Meat Eaters Vs. Vegans (video)

[pilgrim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emXRuu32JEE

http://causelessmercy.com/

[mauviene]

I actually stopped drinking milk awhile ago, I'll have to try some non homogenized just to see what this is all about.

[gods sun]

ive actually reduced dairy quite alot no milk yogurt cheese just eggs veg and meat, fish etc ive been having more fish than anything else cant afford meat nowhere days, so i usually stick to veg,fish and eggs, herbal teas and that seem to help me build muscle and keep healthy guts etc.

[doozy]

I'm surprised the author of the video did not mention pasteurisation. It is the pasteurisation process that kills the good bacteria that we need in order to digest milk properly and get all the lovely things from it.

Pasteurised milk = bad for you
UNpasteurised milk = good for you! :)

Guess which is banned for sale through shops in the UK?

[chris]

Ridiculous video...Each camp, veg,vegan and meat-eaters claim to have the highest in IQs. The rest is just quoting the Vedas, a cult leader and makes spurious anecdotes to why cows milk is for us (simply because they've been bred out of the wild).

Yet I'm sure it does hold some truth...Ever wonder why farm boys are known for their strength? It may be down to the fresh milk they consume.

All that noted but it's really stupid to call vegans/meat-eaters dumb and dumber while making such a stupid video. I can imagine a lot of his followers will simply watch that and think because they drink milk that they don't need to worry about anything else (which a lot of vegans avoid)...

Still vegans don't get away scottfree as a lot of them are wannabe meat-eaters obsessing over food which tastes like meat. This is where they eat the worst foods of all, the soy-bean gm, and other ingredients which meateaters and most vegies avoid...

It's a really dumbed down argument to say "We are the best, We are vegies" and only does what most cults do, divide people.


Guess which is banned for sale through shops in the UK?

Neither...You can buy unpasterised milk as greentop milk...

Here's a place for a start...
http://www.nortonsdairy.co.uk/real-milk/

[red_ram]

It'd be nice if anyone could eat what they want and not start telling other people what to eat.

[Ratiocinator]

It'd be nice if anyone could eat what they want and not start telling other people what to eat.

And it would be nice if people could source their foods without forcibly enslaving, killing, mistreating, forcibly confining, forcibly medicating, forcibly impregnating, forcibly causing synthetic living and preventing natural ways, forcibly breeding, and adversely affecting others.

If only people had love, compassion, morality, and unsuppressed spirituality, then all life would not be treated as a mere commodity such as limestone, but would be respected as sovereign and not regarded as a source of products and as existing purely for man's selfish exploitation.

Do what thou wilt - but only if it does not cause harm to anyone else.

[red_ram]

And it would be nice if people could source their foods without forcibly enslaving, killing, mistreating, forcibly confining, forcibly medicating, forcibly impregnating, forcibly causing synthetic living and preventing natural ways, forcibly breeding, and adversely affecting others.

If only people had love, compassion, morality, and unsuppressed spirituality, then all life would not be treated as a mere commodity such as limestone, but would be respected as sovereign and not regarded as a source of products and as existing purely for man's selfish exploitation.

Do what thou wilt - but only if it does not cause harm to anyone else.

That includes the killing of plants, which are aspects of life and being as much as animals.

People who tell me not to eat meat quite often have wooden furniture, which is the result of trees being felled.

I stand by what I said.

[Ratiocinator]

That includes the killing of plants, which are aspects of life and being as much as animals.

People who tell me not to eat meat quite often have wooden furniture, which is the result of trees being felled.

I stand by what I said.

You would do well to remember the clear fact that a pound of meat requires the animal to consume at least 12 pounds of grain, or other plant food, to produce.

You would also do well to note that plants are not sentient, unlike cows who very clearly express emotion and have central nervous systems. (plants responding to certain stimuli does not compare)

Furthermore, no plant is killed for the fruitarian diet.

To add: Those defending the morality of animal foods consumption prove their cause to be pathetic and completely without merit when they stoop so low as to brand natural plant eaters as equal killers!

[element]

You would do well to remember the clear fact that a pound of meat requires the animal to consume at least 12 pounds of grain, or other plant food, to produce.

You would also do well to note that plants are not sentient, unlike cows who very clearly express emotion and have central nervous systems. (plants responding to certain stimuli does not compare)

Furthermore, no plant is killed for the fruitarian diet.

To add: Those defending the morality of animal foods consumption prove their cause to be pathetic and completely without merit when they stoop so low as to brand natural plant eaters as equal killers!

Truth.:)

End of discussion.

[red_ram]

You would do well to remember the clear fact that a pound of meat requires the animal to consume at least 12 pounds of grain, or other plant food, to produce.

You would also do well to note that plants are not sentient, unlike cows who very clearly express emotion and have central nervous systems. (plants responding to certain stimuli does not compare)

Furthermore, no plant is killed for the fruitarian diet.

To add: Those defending the morality of animal foods consumption prove their cause to be pathetic and completely without merit when they stoop so low as to brand natural plant eaters as equal killers!

Pardon me, but just because a plant doesn't communicate with us in a way we can understand, doesn't mean it's not sentient. And, whether it's sentient or not means nothing. It's still the taking of life. As is the felling of trees for the making of wood furniture and paper.

I don't defend the morality of animal food consumption (or vegetable food consumption for that matter). I just wish certain people would stop preaching.

End of discussion?

If only.

[element]

Pardon me, but just because a plant doesn't communicate with us in a way we can understand, doesn't mean it's not sentient. And, whether it's sentient or not means nothing. It's still the taking of life. As is the felling of trees for the making of wood furniture and paper.

I don't defend the morality of animal food consumption (or vegetable food consumption for that matter). I just wish certain people would stop preaching.

End of discussion?

If only.

Yes nice and all. But animals still have a higher consciousness then plants. What you're saying, is the same as when you throw a stone against a wall, the stone feels pain.. , don't forget matter is lifeforce too.

Slaughterhouses are violence and killing machines. Taking plants from your lands and fruits from your trees is different. The tree doesn't die when you take it's fruit, and when you take vegetables, seeds will spread over the land. When you want meat, the animal dies, while it's respectless..it gave you milk, wool and compassion. No reason to kill.
It's different with animals.

[pilgrim]

Yes nice and all. But animals still have a higher consciousness then plants. What you're saying, is the same as when you throw a stone against a wall, the stone feels pain.. , don't forget matter is lifeforce too.

Slaughterhouses are violence and killing machines. Taking plants from your lands and fruits from your trees is different. The tree doesn't die when you take it's fruit, and when you take vegetables, seeds will spread over the land. When you want meat, the animal dies, while it's respectless..it gave you milk, wool and compassion. No reason to kill.
It's different with animals.
Great, true post element! :)
Though it's a shame that people need such obvious things explained to them again and again! :rolleyes:

[red_ram]

Yes nice and all. But animals still have a higher consciousness then plants.


It's...still...life.

Incidentally, regarding your comment about throwing a stone against a wall, I found that particularly interesting as I've always wondered whether such apparently inert matter can actually feel.

[pilgrim]

Another common metaphysical question is, "If all living entities are spiritually equal, then why is it acceptable to eat grains, vegetables, etc., and not meat? Aren't vegetarians guilty of killing vegetables? In response, it may be pointed out that vegetarian foods such as fruits, nuts, milk, and grain do not require any killing. But even in those cases where a plant's life is taken, the pain involved is much less than when an animal is slaughtered, because the plant's nervous system is less developed. Clearly there is a vast difference between pulling a carrot out of the ground and killing a lamb. But still, one must undoubtedly suffer karmic reactions even for killing plants.

For this reason, Lord Krishna explains in Bhagavad-gita that not only should man eat only vegetarian foods, but he should also offer these eatables to Him. If we follow this process of sacrifice, the Supreme Lord, Krishna, protects us from any karmic reactions resulting from the killing of plants. Otherwise, according to the law of karma, we are personally responsible. The Gita states, "The devotees of the Lord are released form all sins because they eat food that is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin."

Srila Prabhupada elaborates on this principle of spiritual vegetarianism. "Human beings are provided with food grains, vegetables, fruits, and milk by the grace of the Lord, but it is the duty of human beings to acknowledge the mercy of the Lord. As a matter of gratitude, they should feel obliged to the Lord for their supply of foodstuff, and they must first offer Him food in sacrifice and then partake of the remnants." By eating such sanctified food - prasadam - one is protected from karmic reactions and advances spiritually.

From 'The Higher Taste' online book
http://www.harekrishna.com/col/books/VEG/ht/

[bigus_dickus]

so there are only 2 categories: vegetarians and "meat eaters".

there's no other type of human being, one has to be either a vegetarian (gooooood, spiritual, holy, godly, loving, moral and stuff) or a "meat eater" (baaaaaaad, ruthless, vicious, emotionless, heartless, evil).

[element]

so there are only 2 categories: vegetarians and "meat eaters".

there's no other type of human being, one has to be either a vegetarian (gooooood, spiritual, holy, godly, loving, moral and stuff) or a "meat eater" (baaaaaaad, ruthless, vicious, emotionless, heartless, evil).

No. It's not like that at all.:)
It's either vegetarian, vegan or omnivore (like bears)

What I can say myself, is that vegetarianism indeed helps a lot for spirituality. But I think it's up to each individual, but if you believe or know (through experience) there is karma and there is more out there, then it is a wise choice. You don't want to take the life of a innocent, because your body does not need it. ;)

You take vegetarian and meat eater as complete opposites in their most purest form.

[bigus_dickus]

What I can say myself, is that vegetarianism indeed helps a lot for spirituality. But I think it's up to each individual, but if you believe or know (through experience) there is karma and there is more out there, then it is a wise choice. You don't want to take the life of a innocent, because your body does not need it. ;)

so, you mean that you don't take innocent life, you eat only dead things? i thought that vegetables were alive. in fact, they are just as alive as we are. but, are these guys guilty?

so, you mean that spirituality is to decide which form of life is innocent and which one is guilty to be punished or something?

[element]

so, you mean that you don't take innocent life, you eat only dead things? i thought that vegetables were alive. in fact, they are just as alive as we are. but, are these guys guilty?

''Are we killing plants?

Often the objection is raised that we are killing plants to eat them. But this is not accurate, either. When we harvest vegetables, we do so at the end of their growth cycle; we don’t “cut them down in the prime of life.” Animals, however, are slaughtered long before their natural lifespan is finished. We must also distinguish between the fruit and the plant. When we pick, say a tomato, we do not kill the plant, but it continues to grow–no life is taken. As for root vegetables such as carrots or potatoes, the “root” that we harvest is the final stage in the plant’s growth; if it were not harvested, the plant would merely rot in the earth. Furthermore, in plants the sensory mind is only potential, it is “asleep.” They do not feel pain. Although they do have a rudimentary nervous system that responds to injury, the conscious mind that would receive the message of pain in animal organisms is not functional.''

Animals know friendship, love, passion, leadership. They give you milk, compassion, friendship. Animals also have a higher consciousness then plants.

so, you mean that spirituality is to decide which form of life is innocent and which one is guilty to be punished or something?

Spirituality is everything that has got to do with searching within, who you are in essence.

[thewaycreates]

Pardon me, but just because a plant doesn't communicate with us in a way we can understand, doesn't mean it's not sentient. And, whether it's sentient or not means nothing. It's still the taking of life. As is the felling of trees for the making of wood furniture and paper.



the only point worth the time it took to read it in this thread.
thank you Ram.

everything has a soul, including plants, rocks and air.
tranference of energy from somewhere to somewhere else, as long as the energy/life/soul is appreciated and given thanks, then Karma is neutral. there is death everywhere, ask Shiva, Life needs death. whether you can identify with its intelligence level(animals) or not, is not a matter.
when you have an emotional attatchment to something, many times because its like you to some degree, you will have a harder time accepting its equality with things not as related to you.
a parallel could be seen within the human species.
the arguement that animals have higher intelligence/conciousness than plants therefore giving them immunity from death for consumption(transference of energy) is like saying 'Bob' working the register at the Gas Stations life is more valueable than Gene the retarded kid that stands in front of the Gas Station waiting for his bus. or that Gene's life is more important than , say, your mom thats in a coma and has no intellegence. youll find that the one that you feel more of a relation too is more important to you. but what if Gene was your Brother, now his life is more impportant to you than Bob's. i would garantee that many people would save the life of their dog over another humans life that they dont know. as you can see, "who's" life it is, is arbitrary, the life is valued by the perciever.
i do not endorse factory farms or any form of animal enslavement, but i do endorse the killing of anything if it is necessary, and given thanks for.

[bigus_dickus]

''Are we killing plants?

i have my opinion too :)

Often the objection is raised that we are killing plants to eat them. But this is not accurate, either. When we harvest vegetables, we do so at the end of their growth cycle; we don’t “cut them down in the prime of life.”

not always, it depends on the plant. humans believe that the plants are made "for them", so they ripe, and that's when we can cut and eat the fruit. that's only an idea though, people believe it, so it's true.

Animals, however, are slaughtered long before their natural lifespan is finished.

animals are "slaughtered", not cut. it reminds us of people getting slaughtered and the agony that the plants supposedly don't feel when we "cut" them. so, plants are never "slaughtered", only "harvested", because that's what they are there for. that's no logic, it's ideology.

We must also distinguish between the fruit and the plant. When we pick, say a tomato, we do not kill the plant, but it continues to grow–no life is taken.

then, why don't you distinguish between the animal and the product of the animal, such as the milk? when we pick, say some milk, we do not kill the animal, but it continues to grow-no life is taken.

As for root vegetables such as carrots or potatoes, the “root” that we harvest is the final stage in the plant’s growth; if it were not harvested, the plant would merely rot in the earth.

so it would be "wasted" food if some human didn't eat the root vegetables. so, they are made FOR US (ideology again), because had they been not made FOR US, they would have been useless waste rotting in the earth.

is this what you believe too?

Furthermore, in plants the sensory mind is only potential, it is “asleep.” They do not feel pain. Although they do have a rudimentary nervous system that responds to injury, the conscious mind that would receive the message of pain in animal organisms is not functional.''

nobody knows what an animal or a plant can feel and in what way. the above is only a hypothesis, not even observable fact.

Animals know friendship, love, passion, leadership. They give you milk, compassion, friendship. Animals have a higher consciousness then plants.

that's an arbitrary statement that is far, very far from reality. i don't believe that animals have "higher consciousness" than plants and there is no way that you actually know something like that.

Spirituality is everything that has got to do with searching within, who you are in essence.

...and therefore has nothing to do with being a vegan.

[thewaycreates]

then, why don't you distinguish between the animal and the product of the animal, such as the milk? when we pick, say some milk, we do not kill the animal, but it continues to grow-no life is taken.

some could argue that its life is taken by its captivation.

[thewaycreates]

Animals know friendship, love, passion, leadership. They give you milk,



really!? holy s**T, thats one dexterous cow! :eek:

[element]

I cannot proof it to you. Yes, I do stick with it: fruits don't kill the tree, vegetables have to be taken near the END of their lifecycle, otherwise they rot. Do they do the same with animals in the slaughterhouses? No, they're either very young or adult, but nowhere near the end of natural life yet.
There is organic meat, doesn't change the fact animals are being slaughtered and blood is spilled..

They have red blood, they are close to us in their 'evolution'. Why should we bother them, killing them.

...and therefore has nothing to do with being a vegan.

How do you know? What have you discovered mate? I'm not talking about reading books and watching videos, I mean spiritual experiences yourself and the benefit one gains with how one eats.

It's up to you if you want to eat the suffering and blood of a caged animal, or you choose to eat plants which either don't kill a tree, or they've been taken at the end of their life cycle. If you still can't see the difference, then we better stop this. You might want to try living on air only.
I always get the feeling you are always looking for facts and solid proof. Then I can tell you, you can't find that with anything on these forums. I really wonder what you believe or know as truth. Guessing, guessing, guessing, wondering, wondering...but what have you experienced?:)

[bigus_dickus]

some could argue that its life is taken by its captivation.

its freedom, possibly yes, though i would still argue about that, but its life, i don't think so.

[bigus_dickus]

I cannot proof it to you. Yes, I do stick with it: fruits don't kill the tree, vegetables have to be taken near the END of their lifecycle, otherwise they rot. Do they do the same with animals in the slaughterhouses? No, they're either very young or adult, but nowhere near the end of natural life yet.
There is organic meat, doesn't change the fact animals are being slaughtered and blood is spilled..

what happens when vegetables (or other forms of life) rot? do you have an idea?

yes they do the same with animals. for example, we can get eggs only from young healthy chicken, not from dead ones.

animals have blood like we do, vegetables have other fluids. is it that significant that blood is of a different color? trees get slaughtered too and their juices are spilled, but no one worries about these guys except me! how about insects? don't they bleed too? or just because you don't see red, it's ok?

They have red blood, they are close to us in their 'evolution'. Why should we bother them, killing them.

they are close to us in their evolution, because they have red blood? do you realize how close you are to a plant? do you know that what you exhale (waste), it inhales (nurtures) and what it exhales you inhale and it's what keeps you and it alive and breathing? they can't get closer than that.

How do you know? What have you discovered mate? I'm not talking about reading books and watching videos, I mean spiritual experiences yourself and the benefit one gains with how one eats.

i don't. i was quoting your sentence in which you said:

"Spirituality is everything that has got to do with searching within, who you are in essence."

well, there's nothing about being vegan in what you said there, is it? or am i missing something?

It's up to you if you want to eat the suffering and blood of a caged animal, or you choose to eat plants which either don't kill a tree, or they've been taken at the end of their life cycle. If you still can't see the difference, then we better stop this. You might want to try living on air only.

you are not trying to manipulate me by appealing to my human emotions, are you? i can do that too, very easily.

I always get the feeling you are always looking for facts and solid proof. Then I can tell you, you can't find that with anything on these forums. I really wonder what you believe or know as truth. Guessing, guessing, guessing, wondering, wondering...but what have you experienced?:)

you don't really expect me to tell you here everything that i have experienced. and i don't wish to tell you some truth that i supposedly know.

i don't have a problem with you being a vegetarian and eating only vegetables. it may be the right thing to do for you, or maybe not, but i wouldn't know, it depends on many things, that an animal vs plant distinction would be insignificant.

what i can tell you though, is that i am not going to turn my nutrition habits to a religion.

[chris]

Element, how long have you been fruitarian or eating a non harming diet for?

[element]

This plant-animal discussion is useless. I say A, you say B.

you are not trying to manipulate me by appealing to my human emotions, are you?

Am I? If so, then that is up to you what to do with it. The words you use in thick black are caged-suffering-blood(spilling). That is what happens to those animals, this is reality.
If you want to make those words in thick black to strenghten your human emotions, then that is fine with me. Your choice. Don't think about me. Think about animals, which your body doesn't need. :rolleyes:

i can do that too, very easily.

So do you have experience! With manipulating? :eek:


you don't really expect me to tell you here everything that i have experienced. and i don't wish to tell you some truth that i supposedly know.

Fair enough. That is up to you. ;)


what i can tell you though, is that i am not going to turn my nutrition habits to a religion.

Good. Neither am I doing that. A nutrition can't be a religion. Look at the dictionairy or internet on what is a religion? :)

[bigus_dickus]

This plant-animal discussion is useless. I say A, you say B.

what? would it be useful if i said "A" too? wtf? you say "B" then! :)

Am I? If so, then that is up to you what to do with it. The words you use in thick black are caged-suffering-blood(spilling). That is what happens to those animals, this is reality.

it happens to humans too. also, to plants, animals, insects, fish.. the forests, we like to burn them or chop them off, so no caging, and blood spilling and apparently no suffering at all. apparently, but not really though.

these "things" don't suffer, only animals do. somehow, i don't believe that.

Think about animals, which your body doesn't need. :rolleyes:

and i suppose you know what my body needs and you're going to tell me about it too, all backed with logic arguments, such as "they have higher consciousness".

So do you have experience! With manipulating? :eek:

yes, why?

Good. Neither am I doing that. A nutrition can't be a religion. Look at the dictionairy or internet on what is a religion? :)

don't be so sure about that when all of your arguments are dogmas without anything substantial besides "blood spilling, caged, suffering", etc. etc. these are arguments widely used in religious debates and have nothing to do with nutrition. do you still think that i don't know what religion is?

[element]

it happens to humans too. also, to plants, animals, insects, fish.. the forests, we like to burn them or chop them off, so no caging, and blood spilling and apparently no suffering at all. apparently, but not really though.

these "things" don't suffer, only animals do. somehow, i don't believe that.

Matter is material, though there is lifeforce to. Does that by instance mean it can feel too?
Plants are material and have 'vegetative' power. It searches food, it absorbs food and it creates new life.
Animals have these to: material and vegetative. But it also has physic. (if this is correct English) It has instincts, feelings, sympathy, compassion, friendship, leadership, socialising.
After that we have humans. Same as animals, though we have rational thinking, logic, and we can think conscious. I'm sure animals can have these to a certain degree, but ours is definately higher. That's why we ''rule'' this planet. But are we wise? That is something we can develop.
I'd like to have your opinion about evolution processes, and how it all fits in.

don't be so sure about that when all of your arguments are dogmas without anything substantial besides "blood spilling, caged, suffering", etc. etc. these are arguments widely used in religious debates and have nothing to do with nutrition. do you still think that i don't know what religion is?

I used those words not to make emotions come up. I use them because they are fact, they are part of it when you eat meat. It's your choice to eat meat, I'm just telling the reality. If you can't handle this and become 'emotional' by it, then why? Ask yourself.

Such words may be used by religious people and atheists (saying this about religious wars and so on), but does it mean I'm making nutrition in a religion?
No. In this way, every discussion can be seen as religion. Anyway, this last thing we discuss is irrelevant.


Chris: Fruitarian? Is such a thing possible? Anyway, non harming is probably impossible. Plants are life, but yes I see animals above that. This does not mean plants are less important in life. But taking fruits from trees and vegetables at the end of their lifecycle is in my opinion less harmful then the slaughterhouses. Animals are very social and as reasons I put up above they are on a higher state then plants.

[chris]

Chris: Fruitarian? Is such a thing possible? Anyway, non harming is probably impossible. Plants are life, but yes I see animals above that. This does not mean plants are less important in life. But taking fruits from trees and vegetables at the end of their lifecycle is in my opinion less harmful then the slaughterhouses. Animals are very social and as reasons I put up above they are on a higher state then plants.

Yes it is possible...Check Fruitarianfitness.com (Just checked his website...It's changed a lot, it used to be a forum a bit like this, now he's trying to turn it into a business but you get the picture). I was a fruitarian for about 4 months but to be honest, I don't believe in it 100% Plus the acidic fruits can be far too strong.

I'll rephrase my question. To what extent do you practice impacting upon sentient beings lifes through diet and how long have you been doing this for?

[izzy]

nobody knows what an animal or a plant can feel and in what way. the above is only a hypothesis, not even observable fact.

BDick

Are you for real ? If you broke my arm you would not know what I would feel either, but you would know that it would hurt ... you are just being argumentative

i am not going to turn my nutrition habits to a religion. BD

Ok SO being empathetic and compassionate towards all living creatures is a religion now .. what are you on ?

[izzy]

don't be so sure about that when all of your arguments are dogmas without anything substantial besides "blood spilling, caged, suffering", etc. etc. these are arguments widely used in religious debates and have nothing to do with nutrition. do you still think that i don't know what religion is?



biggus dickus you are tailking the biggest load of crap I have ever heard

[sevenworlds]

biggus dickus you are tailking the biggest load of crap I have ever heard

I see a lot of sense in what he is saying. As soon as you put the label of "vegetarian" on yourself and make it an ideology and separate yourself from "meat-eaters" then how is that different to someone calling themselves a "Christian" and dividing themselves from a "Muslim"?

The problem here is not about what people eat, it's that certain people are taking a stance and by doing so they are making others wrong. Just like religion does.

There's a difference between making some sort of lifestyle or moral choice to become a vegetarian and listening to what your body wants.

For the last few weeks I've not eaten any meat. I went on a water fast for a week (not because I wanted to but because my body seemed to be indicating I should do it) and since I've returned to eating I've just not had the desire to eat meat. I don't know how long this will last and I wouldn't label myself as a vegetarian but all I know is it feels right for me, I feel the best I've ever felt, but it's a moment by moment thing of listening to what the body wants. If I was to say "ok, I'm now a vegetarian" that would kill my sensitivity of paying attention to what the body wants.

I'm not going to start berating anyone who does eat meat because what business is it of mine? If I am listening to what my body wants how can I be sure someone elses body is not calling them to eat meat? The problems of this world are not caused by what we do but by constantly feeling we should be doing something other than what we are doing!

This applies to all areas of life. We constantly want to create doctrines and dogmas about everything. Life is movement, it's never static. When we come at vegetarianism from a moral point of view (ie. it's wrong to kill animals or this living thing is more conscious than that, etc) and we set ourselves in stone about it, we are trying to make life static, trying to deaden it and fit everything into a concept. We want to imitate and copy and that's not what this life is about. The best anybody can be is align themselves with their own unique flow and that will never be a pattern that can be emulated by others. That applies to what we eat as much as anything else.

[loxalol]

Hi guys! I am in the process of going vegan and doing pretty good at it other than the odd drunken slip up :eek: but im only human!

I really dont see the point in all the arguing over the subject, although i can understand vegans/vegetarians feeling passionate about animal suffering etc but youre not going to change anyones mindset by arguing with them if they have a different opinion... each to their own i say!

my main motivation for going vegan is that nothing seems to be natural anymore... its all processed and pasturised and full of god knows what! meat pumped with antibiotics and steroids, wrapped up in plastic read to bang in the microwave just doesnt appeal to me. plus if its easily possible to have a balanced and nourishing diet without the need to kill/eat animals surely that can only be a good thing?

For all the meat-eaters here this documentary is a real eye opener
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1282796533661048967
im not saying eating meat is a "sin" but if we all try to make more concious decisions about where we get our meat from and how it has been treated the world would be a nicer place... a life is a life afterall :)

[izzy]

hello loxalol

i agree ... but can i have one more dispute before I stop arguing with sevenworlds who has just annoyed me with this comment

As soon as you put the label of "vegetarian" on yourself and make it an ideology and separate yourself from "meat-eaters" then how is that different to someone calling themselves a "Christian" and dividing themselves from a "Muslim"?

seven worlds

Firstly seven worlds I am really fed up with comments like this, you are not the only one to make similar comments, equally I am fed up with the comment re: ' oh you wont eat an animal but what about plants - they have feelings '

Well I did not separate meat eaters from non meaters on this thread and nor did any of the others who seem to agree that the way animals are treated in the food chain is heart breaking ..

You are responsible for the distinction in your little comment, additionally it is not a bloody ideology, paradigm, or any other buzz word type thought process that I am displaying when I am commenting about my thoughts around this subject.

Frankly - i have not been talking about ' meat eaters ' per se but about animal welfare ... please put the emphasis on compassion and kindness towards all creatures which is what i was extolling - ''not your're right I am wrong etc etc '' because I was not doing that..

If you think it is fine to factory farm sentient creatures, to treat them like lumps of flesh, if you think they have no feelings that they are not sentient, that the slaughter house is fine...

then i suggest you do a bit of research around this subject .. PETA have a really educational site about this very subject .. or you need to open your heart ..

http://www.peta.org.uk/factsheet/files/factsheet-Vegetarianism.asp

One thing I do know is that the elite do maintain control over us to a far greater extent because of the food we eat and when we ingest violence and cruelty - it affects us mentally, physically, emotionally

This applies to all areas of life. We constantly want to create doctrines and dogmas about everything. Life is movement, it's never static. When we come at vegetarianism from a moral point of view (ie. it's wrong to kill animals or this living thing is more conscious than that, etc) and we set ourselves in stone about it, we are trying to make life static, trying to deaden it and fit everything into a concept7world

and are you for real with this comment !!!! ????

you ll start using words like postmodernism next !

look do you think it is dogma or a doctrine to be antimurder ? so do you feel that it would be wrong for me to kill another human being ?

If so ... would you class that as doctrine .. dogma.. paradigm ...

blindily eating violence is what deadens your system ... believe me ...

[izzy]

http://www.peta.org.uk/feat/UKvegkit/animals.asp

MEET YOUR MEAT PETA ... please check this out if you really want to know what happens and why some of us feel so strongly ..

[kuro]

im happy to see so many diet conscious people on the board :D

[sevenworlds]

i agree ... but can i have one more dispute before I stop arguing with sevenworlds who has just annoyed me with this comment

Well I did not separate meat eaters from non meaters on this thread and nor did any of the others who seem to agree that the way animals are treated in the food chain is heart breaking ..

You are responsible for the distinction in your little comment, additionally it is not a bloody ideology, paradigm, or any other buzz word type thought process that I am displaying when I am commenting about my thoughts around this subject.

Frankly - i have not been talking about ' meat eaters ' per se but about animal welfare ... please put the emphasis on compassion and kindness towards all creatures which is what i was extolling - ''not your're right I am wrong etc etc '' because I was not doing that..

If you think it is fine to factory farm sentient creatures, to treat them like lumps of flesh, if you think they have no feelings that they are not sentient, that the slaughter house is fine...

then i suggest you do a bit of research around this subject .. PETA have a really educational site about this very subject .. or you need to open your heart ..

You've totally misunderstood me but your reaction backs up my point. What I am saying is very simple - vegetarianism, for most people, is an idea. And when something is an idea (ie. a mental position) people get very defensive about it, no matter how good their initial intentions are.

On the one hand, you talk about showing compassion and caring for animals and then you say I've annoyed you and have a little rant at me, telling me I need to open my heart because you didn't like what I said. Can you see the contradiction?

Of course I don't like to see animals being treated badly but I'm not going to make a stand about it because that could only create opposition. It doesn't matter if your reasons are something noble like animal welfare - that's still an idea - and that's why you got offended by what I said.

I just said it like I saw it. I don't really have a strong viewpoint on it so it really doesn't matter to me if you disagree.

7world

and are you for real with this comment !!!! ????

you ll start using words like postmodernism next !

look do you think it is dogma or a doctrine to be antimurder ? so do you feel that it would be wrong for me to kill another human being ?

If so ... would you class that as doctrine .. dogma.. paradigm ...

blindily eating violence is what deadens your system ... believe me ...

Actually, yes I do see it as dogma to be anti-murder.

When you position yourself as anti-something you are making yourself right and others wrong. That causes conflict and you end up getting more of the same. You'll probably disagree with that but what else are you doing by taking a firm stance like that?

So I'm not anti anything. A man who is not anti-murder would never kill anyone and a man who is not anti-animal cruelty would never be cruel to animals. The best thing a vegetarian could do, IMO, is to quietly go about being a vegetarian. Live by example and let others follow you if they wish. They are more likely to if they see you as contented living that way and not on some kind of mission to change this or that.

That's just how I see it, take it or leave it.

[thewaycreates]

my main motivation for going vegan is that nothing seems to be natural anymore... its all processed and pasturised and full of god knows what! meat pumped with antibiotics and steroids, wrapped up in plastic read to bang in the microwave just doesnt appeal to me.



hows that your main motivation for going vegan,
its very easy to get Grass-fed meat and raw organic dairy?

not trying to sound combatative, but i just dont see that as a reason to go vegan, theres natural alternative available.

[izzy]

Of course I don't like to see animals being treated badly but I'm not going to make a stand about it because that could only create opposition 7 worlds

Hi 7

I am actually quite shocked by this answer,

and this one ..

Actually, yes I do see it as dogma to be anti-murder.

When you position yourself as anti-something you are making yourself right and others wrong. That causes conflict and you end up getting more of the same. You'll probably disagree with that but what else are you doing by taking a firm stance like that?



We have different outlooks completely , for example if I SAW a child or an animal being harmed, I could not walk by, I would intervene... i am sure you would too

Your're right in one sense, well in my opinion, you are right in one sense and that is, it is better to frame things in the positive, ie what you want to achieve rather then to focus on the negative ,, but ... still..

I believe that it is our job as humans to clean up this world, make it a better, kinder more egalitarian place, this wont happen if the world is full of ostriches with their metaphorical heads stuck in the sand..

No we have to make decisions collectively that bring about changes, you are right by creating what we want not what we dont want ...

But still I think being a slave to the staus quo is going to ensure cruelty and abuse to all animals .. including the human kind will just continue ,..

vegetarianism, for most people, is an idea. And when something is an idea (ie. a mental position) people get very defensive about it, no matter how good their initial intentions are.

7w

additionally being vegetarian, for me has never ever been a mental thing, it has always been a heart thing ...

[urbanguerilla]

If you were hungry and there was a ready made vegan meal on a plate for you and someone said 'eat this or slit this cows throat and I'll give you a nice cooked steak' what would you rather do?
I don't like to judge people for choosing to eat meat, but it does seem a bit pointless and sad for the animals. Those PETA videos are heartbreaking and watching 'meat your meat' left me feeling quite shaken, much more so than any videos of vegetables being harvested ever could. I don't doubt that plants are sentient and they are probably a lot more aware than most dare to imagine, but humans can relate to the pain, loneliness, cold, grief, fear and attachments that animals experience and it is natural to have more compassion towards that than a potato being pulled from the ground. we need to eat, and assuming plants feel 'pain' then a veg diet at least results in less plants being killed with the added bonus of not having to enslave and kill animals, whose pain we are more aware of. thats my perspective on why I think its less desirable to kill an animal than a plant, but theres also the idea that humans don't even actually NEED meat to be healthy (In truth you'll probably feel better for not ingesting the animals fear that stays in its muscles from the terror it experiences in the abattoir). Theres much evidence that humans are naturally herbivorous, heres one link: http://www.tierversuchsgegner.org/wiki/index.php?title=Taxonomy

Anyway, like I said its not for me to judge your ethical and diet choices, I just wanted to offer my reasons for choosing a vegan diet.

[loxalol]

hows that your main motivation for going vegan,
its very easy to get Grass-fed meat and raw organic dairy?

Ive heard that antibiotics can still be used on animals which then go on to be classed as "organic" meat, i dont take antibiotics myself so i would prefer for them to not be in my food - i cant remember exactly where i heard this, i will try to dig out some more info.

As for dairy products i was in two minds about it at first so i cut it out of my diet until i could decide, after about 3 months of no dairy i had a cup of tea with cows milk and was instantly sick - so that pretty much made my mind up for me :D

but apart from that i feel that if its easy enough to have a nourishing diet that does not involve the mass captivation and (in most cases) horrific treatment of other beings, then that is the only logical choice (for me :) )

[urbanguerilla]

oh yeah that reminds me... about milk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYpafipJyDE

[loxalol]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzwG9B9orFs

I hate this one, they all look so sad :(

[izzy]

yes poor things .. I do use organic milk .. but I have to say it has started to bother me more.

I live in the country and am surrounded by dairy farmers and cows and it is so sweet when thei babies are born .. but something I SAW a few years ago still upsets me.

a calf had been born over night - from my bedroom window i could see this little calf and his or her mum standing over him or her and also the whole herd all the female cows in the field had formed a circle around this baby - as if they were protecting and admiring the little cutey.

a few hrs later the farmer arrived - he picked up baby and carried him away - the mother cow was following th efarmer crying out and nudging him - all the other cows were following her ..

she cried and bellowed for days ... that is when I realised that dairy farming was nt so kind...

according to PETA the babies get shipped overseas sometimes for journeys up to 50 hrs and then they are put in a crate deprived of touch / mum / company / sunlight - they are made fat / immobile and then killed ...

then sold as veal ..

although the beef farmer in the next farm keeps his cows - his baby ones - they grow up in the fields with mum ... i know ultimately they are killed but they do have a much better life for a few years ..

what can I use instead of milk ? and does anyone know a milk producer who does not take the baby cows away from their mum ?

[loxalol]

Im not sure about milk producers that keep their calfs but there are a variety of substitutes such as soy milk, rice milk, almond milk etc which i now much prefer... the real problem is cheese, there just doesnt seem to be any alternative that quite cuts it :(

[pilgrim]

http://protectacow.typepad.com/goshalla/

[sevenworlds]

Your're right in one sense, well in my opinion, you are right in one sense and that is, it is better to frame things in the positive, ie what you want to achieve rather then to focus on the negative ,, but ... still..

It's not really even about being positive for me. I see positive and negative as two sides of the same coin so they are both responsible for the mess in this world. If you believe in one you believe in the other.

My thing is to look at the world outside of the framework of positive and negative, good and bad, etc... When you don't define yourself as pro-murder nor anti-murder what is left? You'd be surprised that there is an intelligence left that operates perfectly well by itself without any interference from the mind about what you SHOULD be doing. You would automatically take action to help the child or animal if you could without any idea you are "saving" anything.

I believe that it is our job as humans to clean up this world, make it a better, kinder more egalitarian place, this wont happen if the world is full of ostriches with their metaphorical heads stuck in the sand..

To me, that statement is what is actually causing the problems in the first place. We are an incredibly arrogant species in that respect. We have created this great self-importance and the more we try to "fix" the world the more we seem to mess it up. The planet doesn't need fixing. It is not the planet or the animals we should be trying to save. They are all fine. It is ourselves we should be trying to fix. But you see, it's easier to remain in a state of denial and try and sort external things.

If the ostrich reference was aimed at me, you couldn't be more wrong. Don't mistake my detached outlook for being passive or in denial. I'm not hiding away from anything. In fact, it's only when you face up to things AS THEY ARE that you realise there's nothing to save or change.

But still I think being a slave to the staus quo is going to ensure cruelty and abuse to all animals .. including the human kind will just continue ,..

Again, if you are suggesting I am somehow a slave to the system you've got me all wrong. It is the people who have ideas about trying to save or change things who are slaves, without even realising it. They are angry or frustrated at the injustices they see and so they react, not realising that they are just polluting this world with more anger and frustration, which of course, the system uses as food.

I don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye on this so there isn't much point in me saying anymore. It's been nice debating with you though. All the best :)

[urbanguerilla]

Im not sure about milk producers that keep their calfs but there are a variety of substitutes such as soy milk, rice milk, almond milk etc which i now much prefer... the real problem is cheese, there just doesnt seem to be any alternative that quite cuts it :(

yeah, all the vegan hard cheeses are a bit crappy, but if you don't mind cream cheese I've found that some of those types can be ok... not sure about nutritional value though :p

[izzy]

To me, that statement is what is actually causing the problems in the first place. We are an incredibly arrogant species in that respect. We have created this great self-importance and the more we try to "fix" the world the more we seem to mess it up. The planet doesn't need fixing. It is not the planet or the animals we should be trying to save. They are all fine. It is ourselves we should be trying to fix. But you see, it's easier to remain in a state of denial and try and sort external things.



well you have only partially understood my meaning - I agree - work on ourselves, be silent warriers, regain our power - ie by reclaiming our personal power internally ... connect to who we really are ... all of us do it ....

the world will be transformed ....

but righjt now we are in transition from the old world to the new - it is a precarious period ... and the world is not fine right now ... not at all ... not for many many people

And i am not in a stgate of denial - you really are deliberately misunderstanding me - you are th eone with a doctrine - all is one - do nothing - all is fine - taht paradigm is fine for the new world but as i have said we are not there now ... and the stance you are taking will ensure we never get there ..

I did not say yo had to be an eco warrier ... but all of us have a responsiblity to clean up our own personal blockages and then the world ... and then the new world can be born where your doctrine will fit in fine

[doyouknowyourdead]

If you were hungry and there was a ready made vegan meal on a plate for you and someone said 'eat this or slit this cows throat and I'll give you a nice cooked steak' what would you rather do?
I don't like to judge people for choosing to eat meat, but it does seem a bit pointless and sad for the animals. Those PETA videos are heartbreaking and watching 'meat your meat' left me feeling quite shaken, much more so than any videos of vegetables being harvested ever could. I don't doubt that plants are sentient and they are probably a lot more aware than most dare to imagine, but humans can relate to the pain, loneliness, cold, grief, fear and attachments that animals experience and it is natural to have more compassion towards that than a potato being pulled from the ground. we need to eat, and assuming plants feel 'pain' then a veg diet at least results in less plants being killed with the added bonus of not having to enslave and kill animals, whose pain we are more aware of. thats my perspective on why I think its less desirable to kill an animal than a plant, but theres also the idea that humans don't even actually NEED meat to be healthy (In truth you'll probably feel better for not ingesting the animals fear that stays in its muscles from the terror it experiences in the abattoir). Theres much evidence that humans are naturally herbivorous, heres one link: http://www.tierversuchsgegner.org/wiki/index.php?title=Taxonomy

Anyway, like I said its not for me to judge your ethical and diet choices, I just wanted to offer my reasons for choosing a vegan diet.

Yes. I would also like to add that most vegetables depend on being eaten in order for healthy reproduction to ensue over diverse geographical areas. IE an animal eats a plant and it poops out the seeds. The seeds may be transported to different locations, giving the seedlings a chance to grow in different (perhaps more supportive) environments.

This is similar to how flowers purposefully attract bees, hummingbirds, and other insects with bright colors and sweet nectar. They depend on these other creatures for pollination!

So do I feel as a vegetarian that I am doing plants a disservice? No, I genuinely believe they want to be eaten. I have deducted this notion from pure biology.


Compassion is good nutrition.

[sevenworlds]

And i am not in a stgate of denial - you really are deliberately misunderstanding me - you are th eone with a doctrine - all is one - do nothing - all is fine - taht paradigm is fine for the new world but as i have said we are not there now ... and the stance you are taking will ensure we never get there ..

“Life lived for tomorrow will always be just a day away from being realized.”

[pilgrim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQVsfuRpwA

I'm posting this again, because the original link has been removed.

[meave]

please why all the hatred towards us meat eating folks it just makes want eat more meat i don't expect vegans and vegatrains to eat it but each to thier own i know you think im wrong ps anything about pasturised goats milk as this is what i give my wean

[izzy]

please why all the hatred towards us meat eating folks meave

There has been no hate displayed towards meat eating folk.. why did you say that ? and based on what evidence please ?

[meave]

meave

There has been no hate displayed towards meat eating folk.. why did you say that ? and based on what evidence please ?

maybe hatred was a strong word sorry to affend just don't like people making others feel guilty

[pilgrim]

maybe hatred was a strong word sorry to affend just don't like people making others feel guilty
YOU feel guilty because YOU know that unnecessesarily killing animals is wrong. Don't blame it on others who are simply presenting the truth.

[element]

please why all the hatred towards us meat eating folks it just makes want eat more meat i don't expect vegans and vegatrains to eat it but each to thier own i know you think im wrong ps anything about pasturised goats milk as this is what i give my wean

As Nickatnoon61 said this brilliantly;

TRANSLATION: I don't like to be reminded that my carnivorous behavior is obscene,despicable,harmful, and TOTALLY unnecessary.

[meave]

YOU feel guilty because YOU know that unnecessesarily killing animals is wrong. Don't blame it on others who are simply presenting the truth.

i dont feel guilty about eating animals its making other feel guilty for doing it

[element]

i dont feel guilty about eating animals its making other feel guilty for doing it

Then why post?:)

[pilgrim]

i dont feel guilty about eating animals its making other feel guilty for doing it
If you support animal killing and eat the corpses of murdered animals you should feel guilty, otherwise you would be a psychopath! :eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4

[meave]

Then why post?:)

that was in response to some body else read back

[meave]

If you support animal killing and eat the corpses of murdered animals you should feel guilty, otherwise you would be a psychopath! :eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4

im a psychopath so be it :D

[izzy]

but clearly you are NOT .. or you would nt be posting here and giving us all a guilt trip :)

read MEET YOUR MEAT the PETA sheet it is very informative I put the link a couple of posts back

dont feel guilty about eating animals its making other feel guilty for doing it

and you clearly do feel guilty at some level ..cause no one else can make you feel guilty ,,, what this thread is doing is reminding you of the pain and suffering of the animals that you consume .. especially factory farmed and killed at the slaughter house ...

change your choices ?

[izzy]

Oh just noticed Pilgrim has added the utube link .. its true and sad and heart breaking ... if you eat support this market .... well what can i say .. changes will only begin with us .. consumers saying NO

[meave]

i could argue this all night if yous wish but really canny be buggered each to there own i eat meat so be it i used live along from a piggery yes it isnt nice they way animals are slaughtered but it didnt put me off a tasty bacon sandwitch with brown sauce

[element]

The big thing is, human bodies have no need for meat. So why kill?:)

[izzy]

well maybe one day you will wake up a bit more and start to see a sentient creature not ' bacon ' when you try to eat bacon sandwiches ...

you ll understand then ...

[meave]

i dont just see bacon i see pork gammon ham cracklin i could argue this all night its all good banter :D Vive La Difference

[bigus_dickus]

Matter is material, though there is lifeforce to. Does that by instance mean it can feel too?
Plants are material and have 'vegetative' power. It searches food, it absorbs food and it creates new life.
Animals have these to: material and vegetative. But it also has physic. (if this is correct English) It has instincts, feelings, sympathy, compassion, friendship, leadership, socialising.

this doesn't make any sense. what is 'vegetative' power?

plants have instincts, may have feelings too, sympathy, friendship and more. but they are so unlike us, that we will never understand. try to talk to a flower (a living flower, not a dying one in a pot), try playing classical music to plants, you will be amazed with their response. they get "happy", but they don't laugh, they get "sad" but they don't cry. i sometimes feel that i can communicate more with a tree than with a dog, or even a human being. without words and other vocal expressions, only by feelings. but that's too vague.. how can we be sure.

but, anyway, let me tell you about animals. stacking animals one on top of the other, raising them for consumption, giving them hormones to make them big, is the wrong way to go. farmers love their animals very much and they love them back. they love them as their children, they take care of them, they are present when they are born, they feel for them when they are sick. humans don't have to be cruel towards animals or anything, we just pick the nasty "industrial" side of the situation and think that this is how it always was. but, we treat plants the same way too. why do you feel free and happy when you are in a forest surrounded by beautiful vegetation, do you think that all this nature doesn't talk to you, just because it doesn't use words and vocal chords..

After that we have humans. Same as animals, though we have rational thinking, logic, and we can think conscious. I'm sure animals can have these to a certain degree, but ours is definately higher. That's why we ''rule'' this planet. But are we wise? That is something we can develop.
I'd like to have your opinion about evolution processes, and how it all fits in.

it is one big system, called eco-system, in synergy.

the word "eco-", is the Greek word "oikos", which means "house".

ecology on etymonline.com (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ecology)

it is our house.. nature is our house and everything is contained in it. there is no separation between animals, plants, insects and humans, it is only illusory. our mind gets in the way and we think that just by being "logical", we are superior. no.. it's only one of our characteristic properties as human beings, we are not superior to anything, like elephants are not superior because of their size, or huge trees for that matter.

we and nature, are ONE.

evolution does not start, nor does it end with the human being. the human being is a process of nature's evolution. nothing evolves on its own right.

and what about water.. do you think that water is dead and unconscious? if yes, allow me to disagree. water may be the highest form of consciousness on earth, the base of all life. and what about the electron. see, things are not that simple. just because we think like we think, it doesn't mean that we are superior and destined to dominate, rather that we are supposed to be the guardians of this place. but instead of doing this, we have chosen to dominate and rule for our own pleasures.

I used those words not to make emotions come up. I use them because they are fact, they are part of it when you eat meat. It's your choice to eat meat, I'm just telling the reality. If you can't handle this and become 'emotional' by it, then why? Ask yourself.

sorry, i didn't mean to say that you are deliberately trying to instill guilt in me. but the people that have convinced you probably did. so did the people who posted afterwards and all these videos, they all promote guilt. we don't have to feel guilty for being physical beings in this life. it is how it is and we are IT!

Such words may be used by religious people and atheists (saying this about religious wars and so on), but does it mean I'm making nutrition in a religion?
No. In this way, every discussion can be seen as religion. Anyway, this last thing we discuss is irrelevant.

i wasn't talking about you specifically, but 'vegetarianism' is a dogma as i showed you and devotion to a dogma is being religious. being religious is not bad and to be hated, after all we all are religious whether we know it or not. but, i prefer to be the religion than being religious (as Osho had said).

in other words, i don't just love.. I AM love. since you know this and consciously choose it, there is nothing that can put you down or harm you. there's not a little piece of hate or fear or guilt inside you.

when i sit down to eat, i thank God or whatever that is, for everything that is being offered to me: animals, plants, water, light, the air, even cosmic radiation, i consume. all this, is me.

[element]

this doesn't make any sense. what is 'vegetative' power?

plants have instincts, may have feelings too, sympathy, friendship and more. but they are so unlike us, that we will never understand. try to talk to a flower (a living flower, not a dying one in a pot), try playing classical music to plants, you will be amazed with their response. they get "happy", but they don't laugh, they get "sad" but they don't cry.

You say feelings, sympathy, friendship and more. How would you know? What you put up there is very vague.

but, anyway, let me tell you about animals. stacking animals one on top of the other, raising them for consumption, giving them hormones to make them big, is the wrong way to go.

I agree.

farmers love their animals very much and they love them back. they love them as their children, they take care of them, they are present when they are born, they feel for them when they are sick.

Some do, other don't. If they get raised to be a useless beef then I wonder if they love them as much as their children. Don't forget: murder.

humans don't have to be cruel towards animals or anything, we just pick the nasty "industrial" side of the situation and think that this is how it always was. but, we treat plants the same way too. why do you feel free and happy when you are in a forest surrounded by beautiful vegetation, do you think that all this nature doesn't talk to you, just because it doesn't use words and vocal chords..

No, never said that. My point is there is no need for killing of animals. There is no good reason.

and what about water.. do you think that water is dead and unconscious?

No.

in other words, i don't just love.. I AM love. since you know this and consciously choose it, there is nothing that can put you down or harm you. there's not a little piece of hate or fear or guilt inside you.
when i sit down to eat, i thank God or whatever that is, for everything that is being offered to me: animals, plants, water, light, the air, even cosmic radiation, i consume. all this, is me.

In such ways we can justify anything. I could kill you, and say I did it for reasons of love. Or I could rape a women and say I was in love. Certain things should be avoided, such as the killing of innocent lives. That's all.

You say we are part of the ecosystem, which is true, but it is humans who fuck up with this world. Humans destroy ecosystems, we aren't perfectly in synergy with it.

In the end, there is no reason to kill animals.

[bigus_dickus]

You say feelings, sympathy, friendship and more. How would you know? What you put up there is very vague.

i said "they may". i don't know. and i don't know if animals have the above as well. do you?

Some do, other don't. If they get raised to be a useless beef then I wonder if they love them as much as their children. Don't forget: murder.

if a lion attacks you to feed itself, do you consider this murder? is the lion a murderer to be convicted?

No, never said that. My point is there is no need for killing of animals. There is no good reason.

the reason is the same with the animal's reason. feeding is not a bad reason. otherwise, what would be your reason to live? you just choose what to eat and that's all.

In such ways we can justify anything.

no we can't!

I could kill you, and say I did it for reasons of love. Or I could rape a women and say I was in love. Certain things should be avoided, such as the killing of innocent lives. That's all.

no you can't. unless you are stupid.

You say we are part of the ecosystem, which is true, but it is humans who fuck up with this world. Humans destroy ecosystems, we aren't perfectly in synergy with it.

and by converting to vegans, we will somehow be in perfect synergy? how does that follow? why not just don't touch anything and just kill ourselves then, if we are no use, or if there is no reason for humans to exist.

In the end, there is no reason to kill animals.

why?

[element]

i said "they may". i don't know. and i don't know if animals have the above as well. do you?

Yes, look at animals, live with animals, and you will see.

if a lion attacks you to feed itself, do you consider this murder? is the lion a murderer to be convicted?

A lion kills because he is hungry or he protects his area or group. Raising animals and then caging them, using them as biological food machines and killing them is totally different. Even if it's the organic way, the animal still get's killed, which is totally unnessecairy.

The difference between plants and animals is that we need the vitamins and minerals. Animal flesh is not needed. Animal killing and suffering is not needed. Go search it up yourself before you quote me again.

According to your beliefs, in the end, if I had to choose between killing a bacteria or you, you would not care.

[bigus_dickus]

Yes, look at animals, live with animals, and you will see.

i have lived with cats for all my life. my last one, was with me for 22 years. i have also done farmer's work, walking cows and sheep to the field and back and guarding them while feeding. i have said how i feel about them before, no need to repeat myself.

The difference between plants and animals is that we need the vitamins and minerals. Animal flesh is not needed. Animal killing and suffering is not needed. Go search it up yourself before you quote me again.

that's what you think. you choose what to eat and so do i and you have no right to tell me what to do, as i don't have the right to tell you what to do as well.

According to your beliefs, in the end, if I had to choose between killing a bacteria or you, you would not care.

that's just foolish of you to say that. bye bye.

[element]

that's what you think. you choose what to eat and so do i and you have no right to tell me what to do, as i don't have the right to tell you what to do as well.

I do not tell you what you MUST do. I tell animal suffering and killing is simply not needed. We can live on fruits and vegetables, so WHY should we kill animals? It's a QUESTION, not an order.

You walk away from the question.

that's just foolish of you to say that. bye bye.

Why?

Also,
A lion kills because he is hungry or he protects his area or group. Raising animals and then caging them, using them as biological food machines and killing them is totally different. Even if it's the organic way, the animal still get's killed, which is totally unnessecairy.

[meave]

because other wise we would have to cull them