How Much Do you Believe?

[mike martin]

On the TFM topic Chestnut Lodge kept asking a question that everyone was either unwilling to answer, unable to answer (as they would lose their credibility here) or just didnt understand, I am really interested to see honest answers to it. So here is my attempt to put it into an easily understandable format, there are 2 one for the US and one for the UK.

US version:

You or your child are involved in an accident of some description, resulting in serious and possibly life threatening burns. You are told that the only people who could help would be the specialists at a Shriners burns Hospital. Now you, knowing that these Hospitals are funded 100% by Freemasons, would you accept the treatment or would your deeply held beliefs about Freemasons make you turn it down?

UK version (as we don't have Shriners here):

You or your child are involved in an accident of some description, resulting in serious and possibly life threatening injuries. The motorcycle Paramedic (who happens to be a Mason BTW) tells you that quick treatment is of the essence and he will call in the air ambulance which will get you or yours there 20 mins quicker. Now you, knowing that Freemasons' Lodges donate thousands of pounds a year to help keep them going would you say "no please send the normal ambulance I'll take my chances"??

The point being if you really believe that Freemasons are up to the stuff some of you say, do you ensure that you avoid anything which has been assisted by money from Freemasons.

Mike

[elirien]

Well I saw these questions before and didn't answer them. I've got a very simple answer although I don't live in the U.S. and neither in the U.K.

The politicians who ruined and sold my country to foreign (possibly most of the masonic) investors were mostly Freemasons. I pay the state taxes which they are ruling even though I don't want to, I buy my education certificates from them so that I'm being perceived as a human being who is worthy of "health care" and a decent meal in a home.

Hell yeah I would get some treatment. I pay those people all my life the least they could do would be treating a wound damn it. This is no thing about stupid selfish honor. It would also be a great display of unity that I'm neither afraid nor getting sick of the idea that we can live together in unity after this secretive stuff and vampiryc money (lending) system is abolished.

These are my thoughts on the subject. It doesn't change if its Freemasons charity money, money from the rothschild's, money from the states that poison and kill us or anything else. It isn't about money at all. It is about worthless ego.

[skylark]

human beings are considered property/a resource, so when that property gets damaged there are places that specialize in its repair. The Law of Attraction ensures that we have conscious control over our own experiences if we choose to recognise the power of our own thoughts.

[stealth]

I would take the air ambulance as long as they do not implant me with a microchip or brainwash me.;)

[thelonious]

I would take the air ambulance as long as they do not implant me with a microchip or brainwash me.;)

Come on! Just one little chip!

:D

[mike martin]

human beings are considered property/a resource, so when that property gets damaged there are places that specialize in its repair. The Law of Attraction ensures that we have conscious control over our own experiences if we choose to recognise the power of our own thoughts.

Yes but would you actually answer the question? I'm assuming that you will say that no you will not accept the Masonically provided assistance.

Mike

[mike martin]

I would take the air ambulance as long as they do not implant me with a microchip or brainwash me.;)

LoL

Mike

[chestnutlodge]

elirien - are you anti freemason then?

skylark - I am fully conversant with the Laws of Attraction which I practice daily. But am at a loss as to how that fits with the question? Unless you self heal which would render medical aid superfluous.

[the guy in pink]

human beings are considered property/a resource, .

Yep! My kids know that well . We live where the sun shines often and hot, my kids have been told all their lives : Sunburn will be considered to be malicious damage to property - my property!! :)

[elirien]

elirien - are you anti freemason then?


Its important what you mean with anti? Saying to be against something can have a lot of meanings.

I don't support secretive organizations, not only freemasonry. I don't like people that are secretive about anything. I have seen and still see through various channels what people from these organizations influence and what they do.

[chestnutlodge]

Its important what you mean with anti? Saying to be against something can have a lot of meanings.

I don't support secretive organizations, not only freemasonry. I don't like people that are secretive about anything. I have seen and still see through various channels what people from these organizations influence and what they do.

Ok so are you against freemasonry and what you percieve it to stand for and want nothing to do with it or any by product of it?

[elirien]

Ok so are you against freemasonry and what you percieve it to stand for and want nothing to do with it or any by product of it?

No. Of course I want to know the inner dealings of Freemasonry since it affects my life through their members very deeply. That doesn't mean that I want nothing to do with it since I am already involved as a citizen of Turkey, like I am involved with the Bilderberg group and countless others which I know and don't know of. But I wouldn't support any masonic activity neither would I take part in any.

I don't know what it stands for. I'm perceiving people walking to a planetary police state, which is backed imho by people that are Freemasons and other society members. I still don't get why they are doing it? But at the same time I still don't get why I am here and why are people killing each other. There are a lot of things that I don't get but which are very very wrong.

[the guy in pink]

I don't support secretive organizations, not only freemasonry.

Well then, if it's secretive organisations that bother you, you have no need to worry about Freemasonry. To find them just look in the local telephone directory, or visit the numerous lodge websites and click on "contact".

In London you can take part in regular hourly guided tours of the Freemasons Headquarters.

That's Hardly secretive!

[elirien]

Well then, if it's secretive organisations that bother you, you have no need to worry about Freemasonry. To find them just look in the local telephone directory, or visit the numerous lodge websites and click on "contact".

In London you can take part in regular hourly guided tours of the Freemasons Headquarters.

That's Hardly secretive!

Don't get me wrong but you are quite new here aren't you :D
And I'm not saying that because you have 3 posts.

[the guy in pink]

Don't get me wrong but you are quite new here aren't you :D
And I'm not saying that because you have 3 posts.

To this forum yes I am new, but I have inhabited the newsgroups for several years, following these tups of topics. So I have been around, and know some of the arguements;).

[stealth]

Is the guy in pink a mason:confused:

[chestnutlodge]

Is the guy in pink a mason:confused:

Would you react differently to him/her if he/she was?

Are you masonophobic?

[mike martin]

Thanks guys one on-topic response and the original question is now lost in the dross.

I think I'm beginning to see where the communication problems come from on this Forum.

Mike

[stealth]

Would you react differently to him/her if he/she was?

Are you masonophobic?

I would not react any differently if he or she was a mason .IT was an upfront out in the open question thats all.:) ps. Are are you Ickophobic.:D

[stealth]

Thanks guys one on-topic response and the original question is now lost in the dross.

I think I'm beginning to see where the communication problems come from on this Forum.

Mike

Hang in there mike all is not lost.:D

[elirien]

Hang in there mike all is not lost.:D

lol :D

[critical_analysis]

On the TFM topic Chestnut Lodge kept asking a question that everyone was either unwilling to answer, unable to answer (as they would lose their credibility here) or just didnt understand, I am really interested to see honest answers to it. So here is my attempt to put it into an easily understandable format, there are 2 one for the US and one for the UK.

US version:

You or your child are involved in an accident of some description, resulting in serious and possibly life threatening burns. You are told that the only people who could help would be the specialists at a Shriners burns Hospital. Now you, knowing that these Hospitals are funded 100% by Freemasons, would you accept the treatment or would your deeply held beliefs about Freemasons make you turn it down?

UK version (as we don't have Shriners here):

You or your child are involved in an accident of some description, resulting in serious and possibly life threatening injuries. The motorcycle Paramedic (who happens to be a Mason BTW) tells you that quick treatment is of the essence and he will call in the air ambulance which will get you or yours there 20 mins quicker. Now you, knowing that Freemasons' Lodges donate thousands of pounds a year to help keep them going would you say "no please send the normal ambulance I'll take my chances"??

The point being if you really believe that Freemasons are up to the stuff some of you say, do you ensure that you avoid anything which has been assisted by money from Freemasons.

Mike

What a stupid question!
So because you think there is a problem with a secret society you should allow yourself or your child to die to stand by your morals?
What do you honestly hope to prove with such nonsense?
Given the feeling about masons round here most people would feel that the money used to fund the hospital was ill gotten gains that was simply robbed from the people anyway, so why should you feel bad about taking back a little something that was taking from you?
What a game you are playing with these people.

[hiram_abiff]

you would take the air ambulance if you thought you was gonna die. freemasonry is the 2 nd largest donator to charity in the UK after the national lottery.I have seen a lot of people benefit from the charity of freemasonry.a lot of people would have been stuck without their help.

[geeve420]

Elirien,

The secrets that we have are Words and grips to allow us entry into lodge and visit another lodge, also the other secrets we have are the financials of the lodge and personal business of fellow brothers i.e. they need help with bills or have sick relative. These are no more the publics need to know as we need to know any one else's finacials or personal problems. we take interest and keep those things confidential "secret" because we are brothers and family and it really doesn't concern everyone in town. Those are the secrets. that's it!

we are not a secret society, more of a fraternity. I to have friend from high school who can walk because of the Shriner's Hospital, he nor any one in his family are masons or have anything to do with them, But his family didn't have to pay one penny to get get him healed, it was paid by donations let me say that again, donations of Freemasons and shiners.

Thanks

Geeve

[chestnutlodge]

Stealth - No I am not an Ickophobo as I have not indicated I dislike him or what he stands for. The same can not be said in reverse.

critical analysis - It is not a stupid question. For I would respect you more as being anti something if you stood by your beliefs when faced with a judgement call. In other words anti masons are happy to criticise but are thankful for the work they do when they directly benefit.

May one say hypocrit?

[geeve420]

critical analysis- What money are we taking from the people? The last time I checked I pay taxes and a House payment just like everyone else:) And the funds that support those hospitals comes from Donations and a percentage of all Masons annual dues, as well as the annual Shriner's Circus. I Don't remember robbing anyone, nor has anyone else.

Thanks

Geeve

[elirien]

Elirien,

The secrets that we have are Words and grips to allow us entry into lodge and visit another lodge, also the other secrets we have are the financials of the lodge and personal business of fellow brothers i.e. they need help with bills or have sick relative. We take interest and keep those things confidential "secret" because we are brothers and family and it really doesn't concern everyone in town. Those are the secrets. that's it!

we are not a secret society, more of a fraternity. I to have friend from high school who can walk because of the Shriner's Hospital, he nor any one in his family are masons or have anything to do with them, But his family didn't have to pay one penny to get get him healed, it was paid by donations let me say that again, donations of Freemasons and shiners.

Thanks

Geeve

Geeve,

give me one good reason why you are the lawyer for lets say Süleyman Demirel, a well known Mason, ex-president of Turkey and someone who sold the country to bankers, the CIA in many different ways. You know somethings about Freemasonry as a Freemason, but I also know somethings about Freemasonry like I also know about American government that most Americans don't know and like I also for example know about Cat behavior without being a cat.

I trust myself better then anyone else and I don't think that I need someone to tell me where the line ends with the secrets of Freemasonry (no disrespect). Thats like an Imam telling me that Islam is a religion of peace and goodness. Oh yeah? 1400 years later there are still people dying of hunger and there are guys driving BMW's in Islamic countries.

As I say again, money is trivial in any situation. Curing the wounded is not debatable. These trivial thoughts are for the people of Dogma.

[darketernal]

Stealth - No I am not an Ickophobo as I have not indicated I dislike him or what he stands for. The same can not be said in reverse.

critical analysis - It is not a stupid question. For I would respect you more as being anti something if you stood by your beliefs when faced with a judgement call. In other words anti masons are happy to criticise but are thankful for the work they do when they directly benefit.

May one say hypocrit?

I think the Masons on this forum have misunderstood what Icke has said about Masonry in his lectures and books. He has repeatedly said that for the majority of freemasons the lodge is just a fraturnal order where they do rituals most of them do not really understand, and help each other out. That at the level of the blue lodge it is not a secrete society at all, and the negative things that go on seem to occur almost exclusively at the upper levels of the organization which are comprised primarily of the bloodlines he speaks about.

Look at it like any other organization or even a company. If the board of directors for McDonalds does something in secret at a meeting which the guy flipping burgers at your locak McDonalds is not aware of, do you tell this person "I am anti-McDonalds and I do not like you for working for this evil company!" you've not only done this person an injustice, he is probably going to say "what are you talking about you silly ass... we cook hamburgers and and french fries at the McDonalds I work at... what are you smoking?"

I've heard David Icke say something similar to "When people say 'its the freemasons or this or that which is the problem' they are missing the plot... it isn't the freemasons or any of the other organizations that are used to further the agenda, because the majority of the people involved with these things are generally well-intending people who do not take part in or even know about any secret agenda. It is the bloodline families that interconnect at the top of these organizations and companies. Even then there is no need to hate these people to solve the problem. Simply refuse to go along with the agenda, and their power is removed. Game over."

That was not word for word, but pretty close to what I've heard him say a few times.

[thelonious]

I think the Masons on this forum have misunderstood what Icke has said about Masonry in his lectures and books. He has repeatedly said that for the majority of freemasons the lodge is just a fraturnal order where they do rituals most of them do not really understand, and help each other out. That at the level of the blue lodge it is not a secrete society at all, and the negative things that go on seem to occur almost exclusively at the upper levels of the organization which are comprised primarily of the bloodlines he speaks about.

It's not that we don't understand, it is just that Mr. Icke is in error. For example, he talks about the "upper levels of the organization", which is a dead giveaway that he doesn't understand the fraternity's structure.

Furthermore, on a recent TV program, Icke gave his version of Masonic history, by stating that the Knights Templar fled to Scotland after they were persecuted in France, and founded the Scottish Rite of Masonry there. However, in reality, the Scottish Rite of Masonry wasn't founded in Scotland at all; it was founded in Charleston, South Carolina, USA in 1801, abd was based on 2 different chivalric rites that had been practiced in France (not Scotland) in the 1700's.

Also, concerning the Blue Lodge statement: you may be surprised to know that "secrecy" plays a *much* larger part in the Blue Lodge than it does the other bodies of Masonry. Scottish Rite meetings, for example, are frequently opened to non-members.

Look at it like any other organization or even a company. If the board of directors for McDonalds does something in secret at a meeting which the guy flipping burgers at your locak McDonalds is not aware of, do you tell this person "I am anti-McDonalds and I do not like you for working for this evil company!" you've not only done this person an injustice, he is probably going to say "what are you talking about you silly ass... we cook hamburgers and and french fries at the McDonalds I work at... what are you smoking?"

But this example does not apply to Freemasonry. In Masonry, *all* members have a voice and a vote on all subjects. There are no "secret board meetings" because all Masons are "members of the board". The laws, rules, and regulations of Masonry are found the Grand Lodge Constitutions. Any member may submit proposed legislation to make changes, and each proposed change has to be approved by the majority of our membership. Furthermore, all Masonic leaders are elected by the majority of our members from the general membership. After they have served their terms, they go back to being just another regular member.

[geeve420]

Geeve,

give me one good reason why you are the lawyer for lets say Süleyman Demirel, a well known Mason, ex-president of Turkey and someone who sold the country to bankers, the CIA in many different ways. You know somethings about Freemasonry as a Freemason, but I also know somethings about Freemasonry like I also know about American government that most Americans don't know and like I also for example know about Cat behavior without being a cat.

I trust myself better then anyone else and I don't think that I need someone to tell me where the line ends with the secrets of Freemasonry (no disrespect). Thats like an Imam telling me that Islam is a religion of peace and goodness. Oh yeah? 1400 years later there are still people dying of hunger and there are guys driving BMW's in Islamic countries.

As I say again, money is trivial in any situation. Curing the wounded is not debatable. These trivial thoughts are for the people of Dogma.

No disrespect taken, I enjoy level headed debate:) I never claimed to be a lawyer for anyone. I can only state what I know on this man. He was not allowed to be involved in politics for ten years after a coup d'etat on September 12, 1980, headed by Kenan Evren. I know he became prime minister in 1991 and became president in 1993 by election from the Grand National Assembly of Turkey upon the death of the presendent. He was president till 2000 which is the 7 years allowed by the constitution. As far as selling Turkey to bankers or the CIA I would like to see the non partisan references, if you could point me in that direction, I have yet to find any facts supporting those statements.

I am glad that you have trust in yourself, I as well have trust in myself and can tell you, that is where the secrets end. As someone on the inside of Masonary, I have a hard time understanding how you believe you know more. Can you produce the facts that support this theory?

In my opinion, and it is that, till further facts can be produced we are at a stalemate as far as this debate is concerned. you are a very headstrong person and I look forward to researching the facts with you and coming to a conclusion:)

Thanks

Geeve

[critical_analysis]

critical analysis - It is not a stupid question. For I would respect you more as being anti something if you stood by your beliefs when faced with a judgement call. In other words anti masons are happy to criticise but are thankful for the work they do when they directly benefit.

May one say hypocrit?


Like I say a silly question.
You might be anti water fluoridation but if you are dying of thirst you would be a fool not to drink some water from the tap.
Let me now ask you a question. Are you against Nazism?
Imagine you found yourself in a foreign land and you or your child had an accident.
Imagine the only hospital that happened to be reachable was funded by Nazi’s.
Would you allow yourself to get treated or would you stand by the same lofty principals you hold others too and refuse treatment and accept your fate, feeling good because you had made a moral stand?




critical analysis- What money are we taking from the people? The last time I checked I pay taxes and a House payment just like everyone else:) And the funds that support those hospitals comes from Donations and a percentage of all Mason’s annual dues, as well as the annual Shriner's Circus. I Don't remember robbing anyone, nor has anyone else.

You operate within society in such a way as to look after your own, in doing this someone else is losing out. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
When one of you guys gets a job because he shook the interviewers hand in a certain way, someone who was perhaps more qualified for the role was overlooked. There-for you are taking more than your fair share from society, this is robbery on a grand scale.

[geeve420]

Sorry to tell you this but the VP of my company is a Mason. I work on Natural gas pipeline for a living. I get no special treatment or pay because I am a Mason. I actually make less than a lot of Non Masons in the field because I have only a High school Diploma and only 3 years experience as a welder, the other guys I work with and for are all collage educated and have many years experience, and non of whom are Masons. The fantasy that you paint where I could just shake someone's hand and magically be in charge is a false hood and doesn't exist. Yes we help each other out, but in regards to personal and community dealings. I work very hard and am givin what I earn, I do not want to be givin anything based on my Masonic affiliation and all the Masons I know are the same way. Where you came up with that idea I will never know!

Thanks

Geeve

[darketernal]

It's not that we don't understand, it is just that Mr. Icke is in error. For example, he talks about the "upper levels of the organization", which is a dead giveaway that he doesn't understand the fraternity's structure.

Furthermore, on a recent TV program, Icke gave his version of Masonic history, by stating that the Knights Templar fled to Scotland after they were persecuted in France, and founded the Scottish Rite of Masonry there. However, in reality, the Scottish Rite of Masonry wasn't founded in Scotland at all; it was founded in Charleston, South Carolina, USA in 1801, abd was based on 2 different chivalric rites that had been practiced in France (not Scotland) in the 1700's.

Also, concerning the Blue Lodge statement: you may be surprised to know that "secrecy" plays a *much* larger part in the Blue Lodge than it does the other bodies of Masonry. Scottish Rite meetings, for example, are frequently opened to non-members.



But this example does not apply to Freemasonry. In Masonry, *all* members have a voice and a vote on all subjects. There are no "secret board meetings" because all Masons are "members of the board". The laws, rules, and regulations of Masonry are found the Grand Lodge Constitutions. Any member may submit proposed legislation to make changes, and each proposed change has to be approved by the majority of our membership. Furthermore, all Masonic leaders are elected by the majority of our members from the general membership. After they have served their terms, they go back to being just another regular member.


Just because something is presented this way on the surface level does not mean that is the reality of the situation. Let me ask you then do you believe the rites and rituals you performed are just meaningless esoteric traditions that no one really understands anymore? If so, then you do not really understand the world you involved yourself in.

I've had my own experiences with a lot of this, which I do not care to get into with you about. I've got no problem with you speaking what you see as the truth openly, as long as you do not expect me to accept your truth and disregard what I know and have experienced. By that same token do not expect me to be silent when I see someone involved with freemasonry make statements such as "our organization's ultimate goals are good and just, all the members know everything that goes on, and our traditions are just some old silly nonsense that means nothing really outside of just exploring one's self." and not say "hold on a minute, I've got a different take on that... maybe there is something either you do not know or you are not telling us..."

I'm fairly certain David Icke has actually said the Scottish Rite was founded in the US, but if not, again that is not exactally a secret. The question then becomes are you certain the rites they practice were created in South Carolina? Just as the name "freemasonry" is only a few hundred years old, and true the organization calling itself "Freemasons" has only existed this long, does not by any means mean the rites of the order are a recent creation. Let's keep this perspective shall we?

[critical_analysis]

Sorry to tell you this but the VP of my company is a Mason. I work on Natural gas pipeline for a living. I get no special treatment or pay because I am a Mason. I actually make less than a lot of Non Masons in the field because I have only a High school Diploma and only 3 years experience as a welder, the other guys I work with and for are all collage educated and have many years experience, and non of whom are Masons. The fantasy that you paint where I could just shake someone's hand and magically be in charge is a false hood and doesn't exist. Yes we help each other out, but in regards to personal and community dealings. I work very hard and am givin what I earn, I do not want to be givin anything based on my Masonic affiliation and all the Masons I know are the same way. Where you came up with that idea I will never know!

Thanks

Geeve
It is obvious that you would not get any special pay for doing the job you do, that is not what I said though is it? (Though it is interesting you know that the VP is a mason)
I never said you would be working in a company and getting more pay than would be expected, simply that when one mason is dealing with another I suspect preferential treatment would be shown.
Are you claiming that Mason's never look after their own?
That no Mason would ever show another Mason preferential treatment in a professional environment?

[elirien]

As far as selling Turkey to bankers or the CIA I would like to see the non partisan references, if you could point me in that direction, I have yet to find any facts supporting those statements.

First of all, I can understand I am still searching for the proof myself but that is hard to find. I deducted this with simple logic since these people (Demirel, Ecevit, Türkesh, Evren etc.) played all in the same game and ended up not being hanged but just bruised while the economy they created all together suffered, people died and many other bad things happened. I don't need a signed copy of the order of these systematic moves that they fulfilled to think that they handed us a very lousy foundation to build upon. My country is in larger debt and the CIA infiltrated my country deeper since their time.

I later on read that there were three Freemasons in the MIT(the Turkish version of the CIA) and which are stated in various memoirs of old MIT members. Who knows what they affected.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not a patriot at all. I believe that I am me and not a Turk, neither a German nor something else. My mother and Father had sex here. That's why I am here.


I am glad that you have trust in yourself, I as well have trust in myself and can tell you, that is where the secrets end. As someone on the inside of Masonary, I have a hard time understanding how you believe you know more. Can you produce the facts that support this theory?

I didn't say that I knew better, but I said that I also knew somethings. If that comes over as "knowing better" than I apologize. I know there are secrets to be unraveled because masons are high up in government almost everywhere and where governments are there is secrecy involved. Can you prove me that you know everything there is about Freemasonry? I sincerely doubt it.


In my opinion, and it is that, till further facts can be produced we are at a stalemate as far as this debate is concerned. you are a very headstrong person and I look forward to researching the facts with you and coming to a conclusion:)

Thanks

Geeve

This is a good offer but lately I have not that much time and I don't feel to much motivated or obligated to prove anything to anyone (no offence). There are lots of hypothesis out there and it is imho important to listen to everyone of them and research them accordingly. I hope that you research your order even deeper and have a thought about why people need to unravel these secrets after reading further on in this site. After all the age of aquarius is near ;)

Your welcome and welcome to the forum.

[geeve420]

It is obvious that you would not get any special pay for doing the job you do, that is not what I said though is it? (Though it is interesting you know that the VP is a mason)
I never said you would be working in a company and getting more pay than would be expected, simply that when one mason is dealing with another I suspect preferential treatment would be shown.
Are you claiming that Mason's never look after their own?
That no Mason would ever show another Mason preferential treatment in a professional environment?


Well when I got hired I had no idea my VP was a Mason, But the President of the company and no one on the board is. We only talked about it when he came to see the pipeline, I've met him once, He's in Dallas I'm in Oklahoma. We've never spoken since, nor have I received any preferential treatment. No preferential treatment is shown, that I have ever seen! When the President retires his Son will take the helm of the company. Also not a Mason!! No, masons do look after their own, but had you read what I wrote which is , we look out for each other on personal matters i.e. help with bills or sick relatives or moving and community things i.e. building or repairing school fences (I am a welder) or playground equipment or tiling the senior center for easier wheelchair access. No a Mason will not show special treatment in the professional world! Companies don't make money by hiring unqualified people, Masonic or not. There is just as much a chance of that as there is Joe Blow from the golf club getting a cushy job because he is a member of a members only golf club with John Smith.

Thanks

Geeve

[geeve420]

First of all, I can understand I am still searching for the proof myself but that is hard to find. I deducted this with simple logic since these people (Demirel, Ecevit, Türkesh, Evren etc.) played all in the same game and ended up not being hanged but just bruised while the economy they created all together suffered, people died and many other bad things happened. I don't need a signed copy of the order of these systematic moves that they fulfilled to think that they handed us a very lousy foundation to build upon. My country is in larger debt and the CIA infiltrated my country deeper since their time.

I later on read that there were three Freemasons in the MIT(the Turkish version of the CIA) and which are stated in various memoirs of old MIT members. Who knows what they affected.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not a patriot at all. I believe that I am me and not a Turk, neither a German nor something else. My mother and Father had sex here. That's why I am here.



I didn't say that I knew better, but I said that I also knew somethings. If that comes over as "knowing better" than I apologize. I know there are secrets to be unraveled because masons are high up in government almost everywhere and where governments are there is secrecy involved. Can you prove me that you know everything there is about Freemasonry? I sincerely doubt it.



This is a good offer but lately I have not that much time and I don't feel to much motivated or obligated to prove anything to anyone (no offence). There are lots of hypothesis out there and it is imho important to listen to everyone of them and research them accordingly. I hope that you research your order even deeper and have a thought about why people need to unravel these secrets after reading further on in this site. After all the age of aquarius is near ;)

Your welcome and welcome to the forum.

I thank for your input, you are a great conversationalist and I look forward to talking again. I will always study and learn, after all people and Governments can take away a lot of thing but the cannot take pride or knowledge. I thank you for the welcome and am glad to be here:)

Thanks

Geeve

[critical_analysis]

Well when I got hired I had no idea my VP was a Mason, But the President of the company and no one on the board is. We only talked about it when he came to see the pipeline, I've met him once, He's in Dallas I'm in Oklahoma. We've never spoken since, nor have I received any preferential treatment. No preferential treatment is shown, that I have ever seen! When the President retires his Son will take the helm of the company. Also not a Mason!! No, masons do look after their own, but had you read what I wrote which is , we look out for each other on personal matters i.e. help with bills or sick relatives or moving and community things i.e. building or repairing school fences (I am a welder) or playground equipment or tiling the senior center for easier wheelchair access. No a Mason will not show special treatment in the professional world! Companies don't make money by hiring unqualified people, Masonic or not. There is just as much a chance of that as there is Joe Blow from the golf club getting a cushy job because he is a member of a members only golf club with John Smith.

Thanks

Geeve

LOL It is funny that you relate it to a golf club. I have personal knowledge of multi-million dollar deals being made on the strength of aiding with membership to the golf club.
I am sorry but I don’t actually buy that no preferential treatment is ever shown between masons professionally. I have friends who are masons and I have seen how they have been looked after.

[thelonious]

Let me ask you then do you believe the rites and rituals you performed are just meaningless esoteric traditions that no one really understands anymore?

For the majority, yes. Very few Masons know, or even care, about the deeper meanings of the rites. However, of the millions of Masons, there are some who do indeed study and understand.

By that same token do not expect me to be silent when I see someone involved with freemasonry make statements such as "our organization's ultimate goals are good and just, all the members know everything that goes on, and our traditions are just some old silly nonsense that means nothing really outside of just exploring one's self." and not say "hold on a minute, I've got a different take on that... maybe there is something either you do not know or you are not telling us..."

I never, nor would I ever, say that our traditions are silly nonsense. Persoanlly, I believe they are sacred, and hold them as such.

The question then becomes are you certain the rites they practice were created in South Carolina?

They were not. They are derived from the Rite of Perfection and Philosophical Rite, both of which originated in France.

[geeve420]

LOL It is funny that you relate it to a golf club. I have personal knowledge of multi-million dollar deals being made on the strength of aiding with membership to the golf club.
I am sorry but I don’t actually buy that no preferential treatment is ever shown between masons professionally. I have friends who are masons and I have seen how they have been looked after.

I wasn't relating Masonry to a Golf club, what I was saying was and you made the point for me, There are more shady dealings in Old Boys Clubs such as Golf clubs or even cigar clubs than there are in Masonic Lodges. As far as your friends are concerned then they have gone against what they were supposed to learn in Masonry. Here in the states as part of your obligation and charge you are not to use other Masons for personal gain.

Thanks

Geeve

[red_ram]

To answer the original question, my feelings about the Masons aren't strong enough for the thought to even enter my head. Even if it did, I'd not be sure of knowing any alternatives.

[chestnutlodge]

Critical - I was not aware of any hospitals where the Nazi's fund it. Do you? I do know that masonry funds hospitals. So the question is not on the same level.

I also note that you have masonic friends, mixing with the enemy! You say you have seen how they have been looked after. Do you have a genuine example where a mason who was completly unsuited was given preference over somebody more suitable. Could you also be believing this to be true and therefore are jealous?

[critical_analysis]

Critical - I was not aware of any hospitals where the Nazi's fund it. Do you? I do know that masonry funds hospitals. So the question is not on the same level.

I also note that you have masonic friends, mixing with the enemy! You say you have seen how they have been looked after. Do you have a genuine example where a mason who was completly unsuited was given preference over somebody more suitable. Could you also be believing this to be true and therefore are jealous?
Wow that was quite a bitchy response, have I upset you sweetheart?
I have a few comments:

I am not aware of any Masonic hospitals, just because you are not aware of any funded by Nazi’s does not mean they do not exist. Besides which I was under the impression this was a theoretical question, am I mistaken?
Is someone actually injured and in need of medical attention? No? Then I guess I was correct in my assumption and that in order for the question to be addressed it did not require actual circumstances to be present. The analogy I used was sound. I added a group I suspected you were not particularly keen on and posed the same question of you that you posed to others, yet now you have refused to answer and provided the weakest of reasons for not doing so.
Either answer the question I asked or retract your original question.


Regarding your second point:
Firstly, where have I claimed that Masons are my enemy?
Secondly I would hardly start talking about intimate details on the internet, especially with someone who refuses to answer a simple question which was in a similar vein to one he himself asked.

I am not jealous of anyone why would I be? I honestly can’t grumble with the hand life dealt me and to be honest out of the two of us here you certainly seem the more bitter and there-for probably more prone to emotions driven by bitterness such as jealousy.
The evidence being that you were the one that resorted to trying to attack my character rather than dealing with the question I posed.

[chestnutlodge]

Critical - Masonic hospitals existed in the UK until reltively recently and do exist in the US through the Shriners. In the UK freemasonry donates large sums of money to medical research. Useful when one is ill. So rather than being theoretical it is an actual question.

You said "just because you are not aware of any funded by Nazi’s does not mean they do not exist". Do you know of any that exist? If not then you can not compare fiction and non fiction. Is anyone injured? No. Could this event actually happen? Yes.

You said "yet now you have refused to answer and provided the weakest of reasons for not doing so." Where is the weak reason? You have asked a question which is theoretical as neither of us knows of a Nazi hospital. On the other hand masonic hospitals and research recieve funding from freemasons. Fact.

You could of course provide evidence of your statement as to your friends, without mentioning specifics. Other posters refer to complete nonsense when making their posts with no shred of evidence.

I am keen for you to show how through my postings I am bitter and emotions driven by jealousy. I attacked your character? I asked if you were jealous, if that constitutes bitterness, jealoust and an attack on character, please read what has been posted by your fellow forumites about freemasons in general specific people and see who is displaying those jealous traits.

How could something so trivial upset me and sarcasm using sweetheart does nothing. If I had used the term, I would have heaps of posting calling me a sexist.

[critical_analysis]

Hmm I find it interesting that you have chosen to focus on certain parts of my post while ignoring other more important parts. Let’s kick all the nonsense about who is jealous and having friends who have benefited by being part of the masons and stick to the main point of my post. If my claims regarding my friends are not valid without me providing evidence then that is fine, I retract the statement.

Allow me to refer you to the most important part of my previous post, which you seemed to have ignored, I can’t imagine why. :rolleyes:



I am not aware of any Masonic hospitals, just because you are not aware of any funded by Nazi’s does not mean they do not exist. Besides which I was under the impression this was a theoretical question, am I mistaken?
Is someone actually injured and in need of medical attention? No? Then I guess I was correct in my assumption and that in order for the question to be addressed it did not require actual circumstances to be present. The analogy I used was sound. I added a group I suspected you were not particularly keen on and posed the same question of you that you posed to others, yet now you have refused to answer and provided the weakest of reasons for not doing so.
Either answer the question I asked or retract your original question.

[mike martin]

Like I say a silly question.
You might be anti water fluoridation but if you are dying of thirst you would be a fool not to drink some water from the tap.
Let me now ask you a question. Are you against Nazism?
Imagine you found yourself in a foreign land and you or your child had an accident.
Imagine the only hospital that happened to be reachable was funded by Nazi’s.
Would you allow yourself to get treated or would you stand by the same lofty principals you hold others too and refuse treatment and accept your fate, feeling good because you had made a moral stand?
Well actually there are always alternatives. If I was against fluoridation, I would drink bottled water!

The nazi response was both simplistic and totally missing the point, if there was a Nazi country I wouldn't visit it in the first place. My point was that we Freemasons donate our own money (we don't collect from others like the Rotary or Lions) to many services that people take for granted and which may actually cease to exist if we stopped. This is called Philanthropy (concern for others less well off than ourselves), a concept that appears to have been forgotten in this cynical age but is strongly inculcated in being a Mason.

You operate within society in such a way as to look after your own, in doing this someone else is losing out. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
When one of you guys gets a job because he shook the interviewers hand in a certain way, someone who was perhaps more qualified for the role was overlooked. There-for you are taking more than your fair share from society, this is robbery on a grand scale.

I worked for the Civil Service for more than 15 years, in that time I only ever met 3 other Civil servants who were also Masons. I took on many people during that time all were chosen on their ability to do the job, I've never knowingly employed a Freemason as none of them ever tried to identify themselves as such. So all you are really doing is recycling an old prejudice.

Mike

[mike martin]

Just because something is presented this way on the surface level does not mean that is the reality of the situation. Let me ask you then do you believe the rites and rituals you performed are just meaningless esoteric traditions that no one really understands anymore? If so, then you do not really understand the world you involved yourself in.
I don't believe that they are meaningless although I can agree that not all Masons get the point.

By that same token do not expect me to be silent when I see someone involved with freemasonry make statements such as "our organization's ultimate goals are good and just, all the members know everything that goes on, and our traditions are just some old silly nonsense that means nothing really outside of just exploring one's self." and not say "hold on a minute, I've got a different take on that... maybe there is something either you do not know or you are not telling us..."
I need to ask you something. Are you willing to blindly believe what people who are not part of Freemasonry say about it is true? Especially when people who are part of it give you a totally opposed opinion of those things.

You may well have had a bad experience linked to Freemasonry but I'm willing to bet that it was only with an individual (or 2) and not with a Lodge or a Grand Lodge or Freemasonry as a whole.

Mike

[kblood]

I believe the Freemason hospitals dont really need to operate differently than regular hospitals. They still only aim for treating symptoms rather than the curing the root of the problem. Medicin today usually doesnt cure something, it merely stops something, instead of letting the body do it, so it that kind of disease happens again, the body wont be able to fight it as well as if the medication had not been used.

[critical_analysis]

Well actually there are always alternatives. If I was against fluoridation, I would drink bottled water!
I won’t even bother dragging this on since the point I was making was obvious and you are just trying to add as much confusion into the mix as possible as a means to avoid addressing the real issue. Fine, you would drink bottled water, well done for standing by your morals!


The Nazi response was both simplistic and totally missing the point, if there was a Nazi country I wouldn't visit it in the first place.
I made no mention of the hospital being in a Nazi country, simply that the hospital was funded by a Nazi organisation or even an individual Nazi ( To tie it in even more closely to your own question regarding the paramedic).

There were two key factors in your question.
1. That you require help.
2. That the person/entity that can provide you with the help required are funded or directly connected to an organisation that you have negative feelings towards.

My analogy covers both those angles.
I also stated very clearly that both the question you posed and the question I posed were theoretical and obviously when dealing with such theoretical questions you have to make certain assumptions.
In the case of your question you have to assume that there is no alternative help available. You also have to assume that you, or someone who is with you are not medically trained and able to deal with the situation. You also have to assume that you know the person who is offering help is linked to the masons in some way. See lots of assumptions have to be made, people could have raised a million and one issues around your question if they were trying as hard as you to avoid answering.


My point was that we Freemasons donate our own money (we don't collect from others like the Rotary or Lions) to many services that people take for granted and which may actually cease to exist if we stopped.

This is an interesting response. It is interesting because it is an outright lie!
This was not your point at all and rather than me explaining what your point was I will simply quote your post from the OP.

The point being if you really believe that Freemasons are up to the stuff some of you say, do you ensure that you avoid anything which has been assisted by money from Freemasons.

Mike

So the point you were making , when the quoted text is coupled with the theoretical situation you set out of requiring medical assistance, was...

If an organisation that you do not trust or do not like helped to fund a hospital would you allow them to save your life or the life of your child.

Now you and I both know that the analogy I used was fair but we also both know that by you answering you leave yourself in one of two unpleasant places, so you are trying your very best to avoid answering.

The two outcomes are:

1. You say you would not use the medical services and would stand by your morals even in a life threatening situation.

Now no-one would believe this so you would look disingenuous and be seen as someone who would rather lie than address a difficult question in an honest manner.
You would also look like a terrible, cold hearted person if this was applied to the question of the child requiring assistance.

2. You say you would accept the help.

In this case you would look like a hypocrite.

Now I have broken down the options in your own terms as this was clearly where you where trying to push people.
From my own point of view it does not work like that, hence me originally stating that it was a stupid question.
Accepting their help is obviously the sensible thing to do. In doing so this would not make you a hypocrite as accepting help is certainly not the same as supporting their cause.

So Mike Martin, are you going to stop playing games and answer the question?
Or are you going to retract your question and admit that it was both unfair and stupid.

[darketernal]

I don't believe that they are meaningless although I can agree that not all Masons get the point.


I need to ask you something. Are you willing to blindly believe what people who are not part of Freemasonry say about it is true? Especially when people who are part of it give you a totally opposed opinion of those things.

You may well have had a bad experience linked to Freemasonry but I'm willing to bet that it was only with an individual (or 2) and not with a Lodge or a Grand Lodge or Freemasonry as a whole.

Mike


Willing to bet? How much? You've made a rather large assumption oh great illuminated one.

[thelonious]

I believe the Freemason hospitals dont really need to operate differently than regular hospitals. They still only aim for treating symptoms rather than the curing the root of the problem.

Unfortunately, at the present time, the United States does not have a publicly-funded universal health care system, like you guys in Europe have. There are millions of Americans without health insurance, and millions more who have insurance, but their policies may not cover specific needs.

Therefore, different Masonic organizations have opened hospitals, burn centers, etc., and fund them in order to help people who need such thing, especially children. These are truly great projects, and we need them here in the USA.

However, Freemasonry is not primarily a charitable organization. Charity is simply a side-effect of its teachings. Personally, I don't think the fraternity's charitable aspect should be the be-all end-all of Freemasonry.

[mike martin]

I won’t even bother dragging this on since the point I was making was obvious and you are just trying to add as much confusion into the mix as possible as a means to avoid addressing the real issue. Fine, you would drink bottled water, well done for standing by your morals!
I wasn't trying to conuse anything, it seemed clear enough in my head when i wrote it. I was only trying to point out that there are alternatives. I have nothing against fluoridated water I have been drinking it for 42 years.
I made no mention of the hospital being in a Nazi country, simply that the hospital was funded by a Nazi organisation or even an individual Nazi ( To tie it in even more closely to your own question regarding the paramedic).
Ahh I missed the point there.

The difficulty with the tie-in aspect is that only the bit about the person being in difficulty, in my question, is hypothetical, the services being funded in part and wholly by Freemasons are the real thing and actually happens here today.

I personally would have a problem with an organistion being funded by Nazis and as you say it's a difficult call but thankfully there aren't any.

This is an interesting response. It is interesting because it is an outright lie!
Ahh you don't know how the Grand Charity is funded nor that Lodges raise money for Charity during our meetings and not by hitting the streets and rattling buckets at people.

This was not your point at all and rather than me explaining what your point was I will simply quote your post from the OP.

So the point you were making , when the quoted text is coupled with the theoretical situation you set out of requiring medical assistance, was...
Actually you are digging far too deep, I'm not that clever! I was just trying to guage how serious the dislike for Freemasonry is here and if it was totally irrational.

However, you have done a nice job of turning the question back on me and that is interesting as it is allegedly a Masonic tactic:D.
Mike

[critical_analysis]

I personally would have a problem with an organistion being funded by Nazis and as you say it's a difficult call but thankfully there aren't any.

Wow! So you would allow yourself or your child to die rather than accept help from a Nazi? Honestly?
I have to say that is pretty sick! I could not even watch someone else’s child die in such a manner. While I detest Nazi’s as much as the next man, perhaps even more given my perspective, I know I could not watch any child (let alone my own) die without doing all I could to prevent it.
Each to their own I guess, we are all built differently.


However, you have done a nice job of turning the question back on me and that is interesting as it is allegedly a Masonic tactic:D.
Mike
It is one of your tricks, though on the evidence of this thread I would say you are adept (no pun intended) at avoiding questions generally.
Fair play though you answered in the end and admitted you would let the child die.
(Slightly under-handed but warranted given the nature of the thread ;) )

[critical_analysis]

Sorry to bump...
Still cant get over the fact you would allow your child to die rather than get treated by a Nazi, Mike.
:eek::confused:

[mike martin]

Sorry to bump...
Still cant get over the fact you would allow your child to die rather than get treated by a Nazi, Mike.
:eek::confused:

I'd suggest readng all of my response rather than just the quote. My reply had a lot more to it.

Mike

[kblood]

Unfortunately, at the present time, the United States does not have a publicly-funded universal health care system, like you guys in Europe have. There are millions of Americans without health insurance, and millions more who have insurance, but their policies may not cover specific needs.

Therefore, different Masonic organizations have opened hospitals, burn centers, etc., and fund them in order to help people who need such thing, especially children. These are truly great projects, and we need them here in the USA.

However, Freemasonry is not primarily a charitable organization. Charity is simply a side-effect of its teachings. Personally, I don't think the fraternity's charitable aspect should be the be-all end-all of Freemasonry.

True, I was in the US, and they charged like 2000$ to suck heroin out of a drug dealers lungs. Fortunately our social security card also covers when in other countries. I dont know if they managed to get the money from it though, since I wasnt the patient myself. If I am mortaly wounded I usually find better ways than going to a hospital to heal or regenerate.

Still that price isnt all that bad considering how many people is needed to do such and operation, and how long it probably takes, plus the recovery time at the hospital isnt free either. So yes, hospitals are a good thing, and I dont care wether Masons built them or not.

Also if masonry is as corrupt as some of us believe on this forum, it wouldnt make sense if they did treat patients in bad ways, since it would be bad for the overall image masonry has, and the main purpose of the charity was to promote freemasonry according to the conspiracy theorists I have heard...

Still, I actually do believe Masonry is only as corrupt as the masons choose to make it, and that even top masons actually do more good than bad. I still havent found enough evidence to prove anything else. If I do, I will share it right away :)

[chrism]

Still, I actually do believe Masonry is only as corrupt as the masons choose to make it, and that even top masons actually do more good than bad. I still havent found enough evidence to prove anything else. If I do, I will share it right away :)

It seems like common sense is making a breakthrough!

Shame there is not more of it. I hope when you find evidence you will share with us in the spirit of enquiry that has marked your posts so far.

Regards

Chris

[icke and ham]

It seems like common sense is making a breakthrough!

Shame there is not more of it. I hope when you find evidence you will share with us in the spirit of enquiry that has marked your posts so far.

Regards

Chris

That's what I've been asking so much. Evidence. So far all the checkable evidence is from the masons. Every time I tried to get ES to help me understand why the mason's were so bad, he ignored me. (My normal place in life lol) But its like a lot of bad news - publish the bad stuff without backing evidence but forget it when you hear a good story.

Come on Icke fans, some of us are eager to hear some good reasons why the duke and his frioends are so evil - im open either way but i must say they are winning on points so far :)

[jacob sladder]

That's what I've been asking so much. Evidence. So far all the checkable evidence is from the masons. Every time I tried to get ES to help me understand why the mason's were so bad, he ignored me. (My normal place in life lol) But its like a lot of bad news - publish the bad stuff without backing evidence but forget it when you hear a good story.

Come on Icke fans, some of us are eager to hear some good reasons why the duke and his frioends are so evil - im open either way but i must say they are winning on points so far :)

Well, that's about one of the most sensible points I've seen posted on this forum.

Could I ask - is your username a pun from the TV series 'V' ?

JS

[geronimo]

Come on! Just one little chip!

:D

Well, the UK cops must be singing and dancing, thelonious. Have you read the news? they're going to get microchipped! Now, It is assumed that tracking bracelets, such as are worn by delinquents, will be issued, but since the exact procedure is HUSH-HUSH, we won't actually find out whether the microchip is to going be:

a) worn on the wrist

b) implanted under the skin

c) inserted into their brains

Come on! Just one little chip! It won't hurt!

geronimo

[thelonious]

Well, the UK cops must be singing and dancing, thelonious. Have you read the news?

Nope, I'm a Yank.