. I want to share that. Because I come on here as a mason, my opinion is compromised. But really, it isn't. I (like Mike Martin) am very interested in the theories. They encourage me to validate or dismiss them so you see I am very objective to conspiracy theories. Unfortunatley for the theorists, the ratio of Validation: Dismission is immensely poor.

In the meantime, I'm getting private messages from Lightgiver bating me because I'm obviously no where near as well informed as he/she. Bullying behind the scenes? Sounds like something those nasty masons would do.
i am not bullying,i just want answers to what is going on?if the freemasons have nothing to hide why all the secrecy?why911 cover up?their is concrete proof from a lot of educated people that it is all wrong,the pieces don't fit together.hey. i personally have nothing against any free masons?youre free to do what you want to do.everybody suffers the consequence of their actions eventually.so if your good in your heart thats fine.i aint no bully and if i have offended you in anyway i humbly apologize,but i have facts.and i did not tell you to F*** Off you PR***,did i?:rolleyes:

[lightgiver]

Does not!
Yes it does!
Doesn't!
Does to!
Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does! Doesn't! Does!

Doesn't times infinity! There I win! HA!

Do you see how ridiculous this is?

i know what you mean.but its a fact.do your research?:)

[barney_rubble]

aside from the Eastern Star, which others amongst these groups are for women?

I refer to the chart above.

To be honest I am not sure. I think think the Eastern Star in the only one.

I can tell you (for sure) the following do not accept women:
The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Canada -stream
The York Rite Bodies -stream
The Ancient Arabic Order of Nobles of the Mystic Shrine

For the rest I am unsure.

[mike martin]

george bush is a member of SKULL&BONES which as links to freemasonry?:eek:

Already covered.

Could you please read some of the threads before you start regurgitating the same old stuff as things ave moved away from the childish stuff like Bush is a Mason etc.

Mike

[intruder]

http://www.helpingthekids.ca/files/image/Canadian%20Flag.jpg


10/22/64 was the day when the Canadian flag was adopted by the Canadian Parliament and proclaimed into law by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II on February 15 1965. As discussed in another thread, our flag is "botanically incorrect" as three leaves on a single stem is impossible, because maple leaves always grow 2 by 2. According to documents edited by the Government of Canada , the flag is red and white because King George V designated it so in 1921.

[lightgiver]

Already covered.

Could you please read some of the threads before you start regurgitating the same old stuff as things ave moved away from the childish stuff like Bush is a Mason etc.

Mike

just want the truth?we wont forget anything when the planet is getting raped in the name of progress and the people are being continually lied to thats what the powers to be want.move on, forget about it,out of sight out of mind.feed everybody dribble, why millions suffer because of a few elitists have their way and do what the hell they want.are you really that blind or do you just choose to be?THE PEOPLE WANT THE TRUTH.thats all.do you really think all this wholesale slaughter of people over history and today is normal?turn on the dribbletv the drug of the nation.try switching off for a while does you a world of good.:)anyway ive said what i have wanted thats it .we all beleive what we want in the end,bit of a sore subject this freemason stuff.

[intruder]

http://www.helpingthekids.ca/files/image/Canadian%20Flag.jpg


10/22/64 was the day when the Canadian flag was adopted by the Canadian Parliament and proclaimed into law by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II on February 15 1965. As discussed in another thread, our flag is "botanically incorrect" as three leaves on a single stem is impossible, because maple leaves always grow 2 by 2. According to documents edited by the Government of Canada , the flag is red and white because King George V designated it so in 1921.

and the square and compass placed on the flag from barney rubble's posted chart doesn't really do it justice.

[intruder]

being in "harmony" with nature and all....

[barney_rubble]

http://www.helpingthekids.ca/files/image/Canadian%20Flag.jpg


10/22/64 was the day when the Canadian flag was adopted by the Canadian Parliament and proclaimed into law by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II on February 15 1965. As discussed in another thread, our flag is "botanically incorrect" as three leaves on a single stem is impossible, because maple leaves always grow 2 by 2. According to documents edited by the Government of Canada , the flag is red and white because King George V designated it so in 1921.


Ya I was going to respond to that but I let it go.

The maple leaf on the Canadian Flag is a stylalized depiction. Some say it most closely resembles the eaf of a Sugar Maple (Acer saccharum). This makes sense Canada is know for its Sugar Maples and the Maple syrup therefrom.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/06-109f2.jpg

Also the leaf on the flag is one leaf (not three) and it is a tri-lobed leaf.
Look it up on any botanical web site. In botanical terms it has palmate leaves.


By the way here is an extreme the Manitoba Maple (Acer negundo):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Acer_negundo.jpg/180px-Acer_negundo.jpg

It has pinnate leaves (unlike most maples which havepalmate leaves) that have three to seven leaflets (usually three).

So yes the Canadian flag is not botanically correct, but not becuse of the tri-lobed nature of the leaf. It is because it is a stylized drawing of a leaf.

[danielson23uk]

i am not bullying,i just want answers to what is going on?if the freemasons have nothing to hide why all the secrecy?
Lightgiver, for the 15,000th time WHAT SECRECY? There is no secrecy! Read and inwardly digest for FFS!!! Our only specific secrets are the way in which we identify each other. END. FINI. FULL STOP! What have we hidden from you? Nothing, because you've asked nothing! You've just made inaccurate statements like the one above.

why911 cover up?their is concrete proof from a lot of educated people that it is all wrong,the pieces don't fit together.hey. i personally have nothing against any free masons?youre free to do what you want to do.everybody suffers the consequence of their actions eventually.so if your good in your heart thats fine.
If it's absolute concrete proof it wouldn't be a theory now would it. We've addressed 9/11 ages ago. It wasn't us it was the people that owned up to it, surprisingly!!

i aint no bully and if i have offended you in anyway i humbly apologize,but i have facts.and i did not tell you to F*** Off you PR***,did i?:rolleyes:
Apology accepted. I don't tolerate bullies and I don't tolerate sly private messages bating me because that is the tactic of a bully. I guess you found out the hard way. But let's be under no illusion here. All of your above points have either been addressed multiple times on the forum or are in the public domain so PM'ing me asking if I'd done any research yet is a tad amateur don't you think? If you want verbally go 'toe to toe' I can accomodate as I suspect you found out, but it doesn't lead anyone to the truth so just be nice and I'll reciprocate.

[chrism]

So yes the Canadian flag is not botanically correct, but not becuse of the tri-lobed nature of the leaf. It is because it is a stylized drawing of a leaf.

Thank god someone explained it to me... I thought for a moment I was completely imagining all of the maple leaves I saw in Canada during my brief visit there - I always thought the image on the flag was quite a good representation of the maple leaf (the one the syrup comes from).

Stylised or not, is the symbol masonic? Even if it were designed by a mason, would that alone make it masonic? I have my own opinions but want to check others too...

Chrism

[intruder]

really though, i was just making small talk.

[intruder]

not "flaming" a single soul, as e-motive e-bursts are often full of syrup, but they lack spiritual strong-meat in these troubled times.

[intruder]

being much more concerned with the Toronto Transit Commission and their desire to acquire and issue Tasers to their operators because of escalating crime.

[chrism]

being much more concerned with the Toronto Transit Commission and their desire to acquire and issue Tasers to their operators because of escalating crime.

OOOooh - just seen a vid on break.com - those things look painful! :o

One guy tazered his own, erm, Richard - how thick do you have to be???

(Ahem - One for you SFUK:D)

Chrism

[intruder]

have any folks here read "Foucault's Pendulum" ?

One of the most paranoid and complex novels written since Gravity’s Rainbow, Foucault’s Pendulum is a riveting account of one man’s voyage into the unknown; but whether he’s on a journey to enlightenment or a bad trip into a nightmare world of paranoia is a haunting uncertainty.
A conspiracy story on a grand scale, Foucault’s Pendulum was originally published in 1988 as Pendolo di Foucault, and draws from the same well often visited by Jorge Luis Borges, H.P. Lovecraft, Thomas Pynchon, Milorad Pavic, and Robert Anton Wilson. (Just as Eco’s novel would set the stage for the current generation of pop-historical thrillers such The Da Vinci Code.) Foucault’s Pendulum is set in a universe where fact mingles imperceptibly with fiction, where secret societies chart the true course of human evolution, and the occult exerts its subversive influence on reality in ways barely glimpsed by the average individual. Here the Templars and the Illuminati trade secrets in the darkened house of ignorance, and the lightbearers are only as trusty as their Ur-father, Lucifer.
Or it could all be an illusion.
A sprawling tale that connects the hermetic traditions of countless cultures across thousands of years, the actual plot begins simply in present-day Milan. Here, an Italian Colonel expresses his fears about a Templar conspiracy to a pair of editors named Belbo and Diotallevi and their friend Casaubon, a doctoral student and an expert on Templar history. (Belbo, the senior editor and proud owner of a new computer, is a loosely autobiographical character; he has an apartment in Milan and a summer house in northern Italy, smokes copious amounts of cigarettes, and enjoys whiskey. Although his adult life is different from his creator’s, many of Belbo’s childhood memories from Piedmont are drawn from Eco’s actual life.) Entertained by the sheer grandiosity of the Colonel’s cliché-ridden story, the trio’s amusement turns to consternation when the Colonel is soon reported missing. Perhaps he was not quite the crackpot he seemed?
The mystery of the Colonel’s disappearance tunes the trio more closely to occult wavelengths, and as they pursue their lives across the next several years, they notice more and more connections between various religious doctines, hermetic systems, and pseudo-historical conspiracy theories. From the Templars to the Rosicrucians, from lost underground cities to Brazilian Candomblé, everything seems to develop sinister interconnections. Eventually they are reunited in Milan, and as fate would have it, they are placed on a project to publish a series of books on esoteric lore. Their work plunges them even deeper into the telluric world of concealed truths, and soon they decide to synthesize everything they’ve learned into an apocryphal tale of their own, formulating one vast, all-encompassing Plan reflecting the secret history of the world. They are helped by a mysterious individual who claims to be immortal, as well as Belbo’s new computer, Abulafia. But as the Plan grows, the men find that it becomes harder and harder to ignore its many ramifications. Within time, the Plan assumes a life of its own, and as everything starts to fall apart at the seams, the men begin to question their own sanity – and perhaps the nature of reality itself.
It’s this inevitable descent into uncertainty and madness that Eco captures so masterfully, and Foucault’s Pendulum is filled with literary devices that mirror its arcane world. Using a framework loosely based on the Qabalah, Eco employs a wide range of elements that juxtapose the modern and the ancient, the supernatural and the scientific. Computer entries show the powers of modern technology while simultaneously crunching numbers for antique formulae. Flashbacks set the idyllic scenes of childhood against the painfully adult quest for identity. Sharp postmodern ironies stab through dense tapestries of gothic horror. The reader is taken on a disorienting ride through centuries of thought, ideas flashing by on every side, but somehow Eco manages to keep the focus on his characters. Indeed, after a while one feels all too close to the poor soul narrating this awful tale, this Casaubon whose final destiny is suggested at the very beginning of the book.
As in his previous novel, The Name of the Rose, Eco makes sure that his dazzling surface rests upon a firm foundation, and he seeks to actively engage the reader in a deeper play of ideas. From very early in the book, the reader is served with Pendulum’s underlying subject matter: the importance of symbols, the meaning of secrets, and the reality of universal truths. Using the wand of his esoteric narrative, Eco summons up several centuries’ worth of hermetic systems, alphabets, symbologies, and ciphers; and through the eyes of Casaubon and his associates they are examined, cross-referenced, deconstructed, refuted, discarded, resurrected and ultimately believed, rejected, or tabled for further discussion. Throughout this arduous process a few nagging questions arise, and it is here that the reader is truly challenged, forced to confront the central issues of the sprawling tale. Eco presents us with the notion that our symbols and alphabets are merely constructs, mirrors that reflect back only what meaning we desire to see. But if these devices are only containers for meaning, what then is meaning itself? Is meaning universal, relative, or completely artificial? How is meaning related to belief? Does our belief engineer our reality, or is it the exact opposite? Is belief a prison, or is it a form of ultimate freedom? What power have we placed in belief, in secrets, in mysteries? And what if the essence of something is concealed – does revelation await the diligent, or merely layers and layers of signifiers with no objective reality? Does the mystery of belief lie in the concealment of these “truths” to all but the devout? And if there is some kind of universal truth, how can it be realized in a universe guided by ostensibly random and meaningless principles? And given all this, what then is the difference between belief and madness, or between doubt and madness?
In one particularly brilliant chapter, Casaubon’s girlfriend uses common sense and a trust in simplicity to refute nearly the entire history of the occult, overturning countless hermetic secrets with a simple wave of her hand, reducing a network of conspiracies to the importance of a laundry list. In many ways, this chapter acts as an almost Borgesian refutation of the entire novel, and undermines any confidence we may have in an ultimate resolution. Like Thomas Pynchon’s The Crying of Lot 49 or Darren Aronofsky’s film Pi, we are left suspended between two mutually exclusive systems of thought. As the novel progresses, these contradictions and attendant paranoias press deeper into the mind of the narrator, and as the plot accelerates towards the singularity established in the beginning of the book, the borderline between inspiration and insanity grows increasingly more tenuous – for both Casaubon and the reader. But just as the ending is reached, suddenly—

[intruder]

OOOooh - just seen a vid on break.com - those things look painful! :o

One guy tazered his own, erm, Richard - how thick do you have to be???

(Ahem - One for you SFUK:D)

Chrism

DAMN right they're "painful". they can kill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPCgwCS3viQ

and this isn't the first death in Canada. whatever happened to a good old fashioned tackle?

[intruder]

the poor gentleman spoke no English, I believe that he had been detained for 12 hrs plus. In a country that promotes multiculturalism, yet unable at an airport to find someone at least semi-competent in Polish was a tragedy. I can't blame a secret society for over zealous cops with itchy trigger fingers.

[barney_rubble]

being much more concerned with the Toronto Transit Commission and their desire to acquire and issue Tasers to their operators because of escalating crime.

Wow I ride the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) Subway (tube) everyday,
and this the first I have heard of "issue Tasers to their operators because of escalating crime".

I find the London Underground a scarier place then the TTC based on the few Times I have visited London.

The most I have to worry about on the TTC is the drivers going on strike (which I believe is imminent next Monday AM).


All that said I do not live in Toronto I only work there so I am only on the TTC during the daylight hours. When I was in London I was riding the public transit system all hours of the clock.

[chrism]

whatever happened to a good old fashioned tackle?

OOooerrr!

On a serious note, I didn't know they could do that much damage - did he have a pacemaker or something?

Chrism

[intruder]

Wow I ride the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) Subway (tube) everyday,
and this the first I have heard of "issue Tasers to their operators because of escalating crime".

I find the London Underground a scarier place then the TTC based on the few Times I have visited London.

The most I have to worry about on the TTC is the drivers going on strike (which I believe is imminent next Monday AM).


All that said I do not live in Toronto I only work there so I am only on the TTC during the daylight hours. When I was in London I was riding the public transit system all hours of the clock.

lest I be accused of starting conspiracy theories!!

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/415439

[intruder]

OOooerrr!

On a serious note, I didn't know they could do that much damage - did he have a pacemaker or something?

Chrism

no pacemaker to my knowledge. he was tired, anxious, and obviously frustrated.

[barney_rubble]

lest I be accused of starting conspiracy theories!!

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/415439

I never doubted you - it was just said that it was the first I heard of it.
Now that I read the newspaper article the story seems vaguely familiar at least the Vancover part.

My post still stands. I think 'the tube' in London is scarier then the 'subway' in Toronto.

Just my opinion.

[chrism]

no pacemaker to my knowledge. he was tired, anxious, and obviously frustrated.

If not before he was tazered, then certainly afterwards.

Nasty thing to happen - but brutality comes in a number of forms...


Chris

[intruder]

If not before he was tazered, then certainly afterwards.

Nasty thing to happen - but brutality comes in a number of forms...


Chris

Are you a cop by chance? they tazered him numerous times. who displayed the "brutality" here, the frustrated Polish immigrant? the man was hoping to reunite with his mother who had left the airport in frustration due to the inordinate time she spent waiting for her son.

Have a taser free day!!!!

[intruder]

I never doubted you - it was just said that it was the first I heard of it.
Now that I read the newspaper article the story seems vaguely familiar at least the Vancover part.

My post still stands. I think 'the tube' in London is scarier then the 'subway' in Toronto.

Just my opinion.

okay!!

[chrism]

Are you a cop by chance? they tazered him numerous times. who displayed the "brutality" here, the frustrated Polish immigrant? the man was hoping to reunite with his mother who had left the airport in frustration due to the inordinate time she spent waiting for her son.

Have a taser free day!!!!

Sorry intruder - I should have worded my post more accurately. I meant Police Brutality. R King was not tazered to death, cops shoot and kill daily and I do think that in many (not all) cases where this could be avoided the police brutality should be punnished most severely.

I had not meant to imply that the poor man who died deserved it or was being brutal himself.

Chrism

[mike martin]

Gotta say, if only to get some balance.

I would much rather be tazered than shot.

Mike

[intruder]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071025.wtaser1026/BNStory/National/home

I'd like to see some cops with balls, and not wannabe laser guns!

well, I guess that statement could create some confusion!! but really, I remember good cops as a lad with a gun and a billy club. of course Canada was a different country then, but 3 cops can't "talk down" or tackle a non imposing man?

[intruder]

reflecting on the past, I recall a joke from my boyhood and why I considered England such a civil and decent place. The story went that British "bobbies" didn't even carry a gun, just a billy club and a whistle. when having to deal with a criminal on the run the cop would yell...."STOP....OR I'LL TOOT!!!":D

[lightgiver]

Lightgiver, for the 15,000th time WHAT SECRECY? There is no secrecy! Read and inwardly digest for FFS!!! Our only specific secrets are the way in which we identify each other. END. FINI. FULL STOP! What have we hidden from you? Nothing, because you've asked nothing! You've just made inaccurate statements like the one above.


If it's absolute concrete proof it wouldn't be a theory now would it. We've addressed 9/11 ages ago. It wasn't us it was the people that owned up to it, surprisingly!!


Apology accepted. I don't tolerate bullies and I don't tolerate sly private messages bating me because that is the tactic of a bully. I guess you found out the hard way. But let's be under no illusion here. All of your above points have either been addressed multiple times on the forum or are in the public domain so PM'ing me asking if I'd done any research yet is a tad amateur don't you think? If you want verbally go 'toe to toe' I can accomodate as I suspect you found out, but it doesn't lead anyone to the truth so just be nice and I'll reciprocate.

FREEMASONS are OPEN (I DONT THINK SO)maybe at the bottom of the PYRAMID.But not at the TOP:eek:all i can say JAHBULON:eek:and its not me being a mind controlled bully its you,you twist everything to suit yourself.You are well and truly brainwashed,and to all of you barmy free masons i will mention 911 as much as i want.IT WAS STAGED.FACT and your secret society(FREEMASONS)are involved ,you need to read mr ickes books and do some research instead of waffling.WE KNOW THE TRUTH. you dont own the forum.Bet YOU think(brainwashed)you do?I will reply if needs must.