Opposition to Being Vegetarian

[kingmonkey]

This is my first post so...Hi everyone.

I've just recently become a vegan for both health reasons and ethical ones. Since the change I have encountered nothing but opposition to my chosen lifestyle, with everyone telling me what a bad idea it is and how unhealthy i'm likely to become. Why is it that people(most of whom i might add take no particular interest in their own health) suddenly become nutrition experts the minute the subject of not eating meat comes up! Also, I think it's rather patronizing that they just assume you don't read or study before you make these sort of decisions. Just wondered if anyone has encountered this type of thing.

P.S. I read in another thread where someone was saying the alternative health companies push soya etc as healthy just to make money. The dairy and meat industry would never do that would they?! :rolleyes:

[mr_self_destruct]

I've been vegetarian for four years and some people definitely think it's a bit weird and unhealthy. It's just the herd mentality, people are raised from birth to regard eating meat as "the way it is" and don't even think about why they do it, or the ethical or health implications.

It's the same with all things that are regarded as "the way it is". I stopped boozing a couple of years ago and like vegetarianism, some people think that's such a weird thing to do...is it weirder than pouring a depressing, personality-altering poison down your neck? Don't think so!

At the end of the day you have to live with it and not care about the opinions of others, or try and change people's opinions and risk being interpreted as a lecturing bore (I choose the former).

[revolutionary_jam]

I think it's ridiculous how so many ppl try to "convert" vegetarians back and then call veggies stuck up elitists etc. omg

I think the best thing to do is only mention your veggie or veganness if you have to inform someone or soemone asks

[kingmonkey]

hi,
yeah, i've been cutting back on the drink as well with the aim of cutting it out altogether. When i drink it certainly alters my moods and usually not for the better. The idea of not drinking alcohol is completely alien to a hell of a lot of people, (especially in the U.K) and when you refuse drinks you find yourself defending your decision. Like the alternatives of bad decision making, mental instability, potential violence and ill health are a viable alternative to stopping!

With the vegetarian thing i generally keep it to myself anyway unless it comes up. It was mainly the wall of crap that shot up when i mentioned i'd given up meat that annoyed me and the complete lack of support.

They won't grind me down though :)

[cl2008]

If I can I'd be a complete vegan but the body NEEDS MEAT.

So I just eat meat around once a day or once every other day. And a small portion too.

[kingmonkey]

Why does it "need meat"? I can understand meat contains in abundance a lot of things the body needs, but my understanding is that they can all be found elsewhere.

[northern_light]

I know what you mean, Iv'e experienced skepticism from my family, especially my dad(who's an angler btw). They really have no argument to why I shouldn't eat meat since, to be honest, I'm in much better shape and have a higher energy level than any of them. All they can come up with is that I'm wierd, but I guess they figured that out a while ago:D Even though I stopped eating meat half a year ago, no one else knows about it, though I know some are getting quite suspicious.

I've noticed there is this huge defence mode that sets in at the very moment you even mention vegetarianism to a meat eater. You break the cultural norm and people probably feel like you challenge their morals and awareness by stating your decision. I actually got quite the reaction when I cleaned my diet from fast food, sweets and sodas four years ago, I can only imagine what hysteria would ensue if they got to know the latest news:D Honestly, I don't really give a shit what they think about my diet, but I wont tell them unless they ask me directly, why would I?

[kingmonkey]

"You must eat meat to be one of us" otherwise be shunned by the pack. :) You could put it down to evolution and a natural reaction, but humans through history, have been gatherers more often than hunters.

[karmic]

If I can I'd be a complete vegan but the body NEEDS MEAT.

So I just eat meat around once a day or once every other day. And a small portion too.
im a veggi but my son and daughter outlaw(there not married lol)are both vegans have been for about 15 years both my grand kids are vegans and have never eaten meat they are all very healthy there is absolutely no reason to eat meat our bodys store undigested meat in our bowel for years try doing a detox and see what comes out a lady i knew detoxed and produced a wax crayon she had eaten as a four year old

[sebastian]

Hi everyone...I am a former competitive bodybuilder, and work as a nutritionist now specializing in healthy living. I eat no animal products as I do not see them fit in a optimal diet. See, I am very familiar with meat since was eating at least 1 kg a day ofen combined with at least 15-30 eggwithes or 15 whole eggs. I do not bodybuild anymore but try to give my body the proper nutrition it needs to function optimally. You can say I'm a vegan :). I didn't choose to be one, I just started eliminating everything I didn't think was beneficial, optimal, whatever you wanna call it, out of mydiet and was left with a vegetarian( or vegan?....no animal products anyway).

Of course I bump into plenty of people who dismiss this and that and explain me how they crave meat :rolleyes:...but I just explain them how everything works to the smallest details so they ussually get frustrated and just resort to : " I just need it " when their arguments run out.

My point is that if u take the time to research everything , you will realize that meat is not the answer. I strongly believe that our civilisation at it's origin was an agricultural one and that our digestive system is not built for animal products. I do believe that we adapted to meat later as we were introduced to meat and alcohol later when our buddies reptiles tinkered with us.

[red_ram]

I eat meat because I like it. But if you don't want to, no one has any business telling you what you can and can't eat. And, I'm not going to pretend my diet is any healthier than yours.:D

Sooner or later, you'll find more and more people on your wavelength.

[smariot]

If I don't get to complain about humans abusing/consuming/exploiting animals, why should you get to complain about reptillians/aliens/demons/whatever abusing/consuming/exploiting humans?

[gordonfreeman]

It's very ironic.

Humans VS Animals, Animals rebel against humans.
Dark Aliens VS Humans, Humans rebel against the demons.

[khamedra19]

If I don't get to complain about humans abusing/consuming/exploiting animals, why should you get to complain about reptillians/aliens/demons/whatever abusing/consuming/exploiting humans?


Good point!

[sebastian]

If I don't get to complain about humans abusing/consuming/exploiting animals, why should you get to complain about reptillians/aliens/demons/whatever abusing/consuming/exploiting humans?

excellent point..I find animal treatment appalling.

[element]

Also, animal abuse is fact. Alien/reptilian is most of all speculation.

[sebastian]

Also, animal abuse is fact. Alien/reptilian is most of all speculation.
here's a little speculation for you courtesy of Cathy O'Brien's " Trance Formation of America "

".....
CHAPTER 25 - BUSH BABY

It was late evening when Bush and Cheney finished programming me with numerous messages pertaining to the immediate opening of the Juarez, Mexican border to free (drug and slave) trade. They then took me downstairs to the living quarters of the western cedar and redwood structure where Kelly soon joined us. George Bush, Jr. deposited my obviously traumatized and withdrawn child at the door. Referring to The Most Dangerous Game she told me in a quiet, defeated and sad voice, "I was caught same as you".

In retrospect, I do not know if she was actually hunted (I can only hope she was not). Regardless, this reinforced the fact that I had been caught and therefore was "responsible" (when in fact I was not) for everything that happened to Kelly from that point on.

The decor of the residence area reflected Cheney’s primitive, rustic, western preference. Like his "ultra secret" Pentagon Bunkhouse, use of leather was in abundance. The main room was small, but appeared larger due to an infinity mirror on one wall. The room was decorated in mirror fashion with one side looking like the other. Centered between two facing black leather sofas was a coffee table littered with drugs and paraphernalia. Bush and Cheney were sitting in matching black leather recliners angled towards the large stone fireplace where a fire was blazing, illuminating and heating the room.

Heroin, Bush’s drug of choice, was in abundance and Cheney joined him in using it. The smorgasbord of drugs laid out supposedly included opium, cocaine, and Wonderland Wafers (MDMHA-XTC aka ecstasy), which indicated to me they intended to celebrate their vacation with abandon. I had seen Cheney stumbling drunk before, but this was the only time I saw him use heroin and give it to me. Kelly, too, was subjected to the drugs.

Bush attempted to sell Cheney on the idea of pedophilia through graphic descriptions of having sex with Kelly. Both were already sexually aroused from drugs and anticipation. Cheney demonstrated to Bush why he did not have sex with kids by exposing himself to Kelly and saying, "Come here".



Upon seeing Cheney’s unusually large penis, Kelly reeled back in horror and cried, "No!" which made them both laugh. Bush asked Cheney for his liquid cocaine atomizer as he got up to take Kelly to the bedroom. When Cheney remarked how benevolent it was of Bush to numb her with it before sex, Bush replied, "The hell it is. It’s for me." He described his excited state in typical vulgar terms and explained that he wanted it to spray cocaine on his penis to last longer.

Cheney said, "I thought it was for the kid." Bush explained, "Half the fun is having them squirm." He took Kelly’s hand and led her off to the bedroom. Cheney told me that since I was "responsible" for Bush’s assault on my daughter by being caught in A Most Dangerous Game, I would "burn" (in hell).



He burned my inner thigh with the fireplace poker, and threatened to throw Kelly in the fire. He hypnotically enhanced his description of her burning to traumatize me deeply. As he sexually brutalized me, I heard Kelly’s whimpers coming from the bedroom. As her cries grew louder, Cheney turned on classical music to drown out her cries for help.

At 4:00 am, as ordered, Bush Jr. (and his helicopter pilot) came to retrieve Kelly and me. We were flown (by helicopter) back to the Lake Shasta area where Houston and the motor home awaited us. Bush’s assault of Kelly proved to be a mind shattering experience for me, and physically devastating to Kelly.



She was in dire need of medical attention and was unable even to move. Houston threatened to stop the motor home in the Yosemite area and throw me from a steep cliff if I didn’t settle down. His threats and commands could not control my hysteria, as much of his control programming had inadvertently shattered. Fearful he would lose both his "money-makers," Houston permitted me to telephone Kelly’s doctor and begin administering medicines.



As for me, he arranged for assistance in picking up the pieces in order that I complete my primary purpose in traveling to California, i.e., meet with Mexican President Miguel de La Madrid and finalize plans Co-open the Juarez border.

.........."



I know it's traumatizing to read but I believe is even more traumatizing NOT TO KNOW !

FOR FURTHER EDIFICATION ON WHO'SIN CONTROL OFOUR DESTINY :


http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/transformation/transformation.htm

[empyblessing]

Was Christ a Vegetarian? http://www.ivu.org/history/christian/christ_veg.html

When you eat beef, you support murder, torture and violence:
http://www.naturalnews.com/022666.html

Cattle raised for beef cause more damage to planet than emissions from cars, report finds: http://www.NaturalNews.com/021296.html

High intake of meat leads to colon cancer, researchers findhttp://www.naturalnews.com/020683.html

Eating processed meats heightens risk of stomach cancer, new research reveals http://www.NaturalNews.com/019845.html

I once ridiculed vegetarians, calling them names and demeaning their lifestyle. However, now I encourage everyone to support a vegetarian lifestyle. As you eliminate things from your life, you will find that the addiction to them also fades. With time you will realize that it is not about constantly adding things to your life to make it better, but how many useless things you can remove which gives it fulfillment. There are far better sources of nutrients found in fruits, vegetables, and nuts then can be in meat.

If the amount of land used to raise and keep all of the cattle were instead transformed into spirulina (nutrient rich blue-green algae http://www.naturalways.com/spirul1.htm) it could feed the planet. So as eating meat supports torture, murder, environmental destruction, it also prevents ending world hunger.

[kingmonkey]

"With time you will realize that it is not about constantly adding things to your life to make it better, but how many useless things you can remove which gives it fulfillment."

Never a truer word spoken!

[kernelpower]

sebastien makes a valid point about our digestive systems, philip day explains it well in one of his books about the length of a lions intestines companred to a humans , and also all carnivores have hugymoungous nashers :) for tearing meat where as humans have molars for grinding up veg and fibrous material :)

Saying that I eat meat every now and then because i enjoy it !

Peace!!

[red_ram]

sebastien makes a valid point about our digestive systems, philip day explains it well in one of his books about the length of a lions intestines companred to a humans , and also all carnivores have hugymoungous nashers :) for tearing meat where as humans have molars for grinding up veg and fibrous material :)

Saying that I eat meat every now and then because i enjoy it !

Peace!!

I would agree with the above.

[sebastian]

When you look at the comparison between herbivores and humans, we compare much more closely to herbivores than meat eating animals. Humans are clearly not designed to digest and ingest meat.



Meat-eaters: have claws

Herbivores: no claws

Humans: no claws



Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue

Herbivores: perspire through skin pores

Humans: perspire through skin pores



Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding

Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding

Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding



Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly

Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.

Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.



Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat

Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater

Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater



Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.

Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits

Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits



Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains

Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains

Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains

Based on a chart by A.D. Andrews, Fit Food for Men, (Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970)





Clearly if humans were meant to eat meat we wouldn't have so many crucial ingestive/digestive similarities with animals that are herbivores.

[kingmonkey]

When you look at the comparison between herbivores and humans, we compare much more closely to herbivores than meat eating animals. Humans are clearly not designed to digest and ingest meat.



Meat-eaters: have claws

Herbivores: no claws

Humans: no claws



Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue

Herbivores: perspire through skin pores

Humans: perspire through skin pores



Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding

Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding

Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding



Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly

Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.

Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.



Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat

Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater

Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater



Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.

Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits

Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits



Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains

Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains

Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains

Based on a chart by A.D. Andrews, Fit Food for Men, (Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970)





Clearly if humans were meant to eat meat we wouldn't have so many crucial ingestive/digestive similarities with animals that are herbivores.

Great post!

[madthumbs]

Why are we being compared to herbivores and carnivores? We are OMNIVORES like dogs, and...

Chimp Hunts with a Spear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt5cx_nc3Jw

Adolescent female Tumbo isolates a potential spear and modifies it. She begins to jab it into a tree to spear her prey. She then climbs the tree and begins jumping on the large limb, which eventually breaks off, allowing her to reach in and retrieve the prey, a bushbaby (Galago senegalensis).

Bushbaby
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/5219/128117dm3.th.jpg (http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=128117dm3.jpg)

[eternal_spirit]

hi,
yeah, i've been cutting back on the drink as well with the aim of cutting it out altogether. When i drink it certainly alters my moods and usually not for the better. The idea of not drinking alcohol is completely alien to a hell of a lot of people, (especially in the U.K) and when you refuse drinks you find yourself defending your decision. Like the alternatives of bad decision making, mental instability, potential violence and ill health are a viable alternative to stopping!

With the vegetarian thing i generally keep it to myself anyway unless it comes up. It was mainly the wall of crap that shot up when i mentioned i'd given up meat that annoyed me and the complete lack of support.

They won't grind me down though :)

.....................

One of the best
things I ever did was stop drinking almost entirely, I used too drink way to much way too often. Of course the lad culture football pints etc all fun when you're younger but seriously the devil's urine will kill you or mess you up eventually, physically or mentally or both.

The worst you may miss out on is social drinking ( but then again most people talk utter shite when drunk ):rolleyes:

The only real down side is it seems nearly all women in the UK, think you're a weirdo if you don't like gerrin pissed typed it as they speak it.

So, dating can be difficult. You have a few options, pretend you're alergic to alcohol ;) And once you get your dick in later that night she'll be gald to have a nice sober hard one up her. :D

No Mr Brewers Droop.

Or, there's a rumour that wine can cause breast cancer in women ( this is serious )

[sebastian]

.....................

One of the best
things I ever did was stop drinking almost entirely, I used too drink way to much way too often. Of course the lad culture football pints etc all fun when you're younger but seriously the devil's urine will kill you or mess you up eventually, physically or mentally or both.

The worst you may miss out on is social drinking ( but then again most people talk utter shite when drunk ):rolleyes:

The only real down side is it seems nearly all women in the UK, think you're a weirdo if you don't like gerrin pissed typed it as they speak it.

So, dating can be difficult. You have a few options, pretend you're alergic to alcohol ;) And once you get your dick in later that night she'll be gald to have a nice sober hard one up her. :D

No Mr Brewers Droop.

Or, there's a rumour that wine can cause breast cancer in women ( this is serious )

I stoped drinking alltoghether, I stopped meat and animal byproducts also....no refined sugars, no starch...etc....I write diets for people to loose weight to eat healthy....so I experiment a lot on myself....plus I like practicing what I preach.

[eternal_spirit]

How long ago did you give up meat? And how much muscle/weight etc have you lost since the body building? And do you do other forms of exercise instead these days?

I was back and forth from veggie to vegan for about 12 years and reverted to eating meat the past six months:( And can't say I have noticed any benefits to returning to eating the odd bit of meat which is now only fish, but gave up dairy and never touch milk.

I've been doing weights most my life, but I'm a bit thin and couldn't eat all that meat and eggs you used too.

Do you think carrots, apples and potatos are good for building muscle or any other vegetarian suggestions?

[kingmonkey]

The only real down side is it seems nearly all women in the UK, think you're a weirdo if you don't like gerrin pissed
Haha, most women think I'm a weirdo anyway so that won't make a huge difference :D

Probably coz I talk shit when I'm drunk...

I've tried and failed to weight train about a dozen times. I start to see the diffrerences but just can't maintain it. That's the thing though, i could never keep up the diet.

[sebastian]

How long ago did you give up meat? And how much muscle/weight etc have you lost since the body building? And do you do other forms of exercise instead these days?

I was back and forth from veggie to vegan for about 12 years and reverted to eating meat the past six months:( And can't say I have noticed any benefits to returning to eating the odd bit of meat which is now only fish, but gave up dairy and never touch milk.

I've been doing weights most my life, but I'm a bit thin and couldn't eat all that meat and eggs you used too.

Do you think carrots, apples and potatos are good for building muscle or any other vegetarian suggestions?

Since givingup completely bodybuilding as a lifestyle, changing eating habits from muscle building/ maintaining to healthy.....I lost 17 kgs in 2 months....

I bodybuilded for 17 years on and off.. competed and have been trained by some of the best (Ron Love ) .

Buildingmuscle is a lot of calories...and that's carbs and proteins....lots...not healthy at all....and without hormones and steroids the human body has a hard time recovering from workouts let alonebuild muscle.

The body is not built to hold muscle....as in big muscles....to maintain a lot ofmuscle u need a lot of food, hormones, steroids, fatburners....an entire pharmacy and a grocerystore :(

when u stop ingesting all the crap u need to maintain or build muscle....your body reverts to it's normal self in matter of months....I'll show u a picture of me normally ...and one with me with muscle. Skinny pic is 75 kg...muscle pic is 105 kg ....

[eternal_spirit]

Interesting Sebastian. Any kind of other exercising you'd recommend? Too stay toned in shape etc, that's more natural for a human body?

[pilgrim]

I read in another thread where someone was saying the alternative health companies push soya etc as healthy just to make money. The dairy and meat industry would never do that would they?! :rolleyes:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22093&page=7
Post #65 onwards

[pilgrim]

... is presented here:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22093&page=12

[sebastian]

Interesting Sebastian. Any kind of other exercising you'd recommend? Too stay toned in shape etc, that's more natural for a human body?

Walking outside in the middle of the nature I find refreshing...maybe trying energetic exercising such as tai chi ...

I would recomend u listening to Michael Tsarion on yoga...which he believes originally was developed in Lemuria to condition out our REPTILIAN part of the DNA aka the EGO.

I played a bit of tennis on the pro circuit in my early twenties also so I play a bit of tennis for fun in the summer...

[hutanic]

Upon seeing Cheney’s unusually large penis, Kelly reeled back in horror and cried, "No!" which made them both laugh.

http://writingcompany.blogs.com/this_isnt_writing_its_typ/images/dick_cheney.jpg

Just a little confirmation :)

Ok now to topic about food,


I love meat and as far as my desire for taste goes wouldn't mind eating it for a whole life time but we are all here in position to achieve something more then to act as mindless animals and living only for physical pleasures, why not work towards it? Souls that are in animal body's also suffer, yes they are of lower "intellect" and not as aware as human being can be but never the less one soul is suffering just so that other can have tasty meal, and to me personally it is not correct way to live my life. If one stops eating meat it wont stop this slaughter industry, but may bring changes on personal level.

Some souls achieved to live in there body's with out taking any form of food be it plant or meat, and such things are available to us all, so it really falls down to decision one makes as to what he will become by life he lives.

Take care all

[pilgrim]

I love meat and as far as my desire for taste goes wouldn't mind eating it for a whole life time but we are all here in position to achieve something more then to act as mindless animals and living only for physical pleasures, why not work towards it? Souls that are in animal body's also suffer, yes they are of lower "intellect" and not as aware as human being can be but never the less one soul is suffering just so that other can have tasty meal, and to me personally it is not correct way to live my life. If one stops eating meat it wont stop this slaughter industry, but may bring changes on personal level.

Some souls achieved to live in there body's with out taking any form of food be it plant or meat, and such things are available to us all, so it really falls down to decision one makes as to what he will become by life he lives.
Yes, if you "love" meat, you may take birth as a tiger or some other carnivorius animal in your next life. Lots of lovely, fresh meat!

[empyblessing]

Yes, if you "love" meat, you may take birth as a tiger or some other carnivorius animal in your next life. Lots of lovely, fresh meat!

Wouldn't being a human be much more difficult than being a tiger?

[hutanic]

Wouldn't being a human be much more difficult than being a tiger?

One can suffer consequence of his action in many different body's including one it has now, doesn't really matter what body it is. My point was that there is justice in accordance with our own deeds.

Plus no need to focus on what may be perceived as negative outcome of ones actions when there can also be great reward for living life in appropriate manner so why stick to bestial kind of life.

[madthumbs]

http://writingcompany.blogs.com/this_isnt_writing_its_typ/images/dick_cheney.jpg

Just a little confirmation :)

Ok now to topic about food,


I love meat and as far as my desire for taste goes wouldn't mind eating it for a whole life time but we are all here in position to achieve something more then to act as mindless animals and living only for physical pleasures, why not work towards it? Souls that are in animal body's also suffer, yes they are of lower "intellect" and not as aware as human being can be but never the less one soul is suffering just so that other can have tasty meal, and to me personally it is not correct way to live my life. If one stops eating meat it wont stop this slaughter industry, but may bring changes on personal level.

Some souls achieved to live in there body's with out taking any form of food be it plant or meat, and such things are available to us all, so it really falls down to decision one makes as to what he will become by life he lives.

Take care all

He's got something in his front pocket, like a cell phone or wallet. Pockets in pants like that tend to shift.

[red_ram]

.....................

One of the best
things I ever did was stop drinking almost entirely, I used too drink way to much way too often. Of course the lad culture football pints etc all fun when you're younger but seriously the devil's urine will kill you or mess you up eventually, physically or mentally or both.

The worst you may miss out on is social drinking ( but then again most people talk utter shite when drunk ):rolleyes:

The only real down side is it seems nearly all women in the UK, think you're a weirdo if you don't like gerrin pissed typed it as they speak it.

So, dating can be difficult. You have a few options, pretend you're alergic to alcohol ;) And once you get your dick in later that night she'll be gald to have a nice sober hard one up her. :D

No Mr Brewers Droop.

Or, there's a rumour that wine can cause breast cancer in women ( this is serious )

The reason I don't drink alcohol is:

1) Beer tastes like piss.
2) Wine tastes like vinegar.
3) Loss of control.
4) It makes people behave like dicks.
5) It makes people's breath smells.

[magicmerlin]

Sebastian - is that how you look now, or when your were competitive? Are you suggesting that if you were competitive again, you could do it without meat?

thanks

[thelucifer]

I went veg 12 years ago.
When people realize im veg they change in ways seen and unseen.
I had a very dear uncle call me a dumb ass, it hurts me to this day.
Its food, why should someone judge another in the negative, because of a choice in regards to eating food ?
Because of bigotry and fear.
I did it for moral reasons alone but I never push that, I do explain the health affects in being veg.

Because people like to use the Bible to justify eating meat (which I think they do so in error) and use the book to bash vegetarians, I use the Bible to show it shows vegetarianism is the healthier choice.


Preflood peoples were vegetarian and they lived for hundreds of years, the word "meat" in the Genesis creation story means food, not animal/flesh food, it means plant food (vegetarian).

KJV
Daniel 1:12 ..."pulse" = vegetable food (vegetarian food)

Daniel, on a vegetarian diet was fatter/healthier than those on the kings food/portion.

kings meat/portion = Standard American Diet (SAD).



This might be of interest.

We are very conneced to the sea.

We are about 60% (born at 79%) water, salt water !!
the same composition as the sea.

Standing up, pour water on your head and your hair from head to toe will lay flat, we are streamline in water, no other primate.

We are water tight, we can swim under water, no other primate.

We have a fat layer (if I remember right) not found in other primates, only some aquatic animals.

We are very connected to the sea !

Coral Calcium and SeaVegg are perfect for us.
Doctors use coral calcium in bone works because the body so readily uses it.
Seavegg is kelp, kelp is 10 times richer in vitamins and minerals than any land plant.

A theory for the sea connection is we came down from the trees onto the plains and predators drove us into shallow water and we evolved these water bearing features and then came back onto the land as the premier predator.
Thats down right stupid.

The sea connection, unlike any other Primate, is a serious problem for Evolution.

[pilgrim]

I went veg 12 years ago.
When people realize im veg they change in ways seen and unseen.
I had a very dear uncle call me a dumb ass, it hurts me to this day.
Its food, why should someone judge another in the negative, because of a choice in regards to eating food ?
Because of bigotry and fear.
I did it for moral reasons alone but I never push that, I do explain the health affects in being veg.

Because people like to use the Bible to justify eating meat (which I think they do so in error) and use the book to bash vegetarians, I use the Bible to show it shows vegetarianism is the healthier choice.

Preflood peoples were vegetarian and they lived for hundreds of years, the word "meat" in the Genesis creation story means food, not animal/flesh food, it means plant food (vegetarian).

KJV
Daniel 1:12 ..."pulse" = vegetable food (vegetarian food)

Daniel, on a vegetarian diet was fatter/healthier than those on the kings food/portion.

kings meat/portion = Standard American Diet (SAD).


Great post thelucifer.

Yes, the word "meat' in the Bible actually refers to "food" in general.
eg: Sweet-Meats (Sweet Food).

Don't leat the meat-eaters get to you.
You know you're doing the right thing.

[thelucifer]

Genesis 1:
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so



Interesting, it even says the animals ate plant food.

People ask, what about animals eating other animals ?
I answer, thats between them and GOD, if a dog jumps off a bridge are you gonna jump to ?
I use the dog line because I have a friend who's dog did take the blind leap.

[supertzar]

Ironic that "mr_self_destruct" says "I have been vegetarian for four years."

I don't have a problem with people being vegetarian, but I think it leads to weakness. I was vegetarian for six years, so that is my personal experience. I see it in others as well. Some of the people who are "opposed" may just be concerned that their friend is going down the wrong road.

[patcalled]

Hello everyone,

Much of the meat these days has been made very very unhealthy from the crap they feed the animals, and also the added preservatives etc.
Processed meat has added nitrates (which are carcinogenic) to make the meat look like it has its natural color instead of looking grey, which would be unappetizing for consumers. It gets even grosser if you really look into it.
If you eat meat, only eat organic from local farmers who produce their own. I know that can be hard to find in some areas though!

I myself am thinking of going vegan!

[mr_self_destruct]

Ironic that "mr_self_destruct" says "I have been vegetarian for four years."

It's an old nickname from before I cleaned up my act ;)

[magicmerlin]

Sebastian, looks like you haven't had the time to answer my question about bodybuilding, but having had the time to read the whole thread, I see that you're no longer a bodybuilder. Now, because I am fairly heavily into recreational bodybuilding (not competitive) and I love it, I'm clearly going to present some arguments to the path you've now followed.....I hope you don't mind :p

Firstly, there are plenty of natural, vegetarian bodybuilders out there - so that does suggest meat isn't 100% necessary.

Secondly, it sounds like you were taking some form of steroid/hormones. Now, anyone who takes steroids is going to quickly lose their gains if they stop training and eating. You of all people will know that the big difference between going natural and un-natural is that while the un-natural way is faster and results in the capacity for more training, recovery and un-natural growth - natural trainers who build bulk maintain strength and muscle mass much better (and in my opinion look much better!). Ironically, I know many long term natural trainers, but much fewer steroid users who tend to be obsessed with getting huge, then lose interest when they have to come off the gear and lose all their size.

Thirdly, there are some possibly tremendous benefits of bodybuilding, such as increased colonic transit times and the big one - enhanced insulin sensitivity. You can build muscle mass with both healthy eating, or very bad eating. Regarding carbs, you could eliminate all carbs except for the workout nutrition if you so desired.

For me and thousands of others - lifting insanely heavy weights feels cleansing, relaxing and down right good!

[fromthatshow]

What about those poor vegetables?

[pilgrim]

What about those poor vegetables?
Human Must Eat!

Please See Here:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22093&page=12

post #115 onwards

[hutanic]

Actually human body can function with out food as well.

[sebastian]

Sebastian, looks like you haven't had the time to answer my question about bodybuilding, but having had the time to read the whole thread, I see that you're no longer a bodybuilder. Now, because I am fairly heavily into recreational bodybuilding (not competitive) and I love it, I'm clearly going to present some arguments to the path you've now followed.....I hope you don't mind :p

Firstly, there are plenty of natural, vegetarian bodybuilders out there - so that does suggest meat isn't 100% necessary.

Secondly, it sounds like you were taking some form of steroid/hormones. Now, anyone who takes steroids is going to quickly lose their gains if they stop training and eating. You of all people will know that the big difference between going natural and un-natural is that while the un-natural way is faster and results in the capacity for more training, recovery and un-natural growth - natural trainers who build bulk maintain strength and muscle mass much better (and in my opinion look much better!). Ironically, I know many long term natural trainers, but much fewer steroid users who tend to be obsessed with getting huge, then lose interest when they have to come off the gear and lose all their size.

Thirdly, there are some possibly tremendous benefits of bodybuilding, such as increased colonic transit times and the big one - enhanced insulin sensitivity. You can build muscle mass with both healthy eating, or very bad eating. Regarding carbs, you could eliminate all carbs except for the workout nutrition if you so desired.

For me and thousands of others - lifting insanely heavy weights feels cleansing, relaxing and down right good! not quite like this...


Natural means just food ( supplementsare worthless regardless of taking them or not ) and training

Natural limit is where you go with just those 2

Hormonized is the only way to get bigger past the naturallimit ( naturally you won't get past let's say, 1m 80 and 90 kg @ 10-11 % bodyfat )

when u stop training , eating ...natural or hormonized...either way u quickly deflate to normal in a short period of time

when u stop hormones but u continue to eat there are 2 posibilities : u deflate musclewise to your natural limit but get much fatter due to the fact that u eat so many calories and your body cannot process them , if u adjust your food intake and sources, u deflate musclewise to your natural self and maintain same bodyfat..

to gain muscle either way means gaining fat too because u gotta eat a lot od calories

to lose fat and keep muscle ( as in the ripped look ) u need hormones to sustain that muscle otherwise u shrink nexto nothing, hence the term " bonebuilding "

so either way u cannot achieve anything of significance without food and hormones/fatburners

when u work out u basically traumatize the body and it consequently builds bigger muscles to adapt to stress....to do that it needs lotsof nutrients ( and the capacity to absorb them in bigger percentage ...hence hormones, steroids....what they are designed for in the first p[lace )

Natural bodybuilding is an oxymoron, there's no such thing, anyone statingdiff is lying to you or just doesn't know.

vegetarian bb is even more difficult without hormones.

but if u wanna work out to be a bit buff and be a vegetarian, go ahead. Just cycle it with breaks like 3 months on/off so your bady gets some breaks in between and a chance to recover.

bellow are 2 examples you can see2 former pro bodybuilders....still not 100 % off drugs....due to specific reasons ( but fairly close to natural status )


http://www.levrone.com/kevin/photo/images/kevrin-red-carpet.gif

http://www.inbfnys.com/images/levrone.jpg

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0504/01/NYHETER-30s11-arnold-836_368.jpg

http://linnseek.hp.infoseek.co.jp/mirror/Arnold%20Schwarzenegger.jpg

[magicmerlin]

All natural back in the days when bodybuilding was pure, steeve reeves at his best - no hormones and no supplements, just food.

http://www.lavenderlounge.com/preview/steve_reeves.jpg

Steroid abuse has ruined bodybuilding. Building a 200lb lean physique is realistic for most guys, but it takes dedication and knowledge and 10 years of work (unlike 2 years of steroid crash and burn which i see guys doing).

[pilgrim]

I think this thread is going off topic and those "BeefCake" pictures are making me fee sick!

Opposition to Meat-Eating:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4
:(

[northern_light]

"Of course we cannot measure directly the feelings of animals, but then again, we cannot directly measure the feelings of humans either. Yes, we can listen to the expression of feelings through the language of humans but this has no more direct evidence for feelings than do the cries of animals when they suffer pain. Only through deduction, by comparing our own feelings with those around us, can we evaluate their feelings. And then we have the growing science of neurology and biology that has overturned the incorrect beliefs practiced throughout centuries.

All mammals and birds have social lives. That means complex brains. Mammal brains, especially, resemble our own mammal brains. The structure and function of non-human mammal brains do exactly what the structure and function of human brains do, with only a matter of degree.

The difference comes mostly from the large cerebral cortex and language centers of human brains. The cerebral cortex involves our higher ability to think and plan which, of course, appears larger in humans. But for the emotional and feeling part of the brain, namely the limbic system, the function and relative size appears the same in mammals.

Scientists generally think that brain size relative to body size relates to intelligence. Therefore animals with larger brain to body size, generally have higher intelligences than those with smaller brains. Humans, chimps, and dolphins, for example exhibit large brain to body sizes, and this derives mostly because of their larger cerebral cortexes. But when it comes to the emotional, feeling part of the brain, mammals have just as large a limbic system to body weight as do humans."

"Moody cows"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article416070.ece
Earthlings:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1282796533661048967&q=earthlings&total=1213&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


http://youtube.com/watch?v=7IYCxveJcj0

You thought those reptilians were sadistic and evil? Personally, I see don't see much difference in behaviour here. Think about all the fear and negative energy that is generated in this mass slaugther.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6XI50gbcfXw&feature=related


http://youtube.com/watch?v=OumJ7fp0bQY&feature=related

[sebastian]

All natural back in the days when bodybuilding was pure, steeve reeves at his best - no hormones and no supplements, just food.

http://www.lavenderlounge.com/preview/steve_reeves.jpg

Steroid abuse has ruined bodybuilding. Building a 200lb lean physique is realistic for most guys, but it takes dedication and knowledge and 10 years of work (unlike 2 years of steroid crash and burn which i see guys doing).

ok. take pen and paper and sit down for history of hormones in bodybuilding 101,,an elective credit course out of gh15 mouth free of charge. it's going to be long,,but it is the ONLY truth when it comes to bodybuilding history and bodybuilding as a whole. there will be no exam at the end Wink i will not take questions at the end. of the course it is a lecture,, so leave the questions for another day and time.

first,,i would like to start with a review of myself:

1) i am a VERY femiliar face very high regarded IFBB professional athlete,,there is not even one person in the bodybuilding industry that havent seen me or heard about my name. i WON not only competed BUT won proffessional shows before.

2) this lecure will include the such and such of bodybuilding early era (eugene, grimek, steve, bill and many more that due to limited space i wont be able to mention here) it will include key factor in that early bodybuilding era.

3) you MUST understand that i TOO like steve,, inorder for you to be able to read this all without getting crazy mad and smoke coming out of your ears. i DO respect reeves for his contribution to the bodybuilding industry and see him as one of all time best.
i write this as an education for you and your peers and anything i say here that tarnish steve reputation is not meant to do so. this is only for you to learn and penetrate deeper into the hormone/stimulant arena of the late 30s and 40s.

4) im aware of the fact that some of you younger guys (im not talking about guys in their 40s) have steve as a big role model and he deserves this spot. he passed away now for years and it is like open a pandora box for nothing you will think. i think it is good education and i think it will help you decide the way you want to persue your bodybuilding life,,(wether naturally with specific low doses of products or chemically enhanced with taking your physiqe into the higher extreme levels of the npc competition)

5) quotes will NOT be provided since i am writing out of my vast knowledge and experience on myself and on "natural athletes" and chemical enhanced athletes,,i dont have time to go look for quotes for you on the internet or bring in old dead gurus out of the grave. if 240 wants or any other computer specialist,,they will be able to provide you with quotes and references.

6) the lecute will be mostly about steve as the base and everything around it (like an octopus and its many arms) due to late debate about this subject. again steve reeves WAS natural in todays terms. 100% NATURAL IN TODAY'S TERMINOLOGY. he only experiemented with hormones/drugs in their rough stages of development.


so lets start.

"and then there came steve reeves...."

the 19th century was full of books and lliterature about hormones and stimulants for their ability to help human kind. many writers wrote about it and fantesize about it exactly like many sci fi writers fantesized about the red planet and the journy to get there.

bodybuilding was nothing those days and rarely you would find someone who was involved in any type of body-building beside eugene and few select others. they did it with passion to live healthier and "extend" their life spans. they were NATURALS in the real essense of the word,,meaning they built their end physiqe on resistance training and food only (ofcourse there were caffine later on but it was natural) they had no sophisticated supplements either. nothing but good ole food. this era ended with eugene sadly. no one ever came to this level and no one will because the world has evolved and science became reality.

the 20th century brought a lot of promises with it. people were more interested in improving their body and life styles for other than health reasons. it became fashionable along the century in addition to a way of living due the progess achieved by medical research of those early 20s century years.

in all along the beggingin of the 20th century researches experiemnted through trial and error with specific compounds such as insulin etc inorder to eventually someday make it marketable. in 1924 or 25 ely lilly a famous company in usa has produced insulin after long time of research. it helped A LOT of people and in my opinion one of the best hormones of the century with aspects to medical use.
ofcourse it changed the powerlifting and bodybuilding (bodybuilding was a tiny little fun those days) tremendesly!

untill the year of 1925 EVERYTHING in powerlifting and body-building (resistance training) was N A T U R A L,,past 1925 it was going a different direction.

i could talk about grimek specifically but the main substance of this lecture is steve reeves because then,,THE HUMAN BODY and bodybuilding was not marketable. pre steve reeves image there was only the will but there was no substance (as in frame and features) to work with commericaly to a satifying level. grimek was a very good bodybuilder that did experiement with the era rough compounds but his physiqe simply didnt cut it. he was indeed natural 100% in comparrison to todays "naturals" and chemical enhanced athletes.

THE STEVE REEVES BODYBUILDING ERA.

steve is the arnold of usa. he is the all american boy,, the ALL AMERICAN FRAT BOY IMAGE HAS BEEN DEVELOPED WITH STEVE REEVES IN MIND in the eyes of the american girls later on in the 60s and 70s. american pretty boy he was!. "and then came steve reeves.." is not a sentence that was said for nothing,,he was an all american pretty boy. he was tall, had wonderful frame, was nice and charming, he had what ever it takes. he was the HEART of the OCTOPUS body building wanted to become in usa. i repea,,t IN USA. no one cared about the rest of the world in those time. usa was ONLY usa when it comes to marketability of a bodybuilder.

inorder to understand steve reeves influence on the sport of bodybuilding better you need to know the support group and major people of the era that were the BRAIN of the octopus. i will introduce them here to a degree. these individuals contributed more than the athlete itself to the success of bodybuilding and power lifting in the usa and ofcourse around the world later on. they are all good people with good intentions and i respect them all. and here they are: mr. berry, mr johnson, mr blair, mr eugene SCHIFF, mr atlas, mr weider joe, mr hoffman, and ofcourse mr ziegler.

there you have it more or less,,the brain of the octopus. all of these individuals were and wanted make money out of bodybuilding and had to find a star in order to make the baby octopus a big and long armed one. the chosen one was steeve reeves. not to forget!! joe weider came to the scene in 1939-40 and soon later mr reeves popped up..he also only competed between 47 and 50 or 46-50 if my memory serves me correctly and thats because he was by then and only then ready (pay attention to the years).

joe weider is and was BODYBUILDING. he is the SOLE reason modern bodybuilding started and the sole reason bodybuilding will continue. he was the CONNECTION in a big chain of chimical reactions that could never happen unless he was there due to his enormous human skills and his ability to talk you into anything he believed in,,inaddition to his vast knowledge of individuals in diff fields who contributed to the industry some of whom are mentioned in this lecture.

the rest of the above mentioned individual were very important to bodybuilding in their own way and time but! the connection to the HORMONE WORLD was established late in the 30s and early in the 40s by mr weider and the most important person in this lecture beside steve,, and it is MR ZIEGLER.

mr ziegler was the brain and knowledge behind steve reeves enourmous advancment as a bodybuilder. joe weider was the cheerleader and the human skill factor that connected the "willing" people with the "right" people thus i name him "THE GLUE". those 2 brought steve reeves from a pretty boy young man to FAME as a pure usa bodybuilder. from there the way to movies was piece of cake since steve was both pretty boy and gained the muscle needed through training and experiemnting to be uniqe for that time in history.

now,,,after clarifying the brain behind reeves and "THE GLUE" (joe weider) we can take a look at how mr ziengler helped steve reeves.

mr ziegler was a doctor. DOCTOR FOR THE ATHLETES that worked with usa teams. not to forget! in those days a doctor was a king or a god depending on how you see it. he was invloved in rehabilitation therapy and had UNLIMITED acess to anything in the research industry. and oh he acsessed it he surely did with the full support from "THE GLUE".

john was very "connected" to the pharmacutical firm CIBA,,in other words he experiemnted with raw products all through the 40s. very high regarded products that were REAL PHARMA MADE. he had open approach to science and was very good with his research. he experiemnted with version of teststerone on himself ofcourse and then he continued with the general rich patient of his and THE ATHLETES he chose to.

the MAIN CHOSEN ATHLETE for john to work with a young guy by the name of STEVE. the chosen one according to "THE GLUE" had to be a novice,,someone that poses potential and not a joe shmoe,,someone BEAUTIFUL that can push the "health industry" into the eyes of the typical american family of the post WW2.

as i mentioned before CIBA and "THE GLUE" were very much in the chase for introducing american athletes especially body-builders to the testosterone hormone and since 1946 they were pushing it exteremly hard so from 1946 the researches on STEVE were a lot more consistant.

to make a story short,,,10 years later that same mr john ziegler introduced the popular dianabol tablet (derivative of testosterone) into the market produced by CIBA and it was a common house hold product of each and every bodybuilder from grimek in his later years through bill that extended it to the use of nilevar (another very good drug) through a consistant and very organized use of bodybuilders like larry. larry was already using it like candies spread along the day. those were the days animals and humans became alike in many ways atleast drug wise.

getting back to the experiements ziegler conducted with young steve there were other products they tried to see the wat the testosterone will react with them. ziegler tried a fat burner called DNP on steve along with testosterone propionate in its rough older version. insulin another favorite hormone i talked about earlier in this lesson was also experiemented with inorder to see the reaction of the 3 compounds with eachother for muscle building and muscle retaining purposes ONLY. DOCTOR ziegler had an open acess to ANY compound he decided he wanted to research and had a complete back up of CIBA pharmacuticals.

so there we have it: THE BRAIN,,THE GLUE,,AND THE GOLDEN BOY. the creation of modern bodybuilding in its better days when every one was innocent. the researches were very interesting and they also helped the golden boy achieving his dreams. it helped every one in many ways . one became a tycoon of money and the leader i OUTMOST respect,,,yes i respect joe a lot,,,one became the inventor of the best most sold hormone in the sports world and he did regret it at the end of his live BUT he will forever be thankful by us bodybuilders,,and ofcourse it helped us the next generations to realize dreams we never thought were possible,,it helped us achieve wonderful careers and see places we would never see otherwize all through the 60s and 70s.

then came the late 70s early 80s and the ABUSE started. and abuse brought us down to a level that to me is very shocking. a level that got to its lower with the murderer as of recently.


to back up this lecture with literature i am attaching here underneath an article about the researches done with testosterone all along the 20th century. the article is not exactly accurate but i approve it more or less.

i hope you enjoyed it and again this isnot inorder to bring someone down BUT inorder to build someone up!

we,,the industry,, are in trouble,,bodybuilding as you know it will end with ron coleman this is the max a human can develop himself. i do not think bodybuilding will ever stop its existance,,,but the physiqe you see now it at its max development.

end

*copy and save this lesson,, it is a tresure for any new and upcoming bodybuilder wether you are natural or enhanced. i would charge close to $1500 for a one hour lecture such as this."





you are failing in seeing the RISE of steve reeves that is HIGHLY connected with the rise of DOCTOR ziegler. stever reeves competed at his best when ziegler was researching and experiementing at his best. steve reeves was NOTHING before he started experiemnting,,see pictures of him from age 14-16. he was nothing but a skinny boney boy with little muscle mass and lot of potential due to good frame and bone structure (very good ribcage) and ofcourse good face. thats sums up the reason for his choice as a center of a "revolution" later on during the 40s called MODERN BODYBUILDING.




5'11 205 ~ 5'10 198 (~7lb/inch for male) = NOT possible 100% completely natural with no supp while remaining at 8% no clothes on. (in the morning after 8 hour sleep no food in system with one single glass of water drank before weighin,, no clothes/shoes/pump which =3-8lb)

thus you were 5'11 ~198~7% which is parallel and will look very much alike as 5'10~190~8% = POSSIBLE COMPLETELY NATURALLY as i said before if ones have extra ordinary response to training which i assume you have if you were at those numbers at this body fat. 5'11 198lb 7% bf is SUPERB physiqe and only minority of trainees will be able to achieve it naturally.

guys you need to pay attention to the way i write and to the small details i put in. they are exteremly important. when you see the 5'7 guys in the bronx weighin 220 they are not 8% they are sitting at a good 18-20% bodyfat and in most cases been working out in the past with the intake of supplements and in many cases trial periods with hormones.

now as i said ,,again,, to the narcistst kid from mahem that loves reeves. every single word that come out of my mouth is truth. i provided more facts about the time period of the 40s and its hormonal/drug experiemtns in comparisson to what you provided (look in the first thread+official article i provided inorder to find it). i see this as a mute argument to make as i said in past posts of mine ON THIS THREAD. i will do you one last favor and repeat what i said in bold with explentaions:

1. ziegler did not work at ciba during the 40s,,he worked FOR ciba experiementing with athletes and few other individuals who had the means. ALL THROUGH THE 40S. you dont have to be officially employed by a company to work for it and experiemting for it. it is done BEHIND THE SCENES (look at the name of this thread!) in many places with contracting out for research. ziegler was infamous for working with athletes and ESPECIALLY bodybuilders to achieve progress of the human physiqe. you must remember that within 10 years post the 1946 he officially created a drug by the name of DIANABOL. if you take your ass off the computer and research a little you will find out that any drug has been researched for years upon years before it goes out to the market. ziegler was experiemtngin with rough version of testosterone and its derivatives for years before he actually OFFICIALLY brought it out for the every day shmoe to use it and started to market it for the GENERAL PUBLIC. OFFICIALLY IS THE KEY WORD IN THE ABLOVE PARAGRAPH Wink.

2. only the olympic AMERICAN team started using hormones OFFICIALLY IN post 1952. the bodybuilder steve reeves was experiementing with them all through the 40s

3. the bodybuilder steve reeves was experiemnting with insulin and dnp in addition to testosterone in rough version of its development. he not only experiemnted with test but also the other products mentioned which were available past 1930 to any one and every one.

4. the 30s and 40s were for testosterone what the 90s and 2000s are for igf1lr3. (i stopped counting how many guys now days coming to me for advice tellin me they are natural and only using igf1lr3 Roll Eyes) only diff is testosterone works a hell of a lot better! it is natural to the body and can maintain its potency through synthetic formulations. it is the most natural compound to the body you will ever find,,,indeed la cour is right in many ways saying to the world he is "natural" Wink during the 30s and 40s ziegler who was a doctor, and an athlete himself that loved bodybuilding, had to chose someone to experiement on in his clinic beside himself. someone marketable that trains hard and is a bodybuilder in all essense of the word (not to forget! the drug dianabol/testosterone was supposed to be mainly an athlete boost,, an "extra something" made mainly for athletes,, so what could be better than chosing an athlete,, and what an athlete could be better than an athlete with the love and marketable look for bodybuilding). reeves was the chosen one.
and to the ones who say "the glue" (not under no IFBB but under himself as a bodybuilding entrepenour "wanna be" and oh he sure became one Wink) had nothing to do with the pick up of reeves,,you dont know what youre talking bout willys Wink




steve reeves never had kids
steve reeves was absorbed with himself
steve reeves was a womanizer ,,which i support in a way,,
steve reeves was experiementing with hormones
steve reeves was a loner,,no one knew his personality well because he was a loner that liked animals more than people
steve reeves walked day and night thinking how he can make himself bigger (yes 220 6% in 1940 was very big and still is to this day even at 6'1)













I HOPE THIS DOESN'T RUIN YOUR IDOLIZATION OF STEEVE REEVES.


By the way..I just posted about 5000 $ worth of info...;)

[magicmerlin]

Sebastian, this forum should be about respect and peace, so I don't want us to become aggressive towards each other....so please take this as debate because I've bitten my tongue a little reading your response.....also I'm sorry to other posters, if this theme has taken over the original topic.


to the narcistst kid from mahem that loves reeves

I'm guessing that's a reference to me - looks like I will have to take down the posters on my wall then (sense the sarcasm).

Listen, I admit my ignorance to the Reeves posting, and I guess I fell for the beginning of the Weider ballshit having read about the wholesome all-natural 'Steve Reeves'. However, I'm only too aware that they pump out literature selling ignorant people supplements, while filling their pages with 'super healthy steroid taking bodybuilders'. I'd also say that with really decent genetics his physique is realistic with a decade of natural training - and you will admit that in those days they did not sport ridiculously low body fat like those in today's freak shows.

I actually find you post rather patronizing, because you know nothing about me and my own knowledge. I get the impression you think I am some skinny kid with grandeurs of becoming a huge great bodybuilder with natural training.....and you're trying to save me years of agony before I realise the truth and turn to steroid to fulfill my 'narcisistic desires'. In which case you're wrong. I've trained for 8 years (minus 18 month with a double leg break) and I've never touched hormones/steroids, and I've never had a desire to be a 'bodybuilder' - I 'train', and for me there is a big difference between 'training' and the specific pursuit of 'bodybuilding'. I'm 5 10" and 195lbs (after waking and the cup of water) and 10% body fat, and I'm still making progress without adding body fat. I'm not obsessed with my body or training, but it is a part of my life and I like to have self-respect for myself, unlike 90% of people out there (of course there are other ways to look after yourself, but this is my way). I only train 2-3 times max per week, for 45 minutes....the natural way. If I was a narcistst kid, then I think I would have abused steroids and turned my body into a huge ugly specimen by now!

I know that getting very ripped and vascular and holding every ounce of muscle is very hard naturally, but that isn't my goal anyway (aside from the fact that most women puke at the sight of that). I often get people asking me whether I'm a boxer rather than a bodybuilder.

[supertzar]

Sebastian, are you writing off Sandow, et al? They didn't have big chests, but the bench press hadn't been invented yet, as far as I know. These guys were built and ripped. You know what they ate to get that way, right?

SANDOW'S MEASUREMENTS
At age 35 (1902)

height: 5'9 1/4"
weight: 202 lbs.
neck: 18"
chest: 48"
biceps: 18 1/2"
forearm: 16 1/2"
wrist: 7 1/2"
waist: 30"
hips: 42"
thigh: 26"
knee: 14"
calf: 18"
ankle: 8 1/2"

Not possible? LOL!!!

[octopusrex]

I eat meat.

Anybody who opposes the vegetarian diet is a fool.

I am a fool.

[element]

I eat meat.

Anybody who opposes the vegetarian diet is a fool.

I am a fool.

You do have truth within you, I can tell.

[pitta]

I think that not eating grains or potatoes causes more arguments from people than not eating meat or animal products. Many restaurants serve vegeterian dishes and there are lots of food products for vegetarians/vegans like soy milks and stuff like that.
But very few restaurants serve low carb dishes. On a lc diet you always have to ask to substitute starches with nonstarchy veggies. I have been low carbing from time to time and I think its a lot healthier than a vegetarian or vegan diet. Even though it contains lots of saturated fat and cholesterol ( the are actually good for you )
Besides grains are a staple in almost all cultures of the world so , anywhere you go people will find lc dieting weird.

[element]

Many people search for truth....for enlightment.....unconditional love...
stuff like this....I do not understand why they don't care much about animals.. it is part of life and has feelings. They kill eachother, but nature is in balance, with predators, prey and vegetation. If you take out one, the circle of life will be fucked.

I am absolutely fine with humans thousands of years ago that hunted animals for fur and meat cause of little food to find and fur for warmth in cold climates. But in these times....this is all not needed anymore. Not for your body, not for the environment, and not for the animals.

Peace.

[sebastian]

Sebastian, are you writing off Sandow, et al? They didn't have big chests, but the bench press hadn't been invented yet, as far as I know. These guys were built and ripped. You know what they ate to get that way, right?



Not possible? LOL!!!sandow was truly natural...however, that's when it stops...hormones in raw forms and various enhancing agents start at the beggining of the century. bodybuilding equals hormones and hormones equal bodybuilding. Not to undermine hard work and dieting right but without hormones there would be no bb.

[sebastian]

sandow was truly natural...however, that's when it stops...hormones in raw forms and various enhancing agents start at the beggining of the century. bodybuilding equals hormones and hormones equal bodybuilding. Not to undermine hard work and dieting right but without hormones there would be no bb.
And another thing...when it comes to body building, I did my homework through and through...I know what it takes and how to do it. I am not bb anymore .

[spiritslasher]

yeah, i've been cutting back on the drink as well with the aim of cutting it out altogether.

on a side note, you should drink one or two glasses of red wine a day so I wouldn't recommend cutting it.

Love to all :)

[pilgrim]

Many people search for truth....for enlightment.....unconditional love...
stuff like this....I do not understand why they don't care much about animals.. it is part of life and has feelings. They kill eachother, but nature is in balance, with predators, prey and vegetation. If you take out one, the circle of life will be fucked.

I am absolutely fine with humans thousands of years ago that hunted animals for fur and meat cause of little food to find and fur for warmth in cold climates. But in these times....this is all not needed anymore. Not for your body, not for the environment, and not for the animals.

Peace.

Thanks element, :) True words.

[mauviene]

I tried veganism, but I found myself eating way to much to try and keep up with my fast metabolism, so I decided I needed something with more substance, and I went vegetarian. Now as a vegetarian, I feel a lot healthier, more energetic, and I have two more sources of protein (cheese and eggs) gained some weight back, and am in better physical condition than when I was a vegan. I think that it is suited more as a diet for weight loss, I mean you shed pounds while being a vegan, and its rather hard to gain weight or build muscle. So I concluded that while on the vegan diet your body consumes almost all the material you eat, leaving no excess substance of protein or fat to sustain mass unless you eat all the time, which obviously gets redundantly annoying. So from experience, I wouldn't recommend it unless you want to loose weight, want to look like a starving Ethiopian, or your seriously into synthetic muscle building supplements and weight lifting.

[supertzar]

Sebastian, if someone naturally developed their self to the level of Eugen Sandow today, would you not consider that person a bodybuilder? I am trying to understand what you mean by "that's where it ends." I think you are saying that a natural BB can not be competitive today. It would still be impressive to have that physique, though, would it not?

[sebastian]

Sebastian, if someone naturally developed their self to the level of Eugen Sandow today, would you not consider that person a bodybuilder? I am trying to understand what you mean by "that's where it ends." I think you are saying that a natural BB can not be competitive today. It would still be impressive to have that physique, though, would it not?
Most definetly. However : Sandow was way out of the ordinary league; take my word for it.

[supertzar]

Of course he was extraordinary. I just think your position doesn't hold water. If Sandow could do it then, other people can do it now.

[supertzar]

I looked at your site and my impression is that you are targeting people who have never really lifted before. They stumble onto your site, do your program, experience newbie gains and think it is because of the great program. It looks like a bit of a con, in my opinion. A hundred bucks for what? Some magic information that I can't find in Power: A Scientific Approach or any number of other books? Or free on the web, for that matter. Is that NLP you are using on the site? It's cheesy and not respectable at all, sorry. The kind of thing strength and bodybuilding people laugh at. $1,000s of dollars of information for the low, low price of $99.99!

I'm sure you are a cool guy and I hope you stick around here. Just busting your chops a little. It's like "Trust me. I'm an actor. And a former bodybuilder." I realize you are hustling to further your career and I give you props for that. When you try to come off all authoritative, I can see right through it, though.

[sebastian]

I looked at your site and my impression is that you are targeting people who have never really lifted before. They stumble onto your site, do your program, experience newbie gains and think it is because of the great program. It looks like a bit of a con, in my opinion. A hundred bucks for what? Some magic information that I can't find in Power: A Scientific Approach or any number of other books? Or free on the web, for that matter. Is that NLP you are using on the site? It's cheesy and not respectable at all, sorry. The kind of thing strength and bodybuilding people laugh at. $1,000s of dollars of information for the low, low price of $99.99!

I'm sure you are a cool guy and I hope you stick around here. Just busting your chops a little. It's like "Trust me. I'm an actor. And a former bodybuilder." I realize you are hustling to further your career and I give you props for that. When you try to come off all authoritative, I can see right through it, though.

Busting my chops ?? :rolleyes:


Ok greenhorn : here u have it !

First off, I don't have a clue who's site u just saw but I do not have a website nor do I sell lifting programs. I am a former bodybuilder and I GAVE U MY FREE THOUGHTS ON THE MATTER. You don't even begin to have a clue when it comes to bodybuilding or anything bodybuilding related. Trust me on that one.

I honestly do not care about your oppinion on natural bodybuilding as I see you absolutely insignificant when it comes to lifting weights or related stuff. So ...see you brother.

[sebastian]

Of course he was extraordinary. I just think your position doesn't hold water. If Sandow could do it then, other people can do it now.

You are selling cucumbers to the gardener sonny. Just leave it.

[supertzar]

Busting my chops ?? :rolleyes:


Ok greenhorn : here u have it !

First off, I don't have a clue who's site u just saw but I do not have a website nor do I sell lifting programs. I am a former bodybuilder and I GAVE U MY FREE THOUGHTS ON THE MATTER. You don't even begin to have a clue when it comes to bodybuilding or anything bodybuilding related. Trust me on that one.

I honestly do not care about your oppinion on natural bodybuilding as I see you absolutely insignificant when it comes to lifting weights or related stuff. So ...see you brother.

I am glad that is not your site. My apologies for thinking it was. The problem remains that you are talking a bunch of bull and I proved it, so I don't see how you think you are beyond question. You are saying it's impossible to have measurements like Sandow's without steroids and that is obviously bullcrap.

[sebastian]

I am glad that is not your site. My apologies for thinking it was. The problem remains that you are talking a bunch of bull and I proved it, so I don't see how you think you are beyond question. You are saying it's impossible to have measurements like Sandow's without steroids and that is obviously bullcrap.

I am beyond question AS FAR AS U ARE CONCERNED MY FRIEND ;) .

Please list your acomplishments in bodybuilding and/or powerlifting
and submit a picture ( that should be enough ) . After u do that , I'll give you my 100 % foul proof oppinnion on yourself. You do not hold water because you don't know what you are talking about but u act like u do. You are the type who argues with friends who can win in a fight : Batman or Spiderman .

[sebastian]

I am glad that is not your site. My apologies for thinking it was. The problem remains that you are talking a bunch of bull and I proved it, so I don't see how you think you are beyond question. You are saying it's impossible to have measurements like Sandow's without steroids and that is obviously bullcrap.You didn't prove jack either. You cannot do that because for you, nutrition, lifting and pharma are domains equivalent with quantum mechanics , meaning you are talking to a professional from a beginner's perspective.

[sebastian]

And another thing : for retarded argumentations like u posted above there are bodybuilding sites....I invite u tojoin the biggest in the world : http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php ..there are tons of bb, including professionals, gurus, amateurs and such ....Be prepared to recieve a new asshole upon disertations such as above:p

[i_am]

Could we please get this thread back on topic, which is , I believe vegetarianism.

[sebastian]

Could we please get this thread back on topic, which is , I believe vegetarianism.

Yes siree bob ... my last 17 years of studying nutrition and subsequent experimenting on me and others, clearly indicates that there are a lot of things clogging our daily diet that we most definetely can do without.

[madthumbs]

Yes siree bob ... my last 17 years of studying nutrition and subsequent experimenting on me and others, clearly indicates that there are a lot of things clogging our daily diet that we most definetely can do without.

A lot of them being vegetarian / vegan staples like soy, rice, and grains (gluten).

[pilgrim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emXRuu32JEE

[element]

Good vid.

Makes you wonder, cows give us life (milk) and we give them as a thank you, death. Such abuse! Retarted humans.
Let's just kill our dogs and cats because they are friendly to us and want hugs...

I have yet to see a meat-eter giving a good argument why we should kill animals for meat..

[pilgrim]

Good vid.

Makes you wonder, cows give us life (milk) and we give them as a thank you, death. Such abuse! Retarted humans.
Let's just kill our dogs and cats because they are friendly to us and want hugs...

I have yet to see a meat-eter giving a good argument why we should kill animals for meat..

Their ONLY argument is: "I like the taste"!
Which is no defence for murder and corpse-eating!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYZGxtQp3hY

[sebastian]

A lot of them being vegetarian / vegan staples like soy, rice, and grains (gluten).

yes sir ! you said it !

[supertzar]

I've already said everything I needed to say about Sebastian's comments on natural bodybuilding. The point is if you are not on steroids you can get big and strong eating a diet including meat. It is much harder to do so without meat.

[red_ram]

Their ONLY argument is: "I like the taste"!
Which is no defence for murder and corpse-eating!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYZGxtQp3hY

Well, at least I don't pretend I have any other argument.

Unlike a lot of omnivores, I do believe that you CAN have a balanced diet as a vegetarian.

I bet you'll love me for the fact I wear leather (and LIKE IT) too. ;)

[red_ram]

Good vid.

Makes you wonder, cows give us life (milk) and we give them as a thank you, death. Such abuse! Retarted humans.
Let's just kill our dogs and cats because they are friendly to us and want hugs...

I have yet to see a meat-eter giving a good argument why we should kill animals for meat..

What about the tribes where they rely on the meat from their animals because of the sparse plant life?

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just remember reading about certain tribes who rely on the nutrition from their meat, such as those in Siberia, and thought it'd be constructive to bring them into this debate.

[supertzar]

People actually think they are more spiritual than traditional Native American hunters because they don't eat meat. I am pretty sure that, for the native peoples, hunting and eating animals was and is a profound spiritual experience.

[red_ram]

People actually think they are more spiritual than traditional Native American hunters because they don't eat meat. I am pretty sure that, for the native peoples, hunting and eating animals was and is a profound spiritual experience.

Indeed, as long as it's within the balance of nature.

[sebastian]

I've already said everything I needed to say about Sebastian's comments on natural bodybuilding. The point is if you are not on steroids you can get big and strong eating a diet including meat. It is much harder to do so without meat.

Stop talking out of your ass. You don't have a clue about building muscle nor what it takes. Let's discuss vegetarianism because for bodybuilding there aRE special forums where newbies can discuss subjects such as.

[supertzar]

I've been lifting for five years, dick. I've gone from 135 lbs to 190 lbs as of this morning. I have read a ton of good information on strength training. I am not the one talking out of my ass. You are. You got big and ripped on steroids. Big fucking deal. Now you look like a twig and you have that strained look in your face like most people who don't eat meat. Now fuck off.

[element]

People actually think they are more spiritual than traditional Native American hunters because they don't eat meat. I am pretty sure that, for the native peoples, hunting and eating animals was and is a profound spiritual experience.

Seriously, what the parrot?

Why eat / harm animals when there is no need to?

In cold climates I can understand because of low vegetation, but do we live in such conditions? Why would you go through all the difficulty living in such a climate? If I lived there, I'd go southwards.

And natives atleast kept things in balance, or that's what you think about it. When the whites came, the bison population went near extinct.

And please. What's eating meat have to do with spirituality?

[northern_light]

What about the tribes where they rely on the meat from their animals because of the sparse plant life?

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just remember reading about certain tribes who rely on the nutrition from their meat, such as those in Siberia, and thought it'd be constructive to bring them into this debate.

And what about the tribes where they rely on the meat from their neighbours because of the sparse animal life?
If people live in a rough enviroment that is short on food, they will eat what they can find, including humans to survive. Just because some indiginous people kill animals doesn't make it THE way. "But the Eskimos eat animals, therefore it's 'natural' ":rolleyes: I thought the Mayans were some pretty awesome folks, but you don't see me running around ripping people's hearts out...

[element]

And what about the tribes where they rely on the meat from their neighbours because of the sparse animal life?
If people live in a rough enviroment that is short on food, they will eat what they can find, including humans to survive. Just because some indiginous people kill animals doesn't make it THE way. "But the Eskimos eat animals, therefore it's 'natural' ":rolleyes: I thought the Mayans were some pretty awesome folks, but you don't see me running around ripping people's hearts out...

Indeed.

When some group is far away from society and believes in some gods/spirit it doesn't make them all complete enlightened spiritual people, lol.

All the native people have some good points, but they had primitive parts too.

[supertzar]

Seriously, what the parrot?

Why eat / harm animals when there is no need to?

In cold climates I can understand because of low vegetation, but do we live in such conditions? Why would you go through all the difficulty living in such a climate? If I lived there, I'd go southwards.

And natives atleast kept things in balance, or that's what you think about it. When the whites came, the bison population went near extinct.

And please. What's eating meat have to do with spirituality?

Thank you for helping me find this. Very cool.

The Dakota, or Sioux as the are commonly called, inhabited the great plains and prairies surrounding the modern states of North and South Dakota, as well as Minnesota. This was their home until white mining interests forced them out of their homeland during the mid-1800's. The Dakotas were less organized and more spread out than their cousins in the east, the Iroquois. Their society was based almost entirely on the hunting of buffalo, which provided them with virtually all of their survival needs. Their territory consisted of seasonal hunting grounds that forced the tribal units to live a nomadic lifestyle on the plains. There was no need for permanent settlements due to the fact buffalo herds would rarely stay in one place for a long period of time. The Dakota's existence centered around the movements of the herds.

According to Raymond J. DeMallie, the Dakota world was "characterized by its oneness, its unity." (1987,27). There was no separation of the natural world from the world of the supernatural. This unity in nature was thought to be beyond the comprehension of mankind and could only be shared in through the practice of rituals. The "animating force" that acted as the common denominator of the universe was known as "Wakan Tanka." (1987). "Wakan Tanka was an amorphous category most precisely defined by incomprehensibility." (Densmore 1918,85). The physical world was composed of the manifestations of this animating force. In essence, they believed that every object was spirit, or "wakan." For this reason, the Dakota held a docetic view of the universe in which nothing was real. Everything in the material world had only the appearance of being real. Like the inferior spirits in the Iroquois belief system, Wakan Tanka employed the use of "Wakan people" (DeMallie 1987) to interact with the material world and control the lives of men. These characters were often the objects of worship and praise.

According to DeMallie, Wakan Tanka was explained in relation to the Dakota by "wicasa wakan", or holy men. (DeMallie 1987). These men attempted to create some type of order and understanding of this "Great Incomprehensibility." (DeMallie 1987). The did not concentrate of strict religious doctrine or structure due to the ambiguous nature of Wakan Tanka. Instead, they served as guides to assist Dakota people in coming to their own personal understanding of their place in the universe. It was believed that mankind is required to serve the Waken people who administered and controlled the forces that surrounded them. White Buffalo Woman was one of the most important Wakan people to the Dakota. Their myth states that she gave the Dakota people the "Calf Pipe" (DeMallie 1987) through which they could communicate with the invisible spirit world.

It is impossible to separate the Dakota people from the buffalo. A bond existed between the two that was steeped in religious tradition and survival. For this reason, the buffalo played an equally significant role in the Dakota's religious belief system. A co-existence was achieved between these two life forms within an interconnected universe governed by the collective forces of Wakan Tanka. Most of the Dakota's rituals were centered around this relationship. According to DeMallie, Dakota rituals were based on mystical experiences instead of systematic worship. The most important aspect of ritual was the individual personal experience. The experience was usually related in the form of an interpretive dance inspired by a personal vision (DeMallie 1987). The Dakota were encouraged to contribute to the understanding of Wakan Tanka through their own individual relationship with the spirit world.

[element]

Was that a respond to my ''meat and spirituality'' comment?

Cause it still does not explain it. Spirituality is searching for your own true being. Vegetarianism is a good tool to increase your consciousness, I have experienced that myself.

Native people, I respect them for the fact they kept nature in a nice balance, opposite of white people and all the hunting and animal factories which they began with.

There is no need to kill or harm animals. Vegetables, fruits, grains, rice, you name it. Plants are living too yes, but you take the fruit and don't destroy the plants core. You might even spread the seeds, many animals do this without knowing they do! But when you kill an animal, it's dead. d-e-a-d

[supertzar]

I guess you don't understand. They are communing with the Great Spirit, Wakan Tanka, when they are hunting and, presumably, consuming the buffalo. It's intrinsic to their spirituality.

[red_ram]

There is no need to kill or harm animals. Vegetables, fruits, grains, rice, you name it. Plants are living too yes, but you take the fruit and don't destroy the plants core. You might even spread the seeds, many animals do this without knowing they do! But when you kill an animal, it's dead. d-e-a-d

I concede this is a fair counterpoint to my argument.

And all without suggesting I might be 'dumb'. ;)

[megafish33]

I guess you don't understand. They are communing with the Great Spirit, Wakan Tanka, when they are hunting and, presumably, consuming the buffalo. It's intrinsic to their spirituality.

Yeah, almost every traditional culture and tribal group ate some sort of animal food with thankfulness.

Some articles for the eating of meat....

Myths and Truths about vegetarianism (http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtvegetarianism.html)

"Why I'm not a vegi" (http://www.acsh.org/healthissues/newsID.760/healthissue_detail.asp)

The ethics of eating meat (http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/ethicsmeat.html)

The Blood Moon (http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/bloodmoon.html)

[gracimusic]

From the energetic point of view, we shouldn't eat at all! because we don't need to eat, the nutrients come through our pores... but we FORGOT that. In the Infinite we don't need to eat. Killing is not good... when you kill you do it against the animal/vegetable will, you cause him pain, you kill him. This releases an energy which you're gonna eat. You eat their suffering. We shouldn't eat at all, not even vegetables. And not even mention the use of fire (cooking, burning), which is even worse. This is ideally.

However, if we are in this world, in this realm of the five senses, we've been created to eat, trying to avoid the abominations that happen with the gm foods and the hormones, and the massive killing of animals in the big farms.

I grew up in the countryside and we had our few cows and chickens, we used to kill one or two pigs every year, but we fed them ourselves, with our own grown vegetables, so their meat shouldn't be bad... I guess we must try to find the balance of what we eat, using as many natural means as possible, without forgetting we are in this world and it's not gonna be totally possible to disconnect in such a way. If someone another solution NOW, please, let me know.

[element]

Yeah, almost every traditional culture and tribal group ate some sort of animal food with thankfulness.



Does that mean it's good?

Seriously, people see the word ''native'' or ''tribe'' and they think it's like some sort of heaven, while those tribes had wars to and all of that. And that they have some god - figure does not mean that they are spiritual.

[megafish33]

Does that mean it's good?

Seriously, people see the word ''native'' or ''tribe'' and they think it's like some sort of heaven, while those tribes had wars to and all of that. And that they have some god - figure does not mean that they are spiritual.

Did NOT even say that... :rolleyes:

Isn't spirituality pretty subjective anyway?

To me certain everyday stuff is spiritual... Like sexuality, relationships, family units, fraternity, sorority, charity, even cooking good food. Changing a plant or muscle tissues chemistry with fire or fermentation isn't always "bad." They all involve "spirit" to me. Those things evolved over time with us and are part of the fabric of our lives, more or less. Without them, we loose our life-we get sick. We get sick without eating(and some get sick w/o eating meat), we get sick if our relationships suffer, we can go crazy without satisfying our sexual urges. To me that's every bit as spiritual as the breath of air I need to take in to sustain life. Who are you to say what is spiritual or not for me? Let alone to an entire group peoples that have been living a certain way for thousands of years? ...and I'm sorry I'm not trying to be offensive... But killing and animal sacrifice are also subjective. Objectively the action is the same-slaughter of the animal or harvesting of the grain-but certain groups of people don't see one slaughter as a coldblooded murder-some see it as a sacrifice-with some serious spiritual functions. Native tribes that ate in a traditional way(eating meat with animal fat included) thought those things were spiritual. Some people see the value in the way traditional cultures lived(which includes their foods)-it's not because they view it as a "heaven" though. There is no reason why people can't have both-their connection to the land, food, animal husbandry, traditional preventive medicines/lifestyle etc. with their modern lack of belief in superstition, use of modern medicine for emergency situations, etc. That's not to say that all things traditional, or, a tradition-is good or bad. But you can't claim that those traditions-like the eating of animals-weren't interwoven with the spirituality of those peoples-to them at that time-and to others in modern times.

We'll eventually have to stop eating meat anyway. ;)

[Ratiocinator]

People are still insisting on arguing against the natural diet?! Oh, come on! Wake up!

Watch this documentary Eating: 2nd Edition, and get a grip on reality!

http://thepiratebay.org/tor/3979644/Eating_-_2nd_Edition_why_we_eat_like_robot_and_die_like_ro bot

[enga]

I miss Ratiocinator. I wonder if David Icke is vegetarian...does anyone know?

[gaias child]

I miss Ratiocinator. I wonder if David Icke is vegetarian...does anyone know?


Well he did a talk on animal rights once and was said to be vegetarian, I don't know if he still is

I've been mostly vegan all my life and my dad was too

[cleft_asunder]

This is my first post so...Hi everyone.

I've just recently become a vegan for both health reasons and ethical ones. Since the change I have encountered nothing but opposition to my chosen lifestyle, with everyone telling me what a bad idea it is and how unhealthy i'm likely to become. Why is it that people(most of whom i might add take no particular interest in their own health) suddenly become nutrition experts the minute the subject of not eating meat comes up! Also, I think it's rather patronizing that they just assume you don't read or study before you make these sort of decisions. Just wondered if anyone has encountered this type of thing.

Well aren't you the nutrition expert all of a sudden? Studying diet is nothing. Expirimenting with diet with an open mind is everything. Open mind means you're willing to quit. Most vegetarians adopt that diet as a religion, wanting to believe it's healthier so that they can feel superior. Regardless, I side with the people who oppose this diet. It has lead to nothing but malnutrition for me. A normal natural balanced diet is where it's at.

[cleft_asunder]

I've been vegetarian for four years and some people definitely think it's a bit weird and unhealthy. It's just the herd mentality, people are raised from birth to regard eating meat as "the way it is" and don't even think about why they do it, or the ethical or health implications.

What a silly post! The heard mentallity? Vegans go out of their way to find like-minded people. Now what does that remind us of, religion perhaps? Political views? These like-minded people called vegans are the very diffenition of a herd movement. You don't see normal people with normal diets boasting about their diet choices or choosing their friends based on their dietary choices. That's insanity! For them, diet isn't something of tremendous importance.

[hawk]

People eat meat becuz they want to. Simple as that. Now excuse me, I have a chicken clucking my name to be put into the oven! I make no excuses for my eating meat. I eat it becuz I need someform of protein and it tastes good.
So to all vegetarians and vegans out there, eat what you want,and leave the rest alone!

[unusual_suspect]

I miss Ratiocinator. I wonder if David Icke is vegetarian...does anyone know?

What happened to rationator? I miss his scathingness :p

What about the other end of the scale Vegitarians who start eating meat and get a hard time from other people?

[cleft_asunder]

What happened to rationator? I miss his scathingness :p

What about the other end of the scale Vegitarians who start eating meat and get a hard time from other people?

Ratiocinator had psychological problems, imo because of his diet. The bowls and psychological health are related. The guy told us he JUICED garlic. That's right, juiced it. Garlic is known to cause irratability, anger and rage, which he had.

[ozpixie]

We should all be free to eat what makes us feel good and healthy. Personally I start to feel really daggy after a couple of weeks without meat. I've tried it a few times and no matter how many other secondary proteins like legumes etc I have, the result is the same. A few eggs and cheeses along the way didn't seem to make any difference. My first husband on the other hand was a strict veggie all his life and it worked for him.

[cleft_asunder]

We should all be free to eat what makes us feel good and healthy. Personally I start to feel really daggy after a couple of weeks without meat. I've tried it a few times and no matter how many other secondary proteins like legumes etc I have, the result is the same. A few eggs and cheeses along the way didn't seem to make any difference. My first husband on the other hand was a strict veggie all his life and it worked for him.

I don't have a problem with people being vegan. They can do what they want like you say. What annoys me though is that they declare they are vegan, just as gays and lesbians declare they are gays and lesbians So it's about pride, and pride comes from the ego. What are they proud of? They want recognition for their superior choice. "Look at me; look how smart I am. I did research and concluded that the vegetarian diet is healthier, and have adopted this diet." But you don't see the average person declaring their dietary choice. It's so absurd to do so because it's an ego trip. Unless someone asks, you don't tell.

You don't find this militaristic mentallity in regards to diet in Europe. I visited Romania for 3 weeks a little while ago. Had I still been vegan during that time, I would have had to spend 3 weeks explaining myself. Because it is absurd to them, and righfully so. These people eat lots of pork and other meats, lots of saturated fat primarily. Then comes soups, vegetables, grains and such. Too much white sugar though. But they don't look diseased when they are 80 or 90 unlike in the united states. They still walk around and smile. But my point is that from the cultures I've experienced and the diets I've tried, I can say one thing: A person who says veganism is the ideal diet proves his ignorance, because you cannot know that, nor can other vegans.

[ant777uk]

If you eat other animals then I do not think you should complain if a shark or a reptilian eats you.

I find loads of fruit/veg (ideally as raw as possible), sprouted stuff, homegrown wheatgrass, spirulina (for iron, B12 and protein), minimal dairy, raw almonds/nuts, the odd apricot kernel, hemp oil and natural spring/orgonite energized water works best.

Soy, canola/rapeseed, corn tend to be GM so best avoided. Also herbal teas and dried spices tend to be irradiated so best avoided also.

[lady_oblivion]

i'm not a veggie but i dont eat a lot of meet and when i do its mainly chiken or fish(all oragnic none of this crap which you get from supermarkets). I love veggtarian cusine and its not unhelthy at all.

[unusual_suspect]

Ratiocinator had psychological problems, imo because of his diet. The bowls and psychological health are related. The guy told us he JUICED garlic. That's right, juiced it. Garlic is known to cause irratability, anger and rage, which he had.

Hmm Juicing garlic is a total wrong-un, he made me laugh!

This thread is ironic to me at the moment, because I am in the opposite situation. I have started eating meat, now I am running and doing weights again I am craving protien - not just that, but I can't get enough dark green veg either. In truth I have been feeling this since I was in hospital. When I have cravings for something that isn't icecream, chocolate or cake I generally go with it as I just discovered the idea of intuitive eating and this makes sense.

Tracker mentions blood type on another thread regarding meat vs veggie diets and I am an O blood type and I do seem to do better on protien rich diets, especially when active.

I feel much stronger for including meat in my dfiet, I am starting to feel like my old self again, the raw veggie almost vegan diet wasn't for me, and much as I would love to eat that way, I am not sure that it does actually make you a better person, I am a better person when I am feeling strong and I have lots of energy.

I only feel bad in as much as the fact that my SO does not eat meat and although he is too nice to say so, I know he doesn't approve, but I did give up smoking so it's swings and roundabouts. Also, his mum is coming to stay next week and she definitely won't approve, she is a strict veggie for "spiritual reasons", his sister and mates are all veggies, so I'll keep my new canivorism to myself round those lot me thinks.

[cleft_asunder]

I only feel bad in as much as the fact that my SO does not eat meat and although he is too nice to say so, I know he doesn't approve, but I did give up smoking so it's swings and roundabouts. Also, his mum is coming to stay next week and she definitely won't approve, she is a strict veggie for "spiritual reasons", his sister and mates are all veggies, so I'll keep my new canivorism to myself round those lot me thinks.

Don't even bother explaining yourself if they ask. It's none of their business. Feeling that you should conform to their ideal is a sign of weakness.

[unusual_suspect]

Don't even bother explaining yourself if they ask. It's none of their business. Feeling that you should conform to their ideal is a sign of weakness.

I don't care that much, I just can't be bothered to argue the toss.

[enga]

ICED garlic. That's right, juiced it. Garlic is known to cause irratability, anger and rage, which he had.
Hmm Juicing garlic is a total wrong-un, he made me laugh!

My Grandfather eats raw crushed garlic (loads of cloves) on sandwiches every night. He's the most placid and calm person you could ever meet and it keeps his heart working well.

[jojo]

Ratiocinator had psychological problems, imo because of his diet. The bowls and psychological health are related. The guy told us he JUICED garlic. That's right, juiced it. Garlic is known to cause irratability, anger and rage, which he had.

im glad hes gone really.

he did nothing for the advertisment of the vegan life style. such anger, hatered and superiority over others.

its a shame really because the bloke had a lot of good info and he made valid points (when they were not dressed up in venom)

[unusual_suspect]

im glad hes gone really.

he did nothing for the advertisment of the vegan life style. such anger, hatered and superiority over others.

its a shame really because the bloke had a lot of good info and he made valid points (when they were not dressed up in venom)

Yeah, he sent me some really interesting links, however, being that self righteous is not a good advertisement for Veganism or raw foodery.

I always thought he was a she (with really PMS) to be honest. Weird huh.

[jojo]

Hmm Juicing garlic is a total wrong-un, he made me laugh!

This thread is ironic to me at the moment, because I am in the opposite situation. I have started eating meat, now I am running and doing weights again I am craving protien - not just that, but I can't get enough dark green veg either. In truth I have been feeling this since I was in hospital. When I have cravings for something that isn't icecream, chocolate or cake I generally go with it as I just discovered the idea of intuitive eating and this makes sense.

Tracker mentions blood type on another thread regarding meat vs veggie diets and I am an O blood type and I do seem to do better on protien rich diets, especially when active.

I feel much stronger for including meat in my dfiet, I am starting to feel like my old self again, the raw veggie almost vegan diet wasn't for me, and much as I would love to eat that way, I am not sure that it does actually make you a better person, I am a better person when I am feeling strong and I have lots of energy.

I only feel bad in as much as the fact that my SO does not eat meat and although he is too nice to say so, I know he doesn't approve, but I did give up smoking so it's swings and roundabouts. Also, his mum is coming to stay next week and she definitely won't approve, she is a strict veggie for "spiritual reasons", his sister and mates are all veggies, so I'll keep my new canivorism to myself round those lot me thinks.

im an O blood type too. although im a veggy. i do crave protien sometimes.

i chose to stop eating meat when I started horse whispering and energy healing horses. they can smell the fact that you are a preditor, and as they are pray animals, there is always that barrier between you.

for my line of work, not eating meat gives me the edge, the horses seem to trust me more. i know it sounds daft, but its true.

[amethyst2009]

I have been veggie for 30 years, and vegan for 10 of those years. In the past I have had ridiculous comments aimed at me, over and over again, by certain people who seem to not be able to handle the fact that I choose not to eat animals.

I will only discuss it when asked, I would never bring it into a conversation unless forced to, as the attitudes I have met with make me want to keep it to myself.

[unusual_suspect]

I have been veggie for 30 years, and vegan for 10 of those years. In the past I have had ridiculous comments aimed at me, over and over again, by certain people who seem to not be able to handle the fact that I choose not to eat animals.

I will only discuss it when asked, I would never bring it into a conversation unless forced to, as the attitudes I have met with make me want to keep it to myself.

That's a real shame, why are people so het up with what other people choose to eat, it makes no sense. Tell em to mind their own ;)

[amethyst2009]

It's just all very tedious, " oh you still eat veggies, carrots scream too" and "well I bet you s**k your hubbys c**k, that's meat" those kind of comments, I have heard a hundred times!

I find it easier not to mention it in the first place unless I have to ;)

[unusual_suspect]

It's just all very tedious, " oh you still eat veggies, carrots scream too" and "well I bet you s**k your hubbys c**k, that's meat" those kind of comments, I have heard a hundred times!

I find it easier not to mention it in the first place unless I have to ;)

What jesters eh? I am quite happy to not enforce my views on others, and in return tehy can do the same for me, it's a matter of respect.

How would they like it if you started banging on about how meat is murder, it cuts both ways :rolleyes:

[amethyst2009]

Exactly, I have never preached to anyone about eating meat, it is all about choice,yet it seems that veggies are 'easy pickings' for those who think they are a stand up comedian .

[horseface]

I've been vegan a couple of years, but I have it fairly easy living in LA. I get little opposition really, especially when people can see how much healthier I am as a result. I've lost my lardy arse, I've hardly been ill in the last two years, even with all the filth floating around in the air. I've got a lot more energy and I'm certainly less depressed.

I think veganism is going from strength to strength. It will soon be the norm. There are new vegan restaurants opening here every other week now. It's crazy.

[godgoo]

I do believe that we adapted to meat later as we were introduced to meat and alcohol later when our buddies reptiles tinkered with us. Anyone who does their research will know the exact reason why meat is in our daily diets. The biggest factor if/when meat becomes essential to the human is obviously climate. There is no escaping the reality of the cold, which opens the door to other sources of nutrition, such as meat. Even the reality of the desert where meat is the staple.

This is why we more likely adapted to consume meat, simply because of the cold. meat in a sense is backup for the loss of harvest, through damp etc. don't act like things don't spoil. Not that I oppose veggies if they want to be a veggie thats upto them, but I eat meat all the time, chicken, tuna, steaks, eggs, whey protein. But I also eat alot of veggies and other sources of protein, such as Soy, tomatos, onions, potatos, spinach etc.

I feel the benefit of a rounded diet that includes alot of varied foods, this is what I call healthy eating.

I know a few veggies and they're malnurished they also start to show motoring problems as well. They have impaired dexterity and some can hardly ever get the lid back on a jar the first time. Have you all got perfect dexterity or have you also become impaired in some way? Be honest in your replies because this has always puzzled me, why people start failing at simple tasks, when they become a veggie.

I also know that the human has developed the enzymes to digest meat more efficiently and in less time than other foods such as vegetables, infact the digestion of meat starts in the mouth, unlike vegetables. Vegetables contain starch, the digestion of vegetables requires starch to be converted into sugars, (saccharides- poly - di - mono) more calories are needed to break down and digest these so they yield hardly anything. The most calories coming from fats on both sides of the scale animal and vegetable. Also the digestion of vegetables requires a higher pH than other foods, such as meat. So if we're talking about efficiency then meat is by far the most efficient staple.

[finn234]

I know what you mean, Iv'e experienced skepticism from my family, especially my dad(who's an angler btw). They really have no argument to why I shouldn't eat meat since, to be honest, I'm in much better shape and have a higher energy level than any of them. All they can come up with is that I'm wierd, but I guess they figured that out a while ago:D Even though I stopped eating meat half a year ago, no one else knows about it, though I know some are getting quite suspicious.

I've noticed there is this huge defence mode that sets in at the very moment you even mention vegetarianism to a meat eater. You break the cultural norm and people probably feel like you challenge their morals and awareness by stating your decision. I actually got quite the reaction when I cleaned my diet from fast food, sweets and sodas four years ago, I can only imagine what hysteria would ensue if they got to know the latest news:D Honestly, I don't really give a shit what they think about my diet, but I wont tell them unless they ask me directly, why would I?

im a fellow veggie and ive found similar reactions from people. sometimes people will make some daft jokes but i dont care at all. i think it makes people feel a bit awkward sometimes because they think your judging them. like when my mates are talking about bacon and beef and stuff sometimes some of them will be like 'sorry, man, i forgot you might be offended' like as if im some frail ninny! i could give a shit if they eat meat or not! its their business.

also, i think that some people might feel a bit guilty of the fact that they know its wrong to be eating exploited animals from KFC or whatever, but they dont have the strength to say 'i aint eating that'.

it just gets on my nerves a bit when i say im a veggie and people say things like 'i dont care, as long as its food ill eat it!' like yeah, never mind if the creature has been living in its own faeces for years and had its neck broken at a young age just because you fancied a snack.


well thats what i think anyway.

[mark1963]

I train by walking with weights and bodybuilding. My energy levels are very high when eating a vegan diet but after eating a meat meal (even combined) I feel tight and sore the next morning. This proves to me that high levels of protein do not do good to a body. I still make those gains when on a meat free diet. There appears to be no downside.

[godgoo]

I train by walking with weights and bodybuilding. My energy levels are very high when eating a vegan diet but after eating a meat meal (even combined) I feel tight and sore the next morning. This proves to me that high levels of protein do not do good to a body. I still make those gains when on a meat free diet. There appears to be no downside.PM me a sample diet?, bro. Maybe I could benefit from more vegetables as I have also noticed energy levels are high when consuming raw vegetables such as celery. I also do get low on carbs, but I always feel great on animal protein and fats.

[godgoo]

fin234 You have a good point, no doubt. I hate animal abuse. I never goto MD, KFC, BK or anywhere like that, I have strict protocols when it comes to my meat. Although I am a sucker for farmed fish. But wild fish would be better beyond a doubt.

[yoyoinmyhead]

I think most people do that because they fear the inevitable guilt of having one less person contributing with them to animal abuse.

You know, for some reason, sheepish people feel as if because everyone else does something they can do it too.

anyway yeah, I don't eat meat, I'm not vegan though.
The argument for eating meat is utterly ridiculous.

The reason people seem bigger when they eat meat is because their intestines swell up. The idea of meat being more nutrient dense is correct, however for the amount of money you would pay for the average steak, you could get three or four kilos of oats and if you prepared it correctly you would have far more food and for longer too.

The main reason I do not eat meat is because I can not stand the idea of killing a cow or a chicken, so I can not bring myself to support someone else doing so no matter how far down the line it happens. I don't have the heart to refuse it when offered though.

but another reason I tend to eat other food is because it can be stored longer and is easier to prepare/clean up.

[horseface]

Meat-eaters: have claws
Herbivores: no claws
Humans: no claws

Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue
Herbivores: perspire through skin pores
Humans: perspire through skin pores

Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding
Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding
Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding

Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly
Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.

Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater
Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater

Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.
Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits
Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits

Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains

People usually point at their canine teeth and say that we are designed for meat consumption. I'd love to see somebody take down a cow and tear it apart with their teeth and, erm, claws.

[supertzar]

Meat-eaters: have claws
Herbivores: no claws
Humans: no claws

Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue
Herbivores: perspire through skin pores
Humans: perspire through skin pores

Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding
Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding
Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding

Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly
Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.

Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater
Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater

Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.
Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits
Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits

Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains

People usually point at their canine teeth and say that we are designed for meat consumption. I'd love to see somebody take down a cow and tear it apart with their teeth and, erm, claws.

I've pointed out that we don't need those physical attributes. We have the great equalizer - opposable thumbs. We are HUMAN BEINGS. We can HUNT and COOK.

[gorgeousgertie]

ooooooh excellent!We'll just chop everyones thumbs off then no more meat eating ever hehehehehehehe!!!

[cleft_asunder]

Meat-eaters: have claws
Herbivores: no claws
Humans: no claws

Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue
Herbivores: perspire through skin pores
Humans: perspire through skin pores

Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding
Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding
Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding

Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly
Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.

Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater
Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater

Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.
Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits
Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits

Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains

People usually point at their canine teeth and say that we are designed for meat consumption. I'd love to see somebody take down a cow and tear it apart with their teeth and, erm, claws.

What a silly list. "Meat-eaters!" I believe the term is carnivore. :rolleyes: What a complete list btw --I love how the omnivores aren't even mentioned. But that's okay, I'll trust the last 10,000+ of human dietary choice, that being that humans just naturally hunted and ate meat and other things. Your list sorta disintegrates in light of history.