this site is pro masonry

[decim]

He didn't subscribe to AH's racism though & apparently criticised Mussolini for tagging along with the NSDAP.

I did a search and had a brief gander at what he's about.
He was a firm believer in the Nationalist party of Germany. A one political system which is now coming to fruition in a united Europe.

[boots]

He didn't subscribe to AH's racism though & apparently criticised Mussolini for tagging along with the NSDAP.

He just seem to me be a dualiist, in the sense that he is just one side of a coin called NWO.

[decim]

Exactly.
Hence the EU.

He just seem to me be a dualiist, in the sense that he is just one side of a coin called NWO.

[thirdwave]

He didn't subscribe to AH's racism though & apparently criticised Mussolini for tagging along with the NSDAP.

in other words he knows the Nazi party has a rightfully sour name, so tells people he is not like them and its up to people to believe him or to work out he is just a nazi lying..

[phildee3]

What is Free Masonrie

Free Masonrie is an organisation where all men are called to the Priesthood, inspired by God, to instruct men.

It is the centre and source from which radiates the whole system of organized civil and ecclesiastical knowledge and practice, exerting a high standard of religion, justice and patriotism, and a code of moral teaching that will never cease to influence national character.



This is pretty good.
I don't think that original freemasonry was too concerned about patriotism though. It is much too visionary to care about national boundaries. Personal character I'd say and, as a result, the character of the community.

"Called to the priesthood" suggests that self-discipline is primary to civic duty.

[keystone]

Well then what did he have to do to get it?The very thought went through my mind when I read it.

Look, it is obvious that you aren't interested so lets call it a day shall we.How so? Not true. Totally interested. No lets NOT call it a day please. There are other points in my post you haven't addressed.

The main point is made.But not completely and not in my opinion.

The Supreme Council is the Hanoverian royal connection, and that is what it is all about. No power? You must be joking. This is where they exercise their extra parliamentary influence in just about every sphere that you can imagine.So you say. Now as someone who only deals in verifiable facts (as you so often say) I would have thought you would be in a position to back up your allegations with evidence. No I'm not being clever. If this lot are up to no good I really do want to know. You have no idea how close I am to voting with my feet.

Cheers

[keystone]

They do. You should know.Well I don't and I would like to one way or the other.

Dont they spend millions of masonic money on themselves?Only because GS said so a few posts ago but he hasn't backed it up. I suspect millions is an exaggeration but I take the point. Is GS alleging fraud or not? He didn't answer my earlier question in relation to this.

They dont give a fuck about the UKThen they would be behaving contrary to the Charge After Initiation - you can find it on teh interwebz.

........or the EU.Ha - neither do I.

It's about a NWO.Yes possibly. I want evidence.

I got to admit GS seems clued up on nefarious activities concerning TPTB.That may be so in which case then being on the David Icke Forum is a first class opportunity to tell.

Cheers

[keystone]

I don't possess the typing ability for adequate summaries.
The reason I mention he, is that the EU, today forming, has an uncanny resemblance to Mr Evola's theories of a 'united Europe'

Here is a link to some of his writings.
http://www.juliusevola.com/julius_evola/writings.htmlMmm - thanks.

From that site:

United Europe: The Spiritual Prerequisite

The first political step in forging a united Europe would be the withdrawal of all European governments from the United Nations, a hypocritical organisation if there ever was.

The ground for a European initiative must be carefully prepared; but the problems of concrete political tactics fall outside the scope of this essay. Here we can only point to what we believe must be the form and the spiritual and doctrinal basis of united Europe.

'Federalist' and 'associative' solutions, economic and military co-operation— these are all the manifestation of presuppositions about the organic character of Europe (or the lack of it). The condition of a truly European entity must be the binding force of an idea and tradition with which Europe is irrevocably linked. Some argue that the nation state, being not divinely ordained but the creation of determined groups successfully rising to a historical challenge, is a model for the merging European nation. According to this view the spiritual precondition for a united Europe exists in the myth of a common destiny defended by the 'national revolutionary' groups of Europe. This view is inadequate. The birth of the European nations was largely the work of dynasties representing a tradition of loyalty to a particular crown. In any case, the factors which created the European nations have been the very ones which have maintained European disunity from the Hundred Years War to the present day.

Among those who possess a spiritual and traditional understanding of Europe we can distinguish between those who believe in an Imperium of the kind referred to above, and those who talk of Europe as a nation. The concept of nationhood is in my opinion inappropriate. The notion of European unity is spiritual and supranational. Homeland nation, ethnic group subsist at an essentially naturalistic 'physical' level. Europe (Europa una) should be something more than this. The old nationalisms and resentments are only grafted onto Europe when a particular national domination is imposed by one nation upon the rest of Europe. The European Imperium will belong to a higher order than the parts which compose it, and to be European should be conceived as being something qualitatively different from being Italian, Prussian, Basque, Finnish, Scottish or Hungarian, something which appeals to a different aspect of our character. A European nation implies the levelling and cancelling of all 'rival' nations in or beyond Europe.

So far as 'European culture' is concerned it is these days the stamping-ground of the pragmatic European, the liberal, humanist intellectual. His 'European culture' is an appendage of 'democracy' and the 'Free World'. In this sense 'culture' is the stock-in-trade of the so-called 'aristocrat of thought', in reality the clothing of the parvenu, his badge of success. A genuine aristocracy of the intellect would not in any case be adequate for the task in hand; the re-animation of the European will and the sustaining of a revolutionary elite who could make this a political possibility. What is more, every time that we try to give the notion of 'European culture' concrete significance, we seem to run up against innumerable 'interpretations' which leave us with nothing conclusive at all. Everyone has their own idea about what European culture is and many Europeans feel reticent or even guilty about championing it and so the parvenus can speculate to their hearts' content in the reviews and colour supplements about all the latest developments in this or that field of art in such a way that 'culture' becomes entirely divorced from the 'serious world', from what matters. Ironically, much of what the defenders of culture admire plays a major role in helping to bring about a spiritual crisis and lack of confidence in European culture.

The 'Westernisation' of the world has meant that this decomposition extends across the world—thus Europe, from illuminism to communism has become the breeding ground of the very forces which work to destroy everything which is specifically European.

We must create a 'unity of fighters'. That is a pre-requisite. To set a vision of the world and of Europe aside as 'irrelevant' would be to sink into the morass of political partisan politics, a cynical affair without identity, without spiritual meaning. A united Europe, without a communal spiritual identity and sense of direction would become just one more power bloc. In what way would such a United States of Europe be spiritually distinct from the United States of America or China or be anything nobler than the organisation of African Unity? Europe must not be a stage towards the Westernisation of the world but a move against it, in fact a revolt against the modern world in favour of what is nobler, higher, more truly human.


So GS how does this fit in?

Cheers

PS Where's our bloody referendum Broon?

[keystone]

@ GS

You said to Phildee:

How dare you call into question my integrity you Nazi.

He didn't, it was you failed to understand and misinterpreted what he was saying and IMHO you should apologise for that comment. But thats only my opinion.

Cheers

[keystone]

..........Sometimes I recommended candidates for NFP's. I must have missed you! ;)You have no idea how happy that makes me even if it was a rather sneaky add-in to your post after the event. :)

Cheers

[humito]

GS has proved himself time and again to be a fraud IMO

[nihil]

GS Quote:
No power? You must be joking. This is where they exercise their extra parliamentary influence in just about every sphere that you can imagine.

KS Quote:
So you say. Now as someone who only deals in verifiable facts (as you...) I would have thought you would be in a position to back up your allegations with evidence.

In this reply KeyS did score a good point on the quest for truth...
GrandS should provide facts, just facts .

Regarding Julius Evola and his view on Europe... do you think he could agree with the europe that includes everyone who's simply able to manipulate the Euro as national money ??

This is a financial europe . nothing more than that .

In Ride the Tiger J.Evola exposed the sickness of Europe, as we see today a growing bunch of populations that should be the organic parts of a whole - a economic whole .

I don't think that Evola could agree with this EEC . Never .

[keystone]

In Ride the Tiger J.Evola exposed the sickness of Europe, as we see today.I will read it - thanks.

Cheers

[nihil]

A nihilistic society is into the agenda of NWO, Traditionalists as Evola fought against the loss of values into the modern world . Even if his views are not mine, he was closer to the truth than many other contemporary progressists and illuminists .

[boots]

Well I don't and I would like to one way or the other.

Ok would you agree that money is power? And authorities have power?

Take the royal family, they are the richest landholder in the world and one of the wealthiest owners of stocks and companies.


Only because GS said so a few posts ago but he hasn't backed it up. I suspect millions is an exaggeration but I take the point. Is GS alleging fraud or not? He didn't answer my earlier question in relation to this.

Yeah maybe "millions" is a bit over the top. but they are using money that could be used on charities. We have a telecommunication system that allows for communicate in an instant. Saves time and money and the enviroment.


Then they would be behaving contrary to the Charge After Initiation - you can find it on teh interwebz.

No doubt. Has that ever stopped anyone who see's huge amounts of cash and power from getting their finger's in the pie?

The higher up's belong to and believe in the Think Tanks ie CFR, Trilateral commission, The Club of Roman and Bilderberg.


Ha - neither do I.

But the UK is being forced into it against the will of the people. That must make you think.


Yes possibly. I want evidence.

OK you can check this thread out. It's balanced.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76546

They have been talking about this for eons.


That may be so in which case then being on the David Icke Forum is a first class opportunity to tell.

Cheers

Yeah it would be nice if the guy could spill his gut's on what what his know's.

[decim]

Yes 'Synarchism' is close to what is developing with the eu, overt & occult.

A nihilistic society is into the agenda of NWO, Traditionalists as Evola fought against the loss of values into the modern world . Even if his views are not mine, he was closer to the truth than many other contemporary progressists and illuminists .

[phildee3]

Ok would you agree that money is power? And authorities have power?

Take the royal family, they are the richest landholder in the world and one of the wealthiest owners of stocks and companies.



Money is not power.
It doesn't give you real power.
If it did then they wouldn't need all those fancy titles and medals and stuff.
Why do they need all that?
It's a psy-op to intimidate us into feeling inferior so that we give them power by serving them!

They don't have any power except that which we allow them to have!

[grandsecretary]

keystone there are many examples of your funds being wasted under very dubious circumstances. Here are just three examples:

1) The sale of the Masonic School for Boys in Wood Green, a scandal;

2) The sale of The Royal Masonic Hospital in Ravenscourt Park London, with the loss of many millions of pounds, a bigger scandal;

3) The misappropriation of Charity Funds in The Province of Yorkshire where large sums of monies raised strictly for charitable purpose was diverted for unauthorised purposes to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds, and over a number of years. (I have copies of the reports of the Charity Commission if you want them).

[grandsecretary]

GS has proved himself time and again to be a fraud IMO

This is actionable but of course humito is just a gutless anonymous slithery blob who hides in the vipers nest with his green eyed reptilian cosa nostra.

[grandsecretary]

The very thought went through my mind when I read it.

How so? Not true. Totally interested. No lets NOT call it a day please. There are other points in my post you haven't addressed.

But not completely and not in my opinion.

So you say. Now as someone who only deals in verifiable facts (as you so often say) I would have thought you would be in a position to back up your allegations with evidence. No I'm not being clever. If this lot are up to no good I really do want to know. You have no idea how close I am to voting with my feet.

Cheers

I have seen the minutes of the meetings keystone. I KNOW what goes on at 10 Duke Street.

The members of the Supreme Council are the most powerful Christian (CofE) members of the Craft, working with the influence and support of the Pro Grand Master, Assistant Grand Master, Deputy Grand Master, Grand Secretary, and many more, with DIRECT support and influence from the Hanoverian Royal Family in the persons of the Queen's representative, The Duke of Kent, and his brother Prince Michael.

Members of Supreme Council are promoted to the 33rd degree for a reason. What do you think that is?

[phildee3]

This is actionable



Nope!

"IMO" makes it not so.

Humito could have your garters for guts!

[nihil]

What do you think that is?


A plethora of representatives of Saxon Mafia ???

[phildee3]

Members of Supreme Council are promoted to the 33rd degree for a reason. What do you think that is?



I know why it isn't.

It isn't because they have earned it!

It's a sham.
A mockery of, and a disgrace to, true masonry.

[grandsecretary]

Nope!

"IMO" makes it not so.

Humito could have your garters for guts!

Oink flap, oink flap, oink flap.

You missed bits out:

This is actionable but of course humito is just a gutless anonymous slithery blob who hides in the vipers nest with his green eyed reptilian cosa nostra.

Back to the viper's nest. Your slithery companion needs you at home. He wants you to help him to eat your sister.

[grandsecretary]

I know why it isn't.

It isn't because they have earned it!

It's a sham.
A mockery of, and a disgrace to, true masonry.

So Mote it Be! At last. Message getting through.

[phildee3]

Oink flap, oink flap, oink flap.



You need to wake up, mate.
Henry VIII's crimes are coming back on all of those who profit from them.

[foobar]

Can somebody please give me a beginners', outline view of the pre-Davidic order which King Athelstan joined, which is somehow linked to the druids.

Is this anglo-saxon order from a common root as the druids, or are we talking about an Anglo-saxon king assimilating a tradition of the indigenous britons ?

When the term 'pre-Davidic' is used, is this a way of saying that this order is related to the ancient lost tribes of Israel, some of whom are thought (by some) to have migrated into Western Europe? a la 'British Israelism' ?

Thanks.

[grandsecretary]

It comes from the common root of Druidism, which itself came to Britain from a pre-Davidic Middle East. Pre-Davidic. That is David. You know, the one with the star, The Star of David.

See here for a beginners guide, you will need to read both pages:

http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=30

http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=50

[dolores1]

So Mote it Be! At last. Message getting through.


Says everything!

[phildee3]

It comes from the common root of Druidism, which itself came to Britain from a pre-Davidic Middle East. Pre-Davidic. That is David. You know, the one with the star, The Star of David.



:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Yes, we know!

True masonry is pre-Abramic!! (that is, Abraham - you know, the one who went along with child sacrifice).
Remember - "time immemorial"??

[foobar]

It comes from the common root of Druidism, which itself came to Britain from a pre-Davidic Middle East. Pre-Davidic. That is David. You know, the one with the star, The Star of David.

See here for a beginners guide, you will need to read both pages:

http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=30

http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=50

Thank you, those links are very interesting, but they mostly talk about the history from the Culdees as 'celtic christians' onward. Could you point me at the sources you draw on to link the culdees with druids, and the druids with the ancient near east ?

[keystone]

Ok would you agree that money is power?No not necessarily equivalent.

And authorities have power?Yes.

Take the royal family, they are the richest landholder in the world and one of the wealthiest owners of stocks and companies.Agree

Yeah maybe "millions" is a bit over the top. but they are using money that could be used on charities.If that is what GS is implying which he hasn;t confirmed yet.

We have a telecommunication system that allows for communicate in an instant. Saves time and money and the enviroment.Indeed.

No doubt. Has that ever stopped anyone who see's huge amounts of cash and power from getting their finger's in the pie?But when they have a

The higher up's belong to and believe in the Think Tanks ie CFR, Trilateral commission, The Club of Roman and Bilderberg.If that is the case with the "higher ups" in UGLE and they are using their membership of/position in freemasonry to promote political or business agendas then theybring the institution into disrepute IMO.

But the UK is being forced into it against the will of the people. That must make you think.No it doesn't make me think one bit. Its wrong and I made up my mind that its wrong a long time ago. I just hope the Irish vote No again. Theres zero chance of the UK government giving the people the referendum they promised now is there.

OK you can check this thread out. It's balanced.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76546

They have been talking about this for eons.Thanks. I'll have a browse later.

Yeah it would be nice if the guy could spill his gut's on what what his know's.Lets see.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

foobar: This might be of interest:

http://www.magick7.com/FreeBooks/0029/IrishDruidsOldIrishReligions.html#STONE-WORSHIP.

[grandsecretary]

If that is what GS is implying which he hasn;t confirmed yet.


Oh yes he has, see post #268

Misappropriation of charity funds used for unauthorised purposes over an extended period of several years.

Hundreds of thousands of pounds.

[keystone]

keystone there are many examples of your funds being wasted under very dubious circumstances. Here are just three examples:

1) The sale of the Masonic School for Boys in Wood Green, a scandal;

2) The sale of The Royal Masonic Hospital in Ravenscourt Park London, with the loss of many millions of pounds, a bigger scandal;

3) The misappropriation of Charity Funds in The Province of Yorkshire where large sums of monies raised strictly for charitable purpose was diverted for unauthorised purposes to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds, and over a number of years. (I have copies of the reports of the Charity Commission if you want them).

Thank you. The School is before my time but I have understood it closed to to lack of numbers. In what way was it a scandal? I think the sale of the Hospital was inevitable in the final analysis. It wasn't financially viable. Whether the problems / controversy were handled particularly well is a different matter entirely. Yes I would say that it was scandalous. I have some knowledge of the Yorkshire episode already thanks.

But this is all beside the point. You inferred that members money was being misappropriated to fund lavish lifestyles outside of masonic duties and thats what I'm seeking clarifiaction of. Or did I misunderstand you?

Cheers

[keystone]

I have seen the minutes of the meetings keystone. I KNOW what goes on at 10 Duke Street.Well that, I think, is the point. What does go on?

The members of the Supreme Council are the most powerful Christian (CofE) members of the Craft, working with the influence and support of the Pro Grand Master, Assistant Grand Master, Deputy Grand Master, Grand Secretary, and many more, with DIRECT support and influence from the Hanoverian Royal Family in the persons of the Queen's representative, The Duke of Kent, and his brother Prince Michael.To do what exactly?

Members of Supreme Council are promoted to the 33rd degree for a reason. What do you think that is?Oh go on do tell. It must be in the minutes.

Cheers

[keystone]

A plethora of representatives of Saxon Mafia ???:)

[keystone]

Oink flap, oink flap, oink flap.That was funny the first time you posted it some weeks ago. Lost its effect now. :rolleyes:

Cheers

[keystone]

Says everything!Sorry - not with you. Could you explain what you mean? Thanks.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Thank you. The School is before my time but I have understood it closed to to lack of numbers. In what way was it a scandal? I think the sale of the Hospital was inevitable in the final analysis. It wasn't financially viable. Whether the problems / controversy were handled particularly well is a different matter entirely. Yes I would say that it was scandalous. I have some knowledge of the Yorkshire episode already thanks.

But this is all beside the point. You inferred that members money was being misappropriated to fund lavish lifestyles outside of masonic duties and thats what I'm seeking clarifiaction of. Or did I misunderstand you?

Cheers

You obviously know nothing about any of the items listed. Do your research.

The scandal at the Masonic School for Boys was how it was disposed of. Who authorised the sale. Who bought it, and the price paid for it.

Similarly, the Hospital scandal, which is very well known, includes who was allowed on to the Board of the Hospital, how it was disposed of, the financials where a firm offer for around £22M pounds was received and rejected and then it was sold for £2M within a matter of weeks, and who bought it. The sale was heavily influenced by the Mason who had the undertaking contract at the hospital, and who was also allowed on the Board of Directors.

The report of the Charity Commission lists unauthorised expenditure, including what may only be described as lavish travel and hotel expenses.

Ask Toby Luper for the full details. He is one of yours, a member of a Leeds Lodge.

It was his brother, a good friend of mine, John Luper, who exposed these frauds and was soon found murdered in his home on the night of February 16th 2004. he had been badly beaten and choked to death with a jam jar which had been forced down his throat. In fact, just before the report of the Charity Commission was leaked to the press.

The murder has never been solved.

[keystone]

Oh yes he has, see post #268Oh no he hasn't I was and still am referring to this specifically:

............living practically scot free, and buying all sorts of influence..............

So?.....

Misappropriation of charity funds used for unauthorised purposes over an extended period of several years.

Hundreds of thousands of pounds.What unauthorised purposes outwith that you have already mentioned (school, hospital etc)?

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Already posted a reply. Postings crossed. keystone, as it is your business, I would be happy to send you a copy of the leaked report of the Charity Commission if you would like to see it.

[keystone]

You obviously know nothing about any of the items listed. Do your research.Don't you damned well patronise me thank you.

I already said I knew nothing about the school and asked for further information not this:

The scandal at the Masonic School for Boys was how it was disposed of. Who authorised the sale. Who bought it, and the price paid for it.

I don't know, please enlighten us.

Similarly, the Hospital scandal, which is very well known, includes who was allowed on to the Board of the Hospital, How it was disposed of, and the financials where a firm offer for around £22M pounds was offered and rejected and then it was sold for £2M within a matter of weeks.Yes I know and I agreed it was scandalous - didn't I?

The report of the Charity Commission lists unauthorised expenditure, including what may only be described as lavish travel and hotel expenses.But we are specifically talking about what you know happens in Duke Street and Great Queen Street. Please don't avoid the issue.

It was his brother, a good friend of mine, John Luper, who exposed these frauds and was soon found murdered in his home on the night of February 16th 2004. In fact, just before the report of the Charity Commission was leaked to the press.

The murder has never been solved.I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I found some info here (http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/Tycoon39s-widow-wins-headstone-court.1250275.jp). Are you suggesting that there is a link between this unsolved murder and the Yorkshire Charity case?

Cheers

[keystone]

Already posted a reply. Postings crossed. keystone, as it is your business, I would be happy to send you a copy of the leaked report of the Charity Commission if you would like to see it.Sorry to which one have you replied? :confused: :( :).

Cheers

[keystone]

I would be happy to send you a copy of the leaked report of the Charity Commission if you would like to see it.Do you mean this (http://www.wrprovince.co.uk/News_Items/West%20Riding%20Masonic%20Charities%20Limited%20-%20Statement%20of%20Inquiry.pdf)?

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

No. I mean the one by the man who released it because he was summarily sacked, he says, in an attempt to surpress the truth.

He claimed that pressure had been applied to The Charity Commission not to release his report because he refused to make certain changes.

What you have is the redacted report penned by his successor at The Commission. The unofficial one is quite specific and devastating.

Even this one is very carefully worded where current expenditure was used to repay the Charity Fund. In other words Peter paid Peter, but Paul picked up the tab.

My report is 12 pages long. It names names.

I am quite happy to send you a copy.

As ar as The Royal Masonic Hospital is concerned the record is public and it is a scandal:

Although most businessmen keep their Freemasonry secret, a few openly admit it. Sir Michael Richardson, chairman of the stockbroker Smith New Court and adviser to many powerful businessmen including Lord King and Lord Hanson, is one. In the mid-1980s, when Sir Michael was managing director of N M Rothschild, he tried unsuccessfully to sell the Royal Masonic Hospital in Hammersmith against the wishes of the many rank-and-file Masons, in a celebrated battle that ended in the High Court.

This will give you flavour:

See: http://groups.google.com/group/uk.local.essex/browse_thread/thread/4935b9962d601d42/88d4fc33ac839e8b

[boots]

No not necessarily equivalent.

Yes it is :) Maybe a quote from Mayer A Rothschild would help.

"Give me control of a nation's money
and I care not who makes the laws."

Hang on.... isn't law the cornerstone of society.

Yes.

See above

Agree

:cool: See above

If that is what GS is implying which he hasn;t confirmed yet.

Thats for him to debate. I think he has answered in some way??

Indeed.

SO no need to go gallivanting around the world wasting charity money

But when they have a

What? A boner???:D

If that is the case with the "higher ups" in UGLE and they are using their membership of/position in freemasonry to promote political or business agendas then theybring the institution into disrepute IMO.

"they" are not just Freemasons you know. "they" work for an agenda, which is not in the best interests of humanity or we wouldn't be in this pile of shit now.

No it doesn't make me think one bit. Its wrong and I made up my mind that its wrong a long time ago. I just hope the Irish vote No again. Theres zero chance of the UK government giving the people the referendum they promised now is there.

There's your NWO right there. Unfortunately they will get the Irish vote. It may take a year or so but they'll get what they want.

Thanks. I'll have a browse later.

OK Let's see how that fit's in with this subforum ;) Might make a thread about that.

Lets see.

Nah bound by too many rules. Who ever heard of a slave breaking free. Your the same too cobber.:)

Cheers

It would be nice to have a flow of convo instead of breaking it down into tiny bits. Just a suggestion.

.

[nihil]

In God's Name

Tools of the Trade "On September 28, 1978, he had been pope for thirty-three days. In little more than a month he had initiated various courses of action that, had they been completed, would have had a direct and dynamic effect on us all. The majority in this world would have applauded his decisions, a minority would have been appalled. The man who had quickly been labeled "the smiling pope" intended to remove the smiles from a number of faces on the following day."

"The Vatican secretary of state, Cardinal Jean Villot... studied the list of appointments, resignations to be asked for and transfers the pope had handed him. He had advised, argued, and remonstrated, but to no avail. Luciani had been adamant."

"It was by any standards a dramatic reshuffle. It would set the Church in new directions - directions that Villot, and the others on the list who were about to be replaced, considered highly dangerous...."

"There was one common denominator, one fact that linked each of the men about to be replaced. Villot was aware of it. More important, so was the pope. It had been one of the factors that had caused him to act, to strip these men of real power...it was Freemasonry."

"The evidence the pope had acquired indicated that within the Vatican City State there were over one hundred Masons, ranging from cardinals to priests."

"Luciani was further preoccupied with an illegal Masonic lodge that had penetrated far beyond Italy in its search for wealth and power. It called itself P2. The fact that it had penetrated the Vatican walls and formed links with priests, bishops, and even cardinals made P2 anathema to Albino Luciani."

"That evening, September 28, 1978, thirty-three days after his election, Pope John Paul 1, "the smiling pope", was declared dead. No official death certificate has ever been issued. No autopsy ever performed. His body was hastily embalmed. Cause of death: Unknown. And Vatican business continues..."

In God's Name by David Yallop "The facts are here in meticulous detail, documenting widespread corruption within the Vatican and presenting a compelling case that six powerful men, to protect their vast financial and political operations, decided on a shocking course of action -- Pope John Paul I must die."

[Luciani had been given the list of freemasons by a journalist; who was later found dead in the street, shot through the mouth.]

[keystone]

It would be nice to have a flow of convo instead of breaking it down into tiny bits. Just a suggestion.

.

You ae right. I've got too used to having to disect peoples posts into constituent parts.

My bad. ;)

I'll do better. :)

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

This is a constant problem, rambling. I will do my best, but may I also ask as many as possible to keep to the point, with the accent on the "the"?

IMHO we all lose out because a great deal gets lost due to unnecessary complication.

[phildee3]

This is a constant problem, rambling. I will do my best, but may I also ask as many as possible to keep to the point, with the accent on the "the"?



Which point is that?



IMHO we all lose out because a great deal gets lost due to unnecessary complication.



There are lots of interesting and relevent points that can be made.
Why limit ourselves to just one - just to keep going 'round in circles?

The complications come from hypocracy, imo.
Masons not practicing what they preach.

[phildee3]

gs,
Isn't freemasonry open to all who profess a belief in a "supreme being"?
If so, how can you justify sectarian lodges who limit the definition of the supreme being?

[grandsecretary]

Which point is that?



There are lots of interesting and relevent points that can be made.
Why limit ourselves to just one - just to keep going 'round in circles?

The complications come from hypocracy, imo.
Masons not practicing what they preach.

Take the blinkers off phildee. The point is the point of the posting as opposed to many points in a single posting.

I was simply saying, "Please keep it simple", or I thought that was what I was saying. Nothing to do with Free Masonry.

I said already that I will try too!

[phildee3]

Take the blinkers off phildee. The point is the point of the posting as opposed to many points in a single posting.

I was simply saying, "Please keep it simple", or I thought that was what I was saying. Nothing to do with Free Masonry.



Oh, now I see. You mean their point
(with an emphasis on their.)

[grandsecretary]

gs,
Isn't freemasonry open to all who profess a belief in a "supreme being"?
If so, how can you justify sectarian lodges who limit the definition of the supreme being?

You are quite right. Right on the button in this respect and in my view it is unanswerable, which is probably why it has not BEEN answered.

The Moderns form of freemasonry claims publicly not to be a religion, and yet its "higher degrees" has a strict policy of not allowing non-Christians to take advantage of membership which exerts a massive influence on the policies and practices of The United Grand Lodge of England.

Now "they" will tell you that there is nothing higher than a third of Master Mason's Degree. Well they should be asked, then why have them, or more importantly, then why stop Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and non-Christian Buddhists from joining in?"

The answer will be very interesting, if we ever get one. thelonious is the Albert Pike higher degrees man here. Perhaps he can provide us with an explanation?

[phildee3]

You are quite right. Right on the button in this respect and in my view it is unanswerable,



In other words, it you cannot justify it!

How can you live with yourself then, being a member of such a hypocritical sect?

[grandsecretary]

In other words, it you cannot justify it!

How can you live with yourself then, being a member of such a hypocritical sect?

Read my posts for goodness sake. Why should I justify it when it is unjustifiable?

Because I am not a part of that system, and nor is our Grand Lodge, and we utterly condemn that system. We believe in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things and the immortality of souls. We do NOT accept "a supreme being" - "Deus Sive Natura" which is the Moderns system "a product of The Invisible College of The Rosicrucian Enlightenment.

We are on the same side on this one.

[grandsecretary]

Oh, now I see. You mean their point
(with an emphasis on their.)

Oh dear. It was simply a request for everyone to keep to one point per posting so that we can develop a conversation and answer any question relative to that single point. Nothing to do with the subject of the thread or any particular "point".

Help!

[keystone]

..................We believe in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things and the immortality of souls. We do NOT accept "a supreme being" - "Deus Sive Natura" which is the Moderns system "a product of The Invisible College of The Rosicrucian Enlightenment.
OK I'm having a problem with this because I can't rationalise this statement with this one:

.................Our religion is Ancient of Days. We have members (Fellows of the Craft) who are also Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs.

Please help.

Cheers

[phildee3]

We believe in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things and the immortality of souls. We do NOT accept "a supreme being" - "Deus Sive Natura"



That is not what masons call the supreme being.
They call this the absolute - from which the "supreme being" (the creator) emanates.



We are on the same side on this one.

There are no "sides."
This is your construct - in order to create disorder.

[phildee3]

["Deus Sive Natura"] is not what masons call the supreme being.
They call this the absolute - from which the "supreme being" (the creator) emanates.



Hindus refer to "the absolute" as the supreme being.
From this emanates three seperate gods - the creator, the preserver and the destroyer.

Therefore, your sect is closed to true, practicing Hindus.

[keystone]

Hindus refer to "the absolute" as the supreme being.
From this emanates three seperate gods - the creator, the preserver and the destroyer.

Therefore, your sect is closed to true, practicing Hindus.

In one of the English Constitution rituals (UGLE - can't speak for GLAE of course) there is a reference to the:
creative, preservative, and annihilative power of the Deity

Cheers

[phildee3]

In one of the English Constitution rituals (UGLE - can't speak for GLAE of course) there is a reference to the:
creative, preservative, and annihilative power of the Deity
Cheers



Thanks ks.
The "deity" being "the absolute" (which the supreme being - creator - emanates from), right?

Which sect does gs belong to and which did he? :confused:

[keystone]

Thanks ks.
The "deity" being "the absolute" (which the supreme being - creator - emanates from), right?Yes and it is up to each freemason how he characterises his particular view of the "supreme being". There is no religious dogma in freemasonry (once again I cannot speak for GS's Free Masonrie) and there is no path to salvation - thats up to the individual.

Which sect does gs belong to and which did he? :confused:Not sure what you mean by "sect". There are no "sects" in freemasonry per the definition usually applied within the global term "Christendom". He can answer for himself and he has done on this forum so I have no problem in saying that up until 2005 he was a member of UGLE and appendent bodies but left it when he and others "reponed" the GLAE which came into being under that name in 1725 and went into decline and ultimate decay during the 1790s.

Cheers

[phildee3]

Not sure what you mean by "sect".



I was being nice.
gs' group has seperated itself from freemasonry as a whole and yet claims to be masonic. Just giving him the benefit of the doubt.



He can answer for himself and he has done on this forum so I have no problem in saying that up until 2005 he was a member of UGLE and appendent bodies but left it when he and others "reponed" the GLAE which came into being under that name in 1725 and went into decline and ultimate decay during the 1790s.



Thanks.
Just thought I was more likely to get a straight reply from you.

Which is the Duke of Kent/the royal's bunch?

[keystone]

I was being nice.
gs' group has seperated itself from freemasonry as a whole and yet claims to be masonic. Just giving him the benefit of the doubt.well no I wouldn't say that. Its a variation on a theme. There is no such thing as "freemasonry as a whole" per se. Countries in which freemasonry exists have their own Grand Lodges and no GL is subservient to or reports to another. In France for example in male only freemasonry there are 4 GLs of some import.

Which is the Duke of Kent/the royal's bunch?Oh thats my "bunch" as you so quaintly put it - UGLE.

Cheers

[phildee3]

well no I wouldn't say that. Its a variation on a theme. There is no such thing as "freemasonry as a whole" per se. Countries in which freemasonry exists have their own Grand Lodges and no GL is subservient to or reports to another.



Yes, I understand that, but they all are founded on the same precepts of truth, integrity and honesty. Each stone (member) being crafted and tuned to the finest degree of perfection.

That is the "whole" that I was referring to.


gs is right in a way -
I am calling integrity into question,

Not his, personally,
but the integrity of his lodge -
which you, yourself, have pointed out is openly self-contradictary.

[grandsecretary]

Hindus refer to "the absolute" as the supreme being.
From this emanates three seperate gods - the creator, the preserver and the destroyer.

Therefore, your sect is closed to true, practicing Hindus.

Ask a Hindu please. Do not take my word for it. The Hindu religion has a single Godhead, and there are different philosophies within the Hindu religion. The wording of my statement is VERY specific. We have members who are also: Chrisitians; Jews; Muslims; Hindus; Sikhs; Christian Buddhists.

[grandsecretary]

OK I'm having a problem with this because I can't rationalise this statement with this one:



Please help.

Cheers

You must say what your problem is. I am not a mind reader.

[grandsecretary]

Hindus refer to "the absolute" as the supreme being.
From this emanates three seperate gods - the creator, the preserver and the destroyer.

Therefore, your sect is closed to true, practicing Hindus.

I am sorry but you are wrong on this issue. This is the Hindu Trinity with its single Godhead.

Please do not call us a sect again. We are a Masonic movement.

[grandsecretary]

Why would Anderson change the single word "God" to three words, "a supreme being" if the resultant "supreme being" is exactly the same thing as "God"?

Define "a supreme being" for me, please.

[grandsecretary]

In one of the English Constitution rituals (UGLE - can't speak for GLAE of course) there is a reference to the:


Cheers

Oh I know it does. That is because your Royal Arch ceremony is undoubtedly a Christian ceremony, but those non-Christians who join it and say the words don't realise what they are being asked to engage in. If they do, then they are indulging in classic "mental reservation", and their Masonic oaths are not worth one jot.

[keystone]

You must say what your problem is. I am not a mind reader.OK then I'll spell it out - it seems to me that one contradicts the other.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Thanks ks.
The "deity" being "the absolute" (which the supreme being - creator - emanates from), right?

Which sect does gs belong to and which did he? :confused:

I am a full blooded Christian, and always have been phildee. The Grand Lodge at York is not a sect it is a Masonic movement.

[grandsecretary]

OK then I'll spell it out - it seems to me that one contradicts the other.

Cheers

Well it doesn't.

[phildee3]

This is the Hindu Trinity with its single Godhead.



Yes.
Totally incompatible with GLAE's "One God - creator and preserver."

Do they have an absolute from which he/it emanates?

[keystone]

Well it doesn't.Well sorry but it appears to. Please explain how not for the enlightenment of your readers.

Cheers

[phildee3]

The Grand Lodge at York is not a sect it is a Masonic movement.



Same thing.

Sect = from "section," part of.

Masonic movement = a movement within masonry - a part of Masonry as a whole.

Don't know why the umbridge. Think I'm being quite generous!

[phildee3]

I am a full blooded Christian, and always have been



If you hold to the beliefs of the GLAE, and you are not Jewish, then you are a Judeo-Christian.
The stated belief of the GLAE (as it reads to me) is in no god above YHVH - the Jewish creator-god.

This is contrary to what I understand as the masonic belief in "the absolute, from which the supreme being emanates."

[grandsecretary]

There is no religious dogma in [sic Moderns] freemasonry (once again I cannot speak for GS's Free Masonrie) and there is no path to salvation - thats up to the individual.

I have no problem in saying that up until 2005 he was a member of UGLE and appendent bodies but left it when he and others "reponed" the GLAE which came into being under that name in 1725 and went into decline and ultimate decay during the 1790s.

Cheers

1) "that's up to the individual" IS classic "Deus Sive Natura" - "God and Nature" - "up to the individual" - "whatever". You cannot, by definition, swear a Sacred, Stone Masonic, Oath on this basis, and the swearing of Stone Masonic Oaths define a Free Stone Mason and separates him from the "profane" world.

Profane: coarse or blasphemous.

2) The Assembly of Masons at York has always been known as the Ancient and Honourable Society and Fraternity of Free Masons meeting since time immemorial in the City of York. It was renamed in 1725, not reconstituted. The Constitutions of Masonrie have never changed. The Grand Lodge of All England is one and the same constitution.

The Grand Lodge at York did NOT "go into decline" it was declared an illegal seditious organisation by the Hanoverian Dynasty in Parliament. To meet under the jurisdiction of The Grand Lodge of All England was illegal and punishable by confiscation of land and property, imprisonment, and exile. It was forced into decline. These laws were not all repealed until after the Second Word War.

Neither did it go into ultimate decay, and this is unacceptable propaganda language keystone. If it was accidental then now that you know I would ask you not to say such a thing ever again. We are still here.

The fact of the matter is that many of our lodges met in secret and the last recorded meeting of our members in England, as members of The Grand Lodge at York was in York, 1810. That does not mean that they discontinued meeting at that date, it means that meetings would not have been recorded. Why?

They went through the great debacles of 1812 and 1813 and in 1823 they formed The Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of England which continued to meet until 1913. Our members also formed La Grande Loge, in Paris, now known as La Grande Loge de France. They also met in Vienna.

Apart from all of this, the Holy Order of Priest Architects has NEVER ceased to meet in England, and elsewhere.

[grandsecretary]

If you hold to the beliefs of the GLAE, and you are not Jewish, then you are a Judeo-Christian.
The stated belief of the GLAE (as it reads to me) is in no god above YHVH - the Jewish creator-god.

This is contrary to what I understand as the masonic belief in "the absolute, from which the supreme being emanates."

Then you read it entirely wrong. How many times must I say this. The history is PRE-Davidic. The religious beliefs are held by any man who believes in God and the Immortality of souls.

Not only is it pre-Davidic, but, as a movement (not a religion), it became Druidic/Celtic Christian/and Johannine Templar. It is entirely compatible with all of the modern religions that believe in one God, the Creator of all things, and the immortality of souls.

I happen to be a Christian, and a former Roman Catholic.

[phildee3]

1) "that's up to the individual" IS classic "Deus Sive Natura" - "God and Nature" - "up to the individual" - "whatever".



Deus sive natura translates as God indistinguishable from nature.

In other words - the absolute from which the creator (distinguishable from nature) emanates.

[keystone]

The Assembly of Masons at York has always been known as the Ancient and Honourable Society and Fraternity of Free Masons meeting since time immemorial in the City of York. It was renamed in 1725, not reconstituted. The Constitutions of Masonrie have never changed. The Grand Lodge of All England is one and the same constitution.Just read what I wrote please. Where did I say reconsituted? Reponed is the word that YOU have used.

The Grand Lodge at York did NOT "go into decline" it was declared an illegal seditious organisation by the Hanoverian Dynasty in Parliament. To meet under the jurisdiction of The Grand Lodge of All England was illegal and punishable by confiscation of land and property, imprisonment, and exile. It was forced into decline. These laws were not all repealed until after the Second Word War.Oh come on it faded away. It is quite disengenuous to pretend that the Unlawful Societies Act of 1799 ONLY applied to GLAE.

Neither did it go into ultimate decay, and this is unacceptable propaganda language keystone. If it was accidental then now that you know I would ask you not to say such a thing ever again.Well it disappeared as a Grand Lodge entity until you reponed it. But I'll respect your wish.

We are still here.Yes I can see that.

The fact of the matter is that many of our lodges met in secretThats fine by me.

the last recorded meeting of our members in England, as members of The Grand Lodge at York was in York, 1810.Mmmm - until 2005. Without indulging in semantics it seems to me that this is one and the same thing.

They went through the great debacles of 1812 and 1813 and in 1823 they formed The Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of England which continued to meet until 1913.Mmm is this different from the Grand Lodge Of Ancient Free and Accepted Masons formed in 1751 then for whom Dermott wrote the Ahimon Rezon?

Our members also formed La Grande Loge, in Paris, now known as La Grande Loge de France.Now that IS interesting. Do you have a citation for this? I notice that GLAE is in amity with GLDF.

Apart from all of this, the Holy Order of Priest Architects has NEVER ceased to meet in England, and elsewhere.Thats OK too I accept that they did but not, presumably as GLAE. I am talking about a GL entity here GS not the order itself. Please understand that.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Yes.
Totally incompatible with GLAE's "One God - creator and preserver."

Do they have an absolute from which he/it emanates?

You are not a theologian - obviously. Certainly not an expert on the various philosophies within the Hindu religion (and neither am I). We are advised by a number of very distinguished theologians including members of the Anglican Synod and The Hindu Council.

In addition, each petitioner is VERY well aware of what he is saying when he swears his Sacred Stone Masonic Oaths. There are no "get out clauses" and we are happy with the situation, which as you know, is what matters, and what is also entirely a matter for us.

We tell you how it is, and you are perfectly free to comment, but in the end it is a matter for us to take advice on, to develop policies, and to do what is right and proper. We trust our religious Hindus who, under advice, have sworn our Sacred Oaths, without mental reservation.

[phildee3]

Then you read it entirely wrong. How many times must I say this. The history is PRE-Davidic.



As many times as you decide, I suppose!
I heard you the first time.
Pre-Davidic is still Jewish (as long as it's post-Abramic). One god (YHVH/creator) above all others.



It is entirely compatible with all of the modern religions that believe in one God, the Creator of all things, and the immortality of souls.



ie. Abramic religions only.

(I have no problem with immortality - nor do most non-Abramic religions).

[phildee3]

Why won't you answer me gs?

Do the GLAE have an "absolute" from which the creator-god and/or "the supreme being" emanates?

[grandsecretary]

Oh come on it faded away. It is quite disengenuous to pretend that the Unlawful Societies Act of 1799 ONLY applied to GLAE.

Is this different from the Grand Lodge Of Ancient Free and Accepted Masons formed in 1751 then for whom Dermott wrote the Ahimon Rezon?

Now that IS interesting. Do you have a citation for this? I notice that GLAE is in amity with GLDF.

Thats OK too I accept that they did but not, presumably as GLAE. I am talking about a GL entity here GS not the order itself. Please understand that.

Cheers

I have to go to a meeting now. I will respond to this overnight, and include sources and attributions, including the statement made by the Grand Master of the Antients Grand Lodge, the reason why the Antients Lodge was started in 1751, and the reason why its members broke away in 1823, at Wigan. Theses things are all fascinating and inter-related.

Just to keep you going:

" ... the earliest introduction of Freemasonry into France is to be traced to the year 1718. (SOURCE: Le Sceau Rompu, ou la Loge ouverte aux profanes, 1745, [I]translation)

There are many more such historic refernces, and in more than one it names members of The Grand Lodge at York.

Yes, that is why we are in amity with the GLDF which is a Moderns A&ASR Grand Lodge. I am surprised that nobody has latched on to this one before now. The relationship with the United Grand Lodges of India is also for historic and other reasons. The terms of the Treaties are VERY specific, and confidential negotiations concerning the nature of Free Masonrie and our relationships are on-going. We are not in amity with any other Moderns Grand Lodges, and we do not expect that this situation will change.

[grandsecretary]

Why won't you answer me gs?

Do the GLAE have an "absolute" from which the creator-god and/or "the supreme being" emanates?

Yes.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/AncientofDays-1.jpg

[keystone]

I have to go to a meeting now. I will respond to this overnight, and include sources and attributions, including the statement made by the Grand Master of the Antients Grand Lodge, the reason why the Antients Lodge was started in 1751, and the reason why its members broke away in 1823, at Wigan. Theses things are all fascinating and inter-related.I look forward to it.

There are many more such historic refernces, and in more than one it names members of The Grand Lodge at York.Naming members isn't quite the same thing as "We formed it" though. Yes that is what you said earlier on.

Yes, that is why we are in amity with the GLDF which is a Moderns A&ASR Grand Lodge. I am surprised that nobody has latched on to this one before now.Yes it seems a bit strange that you, being so deprecating about what you call "moderns" Grand Lodges, would be in amity with one. I noticed this arrangement when you first announced it on your website but chose not to raise it previously.

The relationship with the United Grand Lodges of India is also for historic and other reasons. The terms of the Treaties are VERY specific, and confidential negotiations concerning the nature of Free Masonrie and our relationships are on-going.I am sure that is the case.

We are not in amity with any other Moderns Grand Lodges, and we do not expect that this situation will change.Ahh - anticipated my remark above.

Have a good evening.

Cheers

[phildee3]

Do the GLAE have an "absolute" from which the creator-god and/or "the supreme being" emanates?

Yes.



Ah. Good!

Absolute = complete, all encompassing, right?

So if the absolute includes everything, it includes "nature" (ie. the creation) as well as the creator

and if God and nature are one in the absolute then you have Deus sive natura!!

[nihil]

http://images.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazo5Ml9GX280Lmp wZ3xsb2FkPUwwLGh0dHA6Ly9pbWFnZXMxLmNhZmVwcmVzcy5jb 20vaW1hZ2UvMjkyMzcwMzFfNDAweDQwMC5qcGd8fHNjYWxlPUw wLDMyNCw0ODYsV2hpdGV8Y29tcG9zZT1ibGFuayxMMCxBZGQsN zgsLTR8bG9hZD1tYXNrLGJsYW5rOjkyX0ZfbWFza19vNC5qcGd 8Y29tcG9zZT1ibGFuayxtYXNrLE1hc2ssMCwwfGNwPXJlc3Vsd CxibGFua3xzY2FsZT1yZXN1bHQsMCw0ODAsV2hpdGV8Y29tcHJ lc3Npb249OTV8

http://www.spirit-of-metal.com/les%20goupes/E/Enthroned%20(BEL)/Towards%20The%20Skullthrone%20Of%20Satan/Towards%20The%20Skullthrone%20Of%20Satan.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/613AC5PG37L._SL500_AA240_.jpg
.

bow down to your master... enjoy your slavery, mason!

.

[marpat]

As many times as you decide, I suppose!
I heard you the first time.
Pre-Davidic is still Jewish (as long as it's post-Abramic). One god (YHVH/creator) above all others.



ie. Abramic religions only.

(I have no problem with immortality - nor do most non-Abramic religions).

Not really. The ancient Egyptian had a one god religion in Aten

[stewart edwards]

Not really. The ancient Egyptian had a one god religion in AtenFacinating period of history to read up on, and look its its relative timescale compared to the Bible etc. It is also the one period in Egyptian history that people tried to wipe completely out of history, yet it is now the most widely known (except for the pyramids) with King Tut et all. There is a lesson in there somewhewre, well at least two lessons:-

1. You cant rewrite history. (the victors may do this in the short term but it does have big karmic consequences)
2. When you do the truth can come back and eclipse everything else.

Much better to live in balance and harmony.

[phildee3]

Not really. The ancient Egyptian had a one god religion in Aten



We were talking about modern religions (ie. those still practiced today).

[marpat]

We were talking about modern religions (ie. those still practiced today).

But some people do still invoke the Aten!! I think you mean mainstream religions.

[stewart edwards]

And that is before you even consider the parallels of modern day religions to this period of Egyptian history, right down to some of the texts.

[humito]

:D http://www.youtube.com/v/XBjOs-egFMs

[phildee3]

But some people do still invoke the Aten!! I think you mean mainstream religions.



Well, no actually.
The context is all those who would be within the belief system of the GLAE.
"Mainstream" or "fringe" is irrelevent, imo.
Thanks for pointing this one out, marp.
It's an eye-opener for me to know that there are others, besides Yahwists, who believe that there is no god above the creator.
It'll take awhile for me to digest this.

[keystone]

:D http://www.youtube.com/v/XBjOs-egFMsOh not that silly old fart again. :D

Oh and BTW GS thinks you are a "moderns" freemason 'cos you were rude to him. I said I didn't think so from your posts. Was I right?

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Deus sive natura translates as God indistinguishable from nature.

In other words - the absolute from which the creator (distinguishable from nature) emanates.

No, it means that God and Nature are one, indivisible. It is the philosophy of Spinoza which laid the foundation for The Enlightenment.

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings." Einstein

[phildee3]

No, it means that God and Nature are one, indivisible.



That's what I said.



It is the philosophy of Spinoza which laid the foundation for The Enlightenment.



I know,
and Einstein's god is my god too.
It is what you call the absolute, from which your god emanates.

[grandsecretary]

That's what I said.



I know,
and Einstein's god is my god too.
It is what you call the absolute, from which your god emanates.

Good try, Hegel substituted for Spinoza, but that type of skewed Enlightenment thinking is why Moderns freemasonry has been condemned by ALL of the major churches and faiths for nearly 300 years, and opposition grows as membership rolls fall. All things to all men whenever is suits and no religious moral base whatsoever. Take the Ancient Landmarks and chuck them out of the window, they don't matter, what did somebody say "It's only administration".

"Lawless are they that make their wills their law" William Shakespeare

[keystone]

Take the Ancient Landmarks and chuck them out of the window, they don't matter, what did somebody say "It's only administration".Ifthat was directed at me I said Grand Lodges are about adminstration - I said nothing about throwing anything out of the window. If that wasn't directed at me then sorry.

Cheers

[keystone]

I have to go to a meeting now. I will respond to this overnight.......................Just a small reminder.

Cheers

[phildee3]

Good try, Hegel substituted for Spinoza, but that type of skewed Enlightenment thinking is why Moderns freemasonry has been condemned by ALL of the major churches and faiths for nearly 300 years, and opposition grows as membership rolls fall. All things to all men whenever is suits and no religious moral base whatsoever. Take the Ancient Landmarks and chuck them out of the window, they don't matter, what did somebody say "It's only administration".



I wish you'd make up your mind.
Do you believe in the absolute or not?

You said you did and yet you call it "skewed thinking."

[grandsecretary]

Just a small reminder.

Cheers

Sorry keystone. There is a lot to gather together so I can cover the issues properly. I am very busy (earning money) at the moment, but I will respond when I can.

[keystone]

Sorry keystone. There is a lot to gather together so I can cover the issues properly. I am very busy (earning money) at the moment, but I will respond when I can.No worries - we all have to earn a crust.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

I wish you'd make up your mind.
Do you believe in the absolute or not?

You said you did and yet you call it "skewed thinking."

No I did not. Where did I say that I believed in Hegel's "Absolute"? Please do not put words in my mouth. And what I believe in is practically irrelevant to this thread, so long as what I believe is consistent with the Ancient Landmarks of a Free Mason. As I said before, this is a practical consideration, which ensures that initiates are able to swear our Sacred Masonic Oaths and be trusted, because God is their witness, the guarantor of truth, and who will punish in the event of betrayal. We believe in atonement for sins.

[phildee3]

No I did not. Where did I say that I believed in (Hegel's) "Absolute"?



Post 338.



And what I believe in is practically irrelevant to this thread, so long as what I believe is consistent with the Ancient Landmarks of a Free Mason.



Quite.

Is it?

[grandsecretary]

Post 338.



Quite.

Is it?

1) Don't play clever dick with words with me, or try to manipulate what I actually posted. I deliberately displayed Blake's Ancient of Days in order to illustrate MY absolute beliefs, not Hegel's Absolute, capital "H" capital "A".

2) Beyond question, as is the case with ALL of our Free Masons, whether Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh or Christian Buddhist.

[phildee3]

Beyond question, as is the case with ALL of our Free Masons, whether Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh or Christian Buddhist.



But you have said that your group believes in an absolute but you do not.

Now you say that it's "beyond question" that you agree with your group's position, so which of these do you now retract?

[grandsecretary]

But you have said that your group believes in an absolute but you do not.

Now you say that it's "beyond question" that you agree with your group's position, so which of these do you now retract?

You are playing with words in order to try to trap me into agreeing with Hagel's Absolute. Will not happen.

This represents our religious philosophy:

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/AncientofDays-1.jpg

Blake's Urizen.

I withdraw everything that might confuse you, or anyone else who might mistakenly consider otherwise.

We believe in God, the Creator ans Preserver of all things, and the immortality of souls. This could not be clearer.

German Sausage Masons???

Don't forget - I won't I assure you.

[kadosh]

God is our guide.

[grandsecretary]

God is our guide.

Well I know that you say that. I sincerely hope that you believe it, in which case you are in the wrong bed.

[phildee3]

You are playing with words in order to try to trap me into agreeing with Hagel's Absolute.



No I'm not.
I just want to know if you do or not (or, more specifically, whether the GLAE does - okay?).

So you are changing your "yes," to this question in post 338, to a "no," - correct?:
"Do the GLAE have an "absolute" from which the creator-god and/or "the supreme being" emanates?"



We believe in God, the Creator ans Preserver of all things, and the immortality of souls. This could not be clearer.



Well, it's not very clear to me when you say, in the same breath, that Urizen represents your religious philosophy!

Urizen is not the creator of all things.
He is the creator of the physical universe, order and law,
and is one of the four emanations of the "primordial man" -
a good candidate for a "god of freemasonry," imo, as the "architect of the universe."

Now Blake is clear, to me.

[grandsecretary]

No I'm not.
I just want to know if you do or not (or, more specifically, whether the GLAE does - okay?).

So you are changing your "yes," to this question in post 338, to a "no," - correct?:
"Do the GLAE have an "absolute" from which the creator-god and/or "the supreme being" emanates?"



Well, it's not very clear to me when you say, in the same breath, that Urizen represents your religious philosophy!

Urizen is not the creator of all things.
He is the creator of the physical universe, order and law,
and is one of the four emanations of the "primordial man" -
a good candidate for a "god of freemasonry," imo, as the "architect of the universe."

Now Blake is clear, to me.

And it is even clearer to me. It is not the Bible, it is as you very well know a parody of the Book of Genesis and it was put forward as generally illustrative.

Our religious beliefs are firmly rooted in Druidic/Celtic Christian/Johannine Templarism.

We have members who are Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs and Christian Buddhists.

I believe that we have covered this ground and your questions have been answered to the very best of my ability.

[grandsecretary]

Urizen:

a good candidate for a "god of freemasonry," imo, as the "architect of the universe."

Now Blake is clear, to me.

But not, by any stretch of the imagination, "a supreme being" and I hope that this is also clear to you.

[phildee3]

And it is even clearer to me. It is not the Bible, it is as you very well know a parody of the Book of Genesis



I didn't know that.
I did a course on Blake back in grad. school but don't remember that!
I still have the books so I'll see if I can find it.

Somehow I picked up the suggestion that Blake was a visionary.

[phildee3]

Urizen:



But not, by any stretch of the imagination, "a supreme being" and I hope that this is also clear to you.



but your supreme being, no?

Not mine nor Blake's,

so - a supreme being.

[grandsecretary]

phildee, I a very sorry if I have confused you. You need to read several books if you want to understand Blake's quite complicated philosophy of Urizen. Not surprisingly it IS open to interpretation.

[phildee3]

phildee, I a very sorry if I have confused you. You need to read several books if you want to understand Blake's quite complicated philosophy of Urizen.



You haven't confused me. Quite the opposite, in fact - you have got me to reopen my Blake books which I have read in the past as I said (looks like you need to read my posts!).

Heres what I find:

The Four Zoas (emanations of Albion - the primordial man - also known as Adam Kadmon, the first emanation of Ein Soph - the "absolute"):

Urizen – god of conventional reason and law. He is usually depicted as a bearded old man. He sometimes bears architect's tools, to create and constrain the universe; or nets, with which he ensnares people in webs of law and conventional culture. Consort – Ahania (goddess of Pleasure).

Tharmas – god of instinct, nature, and unity. Consort - Enion.

Luvah/Orc – god of creative passion and energy, standing in opposition to Urizen, the embodiment of tradition.

Urthona - god of inspiration and creativity. Consort - Enitharmon.


Ayn Sof is called "the Ancient of All Ancients,"
not to be confused with Urizen - the Ancient of Days.

[phildee3]

...Blake's quite complicated philosophy of Urizen. Not surprisingly it IS open to interpretation.



You recently said that Blake's work was a "parody of Genesis."
It is not.
It's a mythologisation of Kabbalah.

Blake draws from the same source that the author of Genesis does - the Kabbala - only Blake explores it in detail while Genesis is an extreme over-simplification.

Blake's "philosophy of Urizen" is NOT open to interpretation - it can only be interpreted in terms of the source from which it came.
His symbology is very specific.
Albion = Adam Kadmon.
Albion is also England in Blake's extended analogy. Not could be, but is!


Blake, and Kabbala, may be complex but they are not confusing.
The over-simplification of the creation myth, which allows us to identify Ayn soph with the creator, is.

[grandsecretary]

You recently said that Blake's work was a "parody of Genesis."
It is not.
It's a mythologisation of Kabbalah.

Blake draws from the same source that the author of Genesis does - the Kabbala - only Blake explores it in detail while Genesis is an extreme over-simplification.

Blake's "philosophy of Urizen" is NOT open to interpretation - it can only be interpreted in terms of the source from which it came.
His symbology is very specific.
Albion = Adam Kadmon.
Albion is also England in Blake's extended analogy. Not could be, but is!


Blake, and Kabbala, may be complex but they are not confusing.
The over-simplification of the creation myth, which allows us to identify Ayn soph with the creator, is.

This is a view. The other is that is was a parody. Some philosphers admit that they do not understand Blake's thinking at all.

I used it as an illustration for our beliefs, that is all. We believe in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things, and the immortality of souls. Exoteric.

We have members who are Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and we also would allow Christian Buddhists.

[phildee3]

I used it as an illustration for our beliefs, that is all.



and that picture illustrates the "belief" in a creator who is [B]a god.



We believe in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things,



This is not at all clear. It can be (and, by most people, is) understood mean only one god,
but this cannot necessarily be so if there are, in fact, practicing Hidus (who believe in many gods) in the GLAE.

This "God" that you/GLAE believe in is a combination of two gods, (Brahma and Vishnu to the Hindu).
The only occurrences of this that I've come across is in Yahwism.
Is this god one of the versions of Yahweh?

[phildee3]

This is a view. The other is that is was a parody.



c cannot be a parody of b if it contains all the elemets of a, and b only contains a few of them.

NB.
a = Kabbalah
b = Genesis
c = Blake

[grandsecretary]

c cannot be a parody of b if it contains all the elemets of a, and b only contains a few of them.

NB.
a = Kabbalah
b = Genesis
c = Blake

But it is NOT important phildee. I used the painting as an illustration. Blake is not the Holy Bible. He was one man with a point of view. Sometimes you are like a terrier with a bone.

For the last time: We believe in one God, the Creator and Preserver of Heaven and Earth, and all things, and the immortality of souls. We have members who are Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and we would accept Christian Buddhists. That is what we do NOW. Apart from this we know where we came from, and what was believed. We are a product of, and have firm roots in the Druidic/Celtic Christian/Jonannine Templar traditions.

I cannot add any more.

[phildee3]

But it is NOT important phildee.

I cannot add any more.



Fine.
Truth may not be important to you but it is to me,
and I'm sure there is alot more.
I'm investigating it right now through studying Blake and Kabbalah, and I appreciate you bringing this to my attention.

You can go back to sleep now.

[grandsecretary]

And that is exactly what I am about to do. Busy day tomorrow. Sleep well.

[solarwindspirit]

Thats not true at all. Just because people are not abusing the masons on here doesnt mean we support anything/everything they are about! I thought we were conversing with them to learn about them and what they get up to.:rolleyes:

I find it very difficult to decifer so I've quit trying. . .
just like man. . .an apple drops from a tree
and he circles it 10x10 to get to that one apple
so. . .now stooping down to get it. . .
does it have a worm in it? I wanna know. . .lol

It's really dizzying. . .I wanna shake em wake up
sol soul om heart chakra on through you to the earth
your xxyzandearth lol but just zip it up and hide it and make
a 'cult' or group out of it. . .lol

It's in simplicity. . .the earth is really special you know
I love her. . .how bout you?

simple is elegant isn't it. . .

what kind of mockery is this of children? the manchurian candidate. . .treating children with the pavlov response -- why even go there, I ask? No man. . .they are human and not lab rats. (http://www.rense.com/general69/little.htm) If they are really curious about a response and the reactive formation of nature. . .they really should pick on someone their own size. . .

[banjoreality]

And that is exactly what I am about to do. Busy day tomorrow. Sleep well.

A busy day.... raping children and eating babies in blood rite sacrifices.

[keystone]

A busy day.... raping children and eating babies in blood rite sacrifices.

such negitivity my friend

stop seeing these issues in the way you do, ur enslaved because you make yourself believe this with those comments above.

Couldn't put it better myself.

Cheers

[phildee3]

A busy day.... raping children and eating babies in blood rite sacrifices.



Don't be silly,
the GLAE don't do anything that real freemasons do! ;)


LOL:

[humason]

A busy day.... raping children and eating babies in blood rite sacrifices.

No, no, we're all retreating into our secret underground bunkers, stuffed with Goats, virgins and the collected works of Albert Pike to wait out the coming storm, in the shape of "The Lost Symbol".

You see, we're about to get our secrets exposed (just like CERN with the Anti-matter, and the Catholic Church with the blood of Christ), and we're running scared.

[kadosh]

The author Dan Brown after failing to make it as a singer-songwriter, decided to write fiction and had only modest success until The Da Vinci Code, his fourth novel. The Lost Symbol brings back Harvard University symbology professor Robert Langdon, this time prowling the corridors of power in Washington, D.C. Here is an interview with Brown and part of the first chapter of the book. - http://www.parade.com/news/2009/09/13-dan-brown-life-after-da-vinci-code.html

[grandsecretary]

A busy day.... raping children and eating babies in blood rite sacrifices.

No, just running a training course for Network Rail for lots of money.

[nihil]

is freemasonry
Hey Masons, why don't you just call your ol'fella Benedictus from Bayern and ask him if he gently adds The Lost Symbol to the black list ??

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2410/indlibprohib.jpg

C'mon, 5 million copies !! An Anti-masonic blockbuster :eek:
really doomed?

[keystone]

No, just running a training course for Network Rail for lots of money.Filthy capitalist! :D

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Filthy capitalist! :D

Cheers

I have to eat! ;) In a decent restaurant of course. :cool:

[energi]

Wow. Just wow.

Thirty-nine pages without the OP posting anything.

[nihil]

OP is probably to be found into one of the following:

Masonic beliefs and practices?

Did you know HE was a Freemason?

Becoming a Mason?

[keystone]

OP got themselves banned.

Cheers

[nihil]

OP got themselves banned

Did he meant: PROvocative

... maybe ?

it.may.be

[keystone]

Did he meant: PROvocative

... maybe ?

it.may.beProvocative as in "designed to provoke an angry reaction" or as in "designed to provoke thought" ... maybe?

Cheers

[nihil]

Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the facts are through such "arguable rumors". If you can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a "wild rumor" which can have no basis in fact.