this site is pro masonry

[mwgdrwg]

this is my last post on this forum

thanks lime lady for showing me that this is site is pro masonry

[daveashe]

Why would anyone be against the building of structures from individual units laid in and bound together by mortar?

Houses would fall apart without masonry!

[manchurian_candidate]

this is my last post on this forum

thanks lime lady for showing me that this is site is pro masonry

Thats not true at all. Just because people are not abusing the masons on here doesnt mean we support anything/everything they are about! I thought we were conversing with them to learn about them and what they get up to.:rolleyes:

[tron]

this is my last post on this forum

thanks lime lady for showing me that this is site is pro masonry

*yawn* Your last post? Good! :rolleyes:

'Infinite Love to All, unless your a freemason'

[manchurian_candidate]

*yawn* Your last post? Good! :rolleyes:

'Infinite Love to All, unless your a freemason'

The last 60 of mwg's posts seemed to be attacking Mike Martin anyway.

[critical_analysis]

Thats not true at all. Just because people are not abusing the masons on here doesnt mean we support anything/everything they are about! I thought we were conversing with them to learn about them and what they get up to.:rolleyes:

I agree that being abusive is not the way at all, though I doubt anything new is learnt by conversing with them. All I have found out from them is that they are upstanding citizens who do more for the community than the average man.
Though they have shown indirectly that they love avoiding questions, love playing with semantics when debating and generally give off an air of superiority when conversing with most people on this site. (I don’t just mean those that are abusive to them either)

As I see it they are here purely to disrupt and to discredit peoples opinions, which is fair enough I guess being we all wish to live in a free world.

[lumukanda]

we are all free to ignore them.

[manchurian_candidate]

I agree that being abusive is not the way at all, though I doubt anything new is learnt by conversing with them. All I have found out from them is that they are upstanding citizens who do more for the community than the average man.
Though they have shown indirectly that they love avoiding questions, love playing with semantics when debating and generally give off an air of superiority when conversing with most people on this site. (I don’t just mean those that are abusive to them either)

As I see it they are here purely to disrupt and to discredit peoples opinions, which is fair enough I guess being we all wish to live in a free world.

That what I meant, sorta like reading between the lines cheers Critical, you put it perfectly :):) Didnt explain myself the best there haha :)

[critical_analysis]

That what I meant, sorta like reading between the lines cheers Critical, you put it perfectly :):) Didnt explain myself the best there haha :)


LOL fair play.
I guess if you are not familiar with reading between the lines you don’t find yourself on this site, maybe the interaction is generally of value after all. ;)

Maybe we should cut the thread starter some slack though. I'm guessing he is quite young and not used to conversing without wearing his heart on his sleeve. Honesty while sometimes making people uncomfortable is really an admiral trait; if not always acceptable in the world we live in.
(Last part not directed at you Manchurian)

[steevo]

I agree that being abusive is not the way at all, though I doubt anything new is learnt by conversing with them. All I have found out from them is that they are upstanding citizens who do more for the community than the average man.
Though they have shown indirectly that they love avoiding questions, love playing with semantics when debating and generally give off an air of superiority when conversing with most people on this site. (I don’t just mean those that are abusive to them either)

As I see it they are here purely to disrupt and to discredit peoples opinions, which is fair enough I guess being we all wish to live in a free world.

Yup!

[3ill]

Oh come on. Facking drama queen. Why don't you just stop posting? Why did you feel the need to post something as a big exit? I haven't posted here for months. I can't even remember how long. I didn't feel the need to Declare it that's for sure, I just got sick of the B.S., so I kept my interests to myself. I've lurked alot since then and it's seemed to have gotten worse. The douchebag that started shit on the mason forums, I tell ya, the way it was played started making them look good.

Have fun.

Peace,
3!LL

[synergy777]

the masons if they know of this site, most probably have a good laugh at us imbeciles, to them we must look like dogs chasing their tails,lol

[masonfree party]

plenty of masonic infiltraitors on this site...what ya say mr. Gosling? ;-)

[perry_mason]

plenty of masonic infiltraitors on this site...what ya say mr. Gosling? ;-)

It doesn't take much infiltrating, it's a free forum anyone can join and was linked to on Masonic forum by one of your own members. I'm enjoying the lively discussion.;)

As for Mwgdrwg he asked a question which was answered honestly but then refused to accept this truth for whatever reason, maybe it didn't fit in with his view of things. Claiming to know the real answer to this simple question M refused to tell anyone what the real answer was leading to the conclsion that he's bluffing and has no actual facts.

[fullfathomfive]

this is my last post on this forum

thanks lime lady for showing me that this is site is pro masonry

Damn, and I was just about to invite you to join my local lodge.

[intruder]

more importantly, this site endorses free speech.

[perry_mason]

more importantly, this site endorses free speech.

Quite right, It's good Mason's can join in the conversation and give their opinions.

[critical_analysis]

Quite right, It's good Mason's can join in the conversation and give their opinions.

Shame you can't practice free speech though eh, what with blood oaths and all that.

[masonfree party]

Quite right, It's good Mason's can join in the conversation and give their opinions.

yeah but not sure we want a bunch of legalised mafia type crooks on here...we all know what happened to ken Noye don't we?

[fullfathomfive]

Shame you can't practice free speech though eh, what with blood oaths and all that.

Are you referring to the Masons or the DI forum? :D

[steevo]

Freemasons are just parasites who feed off us. Freemasonary is organised corruption on a massive scale who murder anyone gets in their way. Freemasons will be stopped soon and named and shamed.

[intruder]

"But the world is no more justified in silencing the opinion of one man than that one man would be if he had the power in silencing all the world."
John Stuart Mill

[perry_mason]

Shame you can't practice free speech though eh, what with blood oaths and all that.

I can say whatever I please, I just choose not to. The only secrets that I swore not to reveal are the modes of recognition and even these aren't very secret anymore, they're all over the net and also on a few of the threads here. Nothing else in Freemasonry is secret, just private.

I chose to swear not to reveal those secrets at my intiation which I attended of my own free will, no one forced me. The traditional penalties have been removed from the UGLE ritual and as in many other things we're only ever symbolic.

[perry_mason]

Freemasons are just parasites who feed off us. Freemasonary is organised corruption on a massive scale who murder anyone gets in their way. Freemasons will be stopped soon and named and shamed.

Please provide evidence Steevo. Where are all these Masonic murders?

I don't know how I feed of you: I work, pay taxes and do my best to make the world a better place.

[thirdwave]

this is my last post on this forum

thanks lime lady for showing me that this is site is pro masonry

LOL

what else!

:rolleyes:

[synergy777]

could i join the masons?

[diamond dogs]

this is my last post on this forum

thanks lime lady for showing me that this is site is pro masonry

Call me thick but I was looking for a link for the last half hour!! :o:o

[zero1]

the masons if they know of this site, most probably have a good laugh at us imbeciles, to them we must look like dogs chasing their tails,lol

That's it, exactly right...

[zero1]

could i join the masons?

:D

If Syn joins, I'm joining too.

[finegreen]

lol. To funny.

[synergy777]

well i think,

if the most high is expecting us to do everything

without helping or living up to the standards he/she sets for us, thats hypocritical.

so if he/she is going to hustle us, betray/manipulate us,

at least with the devil we know we are getting hustled/betrayed in the end.

the most high says i love you all, i guide you all, i support you all, but doesn't.

whereas the devil says, you will get all the money, power, women etc,

but in the end i will screw you, hustle you, own you etc.

so fu*k it, if you going to get hustled either way,

might aswell have some fun, before, lol

how can we be real, compassionate to eachother,

when the most high/source isn't compassionate/real/supportive to us?

or am i just an impatience, scared, spoilt brat, lol

[intruder]

yes, but, the Washington Monument is STILL 555 ft. tall, or 6660 inches.

6660/11 = 605.45

or that DAMN 11/9 configuration yet again.

[synergy777]

i have been to the washington monument, the obelisk, the whole place has negative vibes, i wish i could blow all the obelisks up, the ones in washington, rome, london and egypt/india.

blunt in one hand, bazooka in the other, with my mates who have case of beers, lol

[intruder]

i have been to the washington monument, the obelisk, the whole place has negative vibes, i wish i could blow all the obelisks up, the ones in washington, rome, london and egypt/india.

blunt in one hand, bazooka in the other, with my mates who have case of beers, lol

easy synergy!!! although...call me if the plan goes forward. :)

[finegreen]

some of our greatest military minds in our world have accomplished great feats with blunts, bazookas and cases of beer.


Good luck man

[kweli]

well i think,

if the most high is expecting us to do everything

without helping or living up to the standards he/she sets for us, thats hypocritical.

so if he/she is going to hustle us, betray/manipulate us,

at least with the devil we know we are getting hustled/betrayed in the end.

the most high says i love you all, i guide you all, i support you all, but doesn't.

whereas the devil says, you will get all the money, power, women etc,

but in the end i will screw you, hustle you, own you etc.

so fu*k it, if you going to get hustled either way,

might aswell have some fun, before, lol

how can we be real, compassionate to eachother,

when the most high/source isn't compassionate/real/supportive to us?

or am i just an impatience, scared, spoilt brat, lol

Nah, your feelings are natural Syn.

Remember though, debauchery aint all it's cracked up to be, (I know lol ;)), the shallowness of it gets boring after a time. Just love yourself a bit more, and thing will get better.

[synergy777]

bring the beers mate,

my rasta mate will get the blunt/weed,

my muslim mate ibhrahim shifty, lol will get the bazookas,

my sikh mate will get the money/tickets/hotels, and we are off.

we can get dondaz to film it, and planetfrog to present it, sorted bruv.

[intruder]

DEAL!!

call me crazy, but I hope that God has his own home theatre with complete access to the history of this planet. For me, this entire passion play IS indeed "the greatest story EVER told." The notion of life on other planets intrigues me, still, I YEARN to see the TRUTH of this one.

[intruder]

some of our greatest military minds in our world have accomplished great feats with blunts, bazookas and cases of beer.


Good luck man


the "G" intrigues me.Aside from the obvious "gnosis" and "God". the 7th letter of the alphabet, which ties in with toroidal topology. "G"...to generate perhaps. I can also see it as an unfurling spiral.

[kblood]

Another poster who thinks this forum is pro something just due to defending someone against abuse... :rolleyes:

As for the Freemasons, I wont ever be convinced that they are all do gooders to the bone. So far the questions that have been asked them have been answered quite well, but they probably have secrets that does refrain them from answering honestly. But with more than 200 lodges around the world, and thinking Illuminati might exist among them, then it is also likely that they have most their lodges Illuminati free ;)

It is interesting to learn about the life of some freemasons though. They are even likeable and everything :) Imo that is.

[perry_mason]

could i join the masons?

Hi Synergy,

In a nutshell:

To join the UGLE (United Grand Lodge of England) the Masonic body to which I belong, you need to be 21 or over, male and beleive in a supreme bieng. No one will ever ask you to justify or elaborate on the bieng which you belief in.

If you met these criteria then if you so wished you could begin the process of petitioning a lodge wherin more would be explained to you about Freemasonry and joining.

There are other Masonic bodies which have women-only lodges, mixed lodges and also where you do not have to beleive in a supreme bieng.

[perry_mason]

yeah but not sure we want a bunch of legalised mafia type crooks on here...we all know what happened to ken Noye don't we?

Yes, he ended up inside for the crimes he committed and rightly so. So far he's still bieng rejected for parole.

[zero1]

In a nutshell:

To join the UGLE (United Grand Lodge of England) the Masonic body to which I belong, you need to be 21 or over, male and beleive in a supreme bieng. No one will ever ask you to justify or elaborate on the bieng which you belief in.

If you met these criteria then if you so wished you could begin the process of petitioning a lodge wherin more would be explained to you about Freemasonry and joining.

There are other Masonic bodies which have women-only lodges, mixed lodges and also where you do not have to beleive in a supreme bieng.

I'll bet no-one here didn't already know most of that.

So, what's the money like? What Worshipful Master do I gotta blow to get a good deal for my business?

Why are low-level Masons like you on conspiracy websites?

Is it okay if my idea of the Supreme Being is myself?

Does Lucifer give Christmas bonuses?

C'mon, spill the beans...

[kblood]

Hi Synergy,

In a nutshell:

To join the UGLE (United Grand Lodge of England) the Masonic body to which I belong, you need to be 21 or over, male and beleive in a supreme bieng. No one will ever ask you to justify or elaborate on the bieng which you belief in.

If you met these criteria then if you so wished you could begin the process of petitioning a lodge wherin more would be explained to you about Freemasonry and joining.

There are other Masonic bodies which have women-only lodges, mixed lodges and also where you do not have to beleive in a supreme bieng.

Supreme being? That does sound fishy. Is that instead of saying you have to be christian like in some countries?

I get the feeling that whatever supreme being you believe in, even yourself, you at some point will have to compare to some other supreme being, and match power... :eek::confused::rolleyes:

That could be kind of awesome. I would choose me and have a go :p

[kweli]

Supreme being? That does sound fishy. Is that instead of saying you have to be christian like in some countries?

I get the feeling that whatever supreme being you believe in, even yourself, you at some point will have to compare to some other supreme being, and match power... :eek::confused::rolleyes:

That could be kind of awesome. I would choose me and have a go :p

It's the same in 12 step fellowships, (AA/NA etc), If you want to work the program, you are required to believe in a 'Higher Power' Not many seem to think this is 'fishy' I do btw.

[perry_mason]

I'll bet no-one here didn't already know most of that.

So, what's the money like? What Worshipful Master do I gotta blow to get a good deal for my business?

Why are low-level Masons like you on conspiracy websites?

Is it okay if my idea of the Supreme Being is myself?

Does Lucifer give Christmas bonuses?

C'mon, spill the beans...

I'll bet no-one here didn't already know most of that.
I don't know what you know so I started at the begining.

So, what's the money like? What Worshipful Master do I gotta blow to get a good deal for my business?
You can blow the Worshipful Master if you want but I doubt it would do anything for your business prospects. My lodge fees for a year are £73 and £150.

Why are low-level Masons like you on conspiracy websites?
We're all on the level, Mason or not. I'm on this website because I choose to be, I've had a good time so far talking about Masonry

Is it okay if my idea of the Supreme Being is myself?
That's a complex question and I'm no Theologist or expert on Deities. For what it's worth it's cool with me.;)

Does Lucifer give Christmas bonuses?
I haven't a clue.

[perry_mason]

Supreme being? That does sound fishy. Is that instead of saying you have to be christian like in some countries?

I get the feeling that whatever supreme being you believe in, even yourself, you at some point will have to compare to some other supreme being, and match power... :eek::confused::rolleyes:

That could be kind of awesome. I would choose me and have a go :p

What's fishy about the phrase 'Supreme Being', unless it's Posiedon of course.:D You can believe in any God you want, it can be the Abrahamic God, Vishnu, Odinn, whatever. No-one will ask you to qualify what you define as a Supreme Being, all that is important is that you beleive in one.

I don't know what you mean by "match power".:confused: No-one compares and contrasts Supreme Beings if thats what you mean.

[megafish33]

Another poster who thinks this forum is pro something just due to defending someone against abuse... :rolleyes:


Pretty much. lol If this site is pro-freemasonry then it's pro-religion, pro-newage, etc. lol

It's a free forum FFS.

[zero1]

I'll bet no-one here didn't already know most of that.
I don't know what you know so I started at the begining.

So, what's the money like? What Worshipful Master do I gotta blow to get a good deal for my business?
You can blow the Worshipful Master if you want but I doubt it would do anything for your business prospects. My lodge fees for a year are £73 and £150.

Why are low-level Masons like you on conspiracy websites?
We're all on the level, Mason or not. I'm on this website because I choose to be, I've had a good time so far talking about Masonry

Is it okay if my idea of the Supreme Being is myself?
That's a complex question and I'm no Theologist or expert on Deities. For what it's worth it's cool with me.;)

Does Lucifer give Christmas bonuses?
I haven't a clue.

Lol! Thanks for the forthright answers, @ least...:)

[kweli]

What's fishy about the phrase 'Supreme Being', unless it's Posiedon of course.:D You can believe in any God you want, it can be the Abrahamic God, Vishnu, Odinn, whatever. No-one will ask you to qualify what you define as a Supreme Being, all that is important is that you beleive in one.

I don't know what you mean by "match power".:confused: No-one compares and contrasts Supreme Beings if thats what you mean.

But why the need for a Supreme Being? What explanation do they give for this requirement.

I know in 12 Step groups (of which there must be hundreds of thousands) You are required to hand your will & your life over to a God of your own understanding, a Higher Power, it can be anything, as long as it's not yourself.

[perry_mason]

QUOTE=kweli: But why the need for a Supreme Being? What explanation do they give for this requirement.

Its a difficult question, open to much debate and speculation, but I'll give it a shot:

I feel one of the reasons for there being a requirment for a Supreme Being is partly because of the nature of the soceity which modern speculative Freemasonry grew out of. In 17/18th century England an outward belief in the Christian God was pretty much universal, society accepted as a given that there was a God. Freemasonry at that time provided a haven and common ground for people who did beleive in a Supreme Being, but were willing to ask questions and look at different interpretations of what SB was. So modern Freemasonry evolved requiring the belief in a SB but also acknowledging that this was something personnal and private that should be respected and not pried into; a man's God is his own. Freemasonry has moved with the times and there are now orders which accept atheists.

I'm sure there are many Masons out there who can give more detailed and concise answers and who would disagree with me on many things. Thats the problem, it's very hard to quantify as each Mason gets somthing different out of Masonry and has different ideas about their SB and why they believe in it.

[perry_mason]

Lol! Thanks for the forthright answers, @ least...:)

No problem. :)

[kweli]

QUOTE=kweli: But why the need for a Supreme Being? What explanation do they give for this requirement.

Its a difficult question, open to much debate and speculation, but I'll give it a shot:

I feel one of the reasons for there being a requirment for a Supreme Being is partly because of the nature of the soceity which modern speculative Freemasonry grew out of. In 17/18th century England an outward belief in the Christian God was pretty much universal, society accepted as a given that there was a God. Freemasonry at that time provided a haven and common ground for people who did beleive in a Supreme Being, but were willing to ask questions and look at different interpretations of what SB was. So modern Freemasonry evolved requiring the belief in a SB but also acknowledging that this was something personnal and private that should be respected and not pried into; a man's God is his own. Freemasonry has moved with the times and there are now orders which accept atheists.

I'm sure there are many Masons out there who can give more detailed and concise answers and who would disagree with me on many things. Thats the problem, it's very hard to quantify as each Mason gets somthing different out of Masonry and has different ideas about their SB and why they believe in it.

Thanks for your explanation; I understand that's just your view point. So back in the 16th/17th century, did they call the Supreme Being - God? or has it always been SB?

[thirdwave]

What's fishy about the phrase 'Supreme Being', unless it's Posiedon of course.:D You can believe in any God you want, it can be the Abrahamic God, Vishnu, Odinn, whatever. No-one will ask you to qualify what you define as a Supreme Being, all that is important is that you beleive in one.

I don't know what you mean by "match power".:confused: No-one compares and contrasts Supreme Beings if thats what you mean.


Why are Freemasons keeping secrets from us?, but still have the right to put there symbols on the money we get up for in the morning to work for??

Is it not all of our money???

If they have the right to make their mark on our British money then we have the right to know EXACTLY who they are and what they get up too... no secrets!

[perry_mason]

Thanks for your explanation; I understand that's just your view point. So back in the 16th/17th century, did they call the Supreme Being - God? or has it always been SB?

I'm not sure! I think it would have been God.
SB is currently used as a neutral term to encompass all Gods that individuals might beleive in, so that no one needs to elaborate. The same goes for GAOTU (Great Architect Of The Universe).

[perry_mason]

Why are Freemasons keeping secrets from us?, but still have the right to put there symbols on the money we get up for in the morning to work for??

Is it not all of our money???

If they have the right to make their mark on our British money then we have the right to know EXACTLY who they are and what they get up too... no secrets!

Why are Freemasons keeping secrets from us?, but still have the right to put there symbols on the money we get up for in the morning to work for??

The only secrets are the modes of recognition which are a matter of tradition. Anyway, these can be found easily on the web for those who care to look for them. Are you refering to the dollar or the pound when you're talking about symbols on money? If it's the pound I'm not aware of any Masonic markings on it, although I'm sure you'll elaborate. The dollar is another kettle of fish and although it does contain symbols used by modern Freemasons, they are not Masonic symbols per se. They are symbols that have been appropriated by some Masonic bodies over time and are actually much older than modern Masonry. Also the designer of the dollar was not a Freemason.

Is it not all of our money???
I'm not sure what you mean by this. It evidently is not all our money.

[kweli]

I'm not sure! I think it would have been God.
SB is currently used as a neutral term to encompass all Gods that individuals might beleive in, so that no one needs to elaborate. The same goes for GAOTU (Great Architect Of The Universe).

Thanks perry, I understand that part, it's quite similar to AA in that aspect. I suppose I can go and research the question myself, I just thought one of you guys might know. I'd also like to know, in what era they changed the wording, so to speak. Do you know where I might find this kind of information?

[limelady]

Wow!!

I log off and go to bed for the night, and wake up next morning to find
I am now promoting Freemasonry! :eek:

What a fun forum this is! :cool:

[perry_mason]

Thanks perry, I understand that part, it's quite similar to AA in that aspect. I suppose I can go and research the question myself, I just thought one of you guys might know. I'd also like to know, in what era they changed the wording, so to speak. Do you know where I might find this kind of information?

It's a pleasure, I'm sorry if it wasn't definitive enough. There's not really a 'party line' on the wording, any term such as God, Deity or SB can be used and they've probably been used interchangably since the wording and structure of English Masonry was de-Christianised* to an extent, at the beginning of the 19th Century when the United Grand Lodge was formed.

A great reference book on Freemasonry is "The Freemasons' Guide and Compendium" by Bernard E. Jones. It's a heavy book but well written and allows you to dig out the info you need. This should answer many questions on the origins, symbolism and structure etc. of Freemasonry.

*When I say de-Christianised I mean it was made more accesible in terms of terminology and wording to non-Christians and those that rightly felt it should have a more universal flavour. The ritual has always had an Old Testament setting.

[kblood]

Danish and swedish freemasonry still requires the joiner to be christian. Danish has 12 degrees. Swedish has either 10 or 12 degrees I think.

I guess I would prefer if it said you had to worship a SB instead of being christian, although I could pass for christian if I wanted to :) I am baptised and so on.

[perry_mason]

Danish and swedish freemasonry still requires the joiner to be christian. Danish has 12 degrees. Swedish has either 10 or 12 degrees I think.

I guess I would prefer if it said you had to worship a SB instead of being christian, although I could pass for christian if I wanted to :) I am baptised and so on.

Yeah, I think Swedish and Danish Freemasonry are one of the few exceptions when it comes to believing in a Supreme Being. Just goes to show how varied Masonry is and that it's not one centralised structure in an administrative sense.

[kblood]

Yeah, I think Swedish and Danish Freemasonry are one of the few exceptions when it comes to believing in a Supreme Being. Just goes to show how varied Masonry is and that it's not one centralised structure in an administrative sense.

Yup, I did think it was more centralised, but it seems that when you are member of one lodge, you can get a pass for other lodges as well. That seems to be as centralised as it gets, officially ;)

There arent even any meetings among the grand master masons... anyone know if there really isnt any meetings among grand master masons? You would think some of them at least, would meet each other.

[dangermouse]

I think its refreshing to get the points of view of Masons on all these topics. It seems the whole Masonic thing is exaggerated. All the masons here seem like pleasant and polite( unlike some of the posters here).

[steevo]

The corruption doesnt really matter when they talk nice and pleasant and oh so charming :rolleyes:

[perry_mason]

The corruption doesnt really matter when they talk nice and pleasant and oh so charming :rolleyes:

I'm glad you think I'm pleasant and charming Steevo! Seriously, if you have evidence of this corruption please post it on here and then to the police.

[steevo]

I'm glad you think I'm pleasant and charming Steevo! Seriously, if you have evidence of this corruption please post it on here and then to the police.

Very charming AND a piss taker :rolleyes::p. Tell the police, yeah RIGHT lol :D

[thirdwave]

Why are Freemasons keeping secrets from us?, but still have the right to put there symbols on the money we get up for in the morning to work for??

The only secrets are the modes of recognition which are a matter of tradition. they are not the only secrets and it does not matter ... you have no right to print on our money and hold a snippet of a secret from the country.... money Is Britsh .. for British citisens.... not for Fremasons..

Anyway, these can be found easily on the web for those who care to look for them.mYes there are many things that can be reviled about the Masons....

But you cant wriggle out of the fact that its a "secret scocitey"

which means its a scocity that has a secret. Of which case you are not going to come here and tell us it.... or if you are not high up the pecking order you don't even know much about it your self....

Are you refering to the dollar or the pound when you're talking about symbols on money?
Im talking about the £2 coin with the freemason symbol printed on it.

If it's the pound I'm not aware of any Masonic markings on it, although I'm sure you'll elaborate.
Im sure you will spot it
http://www.ukcoinpics.co.uk/dec2p.html


The dollar is another kettle of fish and although it does contain symbols used by modern Freemasons, they are not Masonic symbols per se.
Of course.... allthough anyone who does a bit more research would not agree.

They are symbols that have been appropriated by some Masonic bodies over time and are actually much older than modern Masonry. Also the designer of the dollar was not a Freemason. I think your reference to "modern Freemasonry" is really a case of not fully aniciated Freemasonry..


Is it not all of our money???
I'm not sure what you mean by this. It evidently is not all our money.

I mean the money is British.... and Britain represents the British people, not Freemasonry... and if it does then all British citizens should know the ins and outs of freemasonry.

[zero1]

Let not the David Icke forum turn into a bastion of praise and interest in Masonry. Please...:(

Bottom line: I DON'T LIKE ANY SECRET SOCIETY THAT I AM NOT A PART OF, HAVE NO VESTED INTEREST IN, AND CANNOT INFLUENCE THE AGENDA OF.

That is all. Thank you.

[perry_mason]

Yup, I did think it was more centralised, but it seems that when you are member of one lodge, you can get a pass for other lodges as well. That seems to be as centralised as it gets, officially ;)

There arent even any meetings among the grand master masons... anyone know if there really isnt any meetings among grand master masons? You would think some of them at least, would meet each other.

If you're a member of a lodge in one body eg: UGLE you can freely visit any other lodge in that body, there are about 9000 in UGLE. Some Grand Lodges don't recognise other GL's for various reasons, for example UGLE will not recognise bodies which claim to have political or religious motives. It also does not recognise women only and co-masonic bodies as visitation would be an issue (women masons could not visit a UGLE male lodge).

I'm not sure if the Grand Masters of each country/body meet up, I think there is some sort of conference where delegates or the GM congregate to talk about current issues in Masonry.

[meridiansun]

Let not the David Icke forum turn into a bastion of praise and interest in Masonry. Please...:(

I don't think there's much chance of that :D but it is good to hear the different view points in a civilized manner.

[perry_mason]

they are not the only secrets and it does not matter ... you have no right to print on our money and hold a snippet of a secret from the country.... money Is Britsh .. for British citisens.... not for Fremasons..

mYes there are many things that can be reviled about the Masons....

But you cant wriggle out of the fact that its a "secret scocitey"

which means its a scocity that has a secret. Of which case you are not going to come here and tell us it.... or if you are not high up the pecking order you don't even know much about it your self....

Im talking about the £2 coin with the freemason symbol printed on it.

Of course.... allthough anyone who does a bit more research would not agree.

I think your reference to "modern Freemasonry" is really a case of not fully aniciated Freemasonry..

I mean the money is British.... and Britain represents the British people, not Freemasonry... and if it does then all British citizens should know the ins and outs of freemasonry.

they are not the only secrets and it does not matter ... you have no right to print on our money and hold a snippet of a secret from the country.... money Is Britsh .. for British citisens.... not for Fremasons..

If you are in possession of these secrets please disclose them and provide evidence. If you are not privy to these secrets then how do you know they exist?

mYes there are many things that can be reviled about the Masons....

Ditto.

But you cant wriggle out of the fact that its a "secret scocitey"

If Freemasonry then how is secret then how do you know about it? The lodge rooms and buildings are open for you to visit, the ritual books are available on ebay etc. Freemasonry is a society with secrets, there is a difference.

Im talking about the £2 coin with the freemason symbol printed on it.

I take it you mean the one with St Paul's (I think) in the background and then various lines intersecting which do look a bit like a square and compass. But what advantage is there to putting somthing that looks a bit like a S&C on a limited edition coin, why would anyone do this?

I think your reference to "modern Freemasonry" is really a case of not fully aniciated Freemasonry..

No I mean modern 'speculative Masonry' as in the structure we have today, post enlightenment and roughly begining with the formation of the first Grand Lodge at the begining of the 18th C. This is as opposed to 'operative Masonry' as in a stonemason who built a cathedral in the 14th Century or who still works with stones today. Symbolism such as the all seeing eye and the S&C were appropriated by these speculative Masons in the 17/18 C as moral tools, allegorcial symbols which provide direction. These symbols date back millenia before this to Egypt.

I mean the money is British.... and Britain represents the British people, not Freemasonry... and if it does then all British citizens should know the ins and outs of freemasonry

This is a pretty odd argument. All I can say is that British citizens are perfectly welcome to look into Freemasonry and gain a greater understanding of it precepts: Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth.

[perry_mason]

Very charming AND a piss taker :rolleyes::p. Tell the police, yeah RIGHT lol :D

If you don't want to take it to the authorities then post it on here, like i said.

[steevo]

If you don't want to take it to the authorities then post it on here, like i said.

The proof is all around us. Your time is coming to an end.

[steevo]

Yes , I'm not as educated as you. I dont deal in fancy talk and charm, I just do what is right. Your proof that you want will come soon enough. And you will be among the people who will regret everything you have done. Keep being a freemason, that is the best way for us to round you up. It isnt gonna be the Jews or muslims or christians who are to blame it's the secret societies, they are the ones who are doing the damage, people like you at the very bottom of your little pyramid.

[perry_mason]

The proof is all around us. Your time is coming to an end.

Now I'm scared. :eek::eek:

So, in other words you have no actual proof, just rhetoric and conjecture.

[cheeney1]

this is my last post on this forum

thanks lime lady for showing me that this is site is pro masonry

Wheres Your Proof.......:rolleyes:
http://www.mckim.nescotland.co.uk/MWWhome_files/clock_image.jpg
Thats Right Here it is ,The Free Masons Can Even tell What Time It Is When They Log on And Off This Forum...........:rolleyes:

[perry_mason]

Yes , I'm not as educated as you. I dont deal in fancy talk and charm.

Sorry for bothering to check my spelling and grammar, that's obviously very snobbish of me. And at what point did I mention anything about education, I'm not surprised you've got a chip on your shoulder if you consider coherence and a respect for logic "fancy talk and charm".

[steevo]

Now I'm scared. :eek::eek:

So, in other words you have no actual proof, just rhetoric and conjecture.

Yes , I'm not as educated as you. I dont deal in fancy talk and charm, I just do what is right. Your proof that you want will come soon enough. And you will be among the people who will regret everything you have done. Keep being a freemason, that is the best way for us to round you up. It isnt gonna be the Jews or muslims or christians who are to blame it's the secret societies, they are the ones who are doing the damage, people like you at the very bottom of your little pyramid.

See above perry mason.

[cheeney1]

If you don't want to take it to the authorities then post it on here, like i said.


I Read somewhere That Every 1 in Four Top Policemen in England are Free Masons.......:eek:

[perry_mason]

I Read somewhere That Every 1 in Four Top Policemen in England are Free Masons.......:eek:

If thats the case, and I doubt there will be any proof that it is, then surely Steevo should hand it to one of the 3/4 who are not Freemasons, if he is worried that they would destroy the (non-existant) evidence.

[cheeney1]

If thats the case, and I doubt there will be any proof that it is, then surely Steevo should hand it to one of the 3/4 who are not Freemasons, if he is worried that they would destroy the (non-existant) evidence.


Did you Know Sir William Gull Was a Free Mason You Know who he was Don't you Physician To Queen Victoria but i wonder what he was MORE Famous For Eh.........And His Liston Surgical Knife.....:eek:

[perry_mason]

He is also famous for being a character in a number of fictional works about Jack the Ripper, for whom there a dozens of suspects.

There's also no evidence that he was a Freemason, well, apart from a comic book written hundred years after he died.

[cheeney1]

He is also famous for being a character in a number of fictional works about Jack the Ripper, for whom there a dozens of suspects.

No He Was The White Chapel Murderer none of the other suspects had surgical knowledge, Either a Butcher or a Surgeon Done It...

What about The Graffiti On the Wall The Juwes Are The men Who will not be blamed For Nothing Doesn't Juwes Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum who were murdered by Hiram Abif who were eventually found and ritually killed Got Something to do with Masonic Rituals of the Past.. Like Throat Cutting ....

[cheeney1]

Heres Some Info On FREEMASONS

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/freemasons.htm..;)

[perry_mason]

No He Was The White Chapel Murderer none of the other suspects had surgical knowledge, Either a Butcher or a Surgeon Done It...

What about The Graffiti On the Wall The Juwes Are The men Who will not be blamed For Nothing Doesn't Juwes Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum who were murdered by Hiram Abif who were eventually found and ritually killed Got Something to do with Masonic Rituals of the Past.. Like Throat Cutting ....

No He Was The White Chapel Murderer none of the other suspects had surgical knowledge, Either a Butcher or a Surgeon Done It...

You don't need surgical knowledge to stab and hack at someone.

What about The Graffiti On the Wall The Juwes Are The men Who will not be blamed For Nothing Doesn't Juwes Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum who were murdered by Hiram Abif who were eventually found and ritually killed Got Something to do with Masonic Rituals of the Past.. Like Throat Cutting

"The Juwes are..." can be interpreted in may different ways, some of which are anti-Masonic and anti-semetic. J,J and J were not murdered by HA, they murdered him, there's also no mention of them being ritually killed, just put to death for the heinous crimes- this also is a story. Any allusions to throat cutting past or present in the initiation have always been symbollic, emblamatic of how a Mason should feel if he were to ever disclose the secrets.

Oh, and thanks for that link, a few out of context Pike and Mackey quotes on a biased website, that will really change my opinion.

[thirdwave]

they are not the only secrets and it does not matter ... you have no right to print on our money and hold a snippet of a secret from the country.... money Is British .. for British citisens.... not for Fremasons..

If you are in possession of these secrets please disclose them and provide evidence. If you are not privy to these secrets then how do you know they exist?

Eeerrrr because its a "secret" society?

mYes there are many things that can be reviled about the Masons....

Ditto.
you are saying because you dont know the secrets... you cant say there are any.... :).... thats a bit of a cop out lol, that's how they have managed to stay so secret.


But you cant wriggle out of the fact that its a "secret scocitey"

If Freemasonry then how is secret then how do you know about it? The lodge rooms and buildings are open for you to visit, the ritual books are available on ebay etc. Freemasonry is a society with secrets, there is a difference.
Im sure there is plenty to read about it on Ebay..... but just because there is available knowledge it does not means its all the knowledge or in fact correct.

Its very clear that there are different levels of freemasonry.... that are worlds apart... Albert Pike reviled this and how the lower levels are held in ignorance.

Im talking about the £2 coin with the freemason symbol printed on it.

I take it you mean the one with St Paul's (I think) in the background and then various lines intersecting which do look a bit like a square and compass. But what advantage is there to putting somthing that looks a bit like a S&C on a limited edition coin, why would anyone do this?

have you not noticed how Freemasons like symboligy and to use it allot?




I think your reference to "modern Freemasonry" is really a case of not fully aniciated Freemasonry..

No I mean modern 'speculative Masonry' as in the structure we have today, post enlightenment and roughly begining with the formation of the first Grand Lodge at the begining of the 18th C. This is as opposed to 'operative Masonry' as in a stonemason who built a cathedral in the 14th Century or who still works with stones today. Symbolism such as the all seeing eye and the S&C were appropriated by these speculative Masons in the 17/18 C as moral tools, allegorcial symbols which provide direction. These symbols date back millenia before this to Egypt.
all well and good, what are you views on Albert Pike?

I mean the money is British.... and Britain represents the British people, not Freemasonry... and if it does then all British citizens should know the ins and outs of freemasonry

This is a pretty odd argument. All I can say is that British citizens are perfectly welcome to look into Freemasonry and gain a greater understanding of it precepts: Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth.

Im sure they are!, but I fail to see why Freemasonry has so much power. if it was so powerful and can be printed on coins... and has so many powerful people brought into it... then why is it not taught at school?

Why is it not openly apart of our culture?

reason being, is its about creating a divide of control.... a ladder.

You clearly do not understand what the agenda is as you are not involved in the higher degrees.

are you seriously saying that you don't think the Freemasons have any knowledge of the NWO??

[kblood]

The thing is, we cannot proove definately that there is a Illuminati like secret society that works within the freemason society... but freemasons cant proove that there isnt an Illuminati like secret society within the freemasons either.

There is alot of symbolic evidence that the masons is the Knights Templar, and Illuminati in one organisation, but it just isnt enough to proove it. The other way around, it is impossible to proove that something isnt there.

To find real proof about an organisation of this elite Illuminati NWO, we need to find good proof that freemasons internationally have meetings or ways of letting the agenda be known. It could be the symbolism they know so much about that is being used everywhere, but that isnt proof either. This symbolism is rather common by now, and Freemasons arent the only ones using these symbols. The OTO also does i.e.

Then we have the Bilderbergers, who seem to be the most openly pro Illuminati family around. Freemasons claim to have no official association with them, and that seems true, because no official association with them can be found. But is there an unnofficial association?

All I am sure of is that most masons doesnt know about it, even if they tried to. From what I have learned, they need to proove themself to the top Masons/Illuminati before they are enlightened about any of it. Im guessing there is in fact even 33 degree masons who are in the dark about it all, but being that high a degree, they ought to be able to find out about it I guess.

I have heard the Masons got secret books, not available in their libraries... anyone who can comment on this?

[the guy in pink]

Thats Right Here it is ,The Free Masons Can Even tell What Time It Is When They Log on And Off This Forum...........:rolleyes:

High Time Brothers?

[the guy in pink]

I have heard the Masons got secret books, not available in their libraries... anyone who can comment on this?

Our ritual books are available from most good book sellers. Some lodges do not allow any written ritual at all however. (GL Mississippi is one I think) I know of no other secret books.

[kblood]

Heres Some Info On FREEMASONS

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/freemasons.htm..;)

That is a nice link :) Lots of names and insights into masonry, at least how it was back then, but also just 15 years ago.

My guess is they have found new ways of hiding their secrets, since killing obviously backfired on them.

[perry_mason]

Eeerrrr because its a "secret" society?

OK, so you have no evidence and you have no ideas of that they may be.
No evidence+no theory= no secrets. Hows that for cold logic?

you are saying because you dont know the secrets... you cant say there are any.... .... thats a bit of a cop out lol, that's how they have managed to stay so secret.

I do know the secrets: the modes of recognition, I am also the highest acknowledged degree there is: 3'. All the other degrees going to 32' are for appendent orders, the 33' degree is honouary and bestowed upon people for the work they have done for Masonry ie; charity work.

but just because there is available knowledge it does not means its all the knowledge or in fact correct.

I would apply this theory to many of the websites and books you have read, including those of a certain author.

Its very clear that there are different levels of freemasonry.... that are worlds apart... Albert Pike reviled this and how the lower levels are held in ignorance. what are you views on Albert Pike?

There are 33' degrees, and thats it. We all meet in the same rooms and talk openly with each other. Albert Pike was one man conveying his opinion on Freemasonry in a highly symbolic and philosophical style, most Freemasons around the world have never heard of him and have no inclination to read the epic tome that is Morals and Dogma. No one person speaks for Freemasonry M&D was simply his opinion and is written with extensive use of symbolism and archaic language. M&D is not the seminal text on Freemasonry there are many other bools written by Masons and non-Masons which will give a much more black and white insight into the Craft. Again I'd apply your previous statement to the works of Pike or any author.

have you not noticed how Freemasons like symboligy and to use it allot?

Yes, of course I have, Freemasonry is full of images and symbols and these are open to interpretation. Many if not all of the images and symbols used date back before speculative Freemasonry and have been given new interpretations.

I fail to see why Freemasonry has so much power. if it was so powerful and can be printed on coins... and has so many powerful people brought into it... then why is it not taught at school? Why is it not openly apart of our culture?

The simple answer is it doesn't, UGLE Freemasonry has no political or religious standpoint, however many Masons I'm sure do and that's the difference. Mason's will constantly disagree with each other about politics and religion, thats why we don't discuss them in lodge. There is no party line or overall goal. Powerful people may join of their own free will if they so choose, they are not recruited.
Freemasonry is part of our culture, just look at some of the Masonic Halls which you are free to visit. As for teaching it in schools that is quite ridiculous. Masonry is something that an individual should come to of their own decision, not be swayed by a teacher or a person in a position of control. Perhaps the toleration and egalitarianism of Freemasonry could be more properley stressed in schools, but not Freemasonry itself.

reason being, is its about creating a divide of control.... a ladder.
You clearly do not understand what the agenda is as you are not involved in the higher degrees.

I've allready explained about these. There is no agenda.

are you seriously saying that you don't think the Freemasons have any knowledge of the NWO??

From the looks of this site the NWO consists of whoever one person has an axe to grind against and there appears to be no consensus of who they are: Jews? Lizards? Illuminatus? Bush? I'm sure many individual Freemasons have thoughts about Golbalisation, the expansion of the EU, Anglo/US foreign policy etc. etc. if these fall under the umbrella of the NWO, but these thoughts are there own and do not speak for Masonry.

[cheeney1]

No He Was The White Chapel Murderer none of the other suspects had surgical knowledge, Either a Butcher or a Surgeon Done It...

You don't need surgical knowledge to stab and hack at someone.

What about The Graffiti On the Wall The Juwes Are The men Who will not be blamed For Nothing Doesn't Juwes Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum who were murdered by Hiram Abif who were eventually found and ritually killed Got Something to do with Masonic Rituals of the Past.. Like Throat Cutting

"The Juwes are..." can be interpreted in may different ways, some of which are anti-Masonic and anti-semetic. J,J and J were not murdered by HA, they murdered him, there's also no mention of them being ritually killed, just put to death for the heinous crimes- this also is a story. Any allusions to throat cutting past or present in the initiation have always been symbollic, emblamatic of how a Mason should feel if he were to ever disclose the secrets.

Oh, and thanks for that link, a few out of context Pike and Mackey quotes on a biased website, that will really change my opinion.

thats alright the links pretty cool eh........:rolleyes:
we chased all the freemasons out of town with pitchforks sort of like lynch mob yeah good ole fun.........just kidding...;)

[critical_analysis]

OK, so you have no evidence and you have no ideas of that they may be.
No evidence+no theory= no secrets. Hows that for cold logic?

LOL are you now claiming there are no secrets? Many of your brethren on this site have already admitted that there are secrets so this can only be regarded as an outright lie.



There are 33' degrees, and thats it. We all meet in the same rooms and talk openly with each other. Albert Pike was one man conveying his opinion on Freemasonry in a highly symbolic and philosophical style, most Freemasons around the world have never heard of him and have no inclination to read the epic tome that is Morals and Dogma.


Albert Pike was indeed one man and so are you. He was a 33rd Degree mason wasn’t he? Are you a 33rd Degree Mason?
If not I would suggest that perhaps he knows more about masonry than you do.
Equally you not being a 33rd degree mason and not knowing about any higher degrees or the true nature of your organisation ties in perfectly with what he stated.


The simple answer is it doesn't, UGLE Freemasonry has no political or religious standpoint, however many Masons I'm sure do and that's the difference. Mason's will constantly disagree with each other about politics and religion, thats why we don't discuss them in lodge. There is no party line or overall goal. Powerful people may join of their own free will if they so choose, they are not recruited.



Yes I am sure that is true, though I suspect that a very high percentage of masons are the sons/nephews/cousins of masons that came before them.
So while not obviously recruiting powerful people into your ranks you are still ensuring that powerful/useful families/people find their way in.
Also if we are to believe what everyone who is not mason seem of think of masons this would create a cycle in which those with power are masons and those that are masons maintain power.

It seems to me that the masons on this site are always challenging people to tell them how it works and what they are doing. There is a good reason why no-one can actually do this in black and white.
I would imagine you operate a system that does not exist in black and white. While I cannot claim to have intimate knowledge of freemasonry, if I was to create a secret organisation with the intention of controlling the nation I would ensure that a key ingredient is subtlety. You would not find any rules and regulations relating to the techniques involved. You would not find details of the end goal. You would only have thousands of pieces of a jigsaw puzzle, which in themselves are meaningless and only create a meaningful picture when all put together in the correct order. I would also ensure that the complete picture is far from understood until a member is fully integrated and trusted.

For me I read the situation in quite a simple way.
Masons want us to believe that the fact that so many powerful people are masons and the fact that its hand is visible throughout our society (bank notes, buildings etc) is nothing more than coincidence. Personally I don’t believe in coincidences ;)

[kblood]

Perry, you say you are sure there is no agenda... because you cant be sure. You can disagree with the theory about it at best.

You dont know what is going on in all the lodges around the world, or if there is some secret degrees beyond the 33rd degree. Heck, you cant even say for sure what the 33rd degree is about, because they can talk all they want about the honary degree, but you really cannot know for sure if they are in fact saying all there is to say.

At the same time, we cannot prove that there is an agenda, only point all the places that makes it seem likely, while you can point out all the stuff that makes it seem unlikely.

[perry_mason]

Perry, you say you are sure there is no agenda... because you cant be sure. You can disagree with the theory about it at best.

You dont know what is going on in all the lodges around the world, or if there is some secret degrees beyond the 33rd degree. Heck, you cant even say for sure what the 33rd degree is about, because they can talk all they want about the honary degree, but you really cannot know for sure if they are in fact saying all there is to say.

At the same time, we cannot prove that there is an agenda, only point all the places that makes it seem likely, while you can point out all the stuff that makes it seem unlikely.

I can't prove that certain Masons don't have their own beliefs, agendas, political and religious views, what I'm trying to say is that there's no global agenda for Freemasonry as a concept.

[perry_mason]

Critical analysis:

"OK, so you have no evidence and you have no ideas of that they may be.
No evidence+no theory= no secrets. Hows that for cold logic?"

That quote is taken out of context, I was dicussing with thirdwave secrets beyond the modes of recognition eg some supposed conspiracy, philosophers stone or satanic soiree.

I'm sure that Albert Pike did know a lot more about Masonry than I do and also other esoteric areas. I've already stated them I'm not a 33rd degree Mason and that there are no secrets apart from the modes of recognition, which can be found on the interent anyway for those who are interested.

Don't just take one mans word for gospel whether it's me, Bill down the pub, Pike or Icke. That's what I meant by him being just one man, there are dozens of opinions on Masonry. I'm not trying to convert anyone, your all entitled to your views, I and others are just trying to show the other side of the story.

[kblood]

I can't prove that certain Masons don't have their own beliefs, agendas, political and religious views, what I'm trying to say is that there's no global agenda for Freemasonry as a concept.

I guess I agree on that. The concept is for the NWO to be a global agenda, but Freemasonry in this conspiracy theory is a tool to make it possible. And the theory says that it is unknown to most Freemasons, kept secret from them, untill they have proven worthy of knowing about it, and proven to be someone who isnt going to tell anyone about it. Being worthy to know about it, I guess that is that the mason who gets to know about it, has to show that he already follows the same beliefs and is of the conviction of these secret agendas.

But it isnt said wether it is only a few lodges that even has anything of this at their top levels at all, or if it is only a few select ones. Point is, unless you have had all masons taking a sit in a chair that should be able to see wether or not they are lying, and ask them all about the secrets they might have, unless that is done you wont really know for sure wether it is there or not.

[perry_mason]

I guess I agree on that. The concept is for the NWO to be a global agenda, but Freemasonry in this conspiracy theory is a tool to make it possible. And the theory says that it is unknown to most Freemasons, kept secret from them, untill they have proven worthy of knowing about it, and proven to be someone who isnt going to tell anyone about it. Being worthy to know about it, I guess that is that the mason who gets to know about it, has to show that he already follows the same beliefs and is of the conviction of these secret agendas.

But it isnt said wether it is only a few lodges that even has anything of this at their top levels at all, or if it is only a few select ones. Point is, unless you have had all masons taking a sit in a chair that should be able to see wether or not they are lying, and ask them all about the secrets they might have, unless that is done you wont really know for sure wether it is there or not.

We can only speculate.:)
Evidence would be nice but we've been down that road.;)

[kblood]

We can only speculate.:)
Evidence would be nice but we've been down that road.;)

Yea, I have to say that most evidence does point towards masons not being part of any NWO agenda, at least the evidence available without alot of research, but since that the evidence is to be secret, then it would be kind of sloppy if you could find it by googling :D

Also, we need to have some conspiracies to research. Whats the fun in there being no conspiracies? Especially if its none that are global?

By the way, as another Mason said, then Icke actually describes his belief in the Illuminati as a theory or kind of description. Its not a organisation with people that would know or think they are part of the Illuminati. The elite as many of us call it as well, is simply the people with power, and wants more power, and therefore follows the power structure in the world.

This then sums up to be Illuminati. All those in power, are likely to want a world government, where power is centralised. Look at the world today: EU gaining power and influence, WTO, NSA... we are becomming a NWO more and more each day, with power getting centralised more and more.

That is the heart of the NWO theory, but also that there are people who promotes it because they want the power that it will give them.

[the guy in pink]

:D
Also, we need to have some conspiracies to research. Whats the fun in there being no conspiracies? Especially if its none that are global?

Here is a link to conspircy thats loads of fun then :D:D
Well researched too.!
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=af07

[mike martin]

Yes, he ended up inside for the crimes he committed and rightly so. So far he's still bieng rejected for parole.

BY MASONIC Judges if Joe Stirling and 2nd Family is to be believed.

Oh the irony!!

Mike

[tinmenace]

thanks lime lady for showing me that this is site is pro masonry


:eek:

[3ill]

Y'know, It's funny to watch people who consider themselves so above Freemasonry be made to run round in circles by them. Seriously, this whole conversation is going on? Nothing better to do with your lives? No want or desire to expand your knowledge with the wealth of information at your fingertips? Rather continue to spin a futile argument with a few lower level masons? Have fun with it. Your all so enlightened. And keep going, you're all right on the cusp of convincing these guys. Seriously, your at the tipping point.

Chime in to the Mason's for a sec: Thanks for the laugh. A some of us are reasonable, just have our own interests, as you do yours. I'm sure I'll be outed as a "Mason Lover" or "Disinfo" for speaking to you like your, yknow, a human being, so that'll be a chuckle. Personally, while the scandalous stuff is always titilating, I've always been more interested in the 'nature of reality' and 'infinite consciousness' bits of Icke's writing, as it's applied and broadened concepts I've thought about since I was a kid. Hell, a few of you would probably even dig those aspects. It's unfortunate they're usually overlooked for the 'soundbite' version. Don't get me wrong, Even the reptilian stuff intigues me, but beneath that is alot more stuff I'm interested in as it applies to my art, such as the origin of symbols, the origins of religions and the symbology inherit withing them.

Oh, and the twat that started all this trouble on your forums, I hope you don't take him as a representation of everyone in this community. The people here are as diverse as I'm sure your org is.

Peace,
3!LL

[perry_mason]

Also, we need to have some conspiracies to research. Whats the fun in there being no conspiracies? Especially if its none that are global?

I agree with you on that kblood, conspiracy theories are fun and a good laugh, as long they don't get too muddled up with reality. :D

[zero1]

I agree with you on that kblood, conspiracy theories are fun and a good laugh, as long they don't get too muddled up with reality. :D

Poisonous lie, said with a big grin...

Lemme ask you some questions:

Do you think this world operates and churns over on pure chance and blind fate or something? Do you NOT think there are men who make decisions about the direction of global culture without recourse to a polictical mandate from ordinary people to do so? Do you NOT think that secret societies exist? Do you NOT think that if YOU had fantastical resources and wealth to make and remake the world as you saw fit, that you would NOT conspire with others in your circle of associates to consolidate that power and enforce you own will, without regard for the will of others?

Seriously...please. Answer, if you can.

It's ALL conspiracy, dude. Traditionally, that's how things get done in this world and History is written by those who can most successfully keep secrets, conceal their true aims and destroy opposition to them. Okay?

Now please, pretty please with pink cherries on top: don't talk to others about Reality when you're inured in illusion...:(

[kblood]

Poisonous lie, said with a big grin...

Lemme ask you some questions:

Do you think this world operates and churns over on pure chance and blind fate or something? Do you NOT think there are men who make decisions about the direction of global culture without recourse to a polictical mandate from ordinary people to do so? Do you NOT think that secret societies exist? Do you NOT think that if YOU had fantastical resources and wealth to make and remake the world as you saw fit, that you would NOT conspire with others in your circle of associates to consolidate that power and enforce you own will, without regard for the will of others?

Seriously...please. Answer, if you can.

It's ALL conspiracy, dude. Traditionally, that's how things get done in this world and History is written by those who can most successfully keep secrets, conceal their true aims and destroy opposition to them. Okay?

Now please, pretty please with pink cherries on top: don't talk to others about Reality when you're inured in illusion...:(

Yes, wether there is a true Illuminati or not, there will be NWO like organisations without doubt. Some might do it with good intent, and others would do it to make it better for themselves, and might just try to make it good for everyone if it served his or hers own purpose.

When it comes to big organisations with great power, there is also alot of temptation. It seems naive to believe that they all manage to resist the temptation to use that power for personell gain rather than what is best for everyone. Too many live by the belief that for some to gain others have to suffer.

[jacob sladder]

There may (or may not) be shady cabals working behind the scenes manipulating world events. But why would they go through all the rigmarole of Freemasonry - Rituals, Charity, Meals etc. etc?

Such organisations would have no need of such a society. They would meet discretely (possibly like the Bilderbergers) in a hotel / country house away from view.

Looking at Freemasonry as a manipulator of world events is, I feel, searching in the wrong area.

Perhaps it prevents people searching the right areas to scrutinise by wasting their time and resources worrying about 'The Masons'.

[perry_mason]

Poisonous lie, said with a big grin...

Lemme ask you some questions:

Do you think this world operates and churns over on pure chance and blind fate or something? Do you NOT think there are men who make decisions about the direction of global culture without recourse to a polictical mandate from ordinary people to do so? Do you NOT think that secret societies exist? Do you NOT think that if YOU had fantastical resources and wealth to make and remake the world as you saw fit, that you would NOT conspire with others in your circle of associates to consolidate that power and enforce you own will, without regard for the will of others?

Seriously...please. Answer, if you can.

It's ALL conspiracy, dude. Traditionally, that's how things get done in this world and History is written by those who can most successfully keep secrets, conceal their true aims and destroy opposition to them. Okay?

Now please, pretty please with pink cherries on top: don't talk to others about Reality when you're inured in illusion...:(

Poisonous lie, said with a big grin...

I was being serious, I find conspiracy theories interesting and good fun. But in my opinion it usually stops there. Why on earth would I lie about the fact that I like to read conspiracy theories, I just make sure my life doesn't revolve around them. I like to read a good Stephen King or Neal Stephenson also, am I lying to you about that?

Lemme ask you some questions:

Do you think this world operates and churns over on pure chance and blind fate or something? Do you NOT think there are men who make decisions about the direction of global culture without recourse to a polictical mandate from ordinary people to do so? Do you NOT think that secret societies exist? Do you NOT think that if YOU had fantastical resources and wealth to make and remake the world as you saw fit, that you would NOT conspire with others in your circle of associates to consolidate that power and enforce you own will, without regard for the will of others?

I believe in Free Will and doing everything you can to make the world a better place. I am sure some things happen by chance or bad luck, it is not always someone else's fault, this I believe is why many conspiracy theories exist, people sometimes need to realise that life can be a bit shit at times, for some people it can be shit all the time: realise this and do something about it (not necessarily you personally).

I am sure there are people who do act without a political mandate ie: the EU reform treaty, Gordon Brown is not elected. This has nothing to do with Freemasonry as a concept.

We've all played the game "If I had all the money in the world, what would I do?". In my heart of hearts I know I would do my best to use this money for good and to help those in need, whomever they are. I'd use the money to try and make the world a better place for everyone, not just for my own little cabal. I am sure there are people who would want to rule the world in secrecy from an island fortress, I don't doubt that for a second. Whether anyone is doing that now I don't know, but I also haven't seen any evidence that proves they are.
I hope you can take my word on this. May I ask what you would do with 'all the power in the world', so to speak?

It's ALL conspiracy, dude. Traditionally, that's how things get done in this world and History is written by those who can most successfully keep secrets, conceal their true aims and destroy opposition to them. Okay?

I believe a successful conspiracy would not have thousands of people trying to 'out' it on the net and in TRW, nor would it allow authors to make fortunes flogging books, videos and internet subscriptions 'revealing' this immense cabal.

[synergy777]

the truth is lower level masons are just useful idiots for the elite, they too are expendable, lol

also have you heard the afrocentric version of history, those lambskin aprons are according to some, the cloths you wore when being expelled from the middle east.

even malcolm x spoke of this. they call it the shriner ceremony.

mr mason is this true.

[perry_mason]

the truth is lower level masons are just useful idiots for the elite, they too are expendable, lol

also have you heard the afrocentric version of history, those lambskin aprons are according to some, the cloths you wore when being expelled from the middle east.

even malcolm x spoke of this. they call it the shriner ceremony.

mr mason is this true.

the truth is lower level masons are just useful idiots for the elite, they too are expendable, lol

And a good morning to you too good sir! I'm glad you know the truth, please provide documentation proving your hypothesis so I can burn my Grand Lodge Certificate and change my avatar.

also have you heard the afrocentric version of history, those lambskin aprons are according to some, the cloths you wore when being expelled from the middle east.

even malcolm x spoke of this. they call it the shriner ceremony.

mr mason is this true.

I don't know if this is true. The apron is open to symbolic interpretation and like many things can mean different things to different people. The main explanation in my opinion behind the apron is that it is a link to the operative Stonemasons from which Freemasonry as we know it evolved. There are of course many other explanations and interpretations for the white lambskin.

When you say 'they call it the shriner ceremony' do you mean the Nation of Islam call it that are just people in general?

[synergy777]

no offence sir, if they sacrifice politicians, scientists etc, then to be frank, masons are way down the foodchain, aren't we sir.

dr kelly, robin cook, jfk, spitzer, wellstone, etc

[red_ram]

Y'know, It's funny to watch people who consider themselves so above Freemasonry be made to run round in circles by them. Seriously, this whole conversation is going on? Nothing better to do with your lives? No want or desire to expand your knowledge with the wealth of information at your fingertips? Rather continue to spin a futile argument with a few lower level masons? Have fun with it. Your all so enlightened. And keep going, you're all right on the cusp of convincing these guys. Seriously, your at the tipping point.

Chime in to the Mason's for a sec: Thanks for the laugh. A some of us are reasonable, just have our own interests, as you do yours. I'm sure I'll be outed as a "Mason Lover" or "Disinfo" for speaking to you like your, yknow, a human being, so that'll be a chuckle. Personally, while the scandalous stuff is always titilating, I've always been more interested in the 'nature of reality' and 'infinite consciousness' bits of Icke's writing, as it's applied and broadened concepts I've thought about since I was a kid. Hell, a few of you would probably even dig those aspects. It's unfortunate they're usually overlooked for the 'soundbite' version. Don't get me wrong, Even the reptilian stuff intigues me, but beneath that is alot more stuff I'm interested in as it applies to my art, such as the origin of symbols, the origins of religions and the symbology inherit withing them.

Oh, and the twat that started all this trouble on your forums, I hope you don't take him as a representation of everyone in this community. The people here are as diverse as I'm sure your org is.

Peace,
3!LL

+1

[perry_mason]

no offence sir, if they sacrifice politicians, scientists etc, then to be frank, masons are way down the foodchain, aren't we sir.

dr kelly, robin cook, jfk, spitzer, wellstone, etc

No-ones tried to take a bite out of me yet and they'd have a fight on if they tried. :mad:

Do you have any more dead men men or women you'd like to blame Freemasonry on without actually having any proof? What about the Dinosaurs? The fall of the Roman Empire? The Norman conquest of Britain? Were these all Masonic conspiracies also?

[synergy777]

the fact is after basic research everyone knows the lower levels are oblivous to the higher degress and their true purpose. its called covert control, only the select few of lower masons get the chance to get the higher ranks and thus the real knowledge.

although if they read albert pike's book morals and dogma, and read his letter to mazzini, then they might wake up, pearls before masonic swine etc, lol

[synergy777]

i will take the normans, another edition to the gene pool of this fair isle, which always gives great one amusement, especially when the masses voice their dislike of the french, well you are family, lol

although the mormans were settled in the north france, so i guess a selective gene pool. in fact it was common after the conquest for the english elite to speak french, whilst the commoners spoke olde english. hence the great love of the french and all things french displayed the elite of this country, well sarkozy, he has got himself a lovely piece of crumpet, or tarte, lol

personally the people of this country are seperate from the german/french elite of this country.

[cheeney1]

No-ones tried to take a bite out of me yet and they'd have a fight on if they tried. :mad:

Do you have any more dead men men or women you'd like to blame Freemasonry on without actually having any proof? What about the Dinosaurs? The fall of the Roman Empire? The Norman conquest of Britain? Were these all Masonic conspiracies also?


Settle Kettle....... I wouldn't want to take a bite out of you.....and why do you want to fight anyone ...:D You'd have a long way to travel if you wanted to Fight Me.....;)

[synergy777]

what proper mason would waste his time on a forum like this, please, you are no more a mason than i am the king of arabia. you are a cyber walter mitty, however you are entertaining, lol

[perry_mason]

Pike is one Mason, writing over a hundred years ago about his opinion of Freemasonry, he was a distinguished Freemason in his time and doubtless new a lot about Masonry. However, this does not make M&D, dense symbolist tome that it is, the be all and end all of Masonry, there are many other appraisals of Freemasonry which always seem to get overlooked in favour of one or two choice slices of Pike, usually taken out of context. Pike is not the definitive oevre on Masonry. It is one Man's opinion.

You say "after basic research". That is my point.

i will take the normans, another edition to the gene pool of this fair isle, which always gives great one amusement, especially when the masses voice their dislike of the french, well you are family, lol

although the mormans were settled in the north france, so i guess a selective gene pool. in fact it was common after the conquest for the english elite to speak french, whilst the commoners spoke olde english. hence the great love of the french and all things french displayed the elite of this country, well sarkozy, he has got himself a lovely piece of crumpet, or tarte, lol

I would say we are all family.

The Normans were descended from Scandinavian 'vikings' and when the Normans supplanted Anglo-Saxon/Norse barons such as in the Harrying of the North, that was all they did, although the ruling classes did speak Norman French they didn't destroy the culture of the culture. The peasant classes (those of which were still alive) were still able to thrive and continue to develop an Anglo-Saxon culture, hence the proliferation of AS and Norse place names and words for example. Over time the two have melded together with countless other influences to produce the country we have today. We're all the better for it as well in my opinion.

When you speak of 'the masses' do you consider yourself enlightened or above the general population of the country?

[perry_mason]

Settle Kettle....... I wouldn't want to take a bite out of you.....and why do you want to fight anyone ...:D You'd have a long way to travel if you wanted to Fight Me.....;)

I was just joking around Cheeny, I don't want to fight anyone!:eek: Besides, from your avatar you look like one tough son of a gun. :D

[synergy777]

i am of the people, always will be.

are you?

[perry_mason]

what proper mason would waste his time on a forum like this, please, you are no more a mason than i am the king of arabia. you are a cyber walter mitty, however you are entertaining, lol

I'm sorry if my insistence on evidence and actual facts has led you to believe I'm not a Mason, I'm 'wasting my time' on this forum because I like a good discussion and I don't have to be up early in the morning. Masons have varied interests, as would any cross section of society, why would discussion on the internet lead me to not be a Mason?

i am of the people, always will be. are you?

Definitely, and because of that I don't refer to the general population as 'the masses'.

[synergy777]

would the work of albert pike, be classified as fact?

[perry_mason]

would the work of albert pike, be classified as fact?

I would class it as opinion. But that is my opinion.

[synergy777]

you realise the role of albert pike in freemasonry don't you?

[perry_mason]

you realise the role of albert pike in freemasonry don't you?

He was head of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction in the USA, although I'm sure you have a different opinion.

Also, if I'm Walter Mitty then you must be Don Quixote: fighting crusades against enemies that are at best unproved and at worst utterly non-existent.

[cheeney1]

This Is General Nathan Forrest


http://ngeorgia.com/images/nbforr.gif

Who Was Well Known To General Albert Pike FreeMason 33rd Degree
http://www.bibleprobe.com/Pike03.jpg

And TOgether They Formed, This Society THE KKK
Heres a Something to look at...http://itwasjohnson.impiousdigest.com/fox.htmhttp://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/kkk_1925.jpg

[3ill]

+1

Glad someone digs the perspective.

3!LL

[kblood]

He was head of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction in the USA, although I'm sure you have a different opinion.

Also, if I'm Walter Mitty then you must be Don Quixote: fighting crusades against enemies that are at best unproved and at worst utterly non-existent.

Well... Isnt the Masonic best answer against what Albert Pike wrote about freemasonry... "He was wrong.", "It was his oppinion, not facts." and same goes for the... must be hundreds of exposing the masons books.

So you see why it doesnt really seem enough for us that people like Albert Pike are just said to have been wrong? If so then why have people been comming forward with secrets that contradicts it the last 200 years?

So although there have been many good attempts at disproving it all, it just havent been good enough yet. Albert Pike was said to have changed his oppinion later, and that he was wrong about the stuff he wrote in his book. But he didnt write anohter book making up for the mistakes? Masons still use and highly regard this flawed book?

[perry_mason]

Well... Isnt the Masonic best answer against what Albert Pike wrote about freemasonry... "He was wrong.", "It was his oppinion, not facts." and same goes for the... must be hundreds of exposing the masons books.

So you see why it doesnt really seem enough for us that people like Albert Pike are just said to have been wrong? If so then why have people been comming forward with secrets that contradicts it the last 200 years?

So although there have been many good attempts at disproving it all, it just havent been good enough yet. Albert Pike was said to have changed his oppinion later, and that he was wrong about the stuff he wrote in his book. But he didnt write anohter book making up for the mistakes? Masons still use and highly regard this flawed book?

I never said Pike was wrong or attempted to disprove him. Just that his is one view on Masonry and that it is often selectively quoted and misrepresented to prove certain peoples points. The writing is quite flowery and symbolic IMHO and can be interpreted differently.

I'm sure there are Masons who will give M&D a read, including myself, but it is at the very the end of the esoteric spectrum of my reading list and I have lots of other books Masonic and non-Masonic to get through before I die.

[mike martin]

the fact is after basic research everyone knows the lower levels are oblivous to the higher degress and their true purpose. its called covert control, only the select few of lower masons get the chance to get the higher ranks and thus the real knowledge.

I would suggest to you that any research that you have carried it so far is seriously flawed. Also if you have read the posts that the handful of Masons who have joined this Forum have written we are all fully aware of the Degree structure regardless of the Degree held which Orders we belong to so far.I have been invited to join every Order (including clandestine ones) that we have but choose ot to they are not necessary to be a Freemason and as I tell every new Initiate to my Lodges, the Degree of Master Mason is the highest all the others are just extras.

The problem with your research to date is that you have not accessed any pure un-edited Masonic sources, all you have had has been tailored by a third party who wants you to come to a certain conclusion.

although if they read albert pike's book morals and dogma, and read his letter to mazzini, then they might wake up, pearls before masonic swine etc, lol

Here you are making perfect sense, I have read Morals and Dogma, twice, I'm looking at my copy on the bookshelf as I write this. However, if you had (rather than the tiny little exceprts your pushers have chosen to share with you) you would know that it does not push the agendas or do the things you think it does.
The letter to Mazzini is a fake, so not worthy of consideration.

I would say why don't you read Morals and Dogma, all of it, and then see what you think.

Mike

[perry_mason]

This Is General Nathan Forrest

Who Was Well Known To General Albert Pike FreeMason 33rd Degree

And TOgether They Formed, This Society THE KKK
Heres a Something to look at...http://itwasjohnson.impiousdigest.com/fox.htm

I've heard the KKK rumours before. That site does not cite any references either. If Pike was a member of the KKK then this would for me IMHO go a way to discrediting his status as a Masonic author and suggest that thing's perhaps weren't ticking over properly inside that white sheet.

Again, this man is not Freemasonry.

[kblood]

I've heard the KKK rumours before. That site does not cite any references either. If Pike was a member of the KKK then this would for me IMHO go a way to discrediting his status as a Masonic author and suggest that thing's perhaps weren't ticking over properly inside that white sheet.

Again, this man is not Freemasonry.

Yes, its easy to just claim no associasation with all the masons that doesnt follow the way the Masons officially are supposed to be.

Still he was allowed into the Freemasons, and as a 33rd degree Mason, and he had supporters within Freemasonry. Apparently more than one, and at least one other 33rd degree mason.

[mike martin]

what proper mason would waste his time on a forum like this, please, you are no more a mason than i am the king of arabia. you are a cyber walter mitty, however you are entertaining, lol

I think that you would be suprised by the fact that we are just normal people with a past-time that's different to yours.

Mike

[mike martin]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS]And TOgether They Formed, This Society THE KKK

Hmmm.. so Pike founded the KKK did he?

From http://www.masonicinfo.com/kkk.htm
One of the more common tactics of deceit used by anti-Masons is the charge that Albert Pike - known for his leadership in the late 1800's of Scottish Rite Masonry in the Southern (US) Jurisdiction - founded or was a founder of the Ku Klux Klan.

What they fail to mention, however, is that the Klan began in 1866-7 and was "founded" by 6 young men, veterans of the Confederate cause, but whose motives were unclear: whether it was some kind of racist joke or a true racist group. In 1869, Grand Wizard Nathan B. Forrest* disbanded the organization because it had become uncontrollable. It wasn't until 1915 (well after Pike's death in 1891) that the Klan in its second form reappeared. That group was bankrupted by the U. S. Government in the 1940s and the racist group which exists today has only the connection of a name similarity to the original group.

Many anti-Masons also ignore the fact that Pike was so well respected by the United States that a major statue of him sits in Judiciary Square in Washington, DC today. Although he, like so many other Confederate military officers, was initially charged with Treason, those charges were dropped and today, his statue is the only one of a Confederate General in Washington! (Some, of course, will use this fact as fodder for their belief in the 'Great Masonic Conspiracy' theory....)

After the Civil War, the United States remained philosophically divided. Those who fought on the Confederate side felt wronged and betrayed. Despite the actions of the Union toward reconciliation, they were disenfranchised and angry. Many organizations such as the KKK were founded in the South at this time and many prominent citizens chose membership. To single out Pike for this is not only silly but ignorant of the circumstances of history.

It is also interesting to note that there is no mention of Pike whatsoever in the various contemporaneous Congressional hearings - a fact that seems highly peculiar if there was any suspicion at all that Pike might have been the Klan's Chief Judicial Officer as some have claimed.

Particularly in light of Pike's extensive work with and support of the American Indian (another group which engendered strong feelings of hate at that time), it is false to claim that Pike would be involved in the subjugation of ANY person.

Suffice it to say: when the Ku Klux Klan appeared in its present form, Albert Pike had been dead for some 24 years!

Here's some balance to what you've all been fed about Pike so far:
http://www.masonicinfo.com/pike.htm
http://www.masonicinfo.com/pikestatue.htm

Mike

[celtic isis]

Thats not true at all. Just because people are not abusing the masons on here doesnt mean we support anything/everything they are about! I thought we were conversing with them to learn about them and what they get up to.:rolleyes:

well said manchurian candidate :)

How can this site be pro freemasonry? That's one thing i never got from this site lol that is for SURE

I'm getting fed up of this now, the davidicke forum is pro this, pro that...look it's just a place for a natter, sharing info, sharing experiences etc, bonding...don't ruin it!

[celtic isis]

Hmmm.. so Pike founded the KKK did he?

From http://www.masonicinfo.com/kkk.htm
One of the more common tactics of deceit used by anti-Masons is the charge that Albert Pike - known for his leadership in the late 1800's of Scottish Rite Masonry in the Southern (US) Jurisdiction - founded or was a founder of the Ku Klux Klan.

What they fail to mention, however, is that the Klan began in 1866-7 and was "founded" by 6 young men, veterans of the Confederate cause, but whose motives were unclear: whether it was some kind of racist joke or a true racist group. In 1869, Grand Wizard Nathan B. Forrest* disbanded the organization because it had become uncontrollable. It wasn't until 1915 (well after Pike's death in 1891) that the Klan in its second form reappeared. That group was bankrupted by the U. S. Government in the 1940s and the racist group which exists today has only the connection of a name similarity to the original group.

Many anti-Masons also ignore the fact that Pike was so well respected by the United States that a major statue of him sits in Judiciary Square in Washington, DC today. Although he, like so many other Confederate military officers, was initially charged with Treason, those charges were dropped and today, his statue is the only one of a Confederate General in Washington! (Some, of course, will use this fact as fodder for their belief in the 'Great Masonic Conspiracy' theory....)

After the Civil War, the United States remained philosophically divided. Those who fought on the Confederate side felt wronged and betrayed. Despite the actions of the Union toward reconciliation, they were disenfranchised and angry. Many organizations such as the KKK were founded in the South at this time and many prominent citizens chose membership. To single out Pike for this is not only silly but ignorant of the circumstances of history.

It is also interesting to note that there is no mention of Pike whatsoever in the various contemporaneous Congressional hearings - a fact that seems highly peculiar if there was any suspicion at all that Pike might have been the Klan's Chief Judicial Officer as some have claimed.

Particularly in light of Pike's extensive work with and support of the American Indian (another group which engendered strong feelings of hate at that time), it is false to claim that Pike would be involved in the subjugation of ANY person.

Suffice it to say: when the Ku Klux Klan appeared in its present form, Albert Pike had been dead for some 24 years!

Here's some balance to what you've all been fed about Pike so far:
http://www.masonicinfo.com/pike.htm
http://www.masonicinfo.com/pikestatue.htm

Mike


very interesting post mike martin thank you :) i meant to follow the albert pike/KKK thing up but haven't had the means lately sans internet :D you answered what i wanted to know :)

[eternal_spirit]

http://judicial-inc.biz/Jews_and_KKK.htm

http://judicial-inc.biz/Jews_a10.gif
KKK was founded by Nathan Bedford Forrest in 1866

[3ill]

I think that you would be suprised by the fact that we are just normal people with a past-time that's different to yours.

Mike


Yeah, I said that in so many words, bout two pages back. It was completely overlooked by both parties for the sake of more ridiculous and useless argument topped with sly insuts, by both parties.

You guys enjoy your conversation. You make a great pair.

:rolleyes:

3!LL

[mike martin]

Yeah, I said that in so many words, bout two pages back. It was completely overlooked by both parties for the sake of more ridiculous and useless argument topped with sly insuts, by both parties.

You guys enjoy your conversation. You make a great pair.

:rolleyes:

3!LL

Sorry, I missed that. Defo not for the sake of srguments though.

Mike

[eternal_spirit]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=313374&postcount=39


B'nai Brith (Sons of the Covenant)
Democracy is being redefined to protect all minority rights without distinction. The B'nai Brith, formed by the Sephardic Jews who ran most of the slave trade into America, is a Masonic organization and is Chartered under the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, with their buildings called Lodges. They're implicated in fomenting dissension on both sides of the Revolutionary War, the assassination of Abraham Lincoln through the spin-off group called the Knights of the Golden Circle, all recorded in the Congressional Records. The B'nai Brith are writing the Hate Laws today for implementation into the general public.

EDIT Oh yeah same people behind the creation of the ADL.

[perry_mason]

Hi 3ill,

It was a point well made.

[kblood]

Y'know, It's funny to watch people who consider themselves so above Freemasonry be made to run round in circles by them. Seriously, this whole conversation is going on? Nothing better to do with your lives? No want or desire to expand your knowledge with the wealth of information at your fingertips? Rather continue to spin a futile argument with a few lower level masons? Have fun with it. Your all so enlightened. And keep going, you're all right on the cusp of convincing these guys. Seriously, your at the tipping point.

Chime in to the Mason's for a sec: Thanks for the laugh. A some of us are reasonable, just have our own interests, as you do yours. I'm sure I'll be outed as a "Mason Lover" or "Disinfo" for speaking to you like your, yknow, a human being, so that'll be a chuckle. Personally, while the scandalous stuff is always titilating, I've always been more interested in the 'nature of reality' and 'infinite consciousness' bits of Icke's writing, as it's applied and broadened concepts I've thought about since I was a kid. Hell, a few of you would probably even dig those aspects. It's unfortunate they're usually overlooked for the 'soundbite' version. Don't get me wrong, Even the reptilian stuff intigues me, but beneath that is alot more stuff I'm interested in as it applies to my art, such as the origin of symbols, the origins of religions and the symbology inherit withing them.

Oh, and the twat that started all this trouble on your forums, I hope you don't take him as a representation of everyone in this community. The people here are as diverse as I'm sure your org is.

Peace,
3!LL

I am also most interested in the nature of reality and infinite conciousness. I think of it as looking for solutions rather than just looking at the problems. Finding possible problems and wrongs with the world today is rarely enough to stop them or make them go away.

Still, there is so much about it on this forum that I think it is worth looking into. So far I havent found much evidence that Masons really are controlled by the Illuminati and plays a role in politics, they do in fact seem to play less of a role in politics than I thought, but then, when they do play a role in politics they dont do it as masons anyway. So unless I knew who was Masons then I wont really know what Masons individually do on the political scene and wether they share their perspectives and goals.

I do find it unlikely that some of these Masons, with connections to many other Masons that has alot of influence financially and politically, and they simply dont use these ressources? Never tap into that kind of temptation to make business deals, and further their own organisations?

But it does say that Masons arent to talk about business or politics in the lodges, which leaves for small talk, talk about family, talk about enlightenment and maybe talk about what charity stuff and other freemason related news. I just know I wouldnt be able to stick with those few subjects a whole evening. Well, I guess they could also discuss the media, celebrities and music, but that just doesnt seem masonic to me.

But besides all my suspiscions(no I cant spell it), then I still want to see what knowledge they have to offer on the subjects we research. Some of these masons do alot of research themselves, in fact they all have to do research themselves, so maybe they actually have something to share.

Like what about the Vril discs? Aliens? And so on. I guess they most likely only got the debunking information about it all. Vril discs has been debunked as something that has been manufactured, but the vids about them are really well done, and find it hard to believe that its all stories that has been made up. Quite alot of people in on it then it seems.

[mike martin]

http://judicial-inc.biz/Jews_and_KKK.htm

KKK was founded by Nathan Bedford Forrest in 1866

A very interesting link and it's nice to see a proper member of this Forum using an independent (ish) source which also shows a noticeable lack of a mention of Albert Pike founding the KKK.

It prompted me to briefly look a bit further myself as I was intrigued that none of the sites I'd looked at so far named the founders. I stumbled across this http://www.kkklan.com/ :

It was amid this atmosphere that John Lester, James Crowe, John Kennedy, Calvin Jones, Richard Reed, and Frank McCord met in a law office in Pulaski, TN., on Christmas Eve, 1865 and, innocently enough, decided to form a social club for the purpose of mutual entertainment. The club adopted the style of the college fraternities in vogue at the time. They would dress up in weird costumes and play practical jokes on unsuspecting people. To create an aura of mystery they invented an unusual name and called their social club: the Ku Klux Klan.

It also claims that Forrest became Grand Wizard in 1867 so he didn't found it either.

By early 1867, the Klan was spreading through out large sections of the South. It was still largely unstructured and unorganized. By the same token, the Reconstruction Acts of Congress were very organized and well structured . In short, the White South had no constitutional or legal rights at all. The freed Negroes, however, were given full rights. The end result was Negro rule through out most of the South, enforced by Union bayonets. To avoid chaos and to confront the oppression of reconstruction the Klan sought to organize itself. Spokesmen for the Klan first asked former general, Robert E. Lee, if he would head the organization. Lee declined citing his age and poor health. Lee suggested they ask the younger former general, Nathan Bedford Forrest. When the Klan spokesmen asked if they could count on Lee's support, Lee said yes but only if his support for their growing empire remained absolutely invisible. This inspired the Klan to adopt the nickname, "Invisible Empire". N.B. Forrest accepted the Klan's offer to lead the organization and in April 1867, at a convention in Nashville, TN., Forrest became the first Grand Wizard of the Order of the Ku Klux Klan.

I personally don't think the KKK was a "social club" but then again my only knowledge of the KKK comes from films.

However, it does state that Pike was the Chief Judical Officer of the Klan but then again it also claims that black men were also members.

The page is worth a read just because it puts an entirely different slant on what I thought I knew about the KKK: http://www.kkklan.com/briefhist.htm

Curiouser and curiouser!

Mike

[mike martin]

But it does say that Masons arent to talk about business or politics in the lodges, which leaves for small talk, talk about family, talk about enlightenment and maybe talk about what charity stuff and other freemason related news. I just know I wouldnt be able to stick with those few subjects a whole evening. Well, I guess they could also discuss the media, celebrities and music, but that just doesnt seem masonic to me.
Religion is also a banned topic, mainly because we all come from different religions and it can cause disharmony. We also talk about our families and what we've been up to since the last meeting.

But besides all my suspiscions(no I cant spell it), then I still want to see what knowledge they have to offer on the subjects we research. Some of these masons do alot of research themselves, in fact they all have to do research themselves, so maybe they actually have something to share.
I think it is safe to say that Masonically we don't research the subjects that you do. I for example have been reading books on the various theories we have on how Freemasonry began. It's funny in a way, as our Masonic version of CT would be things like did Freemasonry come from the Knights Templar or Ancient Egypt

Mike

[kblood]

Religion is also a banned topic, mainly because we all come from different religions and it can cause disharmony. We also talk about our families and what we've been up to since the last meeting.
But is ancient mysticism and various other subjects considered religious? You dont discuss esoterics, spirituality, mentalism (if thats even a word) or other stuff like that? Other masons research it, and from what I have heard, occultism is a subject that is researched as part of the initiations.

I think it is safe to say that Masonically we don't research the subjects that you do. I for example have been reading books on the various theories we have on how Freemasonry began. It's funny in a way, as our Masonic version of CT would be things like did Freemasonry come from the Knights Templar or Ancient Egypt

Mike

Yes, and I am still a bit confused that officially Masons are saying that the only reason they use ancient egyptian and knights templar symbols in every lodge I have heard of, is because some people at the beginning of freemasonry mistakenly thought they were founded by knights templar. Hmmm... I dont even know of why the eqyptian symbols are used?

[mike martin]

But is ancient mysticism and various other subjects considered religious? You dont discuss esoterics, spirituality, mentalism (if thats even a word) or other stuff like that? Other masons research it, and from what I have heard, occultism is a subject that is researched as part of the initiations.

OK first occultism should not be confused with esoterism. They are very different things and Freemasonry is not occult. Esoteric means hidden until you are given the key, occult means supernatural beliefs and practises.

Yes, and I am still a bit confused that officially Masons are saying that the only reason they use ancient egyptian and knights templar symbols in every lodge I have heard of, is because some people at the beginning of freemasonry mistakenly thought they were founded by knights templar. Hmmm... I dont even know of why the eqyptian symbols are used?

First I've never been to a Lodge (and I've been to loads) that used either Egyptian or Knight Templar symbolism and no Mason (and I correspond with thousands) has ever told me of one. So I don't know where you get that from.

It's nothing to do with being mistaken. I have mentioned it before, the Masonic Knights Templar do not claim to be connected to the original they were started in honour of the Templar's charcteristics of piety, honour and bravery in the 18th Century. However, over the last 20 odd years claims have been made that we are connected to them.

Mike

[ekx_dissillusioned]

The word occult comes from the Latin word occultus (clandestine, hidden, secret), referring to "knowledge of the hidden".

[cheeney1]

I've heard the KKK rumours before. That site does not cite any references either. If Pike was a member of the KKK then this would for me IMHO go a way to discrediting his status as a Masonic author and suggest that thing's perhaps weren't ticking over properly inside that white sheet.

Again, this man is not Freemasonry.


(Then if He isn't a Freemason) Have a look at that Photo Of Albert Pike
I Posted Isn't that Freemason Garb he's a wearing.....:rolleyes: If He ain't I am a Master Mason Then.....;)

[perry_mason]

(Then if He isn't a Freemason) Have a look at that Photo Of Albert Pike
I Posted Isn't that Freemason Garb he's a wearing.....:rolleyes: If He ain't I am a Master Mason Then.....;)

Bloody hell,

I said this man is not Freemasonry, not the he isn't a Freemason. To put it in another way: Pike is not fully representative of Freemasonry as an abstract concept.

[cheeney1]

Bloody hell,

I said this man is not Freemasonry, not the he isn't a Freemason. To put it in another way: Pike is not fully representative of Freemasonry as an abstract concept.

Then Explain to Me What The Difference is then......:rolleyes:

[kblood]

OK first occultism should not be confused with esoterism. They are very different things and Freemasonry is not occult. Esoteric means hidden until you are given the key, occult means supernatural beliefs and practises.

Well, as stated before, occult means hidden knowledge. I didnt say they were the same though, I was asking about it all in general. I didnt say Freemasonry was occult either, but other masons have said to research the OTO i.e. Researching something and practicing it is completly different things though.

First I've never been to a Lodge (and I've been to loads) that used either Egyptian or Knight Templar symbolism and no Mason (and I correspond with thousands) has ever told me of one. So I don't know where you get that from.

It's nothing to do with being mistaken. I have mentioned it before, the Masonic Knights Templar do not claim to be connected to the original they were started in honour of the Templar's charcteristics of piety, honour and bravery in the 18th Century. However, over the last 20 odd years claims have been made that we are connected to them.

Mike

What country do you live in? The first masonic website I looked on had several templar symbols.
http://www.ddfo.dk/information/plancher/pages/page_1.html

Red cross on a white background. As templar as it gets. I also already stated that I found it wierd how Masons claim they dont have any connection to the Templars, although they use their symbology.

Another mason website:

http://www.thephylaxis.org/

The symbolism used is a bit confusing when knowing what the symbols could mean. I have already been explained about the 5 pointed star that points downwards, and what it means in freemasonry. Outside freemasonry or at least in catholic circles I guess it must be, the symbol is a sign of devil worship. But since its only christianity that actually has the devil or satan in their belief system, then I guess it doesnt really count for much, when the symbol is taken from symbology that predates christianity.

The other symbols does seem arabic if not egyptian though. I might look for a few more sites tomorrow. I found a few with only the Mason Logo symbol on it, so not easy to point out anything there.

[eternal_spirit]

Maybe it's maze designed to boggle the mind with inane, insane confusion, and that's exactley what it was designed to do. There is no Holy Grail, there is no elxier of life. There are no REAL TRUTHS or hidden meanings. But, you may spend a lifetime looking for the secrets, which may not exist in reality. Are you being used as a group of people who are loyal to each other and orders from above, you've been tricked into servitude, to get many things done ( someone else's agenda you are not privy too )

Does this cross the minds of Freemasons? Are you being lead up the garden path?

[cheeney1]

Maybe it's maze designed to boggle the mind with inane, insane confusion, and that's exactley what it was designed to do. There is no Holy Grail, there is no elxier of life. There are no REAL TRUTHS or hidden meanings. But, you may spend a lifetime looking for the secrets, which may not exist in reality. Are you being used as a group of people who are loyal to each other and orders from above, you've been tricked into servitude, to get many things done ( someone else's agenda you are not privy too )

Does this cross the minds of Freemasons? Are you being lead up the garden path?

Of Course They are... An Entered Apprentice, Fello Craft ,Master Mason at the Bottom of the Pile have No Clue what so ever of what Goes on at the Top.....http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/33rd_Initiation.htm

[mwgdrwg]

entered apprentice as practiced in the state of nevada circa 1986
http://www.ephesians5-11.org/pdf/eadeg.pdf

i point readers towards the following

a: a new name, which is caution, it is to teach me to be cautious over all my words and actions especially on the subject of freemasonry when in the midst of its enemies

[mike martin]

Well, as stated before, occult means hidden knowledge. I didnt say they were the same though, I was asking about it all in general. I didnt say Freemasonry was occult either, but other masons have said to research the OTO i.e. Researching something and practicing it is completly different things though.
I was only checking that you didn't think the erms were interchangeable as they mean different things.

What country do you live in? The first masonic website I looked on had several templar symbols.
http://www.ddfo.dk/information/plancher/pages/page_1.htmlRed cross on a white background. As templar as it gets. I also already stated that I found it wierd how Masons claim they dont have any connection to the Templars, although they use their symbology.
I live in England.

Sorry but the cross patee is a common heraldic device, that way predates the Templars, so it's not specifically Templar. The only known specific Templar symbol is the two knights on horseback, althoughtheir battle flag the beausant does have similarities to the floor of a lodge but again it's not specifically templar in origin.

Saying a red cross on a white background is Templar is also wrong, try googling coss of st. george.
Another mason website:

http://www.thephylaxis.org/

The symbolism used is a bit confusing when knowing what the symbols could mean. I have already been explained about the 5 pointed star that points downwards, and what it means in freemasonry. Outside freemasonry or at least in catholic circles I guess it must be, the symbol is a sign of devil worship. But since its only christianity that actually has the devil or satan in their belief system, then I guess it doesnt really count for much, when the symbol is taken from symbology that predates christianity.

The other symbols does seem arabic if not egyptian though. I might look for a few more sites tomorrow. I found a few with only the Mason Logo symbol on it, so not easy to point out anything there.

The five pointed star standing on a point is not Masonic per se, it is the emblem of the Order of the Eastern Star which is a form of "Adoptive Masonry". give that a google as well.

It's also worth pointing out that The Phylaxis Society is a Masonic research society not a Masonic authority, it has a sister organisation called the Philalethes Society of which I used to be a member.

Mike

[3ill]

entered apprentice as practiced in the state of nevada circa 1986
http://www.ephesians5-11.org/pdf/eadeg.pdf

i point readers towards the following

a: a new name, which is caution, it is to teach me to be cautious over all my words and actions especially on the subject of freemasonry when in the midst of its enemies

AAAAAAAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha hahahahaha! ......aahhhh.....sorry.....let me catch my breath...........

AAAAahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahaha!

Oh you sure did leave quick didn't ya? In case your too dense, I'm not laughing at the video, I'm laughing at you.
this is my last post on this forum

thanks lime lady for showing me that this is site is pro masonry

Ohhhhh goodness, When I saw that was your LAST post, I shed a tear in thought that I might never get to hear your opinion on matters again. Oh now I can rejoice in the fact that you've had change of heart and graced us all with your presence once again........

AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHYOU'REATWATAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA!

:D

3!LL

[thelonious]

There arent even any meetings among the grand master masons... anyone know if there really isnt any meetings among grand master masons? You would think some of them at least, would meet each other.

Here in the USA, there is an annual Conference of Grand Masters, where the Grand Masters from each state meet and discuss policy. However, no decisions made at the annual conference are binding on the individual Grand Lodges until they meet separately and officially adopt them by majority vote.

[mwgdrwg]

AAAAAAAhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha hahahahaha! ......aahhhh.....sorry.....let me catch my breath...........

AAAAahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahaha!

Oh you sure did leave quick didn't ya? In case your too dense, I'm not laughing at the video, I'm laughing at you.


Ohhhhh goodness, When I saw that was your LAST post, I shed a tear in thought that I might never get to hear your opinion on matters again. Oh now I can rejoice in the fact that you've had change of heart and graced us all with your presence once again........

AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHYOU'REATWATAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA!

:D

3!LL


oh grow up will you
this just makes you look absolutley pathetic

[thelonious]

The symbolism used is a bit confusing when knowing what the symbols could mean. I have already been explained about the 5 pointed star that points downwards, and what it means in freemasonry. Outside freemasonry or at least in catholic circles I guess it must be, the symbol is a sign of devil worship. But since its only christianity that actually has the devil or satan in their belief system, then I guess it doesnt really count for much, when the symbol is taken from symbology that predates christianity.



True, but there is a relation between the concept of Satan, and the pre-Christian Pythagorean (initiated) concept of the inverted Pentagram.

The Pentagram is an elemental symbol, with each point representing one of the four elements of the ancient Greeks, and the topmost point representing Spirit or Divinity, the source from which the material elements are derived.

When the Pentagram is flipped, the symbolism becomes "evil" because the four material elements have "overthrown" Spirit. It therefore represents matter dominating Spirit. It is also no accident that the symbol resembles a goat's head, because it as well represents Pan, the Greek god depicted as half-man and half-goat, which in turn represents man's animalistic instincts. In the Eleusinian Mysteries, the inverted Pentagram therefore represented the Profane, man in his natural state. The goal of the initiate was to allegorically turn the Pentagram rightside up, where Spirit and Reason would once again control the animal passions, instead of being controlled by them.

The influence of this symbolism on the Christian concept of Satan is apparent, from Christianity's having invested Satan with horns, tail, and hooves (just like Pan).

[the guy in pink]

The Pentagram is an elemental symbol, with each point representing one of the four elements of the ancient Greeks, and the topmost point representing Spirit or Divinity, the source from which the material elements are derived.

When the Pentagram is flipped, the symbolism becomes "evil" because the four material elements have "overthrown" Spirit.

What it represents depends on the culture and education of the viewer.
Not everyone viewing a "flipped " is going to associate it with evil.

[thelonious]

What it represents depends on the culture and education of the viewer.
Not everyone viewing a "flipped " is going to associate it with evil.

Which is why I said that this was the Pythagorean interpretation. ;)

[perry_mason]

Then Explain to Me What The Difference is then......:rolleyes:

Are you for real Cheeny? I think you know what I mean but just in case here are some more examples:


Albert Pike is a Freemason, he is not the be all and end all of Freemasonry as an abstract concept:

Albert Pike was a Freemason but he was not Freemasonry.

Plato was a philosopher but he was not Philosophy.

Dali was a surrealist but he was not Surrealism.

I hope these clarify my statement.

[adramelech]

This topic is kind of descending into mudslinging, but I have a question and a statement.

Firstly, debating Freemasonry with a Freemason is akin to debating Scientology with a devout Scientologist. When you wholeheartedly belong to a belief system or a school of thought, it's impossible for you to step back and look at it objectively, you can only argue from the point of view of a believer or member. This problem is made worse when you consider that a great majority of low-ranking, entry level Masons are completely ignorant in any matter of spiritual, symbolic or metaphysical knowledge prior to becoming a Mason (or indeed any concept of speculative Masonry in general) therefore their understanding is entirely skewed in favor of their chosen Freemasonic model.

Secondly, has anyone in this topic actually researched the history of Freemasonry outside biased Masonic sources or equally biased conspiracy books? I see people saying things like "Masonry is not active in politics" and it just blows my mind. A good portion of early European masonry came directly out of political subterfuge! And downplaying connection to the Templars? Albert Mackey produced evidence of Templar lodges and degrees in Scottish Freemasonry dating back to the mid-1700s.

[the guy in pink]

Secondly, has anyone in this topic actually researched the history of Freemasonry outside biased Masonic sources or equally biased conspiracy books? .
One of the first persons to do so was Robert Freek Gould who researched the history freemasonry through original documents where possible.
His massive 3 volume work was produced in about 1890 and is still used as the reference for serious objective study.
The earliest document he used dates from about 1390 (or 1406 according to others)
I have read Gould's History and recall seeing an online .PDF version recently.

[3ill]

oh grow up will you
this just makes you look absolutley pathetic

RoFLMAo! Ahahahaha! And you making a drama about leaving and then showing back up like you never posted it IN THE SAME THREAD makes you look respectable? Thank you so much for the laughs, man, it's really brightened my day. I mean REALLY, thank you, it's been hilarious!

3!LL

[mwgdrwg]

RoFLMAo! Ahahahaha! And you making a drama about leaving and then showing back up like you never posted it IN THE SAME THREAD makes you look respectable? Thank you so much for the laughs, man, it's really brightened my day. I mean REALLY, thank you, it's been hilarious!

3!LL

if you were perhaps a bit better with computers or a tad more inteligent you might have noticed as did everyone else that i never left.
you arent the quickest chap from your masonic tag team are you reffering to a post i made over a week ago

oh are you a mason? i can honestly say ive never taken notice of any of your posts until you refferred to me
i presume you are a mason as you are attacking me.

cest la vie

[thelonious]

Firstly, debating Freemasonry with a Freemason is akin to debating Scientology with a devout Scientologist. When you wholeheartedly belong to a belief system or a school of thought, it's impossible for you to step back and look at it objectively, you can only argue from the point of view of a believer or member.

I will concede that, as a Mason, I may not always be as objective as a non-Mason, although I will certainly try to be. However, the critics of Masonry, especially the conspiracy theorists, are generally much less objective than any Mason. ;)


This problem is made worse when you consider that a great majority of low-ranking, entry level Masons are completely ignorant in any matter of spiritual, symbolic or metaphysical knowledge prior to becoming a Mason (or indeed any concept of speculative Masonry in general) therefore their understanding is entirely skewed in favor of their chosen Freemasonic model.

I pretty much agree with your general idea here, but it is important not to get caught up in this "high level Mason, low level Mason" stuff. There are plenty of Grand Masters and Inspectors General of the 33° that don't know jack squat about Masonic symbolism and Masonic history. Being elected a Grand Poobah does not guarantee that the electee all of a sudden becomes smart.

It also ignores the fact that a "low level" Mason can have much more Masonic knowledge than any of them, providing he devotes himself to study.

Secondly, has anyone in this topic actually researched the history of Freemasonry outside biased Masonic sources or equally biased conspiracy books?

Yes.

I see people saying things like "Masonry is not active in politics" and it just blows my mind. A good portion of early European masonry came directly out of political subterfuge!

It's important to undesrtand this difference: Freemasons *have* been involved in politics. Freemasonry has not. In other words, Freemasonry *as an organization* plays no role in politics. Individual Freemasons do, just like individual non-Masons do.

And downplaying connection to the Templars? Albert Mackey produced evidence of Templar lodges and degrees in Scottish Freemasonry dating back to the mid-1700s.

They were formed in the 1700's. There were no Masonic Templar organizations in existence previous to the 1740's. Historians, both Masonic and non-Masonic, generally agree that, therefore, there was no connection between Freemasonry and original Templary. Masonic Templary seems to have begun on its own in the 18th century.

[adramelech]

One of the first persons to do so was Robert Freek Gould who researched the history freemasonry through original documents where possible.
His massive 3 volume work was produced in about 1890 and is still used as the reference for serious objective study.
The earliest document he used dates from about 1390 (or 1406 according to others)
I have read Gould's History and recall seeing an online .PDF version recently.

Well thank goodness someone has.

Here's a link to Gould's work for free online:

The History of Freemasonry (http://books.google.com/books?id=w04BAAAAQAAJ&pg=PP11&dq=editions:0Ai0SZkPcmnKz-Dz&output=html)

[adramelech]

I pretty much agree with your general idea here, but it is important not to get caught up in this "high level Mason, low level Mason" stuff. There are plenty of Grand Masters and Inspectors General of the 33° that don't know jack squat about Masonic symbolism and Masonic history. Being elected a Grand Poobah does not guarantee that the electee all of a sudden becomes smart.

It also ignores the fact that a "low level" Mason can have much more Masonic knowledge than any of them, providing he devotes himself to study.


Oh absolutely, that was kind of the point I was trying to make. I didn't really mean to specifically identify only low ranking Masons, but rather Masons who just have little understanding of the concepts in general and allow themselves to be molded by the order.

[thelonious]

Oh absolutely, that was kind of the point I was trying to make. I didn't really mean to specifically identify only low ranking Masons, but rather Masons who just have little understanding of the concepts in general and allow themselves to be molded by the order.

Then I agree. Before I became a Mason, I had been a member of another Society dedicated to the study of the Tarot, Hermeticism, and Qabalah. I was therefore already familiar with many of the concepts of esoteric Masonry.

And, to be honest, I was a little disappointed where, throughout my Masonic initiations, nobody could correctly pronounce the word "Kabalah" during the ritual....and afterwards, when I tried to discuss it with them, nobody really knew what it meant. They were generally just repeating lines from very old rituals that they really didn't understand, and were not interested enough to want to learn. To the vast majority, Freemasonry is a dinner and cigar club with funny hats and secret handshakes, and not much more.

[3ill]

if you were perhaps a bit better with computers or a tad more inteligent you might have noticed as did everyone else that i never left.
you arent the quickest chap from your masonic tag team are you reffering to a post i made over a week ago

oh are you a mason? i can honestly say ive never taken notice of any of your posts until you refferred to me
i presume you are a mason as you are attacking me.

cest la vie

LULZ! Oh please, stop, you're making my sides hurt.

What, are you sad that no one begged you to come back? No one pleaded with you not to leave? Awwwww, it's so sad my friend, next time you throw a pity part for yourself we'll all gather round and cry for you.

Oh yeah, I'm so unintelligent. So much so that I interpreted :

this is my last post on this forum

as to mean that it was your last post on this forum. You see where I'm from last has a pretty solid definition, post has a pretty solid definition, and forum has a pretty solid definition. I explained in my post that I haven't posted here in a while. If you click my name you can even look at all of my posts. How about that. Magic of the internet is things get saved. However, the funny thing is I've seen people do this on forums before when people disagree with them, and I could have won money if I'd bet that you'd either post again as if this thread wasn't started to be all about your triumphant exit, or that you'd sign up under a new username and there would be this mysterious new person posting with all you're same attributes, poor grammar, and a low post count. You made the post over a week ago? Oh does that change anything?

And I'm sooooo mason. You can presunme that all you want. Matter of fact, presume I'm a grand high dragon of the KKK, and that I work as a CIA disinfo agent in my spare time. Oh, and presume that I'm in a conspiracy of one and my job is to be out to get you personally, as you're a total threat to the empire the establishment has built up. Yep all of it comes crumbling down if you survive, and I'm on the job, baby!

And then you can sit around playing with all your assumptions, and having a good time.

Oh and to everyone else who's trying to carry on a serious conversation, including my "masonic tag team", I apologize If I'm being distracting. I'm just having too much fun.

3!LL

[mwgdrwg]

LULZ! Oh please, stop, you're making my sides hurt.

What, are you sad that no one begged you to come back? No one pleaded with you not to leave? Awwwww, it's so sad my friend, next time you throw a pity part for yourself we'll all gather round and cry for you.

Oh yeah, I'm so unintelligent. So much so that I interpreted :



as to mean that it was your last post on this forum. You see where I'm from last has a pretty solid definition, post has a pretty solid definition, and forum has a pretty solid definition. I explained in my post that I haven't posted here in a while. If you click my name you can even look at all of my posts. How about that. Magic of the internet is things get saved. However, the funny thing is I've seen people do this on forums before when people disagree with them, and I could have won money if I'd bet that you'd either post again as if this thread wasn't started to be all about your triumphant exit, or that you'd sign up under a new username and there would be this mysterious new person posting with all you're same attributes, poor grammar, and a low post count. You made the post over a week ago? Oh does that change anything?

And I'm sooooo mason. You can presunme that all you want. Matter of fact, presume I'm a grand high dragon of the KKK, and that I work as a CIA disinfo agent in my spare time. Oh, and presume that I'm in a conspiracy of one and my job is to be out to get you personally, as you're a total threat to the empire the establishment has built up. Yep all of it comes crumbling down if you survive, and I'm on the job, baby!

And then you can sit around playing with all your assumptions, and having a good time.

Oh and to everyone else who's trying to carry on a serious conversation, including my "masonic tag team", I apologize If I'm being distracting. I'm just having too much fun.

3!LL

this thread was posted because i lashed out due to frustration
get over it bill, is it such a big deal?

[manchurian_candidate]

this thread was posted because i lashed out due to frustration
get over it bill, is it such a big deal?

I understand you losing your temper that's fair enough. Maybe an apology to Limelady would help? :)

[3ill]

this thread was posted because i lashed out due to frustration
get over it bill, is it such a big deal?

Right, I'm a fair, man, and that's an honest statement. No it's not a big deal, but if I have anything near a point, it's that some of this BS you've pulled (Such as making claims in other threads without any evidence a-la the "what masons pay to join" thread) ends up representing the community as a whole. Most people remember that before they remember something sensible. Example: If you've ever seen the episode of Penn and Teller's Bullshit where they cover conspiracy theories, they find the most ridiculous asses who cannot represent themselves clearly, concisely and without stooping to cheap low-end stements, and use them to make the argument that I'M a fucking nutter, because I agree with the basic premise.

Appreciate the honesty, take care.

Peace,
3!LL

[red_ram]

I don't believe this site is pro-masonry. I believe that instead it's pro freedom of speech, or at least pro-letting members of a group vilified in David's books have their say.

[tinmenace]

I don't believe this site is pro-masonry. I believe that instead it's pro freedom of speech, or at least pro-letting members of a group vilified in David's books have their say.

They've had plenty of say, but they refuse to answer questions truthfully. So, it's a balls-up really. ;)

[limelady]

I understand you losing your temper that's fair enough. Maybe an apology to Limelady would help? :)

Hi MC....thanks for the thought, but there's no need for any further apology on the thread, as mwgdrwg has already sent me an apology via PM, which I greatly appreciated. :)

[manchurian_candidate]

Hi MC....thanks for the thought, but there's no need for any further apology on the thread, as mwgdrwg has already sent me an apology via PM, which I greatly appreciated. :)

No worries :) xxx

[chestnutlodge]

The answers are truthfull but obviously do not fit into what you percieve the truth to be or have been told. There is a difference you know.

[thelonious]

They've had plenty of say, but they refuse to answer questions truthfully. So, it's a balls-up really. ;)

I take excepton to that statement. I started the "Freemasonry Q&A" thread at the request of another member of this forum (non-Mason), and have spent a lot of time patiently and *honestly* answering peoples' questions when I could have been doing other things. To suggest that my answers were not honest is itself dishonest.

[nihil]

MASONIC TRADITION AND THE ROYAL ARCH

E. A. WAITE

THE old distinction between Blue and Red has almost fallen
into desuetude, so far as normal parlance is concerned,
among members of the Craft in England; The ROYAL ARCH,
or Red Masonry, has passed by its hypothesis out the symbolical domain:
on the surface, at least, it is dealing no longer with allegory, but with
an actual historical event. According to that version of the
Holy Order which is at work in England and Wales, under the
obedience of the Supreme Grand Chapter, it belongs - as
we are all well aware - to the time of Zerubbabel and the
building of the Second Temple.

A signal confusion followed, for they slew the prototypical
Master, whereas they raised the Candidate, creating a
complete fissure in the logic of symbolism. So it has
remained among us, but something like sixty years after the
approximate date of construction, the Loge de la
Bienfaisance at Lyons, which transmuted the RITE OF THE
STRICT OBSERVANCE, intervened to save the situation, so
far as French Masonry was concerned, and in the Grade of
PERFECT MASTER of St. Andrew they raised Hiram as
Christ. If we pursue the subject of confusion from another
point of departure, we know that - by the hypothesis of the
Third Degree - the Temple of Solomon was left unfinished,
like the legend itself, from which consideration of simple fact
it follows that any completion of the Third Degree should
take up the Hiramic myth at the point where its story broke
off, and lead it to an end in symbolism.

My purpose is to
collect the links of the broken chain and then join them up.
If the question be why does the Craft Candidate pass
through a figurative experience which connotes the idea of
death, and then through a shadow of resurrection, the
answer is that the god died and rose in the Ancient
Mysteries, as in the great proto-typical example which is that
of Osiris. He was of the Divine Pantheon, and he returned
thereto, as to former companions at once of toil and
attainment. So also Tammuz died and rose; the dead Adonis
was given back to the arms of Venus, even as Persephone
to Demeter. It was not invented by Masonry, and if I speak here
only of the mythos in Israel it is not peculiar thereto, though it appears
under other aspects in other regions of traditional lore. Before linking up
briefly the chain of Ritual, it is necessary to make a proviso with
respect to the sources.

By the hypothesis of the ZOHAR, the Secret Doctrine, the
Supreme Wisdom, in a word, that Hidden Treasure which
was transmitted in perpetuity thereafter as a tradition through
the ages, was communicated to the First Man by means of a
book, which came down from heaven in the hands of the
angel Raziel, and was delivered to Adam, the messenger in
question being denominated Chief of Supreme Mysteries. It
remained in the possession of Adam till he was driven out of
the Garden, when it was ravished out of his hands. But as it
is obvious that there could have been no Secret Tradition -
such as was conceived by the mind of Israel - unless its
depository were restored, so we hear in due course that in
answer to his tears and entreaties it was given back in the
end to our progenitor by the angel Raphael. Adam
transmitted it to Seth, from whom it passed to Enoch, who,
after he was taken by God became the great angel Metatron,
the Angel of the Presence and Chief of the Celestial School.
It is said that the School of Metatron is the School of the
Holy One, and that in his hands are the Keys of Heaven. It
came about for these reasons that the Secret Book is called
the BOOK OF ENOCH, though it passed down ultimately to
Abraham. Thereafter the ZOHAR is silent regarding its
travels and whereabouts, but the Secret Tradition of which it
is the source was communicated to the elders by Moses and
thence, in the myth concerning it, through succeeding
generations to the doctors of the Zoharic school, the chief
repository at the time of the fall of Jerusalem being Rabbi
Simeon ben Yochai.

From Zoharic Kabalism the tradition descended to the follies
and iniquities of Jewish Ceremonial Magic, and so it comes
about that in these dregs and lees there is a BOOK OF
RAZIEL, which is a book of Divine Names and Conjurations
based thereon. It is a favourable specimen of its class, in
comparison with Keys of Solomon, texts of Goetia, Sworn
Books of Honorius and things under the generic title of
Grimoires; but it presents a corrupted form of the tradition
concerning Enoch. Antecedent to the ZOHAR, as I have
intimated, are certain Talmudic fables, which exceed the
scope of this notice. Antecedent to both are Josephus and a
comparatively ancient apocrypha of the apocalyptic class
under the name of the BOOK OF ENOCH. It is not otherwise to our
purpose. But the BOOK OF ENOCH, which is a series of
visions beheld by the prophet when he was in the spirit, like
the seer of Patmos, is a prototype of Masonic tradition and
that especially which is reflected into the ROYAL ARCH. It is
said that GOD shewed Enoch nine vaults in a vision, and
that with the assistance of Methuselah his son, he
proceeded to erect in the bosom of the mountain of Canaan
a secret sanctuary, on the plan of what he had beheld, being
vaults beneath one another.

In the ninth, or undermost vault, Enoch placed a triangle of
purest gold, on which he had inscribed that which was
presumably the heart, essence and centre of the Secret
Tradition, the True Name of God, comprehending all grace,
all power and the providence of Divine Mercy. It is the
development of this legend which can be followed through
several Grades and various Rites of Masonry, the root of all
therein being referable to the Traditional History in the Third
Craft Degree. When Moses, Aholiab and Bezaleel
sat in the Holy Lodge, at the foot of Mount Horeb, during the
long wanderings of Israel in the desert of Sinai, by the great
hypothesis of the tradition, they were in plenary possession
of all the Masonic treasures. When Solomon and others of
the triad, who ruled the Sacred Lodge, sat on Mount Moriah,
it was still as if the sun were at its meridian, a noon-tide glory
of Masonry. But a change came over, by which the triad was
broken and the light of the Art was obscured. It seems to me
that in the deeper understanding our Craft Lodges are a
memorial of this original loss.

[keystone]

Crowley didn't like him.

Cheers

[thelonious]

Crowley didn't like him.



And for good reason. Waite was a pompous ass who almost never knew what the hell he was talking about.

Crowley, on the other hand, was a pompous ass who was an expert.

:cool:

[grandsecretary]

Except that Waite was absolutely correct when he traced the Legend of Hiram, to The Sons of Solomon (the Compagnonnage) of France during the mid 16th century. These are the rituals of the Moderns form of freemasonry. They have nothing whatsoever to do with genuine Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry.

Why should I be telling the Moderns their own history? Rhetorical question. Answer: because they don't know it.

[keystone]

Except that Waite was absolutely correct when he traced the Legend of Hiram, to The Sons of Solomon in France during the mid 16th century. These are the rituals of the Moderns form of freemasonry.Who said he wasn't?

Why should I be telling the Moderns their own history? Rhetorical question. Answer: because they don't know it.Na Na Ne A Na. :p

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Who said he wasn't?

thelonius. Apparently Waite was a pompous ass who almost never knew what the hell he was talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Edward_Waite

Perhaps thelonius would be willing to list his credentials so that we might compare them with Waite's?

[papillon55]

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/5021/image5freemason2.jpg

[phildee3]

Except that Waite was absolutely correct when he traced the Legend of Hiram, to The Sons of Solomon (the Compagnonnage) of France during the mid 16th century. These are the rituals of the Moderns form of freemasonry. They have nothing whatsoever to do with genuine Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry.



"Genuine Anglo-Saxon freemasonry"??
Where did they get it from?
Could it not have evolved from an earlier "more genuine" freemasonry that the moderns are trying to rediscover?

I'm interested in masonry (or whatever it was then, that evolved into freemasonry) at the time of Christ.
Is "carpenter" a mistranslation of "craftsman"?
Was Joseph of Arimathea not a master mason?
Why did Joseph (the "carpenter") take the infant Jesus to spend his formative years in Egypt?
Any refs. gs?

[grandsecretary]

"Genuine Anglo-Saxon freemasonry"??
Where did they get it from?
Could it not have evolved from an earlier "more genuine" freemasonry that the moderns are trying to rediscover?

I'm interested in masonry (or whatever it was then, that evolved into freemasonry) at the time of Christ.
Is "carpenter" a mistranslation of "craftsman"?
Was Joseph of Arimathea not a master mason?
Why did Joseph (the "carpenter") take the infant Jesus to spend his formative years in Egypt?
Any refs. gs?

Genuine Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry did not "get it" from anywhere, it IS it. It is the same pre-Davidic religion that became Druidic/Celtic/and Johannine Templar.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/AncientofDays-1.jpg

Just as a starter because it is an enormous subject, put Culdees Masons Monks into your favourite web browser and read ALL of the results. Then browse on Culdee Templar and read that lot.

That will get you started. After you have done then get back to me and I will give you loads more to read.

"From a Masonic document now in my possession, I can prove that no very long time ago the Culdees of York were Freemasons, that they constituted the Grand Lodge of England, and that they held their meetings in the Crypt under the great Cathedral of that city. The circular chapter-house did very well for ordinary business, but the Secret Mysteries were carried on in the crypts ... the Lodge, which was the Grand Lodge of All England had been held under the Cathedral in the Crypt at York." (SOURCE: Anacalypsis Vol. 1, p. 718 by Godfrey Higgins 1833-1836.)

"The Culdees of York was the name borne by the Canons Regular of St Peter's of York about AD 925." St Peter's of York, York Minster: Cathedral and Metropolitical Church of St Peter in York (SOURCE: p.615, Volume V07, Encyclopaedia Brittanica 11th edition, 1911)

The Culdees of York were among the guardians of the Masonic tradition in the tenth century, and the Old Charges tell us that an assembly of Masons was held at York during the reign of King Athelstan, when a reorganization of the Craft took place. (SOURCE: A New Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry (Ars Magna Latomorum) and of Cognate Instituted Mysteries: Their Rites, Literature, and History by Arthur Edward Waite, 1921)

"The circumstantial traditions of the period have it that from the congregations of the Culdees at York arose the early Masonic lodges of Britain to which King Athelstane, at the instigation of a member of his family, granted franchises or charters in 934. (SOURCE: Ancient Freemasonry: An Introduction to Masonic Archeology, The Culdees as Early Masons, by Frank Higgins, New York, 1923)

"Culdees are recorded in church documents as officiating at St Peter in York until AD 939. According to the same church authorities, the Canons of York were called "Culdees" as late as the reign of Henry II (AD 1133-1189) (SOURCE: The Traditions of Glastonbury by E. Raymond, Capt, MA, AIA, FSA Scot.)

"In England we find them (Culdees) as officiating clergy in the Cathedral Church of S. Peter at York during the reign of King Athelstan, who was so closely linked with English Masonic tradition." (SOURCE: Ancient Mystic Rites, p.118, by Charles Webster Leadbetter, 1926)

All you need to do now is research the history of the Céli Déi. The answers are all there for you if you want them.

[phildee3]

Genuine Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry did not "get it" from anywhere, it IS it. It is the same pre-Davidic religion that became Druidic/Celtic/and Johannine Templar.



Well that looks like a very obvious contradiction to me!

But thanks for making the link with the Céli Déi for me.
Excellent!

[grandsecretary]

Well that looks like a very obvious contradiction to me!

But thanks for making the link with the Céli Déi for me.
Excellent!

You will understand when you have done the research that I have suggested. Enjoy.

[grandsecretary]

Well that looks like a very obvious contradiction to me!

But thanks for making the link with the Céli Déi for me.
Excellent!

Remember: "... there is no such thing as a coincidence"

[phildee3]

You will understand when you have done the research that I have suggested. Enjoy.



Prior commitments prevent me from taking on this amount of reading so I'll just stay ignorant on this, I guess.
However, some browsing of this topic is relevent to my present research so - thanks.

[grandsecretary]

Prior commitments prevent me from taking on this amount of reading so I'll just stay ignorant on this, I guess.
However, some browsing of this topic is relevent to my present research so - thanks.

I am glad to have been of service.

[marpat]

"Genuine Anglo-Saxon freemasonry"??
Where did they get it from?
Could it not have evolved from an earlier "more genuine" freemasonry that the moderns are trying to rediscover?

I'm interested in masonry (or whatever it was then, that evolved into freemasonry) at the time of Christ.
Is "carpenter" a mistranslation of "craftsman"?
Was Joseph of Arimathea not a master mason?
Why did Joseph (the "carpenter") take the infant Jesus to spend his formative years in Egypt?
Any refs. gs?

Or the stone that the builders rejected has become the capstone. Maybe christ was a freemason

[grandsecretary]

Or the stone that the builders rejected has become the capstone. Maybe christ was a freemason

The stone that the builders rejected became the capstone.

[marpat]

The stone that the builders rejected became the capstone.

Actually yes!!

[phildee3]

The stone that the builders rejected became the capstone.



This is a complete misquote leading to misunderstanding the profound meaning of the original:
"The stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone." Psalm 118:22.

You should know better than that, gs.
I would think there would be a severe in-lodge punishment for such a travesty!

[grandsecretary]

This is a complete misquote leading to misunderstanding the profound meaning of the original:
"The stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone." Psalm 118:22.

You should know better than that, gs.
I would think there would be a severe in-lodge punishment for such a travesty!

Not at all and I understand what I posted, absolutely. Perhaps you should explain your understanding of this quotation remembering that the Order of the Mark Mason was a Grand Lodge of All England ritual first and foremost.

[phildee3]

Not at all and I understand what I posted, absolutely. Perhaps you should explain your understanding of this quotation remembering that the Order of the Mark Mason was a Grand Lodge of All England ritual first and foremost.



This is a cornerstone.
Must be firm and true for a solid foundation.

http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/19600/19651/cornerstone_19651_lg.gif


http://senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/graphic/large/RussellCornerstone.jpg

http://www.aoc.gov/images/capitol_cornerstone.jpg

"You are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Ephesians 2:19-22

[eternal_spirit]

How about the Keystone does that fit into any of this? Keytone holds an arch together.

[grandsecretary]

"The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner" Psalms 118, v.22

The separation of the words "head" and "stone" is important. It is a Christian reference towards a sacred stone. The words italicised are italicised in the Bible itself they are not mine.

[phildee3]

The separation of the words "head" and "stone" is important. It is a Christian reference towards a sacred stone.



No it's not.
It is true masonic/Christian, occult symbology.

I see now what you're about.
Blindly following an Anglo-Saxon, literalist corruption of true masonry which is much, much older.

True masonry is an esoteric craft,
the self-realisation of profound inner truths,
not a bunch of children obediently playing with building blocks.

This is the, big brother illuminazi form of masonry that has so many on this forum upset with freemasons!
I must say you lot have done an excellent job convincing people that masonry, at it's core, is evil!

[grandsecretary]

No it's not.
It is true masonic/Christian, occult symbology.

I see now what you're about.
Blindly following an Anglo-Saxon, literalist corruption of true masonry which is much, much older.

True masonry is an esoteric craft,
the self-realisation of profound inner truths,
not a bunch of children obediently playing with building blocks.

This is the, big brother illuminazi form of masonry that has so many on this forum upset with freemasons!
I must say you lot have done an excellent job convincing people that masonry, at it's core, is evil!

I am afraid that you are simply wrong, and I am frankly amazed at your gullibility, but that is your burden to bear.

Free Masonry is a religious organisation with its roots firmly implanted in the Ancient pre-Davidic Priesthoods. Nothing more, nothing less. The Moderns form of freemasonry is the opposite, it is modern and irreligious. It does not believe in God the Creator and Preserver of all things or in the immortality of souls, the very foundation of most of the established religions, particularly Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hindu and Sikhism.

[phildee3]

I am afraid that you are simply wrong, and I am frankly amazed at your gullibility, but that is your burden to bear.

I am amazed.



No gullibility.
I have not been told this. I have worked it out for myself.
You are the one listening to others.

[grandsecretary]

No gullibility.
I have not been told this. I have worked it out for myself.
You are the one listening to others.

Then try again because you are completely wrong. In fact I am at a complete loss to understand how you arrived at these quite incredible conclusions. Have you visited our website?

Free Masonry is a religious organisation with its roots firmly implanted in the Ancient pre-Davidic Priesthoods. Nothing more, nothing less. The Moderns form of freemasonry is the opposite, it is modern and irreligious. It does not believe in God the Creator and Preserver of all things or in the immortality of souls, the very foundation of most of the established religions, particularly Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hindu and Sikhism.

[phildee3]

Then try again because you are completely wrong. In fact I am at a complete loss to understand how you arrived at these quite incredible conclusions. Have you visited our website?

Free Masonry is a religious organisation with its roots firmly implanted in the Ancient pre-Davidic Priesthoods. Nothing more, nothing less. The Moderns form of freemasonry is the opposite, it is modern and irreligious. It does not believe in God the Creator and Preserver of all things or in the immortality of souls, the very foundation of most of the established religions, particularly Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hindu and Sikhism.



Think about it, mate.
Sleep on it.
Some of us think for ourselves, others follow the dogma of the sub-group to which we have joined - making foolish vows to leaders whose agenda is not fully known to us.
Real freemasonry is just that - free from dogma!

[grandsecretary]

Think about it, mate.
Sleep on it.
Some of us think for ourselves, others follow the dogma of the sub-group to which we have joined - making foolish vows to leaders whose agenda is not fully known to us.
Real freemasonry is just that - free from dogma!

Oh I agree with you absolutely. The United Grand Lodge of England and its satellite Grand Lodges are free from religious dogma. And I acknowledge that it is freemasonry too. Moderns freemasonry.

But it is not our Free Masonry. We want nothing to do with it, for the exact reason that you give, it is irreligious, so why are you so worried when the orignal form of religious Free Masonry has been revived. What is your problem? What are you frightened of?

[phildee3]

Oh I agree with you absolutely. The United Grand Lodge of England and its satellite Grand Lodges are free from religious dogma. And I acknowledge that it is freemasonry too. Moderns freemasonry.

But it is not our Free Masonry. We want nothing to do with it, for the exact reason that you give, it is irreligious,



I never said that!
You're equating dogma with religion.
Two different things entirely.
Dogma kills true religion.



so why are you so worried when the orignal form of religious Free Masonry has been revived. What is your problem? What are you frightened of?



You're talking to yourself here.
You're the one who doesn't like "modern" freemasonry (and thus original freemasonry) and adheres to a dogmatic, dark ages version.

[grandsecretary]

I never said that!
You're equating dogma with religion.
Two different things entirely.
Dogma kills true religion.

You're talking to yourself here.
You're the one who doesn't like "modern" freemasonry (and thus original freemasonry) and adheres to a dogmatic, dark ages version.

I agree with you, but I am not alone in not liking the Moderns, look around you!

You are absolutely right. As "a product of the Enlightenment" - "Deus Sive Natura [God or Nature]", Moderns freemasonry has no religious dogma which is why it is anathema to Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduisn, Sikhism, and the Grand Lodge of All England.

We do not disagree on this issue, in fact we are in total agreement, so why are you being so aggressive? I ask you for the second time, what are you so frightened of?

Would you please be kind enough to explain what you mean by "true religion" which apparently is killed if it has a religious dogma?

At last, we are discussing the issues.

[phildee3]

I agree with you, but I am not alone in not liking the Moderns, look around you!



I don't give a hoot what other people think.
I think for myself.
Being in the majority, or the minority, does not influence me in any way.



Moderns freemasonry has no religious dogma which is why it is anathema to Christianity,



My Christianity has no dogma.



what are you so frightened of?



Nothing.



Would you please be kind enough to explain what you mean by "true religion" which apparently is killed if it has a religious dogma?



Reuniting with the "supreme being," is an essentially esoteric process.
Dogma is exoteric.

[grandsecretary]

I don't give a hoot what other people think.
I think for myself.
Being in the majority, or the minority, does not influence me in any way.



My Christianity has no dogma.



Nothing.



Reuniting with the "supreme being," is an essentially esoteric process.
Dogma is exoteric.

Fantastic, because that is EXACTLY the difference between the Grand Lodge of the Ancients, and the Grand Lodge of the Moderns which is why it will forever be irreconcilable and therefore not a threat to one another, please tell your friends here.

You see. When you discuss issues, they sometimes reach a sensible conclusion.

Ours was the first exoteric Grand Lodge

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/AncientofDays-1.jpg

Yours the first esoteric Grand Lodge and I pray to God that the twains never meet.

In a nutshell.

Thank you very much. Great post.

[phildee3]

Fantastic, because that is EXACTLY the difference between the Grand Lodge of the Ancients, and the Grand Lodge of the Moderns which is why it will forever be irreconcilable and therefore not a threat to one another, please tell your friends here.



Uhm, I'm not sure who you're talking about. I'm very much on my own in this, I would say.
Original masonry, as well as the original forms of all religions, is esoteric. It's esoteric nature is still contained within it's sacred rites, but your people treat them as some quaint, meaningless, outdated pagentry.
"Modern" freemasonry, where it succeeds in it's revivalist intent, may in some instances restore that pure form.
In these instances, ancient and modern are completely reconcilable.



Ours was the first exoteric Grand Lodge



Neither anncient nor modern, but born of the dark ages in between.



Yours the first esoteric Grand Lodge



No. Original masonry was the first!

[grandsecretary]

Uhm, I'm not sure who you're talking about. I'm very much on my own in this, I would say.
Original masonry, as well as the original forms of all religions, is esoteric. It's esoteric nature is still contained within it's sacred rites, but your people treat them as some quaint, meaningless, outdated pagentry.
"Modern" freemasonry, where it succeeds in it's revivalist intent, may in some instances restore that pure form.
In these instances, ancient and modern are completely reconcilable.



Neither anncient nor modern, but born of the dark ages in between.



No. Original masonry was the first!

No, I know that you don't, but please don't let that put you off.

Please describe "Original masonry", but don't attempt it if it makes you feel even more insecure than you already are.

Perhaps you would be king enough to tell us what, in your opinion, Free Masonry actually is, so that we may have the basis of a sensible discussion?

[phildee3]

Perhaps you would be king enough to tell us what, in your opinion, Free Masonry actually is, so that we may have the basis of a sensible discussion?



It is about many things.
One of the most important is integrity.

You have excluded the possibility of a "sensible discussion" when you said "I pray to God that the twains never meet."

[grandsecretary]

It is about many things.
One of the most important is integrity.

You have excluded the possibility of a "sensible discussion" when you said "I pray to God that the twains never meet."

"Many things" - very helpful - NOT.

"Original masonry" - no answer.

You are not kidding anyone phildee, especially not me.

Integrity does not include making a personal attack on somebody when they ask you a perfectly reasonable question, merely as an excuse for not answering it.

"Your Christianity" may not have dogma but does it tell you anything about being open, honest and straight forward?

[phildee3]

Integrity does not include making a personal attack on somebody when they ask you a perfectly reasonable question,



I am not aware of having done this.
Even if I did, this would have nothing to do with integrity of the attacker as long as it is honest.



"Your Christianity" may not have dogma but does it tell you anything about being open, honest and straight forward?



Does Charles Leadbeater's?

[grandsecretary]

I am not aware of having done this.
Even if I did, this would have nothing to do with integrity of the attacker as long as it is honest.



Does Charles Leadbeater's?

But it wasn't honest, and that is the point. How dare you call into question my integrity you Nazi.

Charles Leadbetter: of course not, but what the hell has Charles Leadbetter got to do with me? He's one of yours. You do this all of the time associating people with people situations and beliefs that do not belong to them. Guilt by association. The tool of the true charlatan.

Are you going to answer the questions or not? I suspect I know the answer. You wouldn't know honesty if it bit you on the rear end.

[phildee3]

How dare you call into question my integrity you Nazi.



So we stoop to name calling, huh?
I never called into question your integrity.
You asked me what masonry was all about, in my opinion, and I said one of the most important elements is integrity. Period.



Charles Leadbetter: of course not, but what the hell has Charles Leadbetter got to do with me?



You quote him as one of your sources and I just wondered which "side" you thought he was on.



Are you going to answer the questions or not?



What's the point?
It only serves to fuel your confrontational attitude.

[grandsecretary]

So we stoop to name calling, huh?
I never called into question your integrity.
You asked me what masonry was all about, in my opinion, and I said one of the most important elements is integrity. Period.



You quote him as one of your sources and I just wondered which "side" you thought he was on.



What's the point?
It only serves to fuel your confrontational attitude.

Thank you for clearing up any misunderstanding over the use of the word integrity. As it happens I asked you to say what you believe Freemasonry IS. Integrity is NOT the answer. What IS your freemasonry? We know what ours is and we are quite happy to tell you, or anybody else who asks. Why aren't you?

Leadbetter: I see him as a very thoughtful, useful and interesting Masonic scholar and author. He clearly comes from the esoteric or Moderns form of freemasonry.

Confrontational attitude: No it doesn't. It is deeply frustrating when someone refuses to answer a question on a matter of fact, directly and honestly, for no other reason other than it conflicts with his prejudices, or the prejudices of his colleagues. Truth knows no boundaries as far as I am concerned.

All I asked you was to explain what you meant by "Original masonry". Why are you so frightened by the answer?

[phildee3]

Thank you for clearing up any misunderstanding over the use of the word integrity. As it happens I asked you to say what you believe Freemasonry IS. Integrity is NOT the answer.



So now you are telling me what I believe!!



All I asked you was to explain what you meant by "Original masonry". Why are you so frightened by the answer?



I am not "frightened"!
The answer is complex. It is many things.
Integrity is one of it's foundational premises (imo).
If you can't accept number one on my list, what's the point of going on to number two??

[grandsecretary]

So now you are telling me what I believe!!



I am not "frightened"!
The answer is complex. It is many things.
Integrity is one of it's foundational premises (imo).
If you can't accept number one on my list, what's the point of going on to number two??

Stop being so defensive. Question 1: What IS Freemasonry? The answer cannot possibly be "integrity" because that is a noun, not a descriptive adjective.

If it is "many things" then let's have the list. For instance, not that I am suggesting anything, but an answer like "a social club", or "a fraternity of like minded people" would make sense.

Would it help you if I told you EXACTLY what our system of Free Masonrie IS, and it is not complex?

You see, if you don't answer the question then people might think that you do not know.

And don't forget question 2: What is "Original Masonry"?

[phildee3]

If it is "many things" then let's have the list.



I have other priorities, that would take too long.



For instance, not that I am suggesting anything, but an answer like "a social club", or "a fraternity of like minded people" would make sense.



They're very limited, partial answers.
If my list were that narrow it would take weeks to write!



Would it help you if I told you EXACTLY what our system of Free Masonrie IS, and it is not complex?



You can if you like. It might help you.
I'm fine. Your orders don't apply to me. I am a free-mason.



You see, if you don't answer the question then people might think that you do not know.



I told you before, I don't give a hoot what others think.

I don't let others do my thinking for me.

That's one of the precepts of original masonry.

[humito]

lower degrees of masonry are based on misleading the mason with false mysteries and information and energies .........any masons on here although well meaning will also be spreading false information and can spend a life as a mason ,thinking they are becomming a better person and helping the world without knowing what is really going on at elite levels............

[grandsecretary]

I have other priorities, that would take too long.



They're very limited, partial answers.
If my list were that narrow it would take weeks to write!



You can if you like. It might help you.
I'm fine. Your orders don't apply to me. I am a free-mason.



I told you before, I don't give a hoot what others think.

I don't let others do my thinking for me.

That's one of the precepts of original masonry.

So you don't know then, original or otherwise. I wasn't in a hurry, take a week if you like. Frit stoolless. Embarrassing and quite pathetic.

I can easlly write a concise definition of Original Free Masonrie in about 20 seconds flat.

[phildee3]

lower degrees of masonry are based on misleading the mason with false mysteries and information and energies .........any masons on here although well meaning will also be spreading false information and can spend a life as a mason ,thinking they are becomming a better person and helping the world without knowing what is really going on at elite levels............



To the free-thinker, it doesn't matter what goes on at the elite levels.

The power of the individual exercising self-determination is far greater than any power exerted on the obedient by the elite.

[grandsecretary]

To the free-thinker, it doesn't matter what goes on at the elite levels.

The power of the individual exercising self-determination is far greater than any power exerted on the obedient by the elite.

Puff and wind.

[grandsecretary]

lower degrees of masonry are based on misleading the mason with false mysteries and information and energies .........any masons on here although well meaning will also be spreading false information and can spend a life as a mason ,thinking they are becomming a better person and helping the world without knowing what is really going on at elite levels............

Moderns with their "higher degrees". Could not agree more, and I say that as the former Assistant Grand Secretary General of the "higher degrees" for England and Wales and its Districts and Chapters Overseas.

[phildee3]

Puff and wind.



We'll see.
The days of the tyrants are almost over.

[keystone]

Moderns with their "higher degrees". Could not agree more, and I say that as the former Assistant Grand Secretary General of the "higher degrees" for England and Wales and its Districts and Chapters Overseas.Now you keep saying that UGLE is run by the Supreme Council 33. I am aware that the top lot (Grand Stewards Mafia by all accounts by and large) are members of the 33rd degree but AFAIK only one of the more senior officers of UGLE is actually on the Supreme Council. Otherwise it seems to be made up of nonentities. Can you explain this apparent disconnect please?

Oh and BTW I notice another poster keeps asking your "degree" but doesn't understand your answer. Perhaps it would help him if you could state which degree you held when you were part of the "moderns" organisation. Just a thought.

Oh and BTW - no side issues or traps here from me. I think its important that your readers know.

Cheers

[keystone]

I can easlly write a concise definition of Original Free Masonrie in about 20 seconds flat.You probably have it to hand so 20 seconds might be a bit long. Care to share?

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Now you keep saying that UGLE is run by the Supreme Council 33. I am aware that the top lot (Grand Stewards Mafia by all accounts by and large) are members of the 33rd degree but AFAIK only one of the more senior officers of UGLE is actually on the Supreme Council. Otherwise it seems to be made up of nonentities. Can you explain this apparent disconnect please?

Oh and BTW I notice another poster keeps asking your "degree" but doesn't understand your answer. Perhaps it would help him if you could state which degree you held when you were part of the "moderns" organisation. Just a thought.

Oh and BTW - no side issues or traps here from me. I think its important that your readers know.

Cheers

My answer is simple. We don't have a degree system here.

Your Moderns system is the hirearchical degree system that ensures that you can control everyone. "Do as you are told or no promotion" is the maxim.

When I was at 10 Duke Street, we had dozens of membership cards in our files with NFP written across them in bold red ink. That meant "No further promotion" and it was done on the whim of the Grand Secretary, and totally without reference to anybody. Sometimes I recommended candidates for NFP's. I must have missed you! ;)

I am afraid that you are very much mistaken about where the power lies, although I believe that you work in administration at Great Queen Street. Perhaps you just haven't noticed?

You obviously don't know who is or who is not a member of the Supreme Council and the history of ex-Grand Secretaries of the Rite who went on to become the Grand Secretary of the Craft (practically all of them, if not, in fact, all of them).

Certainly the Grand Master, The Duke of Kent, and the Deputy Grand Master, Peter Lowndes, are members of Supreme Council (please give Peter my regards by the way. I knew him very well when he was the Grand Director of Ceremonies at 10 Duke Street), as is the Duke of Kent's brother, Prince Michael, who is also the Grand Master of all of the Mark Degrees.

It is THE power house of Moderns freemasonry in England, of that there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever. All of the main players are members of the Supreme Council 33rd degree of the Ancient and Accepted Rite. The most worrying thing is that it is subordinate to the Ancient and Accepted Rite, Northern Jurisdiction, United States of America.

This is from memory:

I was an 18th degree Mason Ancient and Accepted Rite Mason in England and a 33rd degree Sovereign Grand Inspector General in the Collège des Écossais in France.

Prior to my resignation I was employed as Assistant Grand Secretary General in England in the Ancient and Accepted Rite for England and Wales and its Chapters and Districts Overseas with responsibility for membership and Computer systems.

I worked closely alongside Jack Daniel the Grand Secretary General and regularly deputised for him, handling his general correspondence. This meant that I responded to his correspondence on his behalf and under his signature on all matters within Supreme Council policy.

I was also a resident Tyler at 10 Duke Street.

I was a Grand Officer in London, in the Craft, the Royal Arch, the Mark, the Knights Templar, The Red Cross of Constantine (plus Yorkshire). Most of my Lodges were premier lodges. I can't remember them all, but I was a London Grand Officer in a number of the other rites and degrees.

I was an active member of 24 Masonic units in all and a Lodge Secretary in most of them, including a Secretary in both Jubilee Masters and London First Principals Chapter, for a number of years working out the offices of The London Grand Rank Association at headquarters in Great Queen Street.

For some considerable time I was also the personal adviser to Bob Rowlands the Supreme Magus (Grand Master) of the Society of Rosicrucians in England, etc., etc., etc.

I was a travelling lecturer, and a representative for the New Masonic Samaritan Fund where I deputised for Lord Northampton on three or four occasions.

I can't remember the rest but it was hell on wheels.

[keystone]

My answer is simple. We don't have a degree system here.OK but thats really sort of lame isn't compared with the obvious extrapolation of your remarks.

Your Moderns system is the hirearchical degree system that ensures that you can control everyone. "Do as you are told or no promotion" is the maxim.Did I not tell you already I don't give a shit? (Apologies for my French)

When I was at 10 Duke Street, we had dozens of membership cards in our files with NFP written across them in bold red ink. That meant "No further promotion" and it was done on the whim of the Grand Secrertary, and totally without reference to anybody.Ditto. It really is about time that this system was dumped or seriously amended well and truly.

I am afraid that you are very much mistaken about where the power lies,What power? Over promotions? Oh Ha Ha. Most people reading this are very probably expecting the old "power to take over the world" stuff.

although I believe that you work in administration at Great Queen Street.No - I don't why would you say that. You are quite wrong. You really want to know what I do to earn my crust? I'm self employed in the construction industry.

Perhaps you just haven't noticed?You are correct for the reason stated above.

You obviously don't know who is or who is not a members of the Supreme CouncilYes I am fully aware of who the current members of the Supreme Council are thanks including the latest appointee.

and the history of ex-Grand Secretaries of the Rite who went on to become the Grand Secretary of the Craft (practically all of them, if not, in fact, all of them).No I did not know that. Does that apply to the present incumbent?

Certainly the Grand Master is a member of Supreme Council, as is his brother who is also the Grand Master of all of the Mark Degrees.Yes - they are members of the 33 degree but that doesn't automatically include membership of Supreme Council. You know that as well as I do - there are (and can only be) nine members of Supreme Council but over 150 members of the 33rd degree in England and Wales. The Grand Master is, I believe, an honorary member of Supreme Council, but that doesn't make him an actual member.

It is THE power house of Moderns freemasonry in England, of that there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever.Haven't you got anything more meaty than the "promotions" thingy. I am actually quite disappointed.

The most worrying thing is that it is subordinate to the Ancient and Accepted Rite, Northern Jurisdiction, United States of America.My researches tell me that it certtainly dervies its authority from there but is it truly subordinate? If so - yes that might be worrying.

This is from memory:

I was an 18th degree Mason Ancient and Accepted Rite Mason in England and a 33rd degree Sovereign Grand Inspector General in the Collège des Écossais in France.

Prior to my resignation I was employed as Assistant Grand Secretary General in England in the Ancient and Accepted Rite for England and Wales and its Chapters and Districts Overseas with responsibility for membership and Computer systems.

I worked closely alongside Jack Daniel the Grand Secretary General and regularly deputised for him, handling his general correspondence. This meant that I responded to his correspondence on his behalf and under his signature on all matters within Supreme Council policy.

I was also a resident Tyler at 10 Duke Street.

I was a Grand Officer in London, in the Craft, the Royal Arch, the Mark, the Knights Templar, The Red Cross of Constantine (plus Yorkshire). Most of my Lodges were premier lodges. I can't remember them all, but I was a Grand Officer in a number of the other rites and degrees.

I was an active member of 24 Masonic units in all and a Lodge Secretary in most of them, including a Secretary in both Jubilee Masters and London First Principals Chapter, for a number of years working out the offices of The London Grand Rank Association.

For some considerable time I was also the personal adviser to Bob Rowlands the Supreme Magus (Grand Master) of the Society of Rosicrucians in England, etc., etc., etc.

I was a travelling lecturer, and a representative for the New Masonic Samaritan Fund where I deputised for Lord Northampton on three or four occasions.

I can't remember the rest but it was hell on wheels.Thanks - hope that will help your other questionner but I really didn't expect a full bio lol. I guess 18th would have satisfied him. Thanks anyway.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

You probably have it to hand so 20 seconds might be a bit long. Care to share?

Cheers

Oh certainly no problem as far as we are concerned.

What is Free Masonrie

Free Masonrie is an organisation where all men are called to the Priesthood, inspired by God, to instruct men.

It is the centre and source from which radiates the whole system of organized civil and ecclesiastical knowledge and practice, exerting a high standard of religion, justice and patriotism, and a code of moral teaching that will never cease to influence national character.

Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie cannot be separated from its religious context, which has existed since time immemorial. The religious context of genuine Free Masonrie remains an essential mark of the true Free Mason.

It must be stated clearly, that an atheist cannot become a Free Mason, and no regular Lodge or regular Grand Lodge would even consider initiating any man who does not believe in one God, Creator and Preserver of all things, and the immortality of Souls.

Pure and genuine Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie is religious. Its religion has its roots firmly planted in the pre-Davidic Ancient Priesthoods. As the servants of God, we hold a true belief in one God, Creator and Preserver of all things, and the immortality of Souls.

If he wishes to partake of Masonry in its Original Purity, he will turn his attention to that source, where it hath been Inviolably maintained and continued for Successive Ages to this Day, and where the Legislature of Masonry for this Kingdom stands fixed by its true Title, "The Grand Lodge of All England", Established at the City of York. (SOURCE: Website of The Grand Lodge at York)

[grandsecretary]

I am sorry but we simply do not do not support, control or manage a system of Masonic ranks, whether honorary or past.

All of our members are Fellows of the Craft of Free Masonrie and are all full and equal members of the Grand Lodge at York. If you can't understand that then I can't help you very much more.

Stop minimising what I posted. They have you all by the jojones, and are fully prepared to squeeze, its not just promotions, but it is all to do with international regal power and heavy political influence. The Duke of Kent is the Queen's representative for goodness sake and he has the job for life.

There are only 33 x 33rd degree Masons in England and they are ALL members of the Supreme Council. Nine full time but the rest may attend and are all kept fully informed about what is going on. In fact on a daily basis. They are ALL Craft Masons packing the committees and exerting considerable influence at Great Queen Street

Prince Michael (royalty) was a regular attender when I was there, as was Lord Northampton (royalty), James Daniel, Canon Richard Tydeman (High Church), Richard Sandbach, Lord Swansea, Sir James Stubbs, Philip Ashley Mann, The Reverend Michael Morgan, Jeremy Pemberton the President of The Board of General Purposes, Sir Herbert Tetley (Tetley's Breweries).

You have the current list, why are you asking me whether or not your present Grand Secretary is a 33rd degree member of Supreme Council? How would I know?

What I do know, and have no doubt about is that it is packed with the most powerful Moderns Craft freemasons in the land and they wield absolute control over you, and the authority to spend (waste) millions and millions of pounds of your money, living practically scot free, and buying all sorts of influence.

It stinks (and I saw what was going on there I can assure you). It is a total corruption of what free Masonrie should be. Thank God I got out when I did. I should have done it 20 years earlier, and I am thoroughly ashamed that I didn't.

But like you, I saw it but wouldn't see it, and I did absolutely diddly squat about it. When I tried I was told to keep my mouth shut. Bad move! They didn't know me very well did they?

[keystone]

I am sorry but we simply do not do not support, control or manage a system of Masonic ranks, whether honorary or past.

All of our members are Fellows of the Craft of Free Masonrie and are all full and equal members of the Grand Lodge at York.

Thats fine by me, I'm not bothered anyway. Thats not really the point though. I was beginning to think you had some revealing scuttlebutt to impart about power of the 33rd degree and the abuse thereof as frequently mentioned by others on this forum who have no experience or actual knowledge. You were sort of giving that impression.

Cheers

[keystone]

Oh certainly no problem as far as we are concerned.Thanks. Oh and BTW and apropos of nothing did you notice the news today that GODF have voted a) not to initiate women as freemasons and b) not to allow those who already are to affiliate.

Cheers

[decim]

GS a couple of questions in relation to the words I have bolded & underlined from your previous post.

Firstly, as you describe yourself called to the "Priesthood", can you relate how a Man can redeem himself in relation to past wrongdoings & transgressions?
Also whom to address this desire for redemption unto?

Secondly, "Patriotism" of which I would like to think I contain a considerable amount.
How can it be that the Duke of Kent & the Supreme Council can allow this Kingdom to become what appears to be usurped by the EU?
Are there 'greater' powers at work?

What is Free Masonrie

Free Masonrie is an organisation where all men are called to the Priesthood, inspired by God, to instruct men.

It is the centre and source from which radiates the whole system of organized civil and ecclesiastical knowledge and practice, exerting a high standard of religion, justice and patriotism, and a code of moral teaching that will never cease to influence national character.

[keystone]

I am sorry but we simply do not do not support, control or manage a system of Masonic ranks, whether honorary or past.

All of our members are Fellows of the Craft of Free Masonrie and are all full and equal members of the Grand Lodge at York. If you can't understand that then I can't help you very much more.No I do understand that and said thank you before yopu modified the post.

Stop minimising what I posted.I'm not minimising what you posted at all I'm responding to it.

They have you all by the jojones, and are fully prepared to squeeze, its not just promotions, but it is all to do with international regal power and heavy political influence.So you do have something.

The Duke of Kent is the Queen's representative for goodness sake and he has the job for life.Yes I know that.

There are only 33 x 33rd degree Masons in England and they are ALL members of the Supreme Council.OK perhaps we have a terminology issue here. I meant 9 Officers of SC when I said members. Why was the Duke Of Kent made an Honoray Member after he received his 33rd a year or so ago - by your definition it was automatic.

You have the current list, why are you asking me whether or not your present Grand Secretary is a 33rd degree member of Supreme Council? How would I know?Well you said "all". Hes been GS for nearly two years. He received the 33 degree only just recently. Its a matter of record not insider knowledge.

What I do know, and have no doubt is that it is packed with the most powerful Moderns Craft freemasons in the land and they wield absolute control over you, and the authority to spend millions and millions of pounds of your money,Yes I know. Not at all happy at it being run as a business and not that happy that they jet all over the world (presumably first class) on masonic business. However I think what you are saying is that the those that run GQS also happen to be 33rd degree so all run around to Duke Street for cosy little chats. Thats clearly not the same as saying that GQS is run from Duke Street which is how I've interpreted what you have said previously.

living practically scot free,Whoops - thats potentially an accusation of fraud if masonic funds are being misappropriated for ordinary living expenses.

and buying all sorts of influence.Masonically or in other areas?

Cheers

[keystone]

How can it be that the Duke of Kent & the Supreme Council can allow this Kingdom to become what appears to be usurped by the EU?It might possibly be that they don't have the power after all that everyone says they have.

Cheers

[decim]

"might possibly" not also.

It might possibly be that they don't have the power after all that everyone says they have.

Cheers

[keystone]

"might possibly" not also.I can't use the term "also" because I do not know 100%. I was hoping that GS would enlighten us. His answer says it is a "probably not" so I used "might possibly" on a CYA basis.

Cheers

[decim]

I can accept that you say you don't know.

I can't use the term "also" because I do not know 100%. I was hoping that GS would enlighten us. His answer says it is a "probably not" so I used "might possibly" on a CYA basis.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Thanks. Oh and BTW and apropos of nothing did you notice the news today that GODF have voted a) not to initiate women as freemasons and b) not to allow those who already are to affiliate.

Cheers

I am sure that this will cause a breakaway.

[grandsecretary]

Well you said "all". Hes been GS for nearly two years. He received the 33 degree only just recently. Its a matter of record not insider knowledge.

Well then what did he have to do to get it?

Look, it is obvious that you aren't interested so lets call it a day shall we.

The main point is made. The Supreme Council is the Hanoverian royal connection, and that is what it is all about. No power? You must be joking. This is where they exercise their extra parliamentary influence in just about every sphere that you can imagine.

[boots]

It might possibly be that they don't have the power after all that everyone says they have.

Cheers

They do. You should know. Dont they spend millions of masonic money on themselves? Oh just for the good of masonry off course .

They dont give a fuck about the UK or the EU. It's about a NWO.


I got to admit GS seems clued up on nefarious activities concerning TPTB.

.

[decim]

Have you read anything by Julius Evola?

They do. You should know. Dont they spend millions of masonic money on themselves? Oh just for the good of masonry off course .

They dont give a fuck about the UK or the EU. It's about a NWO.


.

[boots]

Have you read anything by Julius Evola?

No I haven't decim. Care to give a summary?

.

[decim]

I don't possess the typing ability for adequate summaries.
The reason I mention he, is that the EU, today forming, has an uncanny resemblance to Mr Evola's theories of a 'united Europe'

Here is a link to some of his writings.
http://www.juliusevola.com/julius_evola/writings.html

No I haven't decim. Care to give a summary?

.

[boots]

I don't possess the typing ability for adequate summaries.
The reason I mention he, is that the EU, today forming, has an uncanny resemblance to Mr Evola's theories of a 'united Europe'

Here is a link to some of his writings.
http://www.juliusevola.com/julius_evola/writings.html


I did a search and had a brief gander at what he's about.
He was a firm believer in the Nationalist party of Germany. A one political system which is now coming to fruition in a united Europe.