The so called Illuminati

[dann]

Wht don't the Illuminati stop this web site?

[ownedtbh]

why stop it when u can monitor it

[adimon]

The elite powers, as I perceive them to be, are essentially ruthless businessmen.

This forum does not affect their business transactions one iota.

[91181]

Wht don't the Illuminati stop this web site?




because Icke's illuminati ??


IMO if they was that bothered they wouldnt have give us the net in the first place ... Gift and the Curse

[spiraltrance]

Wht don't the Illuminati stop this web site?

I'd say the illuminati's power lies in knowledge of cause and effect. They don't need to stop this website because they've already stoped any threat to there power at a more subtle level.

[spiraltrance]

Also I think many people don't understand what the illuminati really is. At the deepest level it's not a group of people as such, it's a sphere or form of consciousness that operates through select individuals.

It'll manifest itself transiently as thoughts, motivations, flashes of intuition and desires to pursue certain belief systems possibly without some of it's 'operatives' even realising the origin of these thought-waves.

It's not the only 'wave' of consciousness that operates this way either.

[duncan87]

Banning it would be too obvious.

[spiraltrance]

IMO if they was that bothered they wouldnt have give us the net in the first place ... Gift and the Curse

technology is very closely linked to and mimics our level of consciousness. the internet was coming whether they liked it or not.

[dann]

If they were true?
They would so its wrong!!

It6s got to be wrong!!

What else could be in control?

[spiraltrance]

If they were true?
They would so its wrong!!

It6s got to be wrong!!

What else could be in control?

They are a group of people. The real driving force on this planet is not a group of people I think.

[dann]

They are a group of people. The real driving force on this planet is not a group of people I think.

Your right I feel some one come here soon with the answer

[chandrakavi]

Why stop the website when they can INFILTRATE IT?
as they have done with all order of things
from a REAL History of the World, given us a OFFICIAL ONE.
They don't destroy, they change it around. All the time.
Businessmen? Right, it can become their business, eventually.
After some time, they will IMPOSE their version of how things "are".
EVer hfeard oof the intelligence services of the world monitoring?

[dann]

I have emailed nearly every big company in the wrold asking them to shut this web site down and nothing has happened?/

so its all aload of bull monkey dribble

[drael]

Umm because to put the stopper on the bottle theyd need to close the whole internet? They dont like leaving obvious trails....the top ten google videos are all alternative info. Torsion theory is now as popular a search as UFOs. The whole beast is completly out of their control, because they rely on secrecy and the internet is open.

If u disagree with all this, what exactly are u doing here? Do not think such simplistic thinking will sway anyone deep in experience in this truth - if u are with them! If not, why dont u just look at all the research and info and make ur mind up when uv seen it?!

Honestly, u are assuming the ptb are all powerful, can do anything without public analysis and are immune to the freedom of information that this modern age of internet provides - they are not any of these things, nor does that seem like a reasonable or rational postion in my personal opinion. The ptb are human, rely on their tried and true practices of complete secrecy. To close down icke would make it much more real to everyone.

Why exactly would u dismiss new information without truely reveiwing or thinking about it?

[dann]

Umm because to put the stopper on the bottle theyd need to close the whole internet? They dont like leaving obvious trails....

Its because its because???? A load of bull!! its not real thats why

[paganus]

because it doesnt matter?

[montag]

I have emailed nearly every big company in the wrold asking them to shut this web site down and nothing has happened?/

so its all aload of bull monkey dribble
Why would you want to have this site shut down dann?

[drael]

Its because its because???? A load of bull!! its not real thats why

This reply does not refer to anything ive said.

Again, why are u here?

[dann]

Why would you want to have this site shut down dann?

Not/don't just trying to prove my point

[drael]

Why are u here?

[montag]

Not/don't just trying to prove my point
Have you ever considered that sites like this also serve the agenda?

[dann]

Why are u here?


To keep an eye on you lot, get it "eye" all seeing eye??!! haaaa haahahhahahahahhaha lol very loud

[drael]

Please be aware, that it is _obvious_ either psychology or an agenda brings u here. I will continue to ask ur motivation for being here, until u tell the truth. As such, any agenda, personal or otherwise that u serve, will be known. Flippant answer or half-truths aside - u are also being watched - by the all-seeing eye of god, and by all of us.

[dann]

Please be aware, that it is obvious either psychology or an agenda brings u here. I will continue to ask ur motivation for being here, until u tell the truth. As such, any agenda, personal or otherwise that u serve, will be known.

I am about to push the ignore button so I will be unable to see your posts, so you may post as much as you like.

[drael]

Do as u will. Everyone else will see my posts. And that, my dear left-hand brother, was clearly a sign of weakness and admission. If u think ur clever in the scope of what happens on this site, ur completely deluded.

[limelady]

How old are you dann?

[dann]

why?

[kweli]

why?

Erm... cos you're coming across as very immature maybe?

[tinmenace]

To keep an eye on you lot, get it "eye" all seeing eye??!! haaaa haahahhahahahahhaha lol very loud

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[limelady]

My guess would be about age 15.

Right?

[dann]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Thank you tin man ace?

Why the name

[tinmenace]

:D:D:D:p:p:p

[drakul]

The Illuminati LOVE THIS SITE. Just like they love ALL the sites that attack Christianity. Why?

Divide and Conquer.

Order Ab Chaos.

Look at Acharya's site - Truth Be Known - Only there for the sole purpose of destroying Christianity - `Christ never existed'. And what authors does she cite as references to prove that Christ never existed? FREEMASONS. Infamous Freemasons like 33 degree Supreme Commander Albert Pike.

If you look at the Masons all the way back to 1833 - Anacalypsis - by Royal Arch Mason Godfrey Higgins - they have been writing books trying to prove that Jesus never existed.

Ask yourself WHY?

Because the Masons being the Illuminati want to bring back the old gods. The gods of BLOOD/HUMAN SACRIFICE. As David has said many times.

[comawhite015]

*sits Dann upon his knee*

If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all, honey.

*pat pat*

Now have a lolly and go play with the other little plebs. Somewhere else.

[drakul]

*sits Dann upon his knee*

If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all, honey.

*pat pat*

Now have a lolly and go play with the other little plebs. Somewhere else.


says the creepy looking he/she creature

[comawhite015]

says the creepy looking he/she creature

I like non sequitirs too!

Aardvarks eat toast on pogo sticks.

:D

my avatar is gorgeous.

[thelonious]

Because the Masons being the Illuminati want to bring back the old gods. The gods of BLOOD/HUMAN SACRIFICE. As David has said many times.

Huh?

Both Judaism and Christianity are blood sacrifice religions.

The Old Testament goes into great detail concerning blood sacrifice. The entire priesthood order of Aaron is based around it. Human sacrifice was also practiced: Jepthah sacrificing his daughter in accordance with Mosaic custom in the book of Judges is only one example.

Christianity as a whole is fully based in blood sacrificed. Christians believe that Jesus was a sacrifice to God, and only through his blood being shed can they attain salvation.

Now, if you guys want to participate in blood cults, go right ahead, you have my best wishes. But don't try to drag *me* and other Masons into that sort of thing. Masonry says, in the lecture to the Master Masons degree, that the acceptable sacrifice to the Deity is a pure heart and good works. So I will continue to try to purify my heart and to do good works, and you guys can continue to teach that blood sacrifice is necessary for salvation, and we'll all be happy. :D

[tothestars]

Wht don't the Illuminati stop this web site?

are you sure they can?

Some thing are protected you know. All of the good forces arent sissies you know. (Sometimes it is only a blasing sword that helps at least here in 3D.)

Anyway their minds are very confused at the moment and their organisation is breaking apart.

They have more enuff to do with holding themselves on their seats. It is like a snowball in a oven and the oven is increasing the heat slowly every moment! Nothing outside can open that oven now.

Even the earthly Illuminati has broken in two and are now at war with each other.

Many of their darklords have left cause they cant manipulate and add dark energy to the mass-con as they did before. Free will has been dispelled when it comes to this and the use of nukes.

[drakul]

Huh?

Both Judaism and Christianity are blood sacrifice religions.

The Old Testament goes into great detail concerning blood sacrifice. The entire priesthood order of Aaron is based around it. Human sacrifice was also practiced: Jepthah sacrificing his daughter in accordance with Mosaic custom in the book of Judges is only one example.

Christianity as a whole is fully based in blood sacrificed. Christians believe that Jesus was a sacrifice to God, and only through his blood being shed can they attain salvation.

Now, if you guys want to participate in blood cults, go right ahead, you have my best wishes. But don't try to drag *me* and other Masons into that sort of thing. Masonry says, in the lecture to the Master Masons degree, that the acceptable sacrifice to the Deity is a pure heart and good works. So I will continue to try to purify my heart and to do good works, and you guys can continue to teach that blood sacrifice is necessary for salvation, and we'll all be happy. :D


Uhuh. Yet the Masons claim they are `IDENTICAL' to the ancient `MYSTERY RELIGIONS' which were all based on blood sacrifice. According to the founder of this website, David Icke - the Masons ARE the Illuminati who practiced and still do in secret - the mystery religions requiring blood sacrifice.

Jesus Christ was the last sacrifice. Blood sacrifice was BANNED when Emperor Constantine in 325 AD made Christianity the official religion of the empire. At that point your people had to go underground.

[thelonious]

Uhuh. Yet the Masons claim they are `IDENTICAL' to the ancient `MYSTERY RELIGIONS' which were all based on blood sacrifice.

I have to disagree with your assertion that the mystery religions were based on blood sacrifice. It is true that the profane cults practiced blood sacrifice, but I haven't seen any evidence at all that the initiated did.

Take Pythagoras, for example, who was one of the most important mystery initiates and priests in history. He and his followers were strict vegetarians because of the doctrine in the mysteries that all life is sacred.

Furthermore, I cannot find any accounts of any blood sacrifices having occured in the Eleusinian mysteries, Egyptian mysteries, or Orphic mysteries. A neutral exception could be made in the Persian mysteries of Mithras, but it could be argued that the sacrifice of cattle there was for food rather than a religious mystery.

[drakul]

I have to disagree with your assertion that the mystery religions were based on blood sacrifice. It is true that the profane cults practiced blood sacrifice, but I haven't seen any evidence at all that the initiated did.

Take Pythagoras, for example, who was one of the most important mystery initiates and priests in history. He and his followers were strict vegetarians because of the doctrine in the mysteries that all life is sacred.

Furthermore, I cannot find any accounts of any blood sacrifices having occured in the Eleusinian mysteries, Egyptian mysteries, or Orphic mysteries. A neutral exception could be made in the Persian mysteries of Mithras, but it could be argued that the sacrifice of cattle there was for food rather than a religious mystery.


I don't have time to research but I know for a fact the Egyptians sacrificed VAST numbers of animals for their mystery religion. Archeologists have found something like 1 million mumified ibis, cats, bulls, etc., which were clearly being offered as sacrifices. Mithraism as practiced by the Romans was extremely bloody as it culminated in the sacrifice of a bull.

[thelonious]

I don't have time to research but I know for a fact the Egyptians sacrificed VAST numbers of animals for their mystery religion. Archeologists have found something like 1 million mumified ibis, cats, bulls, etc., which were clearly being offered as sacrifices. Mithraism as practiced by the Romans was extremely bloody as it culminated in the sacrifice of a bull.

There are no records of any sacrifices being performed in the Egyptian mysteries. The non-initiates in Egypt sacrificed animals in their religious rites, but these were not the initiated mysteries.

I already mentioned the mysteries of Mithras. It was not "extremely bloody", but consisted of the slaughtering of a bull, whose meat was then cooked and eaten. These people killed animals for food, not because they thought they were gaining salvation from it.

[drael]

Id like to complete retract my contribution to this thread. This is clearly some kid, who happened to catch me in a paranoid mood. Oops...

As for the ptb wanting to return the old gods, why exactly would their share their spiritual techniques, magickal abilites etc with the muggles? Why dont they just give us all guns or nukes! As a student of magick, i find this idea very hard to grasp, i really cant understand why they would keep secrets for what must be around 260,000 years, with more effort put into that goal that almost any human project that has ever existed - and then suddenly change their minds.....

The ptb philosophy IMO is on personal godhood - in fact, and u can research this yourself, most left-hand path teachings deny ANY god or power outside the self (check out the temple of set website for example). How can one be all powerful if one is bowing down before something else?

And blood sacrfice...i think thats been over-empasized alot. It was not a universal practice in pre-christian culture. Early christians sacrficed animals, and many referanced to sacrifice can be found in the bible. In the old testament, i beleive god punishes someone for not doing it. One example i think may be relevant is early druids - they performed sacrifice in the begining of their culture, but later one they did not. This is the same as the path christians took - first doing sacrifice, then deciding its immoral. To say that christianity ended blood sacrifice is just unfounded (especially considering up until a few hundred years ago they were still burning witches - and killed more than jews in ww2 in horrific ways, in the service of god - is that not blood sacrifice?).

[drakul]

Id like to complete retract my contribution to this thread. This is clearly some kid, who happened to catch me in a paranoid mood. Oops...

As for the ptb wanting to return the old gods, why exactly would their share their spiritual techniques, magickal abilites etc with the muggles? Why dont they just give us all guns or nukes! As a student of magick, i find this idea very hard to grasp, i really cant understand why they would keep secrets for what must be around 260,000 years, with more effort put into that goal that almost any human project that has ever existed - and then suddenly change their minds.....

The ptb philosophy IMO is on personal godhood - in fact, and u can research this yourself, most left-hand path teachings deny ANY god or power outside the self (check out the temple of set website for example). How can one be all powerful if one is bowing down before something else?

And blood sacrfice...i think thats been over-empasized alot. It was not a universal practice in pre-christian culture. Early christians sacrficed animals, and many referanced to sacrifice can be found in the bible. In the old testament, i beleive god punishes someone for not doing it. One example i think may be relevant is early druids - they performed sacrifice in the begining of their culture, but later one they did not. This is the same as the path christians took - first doing sacrifice, then deciding its immoral. To say that christianity ended blood sacrifice is just unfounded (especially considering up until a few hundred years ago they were still burning witches - and killed more than jews in ww2 in horrific ways, in the service of god - is that not blood sacrifice?).\\\


You're so naive. You actually think that the Masonic/Illuminati push to bring back the old gods of blood sacrifice - LUCIFER, BAAL, MOLECH, etc is about SHARING the `Mysteries'??? It's about FEAR and POWER and complete MIND KONTROLL. Why else would you feel compelled to bring your first-born child to the temple to be put into the red hot iron arms of Molech? Even ANIMALS will die trying to protect their young.

Please supply a link from a PRIMARY SOURCE stating that early Christians performed blood sacrifice. Definitely the Jews did it for Jehovah - Jewish temples were literally slaughterhouses during Passover - which is the main reason Jesus went in to the temple with a WHIP. And that's why the Jews had Jesus killed THE NEXT DAY.

Blood sacrifice was and still is viewed by Christians as divination to connect with DEMONIC ENTITIES. And that's exactly what it is, as Icke points out in his books.

[Mo0n5tar]

From what i have seen the mysteries tend to consist of work on the immortality of the soul and contains death>rebirth ritual, this is symbolism/allegory etc.

Where human and blood sacrifice pops up is usually when the seeder of the mystery religion has been invaded>conquered a'la, Hyksos, Aztec, Canaanites and the new culture inherits the mysteries while lacking full understanding...

This is what we see with the KJV a coded work with the mysteries only open to interpretation by adepts, while the Christian populace will go to war to defend their christian values, believing on literal resurrection, drinking the blood of the host etc...

[drakul]

From what i have seen the mysteries tend to consist of work on the immortality of the soul and contains death>rebirth ritual, this is symbolism/allegory etc.

Where human and blood sacrifice pops up is usually when the seeder of the mystery religion has been invaded>conquered a'la, Hyksos, Aztec, Canaanites and the new culture inherits the mysteries while lacking full understanding...

This is what we see with the KJV a coded work with the mysteries only open to interpretation by adepts, while the Christian populace will go to war to defend their christian values, believing on literal resurrection, drinking the blood of the host etc...


So when was the last time you visited a church and saw people drinking blood?

[tothestars]

So when was the last time you visited a church and saw people drinking blood?


I doubt they do it in public....

[drakul]

I doubt they do it in public....

That's right, blood drinking, cannabalism (CANNA - priests of BAAL) is no longer socially acceptable behavior. Why? Because it was BANNED by the Christians in 325AD when Christianity became the official religion of the GRECO/Roman Empire.

[thelonious]

So when was the last time you visited a church and saw people drinking blood?

In the Christian Eucharist, the bread and wine are mystically transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ. Consider Jesus' words in the Gospel of John that one must "eat of my flesh and drink of my blood" in order to enter the kingdom of heaven.

[thelonious]

Please supply a link from a PRIMARY SOURCE stating that early Christians performed blood sacrifice. Definitely the Jews did it for Jehovah - Jewish temples were literally slaughterhouses during Passover - which is the main reason Jesus went in to the temple with a WHIP.


Jesus went in with a whip not because of blood sacrifice, which was in accordance with Mosaic Law, but to overturn the moneychangers' tables. Jesus told them "You have turned my father's house into a den of thieves", by charging people to worship.

It's also important to understand the differences in "animal sacrifice". Most cultures slaughtered their meat in a religious ceremony in order to give thanks to God or gods for the gift of food. This practice was not "evil"...I see much more evil in *our* system. At least the ancients respected the animal, and gave thanks to God. We, on the other hand, drive by Kentucky Fried Chicken and pick up a bucket without even a second thought concerning the animal we're eating, or the God who provides nourishment for us.

[paganus]

\\\


You're so naive. You actually think that the Masonic/Illuminati push to bring back the old gods of blood sacrifice - LUCIFER, BAAL, MOLECH, etc is about SHARING the `Mysteries'??? It's about FEAR and POWER and complete MIND KONTROLL. Why else would you feel compelled to bring your first-born child to the temple to be put into the red hot iron arms of Molech? Even ANIMALS will die trying to protect their young.

Please supply a link from a PRIMARY SOURCE stating that early Christians performed blood sacrifice. Definitely the Jews did it for Jehovah - Jewish temples were literally slaughterhouses during Passover - which is the main reason Jesus went in to the temple with a WHIP. And that's why the Jews had Jesus killed THE NEXT DAY.

Blood sacrifice was and still is viewed by Christians as divination to connect with DEMONIC ENTITIES. And that's exactly what it is, as Icke points out in his books.





Luke 2:24




<< Luke 2:24 >>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
and to offer a sacrifice according to what was said in the Law of the Lord, "A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES OR TWO YOUNG PIGEONS."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
They also offered a sacrifice as required by the Lord's Teachings: "a pair of mourning doves or two young pigeons."

King James Bible
And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

American Standard Version
and to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Bible in Basic English
And to make an offering, as it is ordered in the law of the Lord, of two doves or other young birds.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And to offer a sacrifice, according as it is written in the law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons:

Darby Bible Translation
and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord: A pair of turtle doves, or two young pigeons.

English Revised Version
and to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Tyndale New Testament
and to offer (as it is said in the law of the Lord) a pair of turtle doves, or ij. young pigeons.

Weymouth New Testament
And they also offered a sacrifice as commanded in the Law of the Lord, "a pair of turtle doves or two young pigeons."

Webster's Bible Translation
And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtle-doves, or two young pigeons.

World English Bible
and to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, "A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons."

Young's Literal Translation
and to give a sacrifice, according to that said in the Law of the Lord, 'A pair of turtle-doves, or two young pigeons.'


Leviticus 5:11 'But if his means are insufficient for two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then for his offering for that which he has sinned, he shall bring the tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall not put oil on it or place incense on it, for it is a sin offering.
Leviticus 12:8 'But if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, the one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.'" (NASB ©1995)

Treasury of Scripture Knowledge

And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

A pair. Le 12:2,6-8 2Co 8:9








Geneva Study Bible
And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

People's New Testament

2:24 To offer a sacrifice. The law required a lamb for a burnt offering and a pigeon or turtle-dove for a sin offering, but in the case of the poor one of these birds might be substituted for the lamb, and the priest shall made atonement for her and she shall be clean (Le 12:6-8). The fact that Joseph and Mary brought a pair of birds instead of a lamb shows that they were very poor. The gifts of the wise men were after this.

Wesley's Notes

2:24 A pair of turtle doves, or two young pigeons - This offering sufficed for the poor. Lev 12:8.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

2:21-24 Our Lord Jesus was not born in sin, and did not need that mortification of a corrupt nature, or that renewal unto holiness, which were signified by circumcision. This ordinance was, in his case, a pledge of his future perfect obedience to the whole law, in the midst of sufferings and temptations, even unto death for us. At the end of forty days, Mary went up to the temple to offer the appointed sacrifices for her purification. Joseph also presented the holy child Jesus, because, as a first-born son, he was to be presented to the Lord, and redeemed according to the law. Let us present our children to the Lord who gave them to us, beseeching him to redeem them from sin and death, and make them holy to himself.


Bible Gateway: Luke Chapter 2 Verse 24 NIV ESV NKJV NLT KJV Message Amplified
Alphabetical: a according and doves in is keeping Law Lord of offer or pair pigeons sacrifice said the to turtledoves two was what with young

New American Standard Bible Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation, La Habra, Calif. All rights reserved. For Permission to Quote Information visit http://www.lockman.org.

GOD'S WORD® is a copyrighted work of God's Word to the Nations. Quotations are used by permission. Copyright 1995 by God's Word to the Nations. All rights reserved.

NT Gospels: Luke 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according (top)

Luke 2:24 Bible Software

Luke 2:24 Multilingual Bible

Luke 2 Parallel Chapters

Online Parallel Bible

[kblood]

The Illuminati loves the truth as much as anyone. I think they even live by the "survival of the fittest", anyone capable of becomming enlightenened enough, qualifies for challenging them I guess. So in this sense, if Icke is right, he could be illuminati without knowing it? :eek:

Just a thought. I dont believe they are just a bunch of secret people working together. There might be more to it/them than even David realised so far.

Its not that I know what they are, but I do have a theory that I remembered and will try to post in my math thread. I just need some more information to base it on I think.

[drakul]

Luke 2:24

<< Luke 2:24 >>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
and to offer a sacrifice according to what was said in the Law of the Lord, "A PAIR OF TURTLEDOVES OR TWO YOUNG PIGEONS."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
They also offered a sacrifice as required by the Lord's Teachings: "a pair of mourning doves or two young pigeons."

King James Bible
And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

American Standard Version
and to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Bible in Basic English
And to make an offering, as it is ordered in the law of the Lord, of two doves or other young birds.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And to offer a sacrifice, according as it is written in the law of the Lord, a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons:

Darby Bible Translation
and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord: A pair of turtle doves, or two young pigeons.

English Revised Version
and to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Tyndale New Testament
and to offer (as it is said in the law of the Lord) a pair of turtle doves, or ij. young pigeons.

Weymouth New Testament
And they also offered a sacrifice as commanded in the Law of the Lord, "a pair of turtle doves or two young pigeons."

Webster's Bible Translation
And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtle-doves, or two young pigeons.

World English Bible
and to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, "A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons."

Young's Literal Translation
and to give a sacrifice, according to that said in the Law of the Lord, 'A pair of turtle-doves, or two young pigeons.'


Leviticus 5:11 'But if his means are insufficient for two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then for his offering for that which he has sinned, he shall bring the tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall not put oil on it or place incense on it, for it is a sin offering.
Leviticus 12:8 'But if she cannot afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two young pigeons, the one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for her, and she will be clean.'" (NASB ©1995)

Treasury of Scripture Knowledge

And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

A pair. Le 12:2,6-8 2Co 8:9

Geneva Study Bible
And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

People's New Testament

2:24 To offer a sacrifice. The law required a lamb for a burnt offering and a pigeon or turtle-dove for a sin offering, but in the case of the poor one of these birds might be substituted for the lamb, and the priest shall made atonement for her and she shall be clean (Le 12:6-8). The fact that Joseph and Mary brought a pair of birds instead of a lamb shows that they were very poor. The gifts of the wise men were after this.

Wesley's Notes

2:24 A pair of turtle doves, or two young pigeons - This offering sufficed for the poor. Lev 12:8.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

2:21-24 Our Lord Jesus was not born in sin, and did not need that mortification of a corrupt nature, or that renewal unto holiness, which were signified by circumcision. This ordinance was, in his case, a pledge of his future perfect obedience to the whole law, in the midst of sufferings and temptations, even unto death for us. At the end of forty days, Mary went up to the temple to offer the appointed sacrifices for her purification. Joseph also presented the holy child Jesus, because, as a first-born son, he was to be presented to the Lord, and redeemed according to the law. Let us present our children to the Lord who gave them to us, beseeching him to redeem them from sin and death, and make them holy to himself.


Bible Gateway: Luke Chapter 2 Verse 24 NIV ESV NKJV NLT KJV Message Amplified
Alphabetical: a according and doves in is keeping Law Lord of offer or pair pigeons sacrifice said the to turtledoves two was what with young

New American Standard Bible Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation, La Habra, Calif. All rights reserved. For Permission to Quote Information visit http://www.lockman.org.

GOD'S WORD® is a copyrighted work of God's Word to the Nations. Quotations are used by permission. Copyright 1995 by God's Word to the Nations. All rights reserved.

NT Gospels: Luke 2:24 AChnd to offer a sacrifice according (top)

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So what you're trying to tell us is that because JOSEPH AND MARY did as was required of them - followed the LAW of the JEWISH faith to offer 2 doves at the temple when Jesus was a baby - BEFORE there was Christianity - you are attempting to twist that into - `early Christians offered blood sacrifices'.

THERE WAS NO CHRISTIANITY AT THE TIME JESUS WAS A NEWBORN BABE.

DON'T BE A SLEAZY LIAR.

As for your quote from Leviticus - again that has nothing to do with Christianity - Leviticus is from the OLD TESTAMENT. I have already said Jewish temples were virtual slaughter houses.

[paganus]

So what you're trying to tell us is that because JOSEPH AND MARY did as was required of them - followed the LAW of the JEWISH faith to offer 2 doves at the temple when Jesus was a baby - BEFORE there was Christianity - you are attempting to twist that into - `early Christians offered blood sacrifices'.

THERE WAS NO CHRISTIANITY AT THE TIME JESUS WAS A NEWBORN BABE.

DON'T BE A SLEAZY LIAR.

As for your quote from Leviticus - again that has nothing to do with Christianity - Leviticus is from the OLD TESTAMENT. I have already said Jewish temples were virtual slaughter houses.
read the relevant gospel again.JESUS ORDERED HIS DISCIPLES TO OBTAIN A SACRIFICE FOR PASSOVER!

[paganus]

oh dear oh dear! yet more offerings from christians!! Acts 21 v 26-29
The next day Paul took the four men and shared in the cleansing ceremony with them. Then he went to the Temple and announced the time when the days of the cleansing ceremony would be finished. On the last day an offering would be given for each of the men.
When the seven days were almost over, some Jews from Asia saw Paul at the Temple. They caused all the people to be upset and grabbed Paul. They shouted, “People of Israel, help us! This is the man who goes everywhere teaching against the law of Moses, against our people and against this Temple. Now he has brought some Greeks into the Temple and has made this holy place unclean!” (The Jews said this because they had seen Trophimus, a man from Ephesus, with Paul in Jerusalem. The Jews thought that Paul had brought him into the Temple.)

[paganus]

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ARTICLES

ANIMAL SACRIFICE IN CHRISTIAN CHURCHES

It really didn't seem possible. Although the information sent to HUMANE RELIGION regarding animal sacrifice claimed to be factual, it didn't give a source for the article it quoted. The story was well-written and names of the priests and bishops involved proved to be accurate. Still, the events being reported were so bizarre that the possibility of a hoax had to be considered. And there was the lingering hope that the article was a hoax--that animals were not really being sacrificed in South Africa's Christian churches.

But it turned out to be a legitimate story. And not only was it true, the London DAILY TELEGRAPH which reported these events, as well as spokesmen for the Roman Catholic church in which the killings are taking place, do not see these events as a story about the introduction of animal sacrifice into Christianity. Both secular and religious observers view it simply as another instance of racial strife. For them, the story is newsworthy only because the claim of racism has been made by a group of native, black priests, who support sacrificial worship.

A coalition of these priests claims that the hesitancy of Catholic leaders to give their blessing to animal sacrifices is simply another instance of the white colonial mentality that refuses to give proper respect to native practices. These priests are supported in their demand for sacrifices by Archbishop Buti Tlhagale of Bloemfontein who asserts that "Animal sacrifice has a special place in the scheme of things and is celebrated in almost all African families. We have kept it out of God's Church for too long."

But faced with recalcitrant parish priests like Father Kevin Reynolds, who argues that animal sacrifice is "foreign to traditional Catholic theology regarding the Mass," the archbishop has offered a compromise. Although Catholic theology does say that since the sacrificial death of Jesus 2,000 years ago, there is no longer any need to offer animal sacrifices to God, the killing can still be carried out. But instead of offering the blood of the victims to God, it can be offered in honor of the African ancestors of participating Catholics. (Ancestor worship is seen by the archbishop, and others, as the native equivalent of the Catholic practice of honoring its canonized saints.) Archbishop Buti proposes that the blood of the slain animal--be it goat, chicken, sheep or cow--can be presented during the Mass as "a gift to the ancestors, not to God."

And what does the "Euro-centric" hierarchy in South Africa think about the sacrifice of animals in Catholic churches? Well, Archbishop George Daniel, head of the Pretoria archdiocese for the past 25 years, doesn't seem to be overly concerned about it. He allows that it could become a problem at some future date--if the tenor of the debate escalates--but says "we will have to cross that bridge when we come to it."

For him, killing animals in the churches is not sacrilegious, it is just another facet of the "incultration process." This process takes place when the Roman Church and Catholics in a given country try to find a suitable accommodation between church requirements and traditional practices of the native culture. The incorporation of African music is presented as another example of incultration. There were dissenters who fought against having native instruments and hymns as the background to their church services, but eventually people on both sides of the debate were accommodated.

But why does Archbishop Daniel treat the slaughter of animals in the churches as just another problem of incultration? Why does he allow both priests and media to make this an issue of racial strife instead of declaring it a moral issue that has to do with the introduction of blasphemous worship into the churches? Probably because he has no foundation on which to take such a stand: traditional Christianity has never rejected the animal sacrifice that is part of its biblical heritage.

Although prophets like Isaiah, Amos, Hosea, and Jeremiah denounced animal sacrifices as abominations, those condemnations did not have an affect on either orthodox Jewish or traditional Christian attitudes. Judaism continued sacrifices until the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple in 70 A.D. and Christianity validated sacrificial religion in retrospect, saying that because Jesus was the ultimate sacrificial victim, killing animals on the altars of God was no longer "necessary."

Faced with an act that is considered theologically unnecessary rather than blasphemous, Archbishop Daniel would be hard-pressed to make animal sacrifice a moral issue even if he were inclined to do so. But the only problem he seems to have with this travesty of Christian worship is the discord that might erupt in his diocese IF he decided to put a stop to sacrificial religious rites. He wonders "what would happen to those priests who decide to continue with the practice of animal sacrifice "

Copyright 2000 Humane Religion & J.R. Hyland

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[ichi wa zen]

Drakul is right. TPB want the old blood sacrificing mystery religions back. Stop being naive people! Baal, Moloch, Bla Bla Bla, blood, death, necromancy, magic, humansacrifice was all over the place in those days and still being practiced to this day be it on a lesser scale.

[paganus]

Drakul is right. TPB want the old blood sacrificing mystery religions back. Stop being naive people! Baal, Moloch, Bla Bla Bla, blood, death, necromancy, magic, humansacrifice was all over the place in those days and still being practiced to this day be it on a lesser scale.not by any Pagan i know...