David Icke vs Jesus Christ

[Anders Lindman]

David Icke said that he was Jesus Christ, or that everybody was Jesus Christ or something like that. That's pretty stupid. Why? Because I am more important than Jesus Christ. You are more important than Jesus Christ. David Icke is more important than Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter who you compare yourself with or what you compare yourself to, you are always more important than everything else.

If you think I'm wrong, then you have been brainwashed, programmed with stupid ideas that you believe are your ideas, but they're not.

[janhus]

David Icke said that he was Jesus Christ, or that everybody was Jesus Christ or something like that. That's pretty stupid. Why? Because I am more important than Jesus Christ. You are more important than Jesus Christ. David Icke is more important than Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter who you compare yourself with or what you compare yourself to, you are always more important than everything else.

If you think I'm wrong, then you have been brainwashed, programmed with stupid ideas that you believe are your ideas, but they're not.


but neither you or me are more important than our planet... earth can do without humans, but we can't without earth:p

[beldazar]

Jesus himself said we are all the children of god didnt he? Not that he was the only son of god, I will expand on this...we are ALL god! Im sure David himself said something on these lines too :)

[beldazar]

Hi Janhus, I know what you are saying but the planet is conscious too, thats what god is, consciousness, which we are all part of.

[janhus]

im not familiar with that, but it sound very possible

[danster82]

You think your important?

Ask the Universe how important it thinks you are.

Its the task of the Ego to make your beleive your important.

[dangermouse]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6983074709191796496


Cities are cancer and we are the earth and an the earth is us:D

[synergy777]

yes but in this time and age icke is saying similar things.

if jesus etc did return he would be sectioned under the mental health act. as no one would believe him or help him, heck last time where was his help, he got cruicified/executed didn;t he?

the thing we must do everything for the creator, but we must also not rely on his support/help, its a no win situation for us.

[Anders Lindman]

but neither you or me are more important than our planet... earth can do without humans, but we can't without earth:p

Yes, we are! We are certainly more important than the planet.

[Anders Lindman]

Jesus himself said we are all the children of god didnt he? Not that he was the only son of god, I will expand on this...we are ALL god! Im sure David himself said something on these lines too :)

Absolutely. I believe David Icke has a point there. That we are consciousness.

[janhus]

Yes, we are! We are certainly more important than the planet.

ok, then destroy earth and tell me where will we live

[Anders Lindman]

You think your important?

Ask the Universe how important it thinks you are.

Its the task of the Ego to make your beleive your important.

I AM the universe. And so are you.

[manchurian_candidate]

but neither you or me are more important than our planet... earth can do without humans, but we can't without earth:p

I agree with that statement, to be fair maybe we will not know the full extent of our role/purpose and god's purpose until our bodies release the soul to a higher place upon death.

P.S. your avatar is mega!!! :D:D

[Anders Lindman]

ok, then destroy earth and tell me where will we live

Earth is a holographic projection. A very big and massive projection to be sure, but still not something of substance. Consciousness is what shines the entire universe into existence moment by moment. Ask David Icke about it.

[thirdwave]

Putting my David Icke scarf on, and Hat... with a hot dog in my had!

Goowan the Icke!! ...Gowan sun!!

:D

[Anders Lindman]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6983074709191796496


Cities are cancer and we are the earth and an the earth is us:D

That's an old but very cool video. I think I will watch it again. :)

[Anders Lindman]

yes but in this time and age icke is saying similar things.

if jesus etc did return he would be sectioned under the mental health act. as no one would believe him or help him, heck last time where was his help, he got cruicified/executed didn;t he?

the thing we must do everything for the creator, but we must also not rely on his support/help, its a no win situation for us.

Or as Bill Hicks said: When Jesus returns, do you think he wants to see a fuckin' cross?! :D

[janhus]

Earth is a holographic projection. A very big and massive projection to be sure, but still not something of substance. Consciousness is what shines the entire universe into existence moment by moment. Ask David Icke about it.

???
if earth is holographic projection, then you and me are holographic projections to, and therefore we are not important at all

[sniffle]

I only read the title, is this on pay per view?
I'm gonna get some doritos and dip and see who wins.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[Anders Lindman]

???
if earth is holographic projection, then you and me are holographic projections to, and therefore we are not important at all

We are consciousness. The material world is not an illusion, it is of course real, but it is not solid. It has the quality of solidity, and is the real stuff, but consciousness is what we are. It's not physical matter that creates consciousness. It's the other way around.

[tron]

but neither you or me are more important than our planet... earth can do without humans, but we can't without earth:p

Wrong way round there you might find, the earth can't live without us, even science shows that without an observer (ie. you or me) atoms aren't whole, if you know what i mean? They are an infinite number of possibilites, and when you observe, the adjust to your belief and consensus belief through our collective sub-conscious, into comprehendable shapes, sounds, etc. We are all but a hologram, created in our own and everyone else's minds, so without the minds, no hologram. Hence, the Earth cannot exist without us as there would be no observer to decode atoms and frequencies, it would just be a big ball of possibilty, without any comprehesion of space or time.

We are very important, because we create this hologram in our collective sub-conscious (which I don't think is meant to be sub-conscious btw) we have to power to change it by our thoughts and the frequencies our matter is made of (which is set BY your thoughts). This thought pattern IS NOT Ego-driven, the ego is set on attachment to the self, outside reality, your car, house, social statues, physical body, etc. But not the realisation of your own abilities (which we all have, and chose before we got here imo), your ego is more likely to tell you that you are powerless, because it knows its rein is coming to an end and is grabbing at anything it can hold onto for dear life. However, self-empowerment, of the inner-self, not your job, car, etc. is essential, otherwise all we discuss is futile, its because we KNOW we can make a change but changing the inner-self, not running about trying to change things 'out there', or as Michael Tsarion once said, 're-arranging furniture on the titanic', which is essentially what is happening.

Peace,
Cxx

[Anders Lindman]

And if Jesus Christ returns he will be more important than his former self. The past is important, but the LIVING reality is larger than the past.

[beldazar]

Thanks dangermouse, that was really good

[fromthatshow]

You think your important?

Ask the Universe how important it thinks you are.

Its the task of the Ego to make your beleive your important.

I bet it would say that I was pretty important, just as important as everything else :)

[janhus]

Wrong way round there you might find, the earth can't live without us, even science shows that without an observer (ie. you or me) atoms aren't whole, if you know what i mean? They are an infinite number of possibilites, and when you observe, the adjust to your belief and consensus belief through our collective sub-conscious, into comprehendable shapes, sounds, etc. We are all but a hologram, created in our own and everyone else's minds, so without the minds, no hologram. Hence, the Earth cannot exist without us as there would be no observer to decode atoms and frequencies, it would just be a big ball of possibilty, without any comprehesion of space or time.

We are very important, because we create this hologram in our collective sub-conscious (which I don't think is meant to be sub-conscious btw) we have to power to change it by our thoughts and the frequencies our matter is made of (which is set BY your thoughts). This thought pattern IS NOT Ego-driven, the ego is set on attachment to the self, outside reality, your car, house, social statues, physical body, etc. But not the realisation of your own abilities (which we all have, and chose before we got here imo), your ego is more likely to tell you that you are powerless, because it knows its rein is coming to an end and is grabbing at anything it can hold onto for dear life. However, self-empowerment, of the inner-self, not your job, car, etc. is essential, otherwise all we discuss is futile, its because we KNOW we can make a change but changing the inner-self, not running about trying to change things 'out there', or as Michael Tsarion once said, 're-arranging furniture on the titanic', which is essentially what is happening.

Peace,
Cxx


ok, if we aren't here to see earth, then it doesn't exist... i've heard about that before on philosophy class, but what if some aliens came to earth where there are no humans to see it... would they find earth or empty space?
i think that things are happening all around us whether we see it or not

[dangermouse]

Thanks dangermouse, that was really good
Don't thank me I didnt make it :D .. But yeah I am glad to bring it into focus its very interesting :)

[lydia78]

Don't thank me I didnt make it :D .. But yeah I am glad to bring it into focus its very interesting :)


This is a very cool thread, nice one!! You truely are DangerMouse :D

[intruder]

David Icke said that he was Jesus Christ, or that everybody was Jesus Christ or something like that. That's pretty stupid. Why? Because I am more important than Jesus Christ. You are more important than Jesus Christ. David Icke is more important than Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter who you compare yourself with or what you compare yourself to, you are always more important than everything else.

If you think I'm wrong, then you have been brainwashed, programmed with stupid ideas that you believe are your ideas, but they're not.

If "I" think that "you" are wrong, then I'm brainwashed????
how lovingly fascist of you!!!

I guess it depends on how you gauge "importance".

But since "Jesus didn't even exist"...than I guess that you ARE more important than "nothing". Yet...in your new age world, isn't "nothing" EVERYTHING?

From a merely theatrical/literary point of view...it takes quite an inflated ego, consumed with "self-importance" to say they are more "important" than an entity who has 2000 years of history behind him.

drop your "importance" trip.

you're nothing

Also, if your into Advaita/Schizophrenia, I heartily endorse that sham known as "Tony Parsons".
Check out "As It Is"....Parsons confirms that people will pay money to be spoonfed utter bullshit.

[sunyatta60]

Anders I would be interested in what you make of this guys talk.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3892805257653534598

[baron von lotsov]

David Icke said that he was Jesus Christ, or that everybody was Jesus Christ or something like that. That's pretty stupid. Why? Because I am more important than Jesus Christ. You are more important than Jesus Christ. David Icke is more important than Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter who you compare yourself with or what you compare yourself to, you are always more important than everything else.

If you think I'm wrong, then you have been brainwashed, programmed with stupid ideas that you believe are your ideas, but they're not.


It's blasphemy and the only people who get a kick out of perverting the bible are Satanists. Icke should watch himself since you know what happens when one travels down that road. You get what you give out and for Icke to claim that is pure stupidity and foolishness, especially when he claims to be exposing Satanists. I suppose he will end up thinking some child rituals are alright as well as he continues to loose the plot. Someone else stupid enough to take this kind of path was David Shayler and look what happened to him. You'd be a fool to follow such idiots.

[seanx]

Originally Posted by tron
Wrong way round there you might find, the earth can't live without us, even science shows that without an observer (ie. you or me) atoms aren't whole, if you know what i mean? They are an infinite number of possibilites, and when you observe, the adjust to your belief and consensus belief through our collective sub-conscious, into comprehendable shapes, sounds, etc. We are all but a hologram, created in our own and everyone else's minds, so without the minds, no hologram. Hence, the Earth cannot exist without us as there would be no observer to decode atoms and frequencies, it would just be a big ball of possibilty, without any comprehesion of space or time.

We are very important, because we create this hologram in our collective sub-conscious (which I don't think is meant to be sub-conscious btw) we have to power to change it by our thoughts and the frequencies our matter is made of (which is set BY your thoughts). This thought pattern IS NOT Ego-driven, the ego is set on attachment to the self, outside reality, your car, house, social statues, physical body, etc. But not the realisation of your own abilities (which we all have, and chose before we got here imo), your ego is more likely to tell you that you are powerless, because it knows its rein is coming to an end and is grabbing at anything it can hold onto for dear life. However, self-empowerment, of the inner-self, not your job, car, etc. is essential, otherwise all we discuss is futile, its because we KNOW we can make a change but changing the inner-self, not running about trying to change things 'out there', or as Michael Tsarion once said, 're-arranging furniture on the titanic', which is essentially what is happening.

Peace,
Cxx

Exceelent post, tron - plenty of food for thought for people with
open minds, who are willing to consider all possibilites.

Then along come the 5-sense thought police, namely
Mr King, or now the Intruder and, of course the baron - to 'control'
and riducule such thinking.

'twas always the way....

Don't let them derail what was a very good debate to read.

INtruder wrote:

From a merely theatrical/literary point of view...it takes quite an inflated ego, consumed with "self-importance" to say they are more "important" than an entity who has 2000 years of history behind him.

drop your "importance" trip.

you're nothing

Also, if your into Advaita/Schizophrenia, I heartily endorse that sham known as "Tony Parsons".
Check out "As It Is"....Parsons confirms that people will pay money to be spoonfed utter bullshit.

Need one comment anymore.

[eternal_spirit]

We know David is real end of, Jesus didn't show up. He's 2000 years or more late. :rolleyes:

[thirdwave]

I think everyone is as important as Jesus Christ... (especially as he was just a metaphor)

I think its important people learn to respect them selves more and understand they are just as important as anyone else.... any "god" included.... and any real god would agree with me.... I kneel to no one unless I choose to value them so. And I expect others to be the same.

Any true god would also agree with me that "Blasphemy" is a word created by greedy power hungry people who like to control others through fear and to keep them at their feet.


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Erthun0Pauc

[morrissey]

I think thats a silly thing to say, chirst believe in him or not was likley to be a divine being trying to teach us spirituality, in my view. teaching, methods, interpretations, dates, where he came from etc that can be debated but the reality is we are all uniquely beautiful and yet fundamentally the same beacuse we are all one in spirit and thats a truth you can accept or ignore, but its there. Science is rapidly turning into the language of creation, Which the black op guys and scientist already know

many people who channel and get 'psychic messages' fall into the trap of thinking they are christ or the messiah, I'm not sure if david did that and changed his understanding later, but he is right in claiming were are like christ beacuse we are of and as God.

Everyone is on a path and has a part to play.No one is more or less important than anyone regardless, Killer, nazi, French transvestite whatever. we may not like or even hate people for the choices they make but we all have infinate potentially and I think a good starting ground is that everyone is equal and from there move forward as one.

david is doing some Important and passionate works and jesus said some beautiful things But a david icke veruse jesus question with you as the victor sounds more like an episode of celebrity death match than an intellectual debate.

[Anders Lindman]

If "I" think that "you" are wrong, then I'm brainwashed????
how lovingly fascist of you!!!

I guess it depends on how you gauge "importance".

But since "Jesus didn't even exist"...than I guess that you ARE more important than "nothing". Yet...in your new age world, isn't "nothing" EVERYTHING?

From a merely theatrical/literary point of view...it takes quite an inflated ego, consumed with "self-importance" to say they are more "important" than an entity who has 2000 years of history behind him.

drop your "importance" trip.

you're nothing

Also, if your into Advaita/Schizophrenia, I heartily endorse that sham known as "Tony Parsons".
Check out "As It Is"....Parsons confirms that people will pay money to be spoonfed utter bullshit.

So you think Jesus Christ is more important than you? Is George W. Bush more important than you?

[seanx]

Baron wrote:
Icke should watch himself since you know what happens when one travels down that road. You get what you give out and for Icke to claim that is pure stupidity and foolishness, especially when he claims to be exposing Satanists

The Baron knows fully well that Icke NEVER said he was Jesus.

He said we are all the sons ( and daughters) of God - and that
would include icke.

So Icke IS the son of God.

And so are you, dear God, Baron. You are the son of God.

Of course you KNOW ALL THIS FULLY WELL.

This is just part of your Christian- inspired campaign to save
us all from Icke's and other writers similar to icke revolutionary
IDEAS on the nature of reality.

You want us all back in the clergy-led Matrix of organized , i.e
Tavistock controlled mass christianity.

God save us from that.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

So you think Jesus Christ is more important than you? Is George W. Bush more important than you?

Yahshua Messiah, a Pioneer, is far more important than I.


GWB is: 'Chief amongst my servants'.






Kind Regards: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[Anders Lindman]

Anders I would be interested in what you make of this guys talk.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3892805257653534598

Interesting video. I like the explanation that we all call each other by different names, but we all use "I" for describing ourselves. But it doesn't prove that Jesus didn't exist. Some Christians claim they feel/know Christ directly, not as some abstract thought, but as a direct experience. I cannot say that they are right or wrong.

[Anders Lindman]

Yahshua Messiah, a Pioneer, is far more important than I.


GWB is: 'Chief amongst my servants'.






Kind Regards: Snoopsnuffleopagus

But would Yahshua Messiah even exist without you?

[Anders Lindman]

It's blasphemy and the only people who get a kick out of perverting the bible are Satanists. Icke should watch himself since you know what happens when one travels down that road. You get what you give out and for Icke to claim that is pure stupidity and foolishness, especially when he claims to be exposing Satanists. I suppose he will end up thinking some child rituals are alright as well as he continues to loose the plot. Someone else stupid enough to take this kind of path was David Shayler and look what happened to him. You'd be a fool to follow such idiots.

Is the Bible more important than people?

[Anders Lindman]

david is doing some Important and passionate works and jesus said some beautiful things But a david icke veruse jesus question with you as the victor sounds more like an episode of celebrity death match than an intellectual debate.

Maybe the title of this thread was more attention-seeking than accurate I admit. :D

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

But would Yahshua Messiah even exist without you?

Of course He would, you silly Goose! :D



Kind Regards: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[turquoisefyre]

...Jesus didn't show up. He's 2000 years or more late. :rolleyes:


no He ain't kiddo...;)

if He was, we would not be here...:)

[intruder]

Perhaps Anders was just getting scriptural....perhaps I spoke in haste with what I said earlier (but NOT I said what about Tony Parsons)


"When you are invited by someone to a wedding banquet, do not sit down at the place of honor, in case someone more distinguished than you has been invited by your host; and the host who invited both of you may come and say to you, 'Give this person your place,' and then in disgrace you would start to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit down at the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he may say to you, 'Friend, move up higher'; then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at the table with you. For all who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." ( Luke 14:8-11)

Now...I'm uncertain if the rule is applicable only at a wedding banquet or not.

[bigus_dickus]

looka hea: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16815

[Anders Lindman]

Of course He would, you silly Goose! :D



You COULD be correct, but I'm not sure. It's a bit spooky idea, but maybe the universe is a projection of consciousness, like David Icke and many others say. :eek: I'm trying to wrap my mind around that idea.

One thing I have found out is that this living moment contains BOTH the past and all the stuff that arises moment to moment.

[Anders Lindman]

Perhaps Anders was just getting scriptural....perhaps I spoke in haste with what I said earlier (but NOT I said what about Tony Parsons)


"When you are invited by someone to a wedding banquet, do not sit down at the place of honor, in case someone more distinguished than you has been invited by your host; and the host who invited both of you may come and say to you, 'Give this person your place,' and then in disgrace you would start to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit down at the lowest place, so that when your host comes, he may say to you, 'Friend, move up higher'; then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at the table with you. For all who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." ( Luke 14:8-11)

Now...I'm uncertain if the rule is applicable only at a wedding banquet or not.

Tony Parsons tries to take away the past as not being important imo. It's more correct to include the past.

Lower and higher is needed in hierarchies of authority. And hierarchies are needed I think. But authority is only based on fixed rules. The importance of a rule is based on its usefulness, not on its rank in the hierarchy.

[intruder]

Tony Parsons tries to take away the past as not being important imo. It's more correct to include the past.

Lower and higher is needed in hierarchies of authority. And hierarchies are needed I think. But authority is only based on fixed rules. The importance of a rule is based on its usefulness, not on its rank in the hierarchy.

Tony Parsons tries to take away the past, the now, the future, freedom of choice, you, him, her. I wish I had his book handy but I'm at work.
He makes a juvenile statement about how boring it would be not to sin "in fact", he says, 'I'm sinning all the time.' He also says that he "used to sell used cars, but this seems like a better JOB."

this implies a someone who MAKES a choice to "sin", or go against "something". And all his puerile, sloppy, rants on non dualism go right out the window. And he prefaces his book with a comment of alleged teachers of Advaita who are ANYTHING but. When I read Parsons' book...there is a tangible feeling of sitting down at the table with the father of lies. I'm working on a book that will chronicle the rants of the modern spiritual charlatans.

and what IS amazing to me is that Parsons, Tolle, Gangaji, Chopra, Dyer, (the list is huge)......have ALL quoted that being who didn't exist.....Jesus. For Parsons to quote "Jesus" does indeed imply a past, an "other", a CHOICE!! Tolle warns you not to personalize Christ (ego games from Eckhart?) because somehow we're all Christ....

[seanx]

and what IS amazing to me is that Parsons, Tolle, Gangaji, Chopra, Dyer, (the list is huge)......have ALL quoted that being who didn't exist.....Jesus. For Parsons to quote "Jesus" does indeed imply a past, an "other", a CHOICE!! Tolle warns you

I agree with you about Parsons.

Read his first book, I think it was - and it is a total perversion -
and exact opposite of what Tolle writes about.

Parsons view of life is the most defeatist, negative, and fatalist
nonsenseI've ever read

You cannot compare him to Tolle, whose ideas are in a completely
different league, that is if you read him carefully - and NOT someone's
else's intrepretation of what he says.


Tolle warns you not to personalize Christ (ego games from Eckhart?) because somehow we're all Christ....

He uses this phrase to describe a state, or level of consciousness
- so that people don't confuse it with a person like jesus.

You must take into account it's very difficult to use language
to express or describe differening state of awareness.

[intruder]

I agree with you about Parsons.

Read his first book, I think it was - and it is a total perversion -
and exact opposite of what Tolle writes about.

Parsons view of life is the most defeatist, negative, and fatalist
nonsenseI've ever read

You cannot compare him to Tolle, whose ideas are in a completely
different league, that is if you read him carefully - and NOT someone's
else's intrepretation of what he says.




He uses this phrase to describe a state, or level of consciousness
- so that people don't confuse it with a person like jesus.

You must take into account it's very difficult to use language
to express or describe differening state of awareness.

SEANX!!!! we're agreeing!!! (that stuff I said last week was ME being the "devils advocate"....coupled with a terrible mood)
anyway....I'm just beginning to negotiate these waters despite years of study. I have two Tony Parsons books....and man, I can't believe that I'm saying this.....but I think they're "evil". His "philosophy" is tragic to me....utterly. And I think he has a bit of jealousy regarding Tolle...

[Anders Lindman]

and what IS amazing to me is that Parsons, Tolle, Gangaji, Chopra, Dyer, (the list is huge)......have ALL quoted that being who didn't exist.....Jesus. For Parsons to quote "Jesus" does indeed imply a past, an "other", a CHOICE!! Tolle warns you not to personalize Christ (ego games from Eckhart?) because somehow we're all Christ....

The Advaita teachers seem only half-correct in my view. They fail to integrate the past and the living moment. Even Eckhart Tolle is kind of like an Advaita teacher talking about the future not being important and things like that.

[intruder]

The Advaita teachers seem only half-correct in my view. They fail to integrate the past and the living moment. Even Eckhart Tolle is kind of like an Advaita teacher talking about the future not being important and things like that.

I understand....

to ME, LIGHT has "no choice"....nor do atoms or molecules....yet, they slowly give rise to plants, animals (mobility and limited choice, action and satisfaction) to man....greater mobility and the ability to reflect, choose, and split the atom as well...not a wise choice, but a choice none the less.

See Arthur M. Young's "The Reflexive Universe"

[auron]

Baron wrote:


The Baron knows fully well that Icke NEVER said he was Jesus.

He said we are all the sons ( and daughters) of God - and that
would include icke.

So Icke IS the son of God.

And so are you, dear God, Baron. You are the son of God.

Of course you KNOW ALL THIS FULLY WELL.

This is just part of your Christian- inspired campaign to save
us all from Icke's and other writers similar to icke revolutionary
IDEAS on the nature of reality.

You want us all back in the clergy-led Matrix of organized , i.e
Tavistock controlled mass christianity.

God save us from that.

http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/08/84/23458408.jpg

[amethyst]

You think your important?

Ask the Universe how important it thinks you are.

Its the task of the Ego to make your beleive your important.

We are all equal because ........we are all human. But we are all different no?

I think there is a distinction between "importance" and uniqueness".

Each individual is endued with their own set of unique characteristics and no one else can be like them (what my signature says) They are unique and individual in that respect. And each individual is important in that sense. If we didn't consider our importance in this sense, we would never try to make progress....we would never try to advance.

But as each individual is joined together with others, they can each bring their own unique characteristics together...to make up the whole. It is supposed to be a complementary system, not a divisive one...when it works properly....which is suposed to be total harmony and balance...And love and peace in total perfection is the outflow of this.

Unfortunately there are forces in this world that have tried, thru the eons of time, and now, to divide this collective, complementary system that is supposed to work in proper alignment. And this is all coming to a head in the days that are upon us.

[baron von lotsov]

Is the Bible more important than people?



The Bible says that man should not be worshipped like God. Can't you see the rational to this? Whatever good has ever come out of worshipping people as if they were God? Is this what Icke wants? To be worshipped? It's extremely vain of him apart from anything else.

[2013]

My understanding was that he said he was a son of the god head we are all sons and daughters of the god head .There are lots of heads out there i wonder if they are related theres dick , smack , piss , pot ,stress ,not forgetting nob ! and probably a lot more to boot if you like kicking people called head, theres also a French cousin pier head in Liverpool .The whole idea of God wouldn't matter if people lived in the correct way which a huge percentage of people seem to do , the media just paints it differently to plant fear and doubt in peoples hearts and minds .By their works shall you know them .Be good do good think good then you can thank God , or should isay MR Head :D

[Anders Lindman]

The Bible says that man should not be worshipped like God. Can't you see the rational to this? Whatever good has ever come out of worshipping people as if they were God? Is this what Icke wants? To be worshipped? It's extremely vain of him apart from anything else.

It could be a mind control trick. When the Bible says "do not worship people like God", then the subconscious mind, which doesn't understand negations reads: "do worship people like God".

It's kind of like: "Do not think about a pink elephant" but in a less obvious way.

[Anders Lindman]

I understand....

to ME, LIGHT has "no choice"....nor do atoms or molecules....yet, they slowly give rise to plants, animals (mobility and limited choice, action and satisfaction) to man....greater mobility and the ability to reflect, choose, and split the atom as well...not a wise choice, but a choice none the less.

See Arthur M. Young's "The Reflexive Universe"

I just want to add that Eckhart Tolle has described a very useful technique, to dissolve the pain body by putting awareness/attention into the body. A simple yet awesome technique. I haven't heard many of the other Advaita teachers having described such concrete and helpful tool. Byron Katie has what is called The Work, which is also a good technique.

[beldazar]

Hi 2013, I was going to post the same thing about what David said, A son of 'the' god-HEAD not THE son of god! It was mis-interpreted as stuff usually is, just like chinese whispers eh? No, more like it was deliberately mis-interpreted for more sensationalism! Baron, why are you quoting that from the bible? Its to make people bow down to the 'artificial' god(S) and give him/it some special reverence like blood sacrifices! :eek:

[amethyst]

Hi 2013, I was going to post the same thing about what David said, A son of 'the' god-HEAD not THE son of god! It was mis-interpreted as stuff usually is, just like chinese whispers eh? No, more like it was deliberately mis-interpreted for more sensationalism! Baron, why are you quoting that from the bible? Its to make people bow down to the 'artificial' god(S) and give him/it some special reverence like blood sacrifices! :eek:

I agree that David was probably misquoted...but Beldazar the bible, tho it's been messed with a lot, does have some good jewels in there...ya just have to know where to look.....like other books that give you knowledge.

[beldazar]

Yes im not disputing that amethyst, to tell a good lie it has to have an element of truth but I have a feeling that the barons quote was a misleading one. The bible does contain a few gems, especially the new testament. I will ALWAYS believe that WE are all god, the one TRUE god (consciousness, which is in ALL) :D

[seanx]

Anders Lindman wrote

Even Eckhart Tolle is kind of like an Advaita teacher talking about the future not being important and things like that.

I don't think that's where he is coming from.

It's more that you must be fully in the present - then all your
actions will be 'more inspired' and more 'aligned' to your true purpose -
so your future will reflect that.

[baron von lotsov]

It could be a mind control trick. When the Bible says "do not worship people like God", then the subconscious mind, which doesn't understand negations reads: "do worship people like God".

It's kind of like: "Do not think about a pink elephant" but in a less obvious way.


Ah but if you use that as a reason then you could say anyone who was good was actually subliminally telling people to be bad. If you want that kind of mind control just look at pop music.

The Bible does not beat about the bush though, and it warns about this kind of thing and it also warns about pride, which is something connected to it. Pride makes people think they are infallible when they are not. It says all humans are fallible and so it is necessary to be aware of this and to double check things. This is the difference between the God concept and the human concept, God is the absolute truth and man is someone who strives for that truth and the closer he gets to it the better off he will be. To suppose you are that absolute truth already, as Icke preaches, means you have no will to attain anything greater.

So the Bible contains much wisdom here and Icke is severely lacking in it. This is one reason he comes across as such a fool. I'd be too embarrassed to be David Icke personally, he is a walking contradiction. He actually preaches the philosophy of the elite, which is ultimately that of Satanism.

[seanx]

He actually preaches the philosophy of the elite, which is ultimately that of Satanism.

You couldn't make it up.

And the Baron's solution: to lead us all back to the matrix of
the world's largest mind-control system - christianity - and all
it's offshoots and it's main operating manual - The Bible

The religious system that tells us we are 'nothing', pure dirt, sick
sinners, powerless, evil creatures - and to be saved - we must give
our 'will' away and 'obey' this system's God.

What a set-up. What a con. Tavistock created perfection.

The Baron is Priceless. He is their 'thinking' personfied - right in front
of us.

[beldazar]

well said seanx! :)

[baron von lotsov]

Yes, the elite do think of themselves as gods.

[beldazar]

yes they do, but the false ones, the ones that genetically engineered us, not consciousness, I feel that there are two concepts of gods, we should re-name one, or perhaps both :D

[thirdwave]

Yes, the elite do think of themselves as gods.

Not really true, they serve their Masters.... THEY may think of them selves as Gods.

[beldazar]

yes that sounds more accurate thirdwave, thanks

[Anders Lindman]

I don't think that's where he is coming from.

It's more that you must be fully in the present - then all your
actions will be 'more inspired' and more 'aligned' to your true purpose -
so your future will reflect that.

Tolle has some good teaching and some bad teachings. His idea of 'acceptance of what is' totally sucks and is just a rehash of similar New Age teachings. His description of the pain body, and his body-awareness practice on the other hand are awesome and have helped me a lot.

[Anders Lindman]

Ah but if you use that as a reason then you could say anyone who was good was actually subliminally telling people to be bad. If you want that kind of mind control just look at pop music.

The Bible does not beat about the bush though, and it warns about this kind of thing and it also warns about pride, which is something connected to it. Pride makes people think they are infallible when they are not. It says all humans are fallible and so it is necessary to be aware of this and to double check things. This is the difference between the God concept and the human concept, God is the absolute truth and man is someone who strives for that truth and the closer he gets to it the better off he will be. To suppose you are that absolute truth already, as Icke preaches, means you have no will to attain anything greater.

So the Bible contains much wisdom here and Icke is severely lacking in it. This is one reason he comes across as such a fool. I'd be too embarrassed to be David Icke personally, he is a walking contradiction. He actually preaches the philosophy of the elite, which is ultimately that of Satanism.

No, when we say that someone is good, then that can be taken in by the subconscious mind. It's only negations that the subconscious cannot deal with. That's why we all carry around a big personal shadow, creating confusion and anger in us. The conscious mind can easily deal with negation. The trick is perhaps to integrate the conscious and the subconscious so that they operate together without conflict and friction.

The idea that people are fallible and God infallible is correct I think, and could be helpful to reach a better integration between us as individuals and God.

[thirdwave]

So the Bible contains much wisdom here and Icke is severely lacking in it. This is one reason he comes across as such a fool. I'd be too embarrassed to be David Icke personally, he is a walking contradiction. He actually preaches the philosophy of the elite, which is ultimately that of Satanism.

I just cant fathom how you can come to that conclusion....

and with 2500 people looking forward to hearing him talk for 7 hours I don't think he has any reason to be embarrassed, many people are starting to wake up and see the things David Icke goes into.... the truth is starting to shine and will continue to get brighter....

[lizzy]

I just cant fathom how you can come to that conclusion....

and with 2500 people looking forward to hearing him talk for 7 hours I don't think he has any reason to be embarrassed, many people are starting to wake up and see the things David Icke goes into.... the truth is starting to shine and will continue to get brighter....


His NWO info is a great start, after that the reppie new age crap is a disaster.

[thirdwave]

His NWO info is a great start, after that the reppie new age crap is a disaster.

In your opinion.

[limelady]

Wrong way round there you might find, the earth can't live without us, even science shows that without an observer (ie. you or me) atoms aren't whole, if you know what i mean? They are an infinite number of possibilites, and when you observe, the adjust to your belief and consensus belief through our collective sub-conscious, into comprehendable shapes, sounds, etc. We are all but a hologram, created in our own and everyone else's minds, so without the minds, no hologram. Hence, the Earth cannot exist without us as there would be no observer to decode atoms and frequencies, it would just be a big ball of possibilty, without any comprehesion of space or time.

We are very important, because we create this hologram in our collective sub-conscious (which I don't think is meant to be sub-conscious btw) we have to power to change it by our thoughts and the frequencies our matter is made of (which is set BY your thoughts). This thought pattern IS NOT Ego-driven, the ego is set on attachment to the self, outside reality, your car, house, social statues, physical body, etc. But not the realisation of your own abilities (which we all have, and chose before we got here imo), your ego is more likely to tell you that you are powerless, because it knows its rein is coming to an end and is grabbing at anything it can hold onto for dear life. However, self-empowerment, of the inner-self, not your job, car, etc. is essential, otherwise all we discuss is futile, its because we KNOW we can make a change but changing the inner-self, not running about trying to change things 'out there', or as Michael Tsarion once said, 're-arranging furniture on the titanic', which is essentially what is happening.

Peace,
Cxx

Fantastic 5***** post from tron! :)

[drael]

Hiya :)

Simply put, its not literal, its a metaphor.
David icke is saying we all have a transcendant conciousness, and he was experience transcendant conciousness at the time he said that, in all likelihood. As such, it a metaphor. One can experience these things commonly with no particular association to the christian religion. Its in the "jungian group mind" and its actually a very good example of having a loving tolerant nature - which is central to mystic experience and visionary states.

I had some visions involving jesus and other biblical things. Without experiencing this sort of thing, it wont make much sense. Its not religious anyway. That said:

I am jesus. I am the light of the morning sun. I am the sparkle in rivers, oceans and snow. I am buddha.

I am nothing. I am dust.

I/We are one, the sons and daughters of "god" and brothers and sisters with each other, the earth, and all the whole cosmos :)

:D

Peace,
Drael

[megafish33]

If Jesus came back, there would be a lot of bitch slapping going around. One can dream... I haven't seen any proofs of his magic in my life so I can't believe in such things.

[friendsinthesky]

I think it's fascinating that David Icke believes in Jesus Christ. I however do not buy the jesus christ story.

[megafish33]

I think it's fascinating that David Icke believes in Jesus Christ. I however do not buy the jesus christ story.

?

He has claimed that JC never existed on numerous occasions.

[sunyatta60]

Interesting video. I like the explanation that we all call each other by different names, but we all use "I" for describing ourselves. But it doesn't prove that Jesus didn't exist. Some Christians claim they feel/know Christ directly, not as some abstract thought, but as a direct experience. I cannot say that they are right or wrong.

Anders, what Tim is talking about in that short clip is something called Docetism.
That makes sense if you think about it because if Consciousness is the creator of our own unique experiences people are going to experience the Jesus Motif differently. And we actually see this happening for example in America and the UK Jesus is perceived to be a White man. Whilst in the Philipines and some parts of South America he is perceived to be a Black man.
Here is another video even shorter for you to consider, it last 16 minutes.

http://www.livevideo.com/video/1FDF3828A6ED4FFA99BCBA6AF9D3710F/who-was-jesus-fingerprints-of.aspx

[basil]

That's an old but very cool video. I think I will watch it again. :)
You really need to watch this video to get the remotest idea of who we really are....
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2588435272514121795&q=pale+blue+dot&total=222&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

[Anders Lindman]

Anders, what Tim is talking about in that short clip is something called Docetism.
That makes sense if you think about it because if Consciousness is the creator of our own unique experiences people are going to experience the Jesus Motif differently. And we actually see this happening for example in America and the UK Jesus is perceived to be a White man. Whilst in the Philipines and some parts of South America he is perceived to be a Black man.
Here is another video even shorter for you to consider, it last 16 minutes.

http://www.livevideo.com/video/1FDF3828A6ED4FFA99BCBA6AF9D3710F/who-was-jesus-fingerprints-of.aspx

It could be that Jesus never existed and it could also be that Jesus actually did exist. We need to have all options on the table.

[Anders Lindman]

You really need to watch this video to get the remotest idea of who we really are....
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=2588435272514121795&q=pale+blue+dot&total=222&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

They say in the video that we domesticated food and animals some 10,000 years ago. I think it was through biotech and genetic manipulation of existing plants and animals that achieved that.

I will watch some more now... :)

[Anders Lindman]

You really need to watch this video to get the remotest idea of who we really are....


I couldn't stand it anymore. They started to talk about natural selection. That is at best an incomplete theory. I would suggest this video with a presentation by Lloyd Pye who really knows what he is talking about:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5494379269931701674

[beldazar]

Hi sunnyata, thanks for the video link, interesting, I still get a bit puzzled tho, didnt jesus say its easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of god? Funny that the elite hold all the wealth then, and wouldnt it put people off striving to put monetary value much higher than humanity? (elite again) and freemasons joining up? Im sure most of them want to join for the benefits they percieve, my dad did, when he got blackballed he joined a 'poor mans' masonic lodge, my mum cant remember what it was called but he wasnt in for long thankfully! And also, why was he seen to piss the romans off so much? Werent they the elite of the times? I have a bit of criticism on the vid I just watched tho, Im sure the bit of 'if thine eye offends you, then pluck it out' wasnt to be taken literally, it just meant that if there was something that you didnt like about yourself then get rid of it. I have no problems at all in disregarding the whole idea of jesus, I have only now found out the whole bunch of lies we have been told so to add another one isnt going to hurt! I do feel sorry for the jesus lovers out there, after all, the good things he was 'meant' to have said are very good spiritual values.

[optimus pigpot]

Worship me and to the unbelievers, you are WANKBOTS!!!!!!! David Icke would win but only because I let him!!!!!!!

Op.

[armoured_amazon]

Will David or anyone in this thread die for me?

/rhetorical question, of course you wouldn't.

Can David or anyone in this thread answer my prayers and provide me with miracles?

/rhetorical question, of course you can't.

Can David or anyone in this thread give me foreign languages in an instant?

/rhetorical question, of course you can't.

I have one thing to say:

"You made your bed, go lie in it alone." (Skin)

Even proof beyond all doubt wouldn’t be enough to persuade some people to live their lives for God instead of themselves (see sig). I see what the problem is; in believing what I say about Jesus you would have to forfeit yourselves as little gods.

Save yourself.

[Anders Lindman]

Darwinian evolution: we evolved from semi-apes to humans. Yeah? Don't think so. So we went from climbing in trees to writing books like Hamlet in a gradual fashion? Plueeese! Or was it by random mutation and a super-fluke chance that we made a leap in evolution? Wait a minute. Not only ONE random supermutation must have happened, but two! Because you must have both one male and one female to continue the random accidental monumental mutation. Sorry, I don't buy it for one millisecond.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[umbrex]

programmed with stupid ideas that you believe are your ideas, but they're not.

now that, is funny!

[intruder]

for the "fiction" of Jesus (personally...I believe he existed) to have SUCH staying power transcends the fickle machinations of man.....doesn't it? If it were fiction, his resonance would have faded. He seems to be the one who's primacy MUST be usurped. Damn...even as a fiction he provides a good example of going against the religious and political elite of his day and I think David Icke can relate to THAT!
Deepak Chopra's latest book is entitled "The Third Jesus"....oh boy, I've yet to read it.

[thirdwave]

Will David or anyone in this thread die for me?

/rhetorical question, of course you wouldn't.

Can David or anyone in this thread answer my prayers and provide me with miracles?

/rhetorical question, of course you can't.

Can David or anyone in this thread give me foreign languages in an instant?

/rhetorical question, of course you can't.

I have one thing to say:

"You made your bed, go lie in it alone." (Skin)

Even proof beyond all doubt wouldn’t be enough to persuade some people to live their lives for God instead of themselves (see sig). I see what the problem is; in believing what I say about Jesus you would have to forfeit yourselves as little gods.

Save yourself.


I don't think its a case of people doubting "God" ...its more a case of the focus of what "God" actually is and what It wants us to do.

I have no doubt that Your self and many others have had great spiritual enlightenments that have had a huge impacted on you and how you view the world and life.... In fact I would say its very likely you have.

But I will never really take in the views that are based on the bible, not from anyone, I have done in the past and I have just given up.

For me its like being a big fan of playing football and seeing a big pitch with a ball and a group of people dyeing to play.... but you have somone wanting you to sit down and talk about the rules, and how important it is that you obey them and don't go off track.... when I already know the rules, I understand them, and why they are put in place... I cant say I will always time my tackles right or that I wont blow my top and get in another players face if things get really heated... But I will do my best and shake hands at the end of the game.... and try to do better then next time... learn from my mistakes.

if you would excuse my little analogy. but that's how I see it.

I think the bible is used as an anchor by most people to make them selves feel grounded and so the feel they belong, and to an extent it does offer this as if you are with a group who's will is of good intent, of course you will feel something positive from it.... but its what others intent are that also comes into it. The thing is, it also stops growth and eventually leaves you and your mind in the hands of others.

Although I think its wrong to generalise and maybe you and a few others do have your own motives.... but I am talking about the vast majority Religious people. I find the most paranoid people I come across in forums are mostly religious people.

[optimus pigpot]

for the "fiction" of Jesus (personally...I believe he existed) to have SUCH staying power transcends the fickle machinations of man.....doesn't it? If it were fiction, his resonance would have faded. He seems to be the one who's primacy MUST be usurped. Damn...even as a fiction he provides a good example of going against the religious and political elite of his day and I think David Icke can relate to THAT!
Deepak Chopra's latest book is entitled "The Third Jesus"....oh boy, I've yet to read it.

Where is your proof he existed. We don't require your belief....

[sunyatta60]

[QUOTE=armoured_amazon;287917]Will David or anyone in this thread die for me?

/rhetorical question, of course you wouldn't.


It could be argued (I am surprised Adimon aint arguing it already) that people are dying for you on a regular basis they are called British Soldiers you silly cow.

And let us be clear people have sacrificed their lives for others, it is called Altruism that Xitian Meme sure fucked your little mind up girl. Get a grip you are a robot, deprogramme and wake uppppppppppppppppppppppppppp. PMSL

[cruise4]

Nobody is dying for me. Lets have that straight. This is one of the manipulations used to justify murder.

[craven dark]

I don't think its a case of people doubting "God" ...its more a case of the focus of what "God" actually is and what It wants us to do.

I have no doubt that Your self and many others have had great spiritual enlightenments that have had a huge impacted on you and how you view the world and life.... In fact I would say its very likely you have.

But I will never really take in the views that are based on the bible, not from anyone, I have done in the past and I have just given up.

For me its like being a big fan of playing football and seeing a big pitch with a ball and a group of people dyeing to play.... but you have somone wanting you to sit down and talk about the rules, and how important it is that you obey them and don't go off track.... when I already know the rules, I understand them, and why they are put in place... I cant say I will always time my tackles right or that I wont blow my top and get in another players face if things get really heated... But I will do my best and shake hands at the end of the game.... and try to do better then next time... learn from my mistakes.

if you would excuse my little analogy. but that's how I see it.

I think the bible is used as an anchor by most people to make them selves feel grounded and so the feel they belong, and to an extent it does offer this as if you are with a group who's will is of good intent, of course you will feel something positive from it.... but its what others intent are that also comes into it. The thing is, it also stops growth and eventually leaves you and your mind in the hands of others.

Although I think its wrong to generalise and maybe you and a few others do have your own motives.... but I am talking about the vast majority Religious people. I find the most paranoid people I come across in forums are mostly religious people.

On the money there Thirdwave.

[sunyatta60]

Nobody is dying for me. Lets have that straight. This is one of the manipulations used to justify murder.


Ok people are being manipulated to die for you in the Services That I accept.
But there are other instances where you have to admit people have died to save other people. This act of selflessness is called Altruism and it disproves the claim made by Amazon that only Jesus would or could die for you. That is the point I am making.

[beldazar]

I thought your point was very good sunyata, sums it up nicely :D. Who cares if jesus (if hes real) died for my sins anyway, what about all the indigenous tribes people who are condemned to hell if they dont believe in god! So many cultures were destroyed by do gooder missionaries! These cultures were doing just fine until along comes christians to try to convert them to save their souls :eek:

[drael]

Will David or anyone in this thread die for me?

Matrydom, simply for u? i dont think jesus would do that, it is useless. Would i die to save humanity, yes possible. I would need much preperation. However i doubt that would be much use in this age either. The light dark war is finally swinging back our way, and other means are in play. The truth is "out there". Go the internet!

The whole concept of "i" and "self" in this shows u have not understood the metaphor of "i am jesus", and the purpose of indentifying with something other than self.

Can David or anyone in this thread answer my prayers and provide me with miracles?

There is a high chance u wouldnt even see a miracle anyway. Perception limits reality. People used to be more open to unusual phenomena. If u do not want to see it, it will not be there. However, i cannot walk on water with this body - yet anyway :) perhaps my imagination is still limited. "I" can do miracles, if i am jesus, back in time, but that doesnt happen often ;)

I dont really want to perform miracles. I like 'gods' plan.

Can "i" answer your prayers? I think the answer to this is probably yes. But there is little that people pray for that is worthy of forfilling, otherwise why would there be a perfect divine plan?

But again, there is no 'i', there is no seperation between me and the mountain, or me and buddha.

Can David or anyone in this thread give me foreign languages in an instant?

This is not speaking in toungues IMO. Your thing does occur in DID which is odd to witness, but thats an aside. Speaking in toungues is a high energy metaphorical contradictive language like zen koans on PCP :) Its pure spirit output, verbally, it transforms the listener at a soul level. It has nothing to do with other "languages". again, too literal on the interpretation. You think jesus spoke in parable cos he liked telling stories? no he didnt want u to literally interpret what he was saying...He wanted to transform the soul of the listener, not the logical mind. Hence also, speaking in toungues. And "The word".

I have one thing to say:

I see what the problem is; in believing what I say about Jesus you would have to forfeit yourselves as little gods.

There is no beleif, that is illusion - it is weak, a house built on sand not stone. There is only knowing. There are no little gods, we are all dust, nothing. But we are sacred in our place in 'god', and this is what people are expressing.

[Anders Lindman]

Would i die to save humanity, yes possible.

The idea of sacrificing oneself is the biggest brain-washing idea in history. People think that the 'noble' idea of sacrificing oneself is something good and honorable. They think that it is their own idea, but it's not. It is an idea created by the predator elite and has thoroughly been programmed into the cannonfodder from the dawn of civilization up until this very day.

[Anders Lindman]

Sacrifice is the root of all evil. Regardless who tells you to sacrifice yourself, be they journalists, priests, family members, friends, school teachers, experts or whoever, then tell them: "How about I give you the finger, and YOU go and sacrifice yourself if that's what you believe in".

[drael]

The idea of sacrificing oneself is the biggest brain-washing idea in history.

Okay?

People think that the 'noble' idea of sacrificing oneself is something good and honorable. They think that it is their own idea, but it's not.

No the idea of sacrificing ones self is not owns own, it is divine wills.

It is an idea created by the predator elite and has thoroughly been programmed into the cannonfodder from the dawn of civilization up until this very day.

Evil is a window, and understanding it a blessing. Sacrifice on this level did IMO have its purpose. There are subtleies to the war on dark and light. That purpose is over however. The ego, the "self" is worth nothing, it is only pain.

[armoured_amazon]

Matrydom, simply for u? i dont think jesus would do that, it is useless. Would i die to save humanity, yes possible. I would need much preperation. However i doubt that would be much use in this age either. The light dark war is finally swinging back our way, and other means are in play. The truth is "out there". Go the internet!

The whole concept of "i" and "self" in this shows u have not understood the metaphor of "i am jesus", and the purpose of indentifying with something other than self.



There is a high chance u wouldnt even see a miracle anyway. Perception limits reality. People used to be more open to unusual phenomena. If u do not want to see it, it will not be there. However, i cannot walk on water with this body - yet anyway :) perhaps my imagination is still limited. "I" can do miracles, if i am jesus, back in time, but that doesnt happen often ;)

I dont really want to perform miracles. I like 'gods' plan.

Can "i" answer your prayers? I think the answer to this is probably yes. But there is little that people pray for that is worthy of forfilling, otherwise why would there be a perfect divine plan?

But again, there is no 'i', there is no seperation between me and the mountain, or me and buddha.

This is not speaking in toungues IMO. Your thing does occur in DID which is odd to witness, but thats an aside. Speaking in toungues is a high energy metaphorical contradictive language like zen koans on PCP :) Its pure spirit output, verbally, it transforms the listener at a soul level. It has nothing to do with other "languages". again, too literal on the interpretation. You think jesus spoke in parable cos he liked telling stories? no he didnt want u to literally interpret what he was saying...He wanted to transform the soul of the listener, not the logical mind. Hence also, speaking in toungues. And "The word".

There is no beleif, that is illusion - it is weak, a house built on sand not stone. There is only knowing. There are no little gods, we are all dust, nothing. But we are sacred in our place in 'god', and this is what people are expressing.

I'm afraid your point on tongues is not true - there are two different types of tongues and which one used (earthly or divine) is dependent on the reason it is being used at the time (prophecy, worship etc) but I enjoy reading your replies so I'll leave it at that. Re: Answering my prayers, no ya can't. God's plan is something you're not yet aware of but you are closer than many.

I must tarry no longer. To bed! To bed!

[drael]

God's plan is something you're not yet aware of but you are closer than many.

From wiki no less!

One of the more famous lines from the Tao Te Ching, for instance, reads:

My words are very easy to know, and very easy to practice;
but there is no one in the world who is able to know and able to practice them. (Legge, 70)

Blessings of light to you for recognising that in me :) But I do not fully accept it yet. I think that is mortal, or so far it is. There is a level of reality i have experienced that i beleive can be a persistant reality for everyone. I can only think of 2012 and the fifth age, the revelations, and return to eden. That said, we all have a long journey ahead, myself included. It is about recognising the "holy spirit", or trinity within us, that which brings us together, all things together in a tangible reality, love. I know we can do it, it is written, time weighs against all opposition, and so also it is in opposition to god, so it is forfeit.

And im prolly about to get bagged as a nutbag, but i dont care. Im all for truth, and i wont stand babylon, and the apple of lies anymore!

[armoured_amazon]

As you wish. Good night.

[grover66]

I'm afraid your point on tongues is not true - there are two different types of tongues and which one used (earthly or divine) is dependent on the reason it is being used at the time (prophecy, worship etc) but I enjoy reading your replies so I'll leave it at that. Re: Answering my prayers, no ya can't. God's plan is something you're not yet aware of but you are closer than many.

I must tarry no longer. To bed! To bed!

I've never heard of that before. As I understand it:

Biblical tongues was the God-given ability to speak another language that the speaker had not learnt. It was not an acquired language, but a language supernaturally given by the Holy Spirit.

The reason why this God-given ability was bestowed upon some of the early Christians is clearly stated in 1 Cor 14:22 “Where tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.”

Basically, from what I've ever seen of it, someone gets up and starts babbling and then someone else with the supposed gift of "interpretation" stands up to interpret what's been said. No purposefully setting out to use either a divine or an earthly tongue about it?

Not saying I believe any of it, mind you. Just stating what Christians actually think of the whole tongues thing.

[drael]

Well, again, blessing to you sister :)

"i" do not "wish", honestly. Just feel the heartbeat of the cosmos, feel ur own connection with god and u might see what i see. Pray, have visions, be joyous happy and blessed.

What is real? IMO not money, nor power or status or sex or drugs but dreams, beauty, art, love, union. If the former is "god" but the later is true, this is not a wish, it is simply an illusion, well metaphorised in the devil or so i beleive - the king of our apparent 'modern' times. We all know what is good, and what is wrong, yet we still do wrong.

We have a duty to dispell this IMO. This isnt about spreading the word anymore, its about a slap in the metaphorical face - "hello good morning - love, good!" :) Light is a warrior too. We are the trumpets of the angels. This is the time.

:)

Anyway, deep blessing on you and your house sister,
Drael

[Anders Lindman]

Okay?



No the idea of sacrificing ones self is not owns own, it is divine wills.



Evil is a window, and understanding it a blessing. Sacrifice on this level did IMO have its purpose. There are subtleies to the war on dark and light. That purpose is over however. The ego, the "self" is worth nothing, it is only pain.

Divine will? You mean the will of the people who think they have the Divine Right to Rule? That's evil mind control. Sacrifice is always evil.

[Anders Lindman]

If you help someone because you like to help, with great joy and passion, then that is good and beautiful. If you help someone just because you think you ought to or you think you should sacrifice yourself, then that's pure evil, then you have been brainwashed, and that's the way the System uses you as a battery, to suck you dry, until you're dead.

[umbrex]

If you help someone because you like to help, with great joy and passion, then that is good and beautiful. If you help someone just because you think you ought to or you think you should sacrifice yourself, then that's pure evil, then you have been brainwashed, and that's the way the System uses you as a battery, to suck you dry, until you're dead.

damn, your opinions suck. black & whiteness ftw eh.

helping because you feel you ought to is a mechanism instilled phylogenetically in the group animal the human. it has less to do with an evil matrix than it has adaptation. Man lives in a hypercomplex reality with a stoneage brain, never forget this! it would seem, that swimming in the matrix has put you under water, unable to see clearly into the distance or bring forth other perspectives than everything not in tune with your oppinion/conviction is evil. tbh your reasoning seems dogmatic and shouldn't be taken serious.

[Anders Lindman]

damn, your opinions suck. black & whiteness ftw eh.

helping because you feel you ought to is a mechanism instilled phylogenetically in the group animal the human. it has less to do with an evil matrix than it has adaptation. Man lives in a hypercomplex reality with a stoneage brain, never forget this! it would seem, that swimming in the matrix has put you under water, unable to see clearly into the distance or bring forth other perspectives than everything not in tune with your oppinion/conviction is evil. tbh your reasoning seems dogmatic and shouldn't be taken serious.

As David Icke said: "People say where there is love there is pain. Bollox!"

David Icke is correct.

[umbrex]

As David Icke said: "People say where there is love there is pain. Bollox!"

David Icke is correct.

so he is your messiah, from whom you get your gospels you can preach to other people ?!

seems to me like your an apostle. newsflash: this isn't palestine, and 2000 years have past since jebus. there's a reality to consider also. try reflecting on what you read.

[Anders Lindman]

so he is your messiah, from whom you get your gospels you can preach to other people ?!

seems to me like your an apostle. newsflash: this isn't palestine, and 2000 years have past since jebus. there's a reality to consider also. try reflecting on what you read.

Actually, I don't think David Icke ever has said that sacrifice is the root of all evil. He may very well disagree totally with that idea. In fact, I haven't heard anyone other than me saying that, but that's because all people have been brainwashed by a predator elite for millenia.

[umbrex]

Actually, I don't think David Icke ever has said that sacrifice is the root of all evil. He may very well disagree totally with that idea.

then u must also realize how stupid a remark it is. sacrifice can be some of the most beautifull and genuine there is. imagine giving up your whole life and area to move to the person you love?!

In fact, I haven't heard anyone other than me saying that, but that's because all people have been brainwashed by a predator elite for millenia.

it's rather sad, that you naturally assume that everyone around you have been brainwashed. by doing so, you devaluate every argument comming your way, and don't worry, it's natural. it's a defense mechanism employed, when you have invested so much energy into something which your surroundings doesn't agree with. honestly, lighten up. this topic (conspiracy) becomes to depressing when u invest so much into it.

[Anders Lindman]

then u must also realize how stupid a remark it is. sacrifice can be some of the most beautifull and genuine there is. imagine giving up your whole life and area to move to the person you love?!



it's rather sad, that you naturally assume that everyone around you have been brainwashed. by doing so, you devaluate every argument comming your way, and don't worry, it's natural. it's a defense mechanism employed, when you have invested so much energy into something which your surroundings doesn't agree with. honestly, lighten up. this topic (conspiracy) becomes to depressing when u invest so much into it.

I'm not looking into conspiracy ideas as a sacrifice. ;) I do it with interest.

Sacrifice is pure evil. It's an evil idea that generates more evil. It acts as a magnet for disaster. Evil propaganda is pumped out minute by minute telling us how glorious sacrifice is. No wonder that people have bought that monumental lie. It's a smokescreen that blinds us from the truth.

[umbrex]

I'm not looking into conspiracy ideas as a sacrifice. ;) I do it with interest.

how the fuck can u ever interpret what i wrote as conspiracy having anything to do with sacrfice ?!

Sacrifice is pure evil. It's an evil idea that generates more evil. It acts as a magnet for disaster.

please explain to me how benevolent sacrifice can ever be evil.

[Anders Lindman]

how the fuck can u ever interpret what i wrote as conspiracy having anything to do with sacrfice ?!



please explain to me how benevolent sacrifice can ever be evil.

You told me to lighten up. I wouldn't look into conspiracy stuff if it would make me sad.

Benevolent sacrifice? For whom? It's evil for the person doing the sacrifice.

[umbrex]

You told me to lighten up. I wouldn't look into conspiracy stuff if it would make me sad.

i find it hard to make sense of this.

Benevolent sacrifice? For whom? It's evil for the person doing the sacrifice.

lets take my example again. There is a man, deeply in love with a woman. He has to move 1000km to be with her, giving up his friends and afamily. But the woman has, at the time, more value for him, it's a chance he feels he has to take. So he gives up his home to be with the woman. He sacrfices his safe environment to pursue another dream. Sure, he gives up the comfort of the people he know, but at the same time he gains. That my friend, isnt evil, unless someone instilled a dogma in the person, making it claim everything involving sacrifice is evil without thinking it through.

Kantianism claims, that in order for something to have moral value, your maxim would have to be made into a general law for it to be moral. If the actions, even though not desirably pursuable are to have moral value, then u ought to do them, by plight, not desire alone, for it to be a moral (good) act. that involves sacrificing the urge to satisfy whatever your goal migt be in order to do a good act.

tbh your view drips of me me me ad ego, and there's irony for ye, in a post with jesus christ in the headline.

[Anders Lindman]

i find it hard to make sense of this.



lets take my example again. There is a man, deeply in love with a woman. He has to move 1000km to be with her, giving up his friends and afamily. But the woman has, at the time, more value for him, it's a chance he feels he has to take. So he gives up his home to be with the woman. He sacrfices his safe environment to pursue another dream. Sure, he gives up the comfort of the people he know, but at the same time he gains. That my friend, isnt evil, unless someone instilled a dogma in the person, making it claim everything involving sacrifice is evil without thinking it through.

Kantianism claims, that in order for something to have moral value, your maxim would have to be made into a general law for it to be moral. If the actions, even though not desirably pursuable are to have moral value, then u ought to do them, by plight, not desire alone, for it to be a moral (good) act. that involves sacrificing the urge to satisfy whatever your goal migt be in order to do a good act.

tbh your view drips of me me me ad ego, and there's irony for ye, in a post with jesus christ in the headline.

If a man leaves his old life to live with another woman, then that's what he wants to do, right? He made a choice. Where is the sacrifice in that?

By sacrifice I mean doing things that one really doesn't want to do.

Often there may be only a choice between one bad thing and another badder thing. That sucks. The trick in those cases is to see if there is another option. That maybe there's always another way.

[umbrex]

By sacrifice I mean doing things that one really doesn't want to do.


well, that isn't sacrifice..

from merriam-webster:
destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else

[armoured_amazon]

please explain to me how benevolent sacrifice can ever be evil.

Benevolent sacrifice can never be evil.

[umbrex]

Benevolent sacrifice can never be evil.

exactly!

[Anders Lindman]

Benevolent sacrifice can never be evil.

Sacrifice can never be benevolent.

[umbrex]

Sacrifice can never be benevolent.

i hope u have the looks!

[armoured_amazon]

Sacrifice can never be benevolent.

By someone like you, no.

[Anders Lindman]

Oh... Wait a minute. Maybe this idea about sacrifice is not mine at all. :eek: Anthony De Mello said something at least very similar. So much for original ideas, eh? :o

[armoured_amazon]

"Anthony de Mello on Mysticism, Spiritual Growth, Self Realization & Spiritual Healing."

Bwahahaha.

[umbrex]

Oh... Wait a minute. Maybe this idea about sacrifice is not mine at all. :eek: Anthony De Mello said something at least very similar. So much for original ideas, eh? :o

That my friend, isn't evil, unless someone instilled a dogma in the person, making it claim everything involving sacrifice is evil without thinking it through..

lols

[armoured_amazon]

Hehehe :D

[umbrex]

checked your myspace.. nice work AA..

skunk anansie flashback :)

[armoured_amazon]

checked your myspace.. nice work AA..

skunk anansie flashback :)

Thanks Umbrex :) I miss Skunk Anansie soooooooooooo much! Lost touch with the drummer since he joined Feeder :mad: but hear from the others now and again.

[Anders Lindman]

By someone like you, no.

I will not sacrifice myself. That's evil.

[umbrex]

Thanks Umbrex :) I miss Skunk Anansie soooooooooooo much! Lost touch with the drummer since he joined Feeder :mad: but hear from the others now and again.

seems like i ought to do the thank yous :)

check out my artform :) http://psygarden.be/gallery/v/3D-Constructions/Stringalicious/

[umbrex]

I will not sacrifice myself. That's evil.

so if u had a daughter, about to be hit by a truck, you wouldnt push her away and take the hit ?!

very noble.

[Anders Lindman]

so if u had a daughter, about to be hit by a truck, you wouldnt push her away and take the hit ?!

very noble.

No way. I would look for a third solution. There's always another way.

[armoured_amazon]

seems like i ought to do the thank yous :)

check out my artform :) http://psygarden.be/gallery/v/3D-Constructions/Stringalicious/

Wow, these are awesome *bookmarks them* How long do they take you to create? How big are they? Do I see one as a stage backdrop?

[umbrex]

thanks :)

well, the star took around 100 hours to make, and the "eye with wings" took around 30.. and yeah, u do see it a stage backdrop, add a few projectorsand a laptop with a splitter and voilá , u have an awesome setting for a party..

the star stands taller than me from point to point, and everything is made at a scale which can be used for stage decoration.. actually it was a hobby which transcended to something more, so now i have the best student job in the world.. free party, free bar and money to take home, but i guess u can relate to that xD

[armoured_amazon]

thanks :)

well, the star took around 100 hours to make, and the "eye with wings" took around 30.. and yeah, u do see it a stage backdrop, add a few projectorsand a laptop with a splitter and voilá , u have an awesome setting for a party..

the star stands taller than me from point to point, and everything is made at a scale which can be used for stage decoration.. actually it was a hobby which transcended to something more, so now i have the best student job in the world.. free party, free bar and money to take home, but i guess u can relate to that xD

Hehe yes I can. :D They're wonderful, I can see them at an Orbital gig or rave or something. Or in a music video. :D

[umbrex]

Hehe yes I can. :D They're wonderful, I can see them at an Orbital gig or rave or something. Or in a music video. :D

it is made with the intention of bringing eye-candy to the electronic scene ..what can i say, i'm a sucker for electronic music and culture. it just suits my beliefs, convictions and preferences so well.. it has become existentialistic to me over the years, an integrated part of who i am.

my goal with it is new experiences and people, so if u ever want it to become part of your endeavor, u know how to get a hold of me :D

[armoured_amazon]

it is made with the intention of bringing eye-candy to the electronic scene ..what can i say, i'm a sucker for electronic music and culture. it just suits my beliefs, convictions and preferences so well.. it has become existentialistic to me over the years, an integrated part of who i am.

my goal with it is new experiences and people, so if u ever want it to become part of your endeavor, u know how to get a hold of me :D

Indeed. It's filed in my head for a future date. :D

[umbrex]

Indeed. It's filed in my head for a future date. :D

awesome :)

[i_am]

Indeed. It's filed in my head for a future date. :D

Can we please get back on topic guys?

Maybe the place to discuss your talents would be in the Forum Talent section not in Anders thread :)

[umbrex]

Can we please get back on topic guys?

Maybe the place to discuss your talents would be in the Forum Talent section not in Anders thread :)

something good had to come off it ;)

[intruder]

Where is your proof he existed. We don't require your belief....

that's very TRUE pigpot!! feel better?

[amethyst]

The idea of sacrificing oneself is the biggest brain-washing idea in history. People think that the 'noble' idea of sacrificing oneself is something good and honorable. They think that it is their own idea, but it's not. It is an idea created by the predator elite and has thoroughly been programmed into the cannonfodder from the dawn of civilization up until this very day.

As one get's closer and closer to the light, there is a cost involved.

Because love is so precious, so exquisite, it can not be had cheaply......and the world tries everything in it's power to cheapen it. But it can never overcome love, because it is eternal, on-going, forever and ever. It is what created this universe. God is love. And dwells in perfect light. And the darkness shall not overcome the light.

A component of love...not a cheap imitation of love, but unfathomable love (a love that never ends)....a component of this.... involves sacrifice.

But only those who are truely willing to fully embrace all facets of love, not just the superficial, false, shallow imitation of love..... will find the light....and become children of light and not darkness.

[sevenworlds]

Tolle has some good teaching and some bad teachings. His idea of 'acceptance of what is' totally sucks and is just a rehash of similar New Age teachings. His description of the pain body, and his body-awareness practice on the other hand are awesome and have helped me a lot.

Can you explain why you think Tolle's 'idea' of acceptance of what is "totally sucks"?

Is it not insane to live any other way? How can what is be anything other than what it is? It already is :) So what's the point of fighting against it? If you watch a tree blowing in the wind there is no struggle. The tree doesn't try and fight back against the wind, it simply ALLOWS the wind to blow it.

Tolle is saying if we start from that place of acceptance of what is, see what happens to your life. Very often amazing things can happen. Powerful action comes through you when your starting point is saying 'yes' to what is. Jesus and David Icke both understood this too :)

[Anders Lindman]

As one get's closer and closer to the light, there is a cost involved.

Because love is so precious, so exquisite, it can not be had cheaply......and the world tries everything in it's power to cheapen it. But it can never overcome love, because it is eternal, on-going, forever and ever. It is what created this universe. God is love. And dwells in perfect light. And the darkness shall not overcome the light.

A component of love...not a cheap imitation of love, but unfathomable love (a love that never ends)....a component of this.... involves sacrifice.

But only those who are truely willing to fully embrace all facets of love, not just the superficial, false, shallow imitation of love..... will find the light....and become children of light and not darkness.

In the past sacrifice may have been needed and that without it we would not have survived. But as someone said: The future is not what it used to be.

Sacrifice is a too primitive and evil tool for the future.

[Anders Lindman]

Can you explain why you think Tolle's 'idea' of acceptance of what is "totally sucks"?

Is it not insane to live any other way? How can what is be anything other than what it is? It already is :) So what's the point of fighting against it? If you watch a tree blowing in the wind there is no struggle. The tree doesn't try and fight back against the wind, it simply ALLOWS the wind to blow it.

Tolle is saying if we start from that place of acceptance of what is, see what happens to your life. Very often amazing things can happen. Powerful action comes through you when your starting point is saying 'yes' to what is. Jesus and David Icke both understood this too :)

Acceptance of what is cannot be real when one suffers. And the future is important, not unimportant as Tolle has said.

[intruder]

Presently, Oprah Winfrey's push of Tolle's "A New Earth" is having QUITE an impact. She also endorses A Course In Miracles, which Tolle has quoted from...
:(

Jesus channelling himself through an atheist Jewish woman to deliver the goods on life, love, and the universe is just SO DAMN CUTE. Then again, Chopra, Dyer, Tolle, and many others quote from this text in such reverential tones that it's nauseating.

[Anders Lindman]

"I accept that I am angry", and "I accept that I get angry at other people being angry"

What kind of acceptance is that? Why is an acceptance like that needed? Isn't that just the attempt to put on another layer of self-deception?

"I accept that I refuse to accept"

:confused:

[intruder]

hopefully Oprah will deliver free copies of Tolle's "A New Earth" to Chinese and Pakistani kids working in various corporate sweat shops and instruct them on "the suchness of this moment".

[intruder]

"I accept that I am angry", and "I accept that I get angry at other people being angry"

What kind of acceptance is that? Why is an acceptance like that needed? Isn't that just the attempt to put on another layer of self-deception?

"I accept that I refuse to accept"

:confused:


I hear you Anders! there are schizophrenic qualities to these "new" doctrines. He essentially disempowers his audience by encouraging them to "accept that they cannot accept" (I've HEARD him say it)

[Anders Lindman]

I hear you Anders! there are schizophrenic qualities to these "new" doctrines. He essentially disempowers his audience by encouraging them to "accept that they cannot accept" (I've HEARD him say it)

Yes, I have heard him saying something like that too. Another thing he talks about is giving up waiting as a state of being. I like to think about it in a slightly different way; that we need to wait for the timing to be right. If a chicken growing inside its eggshell would peck itself out of the egg too early, then it would not be able to survive because it wouldn't be fully developed.

[sevenworlds]

I hear you Anders! there are schizophrenic qualities to these "new" doctrines. He essentially disempowers his audience by encouraging them to "accept that they cannot accept" (I've HEARD him say it)

True, the whole thing is a paradox but it's not schizophrenic. Nobody can explain The Truth with words and be 100% accurate. It can only ever be an approximation.

How is it disempowering to "accept that they cannot accept"? That's one of the keys to liberation. If something dreadful happens to you, you may find it impossible to accept at first. You've pretty much got two choices then - getting more upset at yourself because you can't accept what has happened or fully accepting that IN THIS MOMENT you can't accept what has happened. That doesn't mean you are giving up and saying you will never be able to accept what has happened. It means you are accepting RIGHT NOW that you can't change the way you feel. Try it yourself next time something goes wrong in your life and see what happens...

Yes, I have heard him saying something like that too. Another thing he talks about is giving up waiting as a state of being. I like to think about it in a slightly different way; that we need to wait for the timing to be right. If a chicken growing inside its eggshell would peck itself out of the egg too early, then it would not be able to survive because it wouldn't be fully developed.

Yeah, but the chicken isn't waiting inside the eggshell. It doesn't have a concept of time, thinking "oh another few days and I'll be out of here". It exists in the moment. That's what Eckhart is trying to point out to us. When we are in a queue for example, we only "wait" because it's a deep-seated habit. Our minds are focussed on the reason we are in the queue - which is a future event. But that future event doesn't exist yet. It's just a concept in our head until it takes place. We may never get there (even if it's only a few mins away). The only place life exists is right now where we are and so why not give your full attention (or at least most of it) to that. That's very empowering because it opens to you opportunities and coincidences that you may miss if your mind is in a state of waiting.

[sunyatta60]

I thought your point was very good sunyata, sums it up nicely :D. Who cares if jesus (if hes real) died for my sins anyway, what about all the indigenous tribes people who are condemned to hell if they dont believe in god! So many cultures were destroyed by do gooder missionaries! These cultures were doing just fine until along comes christians to try to convert them to save their souls :eek:

The whole Christian Sin Doctrine is a load of crap and Christendom stands or falls on it. Because if there was no sin then we don't need saving except from these mad nutcases like Amazon and Drael.
The Christian Sin Doctrine was dream't up by Agustine after he had an attack of conscience having lived a very depraved lifestyle. The man was a Philosopher and he wanted to curry favour with the Pope. So he came out with all this crap about sin and how we need saving. It is complete hogwash no wonder the Jews and the Gnostics would not conform and kow tow to the Popes.
If you compare the crap Drael et al believe in and compare it to the Jewish Doctrine of sin you will see what a complete mess they have made of it. Then again it never fails to amuse and amaze me when these Xitian Nut cases claim they know The Tanuch better than the Jews.

[Anders Lindman]

Yeah, but the chicken isn't waiting inside the eggshell. It doesn't have a concept of time, thinking "oh another few days and I'll be out of here". It exists in the moment. That's what Eckhart is trying to point out to us. When we are in a queue for example, we only "wait" because it's a deep-seated habit. Our minds are focussed on the reason we are in the queue - which is a future event. But that future event doesn't exist yet. It's just a concept in our head until it takes place. We may never get there (even if it's only a few mins away). The only place life exists is right now where we are and so why not give your full attention (or at least most of it) to that. That's very empowering because it opens to you opportunities and coincidences that you may miss if your mind is in a state of waiting.

It is helpful to learn how to observe oneself getting stressed in a queue for example. Yet Tolle fails to integrate the past with the present moment. That plus his idea of surrendering to the moment totally suck. It's just a rehash of J. Krishnamurti's ideas, another half-false spiritual teacher.

[Anders Lindman]

It would be cool to take Eckhart Tolle's simple practice of putting awareness into the body and elaborate on it to create a kind of training program. Maybe to also use his concepts of the personal and collective pain body. Those are profound ideas. The rest of his teachings is mostly armchair philosopher stuff based on J. Krishnamurti's "stop thinking", Ram Dass' "Be here now", the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart, Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, Tao Te Ching, the Gospel of Thomas and a few other such teachings.

[sunyatta60]

But that future event doesn't exist yet. It's just a concept in our head until it takes place.

Newsflash Objective reality does not exist, which is why No Scientists worthy of the label will ever claim it does.

Reality is an Illusion Albeit a Very Persistent One.
Albert Einstein

[intruder]

[QUOTE=sevenworlds;289307]True, the whole thing is a paradox but it's not schizophrenic. Nobody can explain The Truth with words and be 100% accurate. It can only ever be an approximation.

How is it disempowering to "accept that they cannot accept"?

...think about it. This is no Zen paradox or koan to be solved.

[craven dark]

David icke vs Jesus Christ

2-1 to David in extra time:D

[Anders Lindman]

But that future event doesn't exist yet. It's just a concept in our head until it takes place.

Newsflash Objective reality does not exist, which is why No Scientists worthy of the label will ever claim it does.

Reality is an Illusion Albeit a Very Persistent One.
Albert Einstein

"Always in motion the future is" -- Yoda

[bigus_dickus]

Anders,

sacrifice doesn't mean what you think it means.

sacrifice (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=sacrifice)
c.1250, from O.Fr. sacrifise (12c.), from L. sacrificium, from sacrificus "performing priestly functions or sacrifices," from sacra "sacred rites" (prop. neut. pl. of sacer "sacred," see sacred) + root of facere "to do, perform" (see factitious). L. sacrificium is glossed in O.E. by ansegdniss. Sense of "something given up for the sake of another" is first recorded 1592. Baseball sense first attested 1880. The verb is first recorded c.1290.

sacred
c.1300, from pp. of obs. verb sacren "to make holy" (c.1225), from O.Fr. sacrer (12c.), from L. sacrare "to make sacred, consecrate," from sacer (gen. sacri) "sacred, dedicated, holy, accursed," from O.L. saceres, which Tucker connects to base *saq- "bind, restrict, enclose, protect," explaining that "words for both 'oath' & 'curse' are regularly words of 'binding.' " But Buck merely groups it with Oscan sakrim, Umbrian sacra and calls it "a distinctive Italic group, without any clear outside connections." Nasalized form is sancire "make sacred, confirm, ratify, ordain." Sacred cow "object of Hindu veneration," is from 1891; fig. sense is first recorded 1910, from Western views of Hinduism.

factitious
1646, from L. factitius "artificial," from factus, pp. of facere "do" (cf. Fr. faire, Sp. hacer), from PIE base *dhe- "to put, to do" (cf. Skt. dadhati "puts, places;" Avestan dadaiti "he puts;" O.Pers. ada "he made;" Hitt. dai- "to place;" Gk. tithenai "to put, set, place;" Lith. deti "to put;" Czech diti, Pol. dziac', Rus. det' "to hide," delat' "to do;" O.H.G. tuon, Ger. tun, O.S., O.E. don "to do;" O.Fris. dua, O.Swed. duon, Goth. gadeths "a doing;" O.N. dalidun "they did").

you are obviously talking about sacrificing one's life being evil. but before our modern societies where we think that sacrificing life for good should be evil, there have been other times when people thought it's ok and the people to be sacrificed considered it an honor. in paganism, before modern religions took over, they would sacrifice a person so that the land would be fertile. they didn't think it was evil, they thought it was good and probably that's what it was. we decide what's good and what's evil and back then, people had different opinions, but had they not been them back then, our modern beliefs would not have turned out to be the way they are.

[sevenworlds]

It is helpful to learn how to observe oneself getting stressed in a queue for example. Yet Tolle fails to integrate the past with the present moment. That plus his idea of surrendering to the moment totally suck. It's just a rehash of J. Krishnamurti's ideas, another half-false spiritual teacher.

You seem to be analysing all of this on an intelluctual level and that's why you are missing what he is really saying. There's no need to integrate the past with the present moment. There is a deep intelligence hidden within the present moment and if you surrender to the Now completely, whatever is needed will be there.

[sevenworlds]

How is it disempowering to "accept that they cannot accept"?

...think about it. This is no Zen paradox or koan to be solved.

No need to think about it. That's the whole point. If you are miserable about the present moment, and therefore cannot accept the present moment, accept that you are miserable. Then see what happens. You will usually find you come out of that misery quicker and move more powerfully into something new. Simple.

[sevenworlds]

Eckhart Tolle's teachings, if you want to call them that, are nothing new. His gift is that he puts it across in a way that is much more simple than many of the traditional Eastern teachers and more relevant for today.

The thinking mind, the very thing he is trying to make you aware of, is what compares and says things like "it's just a rehash of J. Krishnamurti's ideas" and "the rest of his teachings is mostly armchair philosophy stuff". They say essentially the same thing not because one is copying the other but because they are coming from the same place, the one consciousness that underlies everything.

I'm not asking you to believe that though, you have to find it out for yourself because only you can. There is an energy that goes further than the words on the page and if you listen good within yourself you will know who is telling the truth and who is a fake.

Yes, there are many charlatans out there in the spiritual/new age arena but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Eckhart Tolle is a very rare being as he is a living example of what he teaches. He doesn't offer any methods or techniques. It's all about bringing that state of consciousness into everything you do, not just spending two hours a day meditating and then going back into unconscious behaviour the rest of the day.

[sunyatta60]

Eckhart Tolle's teachings, if you want to call them that, are nothing new

I am half way through his book A new earth and he is saying something very similar to Freke and Gandy in their great book The Second Coming. All three men agree and teach that Christ is a State of Consciousness that is why Xitians call Jesus Christ the King. They are confusing a man named Jesus who never existed with Christ which means King.

The Saviour King
At the heart of the perennial philosophy of Gnosticism is a simple but powerful
idea, the implications of which we will be exploring through this book. It is the idea of God as a Big Mind which contains the cosmos and which is becoming conscious of itself through all conscious beings within the cosmos. The purpose of Gnostic
initiation is to awaken in us a recognition of this our shared divine essence.
The Pagan Gnostics mythically represented the idea of the one Consciousness of God that is conscious in all by the image of the “King”. Plotinus, for example writes:

“Consciousness is the King. And we are also the King when we are transformed into the King.”

Based on this Pagan image the original Christians created the image of the “Christ” which, as we discussed previously, is equivalent in meaning to “King”. Paul describes Christ as “the consciousness of God” and teaches that we are all Christ’s body. When we are “baptized into union with him” through Gnostic initiation, “there is no such thing as Jew and Greek, slave and freeman, male and female; for we are all one in Christ Jesus”.
If we replace the word “King” in the previous passage from Plotinus with the Jewish synonym “Christ” we can see just how similar Pagan and Christian Teachings are:

“Consciousness is the Christ. And we are also Christ when we are transformed into the Christ”.

Pagan and Christian Gnostics imagined the initiatory journey to be about awakening the King within. In the Pagan Mysteries the initiate was “enthroned” as a king as part of the initiation ceremonies. Pagan Gnostics of the Cynic school called the realized initiate a “KING” in “THE KINGDOM OF GOD”. Likewise, Christian Gnostics taught that when we realize Gnosis we will become “self-ruled” kings in the Kingdom of God and “reign over the All”. They imagined the triumphant Christian initiate crowned with a halo of light, declaring: “The Light as become a crown on my head”.
Timothy Freke

[Anders Lindman]

Anders,
sacrifice doesn't mean what you think it means.


I was thinking of sacrifice as something I really don't want to do. That kind of sacrifice has been used by the powers that be to manipulate the common people for thousands of years.

[Anders Lindman]

You seem to be analysing all of this on an intelluctual level and that's why you are missing what he is really saying. There's no need to integrate the past with the present moment. There is a deep intelligence hidden within the present moment and if you surrender to the Now completely, whatever is needed will be there.

Tolle has a poor understanding of desire. Desire is a result of past experiences and gives us directions in life. Tolle has only an ad-hoc add-on to explain the past and the future such as "honor the world of form". This is only one example how Tolle fails to integrate the present moment with the past.

[monkyies]

heh you all know nothing. wake up. sacrifice for the lower desires is what you are afraid of. Current evil administration on earth forces sacrifice for evil desires, but true sacrifice is so different.

sacrifice your time for god, nothing less, thats the highest sacrifice.

[Anders Lindman]

sacrifice your time for god, nothing less, thats the highest sacrifice.

That is still to create a division in oneself. The mystics talk about a union with God, not about being a slave to God.

[monkyies]

sir, you do not understand that your beliefs, though very high, are not the same as others beliefs, though they may be high.

some people believe that within the union you are still a individual soul, to a certain extent.

according to the gita, complete spiritual union with god is spiritual hell for the personalists who know that god is the original source, supreme cause, the supreme personality, one who cannot be transcended.

so god cannot be transcended by his own created souls,

remember the word co-creator, that word alone is a powerful truth.

some say that they serve god as slaves in their whole life, and that when they enter the spiritual sky after death, they will still be serving, transcendentally.

If you want to merge, well thats a little scary for most. eternal loving service to the lord shows that you exist forever, while merged.

[monkyies]

That is still to create a division in oneself. The mystics talk about a union with God, not about being a slave to God.

its not a division in yourself. you can be merged but also a little individual.

think of a house with bricks. its all one but each brick has its own qualities but they are all the same material.

[Anders Lindman]

its not a division in yourself. you can be merged but also a little individual.

think of a house with bricks. its all one but each brick has its own qualities but they are all the same material.

That's an important point. We need to preserve our individuality. Ken Wilber talks a lot about integral this and integral that, and that is a crucial key. We are BOTH individuals AND the whole. "I and the Father are one" is an example of such integration. But Jesus Christ hanging on a cross is not my idea of integration.

[monkyies]

jesus was merged in god, but he was not god. he was a parcel, the son.

each soul is like an atom in the lords one spiritual body, but the lord is infinately big and infinately small.

[Anders Lindman]

jesus was merged in god, but he was not god. he was a parcel, the son.

each soul is like an atom in the lords one spiritual body, but the lord is infinately big and infinately small.

Another analogy I came to think of is that each soul is like a television set, and one's individuality depends on what channel one is tuned in on.

[Anders Lindman]

Another analogy I came to think of is that each soul is like a television set, and one's individuality depends on what channel one is tuned in on.

I think that's similar to David Icke's description. Another thing mista Icke has described is that there is only ONE reality.

We can look at reincarnation. Is it real? Yes and no, I think. There is only NOW, and the past is not an ACTUAL line in time that moves away from the now. Instead the past is IN this present moment, ALL of the past. People may remember past lives, but that is just them tuning in to some part of the past. If someone remember having been Cleopatra in a past life, that could be real in the sense that the person can actually tune in to the past and Cleopatra's life. AND, another person can ALSO tune in to the past and Cleopatra's life. That would explain why several people can claim that they have been Cleopatra in their previous life.

So ALL previous lives are imo not something actual. Instead there is only now, and we have NEVER been in an actual past.

What will happen when we die? After death it will still be the SAME reality and the same NOW. It could be that we will experience another 'channel' of reality after death, but it's still the same reality just a different channel so to speak.

I don't think we forget our life when we die. Just as we do not forget our past after a night's sleep.

My idea, and it may sound a little crazy, is that I will not die but instead stay on this planet. This planet is ME. Gaia is my larger identity.

"Let the dead bury the dead" :D

[synergy777]

see there are two jesus's, the one which is a fusion of man/teacher that lived and mystery/solar symbolism.

i believe the man existed, i do not believe the solar symbolism such as being born on the 25th/solar-sol invictus, i do not believe he walked on water/again solar symbolism.

i do not believe he was divinely conceived.

i believe yashuah to be a normal person like us, who aceheived enlightenment and developed his spiritual/mental powers, which is what the cult members like optimus think icke can do.

yashuah never said he was the only son of god, he said we are all the creators/fathers children, thus if the source/creator created us all, what does that make us. our spirit is from the source/creator, our bodies from our parents.

optimus i have read all ickes books, but unlike you i do not follow blindly and i use ickes work as a foundation not the complete answer. i studied all of the data.

icke belives brian desbrough, as in that "whites are from mars", lol

he doesn't even see that aryans are people who follow the vedic life eg compassionate living, veget-arian diet, aryuvedic/holistic medicine, yoga etc. thus anyone who follows the vedic culture is an aryan, from celtic druids, nordic warriors, to indian priests etc.

i have shown that africans, asians, europeans are all one race, i provided dna articles, cultural articles etc.

if icke can know this stuff about matrix/maya/illusion, then he is not the first or the last. people for thousands of years have talked about maya-illusion-matrix, buddha, krishna, yashuah did.

even einstein and huygens showed reality to be a illusion, as in not solid, real but not solid. its the wave/particle duality coupled with electric universe-tesla/holographic construction and finally the observer effect.

its science not some icke monopoly.

so when you say jesus, differentiate between the teacher and the roman/nicene creed product, or is selective recognition your modus operandi?

also as to what i believe or follow, you haven't got a clue bro.

why doesn't icke explain the yashuah, the teacher/rabbi, friend of the poor/oppresssed, rebel/anti establishment. a true revolutionary who even flavius josephus described. explain the sicarri/daggers the zealots who fought against roman/foreign occupation, how time repeats, lol

yashuah today would be labelled a terrorist/insurgent/freedom fighter

research history, religion, science critically analyse, be objective, disprove everything, whats left will be as close to the truth as you can get. be scientific not a fan.

as yashuah said test them by their fruits, ie test the actions, the data, observe/analyse.

as for the old imagination theory/matrix, the could stretch to you, me, and icke etc, so again it falls down.

the aliens/reptiles/feathered serpents/dragons, you and icke speak off, they are in the bible and other religous texts, they are the fallen angels/annunaki, who came from heaven/space.

look at constellations, orion, alpha draconis, pleiades, sirius etc.

the matrix they have us trapped us is symbolic, its spiritual/scientific ignorance.

they keep us in the view we are merely biological beings who live once on earth and thats it, its a symbolic concept.

[sevenworlds]

Tolle has a poor understanding of desire. Desire is a result of past experiences and gives us directions in life. Tolle has only an ad-hoc add-on to explain the past and the future such as "honor the world of form". This is only one example how Tolle fails to integrate the present moment with the past.

"Desire is the need to add something to yourself in order to be yourself more fully." - Eckhart Tolle

Doesn't sound like a poor understanding to me. Whether you desire something superficial like a nice car or whether you desire something noble like saving the world, it all means the same to the ego. It's all based around strengthening your identity as an individual person.

By recognising what desire is, it doesn't mean you will not have a direction in life. It's the ego that wants to trick you into believing that. 'Direction in life' is just another concept anyhow. At an early age we get taught through school, parents, tv that we must have a purpose in life otherwise we're useless. That's an artificial man-made idea, purposely designed to keep us focussed anywhere other than the Now. Desire means you are more interested in the future than this moment. There is something in the future you want that you don't have now and your life doesn't feel complete until you get it. But it's a never-ending quest because once you get it you still won't be satisfied.

The irony is by living in the present moment an outer purpose to your life will emerge automatically and it will have far greater meaning and power than any life direction your ego could dream up. Very few people get to know this to be true because most are scared to dwell completely in the Now in case life passes them by. It's all back-to-front and upside down :)

[Anders Lindman]

"Desire is the need to add something to yourself in order to be yourself more fully." - Eckhart Tolle


That's a pretty good definition if we include in addition to the personal self also the rest of the world (and indeed also the rest of the universe), such as the desire for a world in peace and prosperity. If Tolle is only talking about the 'ego' in relation to desire, then he hasn't grasped the bigger picture.

[bigus_dickus]

I was thinking of sacrifice as something I really don't want to do. That kind of sacrifice has been used by the powers that be to manipulate the common people for thousands of years.

that's the "corrupted" version of sacrifice, used in black magic and other stupid rituals. but sacrifice is not what you really don't want to do. sacrifice is something that someone does consciously with great discipline and freedom. for a holy person, his whole life is a sacrifice, because he examines his mind each moment and takes care so that everything he does or says is sacred, sanctified by his will and intentions.

you think that being free is doing anything you want and fulfilling every desire that the body or mind dictates? think again.

[thirdwave]

see there are two jesus's, the one which is a fusion of man/teacher that lived and mystery/solar symbolism.

i believe the man existed, i do not believe the solar symbolism such as being born on the 25th/solar-sol invictus, i do not believe he walked on water/again solar symbolism.

i do not believe he was divinely conceived.

i believe yashuah to be a normal person like us, who aceheived enlightenment and developed his spiritual/mental powers, which is what the cult members like optimus think icke can do.

yashuah never said he was the only son of god, he said we are all the creators/fathers children, thus if the source/creator created us all, what does that make us. our spirit is from the source/creator, our bodies from our parents.

optimus i have read all ickes books, but unlike you i do not follow blindly and i use ickes work as a foundation not the complete answer. i studied all of the data.

icke belives brian desbrough, as in that "whites are from mars", lol

he doesn't even see that aryans are people who follow the vedic life eg compassionate living, veget-arian diet, aryuvedic/holistic medicine, yoga etc. thus anyone who follows the vedic culture is an aryan, from celtic druids, nordic warriors, to indian priests etc.

i have shown that africans, asians, europeans are all one race, i provided dna articles, cultural articles etc.

if icke can know this stuff about matrix/maya/illusion, then he is not the first or the last. people for thousands of years have talked about maya-illusion-matrix, buddha, krishna, yashuah did.

even einstein and huygens showed reality to be a illusion, as in not solid, real but not solid. its the wave/particle duality coupled with electric universe-tesla/holographic construction and finally the observer effect.

its science not some icke monopoly.

so when you say jesus, differentiate between the teacher and the roman/nicene creed product, or is selective recognition your modus operandi?

also as to what i believe or follow, you haven't got a clue bro.

why doesn't icke explain the yashuah, the teacher/rabbi, friend of the poor/oppresssed, rebel/anti establishment. a true revolutionary who even flavius josephus described. explain the sicarri/daggers the zealots who fought against roman/foreign occupation, how time repeats, lol

yashuah today would be labelled a terrorist/insurgent/freedom fighter

research history, religion, science critically analyse, be objective, disprove everything, whats left will be as close to the truth as you can get. be scientific not a fan.

as yashuah said test them by their fruits, ie test the actions, the data, observe/analyse.

as for the old imagination theory/matrix, the could stretch to you, me, and icke etc, so again it falls down.

the aliens/reptiles/feathered serpents/dragons, you and icke speak off, they are in the bible and other religous texts, they are the fallen angels/annunaki, who came from heaven/space.

look at constellations, orion, alpha draconis, pleiades, sirius etc.

the matrix they have us trapped us is symbolic, its spiritual/scientific ignorance.

they keep us in the view we are merely biological beings who live once on earth and thats it, its a symbolic concept.

I agree with where your coming from..

Well, anyone who claims to be the ONLY enlightened one is not for real IMO .... Jesus was probably just an enlightened person as Icke was, and maybe even used the world "Christ" for the same thing as David Icke goes into "Oneness"...

and people like David Icke ARE the second coming of Christ, I know it sounds crazy like it did years ago when he was bashed for saying what he did...

But its not a case of him being Jesus its a case of him being used as a channel to express the "Christ conciousness" ...as many others are also being used for this.... and as many people on this forum also might start doing, because at the end of the day its something that spreads... you just have people who player a bigger part in spreading it...

And I also think that Jesus would not have been the only person pushing this info.... I think "Paul" ... and others who wrote about Christ where also people who were channelling this energy and teaching others about it....

I find the "powers that be" don't normally lie as such... they are just very good and twisting the truth and leading people way off track....

[Anders Lindman]

that's the "corrupted" version of sacrifice, used in black magic and other stupid rituals. but sacrifice is not what you really don't want to do. sacrifice is something that someone does consciously with great discipline and freedom. for a holy person, his whole life is a sacrifice, because he examines his mind each moment and takes care so that everything he does or says is sacred, sanctified by his will and intentions.

you think that being free is doing anything you want and fulfilling every desire that the body or mind dictates? think again.

The problem is that we have too small desires, and too non-inclusive desires. There is no need for sacrifice. In fact, sacrifice in whatever form draws suffering to itself like a magnet. If you believe sacrifice is good, then you will likely draw events and situations into your life where you can practice sacrifice. But that's not what I would choose.

[bigus_dickus]

The problem is that we have too small desires, and too non-inclusive desires.

i don't understand

There is no need for sacrifice.

yes, you sacrifice other forms of life in order to eat. there is a need to eat, or isn't there?

In fact, sacrifice in whatever form draws suffering to itself like a magnet. If you believe sacrifice is good, then you will likely draw events and situations into your life where you can practice sacrifice.

"sacrifice draws suffering to itself like a magnet"

sacrifice doesn't have a "self", to draw suffering to. and it is not an act to get rid of suffering whatsoever. the suffering cannot sacrifice, because suffering is born from a need.

[Anders Lindman]

i don't understand


We can look at desire as focused attention. If my desires are misguided they will clash with other people's desires, and then the desire is not working well. And if my desires are too non-inclusive they become what we can call egoistic, and that too will result in conflicts. Desire must be FULL FORCE and inclusive enough to not cause conflicts.

[Anders Lindman]

sacrifice doesn't have a "self", to draw suffering to. and it is not an act to get rid of suffering whatsoever. the suffering cannot sacrifice, because suffering is born from a need.

Sacrifice does INDEED have a self in the form of a firm belief system thoroughly stamped into our minds by society from an early age as children and with continuing propaganda throughout our lives.

[drakul]

Jesus himself said we are all the children of god didnt he? Not that he was the only son of god, I will expand on this...we are ALL god! Im sure David himself said something on these lines too :)


Read the Bible: Jesus NEVER said he was the son of GOD.

Jesus ALWAYS said he was the SON OF MAN.

Do you know what that means? There is a huge difference.

[Anders Lindman]

What is sacrifice? If I donate money to starving children, then I do that because they will feel good (hopefully) and I will feel good. Where is the sacrifice in that? That's not a sacrifice. That's a result of my DESIRE.

[bigus_dickus]

Sacrifice does INDEED have a self in the form of a firm belief system thoroughly stamped into our minds by society from an early age as children and with continuing propaganda throughout our lives.

i don't get what you mean. if sacrifice is a self, then who is he or she?

and who is this society you are talking about?

[bigus_dickus]

What is sacrifice? If I donate money to starving children, then I do that because they will feel good (hopefully) and I will feel good. Where is the sacrifice in that? That's not a sacrifice. That's a result of my DESIRE.

read again the definition and etymology of sacrifice. your example is not sacrifice. whether altruism really exists or not is a philosophical problem that hasn't been resolved, many philosophers are still arguing about it.

[Anders Lindman]

i don't get what you mean. if sacrifice is a self, then who is he or she?

and who is this society you are talking about?

Sacrifice is a part of our belief systems. Just like in the past the idea that Earth is flat was a part of our belief systems. Just because something is a part of our belief system doesn't mean it's correct.

Society is the machinery that has stamped the stupid belief about sacrifice into us.

[Anders Lindman]

read again the definition and etymology of sacrifice. your example is not sacrifice. whether altruism really exists or not is a philosophical problem that hasn't been resolved, many philosophers are still arguing about it.

How about a woman sacrificing her own life to save a child? I would say that her belief about sacrifice has drawn that event into her life. People are of course free to sacrifice themselves, but they will also have to take the consequences.

Altruism is best explained as an EXPANSION of one's desire. Desire for money, sex, romance and adventure, fine. Desire for a world in peace and prosperity, fine. Now, here's the kicker: Desire for inner peace. For altruism to be whole and harmonious, there must also be altruism for one's own personal self, not just for others.

[bigus_dickus]

Sacrifice is a part of our belief systems. Just like in the past the idea that Earth is flat was a part of our belief systems. Just because something is a part of our belief system doesn't mean it's correct.

Society is the machinery that has stamped the stupid belief about sacrifice into us.

ok, i can accept that.

how do you explain that in remote regions of earth all people have had similar ideas then and made traditions about them? i didn't say that sacrifice is needed or required by the universe to work, i don't really know. but whether we like it or not, it is something of our past and a part of the present too, so we have to find out what it means if it is supposed to mean something.

so, you mean that nothing can be made 'sacred', a thought, or deed, or something? how would you reason with that?

[bigus_dickus]

How about a woman sacrificing her own life to save a child? I would say that her belief about sacrifice has drawn that event into her life. People are of course free to sacrifice themselves, but they will also have to take the consequences.

good example.

do you know that a thousand of years ago, people in the west didn't care much about their children? or are you taking it for granted that mothers always thought their children's lives as sacred? let me tell you, they put kids to work from preteen age, they let them attend and participate in all their celebrations and orgies. do you know that in the middle ages, one out of five kids in europe made it to adulthood? guess what people of that time thought as 'sacred'.

[Anders Lindman]

ok, i can accept that.

how do you explain that in remote regions of earth all people have had similar ideas then and made traditions about them? i didn't say that sacrifice is needed or required by the universe to work, i don't really know. but whether we like it or not, it is something of our past and a part of the present too, so we have to find out what it means if it is supposed to mean something.

so, you mean that nothing can be made 'sacred', a thought, or deed, or something? how would you reason with that?

All societies throughout history and all over the world have been run, controlled and even set up by predator elites. That may have been needed in the past, but it's time to bring in the power of self-responsibility. When you sacrifice yourself you are not being a responsible person.

We can say that human life is sacred. If you sacrifice your own life to save your child, your neighbour's child or an old lady walking across the street, then you are not treating your own life as sacred.

[Anders Lindman]

good example.

do you know that a thousand of years ago, people in the west didn't care much about their children? or are you taking it for granted that mothers always thought their children's lives as sacred? let me tell you, they put kids to work from preteen age, they let them attend and participate in all their celebrations and orgies. do you know that in the middle ages, one out of five kids in europe made it to adulthood? guess what people of that time thought as 'sacred'.

We still today don't treat our children well, although it's getting better. For example, we may buy products made using child labor. I wouldn't call that taking care of our children.

[bigus_dickus]

All societies throughout history and all over the world have been run, controlled and even set up by predator elites. That may have been needed in the past, but it's time to bring in the power of self-responsibility. When you sacrifice yourself you are not being a responsible person.

no, not all societies and not throughout history. there have been good times, but they are forgotten. there are no valleys without peaks. do you think that people know how to be governed? maybe once they did, but they forgot.

We can say that human life is sacred. If you sacrifice your own life to save your child, your neighbour's child or an old lady walking across the street, then you are not treating your own life as sacred.

see that's the problem of altruism. it's always how you see it.

[bigus_dickus]

We still today don't treat our children well, although it's getting better. For example, we may buy products made using child labor. I wouldn't call that taking care of our children.

the other day, some people found an alive baby, just born with the umbilical cord attached, in a garbage bin, minutes before it would be crushed inside the garbage truck.

how do you feel about that?

[Anders Lindman]

see that's the problem of altruism. it's always how you see it.

The concept of altruism has been twisted by the controlling power elite, and we have swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

[Anders Lindman]

the other day, some people found an alive baby, just born with the umbilical cord attached, in a garbage bin, minutes before it would be crushed inside the garbage truck.

how do you feel about that?

That's what happen when people think they need to sacrifice themselves or other people.

[bigus_dickus]

The concept of altruism has been twisted by the controlling power elite, and we have swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

you mean that you know the true concept of altruism? so, what is it? and what is the lie that we have swallowed?

[bigus_dickus]

That's what happen when people think they need to sacrifice themselves or other people.

pardon?

[Anders Lindman]

Here's what I mean by the elite having twisted the concept of altruism:

"Altruism is an ethical doctrine that holds that individuals have a moral obligation to help, serve, or benefit others, if necessary at the sacrifice of self interest."

From: http://www.answers.com/topic/altruism-ethics

It is perhaps the stongest and most wicked tool the elite has used and are still using to make people police each other, and to make them willing to sacrifice themselves.

[Anders Lindman]

you mean that you know the true concept of altruism? so, what is it? and what is the lie that we have swallowed?

As altruism is defined today, it is built on the idea of separation. At first it may look at something good to sacrifice oneself for the benefit of others, but it's a sneaky part that is not at first obvious: it says: do something bad to yourself in order to make something good for others. That's the worst kind of separation imaginable. We must include BOTH others AND ourselves in our actions.

[titurel]

I just cant fathom how you can come to that conclusion....

and with 2500 people looking forward to hearing him talk for 7 hours I don't think he has any reason to be embarrassed, many people are starting to wake up and see the things David Icke goes into.... the truth is starting to shine and will continue to get brighter....
Sheer numbers of people does not make anyone right...

"Enter through the narrow gate.
For wide is the gate and broad is the
road that leads to destruction, and many
enter through it. But small is the gate
and narrow the road that leads to life,
and only a few find it" (Matthew 7:13,14)

[Anders Lindman]

pardon?

Some mother has sacrificed her child, no?

[titurel]

Read the Bible: Jesus NEVER said he was the son of GOD.

Jesus ALWAYS said he was the SON OF MAN.

Do you know what that means? There is a huge difference.
Jesus said he was both the Son of man and the Son of God. He said he was the unique Son of God by stating that only through him, and through no one else, could anyone enter into HIS Kingdom.

[bigus_dickus]

As altruism is defined today, it is built on the idea of separation. At first it may look at something good to sacrifice oneself for the benefit of others, but it's a sneaky part that is not at first obvious: it says: do something bad to yourself in order to make something good for others. That's the worst kind of separation imaginable. We must include BOTH others AND ourselves in our actions.

that is because altruism is unselfishness, the opposite of egoism. but some argue that altruism if practiced, it is done for the benefit of the ego. then they are troubled about what the benefit of the self would be and whether the general good is the good of the self also and what matters more or less and how these are distinguished.

but, sacrifice is not altruism and vice versa. that's why i posted the definitions. sacrifice can be anything that you do as being sacred, not killing humans or animals or ourselves. for example, people used to offer a part of their harvest to the gods, others offered animals and then ate them. in fact, in ancient times, people would only consume meat during such festivals.

[bigus_dickus]

Some mother has sacrificed her child, no?

no, some mother dumped her child.

[Anders Lindman]

that is because altruism is unselfishness, the opposite of egoism. but some argue that altruism if practiced, it is done for the benefit of the ego. then they are troubled about what the benefit of the self would be and whether the general good is the good of the self also and what matters more or less and how these are distinguished.

but, sacrifice is not altruism and vice versa. that's why i posted the definitions. sacrifice can be anything that you do as being sacred, not killing humans or animals or ourselves. for example, people used to offer a part of their harvest to the gods, others offered animals and then ate them. in fact, in ancient times, people would only consume meat during such festivals.

We must look at altruism at different levels I think. Carol Gillian has explained this:

"According to Gilligan, men develop through the moral hierarchy using a logic of justice and autonomy, whereas women develop through the same hierarchy but "in a different voice," a voice of care and relationship. In that and later books, Gilligan called the four stages of female hierarchy: selfish, care, universal care, and integrated (which we sometimes summarize as egocentric, ethnocentric, worldcentric, and integrated)."

From: http://in.integralinstitute.org/talk.aspx?id=175

The stages are:

Egocentric - Including only oneself
Ethnocentric - Including only oneself, one's family and community/nation
Worldcentric - Including the whole world
Integral - Including all of cosmos

When we move up in the stages, it doesn't mean that the lower stages should be excluded. When we go from egocentric to ethnocentric for example, it doesn't mean that the personal self should be excluded. So altruism must include both self and others, or else it becomes sacrifice.

[Anders Lindman]

no, some mother dumped her child.

Ok, that can have been the case. But it's also possible that the mother made a sacrifice.

[Anders Lindman]

The stages are:

Egocentric - Including only oneself
Ethnocentric - Including only oneself, one's family and community/nation
Worldcentric - Including the whole world
Integral - Including all of cosmos


Eeek! I just got an idea. Maybe it's perfectly ok to have altruism defined as only caring about others in the first three stages described by Gillian. And that the integral stage is an integration of the other three. This means that altruism in the first three stages; egocentric, ethnocentric, and worldcentric is about caring only about others, and that in the integral stage altruism is caring of both others and oneself. :cool:

[Anders Lindman]

Gillians stages could also be used for desire:

Egocentric - Desires only related to oneself
Ethnocentric - Desires related to one's family and community/nation
Worldcentric - Desires related to the whole world
Integral - An integration of the other levels of desire

Then at the integral level it's possible to have desires that include both oneself and others without causing conflict. That would explain why desires so often can be destructive. Only at the integral level can desires have full force without causing harm to oneself and others.

[megafish33]

...
Integral - An integration of the other levels of desire

Then at the integral level it's possible to have desires that include both oneself and others without causing conflict....

Ken Wilber?

[Anders Lindman]

Ken Wilber?

Yes, I got these ideas using a sort of Ken Wilber approach. Like Eckhart Tolle, Ken Wilber also is only half-correct. For example Ken Wilber says that pain only becomes suffering when there is resistance to the pain. That's almost the most stupid thing I've heard, next to Tolle's 'acceptance of what is'. :D

[umbrex]

For example Ken Wilber says that pain only becomes suffering when there is resistance to the pain. That's almost the most stupid thing I've heard, next to Tolle's 'acceptance of what is'. :D

that's actually quite nicely put.. ken wilber that is

[Anders Lindman]

that's actually quite nicely put.. ken wilber that is

Yes, I strongly suspect that Ken Wilber is wrong about that. Pain is ALREADY a form of resistance. Pain is some kind of mental, emotional and biological conflict, an imbalance where some parts are struggling against (resisting) other parts. And since pain is already a form of resistance it is suffering per Wilber's own definition.

[kingdavid]

In thousands of years down the track icke will be talked about as jesus figer thats if there is still humans here he will go down i history as one of the greats.

[Anders Lindman]

In thousands of years down the track icke will be talked about as jesus figer thats if there is still humans here he will go down i history as one of the greats.

He needs to do some stunts before that, like walking on water instead of taking the ferry to Isle of Wight. ;)

[umbrex]

Yes, I strongly suspect that Ken Wilber is wrong about that. Pain is ALREADY a form of resistance. Pain is some kind of mental, emotional and biological conflict, an imbalance where some parts are struggling against (resisting) other parts. And since pain is already a form of resistance it is suffering per Wilber's own definition.

are u stupid, or do u just make stuff up for fun ?

[Anders Lindman]

are u stupid, or do u just make stuff up for fun ?

My point is that Ken Wilber's description of pain only being suffering when it is being resisted it wrong. Think about it: do you call pain suffering or not?

[bigus_dickus]

My point is that Ken Wilber's description of pain only being suffering when it is being resisted it wrong. Think about it: do you call pain suffering or not?

pain is NOT suffering.

[Anders Lindman]

pain is NOT suffering.

So this stuff about Jesus Christ suffering on the cross was.....what....pleasure?

[bigus_dickus]

Egocentric - Including only oneself
Ethnocentric - Including only oneself, one's family and community/nation
Worldcentric - Including the whole world
Integral - Including all of cosmos

When we move up in the stages, it doesn't mean that the lower stages should be excluded. When we go from egocentric to ethnocentric for example, it doesn't mean that the personal self should be excluded. So altruism must include both self and others, or else it becomes sacrifice.

it is not needed. you don't need to be centered anywhere and you don't need to be an altruist or anything. needing is desire and it is egocentric.

you have to understand that you ego is not only your self, but whatever you identify it with. your ego can be the "couple" ego, you and your mate, or the "family ego", your family is more important than you, or the "national ego", your nation is more important. you are not a real altruist when your ego is cosmic, it is still an ego. that's why the division between altruism and egocentric is always relative, because it's the same one thing, but we divide it to "stages" according to what we identify with.

in the real word, there is no "ego". that's why there is no one to suffer. that's why Jesus took all this pain, but didn't suffer, that's why all the egos want to kill him.

[umbrex]

My point is that Ken Wilber's description of pain only being suffering when it is being resisted it wrong. Think about it: do you call pain suffering or not?

anders...

u add meaning and definition to words as what you think they mean.. (pain & sacrifice in this post alone).. you construct the meaning of them according to how they would fit into your context.

but since your definitions are wrong, your arguments fall to the floor.. hard! and honestly you come of as being ignorant and stubborn. pain is a physical reaction to external stimuli and cannot be resisted per say. resisting a situation, which in one way or another causes pain (ie. jesus on the cross), can be called suffering, and it is actually a very valid and ingenious point from a philosophical POV.
Sacrifice is giving up something for something/one else and can hence be benevolent, and not always evil - i even gave u a definition of sacrifice, but your mindset was so tuned to the meaning your added, that you didn't even consider it in your future posts.

sorry, but that is either bright, nor insightfull, but displays your nimble intellect and i hope that this will make you think about the things you read, instead of reading, accepting and spreading shit on the internet which doesn't make sense.

[Anders Lindman]

it is not needed. you don't need to be centered anywhere and you don't need to be an altruist or anything. needing is desire and it is egocentric.

you have to understand that you ego is not only your self, but whatever you identify it with. your ego can be the "couple" ego, you and your mate, or the "family ego", your family is more important than you, or the "national ego", your nation is more important. you are not a real altruist when your ego is cosmic, it is still an ego. that's why the division between altruism and egocentric is always relative, because it's the same one thing, but we divide it to "stages" according to what we identify with.

in the real word, there is no "ego". that's why there is no one to suffer. that's why Jesus took all this pain, but didn't suffer, that's why all the egos want to kill him.

The ego is basically our past experiences. Desire gives us direction, meaning and purpose in life.

[Anders Lindman]

anders...

u add meaning and definition to words as what you think they mean.. (pain & sacrifice in this post alone).. you construct the meaning of them according to how they would fit into your context.

but since your definitions are wrong, your arguments fall to the floor.. hard! and honestly you come of as being ignorant and stubborn. pain is a physical reaction to external stimuli and cannot be resisted per say. resisting a situation, which in one way or another causes pain (ie. jesus on the cross), can be called suffering, and it is actually a very valid and ingenious point from a philosophical POV.
Sacrifice is giving up something for something/one else and can hence be benevolent, and not always evil - i even gave u a definition of sacrifice, but your mindset was so tuned to the meaning your added, that you didn't even consider it in your future posts.

sorry, but that is either bright, nor insightfull, but displays your nimble intellect and i hope that this will make you think about the things you read, instead of reading, accepting and spreading shit on the internet which doesn't make sense.

Pain is suffering. Sacrifice is pain.

[umbrex]

The ego is basically our past experiences.

wrong again.. that is the life narrative. the ego is the selfsustaining function which directs you towards or away from urges/desires/the view of others in a dialiectic vortex of the id, the ego and the super-ego (i study psychology).

[umbrex]

Pain is suffering. Sacrifice is pain.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c330/goatripper/STFU.jpg

[bigus_dickus]

The ego is basically our past experiences. Desire gives us direction, meaning and purpose in life.

it is not our past experience, it is the memory of our past experiences plus a lot more stuff. whatever desire does, you decide. most of our desires today are guided from tv commercials.

[Anders Lindman]

wrong again.. that is the life narrative. the ego is the selfsustaining function which directs you towards or away from urges/desires/the view of others in a dialiectic vortex of the id, the ego and the super-ego (i study psychology).

The ego is our personality, our uniqueness and individuality. It's not something 'bad' per se.

[Anders Lindman]

it is not our past experience, it is the memory of our past experiences plus a lot more stuff. whatever desire does, you decide. most of our desires today are guided from tv commercials.

Absolutely. Many of our desires have been programmed into us. Desire-programming is perhaps the strongest tool used by propaganda manipulators.

[Anders Lindman]

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c330/goatripper/STFU.jpg

That looks like a commercial to me. :eek: You are trying to program my desires. :mad::D

[umbrex]

The ego is our personality

nope..

our uniqueness and individuality.

try self concept and narrative..

It's not something 'bad' per se.

right

very ambitious of you to try to teach a psychology student on his own stuff.. and yes, it is an add; for STFU

[Anders Lindman]

nope..



try self concept and narrative..



right

very ambitious of you to try to teach a psychology student on his own stuff.. and yes, it is an add; for STFU

It depends on how the ego is defined. I don't know how the ego is defined in psychology. One variation is that the ego is the "me" and the shadow is the "not me". Our experiences then consist of both the ego and the shadow.

[bigus_dickus]

Absolutely. Many of our desires have been programmed into us. Desire-programming is perhaps the strongest tool used by propaganda manipulators.

that's why Jesus (and other wise men) say not to pay attention to these desires, because they appeal to the ego and the ego is fake. it is something that you have built, a concept about your mental body, an idea.

[Anders Lindman]

that's why Jesus (and other wise men) say not to pay attention to these desires, because they appeal to the ego and the ego is fake. it is something that you have built, a concept about your mental body, an idea.

I'm trying to wrap my mind around what the ego is. A fairly good explanation would be that the ego is the "me" and the shadow is the "not me" of all of my past experiences, i.e. all of my memories, including subconscious programs and epigenetic and genetic programming.

If I say "my wife", then the wife is a part of my ego, and if I say "my wife watches too much television" then the wife is a part of my shadow.

[umbrex]

It depends on how the ego is defined.

the ego is defined as i wrote it!


I don't know how the ego is defined in psychology.

...


One variation is that the ego is the "me" and the shadow is the "not me". Our experiences then consist of both the ego and the shadow.

another class example of how you CONSTRUCT a meaning, without knowing shit about it.. your definition above is an odd mix of the McAdams/william james selfc-concept coupled with the persona/shadow of Jung.

Listen up man.. an argument has no point if it goes one way only, and your dogmatic views are often false, robbed of sense, and expresses a rather nasty trait in you.

[Anders Lindman]

the ego is defined as i wrote it!




...




another class example of how you CONSTRUCT a meaning, without knowing shit about it.. your definition above is an odd mix of the McAdams/william james selfc-concept coupled with the persona/shadow of Jung.

Listen up man.. an argument has no point if it goes one way only, and your dogmatic views are often false, robbed of sense, and expresses a rather nasty trait in you.

You mean the ego is self concept and narrative? Sounds a bit fuzzy to me.

I think I will stick to the ego being the "me" and the shadow being the "not me" or else I will spin off on a Tavistock tangent. :D

[umbrex]

I'm trying to wrap my mind around what the ego is. A fairly good explanation would be that the ego is the "me" and the shadow is the "not me" of all of my past experiences, i.e. all of my memories, including subconscious programs and epigenetic and genetic programming.

go back to my post and read what exactly the ego is...

If I say "my wife", then the wife is a part of my ego,

your wife would rather be a part of your self concept, which means that you have integrated her into your life-story..

and if I say "my wife watches too much television" then the wife is a part of my shadow.

pocket philosophy, again, the lack of knowlegde is staggering and yet another example of how you think up the meaning, stick with it and explain us how things are connected.

[umbrex]

You mean the ego is self concept and narrative? Sounds a bit fuzzy to me.

i explained it in a previous post.. how u make this connection makes no sense..

I think I will stick to the ego being the "me" and the shadow being the "not me" or else I will spin off on a Tavistock tangent. :D

well, have a nice time in wonderland then..

[Anders Lindman]

go back to my post and read what exactly the ego is...



your wife would rather be a part of your self concept, which means that you have integrated her into your life-story..



pocket philosophy, again, the lack of knowlegde is staggering and yet another example of how you think up the meaning, stick with it and explain us how things are connected.

I will stick to my own definition of the ego. Our personality is made up of our past experiences, including our experiences from childhood up to today, but also experiences absorbed as a baby, and even experiences as a fetus, and even before that going back into genetics, epigenetics and so on. That personality can be divided into ego and shadow. The ego is the "me" and the shadow is the "not me".

Mainstream psychology is a Tavistock product. Ask Alan Watt.

[umbrex]

I will stick to my own definition of the ego.

thank you for proving my point..

Mainstream psychology is a Tavistock product. Ask Alan Watt

and again.

this is your estimate which you build on absolutely nothing:

Our personality is made up of our past experiences, including our experiences from childhood up to today, but also experiences absorbed as a baby, and even experiences as a fetus, and even before that going back into genetics, epigenetics and so on. That personality can be divided into ego and shadow. The ego is the "me" and the shadow is the "not me".

there are so many things wrong with this, but tbh - i think the best thing for me to do is just keeping clear of your posts.

have a nice day.

[Anders Lindman]

thank you for proving my point..



and again.

this is your estimate which you build on absolutely nothing:



there are so many things wrong with this, but tbh - i think the best thing for me to do is just keeping clear of your posts.

have a nice day.

I was exaggerating a bit about mainstream psychology being a Tavistock product. Many things in mainstream science are no doubt sincere, but it's good to be a bit paranoid because much propaganda and engineered manipulation has in fact been going on in the past and is still going on today.

[joyful]

Come on. You never see them both together.

[amethyst]

Pain is suffering. Sacrifice is pain.

But pain can also be a teacher. The greatest thing that the human condition strives to avoid is pain. We medicate it. We run away from it. We pretend we don't have it and try to pretend to others that we do not have it. But people can usually see right through this. Even when we think we are fooling them.

But I think if we realise, that some of our most painful lessons can be our greatest teachers, then we are free to embrace all aspects of ourselves, and thus live in acceptance and peace. But it takes work to arrive at this place. It is not an overnight thing. Good things do not always come instantaneously. We live in an instant society and want instant answers to our problems. That's one of the major problems with our world today, I think.

We've got everyone running and running around wanting what they want right now, and bumping into each other. And no one is stopping to see that this is making us lose sight of ourselves and who we really are. And making us sick also.

The way our world is set up today is geared towards instantaneous satisfaction.
But outside of our finite world, there isn't that element of wanting something right now, right this minute. This idea should be our focus I think. To stop..... and focus......on what's really important.

It is the journey at arriving at the answers, where we find truth, and included in that journey involves pain along the way. Iit isn't easy, but in the long run, it produces a garden of treasure for ourselves, and for others to enjoy....if we are willing to embrace it.

[snoopsnuffleopagus]

But pain can also be a teacher. The greatest thing that the human condition strives to avoid is pain. We medicate it. We run away from it. We pretend we don't have it and try to pretend to others that we do not have it. But people can usually see right through this. Even when we think we are fooling them.

But I think if we realise, that some of our most painful lessons can be our greatest teachers, then we are free to embrace all aspects of ourselves, and thus live in acceptance and peace. But it takes work to arrive at this place. It is not an overnight thing. Good things do not always come instantaneously. We live in an instant society and want instant answers to our problems. That's one of the major problems with our world today, I think.

We've got everyone running and running around wanting what they want right now, and bumping into each other. And no one is stopping to see that this is making us lose sight of ourselves and who we really are. And making us sick also.

The way our world is set up today is geared towards instantaneous satisfaction.
But outside of our finite world, there isn't that element of wanting something right now, right this minute. This idea should be our focus I think. To stop..... and focus......on what's really important.

It is the journey at arriving at the answers, where we find truth, and included in that journey involves pain along the way. Iit isn't easy, but in the long run, it produces a garden of treasure for ourselves, and for others to enjoy....if we are willing to embrace it.



Cordial Feline-itations Amethyst:

What a wonderfully sincere and heart-felt Post.


Thank You



An Old Saying:

"Faut souffrir pour etre belle"


"It is necessary to suffer to be beautiful"



So there is no: "David Icke vs Jesus Christ"


David Icke, and all mortal Humans; Partially Complete


Yahshua (Jesus) Fully Completed Being-The Full Measure of Humanity



And there is much evidence of suffering along His Path, as there is with Mr. Icke and many, many other Humans.



No Conflict



Unity




Kind Regards: Snoopsnuffleopagus

[Anders Lindman]

But pain can also be a teacher. The greatest thing that the human condition strives to avoid is pain. We medicate it. We run away from it.

Yes, Bruce Lipton compared pain and other signals to gages on a dashboard in a car. The pain is a signal indicating some problem. To use drugs just to remove the pain is like removing/disconnecting the gages on the dashboard.

So pain is a useful signal telling us that there is something wrong. If a message "Engine Overheated" starts flashing on the dashboard, then that tells us something. Removing the warning signal, or covering it, doesn't solve the underlying problem. So I totally agree that pain as a warning signal is useful. But we are not supposed to 'accept the pain' without fixing the underlying problem(s). That would be like looking at the message "Engine Overheated" flashing and saying: "I accept this flashing message, because I am soooo enlightened" without doing anything to check and fix the actual condition, or to cover the flashing message with a sticker so that it is not disturbing anymore.

[bigus_dickus]

But we are not supposed to 'accept the pain' without fixing the underlying problem(s).

how do you fix the problems when you deny the pain and try to patch it with mental bullcrap?

[amethyst]

Yes, Bruce Lipton compared pain and other signals to gages on a dashboard in a car. The pain is a signal indicating some problem. To use drugs just to remove the pain is like removing/disconnecting the gages on the dashboard.

So pain is a useful signal telling us that there is something wrong. If a message "Engine Overheated" starts flashing on the dashboard, then that tells us something. Removing the warning signal, or covering it, doesn't solve the underlying problem. So I totally agree that pain as a warning signal is useful. But we are not supposed to 'accept the pain' without fixing the underlying problem(s). That would be like looking at the message "Engine Overheated" flashing and saying: "I accept this flashing message, because I am soooo enlightened" without doing anything to check and fix the actual condition, or to cover the flashing message with a sticker so that it is not disturbing anymore.

Yes, I agree with you that pain can be a signal in indicating some problem. That is the starting point in essence.

What I guess I'm talking about, is pain can be an instuctor.....to lead us to the place where we reach the end of ourselves and....when we arrive at that place of barreness.....it can be a place of total surrender. Where we cease from striving and fighting and wearing ourselves out and learn to find acceptance...and with acceptance, peace. Divine peace. Because this thread is in part about Jesus, I use Him as an example of one who represents divine peace and surrender.

I will give another example. Have you ever gotten in your car and decided to take a drive, and you are just driving along with absolutely no place that you have to be and no itenerary you have to follow and you are simply driving in.....the moment?

Maybe you have all the windows rolled down, and the wind is blowing through your hair and you are just simply caught up in it...the moment...the wonder of it all........and there is no one you have to impress and you want nothing from anyone else......and you have just ceased from.......yourself? You just surrender to the infinite....the knowing.

Sometimes pain I think, can lead us to this place of knowing.

[Anders Lindman]

how do you fix the problems when you deny the pain and try to patch it with mental bullcrap?

The first step is to recognize that the pain is a signal indicating that something is wrong. We then can go to a doctor, but that could be a bad choice because the doctor often just will give you a prescription drug which in most cases only hides the sympton and doesn't fix the actual condition. It's like when you take your car to have it repaired, and the mechanic goes in under the dashboard and pulls out the little lightbulb for the sign that says "Engine Overheated".

So external 'things' like doctors, hospitals and drugs will not fix the problem everytime. And then we have to fix the problem ourselves. How? Simply put conscious awareness into the pain and it will melt away like a snowball in a hot stove.

[drael]

^^^ +1

Its so wicked that david said that stuff about being jesus IMO. Beautiful, and courageous. I/we are loved/loving! You are me, and i am the morning sun :)