Freemasonry Q&A [Archive] - David Icke's Official Forums

thelonious

07-02-2008, 10:38 PM

is there any Freemason contact with a group called the illuminati? do you have experience of them?

I think first we'd have to define the term "Illuminati", which is often used but little researched. For example, there was a TV show about Masonry on recently, where David Icke was interviewed. David said that he calles the wealthy, ruling elite "illuminati", but concedes they probably don't call themselves by that term.

That clarification helps, but not a lot of people are aware of it. So when David talks about the "Illuminati", he's not really talking about any specific organization that has used that name, but rather is making a generalization concerning the wealthy elite. Personally, I would not call the ruling elite "illuminati" because that word means "enlightened", and I don't consider many of them to be bastions of enlightenmnet.

There have been, however, several real organizations who called themselves "Illuminati" that have had at least loose ties to Freemasonry. The most famous is the Illuminati of Bavaria, founded in 1776 by Adam Weishaupt and his supporters. Weishaupt was a law professor at the Jesuit University of Ingolstadt, but was fired because of his liberal political and religious ideas (he was a democrat and a Deist).

In 1776, the American Revolution began, and inspired Weishaupt and his associates to attempt a similar revolution in Bavaria, with the aim of separating church and state, granting equal rights to women, and instituting a democratic republic that would by-pass the Jesuit Electorate.

Weishaupt and other Illuminati members joined the local Masonic Lodges with the hope of adding recruits. While many of the local Masons sympathized with the Illuminati's complaints, most were not ready to back armed revolution, unlike the situation in the USA, where the local Lodges wre hotbeds of revolutionary activity.

Soon afterward, the Illuminati were infiltrated by the secret police, the order was dissolved, and the members were either arrested or driven into exile.

Famous Illuminati members who were also Masons include Weishaupt, Adolph von Knigge, the poet Johannes von Goethe, the mystic Comte de St. Germaine, and the composer Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.

There was also another, separate organization called the Illuminati of Stockholm, which was at one time attached to the Swedish Rite of Masonry. Unlike the Bavarian Illuminati, they were not political, but were instead interested in Christian mysticism, such as Martinism and Hermeticism.

cruise4

08-02-2008, 12:58 AM

adimon

08-02-2008, 01:31 AM

How can I join? :p

thetonic

08-02-2008, 06:04 AM

What do you think of David Ickes work and how he portrays freemasonry in his books?... And what brought you to the forum?

strider

08-02-2008, 11:48 AM

Lydia78 has done a great thread on masonic practices and beliefs.. Even the so called mason we have here could learn a hell of a lot about what they are involved with..

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14414

thelonious

08-02-2008, 03:35 PM

The psychologically lacking would find joining Secret Societies attractive. Do members understand this?

Members would, of course, disagree with your analysis, and contend that you misunderstand. Masons do not generally consider Freemasonry a "secret society", per se. It is a fraternal organization, and like all fraternities and sororities, has its own private traditions.

As for being "psychologically lacking"...lacking in what? Psychology? A brother in my Lodge is a psychology professor at the local university, and has a Ph.D in the subject. Would you consider yourself more educated in the subject than he?

How could any 'secret' society be anything other than negative?

Why would a secret society, be it Masonry or anything else, be automatically negative?

How can any human being find it anything other than childish behaviour?

I've never witnessed any childish behaviour in Masonry, so I'm not sure what you mean?

To me, freemasons are amongst the silliest people alive.

What is the attraction unless you are of a mafia/gangster type bent?

Why would a "mafia/gangster type" be attracted to Freemasonry?

How are freemasons not embarassed. This is a serious question. I just do not get it.

Embarassed by what? I don't think I get it either.

thelonious

08-02-2008, 03:38 PM

How can I join? :p

The qualifications for membership is that one must be a male (it's a fraternity, so men-only), of legal adult age who is of good moral character, and believes in the existence of a Supreme Being.

Anyone meeting those qualifications may request admission by asking a friend who is a Mason to sponsor them. If one doesn't know any Masons, he may email his local Lodge, or Grand Lodge, explain his interest, and they will have the membership committee from a local Lodge contact him.

thelonious

08-02-2008, 03:42 PM

What do you think of David Ickes work and how he portrays freemasonry in his books?... And what brought you to the forum?

I found the forum by luck while surfing. As for David's books, I haven't read any of them, but I've seen him on a couple of TV shows about Freemasonry and secret societies.

I agree with some of things he says, and disagree with others. For example, in one TV show, David says the Scottish Rite was founded in Scotland by Knights Templar. However, the Scottish Rite was really founded in Charleston, SC, USA in 1801 by 11 York Rite Masons who merged two different Masonic Rites: the French Rite of Perfection, consisting of 25 degrees, and the French Philosophical Rite (consisting of 8 degrees) to form a new Rite of 33 degrees. They called it the "Scottish Rite" because the highest degree in the Philosophical Rite was called "Scottish Knight of St. Andrew", which is now the 29° of the Scottish Rite.

paganus

08-02-2008, 03:46 PM

How do Freemasons generally handle the conspiracys about them? is there any danger in being a Mason because of them?

thelonious

08-02-2008, 03:57 PM

How do Freemasons generally handle the conspiracys about them? is there any danger in being a Mason because of them?

It probably depends on where you live. I've spoken with anti-Masonic conspiracy theorists before, but only online. I've never actually met one in real life. Although, several years ago after a Lodge meeting, we all came down into the parking lot to discovery that someone had left a Jack Chick tract called "The Curse of Baphomet" under all of our windshield wipers. :D

In the USA, the general public tends to support Freemasonry, especially Masonic charities such as Shriners Childrens Hospitals and the Knights Templar Eye Foundation. Most Americans know that a large section of our forefathers were Masons, and that the Constitution of the United States was based on the Masonic Constitutions published by Benjamin Franklin, who had served as Masonic Grand Master (highest ranking official) in Pennsylvania.

Outside of the USA, it depends. The public in the UK are more skeptical, and have more misunderstandings. In some countries fairly recently (under the Nazis, Fascists, and Communists), Freemasons were openly persecuted. The Cuban government only recently legalized the practice of Freemasonry, but the government does not allow Communist Party members to join, and the Lodges are all under surveillance.

As for how do we handle the conspiracies about us, the funny thing is that most Masons don't even know they exist. Probably about 90% of our members would be completely flabbergasted to know that their fraternity is considered controversial by some people. As for those of us who studied conspiracy theories and conspiracy psychology, we try to answer the honest questions, and ignore the ad hominems.

psychicdefender

08-02-2008, 03:59 PM

If I were to have high level freemasonry in my family (although I have never met said family member), would this have anything to do with two separate and apparently unrelated masons giving me a recruitment 'chat' within the space of one year?

Before these 'chats' - Why does it seem that when I have worked (and worked hard) for a business run by a mason did I get nowhere with earning the money I deserved? Could this be a trick to get me, in desparation, to ask to join a lodge?

Why the need for belief in a 'Supreme Being'?

Why the occult initiation ceremony?

Why have two 'fallen' cherubs on the masonic coat of arms?

Why when trying to create a 'better' 'more civilised' society do masons embrace the black/white rough/smooth evil/good symbolism of duality in their lodges, surely as one increases the other must also?

Just a few to start....

chicken

08-02-2008, 03:59 PM

it has been proven that freemasons are part of the NHS, and a lot of other services in the UK. They are in the police force as well - there are 11 police only lodges in the UK. Is this not a contradiction in terms in both professions outlined. I found these two articles about freemasonry and the NHS. The same is said of the police

MP protests over `NHS freemasons' spacey
Independent, The (London), *Mar 16, 1995 *by CHRIS BLACKHURST Westminster Correspondent

BY CHRIS BLACKHURST

Westminster Correspondent

Freemasons are being appointed to senior posts in the National Health Service, it was claimed yesterday.

According to a motion tabled in the Commons, David Crosby, the new chairman of the Cardiff Community Healthcare Trust, is "a prominent Tory and Freemason".

Rhodri Morgan, MP for Cardiff West, who tabled the motion, has written to the Nolan standards in public life inquiry - already looking into political bias in quangos - asking that it extend its investigation to cover masons.

"The amount of masonic influence in the NHS is positively creepy," Mr Morgan said.

He had asked Lord Nolan, to "investigate tie-ups between the Tory Party and masons in NHS appointments".

Mr Morgan claimed that masons were able to secure better jobs than counterparts who were not members of the secret society.

The MP has referred two cases to Nolan: Derek Morgan, president of Bridgend Constituency Conservative Association, who has just been appointed head of the University Hospital of Wales-Cardiff Royal Infirmary Trust; and Mr Crosby.

"They are examples yet again of the same old names and the same old games," the MP said. He claimed that six of the seven NHS trusts in the Cardiff area were now chaired by Tories.

Mr Crosby said his alleged masonic membership was "nobody else's business". Asked by the Independent if he was a mason, he replied, "Are you a Jew?"

On his claimed support for the Tories, Mr Crosby again said it was private.

"I regard myself as very privileged to carry on working for the NHS. How I vote is another matter."

There was no difference between himself and other NHS employees, Mr Crosby said, yet their political allegiances were never questioned.

That was not the point, Mr Morgan said. As chairman of a trust, Mr Crosby was a representative of the Government.

Copyright 1995 Newspaper Publishing PLC
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved.

Scandal link to masons in NHS
Independent, The (London), *Feb 27, 2000 *by COLIN BROWN

LEADERS of Britain's ruling medical body, the General Medical Council, will be questioned by MPs about possible links between Freemasons in the medical profession and a series of medical scandals.

There are concerns within Whitehall that the GMC may have been slow to act against doctors because of a Freemason network within the NHS.

The GMC, which came under fire for its failure to clamp down on failing doctors after the Bristol baby deaths and the Shipman serial killings, will be asked to disclose details of its own voluntary register, when its leaders go before the Commons select committee on health this week.

Rumours about Freemasonry in the medical profession have been circulating in Whitehall since the Bristol baby deaths scandal, and ministers are anxious to ensure there has been no cover-up.

There are an estimated 8,000 masonic lodges in England and Wales. A number of leading hospitals, including the Royal London, have lodges, but exact figures are elusive and few doctors openly admit to being masons.

MPs were astonished to discover that the GMC had a voluntary register for "conflicts of interest" which has not been made public. Howard Stoate, the Labour MP and GP, said he would be challenging the GMC to disclose the register: "It should be made public. It's entirely a matter for doctors to decide what to declare on the register. It's secretive; that's outrageous." Alan Milburn, the Health Secretary, has privately made plain he wants the GMC to carry out a shake-up of its disciplinary procedures to regain the public confidence that was shattered by the disclosures in the Shipman case.

He was furious that Shipman was allowed to continue as a GP throughout the trial and was only struck off by the GMC after the guilty verdict of the jury. Mr Milburn has told the GMC it has the power to suspend GPs when they are under police investigation, but the GMC is prevaricating.

"Ministers are losing patience with the GMC," said a Whitehall source. The health committee, chaired by Labour MP David Hinchliffe, has called GMC leaders to give evidence at an emergency hearing on its plans for reform.

The GMC announced it would be carrying out its own review, leading to possible reforms in the wake of the Shipman case. Ministers demanded that as a minimum they wanted a majority of laymen on the Council, but its president, Sir Donald Irvine, a retired family doctor, said he was against such a move.

David Mellor, the former Tory health minister, called for the whole GMC to be sacked. The Council has 54 seats for doctors who are elected for a five-year term by doctors. There are 25 lay members appointed by the Department of Health, and 25 by the universities and royal colleges.

The British Medical Association said ministers should fully consult the medical profession before moving towards political overseeing of the GMC.

In its statement, the GMC accepted the need for reform. "We know that to maintain public trust and guarantee that the GMC is doing the best job possible of protecting patients, changes need to be made to the way in which we operate. We have already identified some of those changes and are working urgently to put them in place."

Copyright 2000 Newspaper Publishing PLC
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved.

I understand that theosophy is freemasonry or should I say the other way around - the BMA bought the Theosophical Society building from them in 1912 - I searched to see the connections with theosophy and the medical as well as freemasonry - very much linked from what I can see - first female doctor in UK was a member of the TS and she ran the London head office for a bit...

ANCIENT SYMBOLS IN MODERN MEDICINE: BUT WHY?

Does the ancient symbolism employed by the institutions that control
modern medicine reflect the influence of secret societies such as the
Freemasons? In order to fully understand the esoteric significance of
modern medical symbolism, such as the cross, or Ankh, or the serpents
and staff of Moses, or the winged staff of Hermes, it is helpful to
begin by understanding that all doctors swear to pagan gods.

* *The Hippocratic Oath, which is sworn by all doctors, begins with
the invocation: "I swear by Apollo the Physician. By Aesculapius,
Hygela and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods and
goddesses..."[1] Dr Robert Orr showed in 1993 that 100% of American
medical schools administer some form of the Hippocratic Oath to
graduates.[2]

* *Dr James Appleyard, Chairman of the World Medical Association's
medical ethics committee, supports the modern use of the ancient
Hippocratic oath as "the continuation of a statement of fundamental
ethical principles that could be affirmed at graduation by doctors
worldwide".[3]

* *The World Medical Association's logo[4] features a serpent wrapped
around a staff, the symbol of the ancient Greek god Asklepios.
Aesculapius, worshipped by the Greeks as the god of healing, who
originated in ancient Egypt as Imhotep, high-priest, sage and minister
to the pharaoh, Zoser. It is significant that this symbol is
reminiscent of the Staff of Moses.[5] The World Health Organisation's
logo[6] also contains the ancient religious symbol of the serpent and
staff, which is superimposed over the United Nations emblem.

* *In fact, the medical establishment is steeped in ancient religious
symbolism. The British Columbia Medical Association coat of arms[7]
includes the Rod of Aesculapius, a golden griffin where the substance
represents alchemy, a medieval knight's helmet, and an ancient
Egyptian Ankh (Crux Ansata or Handled Cross). The Insider approves of
their official motto: "Always seek the truth." Paramedics also use the
symbol of staff and serpent in the internationally recognised
paramedic symbol[8], also called The Star of Life[9]. The resemblence
between this sign and the early Christian symbol of the Pax Christi
(Chi-Rho)[10], a cross-like monogram for Christ in ancient Greek, may
be significant.

* *The Wellcome Trust, a major medical charity, employs the winged
staff and snakes of Hermes[11] as their official logo, and for no
apparent reason there is a huge image of the ancient Egyptian
religious symbols of the Udjat eye of Horus and the Winged Disc of Ra,
etched into the glass above their entrance opposite Euston train
station in the West End of London. The winged sun disc is an ancient
symbol for the sun god, Ra. Well known examples of the winged solar
disc symbol can be found in ancient Egyptian temples, for instance
over the entrance to the Solar Temple of Amen-Ra at Karnak, or or over
the Temple doorway in Medinet Habu on the West bank of Luxor.

* *The Royal Society of Medicine coat of arms[12] features the serpent
of Moses on a Tau cross, and flowers which resemble the stylised Lotus
frequently depicted in ancient Egyptian art. In this discussion about
secret societies and the modern of ancient symbols it is pertinent
that The Royal Society - the foremost scientific institution in the
U.K., was founded by a prominent Freemason, Sir Robert Moray.[13]

* *John Robinson explains in his popular book on Freemasonry: "When
Freemasonry came public in 1717 ... it appeared that the Royal Society
was virtually a Masonic subsidiary, with almost every member and every
founding member of the Royal Society a Freemason."[14] An article in
the leading Masonic magazine, Freemasonry Today, echoes this and
mentions that "many masons were also members of the Royal Society".
[15] The Royal Society remains associated with British Freemasonry
today.

* *The Red Cross was first associated with human welfare and medical
help during the medieval crusades, when European Knights travelled
overseas to help pilgrims and foreigners alike, such as the Knights of
St John[16], the Knights Hospitaller, and the Knights Templar[17]
which was the first organisation to officially adopt the red cross
symbol.

* *The Knights Templar[18] has been operating in secret for centuries,
and traditions and inner mysteries are connected with those of the
secret society of Freemasonry[19].

thelonious

08-02-2008, 04:19 PM

If I were to have high level freemasonry in my family (although I have never met said family member), would this have anything to do with two separate and apparently unrelated masons giving me a recruitment 'chat' within the space of one year?

Possibly, but not necessarily. Regardless if you have family members that are Masons, if you have friends that are Masons, they'd probably like to see you join the fraternity.

Before these 'chats' - Why does it seem that when I have worked (and worked hard) for a business run by a mason did I get nowhere with earning the money I deserved? Could this be a trick to get me, in desparation, to ask to join a lodge?

No, that would strongly go against the principles of Masonry. Masonic law states that new candidates must come by their own free will and accord, without improper prompting, and have as their reason for joining a desire of knowledge and to be serviceable to their fellow man.

If a Mason tried to trick you into joining, it wouldn't help you or him. You would not be receptive to Freemasonry because you'd feel that you'd been conned, and the member who tricked you would have violated his obligations and be subject to expulsion.

Why the need for belief in a 'Supreme Being'?

Masonry is a theistic institution, largely concerned with spiritual growth and knowledge.

Why the occult initiation ceremony?

The original mediaval intiation into the stonecraft guild was pretty simple: the candidate took an oath to perform his duties, was presented with the working tools, and apprenticed to some Master Mason. When the fraternity began to evolve into a philosophical society, the ritual was expanded upon by neo-Platonists, Kabalists, Rosicrucians, Hermeticists, and various mystics and occult philosophers, probably as a method of preserving their teachings during a time of persecution by the Church. This is probably also the reason the fraternity went underground at that point as a secret society.

Why have two 'fallen' cherubs on the masonic coat of arms?

I'm not sure what you mean by "fallen" cherubs. The Coat of Arms of the United Grand Lodge of England displays the Cherubs on the Ark of the Covenant.

Why when trying to create a 'better' 'more civilised' society do masons embrace the black/white rough/smooth evil/good symbolism of duality in their lodges, surely as one increases the other must also?

This symbolism was probably introduced by the aforementioned Neo-Platonists. Both Plato and Plotinus elaborated on the dualistic nature of man and his environment, and it became a religious mystery among the ancient Magi, in the form of an antagonistic relationship between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman.

However, it is not necessarily true that they increase proportionately. The Magian doctrine stated that good will eventually overcome evil. In Masonry, this is represented by the initiate, whose spiritual nature is to overcome his animal passions.

mondo23

08-02-2008, 04:27 PM

Do you have to be rich to be a freemason? I work in a masonic hall as a waiter and the majority appear to be very well off indeed.

P.S. - Ive seen and heard nothing sinister whatsoever whilst I have been working at the masonic hall. In fact they all seem like pretty decent guys, although they never, ever tip.
Maybe that's why they're rich huh?

thelonious

08-02-2008, 04:39 PM

Do you have to be rich to be a freemason? I work in a masonic hall as a waiter and the majority appear to be very well off indeed.

The vast, vast majority of Masons are middle class. While there are a few wealthy Masons, most of them are just card-carriers, and don't even participate in Masonry.

Masonic Lodges do not employ waiters or any other staff. The Junior Warden and Stewards, who are officers of the Lodge, serve the brothers at feast. Did you mean that you helped cater an event, or something else? I'm not insinuating that you aren't telling the truth, I just want to be sure I understand you what you mean.

thors

08-02-2008, 05:26 PM

The psychologically lacking would find joining Secret Societies attractive. Do members understand this? How could any 'secret' society be anything other than negative? How can any human being find it anything other than childish behaviour? To me, freemasons are amongst the silliest people alive. What is the attraction unless you are of a mafia/gangster type bent? Should you not all just grow up?

Gold Stars at school, Badges on scout uniforms, Dressing up, gangs... how is it any different? How are freemasons not embarassed. This is a serious question. I just do not get it.

Hi, I don't if I'm right to comment on that but I think everything in our world i quiet subject to the law of relativity... What one might embrace a second one might reject. For the sake of the objectivity of the thread, and for it to remain informative I think we should refrain ourselves from those sortes of comment. Not that i am saying that you are wrong or right, just that the man i answering question in good faith and well if he lie uniformsand secret societies, perhaps we should accept that even if your opinion i on that particular matter different.

thors

08-02-2008, 05:28 PM

my appologies for my typping mistake my keyboard is a bit old...:)

thetonic

08-02-2008, 06:14 PM

Are there any "real" Masonic books that gives more insight of the history and possibly sacred knowledge of this order that you can recommend?..

serpentoffire

08-02-2008, 06:33 PM

I read a lot of lies until now. He describes only the surface of freemasonry, only the visible organization.

In Italy freemasonry is the junction point of all dirty businesses with Vatican, Camorra (or Mafia), secret services (MI6, SIV, Sisde, CIA, Mossad) and politic.

How can we believe in him? Only propaganda on this forum.

thelonious

08-02-2008, 06:57 PM

Are there any "real" Masonic books that gives more insight of the history and possibly sacred knowledge of this order that you can recommend?..

As for history I would recommend the following:

"History of Freemasonry" - Robert Gould
"Lexicon of Freemasonry" - Albert G. Mackey
"The Builders" - Joseph Fort Newton
"The Mens House" - Joseph Fort Newton
"A Comprehensive View of Freemasonry" - Henry Wilson Coil

As for sacred knowledge and Freemasonry, I recommend:

"Morals and Dogma' - Albert Pike
"Legenda of the Scottish Rite" - Albert Pike
"Liturgy of the Scottish Rite" - Albert Pike
"A Bridge To Light" - Rex Hutchens
"Symbolism of Freemasonry" - Albert G. Mackey
"Clausen's Commentaries On Morals and Dogma" - Henry C. Clausen
"The Emergence of the Mystical" - Henry C. Clausen
"Lost Keys of Freemasonry" - Manly Palmer Hall
"Mystic Masonry" - J.D. Buck

thetonic

08-02-2008, 07:13 PM

As for history I would recommend the following:

"History of Freemasonry" - Robert Gould
"Lexicon of Freemasonry" - Albert G. Mackey
"The Builders" - Joseph Fort Newton
"The Mens House" - Joseph Fort Newton
"A Comprehensive View of Freemasonry" - Henry Wilson Coil

As for sacred knowledge and Freemasonry, I recommend:

"Morals and Dogma' - Albert Pike
"Legenda of the Scottish Rite" - Albert Pike
"Liturgy of the Scottish Rite" - Albert Pike
"A Bridge To Light" - Rex Hutchens
"Symbolism of Freemasonry" - Albert G. Mackey
"Clausen's Commentaries On Morals and Dogma" - Henry C. Clausen
"The Emergence of the Mystical" - Henry C. Clausen
"Lost Keys of Freemasonry" - Manly Palmer Hall
"Mystic Masonry" - J.D. Buck

Question : In morals and dogma Pike states that the god of freemasonry is lucifer in so many words... And then later on a bunch of freemasons try to say "oh he was just joking or that was a typo or that was never in the book" but in reality im pretty sure it is, and fairly certain that pike did beleive "Lucifer" is god...

What is your take on this?

Why are freemasons that do think Lucifer is god , not just come out and say it , instead acting like a bunch of pussies about it?

The excuse for secrecy as a means to go underground during oppressive times does not hold water with me today.. I mean pretty much being a satanist is a fad now, and all this occult shit is in our face everyday : the symbolism , control , bla bla blah.. So why is it still a secret in todays ridiculously camp materialistic, brainwashed, manipulated world? Is there really that much to hide anymore?.. Or is it because freemasonry is one of the roots of this ridiculous manipulation?

thelonious

08-02-2008, 07:25 PM

Question : In morals and dogma Pike states that the god of freemasonry is lucifer in so many words... And then later on a bunch of freemasons try to say "oh he was just joking or that was a typo or that was never in the book" but in reality im pretty sure it is, and fairly certain that pike did beleive "Lucifer" is god...

Pike understood "Lucifer" in its original sense, as a Roman title for the Greek god Apollo. Apollo, as the sun, is the "light bringer", "Lucifer" being Latin for "light bringer".

In M&D, Pike doesn't say he believes that Lucifer is God; what he actually does is quote another writer (the French author Eliphas Levi). Levi wrote that since "Lucifer" means "light bringer", it was a "strange and mysterious name" for the Church to give to their "prince of darkness", and Pike quoted this passage in the book.

As to what Pike believed about Lucifer, it depends on how you define "Lucifer". Pike did not believe in the traditional Christian devil, but instead considered Satan to be the symbol of atheism and materialism (Morals and Dogma, p. 102). As a Kabalist and occultist, Pike also accepted the traditionally technical occult interpretation of Satan, i.e., that Satan is symbolic of the animal instincts in man and their occult root, the kundalini force (M&D, p. 102). This is why the Christian devil is sometimes portrayed as the Greek god Pan, with hooves, tail, horns, etc., i.e., because they represent the same idea.

thelonious

08-02-2008, 07:34 PM

Why are freemasons that do think Lucifer is god , not just come out and say it , instead acting like a bunch of pussies about it?

Please see my above post concerning Lucifer, and the technical meaning of that to occult philosophers.

The excuse for secrecy as a means to go underground during oppressive times does not hold water with me today.. I mean pretty much being a satanist is a fad now, and all this occult shit is in our face everyday : the symbolism , control , bla bla blah.. So why is it still a secret in todays ridiculously camp materialistic, brainwashed, manipulated world? Is there really that much to hide anymore?.. Or is it because freemasonry is one of the roots of this ridiculous manipulation?

Actually, I think you make a good point about the secrecy; no, I would say it is no longer necessary. Now, for example, at least in democratic countries, Freemasonry and occult societies may openly exist without fear of persecution, at least for the most part. I am a member of several other organizations besides Freemasonry, several of which take a much more serious and in-depth look at occultism than Freemasonry does. However, none of these societies holds any particular knowledge that one can't find on his own providing he has a library card. The main point, I think, is to provide an arena where people of like minds can actually congregate, discuss, and celebrate these ideas, instead of just studying them alone.

serpentoffire

08-02-2008, 07:35 PM

thelonious

08-02-2008, 07:41 PM

In the base of the authors I believe that you are member of O.T.O.

Is it correct?

No, I'm not a member of the O.T.O., although I consider myself at least fairly knowledeable about them.

I hold membership in Freemasonry (including York and Scottish Rite, and various appendant bodies).

Outside of Masonry, I am a member of Builders of the Adytum, a former member of the Ancient Mystic Order Rosae Crucis, and have memberships in the Knights of Pythias, Loyal Order of Moose, and Benevolent and Protective Order of Elk.

thetonic

08-02-2008, 07:44 PM

Have you ever heard of Leo Zagami?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4217744023249694255&q=leo+zagami&total=64&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

serpentoffire

08-02-2008, 07:51 PM

Have you ever heard of Leo Zagami?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4217744023249694255&q=leo+zagami&total=64&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

I know personally Leo and I went in his house in Rome.

I had a meeting two days ago using skype where Leo responded us about a lot of questions about Illuminati and freemasonry.

thetonic

08-02-2008, 07:54 PM

I know personally Leo and I went in his house in Rome.

I had a meeting two days ago using skype where Leo responded us about a lot of questions about Illuminati and freemasonry.

Wicked! .. Hook me up with some info Serp! Im personally skeptical, but he does say some truth i can feel it

thelonious

08-02-2008, 08:06 PM

Have you ever heard of Leo Zagami?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4217744023249694255&q=leo+zagami&total=64&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Yes, I've seen a couple of his YouTube videos, and have spoke to several Thelemites (both OTO and anti-OTO) about him.

Zagami briefly belonged to a small illegitimate branch-off of OTO called OTOA. It was founded by an expelled ex-member of OTO who lives in Chicago. Zagami was apparently expelled from this group, and has since made a big stink over it. He has never been a regular Mason or even a regular OTO member (all his certificates can be viewed online; notice all of them were signed by the same guy, the Chicago dude).

I don't know if you know anything about OTO and its splinter groups and politics, but that's a thread in itself. :D

psychicdefender

08-02-2008, 08:19 PM

Possibly, but not necessarily. Regardless if you have family members that are Masons, if you have friends that are Masons, they'd probably like to see you join the fraternity.

Something which my family have never made plain to me, so I assume that none of my immediate family/friends are masons.

No, that would strongly go against the principles of Masonry. Masonic law states that new candidates must come by their own free will and accord, without improper prompting, and have as their reason for joining a desire of knowledge and to be serviceable to their fellow man.

But would it negate my free will? If I had made the 'mistake' of assuming that was what was required of me to get anywhere, it was never made plain that it was required of me, then surely I would have been acting of my own free will.

If a Mason tried to trick you into joining, it wouldn't help you or him. You would not be receptive to Freemasonry because you'd feel that you'd been conned, and the member who tricked you would have violated his obligations and be subject to expulsion.

How would I have been conned? Everyone enters into masonry without the damndest idea what it provides.

Masonry is a theistic institution, largely concerned with spiritual growth and knowledge.

In my limited understanding and from what has been explained to me a 'Supreme Being' can be anything (generally a school of thought, for instance Philosophy) so how is masonry theistic?

The original mediaval intiation into the stonecraft guild was pretty simple: the candidate took an oath to perform his duties, was presented with the working tools, and apprenticed to some Master Mason. When the fraternity began to evolve into a philosophical society, the ritual was expanded upon by neo-Platonists, Kabalists, Rosicrucians, Hermeticists, and various mystics and occult philosophers, probably as a method of preserving their teachings during a time of persecution by the Church. This is probably also the reason the fraternity went underground at that point as a secret society.

So basically masonry is just a society of philosophers using rituals most of them don't understand?

I'm not sure what you mean by "fallen" cherubs. The Coat of Arms of the United Grand Lodge of England displays the Cherubs on the Ark of the Covenant.

Coat of Arms (http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25&Itemid=34)

I don't see the Ark of the Covenant there, please explain.

This symbolism was probably introduced by the aforementioned Neo-Platonists. Both Plato and Plotinus elaborated on the dualistic nature of man and his environment, and it became a religious mystery among the ancient Magi, in the form of an antagonistic relationship between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman.

So masonry believes that we are here to dominate our environment and not to act in harmony with it?

However, it is not necessarily true that they increase proportionately. The Magian doctrine stated that good will eventually overcome evil. In Masonry, this is represented by the initiate, whose spiritual nature is to overcome his animal passions.

So the purpose of masonry is to become cold and unfeeling, detached from the things one feels passionate about? Why does an initiate need to overcopme these 'evil' feelings? Sounds like Catholic guilt trips to me...

chicken

08-02-2008, 08:35 PM

So the purpose of masonry is to become cold and unfeeling, detached from the things one feels passionate about?

Depends what you got to use this new way of looking at things for? Good deeds or bad?

.....and this is what Tolle is spouting in his books - it is reversed. Read the thread in the other thread running alongside this....Plato was about the reversals - like relativism - good and evil, high, low and so on

chicken

serpentoffire

08-02-2008, 08:40 PM

Yes, I've seen a couple of his YouTube videos, and have spoke to several Thelemites (both OTO and anti-OTO) about him.

Zagami briefly belonged to a small illegitimate branch-off of OTO called OTOA. It was founded by an expelled ex-member of OTO who lives in Chicago. Zagami was apparently expelled from this group, and has since made a big stink over it. He has never been a regular Mason or even a regular OTO member (all his certificates can be viewed online; notice all of them were signed by the same guy, the Chicago dude).

I don't know if you know anything about OTO and its splinter groups and politics, but that's a thread in itself. :D

I wrote to Leo to verify your version.

thetonic

08-02-2008, 08:45 PM

QUESTION: How do you feel about the coming NEW WORLD ORDER?... Do you feel you will somehow be left alone because you are a mason?.. Will you accept a microchip implant?.. Will you accept a Real I.D. ?.. Do you believe in aliens or trans dimensional entities?.. What do you think of Ron Paul?

thelonious

08-02-2008, 09:43 PM

But would it negate my free will? If I had made the 'mistake' of assuming that was what was required of me to get anywhere, it was never made plain that it was required of me, then surely I would have been acting of my own free will.

Most false assumptions would be cleared up previous to initiation when the candidate meets with the membership committee. The committee's responsibility is to outline the history and philosophy of Freemasonry, and to answer the candidate's questions. It is required that the candidate understand that he is not to seek initiation out of "mercenary motives", and that Freemasonry's purpose is to offer an enlightened and charitable outlook on life.

How would I have been conned? Everyone enters into masonry without the damndest idea what it provides.

I would have to disagree. Most candidates have studied Freemasonry previously, and have a general idea of what to expect. I had read probably over a dozen Masonic and anti-Masonic books before I applied for membership.

In my limited understanding and from what has been explained to me a 'Supreme Being' can be anything (generally a school of thought, for instance Philosophy) so how is masonry theistic?

It is theistic in that it requires belief in a Supreme Being, i.e., a Being (not school of thought) greater than ourselves. In Freemasonry, the terms "Freemasonry", "God", and "Great Architect of the Universe" are used interchangeably.

Furthermore, Lodge meetings are opened and closed in prayer, an invocation is offered in behalf of the candidate when he is initiated, and the Lodge is opened "in the name of God and the Holy Saints John". Freemasonry's official position is to promote "the Brotherhood of Man under the Fatherhood of God".

So basically masonry is just a society of philosophers using rituals most of them don't understand?

Originally, it was a society of philosophers using rituals they themselves created and understood well. Today, not so much. One of my own criticisms against Masonry is not against the institution, but against certain individual Masons. Unfortunately, most Masons are not philosophers or mystics or sages. You are certainly correct that most Masons don't understand the rituals; most belong to what we call "the Fork and Knife Degree", i.e., those Masons who join Masonry and come to meetings just so they can get out of the house a couple of times per month and have a good meal with friends. To them, Freemasonry is a social club.

However, to others, Freemasonry is an archive of the highest philosophical and spiritual truths, if one only devotes himself to seeking them.

I don't see the Ark of the Covenant there, please explain.

Sorry, I was referring to the Coat of Arms of the United Grand Lodge of England. You linked to the paradoxically-titles irregular Regular Grand Lodge of All England. None of the US Grand Lodges, nor the UGLE, recognize that organization as a legitimate Masonic body. Not being a member of their organization, I cannot speak for them.

The regular recognized body in the UK is the United Grand Lodge of England, whose website is here:

http://www.ugle.org.uk/

So masonry believes that we are here to dominate our environment and not to act in harmony with it?

I wouldn't say that all. Why would you have that idea?

So the purpose of masonry is to become cold and unfeeling, detached from the things one feels passionate about? Why does an initiate need to overcopme these 'evil' feelings? Sounds like Catholic guilt trips to me...

You may have misunderstood me. I feel passionate about a lot of things...including Masonry. From an occult viewpoint, certain passions can blind us, and are an enemy (the Satan analogy, "Satan" meaning "adversary").

It's not that passions are all bad, but that they are poorly handled, and can be overwhelming, especially for one seeking spiritual enlightment.

In the occult, a man ruled by passions is represented by the inverse pentagram. Each point on the pentagram represents an element, with the single point downward representing Spirit. The four material elements (earth, air, fire, water) are shown above it. Thus, the inverse pentagram represents Spirit dominated by matter. It resembles a goats head, and thus refers to Pan, who was partially animalistic.

The ancient goal of initiation is not to squash the human side of us, but to enlighten it.

thelonious

08-02-2008, 09:53 PM

QUESTION: How do you feel about the coming NEW WORLD ORDER?... Do you feel you will somehow be left alone because you are a mason?

I don't think I'll be left alone vbecause I'm a Mason, but I'm not sure how you define "new world order".

Will you accept a microchip implant?

No. My freedom was bought for me by the blood of my fathers, many of whom also were Masons. It would be treasonous to their memory to not fight for freedom today.

Do you believe in aliens or trans dimensional entities?..

Aliens: I think, as vast as the universe is, there is a reasonable probability of there being some sort of life on other planets, possibly even intelligent life. I agree with Einstein that space travel over long distances is in the strictest sense not possible, so I don't think humans and aliens have ever made any contact. On the other hand, Einstein left open the possibility of cheating during space travel by opening wormholes; it's a possibility, but is only theoretical.

Transdimensional entities: I'm not sure what you mean.

What do you think of Ron Paul?

I agree with Ron Paul on most civil liberties and constitutional viewpoints. However, I strongly disagree with his libertarian economic policies (I have an inherent distrust of capitalism).

I originally supported Dennis Kucinich for president. Kucinich agrees with Paul on the constitution and civil liberties, but I think Kucinich has far better economic ideas (Kucinich doesn't trust corporate capitalism either).

Now that Kucinich has dropped out, I'm supporting Obama.

serpentoffire

08-02-2008, 09:58 PM

It is theistic in that it requires belief in a Supreme Being, i.e., a Being (not school of thought) greater than ourselves. In Freemasonry, the terms "Freemasonry", "God", and "Great Architect of the Universe" are used interchangeably.

Furthermore, Lodge meetings are opened and closed in prayer, an invocation is offered in behalf of the candidate when he is initiated, and the Lodge is opened "in the name of God and the Holy Saints John". Freemasonry's official position is to promote "the Brotherhood of Man under the Fatherhood of God".

Which God? Yhvh, Baal, Semiramis, Tammuz, Horus, Isis, Osiris, An, Enki, Enlil, ..

M∴M∴M∴ :D

thelonious

08-02-2008, 10:04 PM

Which God? Yhvh, Baal, Semiramis, Tammuz, Horus, Isis, Osiris, An, Enki, Enlil, ..

M∴M∴M∴ :D

Well, as I mentioned, I'm a Unitarian Universalist. I believe there's only one God, and that many people from many different cultures have given him many different names throughout history, and made up all sorts of stories about him, some of which are true, some not so much.

Because Freemasonry has a Christian heritage, and an Anglican one in particular, many Christian terms and even symbolism can be found in Masonry. But Christianity is not a requirement for membership, and no one in the Lodge may question a candidate as to his religious beliefs

serpentoffire

08-02-2008, 10:18 PM

Well, as I mentioned, I'm a Unitarian Universalist. I believe there's only one God, and that many people from many different cultures have given him many different names throughout history, and made up all sorts of stories about him, some of which are true, some not so much.

Because Freemasonry has a Christian heritage, and an Anglican one in particular, many Christian terms and even symbolism can be found in Masonry. But Christianity is not a requirement for membership, and no one in the Lodge may question a candidate as to his religious beliefs

Unitarian Universalist web site is this one ?
http://www.uua.org/

or this?
http://www.masonryuniversal.org/

or this?
http://www.grandlodgeaum.org/

thelonious

08-02-2008, 10:19 PM

Unitarian Universalist web site is this one ?
http://www.uua.org/

That's the one. It's an organization of liberal churches, not a Masonic body.

serpentoffire

08-02-2008, 10:22 PM

That's the one. It's an organization of liberal churches, not a Masonic body.

An organization of mind controlled people like Comunione e Liberazione or Opus Dei in Italy. See the faces:

http://www.uua.org/images/template/home-main-photo11.jpg

thelonious

08-02-2008, 10:26 PM

An organization of mind controlled people like Comunione e Liberazione or Opus Dei in Italy. See the faces:

Do you think that one cannot be happy unless they are mind-controlled?

Since the UU is a congregational church that is non-creedal, meaning that each individual member must take on the responsibility of discovering spiritual truth for him or herself, how can they be mind-controlled?

serpentoffire

08-02-2008, 10:44 PM

Do you think that one cannot be happy unless they are mind-controlled?

Since the UU is a congregational church that is non-creedal, meaning that each individual member must take on the responsibility of discovering spiritual truth for him or herself, how can they be mind-controlled?

These people are mind controlled through the study of the bible. They construct their "map of the territory" (NLP concept) building a false perception of reality inside their poor mind. The map include racism, misogynism, violence against all the people that not share the same ideals (this explain why Bush have a lot of supporters).

The rest of job is done by their leader through the [mis-]interpretation
of holy scripture. I think that these women could be less happy if they read more about what bible says about them.

If you are not jews you are a Goim and bible authorize jews to destroy you through usury (see Talmud).

thelonious

08-02-2008, 10:53 PM

These people are mind controlled through the study of the bible. They construct their "map of the territory" (NLP concept) building a false perception of reality inside their poor mind. The map include racism, misogynism, violence against all the poople that not share the same ideals.

The rest of job is done by their leader through the [mis-]interpretation
of holy scripture. I think that these women could be less happy if they read more about what bible says about them.

If you are not jews you are a Goim and bible authorize jews to destroy you through usury (see Talmud).

Perhaps you should read a little more on that site before jumping to a hasty conclusion. UU Churches don't generally use the Bible, and when they do, they do not claim it is "God's infallible word".

UU churches are generally for religious exiles: people who left traditional Christian churches because they *don't* agree with the Bible or Christianity.

For example, Thomas Jefferson was a Unitarian. He published the Jefferson Bible, which left intact all of Jesus' talk about loving your neighbor and doing good deeds, but eliminated all references to miracles and God's wrath. Charles Darwin was also a Unitarian, and in commemoration of his birthday, my church is having Evolution Day next Sunday to celebrate his memory.

serpentoffire

08-02-2008, 10:59 PM

Perhaps you should read a little more on that site before jumping to a hasty conclusion. UU Churches don't generally use the Bible, and when they do, they do not claim it is "God's infallible word".

UU churches are generally for religious exiles: people who left traditional Christian churches because they *don't* agree with the Bible or Christianity.

For example, Thomas Jefferson was a Unitarian. He published the Jefferson Bible, which left intact all of Jesus' talk about loving your neighbor and doing good deeds, but eliminated all references to miracles and God's wrath. Charles Darwin was also a Unitarian, and in commemoration of his birthday, my church is having Evolution Day next Sunday to celebrate his memory.

Why don't you embrace Scientology instead?

BTW Thomas Jefferson and Charles Darwin were Freemasons.

paganus

08-02-2008, 11:10 PM

with the mention of Albert Pike,is there a link with the KKK?

chicken

08-02-2008, 11:39 PM

Well - she sighs deeply. Charles Darwin, Pike, KKK, freemasons

ARE ALL EUGENICS supporters........

I live in the Charles Darwin County. I have 40 lodges here. I am actually suprised he was a mason - but I am not too

Is freemasonry a New Religious Movement? I have heard it was a cult - or fringes of that concept

Now research Darwin+Occult+Hitler

serpentoffire

08-02-2008, 11:50 PM

psychicdefender

09-02-2008, 12:46 AM

Sorry, I was referring to the Coat of Arms of the United Grand Lodge of England. You linked to the paradoxically-titles irregular Regular Grand Lodge of All England. None of the US Grand Lodges, nor the UGLE, recognize that organization as a legitimate Masonic body. Not being a member of their organization, I cannot speak for them.

The regular recognized body in the UK is the United Grand Lodge of England, whose website is here:

http://www.ugle.org.uk/

I checked the UGLE website and if you take a look in the logo in the top right hand corner... Why the beastial legs, I assume this is because they are 'fallen' cherubs... (Interestingly enough the concept of a Cherub 'appears' to come from Babylon, although the issue is pretty mixed up, I go with the opinion that some 'fell' and some didn't)

Edit - UGLE, ugly, geddit?! :)

This is no personal attack on you, I just have a lot of problems with freemasonry (especially a lot of what is behind the 'teachings' of masonry), as it has in the past been presented to me and now currently as well. I don't understand why anyone should feel the need to become a member to learn 'the things of God', but that is my personal/spiritual opinion.

cruise4

09-02-2008, 03:30 AM

OK thelonius... thanks for answering. All your points show me you have no understanding of the reality of the situation (psych lack/secret/negative) so it would be a waste of my time to carry on, except to say I regard psychology and psychiatry as mostly quackery and one of my best friends who was also a PHD in this subject agrees. You missed the gold stars bit which points up the 'embarassment' angle but I'd guess you would trot along to Bucks palace and be suitably impressed by a bit of metal on the chest courtesy of a traitor.

Needless to say I detest freemasonry and all it stands for along with any other similar organisations.

Thors... I don't wish to know about symbols,rituals etc. I want to know about freemason mindset. Posts like mine are not always an out and out attack. The answer is very informative. Generally they don't actually understand their own involvement, but probably think they do.

paganus

09-02-2008, 08:17 AM

chicken

09-02-2008, 12:11 PM

serpentoffire

Behind of eugenics study there is Rockfeller bloodline.
Rockfeller supported financially Hiltler during WWII.

yes - from what I have researched - it seems that way. I looked at freemasonry and eugenics and saw the parallel links and saw the thinking and who was behind it and who was involved... Eugenics to Assassination....?!

I discovered that Alex Graham Bell - married a Hubbard who was connected to the people who invented National Geographic. Ok - maybe that is not so interesting. But the Hubbard line goes to the Ron Hubbard of Scientology - was he into Eugenics

I would say yes - as the occult fits with both Hitler and Hubbard and they were into Eugenics - same source (theosophy)

chicken

09-02-2008, 12:18 PM

Also the freemasons were into Eugenics which means that they were interested in psychiatry or psychology.

yes - it is based on quackery. I agree on that.

The Theosophical Society or any religion as I see it is/ are a form of life coaching. Basing beliefs around a life style or something like that..

Landmark, Scientology, EST, Children of God and so on is a form of life coaching. Enforced belief pushing. This covers the bible for me.

I am only interested in truth - no religion :D

eternal_spirit

09-02-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:
Behind of eugenics study there is Rockfeller bloodline.
Rockfeller supported financially Hiltler during WWII.

..............................
Same Jewish Zionist's who financed the Bolshevik revolution killed around 30 million ( mostly christians and non jews where massacred and starved to death on purpose ) even more some figures say, in the Gulag concentration camps, this evil continued up until 1958, until the death of Stalin ( Jew)

Where where the allies and the USA British troops etc then? No where to be seen, because the leaders, politicians and heads of the military where Zionist Jews.

BTW many more millions of Germans died than Jews, the Germans where starved to death and put into concentration camps by the allies after the War. How do you know some of the old black and white pictures aren't really Germans?

Many mind control and torture methods would of been experimented with in the Gulags.

Think British Iraelists ( think Jerusalem, knights Templar, who became the Masons, think NWO, they wanted to destroy Germany and Russia because they where strong independant nations who wouldn't tow the line of the NWO globalists plane.

Same as Iraqu and any other independant countries, why else would they spread so much propaganda and destroy these peoples?

This is what the Zionist media and publishers of the so called official history books don't want you to know.

Go here to know the score http://www.jewwatch.com/

This site has come under attack many times by the Zionists, doesn't that tell you something? his site has many truths. See who's behind and controlls the NWO and the Masons etc. Then read the Protocols of Zion see what's in that and compare it with what's going on in the World Today then you'll know the score.

eternal_spirit

09-02-2008, 01:56 PM

serpentoffire

yes - from what I have researched - it seems that way. I looked at freemasonry and eugenics and saw the parallel links and saw the thinking and who was behind it and who was involved... Eugenics to Assassination....?!

I discovered that Alex Graham Bell - married a Hubbard who was connected to the people who invented National Geographic. Ok - maybe that is not so interesting. But the Hubbard line goes to the Ron Hubbard of Scientology - was he into Eugenics

I would say yes - as the occult fits with both Hitler and Hubbard and they were into Eugenics - same source (theosophy)

................................

British Israelists the Britsh Crown is part of this lot they think they can claim ancestory to the 12 tribes of Isreal. So do the Yahwe lot, Look at the genocide against the Arabic people by the Zionsist Jews, These are the ruling Elite. I think you need to look at this master race mentality it was the Zionists who barbarically sterilized the German people.

Hubbard was in the OTO and knew Crowley ( Theosophy ) some say they where cousins, any wonder they both involved with mind controlling cults.

Operating Thetans ( OT ) degrees of Scientology and the term OTO is too much of a coincidence. OTO and high level Masonry connects and they where obssessed with creating the perfect humans ( playing god with genetics ) or impregnating via rituals, both connected. funded by the Rockefeller foundations and other None Governmental organizations and fund eugenics experiments. Organizations who are exempt from tax. A term of high Masonry is "to take what is imperfect and make it perfect" One meaning of this......Is about eugenics..... artificial insemination with genetically altered genes.

Church of Scientology ( COS ) Church of Satan ( COS ) too much of a coincidence.

eternal_spirit

09-02-2008, 02:12 PM

eternal_spirit

09-02-2008, 02:15 PM

At the request of forum member Paganus, I'm starting an "Ask A Mason" thread. I'll try to address each and every question and post, just give me a little extra time to respond if there are a lot of relpies.

I welcome the opportunity to speak with any all people on the subject regardless of your personal opinions of Freemasonry, let's just please keep it polite and civil.

Thanks!

...................

What is the picture in your avatar and what does it represent?

chicken

09-02-2008, 02:26 PM

Church of Scientology ( COS ) Church of Satan ( COS ) too much of a coincidence.

I agree with that - there are too many coincidences in this lot.

Operating thetan (thought) - for me I read that this is about if you get to that level - 111 - you are perfect - cleared all your crap and become the "perfect" human and that you are also pschysic.

Anyway - its very interesting and it helps me alot with my understanding. In my "fair game" style targetting. I believe that they took my bloodline and took us apart. My dad suffered a similiar fate. He joined the Independent Order of Foresters - (Canadian?) and I understand there is a mixture of views as to whether they are or not freemasonry. I understand they split into three groups later on.

Now someone has put me on into this infernal situation. I am being zapped 24/7 - no way is that coming from my mind. It is inputted. My electrochemical system has thus then backfired. We work on 5-10 watts. I probably am running on 50 :D. I get vibrating body parts that can only amount to an RFID chip - or perhaps a few. Maybe we are all chipped then? They decided to switch on me? Any I find it all very odd and probably, poosiblty people out there think I suffer from Bizzare delusions.

I have worked out who is involved and not why - will I ever that far?

(Thanks for the info.....)

Dunno?

Chicken

eternal_spirit

09-02-2008, 02:43 PM

http://www.sosatan.org/

The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black God, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry. For the Initiates, this is not a person, but a force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or free will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God Pan; thence the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the light bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.”
- Albert Pike “Morals and Dogma“ Ancient and Accepted Rite of Free Masonry written and published in 1875.

"Hate those that earn it, as you would love those that earn it, As Above, so below."
"When the world is viewed with no set reality, the lies of society are revealed and the bonds of slavery, broken."
- Rev. Michael S. Margolin

Welcome to The Sinagogue of Satan founded on 1-29-99. A religion based on the Ancient and Accepted Rite of Free Masonry’s definition of Satanism, as described in Albert Pike’s work “Morals and Dogma“, from which the paragraph at the top of this page was taken. This religion is not based on those of the popular Satanists of our day, Hollywood or Christian propaganda, except for Aleister Crowley. His connection with the Freemasons and the fact we took our name from a short story in his book Konx om Pax, called “Thien Tao; or, The Synagogue of Satan.” Cannot be denied nor can we deny being a by-product of the Thelemic family.

Albert Pike was Ruling Elite and evil man. See how these satanists lie and decieve the people in the same was as Pike and co.

chicken

09-02-2008, 03:05 PM

I live 10 miles from the "Order of the Nine Angles"

that IS Satanic as it comes. I believe that it has gone underground and is within society....

chicken

dann

09-02-2008, 03:18 PM

I live 10 miles from the "Order of the Nine Angles"

that IS Satanic as it comes. I believe that it has gone underground and is within society....

chicken

Why don't you go to an open day and see what its all about, instead of making it up in your head??:)

I love KFC!!

eternal_spirit

09-02-2008, 03:26 PM

Why don't you go to an open day and see what its all about, instead of making it up in your head??:)

I love KFC!!
...............................

Another satanist masonic lackie are you?

I've seen that site and I agree chicken it's not good.

dann

09-02-2008, 03:28 PM

...............................

Another satanist masonic lackie are you?

I've seen that site and I agree chicken it's not good.

Who me? wouldn't know where to start?

eternal_spirit

09-02-2008, 03:29 PM

chicken

09-02-2008, 03:44 PM

Another satanist masonic lackie are you?

I've seen that site and I agree chicken it's not good.

Its the only order in the UK which believes in murder and human sacrifice from what I understand. Every seventeen years tey take someone out.

I have been married 17 years and was tried to be taken out twice this/last year. by suicide and by car accidents. I have an advanced driving certificate

There might be a connection with the council of nine in the USA? - the order of nine angles?

Pubs - yep - lots of those names where I live too.....

very masonic - 40 lodges as I said.....

chicken

thelonious

09-02-2008, 04:27 PM

Why don't you embrace Scientology instead?

Just to elaborate, UU is a religious congregation for rationalists. Rationalists generally don't believe in Xenu, the galactic overlord. :D

BTW Thomas Jefferson and Charles Darwin were Freemasons.

Actually, neither one of them were Masons. The confusion over Jefferson arises from the claim he once marched in a Masonic parade, but this claim is not completely true; he marched in a procession to George Washington's funeral. Washington was a Mason and was buried with Masonic honors, but Jefferson did not participate in the Masonic service.

thelonious

09-02-2008, 04:32 PM

with the mention of Albert Pike,is there a link with the KKK?

It has been claimed that Albert Pike was a member of the Ku Klux Klan. However, the claim has never been substantiated, and is probably false.

The KKK was founded by Nathan Bedford Forrest; there were no KKK documents ever showing Pike as a member. Furthermore, Pike never mentioned the KKK in his writings. In his book "Symbolism of the Blue Degrees", Pike wrote that the only other order he belonged to outside of Masonry was the Oddfellows.

When the rank-and-file members of the KKK began to engage in terrorist activity, Forrest disbanded the order, and the gentlemen members left to protest the violence. However, the terrorist members continued to meet and engage in criminal activity.

Had Pike been an early member, he would have left with Forrest, but again, thereis no documentation that he was really a member, and Forrest never mentioned him when he wrote about the founding of the KKK.

thelonious

09-02-2008, 04:37 PM

Thanks for all of your other questions, I will try to answer them shortly. Very quickly, concerning the post which claimed Pike said "Lucifer is God":

This was a hoax brought aboutby a French anti-Masonic author named Leo Taxil. He attributed the quote to Pike, which was republished by Abel Clarin de la Rive and Lady Quennsborough. Eventually, Taxil's hoax was discovered, and de le Rive retracted it, and publicly apologized to Pike's daughter Lily for slandering her late father.

Queensborough used de la Rive as her source.

thelonious

09-02-2008, 04:39 PM

Albert Pike was Ruling Elite and evil man. See how these satanists lie and decieve the people in the same was as Pike and co.

Not even close.

Pike was speaking *against* atheism and materialism in that quote (Morals and Dogma, p. 109).

eternal_spirit

09-02-2008, 05:07 PM

Not even close.

Pike was speaking *against* atheism and materialism in that quote (Morals and Dogma, p.

109).

........................

So why's he referred to as the Pope of Freemasonry. Guess you deny the Satanic connection.

eternal_spirit

09-02-2008, 05:11 PM

eternal_spirit

09-02-2008, 05:20 PM

Actually, neither one of them were Masons. The confusion over Jefferson arises from the claim he once marched in a Masonic parade, but this claim is not completely true; he marched in a procession to George Washington's funeral. Washington was a Mason and was buried with Masonic honors, but Jefferson did not participate in the Masonic service.
.................................................. .......

I disagree about Darwin he was funded and his theory of Evolution promoted by Masons, he was Elite bloodline. That's why to this day it's taught in schools.

It's based on Hinduism, I've read the bit about creation and it does have much in common with Darwin's natural selection theory etc. It's propaganda for the Ruling Elite to justify why they think they have the right to rule the masses. it's a superiority bloodline genetic divine right to rule.

eternal_spirit

09-02-2008, 05:31 PM

In Tantric the aim of the advanced practitioners is to have sex with spirits even the goddess shakti or the god shiva and other spirits to maybe give birth to a child union of a mortal human and a spirit. Like in the Moonchild theory ( another of Crowley's themes and a book ) also Rosemary's baby. This goes way back to earliest known tantrics of India, OTO do this at the higher levels.

The masons the Elite they have special women or men of chosen blood lines. This is where the scarlet woman whore of babylon fits in, also know as the sacred prostitute ( the hell fire club ) Benjamin Franklin was a member of this. See they believed before there where any humans they willed bodies into existence ( the spirits ) And they reincarnate into the same family lineage, this is why they inter marry to their cousens etc. Also the Mormon church is a good example of this that's why they have files stored of all members genetic and lineage. Some of the rituals re about communing with the dead.

This is were demonic possession fits in the souls ( spirits demons look for human bodies to inhabit )
discarnate entities wating to incarnate into to a human host.

SRA is used maybe , and sex rituals to create a vibrational compatibility between demon ( spirit ) an the human host, allowing possession of the human host by the spirit. Symbolically and alternativly this could be viewed as the demon being a added personality created in the persons mind "MPD"
Sure you know about the blood sacrafcie how that attracts the demons of the lower astral planes.

thelonious

09-02-2008, 05:41 PM

........................

So why's he referred to as the Pope of Freemasonry.

I challenge you to show me one single Mason who referred to Pike as a "pope of Freemasonry".

Guess you deny the Satanic connection.

"Satan" is a Christian concept, not a Masonic one.

thelonious

09-02-2008, 05:43 PM

...............

To the high level masons Lucifer is God.

What, in your belief, constitutes a "high level Mason"?

Lucifer in Heaven became Satan when cast out of Heaven. The demons of demonology are the Angels who followed Lucifer when he was cast out from Heaven.

You are here elaborating on Christian belief and mythology. That's great, butithas nothing to do with Freemasonry.

thelonious

09-02-2008, 05:44 PM

.................................................. .......

I disagree about Darwin he was funded and his theory of Evolution promoted by Masons, he was Elite bloodline. That's why to this day it's taught in schools.

It's based on Hinduism, I've read the bit about creation and it does have much in common with Darwin's natural selection theory etc. It's propaganda for the Ruling Elite to justify why they think they have the right to rule the masses. it's a superiority bloodline genetic divine right to rule.

It's taught in schools because schools teach science, and evolution is the science of biological development. There is no "divine right to rule" in evolution. The mistaken notion of "divine right to rule" comes from Christianity, not science.

thelonious

09-02-2008, 05:46 PM

...................

What is the picture in your avatar and what does it represent?

It is the flaming chalice, which is the symbol of the Unitarian Universalist Church.

thelonious

09-02-2008, 05:48 PM

Quote: chicken

Order of Foresters - (Canadian?) and I understand there is a mixture of views as to whether they are or not freemasonry. I understand they split into three groups later on.

........................

Not sure, there may be groups in the UK, unless they moved abroad. There is a pub near me named the Foresters Arms. Also the Oddfellows arms, the Oddfellows think they're masonic, but low level.

Order of Foresters is not Masonic, but is a Catholic fraternal organization. Its ritual and legends are based on the story of Robin Hood.

Oddfellows are not a Masonic organization, but many Oddfellows have also been Masons.

chicken

09-02-2008, 05:51 PM

Order of Foresters is not Masonic?

some sites do some don't, I understood it was....

fraternal is that not a masonic term

chicken

thelonious

09-02-2008, 05:52 PM

Hubbard was in the OTO and knew Crowley ( Theosophy ) some say they where cousins, any wonder they both involved with mind controlling cults.

Actually, Hubbard was never in the OTO. He and Crowley never apparently met. Crowley mentioned Hubbard once in a letter to Jack Parson, where he called Hubbard a "scoundrel" and "con artist", and warned Parsons to stay away from him. Parsons didn't take Crowley's advice, and suffered for it in the end.

Hubbard did indeed appear to adapt some OTO techniques in Scientology, but in a way that would have hardly met with Crowley's approval.

mondo23

09-02-2008, 05:55 PM

The vast, vast majority of Masons are middle class. While there are a few wealthy Masons, most of them are just card-carriers, and don't even participate in Masonry.

Masonic Lodges do not employ waiters or any other staff. The Junior Warden and Stewards, who are officers of the Lodge, serve the brothers at feast. Did you mean that you helped cater an event, or something else? I'm not insinuating that you aren't telling the truth, I just want to be sure I understand you what you mean.

I work at least 3 nights a week as waiter here: http://www.province.org.uk/

I personally serve the masons their food along with about 15 other people in total. I have never seen junior wardens or stewards serve the brothers at their feast. I have seen some of them fill the brothers glasses with wine however.

eternal_spirit

09-02-2008, 05:57 PM

It's taught in schools because schools teach science, and evolution is the science of biological development. There is no "divine right to rule" in evolution. The mistaken notion of "divine right to rule" comes from Christianity, not science.

......................................

It's not science but a theory which is an unproven reality which is "faith based". has nothing to do with Christianity which teaches God was the creator. Look at the Hindu caste system, and royal blood lines, the divine right to rule by blood lineage.

eternal_spirit

09-02-2008, 06:00 PM

Actually, Hubbard was never in the OTO. He and Crowley never apparently met. Crowley mentioned Hubbard once in a letter to Jack Parson, where he called Hubbard a "scoundrel" and "con artist", and warned Parsons to stay away from him. Parsons didn't take Crowley's advice, and suffered for it in the end.

Hubbard did indeed appear to adapt some OTO techniques in Scientology, but in a way that would have hardly met with Crowley's approval.

.................................

I disagree. you're digging a deeper hole for yourself here. I can spot a pro Crowley propagandist when I see one.

Agreed with your second point.

thelonious

09-02-2008, 06:00 PM

......................................

It's not science but a theory which is an unproven reality which is "faith based". has nothing to do with Christianity which teaches God was the creator. Look at the Hindu caste system, and royal blood lines, the divine right to rule by blood lineage.

A scientific theory is a collection of facts that lead to an inevitable conclusion. Similarly, gravity is both a theory and fact, just like evolution.

Your mentioning of the Hindu caste system illustrates my earlier point. It is religion, not science, that makes claims about "divine right". Evolution simply points out how biological organisms change over time, and adapt to their environment.

thelonious

09-02-2008, 06:03 PM

.................................

I disagree. you're digging a deeper hole for yourself here. I can spot a pro Crowley propagandist when I see one.

Agreed with your second point.

I have my own personal opinions about Aleister Crowley, that are really not relevant to the discussion. I'm certainly no "pro-Crowley propagandist". I admire the depth of his scholarship, and am constantly amused and entertained by his rebellious attitude, his utter contempt for the status quo, and his bizarre sense of humor. However, the man certainly had psychological and emotional problems, and I do not condone his personal behaviour.

cruise4

10-02-2008, 08:36 AM

"how can you talk of the realities of psychiatric lack if psychiatry is quackery? its a condradiction."

Language issue. Psyche as a noun and psychology or psychiatry as a subject defined by university education are to me completely different. I could have said character flaw for instance, so my bad. The study of 'fish' and the study of 'fishing' relate to the same subject and overlap but can also be at opposite ends of the spectrum with regard to intent.

spiraltrance

10-02-2008, 04:58 PM

hi, thelonious

Can you confirm this was true :-

The head of the Seventeenth Century Order of Freemasons, the Duke of Brunswick, once accused them (the illuminati) of having infiltrated masonry using black magic, mesmerism and the art of suggestion to program victims.

“I have been convinced that we, as an Order, have come under the power of some very evil occult Order, profoundly versed in science, both occult and otherwise, though not infallible, their method being BLACK MAGIC, that is to say, electro-magnetic power, hypnotism and powerful suggestion. We are convinced that the Order is being controlled by some Sun Order, after the nature of the Illuminati, if not by that Order itself.”

dann

10-02-2008, 07:01 PM

hi, thelonious

Can you confirm this was true :-

what would it mean if its not?

spiraltrance

10-02-2008, 07:21 PM

what would it mean if its not?

To me not that much either way. I'd be interested to know if it was true though and what your own personal opinion on the subject is.

dann

10-02-2008, 08:35 PM

To me not that much either way. I'd be interested to know if it was true though and what your own personal opinion on the subject is.

the illuminati are not to do with the freemasons and any freemason who quotes about it, is not talking for the order, as the order would be silent on any approach on any taboo subject.

Thats what I think!

So to put it simple its alot of bull

eternal_spirit

10-02-2008, 08:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by eternal_spirit http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=267382#post267382)
.................................

I disagree. you're digging a deeper hole for yourself here. I can spot a pro Crowley propagandist when I see one.

Agreed with your second point.
############################
Quote; thelonius
I have my own personal opinions about Aleister Crowley, that are really not relevant to the discussion. I'm certainly no "pro-Crowley propagandist". I admire the depth of his scholarship, and am constantly amused and entertained by his rebellious attitude, his utter contempt for the status quo, and his bizarre sense of humor. However, the man certainly had psychological and emotional problems, and I do not condone his personal behaviour.

...........................

Thanks for the self admission, knew I was right.

dann

10-02-2008, 09:01 PM

ichi wa zen

10-02-2008, 11:22 PM

Hey Thelonious, great wise man who knows all.

Why do we exist? And who are we?

dann

11-02-2008, 12:27 AM

Hey Thelonious, great wise man who knows all.

Why do we exist? And who are we?

We are here to make babys and then we die, simple as that!

thetonic

11-02-2008, 03:16 AM

We are here to make babys and then we die, simple as that!

i thought this was ask a freemason?

dann

11-02-2008, 09:38 AM

i thought this was ask a freemason?

I am a freemason, I have been for years.

dann

11-02-2008, 09:48 AM

Hey Thelonious, great wise man who knows all.

Why do we exist? And who are we?

I know the answer to this its three numbers but I am not going to tell you

drael

11-02-2008, 10:34 AM

Okay, now a picture is forming.

ichi wa zen

11-02-2008, 11:27 AM

We are here to make babys and then we die, simple as that!

WRONG!

eternal_spirit

11-02-2008, 11:53 AM

WRONG!

.............................

Some of us don't get laid enough to do so :(
:D

dann

11-02-2008, 12:03 PM

.............................

Some of us don't get laid enough to do so :(
:D

Lol:o:o:o:o:o:o:o

thelonious

11-02-2008, 05:07 PM

hi, thelonious

Can you confirm this was true :-

It does not appear to be authentic. For example, the quote uses the terminology of conspiracy theorists, not Masons or occultists.

thetonic

11-02-2008, 08:26 PM

Mo0n5tar

11-02-2008, 08:47 PM

I would like to ask all the freemasons what they think of the concept of the Madonna and the original predating black Madonna.

I would also like to ask the freemasons for their definition of freemasonry, or what it is to be one?

Also whether or not it corresponds to the Egyptian concept of Matt, cosmic order, truth, justice etc...

Kind regards

Mick

thelonious

11-02-2008, 09:09 PM

At what point do you draw a line in what your telling people on this sight?.. As freemasonry is a secretive order, and you have taken an oath not to divulge certain aspects of it.. At what point can we trust a secretive person up to?

It's important to understand that Freemasonry is not a secretive order, per se; it's a fraternity, and like all fraternities and sororities, has its own traditional secrets, but the organization itself is not secretive, nor are its members. None of the actual teachings of Masonry are secret; the only things that are considered "secret" are certain parts of the initiation ceremony, and the traditional "recognition" secrets (passwords, handshakes, etc.). Anything else is pretty much open for discussion.

What degree of mason are you by the way if you havent already stated?...

I am a Master Mason, and Past Master of my Lodge. I am a 32° member of the Scottish Rite, and in the York Rite am a Royal Arch Mason, Knight Templar, and Knight of the York Cross of Honour. I am also a Shriner, and belong to various other Masonic organizations that most non-Masons are not familiar with (Royal Ark Mariners, Order of the Red Branch of Eri, and Ye Antient Order of Corks, to name a few).

thelonious

11-02-2008, 09:12 PM

I would like to ask all the freemasons what they think of the concept of the Madonna and the original predating black Madonna.

Personally, I believe the Christian concept of the Madonna is based on the older story of Isis, although not all Masons would agree with me on that.

I would also like to ask the freemasons for their definition of freemasonry, or what it is to be one?

I define Freemasonry as a fraternal organization whose primary goal is to preserve a system of symbolism and allegorical drama that holds keys to leading an enlightened life.

Also whether or not it corresponds to the Egyptian concept of Matt, cosmic order, truth, justice etc...

Perhaps in a sense; it is certain that early Freemasons were influenced by some of those ideas.

Mo0n5tar

11-02-2008, 09:58 PM

Personally, I believe the Christian concept of the Madonna is based on the older story of Isis, although not all Masons would agree with me on that.

Isis and Osiris being father of Horus?

Is this element of your belief system something that has evolved out of your affiliation or were you this way inclined before entering the lodge?
Is a knowledge of Egyptology, Egyptian symbolism important to your role as a Mason or in particular a Shriner?

I define Freemasonry as a fraternal organization whose primary goal is to preserve a system of symbolism and allegorical drama that holds keys to leading an enlightened life.

Do you as a Freemason see any significant importance in leading as you say an enlightened life, in this case are there fraternities more committed than others to leading one onto an enlightened path?

Perhaps in a sense; it is certain that early Freemasons were influenced by some of those ideas.

Sincerely
Mick

dann

11-02-2008, 11:52 PM

It's important to understand that Freemasonry is not a secretive order, per se; it's a fraternity, and like all fraternities and sororities, has its own traditional secrets, but the organization itself is not secretive, nor are its members. None of the actual teachings of Masonry are secret; the only things that are considered "secret" are certain parts of the initiation ceremony, and the traditional "recognition" secrets (passwords, handshakes, etc.). Anything else is pretty much open for discussion.

I am a Master Mason, and Past Master of my Lodge. I am a 32° member of the Scottish Rite, and in the York Rite am a Royal Arch Mason, Knight Templar, and Knight of the York Cross of Honour. I am also a Shriner, and belong to various other Masonic organizations that most non-Masons are not familiar with (Royal Ark Mariners, Order of the Red Branch of Eri, and Ye Antient Order of Corks, to name a few).

This is right the order has few/ some secrets.

We are open to say we are freemasons

ninja17

12-02-2008, 12:09 AM

Do you meditate a lot in the temples or do you do it outside of them?

In your years of freemasonry going through initiations and rituals did you recognize a change in your consciousness?

Do freemasons think they take part in a "divine" plan for humanity?

Thank you for being so open.

drael

12-02-2008, 04:33 AM

Heres a couple for ya:

I got the impression, that the freemasons beleived the knowing, or enlightened are meant to guide or lead humanity, is this true?

I had heard once, that the last few ranks of masonry where reserved for those with a negative agenda. Have u noticed any people being "held back"?

Symbolism is a fantastic key IMO, and some of the mason symbols seem quite cool. Perhaps u could share something about one of these symbols for us?

Thanks,
Drael

thelonious

12-02-2008, 03:51 PM

Isis and Osiris being father of Horus?

Is this element of your belief system something that has evolved out of your affiliation or were you this way inclined before entering the lodge?
Is a knowledge of Egyptology, Egyptian symbolism important to your role as a Mason or in particular a Shriner?

No, I had those beliefs before I became a Mason. An unbiased study into the religions of various cultures, both ancient and modern, reveal similarities. I believe that Christianity is actually a Jewish version of the Osirian cult, and was also influenced by Mithraism, which it eventually replaced.

Do you as a Freemason see any significant importance in leading as you say an enlightened life, in this case are there fraternities more committed than others to leading one onto an enlightened path?

I think most fraternities, including Greek Letter Societies at the universities, have an enlightened life as their goal. I'm not sure if any are more committed than others.I don't think it's necessary to join any fraternities to be or become enlightened, but the social aspect is helpful. We are, by definition, social animals, and group work brings positive reinforcement. After all, the Buddha didn't stay in solitude after obtaining enlightenment, but instead established a religious community in the form of the sangha.

thelonious

12-02-2008, 04:04 PM

Do you meditate a lot in the temples or do you do it outside of them?

No, the only time we use Lodge rooms are for Masonic meetings. Most Lodges have a business meeting once per month. These types of meetings follow the same form as most civic clubs. My Lodge, and most others, follow this order of business:

1. Lodge is opened on Master Mason's Degree.
2. Worshipful Master (Presiding Officer) welcomes visitors and dignitaries.
3. Minutes from previous meeting are read and approved.
4. Petitions for membership and/or initiation are read and voted on.
5. Unfinished business.
6. New business.
7. Lodge is closed on Master Mason's Degree.

The other meetings we have are degree nights, when one or more candidates are initiated into the various degrees of Masonry.

Nobody ever meditates any the Lodge, but some Masons, especially if they are of Buddhist, Taoist, or Hindu inclination, mediate as part of their personal spiritual practice. I don't technically consider myself a Buddhist, but I often meet with a local group of Zen Buddhists to practice Zazen.

In your years of freemasonry going through initiations and rituals did you recognize a change in your consciousness?

I think so, yes. Not really anything like an epiphany, but one's curiousity and awareness if heightened during the ceremonial act of initiation. It is important, however, to go back and study the initiation ceremony in order to fully understand it; few candidates can gain a satisfactory understanding of Masonic ritual as they are actively participating for the first time. The Lodge assigns "coaches" to new members for this reason.

Do freemasons think they take part in a "divine" plan for humanity?

I think most Masons would agree that *everybody* takes part in a divine plan.

ramesees

12-02-2008, 05:02 PM

So being a 32nd degree Mason, does that mean you are almost at the top (I've read there are 33 degrees), and if so, when you compare with when you first started, how many more "secrets" do you know now than you did then?

What does being a 32nd degree Mason actually mean within Freemasonary circles.

Do you regret joining the Masons? If you had your time over again, would you still have joined?

How quickly did it take you to advance up the degrees, and does the process get harder as you progress? Are there exams you have to take, or is it simply a matter of time served equals another degree up the ladder?

Are all the answers you are giving us truthful, or are they a misdirection? As you are posting this on a web forum, does that give you more or less recourse to be more open with what you can say and not fear the reprocussions of "divulging secrets", or do you still uphold the Masonic creed which is essentially "tell our secrets and suffer the punishments" ?

thetonic

12-02-2008, 05:12 PM

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8451/allseeingeyeqe3.png http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh210/rebel_soldier/rebel_soldier2/MASONRYENCYv1p3.jpg

What is the point of such symbolism?.. Why is it in our face?.. I know it is Masonic so dont try to fuck about

armoured_amazon

12-02-2008, 06:35 PM

Thank you for being so open.

What they said. :)

thelonious

12-02-2008, 06:48 PM

Heres a couple for ya:

I got the impression, that the freemasons beleived the knowing, or enlightened are meant to guide or lead humanity, is this true?

Freemasonry has its own government, which is calkled the Grand Lodge. Grand Lodge officials are democratically elected by the general membership for set terms, usually two years.

Freemasons believe that the only legitimate governments are those who govern by the consent of the people. It is hoped that such people are knowing and enlightened, but of course, that doesn't always turn out to be the case. That's why Masons believe, and have always practiced, elections. If we elect someone who turns out to be a goob, we can always fire them at the next election.

I had heard once, that the last few ranks of masonry where reserved for those with a negative agenda. Have u noticed any people being "held back"?

The ranks of Masonry, which designate Grand Lodge officials, are open to any Past Master of a Lodge within that jurisdiction. This means that before a Mason can be elected to hold a Grand Lodge office, he must first have served at least one term as Worshipful Master of his Lodge. This insures that he has has previously demonstrated leadership skills at the local level.

As for the degrees, in the United States, all Master Masons in good standing may apply for the Scottish Rite degrees 4° - 32°. However, in the York Rite, it is required that Masons confess the Christian faith in order to receive the three highest York Rite degrees (Order of the Red Cross, Order of Malta, and Order of Knights Templar) because they are of a Christian character.

Symbolism is a fantastic key IMO, and some of the mason symbols seem quite cool. Perhaps u could share something about one of these symbols for us?

Sure, I'm interested in symbolism too.

ninja17

12-02-2008, 07:06 PM

Thx lonios for the answers.You masons still scare the shit outta me:D;)

There are so many of you,everywhere.People with good names and influence.Participating together,no matter whut race and religion.

Thats actually the only thing personally whut i like about freemasonry,but this point on the other hand gives certain not-so-in-enlightement-interested lodges some power over the rest of the DIVERTED societies(especially on the global scale),dont you think?..

What they said.:)

That Freemasonry F***** ROCKS!
Like Quenn Tantrum!
;)

thelonious

12-02-2008, 07:16 PM

So being a 32nd degree Mason, does that mean you are almost at the top (I've read there are 33 degrees), and if so, when you compare with when you first started, how many more "secrets" do you know now than you did then?

There are 33 degrees in the Scottish Rite of Masonry. Other Masonic Rites have different numbers of degrees (for example, the York Rite has 12 degrees and the Swedish Rite has 10).

Only the Scottish and York Rites are used in the USA, so I'm a member of those two only.

To try to answer your question, each separate degree has its own traditionally "secrets", which consist of a few different passwords, signs or handshakes. In the Scottish Rite, because there are so many degrees, I don't think anyone really remembers them all.

The actual content of the degrees can be interesting. When I first became a Mason, I was told that the higher degrees can't make us more of a Mason than we already became in the Blue Lodge, but they can make us better Masons. I have found this to be true.

The first three degrees contain a *lot* of information, and there's not enough time in just 3 rituals to cover everything in depth. So they have to pass over some things with just a few words dedicated to it.

The higher degrees are actually elaborations on the first three, and provide the opportunity to take a closer and deeper look at some of the things just given quick mentions in the Blue Lodge degreees.

What does being a 32nd degree Mason actually mean within Freemasonary circles.

In the USA, it simply means that one is a full member of the Scottish Rite. Roughly half of all Masons in the United States are 32° members of the Scottish Rite.

This was due to the requirement, recently lifted, that one had to be either a 32° Scottish Rite member or Knight Templar in the York Rite in order to join the Shriners. There was a large influx of brothers who joined the Scottish Rite and took all the degrees just so they could qualify for Shrine membership.

Do you regret joining the Masons? If you had your time over again, would you still have joined?

Absolutely, I'm very active in the fraternity, and frequently visit other Lodges in my general area. It's probably not for everyone, but I personally enjoy it a lot, and have learned much from it.

How quickly did it take you to advance up the degrees, and does the process get harder as you progress? Are there exams you have to take, or is it simply a matter of time served equals another degree up the ladder?

In the USA, the candidate can advance through the degrees at his own pace, depending on his own personal schedule. In my jurisdiction, there is a minimum of one month waiting period between the degrees at the Blue Lodge level.

When a candidate receives his first, or Entered Apprentice, degree, he is "apprenticed" to a Master Mason whose job it is to teach him that degree, and its meaning. After 4 weeks have passed he is elible for the second degree, and same thing for the third degree. Once he receives the third degree, he is a full member of the fraternity with voting rights, and may hold any office in the Lodge except for Master (to be elected Master, it is required that he serve at least one term as a Warden previously).

After a becoming a Master Mason, there are no more waiting periods. If he desires to go into the Scottish Rite, he may apply for the 4th - 32nd degrees at the same time.

These degrees are usually given twice per year (in the spring and fall) at "Reunions", which usually last 2 weekends. The class (or group of candidates) are brought into the Scottish Rite Temple on a Friday evening, and the degrees are worked one right after the others.

My Scottish Rite Temple usually starts at the 4th degree on Friday and ends with the 11th degree. We meet again Saturday morning, begin with the 12th degree, and stop at the 18th.

The next Friday we start again, and end with the 32nd degree on Saturday afternoon. Later that night, we always have a banquet to honor the new 32° members and their wives.

The 33°, which is the highest degree in the Scottish Rite, is an honorary degree, and is conferred in recognition of outstanding service. The 33° makes the brother an honorary member of the Supreme Council, which is the administrative body for the Scottish Rite.

The York Rite is similar. Some York Rite Temples do all the degrees in one day, usually on a Saturday. Mine spreads it out over a few months, doing degrees in the evening on weekdays.

Are all the answers you are giving us truthful, or are they a misdirection?

They are true, but a lot of holds true only in the United States. Masonic organizations in other countries operate differently than what we do. For example, in the UK, only a small number of Masons hold the 32°, while in the USA, practically all Scottish Rite Masons are 32°. Another difference is that, in the UK, only Christian Masons can join the Scottish Rite, while in the USA, all Masons can join the Scottish Rite regardless of their religion.

As you are posting this on a web forum, does that give you more or less recourse to be more open with what you can say and not fear the reprocussions of "divulging secrets", or do you still uphold the Masonic creed which is essentially "tell our secrets and suffer the punishments" ?

As a Mason, of course, I have promised not to reveal the secrets of Masonry, and will keep that promise. Not because I fear any punishment, but simply because I gave my word on my honor.

But the secrets of the fraternity are generally not very important in the grand scheme of things; all fraternities have secret passwords and handshakes. These are probably the least important thing about them, and the same thing can be said of Freemasonry.

Throughout Freemasonry's history, many learned Masonic scholars have written very good books on the subject. None of them have revealed the secret handshakes, but have discussed everything else in great detail.

eternal_spirit

12-02-2008, 09:30 PM

Life begins at 40, what do you think this means?

thelonious

12-02-2008, 09:41 PM

Life begins at 40, what do you think this means?

lol...I don't know, but whatever it means, I still don't believe it!

eternal_spirit

12-02-2008, 10:02 PM

lol...I don't know, but whatever it means, I still don't believe it!

...............................................

:D Its not what you think it means.
I'll answer the question with a question. Is the highest degree in the OTO 90 degree?

serpentoffire

12-02-2008, 10:08 PM

Life begins at 40, what do you think this means?

I don't know but I'm agree.
(I'm 39 :D)

eternal_spirit

12-02-2008, 10:22 PM

I don't know but I'm agree.
(I'm 39 :D)

..........................

:D I'm not far behind :( Okay, the answer "life begins at 40", means, that's when you've reached the 40th degree, then you're in with the higher levels of Masonry, in with the movers and shakers "the big boys", don't know what the recommendations or qualities are to reach this level.

:)

thelonious

12-02-2008, 10:31 PM

...............................................

:D Its not what you think it means.
I'll answer the question with a question. Is the highest degree in the OTO 90 degree?

No, OTO has 9 regular degrees, with a 10th administrative degree, and an "outside the order" 11th degree. The current Grand Master of the OTO has apparently added a new "12th degree" to OTO, because he's now signing his papers as 12th degree.

The 90th degree system was the Egyptian Rite of Mitzraim, which was a Masonic Rite that flourished in continental Europe in the 19th century. The Rite was never fully consolidated, and many Masons considered it bogus. Its first 33 degrees were the same as the irregular Cerneau Rite; the degrees 34th and up were never completely worked out. The Grand Orient of France tabled the Rite, and other Grand Lodges soon followed suit.

Crowley was given a patent of the 90th degree in the Mitzraim Rite by John Yarker, and attempted to use it as a type of authority in OTO. In Crowley's version of the OTO rituals, the candidates are given those degrees by proclamation in the course of receiving their OTO degrees in ceremonial form.

The OTO has recently revised all their rituals, so I don't know if they still do that, or if they have eliminated reference to them.

eternal_spirit

12-02-2008, 10:57 PM

asentinel

13-02-2008, 09:25 AM

Why is it a strictly male organisation. Is there a homoerotic connection, a homosexual link to the higher degrees? What about race discrimination? Are any dark skinned males involved in the higher degrees.

With regard to the 9 degrees, is it linked to "the nine" principles, "nine angels" and other expressions of that concept. (The nine together to appear as a 10th principle.) Does 12 degrees have anything to do with activation of dna strands?

ninja17

13-02-2008, 12:22 PM

Is it true that the name of the holy absolute and pure "ghost" to which Salomons Tempel was destined is just allowed to be said once a year by a high priest?Which name are you using?

Would you consider the option that freemasonry is a sun-"cult"?

Do you consider the world outside the temple as "profan"?

Whut is your stand on the age of aquarius?

thelonious

13-02-2008, 03:42 PM

Good answer. Another question...If the Bible in the Lodges used is Old Testament, doesn't that mean Masonry is based more on Judaism rather than Christianity which has more to do with the New Testament? Hence some of the symbols Solomon's seal aka Star of David aka Hexagram.

In the United States, the King James Version of the Bible (both Old and New Testament) is used in the Lodge; I think this holds true for the UK, Australia, and Canada as well.

The ritual of the Blue Lodge degrees is based around Old Testament stories concerning the building of the Temple at Jerusalem during the reign of Solomon, but the higher degrees use New Testament symbolism and stories as well, as well as legends from other religions and philosophical systems. For example, the Order of Malta in the York Rite is based upon the Acts of the Apostles, and the 26° in the Scottish Rite is based on the Sufis, who are Islamic mystics.

thelonious

13-02-2008, 03:56 PM

Why is it a strictly male organisation.

Technically, Freemasonry is a fraternity. Fraternities admit only males, just as sororities admit only females.

Is there a homoerotic connection, a homosexual link to the higher degrees?

Not in Masonry, but there is a homosexual degree in the OTO (XI°). The OTO is structured similar to Freemasonry, but its primary focus is certain forms of tantric sex magic. Aleister Crowley, who was bisexual, instituted the XI° OTO to study homosexual sex magic, while the IX° is heterosexual. Since all the current leaders of OTO are heterosexual, I'm not sure what place, if any, the XI° has in the current OTO system (and, almost ironically, OTO admits both men and women).

What about race discrimination? Are any dark skinned males involved in the higher degrees.

Freemasonry's ideals have always stood for equality between all people. Unfortunately, some Masons have not lived up to those ideals, and there has been a history of racial discrimination in some Masonic Lodges. One of my personal criticisms of Freemasonry is that the society should have led the way to racial harmony, which it did not. However, I do not blame Freemasonry itself, but only those individual Masons who ignored Freemasonry's teachings.

Nevertheless, race discrimination is quickly disappearing in US Lodges. Older members who grew up during segregation are passing on, and are being replaced by younger members who grew up going to school, and making friends, with people of all races. Within the next 10 years, I expect all Lodges in the US to be integrated.

To answer your question, yes, all Master Masons in good standing are eligible for the higher degrees, regardless of race, creed, or religion. Black Masons who have held high degrees are jazz composer Duke Ellington (33°, K.T.), the first black US Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall (33°), and civil rights activist and Baptist minister Rev. Medger Evers (33°, K.T.).

With regard to the 9 degrees, is it linked to "the nine" principles, "nine angels" and other expressions of that concept. (The nine together to appear as a 10th principle.) Does 12 degrees have anything to do with activation of dna strands?

I don't think so; I'm not a member of the OTO, so I can't speak with any type of authority on it. I've read Crowley's writings on the subject, and he seemed to think the degree structure of OTO was based on the Bavarian Illuminati, who also had 10 degrees. Crowley himself added the 11th, and the 12th seems to have been added by the current Caliph, but I don't know what their 12th degree consists of as it was not a part of Crowley's OTO system.

zero1

14-02-2008, 10:11 PM

At the request of forum member Paganus, I'm starting an "Ask A Mason" thread. I'll try to address each and every question and post, just give me a little extra time to respond if there are a lot of relpies.

I welcome the opportunity to speak with any all people on the subject regardless of your personal opinions of Freemasonry, let's just please keep it polite and civil.

Thanks!

Do you see any Masonic symbolism or doctrine (exoteric or esoteric) veiled in the allegory of the Matrix movies/franchise?

If so, what Masonically do the characters Neo, Morpheus, Trinity and Agent Smith represent?

carlperkins

15-02-2008, 12:01 AM

Hi Thelonious
Are you a Theloniuos Monk fan? I remember a wise man telling me about him saying the word "Monk" was an upside down Know as in Knowledge. I think he wore a ring (on his finger) that portrayed that. I love Bird, Django, Milton, Levi, Carl, Cash, Lennon etc....

Your American? Im UK. I'm not a Mason but I've been around.

I used to lunch regularly (as a carpenter at his home) with a high ranking Mason, I'm sure he politely lied to me once in conversation. He said he'd never heard of the word "Gnostic", but then explained to me the meaning of the word "Agnostic" leading me to the obvious.... The letter G in masonry is important is it?

What do you think of the implied accusations on the MM threads on this site with the possible involvement with masons and templars? These have been the most popular forum threads, what do you think?

Who do you think was responsible for 911? Do you think the Bush government were involved? Do you think Bush lies? Is he a Mason?

I used to go to the Notting Hill Carnival and remember seeing policemen escorting some of the floats, getting so obviosly drunk, so obviously enjoying themselves, so desperately trying to fit in. Young kids pretending to be drunk and being "with it". Sorry, but in a way, your presence here reminds me of that (with your answers). Its all a bit "nice" and "text book". Do you have masonic friends that monitor your comments here? Are you an errand boy?

Have you read a David Icke book yet?

I think you being here is cool, thanks for it. Buy me a beer if we meet!

thelonious

15-02-2008, 04:15 PM

Do you see any Masonic symbolism or doctrine (exoteric or esoteric) veiled in the allegory of the Matrix movies/franchise?

If so, what Masonically do the characters Neo, Morpheus, Trinity and Agent Smith represent?

Great question!

The Wachowski brothers, who created "The Matrix" films, are not Masons, but both are members of the Ordo Templi Orientis (O.T.O.), a non-Masonic occult rite founded in 1899 in Germany. The Order became popular in the 1920's under the leadership of the controversial British author, poet, adventurer, and social critic Aleister Crowley. Today's O.T.O. is composed entirely of students of Crowley's voluminous work.

The Matrix films contain much occult symbolism. The Free Zone is "Zion", symbolic language for a homeland for God's chosen. The ship is Osiris, the solar deity slain to secure salvation for his children, and resurrected in glory. In one of the films, the letters "OTO" can be seen inscribed on a truck during the motorcycle chase scene.

Neo represents the illuminated man, the Initiate. He struggles in the first film to cast off his pre-conditioning in the profane world, which he begins to realize was illusionary. In the end, he has mastered his mind through self-discipline and virtue, and becomes an Adept, one who has proven himself worthy to direct the forces of nature.

Mozart's opera Die Zauberflote, or "The Magic Flute", contains similar symbolism.

thelonious

15-02-2008, 04:50 PM

Hi Thelonious
Are you a Theloniuos Monk fan?

Yes, I'm sort of a jazz fanatic, and Monk is my favorite composer.

I love Bird, Django, Milton, Levi, Carl, Cash, Lennon etc....

Likewise, as well as Duke, Dizzy, and Basie. They don't make them like that anymore.

Your American? Im UK. I'm not a Mason but I've been around.

Yes, USA.

I used to lunch regularly (as a carpenter at his home) with a high ranking Mason, I'm sure he politely lied to me once in conversation. He said he'd never heard of the word "Gnostic", but then explained to me the meaning of the word "Agnostic" leading me to the obvious....

It is possible that someone would know what "agnostic" means, and not know "Gnostic", since "agnostic" is used much more commonly. Of course, "gnostic" is the root of "agnostic"; since "Gnostic" means "one who knows", "agnostic" literally means "one who does not know". But I doubt the majority of people know that technicality, but still use "agnostic" to describe some people.

The letter G in masonry is important is it?

It is.

What do you think of the implied accusations on the MM threads on this site with the possible involvement with masons and templars? These have been the most popular forum threads, what do you think?

After much research and study, I have come to the conclusion that there was no particular connection between the two orders historically. Practically all modern historians, both Masonic and non-Masonic, have also reached that conclusion. I say that because of the following:

The Templar-Masonic connection theory has it that fugitive Templars escaped to Scotland, joined forces with Robert the Bruce, and established Freemasonry there.

Some Masons have also taken that view. The two greatest American Masonic philosophers of the 19th century, Dr. Albert G. Mackey and Gen. Albert Pike, were both absolutely convinced that the Templar-Masonic connection was real until late in their lives, when Gould published his "History of Freemasonry". Gould's book was so important that it caused Pike to retract much of what he had written in "Morals and Dogma".

Gould's discoveries came through the careful study of Lodge histories and meeting minutes dating back centuries. Since Pike and Mackey were Americans, they did not have access to these documents of the English Lodges, so they drew their conclusions from conjecture.

The general theory now is that Templary was first introduced into Masonry in the mid-1700's in France by followers of the Chevalier Andrew Ramsay. In England, Freemasonry was primarily a society composed of commoners; when Freemasonry was introduced into France, however, it became a club for the nobility.

Apparently, the French nobility loved Freemasonry, but didn't like the idea of their club having originated with commoners and laborers. Ramsay gave a famous speech in Paris indicating that Freemasonry really didn't come from the English stonemasons, but originated instead with medieval orders of chivalry (although he didn't mention the Templars specifically). Nevertheless, as soon as Ramsay's speech was published, new Templar degrees began popping up all over France. It at least seems as if the Masonic-Templar connection was therefore based on Ramsay's myth. For the English Lodge records clearly show that the order originated with medieval craftsmen in the stonemason guilds.

Who do you think was responsible for 911? Do you think the Bush government were involved? Do you think Bush lies? Is he a Mason?

I was opposed to George W. Bush 7 years ago when he first ran for president, and I remain opposed to him. Yes, I consider him a liar.

I do not think the Bush administration was involved in 9/11. However, I believe the Bush administration to be extremely incompetent, and I have no doubt that they have covered up a lot of evidence to protect themselves from further exposure to incompetency. I have no real doubts that fundamentalist Islamic terrorists were behind it; they've been trying to do something like that for a long time, and in the 1980's, a ring of Islamic terrorists who were planning to blow up the WTC was infiltrated and arrested.

But I also know that Bush did not take the threat very seriously, and then has selfishly used the attack for his own personal consolidation of power.

Bush is not a Mason. 15 Presidents of the United States have been Masons, the last one being Gerald R. Ford.

Sorry, but in a way, your presence here reminds me of that (with your answers). Its all a bit "nice" and "text book". Do you have masonic friends that monitor your comments here? Are you an errand boy?

No, I was talking about Freemasonry on another thread, and Paganus asked me to start a Freemasonry Q&A.

Have you read a David Icke book yet?

No, I've only seen televised interviews with him.

I think you being here is cool, thanks for it. Buy me a beer if we meet!

Will do!

carlperkins

15-02-2008, 06:59 PM

Thanks for your answers! I may read more about masons and come back to you.

serpentoffire

15-02-2008, 08:37 PM

Great question!

The Wachowski brothers, who created "The Matrix" films, are not Masons, but both are members of the Ordo Templi Orientis (O.T.O.), a non-Masonic occult rite founded in 1899 in Germany. The Order became popular in the 1920's under the leadership of the controversial British author, poet, adventurer, and social critic Aleister Crowley. Today's O.T.O. is composed entirely of students of Crowley's voluminous work.

The Matrix films contain much occult symbolism. The Free Zone is "Zion", symbolic language for a homeland for God's chosen. The ship is Osiris, the solar deity slain to secure salvation for his children, and resurrected in glory. In one of the films, the letters "OTO" can be seen inscribed on a truck during the motorcycle chase scene.

Neo represents the illuminated man, the Initiate. He struggles in the first film to cast off his pre-conditioning in the profane world, which he begins to realize was illusionary. In the end, he has mastered his mind through self-discipline and virtue, and becomes an Adept, one who has proven himself worthy to direct the forces of nature.

Mozart's opera Die Zauberflote, or "The Magic Flute", contains similar symbolism.

I have a little different interpretation about "The Matrix"

The movies "The matrix" is a metaphor to be interpreted in reverse mode:
Neo, Mopheus and Trinity are anomalies for "the matrix", like gifted people (mediums) are anomalies for humanity because have a modified DNA
the real world outside "the matrix" is our hell. In fact, the hell is inside the earth.
Zion is the place where demons live, waiting to escape from the inner earth.
the simulated world of "the matrix" is our real (and illusory) world
Agents and octopusesare guardian angels in both worlds
Neo, Mopheus and Trinity are demons that are prevented by guardian angels to reach the outer atmosphere of earth
In "the matrix", sun is obscured by ancient humans. This can be translated in "God's light is obscured to demons"
"The Architect" of "the matrix" can be translated to the freemason's Great Architect of Universe that it is in reality Lucifer.
Cyclically the hell (Zion) and all demons are destroyed by God's angels.
Neo is the antichrist, the new messiah long waited by jewish, freemasons and satanists. The antichrist should free all demons to escape from earth.
Humans are used by angels and demons, through body possession, to interact with normal people, exactly the inverse of what happen in "the matrix"

serpentoffire

15-02-2008, 08:40 PM

Which are the egregories worshiped/recalled in your lodge?

zero1

15-02-2008, 11:28 PM

Great question!

The Wachowski brothers, who created "The Matrix" films, are not Masons, but both are members of the Ordo Templi Orientis (O.T.O.), a non-Masonic occult rite founded in 1899 in Germany. The Order became popular in the 1920's under the leadership of the controversial British author, poet, adventurer, and social critic Aleister Crowley. Today's O.T.O. is composed entirely of students of Crowley's voluminous work.

The Matrix films contain much occult symbolism. The Free Zone is "Zion", symbolic language for a homeland for God's chosen. The ship is Osiris, the solar deity slain to secure salvation for his children, and resurrected in glory. In one of the films, the letters "OTO" can be seen inscribed on a truck during the motorcycle chase scene.

Neo represents the illuminated man, the Initiate. He struggles in the first film to cast off his pre-conditioning in the profane world, which he begins to realize was illusionary. In the end, he has mastered his mind through self-discipline and virtue, and becomes an Adept, one who has proven himself worthy to direct the forces of nature.

Mozart's opera Die Zauberflote, or "The Magic Flute", contains similar symbolism.

Hmm, thanks for that.

Not sure you're right about Ordo Templi Orientis being non-Masonic in present times, but I guess I'll have to accept your word on it, as you're "in the know". :) Crowley, its founder, was a Mason, along with his similarly occult-friendly buddies Jack Parsons and L. Ron Hubbard.

Also, you didn't elabourate about the other 3 characters I mentioned.

And...the ship the heroes have in the movies is not the Osiris, that was a minor vessel in the videogame Enter The Matrix, not the movies.

Finally, isn't "Free Zone" a Scientology sub-sect, a breakaway from the Church and it's parent company, the Religious Technology Centre? I've never heard the Masons use this expression. Not saying they don't, but...

Might I ask, what degree of Mason do you claim to be?

Because with the height of respect, your knowlege seems incomplete and possibly bogus.

edelweiss pirate

16-02-2008, 12:28 AM

I have a little different interpretation about "The Matrix"

the simulated world of "the matrix" is our real (and illusory) world
Agents and octopusesare guardian angels in both worlds
Neo, Mopheus and Trinity are demons that are prevented by guardian angels to reach the outer atmosphere of earth[/LIST]

Yep... Once you escape the matrix into the 'desert of the real' it's a bit like hell......

But it's not inside the earth. It's perceptual. It's all around us... potentially.

However what that mason Theolonius is on about makes sense to me.

I suppose I must be an adept then. Oh well. I'm not a mason tho, been invited to join.... but don't think it's a good idea.

What do you think Theolonious?

chris

16-02-2008, 11:28 AM

Dear Thelonious.

Welcome to our forum. It is good to have diverse angles and takes on “Reali’y” as David calls it.

I have one question right now but a few will probably follow up that will be much more occult based but I think I’ll keep it short and sweet for now.

Firstly since you have voiced your opinion on 9/11, I was just wondering what evidence you back your opinion upon…Are you well versed in all sides of the debate over 9/11?

There is really too much evidence to site quickly but a film that seems to compact many contradictions (yet still a tiny proportion) in the official story is Terrorstorm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dYWP9AOGBo

I’m sure your familiar with most of these arguments so I was wondering if you could respond to the content of the film, in particularly…

Steven Jones research.
The BBC announcing WTC7 fell 20 minutes before.
Norman Monetas testimony to the 9/11 commission regarding the acts of Dick Cheney during the attacks.
Bush and Condi saying no one had ever thought about a potential airline attack on the WTC’s.
The great struggle by the victims families to get an independent 9/11 commission and how most of their questions put towards the heads, went unanswered.
The medias aversion to anything that questions the official story which automatically puts them into ad homonin mode.

Although there are a lot of nuts on this forum most of us are here simply because we want answers and although we steadfastly sit on the fence, we are constantly being ushered by the Mainstream Media into the loony bin with all the other fruitcakes. Why is this?

thetonic

17-02-2008, 08:01 PM

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh16/thetonic/allseeingeyeqe3dred.pnghttp://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh16/thetonic/MASONRYENCYv1p33.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh210/rebel_soldier/rebel_soldier2/MASONRYENCYv1p3.jpghttp://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8451/allseeingeyeqe3.png

As above so below.. double speaking twackers!

coshh

17-02-2008, 09:00 PM

The whole French Revolution/American Revolution connection is true isn't it? In that case is there a specific "enlightenment era values" agenda to masonry and is any such agenda shared by most members or is it more of a background thing these days?

Also is there any metaphysical reason for the exclusion of females (I know you said earlier because its a "frater"nity but obviously that's just saying what it is not why) or is it just social/historical?

kweli

18-02-2008, 01:10 AM

_invisibleplane_

18-02-2008, 05:46 AM

Hello, I would really appreciate some insight on the following questions

1) What are your thoughts on Marko Rodin and his universal mathematical formula based on the power of 9 that much of the natural world follows?
http://www.rodinmath.com
his logo
http://markorodin.com/celtic_fingerprint_reverb.jpg
http://thumbnail.search.aolcdn.com/truveo/images/thumbnails/B8/3A/B83A5AA860FF3D.jpg
http://www.aot.state.vt.us/dmv/images/PLATES/SpecialPlates/FreemasonLogo.jpg

2) Are you aware of any connections between the skull and bones society and masonry?

3) What are your thoughts on the significance of the Pleiades star system in masonry in relation to the pictures below?

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/images/first%20degree%20tracing%20star%20map..jpghttp://www.thehiddenrecords.com/images/chronology-freemason-first-.jpg
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/forbidden_starmap.htm

4) What are your interpretations of the painting done by murder victim Sarah Payne before her death in 2001?

http://ellisctaylor.homestead.com/files/Sarah_s_Painting.jpg

Where do we find black and white checkerboard floors, the number 13 and two columns? The man appears to have only one sleeve. Why is that? Sarah has gone to considerable effort to 'stud' the apron. The preciseness of the rest of the painting suggests that the sleeve is supposed to be missing.

thelonious

18-02-2008, 05:01 PM

Hmm, thanks for that.

Not sure you're right about Ordo Templi Orientis being non-Masonic in present times, but I guess I'll have to accept your word on it, as you're "in the know". :)

O.T.O. is certainly based on Freemasonry, especially the Rites of Memphis and Mitzraim. However, the O.T.O. is an independent fraternal and religious society. O.T.O. members can become Masons and vice versa, but they are two separate organizations with similar structures.

Crowley, its founder, was a Mason, along with his similarly occult-friendly buddies Jack Parsons and L. Ron Hubbard.

Actually, Crowley didn't found the O.T.O.; he became a member in 1912. The O.T.O. was founded by Theodore Reuss in 1899. Reuss appointed Crowley Grand Master of the OTO in England, and Crowley became international Grand Master when Reuss resigned the position for health reasons around 1922.

There is controversy surrounding Crowley's involvement in Freemasonry, although it si mostly just a technicality. Crowley received the three degrees of Ancient Craft Masonry in Anglo-Saxon Lodge in Paris, which was an English-speaking Lodge, in 1904. That Lodge was under jurisdiction of the Grand Loge de France, which was not recognized as legitimate by the United Grand Lodge of England or the Grand Lodges in the USA.

He later received the additional degrees of the Cerneau Rite (which was an illegitimate version of the Scottish Rite) as well as the irregular degrees of the Rites of Memphis and Mitzraim, all from John Yarker in England. Yarker was a legitimate Mason up to the third degree, but his additional degrees were not recognized as legit.

Crowley himself understood the predicament, and therefore focused his attention on the OTO instead of Freemasonry.

Hubbard and Parson, however, were never Masons. Parsons was initiated into the Agape Lodge of the OTO in LA, eventually becoming lodge master. He received the OTO's IX° from Crowley himself, and held a lot of authority in that organization for a brief time. Hubbard never joined the OTO, but did OTO magical work with Parson, which was denounced by Crowley. Crowley warned Parsons to break all ties with Hubbard; he did not follow Crolwey's advice, and was scammed out of a large sum of money by Hubbard.

Also, you didn't elabourate about the other 3 characters I mentioned.

Sorry I missed it, I'll have to back and look.

And...the ship the heroes have in the movies is not the Osiris, that was a minor vessel in the videogame Enter The Matrix, not the movies.

Ah ok. I had read a brief summary, and thought it was in the movie.

Finally, isn't "Free Zone" a Scientology sub-sect, a breakaway from the Church and it's parent company, the Religious Technology Centre? I've never heard the Masons use this expression. Not saying they don't, but...

Actually, it was just the term that occured to me when thinking about their version of "Zion". I don't know much about Scientology, but I got the term from William Burroughs, who used it in "Naked Lunch" and other novels. I know that Burroughs studied Scientology for a brief time, perhaps he got it there?

Might I ask, what degree of Mason do you claim to be?

I am a Master Mason and Past Master in my Lodge. I am a 32° member of the Scottish Rite, and a Royal Arch Mason and knight Templar in the York Rite. I am also a Shriner, a Tall Cedar of Lebanon, and belong to various other Masonic bodies.

Because with the height of respect, your knowlege seems incomplete and possibly bogus.

I have spent over ten years in the serious historical and philosophical study of Freemasonry; I am a frequent speaker on these same subjects at Masonic meetings, and have published articles on them in various Masonic research journals over the years. I simply do research, take notes on what I find, and publish them.

There are many other modern Masonic scholars, most of them much more knowledgable and scholarly than myself. They have generally reached the same conclusions as I.

thelonious

18-02-2008, 05:03 PM

Yep... Once you escape the matrix into the 'desert of the real' it's a bit like hell......

But it's not inside the earth. It's perceptual. It's all around us... potentially.

I think I agree, at least for the most part.

However what that mason Theolonius is on about makes sense to me.

I suppose I must be an adept then. Oh well. I'm not a mason tho, been invited to join.... but don't think it's a good idea.

What do you think Theolonious?

One does not have to be a member of a fraternal order to be an Adept. It's more of a process of awakening. The Buddha, for example, awakened without any outside help, or being an an initiate. I would say just do what works for you personally, because in the end, that's all that really counts.

thelonious

18-02-2008, 05:09 PM

The whole French Revolution/American Revolution connection is true isn't it? In that case is there a specific "enlightenment era values" agenda to masonry and is any such agenda shared by most members or is it more of a background thing these days?

I would say that the revolution thing is both true and not true, depending on how you interpret it. In both wars, there were Masons on both sides. So the actual organization of Freemasonry didn't really have anything to do with it.

But if you ignore the organization for a moment, and look at the ideas behind it, then yes, those ideas had a lot of influence.

Concerning your last question, unfortunately, it does seem to be more of a background these days. The majority of Masons probably do not understand the fraternity's link to the Enlightenment.

Also is there any metaphysical reason for the exclusion of females (I know you said earlier because its a "frater"nity but obviously that's just saying what it is not why) or is it just social/historical?

I know of no metaphysical reason, and consider it historical.

The only possible metaphysical reason would be if one considers Freemasonry to be a continuation of Osirian mysteries. This argument may be valid, but it wouldn't explain why there are sororities that only admit females. Different people have different opinions on this, so it's hard to say.

thelonious

18-02-2008, 05:15 PM

Thanks OP, this is a very interesting thread. :)

Have you read The Brotherhood - The Secret World of the Freemasons? If so, what's your critique of it? And what's your take on the numerous allegations of corruption within the Police force?

Yes, I have read, but it's been a long time, so I have to go from memory.

The book is a critique of Freemasonry in the UK if I remember correctly. I first have to say that I'm in the USA, have never been in the UK, and have no first hand experience of British Masonry. The closest I've come is having a few brothers from Scotland visit my Lodge several years ago.

However, I have online friends who are British Masons, several of whom I've known for a long time. I've never met them face to face, but have came to trust them over time. They all indicate that the stories of corruption are not true, and they are being singled out for persecution.

Again, I can't say one way or the other because I'm not British, but I hope the British people will look at actual evidence instead of going on a witch hunt.

As for Knight's book, he attempted to tie the Ripper murders to Freemasonry, among other things. It was clear to me that he had an agenda, and was willing to grasp at straws and ignore historical facts in order to further it.

damagedbrainn

19-02-2008, 12:05 AM

Why do Freemasons bar woman from direct involvement or from learning the deeper "secrets" of the Masonic philosophy? And how is it possible to view this as anything other than a belief in male superiority over women?

(And Co-Freemasonry doesn't count, since it isn't officially recognized by any major Masonic body due solely to the fact that they allow women to join.)

thelonious

19-02-2008, 04:22 PM

Why do Freemasons bar woman from direct involvement or from learning the deeper "secrets" of the Masonic philosophy? And how is it possible to view this as anything other than a belief in male superiority over women?

Masonic philosophy is not secret, and is accessible to all. Over the last three centuries, large numbers of Masonic scholars and thinkers have published various views on Masonic philosophy, all of which are available to the public.

The secrets of Freemasonry consist of traditional modes of recognition that came from the middle ages (certain handshakes, passwords, etc.). The secrets are, in reality, the least interesting thing about Freemasonry.

There is no belief in Freemasonry that males are superior to females, and Freemasonry supports the right of women to form and congregate in all-female sororities. In like manner, we do not believe that sorority members consider themsleves superior men just because they belong to all-female organizations.

_invisibleplane_

04-03-2008, 09:28 PM

hi thelonius, you never replied to any of my questions/enquiries, I would really like your honest insight, thanks

Hello, I would really appreciate some insight on the following questions

1) What are your thoughts on Marko Rodin and his universal mathematical formula based on the power of 9 that much of the natural world follows?
http://www.rodinmath.com
his logo
http://markorodin.com/celtic_fingerprint_reverb.jpg
http://thumbnail.search.aolcdn.com/truveo/images/thumbnails/B8/3A/B83A5AA860FF3D.jpg
http://www.aot.state.vt.us/dmv/images/PLATES/SpecialPlates/FreemasonLogo.jpg

2) Are you aware of any connections between the skull and bones society and masonry?

3) What are your thoughts on the significance of the Pleiades star system in masonry in relation to the pictures below?

http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/images/first%20degree%20tracing%20star%20map..jpghttp://www.thehiddenrecords.com/images/chronology-freemason-first-.jpg
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/forbidden_starmap.htm

4) What are your interpretations of the painting done by murder victim Sarah Payne before her death in 2001?

http://ellisctaylor.homestead.com/files/Sarah_s_Painting.jpg

thelonious

05-03-2008, 04:07 PM

hi thelonius, you never replied to any of my questions/enquiries, I would really like your honest insight, thanks

Sorry, I think I missed your earlier post.

Marko Rodin:

I'm not familiar with him or his work. Obviously, his logo resembles a Masonic symbol, but IMO, this is only coincidence.

Skull and Bones and Freemasonry:

There's no actual relationship between the two organizations, but some people have been members of both. Teddy Roosevelt comes to mind, who was both a Mason and a Bonesman.

The Pleiades:

Some Masonic scholars of the mystical school of Freemasonry have given importance to ancient speculation on the Pleiades, and its influence on religious and philosophical thought, which in turn influenced Freemasonry. Especially Pike, who considered Freemasonry to be a continuation of the Magian Adeptship, with the Magi having been very learned in astronomy. I have not studied the subject in depth, but if you're interested in Pike's views, I would recommend his "Lectures On The Irano-Aryans".

Sarah Payne:

Sorry, but again I'm not familiar with her story. My interpretation just at a glance is a self-portrait standing beside her bed.

The bedsheet is a black and white checkerboard, similar to the mosaic pavement used in some Lodges, but I don't think it was inspired by Freemasonry.

ninja17

05-03-2008, 06:23 PM

thelonious,

I hope i didnt offend you with my questions.That was not my intention...

Just skip them again if you dont want to answer..

Is it true that the name of the holy absolute and pure "ghost" to which Salomons Tempel was destined is just allowed to be said once a year by a high priest?Which name are you using?

Would you consider the option that freemasonry is a sun-"cult"?

Do you consider the world outside the temple as "profan"?

Whut is your stand on the age of aquarius?

pce

thelonious

05-03-2008, 07:25 PM

thelonious,

I hope i didnt offend you with my questions.That was not my intention...

Just skip them again if you dont want to answer..

No offense, and apparently I missed your earlier as post as well.

Is it true that the name of the holy absolute and pure "ghost" to which Salomons Tempel was destined is just allowed to be said once a year by a high priest?Which name are you using?

Yes, but that practice belonged to the ancient Jews, not the Freemasons. The name they used, in Hebrew, consisted of 4 consonants, the letters Yod, Heh, Vah, and Heh. This is roughly transliterated into English as IHVH. Today, no one really knows how that name was originally pronounced. In the King James Version of the Bible, the translators threw a couple of vowels in and made it "Jehovah". Others have suggested it should be pronounced more like "Yahweh" or "Yahwuh".

Would you consider the option that freemasonry is a sun-"cult"?

Yes, I have considered that. Freemasonry uses a lot of symbolism and ritual similar to the solar cults of antiquity. But just to be precise, I also consider Christianity a modern sun cult. I'm using "cult" in the original sense of "organized gathering based on religious ideas", and not in the modern negative sense.

Do you consider the world outside the temple as "profan"?

Technically, the word "profane" comes from the Latin "profanus", meaning "outside of the temple". In this strict sense, it simply means one who has not been initiated.

The word is sort of archaic and is not used much in Masonry any more. But if you read older Masonic books, and see the author mention "the profane", he is not trying to disrespect anyone or imply that anyone is bad, but is simply talking about those not initiated, i.e., "outside the temple".

Whut is your stand on the age of aquarius?

I think that we are constantly evolving, both as individuals and as a race. Whether or not the ages and aeons are myths, or are real transitional periods in our evolutionary development, I do not know. But even if they are imaginary, an age of peace, tranquility, and spiritual insight is still a noble goal.

ichi wa zen

06-03-2008, 06:03 PM

You seem to know much useless trivial knowledge Theolonius. You should play on Jeopardy, you be sure to win.

Want to become a wise old man?

Burn your books right now........oww and STOP WORSHIPPING LUCIFER YOU PAGAN!

paganus

06-03-2008, 09:13 PM

bigus_dickus

07-03-2008, 12:26 AM

But just to be precise, I also consider Christianity a modern sun cult. I'm using "cult" in the original sense of "organized gathering based on religious ideas", and not in the modern negative sense.

maybe modern christian freemasons belong to a modern sun cult, which they call Christianity, but orthodoxy thinks that freemasons are heretics and idolaters. in Greece, i was never taught by Christians about worshiping any Sun, or anything about the Sun other than science and life can show me. of course, i don't want to claim that Greek eastern orthodox Christianity is the original one and the others are fake, because there is a lot of drama behind it, but that what you stated above can only stand for certain denominations.

--

The Official Statement
http://freemasonrywatch.org/orthodox.html

The Bishops of the Church of Greece in their session of October 12, 1933, concerned themselves with the study and examination of the secret international organization, Freemasonry. They heard with attention the introductory exposition of the Commission of four Bishops appointed by the Holy Synod at its last session; also the opinion of the Theological Faculty of the University of Athens, and the particular opinion of Prof. Panag Bratsiotis which was appended thereto. They also took into consideration publications on this question in Greece and abroad. After a discussion they arrived at the following conclusions, accepted unanimously by all the Bishops.

"Freemasonry is not simply a philanthropic union or a philosophical school, but constitutes a mystagogical system which reminds us of the ancient heathen mystery-religions and cults—from which it descends and is their continuation and regeneration. This is not only admitted by prominent teachers in the lodges, but they declare it with pride, affirming literally: "Freemasonry is the only survival of the ancient mysteries and can be called the guardian of them;" Freemasonry is a direct offspring of the Egyptian mysteries; "the humble workshop of the Masonic Lodge is nothing else than the caves and the darkness of the cedars of India and the unknown depths of the Pyramids and the crypts of the magnificent temples of Isis; in the Greek mysteries of Freemasonry, having passed along the luminous roads of knowledge under the mysteriarchs Prometheus, Dionysus and Orpheus, formulated the eternal laws of the Universe!

"Such a link between Freemasonry and the ancient idolatrous mysteries is also manifested by all that is enacted and performed at the initiations. As in the rites of the ancient idolatrous mysteries the drama of the labors and death of the mystery god was repeated, and in the imitative repetition of this drama the initiate dies together with the patron of the mystery religion, who was always a mythical person symbolizing the Sun of nature which dies in winter and is regenerated in spring, so it is also, in the initiation of the third degree, of the patron of Freemasonry Hiram and a kind of repetition of his death, in which the initiate suffers with him, struck by the same instruments and on the same parts of the body as Hiram. According to the confession of a prominent teacher of Freemasonry Hiram is "as Osiris, as Mithra, and as Bacchus, one of the personifications of the Sun."

"Thus Freemasonry is, as granted, a mystery-religion, quite different, separate, and alien to the Christian faith. This is shown without any doubt by the fact that it possesses its own temples with altars, which are characterized by prominent teachers as "workshops which cannot have less history and holiness than the Church" and as temples of virtue and wisdom where the Supreme Being is worshipped and the truth is taught. It possesses its own religious ceremonies, such as the ceremony of adoption or the masonic baptism, the ceremony of conjugal acknowledgement or the masonic marriage, the masonic memorial service, the consecration of the masonic temple, and so on. It possesses its own initiations, its own ceremonial ritual, its own hierarchical order and a definite discipline. As may be concluded from the masonic agapes and from the feasting of the winter and summer solstices with religious meals and general rejoicings, it is a physiolatric religion.

"It is true that it may seem at first that Freemasonry can be reconciled with every other religion, because it is not interested directly in the religion to which its initiates belong. This is, however, explained by its syncretistic character and proves that in this point also it is an offspring and a continuation of ancient idolatrous mysteries which accepted for initiation worshippers of all gods. But as the mystery religions, in spite of the apparent spirit of tolerance and acceptance of foreign gods, lead to a syncretism which undermined and gradually shook confidence in other religions, thus Freemasonry today, which seeks to embrace in itself gradually all mankind and which promises to give moral perfection and knowledge of truth, is lifting itself to the position of a kind of super-religion, looking on all religions (without excepting Christianity) as inferior to itself. Thus it develops in its initiates the idea that only in masonic lodges is performed the shaping and the smoothing of the unsmoothed and unhewn stone. And the fact alone that Freemasonry creates a brotherhood excluding all other brotherhoods outside it (which are considered by Freemasonry as "uninstructed", even when they are Christian) proves clearly its pretensions to be a super-religion. This means that by masonic initiation, a Christian becomes a brother of the Muslim, the Buddhist, or any kind of rationalist, while the Christian not initiated in Freemasonry becomes to him an outsider.

"On the other hand, Freemasonry in prominently exalting knowledge and in helping free research as "putting no limit in the search of truth" (according to its rituals and constitution), and more than this by adopting the so-called natural ethic, shows itself in this sense to be in sharp contradiction with the Christian religion. For the Christian religion exalts faith above all, confining human reason to the limits traced by Divine Revelation and leading to holiness through the supernatural action of grace. In other words, which Christianity, as a religion of Revelation, possessing its rational and superrational dogmas and truths, asks for faith first, and grounds its moral structure on the super-natural Divine Grace, Freemasonry has only natural truth and brings to the knowledge of its initiates free thinking and investigation through reason only. It bases its moral structure only on the natural forces of man, and has only natural aims.

"Thus, the incompatible contradiction between Christianity and Freemasonry is quite clear. It is natural that various Churches of other denominations have taken a stand against Freemasonry. Not only has the Western Church branded for its own reasons the masonic movement by numerous Papal encyclicals, but Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian communities have also declared it to be incompatible with Christianity. Much more has the Orthodox Catholic Church, maintaining in its integrity the treasure of Christian faith proclaimed against it every time that the question of Freemasonry has been raised. Recently, the Inter-Orthodox Commission which met on Mount Athos and in which the representatives of all the Autocephalous Orthodox Churches took part, has characterized Freemasonry as a "false and anti-Christian system."

The assembly of the Bishops of the Church of Greece in the above mentioned session heard with relief and accepted the following conclusions which were drawn from the investigations and discussions by its President His Grace Archbishop Chrysostom of Athens:

"Freemasonry cannot be at all compatible with Christianity as far as it is a secret organization, acting and teaching in mystery and secret and deifying rationalism. Freemasonry accepts as its members not only Christians, but also Jews and Muslims. Consequently clergymen cannot be permitted to take part in this association. I consider as worthy of degradation every clergyman who does so. It is necessary to urge upon all who entered it without due thought and without examining what Freemasonry is, to sever all connections with it, for Christianity alone is the religion which teaches absolute truth and fulfills the religious and moral needs of men. Unanimously and with one voice all the Bishops of the Church of Greece have approved what was said, and we declare that all the faithful children of the Church must stand apart from Freemasonry. With unshaken faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ "in whom we have our redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our sins, according to the riches of His Grace, whereby He abounds to us in all wisdom and prudence" (Ephes. 1, 7-9) possessing the truth revealed by Him and preached by the Apostles, "not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in the partaking in the Divine Sacraments through which we are sanctified and saved by eternal life, we must not fall from the grace of Christ by becoming partakers of other mysteries. It is not lawful to belong at the same time to Christ and to search for redemption and mora1 perfection outside Him. For these reasons true Christianity is incompatible with Freemasonry.

"Therefore, all who have become involved in the initiations of masonic mysteries must from this moment sever all relations with masonic lodges and activities, being sure that they are thereby of a certainty renewing their links with our one Lord and Savior which were weakened by ignorance and by a wrong sense of values. The Assembly of the Bishops of the Church of Greece expects this particularly and with love from the initiates of the lodges, being convinced that most of them have received masonic initiation not realizing that by it they were passing into another religion, but on the contrary from ignorance, thinking that they had done nothing contrary to the faith of their fathers. Recommending them to the sympathy, and in no wise to the hostility or hatred of the faithful children of the Church, the Assembly of the Bishops calls them to pray with her from the heart in Christian love, that the one Lord Jesus Christ "the way, the truth and the life" may illumine and return to the truth who in ignorance have gone astray."

Reprinted from: Borichevsky, Rev. Fr. Vladimir S. and Jula, Rev. Fr. Stephen N., Masonry or Christ?, Ch. V.

thelonious

14-03-2008, 02:43 PM

You seem to know much useless trivial knowledge Theolonius. You should play on Jeopardy, you be sure to win.

That's what my wife says too.

Burn your books right now........oww and STOP WORSHIPPING LUCIFER YOU PAGAN!

But that wouldn't any fun, now, would it?

thelonious

14-03-2008, 02:47 PM

maybe modern christian freemasons belong to a modern sun cult, which they call Christianity, but orthodoxy thinks that freemasons are heretics and idolaters. in Greece, i was never taught by Christians about worshiping any Sun, or anything about the Sun other than science and life can show me. of course, i don't want to claim that Greek eastern orthodox Christianity is the original one and the others are fake, because there is a lot of drama behind it, but that what you stated above can only stand for certain denominations.

I have a high regard for the Greek Orthodox Church, as far as it's traditions are concerned. I of course disagree with them on the subject of Freemasonry.

I believe the Greek Church contains a remnant of pure Christianity, i.e., Gnosticism. However, I also believe the Church has in large part forgotten these meanings. That being said, I think the Greek and Roman Churches are closest to the original sun cults because they preserve the mystery of the sacrament, which is largely lost in Protestant denominations. Again, by "sun cult", I don't mean anything bad or evil, I just refer to the primitive mystery faiths.

bigus_dickus

14-03-2008, 03:51 PM

I have a high regard for the Greek Orthodox Church, as far as it's traditions are concerned. I of course disagree with them on the subject of Freemasonry.

this was the official statement of the church and, i think most of the clergy and the (Christian) people of Greece would agree with it. however, things are not exactly like that, because many prominent personalities of the church have been masons, especially in periods of crisis and political transformation.

I believe the Greek Church contains a remnant of pure Christianity, i.e., Gnosticism. However, I also believe the Church has in large part forgotten these meanings. That being said, I think the Greek and Roman Churches are closest to the original sun cults because they preserve the mystery of the sacrament, which is largely lost in Protestant denominations. Again, by "sun cult", I don't mean anything bad or evil, I just refer to the primitive mystery faiths.

gnosticism is something that originated from platonic philosophies and portions of these philosophies you can find in orthodox texts and a lot of their elements inside the bible. but, i don't think that gnosticism is "original" and "pure" Christianity, as these philosophies existed in Greece and Egypt long before Christianity arrived. because Christianity and the story of Jesus impressed a lot of people all around the world, the gnostic saw in Him the personification of their theories. during the era of romanticism, a lot of poets mixed gnosticism and christianity and presented a different 'romantic' religious point of view.

which means that original Christianity (as taught by Paul) and gnosticism co existed (together with a lot of different cults) with Christianity in the early history of Christianity. it is possible that a lot of the books and ideas of that era are preserved in the Mount of Athos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Athos) ("holy mountain"), which is one of the very few and rare "holy" places in the world, outside politics, laws, technology and trespassing. women are not allowed to go there.

but it seems that gnosticism affected a lot the other western cultures, especially after Blavatsky decided to mix all religions together and come up with "theosophy". that's where freemasonry comes from and a whole lot of other cults that have been troubling humanity for the last few centuries. suffice to say that almost all the "New Agers" and the wannabe intellectuals have high regards for Blavatsky's theories and so do the "conspiracy theorists". i don't think it is brainwashing or anything, which is done deliberately for that purpose, but people tend to interpret stuff according to their existing knowledge, thus they get confused.

thelonious

14-03-2008, 03:57 PM

which means that original Christianity (as taught by Paul) and gnosticism co existed (together with a lot of different cults) with Christianity in the early history of Christianity.

Here, I think, is where we differ. I do not consider Pauline Christianity to be "original". For example, the Gospel of John and Revelation of John are strongly Gnostic in nature. John's Gospel even identifies Christ with the Logos, a purely Gnostic concept. Yet in the Pauline Epistles, we see Paul (or whoever wrote the books attributed to him) condemning Gnosticism, showing that the Gnostic Christian Church was well established and viewed as a threat to the non-Gnostic branch, represented by the Pauline author(s). I therefore consider Paulism a corruption of Christianity, noting the vast differences in the Pauline theologies and doctrines with the simple moral and spiritual doctrines attributed to Christ in the Gospels.

bigus_dickus

14-03-2008, 05:06 PM

For example, the Gospel of John and Revelation of John are strongly Gnostic in nature. John's Gospel even identifies Christ with the Logos, a purely Gnostic concept.

however these gospels were written later. "Paulean" Christianity, as demonstrated in his letters, is specific. some of its main points are: a) Jesus is both divine and human b) Jesus resurrected to heaven and is expected to return c) the world is soon to end and people need to be ready d) there is no way to attain eternal life in the heavens, if you don't repent and accept Jesus' resurrection e) people of the world are not required to follow the jewish law, except if they are jews (like Paul was. this means no circumcision, etc.) f) people can practice Christianity only by participation in the community of the church of Christ as an equal member of the body of Christ (no authorities and bishops, Christ is the only authority)

and more...

it is not clear if the "logos became flesh" refers specifically to Jesus. it does only by implication, considering the rest of the material and especially the material which was added later!

moreover, what does it really mean "and the word became flesh"? it doesn't make sense. that's maybe because in the context of the word "logos" that was used, it used to mean a different thing than it meant later until now.

i have addressed this issue in other threads. if the beginning was the "word", then who said it? what does it mean that the "word" was with God and the "word" was God? does it make any sense at all?

if Jesus existed since the beginning, as the passage is supposed to mean, then why isn't Jesus referred to anywhere until his conception and why is he allegedly prophesied to arrive as a King who would liberate the Jews from their tyranny? Jesus was nothing like the prophecies, in fact he was the direct opposite of the powerful King figure that was prophesied in the OT. the Jews of that time would have never accepted him as the prophesied King, because not only he didn't resemble a powerful King figure, but he also managed to get convicted to death as a common criminal or charlatan.

so, you see, not everything is as it seems.

Yet in the Pauline Epistles, we see Paul (or whoever wrote the books attributed to him) condemning Gnosticism, showing that the Gnostic Christian Church was well established and viewed as a threat to the non-Gnostic branch, represented by the Pauline author(s). I therefore consider Paulism a corruption of Christianity, noting the vast differences in the Pauline theologies and doctrines with the simple moral and spiritual doctrines attributed to Christ in the Gospels.

i wouldn't say it is a corruption, he practically invented it. there was no gnostic Christianity when Paul taught about his vision of the resurrected Jesus to people and convinced them that he was the only and real son of the only one God. the gnostics in general, believe in a big number of deities, all included under the "umbrella" of the one and only authority, the spirit, or Sophia, or God. that's different from Christianity in a way that its beliefs consist of "angelic" entities who work in hierarchy that are instruments of God with no free autonomous will unto themselves, but only executing the will of God. they are "invisible", in the "invisible" part of the universe which God had created before the "visible".

however it is written that some of these angelic beings departed the heavens, to inhabit the earth, still in invisible form. thus, they adopted free will to themselves, like us, perhaps. contrary to the gnostics who believe that this world is a creation of a "lesser" God, the Christians believe that there is no "lesser" God than God and that God has put the rebel adversary to rule the visible world (our world that is) as a punishment, or consequence of his own decisions and actions.

greenleaf

14-03-2008, 09:17 PM

FFs... after reading all this, It makes me proud to be atheist

bigus_dickus

17-03-2008, 05:21 AM

FFs... after reading all this, It makes me proud to be atheist

there's no other way to feel proud. it feels good doesn't it.

armoured_amazon

17-03-2008, 09:07 AM

That's the difference. People of God work on getting rid of personal pride and serve the community instead.

grover66

17-03-2008, 01:23 PM

That's the difference. People of God work on getting rid of personal pride and serve the community instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bakker

http://www.corporatenarc.com/bennyhinnfraud.php

And the most famous person of God:

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii152/cmw66/pope_benedict_xvi-evil.jpg

bigus_dickus

17-03-2008, 01:44 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bakker

http://www.corporatenarc.com/bennyhinnfraud.php (http://www.corporatenarc.om/bennyhinnfraud.php)

televangelists.... :)

you do know that's a million dollar business, right?

grover66

17-03-2008, 01:57 PM

televangelists.... :)

you do know that's a million dollar business, right?

Reeeeeeealy???? :D Praise Jesus and pass the hat!

bigus_dickus

17-03-2008, 01:59 PM

Reeeeeeealy???? :D Praise Jesus and pass the hat!

alright, so do you think that these people are actually religious? they should be all locked up for fraud (all televangelists i mean, not only the "scandalous").

grover66

17-03-2008, 02:08 PM

alright, so do you think that these people are actually religious? they should be all locked up for fraud (all televangelists i mean, not only the "scandalous").

I don't know about being "locked up". I think that a lot of them are all about making money. I think they're entertainers who prey on innocent people ... people who are willing to hand over funds for salvation. It's all a stage act. I've got Pay TV (cable in the US) on which I can watch the Christian channel. I can stomach about 2 minutes of it because it's such a show! It's all so scripted. I think the tele-evangilists are con men ... a la Steve Martin in "Leap of Faith". Which to me sux!! It cheapens spirituality and like I've already said (repeating myself) cons people!

As for the Pope, God's representative on Earth? Infallibile?? Yeah, Godly as. Anyway, sorry, I've derailed this thread about Freemasonry and I've wandered into the always volatile area of religion! I was just replying to a comment about Godly men or some such! :) I'll zip it!!

bigus_dickus

17-03-2008, 02:16 PM

I don't know about being "locked up". I think that a lot of them are all about making money. I think they're entertainers who prey on innocent people ... people who are willing to hand over funds for salvation. It's all a stage act. I've got Pay TV (cable in the US) on which I can watch the Christian channel. I can stomach about 2 minutes of it because it's such a show! It's all so scripted. I think the tele-evangilists are con men ... a la Steve Martin in "Leap of Faith". Which to me sux!! It cheapens spirituality and like I've already said (repeating myself) cons people!

we don't have stuff like that in Greece. i freak out every time i see it.. i can't watch over a minute. it is not even funny and it is straight up fraud if you ask me, not Christian at all.

As for the Pope, God's representative on Earth? Infallibile?? Yeah, Godly as. Anyway, sorry, I've derailed this thread about Freemasonry and I've wandered into the always volatile area of religion! I was just replying to a comment about Godly men or some such! :) I'll zip it!!

we are God's representatives on earth. yes, even you, whether you know it or not :)

grover66

17-03-2008, 02:24 PM

we don't have stuff like that in Greece. i freak out every time i see it.. i can't watch over a minute. it is not even funny and it is straight up fraud if you ask me, not Christian at all.

we are God's representatives on earth. yes, even you, whether you know it or not :)

Hi Bigus, didn't realise you were in Greece .. that's great! The place I'd go to with a yacht if I had the money! :)

And, yes, we are God' reps on Earth. God's in all of us :)

thelonious

17-03-2008, 02:34 PM

Anyway, sorry, I've derailed this thread about Freemasonry and I've wandered into the always volatile area of religion! I was just replying to a comment about Godly men or some such! :) I'll zip it!!

Not at all, I think your points are valid. Furthermore, I will have to agree with Armored Amazon on the subject.

bigus_dickus

17-03-2008, 02:35 PM

Hi Bigus, didn't realise you were in Greece .. that's great! The place I'd go to with a yacht if I had the money! :)

well, if you can afford a motorbike, it's the place to be as well ;)

hiram_abiff

19-03-2008, 12:21 PM

The psychologically lacking would find joining Secret Societies attractive. Do members understand this? How could any 'secret' society be anything other than negative? How can any human being find it anything other than childish behaviour? To me, freemasons are amongst the silliest people alive. What is the attraction unless you are of a mafia/gangster type bent? Should you not all just grow up?

Gold Stars at school, Badges on scout uniforms, Dressing up, gangs... how is it any different? How are freemasons not embarassed. This is a serious question. I just do not get it.

It has to be secret, Freemasonry is an initiatory system which teaches morality through out the range of its degrees. It builds on the moral teaching as you go through the degrees. If you knew what the teaching was then it would spoil it for the candidate. The same way If you open a birthday present before your birthday it takes away the suprise or in freemasonry's case the moment of enlightenment when the knowledge of that degree is revealed to the candidate. It is nothing sinister, like you are looking for.

tinmenace

19-03-2008, 12:35 PM

Not a good analogy, IMO.

One is a gift, and the other is a goal to be achieved. The "moment of enlightenment" shouldn't be denied to anyone in search of it and should be available to every man, woman and child...assuming the goal is REALLY to have a better world...a better future for mankind.

The fact that it is NOT freely available to every man, woman and child, tells me that it's not really about creating a better world for everyone. It's about Elitist power for the few, and the illusion of power/enlightenment for the vast majority of Freemasons that don't make it past the first 3 degrees.

elirien

19-03-2008, 12:47 PM

Do you like it that higher degree Freemasons do things in secret that you don't have a clue about
because "they are your trustworthy parents who are also buying your birthday gifts"?

tothestars

19-03-2008, 02:06 PM

I am curios if the name Yoda rings a bell to you. Very few masons know what it is....

chestnutlodge

19-03-2008, 02:29 PM

What has Yoda got to do with freemasonry?

hiram_abiff

19-03-2008, 02:54 PM

The fact that it is NOT freely available to every man, woman and child, tells me that it's not really about creating a better world for everyone. It's about Elitist power for the few, and the illusion of power/enlightenment for the vast majority of Freemasons that don't make it past the first 3 degrees.

Any freemason is free to advance past the first three degrees and enter the side degrees if he so wishes. You an join the chapter or ark mariners, Rose or Knight Templar. It is not hard to go through the degrees. I know people who are 32 degree masons, they are not elitist in any way. Infact if you think masonry is all about then you are mistaken as I earn 3 times more than what the 32 degree masons I know earn.
It is available to both men and women. Womens freemasonry is well established. As for children the awnser is no, until the age of 21. I think this is fair as by this age they are established in life and able to make their own decisions.

hiram_abiff

19-03-2008, 02:56 PM

What has Yoda got to do with freemasonry?

he's the God of Masonry, You didnt know!!!!! how you have been kept in the dark brother.

hiram_abiff

19-03-2008, 03:02 PM

Do you like it that higher degree Freemasons do things in secret that you don't have a clue about
because "they are your trustworthy parents who are also buying your birthday gifts"?

Ok lets get it straight here, What goes on in the side degrees is much the same as craft lodge. Each degree has a ritual which teaches a moral principle. that is freemasonry. What people choose to do beside this is not freemasonry. If they are involved in some sort of corruption or whatever, then this is nothing to do with the Masonic Fraternity per say. Masonry teaches you to be upright in all you do. If members fail to do this then it is clear that they do not follow masonic practice and therefore are not fit to be Masons.

thelonious

19-03-2008, 03:07 PM

[I]Not a good analogy, IMO.

One is a gift, and the other is a goal to be achieved. The "moment of enlightenment" shouldn't be denied to anyone in search of it and should be available to every man, woman and child...assuming the goal is REALLY to have a better world...a better future for mankind.

I agree somewhat, but am not sure if I can agree completely.

Firstly, it is important to realize that Freemasonry cannot promise "enlightenment" to anyone. It can be source of enlightenment, just as Buddhism, Taoism, and philosophy can be sources of enlightenment. But we would be in error if we believed that every Freemason is an enlightened man. It's a nice thought but, in reality, most Masons consider Freemasonry to be a social club, not a method of attainment.

As for me, I would absolutely love it if more Freemasons concentrated on the enlightenment part. There is plenty in Freemasonry that leads in that direction. But again, most of our members view the fraternity as a sort of civic club, and an excuse to get out of the house a couple of times per month, and have a good meal and cigar with "the guys".

As to whether enlightenment should be available to everyone, this is sort of a different issue, and doesn't really involve Freemasonry per se. The Most Wise and Perfect Master, whose martyrdom we commemorate tomorrow, once instructed his disciples to cast not their pearls before swine. He realized that the majority of people were not interested in enlightenment, nor in the uplift of their spirits. Instead, they are controlled by greed and lust. It would therefore be a crime for one truly enlightened to cast his or her pearls before such people, because they would only be blasphemed.

I will say this though: *all* people who *truly* seek enlightenment will find it, regardless of whether they are members of any fraternal orders. It is written: "Seek and ye shall find; ask and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you".

It's about Elitist power for the few, and the illusion of power/enlightenment for the vast majority of Freemasons that don't make it past the first 3 degrees.

This is not the case, at least in the United States. In the USA, roughly half of all Masons hold at least the 32° in the Scottish Rite. The other half could be, if they so wanted. Of the half that are not 32° Scottish Rite Masons, about a quarter are Masonic Knights Templar in the York Rite. Many of us are both.

In the United States, very few active Masons stop at the Third Degree, and the vast majority hold advanced degrees.

elirien

19-03-2008, 03:56 PM

Ok lets get it straight here, What goes on in the side degrees is much the same as craft lodge. Each degree has a ritual which teaches a moral principle. that is freemasonry. What people choose to do beside this is not freemasonry. If they are involved in some sort of corruption or whatever, then this is nothing to do with the Masonic Fraternity per say. Masonry teaches you to be upright in all you do. If members fail to do this then it is clear that they do not follow masonic practice and therefore are not fit to be Masons.

Ok. Let me ask you the same question again since this is not an answer to my question at all.

Do you like it that higher degree Freemasons do things in secret that you don't have a clue about because "they are your trustworthy parents who are also buying your birthday gifts"?

tinmenace

19-03-2008, 04:40 PM

He realized that the majority of people were not interested in enlightenment, nor in the uplift of their spirits. Instead, they are controlled by greed and lust.

But it shouldn't be purposely withheld because most people "might not be interested." It should be available to ALL, and let the individual decide for him/herself if it's something they want to do.

It is not for anyone, other than the individual, to decide what he is ready for or what he is not ready for. For someone else to be the decider of another's spiritual growth is an act of control and oppression, and paths the way for tyranny and corruption.

The control of humans and their perceptions is why they act like "swine." They no longer act like sovereign beings worthy of ALL there is to know, because they don't realize that they are infinity.

thelonious

19-03-2008, 05:12 PM

But it shouldn't be purposely withheld because most people "might not be interested." It should be available to ALL, and let the individual decide for him/herself if it's something they want to do.

I think it's much more than one not being interested. Let's say, for example, that true enlightenment completely breaks down all preconceived notions and psychological programming. If that is the case, then whatever "enlightenment" really is becomes a major threat to the establishment, because by their very nature they must thrive on conservativism.

We see this in the persecution and execution of Christ, as well as Socrates, Servetus, and many others.

So, let's use an example to illustrate what I fear would be the actual truth. Let's say that through meditation, yoga, or some other spiritual practice, you have an epiphany, and just like Buddha under the bo tree, become enlightened. Let's also assume that your profound moment of spiritual insight leaves you with the conclusion that the common religions and philosophies had got it all wrong, and are not only profiting by deceiving people, but are in fact leading them in the opposite direction of where you found insight into truth.

You would naturally want to share what you learned with others. But how would you do it?

You could indiscriminately go around telling everybody you met that you found the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that they themselves had it figured out all wrong due to religious and other psychological programming. Your comments to this effect may be completely in earnest and correct....but how would they respond.

In many cases, you would just be brushed off. But in others, some would take extreme offense, and believe you were insulting their religion or God. Persecution is a psychological defense mechanism, and humanity has not evolved to the point where it would not use it.

Even those who would not resort to persecution and not take offense would generally just consider you to be a harmless nut. And thus the people you want to help would have turned against you. Just like they did Christ. Just like they did Socrates.

Consider "The Matrix" films, which are an allegory to this effect (written and directed by initiates of the O.T.O.). Morpheus and his associates carefully selected Neo and various others, not at random, but after careful thought.

They could not just sit him down and tell him all about the knowledge they had acquired through their experience. He would have to experience it himself through an initiatory ordeal. Only then, could he see it with his own eyes.

The control of humans and their perceptions is why they act like "swine."

And yet Christ was speaking of the Pharisees and Sanhedrin, who were the ones in control. Why would you think that was?

thelonious

19-03-2008, 05:15 PM

Do you like it that higher degree Freemasons do things in secret that you don't have a clue about because "they are your trustworthy parents who are also buying your birthday gifts"?

I think what he's saying is that there are no "high degree Freemasons" who are his parents or buy him things. Nor do we particularly do a lot of things in "secret".

tinmenace

19-03-2008, 05:51 PM

I think it's much more than one not being interested. Let's say, for example, that true enlightenment completely breaks down all preconceived notions and psychological programming. If that is the case, then whatever "enlightenment" really is becomes a major threat to the establishment, because by their very nature they must thrive on conservativism.

I think we should be free to spread truth and enlightenment because it will free us from a controlling and abusive establishment. To NOT spread truth and enlightenment protects and serves this corrupt establishment. Are you suggesting we not spread truth and enlightenment just so the establishment can survive? :confused:

We see this in the persecution and execution of Christ, as well as Socrates, Servetus, and many others.

So, let's use an example to illustrate what I fear would be the actual truth. Let's say that through meditation, yoga, or some other spiritual practice, you have an epiphany, and just like Buddha under the bo tree, become enlightened. Let's also assume that your profound moment of spiritual insight leaves you with the conclusion that the common religions and philosophies had got it all wrong, and are not only profiting by deceiving people, but are in fact leading them in the opposite direction of where you found insight into truth.

You would naturally want to share what you learned with others. But how would you do it?

You could indiscriminately go around telling everybody you met that you found the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that they themselves had it figured out all wrong due to religious and other psychological programming. Your comments to this effect may be completely in earnest and correct....but how would they respond.

How would they respond? That's not for me to determine. I share information, and they do with it as they please. Why would I try to control someone else's reaction to information?

In many cases, you would just be brushed off. But in others, some would take extreme offense, and believe you were insulting their religion or God. Persecution is a psychological defense mechanism, and humanity has not evolved to the point where it would not use it.

Even those who would not resort to persecution and not take offense would generally just consider you to be a harmless nut. And thus the people you want to help would have turned against you. Just like they did Christ. Just like they did Socrates.

So we should be quiet, for the fear of being considered a nut, or being brushed off? Nah, that's not a good enough reason. I couldn't care less what people think of me.

Consider "The Matrix" films, which are an allegory to this effect (written and directed by initiates of the O.T.O.). Morpheus and his associates carefully selected Neo and various others, not at random, but after careful thought.

That's one example, but it doesn't mean that EVERYONE would react in the same way. There are many that hunger for knowledge and are denied knowledge for stupid reasons such as gender or age. It's utterly ridiculous that humans think that they can sit in judgment of other humans, and decide what they can or cannot be exposed to. This is oppression. Do you not see that?

They could not just sit him down and tell him all about the knowledge they had acquired through their experience. He would have to experience it himself through an initiatory ordeal. Only then, could he see it with his own eyes.

Absolutely! You have to walk the path yourself, but EVERYONE should be given unlimited access to this knowledge to decide for themselves if it is a path they want to pursue. No man should elevate himself to the lofty position of deciding what another man/woman can or cannot know. Without this free will, it is a VERY imbalanced world, as is obvious...just look around you.

And yet Christ was speaking of the Pharisees and Sanhedrin, who were the ones in control. Why would you think that was?

I was just riding on your example of a herd animal. Since that is what most of humanity is at this point in time.

.

hiram_abiff

19-03-2008, 06:04 PM

Ok. Let me ask you the same question again since this is not an answer to my question at all.

Do you like it that higher degree Freemasons do things in secret that you don't have a clue about because "they are your trustworthy parents who are also buying your birthday gifts"?

Answer: There are no higher degrees. It is a body of degrees known as the ancient and accepted rite in England.They are side degrees in England.
It dose'nt bother me what they do in secret, God sees exactly what goes on, and it is my belief that they will answer to God if indeed they are doing dishonest things.
They dont buy me birthday gifts.Question Awnsered, Your Point is????

thelonious

19-03-2008, 06:19 PM

I think we should be free to spread truth and enlightenment because it will free us from a controlling and abusive establishment. To NOT spread truth and enlightenment protects and serves this corrupt establishment. Are you suggesting we not spread truth and enlightenment just so the establishment can survive?

Not at all, and I think our ideas are more similar than one might at first suppose. I certainly do think we should spread truth and enlightenment. But how do we do that? That, I think, is the relevant question.

How would they respond? That's not for me to determine. I share information, and they do with it as they please. Why would I try to control someone else's reaction to information?

I guess my question on this is: would that method really work? And when you say that you share information, and others may do with it as they please, I wonder if you have considered the possible karmic repurcussions?

For example, let's say I am a nuclear physicist. If a North Korean spy asks me how to build a long range nuclear weapon, should I share that information for the sake of enlightening him on the subject, or do I have certain karmic responsibilities that would keep me from doing so?

So we should be quiet, for the fear of being considered a nut, or being brushed off? Nah, that's not a good enough reason. I couldn't care less what people think of me.

I'm not trying to be facetious, but you have apparently never been tied to a torture rack. If you really believe such persecution is a thing of the past, I would beg you to reconsider. Although we tend to believe that such things "could never happen again", they are in fact going on in lots of places, and could very well happen again in our own neighborhoods.

Like you, I really don't care what people think of me. If I did, I probably wouldn't be posting on this forum as a Masonic apologist. But my very plight here provides a perfect example of what I'm trying to say:

Probably the majority of the members on this forum have erroneous views concerning Freemasonry. If I tell them they're wrong, some get upset and offended. This is because I've challenged their preconceived notions, their psychological programming. Most here have treated me with respect, which I greatly appreciate. But some have become violent and/or condescending in their language against me. Not because I've ever done anything bad to them, but because I bare a certain label, i.e., "Freemason", and that label carries certain connotations in their psychological makeup, regardless of whether or not they are correct.

The same scenario carries over and over again, with any attempt to convince someone that we're right, and they're wrong, about anything. It certainly doesn't have to be about Freemasonry.

As you've seen, I have not convinced very many here about the benevolence of Freemasonry, because they are already programmed to deny such benevolence. In the same manner, you will not convince many people of the truthfulness of your own ideas of enlightenment, even though they may be completely correct.

That's one example, but it doesn't mean that EVERYONE would react in the same way. There are many that hunger for knowledge and are denied knowledge for stupid reasons such as gender or age. It's utterly ridiculous that humans think that they can sit in judgment of other humans, and decide what they can or cannot be exposed to. This is oppression. Do you not see that?

Earlier, I quoted the Apostle John, who wrote, "Ask and ye shall receive; seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you". To answer your question, I will continue to quote from him, who also wrote:

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The honest seeker will always find the Way. It may be a struggle, but struggle always produces strength.

Many blessings,

L.V.X.

tinmenace

19-03-2008, 06:37 PM

I guess my question on this is: would that method really work? And when you say that you share information, and others may do with it as they please, I wonder if you have considered the possible karmic repurcussions?

For example, let's say I am a nuclear physicist. If a North Korean spy asks me how to build a long range nuclear weapon, should I share that information for the sake of enlightening him on the subject, or do I have certain karmic responsibilities that would keep me from doing so?

The Karmic repercussions would apply if I'd forced my will on anyone. Forcing them to see it my way, forcing them to live their lives to my satisfaction, forcing them into a spiritual prison for which I hold the key...THAT is bad Karma. Providing information without any expectations from anyone to read it, live it or accept it has no negative Karmic repercussions because I am not responsible for other people's choices in life. I provide information, and you do with it as you please. What you do with it is your personal Karmic responsibility.

As to the second part of your response, I'd like to quote David Icke from one of his recent newsletters:

It is very clever to make an atomic bomb, but it is wisdom not to do so. In the same way it takes intellect to orchestrate a war, but heart - higher consciousness - not to do so. It takes intellect to explain the apparent complexities within this world of division and apartness, but heart - higher consciousness - to see that we are all One.

:)

elirien

19-03-2008, 06:42 PM

I think what he's saying is that there are no "high degree Freemasons" who are his parents or buy him things. Nor do we particularly do a lot of things in "secret".

Thank you thelonious. I will ask the next high degree freemason I encounter if I could attend one of their meetings with a video camera. I hope he is as open as you are on this subject.

Answer: There are no higher degrees. It is a body of degrees known as the ancient and accepted rite in England.They are side degrees in England.
It dose'nt bother me what they do in secret, God sees exactly what goes on, and it is my belief that they will answer to God if indeed they are doing dishonest things.
They dont buy me birthday gifts.Question Awnsered, Your Point is????

Well since I suppose you are not a 33 degree or Knight of The Templar Freemason there must be higher degree Freemasons then you around.

Since you don't bother what they do in secret like a good sub ordinate I have nothing further to say. I thank you for your answer. I just wanted to point out what your analogy of the birthday gift implied.

I'm not making a point or trying to prove anything, though I am happy to share my opinion on the thoughts that you shared with us about freemasonry, if asked.

note: I hate multiplied punctuation marks.

thelonious

19-03-2008, 07:16 PM

Thank you thelonious. I will ask the next high degree freemason I encounter if I could attend one of their meetings with a video camera. I hope he is as open as you are on this subject.

Actually, sometimes we do videotape parts of our meetings. Some of these have been aired on TV programs concerning Freemasonry.

Well since I suppose you are not a 33 degree or Knight of The Templar Freemason there must be higher degree Freemasons then you around.

Actually, I am a Masonic Knight Templar, and am Past Commander (presiding officer) of my Knight Templar Commandery (lodge). And while I am not a 33° Scottish Rite Mason, I do hold the 32° in that Rite, and have been honored by the Supreme Council by being decorated as a Knight Commander of the Court of Honour (which is the third highest honor in Scottish Rite Masonry). I say all this not to boast, but to demonstrate that I am intimately familiar with what you call "the higher degrees".

elirien

19-03-2008, 07:44 PM

Actually, sometimes we do videotape parts of our meetings. Some of these have been aired on TV programs concerning Freemasonry.

Actually, I am a Masonic Knight Templar, and am Past Commander (presiding officer) of my Knight Templar Commandery (lodge). And while I am not a 33° Scottish Rite Mason, I do hold the 32° in that Rite, and have been honored by the Supreme Council by being decorated as a Knight Commander of the Court of Honour (which is the third highest honor in Scottish Rite Masonry). I say all this not to boast, but to demonstrate that I am intimately familiar with what you call "the higher degrees".

Why don't you record the whole of the meetings? I'm still lost with the idea why the proceedings are not open for research. I watched some documentaries about the subject where they recorded a ritual from the third degree with the whole Hiram Abiff story. And I watched a secretly recorded video from a masonic wedding here in one of the lodges in Istanbul.

Especially the third degree ceremony/ritual looked imho pretty much like high school theater. Why is the rest so secretive? Or did I miss a place where they are being aired?

By the way; it is good that you mentioned your degree since I was about to ask you and some other masons that are in this forum anyway. Thank you for that.

thelonious

19-03-2008, 07:45 PM

The Karmic repercussions would apply if I'd forced my will on anyone.

The traditional interpretation of Karma is that we are responsible for all of our actions, and their effects, regardless if we force anything on anyone. For example, if I placed a loaded gun in the hands of a child, and he killed himself or someone else, I am karmically responsible for those deaths, even though I didn't force him to pull the trigger.

Providing information without any expectations from anyone to read it

But is that realistic? Whether for good or for evil, there will be a reaction.

live it or accept it has no negative Karmic repercussions because I am not responsible for other people's choices in life. I provide information, and you do with it as you please. What you do with it is your personal Karmic responsibility.

Karma is not personal independence. Karma is universal interdependence. We are our brother's keeper.

Many blessings,

L.V.X.

hiram_abiff

19-03-2008, 07:53 PM

Thank you thelonious. I will ask the next high degree freemason I encounter if I could attend one of their meetings with a video camera. I hope he is as open as you are on this subject.

Well since I suppose you are not a 33 degree or Knight of The Templar Freemason there must be higher degree Freemasons then you around.

Since you don't bother what they do in secret like a good sub ordinate I have nothing further to say. I thank you for your answer. I just wanted to point out what your analogy of the birthday gift implied.

I'm not making a point or trying to prove anything, though I am happy to share my opinion on the thoughts that you shared with us about freemasonry, if asked.

note: I hate multiplied punctuation marks.

I dont bother about what they do in secret the same way as I dont bother what you do in secret. I really dosent affect me. If you think you are putting up some sort of world wide resistance against freemasonry by posting on sites like this you are sadly mistaken. I just come on here cos my friend said the content is laughable. He was right.
As for the multiplied quotation marks!!!! Deal with it your a big boy now!!!!

thelonious

19-03-2008, 07:57 PM

Why don't you record the whole of the meetings?

Actually, I do, but on paper. I'm the Secretary of my Lodge, and it is the Secretary's responsibility to record the activities of all meetings in the minute book. At every meeting, the minutes from the previous meeting must read and confirmed.

I'm still lost with the idea why the proceedings are not open for research. I watched some documentaries about the subject where they recorded a ritual from the third degree with the whole Hiram Abiff story. And I watched a secretly recorded video from a masonic wedding here in one of the lodges in Istanbul.

We don't have Masonic weddings here in the USA, so that's sort of a new one for me. Do you mean the wedding was performed in a Lodge, or was the ceremony itself supposed to somehow be Masonic?

As to your other question, to open the initiation ceremony up to non-initiates would completely defeat the purpose. The one thing that binds the fraternity together is that all have been inducted in the same ceremony, which has been performed in essentially the same manner for centuries.

If we opened the doors to curious onlookers, yes, many would attend to see it. But of course, that would rob it of its mystery, and there would be no reason for anyone to seek initiation himself if he could just go watch someone else be initiated. And if there were no new initiates, the fraternity would become extinct pretty quickly.

Especially the third degree ceremony/ritual looked imho pretty much like high school theater. Why is the rest so secretive? Or did I miss a place where they are being aired?

I agree that the degrees are pretty much amateur theater. In the Scottish Rite, the degrees are usually performed on stage, with lighting, sound, and props, just like plays. They are not "secretive" in the general sense, and Masonic authors have written at length about them in hundreds of books which are accessible to anyone interested.

elirien

19-03-2008, 08:34 PM

Actually, I do, but on paper. I'm the Secretary of my Lodge, and it is the Secretary's responsibility to record the activities of all meetings in the minute book. At every meeting, the minutes from the previous meeting must read and confirmed.

Why are they not published if its all about charity and philosophical debate?

We don't have Masonic weddings here in the USA, so that's sort of a new one for me. Do you mean the wedding was performed in a Lodge, or was the ceremony itself supposed to somehow be Masonic?

I couldn't find the video now on youtube. But as far as I remember it was wedding performed at the Lodge. Don't know if the ritual was masonic or not.

I found this while searching in google:

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/Masonic%20Wedding.htm

As to your other question, to open the initiation ceremony up to non-initiates would completely defeat the purpose. The one thing that binds the fraternity together is that all have been inducted in the same ceremony, which has been performed in essentially the same manner for centuries.

If we opened the doors to curious onlookers, yes, many would attend to see it. But of course, that would rob it of its mystery, and there would be no reason for anyone to seek initiation himself if he could just go watch someone else be initiated. And if there were no new initiates, the fraternity would become extinct pretty quickly.

Are you implying that people become Masons only for the knowledge of the initiation ceremony? Is freemasonry that frail? That sounds a little bit weird now doesn't it?

You mean that the initiation ceremony is all about mystery and has nothing to do with anything else at all then.

thelonious

19-03-2008, 08:56 PM

Why are they not published if its all about charity and philosophical debate?

I'm not sure who would actually spend the money to publish them. There's no general interest in Lodge minutes, not even among most members.

I couldn't find the video now on youtube. But as far as I remember it was wedding performed at the Lodge. Don't know if the ritual was masonic or not.

I found this while searching in google:

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/Masonic%20Wedding.htm

Thanks, I'll take a look.

Are you implying that people become Masons only for the knowledge of the initiation ceremony? Is freemasonry that frail? That sounds a little bit weird now doesn't it?

Not at all. Freemasonry is an initiatory society. Its primary purpose for existing is to initiate. Obviously, the Order provides good fellowship, food, charities, etc., but all these things can be found outside of Freemasonry. It is the peculiar initiation that makes Freemasonry unique; it is the method in which Freemasonry instructs. Without it, it would not be Freemasonry.

You mean that the initiation ceremony is all about mystery and has nothing to do with anything else at all then.

Mystery is a component because the ritual reflects life. Life itself is a mystery. This universe is a mystery. Our purpose in life is a mystery. Freemasonry has therefore been said to be a reflection of nature.

In antiquity, there were societies known as the Mysteries. Like Freemasonry, they existed for the sole purpose of initiating. The most famous of these were the Eleusinian Mysteries of Greece, where Pythagoras, Socrates, and Plato were initiated. Of equal importance were the Mysteries as practiced in Persia, where initiates were called "Magi", and the Egyptian Mysteries, which governed the sacerdotal priesthood. It has been the opinion of many Masonic researchers that Freemasonry is a modern form of the Mysteries.

thetonic

19-03-2008, 09:03 PM

Not at all, and I think our ideas are more similar than one might at first suppose. I certainly do think we should spread truth and enlightenment. But how do we do that? That, I think, is the relevant question.

I guess my question on this is: would that method really work? And when you say that you share information, and others may do with it as they please, I wonder if you have considered the possible karmic repurcussions?

For example, let's say I am a nuclear physicist. If a North Korean spy asks me how to build a long range nuclear weapon, should I share that information for the sake of enlightening him on the subject, or do I have certain karmic responsibilities that would keep me from doing so?

I'm not trying to be facetious, but you have apparently never been tied to a torture rack. If you really believe such persecution is a thing of the past, I would beg you to reconsider. Although we tend to believe that such things "could never happen again", they are in fact going on in lots of places, and could very well happen again in our own neighborhoods.

Like you, I really don't care what people think of me. If I did, I probably wouldn't be posting on this forum as a Masonic apologist. But my very plight here provides a perfect example of what I'm trying to say:

Probably the majority of the members on this forum have erroneous views concerning Freemasonry. If I tell them they're wrong, some get upset and offended. This is because I've challenged their preconceived notions, their psychological programming. Most here have treated me with respect, which I greatly appreciate. But some have become violent and/or condescending in their language against me. Not because I've ever done anything bad to them, but because I bare a certain label, i.e., "Freemason", and that label carries certain connotations in their psychological makeup, regardless of whether or not they are correct.

The same scenario carries over and over again, with any attempt to convince someone that we're right, and they're wrong, about anything. It certainly doesn't have to be about Freemasonry.

As you've seen, I have not convinced very many here about the benevolence of Freemasonry, because they are already programmed to deny such benevolence. In the same manner, you will not convince many people of the truthfulness of your own ideas of enlightenment, even though they may be completely correct.

Earlier, I quoted the Apostle John, who wrote, "Ask and ye shall receive; seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you". To answer your question, I will continue to quote from him, who also wrote:

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The honest seeker will always find the Way. It may be a struggle, but struggle always produces strength.

Many blessings,

L.V.X.

Freemasonry is an institution and a form of the religion matrix. All institutions can be infiltrated and corrupted, the same as any and every single institution ever created no exceptions...

Your knowledge of religious texts and the ancient mystery religions is applaudable, but your common sense of current affairs concerning politics, health, etc. Im afraid leave much to be desired..

Why are people here continually arguing with you and the other masons i do not know. I soon realized that you do not have a good grasp on reality and larger aspects of life that are beyond your comprehension level

These masons do not have the answers you are looking for people

They are indoctrinated into a system of beliefs that is a mirror image of popular religions

They are set in there ways , and so will see everything through the eyes of Freemasonry much the same way a devout Jewish person will see the world through their own religious interpretation..

You show them a Microchipping site designed and endorsed by freemasons, and they will continue to fool themselves that microchips are for the good of humanity and so forth, continually making excuses for freemasonry

If it was found that Barack Obama was directly linked to al Queda tommorrow morning , the freemasons that would have voted for Obama will now vote for Hillary, because they think she is the next best thing having the label Democrat. Locked into a label , indoctrinated into the order, its the same fucking thing

If you wish to continue pointless arguing and trivial banter, wasting time with "Freemasonry" Oooh Woopdy fuckin doo! Then by all means continue.. I would however , encourage people to seek the answers to their questions from within , that is where you will gain true insight , by heightening your inner discernment and perception, you will see through these systems of indoctrination, and you will find the path to truth..

elirien

19-03-2008, 09:07 PM

Not at all. Freemasonry is an initiatory society. Its primary purpose for existing is to initiate. Obviously, the Order provides good fellowship, food, charities, etc., but all these things can be found outside of Freemasonry. It is the peculiar initiation that makes Freemasonry unique; it is the method in which Freemasonry instructs. Without it, it would not be Freemasonry.

Mystery is a component because the ritual reflects life. Life itself is a mystery. This universe is a mystery. Our purpose in life is a mystery. Freemasonry has therefore been said to be a reflection of nature.

In antiquity, there were societies known as the Mysteries. Like Freemasonry, they existed for the sole purpose of initiating. The most famous of these were the Eleusinian Mysteries of Greece, where Pythagoras, Socrates, and Plato were initiated. Of equal importance were the Mysteries as practiced in Persia, where initiates were called "Magi", and the Egyptian Mysteries, which governed the sacerdotal priesthood. It has been the opinion of many Masonic researchers that Freemasonry is a modern form of the Mysteries.

So you mean that Freemasons are called Freemasons just because they have this initiation ceremony and are dealing with the same mystery that everything else in life like science, religion and other societies, secretive or not.

I have some purely philosophical question which are not based on any documentation, but I am curious about how people think(especially masons and people with religious faiths). "Why do you think life is a mystery?". "Is there no way in the universe that societies like Freemasonry and Freemasonry itself or something far more in the shadows could have been withholding knowledge and because of that life is a mystery?"

Thank you for your answers until now.

thelonious

19-03-2008, 09:10 PM

Your knowledge of religious texts and the ancient mystery religions is applaudable, but your common sense of current affairs concerning politics, health, etc. Im afraid leave much to be desired..

I wasn't aware that this thread concerned politics or health. In fact, it is called "Freemasonry Q&A".

They are indoctrinated into a system of beliefs

Do you honestly believe you are not? The very fact that you make such a statement shows your own level of indoctrination. After all, do you write about Masonry from personal experience in it, or simply by what someone told you, either by word or in print?

My guess is the latter, which of course is indoctrination.

thelonious

19-03-2008, 09:16 PM

So you mean that Freemasons are called Freemasons just because they have this initiation ceremony and are dealing with the same mystery that everything else in life like science, religion and other societies, secretive or not.

I would say yes, if I understand your question correctly. It is the initiation ceremony that makes one a Mason.

I have some purely philosophical question which are not based on any documentation, but I am curious about how people think(especially masons and people with religious faiths). "Why do you think life is a mystery?". "Is there no way in the universe that societies like Freemasonry and Freemasonry itself or something far more in the shadows could have been withholding knowledge and because of that life is a mystery?"

I would say life is a mystery because it can be nothing else. At one point, there was nothing in existence. Then, at some point in this nothingness, there was an explosion which produced galaxies, stars, planets, and things we have yet to discover. Over an unimaginable length of time, matter somehow developed consciousness, and life was born. This is the Great Mystery, the Enigma of Hermes and of the Sphinx: we exist. But why?

tinmenace

19-03-2008, 09:20 PM

The traditional interpretation of Karma is that we are responsible for all of our actions, and their effects, regardless if we force anything on anyone. For example, if I placed a loaded gun in the hands of a child, and he killed himself or someone else, I am karmically responsible for those deaths, even though I didn't force him to pull the trigger.

But is that realistic? Whether for good or for evil, there will be a reaction.

Karma is not personal independence. Karma is universal interdependence. We are our brother's keeper.

Many blessings,

L.V.X.

I guess this is where we are different.

The minute I encounter rules/regulations/parameters/laws/traditional interpretations to do with spirituality, I take a big step back because that boils down to dogma - and dogma is a man-made spiritual trap.

thelonious

19-03-2008, 09:22 PM

I guess this is where we are different.

The minute I encounter rules/regulations/parameters/laws/traditional interpretations to do with spirituality, I take a big step back because that boils down to dogma - and dogma is a man-made spiritual trap.

Out of curiousity, would you mind sharing what your spiritual path is? It is completely non-dogmatic...or would being anti-dogmatic in itself be a dogma?

tinmenace

19-03-2008, 09:46 PM

Out of curiousity, would you mind sharing what your spiritual path is? It is completely non-dogmatic...or would being anti-dogmatic in itself be a dogma?

It doesn't have a label or a description, or a rule or anti-this or that. It just is.

What's right for me may not be right for you. How could it be? The only thing I know is, like I said in my preceding post, if it has rules/regulations/parameters/laws/traditional interpretations or even rituals as decided by another person, it's not for me. I have not yet come across any "spiritual" parameters/rules/rituals/et al that don't make me sick in my stomach. That is how I know its not for me. I FEEL it.

thetonic

19-03-2008, 10:46 PM

[QUOTE]I wasn't aware that this thread concerned politics or health. In fact, it is called "Freemasonry Q&A".

Unfortunately, this isnt the only thread youve posted on and displayed your ignorance..

Do you honestly believe you are not? The very fact that you make such a statement shows your own level of indoctrination. After all, do you write about Masonry from personal experience in it, or simply by what someone told you, either by word or in print?

My guess is the latter, which of course is indoctrination.

I researched masonry myself. I am not going solely off what "someone has told me".. And thats a very compelling argument you just made.. The whole "because you can identify indoctrination , then you must be indoctrinated".. Damned if you do, and damned if you dont.. you cant win...Typical religious nonsense

astral_girl

19-03-2008, 11:45 PM

The qualifications for membership is that one must be a male (it's a fraternity, so men-only), of legal adult age who is of good moral character, and believes in the existence of a Supreme Being.

Anyone meeting those qualifications may request admission by asking a friend who is a Mason to sponsor them. If one doesn't know any Masons, he may email his local Lodge, or Grand Lodge, explain his interest, and they will have the membership committee from a local Lodge contact him.

can you explain more about the bit about ----and belives in the existence of a supreme being??
rather a vague statement...is there any other info on this?
as in you can belive in satan -but that wont matter as he comes under the label of supreme being :confused:

thelonious

20-03-2008, 12:52 AM

can you explain more about the bit about ----and belives in the existence of a supreme being??
rather a vague statement...is there any other info on this?

It is indeed rather vague. Freemasonry originated during a period when the Church was a powerful political force, and people were routinely arrested, tortured, and even murdered for disagreeing with the Church's doctrines. Freemasonry presented a completely opposite approach: it sought to bring together theists regardless of individual differences in religious opinions. Therefore, Freemasons represent a large variety of religious beliefs. Some are traditional Christians, some are Gnostics. Some are Jews, while others are Buddhists and Muslims.

I personally am a Unitarian Universalist, along with being a Hermeticist and Kabalist.

as in you can belive in satan -but that wont matter as he comes under the label of supreme being :confused:

Technically, Satan is a belief in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic branches. They do not consider him a "supreme being" because he is not equal to their concept of God, who is almighty.

thelonious

20-03-2008, 12:59 AM

[QUOTE=thelonious;307820]

Unfortunately, this isnt the only thread youve posted on and displayed your ignorance..

My ignorance on other threads is not an issue, my friend. I have volunteered to answer people's questions on this thread, and that is precisely what I'm doing. If you don't like my answers, you are free to debate them, but so far have seemed unable to. Instead, you resort to the standard ad hominems, calling me ignorant, but unable to explain exactly why.

If you have something to contribute, please do, and I will respond. But if you just want to cry about my supposed ignorance or get attention, I honestly have better things to do.

astral_girl

20-03-2008, 10:33 PM

It is indeed rather vague. Freemasonry originated during a period when the Church was a powerful political force, and people were routinely arrested, tortured, and even murdered for disagreeing with the Church's doctrines. Freemasonry presented a completely opposite approach: it sought to bring together theists regardless of individual differences in religious opinions. Therefore, Freemasons represent a large variety of religious beliefs. Some are traditional Christians, some are Gnostics. Some are Jews, while others are Buddhists and Muslims.

I personally am a Unitarian Universalist, along with being a Hermeticist and Kabalist.

Technically, Satan is a belief in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic branches. They do not consider him a "supreme being" because he is not equal to their concept of God, who is almighty.

who does not consider him a supreme being?

tinmenace

20-03-2008, 10:50 PM

who does not consider him a supreme being?

Excellent question!

the guy in pink

21-03-2008, 01:31 PM

who does not consider him a supreme being?

You cannot have "a" supreme being, only "The" Supreme Being.
Supreme implies .. well .. Supreme!

thelonious

21-03-2008, 02:38 PM

who does not consider him a supreme being?

To my knowledge, no one does. Satan is a figure in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. The adherents of those religions consider Christ/Yahweh/Allah supreme, not Satan.

astral_girl

21-03-2008, 06:43 PM

do many christians join the freemasons -if so -any famous ones?

thelonious

21-03-2008, 08:59 PM

do many christians join the freemasons -if so -any famous ones?

Most Freemasons are Christians, although it is not necessary to be a Christian in order to become a Mason. In the UK, only Christian Masons can join the Scottish Rite, and in the USA, only Christian Masons can become a Knight Templar in the York Rite.

Famous Christian Masons include:

Charles Wesley (hymnist)
Dr. Geoffrey Fisher (former Archbishop of Canterbury)
Dr. Kenneth Lyons (bishop, United Methodist Church)
Rev. James Anderson (Presbyterian minister, first Grand Chaplain of the Grand Lodge of England)
Dr. Frederick Dalcho (Episcopalian priest, co-founder of Scottish Rite of Masonry)
Dr. George W. Truett (famous Baptist theologian)

astral_girl

21-03-2008, 11:22 PM

Masonic Light and Darkness http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/masonry.html
"Freemasons are emphatically called the Sons of Light, because they are in possession of the true meaning of the symbol; while the profane or uninitiated who have not received this knowledge are said to be in darkness."(21) In other words, the Mason has been delivered from the darkness into the light and is elevated above those who have not received the initiation into the degrees and mysteries of Freemasonry.

The "profane" individual, or the non-Mason, remains in darkness and is in need of light. The Mason, after being enlightened, continues to be in need of more light. It seems that the Mason never comes to fully understand his Craft and all that it means. However, as the Mason gains more light and understanding of the various symbols representing each degree, he becomes more aware of its different meanings. Albert Pike, the Masonic scholar, speaks of this deception, "Masonry conceals its secrets from all except Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled; to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it. Truth is not for those who are unworthy or unable to receive it, or would pervert it. So Masonry jealously conceals its secrets, and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray."(22)

According to Pike, "Masonry is a search after light."(23) The question that one must ask oneself is, What is the source of this "Light" that contemporary Freemasonry is based on? Pike goes on to tell us that the light of Masonry is based on the Kabalah, or Jewish mysticism. For the Christian this is indeed a difficulty, because the Christian cannot accept the occult beliefs of the mystics. The Bible tells us that "truth" or "light" can only be found in God's Word.

The Mason is taught that as he receives more light he grows in perfection. As he grows in perfection, he believes that he actually increases his personal worthiness and, in the process, gains a deeper appreciation of Masonry. This in-depth understanding leads to a greater degree of enlightenment and enables the Mason to feel as if he has done all he must do for acceptance into the Grand Lodge above. This appeal to human pride is a deadly trap because we all have a sin nature and want to feel that we have "earned" salvation and "deserve" it.

However, the Mason who professes Jesus Christ as his Lord is left in a very difficult position by the Lodge. The Lodge considers the Christian as being profane or unworthy to receive the "Light" of the Craft. The Mason is faced with this dilemma: if the Lodge has the Light that mankind is looking for and if Jesus is that Light, how is it then that Jesus is not to be mentioned in the Lodge if He is indeed the Light of the world?(24) This idea becomes increasingly difficult when the Christian attempts to reconcile what the Bible says regarding Jesus and what the Craft says about the presence of Jesus in the Lodge.

Albert Pike speaks of Lucifer as the Light-bearer! "Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls?"(25) The Bible identifies Lucifer as being Satan and an angel of light. According to Paganism, Lucifer is the bearer of the light that enlightens man's understanding of his Higher Self or his "God Self." Masonic author Foster Bailey says it this way, "Masonry therefore, is not only a system of morality, inculcating the highest ethics through which result, if followed, the conscious unfolding of divinity. . . . It portrays the recovery of man's hidden divinity and its bringing forth into the light . . . the power to achieve perfection latent in every man." Masonry purports to be the Light that awakens man's mind to his perfection and ultimate divinity.

The question that begs to be answered by each Mason is simply this: "Which Light' will he follow, the true Light of Christ or the dimly lit light of the Lodge?"

astral_girl

21-03-2008, 11:27 PM

i find theres some rather heavy contridictions-
with christians being freemasons...............
anyone else think this too.........:confused:

thelonious

22-03-2008, 12:56 AM

Masonic Light and Darkness http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/masonry.html
"Freemasons are emphatically called the Sons of Light, because they are in possession of the true meaning of the symbol; while the profane or uninitiated who have not received this knowledge are said to be in darkness."(21) In other words, the Mason has been delivered from the darkness into the light and is elevated above those who have not received the initiation into the degrees and mysteries of Freemasonry.

From an idealistic standpoint, this may be true, but not in a practical sense. Initiation *may* lead one to enlightenment, but Freemasonry, nor any other initiatory society, can actually *guarantee* enlightenment. All such societies can do is set up the proper conditions through ritual, which is an ancient manner of communicating wisdom. However, no one can predict if the actual ritual of initiation will produce effect. In the end, true initiation is an internal process.

According to Pike, "Masonry is a search after light."(23) The question that one must ask oneself is, What is the source of this "Light" that contemporary Freemasonry is based on? Pike goes on to tell us that the light of Masonry is based on the Kabalah, or Jewish mysticism. For the Christian this is indeed a difficulty, because the Christian cannot accept the occult beliefs of the mystics. The Bible tells us that "truth" or "light" can only be found in God's Word.

It is not true that Christians cannot accept "occult beliefs of mystics". In reality, the most notable of Christian fathers were mystics. It is only in more modern times that Christianity has drifted into materialism and commercialism. It was originally a mystic faith of the spirit.

The Lodge considers the Christian as being profane or unworthy to receive the "Light" of the Craft.

This is obviously not the case. It is disproven by the fact that most Masons are adherents of the Christian faith. If Freemasonry considered Christians unworthy, they could not be initiated. It is also necessary that the Fraternity was actually founded by Christians, and for centuries (until 1717) only Christians were admitted. After 1717, the fraternity began accepting men for membership of all religions.

The Bible identifies Lucifer as being Satan and an angel of light.

Actually, this is not true. The word "Lucifer" appears nowhere in the original Bible. It is a Latin word meaning "Light Bearer", and was a title that the Romans gave to the Greek god Apollo.

When St. Jerome translated the book of Isaiah into Latin, he inserted "Lucifer" as a play on words. It wasan inside joke directed against one of his rivals in the church, St. Lucifer of Cagliari. The passage in question refersto Tigleth-pilaser, king of Babylon, not an angel or Satan.

In "Morals and Dogma" Pike was actually quoting another writer, the French author Eliphas Levi. Levi was questioning why the church chose a name that meant "bearer of light" to represent their devil.

Regardless, most of it boils down to personal religion opinion. I find much that is good in Christianity. I also find a lot of superstition, hypocrisy, and absurdity in it.

the guy in pink

22-03-2008, 01:10 AM

.
Albert Pike speaks of Lucifer as the Light-bearer! "Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls?"(25)
The Romans knew the Bright evening star as Venus, and when it appeared in the morning they called it Lucifer, the bringer of light. When the planet Lucifer appeared in the sky day was not long in following.

godhelpme

24-03-2008, 05:11 PM

meridiansun

24-03-2008, 05:55 PM

hi,

i would like to ask you how you would explain the number of freemasons that actively bully/threaten and generally victimise me. I ask you because i read about freemasons supporting good moral conduct. If for example, many freemasons from various lodges conduct victimisation against one person, what do you believe is going wrong?

I guess i'm making a major assumption in that there are no conditions under which such actions would be permissable or enforced. In which case, there is atleast a failure of individual masons to conduct their own moral judgement, in as much as behaving correctly themselves, regardless of masons around them.

Somehow the result of which seems to be a collective of immoral attitude or actions, counter to the perceived ethics (i say perceived as i have no understanding of your beliefs) of a moral group of men. If freemasonry is such a respected code, why do the individuals not stand up to protect it?

As an outsider it becomes increasingly difficult to believe your principles are sound, when basic respectful behaviour is flouted.
i think that's covered what i wanted to say.
Freemasonry tries to "make good men better", so what you are saying does not sound like masonic conduct. Without knowing exactly what is happening in your situation, it's difficult to comment. Freemasonry is such a large global collection of people from all different walks of life that it will, unfortunately, attract those who end up giving Freemasonry a bad name. It's unfortunate that this is picked up on and people in general, not necessarily yourself, see all Freemasons as being this way inclined.

It's like comparing religious wars in the Middle East and saying that all jews, or all muslims are warmongers or terrorist. It simply isn't the case.

the guy in pink

24-03-2008, 06:18 PM

hi,
i would like to ask you how you would explain the number of freemasons that actively bully/threaten and generally victimise me. I ask you because i read about freemasons supporting good moral conduct. .

How about giving some examples of this victimisation ?
It is difficult to explain what is not known. Good moral conduct is the essence of Freemasonry.

thelonious

24-03-2008, 06:20 PM

godhelpme

24-03-2008, 07:03 PM

Who is it that you are claiming are bullying / victmizing you? What are they doing? If they are Masons, what Masonic Lodge do they belong to?

i'm sorry but i don't think it prudent to state my individual circumstances.
I simply stated a situation involving the masons, treat it as a hypothetical if you wish, which raises interesting issues and i thought you might like to answer some of the wider issues. You did say you would try and answer peoples questions, and my circumstances involve the freemasons, as unlikely, unpalatable or unwelcome as it may be. The issues are real however.

I can genuinely state this as the behaviour of known freemasons to me. It doesn't really matter what they do for the purposes of my questions, but lets call it a wide range of actions designed to be destructive to my well being and natural life course. I'm not talking about the actions of kids, but middle aged and even elderly men who should no better. It's a coordinated act of persecution.

So i'll repeat my points again:
If for example, many freemasons from various lodges conduct victimisation against one person, what do you believe is going wrong?

I guess i'm making a major assumption in that there are no conditions under which such actions would be permissable or enforced. In which case, there is atleast a failure of individual masons to conduct their own moral judgement, in as much as behaving correctly themselves, regardless of masons around them. The result of which seems to be a collective of immoral attitude or actions, counter to the perceived ethics (i say perceived as i have no understanding of your beliefs) of a moral group of men. If freemasonry is such a respected code, why do the individuals not stand up to protect it?

I'm not trying to be aggresive or berate masons, feel free to pass on what you don't feel comfortable answering. I have however raised questions about freemasonry and i'm interested to know what you think about it.

mike martin

24-03-2008, 08:04 PM

I'm only going to pick up 2 small points in what you have written, you will understand why if you actually read them:

Albert Pike speaks of Lucifer as the Light-bearer! "Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls?"(25)

In common with other Anti-masons who use Pike as some kind of authority (in itself a very shaky proposition) you are dealing with an edited quote from Morals and dogma. So I shall give you the whole paragraph as Pike wrote it:

Page 321 Morals and Dogma:

The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. Lucifer. The Light Bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendours intolerable blinds feeble sensual, or selfish souls? Doubt it not! For traditions are full of Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed Plato and Philo also, were also inspired.

Just these words alone completely change the meaning of what is being said, suffice it to say the rest of the pages of the Chapter put it into an entirely different context. To me, Pike is merely questioning whether Lucifer is a fitting name to give the Adversary.

The Bible identifies Lucifer as being Satan and an angel of light.
This is neither accurate or true.

A totally independent (of Freemasonry) source, The Catholic Encyclopedia says this:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09410a.htm

Lucifer
(Hebrew helel; Septuagint heosphoros, Vulgate lucifer)

The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.

The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, "to lament"; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1:14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).

This shows that it is only modern day people who having revised Bibical history claim that "Lucifer" is a name of the Adversary, it was in fact a descriptive term used for several characters in the Bible.

Mike

mike martin

24-03-2008, 08:06 PM

i'm sorry but i don't think it prudent to state my individual circumstances.
I simply stated a situation involving the masons, treat it as a hypothetical if you wish, which raises interesting issues and i thought you might like to answer some of the wider issues. You did say you would try and answer peoples questions, and my circumstances involve the freemasons, as unlikely, unpalatable or unwelcome as it may be. The issues are real however.

I can genuinely state this as the behaviour of known freemasons to me. It doesn't really matter what they do for the purposes of my questions, but lets call it a wide range of actions designed to be destructive to my well being and natural life course. I'm not talking about the actions of kids, but middle aged and even elderly men who should no better. It's a coordinated act of persecution.

So i'll repeat my points again:
If for example, many freemasons from various lodges conduct victimisation against one person, what do you believe is going wrong?

I guess i'm making a major assumption in that there are no conditions under which such actions would be permissable or enforced. In which case, there is atleast a failure of individual masons to conduct their own moral judgement, in as much as behaving correctly themselves, regardless of masons around them. The result of which seems to be a collective of immoral attitude or actions, counter to the perceived ethics (i say perceived as i have no understanding of your beliefs) of a moral group of men. If freemasonry is such a respected code, why do the individuals not stand up to protect it?

I'm not trying to be aggresive or berate masons, feel free to pass on what you don't feel comfortable answering. I have however raised questions about freemasonry and i'm interested to know what you think about it.

OK understanding that you don't want go into detail, can you tell me how you know these people are Masons?

Mike

godhelpme

24-03-2008, 09:18 PM

mike martin

24-03-2008, 10:15 PM

having lived, worked and socialised in the same area for many years i have become aware of a percentage of the masons. Also I think the secrecy thing is a little wide of the mark, as many have said, and i think it is an individuals choice as to how much they hide their inclusion.

Surely you can be a little more specific than that? I mean you have asserted that you are being bullied by Masons. I'm only asking how you know they are, in fact, Masons.

To me this is quite an important first step in addressing your issues.

The next (once I am certain that they are Masons) is to find out why on earth different Lodges (as you've stated) would be picking on you.

In the meantime I can only state that there exists no valid reason why Freemasonry should actually single you out for anything (let alone bullying), unless you've been doing things to them first of course.

Mike

mwgdrwg

25-03-2008, 12:54 AM

howmuch did it financially cost you to join in the begining?
please dont answer with the usual masonic time wasting lies.
a lot of people know the truthful answer to this question.

mike martin

25-03-2008, 08:44 AM

howmuch did it financially cost you to join in the begining?
please dont answer with the usual masonic time wasting lies.
a lot of people know the truthful answer to this question.

When I first joined my Mother Lodge, 14 years ago, it cost £150 per year, now it has gone up to £250 but that's London costs for you.

My second Lodge is in Kent and it costs £160 a year and my Royal Arch Chapter costs £60 per year.

I'd be very interested to hear about your claimed "truthful answer"!

Mike

chestnutlodge

25-03-2008, 11:17 AM

howmuch did it financially cost you to join in the begining?
please dont answer with the usual masonic time wasting lies.
a lot of people know the truthful answer to this question.

You asked the same question to me and Mike has given a similar answer to me. You told me I was a liar. As a lot of people know the truth and we dont please, as asked before, show how we are liars?

godhelpme

25-03-2008, 12:35 PM

Surely you can be a little more specific than that? I mean you have asserted that you are being bullied by Masons. I'm only asking how you know they are, in fact, Masons.

To me this is quite an important first step in addressing your issues.

The next (once I am certain that they are Masons) is to find out why on earth different Lodges (as you've stated) would be picking on you.

In the meantime I can only state that there exists no valid reason why Freemasonry should actually single you out for anything (let alone bullying), unless you've been doing things to them first of course.

Mike

most are people i know fairly well, their families and friends etc, and it is just another aspect of their lives that i've come to know about. It's not treated like a dark secret, they are sometimes quite open about it.

i find this very disturbing:
In the meantime I can only state that there exists no valid reason why Freemasonry should actually single you out for anything (let alone bullying), unless you've been doing things to them first of course.

so are you saying there are protocols or whatever you want to call them for singling people out by masons?

eternal_spirit

25-03-2008, 12:39 PM

Freemasonry: (http://whale.to/b/33.html) Freemasonry is a world-wide secret society masquerading as a benign fraternal brotherhood organized for the purpose of “doing good.” The lower level members believe that those belonging to the “craft” actually worship the God of the Bible. Only at the 33rd degree do the members learn that the “God” the Masons worship is Lucifer!
Masonic orders have contained the most influential men in many governments, and virtually every Occult order appears to have Masonic roots.
Sovereign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite, Albert Pike, author of the classic treatise of the Masons, Morals and Dogma, has stated: “Masonry. . . conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, and uses false explanations (lies) and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead.”
“Yes, Lucifer is God. . . The Masonic Religion should be, by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferian doctrine.” General Albert Pike, 33, Sovereign Grand Commander of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Free Masonry, USA
“One of the unheralded and least known facts about Freemasonry and the Masonic Lodge is its Jewish origins and nature. The religion of Judaism, based on the Babylonian Talmud, and the Jewish Kabala, an alchemical system of magic and deviltry, form the basis for the Scottish Rite’s 33 ritual degree ceremonies.” Masonic Jews Plot to Control the World, Texe Marrs
Its Jewish origins and nature are further demonstrated by the following: 1) It uses only the Old Testament for saying oaths. Use of the New Testament is forbidden, and, 2) It prohibits the mention of the name of Jesus Christ within the lodge.
The Jewish Tribune of New York, on October 28, 1927, stated; “Masonry is based on Judaism. Eliminate the teachings of Judaism from the Masonic Ritual and what is left?”
The well known rabbi, Isaac Wise, was emphatic when he concluded: “Freemasonry is a Jewish establishment, whose history, grades, official appointments, passwords, and explanations are Jewish from beginning to end.”
Freemasonry - the worship of Lucifer - will be the ultimate One World Religion soon imposed on the entire world by the One World Government.
Gentiles – Goyim: The word Gentiles has nothing to do with ethnicity even though today, it is a word used by cultural “Jews” as a derogatory term for “non-Jews.” It means beast, cattle, or sub-human.
The Bible translators have mistranslated the word nations , a term that refers to the people who did not know the one true God of the Bible, by using the word, Gentiles. The nations referred to “unbelievers” who worshipped many pagan gods.
The “believers” or worshipers of the one true God, were called Iudeans or Judeans, often improperly translated “Jews”, as opposed to the nations or “unbelievers” who worshiped many different gods.
The terms Judeans (incorrectly translated “Jews”) and Gentiles (nations) used in the Bible, are not terms of ethnicity, they referred respectively to those who were either “believers” in the true God, or “unbelievers.”
Again, this point needs to be emphasized. In the Bible, these terms have nothing to do with ethnicity. They apply to those who follow the God of heaven and the Bible, or those who don’t!

http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/