Are people born disabled because of karmic debt?

[steppewar]

I'm not trying to be offensive here. I have often wondered why some people are unlucky enough to be born into a crippled body.

Is it because they have done very bad things in a previous life? Is this a form of spiritual punishment and learning?

If you really do reap what you sow, and what comes around goes around, then the answer to this must be yes.

[amar7]

I do not believe in karma, but I like the idea partly though..
edit: ...only if one seeks to be better for the next life

[netta]

Actually, I don't think that it necessarily means that they did something bad in a previous life, but I think that it could possibly just be that they wanted to learn something from being put in that circumstance. They also could have chosen that path because they had something to teach others as well as themselves.

[danucrom]

Its a control system that the elite love because when people believe in it benefits them. Some people who believe in karma will use it to excuse just about anything, they will excuse oppressors and justify oppression.
eg;
People getting butchered in the middle east: they are being punished for wrongdoings in a past life.
People who organise the butchering of people in the middle east: they will get their payback in the next life.
Its bullshit that helps keep the status que in place.

[i_am]

I don't believe in karma as it is portrayed either. I think karma is simply experience, not payback.

[saab1981]

I believe that the annunaki came down from the heavens, and took a long time experimenting and mixing their DNA with the existing homo erectus, to make the 'perfect' human (in their image). I would imagine they made some deformed and abnormal humans before they got their 'perfect' version. Could it be that people with crippled bodies are a permanent echo of the annunaki experiments that went wrong? I.e. dwarfism, downs syndrome and so on.

I hope this isn't offensive, as it isn't intended to be, but just a theory.

[megafish33]

If you really do reap what you sow, and what comes around goes around, then the answer to this must be yes.

Some people do reap what they sow, and others reap what they never had the chance to sow. If we keep reincarnating then karmic theory may be true on some level. If we don't reincarnate, then how can we reap what we sowed in a "past life?" Would karma just apply to the current life? I have a feeling that no, it wouldn't. Yes, some people work hard, and receive benefits. However, some don't do shit, yet stuff seems to go their way regardless. Some people have good hearts, yet they're placed in totally screwed up situations-no legs, no vision, hateful parents, Idk... I don't think there is really a correlation, and I think many sages of the past have lied to us unintentionally. All things are possible I suppose...

[rossus]

Is it because they have done very bad things in a previous life? Is this a form of spiritual punishment and learning?
nah, dont think so!

[thunda]

Is it because they have done very bad things in a previous life? Is this a form of spiritual punishment and learning?.

No - its because some biological process didn't work out how nature intended. To use an analogy (and not comparing a disabled person in any way to this) - but if you mass-produce millions of cars with 1000s of moving parts, its fair to assume the odd one will come out faulty .. why? Because nothing can be reproduced 'perfectly' every time.

So when you up the scale to billions of people each with millions and millions of "moving parts" the same is going to be true and with a massive range of 'faults'. Nothing to do with Karma.

[limelady]

Karma is no longer part of my reality, and once you no longer accept karma as a reality for YOU I don't believe people come back here to live a life of redemption etc. Perhaps by choice though for the experience...if that's what you desire.

But I do DO see the law of attraction at work in THIS life, in that many times I have seen people get back what they've been putting 'out there'. Its almost like a fail-safe system built into the matrix or something. Maybe its even one of the natural laws of the universe, and when it comes to things like casting a hex or a dark magic spell on another, those that wish the harm seem to indeed get it back 3-fold.....and from what I've seen it ain't pretty! :eek:

[Anders Lindman]

In the future advanced medicine and other things will be able to heal everybody. The universe if far more capable than we have been led to believe I think.

I have never lived other than NOW. I'm almost certain about it.

[loderlive]

I'm not trying to be offensive here. I have often wondered why some people are unlucky enough to be born into a crippled body.

Is it because they have done very bad things in a previous life? Is this a form of spiritual punishment and learning?

If you really do reap what you sow, and what comes around goes around, then the answer to this must be yes.

If you've done something bad in a previous life i'd associate spiritual punishment coming back as someone like george w bush. All of our body is crippled to a greater or lesser degree. Human consciousness is more important than the physical body.

[mr_pixie]

Human consciousness is more important than the physical body.
I agree with that :D

[coshh]

I agree with that :D

So I guess you both won't mind me harvesting your organs whilst your alive since your consciousness is clearly more important than having an intact body?

[mr_pixie]

consciousness is clearly more important than having an intact body? yes :p

[geewhizz]

steppewar I'm not trying to be offensive here. I have often wondered why some people are unlucky enough to be born into a crippled body.

Is it because they have done very bad things in a previous life? Is this a form of spiritual punishment and learning?

If you really do reap what you sow, and what comes around goes around, then the answer to this must be yes.

Who the fuck r u? Glenn Hoddle

[coshh]

yes :p

So can I have your liver? I am thinking of drinking heavily next weekend and could do with a spare.

[farros]

i think all people are born the way they are for a reason, including disabled people.. it all goes towards growth and understanding IMO..

for instance, there was this girl in the UK who had acid thrown in her face by some unknown attacker, she lost her good looks and was permenently disfigured, at first she was devestated but later said she wouldnt go back to how she was because of the maturity she'd gone through, life lessons etc..

Of course not everyone thinks like this, but i think we all appear how were meant to.. If a girl wants a boob job cos shes insecure of her small breasts... then maybe that insecurity is a neccesary part of her evolution. Learning to be satisfied with who you are is one of lifes major challenges.

[coshh]

i think all people are born the way they are for a reason, including disabled people.. it all goes towards growth and understanding IMO..

for instance, there was this girl in the UK who had acid thrown in her face by some unknown attacker, she lost her good looks and was permenently disfigured, at first she was devestated but later said she wouldnt go back to how she was because of the maturity she'd gone through, life lessons etc..

Of course not everyone thinks like this, but i think we all appear how were meant to.. If a girl wants a boob job cos shes insecure of her small breasts... then maybe that insecurity is a neccesary part of her evolution. Learning to be satisfied with who you are is one of lifes major challenges.

And kids with Tay Sachs who die before they're 5, what brilliant lessons are they here to learn?

[i_am]

And kids with Tay Sachs who die before they're 5, what brilliant lessons are they here to learn?


Perhaps their role was to teach?

[coshh]

Perhaps their role was to teach?That is a pretty big assumption though.

[pri01]

When Glenn Hoddle attempted to get this point across there was absolute uproar especially from parents of children with disabilities. I can actually see both points of view but would be very careful expressing either view in general conversation with people I didn't know that well. Having a disabled child is a highly emotional experience and can sometimes have parents feeling, amongst other emotional turmoil, a large proportion of guilt. So to suggest that the child may have deserved it because they were bad in a previous life is pretty explosive IMO.

[i_am]

I assume nothing!

Who knows what another person's role is in this 3D incarnation. I certainly don't.

[coshh]

I assume nothing!

Who knows what another person's role is in this 3D incarnation. I certainly don't.
It's a pretty big assumption to assume there is a role at all.

[i_am]

It's a pretty big assumption to assume there is a role at all.

Not assumption, belief :)

[geewhizz]

Who says we've all lived previous lives anyway??

Billy (The Fraud) Mier says that all mentally ill and disabled are the first incarnations in the 3D vibration??


At the end of the day, who gives a shit, we all are made of the same shite and all die (physically anyhow).

[phildee3]

My partner and I both work with "special needs" clients.
The word "disabled" is not in our vocabulary.
We use the word "diff-abled."

Everyone has different abilities.
I might have superior long-sightedness to you, but you might be able to run faster than I. Does that make me a "cripple"?

In our buisiness, the skill is to find the alternative abilities that a client has and work with them.
It is well known that blind people tend to have better hearing than those who are sighted, for example.

People with "Down's syndrome" have some fascinating talents.

And anyway, who is to say that these folks are not "normal," and that it is us who are not??

[coshh]

My partner and I both work with "special needs" clients.
The word "disabled" is not in our vocabulary.
We use the word "diff-abled."


If I had "special needs" I would find that really patronising and annoying personally. Like when Gandhi called the Dalit's "Harijans". It's condescending.


And anyway, who is to say that these folks are not "normal," and that it is us who are not??
The fact they need special help in itself...

[vera susa]

Has anyone noticed just how HEAVILY
the "New Age', "Secular" Anti-'Religious'
and self proclaimed Anti-Christs/Satanists,
PUSH & PROMOTE the SAME IDIOTIC,
LONG AGO DEBUNKED, EVIL LIES of ROME
that did nothing but
CAUSE DEATHS of INNOCENTS?

[danucrom]

Has anyone noticed just how HEAVILY
the "New Age', "Secular" Anti-'Religious'
and self proclaimed Anti-Christs/Satanists,
PUSH & PROMOTE the SAME IDIOTIC,
LONG AGO DEBUNKED, EVIL LIES of ROME
that did nothing but
CAUSE DEATHS of INNOCENTS?

Of course, its their best tactic, out with the old and in with the "new". Except the "new" isn't really new at all, it is the same old shit re-packaged.

[lemonique]

Perhaps their role was to teach?

Yes I Am !! Compassion, understanding and Love of all fellow humans.

Lemonique

[farros]

Perhaps their role was to teach?

spot on!

perhaps it was the parents who needed to experience the loss of a child.

[astro zombie]

Sometimes i often wonder if the body you recieve in this life is sort of the "'luck of the draw'" so to speak. Since the eternal us, our consciousness, survies the 'death' of the body, surely we are making a conscious decision of where we want to incarnate for an experiance, we may be drawn or attracted to an experiance, like say living a life on earth, but we don't get to pick out what body we have, what we get is what we get and we just have to learn from that experiance and move on.

Just my crazy half-baked thoughts.:D

[kblood]

Lets say souls gets to live several lives, which seems likely in some ways. Then even though you live a life of 5 years, or as a disabled person in some way, you still get to live a life in a new way, getting a different experience of how life can be and a different perspective on everything. Just like the people around the person with what we commonly refer to as disabilities, gets the chance to help or support this person.

As for karma, I dont believe in it as something that goes beyond one lifetime. It does also seem karma might be something that simply isnt there in any way other than if you hurt someone, you are likely to make enemies. Every action has a reaction, and they are likely to bounce back to you in a negative or positive way.

I dont believe karma is a dominant rule or law of everything. At most it seems something beings of this plane of existance and parallel planes of existance might be enforcing in one way or another, leaving many options open for ways to avoid karmic backlashes.

When it comes to reincarnation, I believe it is most likely that when a soul incarnate, it is taking a chance to live a physical life. The call of the flesh, and sometimes the roll of the dice is against it. Today there seems many ways for most kinds of disabled people to still get to live a full life. And again I believe it is very important that we have these other kinds of perspectives and live that these genetic flaws or what they might be, forces us to have. In nature I believe that some of the "genetic failures" that started being a flaw, prooves to be an advantage in some way, and making for a new kind of being possible. Seeing the strange animals we get sometimes it seems very likely that some races started out as having a flaw that turned out to be usefull.

[armoured_amazon]

Incomplete and/or impaired genetic coding.

[drael]

People who are born in any condition do not suffer unless we make them, because ones experience defines ones perception. If we call disabled people different, or react to them strangely, then they will suffer because of us.

So, no, its our bad karma not theirs.

[andrewandrew]

No - its because some biological process didn't work out how nature intended. To use an analogy (and not comparing a disabled person in any way to this) - but if you mass-produce millions of cars with 1000s of moving parts, its fair to assume the odd one will come out faulty .. why? Because nothing can be reproduced 'perfectly' every time.

So when you up the scale to billions of people each with millions and millions of "moving parts" the same is going to be true and with a massive range of 'faults'. Nothing to do with Karma.

what he/she said.

[andrewandrew]

People who are born in any condition do not suffer unless we make them, because ones experience defines ones perception. If we call disabled people different, or react to them strangely, then they will suffer because of us.

So, no, its our bad karma not theirs.

Ones experience defines perception - which says to me suffering is self imposed. Misery and suffering are only states of mind like terror is, a disabled person can only suffer if they compare themselves to the 'abled'.. so again, it's self imposed. Sounds retarded but it makes sense - all depends on how a guy deals with experiences.

[3stepsahead]

i think amazon has the likely answer.
when compared to other animals , humans do have a lot of uncommon deceases, and perhaps it is the poisons wich we put in our bodys that are a big contributor to some of thise illness?

i like to belive in the carma but not in a christian way :rolleyes:

[spiraltrance]

I'm not trying to be offensive here. I have often wondered why some people are unlucky enough to be born into a crippled body.

Is it because they have done very bad things in a previous life? Is this a form of spiritual punishment and learning?

Not quite that simple. People who are born disabled aren't all necesarily paying for sins they've commited in a previous life. They may have been born into such circumstances so they develop along a specific path. Quite often being outcasts will give them alot of time for reflection and allow them to develop spiritualy alot faster than normal humans who get sucked into 5 sense pursuits. Also, we, normal people who think they have bad lives can see that our lives aren't as difficult as some other peoples.

Once I was walking down the street and saw a severly disabled women in wheelchair. She couldn't speak and had the typical uncontrollable physical posture that most spastics have. Yet as I walked past her I felt an extremely strong wave of telepathic communication saying 'hello' to me. As I looked at her she tried her best to smile though her disability meant she couldn't hold a smile for very long.

[spiraltrance]

If you really do reap what you sow, and what comes around goes around, then the answer to this must be yes.

Yes you do reap what you sow but there are many, many ways to reap what you've sown. Say you murder someone in a future life you could be murdered yourself, or have a painful life starving in the third world, be sexualy abused or even just be the parent of the person you murdered and spend most of your adult life working hard to riase them. Karma isn't quite an eye for an eye.

[spiraltrance]

Its a control system that the elite love because when people believe in it benefits them. Some people who believe in karma will use it to excuse just about anything, they will excuse oppressors and justify oppression.
eg;
People getting butchered in the middle east: they are being punished for wrongdoings in a past life.
People who organise the butchering of people in the middle east: they will get their payback in the next life.
Its bullshit that helps keep the status que in place.

There are subtle karmic reasons why the middle east is having the problems it is. Not necesarily because they're all paying sins in a past life, but also because they won't change in the present.

[synergy777]

i do not think its karmic debt, as the views of karma are misunderstood and corrupted by the vedic priesthood.

the creator is not malicious or evil and thus is not into punishing people.

i think it could be the other way aound, as in evolved spirits choose to reincarante in disabled bodies for the challenge/lessons.

look at the drive/spirit of disabled people, they acheive great things compared to able bodied people eg olympics etc.

[danucrom]

There are subtle karmic reasons why the middle east is having the problems it is. Not necesarily because they're all paying sins in a past life, but also because they won't change in the present.

So in your mind you can somehow justify what is happening out there?. Maybe when they come to kick your door in you will somehow be able to justify that too. Doesn't karma make the gears of tyranny run so smoothly:rolleyes:.

[spiraltrance]

So in your mind you can somehow justify what is happening out there?

It's not a justification it's an observation.

Maybe when they come to kick your door in you will somehow be able to justify that too.

I listen to my intuition. If that day ever does comes my intuition would have hopefuly warned me and they would find my flat empty.

Doesn't karma make the gears of tyranny run so smoothly:rolleyes:.

Yes it does. Many people in the ME are enslaved by a tyranncial medieval belief system and collectively less willing to move with the times. There is a connection to that mindset and the external events around them.

Example: the other day in afghanistan a suicide bomber killed about 20 people (men, women and children) and injured many more who had turned up to watch a dog fight which. Dog fighting and bear-baiting is considered perfectly acceptible family fun. That's an example of karma.


http://incobra.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/photo_bear_baiting.jpghttp://www.abolitionist-online.com/images/pictures/photo_dogs_attacking.jpg
http://www.healthline.com/blogs/healthline_connects/uploaded_images/bearbaiting-796768.jpg

[danucrom]

It's not a justification it's an observation.
Call it whatever you want to call it, what you are basically saying is they had it coming to them.

I listen to my intuition. If that day ever does comes my intuition would have hopefuly warned me and they would find my flat empty.
And if your intuition fails you and you are dragged off by goons in black uniforms no doubt you will put it down to karmic retribution for your misdeeds.

Yes it does. Many people in the ME are enslaved by a tyranncial medieval belief system and collectively less willing to move with the times. There is a connection to that mindset and the external events around them.
How very pompous and self righteous, who are you to say what their "mindset" is or is not. Do you know any of them personally?, it would be intresting to know how you got insight in to the nature of their collective mindset.To caterogize a people in such broad and sweeping terms is ignorant.

Example: the other day in afghanistan a suicide bomber killed about 20 people (men, women and children) and injured many more who had turned up to watch a dog fight which. Dog fighting and bear-baiting is considered perfectly acceptible family fun. That's an example of karma.

Oh that makes it ok then:rolleyes:. Whats the difference between them watching a dog fight and enlightened people such as yourself watching people such as them getting pulverised on TV?. Your arguement is bankrupt.

[deliciously_fresh]

I'm not trying to be offensive here. I have often wondered why some people are unlucky enough to be born into a crippled body.

Is it because they have done very bad things in a previous life? Is this a form of spiritual punishment and learning?

If you really do reap what you sow, and what comes around goes around, then the answer to this must be yes.

I've pondered this myself. Personally, I think that their spirits chose to incarnate into bodies with limited abilities for a reason. Possibly to teach us onlookers compassion? To learn how to deal with prejudice?

I used to think it was punishment because of 'bad karma' for their behaviour in past lives. I don't think this is the case anymore.

[spiraltrance]

And if your intuition fails you and you are dragged off by goons in black uniforms no doubt you will put it down to karmic retribution for your misdeeds.

Trust me dude i'm not getting dragged of by goons in black unifroms.


How very pompous and self righteous, who are you to say what their "mindset" is or is not. Do you know any of them personally?, it would be intresting to know how you got insight in to the nature of their collective mindset.To caterogize a people in such broad and sweeping terms is ignorant.

There collective mindset involves bowing down to dead scirpture and worshipping false idols. If thats not the case then how come when they pray x times a day they're getting the problems they have? Seriously if I was praying to some almighty powerful God and found myself experiencing what some people in the ME are I'd ask myself some serious questions about the accuracy of this God.



Whats the difference between them watching a dog fight and enlightened people such as yourself watching people such as them getting pulverised on TV?. Your arguement is bankrupt.

I don't get kick out of torturing animals and watching them fight to the death. I also avoid watching TV too.

[trumansho]

I do not believe in karma, but I like the idea partly though..
edit: ...only if one seeks to be better for the next life
well do u believe in Cause and effect?

[trumansho]

karma can be good or bad. It just what you put out there and you would receive it back. it's just the laws of attraction!

[amar7]

no mate, karma is not the same as law of attraction, the thought alone is very different

one is saying basically "what you reap is what you sow"

and the other says that things are going bad because of what the past generations reaped that's whats we're sowing.
So the differens is this: one is talking about attracting situations in your and others life in this life and the other is saying, that we got some things of past generations deeds and the next generations will get circumstances because of what we are doing or thinking today and thats what i dont believe in
i dont even believe in resurrection, so it doesnt make sense to me anyway

[amar7]

well do u believe in Cause and effect?

absolutely:)

[tejas]

We are infinity exploring itself

Infinity can do anything to itself, hence Karma

If something bad happens it is the consciousses own fear being realised

The rules of the universe are infinitely more complex then a simple law of attraction or karma

Some of the most beautiful souls are the ones with the most disabilities,
and some of the most ugly the ones with disabilities too

Nothing is as it seems

Because it is so infinitely complex however, it really is so infinitely simple

Accept in the moment that you a pure existance, requiring nothing but yourself to exist, requiring no-thing to be happy or requiring no experience and then you are free.

Seek ye first the kingdom of God, which is within you, and then all these things shall be added unto you.

Find yourself before you play with yourself :)

[xxxx]

if being disabled was payback then you should remember it. whats the point in punishing someone for something that they don't know about? all your talk about karmic debt, seems like you missed it.

[intruder]

no...it's just evolution messing around and sometimes screwing up.

Accept the suchness of the moment and see that there is NO problem at all.
-thus speaks the new spirituality

[armoured_amazon]

I find that my students with learning disabilities have greater gifts of the self.

[truthseekeruk]

I find that my students with learning disabilities have greater gifts of the self.

As a mother of a child with severe autism (he wasnt born that way he regressed in the second year of life). I have found that the less able tend to have greater self awareness and humanity they know humility and do not show the same close minded judgement and arrogance as the rest of society. I know which i would rather associate with :)

Anyway we are all disabled to a degree are we not? I have yet to meet a "PERFECT HUMAN". If anyone here knows of this perfect specimen can you email me their phone number?

I believe we are born many times and each life we learn different leassons until we have reached an awareness where we can move on. Its fate not karma everything happens for a reason.

Incidentally i love my son to bits it was because of him that I saw how cold and uncaring the world truly was and how it struggles to accept differences. My son has taught me some incredible life lessons.

I find many so called normal people are disabled by their egos and arrogance. One of lifes lessons we all need to experience and understand is humilty. To let go of that ego driven part of our psyche is a lesson we all need to experience.

[armoured_amazon]

As a mother of a child with severe autism (he wasnt born that way he regressed in the second year of life). I have found that the less able tend to have greater self awareness and humanity they know humility and do not show the same close minded judgement and arrogance as the rest of society. I know which i would rather associate with :)

Anyway we are all disabled to a degree are we not? I have yet to meet a "PERFECT HUMAN". If anyone here knows of this perfect specimen can you email me their phone number?

I believe we are born many times and each life we learn different leassons until we have reached an awareness where we can move on. Its fate not karma everything happens for a reason.

Incidentally i love my son to bits it was because of him that I saw how cold and uncaring the world truly was and how it struggles to accept differences. My son has taught me some incredible life lessons.

I find many so called normal people are disabled by their egos and arrogance. One of lifes lessons we all need to experience and understand is humilty. To let go of that ego driven part of our psyche is a lesson we all need to experience.

Definitely. :)

[zero1]

Of course, its their best tactic, out with the old and in with the "new". Except the "new" isn't really new at all, it is the same old shit re-packaged.

True. They love their forms of Determinism: "sin-debt", "Karma", "God's Will" etc. All the same shit. Law of Attraction is no different: why would anyone attract disability and a lifetime of suffering consciously or unconsciously? The only answer can be misdeeds in a previous life, or (for those who believe only one incarnation) it would be original sin. It's all Matrix-womb bullshit used to cripple you psychologically and emotionally, for control purposes. As one poster said, Karma/Sin-debt/God's Will keep the wheels and cogs of tyranny turning evermore.

Bad genetic coding results sometimes in a body that is ill-formed to 'fit' with a soul or psyche. This sometimes results in mental and physical disabilities.

There can be both temporal and extemporal reasons for such occurences. The mothers body during gestation, if affected by hazardous chemicals or inhibitive habits that invoke negative energies (stress is a major factor), may be the body that births a disabled child. Trauma in the womb, psychological I mean (during downloads), can be a huge factor too.

Extemporal reasons might be a little difficult for me to elabourate on here, since you don't see what I see, but when a psyche passes out of time from one level of existence to another, it reforms or reshapes and the meld of conscious/(sub)unconscious forms a mnemonic block that preserves one Self and creates simultaneously a potential Other, which can load into a new form or body.

If, due to failure to reconnect with the Divine/Source during a life lived, it then has to reincarnate on the same level as before, it must seek a fairly compatible body to "code" for hypostasis (ie. the union of mind and body). Trauma factors may make this coding process at conception flawed or faulty, resulting again in deformations and disabilities, due to bad connections/wiring between the psyche and the form it takes.

Compassion is the answer, not blame. As many have rightly pointed out, sufferers from the lack of things that "normal", healthy people take for granted often have compensatory gifts, and with love and nurture they can be wonderful, complete and celebrated human beings in their own right. :)

[truthseekeruk]

True. They love their forms of Determinism: "sin-debt", "Karma", "God's Will" etc. All the same shit. Law of Attraction is no different: why would anyone attract disability and a lifetime of suffering consciously or unconsciously? The only answer can be misdeeds in a previous life, or (for those who believe only one incarnation) it would be original sin. It's all Matrix-womb bullshit used to cripple you psychologically and emotionally, for control purposes. As one poster said, Karma/Sin-debt/God's Will keep the wheels and cogs of tyranny turning evermore.

Bad genetic coding results sometimes in a body that is ill-formed to 'fit' with a soul or psyche. This sometimes results in mental and physical disabilities.

There can be both temporal and extemporal reasons for such occurences. The mothers body during gestation, if affected by hazardous chemicals or inhibitive habits that invoke negative energies (stress is a major factor), may be the body that births a disabled child. Trauma in the womb, psychological I mean (during downloads), can be a huge factor too.

Extemporal reasons might be a little difficult for me to elabourate on here, since you don't see what I see, but when a psyche passes out of time from one level of existence to another, it reforms or reshapes and the meld of conscious/(sub)unconscious forms a mnemonic block that preserves one Self and creates simultaneously a potential Other, which can load into a new form or body.

If, due to failure to reconnect with the Divine/Source during a life lived, it then has to reincarnate on the same level as before, it must seek a fairly compatible body to "code" for hypostasis (ie. the union of mind and body). Trauma factors may make this coding process at conception flawed or faulty, resulting again in deformations and disabilities, due to bad connections/wiring between the psyche and the form it takes.

Compassion is the answer, not blame. As many have rightly pointed out, sufferers from the lack of things that "normal", healthy people take for granted often have compensatory gifts, and with love and nurture they can be wonderful, complete and celebrated human beings in their own right. :)

interesting theory but how do you account for a person who was born perfectly normal and by accident/illness became disabled? Incidentally autism is hereditory and its not faulty genes (Einstein was autistic aspergers) we are all on the spectrum, my son is reacted to a vaccine - he was born healthy and developed speech which he lost following overload of toxins injected into his body. Mercury is a known neurotoxin. It tends to screw with the neurons in the brain hence bad connections/wiring as it is shown to destroy the delicate neurons in the brain.

Compassion is is another word for pity in my book - another excuse for those who are more fortunate to feel superioir to those who are less fortunuate.

Disabled people dont want compassion they want understanding.... and to be treated as equals.

[majicdragon]

I believe that the annunaki came down from the heavens, and took a long time experimenting and mixing their DNA with the existing homo erectus, to make the 'perfect' human (in their image). I would imagine they made some deformed and abnormal humans before they got their 'perfect' version. Could it be that people with crippled bodies are a permanent echo of the annunaki experiments that went wrong? I.e. dwarfism, downs syndrome and so on.

I hope this isn't offensive, as it isn't intended to be, but just a theory.

I figured they slept with the daughters of men because they couldn't control themselves. Couldn't keep it in their pants.

[astral_girl]

As a mother of a child with severe autism (he wasnt born that way he regressed in the second year of life). I have found that the less able tend to have greater self awareness and humanity they know humility and do not show the same close minded judgement and arrogance as the rest of society. I know which i would rather associate with :)

Anyway we are all disabled to a degree are we not? I have yet to meet a "PERFECT HUMAN". If anyone here knows of this perfect specimen can you email me their phone number?

I believe we are born many times and each life we learn different leassons until we have reached an awareness where we can move on. Its fate not karma everything happens for a reason.

Incidentally i love my son to bits it was because of him that I saw how cold and uncaring the world truly was and how it struggles to accept differences. My son has taught me some incredible life lessons.

I find many so called normal people are disabled by their egos and arrogance. One of lifes lessons we all need to experience and understand is humilty. To let go of that ego driven part of our psyche is a lesson we all need to experience.


hi truthseeker
welcome to the forum-just wanted to drop by say hello-i have a autistic son too,heres a link to another forum i use alot -lots of infomation and help on it .....not that im saying you need it...i just have found it very helpfull-thought id pass it on (maybe you already know of it :))
http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/

[armoured_amazon]

Compassion is is another word for pity in my book - another excuse for those who are more fortunate to feel superioir to those who are less fortunuate.

That's a shame. If you don't have compassion, how can you truly have fulfilling relationships with people and reach your potential? Without compassion there is no true connection with others or scope for positive change.

[truthseekeruk]

That's a shame. If you don't have compassion, how can you truly have fulfilling relationships with people and reach your potential? Without compassion there is no true connection with others or scope for positive change.

Amazon I experienced first hand what people say is "compassion" towards my son, this wasnt empathy/compassion/understanding but compassion used as pity and saying things like "oh poor thing etc. etc". The problem is many display "compassion" in a condescending way. Many disabled people I know - find this highly patronising. I suppose unless you are on the receiving end its difficult to appreciate just how can compassion come across to those who are beneficiaries of it. The compassion you refer to above is when you can identify/empathise with someone as an equal, unfortunately this is not the case when some1 is disabled.

:D

[truthseekeruk]

hi truthseeker
welcome to the forum-just wanted to drop by say hello-i have a autistic son too,heres a link to another forum i use alot -lots of infomation and help on it .....not that im saying you need it...i just have found it very helpfull-thought id pass it on (maybe you already know of it :))
http://www.asd-forum.org.uk/forum/

thanks astral :D

[revolutionary_jam]

I'm not trying to be offensive here. I have often wondered why some people are unlucky enough to be born into a crippled body.

Is it because they have done very bad things in a previous life? Is this a form of spiritual punishment and learning?

If you really do reap what you sow, and what comes around goes around, then the answer to this must be yes.



It might be less likely to be debt but more likely to be that they are to learn something from the experience,


I'm not christian but take as the example Jesus of Nazareth being asked by a leper woman to heal her, he asks of her "what have you learned from your illness" and she says "nothing!! I have never had friends, I have never known a man, how can you ask me what I've learned from this?" and so Jesus says, "I will not hear you, for if you have learned nothing then your disease has still to serve you"

[armoured_amazon]

Amazon I experienced first hand what people say is "compassion" towards my son, this wasnt empathy/compassion/understanding but compassion used as pity and saying things like "oh poor thing etc. etc". The problem is many display "compassion" in a condescending way. Many disabled people I know - find this highly patronising. I suppose unless you are on the receiving end its difficult to appreciate just how can compassion come across to those who are beneficiaries of it. The compassion you refer to above is when you can identify/empathise with someone as an equal, unfortunately this is not the case when some1 is disabled.

:D

I think you've had negative experiences, for sure. True compassion is not about pity. ;)

[truthseekeruk]

I think you've had negative experiences, for sure. True compassion is not about pity. ;)

Amen to that!

I think words can be confusing I know most people are not intentionally hurtful but they can be unaware just how words can make others feel. :o

[amethyst]

As a mother of a child with severe autism (he wasnt born that way he regressed in the second year of life). I have found that the less able tend to have greater self awareness and humanity they know humility and do not show the same close minded judgement and arrogance as the rest of society. I know which i would rather associate with :)

Anyway we are all disabled to a degree are we not? I have yet to meet a "PERFECT HUMAN". If anyone here knows of this perfect specimen can you email me their phone number?

I believe we are born many times and each life we learn different leassons until we have reached an awareness where we can move on. Its fate not karma everything happens for a reason.

Incidentally i love my son to bits it was because of him that I saw how cold and uncaring the world truly was and how it struggles to accept differences. My son has taught me some incredible life lessons.

I find many so called normal people are disabled by their egos and arrogance. One of lifes lessons we all need to experience and understand is humilty. To let go of that ego driven part of our psyche is a lesson we all need to experience.

Hello truthseekeruk and welcome to the forum! :)

I couldn't agree more with what you've written here. I can identify, because as a young girl, I had scoliosis, a severe curvature of the spine, and as a result I had to have a spinal operation to correct it......I spent close to a year in a body cast. I'm fine now, but If my mother had not caught it early enough, it might have developed into a permanently deformed back.

Fortunately as a result of that surgery, I have fabulous posture.....which I often get complimented on.

But I believe that as a result of having gone thru what I did, I feel it has given me empathy or understanding for others, particularly those with physical challenges and such. And you are very correct. Those who have or are going thru any sort of physical challenge do not want our pity in the least. They don't want to be singled out as different or odd. They just want acceptance and understanding. Just as everyone deserves this, I believe.

[zero1]

Interesting theory but how do you account for a person who was born perfectly normal and by accident/illness became disabled?

That was already answered in my previous post, you'll find. I have no time to discuss the philosophy of this with you in greater depth, unfortunately.

Incidentally autism is hereditory and its not faulty genes...

Heredity involves the passing of genetic material. :rolleyes:

...my son is reacted to a vaccine - he was born healthy and developed speech which he lost following overload of toxins injected into his body. Mercury is a known neurotoxin. It tends to screw with the neurons in the brain hence bad connections/wiring as it is shown to destroy the delicate neurons in the brain.

Yes. I'm sorry for him. But it was not Karma, of that you can be sure...

Compassion is is another word for pity in my book - another excuse for those who are more fortunate to feel superioir to those who are less fortunuate.

No-one of any significant maturity who considers themselves fortunate in life will likely measure their feelings of superiority, if any, against the predicament of a disabled person.

Disabled people dont want compassion they want understanding.... and to be treated as equals.

That opinion right there is a pity, because without compassion there can be no understanding or equality.

[armoured_amazon]

Those who have or are going thru any sort of physical challenge do not want our pity in the least. They don't want to be singled out as different or odd. They just want acceptance and understanding. Just as everyone deserves this, I believe.

Hear, hear. :)

[cyberdaemon]

But if you have done very bad things then because you have suffered as well.Its not just what goes around , comes around.Its also what comes around , goes around.Why ? Because people lived in tragedy see the world as tragedy.They know nothing else but tragedy.They automatically presume everything is tragedy and meant to be that way.The people who have never felt any true love can never share love.So thats why its important not to fight with "evil" , you actually have to break into theyr circle of tragedy and show them there is more than just tragedy!

I can say i have never felt any true closeness with anyone and for the most part i dont even believe in existence of life here on earth.

[armoured_amazon]

But if you have done very bad things then because you have suffered as well.Its not just what goes around , comes around.Its also what comes around , goes around.Why ? Because people lived in tragedy see the world as tragedy.They know nothing else but tragedy.They automatically presume everything is tragedy and meant to be that way.The people who have never felt any true love can never share love.So thats why its important not to fight with "evil" , you actually have to break into theyr circle of tragedy and show them there is more than just tragedy!

I can say i have never felt any true closeness with anyone and for the most part i dont even believe in existence of life here on earth.

Trust me, people are less than polite about others doing that.

[red_ram]

Actually, I don't think that it necessarily means that they did something bad in a previous life, but I think that it could possibly just be that they wanted to learn something from being put in that circumstance. They also could have chosen that path because they had something to teach others as well as themselves.

+1

[amethyst]

But if you have done very bad things then because you have suffered as well.Its not just what goes around , comes around.Its also what comes around , goes around.Why ? Because people lived in tragedy see the world as tragedy.They know nothing else but tragedy.They automatically presume everything is tragedy and meant to be that way.The people who have never felt any true love can never share love.So thats why its important not to fight with "evil" , you actually have to break into theyr circle of tragedy and show them there is more than just tragedy!

I can say i have never felt any true closeness with anyone and for the most part i dont even believe in existence of life here on earth.

This is very true. When all a person has known is tragedy in life, then it is very hard for them to expect that there is something better. It's like if a bird who has been raised in a cage all their life , suddenly has the doors to their cage let open, that little bird is not going to know what to do, because he has never seen the outside of that cage.

I saw an illustration of this in real life. The bird raised all it's life in the cage, would not budge. It just stayed glued to it's perch. How sad!

I agree with you, you cannot fight evil. You do have to break into their circle of tragedy and show them that there is a better way.....that the tragic way is not all there is. There is something better......and there really is freedom. And if we have tasted of this freedom, we can, at the very least, help to point the way.

[phildee3]

The bird raised all it's life in the cage, would not budge. It just stayed glued to it's perch. How sad!



Not really.
It's very smart.
If it flew into the wild it wouldn't last five minutes.

What is sad are the humans who put birds in cages in the first place!

[amethyst]

Not really.
It's very smart.
If it flew into the wild it wouldn't last five minutes.

What is sad are the humans who put birds in cages in the first place!

Well yes, that's true....but I was trying to make a different point. :D

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

I'm not trying to be offensive here. I have often wondered why some people are unlucky enough to be born into a crippled body.

Is it because they have done very bad things in a previous life? Is this a form of spiritual punishment and learning?

If you really do reap what you sow, and what comes around goes around, then the answer to this must be yes.


Cordial Felicitations; Steppewar:


The "School of Thought" I embrace does not include Karma, Dharma or Re-Incarnation.


Rather the Dis-Abilities that occur in New-Bornes is 'Man-Made', somewheres Upstream from the Birth, an ancestors Blood or Genes became 'corrupted', thus successive generations bear the injury.

Corruption of Blood or Genes may be self-induced by behaviour, IE: Foodstuffs, STDs, exposure to noxious and toxic substances, or may be induced by external forces; Pollutants, Warfare, Famine, Pandemic.


One member of a couple may be afflicted, they pro-create, their off-spring may reveal no signs of the Malady, yet their off-spring may manifest the Malady.


IMO, the Children suffer due to error in Human Behaviour resulting in the corruption of Blood and/or Genes.



Regards: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[phildee3]

Well yes, that's true....but I was trying to make a different point. :D



I know.
I got your point.
Shame you didn't get mine.:(

[amethyst]

I know.
I got your point.
Shame you didn't get mine.:(

How do you know I didn't get your point? ;)

[phildee3]

How do you know I didn't get your point? ;)



If you had, you would have taken it forward, as I did.

[marmadukehussy]

I'm not trying to be offensive here. I have often wondered why some people are unlucky enough to be born into a crippled body.

Is it because they have done very bad things in a previous life? Is this a form of spiritual punishment and learning?

If you really do reap what you sow, and what comes around goes around, then the answer to this must be yes.

the answer is no as karma does not exist and is just another load of bull sh*t

[aerosteelzero]

In response to the original post.

I agree with you completely. Karma is as fundamental to spiritual development as daily food intake is to our growing bodies. Suffering causes us to seek infinite love.

Crippled people in a past life did not fully respect their body. It is a lesson they must deal with in this life. Its a very offensive thing to make fun of crippled people and I do not condone it. However, it is there actions that put them there. Once you understand karma and how it may effect you in the future, you realize that taking care of yourself now and being healthy is a very beneficial habit. You can easily see the effects of karma in a single life time. For example smoking is proven to cause lung cancer. You treat your lungs in a harmful manner and in return eventually your lung shall return the favor.

If you are interested in the wheel of karma please feel free to check out the website in my signature. Click on the symbols, they explain pictorially very well.

Peace

[danucrom]

In response to the original post.

I agree with you completely. Karma is as fundamental to spiritual development as daily food intake is to our growing bodies. Suffering causes us to seek infinite love.

Crippled people in a past life did not fully respect their body. It is a lesson they must deal with in this life. Its a very offensive thing to make fun of crippled people and I do not condone it. However, it is there actions that put them there. Once you understand karma and how it may effect you in the future, you realize that taking care of yourself now and being healthy is a very beneficial habit. You can easily see the effects of karma in a single life time. For example smoking is proven to cause lung cancer. You treat your lungs in a harmful manner and in return eventually your lung shall return the favor.

If you are interested in the wheel of karma please feel free to check out the website in my signature. Click on the symbols, they explain pictorially very well.

Peace

Karma, the elites get out of jail free card...Child gets blown into 100 pieces in Iraq "hey, don't look at us, karma did it"... People dieing of AIDS in Africa "hey, don't look at us, karma did it"... More and more People dieing of all sorts of cancers "hey, don't look at us, karma did it"... Crippled Veterans "hey, don't look at us, karma did it"... and on and on and on it goes forever and ever and ever.

The elite love karma.

[danucrom]

If you are interested in the wheel of karma please feel free to check out the website in my signature. Click on the symbols, they explain pictorially very well.

Peace

http://www.thirdtestament.com/web/templates/ja_antares/images/logo-blue.jpg

"the main symbol"
http://www.thirdtestament.com/web/images/stories/symbols/symbol_11b.jpg
Can anyone spot wally in this pretty picture??

Here is a clue:
http://www.freemason-wa.org/IMAGES/Concordant/oes.gif


Other pretty pictures from the website include:
http://www.thirdtestament.com/web/images/stories/symbols/symbol_23b.jpg

http://www.thirdtestament.com/web/images/stories/symbols/symbol_19b.jpg

Its a whats what of masonic symbolism.

[aerosteelzero]

Thanks for looking at the site. I see that you find a similarity in these symbols to other symbols. Well they are both start shaped, yes. They are both colorful, yes. Do the colors correspond? No. Is it a five pointed star? No.

You see, your argument is very lacking because there are thousands of symbols out there and I'm sure if I looked too I could find many symbols that look similar. You also need to understand the meaning of the symbol before you start automatically linking it to Masonic symbols.

I never said karma was nice and I don't think that its "okay" for people to use karma as an excuse for AIDS, war, and poverty. I understand that many critics of karma will use this argument as danucrom does. The Elite Love of karma. You must understand it first. You must except reincarnation for karma to make any sense at all. These are hard beliefs to change for many people. Don't believe in karma and reincarnation unless it makes sense to you and your experience.

I do not wish to change anyone's mind, but simply to share my own beliefs and an alternate view point. Discussion opens the mind.

Peace

[armoured_amazon]

Karma, the elites get out of jail free card...Child gets blown into 100 pieces in Iraq "hey, don't look at us, karma did it"... People dieing of AIDS in Africa "hey, don't look at us, karma did it"... More and more People dieing of all sorts of cancers "hey, don't look at us, karma did it"... Crippled Veterans "hey, don't look at us, karma did it"... and on and on and on it goes forever and ever and ever.

The elite love karma.
+ gazillions.

[zen_fox]

Karma is no longer part of my reality, and once you no longer accept karma as a reality for YOU I don't believe people come back here to live a life of redemption etc. Perhaps by choice though for the experience...if that's what you desire.

But I do DO see the law of attraction at work in THIS life, in that many times I have seen people get back what they've been putting 'out there'. Its almost like a fail-safe system built into the matrix or something. Maybe its even one of the natural laws of the universe, and when it comes to things like casting a hex or a dark magic spell on another, those that wish the harm seem to indeed get it back 3-fold.....and from what I've seen it ain't pretty! :eek:

Limelady is wise

[revolutionary_jam]

i'm sure god (or whatever it is) takes special care of the disabled, sometimes when you see mentally impaired people they seem a lot happier that most people

[element]

Everything happens for a reason.

[awakensong]

I believe that the annunaki came down from the heavens, and took a long time experimenting and mixing their DNA with the existing homo erectus, to make the 'perfect' human (in their image). I would imagine they made some deformed and abnormal humans before they got their 'perfect' version. Could it be that people with crippled bodies are a permanent echo of the annunaki experiments that went wrong? I.e. dwarfism, downs syndrome and so on.

I hope this isn't offensive, as it isn't intended to be, but just a theory.
That's a good theory, and I've heard it substantiated by a few researchers who also say that during the middle ages, there were still some of these "experiments gone wrong" living in society who were swiftly put into asylums. This was reportedly so the general public would not be alarmed, and of course not figure anything out. Who knows what (who) was really being kept in the dungeons of castles

[marpat]

I'm not trying to be offensive here. I have often wondered why some people are unlucky enough to be born into a crippled body.

Is it because they have done very bad things in a previous life? Is this a form of spiritual punishment and learning?

If you really do reap what you sow, and what comes around goes around, then the answer to this must be yes.


I thought this was the whole point of it. Say if a person had been a violent person who harmed others for no reason other then self aggrandisement then it would be fitting that they are born into such a body. What about nazi doctors who conducted experiments of people, killing disabled people and putting their bodies on display in medical schools. I guess it would work quite well.

[kweli]

Lol...

New age bollocks indeed!

[awakensong]

I thought this was the whole point of it. Say if a person had been a violent person who harmed others for no reason other then self aggrandisement then it would be fitting that they are born into such a body. What about nazi doctors who conducted experiments of people, killing disabled people and putting their bodies on display in medical schools. I guess it would work quite well.
Wouldn't that make reincarnation an endless loop, if it was being done on a "reward and punishment" system? Whomever is "doing unto others" as it was done unto them, will have to pay for it next time; it would never end. People would just keep trading places as perp and victim. I have come to understand karma as the sum total of our experiences and what we have learned from them.

[salamandras]

No - its because some biological process didn't work out how nature intended. To use an analogy (and not comparing a disabled person in any way to this) - but if you mass-produce millions of cars with 1000s of moving parts, its fair to assume the odd one will come out faulty .. why? Because nothing can be reproduced 'perfectly' every time.

So when you up the scale to billions of people each with millions and millions of "moving parts" the same is going to be true and with a massive range of 'faults'. Nothing to do with Karma.

I have to agree with this post as it is exactly the sentiment I have on the subject. (Good analogy btw!)

I used to have a computer that wouldn't load up real audio player occasionally when it booted up. As in, not even show that the program existed on my hard drive, it was just completely missing sometimes. Nothing works perfectly all of the time, the codes in our DNA just sometimes churn out a mistake when a new human is made - a human body working less effectively than the majority. India has one of the highest rates of birth defects in the world last I heard, but they also have a high rate of near relatives marrying, and their problem has nothing to do with karma, just bad breeding choices.

[element]

Wouldn't that make reincarnation an endless loop, if it was being done on a "reward and punishment" system? Whomever is "doing unto others" as it was done unto them, will have to pay for it next time; it would never end. People would just keep trading places as perp and victim. I have come to understand karma as the sum total of our experiences and what we have learned from them.

No, you can get out of it by changing yourself and your mistakes. So if karma and reincarnation are muttered of as new age,(easy escapism of not understanding concepts) I'm curious what some know/believe? Standard religions? Or everything is fine when you die, wheter good or bad, now that is new age what most believe.
Fact is, that most are still trapped in atheism and fundamental religions.

[lordzoma]

I'm not trying to be offensive here. I have often wondered why some people are unlucky enough to be born into a crippled body.

Is it because they have done very bad things in a previous life? Is this a form of spiritual punishment and learning?

If you really do reap what you sow, and what comes around goes around, then the answer to this must be yes.

Karma does not exist. It is a control method, the same as believing in heaven or hell and being concerned with a form of judgement.

The only karma is INSTANT KARMA.

Touch a flame, get burned. Instant Karma.

People get born disabled because the name of the game is experience. If you need to learn a lesson in your incarnation that involves having a physical handicap, then you will go through that life experiencing the handicap.

So many people are so caught up in how shitty they have it, when the simple reality is that they are like that for the sole reason of experience. In the end, it's just the physical body. It's the spirit that is eternal, the body is but a vessel and tool. When you're done with one you cast it aside for another.

[marpat]

Wouldn't that make reincarnation an endless loop, if it was being done on a "reward and punishment" system? Whomever is "doing unto others" as it was done unto them, will have to pay for it next time; it would never end. People would just keep trading places as perp and victim. I have come to understand karma as the sum total of our experiences and what we have learned from them.


Well it is suppose to be an endless loop isnt it, like the universe. To escape from the wheel you have to transcend it. Usually the method advocated for this is to do good without wishing for anything in return. In this way you remove any bad karma but you do no become attached to getting good karma back.

The thing is with vctim and perp is that they can both break the cycle by an act of will. Each of them can choose their actions and reactions. If the victim chooses to forgive rather than tale revenge then they are breaking that cycle. Karmic patterns can be undone with acts of will.

What you are now is the sum of you experience. You karma will reflect the condition you meet in your life. Some of them are within your control some are not. Another explanation for karma is cause and effect.

[marpat]

Lol...

New age bollocks indeed!

Well I think you are being negative for no reason. Karma is not new age bollocks. It is an integral part of several religions and mystical system going back to antiquity so how can it be new age bollocks?

Indeed you can think what you like but to try and make out that the subject is something that people have only been aware of since the 60's is just wrong.

[lordzoma]

Well it is suppose to be an endless loop isnt it, like the universe. To escape from the wheel you have to transcend it. Usually the method advocated for this is to do good without wishing for anything in return. In this way you remove any bad karma but you do no become attached to getting good karma back.

The thing is with vctim and perp is that they can both break the cycle by an act of will. Each of them can choose their actions and reactions. If the victim chooses to forgive rather than tale revenge then they are breaking that cycle. Karmic patterns can be undone with acts of will.

What you are now is the sum of you experience. You karma will reflect the condition you meet in your life. Some of them are within your control some are not. Another explanation for karma is cause and effect.

Let me be as clear as possible on this.

The concept that in order to transcend the GAME that is the incarnational loop, you have to do good, is complete LIGHTSIDER BULLSHIT.

Everyone playing the game is going to graduate when their time comes NO MATTER WHAT.

In this game there are no losers. Everyone, even the most game addicted of them all, the Reptilians, will graduate eventually. If they don't do it by the time this galaxy is destroyed they'll do it in the next galaxy that they'd incarnate in afterwards.

Victim mentality is DEFINITELY a trap. Break that cycle and you'll advance farther, but being stuck on doing good for others for the sole purpose of doing good is a trap in and of itself.

Beings are split up into two groups - Service to Self, and Service to Others. Neither is better than the other. They are simply both two ways of experiencing the universe. They're polarities. Go high enough up and neither exists anymore, they just blend together. Doing good and bad are illusions. Take the experience and learn from it, and don't be afraid of karma. It's bs.

[element]

Beings are split up into two groups - Service to Self, and Service to Others. Neither is better than the other. They are simply both two ways of experiencing the universe. They're polarities. Go high enough up and neither exists anymore, they just blend together. Doing good and bad are illusions. Take the experience and learn from it, and don't be afraid of karma. It's bs.

Service to Self is service to others. Change yourself first, then you can help others effectively. How do you want to help or teach when you have not been helped or teached yourself? There are only two groups, Self and ego. ''Service to self, or service to others'' is illusion.

[lordzoma]

Yes element, they are the same thing, and are both illusions, just like power.

That's what I meant when I said they blend together.

here's an interesting little page on STS and STO

http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=883

I believe what you were saying element ties in with this excerpt:

"STO is balance because you serve self through others. […] STO is balance. STS is imbalance. […] STO flows outward and touches all including point of origin, STS flows inward and touches only origin point.'

This is why the terms are sometimes defined as service to self through serving others (STO) or serving others through serving the self (STS). Or as Ra puts it, worshiping God in self or worshiping God in creation, all service is thus of the One in the end. See Cassiopaea transcripts for much more. "

But I think that's bullshit. I wouldn't trust anything a Cassiopaean had to say to me as far as I could throw them. They have an AGENDA, and so does anyone else who says they're from another alien group.

If they know they're aliens, they're Sequentials, and have some sort of agenda in messing with you.

STO or STS it doesn't even matter. It's just parts of the game and, like illusions, will disappear and become meaningless when you graduate.

[kblood]

I dont believe you have to choose between STS or STO. To live a full life, you ought to do both moderately.

As for karma, it does have some undeniable truth to it, although the degree of it might be questionable. The way I see the world, there is so many ways for karma to operate and be real. The most obvious ones are:

If you kill people, steal stuff, destroy stuff, lie, cheat etc. you are likely to have people dislike you and might get punished for it in one way or the other.

If you treat your body or the enviroment badly, you are like to notice the karmic backslash it makes unless you do something about it.

Treating everything and everyone with respect and maybe even love, is more likely to be rewarded. Its the most sure way of earning the respect from others in my oppinion.

Still I also believe that like the manmade law and rules, karma can be avoided to some extend. Also I dont believe bad karma can lead to being born disabled. Then again, maybe it is a good lesson to those who might have been some elitist self absorbed egomaniac to live a life without legs or something like that, I just wouldnt think of it as justice. But then I dont decide.

[lordzoma]

Don't mistake Karma for cause and effect.

Cause: You kill five people in a bank robbery.

Effect: You're fucking arrested.

It's not karma, it's a natural progression of events.

Ultimately, the control concept of Karma is to put fear into someone by saying live a certain way or else you will be punished in a future life.

If you're born disabled it's for the experience, not as some punishment for being an evil prick in a past life.

[element]

If you're born disabled it's for the experience, not as some punishment for being an evil prick in a past life.

How would you know?

If you insult handicapped people your whole life, and do not get arrested etc. there is no cause and effect as you say it. But you think you'll get away with it after? It's not only the material effects that matter.

[marpat]

Let me be as clear as possible on this.

The concept that in order to transcend the GAME that is the incarnational loop, you have to do good, is complete LIGHTSIDER BULLSHIT.

Everyone playing the game is going to graduate when their time comes NO MATTER WHAT.

In this game there are no losers. Everyone, even the most game addicted of them all, the Reptilians, will graduate eventually. If they don't do it by the time this galaxy is destroyed they'll do it in the next galaxy that they'd incarnate in afterwards.

Victim mentality is DEFINITELY a trap. Break that cycle and you'll advance farther, but being stuck on doing good for others for the sole purpose of doing good is a trap in and of itself.

Beings are split up into two groups - Service to Self, and Service to Others. Neither is better than the other. They are simply both two ways of experiencing the universe. They're polarities. Go high enough up and neither exists anymore, they just blend together. Doing good and bad are illusions. Take the experience and learn from it, and don't be afraid of karma. It's bs.

You do good to get good back but to get betond the cycle you have to be indifferent to what you get back in your life, good or bad. This will cause you to stop reacting to situations which inturn then generate more cause and effect.

So you are trying to say that effects do not follow causes? that is all karma is, cause and effect.

Victim mentality is a trap but how does that come into things? a person gets stuck like this because they condition themselves to think there is nothing they can do in their lives. Victims refuse to take control of their lives because of lack of will.

How is self service no better than serving others? if a person decides only to do things in their life which are good for themselves regardless of the effect on others then are they equal to a person who strives to help others, to make time for other people, to consider other people? I think not.

[marpat]

Don't mistake Karma for cause and effect.

Cause: You kill five people in a bank robbery.

Effect: You're fucking arrested.

It's not karma, it's a natural progression of events.

Ultimately, the control concept of Karma is to put fear into someone by saying live a certain way or else you will be punished in a future life.

If you're born disabled it's for the experience, not as some punishment for being an evil prick in a past life.

But karma could have created the situation in which the person decided to rob a bank. Perhaps the lesson they should have learned is that money is not everything and taking it from others is not good but instead they rob a bank.

I think you are thinking in too superficial terms.

[phonicboom]

If you're born disabled it's for the experience, not as some punishment for being an evil prick in a past life.

Yeah I would say similar in that a guy with leprosy in india could well have been a very very well developed person in a past life and chose, deliberately, to try life in a tougher role this time round as some kind of challenge to themselves.

I always wanted to return as a water buffalo :D

[lordzoma]

Yeah I would say similar in that a guy with leprosy in india could well have been a very very well developed person in a past life and chose, deliberately, to try life in a tougher role this time round as some kind of challenge to themselves.

I always wanted to return as a water buffalo :D

Just to be clear here

People incarnating along the simultaneous path, namely, people who don't remember their past lives and are on a track of spiritual evolution

NEVER, I repeat, NEVER, incarnate as anything other than human. You don't suddenly incarnate as an animal after being a human. It doesn't happen.

This belief of being able to reincarnate as animals, comes from animal spirits who have incarnated as humans. There are so many people alive today that there are more people than are necessary for the simultaneousers to get the experience they need out of life. The soul group for all these extra people have to come from somewhere, and that place is the nature spirit, and the animal kingdom.

There's a name for people who have the souls of animals - Minions.

Some people put the number as high as 80% of the total population are minions.

And here you were wondering who the flag waving jesusonites were.

[phonicboom]

I am the entire universe and right now I am you and me and a water buffalo plus an infinite other life forms. I have died infinite deaths and been born infinite times. I am my environment and the experiences thereof.

I just came to add a little to your point as I though you were having fun here :D I know that the one you are is an illusion so the ability for it to reform is an illusion too. While I know the ground of all being has been every form, and will be every other that ever come (and in that way reincarnates by changing form for the fun of it) I just came to add to your point of the idea of someone choosing to reincarnate as something else was a fun one. Plus it disagrees with the idea that karma is something that we carry and suffer / get rewarded by which is just a poor Christianisation of Vedanta - where in fact karma simply means action, and all is action.

So yeah I was agreeing with your initial point but disagree totally with you taking it literally and telling me what I can and can't reincarnate as when in fact I am all that is and has ever been ;)

[lordzoma]

I am the entire universe and right now I am you and me and a water buffalo plus an infinite other life forms. I have died infinite deaths and been born infinite times. I am my environment and the experiences thereof.

I just came to add a little to your point as I though you were having fun here :D I know that the one you are is an illusion so the ability for it to reform is an illusion too. While I know the ground of all being has been every form, and will be every other that ever come (and in that way reincarnates by changing form for the fun of it) I just came to add to your point of the idea of someone choosing to reincarnate as something else was a fun one. Plus it disagrees with the idea that karma is something that we carry and suffer / get rewarded by which is just a poor Christianisation of Vedanta - where in fact karma simply means action, and all is action.

So yeah I was agreeing with your initial point but disagree totally with you taking it literally and telling me what I can and can't reincarnate as when in fact I am all that is and has ever been ;)

Fail.

You can't reincarnate as anything other than human until you graduate, no matter how much infinite universe bs you toss around. There are rules to this game, and if you're here, you're playing by them.

[phonicboom]

Fail.

You can't reincarnate as anything other than human until you graduate, no matter how much infinite universe bs you toss around. There are rules to this game, and if you're here, you're playing by them.

that is an argument? well yes it's an argument, and so I have no interest in taking part in it as it is not a discussion. You set in your ways are quite obviously caught in karma :)

if you saw from my perspective you would smile an float on by. your rules are bondage :)

good luck in your game, I am going to make some tea.

[lordzoma]

Oh, sorry, I thought you were IN THIS GALAXY.

Nevermind.

[krakhead]

Fail.

You can't reincarnate as anything other than human until you graduate, no matter how much infinite universe bs you toss around. There are rules to this game, and if you're here, you're playing by them.

You seem very sure of yourself! Have you ever considered you may be wrong?

[nimlyn]

Karma clause No 22…Any soul with a significant grievance against destiny shall have the heavenly authority to pluck a Guardian Angel silly…:D

Darned it! I’ve been conned, those Angels don’t have wings…Wait! This isn’t heaven it’s hell…Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!:(

Seriously though! My answer to the initial question is simply No! :)

[element]

I don't think it enters the mind of Karma believers... it would make them realise that they simply lack compassion for people who suffer! ;) :)

That's not the point at all. Help, change yourself and others, and there will be solutions. I don't think we should be fully absorbed in materialistic thinking. Why are some born in royalty and others in the street? That's not just biological isn't it. If you believe/know the soul, then what would be your explanation of getting in certain situations?;)

[element]

Not at all. I agree with that. The point is karma is not only negative. If you have the possibility to help someone, you should ofcourse! I don't know anyone who blindly says 'karma'. Those people don't understand the concept and their own negative thoughts and deeds will create karma for themself. That's the point.

[w1nstonsm1th84]

Not at all. I agree with that. The point is karma is not only negative. If you have the possibility to help someone, you should ofcourse! I don't know anyone who blindly says 'karma'...

Okay, sorry; I think I misinterpreted what you wrote!

Yes, I always try to help people; unfortunately they don't always accept the offer of help, but that is their business. There are people who say that paraplegic people (for example) chose to experience that condition, and I find that kind of thinking to be abhorrent.

Saying that it is 'karmic debt' (with no tangible, concrete proof) is pretty inhumane, in my opinion. :)

[element]

Saying that it is 'karmic debt' (with no tangible, concrete proof) is pretty inhumane, in my opinion. :)

Well yeah, it ain't nice. But to understand and answer such concepts one has to start with ''what is the soul'', or find out ''do I have a soul''. If the spiritual part of us is always there, not dieing etc. it means it only changes shape, To learn and experience more and more until you reach enlightenment, and higher states of consciousness. (Some might disagree, but then be happy with the classic heaven/hell stories I'd say.) What comes around goes around, if you kill me this life, it does not mean I will kill you after. I could just mean you'll have to sacrifice yourself for me the next life, to save me. Just one example, don't worry Winston. :D I don't think it's always the same you kill-I kill backfiring. This way even the worst leaders and torturers with huge karma might become 'saviours' to pay their sins. This is much more helpful for humanity, then if that criminal has to incarnate a 10 million times, because he killed that amount.

I would never tell someone in person ''it's your karma'', when I don't even know that person inside and past life etc. Neither do I want to.

The only thing we can and must do imo is change ourself for the better. The closest way, but it's the toughest.

[lordzoma]

::Coughs.::

Karma doesn't exist. It's a control concept meant to keep you in line.

It doesn't matter what you do, or how you do it, you will always get to where you need to get to, and you will always graduate.

Most people would incarnate around ten thousand times, maybe more or less.

Saying you need to do good in order to better yourself is lightsider bullshit.

You learn just as much from being 'good' as you do from being 'evil.'

Doing evil doesn't mean you'll get punished, and doing good doesn't mean you'll get rewarded. You are where you are because that's where you need to be. Enjoy.

[phonicboom]

::Coughs.::

Karma doesn't exist. It's a control concept meant to keep you in line.

It doesn't matter what you do, or how you do it, you will always get to where you need to get to, and you will always graduate.

Most people would incarnate around ten thousand times, maybe more or less.

Saying you need to do good in order to better yourself is lightsider bullshit.

You learn just as much from being 'good' as you do from being 'evil.'

Doing evil doesn't mean you'll get punished, and doing good doesn't mean you'll get rewarded. You are where you are because that's where you need to be. Enjoy.

You have an interesting argument and you look for balance. Yet you are so busy arguing that you miss how many people agree with you and continue to argue :)

You must accept that with nearly 7 billion people on earth and you saying "good is ok bad is ok" that there will be 7 billion versions of "the truth" and that if you sit around arguing the finer points then your role in life will be to have missed it all whilst being busy debating it.

Also you discount karma, but you discount your interpretation of karma. In it's purest form karma is simply "action" - you discount karma yet really you are discounting the popular belief people have of karma these days - which is right, that they have it wrong but "karma" as action is impossible to discount, as action is something so built in to life that they the word karma was made to describe it. So action is real but the interpretation you are arguing does not exist, does not exist and there you are right.

Yet you have still a little baggage talking of a "game" and "many lives to live" - they are still baggage from the misinterpretation of karma as debt/reward. Living that way is to be in bondage, so no matter how far you think you are in realising the modern take on karma is incorrect, you still carry some of the ropes with you.

i'm not here to argue just point you that, while correct in most of this, your balance point has not yet been found :)

When you think you have it, you don't.

read this guy http://www.weiwuwei.8k.com/bits.html

peace

[xpleet]

The answer to the original post is yes,

karmic debt is punished through reincarnation in horrible bodies.


People need to stop thinking that we create our own reality through our beliefs, it is a frantic idea and trap in itself, that effectively makes truthseekers forget the true valuable of seeking the absolute truth.

Disbelief in Karma doesn't make it go away, it is still part of the "interdimensional government" that is as evil as what we have here on Earth. Instead of disbelieve, choose denial. Do what your heart feels right, not to earn karmic merrit points, the evil system and it's creators will soon disappear into nothingness.

[phonicboom]

The answer to the original post is yes,

karmic debt is punished through reincarnation in horrible bodies.


People need to stop thinking that we create our own reality through our beliefs, it is a frantic idea and trap in itself, that effectively makes truthseekers forget the true valuable of seeking the absolute truth.

Disbelief in Karma doesn't make it go away, it is still part of the "interdimensional government" that is as evil as what we have here on Earth. Instead of disbelieve, choose denial. Do what your heart feels right, not to earn karmic merrit points, the evil system and it's creators will soon disappear into nothingness.

pah, that is about as smart a notion as a dog lover who puts locks a dog in a box for farting.

[lordzoma]

This isn't an argument, and I don't care who agrees with me or not.

I'm just putting the information out there because no one else is saying it.

Call karma whatever you want to, and explain it away anyway you like.

The bottom line is that what you do in this life, will not affect what you do in another life, save that next time, you will be one step higher in the spiritual ladder.

[phonicboom]

The bottom line is that what you do in this life, will not affect what you do in another life, save that next time, you will be one step higher in the spiritual ladder.

you don't see the contradiction here?

you say;

"what you do in this life, will not affect what you do in another life"

and then

"next time, you will be one step higher in the spiritual ladder"

erm, I have a question, no wait, a statement "that is a blatant contradiction Sir" :)

[lordzoma]

The point, is that it doesn't matter what you do.

No matter what, you gain experience from a life lived. You grow.

Choices and perceptions are only those of that individual life. Regarding a choice as positive or negative, is polarity based. Thinking that a positive choice will have a positive outcome, or a negative choice will have a negative outcome, in regards to what your next life will be, is polarity based, and simply not true.

Do whatever you want, and live your life from whatever level you are at.

No matter what, your next life is one step higher in your path of spiritual progression.

And when you have lived enough lives, and have grown enough, you are simply done, and will no longer reincarnate.

If you don't 'finish' by the time this planetary experience is over, you will finish on another planet.

If you don't 'finish' by the time this galaxy experience is over, like the game addicted orions, you will incarnate in another galaxy with absolutely no memory of lives lived in the previous one. A blank slate for sequentials, in the same sense that simultaneous reincarnators have a blank slate in each life. Only it's not completely blank. Experiences and memories while not accessible to the individual life, are held and kept by your higher self, the sum of your consciousness in a higher dimension, until you are finished.

When you graduate, all of the lives you lived and all of those memories will flood back to you, and you will be complete. Until then, each individual incarnation after it dies, lives on consciously in a level of the astral designated by its own individual spiritual level of advancement. Whether that be a hell, a heaven, a purgatory, an elysium field, or the park on level 27.

[phonicboom]

I see agreement and contradiction i your ideas. I have other points I would like to add but feel my best choice is to step out of this conversation :)

[lordzoma]

Or you could do further research on them.

such as segments and excerpts found here

http://www.cco.net/~trufax/matrix5/excerpts/
http://www.cco.net/~trufax/matrix5/segments/

Or by checking out Matrix V at Trufax.org.

[phonicboom]

I'm not dropping out of the conversation for any other reason than I find the case you are making has fundamental flaws and your way to cover them is to continually repeat the points. Can you make your case in a way that is not flawed? Then maybe I can find something in it. For now these ideas have nothing in them but reworks of other ideas that come to no beneficial conclusion.

[phonicboom]

PS some of my thoughts (http://chriswilshaw.info/tao-thoughts.html) not necessarily true but places my mind has been on some journeys including after i had a NDE or more accurately DE.

[lordzoma]

I think what you're asking me to do is to go into super depth about the nature of reincarnation and the meaning behind simultaneous / sequential reincarnation and what a higher self is. You can pretty much figure out the basics from those excerpts segments links I just posted, and everything is in the 3 M5 books, but I'll gladly bat out things a little bit more in depth at another time. Of course, if you really, REALLY want to understand what I was saying, do the research. I pointed out to you where it came from. Don't take it from me. If you were really interested you know where to go. ^_^

And if you want the other matrix books, I-IV, check out the M5 thread I made. It has a link as how to download them for free from the internet.

[lizzy]

reincarnation is the biggest control hoax played on humanity.......don't tell me the crippled, abused, starved and war victims led bad past lives.......

.......'what comes around, goes around',applies to THIS life not the next....

and I am so grateful I do not believe b/c I for one do not want to come back .

[phonicboom]

yeah Izzy, this is like the Heaven Hell lie but more contrived. Works to the same end and is a pure control mechanism.

Thing is that this guy is denying it in part but not realizing he is still trapped in part too.

Oh well, maybe he will learn next time :D (thats sarcasm BTW america)

[xpleet]

pah, that is about as smart a notion as a dog lover who puts locks a dog in a box for farting.

i really feel sorry for you.

[lordzoma]

Reincarnation is reality.

Saying it's a control hoax?

Big surprise coming from someone named LIZzy.

Reptilians are sequentials, and remember all of their past lives. Of course they would be the ones the most afraid of dying, because they've been in the same unbroken consciousness for so long, it would be ridiculously hard to give that up.

And that's exactly what is given up for every sequential that chooses to go simultaneous.

It's not a cycle of do good or do bad, or else (anything). You just do. Experience. Once you go simultaneous you'll soon be done. Ten thousand reincarnations. Around ten thousand years of modern civilization.

The Sequentials, like most LIZZYS, have been around for billions of years, and will still be around billions of years from now, once we're all done.

[phonicboom]

go on explain that one :) ....

EDIT that is to xpleet

[element]

::Coughs.::

Karma doesn't exist. It's a control concept meant to keep you in line.

It doesn't matter what you do, or how you do it, you will always get to where you need to get to, and you will always graduate.

Most people would incarnate around ten thousand times, maybe more or less.

Saying you need to do good in order to better yourself is lightsider bullshit.

You learn just as much from being 'good' as you do from being 'evil.'

Doing evil doesn't mean you'll get punished, and doing good doesn't mean you'll get rewarded. You are where you are because that's where you need to be. Enjoy.

Pointless rubbish. Very atheistic and material spoken. Everything is recorded, by your spirit.

reincarnation is the biggest control hoax played on humanity.......don't tell me the crippled, abused, starved and war victims led bad past lives.......

.......'what comes around, goes around',applies to THIS life not the next....

and I am so grateful I do not believe b/c I for one do not want to come back .

Brilliant. And what do you believe? Basic heaven and hell? Only a happy place to learn, you're either very New Agish or traditional christian/muslim/jew view on things. I'll be waiting...

[lilavati]

Srila Prabhupada compared good and bad karma to wet and dry stool.that means that even good karma will bind us to this material world of illusion:eek:

[phonicboom]

Srila Prabhupada compared good and bad karma to wet and dry stool.that means that even good karma will bind us to this material world of illusion:eek:

well yes, any belief in the 'reality' of life or anything in it, is bondage. So giving life such deep importance as to affect a future coming of yourself is extremely deep bondage as you are giving such importance to a thing that in fact has no reality.

[w1nstonsm1th84]

This is all conjecture and hypothesis, where's your proof?

Seriously, where's the tangible, and irrefutable evidence...? :-/

[element]

This is all conjecture and hypothesis, where's your proof?

Seriously, where's the tangible, and irrefutable evidence...? :-/

Where's the tangible irrefutable evidence for reptilians, your soul, spirituality, god, conspiracy etc etc. We could go on and on.

Can you even proof your thoughts, feelings, dreams, oobes, what not to us? They can't be scientifically proven, because that demands material physical proof, but the thing is, it is NOT material. So the conclusion is, we all got to find it out ourself. Self experience is the real evidence. We can however, theorize about it and karma is a logical concept imo.

[phonicboom]

This is all conjecture and hypothesis, where's your proof?

Seriously, where's the tangible, and irrefutable evidence...? :-/

who are you asking?

[w1nstonsm1th84]

who are you asking?

Any 'Karmic Debt' adherent, who wishes to answer...

[phonicboom]

Any 'Karmic Debt' adherent, who wished to answer...

ah ok ;)

I'm very much not your man then.

[mr_pixie]

Everything happens for a reason.

Maybe or mabe not? I'm not sure about this? :eek:

[phonicboom]

Where's the tangible irrefutable evidence for reptilians, your soul, spirituality, god, conspiracy etc etc. We could go on and on.

Can you even proof your thoughts, feelings, dreams, oobes, what not to us? They can't be scientifically proven, because that demands material physical proof, but the thing is, it is NOT material. So the conclusion is, we all got to find it out ourself. Self experience is the real evidence. We can however, theorize about it and karma is a logical concept imo.

Maybe David Icke can help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBJKCz6Xhzs

.

[lordzoma]

Where's the tangible irrefutable evidence for reptilians, your soul, spirituality, god, conspiracy etc etc. We could go on and on.

Can you even proof your thoughts, feelings, dreams, oobes, what not to us? They can't be scientifically proven, because that demands material physical proof, but the thing is, it is NOT material. So the conclusion is, we all got to find it out ourself. Self experience is the real evidence. We can however, theorize about it and karma is a logical concept imo.

This is the smartest thing I've seen you write yet. Four stars.

Self experience is the real evidence. Yes. Anything else is taken on faith, and faiths, like beliefs, have a tendency to defend themselves.

The real problems occur when one is unsure about their own self experiences. Every single person who has ever been subject to mind control is aware of this. On one level we all are, when we are indoctrinated into living on this planet in this body. But then again, that's what experience is all about. ^_^

[lizzy]

yeah Izzy, this is like the Heaven Hell lie but more contrived. Works to the same end and is a pure control mechanism.

Thing is that this guy is denying it in part but not realizing he is still trapped in part too.

Oh well, maybe he will learn next time :D (thats sarcasm BTW america)

yes phonicboom,

the same can be said for the caste system,......all control to keep the herds' neatly in their places, never to rise from the squalour at the bottom, which is where the NWO want the majority of us back too.

........to believe that human beings live lives of pain and suffering b/c of past life behaviour allows the NWO , one religion with this concept , to turn away from caring b/c that individual does'nt deserve it..........it is perfect for these satanic psyhcopaths who rule.

[emptiness]

Basically, yes. Everything in your life has connection to your karma.

Look at it this way:

If one embraces mindstreams of hate, anger, violence, and so on, the presence of these especially salient mental patterns in the mind stream will fruit and bear their effects in future lives. Think of yourself, especially in the barely-conscious stages of your initial bodily development, making the entire world, including your body, out of the most familiar and prominent parts of your eternal mindstream (as well as many parts you are unfamiliar with). In this way, we can see that deformations, health problems, and other such things are all karmically caused. These are things that violent and angry mindstreams will, simply because thats the way the universe works, pull out and slap you with in future lives. It's not punishment, it's causation. Whether one deserves it or not isn't even part of the question; it is JUST HOW THE UNIVERSE WORKS. It's no different for people who live "good lives." Mindstreams of generosity, compassion, and peace will naturally build themselves nice, healthy, beautiful, and radiant bodies in future lives.

Unfortunately, because of ignorance, most people who are born into these healthy, beautiful, and radiant bodies too often get distracted by all the bright lights and enjoyments of their life and ultimately end up going right back down to crappier lives to learn all the same lessons over again for the ten trillionth time.

Mindstreams, thus, are live waves. Up and down, up and down, up and down... wandering through endless samsara for all eternity.

[element]

Classic heaven and hell, surrendering to the avatar have been the main tools for those in control, and still are. Beliefs in reincarnation and karma are much older.
And I agree with you there emptiness. It's always the same thing, people don't want to take responsibility for their lives, just blame it on this or that. And they are just drinking and eating and bickering behind their pc's. It's a joke!