The Freemason Forum

[revelations]

I have just come across this (masonic) forum so i thought id post the link here, i havent read any of their post's yet ...but im going to. :D

MASONIC FORUM: http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/forum.asp?forum_id=2

[auron]

Then you'll go and "fuck em' up", as your avatar suggests?? :D

[revelations]

Ive just signed up. :D
Then you'll go and "fuck em' up", as your avatar suggests?? :D

[revelations]

Well ...come on guys come and join me at the MASONIC FORUM ...I could do with some support here, or are you all pussy's? :rolleyes:

[lennart]

I once saw this documantary where they followed of few guys who wanted to be freemasons. It was all about freethinking... but the reporter keeps questioning and when you watch it it was obvious....most of them actually hoped to gain financial profit out of it somehow...and ofcourse it made them look interesting.

They don,t even know what the ritual is to end up as a freemason. How ignorant can you be....taking part in a ritual and not knowing what it does or is....really....so sad!

[manchurian_candidate]

Well ...come on guys come and join me at the MASONIC FORUM ...I could do with some support here, or are you all pussy's? :rolleyes:

I will have a look tomorrow as I am off home from work now :)

I see you have already made a start 'chatting' to those masons!! :D:D

[stealth]

Well ...come on guys come and join me at the MASONIC FORUM ...I could do with some support here, or are you all pussy's? :rolleyes:

meeeeooow.:D

[lenejento]

I will probably post an article there, it will be interesting, although I don't really think these mason posting are high ups, and are probably joining because they think they are doing a good thing or that it will help them in business. Seems like they're quite ignorant on what their order is all about.

I will probably write an article about the nature of control, the law of impermanence and the eternal moment/truth.

[revelations]

Join the thread:D http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=6635

[basbas13]

I found some good news on that forum!! :D

http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=6502

[gordonfreeman]

I have a nearby Masonic Lodge Temple in Alhambra. Join there as well guys. ;)

[91181]

This is gonna be fun, im going in william cooper style wish me luck guys ...:D

[revelations]

see you there ...good luck! ;)This is gonna be fun, im going in william cooper style wish me luck guys ...:D

[razed1]

i thought this thread was gonna be about the abovetopsecret.com forums

theres a dis-info board if i ever saw one

:D

[titurel]

Show them this Monty Python sketch... "The Job Interview":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2lbBhZ167A

[tinmenace]

I found some good news on that forum!! :D

http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=6502

Yep their time is up. Time to pack the cocks away :D

[siscid]

I found some good news on that forum!! :D

http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=6502

Yeah I just read that post, seems interesting. But then again they could all be hiding in the "dungeon of doom" or whatever they like to call it these day's.

Siscid

[motox]

Join the thread http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/to...?topic_id=6635

[motox]

Join the thread:D http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=6635

THIS ONE MIGHT WORK THESE GUYS ARE REALLY SLAGGING DI WORK OFF

[motox]

THIS ONE MIGHT WORK THESE GUYS ARE REALLY SLAGGING DI WORK OFF

COME ON GUYS IS ANYONE HELPING ME OUT ON THIS ONE I HAVE THE USER NAME SHEEPLE ON THE FREEMASON FORUM NOT QUITE UPTO THERE WAY OF WORDS

[titurel]

Join the thread http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/to...?topic_id=6635
Can you please fix the link? Thanks!

[titurel]

It's okay... I worked it out...

http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6635&whichpage=3

[revelations]

Check out these Masonic freaks ...slagging off this website and its users! :rolleyes:
http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=6637

[coshh]

Check out these Masonic freaks ...slagging off this website and its users! :rolleyes:
http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=6637

That's how the rest of society sees you. ;)

[manchurian_candidate]

That's how the rest of society sees you. ;)

HAHA! Sadly, that is true! :D

[peachped]

Expect an influx of trolls by the looks of things :rolleyes:

[revelations]

Thats just what I was thinking. :DExpect an influx of trolls by the looks of things :rolleyes:

[manchurian_candidate]

That's how the rest of society sees you. ;)

HAHA! Sadly, that is true! :D:cool:

[celtic isis]

I once saw this documantary where they followed of few guys who wanted to be freemasons. It was all about freethinking... but the reporter keeps questioning and when you watch it it was obvious....most of them actually hoped to gain financial profit out of it somehow...and ofcourse it made them look interesting.

They don,t even know what the ritual is to end up as a freemason. How ignorant can you be....taking part in a ritual and not knowing what it does or is....really....so sad!

in fairness, i've had someone close to me just become a master, the rituals aren't as sexy as you may imagine lol but the little apron thing and sash they wear when 7 years old are sexy! and so kool (if a little freaky) they're reversible, so if a mason dies they wear it the other way round to the usual way and it has separate embroidery to boot...

lol good luck at the forums, i may even join myself! i doubt they'll be saying much though...you do know that masons have secret passwords so that they can access levels of various sites that we can't access.

masons know stuff, at the end of the day it varies between lodge to lodge, country to country in how much business goes on in them (namely in the britain the most business connections and back handing taking place) but yeah they are all brothers after all...next time i can go to the lodge i'll be brave and actually go ;)

[celtic isis]

Check out these Masonic freaks ...slagging off this website and its users! :rolleyes:
http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=6637

NO way! ok now it really is PERSONAL!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

this guy's post is quite respectful though...

I would suggest these Guys do their homework and check out Freemasonry Watch. David's original web haunt, they tried the same thing.

David Icke has some interesting things to say, he does not have evidence to back up most of it, in my opinion, but nevertheless he does have some original thoughts.

Interesting to read that forum where , no one here is very high up and we are only interested in promoting our own business. Well what's wrong with that.

I used to be a window cleaner, now that quite high up.


mind you you're not supposed to be in freemasonry to openly and actively peddle your business exploits around lol they all know that that's what you're there for but you don't have to admit it lol


:rolleyes:

[tinmenace]

Ah great :rolleyes: Now we're going to have a bunch of Freemason cocks all around the forum and one big flame war. Not cool at all. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif

[revelations]

Good! Maybe we can ENLIGHTEN them. Even if we get just 1 Mason to realise what they are involved in it'll be worth it! :cool:Ah great :rolleyes: Now we're going to have a bunch of Freemason cocks all around the forum and one big flame war. Not cool at all. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif

[manchurian_candidate]

Good! Maybe we can ENLIGHTEN them. Even if we get just 1 Mason to realise what they are involved in it'll be worth it! :cool:

I agree, it looks like they are planning an attack beware of users with low post counts!!! :D:D

We'll convert them!!! ;);)... if not then I am going ahead with my plan to spray paint my nearest lodge with David's web address on!!!

[bigus_dickus]

sheep vs sheep = all sheep dead

[celtic isis]

Ah great :rolleyes: Now we're going to have a bunch of Freemason cocks all around the forum and one big flame war. Not cool at all. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif







i know the feeling tinmenace, mind you they seem quite stuffy, they wouldn't lower themselves to come here people like that.

At least some freemasons read icke, or at least respect him slightly. But yeha i don't want them all coming here either! it's bad enough with the christian cult members lol

[celtic isis]

Good! Maybe we can ENLIGHTEN them. Even if we get just 1 Mason to realise what they are involved in it'll be worth it! :cool:

aww you're so positive i love it, but don't get your hopes up too much, they're already snared in the web.

[mr_flibble]

I have to say that I`m disappointed.

Is it the moral high ground that allows you to go trolling?

Why is it ok for you to do it there, yet its assumed to be a bad thing to do it here.Grow up.If you want to learn from their forum (which you can) that can`t be a bad thing.

Do unto others...

[revelations]

Here we go, that didnt take long ...heres the 1st MASON! :eek::DI have to say that I`m disappointed.

Is it the moral high ground that allows you to go trolling?

Why is it ok for you to do it there, yet its assumed to be a bad thing to do it here.Grow up.If you want to learn from their forum (which you can) that can`t be a bad thing.

Do unto others...

[mr_flibble]

No.Not a freemason.

Just a thinking human.

[lookfar]

Oh FFS as if we need any more trolls around here & mason ones at that, jeez!!!:rolleyes::(

[manchurian_candidate]

Oh FFS as if we need any more trolls around here & mason ones at that, jeez!!!:rolleyes::(

Here here Lookfar!!! :D

[celtic isis]

I have to say that I`m disappointed.

Is it the moral high ground that allows you to go trolling?

Why is it ok for you to do it there, yet its assumed to be a bad thing to do it here.Grow up.If you want to learn from their forum (which you can) that can`t be a bad thing.

Do unto others...

shit i just deleted what i said to mr flibble by accident! i just said i thought you're right. :o

[lookfar]

actually mr fibble is right you know....:o though we wouldn't attack the masons, unlike the trolls that come here and attack us.

Hey celtic honey - I hope you're well :)

I haven't been on their forum so can't say what's going on over there, but I've a feeling that we're gonna get the backlash from it one way or another :(

[bigus_dickus]

I haven't been on their forum so can't say what's going on over there, but I've a feeling that we're gonna get the backlash from it one way or another :(

https://www.compar.com/secure/images/old_lock.jpg then?

[celtic isis]

Hey celtic honey - I hope you're well :)

I haven't been on their forum so can't say what's going on over there, but I've a feeling that we're gonna get the backlash from it one way or another :(

i am well thank you lookfar :) i hope you are too :)

i know, it's more trolls of the religious kind that i'm fed up with at the mo lol
they have to be the worst!

[lennart]

Some people from over here where very rude over there.....it,s not good! It doesn,t help anyone and just creates a lot of hate!

[celtic isis]

Some people from over here where very rude over there.....it,s not good! It doesn,t help anyone and just creates a lot of hate!

it wasn't me lol

:D

you're right we don't need anymore hate that's for sure.

[motox]

Some people from over here where very rude over there.....it,s not good! It doesn,t help anyone and just creates a lot of hate!

CAN I ASK WHO YOU THINK IS BEING RUDE

[lookfar]

Some people from over here where very rude over there.....it,s not good! It doesn,t help anyone and just creates a lot of hate!

Oh that's not good to hear lennart & you're right it does create unnecessary bad feelings :(

There are ways of intelligently putting across your point of view without having to resort to rudeness/insults etc, which just causes upset for all involved. What you give out, you get back, & tbh I'm really not looking forward to dealing with any comebacks that appear on here if/when that happens.

[lennart]

CAN I ASK WHO YOU THINK IS BEING RUDE

You! But actually in a funny way when i look at your posthistory:eek:

Welcome to the forum mate(or mason):D

[motox]

You! But actually in a funny way when i look at your posthistory:eek:

Welcome to the forum mate(or mason):D

defo not a mason mate.i was just looking for answers as to the way i feel about whats going on in the world. something just aint right and this forum seems to have a lot of my answers pretty new to the internet seen and i like what i am seeing. i aint had time to say hello to everyone as soon as the admin let me on. i saw this thred :D straight in at the deep end

[nulltid]

Fanatics!

David Icke is a science fiction writer. The reptoid mythos is an internet joint effort to create an enhanced sensation of paranoia. His novels thrives in the imagination of the reader. Praise the convergence!!!!!

[tinmenace]

Oh FFS as if we need any more trolls around here & mason ones at that, jeez!!!:rolleyes::(

Tell me about it! :rolleyes:

[nulltid]

New Statesman - Interview: David Icke (http://www.newstatesman.com/200803030001)

About 90% of the people who come to me are talking nonsense

[mr_flibble]

There are 2 sides to EVERY story.

[tinmenace]

And one side has been deliberately hidden from humanity for thousands of years...

[i_am]

geez guys!! If you want to troll another forum, don't tell them where you are from and use the same ID.

We need more agro here like a hole in the head!

[smoking oceanus]

This thread is one of the reasons why i hardly interact with conspiracy researchers anymore.

[mr_flibble]

I have been told this too.

I do not assume anything to be true.

I have no interest in changing your mind.How could I when I don`t know the truth ?(yet?;))

If I am certain of everything, how would I ever learn?

[mike martin]

Hi peeps, I'm Mike and i'm a Moderator at the Freemason Forum. I thought I would just drop you a line to let you know that your friends' incursion into our Forum in no way means that we'll be returning the favour. It appears to me that some of your "younger" members perceive us as some kind of foe who will feel attacked and retaliate.

To be deadly honest with you the majority of us have no interest either in David Icke or his theories, even though he has attempted to write Freemasonry into them.

However, we have been more than happy to answer questions from non-Masons about Freemasonry on our Forum for nearly 8 years now and these guys are no different. As long as the rules (ie no rudeness or disruption) of our Forum are observed they won't even be deleted.

So please do try to relax.

Mike

[i_am]

Hi peeps, I'm Mike and i'm a Moderator at the Freemason Forum. I thought I would just drop you a line to let you know that your friends' incursion into our Forum in no way means that we'll be returning the favour. It appears to me that some of your "younger" members perceive us as some kind of foe who will feel attacked and retaliate.

To be deadly honest with you the majority of us have no interest either in David Icke or his theories, even though he has attempted to write Freemasonry into them.

However, we have been more than happy to answer questions from non-Masons about Freemasonry on our Forum for nearly 8 years now and these guys are no different. As long as the rules (ie no rudeness or disruption) of our Forum are observed they won't even be deleted.

So please do try to relax.

Mike

Thanks mike :)

Appreciate you taking the time to post

[grenadene]

Oh crikey.... we are being watched ;)

I'll be keeping my tin foil hat on thank you very much!!!

[nulltid]

Oh crikey.... we are being watched ;)

I'll be keeping my tin foil hat on thank you very much!!!

It is the masons which are subject public scrutiny.

[amason]

Tell me something, why is it that those wishing to beat the crap out of others have these ridiculous names, like 'Avenger' and 'Revelations'. Is this meant to scare people or what?

It's working man! I'm just gonna go hide in the corner and cuddle Solomon my teddy!

[manchurian_candidate]

Tell me something, why is it that those wishing to beat the crap out of others have these ridiculous names, like 'Avenger' and 'Revelations'. Is this meant to scare people or what?

It's working man! I'm just gonna go hide in the corner and cuddle Solomon my teddy!

Can I ask why did you become a mason? What joy do you get out of it? :confused:I mean this as a genuine question. I don't understand the concept fully.

[amason]

Can I ask why did you become a mason? What joy do you get out of it? :confused:I mean this as a genuine question. I don't understand the concept fully.

Okay, you asked a genuine question, I'll give you a genuine answer.

As far as helping me to further my career, help me out of legal difficulties, make my wallet expand, all these and more, it doesn't happen. There have been no occasions when special treatment has helped, period!!

This might sound like some sort of cliche, but I have always lived my life helping others one way or another. I am not a rich man, in the financial sense, I work hard for every penny I get, and most of it is spoken for before I see it. But benevolence was something I was taught at a very early age. I spent the majority of my school years in the care of people dedicated to helping others, and I'm not talking about my parents. The work they did rubbed off on me, and I have spent my life giving something back. Freemasonry is an extension of what I already do in life, a focus if you like. Instead of making donations to charities and then hearing that the donations have gone into admin costs and not to the source it was intended for, I now channel my energies and donations to causes that we know are going to benefit.
It is also a way of meeting others, my friend circle has grown, my social life has improved, my whole outlook on life has improved, but to know about that is another story!

To sum it up, we are a group of like minded 'friends' enjoying one another's company and helping others along the way.

I have read posts here about being brain washed and led, my answer to that is bollo#. I turned down a friends invitation to come and join him on two occasions, because I wasn't ready, I didn't feel the need. When I joined, it was my own decision. I was not pushed in any way. Since joining, I have had no pressure to go further in the heirarchy, I will do it in my own time.

It seems to me, that most of the people knocking Freemasonry have no first hand knowledge of it at all. They are simply echoing the thoughts of antimasons that they have heard about. How can people go around knocking that which they know nothing about.

I hope this answers your question. I am not really a literary type, and I have difficulty in expressing my thoughts in written form.

S and F

[manchurian_candidate]

Okay, you asked a genuine question, I'll give you a genuine answer.

As far as helping me to further my career, help me out of legal difficulties, make my wallet expand, all these and more, it doesn't happen. There have been no occasions when special treatment has helped, period!!

This might sound like some sort of cliche, but I have always lived my life helping others one way or another. I am not a rich man, in the financial sense, I work hard for every penny I get, and most of it is spoken for before I see it. But benevolence was something I was taught at a very early age. I spent the majority of my school years in the care of people dedicated to helping others, and I'm not talking about my parents. The work they did rubbed off on me, and I have spent my life giving something back. Freemasonry is an extension of what I already do in life, a focus if you like. Instead of making donations to charities and then hearing that the donations have gone into admin costs and not to the source it was intended for, I now channel my energies and donations to causes that we know are going to benefit.
It is also a way of meeting others, my friend circle has grown, my social life has improved, my whole outlook on life has improved, but to know about that is another story!

To sum it up, we are a group of like minded 'friends' enjoying one another's company and helping others along the way.

I have read posts here about being brain washed and led, my answer to that is bollo#. I turned down a friends invitation to come and join him on two occasions, because I wasn't ready, I didn't feel the need. When I joined, it was my own decision. I was not pushed in any way. Since joining, I have had no pressure to go further in the heirarchy, I will do it in my own time.

It seems to me, that most of the people knocking Freemasonry have no first hand knowledge of it at all. They are simply echoing the thoughts of antimasons that they have heard about. How can people go around knocking that which they know nothing about.

I hope this answers your question. I am not really a literary type, and I have difficulty in expressing my thoughts in written form.

S and F

Thank you very much for that honest and inciteful answer. I think you expressed yourself perfectly well. Thank you for taking the time to answer my question.

All the best. :)

[tinmenace]

Okay, you asked a genuine question, I'll give you a genuine answer.

As far as helping me to further my career, help me out of legal difficulties, make my wallet expand, all these and more, it doesn't happen. There have been no occasions when special treatment has helped, period!!

This might sound like some sort of cliche, but I have always lived my life helping others one way or another. I am not a rich man, in the financial sense, I work hard for every penny I get, and most of it is spoken for before I see it. But benevolence was something I was taught at a very early age. I spent the majority of my school years in the care of people dedicated to helping others, and I'm not talking about my parents. The work they did rubbed off on me, and I have spent my life giving something back. Freemasonry is an extension of what I already do in life, a focus if you like. Instead of making donations to charities and then hearing that the donations have gone into admin costs and not to the source it was intended for, I now channel my energies and donations to causes that we know are going to benefit.
It is also a way of meeting others, my friend circle has grown, my social life has improved, my whole outlook on life has improved, but to know about that is another story!

To sum it up, we are a group of like minded 'friends' enjoying one another's company and helping others along the way.

I have read posts here about being brain washed and led, my answer to that is bollo#. I turned down a friends invitation to come and join him on two occasions, because I wasn't ready, I didn't feel the need. When I joined, it was my own decision. I was not pushed in any way. Since joining, I have had no pressure to go further in the heirarchy, I will do it in my own time.

It seems to me, that most of the people knocking Freemasonry have no first hand knowledge of it at all. They are simply echoing the thoughts of antimasons that they have heard about. How can people go around knocking that which they know nothing about.

I hope this answers your question. I am not really a literary type, and I have difficulty in expressing my thoughts in written form.

S and F

Hi :)

But why is it so secretive, if it's just a "social" club? Why are women specifically excluded from joining your lodges? And why the rituals? Why the ridiculous rituals and symbols if it's just "a group of like minded 'friends' enjoying one another's company and helping others along the way"?

Being a gentleman's club doesn't explain all those other things. There's more to it, and you, like every other mason I've ever asked, are being dishonest about the true nature of Freemasonry.

[amason]

Hi :)

But why is it so secretive, if it's just a "social" club? Why are women specifically excluded from joining your lodges? And why the rituals? Why the ridiculous rituals and symbols if it's just "a group of like minded 'friends' enjoying one another's company and helping others along the way"?

Being a gentleman's club doesn't explain all those other things. There's more to it, and you, like every other mason I've ever asked, are being dishonest about the true nature of Freemasonry.




If you really want to know the answers to these questions, then try reading the Masonic history books. There is an abundant supply of such on the open internet. They are not all necessarily 'pro' masonry, nor anti masonry.

A lot of the symbols and 'funny handshakes' as you non masons seem to term them, are to do with identification in a time when most men could neither read nor write. To put it in laymans terms, it identified men at certain levels of there working career. The rituals were / are part of this identification process.

As for excluding women, well, that isn't entirely true. There are womens lodges, as well as what we call co-ed lodges where men and women can join and work together.

[manchurian_candidate]

If you really want to know the answers to these questions, then try reading the Masonic history books. There is an abundant supply of such on the open internet. They are not all necessarily 'pro' masonry, nor anti masonry.

A lot of the symbols and 'funny handshakes' as you non masons seem to term them, are to do with identification in a time when most men could neither read nor write. To put it in laymans terms, it identified men at certain levels of there working career. The rituals were / are part of this identification process.

As for excluding women, well, that isn't entirely true. There are womens lodges, as well as what we call co-ed lodges where men and women can join and work together.


Could I ask another question, if you don't mind. Are you saying that there is NO truth in the theories about the darker side of the masons? :)

[nulltid]

Tell me something, why is it that those wishing to beat the crap out of others have these ridiculous names, like 'Avenger' and 'Revelations'. Is this meant to scare people or what?

It's working man! I'm just gonna go hide in the corner and cuddle Solomon my teddy!

They are immature little critters. They do not assume responsibility for their own lifes and is putting the blame on social institutions they do not comprehend. They are fools that do not read books but rather get their 'truth fix' from watching videos available on internet and/or p2p networks.

You know, their library of reference is usally nonexistent and they probably have a pathological lack of imagination. So when it`s time for them to pick a user name they stick to what they know: hollywood movies and mainstream entertainment.

[nulltid]

Tell me something, why is it that those wishing to beat the crap out of others have these ridiculous names, like 'Avenger' and 'Revelations'. Is this meant to scare people or what?

It's working man! I'm just gonna go hide in the corner and cuddle Solomon my teddy!

Can I ask why did you become a mason? What joy do you get out of it? :confused:I mean this as a genuine question. I don't understand the concept fully.
How very polite of you to reply with a question.

[tinmenace]

If you really want to know the answers to these questions, then try reading the Masonic history books. There is an abundant supply of such on the open internet. They are not all necessarily 'pro' masonry, nor anti masonry.

A lot of the symbols and 'funny handshakes' as you non masons seem to term them, are to do with identification in a time when most men could neither read nor write. To put it in laymans terms, it identified men at certain levels of there working career. The rituals were / are part of this identification process.

As for excluding women, well, that isn't entirely true. There are womens lodges, as well as what we call co-ed lodges where men and women can join and work together.

Yes, I have read Freemason material, and I find it astonishingly bigoted. But what I'm trying to say is that you said it's "a group of like minded 'friends' enjoying one another's company and helping others along the way". Other social clubs don't have the rituals, symbols and secrets that the Freemasons do. So, there is MORE to it than just "a group of like minded 'friends' enjoying one another's company and helping others along the way", wouldn't you say?

I find it interesting that Freemasons say "ask whatever you want" and when I do, they don't answer. They always worm their way out of it. I don't want to read more books, I want to know YOUR personal opinion on what the big secret is about Freemasonry. Why do YOU think you have rituals and symbols? Please don't recite what you've been told the rituals are about. I'd like you to dig a bit deeper and tell me what YOU think.

About the handshake - so men that could build cathedrals to perfection couldn't write but they could do math? You're not being truthful.

Thanks :)

[amason]

Could I ask another question, if you don't mind. Are you saying that there is NO truth in the theories about the darker side of the masons? :)

No, I don't mind you asking at all.

Some years ago, and maybe even today, there were a few lodges which could be construed as those to which you refer. Various government and other investigations outed these lodges, and they were either closed down or the offenders were dismissed. I am not saying that all of them were cleaned up, some may have slipped through the net. But, saying that, there is corruption on a worldwide scale, not just in the masonic society.

In my experience, freemasonry is not a 'dark' society. I have never been asked to 'fix' something, nor would I ask. Our rules simply do not allow it. The initial remit of a Freemason is to be 'an honest, upright citizen of mature age and a free will'. These criteria are not those of a 'crook', would you agree.

There is a book, called 'The Brotherhood' written by Stephen Knight. I have a copy of this book, and it was probably the first book I read about Freemasonry before I joined. It tells of these lodges, and the practices they got up to. Stephen Knight was not a Mason himself, but was able to talk to people who were. It started off as an insight to Freemasonry and ended up as a full blown 'rip apart' of the masonic society. If you read it with a clear head, and read it properly, you will see that the society does not condone these activies in any form.

[tinmenace]

Why do you have to swear on your life never to reveal the secrets? What secrets could be so important that it will cost you your life if you reveal them?

[amason]

Why do you have to swear on your life never to reveal the secrets? What secrets could be so important that it will cost you your life if you reveal them?









This is part of the ancient rituals, and is now more symbolic. If the 'secrets' were given to those who hadn't earned the right to them, then the whole structure of the day would have crumbled. By that, I mean the structure to which the rituals etc. appertained.

I have nothing to hide from you, and if I am able to answer your questions without directly divulging the secrets entrusted to me, then I am happy to do so. I enjoy educational discussion such as this, and I will not knock your opinions. Every one is entitled to their opinions, but there are some opinions which should be kept to ones self.

[amason]

They are immature little critters. They do not assume responsibility for their own lifes and is putting the blame on social institutions they do not comprehend. They are fools that do not read books but rather get their 'truth fix' from watching videos available on internet and/or p2p networks.

You know, their library of reference is usally nonexistent and they probably have a pathological lack of imagination. So when it`s time for them to pick a user name they stick to what they know: hollywood movies and mainstream entertainment.


Thank you for what I consider an honest answer.

You will notice I haven't hidden my being a mason from this forum, it says what I am in my name, and I am proud to be one.

[tinmenace]

This is part of the ancient rituals, and is now more symbolic. If the 'secrets' were given to those who hadn't earned the right to them, then the whole structure of the day would have crumbled. By that, I mean the structure to which the rituals etc. appertained.

I have nothing to hide from you, and if I am able to answer your questions without directly divulging the secrets entrusted to me, then I am happy to do so. I enjoy educational discussion such as this, and I will not knock your opinions. Every one is entitled to their opinions, but there are some opinions which should be kept to ones self.

Ok, thanks. It's just like every other conversation I've had with Freemasons. It goes nowhere, which leaves me no choice but to maintain my original opinion of Freemasons, which is that it's a secretive society of men up to no good (because you refuse to honestly answer questions, instead you skirt around them).

But, whatever... It's your soul you've unknowingly sold. Have fun paying back Karma in the next life...and the next...

:)

[amason]

Ok, thanks. It's just like every other conversation I've had with Freemasons. It goes nowhere, which leaves me no choice but to maintain my original opinion of Freemasons, which is that it's a secretive society of men up to no good (because you refuse to honestly answer questions, instead you skirt around them).

But, whatever... It's your soul you've unknowingly sold. Have fun paying back Karma in the next life...and the next...

:)

Exactly what part of this discussion can you not comprehend.

I haven't skirted around anything, I have answered the questions to the best of my abilities without breaking the rules I live by. Have you never been asked to keep a secret?

What code of life do you live by exactly?

[amason]

Ok, thanks. It's just like every other conversation I've had with Freemasons. It goes nowhere, which leaves me no choice but to maintain my original opinion of Freemasons, which is that it's a secretive society of men up to no good (because you refuse to honestly answer questions, instead you skirt around them).

But, whatever... It's your soul you've unknowingly sold. Have fun paying back Karma in the next life...and the next...

:)

And,pray tell, what 'no good' do you think we get up to?

Last night at my lodge, we committed a good size portion of our charity fund to a local hospital in need of new equipment which thay cannot afford themselves, and desperatly need. Now, are you going to tell me that the hospital is in the clutches of the Masonic Society, because if you are, then you are SADLY mistaken. This is not a Masonic hospital, it is a regular General hospital in need of help. We help people and organisations, that's what we do, just like the Lions, The Round Table, The Rotary Club, The Red Cross..........shall I continue?


Some of the first lot of aid to reach the stricken people following the Tsunami in 2005 was purchased and despatched using Masonic Charity Funds. It was not a small sum either. The money was given to the Red Cross to purchase what they thought was needed, and distribute as they deemed necessary.

[coshh]

What are the relations between the masons and the catholic church like these days?
I know that the anti-vatican2ers still hate you but I don't spend enough time with the mainstream to know what they think.

[amason]

What are the relations between the masons and the catholic church like these days?
I know that the anti-vatican2ers still hate you but I don't spend enough time with the mainstream to know what they think.


Have a look here, it might answer your question far easier and quicker than I can.

http://www.io.com/~janebm/churchlaw.html

[coshh]

Cool thanks. It did.

[amason]

Cool thanks. It did.

and what then, is your opinion?

[nulltid]

Thank you for what I consider an honest answer.
Likewise. I am very grateful for you taking the time to answer questions here. It`s about time people get a more balanced view on freemasonry. However, I think most people here have the concept of freemasons pursuing a benevolent agenda too deeply ingrained in their core belief that thay are incapable to to see it for what it is.

You will notice I haven't hidden my being a mason from this forum, it says what I am in my name, and I am proud to be one.

huh? Neither did I accuse you of such.

[amason]

huh? Neither did I accuse you of such.

No, sorry, you didn't accuse me of such, that is correct, it was a reaction to something I read earlier, and was out of context. My apologies.

[amason]

Nulltid, just out of curiosity, and I don't mean this to sound invasive or rude, do you belong to any organisations at all?

[coshh]

and what then, is your opinion?

I don't really have an opinion. I like to stay out of politics (which is what this is) and just watch.

Still tensions but it seems it would be possible for a catholics to be involved in masonry, especially it seems in the usa, but he would have to be careful that traditionalist-ish catholics were not made aware of this fact.
I assume Jesuits still cannot become masons since Jesuits take their own oaths which would nullify masonic oaths?

It seems though that the places where freemasonry and catholicism are least compatible are places where the church is at its strongest which strongly implies continued hostility from the Vatican. Where they seem to be most compatible, the USA is a place where freemasonry is probably strongest, but I am not sure this means a lack of hostility to the church or simply an acknowledgment that the church being so relatively weak in the USA (and in places like the UK where catholicism is very much a weak and minority religion) is not something worth being hostile to in those places.

[manchurian_candidate]

How very polite of you to reply with a question.

I only used that quote so amason knew I was directing it at him/her. Chill out!!!

[bigus_dickus]

you dont know me or what im about!:rolleyes:


what i know, is that you helped a couple (or more) dudes to think about joining the freemasons with this thread..

[revelations]

Yeah right, i have led everyone on to become freemasons:rolleyes:

Get a grip ...dick!

what i know, is that you helped a couple (or more) dudes to think about joining the freemasons with this thread..

[amason]

I only used that quote so amason knew I was directing it at him/her. Chill out!!!


I took no offense, so no need for a scrap. I didn't mean to answer a question with a question in particular. I have already said I am not really the literary type, so please excuse my writings and don't start fighting amongst yourselves. As far as I am concerned, this is a debate between different minds, those for and those against. It just happens that I am a minority here, but no one is keeping me here, I am here of my own free will.

[bigus_dickus]

Yeah right, i have led everyone on to become freemasons:rolleyes:

Get a grip ...dick!

that's not what i said, dumbass.

[manchurian_candidate]

I took no offense, so no need for a scrap. I didn't mean to answer a question with a question in particular. I have already said I am not really the literary type, so please excuse my writings and don't start fighting amongst yourselves. As far as I am concerned, this is a debate between different minds, those for and those against. It just happens that I am a minority here, but no one is keeping me here, I am here of my own free will.

Don't worry I don't see the point in conflict the forum is supposed to more open minded than society so if people want to get on their high horse and point out others errors then that's their problem.

[amason]

Yeah right, i have led everyone on to become freemasons:rolleyes:

Get a grip ...dick!


You really are quite an offensive little man aren't you. Are you not able to have a rational debate without the use of profanity?

[bigus_dickus]

You really are quite an offensive little man aren't you. Are you not able to have a rational debate without the use of profanity?

let the kid play...

[revelations]

Im out of here, Im not wasting my energy chatting to satanic freaks.

CY'A ;)

[eternal_spirit]

I don't really have an opinion. I like to stay out of politics (which is what this is) and just watch.

Still tensions but it seems it would be possible for a catholics to be involved in masonry, especially it seems in the usa, but he would have to be careful that traditionalist-ish catholics were not made aware of this fact.
I assume Jesuits still cannot become masons since Jesuits take their own oaths which would nullify masonic oaths?

It seems though that the places where freemasonry and catholicism are least compatible are places where the church is at its strongest which strongly implies continued hostility from the Vatican. Where they seem to be most compatible, the USA is a place where freemasonry is probably strongest, but I am not sure this means a lack of hostility to the church or simply an acknowledgment that the church being so relatively weak in the USA (and in places like the UK where catholicism is very much a weak and minority religion) is not something worth being hostile to in those places.
.................................................. ..............

Jaques De Molay ( spelling? ) Head of the Knights Templar was put to death "burnt at the stake" by the King of France? Who happened to be a Catholic, or the Pope? I think that maybe one reason why they avenged Molay's death and dislike Catholics. Albert Pike was/is reffered to as the Pope of Freemasonry.

[amason]

Dear Boy, I beg to differ. It would appear that you have wasted a perfectly good education. If all you can manage is foul language, then you didn't learn much at school. You are one of the type who is ruining the country, not I.

[amason]

Im out of here, Im not wasting my energy chatting to satanic freaks.

CY'A ;)

tata..............:)

[coshh]

.................................................. ..............

Jaques De Molay ( spelling? ) Head of the Knights Templar was put to death "burnt at the stake" by the King of France? Who happened to be a Catholic, or the Pope? I think that maybe one reason why they avenged Molay's death and dislike Catholics. Albert Pike was/is reffered to as the Pope of Freemasonry.

Yeah but times change. Lots of organisations who begrudged each other have made up. I haven't looked into it in a while.
I guess with my homeboy Benedict in charge of course there is likely to be more tensions than with Paul VI and his predecessor. :p Although actually I think Ol' Ratzinger is more liberal than he lets on and is doing a honestly remarkable job of placating the conservatives whilst not going back too much on the changes to the church made in the last half century or so.

[lookfar]

Hey guys

Can we please refrain from the abusive insults on this thread, as they are really not necessary & are also against the forum guidelines. I've had to delete & edit a couple of posts here. Let's try to keep it civil please.

Thanks :)

[lumukanda]

Im out of here, Im not wasting my energy chatting to satanic freaks.

CY'A ;)

you know buddy, it was your actions that led to this, don't start what you can't finish.

I've got a question amason, freemasonry is a heirarchical organisation, i'm assuming (i might be wrong) that you are not that high up, now being the compartmentalised 'club' that it is, how can you truly know what is going on in the higher degrees, what their motivations and reasons are? is it possible that you're being fooled, that your activities are the public cover?

[lookfar]

you know buddy, it was your actions that led to this, don't start what you can't finish.

Yeah, very true lumu.

[amason]

you know buddy, it was your actions that led to this, don't start what you can't finish.

I've got a question amason, freemasonry is a heirarchical organisation, i'm assuming (i might be wrong) that you are not that high up, now being the compartmentalised 'club' that it is, how can you truly know what is going on in the higher degrees, what their motivations and reasons are? is it possible that you're being fooled, that your activities are the public cover?


You are right to some degree, pardon the expression:), but what are your suspicions of this based on? heresay or true experiences?

As far as I am aware, and to the most part, the reasons and motivations are the same regardless of the degree. In the lodges, all ranks talk to each other. It is not like the armed forces, where the officers don't mix with the cannon fodder! The degrees to which the majority of us belong or have attained, are the most common. There are degrees which have a more elite membership, but they are not unobtainable. The members of these degrees still converse with those of us who are not part of them. In Freemasonry, a higher degree does not necessarily mean a higher rank. The additional degrees are 'branches' of the degree we as freemasons become. The heirarchy, as you call it, is like a league. You have lodges in a district or province, then the provinces have a higher ruler again, in the UK, it is called Grand Lodge. So, it is like a football league or dart league, where you have the teams which belong to a certain league which in turn have the over all governing body. Does that make sense to you? I am trying to put it as simply as I can.

[mr_flibble]

Hi Amason.
Do you know of the illuminatus trilogy?
Do you think its responsible for the image certain people have of freemasonry?
What do you know (or can tell us) about people who go beyond the 33rd degree?
What degree are you?
Please excuse the lack of manners, typing isn`t my strong point.

[amason]

Hi Amason.
Do you know of the illuminatus trilogy?
Do you think its responsible for the image certain people have of freemasonry?
What do you know (or can tell us) about people who go beyond the 33rd degree?
What degree are you?
Please excuse the lack of manners, typing isn`t my strong point.


The illuminatus trilogy, not too much. I know it is a set of three books written allegedly around 1969 or so. The stories in the books are supposed to be that of fiction, but were written in such a way that they could well influence the reader. More recent works in the same dictum are Foucaults Pendulum and The Da Vinci Code.

As for the 33rd Degree, as far as I am aware it only stands in the USA, and there aren't many people who ever make it that far. I don't know of anyone.

I am a Master Mason. I have chosen to stay at this level for the time being.

Your'e excused!

[mike martin]

Can I ask why did you become a mason? What joy do you get out of it? :confused:I mean this as a genuine question. I don't understand the concept fully.

Hi again chaps sorry to come back again, I didn't intend to but this question is so interesting and people on other CT Forums (Con Cen etc) that I have used have been interested in my story so I'm going to share again.

I was about 17 when I first heard of Freemasonry, I picked up a book called "The Brotherhood" by a guy called Stephen Knight. I became an Anti-mason these twisted, sick, murdering, KGB-loving bar stewards were trying to ruin my Country because they were Masons. About a year later I saw a film on Telly called "The Man Who Would be King" by Rudyard Kipling (a Freemason) and it gave a completely different picture. Fortunately for me when I get hooked by a subject, I dig deeper. I bought more books both Anti and just Masonic.

What I found was that the masonic books full of history and details abot Masonry and clearly written by Masons made far more sense than the Anti books which kept on recycling the same old stuff. Enter the Internet and I had access to so much information from all around the World and guess what all the Anti stuff was still the same old stuff again just reproduced electronically. I had a full historical grip on the Freemason and decided I wanted to be a part fo them so set to trying to find one to ask. In 1994 I was Initiated into my Mother Lodge and have never looked back and I have made friends all over the World and our only link initially is the fact that we're Masons even thugh we're in different countries.

Has it helped me in my job? Hell no! I was made redundant in 2005 and have only just started back into (with the exception of some short term stuff) full-time work.

Do I worship the adversary? Hell no! I still believe in God just the way i did when I joined.

In my 14 years have I seen anyone carry out any dodgy deals or perversion of justice? Hell no! In fact Freemasonry frowns on such things and only someone who didn't understand what it was about would ignore that. I am aware of some though and those people when found out were kicked straight out for bringing Freemasonry into disrepute.

I may chuck in quick answers to others but you can always ask at TFM as long as respect for others is applied, we're a bit different from a CT Forum.

Mike

[mike martin]

Hi :)

But why is it so secretive, if it's just a "social" club? Why are women specifically excluded from joining your lodges? And why the rituals? Why the ridiculous rituals and symbols if it's just "a group of like minded 'friends' enjoying one another's company and helping others along the way"?

Being a gentleman's club doesn't explain all those other things. There's more to it, and you, like every other mason I've ever asked, are being dishonest about the true nature of Freemasonry.





I think this quetioning highlights why we don't get too interested in what we call Antis. A bit of personal research would have already confirmed for you what I shall now write.

It's hard to see what you think is "secretive" about Freemasonry? Most Grand Lodges, tons of Provincial Grand Lodges and hundreds of Lodges and some individual Freemasons have websites that you can visit. We do have "our" secrets which are the signs,token and words by which we prove which degree we have attained.

Women are only excluded from the men-only form of freemasonry! Here in England for over a Century we have had 2 Grand Lodges of women-only Freemasons and another which is for both men and women together.

It's not just a Gentlemen's Club, it is a Fraternity built around a traditional Ritual (2-300 years old) which has moral behaviour as its central message to all Candidates. There are many many Internet outlets (or even Ebay) where you or anyone else, could buy yourself a copy to read for yourself.

there is also the Charitable aspect which many non-Masons don't quite understand. We all know that the Rotary and the Lions etc etc all donate money to Charity what some don't realise is that we Freemasons don't collect the money we donate from non-Masons we give it ourselves to our Grand Charity which then distributes it to other Charities.

Mike

[manchurian_candidate]

Hi again chaps sorry to come back again, I didn't intend to but this question is so interesting and people on other CT Forums (Con Cen etc) that I have used have been interested in my story so I'm going to share again.

I was about 17 when I first heard of Freemasonry, I picked up a book called "The Brotherhood" by a guy called Stephen Knight. I became an Anti-mason these twisted, sick, murdering, KGB-loving bar stewards were trying to ruin my Country because they were Masons. About a year later I saw a film on Telly called "The Man Who Would be King" by Rudyard Kipling (a Freemason) and it gave a completely different picture. Fortunately for me when I get hooked by a subject, I dig deeper. I bought more books both Anti and just Masonic.

What I found was that the masonic books full of history and details abot Masonry and clearly written by Masons made far more sense than the Anti books which kept on recycling the same old stuff. Enter the Internet and I had access to so much information from all around the World and guess what all the Anti stuff was still the same old stuff again just reproduced electronically. I had a full historical grip on the Freemason and decided I wanted to be a part fo them so set to trying to find one to ask. In 1994 I was Initiated into my Mother Lodge and have never looked back and I have made friends all over the World and our only link initially is the fact that we're Masons even thugh we're in different countries.

Has it helped me in my job? Hell no! I was made redundant in 2005 and have only just started back into (with the exception of some short term stuff) full-time work.

Do I worship the adversary? Hell no! I still believe in God just the way i did when I joined.

In my 14 years have I seen anyone carry out any dodgy deals or perversion of justice? Hell no! In fact Freemasonry frowns on such things and only someone who didn't understand what it was about would ignore that. I am aware of some though and those people when found out were kicked straight out for bringing Freemasonry into disrepute.

I may chuck in quick answers to others but you can always ask at TFM as long as respect for others is applied, we're a bit different from a CT Forum.

Mike

Mike, Thank you so much for answering my question so incitefully. If I do visit your forum to ask some more questions I will treat your forum as you have treated this one.

Best Regards

MC

[mike martin]

What are the relations between the masons and the catholic church like these days?
I know that the anti-vatican2ers still hate you but I don't spend enough time with the mainstream to know what they think.

Feemasonry does not care what reliion Candidates belong to. The requirement is only that you are not an Atheist, although some of he unrecognised Orders (such as the Grand Orient of France) do admit Atheists.

The whole RC things is based on some of these unrecognised Constitutions willingness to involve themselves not only in religion but also in Politics in the past. Although the Papal ban includes Grand Lodges like mine when you read the criteria it actuall shouldn't as we don't plot against the RC Church. We don't care (as freemasons) what it does as we do not inolve ourselves in Religion.

The Grand Lodge of Ireland and the Grand Lodge of Spain have thousands of members who are Catholics and wh are not. Go figure.

mike

[nulltid]

Nulltid, just out of curiosity, and I don't mean this to sound invasive or rude, do you belong to any organisations at all?

Sure you can.

Political
I am a member of NORML. In regards to native politics, this is the battle that is of most interest to me.

Religious
I am not part of any religious institutions. I find occult thoughts far more captivating than thouse of religious schools. My knowledge in this area is limited.

Other
I am a member of a PHP interest group. I do not utilize php professionally but have found it to be quite useful nonetheless.

I am also an avid othello/reversi player and attend competitions whenever there is one in my local vicinity.

[mike martin]

the USA is a place where freemasonry is probably strongest,

I would disagree the figure given for American Masons is usually 3 million but this is out of a Poulation of 330 million and they are spread out amongst 50 odd Grand lodges which would give an average of 60,000 per GL. In England and Wales we have 270,000 Masons out of a population of 53 million, Scotland has 40,000 out of 5 million and Ireland 20,000 out of a poulation of 5million.

The difference is only that American Masons were never nearly invaded by the Nazis in WWII (Britain came very close) and never got secretive so they are easier to spot. UK Masons have become a lot more open over the last 20 years.

Mike

[mike martin]

Yes, I have read Freemason material, and I find it astonishingly bigoted. But what I'm trying to say is that you said it's "a group of like minded 'friends' enjoying one another's company and helping others along the way". Other social clubs don't have the rituals, symbols and secrets that the Freemasons do. So, there is MORE to it than just "a group of like minded 'friends' enjoying one another's company and helping others along the way", wouldn't you say?

I find it interesting that Freemasons say "ask whatever you want" and when I do, they don't answer. They always worm their way out of it. I don't want to read more books, I want to know YOUR personal opinion on what the big secret is about Freemasonry. Why do YOU think you have rituals and symbols? Please don't recite what you've been told the rituals are about. I'd like you to dig a bit deeper and tell me what YOU think.

About the handshake - so men that could build cathedrals to perfection couldn't write but they could do math? You're not being truthful.

I'd be interested to see a list of what Masonic books you have read as most conspiracists I've come across actually haven't, much like many Masons.

We say ask what you want but when someone asks a question not actually based n the realit of Freemasonry it becomes very difficult to answer. It's a bit like you aksing me when did I last see the Grand Master turn into a lizard. I can't answer that sensibly as he isn't a lizard and I've met him a few times and I would have noticed.

The Ritual is the traditional centre of Freemasonry and it imparts some lessons about how to be a nce person. It's origin can be found in the catechsms of Stone Masons from the 12th and 13th Centuries, it was made what we call "speculative" during the 17th and 18th centuries by the freethinkers who took over the Tradition.

i think the problem s that you have to try to look at it not with 21st Century eyes as it isn't of this time it has come forward from a time when the world was a much simpler place.

Mike

[ichi wa zen]

The higher up you go in degree, the more children you have to sacrifice and the more blood you have to suck. Hail Lucifer Baby!

Nice friendly bunch those masons. Wolves in sheepclothes!

[mike martin]

.................................................. ..............

Jaques De Molay ( spelling? ) Head of the Knights Templar was put to death "burnt at the stake" by the King of France? Who happened to be a Catholic, or the Pope? I think that maybe one reason why they avenged Molay's death and dislike Catholics. Albert Pike was/is reffered to as the Pope of Freemasonry.

Just to let you in on a secret, far more non-Masons think there is any kind of link between the Knights Templar and us than we do.

Abert Pike was only ever referred to as a "Pope" by Anti Masons not by us. He was the Head of the AASR of the Southern Jurisdiction of the US, so not even the whole of America just the Southern States. he had far less influence than Anti-masons try to claim, unfortunately as the majority of Masons who are not part of that jurisdiction have never even heard of him they don't know how to answer questions about him.

I have read my copy of Morals and Dogma several times and can tell you that most of the quotes from it produced on Anti sites have been quoted out of context or just plain misquoted.

Any way that's enough for today.

ttfn.
Mike

[mike martin]

The higher up you go in degree, the more children you have to sacrifice and the more blood you have to suck. Hail Lucifer Baby!

Nice friendly bunch those masons. Wolves in sheepclothes!

Any chance of a Masonic source for this???

Mike

[coshh]

You are asking for a source that says that masons make you kill more babies the higher you go? XD

God bless the internet!

[armoured_amazon]

You are asking for a source that says that masons make you kill more babies the higher you go? XD

God bless the internet!

LOL :D

[mike martin]

You are asking for a source that says that masons make you kill more babies the higher you go? XD

Well yes but it's because I'm trying to illustrate a point.

That being that if you were to compare what you think you know with what we do know (for example by buying the actual Rituals) you would see why we find this laughable.

Mike

[coshh]

Well yes but it's because I'm trying to illustrate a point.

That being that if you were to compare what you think you know with what we do know you would see why we find this laughable.


Don't assume that I "think I know" things. I know plenty about the OTO and crap like that that stole lots of ideas from the masons but the masons themselves always seemed too boring to bother looking into to me.

[eternal_spirit]

Just to let you in on a secret, far more non-Masons think there is any kind of link between the Knights Templar and us than we do.

Abert Pike was only ever referred to as a "Pope" by Anti Masons not by us. He was the Head of the AASR of the Southern Jurisdiction of the US, so not even the whole of America just the Southern States. he had far less influence than Anti-masons try to claim, unfortunately as the majority of Masons who are not part of that jurisdiction have never even heard of him they don't know how to answer questions about him.

I have read my copy of Morals and Dogma several times and can tell you that most of the quotes from it produced on Anti sites have been quoted out of context or just plain misquoted.

Any way that's enough for today.

ttfn.
Mike

......................................

It's no secret I know, Jerusalem and Solomon
and a Knights Templar degree in some Masonic Lodges?

[grenadene]

It is the masons which are subject public scrutiny.

I'm a bit confused... did you mean Ought to be subject to public scrutiny? :confused:

[mike martin]

......................................

It's no secret I know, Jerusalem and Solomon
and a Knights Templar degree in some Masonic Lodges?

Well actually that's a very simplstic interpretation of the only real link.

The Ritual of Freemasonry is based on things that may (or not) have happened during the building of King Solomon's Temple with a central legendary character called Hiram Abiff. This is because the rudimentary Ritual that we started with back in the 1400s said that Solomon's Temple was a great wonder of architecture and to them as builders that made it important.

First the Knights Templar were in fact called the Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and the Temple (no mention of Solomon) Their name got shortened to Knights Templar, they were initially allowed to use the land on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem (possibly where the ruins were but of course no one has been able to prove that there even was a temple of King Solomon) as their HQ when they set up in the Holy Land. as far as anyone knows their Ritual had no mention of Hiram Abiff and TBH why would it, he didn't appear in Masonic ritual until the early 1800s.

The Masonic Knight Templar Order is not linked to the original Poor Fellows, it only claims to continue their virtues of goodness, honour and knightliness it was dreamt up during the mid 1800s at a time when many people in Europe were going through a very romantic time, at the same time several Arthurian Orders were also coming into being. The thing to remember (and a simple google search will confirm this for you) is that there are many more non-Masonic Templar Orders that do claim to come direct from DeMolay and are nothing to do with Freemasonry.

Helpful?

Mike

[stealth]

Welcome to the forum mike martin and that was a very imformative post thankyou.ps' is that your real picture as your avatar.:D:D

[nulltid]

If you feed google with the search term "masonic conspiracy" it will return 25,700 results. So, either my statement holds true - or - those that write about masonic conspiracies have no clue what they are talking about.

I'm a bit confused... did you mean Ought to be subject to public scrutiny? :confused:

Question to amason / mike martin (If I may have the privilege)

Do you feel that the masonic fraternity have been the subject of public scrutiny, from early times to present day?

[paganus]

there have been allegations that David Icke is actually a FreeMason.any Mason have any thoughts on this?

[smoking oceanus]

there have been allegations that David Icke is actually a FreeMason.any Mason have any thoughts on this?


This allegation was proposed by Allan Watt, wheres his evidence?.

[paganus]

This allegation was proposed by Allan Watt, wheres his evidence?.never seen any,dont belive it. just wondered what the 'official' take was.

[amason]

The higher up you go in degree, the more children you have to sacrifice and the more blood you have to suck. Hail Lucifer Baby!

Nice friendly bunch those masons. Wolves in sheepclothes!

Some of you guys really need to have a word with yourselves!!!:)

[amason]

If you feed google with the search term "masonic conspiracy" it will return 25,700 results. So, either my statement holds true - or - those that write about masonic conspiracies have no clue what they are talking about.



Question to amason / mike martin (If I may have the privilege)

Do you feel that the masonic fraternity have been the subject of public scrutiny, from early times to present day?

I think we will always be a subject of public scrutiny, if only because people are often frightened of that which they do not understand.

[mike martin]

Welcome to the forum mike martin and that was a very imformative post thankyou.ps' is that your real picture as your avatar.:D:D

It is a real picture of me when I was Installed as Master of my Mother Lodge in 2002, however, I photoshopped the Lizard head about 3 years ago and it has been my normal Internet avatar since then.

Mike

[tinmenace]

I think we will always be a subject of public scrutiny, if only because people are often frightened of that which they do not understand.

Another scripted answer. I'm trying to understand. I'm asking you questions and you won't answer them because you can't reveal secrets to which you have been entrusted. :rolleyes:

Don't keep secrets from us and then accuse us of being ignorant because of it.

[tinmenace]

I think this quetioning highlights why we don't get too interested in what we call Antis. A bit of personal research would have already confirmed for you what I shall now write.

It's hard to see what you think is "secretive" about Freemasonry? Most Grand Lodges, tons of Provincial Grand Lodges and hundreds of Lodges and some individual Freemasons have websites that you can visit. We do have "our" secrets which are the signs,token and words by which we prove which degree we have attained.

Women are only excluded from the men-only form of freemasonry! Here in England for over a Century we have had 2 Grand Lodges of women-only Freemasons and another which is for both men and women together.

It's not just a Gentlemen's Club, it is a Fraternity built around a traditional Ritual (2-300 years old) which has moral behaviour as its central message to all Candidates. There are many many Internet outlets (or even Ebay) where you or anyone else, could buy yourself a copy to read for yourself.

there is also the Charitable aspect which many non-Masons don't quite understand. We all know that the Rotary and the Lions etc etc all donate money to Charity what some don't realise is that we Freemasons don't collect the money we donate from non-Masons we give it ourselves to our Grand Charity which then distributes it to other Charities.

Mike

Why is there men-only Freemasonry?

[mike martin]

If you feed google with the search term "masonic conspiracy" it will return 25,700 results. So, either my statement holds true - or - those that write about masonic conspiracies have no clue what they are talking about.

If you google Freemasonry you will recieve 1,760,000 hits, in the top 5 are the Grand Lodges of England and Scotland, so what's your point.



Question to amason / mike martin (If I may have the privilege)

Do you feel that the masonic fraternity have been the subject of public scrutiny, from early times to present day?

When Freemasonry announced the formation of the Grand Lodge of England in 1717 the first exposure of it's Ritual was published in 1719. So quite obviously yes it has always been of interest to the Public.

In fact it only stopped appearing in the news and in public during World War 2when it saw what the Nazis did to Freemasons in each country they invaded and it was felt that it could happen here.

Mike

[mike martin]

there have been allegations that David Icke is actually a FreeMason.any Mason have any thoughts on this?

Yes, very funny!

Mike

[mike martin]

Why is there men-only Freemasonry?

Because there is. Do you actually have a point to make? Cos you're doing really well at hiding it so far! Did you read my last post??

Mike

[mike martin]

Another scripted answer. I'm trying to understand. I'm asking you questions and you won't answer them because you can't reveal secrets to which you have been entrusted. :rolleyes:

Don't keep secrets from us and then accuse us of being ignorant because of it.

Ahh I can see we have already left your comfort zone.

You don't like the answer so it is scripted! Could this maybe be because you have been told this answer by Freemasons before.

Are you so certain that you know better than us what we do? If the answer to this is yes (as it obviously is) you need to rethink your world view. Things are not so just because you say they are. If you prefer the theories to the facts that's fine and is your right (which I am happy to defend for you) but try in future to remember that you are dealing in fantasy.

Mike

[grenadene]

If you feed google with the search term "masonic conspiracy" it will return 25,700 results. So, either my statement holds true - or - those that write about masonic conspiracies have no clue what they are talking about.

Thanks for patronising me.... i find it reassuring :p

I'm sure there are many sites dedicated to masonic conspiracies... however i doubt very much that they are all balanced public investigations. In fact the public know very little about the workings of the freemasons, which is what troubles me... businessMEN do not gather in secret to discuss how to make the world a better place....sadly :rolleyes:

[tinmenace]

I think we will always be a subject of public scrutiny, if only because people are often frightened of that which they do not understand.



Another scripted answer. I'm trying to understand. I'm asking you questions and you won't answer them because you can't reveal secrets to which you have been entrusted. :rolleyes:

Don't keep secrets from us and then accuse us of being ignorant because of it.



Ahh I can see we have already left your comfort zone.

You don't like the answer so it is scripted! Could this maybe be because you have been told this answer by Freemasons before.

Are you so certain that you know better than us what we do? If the answer to this is yes (as it obviously is) you need to rethink your world view. Things are not so just because you say they are. If you prefer the theories to the facts that's fine and is your right (which I am happy to defend for you) but try in future to remember that you are dealing in fantasy.

Mike

Typical Freemason mind-games... http://forums.spiritual-nature.com/Smileys/new/classic/icon_blah.gif http://forums.spiritual-nature.com/Smileys/new/classic/icon_wank.gif

[nulltid]

If you google Freemasonry you will recieve 1,760,000 hits, in the top 5 are the Grand Lodges of England and Scotland, so what's your point.
You are obviously a bright man so I will put it in context for you.

Oh crikey.... we are being watched ;)

I'll be keeping my tin foil hat on thank you very much!!!

It is the masons which are subject public scrutiny.

I'm a bit confused... did you mean Ought to be subject to public scrutiny? :confused:

If you feed google with the search term "masonic conspiracy" it will return 25,700 results. So, either my statement holds true - or - those that write about masonic conspiracies have no clue what they are talking about.



Question to amason / mike martin (If I may have the privilege)

Do you feel that the masonic fraternity have been the subject of public scrutiny, from early times to present day?
I thought grenadene´s initial remark was kind of silly because it´s old news in this age of surveillance. And thus I wanted to point out that freemasons are not exempt from being watched (by people wishing to expose the diabolic nature of the fraternity). That observation was confirmed by amason with this generic statement:

I think we will always be a subject of public scrutiny, if only because people are often frightened of that which they do not understand.

Thanks for the insight and your continued presence here.

Oh, let me just add this:
I see this as a free exchange of information based on volunteer participation. The views expressed are my own opinions and observations.

[nulltid]

Thanks for patronising me.... i find it reassuring :p

I'm sure there are many sites dedicated to masonic conspiracies... however i doubt very much that they are all balanced public investigations. In fact the public know very little about the workings of the freemasons, which is what troubles me... businessMEN do not gather in secret to discuss how to make the world a better place....sadly :rolleyes:

Say what?? Now you are just being plain ignorant.

You can attain lots of masonic literature from here: http://www.jpluther.com/index.htm



*

[amason]

Another scripted answer. I'm trying to understand. I'm asking you questions and you won't answer them because you can't reveal secrets to which you have been entrusted. :rolleyes:

Don't keep secrets from us and then accuse us of being ignorant because of it.



Listen fella, you are the one with the problem here. It is not a 'scripted' answer, it is a TRUE answer, or maybe you just don't understand THE TRUTH!!

And tell me, just why should I tell you our secrets, that would be me breaking the rules, and giving up that which I have sworn to protect. Have you never been given a secret?? You don't actually need to know our secrets in order to understand our reasons. What you need, is a sound mind, one that can reason! You are obviously not blessed with this. I am sorry for you, as I'll bet that Freemasonry is not the only thing to feel your wrath!

[auntienana]

This is part of the ancient rituals, and is now more symbolic. If the 'secrets' were given to those who hadn't earned the right to them, then the whole structure of the day would have crumbled. By that, I mean the structure to which the rituals etc. appertained.

I have nothing to hide from you, and if I am able to answer your questions without directly divulging the secrets entrusted to me, then I am happy to do so. I enjoy educational discussion such as this, and I will not knock your
opinions. Every one is entitled to their opinions, but there are some opinions which should be kept to ones self.

Not excelling at communicating via the written language can unfortunately for me and conveniently for you be used as an "out" if you have to retrace your steps. Because of this you lose a good measure of credibility.

With that said, the explanation regarding secrets unto death is far from an answer. ie. "is now more symbolic" More symbolic oaths implies there are oaths that are less symbolic and thus literal. If you had used the term "now symbolic" (which you didn't) it would imply that the literal oaths had been abolished. Therefore, even now it follows there exists literal oaths unto death. I can understand the need to take the focus off of the secret of "death oaths". Certainly, we don't want any loss of life. I would therefore exhort one to choose their words carefully. ( i say that in jest)

You spoke in past tense. This implies that the rituals in olden days were "prone to crumbling" thus the need for secrecy. As you don't mention that these secret rituals are, still today, "prone to crumbling" this misleads the reader to believe they were only practiced in the past and not in present day.


I don't know if there are any secrets unto death in the level you describe yourself to be in. I concur that these levels are mostly benevolent and that you are a sincere man and active in your good deeds. Up to the 32 degree and possibly some of the 33rd a portion of the conventional literature is most likely true. It is the 33rd degree up to the 360th degree that is malevolent and these are the levels that you claim ignorance to.



I suppose one would have to retrace their steps and further explain what was meant due to "English illiteracy" challenges. It really is disappointing.

[kasalt]

Listen fella...

FYI, Tinmenace is a she, not a he. I realise you wouldn't know that being new here.

And tell me, just why should I tell you our secrets, that would be me breaking the rules, and giving up that which I have sworn to protect. Have you never been given a secret??

There is an old saying--perhaps you've heard it?--which goes as follows:

"Secrecy breeds suspicion."

[paganus]

Yes, very funny!

Mikei take it he's not then!:D

[grenadene]

Say what?? Now you are just being plain ignorant.

You can attain lots of masonic literature from here: http://www.jpluther.com/index.htm



*

I see your sense of humour is alive and well??

Why do MEN join the freemasons then? and why all the secrecy? and the Shibboleth?

Freemasonry: An Approach to Life

What promises do Freemasons take?

New members make solemn promises concerning their conduct in the lodge and society. These promises are similar to those taken in court or upon entering the armed services or many other organisations. Each member also promises to keep confidential the traditional methods of proving he is a Freemason which he would use when visiting a lodge where he is not known.

Whats the problem with 'openly' contributing to charitable and altruistic endeavours?... it might even encourage others to do the same

Leading by example perhaps...sharing this unique spiritual insight for the benefit of all?

And how do you prioritise alliegances... citizenship or membership?,

I'm not attacking anyone personally....i'm sure for the most of the regular masons its all about making a few business contacts and getting pissed up 4 times a year!!

[paganus]

to be honest,i think its the same with all organizations,social clubs,groups etc.i mean you could belong to a rambling club and get someone come for a job where your interviewing.if that person is known to you and is a friend from your rambling club,your probably more likely to give them the job than someone you dont know.Human beings are pack animals by nature.we are a tribal species.

[eternal_spirit]

Do you think the rituals are used for mind control? Part of a ritual is fear based....the vow of silence "to keep secrets" Or, suffer the "consequences" if the "vow is broken."




http://www.veling.nl/anne/templars/mrituals.html

The initiation to the first degree begins when the candidate is brought before the entrance to the temple and the guard hits the door with the hilt of his sword.
"I was hoodwinked (that is, blindfolded) and dressed in loose-fitting white trousers and top. One foot was in a simple slipper (the expression for this is 'slipshod'), my left leg was exposed to the knee, and the left breast of the tunic had been drawn aside so that my chest was bared on that side. Unbeknown to me a hangman's noose had been put around my neck and draped down my back. I had been relieved of all metal objects and I was not ready to be lead into the Temple. (We later learnt that this mode of dress, the rough smock with the running noose about the neck, was exactly how a medieval heretic would have been treated by the Inquisition prior to making his confession.)"
- Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas, The Hiram Key: Pharaohs, Freemasons and the Discovery of the Secret Scrolls of Jesus The candidate is questioned with a knife blade pressed to his throat about his eligibility and whether his motives in joining are worthy. After a short prayer, the candidate is lead three times around the perimeter, pausing on each lap to be introduced as a "poor candidate in a state of darkness". In the coronation of an Egyptian pharaoh, too, the new king is conducted around the Temple to show himself worthy . The candidate is then brought before the Worshipful Master's pedestal:

"Q. How were you prepared?
A. By being divested of all metals, neither naked nor clothed, barefoot nor shod, hoodwinked, with a cable-tow around my neck; in which condition I was conducted to the door of a Lodge by a friend, whom I afterward found to be a brother.
Q. How did you know it to be a door, being hoodwinked?
A. By first meeting with resistance, afterward gaining admission
Q. How gained you admission?
A. By three distinct knocks.
Q. What were said to you from within?
A. Who comes here?
Q. Your answer?
A. Mr -----. who has long been in darkness, and now seeks to be brought to light, and to receive a part in the rights and benefits of this worshipful Lodge, erected to God, and dedicated to the holy Sts. John [John the Baptist and John the Evangelist], as all brothers and fellows have done before." - Duncan's Masonic Ritual and Monitor or Guide to the Three Symbolic Degrees of the Ancient York Rite The abbreviated modern version goes:
Q. Having been in a state of darkness, what is the predominant wish of your heart?
The answer is whispered into the candidate's ear.
A. Light.
Q. Then let that blessing be restored. The blindfold is removed and the "lights" of Freemasonry revealed - the Volume of the SAcre (http://www.veling.nl/anne/templars/index.html)d Law (the Bible), the Square and the Compass. The secret signs, grips and password of the first degree are explained, as well as the meaning of Boaz, the left-hand pillar in the Porchway of Solomon's Temple. The candidate is then presented with a white lambskin apron "more ancient than the Golden Fleece or Roman Eagle". Throughout the ceremony Apprentice is taught moral virtues based on architectural analogies. At the conclusion, as in each degree, is a celebratory dinner with much toasting, speeches and singing.

[amason]

Not excelling at communicating via the written language can unfortunately for me and conveniently for you be used as an "out" if you have to retrace your steps. Because of this you lose a good measure of credibility.

With that said, the explanation regarding secrets unto death is far from an answer. ie. "is now more symbolic" More symbolic oaths implies there are oaths that are less symbolic and thus literal. If you had used the term "now symbolic" (which you didn't) it would imply that the literal oaths had been abolished. Therefore, even now it follows there exists literal oaths unto death. I can understand the need to take the focus off of the secret of "death oaths". Certainly, we don't want any loss of life. I would therefore exhort one to choose their words carefully. ( i say that in jest)

You spoke in past tense. This implies that the rituals in olden days were "prone to crumbling" thus the need for secrecy. As you don't mention that these secret rituals are, still today, "prone to crumbling" this misleads the reader to believe they were only practiced in the past and not in present day.


I don't know if there are any secrets unto death in the level you describe yourself to be in. I concur that these levels are mostly benevolent and that you are a sincere man and active in your good deeds. Up to the 32 degree and possibly some of the 33rd a portion of the conventional literature is most likely true. It is the 33rd degree up to the 360th degree that is malevolent and these are the levels that you claim ignorance to.



I suppose one would have to retrace their steps and further explain what was meant due to "English illiteracy" challenges. It really is disappointing.


Taking my words, those which I have already stated I have difficulty putting into literary terms, and dissecting them for your own means is clever! Okay, maybe I could have chosen different wording, but then my ability to do that would negate my previous statement, would it not.

Post tense, past tense, read it as you will. I am don't have to justify my words just to satisfy your ignorance.

[amason]

to be honest,i think its the same with all organizations,social clubs,groups etc.i mean you could belong to a rambling club and get someone come for a job where your interviewing.if that person is known to you and is a friend from your rambling club,your probably more likely to give them the job than someone you dont know.Human beings are pack animals by nature.we are a tribal species.

Ah, someone with some sense!

Yes, you are quite right in this. This is an anacronysm I use on a regular basis when discussing whether or not a mason gets preference over others.
If you have a group of friends, and they are in various different trades, it stands to reason that you are more likely to engage their services over those of a complete stranger. It's part of what friendship is all about. Now, is there anything wrong with this principle?

[amason]

Do you think the rituals are used for mind control? Part of a ritual is fear based....the vow of silence "to keep secrets" Or, suffer the "consequences" if the "vow is broken."




http://www.veling.nl/anne/templars/mrituals.html

The initiation to the first degree begins when the candidate is brought before the entrance to the temple and the guard hits the door with the hilt of his sword.
"I was hoodwinked (that is, blindfolded) and dressed in loose-fitting white trousers and top. One foot was in a simple slipper (the expression for this is 'slipshod'), my left leg was exposed to the knee, and the left breast of the tunic had been drawn aside so that my chest was bared on that side. Unbeknown to me a hangman's noose had been put around my neck and draped down my back. I had been relieved of all metal objects and I was not ready to be lead into the Temple. (We later learnt that this mode of dress, the rough smock with the running noose about the neck, was exactly how a medieval heretic would have been treated by the Inquisition prior to making his confession.)"
- Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas, The Hiram Key: Pharaohs, Freemasons and the Discovery of the Secret Scrolls of Jesus The candidate is questioned with a knife blade pressed to his throat about his eligibility and whether his motives in joining are worthy. After a short prayer, the candidate is lead three times around the perimeter, pausing on each lap to be introduced as a "poor candidate in a state of darkness". In the coronation of an Egyptian pharaoh, too, the new king is conducted around the Temple to show himself worthy . The candidate is then brought before the Worshipful Master's pedestal:

"Q. How were you prepared?
A. By being divested of all metals, neither naked nor clothed, barefoot nor shod, hoodwinked, with a cable-tow around my neck; in which condition I was conducted to the door of a Lodge by a friend, whom I afterward found to be a brother.
Q. How did you know it to be a door, being hoodwinked?
A. By first meeting with resistance, afterward gaining admission
Q. How gained you admission?
A. By three distinct knocks.
Q. What were said to you from within?
A. Who comes here?
Q. Your answer?
A. Mr -----. who has long been in darkness, and now seeks to be brought to light, and to receive a part in the rights and benefits of this worshipful Lodge, erected to God, and dedicated to the holy Sts. John [John the Baptist and John the Evangelist], as all brothers and fellows have done before." - Duncan's Masonic Ritual and Monitor or Guide to the Three Symbolic Degrees of the Ancient York Rite The abbreviated modern version goes:
Q. Having been in a state of darkness, what is the predominant wish of your heart?
The answer is whispered into the candidate's ear.
A. Light.
Q. Then let that blessing be restored. The blindfold is removed and the "lights" of Freemasonry revealed - the Volume of the SAcre (http://www.veling.nl/anne/templars/index.html)d Law (the Bible), the Square and the Compass. The secret signs, grips and password of the first degree are explained, as well as the meaning of Boaz, the left-hand pillar in the Porchway of Solomon's Temple. The candidate is then presented with a white lambskin apron "more ancient than the Golden Fleece or Roman Eagle". Throughout the ceremony Apprentice is taught moral virtues based on architectural analogies. At the conclusion, as in each degree, is a celebratory dinner with much toasting, speeches and singing.



Mind control.............no way, I would say those of you kicking the crap out of our beliefs are the ones who's minds are being controlled. I came into Freemasonry of my own free will and accord. I was not goaded, bribed, lied to or threatened. I did, as any sensible person would do, avail myself of a little knowledge prior to going into it. Fear based.............no way. At no time have I been in a state of fear during a ritual.

As for the ritual you have quoted, you need to look again, it is not applicable to most of us in this form. You have just taken the first piece of ritual you have come across and pasted it here.

[eternal_spirit]

Mind control.............no way, I would say those of you kicking the crap out of our beliefs are the ones who's minds are being controlled. I came into Freemasonry of my own free will and accord. I was not goaded, bribed, lied to or threatened. I did, as any sensible person would do, avail myself of a little knowledge prior to going into it. Fear based.............no way. At no time have I been in a state of fear during a ritual.

As for the ritual you have quoted, you need to look again, it is not applicable to most of us in this form. You have just taken the first piece of ritual you have come across and pasted it here.

..............................
:mad:
I say old chap keep your wig on!:eek:
Guess that answers my question maybe? or does it, or leads to another question is this guy's post a sign he's mind controlled?

[mike martin]

I'm sure there are many sites dedicated to masonic conspiracies... however i doubt very much that they are all balanced public investigations. In fact the public know very little about the workings of the freemasons, which is what troubles me... businessMEN do not gather in secret to discuss how to make the world a better place....sadly :rolleyes:

I can see your point but it is very much fed by the company you keep (here for example), the Public knows more than it thinks it does about the workings of Freemasonry. The real issue is that there are groups of people, who are not Masons, inventing much more content than actually exists. The way to look at these claims is to try and objectively apply some logic to them.

An example, Freemasonry has no interest in controlling the World (NWO stylee), If it did it would have been working to that aim 300 years ago and try to remember the job would have been far easier then. It's really comes down to a test of logic, if Freemasonry really existed to do such a thing it would have done it some time ago, as Freemasonry has been around for 250 years longer than the theory.

Another example, the concept of Freemasonry somehow being secret. A simple logic test would be the fact that I'm here telling you I'm a Freemason, then look at the thousands of books about Freemasonry some of which are nearly as old as freemasonry itself. It's hardly secret. Also, the fact (as i mentioned earlier) that you as a non-Mason can buy the Ritual books that we use, in the same way that we do. Also, since the Internet came about Freemasonry is even easier to find out about.

As to the capitalised men in your post all I can really do is supply you a couple of links for your further research.

www.hfaf.org - www.owf.org.uk/ - www.womenfreemasonsusa.com/ - www.glff.org/internet/fr/cois&devp.htm

It would appear that businessWOMEN may also gather in "secret" to make the world a better place.

Mike

[eternal_spirit]

Join the thread http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/to...?topic_id=6635

The links not working. I haven't even read any of this Forum, so I don't know what all the fuss is a bout or the issue:confused:

Just thought I'd join in the debate seeing as though Mike & Co have answered some questions that have been raised.

[mike martin]

Do you think the rituals are used for mind control? Part of a ritual is fear based....the vow of silence "to keep secrets" Or, suffer the "consequences" if the "vow is broken."

Mind control? Nope?

I also don't understand how you make a link between Ritual and fear?

Also I've found a link that you may find interesting in your research, rather tha just reading fragments, it also illustrates how easy it is to find and actually read for yourself our Ritual.

http://www.stichtingargus.nl/vrijmetselarij/ovo_remul1.html

I think at the end of the day an individual's freedom of thought is nicely illustrated by how well they investigate an issue or subject about which they project the idea that they have either a knowledge or an interest. As you will see I have tried to supply some resources that may help in this arena, I believe that no one should be led by the nose to their belief and should learn by their own effort and from diverse sources. If you think that makes me brain washed, fine that's your opinion, I'll just beg to differ.

Mike

[mike martin]

The links not working. I haven't even read any of this Forum, so I don't know what all the fuss is a bout or the issue:confused:

Just thought I'd join in the debate seeing as though Mike & Co have answered some questions that have been raised.

The link should be http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=6635

There wasn't any fuss really a few of the less mature members of this Forum thought they would start a bun-fight by sort of invading our Forum. No fuss no mess.

Mike

[mike martin]

Oh, let me just add this:
I see this as a free exchange of information based on volunteer participation. The views expressed are my own opinions and observations.

I understand now.

I will add a rule which all Freemasons are aware of and that is that no one Freemason nor even one Grand Lodge can speak on behalf of Freemasonry as a whole.

This is because although there is a concept called freemasonry which is spread all over the world, there are differences in each and every Grand Lodge and in each and every Freemason's mind of exactly what Freemasonry is.

All I am able to do is to give you my opinon based on my experience as a Freemason of 14 years standing (and as a Past Master of my Lodge) coupled with the 12 years before I joined spent learning about it.

Mike

[grenadene]

its great to have you guys here ... illuminating us ;)

[amason]

its great to have you guys here ... illuminating us ;)

Glad to be of service:)

[limelady]

Hello guys!! Its really interesting to have you here. :)

Many people have speculated that its only FMs who are admitted into the top 3 degress in Freemasonry (33rd degree being the highest recognised officially) who ever have access to the REAL secrets of Fremasonry.

I have no idea what degrees you are, but I was wondering if you can you shed some some light on this for us from your own perspective please?

[amason]

Hello guys!! Its really interesting to have you here. :)

Many people have speculated that its only FMs who are admitted into the top 3 degress in Freemasonry (33rd degree being the highest recognised officially) who ever have access to the REAL secrets of Fremasonry.

I have no idea what degrees you are, but I was wondering if you can you shed some some light on this for us from your own perspective please?

I am a 3rd Degree, or Master Mason.


This is an extract from a wickipedia page, explaining the structure.

There is no degree in Freemasonry higher than that of Master Mason, the Third Degree.[19] There are, however, a number of organisations that require being a Master Mason as a prerequisite for membership.[20] These bodies have no authority over the Craft.[19] These orders or degrees may be described as additional or appendant, and often provide a further perspective on some of the allegorical, moral and philosophical content of Freemasonry.

Appendant bodies are administered separately from Craft Grand Lodges but are styled Masonic since every member must be a Mason. However, Craft Masonic jurisdictions vary in their relationships with such bodies, if a relationship exists at all. The Articles of Union of the "Modern" and "Antient" craft Grand Lodges (into UGLE in 1813) limited recognition to certain degrees, such as the Royal Arch and the "chivalric degrees", but there were and are many other degrees that have been worked since before the Union. Some bodies are not universally considered to be appendant bodies, but rather separate organisations that happen to require prior Masonic affiliation for membership. Some of these organisations have additional requirements, such as religious adherence (e.g., requiring members to profess Trinitarian Christian beliefs) or membership of other bodies.

Quite apart from these, there are organisations that are often thought of as being related to Freemasonry, but which are in fact not related at all and are not accorded recognition as Masonic. These include such organisations as the Orange Order, which originated in Ireland, or the Independent Order of Odd Fellows.



So, you see, to be able to answer your question, one would have to be a member of these additional bodies.

As for 33rd degree, that is by invitation, and they are not handed out like toffees.

Here is another site which give you a clue as to the structure. It also gives a brief description of the degree.

http://www.100megsfree2.com/jjscherr/scherr/Freemasonrydegrees.htm

[lumukanda]

So, you see, to be able to answer your question, one would have to be a member of these additional bodies.

As for 33rd degree, that is by invitation, and they are not handed out like toffees.

Here is another site which give you a clue as to the structure. It also gives a brief description of the degree.

see, this is the bit that bothers us, who does the inviting? and why would some be chosen and not others? we find many people in very powerful positions, often elected positions, that are masons, what bothers us is whether or not the oaths they take supercede their responsibilities to the people they are meant to serve, because let's be honest, the governments of the world, despite what they say, do not serve the people.

[limelady]

Thanks! :)

So, you see, to be able to answer your question, one would have to be a member of these additional bodies.

As for 33rd degree, that is by invitation, and they are not handed out like toffees.

What are your own thoughts on what sorts of initiations are involved in these highest degrees. I mean, it has been speculated MANY times by various researchers, that you have to be a member of an elite bloodline to gain access to the 33rd degree, and once initiated, you are part of a very elite group of people who ACTUALLY run this planet.

I understand that if you are not yourself a 33 degree Mason, you cannot possibly know the secrets involved in that degree from personal experience, but can you give us your own thoughts/speculations on what you feel may be involved in the 33rd degree? Do Freemasons speak to each other about such matters?

[amason]

see, this is the bit that bothers us, who does the inviting? and why would some be chosen and not others? we find many people in very powerful positions, often elected positions, that are masons, what bothers us is whether or not the oaths they take supercede their responsibilities to the people they are meant to serve, because let's be honest, the governments of the world, despite what they say, do not serve the people.


Generally speaking, the 33rd degree is an invitation conferred as a result of 'Long Service' or 'Outstanding Service'. It could be said to be like a long service award as given to people in industry, civil service, that sort of thing.

I am not in a position to speculate as to whether the oaths supercede the responsibilities. All I will say is, it is still a masonic degree, and therefore is bound by the 'original' oaths taken as an Entered Apprentice FreeMason thru to Master Mason.

[tinmenace]

Listen fella, you are the one with the problem here. It is not a 'scripted' answer, it is a TRUE answer, or maybe you just don't understand THE TRUTH!!

And tell me, just why should I tell you our secrets, that would be me breaking the rules, and giving up that which I have sworn to protect. Have you never been given a secret?? You don't actually need to know our secrets in order to understand our reasons. What you need, is a sound mind, one that can reason! You are obviously not blessed with this. I am sorry for you, as I'll bet that Freemasonry is not the only thing to feel your wrath!

Don't get snippy because your chosen prison won't allow you to be a free person and speak freely. What I said was, don't call us ignorant because YOU won't give us the answers to our questions. Don't say stupid things like "you just don't understand". We're trying to understand! But you won't help us. So, don't insult our intelligence because you REFUSE TO HELP US UNDERSTAND. :rolleyes:

http://forums.spiritual-nature.com/Smileys/new/classic/icon_geezduh.gif

Bottom line is that you are a peon. You don't know anything about this insane social club you belong to. As long as they continue to dangle the carrot and stroke you under your pathetic apron, you're an obedient fool to their rules.

This is going round in circles. I'm done with you. Bring me someone who can answer some questions...:rolleyes:

[amason]

Don't get snippy because your chosen prison won't allow you to be a free person and speak freely. What I said was, don't call us ignorant because YOU won't give us the answers to our questions. Don't say stupid things like "you just don't understand". We're trying to understand! But you won't help us. So, don't insult our intelligence because you REFUSE TO HELP US UNDERSTAND. :rolleyes:

http://forums.spiritual-nature.com/Smileys/new/classic/icon_geezduh.gif

Bottom line is that you are a peon. You don't know anything about this insane social club you belong to. As long as they continue to dangle the carrot and stroke you under your pathetic apron, you're an obedient fool to their rules.

This is going round in circles. I'm done with you. Bring me someone who can answer some questions...:rolleyes:





In order to be able to insult a person's intelligence, it is a requisite that they have some to insult.

As a matter of interest, exactly what age are you? have you been around long enough to quiz people the way you do?

[amason]

Don't get snippy because your chosen prison won't allow you to be a free person and speak freely. What I said was, don't call us ignorant because YOU won't give us the answers to our questions. Don't say stupid things like "you just don't understand". We're trying to understand! But you won't help us. So, don't insult our intelligence because you REFUSE TO HELP US UNDERSTAND. :rolleyes:

http://forums.spiritual-nature.com/Smileys/new/classic/icon_geezduh.gif

Bottom line is that you are a peon. You don't know anything about this insane social club you belong to. As long as they continue to dangle the carrot and stroke you under your pathetic apron, you're an obedient fool to their rules.

This is going round in circles. I'm done with you. Bring me someone who can answer some questions...:rolleyes:





Are you one these who believe the world is run by 'reptoids'

[nulltid]

Bring me someone who can answer some questions...:rolleyes:


What makes you think you are in a position to DEMAND answers? Perhaps if you could drop the accusations and ask smarter questions we could all benefit from this?

You are well aware of the fact that they cannot and will not reveal information pertaining the secrets they have taken an oath to protect.

So why waste valuable questions on something you know will only produce non-satisfying answers?

[tinmenace]

In order to be able to insult a person's intelligence, it is a requisite that they have some to insult.

As a matter of interest, exactly what age are you? have you been around long enough to quiz people the way you do?

*Gasp* And I'm a woman! :eek: Forgive me for disrespecting your cockness...NOT! :rolleyes::D

http://forums.spiritual-nature.com/Smileys/new/classic/icon_haha.gif http://forums.spiritual-nature.com/Smileys/new/classic/icon_gigglepup.gif


http://forums.spiritual-nature.com/Smileys/new/classic/icon_byee.gif

[amason]

*Gasp* And I'm a woman! :eek: Forgive me for disrespecting your cockness...NOT! :rolleyes::D




Yes, I am aware of that, but you placed yourself in a position where I felt the need to know. And as Nulltid has rightly said, who are you to be demanding answers to questions you know full well we cannot answer.

[tinmenace]

Yes, I am aware of that, but you placed yourself in a position where I felt the need to know. And as Nulltid has rightly said, who are you to be demanding answers to questions you know full well we cannot answer.

I am me and I am free to ask questions and expect honest answers. I don't need your permission to know the truth. I am not even in the same vicinity as your self-imposed prison. Unlike you, I don't place limits on myself when it comes to information. I am entitled to ALL there is to know. It's my right as a free and sovereign being. You, on the other hand, are a prisoner inside a system that has decided that you are neither ready nor worthy of information, thus limiting and controlling your perspective and opinions.

You are not free. You are the Freemasons' peon bitch. You cannot even speak freely, and clearly you cannot think freely.

You know what the worst part is? You uphold this system of imprisonment. It's remarkable really.

But like I said earlier, you are worthless to me as an information source, so I won't interact with you on this subject any further.

:) Bye

[mike martin]

Many people have speculated that its only FMs who are admitted into the top 3 degress in Freemasonry (33rd degree being the highest recognised officially) who ever have access to the REAL secrets of Fremasonry.
I had to read this question twice and i'm still not sure I understand. If by FMs you mean Freemasons then you're quite right as only a Freemason is admitted into any degree whether they be the 3 Degrees or any of what we know to be the Appendant Orders

I have no idea what degrees you are, but I was wondering if you can you shed some some light on this for us from your own perspective please?

There are only a few Obediences (such as Le droit humain) / Grand Lodges that have a system that progress through to the 33rd Degree (although 33rd is honourary) as if they are one system. The vast majority of Grand Lodges go to the Third Degree (Master Mason) and thatis the top. It is possible to become a Grand Masterwith only the Third Degree.

However, once you are a Master Mason (top dog) you can choose to join further Orders such as Royal Arch, Ancient & Accepted Rite and Allied Masonic Degrees by doing so you can gain further Degrees.

However and this is really important, a 32nd Degree Mason does not in anyway outrank a Master Mason. In the same way that me being a Royal Arch Mason or a Mark Master Mason does not rank me any higher than a Master Mason. The further degrees only go deeper into the source material of the first three.

The whole idea that the Degrees are in some way a "management structure" of Freemasonry is the domain of non-Masons alone, we Freemasons know full well that it is not true. A for instance, in England the gaggle of degrees that are known as the York Rite in America are all separate Bodies and carry no numbers at all. Although they are comparitive to the 33 degrees that everyone goes on about.

Does that help at all?

Mike

[mike martin]

see, this is the bit that bothers us, who does the inviting? and why would some be chosen and not others? we find many people in very powerful positions, often elected positions, that are masons, what bothers us is whether or not the oaths they take supercede their responsibilities to the people they are meant to serve, because let's be honest, the governments of the world, despite what they say, do not serve the people.

This is where the paranoia has been able to creep into your understanding of things.

I have provided a link earler in this thread where you can read for yourself the Obligations we take. To paraphrase none of our Obliations put any person below the level of another freemason wher it counts, we are instructed to not let Freemasonry interfere in our Civic or moral duties.

See I do wonder sometimes why you're not as worried about members of Golf clubs. Golf Clubs tend to be by invitation only or if you can apply by vote. they are far more elitist by dint of the fact that they cost thousands of pounds to join and remain a member of and they have no rules about not making business deals.

Mike

[amason]

I am me and I am free to ask questions and expect honest answers. I don't need your permission to know the truth. I am not even in the same vicinity as your self-imposed prison. Unlike you, I don't place limits on myself when it comes to information. I am entitled to ALL there is to know. It's my right as a free and sovereign being. You, on the other hand, are a prisoner inside a system that has decided that you are neither ready nor worthy of information, thus limiting and controlling your perspective and opinions.

You are not free. You are the Freemasons' peon bitch. You cannot even speak freely, and clearly you cannot think freely.

You know what the worst part is? You uphold this system of imprisonment. It's remarkable really.

But like I said earlier, you are worthless to me as an information source, so I won't interact with you on this subject any further.

:) Bye




No, you are wrong! you are NOT entitled to ALL there is to know. There are things that we all are barred from knowing. Take 'official secrets' for instance, does being a 'free and sovereign being entitle you to these secrets, NO it doesn't. And there are many more things you don't have entitlement to besides these.

It is not a system of imprisonment I uphold, it is a value of life. You of all people should realise this, as I have been reading your web pages and blogs.
What you are saying and demanding here is a direct contradiction of that in your pages.

I am quite happy to disengage this conversation with you, as you obviously hold no real values and lack the understanding required to be able to allow us our beliefs.

[limelady]

Thanks Mike and amason - your responses are greatly appreciated. :)

[lumukanda]

yeah, but golf clubs don't take solemn oaths not to divulge the technique behind that killer swing.

i'll be honest, i don't like the secrecy, we see it in government, in religions, in clubs, to me it seems like these people are saying either that we are not worthy or are not important enough to know the whole truth about any given subject, I'll ask the question, what is the big secret? a secret is there to hide something, what are you hiding? why are you hiding it? i know i can learn a hell of a lot about what goes in a lodge, what the rituals 'mean', but i can't learn it all without becoming a mason? why not? once again, what is the big secret, because if it's all 'nothing to be alarmed about', why is it hidden?

to add : you have chosen your path, i don't agree with it, but i respect your right to make that choice, i'm simply stating my point of view.

[mike martin]

No, you are wrong! you are NOT entitled to ALL there is to know. There are things that we all are barred from knowing. Take 'official secrets' for instance, does being a 'free and sovereign being entitle you to these secrets, NO it doesn't. And there are many more things you don't have entitlement to besides these.
I'd say leave her alone, I think she is justtrying (successfully) to get a rise out of you :D

Mike

[mike martin]

yeah, but golf clubs don't take solemn oaths not to divulge the technique behind that killer swing.

i'll be honest, i don't like the secrecy, we see it in government, in religions, in clubs, to me it seems like these people are saying either that we are not worthy or are not important enough to know the whole truth about any given subject, I'll ask the question, what is the big secret? a secret is there to hide something, what are you hiding? why are you hiding it? i know i can learn a hell of a lot about what goes in a lodge, what the rituals 'mean', but i can't learn it all without becoming a mason? why not? once again, what is the big secret, because if it's all 'nothing to be alarmed about', why is it hidden?

There's the thing and going back to what I wrote earlier, point me at what you think is secret and i'll try to address it.

The bit about not being able to know it all unless you're a mason is pretty obvious, if you just stop and think without letting it be a "secret" issue for you.

I'll try to explain by using a totally unrelated idea. When I was young I was an Army Cadet in my teens I dreamt of doing a parachute jump. I read stuff about it went to events and watch videos and I knew all there was possible about doing a jump BUT it wasn't till the first time I jumped out of the back of a plane that I really understood it all. It was the actual first hand personal experience that filled in the gaps that I didn't know were there.

When I was Initiated, it was the same. I knew all the history and what the Lodge got up to but what I didn't know about was the bond of fellowship that comes from a shared experience like Initiation.

that's all it is we call it the "Mystic Tie", it's all so way less sxy than taking over the world i'm afraid.

Mike

[amason]

yeah, but golf clubs don't take solemn oaths not to divulge the technique behind that killer swing.

i'll be honest, i don't like the secrecy, we see it in government, in religions, in clubs, to me it seems like these people are saying either that we are not worthy or are not important enough to know the whole truth about any given subject, I'll ask the question, what is the big secret? a secret is there to hide something, what are you hiding? why are you hiding it? i know i can learn a hell of a lot about what goes in a lodge, what the rituals 'mean', but i can't learn it all without becoming a mason? why not? once again, what is the big secret, because if it's all 'nothing to be alarmed about', why is it hidden?

Yes you can. Mike Martin has already stated that he spent years prior to actually joining a lodge just learning about Freemasonry. This was some years ago, before www. was as good as it is now. If he can do it, then so can everybody else if they have a mind to.

In order to continue my career in Freemasonry, I can go to instruction lodges. I don't always have the time because of my work, so I supplement my learning by using the internet, and reading the necessary books. I don't have to provide any form of ID when I go to buy these books, they are not limited to certain purchasers, anyone can buy them. So you see, there is nothing sinister about it, if there were then there would be greater restrictions on the availability of material.

[tinmenace]

No, you are wrong! you are NOT entitled to ALL there is to know. There are things that we all are barred from knowing.


Oh yeah? Says who? :rolleyes:

[amason]

Oh yeah? Says who? :rolleyes:







Says society, the laws of the land............shall I continue. Just why do you think you have the right to know all about us and our ways. What or who gives you the right to demand knowledge such as this?

Anyway, I thought you didn't want to talk to me any more!

[tinmenace]

Says society, the laws of the land............shall I continue. Just why do you think you have the right to know all about us and our ways. What or who gives you the right to demand knowledge such as this?

Anyway, I thought you didn't want to talk to me any more!

What society says that I'm not entitled to know ALL there is to know? What laws of the land say that I am not entitled to know ALL there is to know?

And who do they think THEY are to tell me that I am not entitled to know ALL there is to know?

[amason]

What society says that I'm not entitled to know ALL there is to know? What laws of the land say that I am not entitled to know ALL there is to know?

And who do they think THEY are to tell me that I am not entitled to know ALL there is to know?





Ah, I'm sorry your highness, I didn't realise you were above all these laws.

[manchurian_candidate]

Ah, I'm sorry your highness, I didn't realise you were above all these laws.

I can see what Tinmenace is saying, why should any knowledge that affects our society be hidden from us? Which I have to say is a fair point.

[nulltid]

Some questions:
Why is it that freemasonry is advertised as a secret society with a sinister agenda? Who stands to benefit from that association?

What is secret about it, except it secrets?

It is not a secret society, but a society with secrets. Are they not entitled to have secrets? Are you?

[nulltid]

I can see what Tinmenace is saying, why should any knowledge that affects our society be hidden from us? Which I have to say is a fair point.

And how do you know that the knowledge affects society at large? Could be some metaphysical knowledge on a personal level.

[manchurian_candidate]

And how do you know that the knowledge affects society at large? Could be some metaphysical knowledge on a personal level.

As I said yesterday - not arguing with you. I meant the question IF the knowledge affected society.

[amason]

As I said yesterday - not arguing with you. I meant the question IF the knowledge affected society.


As has been stated here already, a lot of the 'secrets' are to do with identification. There is a wealth of media available to explain this.
We are talking here of signs and tokens, all of which are given according to the degree you reach. As an AE freemason, you are given a sign, password and a grip to identify yourself as such to others freemasons. When you progress to the next level, then further signs and grips are given. This goes on through your progression in the degrees. Originally, these same signs and grips etc. were given to enable the AE, FC or MM to gain access to his wages for example, to see that he got his dues.

Nowadays, they are symbolic.

These are the kind of secrets we are bound to protect. Now I fail to see how this sort of thing can influence society.

[lenejento]

Hello Mike, thanks for answering questions, although you can not answer all.

I have a lot I would want to ask and will probably think of more questions later. I haven't done much research at all on the masons/freemasonry except reading David Icke, and it has been a long time since I read his books. So I apologise if my knowledge is limited and my questions naive.
I have taken much greater interest in spiritual truth rather than research the conspiracy lately.

Anyway

1.What's your degree in freemasonry?

2.I think I read on your forum (thefreemason.com) somewhere that you think "conspiracy theorists" are more "mainstream", and that you are free-thinkers, what do you mean by this?

3. Why is there so much seemingly freemasonic symbolism everywhere, not only out in the open(there is a big eagle statue in our town centre for example), but also hidden subliminally in tv-programmes/ads/music videos and films and even on money (the dollar bill with obvious symbology and even a cleverly hidden owl in the corner) if freemasons are not intenting to somehow mind control, or to show the people who is in control? If it is not freemasons doing this, who is it?

So let's go by, what you seem to believe, that freemasonry has nothing to do with tptb (the powers that be) who is "ruling" this planet, what do you think of tbtb? Do you think they are doing a good job, and have the peoples interest and happiness at heart? Or do you think there is a more sinister agenda? And if so, who do you think is behind it and why?

[lumukanda]

what if a judge were to shake a prosecutors hand in a given way, would that not identify himself as a mason and that he would give preference to him? thats why i asked about whether a freemasonic oath supercedes the oath the judge made to uphold the law?

[amason]

what if a judge were to shake a prosecutors hand in a given way, would that not identify himself as a mason and that he would give preference to him? thats why i asked about whether a freemasonic oath supercedes the oath the judge made to uphold the law?

Yes, it could identify him. But if the Judge were to favour the prosecutor, or even the defence, regardless of the evidence, then the judge would be breaking the rules, not just of freemasonry, but of the law. I am not saying this doesn't go on, I am sure it does in some instances, but it is not not just in freemasonry.

[lumukanda]

corruption is found everywhere, you can't be saying that it never happens in freemasonry, i mean look at P2, they didn't think about breaking the law.

[amason]

corruption is found everywhere, you can't be saying that it never happens in freemasonry, i mean look at P2, they didn't think about breaking the law.


Iv'e just said I am not saying it doesn't happen.

P2 was a long time ago, and it was something the majority of freemasons were very embarrased about.

[lumukanda]

sorry, i misread your post.

[amason]

corruption is found everywhere, you can't be saying that it never happens in freemasonry, i mean look at P2, they didn't think about breaking the law.

As I have said, most freemasons were embarassed and outraged by this ILLEGAL lodge.

Here is a site which tries to put a few things in perspective, and help to heal, or at least this page does.

http://www.masonicinfo.com/p2_lodge.htm

[dangermouse]

Interesting stuff there, always good to get both sides of opinions

[grenadene]

Fair point about how all club members may show favouritism to other members, however, how many clubs are as global and encompassing as freemasonry and how many clubs have such a socially powerful membership?

[mike martin]

1.What's your degree in freemasonry?
let's put it like this if I tell you that I am a Grand Tiler of Solomon, would that mean anything to you?
2.I think I read on your forum (thefreemason.com) somewhere that you think "conspiracy theorists" are more "mainstream", and that you are free-thinkers, what do you mean by this?
Nope you may have seen where I have asserted that the leaders of conspiracy theoretics are out to make money in one way or nother.
3. Why is there so much seemingly freemasonic symbolism everywhere, not only out in the open(there is a big eagle statue in our town centre for example), but also hidden subliminally in tv-programmes/ads/music videos and films and even on money (the dollar bill with obvious symbology and even a cleverly hidden owl in the corner) if freemasons are not intenting to somehow mind control, or to show the people who is in control? If it is not freemasons doing this, who is it?

Hmmm, so are you one of those people who see Freemason's everywhere? Eagles are not a specifically masonic symbol uless they are double headed as employed by the AASR, but even then it is only borrowed from earlier symbolism.

The old "owl" thing always makes me giggle, owls don't appear in masonic symbolism they do however appear in ancient greek mythology and are a character in ancient egyptian heiroglyphics. I know this because the owl is the letter M, my own initials as I found out in egypt a couple of years ago..

The eye is also another oldie but goldie. Not every eye has anything to do with Freemasonry for example the adjet eye is not used by Freemasonry.

The symbol on the dollar bill has nothing to do with Freemasonry it is using the eye as the symbol of providence.

The eye symbol that we use is borrowed from the Biblical concept of God and is based on a line in our ritual which talks about the fact that God is everywhere and sees every thing we do good or bad. The all-seeing eye of God was used long before Freemasonry borrowed it. Now if you see an eye like this (below) you can usually be sure that it is of Masonic origin

http://media.argentina.indymedia.org/uploads/2004/12/all_seeing_eye.gif

So let's go by, what you seem to believe, that freemasonry has nothing to do with tptb (the powers that be) who is "ruling" this planet, what do you think of tbtb? Do you think they are doing a good job, and have the peoples interest and happiness at heart? Or do you think there is a more sinister agenda? And if so, who do you think is behind it and why?
I just, like everyone else, know that there are inept political parties ruling my Country and seemingly trying to run it into the ground. However, this has nothing to do with being a Freemason.

Mike

[mike martin]

what if a judge were to shake a prosecutors hand in a given way, would that not identify himself as a mason and that he would give preference to him? thats why i asked about whether a freemasonic oath supercedes the oath the judge made to uphold the law?

This isn't a full answer but it goes someway to answering. I had a friend who was a Magistrate and about 10 years ago a bloke was in front of him for drunk driving. No accident or anything just go caught and breathalysed on his way home.

The defendant was trying to avoid the ban that he had earned himself by saying it would affect his work and family etc and according to my friend he was going to get just a big fine and points on his licence right up until the bloke actally gave him the Entered Apprentice sign across the Court room. My friend was so enraged that this man would try to use his membership in such a way that he added a 12 month ban back on to the fine and points.

I would just say that sometimes what you are told about us Masons is not always quite as it actually is. We are instructed to be subservient to and to uphold the Law not only of our country of birth but any land where we may find ourselves living.

Mike

[mike martin]

Fair point about how all club members may show favouritism to other members, however, how many clubs are as global and encompassing as freemasonry and how many clubs have such a socially powerful membership?

I say again the concept of Freemasonry is global but each freemason belongs to one Grand Lodge there is no over arching World Grand Lodge. The concept that we Freemasons are members of a club that is world-wide is innaccurate at best.

A Freemason in the US owes no more allegiance to me than I do to a Freemason from the Grand Lodges of Scotland or Ireland.

Mike

[amason]

Fair point about how all club members may show favouritism to other members, however, how many clubs are as global and encompassing as freemasonry and how many clubs have such a socially powerful membership?


So we happen to be a bit bigger than other 'clubs', is that a problem. As it happens, there are 'clubs' almost as big, take the Lions for example, they are worldwide, The Rotary Club is equally so.

[lenejento]

You are wiggling around my questions. Ok, so let's try again...

let's put it like this if I tell you that I am a Grand Tiler of Solomon, would that mean anything to you?
Just tell me the degree please?


Nope you may have seen where I have asserted that the leaders of conspiracy theoretics are out to make money in one way or nother.
Just tell me why you think you are more freethinking than me please?


Hmmm, so are you one of those people who see Freemason's everywhere? Eagles are not a specifically masonic symbol uless they are double headed as employed by the AASR, but even then it is only borrowed from earlier symbolism.

The old "owl" thing always makes me giggle, owls don't appear in masonic symbolism they do however appear in ancient greek mythology and are a character in ancient egyptian heiroglyphics. I know this because the owl is the letter M, my own initials as I found out in egypt a couple of years ago..

The eye is also another oldie but goldie. Not every eye has anything to do with Freemasonry for example the adjet eye is not used by Freemasonry.

The symbol on the dollar bill has nothing to do with Freemasonry it is using the eye as the symbol of providence.

The eye symbol that we use is borrowed from the Biblical concept of God and is based on a line in our ritual which talks about the fact that God is everywhere and sees every thing we do good or bad. The all-seeing eye of God was used long before Freemasonry borrowed it. Now if you see an eye like this (below) you can usually be sure that it is of Masonic origin

http://media.argentina.indymedia.org/uploads/2004/12/all_seeing_eye.gif

Yes, I am one of those that thought that the eagle, the owl, and the all seeing eye is some of the many freemasonic symols. So answer this: who is displaying these symbols then everywhere? Who is the behemian club and are they freemasons?
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/Occult1.gif
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/Occult2.jpg
Their logo is an owl.
Is this all a setup, or, who do you think these people are?


I just, like everyone else, know that there are inept political parties ruling my Country and seemingly trying to run it into the ground. However, this has nothing to do with being a Freemason.
So you're a conspiracy theorist too?:p

Mike[/QUOTE]

[weston white]

What is P2 referring to?

[weston white]

I once saw this documantary where they followed of few guys who wanted to be freemasons. It was all about freethinking... but the reporter keeps questioning and when you watch it it was obvious....most of them actually hoped to gain financial profit out of it somehow...and ofcourse it made them look interesting.

They don,t even know what the ritual is to end up as a freemason. How ignorant can you be....taking part in a ritual and not knowing what it does or is....really....so sad!

Laff, they will just end up getting their money sucked out of they pockets by their brethren.

[tinmenace]

And how do you know that the knowledge affects society at large? Could be some metaphysical knowledge on a personal level.

Which in turn affects everyone around you.

[tinmenace]

Ah, I'm sorry your highness, I didn't realise you were above all these laws.

You still didn't answer my question, so I'll ask you again;

Which society says that I'm not entitled to know ALL there is to know, which laws exactly? Also, WHY do such laws exist? And, who do the makers of such laws think they are to impose such laws on me?

[weston white]

I found some good news on that forum!! :D

http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=6502

This is supersweet!

[damagedbrainn]

Ah, I'm sorry your highness, I didn't realise you were above all these laws.

Laws like "No Chicks Allowed!"

[tinmenace]

:D

[amason]

You still didn't answer my question, so I'll ask you again;

Which society says that I'm not entitled to know ALL there is to know, which laws exactly? Also, WHY do such laws exist? And, who do the makers of such laws think they are to impose such laws on me?





With an attitude like yours, I cannot even begin to compete. You are are obviously oblivious to any and all laws that you are bound to.

When you grow up, and realise that you are not the one and only, give me a call, and we can resume this conversation. Until then, just give it a rest, and leave it alone.

[amason]

You are wiggling around my questions. Ok, so let's try again...


Just tell me the degree please?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mike martin
let's put it like this if I tell you that I am a Grand Tiler of Solomon, would that mean anything to you?

Just tell me the degree please?


Hey man, look it up! it's not like it is hidden from you.
What's the matter, the guy answered your question, now you get up and find out what he means. Why should he do it all for you.

[tinmenace]

With an attitude like yours, I cannot even begin to compete. You are are obviously oblivious to any and all laws that you are bound to.

When you grow up, and realise that you are not the one and only, give me a call, and we can resume this conversation. Until then, just give it a rest, and leave it alone.

Typical :rolleyes:

You are unable to answer my questions without questioning your own belief system, so you opt to cop out. You have the mind of a slave, and this is why you cannot truthfully answer these questions - you cannot even begin to comprehend true freedom. ;)

[amason]

Yes, I am one of those that thought that the eagle, the owl, and the all seeing eye is some of the many freemasonic symols. So answer this: who is displaying these symbols then everywhere? Who is the behemian club and are they freemasons?


So you never did any form of history at school then! And, you have never come across any of the 'Alternative / Complimentary' medicine practices around the world!

These symbols are used worldwide for a whole number of reasons.

[beldazar]

amason, if you do your own research, you will find that history taught at school is the biggest load of lies out there! Welcome to the forum by the way :D. I bear you no ill will, we are all in this together, I greeted the jehovahs witnesses who knocked on my door with the greatest respects, I even told them that they must have a good heart to join them in the first place. We have all been lied to and manipulated, nobody has been left out.

[kasalt]

And tell me, just why should I tell you our secrets, that would be me breaking the rules, and giving up that which I have sworn to protect.

“The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.” - John F. Kennedy

“Secrecy, once accepted, becomes an addiction.” - Edward Teller

"Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny." - Robert A. Heinlein

“Where secrecy or mystery begins, vice or roguery is not far off.” - Samuel Johnson

“Secrecy is the freedom tyrants dream of.” - Bill Moyers

“The best weapon of a dictatorship is secrecy, but the best weapon of a democracy should be the weapon of openness.” - Niels Bohr

"Everything secret degenerates, even the administration of justice; nothing is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and publicity." - Lord Acton

[coshh]

To the masons:

I am still a bit hung up on womens issues I suppose so I thought I would ask a question about this "co-masonry" thing which I had heard of but didn't really know much about (and I think that its not really the same thing tbh as masonry) until I went and looked on your forum.

Just skimming your forum I have noticed a whole bunch of arguments, where co-masonry seems to demonstrate itself to be more - or more openly - "mystical" I suppose. Which lives up to a common stereotype about women being more interested in the "spiritual" (I hear that the Talmud actually prohibits women being as involved in religion precisely because they tend to become too involved in it and lose touch with ordinary life and their day to day mundane obligations! Although I am sure a feminist would interpret that as an excuse to keep spiritual power out of the hands of women).

I guess though - for whatever reason I am reminded of Julius Evola and René Guénon and that whole shower and what they thought of women and femininity, a complex subject in its own right which needn't (as much as I do love the topic) be gotten deeply into.

I was told on the other thread by thelonious there was no metaphysical reason for women to not be masons - but to me - as a women I feel I never could be one even were it possible and I think that is for metaphysical reasons. Because the expression of masculine spirituality - even if mainstream masonry is less "spiritual" than this co-masonry thing - is very different to female spirituality.

And I am also reminded, of the fear of the cthonic that the traditionalists (although heaven forbid Guénon notice from wherever he may be now that I am associating him with Evola! He'd turn in his grave!) had. I wonder to what degree this is an issue here?
The female propensity for the mystical is (its argued) a propensity for an earthy cthonic mysticism which distracts Man from the true (and perhaps more rational and solid) heights he can attain.

Do you think there is any truth in this? A genuine danger, rather than mere inconvenience, from women and female spirituality in the context of a male institution? Because I didn't really think of it that way, until I read some of the posts by whistler which honestly made me almost think that was exactly what was happening there. Especially when I came across threads referencing Blavatsky and her ilk.

I don't know, and I am not saying it is, because I do not - on any level at all claim to understand either masonry or co-masonry or anything like that (but that's why I am asking questions since that's a major way generally people can learn things ;)). I am not accusing whistler of anything or co-masonry of anything. I am just wondering if there is anything in the concept or if its just silly misogynist ideas which my own feminine propensity for mysticism has gotten me caught up in :p

[auntienana]

Dear Mr. Mason

The fact that you are a 3rd degree mason reveals volumes.

With this in mind it follows that you can only represent with absolute certainty the first 2 degrees.
To what extent you know the 3rd degree is anybody's guess, including yours.

To be generous and grossly inaccurate, this means that you would be certain of 6% of the knowledge of the 33 degrees.
Extrapolating from that...you would only know 0.5 % of the knowledge of 360 degrees. Again, this is only a gross estimate.

With all due respect, the saying comes to mind: Why send a boy to do a man's job?
In other words, the limited knowledge that you represent is...well....useless.

Because your knowledge is limited to the 3rd degree your authority on the credibility of what conspiricists have to say is worthless. Any comments you have about the other levels can only be construed as anecdotal.

Secret rituals are vastly different than a benign identification process.
Practicing handshakes to identify a person's place in the organization is harmless. I agree with you on this point.
However, these handshakes cannot be placed in the same category as these ancient Masonic rituals that you alluded to earlier on in your comments.
To place these two practices in the same sentence is misleading.

Everyone and their dog knows that the first 3 degrees are the front.
This is not a spellbinding revelation.
Remarkably good people, as yourself, and their good deeds only serve as the smokescreen for the underlying malevolency.
The greater the strength of this screen, instituted by the righteous acts of the first three degrees, the easier it is to hide the Luciferian head.

It is not my intent to be rude.

-------------------------------

Other people's failure to inform themselves and to not
see what is happening before their eyes, does not make
me a whacko. ~~~

[auntienana]

It is interesting to see that even in as little as the 3rd degree the art of deception is so well developed as illustrated by the vague and limited scope of these non-answers to a simple question.

I doubt if you even know that this is what you are doing. I illustrate one example:


Originally Posted by tinmenace:
Why do you have to swear on your life never to reveal the secrets? What secrets could be so important that it will cost you your life if you reveal them?

"This is part of the ancient rituals, and is now more symbolic. If the 'secrets' were given to those who hadn't earned the right to them, then the whole structure of the day would have crumbled. By that, I mean the structure to which the rituals etc. appertained."

Deception.
Again "now more symbolic" was not "now symbolic". Which means there is still a literal oath(s) in existence. The question was not about symbolic oaths. It was about the literal ones. Big difference. Also, it is crazy to kill someone for revealing a set of "handshakes" no matter what the structure of the day is.

No matter how you try to twist and turn, your answer to this says that yes, your organization participates in murder. I tried to make this point clear by my earlier detailed analysis of this non-answer. Turning the focus around and accusing me of "taking your words, and dissecting them for my own means" is not an answer.

Bad is good.
This is the crux of the matter which you refuse to directly acknowledge: your organization kills people for revealing ritual secrets. This is called murder. No matter how you try to sugar coat it, the fact remains.
Justifying murder under the cover of the noble intention of keeping a secret doesn't cut it.


Saying one thing and doing the opposite.

YOU are the one who with false humility constantly qualified your answers by saying you had a difficult time with the command of the English language.

"Okay, maybe I could have chosen different wording, but then my ability to do that would negate my previous statement, would it not."

You are able to choose different wording after you make a statement. The fact that your answers lose credibility if you have to retrace your steps by choosing different words again is neither bad nor good. Its just the way it is. Its not a personal attack against you. Its just an unfortunate consequence..

YOU are the one who with false integrity said you would not judge other's opinions.
" I enjoy educational discussion such as this, and I will not knock your opinions"

Yet you judge my opinions as some kind of insidious agenda when I was just trying to explain how your answers are twisted.
"Taking my words...and dissecting them for your own means is clever!"

YOU are the one who declared yourself as the spokesperson to our questions.
If I am able to answer your questions... then I am happy to do so.

Yet when you are exposed for a vague answer your response is this:
" I am don't have to justify my words just to satisfy your ignorance."

Which brings me to my final comment:
Your self appointed representation for Masonic thought is interesting in that you refer to me as "ignorant". How big of you to come to enlighten those of us who are ignorant, uninitiated, the unwashed masses, the profane, the "them" in "us and them". What other names does your organization have for us?



I am not trying to offend you, I am trying to reflect to you how you are coming across.
As I said earlier, I recognize that you are a remarkable, sincere and good-hearted man,
(as most Masons start out to be IMO)

[cruise4]

"Take 'official secrets' for instance, does being a 'free and sovereign being entitle you to these secrets"

Could you list a few 'Official Secrets' that we can agree should have been officially secret?

My starting postion is the term 'Official Secrets' is a contradiction. All things official must never ever be secret. Officials represent the people, so how can the people know if they are being represented correctly if their representatives are hiding things, as secrets. Its nonsense.

Secrets allows manipulation. You are either seeking this or supporting those that do. A genuinely good person would know this in the core of their being. Its the heart thats black. And thinks its white.

[amason]

Firstly, let me say thank you Beldazar for your sentiments.

Right, that's done, so now to the post.
You may not have read all of my earlier posts, which stated that I am not particularly literate when it comes to converting my thoughts and feelings to the written word, but I do my best. Therefore, as has already been noted, my wording sometimes comes over wrongly.
It is easy to take my wording and twist it any which you like, but that doesn't necessarily make you right either.


Auntienana

With all due respect, the saying comes to mind: Why send a boy to do a man's job?
In other words, the limited knowledge that you represent is...well....useless.

I am sorry you consider my knowledge to be useless, because it is probably all you are going to get here. Most Freemasons won't be remotely interested in even talking to you about the most basic elements because of your negative attitudes here. I, on the other hand, enjoy a good debate, and if I am able to throw any light for you, then I will do my best. It was once said to me, "the man who claims to know everything is a liar!" I don't know everything, I have already apologised for that here once or twice.

The bottom line here, as far as I can see, is that those of you here knocking us are no less brain washed than that which you think we are. Any arguments we put over are immediately shot down, so why should we waste any more time defending ourselves and freemasonry in particular. You ask questions, we answer them. You say that we are lying, or evading the issue. You don't know this for sure, but insist all the same. If you know we are lying, then you didn't need to ask the question in the first place!!

I know what I know. I believe what I believe. I do not live in a 'prison'. I have not been brainwashed. I am not told what to do. I do not have to go any further than I am in freemasonry, that is my choice.

You believe that which you will, I don't hold that against you, I don't knock you for that, so let us alone.

[nulltid]

And how do you know that the knowledge affects society at large? Could be some metaphysical knowledge on a personal level.


Which in turn affects everyone around you.


In a charitable way that is beneficial to society at large?

[beldazar]

Hi amason, Its easy for al of us to think that we are not in a prison but take a closer look. Children have to go to school at a certain time for a certain number of years, its the LAW! You will be arrested if you dont.
I have to have a card to take MY money out, taxes have to be paid and a huge amount goes to fund war against our will, our country goes to war against our wishes.
theres no such thing as free speech (check it up, its really shocking!) Fingerprints are taken upon arrest even when you are acquitted, you cannot voice your views in case you are deemed MAD (example, when I told a friend of mine what I had learnt about reptilian shape-shifters, she told me to be careful who I talk to as I may get my kids taken off me!!!) Parents in America have had their children taken off them when they have refused to have them vaccinated,
There is no freedom of movement, passports are needed more and more each day, if I wish to even fly in my own country, I need one,. All land is owned by someone or something, (this is OUR WORLD)
Anyone with a different view on life can be deemed insane, locked up against their will and forcibly drugged. We are poisoned with flouride and very important information regarding flouride is with held from us to take away our choice (if we saw the truth about flouride, NOBODY would want it, the evidence is out there, you just have to take a look)
On one hand we are told there will be a food shortage due to the so-called overpopulation, this is so wrong, there are absolutely tonnes of food chucked out every day because supermarkets arent allowed to sell at a reduced rate, they want to make their money, why would they want to give away food when we all have to eat?
The cure for cancer was supposedly found several years ago and was kept under wraps, too much money is made on the drugs to ease it.
People are encouraged to keep busy so they dont have time to think, even the middle class work hard and only have a few weeks off a year, we have been turned into clockwork soldiers.
The adverts on tv reflect so much materialism, have you noticed that a simple product for a bathroom cleaner takes place in a classy bathroom, it certainly doesnt represent the standard bathroom where I come from.
Amason, I could go on, but as I said in my last post, there is no "us" and "you lot." You may come across some animosity towards you but that is because we have covered a lot of research into freemasonry and resentments have built up, of course you will defend yourself, people DO that! We all have to defend our beliefs one time or another :)
I have been to look at your forum and you get the same kind of personality clashes there and different points of view, perhaps not as widespread as you get here though. Please understand that the majority who have argued with you are only trying to help you and everyone else,
I have my own set of problems such as tring to persuade my mum not to have the flu jab, steering them away from flouride etc....I cant make them turn to my point of view even when I have looked into evey angle and covered my ground. I can only give them the information and they will do what they like with it and thats all I can do.

[motox]

Hi amason, Its easy for al of us to think that we are not in a prison but take a closer look. Children have to go to school at a certain time for a certain number of years, its the LAW! You will be arrested if you dont.
I have to have a card to take MY money out, taxes have to be paid and a huge amount goes to fund war against our will, our country goes to war against our wishes.
theres no such thing as free speech (check it up, its really shocking!) Fingerprints are taken upon arrest even when you are acquitted, you cannot voice your views in case you are deemed MAD (example, when I told a friend of mine what I had learnt about reptilian shape-shifters, she told me to be careful who I talk to as I may get my kids taken off me!!!) Parents in America have had their children taken off them when they have refused to have them vaccinated,
There is no freedom of movement, passports are needed more and more each day, if I wish to even fly in my own country, I need one,. All land is owned by someone or something, (this is OUR WORLD)
Anyone with a different view on life can be deemed insane, locked up against their will and forcibly drugged. We are poisoned with flouride and very important information regarding flouride is with held from us to take away our choice (if we saw the truth about flouride, NOBODY would want it, the evidence is out there, you just have to take a look)
On one hand we are told there will be a food shortage due to the so-called overpopulation, this is so wrong, there are absolutely tonnes of food chucked out every day because supermarkets arent allowed to sell at a reduced rate, they want to make their money, why would they want to give away food when we all have to eat?
The cure for cancer was supposedly found several years ago and was kept under wraps, too much money is made on the drugs to ease it.
People are encouraged to keep busy so they dont have time to think, even the middle class work hard and only have a few weeks off a year, we have been turned into clockwork soldiers.
The adverts on tv reflect so much materialism, have you noticed that a simple product for a bathroom cleaner takes place in a classy bathroom, it certainly doesnt represent the standard bathroom where I come from.
Amason, I could go on, but as I said in my last post, there is no "us" and "you lot." You may come across some animosity towards you but that is because we have covered a lot of research into freemasonry and resentments have built up, of course you will defend yourself, people DO that! We all have to defend our beliefs one time or another :)
I have been to look at your forum and you get the same kind of personality clashes there and different points of view, perhaps not as widespread as you get here though. Please understand that the majority who have argued with you are only trying to help you and everyone else,
I have my own set of problems such as tring to persuade my mum not to have the flu jab, steering them away from flouride etc....I cant make them turn to my point of view even when I have looked into evey angle and covered my ground. I can only give them the information and they will do what they like with it and thats all I can do.

just how i would of put it could you please explain to the freemason about the microchip as i aint very good at putting it in words i know in my head but just dont have the words to explain it. http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/to...?topic_id=6635:o

[motox]

Join the thread:D http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=6635

sorry use this link

[kasalt]

Quote from Auntienana:
With all due respect, the saying comes to mind: Why send a boy to do a man's job? In other words, the limited knowledge that you represent is...well....useless.


I am sorry you consider my knowledge to be useless, because it is probably all you are going to get here. Most Freemasons won't be remotely interested in even talking to you about the most basic elements because of your negative attitudes here. I, on the other hand, enjoy a good debate, and if I am able to throw any light for you, then I will do my best. It was once said to me, "the man who claims to know everything is a liar!" I don't know everything, I have already apologised for that here once or twice.

The bottom line here, as far as I can see, is that those of you here knocking us are no less brain washed than that which you think we are. Any arguments we put over are immediately shot down, so why should we waste any more time defending ourselves and freemasonry in particular. You ask questions, we answer them. You say that we are lying, or evading the issue. You don't know this for sure, but insist all the same. If you know we are lying, then you didn't need to ask the question in the first place!!

I know what I know. I believe what I believe. I do not live in a 'prison'. I have not been brainwashed. I am not told what to do. I do not have to go any further than I am in freemasonry, that is my choice.

Allow me to reply by quoting Albert Pike:

"Masonry...conceals its secrets from all but the adepts and sages, or the elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve to be misled, to conceal the truth, which it calls light, from them and to draw them away from it...The blue degrees (that is the craft degrees) are but the outer courts or portico of the temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them, but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry...It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept." - Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma

"Amason", how can you explain the facts about Freemasonry to us, when according to Albert Pike, you as a Master Mason (3rd degree) have been misled as to its true meaning?

[lenejento]

Hey man, look it up! it's not like it is hidden from you.
What's the matter, the guy answered your question, now you get up and find out what he means. Why should he do it all for you.

It would be easier for mike if he just wrote his degree number instead of that sentence . It is about the most direct, easy to answer question, yet, he failed to answer it directly.

So you never did any form of history at school then! And, you have never come across any of the 'Alternative / Complimentary' medicine practices around the world!

These symbols are used worldwide for a whole number of reasons.

Hey! I got good grades in history! Didn't learn much about symbolism though:rolleyes:

[damagedbrainn]

It would be easier for mike if he just wrote his degree number instead of that sentence . It is about the most direct, easy to answer question, yet, he failed to answer it directly.

I believe "Grand Tiler of Solomon" is an irregular degree that has no numerical placement in the degree system....I guess you can think of it as extra-curricular. It's part of "Royal Arch" masonry...Allied Masonic Degrees...something like that.

[lenejento]

I believe "Grand Tiler of Solomon" is an irregular degree that has no numerical placement in the degree system....I guess you can think of it as extra-curricular. It's part of "Royal Arch" masonry...Allied Masonic Degrees...something like that.

Well, couldn't he just explain. I might find "inaccurate" info searching it up on the web. I wanted to hear it from him.

[eternal_spirit]

I reckon all these mason's aprons must turn brown when they do those initation ceromonies and the vows.

[eternal_spirit]

I think the initiation into Freemasonry is similar in ways to that of a Coven. "Perfect love perfect trust", as a knife is held close to one's skin. As a test and a threat if you break your "vows."

[paganus]

I think the initiation into Freemasonry is similar in ways to that of a Coven. "Perfect love perfect trust", as a knife is held close to one's skin. As a test and a threat if you break your "vows."

that part of the Wiccan initiation is not a threat.its a practical warning against trying to work with Divine powers and spiritual forces without love and trust.it would lead to bad workings and a state of fear.the only threats in Wicca were issued during initiation in the burning times.and then the threat was of divine retrebution on the betrayer,rather than an individual covener/s taking revenge

[mike martin]

You are wiggling around my questions. Ok, so let's try again.
No, I'm really not, you just don't understand my answers because you don't know anything about Freemasonry.

Just tell me the degree please?
I did, Grand Tiler of Solomon, unfortunately because you like everyone who gets their info on Freemasonry from CT sites won't know it because it doesn't have numbers for it's degrees. The funniest thing is the degrees of the AASR also have names the numbers only show their order not their rank.

Just tell me why you think you are more freethinking than me please?
Sorry I never said that! However, I know much much more about Freemasonry than you probably just because I've been one for 14 years, rather than just being someone reading flawed information about us.

Yes, I am one of those that thought that the eagle, the owl, and the all seeing eye is some of the many freemasonic symols. So answer this: who is displaying these symbols then everywhere? Who is the behemian club and are they freemasons?
I've got no idea who they are I've only read about them on Con Cen. I do know that they are not masonic though.

Their logo is an owl.
Is this all a setup, or, who do you think these people are?
As above

So you're a conspiracy theorist too?:p
My interest is in a real conspiracy. The fact that a bunch of unelected faceless people are pulling all the strings all across Europe and stealing the sovereignty of the countries that only signed up to share a common market place 30 odd years ago.

Mike

[tinmenace]

No, I'm really not, you just don't understand my answers because you don't know anything about Freemasonry.


How are we supposed to understand when you people won't explain it to us? :confused:

This is the same ol' same ol' bullshit we get from all the Freemasons that come on here. You all have this superiority complex, as though you're something so special. You want to "enlighten" us but you won't answer our questions in a direct and honest way. :rolleyes:

Typical Freemason mind games.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/3801/chat60lo9.gif

[nulltid]

Some questions for Mike Martin. (if you are still here)

What are your opinion on the illegal distribution of computer software? How do you see the open source community? And why do you chose expensive software over free and easy obtainable software that can produce just about the same results?

[edelweiss pirate]

How are we supposed to understand when you people won't explain it to us? :confused:

This is the same ol' same ol' bullshit we get from all the Freemasons that come on here. You all have this superiority complex, as though you're something so special. You want to "enlighten" us but you won't answer our questions in a direct and honest way. :rolleyes:

Typical Freemason mind games.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/3801/chat60lo9.gif



Seconded. Not only that but they rubbish anyone who says something about the craft which they do not like... yet they claim not to know the whole story... Also, remember that secondfamilyuk (who has been called 'mentally ill' by these mason twits ON THIS FORUM) says that their prime objective is simply to waste your time.

They're here just to troll in my opinion.... troll and waste everyone's time. I suggest we don't encourage them too much otherwise we won't be able to move for these creeps....

Take a look at the Above Top Secret forum for a chilling vision of the future of the forum if these rats find a niche here and start nesting.

[nulltid]

edelweiss pirate: You seem to be very full of hatred towards Mike Martin and amason? Why is that? What, exactly, have they done to deserve psychic harassment?

Are you´re judgement clouded by emotion? And when reading your thread (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14115) I can´t stop wondering what is the difference between you and the rambling of a religious fundamentalist.

[coshh]

Incase mike martin and amason missed it and are not simply ignoring it for whatever reason I will repeat myself.

To the masons:

I am still a bit hung up on womens issues I suppose so I thought I would ask a question about this "co-masonry" thing which I had heard of but didn't really know much about (and I think that its not really the same thing tbh as masonry) until I went and looked on your forum.

Just skimming your forum I have noticed a whole bunch of arguments, where co-masonry seems to demonstrate itself to be more - or more openly - "mystical" I suppose. Which lives up to a common stereotype about women being more interested in the "spiritual" (I hear that the Talmud actually prohibits women being as involved in religion precisely because they tend to become too involved in it and lose touch with ordinary life and their day to day mundane obligations! Although I am sure a feminist would interpret that as an excuse to keep spiritual power out of the hands of women).

I guess though - for whatever reason I am reminded of Julius Evola and René Guénon and that whole shower and what they thought of women and femininity, a complex subject in its own right which needn't (as much as I do love the topic) be gotten deeply into.

I was told on the other thread by thelonious there was no metaphysical reason for women to not be masons - but to me - as a women I feel I never could be one even were it possible and I think that is for metaphysical reasons. Because the expression of masculine spirituality - even if mainstream masonry is less "spiritual" than this co-masonry thing - is very different to female spirituality.

And I am also reminded, of the fear of the cthonic that the traditionalists (although heaven forbid Guénon notice from wherever he may be now that I am associating him with Evola! He'd turn in his grave!) had. I wonder to what degree this is an issue here?
The female propensity for the mystical is (its argued) a propensity for an earthy cthonic mysticism which distracts Man from the true (and perhaps more rational and solid) heights he can attain.

Do you think there is any truth in this? A genuine danger, rather than mere inconvenience, from women and female spirituality in the context of a male institution? Because I didn't really think of it that way, until I read some of the posts by whistler which honestly made me almost think that was exactly what was happening there. Especially when I came across threads referencing Blavatsky and her ilk.

I don't know, and I am not saying it is, because I do not - on any level at all claim to understand either masonry or co-masonry or anything like that (but that's why I am asking questions since that's a major way generally people can learn things ;)). I am not accusing whistler of anything or co-masonry of anything. I am just wondering if there is anything in the concept or if its just silly misogynist ideas which my own feminine propensity for mysticism has gotten me caught up in :p

[edelweiss pirate]

edelweiss pirate: You seem to be very full of hatred towards Mike Martin and amason? Why is that? What, exactly, have they done to deserve psychic harassment?

Are you´re judgement clouded by emotion? And when reading your thread (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14115) I can´t stop wondering what is the difference between you and the rambling of a religious fundamentalist.

I think you're on the wrong website.

Just research David Icke then come back to us.

Or better still.

Don't come back at all.

Our troll cage is full.

I've seen you intimidating new posters

:"I think you are a sham, and I detest everything you represent. You claim to be a voice of truth, but your words are full of lies."

Hopefully the MODERATORS are watching you closely.

[paganus]

that part of the Wiccan initiation is not a threat.its a practical warning against trying to work with Divine powers and spiritual forces without love and trust.it would lead to bad workings and a state of fear.the only threats in Wicca were issued during initiation in the burning times.and then the threat was of divine retrebution on the betrayer,rather than an individual covener/s taking revengeto the Masons:on this subject,i was looking at some info on the Mason's including your forum,and there do seem a fair few similarities between Wicca and Masonry.do you think they could have influenced each other,or have a common origin?(im a Wiccan,by the way)

[coshh]

to the Masons:on this subject,i was looking at some info on the Mason's including your forum,and there do seem a fair few similarities between Wicca and Masonry.do you think they could have influenced each other,or have a common origin?(im a Wiccan,by the way)

Gerald Gardner nicked a lot of ideas from the masons, and where he didn't nick them directly he took them from the OTO, Crowely and the Golden Dawn.

[paganus]

Gerald Gardner nicked a lot of ideas from the masons, and where he didn't nick them directly he took them from the OTO, Crowely and the Golden Dawn.but that only explains Gardnarian Wicca.their are similarites that show BEFORE Gardner published 'his' version of the BoS.as for Crowley he was a Wiccan way before he joined the OTO,and he had more influence on the OTO than they ever had on him.

[coshh]

but that only explains Gardnarian Wicca.their are similarites that show BEFORE Gardner published 'his' version of the BoS.as for Crowley he was a Wiccan way before he joined the OTO,and he had more influence on the OTO than they ever had on him.Please show me this pre-Gardinarian wicca I was under the impression he basically invented the religion. (This is what my parents who are wiccans taught me at any rate).

[paganus]

Please show me this pre-Gardinarian wicca I was under the impression he basically invented the religion. (This is what my parents who are wiccans taught me at any rate).google George Pilckerton(cunning george),or old dorothy or just google New Forest Coven.you'll find it goes back to before Gardner.Gardners BoS didnt appear until 1952 after the repeal of the Witchcraft Act.

[nulltid]

I think you're on the wrong website.

Just research David Icke then come back to us.

Or better still.

Don't come back at all.

Our troll cage is full.

I've seen you intimidating new posters

:"I think you are a sham, and I detest everything you represent. You claim to be a voice of truth, but your words are full of lies."

Hopefully the MODERATORS are watching you closely.

So I´m not entitled to have my own opinions around here? Is it not vital for our understanding of world affairs to question our beliefs and accepted truths on a regular basis?

[coshh]

google George Pilckerton(cunning george)Google finds nothing for either old dorothyQuite possibly not anyone significant, possibly made up, ceirtainly no proof of some long liniage of "real wicca" behind her or just google New Forest Coven.Again, no real evidence of some coherant religion called wicca existing before gardner drawn from this. Sure there were plenty of magical groups and so on around since at least the 1600's (well since long before then really) but wicca is something specific. you'll find it goes back to before Gardner.Gardners BoS didnt appear until 1952 after the repeal of the Witchcraft Act.
But "witchcraft" does not equal wicca.

[paganus]

Google finds nothing for either Quite possibly not anyone significant, possibly made up, ceirtainly no proof of some long liniage of "real wicca" behind her Again, no real evidence of some coherant religion called wicca existing before gardner drawn from this. Sure there were plenty of magical groups and so on around since at least the 1600's (well since long before then really) but wicca is something specific.
But "witchcraft" does not equal wicca.under the Witchcraft Act it would have.

[coshh]

under the Witchcraft Act it would have.No, under the witchcraft act wicca may have been a type of witchcraft but witchcraft would include way more than just wicca.

Course since wicca hadn't been invented yet... :p

[auntienana]

Firstly, let me say thank you Beldazar for your sentiments.

Right, that's done, so now to the post.
You may not have read all of my earlier posts, which stated that I am not particularly literate when it comes to converting my thoughts and feelings to the written word, but I do my best. Therefore, as has already been noted, my wording sometimes comes over wrongly.
It is easy to take my wording and twist it any which you like, but that doesn't necessarily make you right either.


Auntienana



I am sorry you consider my knowledge to be useless, because it is probably all you are going to get here. Most Freemasons won't be remotely interested in even talking to you about the most basic elements because of your negative attitudes here. I, on the other hand, enjoy a good debate, and if I am able to throw any light for you, then I will do my best. It was once said to me, "the man who claims to know everything is a liar!" I don't know everything, I have already apologised for that here once or twice.

The bottom line here, as far as I can see, is that those of you here knocking us are no less brain washed than that which you think we are. Any arguments we put over are immediately shot down, so why should we waste any more time defending ourselves and freemasonry in particular. You ask questions, we answer them. You say that we are lying, or evading the issue. You don't know this for sure, but insist all the same. If you know we are lying, then you didn't need to ask the question in the first place!!

I know what I know. I believe what I believe. I do not live in a 'prison'. I have not been brainwashed. I am not told what to do. I do not have to go any further than I am in freemasonry, that is my choice.

You believe that which you will, I don't hold that against you, I don't knock you for that, so let us alone.


With all due respect, YOU made the choice to come here as a Mason representative announcing you wanted to answer questions and that you enjoy debate.
To tell the people here to "let you alone" and that you "don't have to justify your words to us ignorants" is just another gleaming example of how you say one thing and do the other.
This arrogance of your comment as you personally "bestowing upon us light because masons wouldn't bother" is concerning. There are other examples of this.

Personal character flaw or Luciferian principle?

From what I have gleaned here it seems that any questions we have can be answered from any of the assortment of conventional literature. The first 3 degrees are designed to be squeaky clean, morally admirable, yada yada yada. So what you say is going to be a repeat of what is in the literature and also a reflection of the good deeds persona of the first 3 degrees. As I said before it is not these levels or branches that is of concern. That is the reason I say what you would offer is of little consequence.

However, how you present your answers, represent the organization and conduct yourself has indeed thrown a vast amount of light on the subject of masonry for me.

[paganus]

PART 2 PART 3 PART 4

GERALD GARDNER

The Man, the Myth & the Magick

Part One

It is over thirty years since Gerald Gardner (1884-1964) departed to the spirit world yet his influence still dominates the Craft. Gardner was on a Mediterranean cruise on the S.S. Scottish Prince when he collapsed at the breakfast table and died from a heart attack. He was nearly 80 years old.

Since his death Gardner has been both praised and vilified in the most extreme terms. He has been hailed as the father of the modem pagan revival, the messiah of a religion for the New Age and as a 'kindly, gentle old man'. In contrast he has also been vilified as a sado-masochistic voyeur, a homophobe, misogynist, 'dirty old man', 'a potty old Englishman', a manipulative old rascal', and 'a kinky old goat' ! His contribution to the increasing public awareness of the Craft in the second half of the 20th century has been both lauded and condemned. In the words of an (anonymous) correspondent in The Bridge magazine (Lugnasadh 1995): ' I feel that the Craft would not be in the mess it is in today if Gardner had kept his mouth shut, and practised the rule of silence. He dragged the Craft from the sacred darkness into the profane light'.

Writing shortly after Gardner's death, Justine Glass (1965) summed up this contradiction about him when she said: 'Opinions about Dr Gardner (sic) are so divergent that it seems the truth must lie somewhere between the extremes. He has been described to me as a brilliant scholar, and a man with a veneer of learning; as a loveable, delightful character, and a 'messy old man'. Some say he was a master of witchcraft, others that he had no real knowledge at all, and that he did more harm to the Craft then the persecutions.' The truth, as Glass suggests, must lie somewhere between the extremes, but it is not our purpose here to find it, even if that was possible. In fact, with the passing of the years, it seems very unlikely that the real truth about this controversial figure will ever be known.

Gardner was born in Lancashire on June 13th 1884, the son of a wealthy timber merchant. The family claimed descent from Simon le Gardiner in the 14th century, and another of Gardner's ancestors was baron Gardner of Uttoexeter. In 1807 he was commander-in-chief of the Channel Fleet that faced Napoleon Bonaparte. Yet another ancestor was Grizell Gardiner, who was allegedly burnt as a witch in Scotland in 1640. Her significance was to mean more to Gardner in his later life.

As a young boy Gardner suffered from the 'occultist's disease' - asthma. The family's nanny, Josephine 'Com' McCombie persuaded Gardner's parents that sunnier climes than the North Country would improve his health. She took the young Gerald on winter trips to the south of France, the Canary Islands and West Africa chasing the sun. It was on these overseas trips that Gardner became fascinated by antique weapons. He also taught himself to read by perusing old copies of The Strand magazine. Gardner's education, or rather the lack of it, has always been a mystery. Although it seems he lacked any formal education, in later life he claimed the degrees of a M.A. and Ph.D. and called himself 'Doctor'. There is no evidence that he obtained these at a university in the normal way. It has been suggested that he may have acquired them in the 1930s through his friendship with the colourful, eccentric and controversial Father J.S.M. Ward, of whom more later.

In 1898 Com became engaged to the heir of a tea plantation in Ceylon. (Modern Sri Lanka). Incredibly it seems she obtained permission from Gardner's parents to take the fourteen -year old boy to the Far East. They agreed, providing their son was employed on the plantation and taught the secrets of tea growing. Com, her fiancee and the young Gerald finally set sail for Ceylon in 1900. Gardner was to spend most of his life in the East, in Ceylon and then Malaya and Borneo. He worked variously as a tea grower, rubber planter, government inspector and Customs officer.

During his colonial career in the East he cultivated his study of weaponry, writing a standard work on the Malay kris dagger, and he also became interested in anthropology, archaeology and native mysticism. In the 1930s he carried out archaeological excavations in Singapore, and travelled to China and French Indo-China (now Vietnam) in search of archaeological material. In 1936, after he had retired from the colonial service, Gardner was involved in excavations in Palestine (Israel) and Cyprus. In 1932 he spent some time with the famous archaeologist Sir Flinders Petrie who was excavating a site near Gaza in Egypt. In the period 1933 to 1937 Gardner wrote several articles on his discoveries on the Jahore river for specialist European magazines. His investigations into the curved dagger known as the kris led him to a study of Malay folk magick, and an interest in European occultism and Spiritualism. It is tempting to see him as an Indiana Jones figure at this time.

In 1936 Gardner retired from the Customs Service and, rather reluctantly, returned to England via Cyprus and Palestine. He had previously been back to the 'Old Country' on leave and in fact in 1916 had served as an hospital orderly in Liverpool, before a bout of malaria sent him back East on doctor's orders. On one visit to England, in 1927, Gardner attended a Spiritualist seance and was given a spirit message about his future wife. She was Donna Rosedale, a nursing sister at a London hospital. It was Donna who persuaded him to return to England, rather then staying in the Far East and living out his retirement in Malaya. A decision which was to change his life, and thousands of others. Strangely Donna was never in the Craft, although she was sympathetic to her husband's beliefs and seems to have supported him in them.

In January 1936 Gardner became involved in an archaeological dig twenty-five miles outside Jerusalem. This expedition revealed the existence of a temple dedicated to both the Hebrew tribal god Yahweh and the Canaanite fertility goddess Astaroth. This find revolutionised the study of the Biblical period indicating how the Hebrew peoples had adopted the worship of native deities in addition to their allegedly monotheistic religion. From Palestine Gardner traveled to Turkey, Greece, Hungary and Nazi Germany, before returning to London. There he and Donna rented a flat in the Charing Cross Road, famous for its many antiquarian book shops.

It was during this period that Gardner was introduced to naturism by a liberal doctor who suggested that it might be good for his health. He subsequently joined a naturist club in Finchley, north-west London. In 1938 Gardner's search for the winter sunshine led him back to Cyprus again and on the voyage out he wrote his little known novel A Goddess Arrives. While on the island he also recalled a past life as a sword maker and purchased a piece of land that he would later give to Father Ward.

It is unclear from Jack Bracelin's biography (1960) whether the two men knew each other previously in the Far East. They certainly shared careers and private interests for Ward had been a Customs officer in Burma and was an expert on Chinese secret societies. Both men had also been initiated into Freemasonry while in the East. Ward had been the head of a Church of England school in Burma and in 1918 was appointed director of intelligence for the right-wing Federation of British Industries. When he returned to England in 1929 Ward founded the Confraternity of the Kingdom of Christ as a result of visions he and his wife had of the imminent Second Coming.

In 1930 they established an abbey at Barnet in Hertfordshire as a Christian community under the auspices of the Anglican Church and the Bishop of St Albans. Unfortunately, the Wards and the C of E soon departed company and Ward was ordained as a priest in the Orthodox Catholic Church, which was anything but orthodox. In 1935 he was given the title of bishop within this church. Ward was also a high ranking Freemason and wrote several seminal books on the subject. His theory, which was probably shared by Gardner, was that that Masonry was descended from the pagan mystery schools and had preserved their teachings into the post-Christian period.

During the 1940s Gardner was a regular visitor to Ward's Ancient British Church and his signature appears on one of its documents. He used to attend the services at the abbey wearing, to the amazement of those who knew of his involvement in the Craft, a clerical dog collar! Gardner was later to use the term 'Ancient British Church' to legally register his covenstead at Brickett Wood in Hertfordshire as a legal place of worship. In 1946, when an irate father accused Ward of luring his sixteen-year old daughter into the sect, the unorthodox priest had to flee England. Gardner allowed Ward to re-establish his community on the piece of land in Cyprus previously mentioned. Ward died in 1949 and the Rev. Mother Ward kept the community going until the Cyprus authorities started to cause problems. The Confratemity immigrated to Australia where a small group still survived in Queensland in the 197Os. Cecil Williamson, the original owner of the Witches Mill museum on the Isle of Man, has claimed that Gardner originally purchased the land with the view to establishing a temple of Aphrodite on the island. Unfortunately the locals were not happy about the idea and opposed the planning permission.

In 1938 there were rumors of war in Europe and Gardner volunteered to be an Air Raid Precaution Warden. At this period, through his contacts in naturist circles, he had met many interesting people who were involved in astrology, Spiritualism and the occult. With the threat of air raids if war broke out, the Gardners moved out of their London flat near Victoria Station and relocated to the New Forest area of Hampshire where they already had friends. While out cycling one day Gardner came across the Rosicrucian Theater in Christchurch. This was being run by a flamboyant character called Alexander Sullivan (Frater Aurelis), who was the founder of the Crotona Fellowship of the Rosy Cross. The CRF had began life in 1911 as The Order of Twelve, but had been disbanded during the Great War when many occult lodges and groups had been forced to close. It was revived in 1920 and in 1933 Mabel Besant-Scott, daughter of Annie Besant who had succeeded Madame Blavatsky as head of the Theosophical Society, joined it. Besant-Scott held high office in the Order of International Co-Freemasonry, an esoteric form of Masonry founded in France in the 1890s which admitted both men and women to its lodges and attracted the membership of many occultists. The group in the 1930s practised a combination of Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry, but it collapsed in the 1940s after the death of Sullivan who had claimed to be immortal! Gardner had become a Mason in the Far East, and letters allegedly exist showing that he was a Co-Mason around 1935.

In 1938 Besant-Scott and Sullivan founded the Rosicrucian Theater. It seems that Sullivan had aspirations to be, or may even had been, a Shakespearean actor and his role at the theater was as actor manager and playwright. As well as offering plays on subjects such as druidism and Pythagoras, the theater also staged lectures on hypnotism, practical occultism and Esoteric Christianity - a heady mixture that seems to have attracted Gardner and other people in the area who were interested in the occult. Gardner attended several of the plays and, if photographic evidence is reliable, may even had acted in one or two.

During his visits to the theater Gardener noticed a group of people belonging to the Fellowship who stood apart from the rest. According to Bracelin (1960), they had a more serious interest in the occult, held magical beliefs and recognised Gardner from shared past lives. They wanted Gardner to join their 'inner circle' and said : " You have belonged to us in the past, why don't you come back to us."

Gardner was to discover that in fact they were a coven of local witches in the New Forest who were using the theater as a recruiting ground. They further explained that they were Co-Masons who had followed Besant-Scott to Hampshire in the early 193Os. One of them was certainly Dafo (Mrs Woodford-Grimes), a private music teacher who lived in Christchurch and was at the time the Maiden of the coven. She is mentioned in the original programs of the plays at the theater and was later to become High Priestess of the coven. She also features in the list of shareholders of Ancient Crafts Ltd, a company Gardner formed in the 1940s when his own group met at Brickett Wood, and she was present at Doreen Valiente's initiation into Gardnerian Wicca in 1953.

Gardner was invited to join the Craft and Bracelin says: ' Thus it was that, a few days after the war had started [3 September 1939] he was taken to a big house in the neighborhood. This belonged to 'Old Dorothy' - a lady of note in the district, 'county' and very well-to-do.' (165). It was in this house that Gardner was initiated into the Craft.

Of course, not everyone believes this story. As late as 1980 Professor Jeffrey B. Russell boldly stated: 'In fact there is no evidence that Old Dorothy ever existed ... (153). Aidan Kelly, the scourge of modem Wicca, stated even more boldly that Gardner, Dafo and Old Dorothy invented modem witchcraft on the evening of the full moon of September 1939 over their Horlicks, although sadly he does not give the exact time! (Kelly 1991:30). Recent rumors from the States however hint that he may now accept the idea that Gardner was initiated into a pre-existing New Forest coven - but that it may only date from 1935! Doreen Valiente has at least established that Dorothy Clutterbuck-Fordham (1880-1951) was a real person and actually existed. She has also identified the house in the New Forest owned by Old Dorothy where Gardner was initiated (Farrar 1984).

Independent evidence for the existence of the New Forest coven also comes from the novelist Louis Wilkinson. In the 1950s he told the occult writer Francis King that in the late thirties he had become friendly with the members of a witches coven in the Forest. Wilkinson claimed that ' the social composition of the group was a peculiar amalgam of middle-class intellectuals with the local peasantry.' (King 1970:141). King, a sceptic about modem witch survivals, seems to have been convinced by the authenticity of the coven, especially because of Wilkinson's descriptions of their use of a 'flying ointment' and the fly agaric toadstool to induce Otherworldly visions. King however was of the opinion that Gardner did not find the simple ceremonies of the group to his liking and 'decided to found a more elaborate and romanticised witch cult of his own' (142), with the help of Aleister Crowley.

If this coven did exist, and the evidence seems to suggest it did, when did it originate and why did it have such a 'peculiar amalgam' of social types as members? One possible explanation is given by E.W. Liddell (1994). It is alleged that the group derived from a Hampshire coven founded by the Essex cunning man George Pickingill in the 186Os. The group disbanded during the Great War, but was resurrected by some of its elderly members in the 192Os. It is claimed that during the 1930s there was an influx of 'middle-class intellectuals' into the group and these were presumably the members of the Rosicrucian Theater encountered by Gardner. Liddell claims that the newcomers were influenced by the theories of Dr Margaret Murray and that, in common with other traditional groups, it was male orientated and exclusively worshipped the Homed God.

Recently another speculative theory about the origin of the New Forest coven has emerged from the shadows. According to the neo-druidic magazine Aisling 4 8 (1995), it was an offshoot of an organisation called the Order of Woodland Chivalry which was active in the area at the time. This Order was based on the ideas of an American called Ernest Thompson Seton, who combined woodcraft lore with Native American beliefs to produce an alternative scouting movement for boys and adults. In its English incarnation in the 1930s it met in the New Forest and allegedly practised rituals involving the casting of circles and Anglo-Saxon imagery. the group practised a 'back to nature' philosophy which allegedly also involved '...reading the poetry of Victor Neuburg in order to invoke pagan deities'. (Aisling 1995:13). This, allegedly, was the 'real' New Forest coven contacted by Gardner, who was (allegedly)a member of the OWC. At the time of writing (December 1996) we are still awaiting issue # 9 of Aisling which has promised further 'revelations'.

Kelly has attempted, with some desperation and with little knowledge of the British occult scene, to recreate (with the emphasis on 'create') a membership list for the New Forest coven. His dream team consisted of Dolores North (aka Madeline Montalban), George Watson McGregor ( Chosen Chief of the Druid Order), the Rev. J.S.M. Ward, Mabel Besant-Scott, George Sullivan, and Colonel Charles Seymour and Christine Hartley (of the Fraternity of the Inner Light).

Of these, Madeline Montalban certainly knew Gardner in the 1940s and seems to have revelled in the title of the 'Witch of St Giles' - the area of the West End of London where she lived. Madeline also told me that she had typed the manuscript of Gardner's occult novel High Magic's Aid. She seems to have had contacts with other witches in London during the war, who had nothing to do with Gardner, and she was also private seer to Lord Mountbatten, whose family home is in the New Forest area. Liddell (1994) claims that she sponsored Gardner into a Co-Mason lodge in 1945. Through this lodge Gardner allegedly gained an introduction to a hereditary coven in Hertfordshire (160). Kenneth Grant has also claimed to have attended a ceremony conducted by Dolores North at her flat in St Giles Circus (demolished to make way for Centre Point) at which Gardner was also present (Grant 1977:122124).

We knew Madeline from 1967 to her death in 1982, and were a student of her magickal school known as the Order of the Morning Star. and she had a poor opinion of Gardner. In fact she described him as a 'fraud'' and a 'pervert', relating lurid tales of how he liked to be tied up and have his genitals tickled with a feather! (Well, whatever turns you on, and let he who be without sin .... ) Towards the end of her life she seems to have been quite sensitive about any alleged witchcraft connections, and flew into one of her famous rages which lasted several days when a journalist described her in Man, Myth & Magic as the 'Witch of St Giles'. We also knew and worked with Christine Hartley in the 1970s and, while she was sympathetic to the Craft, she never gave any indication she had met or knew Gardner.

Gardner was certainly a member of the Druid Order, and a sword owned by Old Dorothy was used at their midsummer ceremony every year at Stonehenge, however it seems unlikely that their Chosen Chief was ever a member of the New Forest coven. Louis Wilkinson is said to have attended some of the group's rituals as a 'guest' (sic), but whether he was a formal initiated member is unknown. The other names are mere speculation.

The period around 1939-1940 is confused and muddled in the Bracelin biography. He mentions a letter that Gardner had published in The Daily Telegraph suggesting the formation of a citizen militia or guerrilla force to fight the Germans if they ever invaded England. This letter must have been written early in the summer of 1940 and Bracelin suggests that it was responsible for the creation of the Local Defense Volunteers, later to be renamed as the Home Guard. In fact such a force had been suggested by Winston Churchill as early as October 1939. The actual official announcement of its formation came on May 14 1940, following widespread public panic about fifth columnists and enemy paratroopers dropping into the English countryside at night. The Secretary of State for War, Anthony Eden, made a wireless broadcast asking for volunteers who knew how to use firearms to report to their local police stations and thousands turned up.

Gardner was an ideal recruit because he was an expert on all types of weapons. Before the Great War he had been the member of a private militia called the Legion of Frontiersmen, and in Ceylon he had belonged to the Planter's Rifle Corp. Bracelin's biography has a photograph of Gardner on his Custom launch wearing a revolver in his belt. However, Gardner was already an ARP warden and at first he was refused permission to join the new organisation. He responded by arming his wardens with pikes and coshes, while he carried a loaded machine pistol. Later he did manage to join the Home Guard. He held the rank of lance-corporal and acted as armourer to his local troop.

Wilkinson mentioned to King that in the summer of 1940 the New Forest coven were busy performing rituals to stop the expected Nazi invasion. The end result of this, Wilkinson claimed, was that the oldest and frailest member of the coven gave themselves up as a voluntary human sacrifice. They left off the 'flying ointment' used to keep their skyclad body warm on cold nights so that they might die of exposure. (King: 141-142) Bracelin also refers to this event and claims that Old Dorothy 'called up covens left and right' (suggesting there were other covens in existence to call up). Then in the New Forest a 'Great Circle' was created, a cone of power raised and sent across the Channel with the telepathic message "You cannot cross. You cannot come. You cannot come." A similar rite was allegedly performed by oldtime witches to stop the French and earlier the Spanish Armada. (Bracelin 1960:166-167).

Again, not everyone accepts this story as fact. One Gardnerian High Priestess dismissed it to me as 'one of Gerald's fairy tales', while Cecil Williamson (1993) claims that Gardner based it on a wartime ritual in the Ashdown Forest actually performed by Aleister Crowley and his chums in the British Secret Service............. to be continued.

Mike Howard

In Part 2: Crowley, Commander lan Fleming of Naval Intelligence and anti-Nazi rituals; Gardner joins the Folklore Society and meets Dr Margaret Murray; Gardner in West Africa frightening the natives; a meeting with the Great Beast; and the witchcraft museum on the Isle of Man.

References: Witchcraft, the Sixth Sense & Us Justine Glass (Neville Spearman 1965), Gerald Gardner: Witch Jack Bracelin/Idries Shah (Octagon Press 1960), Inside the Brotherhood Martin Short (Grafton 1989), Gerald Gardner; Some Historical Fragments Gregory Tillett in The Australian Wiccan (#14 n.d), A History of Witchcraft, Sorcerers, Heretics and Pagans Prof. J.B. Russell (Thames & Hudson 1980), Crafting the Art of Magic Aidan Kelly (Llewellyn USA 1991), The Witches Way Stewart & Janet Farrar (Robert Hale 1984), Ritual Magic in England Francis King (Neville Spearman 1970), The Pickingill Papers E.W. Liddell with Michael Howard (Capall Bann 1994), Scouting for Pagans by Terry Baker in Pagan News (May 1992), Woodcrafting the Art of Magic by Gareth J.Medway in Aisling # 8 (1995), The Nightshade of Eden Kenneth Grant (Muller 1977) and From Dusk to Dawn; Life in the Home Guard A.G. Street (George G.Harrap & Co 1942).

PART 2 PART 3 PART 4